With many posters feeling this doesn't lessen the grind, and Dresan's idea for gains, perhaps something else is also worthy of consideration?

Maybe a decent idea would be to take the timer reduction away from secondary stats, and replace it with an increased skill gain based on said stats? A time reduction is nice for very busy/active players, but for many, they won't really notice a change in the timer when they're not constantly working on skills, are out rping, attending this event, etc.

Say, as an example that a PC's sneak skill gains come in increments of 1 with each failure.

PC has an agility score of X, and each time they fail now, that X translates to additional gains. Say that X is a .25 increase, (with higher values meaning more?) making a failure now a 1.25 increase in the sneak skill for each fail within the timer.

This lets people get more out of their skill ups, without trying to work around timers to level as quickly as possible. The timers stay the same, but the gains increase, making a notable difference without impacting play preferences.

Quote from: Dresan on April 22, 2024, 10:17:35 PMJust a quick summary of thoughts:

1. As its been said above this makes wisdom more of a dump stat. For some ideas how to make wisdom more desirable and just some ideas on stats in general to improve mundane selection (especially in this setting) see the following threads: Wisdom and Discussion on stats

2. This does nothing to fix skill grind. I recommend just doubling the learning gains at the beginning of the season, then upping that to times X5 at the 50% mark of the season, and then upping that further to X10 learning gains around the 85% mark of the season. One thing the game is missing is a way to keep the player-base coming back especially as a season ends and your character dies. I think from experience we've seen once a game is closing people just stop logging in, doubly so if their character died. Slowly upping skill gains through the season would help with that.

3. Ultimately the main concerns with learning skills too quickly is often centered around combat. More so these days since the natural weaknesses of heavy combat classes (like the scary poisons) have become harder to pull off over time due to changes in the game. I think by solving that first as discussed here: Combat, it'll be easier to improve skill gains across the board without suddenly ending up with combat juggernauts everywhere.

Anything we can do to continue to encourage people to play mundane characters instead of mages/high karma options is strongly recommended as well.

Absolutely fantastic post, with suggestions that really attempt to solve The Grind. The current proposed changes simply don't, and in ways I'd even argue exacerbate them.

Quote from: Roon on April 22, 2024, 09:53:16 PMThere should be no such thing as characters who have godlike stats, or crappy stats, through sheer luck. Each race should have a fixed pool of total stats, and then some degree of randomness can determine their exact distribution. That leaves plenty of room for characters to be different, but you never just get shafted or handed a character that's objectively superior.

It's a drum I've bashed since I've started playing. The complete RNG in character creation stats feels like a relic of a bygone age and there are good reasons why modern day rpgs, both tabletop, text-based and any other type of roleplaying game have pretty much completely removed RNG from character creation. Sure there are still some stragglers, but the most popular ones have completely gotten rid of it. Even old editions of Dungeons and Dragons had stat arrays as an alternative to rolling dice for your stats.

I like the proposed changes to combat and HP, but only if they also apply to critters/npcs, because I know it's largely a RNG game but I swear it feels like NPC animals and the like once they get to critical/near death, they get a resurgence or something. It's messed me up more than once. And we already see disparities causing big lethality with stuff like how npcs can charge in and reel lock you quicker than you can even respond to seeing something enter the room.

Just a quick summary of thoughts:

1. As its been said above this makes wisdom more of a dump stat. For some ideas how to make wisdom more desirable and just some ideas on stats in general to improve mundane selection (especially in this setting) see the following threads: Wisdom and Discussion on stats

2. This does nothing to fix skill grind. I recommend just doubling the learning gains at the beginning of the season, then upping that to times X5 at the 50% mark of the season, and then upping that further to X10 learning gains around the 85% mark of the season. One thing the game is missing is a way to keep the player-base coming back especially as a season ends and your character dies. I think from experience we've seen once a game is closing people just stop logging in, doubly so if their character died. Slowly upping skill gains through the season would help with that.

3. Ultimately the main concerns with learning skills too quickly is often centered around combat. More so these days since the natural weaknesses of heavy combat classes (like the scary poisons) have become harder to pull off over time due to changes in the game. I think by solving that first as discussed here: Combat, it'll be easier to improve skill gains across the board without suddenly ending up with combat juggernauts everywhere.

Anything we can do to continue to encourage people to play mundane characters instead of mages/high karma options is strongly recommended as well.

Quote from: Agent_137 on April 21, 2024, 04:44:05 PMThere are still mega fauna that best maxed PCs.  And groups. And many spells.    Yeah stealth and poison are no longer big threats, but to say a mundane max combat pc is unbeatable is far from accurate.

Mage subs are the problem. Now that there will be less, let's see how it goes.

While I agree mage subs have been a problem I think they have been problematic for a host of additional reasons.

Focusing on combat alone, if the reason they aren't OP is because of some critter in the middle of nowhere or magick which should be rare, and groups of people which are harder to encounter with a smaller player-base then I think all the more reason they the class should be brought inline with the mortality risks of other classes.

Again even stealth characters are weak outside of stealth, mages are weak when not spelled up(which should be visible if they are) and everything under mixed classes can die with just a strong gust of wind. If heavy combat classes had notable weaknesses, it would be easier to balance them out in other regards such as skill gains or giving them cool additions to their techniques.

I don't think that would do a whole lot. You already get to prioritize your stats at creation, so there's no need to swap them afterwards. They come out in the order you chose, although class and age can affect the final outcome. Swapping stats around doesn't address any of the problems, and would rarely serve any purpose anyway. Unless you opt not to prioritize for some reason, you don't get stat rolls that should warrant swapping. There's no such thing as prioritizing strength and then entering the game to find that you got low strength but high wisdom.

Unless you meant swapping back and forth at will throughout the character's life, in which case I'm highly doubtful that such a feature would ever be added to the game.

The problem was never that the game gives you stats that are the wrong way around. It's the fact that your overall rolls can be junk or amazing, and this has a significant impact on what a character is capable of. That impact only increases if multiple stats determine skill timers instead of just wisdom. There really isn't room for this level of randomness in a game that features both FFA PvP and an overwhelming emphasis on (and rewards for) living a long time. It's simply unhealthy for the game.

There should be no such thing as characters who have godlike stats, or crappy stats, through sheer luck. Each race should have a fixed pool of total stats, and then some degree of randomness can determine their exact distribution. That leaves plenty of room for characters to be different, but you never just get shafted or handed a character that's objectively superior.

In a better system, you might roll...

17 14 12 7
14 13 13 10
19 16 7 6

But not...

19 17 17 15

or

14 9 8 7

I've been thinking about the shops that characters access between character approval and actually entering the IC part of the world.

Am I wrong in remembering that you can see other characters there, if they happen to be in the shops at the same time? Because I feel like it's likely that there will be multiple characters shopping at the same time, since we'll have a bunch of new characters approved the same day, all pointing to Allanak.

If characters can see each other in there, I feel like it might be a good idea if they can't.  Mainly for the benefit of new players I guess, but also because it's more fun to see new short descriptions in character.

Similar to desert elves hide sneak skills in the desert give
City Elves the same (if they don't already get it, My city elves
guild always had started with both). Also give them
palm/plant/steal automagically too if they are to stay in line
with current documentation.

Starting in certain cities grants bonuses to some starting skills.
Similar to the skills list for guilds and subguilds, I would like
some transparency in what starting location gives bonuses to what
skills.

Example:
Point Allanak - You feel more adept with clubs and have a more
natural affinity with working with rocks. The thick silt and
dry heat here also grants you a better than average start in
your life with foraging.
Are you sure you want to pick here?

(100% an example I don't know what skill bonuses are given if any
outside of some combat ones.)