"The physical city-states of Allanak and Tuluk will now codedly reflect the supremacy they enjoy versus unfriendly magickers acting against the city-states. These changes reflect each city-state's general strengths against such odds. If you should be in the know as a templar of either city-state, inquire with clan staff. If you are intending to act against said defenses, find out IC. If you notice anything that appears to be a bug, please file it in the request tool so that we may address it as soon as possible."
This topic is to discuss these changes, but understand we will not be addressing the specific protections granted in each of the city-states! As one can imagine that is something that one would have to find out IC.
Good lord.. Not 24 hours ago I argued that Tuluk was codedly helpless, and now this happens. Awesome.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ussCHoQttyQ
What does this mean? ???
Tuluk gicks can't harm Nakkis and vice versa?
Quote from: senseofeven on June 30, 2014, 09:20:30 AM
What does this mean? ???
Tuluk gicks can't harm Nakkis and vice versa?
More like if you happen to be a magicker (regardless of where you are from), pitting yourself against a city-state in a coded fashion (i.e. casting spells) is going to result in a more realistic coded response (i.e., we are no longer required to animate heavily to provide what we on staff think is a realistic world response to these sorts of scenarios).
However, it is quite a bit more complex than "lol, y u no cast?"
Does this apply to just the city proper or the surrounding areas as well?
Has Luir's and Storm already got their preparations, or are these coming next?
Also, if this can be discussed, is Tuluk generally clueless but still points swords, or are they more like sudden mad dogs frantically trying to stamp out the threat? Both? I imagine traveler types like Byn would eventually know this difference, if any.
Quote from: manonfire on June 30, 2014, 09:47:25 AM
Does this apply to just the city proper or the surrounding areas as well?
This is something that you would have to find out in-game. It would probably be safe to say that if you're inside the walls of that city, you're inside the influence of that city.
Quote from: i like me some ham on June 30, 2014, 09:50:05 AM
Has Luir's and Storm already got their preparations, or are these coming next?
Nice try, Sand Lord.
Quote
Also, if this can be discussed, is Tuluk generally clueless but still points swords, or are they more like sudden mad dogs frantically trying to stamp out the threat? Both? I imagine traveler types like Byn would eventually know this difference, if any.
Neither.
Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Utep%20Sun%20ClanThe authority of the Templarate is backed by the Sun King and the abilities of the mind and body that He grants His Faithful servants.
The actual coded response is something you can discover in-game, however.
Sweet.
Huh.
Will hidden magickers in the city states have to adjust their play in any manner?
What I specifically want to know (but may be unable to ask) is whether using magick in such a way that it won't provoke the crime code, still provoke these city defenses?
a) will proper precautions against discovery make any difference whatsoever?
b) is this an added layer of challenge, or is this an instant-death scenario?
For example, I've had a gemmed mage using certain concealment abilities enter Tuluk; is this now impossible without meeting the mantis head?
What is there to discuss when you haven't told us anything?
(http://cdn2.listsoplenty.com/listsoplenty-cdn/pix/uploads/2010/09/Hungry-Baby-Birds-being-fed1.jpg)
Does this have anything to do with fixing the Crim Code from marking Gemmed Magickers as wanted in their own Temples when they cast an aggressive spell? (I doubt it, but I'm being hopeful)
It seems like this is just a reflection of what would be in place ICly, but was not codedly. City-states shouldn't be frantically scrambling jet-fighters against every magick attack within their despotic sorcerer-king fortress. Sounds like this just updates the code to reflect the reality IG.
A few questions:
1. If magickers from say Allanak want to plan attacks against parties within/surrounding Tuluk and coordinate with Staff, will this still be possible?
2. Are these defenses impregnable or just 'really bad news' for anyone who wants to try something alone?
3. In other words, if a large force of magickers attempted malarky against Tuluk, could they potentially succeed?
I hope that this extends to more than just the act of casting.
For example, if one has obviously visible magickal effects about their body, strutting their stuff (probably unintentionally, but still) past all the NPC soldiers...something should kick in.
I also hope templars get a command so they can exempt a magicker from these protections kicking in, for a certain amount of time, if they need said magicker to do something for them.
Quote from: Reiloth on June 30, 2014, 01:02:54 PM
It seems like this is just a reflection of what would be in place ICly, but was not codedly. City-states shouldn't be frantically scrambling jet-fighters against every magick attack within their despotic sorcerer-king fortress. Sounds like this just updates the code to reflect the reality IG.
Really? I had the opposite take away: that the City States will now scramble the fighter jets
automatically, without needing an Immortal to jump in to Lord Templar Oldface and expend time and resources fireballing Amos Potter.
Every time I've seen magick being used in the Cities it's always pretty serious shit.
Quote from: Jingo on June 30, 2014, 12:35:24 PM
Will hidden magickers in the city states have to adjust their play in any manner?
If you've been playing a hidden magicker and have questions, you can ask via the request tool.
Quote
What I specifically want to know (but may be unable to ask) is whether using magick in such a way that it won't provoke the crime code, still provoke these city defenses?
Depending on the situation, perhaps so. I would say it would be safe to use common sense.
For example, a gemmed mage in Allanak practicing their magick inside the city (in properly approved areas/etc just as before this change as you would IC)...they'll be fine.
A mage (gemmed or no) working their magick in Tuluk would be a dangerous scenario regardless. The city has a marked aversion to magick and it has certain resources at its command to make sure magick is dealt with. It will probably be harder to play a hidden magicker in Tuluk, but if you're already an enemy of Tuluk (such as an open mage, gemmed or otherwise, or defiler, or what-have-you), that probably doesn't faze you.
Quote from: Delirium on June 30, 2014, 12:35:41 PM
a) will proper precautions against discovery make any difference whatsoever?
Yes, taking proper precautions can make a difference.
Quoteb) is this an added layer of challenge, or is this an instant-death scenario?
Added layer of challenge. If you wish to employ magick against either city-state then you now are facing what would be a codedly realistic reflection of that scenario. It will probably be more difficult to play a "hidden magicker" in Tuluk, but still--not impossible.
Quote from: Dalmeth on June 30, 2014, 12:54:34 PM
What is there to discuss when you haven't told us anything?
The other questions mentioned here so far.
Quote from: JustAnotherGuy on June 30, 2014, 01:00:53 PM
Does this have anything to do with fixing the Crim Code from marking Gemmed Magickers as wanted in their own Temples when they cast an aggressive spell? (I doubt it, but I'm being hopeful)
I don't think this touches on that at all.
This is cool. I don't know what this is, exactly, but I know it's cool.
Unfortunately the majority of the changes to the code cannot be discussed in depth here on the GDB. Just as we cannot discuss the in's and out's of lock picking and which situations may end with which results, we cannot discuss the IC details of these changes here.
Rest assured we are not putting in malicious code that will create insta-death situations. We feel that the changes will more adequately represent the strength of the rulers in their respective cities. These are not meant to be new and sudden increases in power/attention/big brother etc scenarios from the Sorc Kings.
I love the "find out IC" part.
Takes mage to Tuluk....Cast fireball dude...A giant white pyramid of sand appears and falls on your head...Welcome to Armageddon!
So...That is what happens.
Goes and makes assassin.
Quote from: Reiloth on June 30, 2014, 01:02:54 PM
A few questions:
1. If magickers from say Allanak want to plan attacks against parties within/surrounding Tuluk and coordinate with Staff, will this still be possible?
Depends on the plan, so I guess that one will be up to the players/staff in question!
Quote2. Are these defenses impregnable or just 'really bad news' for anyone who wants to try something alone?
More the latter than the former.
Quote
3. In other words, if a large force of magickers attempted malarky against Tuluk, could they potentially succeed?
Define "large force."
I guess a good way to answer this is that no group of PCs alone can consider themselves (singly or all together) as anything close to powerful enough to provide a real challenge to either city-state, inside that city-state, and expect it to be a fair fight. That's not to say that damage will be avoided, that people are absolutely safe, that it is impossible to act against someone on "their terms" in "their stronghold". It's just going to be harder. As it should be--having magickal ability doesn't trump a thousand plus years of battling against, utilizing, or enslaving that very thing.
Does this mean it will be rarer to see visibly buffed magickers/gemmers waltz into the taverns to hang out?
That's pretty rare to begin with. Or at least, I've never actually seen it.
And if you are seeing that, I'd report it ICly and wish up to inform staff that someone is wet and glowing in a public place so they can have the populace react accordingly with screams, pitchforks and torches.
Without knowing particulars, all I can really say is it seems perfectly sensible. The cities shouldn't be any more or less vulnerable depending on which PC templars are available, for instance.
(As for the visible magicks thing, as far as I've seen that's really rare these days, and when it does happen it's more in the realm of careless mistakes and not defiance of the law.)
I like what I've read so far. I'm with it ... I don't think specifics would hurt here, but by the same token, judging by Staff replies, we understand that the response isn't just some token echo with a instant kill involved, so as long as one has the chance to react to the world's responses I'm with it.
As long as someone cautious, well prepared, and not attempting a suicidally direct assault on the city-state has a chance of achieving whatever subterfuge they're after, cool. If it's basically "lol, game over, you're busted", I'm on the fence, but it doesn't sound like that's the case.
In short, I hope that this has been managed in a way that will facilitate plots, instead of stymying them.
Anything that enforces realism in a playable way without requiring staff participation gets my ok.
Yes, and I should clarify: I'm 100% behind the idea of Tuluk having more teeth against mages.
I guess it's just difficult to decide whether I like this change without seeing the code in question, and frankly, rolling up a mage just to find out seems a little, well.... I'll refer you to XD's tongue-in-cheek but entirely relatable post. Mostly, I'm remembering how insanely difficult it was to actually push any ongoing, active, war-related plots. My primary concern is that this is a step backward, rather than forward, in supporting sustained conflict.
But I just don't know enough to decide, so I will trust in staff's judgement! I am a player. I know nothing, Jon Snow.
Quote from: Dresan on June 30, 2014, 02:22:57 PM
Does this mean it will be rarer to see visibly buffed magickers/gemmers waltz into the taverns to hang out?
If they're visibly buffed, they probably forgot to check and didn't realize they were visibly buffed. Or, for some other IC reason, they knew they were buffed but didn't realize their buffs were visible.
Even before this change - if you had seen a visibly buffed mage walk around the city, your character would have some kind of IC reaction, and nonchalance would likely not be that reaction. Even if *your* character was a mage too.
Quote from: Delirium on June 30, 2014, 04:45:53 PM
Yes, and I should clarify: I'm 100% behind the idea of Tuluk having more teeth against mages.
Yar, I am behind it for this reason if nothing else.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 30, 2014, 01:19:19 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on June 30, 2014, 01:02:54 PM
It seems like this is just a reflection of what would be in place ICly, but was not codedly. City-states shouldn't be frantically scrambling jet-fighters against every magick attack within their despotic sorcerer-king fortress. Sounds like this just updates the code to reflect the reality IG.
Really? I had the opposite take away: that the City States will now scramble the fighter jets automatically, without needing an Immortal to jump in to Lord Templar Oldface and expend time and resources fireballing Amos Potter.
Every time I've seen magick being used in the Cities it's always pretty serious shit.
The key word there is frantic. It seemed like, in the past, any tom-dick-or-jane Magicker could cause quite a ruckus in either city-state, purely because it was at a time when Staff weren't around to animate otherwise, or there wasn't code in place to make it impossible. So if it's just lining up the city-states with where they should be code-wise, it makes perfect sense to me.
Magickers shouldn't be able to waltz in / around Tuluk unless they are very powerful, and likely not for a very long period of time without drawing laser-sight beams on their heads. This includes if they are invisible/flying/whatever other magical effects allowed them to do things that were unbelievable, in consideration of the power base within the city-state.
Same in Allanak, except replace the laser-sight beams with dull-black-gem-beam. Pew pew!
Quote from: Nyr on June 30, 2014, 02:15:51 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on June 30, 2014, 01:02:54 PM
A few questions:
1. If magickers from say Allanak want to plan attacks against parties within/surrounding Tuluk and coordinate with Staff, will this still be possible?
Depends on the plan, so I guess that one will be up to the players/staff in question!
Quote2. Are these defenses impregnable or just 'really bad news' for anyone who wants to try something alone?
More the latter than the former.
Quote
3. In other words, if a large force of magickers attempted malarky against Tuluk, could they potentially succeed?
Define "large force."
I guess a good way to answer this is that no group of PCs alone can consider themselves (singly or all together) as anything close to powerful enough to provide a real challenge to either city-state, inside that city-state, and expect it to be a fair fight. That's not to say that damage will be avoided, that people are absolutely safe, that it is impossible to act against someone on "their terms" in "their stronghold". It's just going to be harder. As it should be--having magickal ability doesn't trump a thousand plus years of battling against, utilizing, or enslaving that very thing.
Well put!
Boo, hiss.
I foresee gickers testing this theory. Just a heads up, if you felt like touristing either Luir's or Tuluk and weren't sure which one to pick.
So theoretically, magick should still be working the same as it's always worked in Red Storm, Luir's Outpost and other civilized areas not part of the Allanaki Empire or Tuluki Dominion?
Depends on the magick and the situation.
Same thing being done to the allanaki farms? I imagine the npc copies are mostly the same anyway. The templars are unique. I wonder if that matters.
You'll have to learn that one in-game. Or rather, you could. And additionally, it really isn't something that matters--if you feel it is working incorrectly you can contact staff.
I'm too terrified to log in because of what I play. I don't know anything about this as everything about it is vague, and Armageddon has an absolutely unforgiving policy on forgiveness for death.
After having prodded around about this for a bit, I can no longer say I think these changes are good. Someaspects I do like, but ultimately I think it's a detriment to the game.
If you dress as a witch, will the system still work against you?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfKh80BHSnk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfKh80BHSnk)
Just kidding, ahahahahaha...
Quote from: Patuk on July 04, 2014, 05:42:15 PM
After having prodded around about this for a bit, I can no longer say I think these changes are good. Someaspects I do like, but ultimately I think it's a detriment to the game.
So far from what I have seen, there are some bugs that need fixing. Overall, as far as I can tell it is a serious nerf to certain types of gickers and not beneficial to the game.
Arm worked just fine for 20+ years without this change. So what was going so terribly wrong to make it necessary?
I've asked about it whilst wishing up about something else, receiving the reply that things are working as intended, so I'm going to assume there are no bugs and that the way things are now is intentional.
As for the reasoning behind all this.. I don't even know. It's one thing to make sure Amos the trollkrosian can't dash into the Tooth and massacre half of Tuluk's active players, but these changes go far, far beyond that. Harmful spells are not singled out. Magickers trying to wage war against the templarate aren't the only ones seeing a downside. Every citybound magicker without a gem in the game is severely penalised by this.
I really, really, really have no idea why these changes were made. The intent may be to make rogue magick something of the past, or maybe staff want to turn Red Storm into even more of a Magickville than it already is. I genuinely don't know. What I do know is that city-based magick is going to be a role filled by only the Gemmed. With how lacking in subtlety the new code is, I think people really are ought to be warned, as casting even a single spell inside any city's limits may spell your doom. I hate to be unable to elaborate on the details, as I really believe the gist would be common knowledge to any magicker, but because I want to keep my account I'll stay silent. At the very least, I think there needs to be a change to help_magick in order to reflect the new reality. For a line along the likes of this to be added would be enough: Due to their iron grip on their respective city-states, the templarate has extensive protections in place in order to keep hostile magick in force. Using magick will draw the militia's attention.
I'm not really getting it because I haven't seen the in-game changes. I was just sort of imagining if you had active, visibile spell effect on you it would incite crim-code.
Which really isn't that big of a deal. But I suppose there's more to it could be annoying.
God this vagueness is irritating.
I wish I could say more, too. All I can say is that the code is not so subtle. It doesn't discriminate between the harmful and the benign, the greater and the lesser feats of magick. Cast a spell inside city limits? You are now officially screwed. Good luck!
I ran into something that was a bug, at least so I was told.
Patuk, I went so far as to say this much here:
Quote from: Nyr on June 30, 2014, 01:58:51 PM
Quote from: Delirium on June 30, 2014, 12:35:41 PM
a) will proper precautions against discovery make any difference whatsoever?
Yes, taking proper precautions can make a difference.
I'll make an additional note to clarify: it makes
a difference. How much of one is debatable because you are still going to face a challenge casting magick at all in Tuluk. Tuluk does not like magickers and will be keenly watching for them. Allanak, on the other hand, actually has magickers working on its behalf; it has a more nuanced response that is not similar to the one in Tuluk. So: proper preparations will help, but depending on the situation and how you then act afterwards, you may not be able to realize those benefits.
Quote
Quoteb) is this an added layer of challenge, or is this an instant-death scenario?
Added layer of challenge. If you wish to employ magick against either city-state then you now are facing what would be a codedly realistic reflection of that scenario. It will probably be more difficult to play a "hidden magicker" in Tuluk, but still--not impossible.
I might've underplayed how big a layer of challenge it was because it was
already difficult to play a hidden magicker in Tuluk.
If you have specific feedback, we can definitely take it into account, but you'll probably need to contact us via request to let us know what your thoughts are. I agree, maybe the help magick helpfiles can be updated to reflect these coded changes.
For what it's worth, I disliked Tuluk's former manner of rooting out magick as well. The new defences aren't much of an improvement in my eyes, or really an improvement at all.
I'm glad to hear that Allanak hasn't quite so stringent a problem at least. It is comforting.
This one time, in Allanak, my Krathi left her temple on fire. Got all the way to the corpse pile. She should have been arrested for that. Though come to think of it, how's a Krathi gonna be subdued while on fire? More pondering is needed.
Arrows to knees. Urine to fire. Boom.
A looooong time ago, I played a hidden magicker in Tuluk.
At face value, they were an itinerant instrument player hopping to beg some coins with their playing in the various taverns. They had a horrible singing voice.
They were completely convinced that they would be found out if they tried practicing any sort of magick inside the city. So, they spent several weeks scouting out some "safe" places in the woods to do so. They eventually died on one such incursion, but I was pretty convinced they'd end up that way, anyway.
Now, I haven't played a rogue magicker in Tuluk since, but it always seemed to me that anyone who was a born Northerner, who was "cursed" with magick would grow up with the utter assurance that they would be found out if they did anything other than normal stuff while within the city limits..or even a good few leagues away. Rumors of what the Sun King's Faithful can do and all; or even just a sneaky Shadow Artist hanging out and observing you when you didn't expect it leading to your arrest/disappearance. I know no specifics but it seems like there is now zero chance, by the code, of effecting magick "unobserved" in Tuluk. Maybe when you cast, it sends out a "disturbance in the (psionic) force" that nearby Templars pick-up on leading to your automatic wanted state and description broadcast across the city.
If this is so..yeah, it sucks. I can see it being "realistic" as far as how Tuluk would have developed it's magickal defenses. But I also get the feelings from players of hidden magickers in Tuluk. This is a new change, whatever is said about IG factors or "realism." It is going to take some time to adjust our thinking and feelings and having a sudden, crippling, effect go in for an existing hidden mage just exasperates the hurt. They had a routine going, and now it's gone. Those who are effected may well feel targeted (in a way, they were) and it would take someone with a good deal of intestinal fortitude to take it in stride, let alone play it out as if it were all IG.
I can only council patience.
I would find such to be extremely odd, especially for Tuluk. Lets review the history.
Year 64 Age 19: Presumably whatever magickal defenses Tuluk has are insufficient to stop the Cataclysm.
Year 13 Age 20: Presumably whatever magickal defenses Tuluk has are insufficient to overcome Allanaki templars, or their gemmed, on Tuluk turf. At least initially.
Year 53 Age 20: Presumably whatever magickal defenses Tuluk had before this point are insufficient to prevent a defiler from having a key place in the government and using magick inside Tuluk.
These all point to citywide defenses against magick being fairly recent, at least for Tuluk. Unless they are using the thing from Year 13 Age 20.
I hope, at least, there is a difference in the protections that exist for elementalism to those that exist for sorcery, with the second being harder for the citystates to protect against.
The unfortunate side-effect of this change is that it takes witch-hunting out of the hands of the Templar PCs - the ones equipped to counter witchcraft. If the crimcode's going to do all the work for them, what are the Magic Police going to do, besides torture regular folk? This is MY tax money I'm paying towards these supernatural wizard cops!
Quote from: Twilight on July 05, 2014, 08:25:11 PM
I would find such to be extremely odd, especially for Tuluk. Lets review the history.
Year 64 Age 19: Presumably whatever magickal defenses Tuluk has are insufficient to stop the Cataclysm.
Cataclysm, with a capital C. What was that? Something big enough to kill more than seventy thousand people? You're probably going to be able to overcome the protections, were there any at this point in time in the first place. For that matter, there were practicing mages allowed in Tuluk at that time; the Cataclysm is when Tuluk said "ok guys, srsly, magick is bad!"
QuoteYear 13 Age 20: Presumably whatever magickal defenses Tuluk has are insufficient to overcome Allanaki templars, or their gemmed, on Tuluk turf. At least initially.
Mentioned here and elsewhere, but at least one point to note here would be that when Allanak is mobilized against something, it, too, has a pretty sizable advantage in the field as far as magick is concerned. I said earlier that PCs alone aren't going to be able to really pose a threat to any of these sorts of defenses; an actual occupation backed by dozens of templars, mages, and hundreds of soldiers would probably fall into the "bigger than PCs alone" category.
Additionally, you're assuming these protections were there then, but if they were, the above applies. As you say, Tuluk was mostly occupied, but not the Pyramid.
QuoteYear 53 Age 20: Presumably whatever magickal defenses Tuluk had before this point are insufficient to prevent a defiler from having a key place in the government and using magick inside Tuluk.
Dragonsthrall, not defiler, though the distinction isn't really that important. The Jihaen Order used to use magick and there were elementalist temples in Tuluk prior to the Catacylsm; of
course it allowed magick inside Tuluk! :)
QuoteThese all point to citywide defenses against magick being fairly recent, at least for Tuluk.
Interesting speculation!
I rather like the changes...whatever they are.
I have always had a problem with the idea of somebody playing a hidden mage in Tuluk, (less so in nak but I will explain that in a moment).
I have had a problem with the idea in Tuluk because no matter what reason the player has to do it, it always feels like an ooc construct because the player knew that there was no real way to be found out unless staff stepped in or they made a silly mistake...yet the PC should not know this, The PC, if raised in Tuluk would BELIEVE with all their heart and mind that the all knowing templarate would find them, there would be no thought of "Oh I can hide it." Other reasons as well, but that is the main one.
Now in Nak, being a hidden mage...Eh, my thoughts on that is, First as a PC, the thought should not be so much "I can hide this." But more "I will act normal as long as I can." Knowing one day that gem will get slapped on them. From a Templar/city/staff side I just always figured they were like "Well, We have enough gemmed right now anyway...we will grab up those that think they are hidden when we need them."
So...if this current code actually represents this...GREAT.
Can we get any details at all? I'm actually afraid to manifest my unmanifested magicker because it seems like I'm going to lose my character during my first cast. All of these vagueries are really unhelpful when it already takes a slew of characters to find out what is and what is not possible.
If you are manifesting in a city where manifesting is allowed (ie Allanak) then you need not fear for your life any more than you would have in the past. If you're manifesting in Tuluk where magick is illegal then you will want to consider that environment and what the reaction will be should you be found out.
If you are playing a magicker and you wish to 'manifest' icly you can always put in a request to ask staff for guidance and assistance through that process. We cannot guarantee what will happen IC but we can give you some thoughts that are more relevant to whatever situation you are in at the time.
X-D your comment is pretty much on the mark.
For those that are playing magickers in game and feeling uncertain on the current situation please feel free to put in a request detailing your character and what you might what more info about, we are willing to accommodate your questions in this way.
Quote from: X-D on July 06, 2014, 07:33:30 PM
I have had a problem with the idea in Tuluk because no matter what reason the player has to do it, it always feels like an ooc construct because the player knew that there was no real way to be found out unless staff stepped in or they made a silly mistake...yet the PC should not know this, The PC, if raised in Tuluk would BELIEVE with all their heart and mind that the all knowing templarate would find them, there would be no thought of "Oh I can hide it." Other reasons as well, but that is the main one.
This is dumb imho.
I don't have a problem with the challenge of such a role. I have a problem when staff or players suggest the role is far too impossible for any and all, and should not even be attempted.
Quote from: Jingo on July 07, 2014, 12:12:52 AM
Quote from: X-D on July 06, 2014, 07:33:30 PM
I have had a problem with the idea in Tuluk because no matter what reason the player has to do it, it always feels like an ooc construct because the player knew that there was no real way to be found out unless staff stepped in or they made a silly mistake...yet the PC should not know this, The PC, if raised in Tuluk would BELIEVE with all their heart and mind that the all knowing templarate would find them, there would be no thought of "Oh I can hide it." Other reasons as well, but that is the main one.
This is dumb imho.
I don't have a problem with the challenge of such a role. I have a problem when staff or players suggest the role is far too impossible for any and all, and should not even be attempted.
He's saying the PC should 'know', not that it should be impossible. The Tuluki PC should be thinking it is, because the Tuluki PC has been raised their whole lives thinking that it should be.
Especially since, on a long enough time table, the successful infiltration of any given hidden magicker in Tuluk basically goes to 0.
None of them survive (that we know of). And that was BEFORE the change.
Was each new character (not player) coming along and thinking, 'I'm different! I can make it! There aren't any success stories to bolster my bravado, but I'm good enough. I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me.' Why wouldn't they instead assume they were going to die if they didn't GTFO, a conclusion which the evidence certainly seems to support?
Certainly I would have that that, as a character, in the Northlands, given the government's stance on magick.
If our intention was to say it was impossible to play a magicker in Tuluk we would have just banned magick roles in Tuluk. This is not the case.
But Adhira, a Tuluki PC would think that the Templars would catch them, wouldn't they? They would be in fear of Big Brother.
My Tuluki magicker sure thought that way. 6 months of sneaking out to the grasslands to practice, with a mindset of total paranoia, before she got caught. Sigh.
Exactly - a much different thing than casting in your apartment, right under the nose of your all knowing templarete ...
I'm not exactly grasping what you're saying 7DV. Seems like you're both agreeing?
I think its a nice addition.
Ironically, one of the few (like two or three) magickers I've managed to actually branch was a hidden magicker in tuluk. I don't think this addition would change anything in that regard especially since I took the sneaking out to the grasslands route too. It does feel just a tad bit twinky though. :P
I could be wrong but after reading the post carefully again it does sound like unless you are walking down the street and decide to blast someone with a fireball you'll be fine. Also, if its just an addition to the existing crim-code then its perfect. I mean i still hope a hidden magicker karthi deciding light someone on fire in the middle of the night in a dark alley would be able to get away with it. Then again...fireball in the middle of the night... maybe not.
Again its a nice coded addition, but if you ask me the best protection the city-states got was whiran being bumped to 6 karma. And thank goodness for that since i don't think this change would have helped against them either. :(
I think it's really cool that the staff are coding in things to enhance the realism of law enforcement in the cities. I have had some fun times dealing with such scripts before in one of the cities with a past PC. I have no idea what the new coded predictions are, but knowing there's something there should I ever provoke them is cool as hell.
Given that the gemmed are normally well informed of regulations concerning the use of their powers within Allanak, I find it unrealistic that there are restrictions which could result in severe punishment, that they are unaware of. Seems like each temple would know the limits for using their elements within the walls and the consequences for exceeding those limits.
I don't think this changes anything for the Gemmed
Quote from: HavokBlue on July 08, 2014, 09:46:14 PM
I don't think this changes anything for the Gemmed
It has done.
As long as you let us know what you're experiencing via request and discuss it with us, I think we can work it out or provide more details as needed.
Quote from: Nyr on July 09, 2014, 09:18:49 AM
As long as you let us know what you're experiencing via request and discuss it with us, I think we can work it out or provide more details as needed.
Scratch that. It was a bug:
Quote from: Norcal on July 05, 2014, 04:58:56 PM
I ran into something that was a bug, at least so I was told.
and it was hotfixed yesterday. So what happened was exactly what should have, I suppose:
we made a code change
we asked players to bring it up if they noticed something that seemed like a bug
you did so
we identified the incorrect behavior and fixed it
bug is gone
So no worries about punishment and stuff. It was a bug! :)
Thanks. Dead bug.
Without being in a position to 'find out IC' anytime soon, this seems sort of like the crim-code for magick to me. In my opinion, the crim-code stifles interaction and roleplay more than it adds to the game.
But without being allowed to be told details, and not being allowed to talk about said details even if I knew them, I'm not sure what sort of discussion can be had. I hope the changes work out.
Quote from: FreeRangeVestric on July 09, 2014, 11:41:22 AM
Without being in a position to 'find out IC' anytime soon, this seems sort of like the crim-code for magick to me. In my opinion, the crim-code stifles interaction and roleplay more than it adds to the game.
Crim-code is a great analogy.
Let's hypothetically...take away crim-code and
do nothing else...and extrapolate from there what the likeliest scenario might be if we were to do such a thing and maintain the kind of game we wish to maintain.
If we took away crim-code and did nothing else, the game (or at least the city-states, and without crim-code, it may as well be the whole game as city-states mean much less) would be run by those with coded power. No, not actual social power, political power, or anything like that...pure coded power, because they can control life and death with few repercussions. Would that hypothetical scenario have more interaction and roleplay? Maybe it would. There definitely would be more interaction--people would constantly fear death at every turn in a city-state surrounded by soldiers that would not be able to do anything unless animated or controlled directly by a templar. The people that were active and that could avoid templars would simply control the city as a PC. Would there be more roleplay? Not sure about that, with no backstop of minimal protection or expectation of retaliation, it's more probable that roleplay would just take a backseat to hiding or grabbing up a posse to go with you everywhere you needed to go. Let's say for the sake of argument that there was more roleplay and that it wasn't stifled, it was boosted. The roleplay wouldn't be following any particular rules or anything like that...it would ignore the documentation in many cases, and the guy or gal with the bigger posse would win. OK, so staff would need to be doing a lot more in this scenario. Rather than driving the more political or larger world plots, we'd be doing a lot more smaller plots, and that might be good. What plots, though? Smaller plots like "let's get a posse together and go destroy this guy hiding in the 'rinth." Policing would have to be a lot more involved and we'd have to frequently revisit the "no harm" policy as we'd need to take a greater hand and more direct action on maintaining the balance of power. We'd probably need to step in and ask those players that were going to be breaking the law to be sure and wish up so that staff could animate to them breaking the law and make the world react properly. Even minor things like "hey, I'm going to go break into House Borsail with me and my rinky-dink thief" would require animation if we took that route. (If we ignore it, we have a juggernaut House that can't stop a piddly thief.) We'd have to draw the line somewhere, because we can't be around for every break-in, every murder, every theft. Even when that line was drawn, it would still leave many that need reaction. Whenever challenges arose from PCs, we would be considering by hand in a more time-intensive process exactly what should happen in response for different scenarios. We might even go so far as developing a matrix of responses so that staff animated responses to lawbreaking would be both consistent and realistic so that it wouldn't have to take up so much of our time deciding things case by case.
We could do that, true, and it would all have to be done in absence of a criminal code system, at least in this game.
Or...we could have an automated system that would respond when people broke the "law". Planning it from scratch and putting in as a backstop, it would start out simple. In some cases it might even seem a bit heavy-handed, but over time it would be revised to be more accurate. Staff would review it, addressing concerns from players that want to work out their crime activity within the way the system should be, without putting an undue burden on staff or other players. This would free up staff to liven up what said system/code provides rather than provide the entire response on their own. This would free up players to play characters in cities that could expect to have at least a modicum of safety, and an expectation that they could progress their own plots that were slightly more advanced than "kill other dude before he kills me." With crim-code, you can still project your own power, kill people, steal, etc, but you face the virtual power of the city-state you're in...because they outnumber and outmatch you. In the short run, you may accomplish your goal and even escape. In the long run, if you plan to duke it out, eventually, the crim code is going to get you and catch up with you. There are even some things that your PC can't do that are related to crim-code. Sure, you can try to break into House Borsail, but first you need to kill that guard. And then evade the crim-code that results from killing that guard. It seems nearly impossible, and logistically it may well be seemingly impossible. And that's fine, because no one PC can stand up to the might of a city-state, and few to no PCs should be able to stand up even to the might of one noble House, because that House has backing from the crim-code as well, existing in the same city-state.
Picture all of that first big paragraph about the hypothetical world without crim-code. Now replace everything about crime and coded power with magick and coded power. The absence of a coded backstop for magick was actually a lot closer to what the game faced up until these changes were implemented.
That's what these changes aim to address, leveling the playing field between those with coded power and those that should by all rights have
more power (or at least more of an expectation of protection)--
in that locale.
Holy Wall of Text, batman!
But yes, having a 'crime-code' for Magick, especially in Tuluk, seems like a great idea, and as it should be.
The kind of havoc a Whiran, especially off-peak when Staff probably around to respond in kind, can wreck on the city is pretty silly. Lived through a few of those scenarios, and was equally pleased when Whirans were moved up the Karma scale.
The reaction of the city-state to this shouldn't differentiate between 'benign' and 'offensive' magick. Magick is magick. If you're casting, you should be persecuted (or enslaved).
I'm divided on this.
On one hand, I like the power to be in the hands of the players (templars and their investigations, their use of spies, human resources and their mystical gifts).
On the other, any manifested Tuluki worth their salt would flee the state immediately, or turn themselves in out of a misguided attempt at mercy.
Nyr, that's a fine thought, and a great example, and I'm with you that far.
But we already have some complaints about the crim code and the way it handles everything in an all or nothing sort of way, with no grey areas or subdued responses to varying crimes. For instance, if I want to beat a person unconscious with my bare hands, I'll get the same response as I would get if I tried to stab them to death.
Now, I think there's a general consensus that that needs to, in time, evolve into a more faceted code of actions. I think the concern about the new magick-crim-code is the same. If a magick effect is detected or something else, for instance, in Allanak, will the Gemmer face the same response to be being surrounded by a horde of protective flies as they would for casting a fireball at a templar? If a Gemmer makes water in the street to give it to a beggar, is the level of response the same as if they tried to make the ground eat that beggar?
Reading over the entire thread, I think the only real concern for the code is having a mistake or some small action illicit the same response from the soldiers and templars as trying to cause mayhem.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 09, 2014, 10:41:45 PM
But we already have some complaints about the crim code and the way it handles everything in an all or nothing sort of way, with no grey areas or subdued responses to varying crimes. For instance, if I want to beat a person unconscious with my bare hands, I'll get the same response as I would get if I tried to stab them to death.
Do you have a better example? Do you really think that crim code should distinguish between assault and assault with intent to kill? Should it only take effect after someone is actually dead, and not interrupt fights that can easily end in death? Should the code in that case try to be smarter than roleplay and the player, making assumptions that may well not be true? Or is it actually not really that bad that the law will try to stop you from (god forbid) beating someone unconscious where they can see it?
Quote
Now, I think there's a general consensus that that needs to, in time, evolve into a more faceted code of actions. I think the concern about the new magick-crim-code is the same.
It already has. If you want to knock someone out there are places and times that you can do that much more easily; if you want to brawl you can do that in a place that it works. You can also hide from the law. The law also won't shoot to kill unless you try to flee them or have nosave arrest toggled wrong. Every one of those things (barring hiding) are improvements made over the years in order to make crim-code better.
Quote
If a magick effect is detected or something else, for instance, in Allanak, will the Gemmer face the same response to be being surrounded by a horde of protective flies as they would for casting a fireball at a templar?
Quote from: Nyr on June 30, 2014, 01:56:17 PM
Quote
What I specifically want to know (but may be unable to ask) is whether using magick in such a way that it won't provoke the crime code, still provoke these city defenses?
Depending on the situation, perhaps so. I would say it would be safe to use common sense.
For example, a gemmed mage in Allanak practicing their magick inside the city (in properly approved areas/etc just as before this change as you would IC)...they'll be fine.
QuoteIf a Gemmer makes water in the street to give it to a beggar, is the level of response the same as if they tried to make the ground eat that beggar?
See above, we covered this already. As Adhira says we aren't going to go through every possible scenario. If you're a gemmer things are going to work almost exactly as before, in Allanak, with a few exceptions that (at this time) we feel make sense.
Quote from: Nyr on July 10, 2014, 09:01:28 AM
Do you have a better example? Do you really think that crim code should distinguish between assault and assault with intent to kill?
After thinking about this for another hour or so, I came up with some scenarios in which it would be nice to have this distinction. OK, so maybe I had a bad example of you having a bad example :D
edit to add: still stuck on this, it does have some issues, one of which might be the kicker that would keep it from being changed, but it's a neat idea
I'm sorry, man.. I just now saw this. I'll respond better tonight. I'm on my phone and at work right now.
ermagerd, never fear - Nyr is here! I love this idea. Oh how I love the idea of nonlethal magick having a chance at a time and a place, sort've, in Allanak.
Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about magick, I was talking about crim-code there for the example 7DV provided. It was a tangent.
Actually, in allanak at least, I can see this "Should it only take effect after someone is actually dead, and not interrupt fights that can easily end in death?" As fitting.
If mundanes have visible magick on them, will the crimcode treat them exactly as if they were rogue? I imagine some gemmers would know this.
What brought this up was the fact that I did this one time about four years ago and nothing happened.
Quote from: i like me some ham on July 10, 2014, 04:32:10 PM
If mundanes have visible magick on them, will the crimcode treat them exactly as if they were rogue? I imagine some gemmers would know this.
What brought this up was the fact that I did this one time about four years ago and nothing happened.
Find out IC. Honestly most of your questions have been such that they could be answered by reading the announcement.
We may want to put the crim-code discussion elsewhere (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47697.0.html). Again, I apologize, it was a tangential remark I made, and while coming up with ideas to make it better = absolutely awesome, it also doesn't mean it is easy at all to implement. The amount that Nyr likes something does not make it happen faster (or poop code would've existed in 2007) or at all (actual orbital space vestric platform code that randomly loads up said platform to kill PCs that meet x requirements [must be alone], only once every year or so RL, in such a ridiculous way that no one would ever believe it happened--but it also takes the body and we rez the PC automatically, back in the same spot, once they log back on, making players go crazy one at a time each year).
Yeah, Nyr, I thought about making it a different topic and then didn't. My bad, too.
Quote from: Nyr on July 11, 2014, 09:31:23 AM
We may want to put the crim-code discussion elsewhere (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47697.0.html). Again, I apologize, it was a tangential remark I made, and while coming up with ideas to make it better = absolutely awesome, it also doesn't mean it is easy at all to implement. The amount that Nyr likes something does not make it happen faster (or poop code would've existed in 2007) or at all (actual orbital space vestric platform code that randomly loads up said platform to kill PCs that meet x requirements [must be alone], only once every year or so RL, in such a ridiculous way that no one would ever believe it happened--but it also takes the body and we rez the PC automatically, back in the same spot, once they log back on, making players go crazy one at a time each year).
The space vestric space station thing happened to my character Zoan once, swear on Christ. I found a Drovian sword and had to hard-quit due to no quit room. I logged in the next day in the Gaj, wielding the blade, only now it was bloodied.
Having different automated defense mechanisms for Allanak and Tuluk (against magickers) - is one thing.
I've noticed that there are some changes to the way spells work (or don't work). I've put in a query via the request tool - just in case it's a bug.
However, if some spells are gonna work differently within the confines of the Cities, or if they're not gonna work totally - can we please get a head's up? I know we _can_ "find out ICLY" - but that'd mean trying out all spells within the Cities, and hope the "conditions" for all the spells are properly met - to do a full and proper trial.
I'd really appreciate if Staff could compile a short note highlighting changes in the way spells work/dont work - within the Cities, so those players who're playing magickers don't end up getting unpleasant surprises in an emergency. Players who're currently playing magickers could put in a request via the tool - and ask staff for the note.
Again - I'm not asking for what sort of defenses have been introduced - those we can find out ICLY - at our own risk and peril. I'm just asking for changes in the way spells which used to work in the Cities (before the changes) - so we know what to expect.
From an IC viewpoint - these changes have probably been in existence since a long time in either of the Cities - and so - magickers living in them - would probably be aware of how spells work differently outside the City walls and within the Cities.
--EDITED TO ADD--
On a side note - would it be fair to ask Staff to spell out what is the exact boundary for the "physical" City States of Allanak and Tuluk - i.e. which areas are included and which arent - in the purview of these changes? Is this change going to affect just the area within the main gates on either side of each city? Will some outlying "areas" under the command of each of the City's also be included? Will some of the seedier areas be excluded?
Your head's-up was the post saying things changed, we did ask for players to submit any requests if they noticed bugs (or what they thought were bugs). The ones reported so far have been fixed. In your specific case, this is working as intended, though maybe the message to PC could be more specific. I'll respond to your request to give you a bit more detail.
Highlighting the way spells work/don't work: we did that here, in this thread, but only with broad strokes. In general, if you're gemmed, everything works the way it did before. The changes across the board are along (what we on staff feel are) common sense lines. If you are a magicker, gemmed or not, and casting a spell, ask yourself: What is it that this spell is intended to do? Where is it that I am casting it? If you disagree with how it is working then you disagree with how staff has implemented it...which is fine, as there are bound to be some disagreements with any code implementation! All we can do at this point is let you know if it is working as intended, and in this case, it is.
What is the physical boundary? Find out IC. Or not, and just use common sense, and report if you think you see a bug, like you have done! :)
Just gonna point out the the level of specificity made in this thread and announcement is misleading. The rules were changed drastically to make some concepts completely unplayable.
Quote from: Jingo on September 21, 2014, 11:57:11 PM
Just gonna point out the the level of specificity made in this thread and announcement is misleading. The rules were changed drastically to make some concepts completely unplayable.
I've made some changes to the "help magick" helpfile as a result of some things that staff have posted in this thread, making them more clear.
http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Magick
So it's like much other IC information in the game. You have to "buy" it with string of dead characters. So be it.
I have the impression we won't be seeing many more (edit: PC) rogue magickers though, that they'll be about as isolated as sorcerers were.
Quote from: Eyeball on January 01, 2015, 01:07:13 PM
So it's like much other IC information in the game. You have to "buy" it with string of dead characters. So be it.
I have the impression we won't be seeing many more (edit: PC) rogue magickers though, that they'll be about as isolated as sorcerers were.
The change was implemented the end of June. The last post in the thread was entered the end of September. There've been rogue magickers since - whether you have seen them or not pretty much depends on whether or not they made themselves available for you to see.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 01, 2015, 01:24:01 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on January 01, 2015, 01:07:13 PM
So it's like much other IC information in the game. You have to "buy" it with string of dead characters. So be it.
I have the impression we won't be seeing many more (edit: PC) rogue magickers though, that they'll be about as isolated as sorcerers were.
The change was implemented the end of June. The last post in the thread was entered the end of September. There've been rogue magickers since - whether you have seen them or not pretty much depends on whether or not they made themselves available for you to see.
I didn't say there would be no rogue magickers, Lizzie, I said they'd be isolated. More isolated than ever.
Quote from: Lizzie on January 01, 2015, 01:24:01 PM
Quote from: Eyeball on January 01, 2015, 01:07:13 PM
So it's like much other IC information in the game. You have to "buy" it with string of dead characters. So be it.
I have the impression we won't be seeing many more (edit: PC) rogue magickers though, that they'll be about as isolated as sorcerers were.
The change was implemented the end of June. The last post in the thread was entered the end of September. There've been rogue magickers since - whether you have seen them or not pretty much depends on whether or not they made themselves available for you to see.
Bolded for emphasis.
Six months after the implementation, and you're concluding that "they'll be about as isolated as sorcerers were."
It's probably not a good idea to discuss on the forum whether or not your conclusion is correct, since it's within the last six months and is current. I was trying to be subtle about saying that but I guess I fail at Tuluk RP :)
This was a topic for discussion about this coded change. This has been in place for a while, and while it will change in the future as we adjust the code, discussion seems to be over. Locking the thread.