The first set of changes for Poison went live today as per: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58086.msg1078862.html#msg1078862
I have a couple questions:
Can I now "brew" a poison mash for Grishen, and then apply that mash to weapons?
Can I now "brew" a poison vial for Grishen, and then apply that vial to weapons?
QuoteCan I now "brew" a poison mash for Grishen, and then apply that mash to weapons?
You have always been able to brew a mash for grishen. But no, mashes cannot be applied directly, they must be crafted into a paste form.
QuoteCan I now "brew" a poison vial for Grishen, and then apply that vial to weapons?
The 'vial' form of poison works on poisoning food/water. To poison a weapon you must get it in a paste form.
QuoteQuestion: I first get some grishen, and make a mash. Then i get more grishen and make paste?
You get the herbs to make the mash.
You then get the wild grishen poison item (say a animal gland) plus the mash to make the advanced stuff
QuoteQuestion: What about items we had poisoned with grishen before the update?
They're going to default to the lowest potency level
QuoteQuestion: For the mash for pastes, is it a specific old mash for the poison, a new mash; or any mash but certain ones REALLY help potency
The existing, old mash
QuoteQuestion: How do the existing poison affects stack up against the new advanced poisons?
It's a case-by-case basis. The old existing effect of grishen is a mid-range potency, so you can craft grishen poisons that are more dangerous than before, and less so.
With some of the others, such as peraine, the existing affect will be the absolute top-tier pinnacle of advanced poison crafting.
Will my level in Poisoning matter, or is it just a flat bonus for having the skill?
Ie: If I have Master poisoning, will it help more then if I had Novice?
Quote from: Fredd on July 10, 2022, 12:27:00 PM
Will my level in Poisoning matter, or is it just a flat bonus for having the skill?
Ie: If I have Master poisoning, will it help more then if I had Novice?
Your level will matter.
Do applied poisons degrade on weapons?
Quote from: Halaster on July 10, 2022, 12:04:13 PM
There will be no such thing as a total saving throw to completely resist a poison, but successfully saving against one will dramatically reduce its effects.
I just have a question about this part. I know this is still in the works but does this mean the failure we currently see when trying to apply poison to someone is going away? For example, you shoot your blowgun at a dwarf, it success hits, but currently there is a good chance this will have no effect at all, wasting your poison attempt. I hope it is going away, given how many more steps are now involved in aquiring and successfully crafting poison.
I also just have a comment about ingredients. My impression has always been unless you have max master skin, your chances of getting peraine glands are almost none, and even with this level of skill I remember it would still regularly fail. This was kinda needed before to combat successful farming parties being formed and flooding the market with peraine poison that would never decay on weapons or blowdarts. Much of that will now change and while I don't mind acquiring some ingredients having a high level of difficulty but its another story if they are locked behind what seems to be multiple maxed out skill caps.
Finally a small comment on recipes, I was somewhat disappointed with miscreant level brew because it would not allow me to figure out the recipes of a few cures i had acquired. As for poison recipes at the time i didn't even bother. I really hope poison recipes can be learned from having enough level of skill and perhaps some testing rather than OOCly through friends or needing to join a clan and hoping the staff member running likes you enough to tell you some recipes.
Quote from: Dresan on July 10, 2022, 12:45:39 PM
I just have a question about this part. I know this is still in the works but does this mean the failure we currently see when trying to apply poison to someone is going away?
Not entirely, as there's different mechanics at play here than just a saving throw vs poison, but the total failure will be less frequent.
Quote from: Dresan on July 10, 2022, 12:45:39 PM
Finally a small comment on recipes, I was somewhat disappointed with miscreant level brew because it would not allow me to figure out the recipes of a few cures i had acquired. As for poison recipes at the time i didn't even bother. I really hope poison recipes can be learned from having enough level of skill and perhaps some testing rather than OOCly through friends or needing to join a clan and hoping the staff member running likes you enough to tell you some recipes.
Which cures and poisons you can brew is dependent on brew skill level, just like being able to even try a badass chest plate is dependent on armor making level. Miscreant has access to nearly all the recipes though.
As for figuring it out, just like the introduction of this brew system catered to people who like to figure it out rather than be told stuff by the system, this will too. But given my brief playing with Grishen, it will be much safer to do so than cures were.
Quote from: Halaster on July 10, 2022, 01:22:17 PM
Not entirely, as there's different mechanics at play here than just a saving throw vs poison, but the total failure will be less frequent.
Let me just say I am glad you are making these changes. It really adds another fun dimension into the game which felt fairly binary before. Thank you. While you have a lot on your plate, at some point maybe that mechanic can be looked at to have skills like poisoning (and stats? on the other end) influence success/failure rate.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 10, 2022, 01:46:08 PM
Which cures and poisons you can brew is dependent on brew skill level, just like being able to even try a badass chest plate is dependent on armor making level. Miscreant has access to nearly all the recipes though.
Hmm. Interesting. When I last played my miscreant I was in talks with another group to try to learn some recipes of the stuff i couldn't figure out due to low brew skill but the talks never completed. I didn't realize that it wasn't just that I couldn't just figure the recipe out but that skill level would prevent me from even trying to make them outright.
Its not a bad thing but it changes perspective viability of certain classes going forward.
The updated helpfile for Grishen states:
Quote...It works best on arrows and bolts, though it is still rather potent on any type of slashing, piercing, or stabbing weapon...
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Grishen
As far as I recall, the poison command only works with 'stabbing' weapons, and cannot be applied to slashing and piercing weapons. Is this a change to the code and they can now be applied to those weapons?
Quote from: mansa on July 11, 2022, 01:08:44 PM
The updated helpfile for Grishen states:
Quote...It works best on arrows and bolts, though it is still rather potent on any type of slashing, piercing, or stabbing weapon...
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Grishen
As far as I recall, the poison command only works with 'stabbing' weapons, and cannot be applied to slashing and piercing weapons. Is this a change to the code and they can now be applied to those weapons?
There are select slashing/chopping weapons that can be poisoned, usually smaller, more compact versions rather than full-size weapons.
Will there be materials or additional components (like a primer) that can positively or negatively affect poison degradation? Like a spearhead made of a porous material like bone might hold poisons better than one made of stone, and one made of obsidian would cause poisons to degrade even faster?
Or some sort of primer a master brew/poisoner could make that would double the expiration of the poison's degradation? (random example, not that exact formula)
Mansa, It must have been a good long while since you tried I guess.
Most piercing weapons can be poisoned AFAIK, And over the years, more and more of other styles, Though as another has said, size is normally a factor.
I've never found axes that could be poisoned, but definately seen a couple swords that could.
That said, even if you poison the swords, only piercing and stabbing attacks can apply the poison on the weapon as far as I am aware.
It would be nice for that to change.
Quote from: Brisket on July 11, 2022, 01:26:05 PM
Will there be materials or additional components (like a primer) that can positively or negatively affect poison degradation? Like a spearhead made of a porous material like bone might hold poisons better than one made of stone, and one made of obsidian would cause poisons to degrade even faster?
Or some sort of primer a master brew/poisoner could make that would double the expiration of the poison's degradation? (random example, not that exact formula)
Perhaps eventually, but not for now.
Quote from: Dresan on July 11, 2022, 04:54:18 PM
I've never found axes that could be poisoned, but definately seen a couple swords that could.
That said, even if you poison the swords, only piercing and stabbing attacks can apply the poison on the weapon as far as I am aware.
It would be nice for that to change.
That is untrue and always has been. Slashing attacks on poisonable weapons transfer poison just fine.
Source: Murders.
Quote from: Inks on July 11, 2022, 11:28:54 PM
That is untrue and always has been. Slashing attacks on poisonable weapons transfer poison just fine.
Source: Murders.
This statement is inaccurate. Its a gripe that has been brought up a couple times on the forum over the years.
That said, many years have passed since I tried it, so maybe things have changed at some point, definately something to test in game again, especially given the helpfile.
On a previous PC who could do master poisoning and brew, I noticed that when making poisons... it did not echo back to the player as a 'valid' combination and instead would always taste like ash.
Has this been fixed, so that if you DO make a poisonous mash, it will echo back correctly as a "tastes like: murder, death, betrayal'?
Quote from: Riev on July 12, 2022, 09:28:30 AM
On a previous PC who could do master poisoning and brew, I noticed that when making poisons... it did not echo back to the player as a 'valid' combination and instead would always taste like ash.
(I had tentatively concluded, because of this, that brewed poisons weren't a thing. Maybe I never tried eating 'em.)
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on July 12, 2022, 09:52:59 AM
Quote from: Riev on July 12, 2022, 09:28:30 AM
On a previous PC who could do master poisoning and brew, I noticed that when making poisons... it did not echo back to the player as a 'valid' combination and instead would always taste like ash.
(I had tentatively concluded, because of this, that brewed poisons weren't a thing. Maybe I never tried eating 'em.)
As a character who ate one, on purpose, and had to have staff come help because I couldn't play the game for literal hours... they do work.
Quote from: Riev on July 12, 2022, 01:07:10 PM
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on July 12, 2022, 09:52:59 AM
Quote from: Riev on July 12, 2022, 09:28:30 AM
On a previous PC who could do master poisoning and brew, I noticed that when making poisons... it did not echo back to the player as a 'valid' combination and instead would always taste like ash.
(I had tentatively concluded, because of this, that brewed poisons weren't a thing. Maybe I never tried eating 'em.)
You could brew mashes that were poisonous. You just couldn't apply them to weapons, etc. And still can not. You need to make them into a paste, which can be applied to a weapon, etc.
As a character who ate one, on purpose, and had to have staff come help because I couldn't play the game for literal hours... they do work.
I think the question is...
I have the brew skill. I do not have the poisoning skill.
I am exploring brewing items with a variety of combinations of herbs.
After I make my 'mash' or 'tablet' or 'vial', I 'analyze' the item to see what I've made.
I infer that "if it tastes like Ash, it isn't a valid recipe, since everything tastes like Ash UNLESS it's a valid recipe for a cure."
However, valid recipes for poisons (not cures), when crafted taste like 'ash'. How can I tell if I am successful in creating poison tablets, if I need to eat every 'ash' tablet I make to discover it?
it is also
I have the Brew skill at Master. I have the Poisoning Skill at master. I create a 3-ingredient brewed poison mash.
When I analyze the mash, it "tastes like ash" instead of a valid combination.
Will that be fixed?
Sort of overthinking it.
The paste is a craft. A craft that needs a valid combination.
At least currently. Maybe we should change that.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 12, 2022, 02:29:24 PM
Sort of overthinking it.
The paste is a craft. A craft that needs a valid combination.
At least currently. Maybe we should change that.
Forget the paste. Forget the current changes in effect.
If I create a cure for bloodburn, on analyze, it returns "it tastes like <the stuff bloodburn cures taste like". This confirms a valid recipe.
if I create a POISON for bloodburn, on analyze, it returns "it tastes like ash"
Is that still the case? Because if so, only people who 'already know how to make poison OOCly" will be creating poisons.
I crafted the mash. Let me combine with a poison I know is bloodburn.
Oh I can not craft it, it must not be bloodburn.
Or
Oh I can craft it, it must be a bloodburn mash.
No tasting poison necessary (which sounds dangerous).
Quote from: Brokkr on July 12, 2022, 02:45:46 PM
I crafted the mash. Let me combine with a poison I know is bloodburn.
Oh I can not craft it, it must not be bloodburn.
Or
Oh I can craft it, it must be a bloodburn mash.
No tasting poison necessary (which sounds dangerous).
You can't expect players to take every 'mash that tastes like ash' item they have, and attempt to craft it with a bloodburn poison item in order to figure out if the 'mash that tastes like failure' is actually not a failure.
If there are 12 different "herb" types/essences.., and you can't have unique crafts.
There are
12 different 1 item crafts.
132 different 2 item crafts.
1320 different 3 item crafts.
11880 different 4 item crafts.
95040 different 5 item crafts.
To check all 108384 possible crafts would take a long, long time.
Quote from: mansa on July 12, 2022, 03:09:04 PM
You can't expect players to take every 'mash that tastes like ash' item they have, and attempt to craft it with a bloodburn poison item in order to figure out if the 'mash that tastes like failure' is actually not a failure.
It's actually not that bad. Still a one-step check; it just needs you to have the natural poison item on hand (which is probably why you were crafting a poison mash anyway). Notwithstanding...
Quote from: Brokkr on July 12, 2022, 02:45:46 PM
No tasting poison necessary (which sounds dangerous).
What about something like: "You recoil from the vile taste of ~." A little cartoony, but lets you know you got a Real Thing, as we currently do with cure mashes.
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on July 12, 2022, 03:32:20 PM
Quote from: mansa on July 12, 2022, 03:09:04 PM
You can't expect players to take every 'mash that tastes like ash' item they have, and attempt to craft it with a bloodburn poison item in order to figure out if the 'mash that tastes like failure' is actually not a failure.
It's actually not that bad. Still a one-step check; it just needs you to have the natural poison item on hand (which is probably why you were crafting a poison mash anyway). Notwithstanding...
I rather it be a bit more character skill based, with relevant information and clues be included in help files and documentation, rather than require a spreadsheet and repetative effort which will most likely encourage the information be spread oocly.
At some point with the cure system, I just preferred to have my character steal or buy basic cures because organizing all the herbs for cures got a bit tedious.
Hey Mansa
Try assessing the mash.
This works if you have the poison skill, otherwise...you just can't tell.
Olafson
Quote from: mansa on July 12, 2022, 02:07:07 PM
I think the question is...
How can I tell if I am successful in creating poison tablets, if I need to eat every 'ash' tablet I make to discover it?
Quote from: mansa on July 12, 2022, 03:09:04 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on July 12, 2022, 02:45:46 PM
I crafted the mash. Let me combine with a poison I know is bloodburn.
Oh I can not craft it, it must not be bloodburn.
Or
Oh I can craft it, it must be a bloodburn mash.
No tasting poison necessary (which sounds dangerous).
You can't expect players to take every 'mash that tastes like ash' item they have, and attempt to craft it with a bloodburn poison item in order to figure out if the 'mash that tastes like failure' is actually not a failure.
If there are 12 different "herb" types/essences.., and you can't have unique crafts.
There are
12 different 1 item crafts.
132 different 2 item crafts.
1320 different 3 item crafts.
11880 different 4 item crafts.
95040 different 5 item crafts.
To check all 108384 possible crafts would take a long, long time.
Not sure I get your point. If you can tell a mash tastes like beer and whiskey that does not tell you anything about whether it is a poison, without eating it or (newly) crafting into paste or the other thing. Combinations are still the same. Tastes are irrelevant if you do not know which ones make which poisons, and if you do, just use those taste herbs.
The only scenario that seems to match what you are saying is if you have an mash you know is a poison, somehow, and want to back into how to make it? Not sure how you would get into that position.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 12, 2022, 05:20:18 PM
The only scenario that seems to match what you are saying is if you have an mash you know is a poison, somehow, and want to back into how to make it? Not sure how you would get into that position.
That's it exactly.
Quote from: mansa on July 12, 2022, 06:09:25 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on July 12, 2022, 05:20:18 PM
The only scenario that seems to match what you are saying is if you have an mash you know is a poison, somehow, and want to back into how to make it? Not sure how you would get into that position.
That's it exactly.
You can do this with cures by 'tasting' them but I'm not sure if there would be a safe way to do that with poisons...
You need a high poison and high brew skill to be certain of what you're making if you're dabbling in brewed poisons.
Quote from: mansa on July 12, 2022, 06:09:25 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on July 12, 2022, 05:20:18 PM
The only scenario that seems to match what you are saying is if you have an mash you know is a poison, somehow, and want to back into how to make it? Not sure how you would get into that position.
That's it exactly.
Then in that limited scenario you would need poisoning, not just brew.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 12, 2022, 06:33:46 PM
Quote from: mansa on July 12, 2022, 06:09:25 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on July 12, 2022, 05:20:18 PM
The only scenario that seems to match what you are saying is if you have an mash you know is a poison, somehow, and want to back into how to make it? Not sure how you would get into that position.
That's it exactly.
Then in that limited scenario you would need poisoning, not just brew.
Alright. I feel like maybe I'm not explaining my position, or what I'm explaining isn't how it works.
I played a character with Master Poison and Master Brew.
When I brew a cure tablet, I can analyze it and it "tastes like flavors"
When I brew a poison tablet, it only tastes like ash.
This is inconsistent.
Are there plans to make the brew code consistent, or are you comfortable with Poisons and Cures not working the same way?
If one of the coders decides to change it to be consistent, that would be up to them.
I am approaching from Is there a playability issue I need to flag to them.
The play-ability issue is that the Brew context does not work consistently between the two main things Brew is used for.
Even if I know A, B, and C all combined into a poisoned mash, I can't verify that at a future date.
If D, E and F combine into a CURE mash, I can verify that any time I want, through the use of analyze.
Its not a Find Out IC issue. Its a "I already found out, but I have no way to determine what this item is after crafting it".
Quote from: Riev on July 12, 2022, 08:36:14 PM
Are there plans to make the brew code consistent, or are you comfortable with Poisons and Cures not working the same way?
Yes, I'll make poisons have some kind of way of telling vs the ash thing.
If it tastes like ash, it's probably as good as ash.
Quote from: ShaiHulud on July 12, 2022, 11:33:43 PM
If it tastes like ash, it's probably as good as ash.
This was my concern. To me, it felt like "if you know what makes a poison, you're fine. If you don't, then good luck finding out"
Quote from: Halaster on July 12, 2022, 08:58:12 PM
Quote from: Riev on July 12, 2022, 08:36:14 PM
Are there plans to make the brew code consistent, or are you comfortable with Poisons and Cures not working the same way?
Yes, I'll make poisons have some kind of way of telling vs the ash thing.
In real life, plant based poisons have different tastes. Alkaloids are bitter, etc.
Today's changes put potency values on cures. They currently do nothing, but are in place for changes in the near future.
With a previous update we added it so that liquid color is appended to vials. "a small glass vial of blue liquid".
Oleupata then built new vials with various shapes, and these are now sold where the other vials are.
So you can now have:
- a square glass vial of blue liquid
- a square glass vial of red liquid
- a glass vial of red liquid
etc.
re: potency
Quote- First wave of advanced brewing put in place, for grishen only
- Potency added - the primary determination is your brew skill, with a minor bonus from poisoning skill
- You can assess items that are poisoned and get an idea of its strength based on your poisoning skill
- You can assess items that are cures and get an idea of its strength based on your brew skill
Q. Does that mean you can eventually brew different potency cures or that cures start a 'full potency', and then degrade over time?
Quote from: mansa on July 24, 2022, 08:48:55 PM
Q. Does that mean you can eventually brew different potency cures or that cures start a 'full potency', and then degrade over time?
The potency will heavily depend on your brew skill. But they'll start as 'full potency' (that you can make for your skill level) and then degrade over time.
Cures going to degrade? will poisons too even if not applied to a weapon? This just doesn't seem fun or rewarding to make cures and poisons so much harder to get and then also make them degrade.
What's the goal? You give a detailed spec https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58086.msg1078862.html#msg1078862 here, but your gameplay goals are not clear.
You say "make poisoning someone's food/drink a more viable option than today" and you imply that the highest potency poisons should more difficult to make than they are now. That's all great. But unless this degradation is over real life years (like with herbs), I don't see the value-add for us players. Seems like adding a grind.
I find that in certain areas, poisons and poisoned weapons tend to stock up to the point where you eventually have to start just junking the 100 bloodburned arrows you have because you need room to make MORE bloodburned arrows on your next Poison-having character.
Degrade is nice, and I'm sure staff will eventually balance it out. If I put peraine on a blade and you don't use it for 3 in game years... it probably shouldn't be as potent as it used to be.
Cures, similarly, get stockpiled and never used.
Spice, also, before degradation came in.
The one thing I DO dislike about degradation is that this game moves in days and weeks. I might be able to get 20 cures today, but the RP event where I might need them can't come together for another RL month. Are the cures still bad, because I wanted to make sure I got them before the event due to OOC circumstances?
Quote from: Riev on July 26, 2022, 08:46:02 AM
The one thing I DO dislike about degradation is that this game moves in days and weeks. I might be able to get 20 cures today, but the RP event where I might need them can't come together for another RL month. Are the cures still bad, because I wanted to make sure I got them before the event due to OOC circumstances?
When I go on a road trip with my son, I always pack the greenest bananas and pick the freshest of ingredients. If I'm going into a war, and my life depends on the freshness of a cure, it's my job as a leader to prioritize fresh cures.
From a code perspective. Keep the cure on you! If you know spice will degrade at xyz rate. If you put it under your bed, it degrades all day everyday. If you log out with it however, you 3x to 10x it's lifespan depending on how often you're logged on.
It would be nice if we can tell how fresh something is. "This smells completely stale and has a crusty film on it."
"This looks like it's mostly stale"
"This looks like it might be partly stale."
"This is starting to go stale"
"The colors are starting to go dull."
"This has full color and a nice strong smell."
"This looks freshly made."
There is a lot in this thread that makes me regret playing Arm again.
FOIC: Only took 8 years of playing and updates being made to poison for me, and from what I can tell others, to learn the poisons were craftable at all. Really good system, if your game is known for being newbie friendly, inclusive, and helpful. What's our tagline again?
Cures: This, is already one of the shittiest features in Arm. Changes have been made, that have made it worse, and I guess better to use, but the player end seems to just get shittier and shittier. More poisonous creatures more places. Stronger longer lasting poisons. Prohibitively expensive cures based on "average Zalanthan incomes" don't forget the virtual world. Getting cures, has always been a massive shit show. I don't believe I've ever seen an organization handles cures well, even clans designed to create them. And you genuinely believe that making cures decay, is going to be an ADDITIVE experience to Armageddon? What happened when you made burn cures, less convenient to obtain hmm? People quit going places. Be smart, protect your playerbase.
We're still fiddling with the exact numbers, but it's going to be in the realm of RL months.
Cures will be dependent on the type (vial or tablet) and the strength.
Poisons will be depenedent on the type (grishen, peraine, etc) and the strength.
Riev pretty much explained why. I agree, we need to factor in realism and balance, while not making it a huge hassle. But it should require effort and something you have to plan for, work towards, and revisit every once in a while.
Quote from: Agent_137 on July 26, 2022, 02:29:20 AM
Cures going to degrade? will poisons too even if not applied to a weapon?
Yes to both. If you go out and collect a bunch of Bear Piss that is known to be a potent form of peraine, and stockpile in a crate in your warehouse, and forget about it for an IC year or two.. yeah, it's going to lose potency over time, eventually becoming inert.
Quote from: Agent_137 on July 26, 2022, 02:29:20 AM
This just doesn't seem fun or rewarding to make cures and poisons so much harder to get and then also make them degrade.
I'd like to point out that high level poisons are going to be harder to get, yes.
Cures are not. The ingredients for cures are not changing. You just need a good brew skill (with a small bonus from poisoning skill) to make the best cures from those ingredients. If you compared them in terms of strength vs difficulty acquiring vs degradation times, cures will by far outweigh poisons. It will be easier (like it is now) to get cures, easier to make higher strength versions of them, and they will degrade slower than poisons. My biggest concern I'm keeping in mind while I work on this is balancing it all to avoid taking away the teeth of poison by making cures too "good".
Quote from: Halaster on July 26, 2022, 10:49:54 AM
My biggest concern I'm keeping in mind while I work on this is balancing it all to avoid taking away the teeth of poison by making cures too "good".
Cures are kept on hand as a prophylaxis, the prepared hunter has them.
As such, they will need to continuously buy/make them to stay prepared for something that you may never ever need.
Poisons can be gathered and made as needed. As such, even though cures are easier to produce, the demand for them will be much higher than poisons as a consequence.
And as such, the supply and demand of either will be heavily influenced by arbitrary factors of where players happen to roll their characters and how popular the game is that season.
It would be very easy for a shortage of cures and an excess of poisonings to occur under certain situations.
Quote from: Halaster on July 26, 2022, 10:49:54 AM
Quote from: Agent_137 on July 26, 2022, 02:29:20 AM
This just doesn't seem fun or rewarding to make cures and poisons so much harder to get and then also make them degrade.
I'd like to point out that high level poisons are going to be harder to get, yes.
Cures are not. The ingredients for cures are not changing. You just need a good brew skill (with a small bonus from poisoning skill) to make the best cures from those ingredients. If you compared them in terms of strength vs difficulty acquiring vs degradation times, cures will by far outweigh poisons. It will be easier (like it is now) to get cures, easier to make higher strength versions of them, and they will degrade slower than poisons. My biggest concern I'm keeping in mind while I work on this is balancing it all to avoid taking away the teeth of poison by making cures too "good".
Can I eat a handful of "poor" cures that I have, and it will cure me of my "bad evil poison" ?
Basically,
If I get poisoned at Level 3, and I eat a "good" cure, will it take me to level 0 and be cured?
If I get poisoned at Level 3, and I eat a "poor" cure, will it take me to level 2 or do nothing?
Quote from: mansa on July 26, 2022, 11:08:36 AM
Can I eat a handful of "poor" cures that I have, and it will cure me of my "bad evil poison" ?
Basically,
If I get poisoned at Level 3, and I eat a "good" cure, will it take me to level 0 and be cured?
If I get poisoned at Level 3, and I eat a "poor" cure, will it take me to level 2 or do nothing?
Taking cures that are lower strength than the poison will not cure you, but they will reduce its bad effects. So if you get poisoned by the "bad evil poison" that's very potent, and pop a weak cure, you'll still suffer, but that weak cure just might be enough to keep you from dying when you otherwise would not have. Though you'll feel like shit.
If you want to get real fancy...assuming that cures are coded as an affect with strength and duration, I think they should stack this way:
stackedCure = {
.strength = max(
// Always get at least the stronger of the two.
// This means that you can extend a strong cure with a weak cure.
min(cure1.strength, cure2.strength),
// Modest benefit when stacking two cures of similar strength.
1.2 * (cure1.strength + cure2.strength)/2.,
),
// Duration resets to the longer of the two (remaining time on the existing cure, or full duration of the new one).
.duration = max(cure1.duration, cure2.duration),
}
- Taking two cheapass cures back to back gives you a 20% boost in effectiveness, no increased duration. Worthwhile but not amazing.
- Taking a second cure halfway through the run of your first cure gives you at least as the duration as the second cure, and doesn't reduce duration of the first cure.
- Yes, you would ideally frontload your strongest cure and then keep boosting it with weaker ones. But I think that's kinda reasonable.
Hal, will we be able to take cures before getting poisoned as a prophylactic?
Pleaaaaase?
This has the ability to neuter the best (fast-acting) poisons, so I would pay for that two ways:
(1) "The cure is worse than the disease!" Strong cures for strong poisons have negative effects.
(2) "It's strongest right after you take it." Reduce cure strength over the course of the affect. If you're really lucky, your prophylactic anti-perraine cure gives you enough time to take a second cure after you get hit.
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on July 26, 2022, 11:50:41 AM
Hal, will we be able to take cures before getting poisoned as a prophylactic?
I think this is already a mechanic for certain poisons, unless it's just a RP mechanic and not a real one.
Will creating a cure below the maximum potency level possible with your brew skillcap count as a fail for the purpose of increasing your brew skill?
Quote from: Lotion on July 26, 2022, 02:51:45 PM
Will creating a cure below the maximum potency level possible with your brew skillcap count as a fail for the purpose of increasing your brew skill?
I don't think the code allows you to choose what potency you can brew.
Quote from: Halaster on July 24, 2022, 09:36:09 PM
Quote from: mansa on July 24, 2022, 08:48:55 PM
Q. Does that mean you can eventually brew different potency cures or that cures start a 'full potency', and then degrade over time?
The potency will heavily depend on your brew skill. But they'll start as 'full potency' (that you can make for your skill level) and then degrade over time.
Quote from: stoicreader on July 26, 2022, 11:07:18 AM
Quote from: Halaster on July 26, 2022, 10:49:54 AM
My biggest concern I'm keeping in mind while I work on this is balancing it all to avoid taking away the teeth of poison by making cures too "good".
Cures are kept on hand as a prophylaxis, the prepared hunter has them.
As such, they will need to continuously buy/make them to stay prepared for something that you may never ever need.
Poisons can be gathered and made as needed. As such, even though cures are easier to produce, the demand for them will be much higher than poisons as a consequence.
And as such, the supply and demand of either will be heavily influenced by arbitrary factors of where players happen to roll their characters and how popular the game is that season.
It would be very easy for a shortage of cures and an excess of poisonings to occur under certain situations.
Just curious, are you really advocating the necessity of a brewmaster pc in every clan more than 4 or 5 members? "Keep 30 bynners in cures" sounds an awful lot like a full time job.
I mean, poisons are meant to actually kill people too, beyond just peraine and heramide, rather than just be some inconvenience.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 26, 2022, 05:12:05 PM
I mean, poisons are meant to actually kill people too, beyond just peraine and heramide, rather than just be some inconvenience.
Peraine doesn't kill anyone. XD
Quote from: Brokkr on July 26, 2022, 05:12:05 PM
I mean, poisons are meant to actually kill people too, beyond just peraine and heramide, rather than just be some inconvenience.
YeAh BuT PeRaInE aNd HeRaMiDe ArE LeSs RiSky
Quote from: Halcyon on July 26, 2022, 03:42:16 PM
Just curious, are you really advocating the necessity of a brewmaster pc in every clan more than 4 or 5 members? "Keep 30 bynners in cures" sounds an awful lot like a full time job.
"Keep 30 bynners in cure" is a bit of an unrealistic goal in the first place in a resource-starved world. For that matter, why would you need to? Have the sergeant or whoever carry around a couple of each cures, and give them to someone as needed, instead of trying to have a full set for everyone.
Quote from: Lotion on July 26, 2022, 02:51:45 PM
Will creating a cure below the maximum potency level possible with your brew skillcap count as a fail for the purpose of increasing your brew skill?
No, but as mansa said, you won't be able to specify the potency, you'll just make the highest you can according to your skill. Failing to craft altogether is how you gain.
Will cures in NPC shop inventories degrade over time?
Will there be a way for a player to examine a cure for its potency level (including degradation)?
Quote from: Halaster on July 26, 2022, 07:35:45 PM"Keep 30 bynners in cure" is a bit of an unrealistic goal in the first place in a resource-starved world. For that matter, why would you need to? Have the sergeant or whoever carry around a couple of each cures, and give them to someone as needed, instead of trying to have a full set for everyone.
I am [most loved Byn sergeant of all time, all time🏆] and I approve this message
Quote from: Lotion on July 26, 2022, 07:52:37 PM
Will cures in NPC shop inventories degrade over time?
Will there be a way for a player to examine a cure for its potency level (including degradation)?
You can be assured that shopkeeper's cures they sell will be top quality! Best value around! Don't buy the other guy!
Yes, assess will show you strength/potency if you have the brew skill for cures, poisoning skill for poison.
Quote from: Halaster on July 26, 2022, 07:35:45 PM
Quote from: Halcyon on July 26, 2022, 03:42:16 PM
Just curious, are you really advocating the necessity of a brewmaster pc in every clan more than 4 or 5 members? "Keep 30 bynners in cures" sounds an awful lot like a full time job.
"Keep 30 bynners in cure" is a bit of an unrealistic goal in the first place in a resource-starved world. For that matter, why would you need to? Have the sergeant or whoever carry around a couple of each cures, and give them to someone as needed, instead of trying to have a full set for everyone.
I don't see this working out the way you might envision, probably. There is nothing keeping people from running it this way now: sergeant carries cures, other people hopefully get some if they are poisoned. But they don't, and in fact a ton of money changes hands making sure everyone gets their own set. That people don't stop at just having leaders carry cures probably should clue us in that restricting curative availability even more may not be a sought-after change.
It worked fine, really. Wanting to have a perfect set of equipment is not the same thing as need - Runners are meant to be making coin, if spending more on them than getting out of it, the whole thing is wrong, there shouldn't be handouts unless they are paying for it (there's even some players that will literally use any OOC excuse every time to avoid any contracts, when realistically they would be kicked from the Byn otherwise how would Sergeants ever get anyone to come out? not talking about people who legitimately can't, but people that will literally refuse then go back to sparring for hours like they do every day) or the character has somehow proved themselves too much trouble to replace - I think this is why the Byn are not allowed to go grebbing or have time off to craft and trade stuff etc, so they can't basically cheat the system and keep things a struggle, because it's meant to be like that, it's meant to be a nightmare capitalism simulator, and experiencing that pain probably helps people empathise with people from less developed countries where there is no free healthcare
All NPC cures should be removed too! They've trivialised poison for a long time. Bloodburn, sounds like such a scary name, when's the last time you heard anyone actually having a problem with it? Why have it even exist?
If someone can just eat the most basic of cures to live through the most complex poisons, why bother with any of it when magick or someone with high melee combat already are more likely to actually kill than give a little tickle and eat a 60 coin tablet? I don't know game statistics but from what I have seen magick and combat are way way way more what causes people to die, and magick is just "new game+ mode" rather than having any disadvantages, at the moment, especially since they can have both now.
Lets have a new era of interaction between characters and remove all vending machines for cures and poisons (and make all NPC created stuff inert) since they are usually used in interaction with other characters - it's not needed at all, there's always SO many characters that are willing to help, even through friends of friends - it shouldn't be possible to get any of this stuff without characters actually taking risks or roleplaying with other characters.
Also lets have some IC laws regulating who is allowed access to cures, and that they have to be screened by Templars before being allowed - create a black market :D Bearing in mind that none of these are things that the average citizens that don't leave the walls should be experiencing, and the more expensive they are, the more the opinion would be... Why should this random person be allowed cures for the exotic poisons that their "betters" use to get rid of people that are problems to them? "If we allow this person that never leaves the walls to have bloodburn cures, we might need to actually waste something expensive later on this person that doesn't currently have much value to our totalitarian government right now?" I think a lot of interesting plots would probably get started off by them becoming something people envy each other for. Or wondering why mister normal grey cloak has templar-rated exotics.
The whole point of this was to make 'common' poisons more commonly useful, as far as I understand, and to make the 'effective' poisons more rare and valuable. To me, this mostly comes down to PvP scenarios. I believe that moving forward, there will have to be a lot of inspection on the strength of poisons as we have them, because the entire poison/pvp environment is going to be shifting and changing over this.
Just a suggestion, while this ecology of poison is leveling out and being inspected and tweaked and made into what -will be better-, I do believe deaths to poison should be inspected for chances of resurrection. I know this is against general policy, but this is also a fairly drastic shift in risk assessment and pvp engagements; I have been hit by bloodburn doing 9/10 of my hp in damage twice now, and that was from what used to be a relatively weak dose.
I don't think this special consideration needs to last long, just long enough for the knowledge to be gained in game and spread, and for new systems of preparation to come into play. Basically, the 'significant effect' of the common poisons is supposed to be based around advantage-gain, not lethality. That's why we didn't want the effective poisons being common. We want less lethality, to make for engagements where poison is not an I-win, but a 'I'm closer to winning now'. It can change a hunter into prey, but prey still tries to evade and often does get away. While we sort out new strengths, and whatnot, I'd hate for characters to be lost because they continued to try to poison without a cure because this thing used to not be too lethal.
Quote from: Halaster on July 26, 2022, 08:06:58 PM
Quote from: Lotion on July 26, 2022, 07:52:37 PM
Will cures in NPC shop inventories degrade over time?
Will there be a way for a player to examine a cure for its potency level (including degradation)?
You can be assured that shopkeeper's cures they sell will be top quality! Best value around! Don't buy the other guy!
Yes, assess will show you strength/potency if you have the brew skill for cures, poisoning skill for poison.
Is there any crossover? like high poisoning giving low level brew identifying, and vice versa. Reflecting the fact that if you've failed with poison that often, you've probably handled a lot of cures etc etc.
Quote from: Bloodpaint on July 26, 2022, 08:47:05 PM
Stuff.
This might be the most unpopular opinion I've seen today. There aren't enough doctors to go around and they make bank as is. I'd also rather not see more insta death by elven poison arrow going around. Or death by snake.
Quote from: Svalinya on July 27, 2022, 04:29:41 AMThere aren't enough doctors to go around
There is, and always is, or people that know them, I never once had to use NPCs - the amount of cures running around is silly, nearly every grebber and hunter shouldn't have a full set against every form of poison imaginable, but that's where we ended up.
I'm unhappy with the changes, because my accumulated ooc knowledge is now useless, which removes my edge over the less knowledgeable playerbase.
Therefore, my opinion is very biased on the topic, and should be totally ignored. 8)
I mean the point is those characters with the knowledge aren't going to be stopped or impacted much at all and it's been ridiculously easy for a while now, adding NPC stuff just exploded it to comical levels where people that would not be, realistically, are all kitted up as if they are high ranking aides expecting an assassination at any moment
Quote from: Bloodpaint on July 27, 2022, 06:06:57 AM
I mean the point is those characters with the knowledge aren't going to be stopped or impacted much at all and it's been ridiculously easy for a while now, adding NPC stuff just exploded it to comical levels where people that would not be, realistically, are all kitted up as if they are high ranking aides expecting an assassination at any moment
In a rare swing, I actually agree with Bloodpaint on this.
When cures originally came out, there was really no way to determine what the cure was for. Sure, if you knew the color and shape, you could reason out one of a couple kinds of cures, but without brew you never really KNEW. Even then, the time to get a cure, analyze, and try and remember if thats teh right combination for what ails you... you're probably already dead. Now, we have colors on vials showing, and about 9 different kinds of vials that you can use so at a glance you can tell what vial-cure you just pulled.
I've had characters (too recent to talk about) that would make cures. I tried selling to military organizations like the Byn and hunters. A "full" set of cures was like... 2 or 3 of the "common" cures and one of the "rare" cures. All said and done, a full set was like 1500 coins. AND I THOUGHT THEY WERE GETTING AWAY WITH MURDER AT THOSE PRICES.
I'm on board for "We should brew up a few cures for this trip, just in case", even if that raises the prices of "escorts". Its like warspice... Warspice is AWESOME. You just have to know you're going into a scenario where its warranted. Same with cures and poisons, you should be acquiring them in preparation for a planned event, not a 100% effective "Break Glass in Case of Emergency" scenario.
Quote from: Riev on July 27, 2022, 08:52:56 AM
I'm on board for "We should brew up a few cures for this trip, just in case", even if that raises the prices of "escorts". Its like warspice... Warspice is AWESOME. You just have to know you're going into a scenario where its warranted. Same with cures and poisons, you should be acquiring them in preparation for a planned event, not a 100% effective "Break Glass in Case of Emergency" scenario.
If only we could enforce this ideology with both cures
and poisons. Because we all know it's not going to play out that way.
Quote from: Alesan on July 27, 2022, 09:05:20 AM
Quote from: Riev on July 27, 2022, 08:52:56 AM
I'm on board for "We should brew up a few cures for this trip, just in case", even if that raises the prices of "escorts". Its like warspice... Warspice is AWESOME. You just have to know you're going into a scenario where its warranted. Same with cures and poisons, you should be acquiring them in preparation for a planned event, not a 100% effective "Break Glass in Case of Emergency" scenario.
If only we could enforce this ideology with both cures and poisons. Because we all know it's not going to play out that way.
So long as a poisoned blade keeps its potency for 3-4 RL weeks, I'd be okay with it. It could drop off SHARPLY after that, and I'd be fine. If you need a poisoned blade/arrow/dart/whatever, and you aren't going to use it in a RL month? You didn't NEED it, and you can afford to get another one done.
You can afford the like 50 coins for a bloodburn cure that you ended up not needed, and now you need to replace it. What the hell are you doing, where your character is in constant need of this poison cure, and isn't making coin enough to buy new ones every IC year?
What are wilderness PCs going to do that need to deal with angkh, cilops and scorpions on a daily basis if cures are some rare thing that's only available from PCs?
Quote from: Nao on July 27, 2022, 12:56:41 PM
What are wilderness PCs going to do that need to deal with angkh, cilops and scorpions on a daily basis if cures are some rare thing that's only available from PCs?
Prioritize brew. Or choose not to.
Why are we pretending that everyone who has any exposure to poison should just automatically have all capability of dealing with it again? Make character choices.
Quote from: Nao on July 27, 2022, 12:56:41 PM
What are wilderness PCs going to do that need to deal with angkh, cilops and scorpions on a daily basis if cures are some rare thing that's only available from PCs?
I think the current answer is: the regions where those critters are found are meant to be dangerous, and you can't expect to just traverse them casually.
Which is fine! It's just a change in expectations. A year or two ago an experienced player could expect to buy a couple cure tablets from a shop and then run their new PC between most starting locations without much worry. Today that's less possible.
As for the NPC status of selling cures and poisons:
Yes, those who sell it will to continue to sell them. However, everything sold by an NPC is going to be inferior to those craftable by PC's. They will be selling low to mid level (mostly low) cures and poisons.
There is also new functionality that let's us specify the potency level of NPC's who poison you. Meaning, we can lower the potency of snakes, raise it for cilops, or whatever. And will be balancing that as best we can.
Quote from: Armaddict on July 27, 2022, 01:28:23 PM
Quote from: Nao on July 27, 2022, 12:56:41 PM
What are wilderness PCs going to do that need to deal with angkh, cilops and scorpions on a daily basis if cures are some rare thing that's only available from PCs?
Prioritize brew. Or choose not to.
Why are we pretending that everyone who has any exposure to poison should just automatically have all capability of dealing with it again? Make character choices.
You still need to 'kickstart' that shit and will need cures before your brew is high enough to successfully make a cure. It's a chicken egg problem.
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on July 27, 2022, 01:35:19 PM
I think the current answer is: the regions where those critters are found are meant to be dangerous, and you can't expect to just traverse them casually.
Cool. There are (at least) a couple of delf tribes that live in the middle of these regions now. They can't just chose to avoid these regions.
QuoteYou still need to 'kickstart' that shit and will need cures before your brew is high enough to successfully make a cure. It's a chicken egg problem.
You will need them if you don't play accordingly, sure. Circumstance still happens, but that's the way death happens in dangerous worlds. I don't see any benefit to revamps that create new systems that are easy to ignore. Tread carefully in the wilds, because even the wary and experienced still find death there due to circumstance.
I don't believe this is exactly a foreign idea, it's just that the last several years of changes have steadily made danger less dangerous. It isn't that things are more dangerous now than before, it's that we got used to things getting easier in a generally hard-to-survive environment.
Ironically, I can remember similar discussions with either down or up arrows on when cures were first revamped, when most clans began providing food and water via npc's, and even when kanks were removed. This is just another event of the 'difficulty bar' being raised or lowered based off the current climate of player actions. There was, believe it or not, a period of time where death in the sands was the rule, not the exception, and people gathered up in cities like moths to flame, and prominent hunters made real names for themselves. This might be the opportune time to Make Cities Great Again, if desert play is more enjoyable without risk than with it.
Quote from: Bloodpaint on July 27, 2022, 04:48:38 AM
Quote from: Svalinya on July 27, 2022, 04:29:41 AMThere aren't enough doctors to go around
There is, and always is, or people that know them, I never once had to use NPCs - the amount of cures running around is silly, nearly every grebber and hunter shouldn't have a full set against every form of poison imaginable, but that's where we ended up.
We ended up there because very few of us lose more than a few characters without adjusting our play.
Raising this topic because it almost cost me my favorite character in the past.
How will item reimbursements be handled for cures? I, a non brewer, had all of my cures lost due to a reset when being strip searched by a Templar.
I put in a request that has a list of the colors/shapes of tablets and vials/liquids I had in my bag, as well as their supposed use (what they cure). Again, I have no way of verifying that these cures actually worked or their potency, and now that the items are lost staff will have no idea about those facts either.
Will we be given cures of top effectiveness, bottom effectiveness, useless lumps?
In the past when I was been given cures from a reimbursement request, they were all duds. The entire selection that I found a brewer to make and payed 2k+ for were all just useless colored lumps. Which I discovered by nearly dying to bloodburn.
Quote from: lostinspace on July 27, 2022, 05:29:29 PM
In the past when I was been given cures from a reimbursement request, they were all duds. The entire selection that I found a brewer to make and payed 2k+ for were all just useless colored lumps. Which I discovered by nearly dying to bloodburn.
Oh that was you. Glad I happened to be online. I can confirm that what you had originally was legitimate.
There's some sort of quirk (feature) where staff-loaded cures don't hold their values, and AFAIK, that includes the cures loaded on shopkeepers, unless they're "old style" cures. I'm not sure if that's been fixed yet.
if i have to coordinate with a PC to get a good poison and even if I keep it on me, it fades in real life weeks... that is really unfun maintenance grind nonsense.
I'm all for clans not being able to stockpile for years and years. But if I an independent go on some mini-quest to find the coin and the poisoner and acquire some poison, I'd like it to last a good long while. Same for cures.
p.s.
with medicinal herbs planned to be spawned randomly in a zone, both cures and advanced poisons will also be harder to create and supply requiring their own dangerous exploration. For all this work and risk, the reword should at least persist a long time for the player that keeps it on them. What other game has you work hard to attain something useful and then it disappears on its own without even being used?
Quote from: Agent_137 on July 29, 2022, 03:30:45 AM
if i have to coordinate with a PC to get a good poison and even if I keep it on me, it fades in real life weeks... that is really unfun maintenance grind nonsense.
I'm all for clans not being able to stockpile for years and years. But if I an independent go on some mini-quest to find the coin and the poisoner and acquire some poison, I'd like it to last a good long while. Same for cures.
p.s.
with medicinal herbs planned to be spawned randomly in a zone, both cures and advanced poisons will also be harder to create and supply requiring their own dangerous exploration. For all this work and risk, the reword should at least persist a long time for the player that keeps it on them. What other game has you work hard to attain something useful and then it disappears on its own without even being used?
All concerns that were addressed, I think. If the issue isn't "the change" but more "making sure its balanced"... there's really nothing we can do to discuss that.
I think they mentioned that things will likely last a good long time. But I do ascribe to the idea that if you bought a poisoned knife a year ago, it might not be AS CAPABLE anymore, because you've never really used it. I think the idea of "potency" isn't to say "useless" just "less useful".
I struggle with this idea, but I wanted to put it out there: Not every instance of "successful" PVP needs to end in death for one of the parties. Maybe a "less potent" poison can be used just to prove you COULD have killed them.
Quote from: Agent_137 on July 29, 2022, 03:30:45 AM
if i have to coordinate with a PC to get a good poison and even if I keep it on me, it fades in real life weeks... that is really unfun maintenance grind nonsense.
Are you getting it for "just in case"?
Or are you getting it for an identified need, i.e. you intend to use it?
I think the burden looks a lot more intimdiating for the first than the second. As it should?
Maybe that seems extreme, but consider this. Currently, there are players where their "just in case" poison is peraine. M*****FU****G Peraine.
Will this change make that go away? We can hope. Your "just in case" poison may be bloodburn, or grishen or something. For your identified need like an assassination you may try to get a high potency peraine/heramide/whatever so you have a much better chance of success. That seems much more balanced than folks having a peraine blade just in case.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 29, 2022, 02:08:15 PM
Quote from: Agent_137 on July 29, 2022, 03:30:45 AM
if i have to coordinate with a PC to get a good poison and even if I keep it on me, it fades in real life weeks... that is really unfun maintenance grind nonsense.
Are you getting it for "just in case"?
Or are you getting it for an identified need, i.e. you intend to use it?
I think the burden looks a lot more intimdiating for the first than the second. As it should?
Maybe that seems extreme, but consider this. Currently, there are players where their "just in case" poison is peraine. M*****FU****G Peraine.
Will this change make that go away? We can hope. Your "just in case" poison may be bloodburn, or grishen or something. For your identified need like an assassination you may try to get a high potency peraine/heramide/whatever so you have a much better chance of success. That seems much more balanced than folks having a peraine blade just in case.
There will always be people with potent 'just in case' poisons as long as they're attainable at all. The difficulty does not decrease just because you want to use it for an assassination. If you want to eliminate 'just in case' peraine, then you'll have to remove it from the game entirely.
QuoteThere will always be people with potent 'just in case' poisons as long as they're attainable at all. The difficulty does not decrease just because you want to use it for an assassination. If you want to eliminate 'just in case' peraine, then you'll have to remove it from the game entirely.
That remains to be seen. More difficult to attain, and decaying, we currently do not know how sensible it will be to keep 'just in case' potent poisons, depending on the risk of attaining them.
Quote from: Armaddict on July 29, 2022, 02:36:17 PM
QuoteThere will always be people with potent 'just in case' poisons as long as they're attainable at all. The difficulty does not decrease just because you want to use it for an assassination. If you want to eliminate 'just in case' peraine, then you'll have to remove it from the game entirely.
That remains to be seen. More difficult to attain, and decaying, we currently do not know how sensible it will be to keep 'just in case' potent poisons, depending on the risk of attaining them.
They might fall out of fashion altogether (for assassinations and 'just in case') if you make it hard enough, which seems to be part of the purpose. It's already vastly easier to use someone with AI str and a big club than any sort of poison. There's not much of a niche for assassin-like PCs anymore because brute force is just better at everything.
I'm telling you right now... if I'm playing someone who can poison your blade? I'm charging you a cart load of coin for it. Every time.
You want peraine on your blade "just in case and it wears off every RL month? Prepare to pay a couple large every RL month just for my time.
Damnit.
QuoteThey might fall out of fashion altogether (for assassinations and 'just in case') if you make it hard enough, which seems to be part of the purpose. It's already vastly easier to use someone with AI str and a big club than any sort of poison. There's not much of a niche for assassin-like PCs anymore because brute force is just better at everything.
Never quite true. Kind of a supply and demand sort of effect comes into play for poison. The less prepared for poisons you are, the more effective they are in doing what you need. The non-lethal poisons pretty much disappeared directly because of the ease of finding cures for them. The lethal ones became in demand because they are harder to cure consistently, leading to the big gripe of instant death to poison (it was a legitimate gripe). Now both cures and poisons are supposed to be harder to use. If they fall completely out of favor, people stop preparing for them, which makes them more viable again.
Brute force has its place, and is generally a more 'enjoyable' conflict because it's not locked in as instant. Even with a big fucking hammer and a free hit due to surprise attack, the advantage quickly shifts to the defender because the RNG on being 'reel locked' is relatively small, allowing the defender to react while the attacker is stunned out. It's the opposite with poisons. Poisons enable a surprise attack to build an advantage that carries over into the rest of the altercation. Brute force is actually far more reliable by depending on a bash to open the fight than it is the free first attack.
Brute force has its place, but is also sometimes completely non-viable due to environment setting or circumstance.
Honestly, these are just shallow beginnings of the deep whirlpool that is actually running a successful assassination. Plans are a real thing that vastly improve chances of success, and they need to be build to be non-specific enough to allow for differences in circumstance, while still specific enough to build off of a built advantage.
I'm in favor of poison changes because it makes these things deeper. Will people still die quickly to things? Yes. But it will require a lot more than the simplicity of 'I just keep this knife here for the next time someone needs to die' and 'I don't need to worry about this anymore because I bought one of this item'. You should see just as much efficacy possible, but that efficacy will have more moving parts to it than before, hopefully leading to more interesting preparations and deadlines and contingencies.
This is, of course, all anecdotal and rhetorical. It remains to be seen what -actual- impact this will have, but I do understand and agree with the premise.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 29, 2022, 02:08:15 PM
Quote from: Agent_137 on July 29, 2022, 03:30:45 AM
if i have to coordinate with a PC to get a good poison and even if I keep it on me, it fades in real life weeks... that is really unfun maintenance grind nonsense.
Are you getting it for "just in case"?
Or are you getting it for an identified need, i.e. you intend to use it?
I think the burden looks a lot more intimdiating for the first than the second. As it should?
Maybe that seems extreme, but consider this. Currently, there are players where their "just in case" poison is peraine. M*****FU****G Peraine.
Will this change make that go away? We can hope. Your "just in case" poison may be bloodburn, or grishen or something. For your identified need like an assassination you may try to get a high potency peraine/heramide/whatever so you have a much better chance of success. That seems much more balanced than folks having a peraine blade just in case.
I agree with the goal of increasing time to kill by reducing the usage of poisons, especially peraine and heramide, on just-in-case blades and arrows.
I agree with the goal of un-trivializing access to poison and cures in clans by forcing them to degrade when lying around in a storeroom.
I don't agree with changes that cause PCs to lose things they keep in their pockets that they had to work really hard for. Even PCs with brew and poison will need to go to great lengths to prepare cures and poisons. And an accomplished hunter should be prepared with a variety of cures and poison pastes, no? What is the witcher without his potions or the batman without his tool belt?
QuoteWhat is the witcher without his potions or the batman without his tool belt?
Interestingly, this could be something to expand on as the changes develop; perhaps cures in vials would keep far longer than tablets, but they are heavier, require more to make, and take up more space. Perhaps different poisons could have different ingredients added to the mix that lower potency, or change the poison effect altogether, to make it keep longer.
This is basically the beginnings of actual alchemy that makes sense. Tradeoffs, specific herbs being useful for this or that, and a knowledge base that goes deeper.
Witchers can kill 10 men without potions. At once.
As a habitual owner of peraine "just in case" belt knives for 20 years, shots fired. Also, totally support these changes.
I'd kind of like to see a sort of alchemy between poisons and even cures. Maybe some of the more deadly or interesting combinations are achieved through substance interaction rather than delivery.
Maybe some poisons are more or less effective depending on the liquid or food type they are in. Maybe Grishen when combined with Ocotillo wine creates a delayed but very potent enhancing effect. Maybe if you smoke Thodeliv afterwards it creates a heramide like effect, and your assassin knows you always enjoy a smoke of sweet after dinner.
Anyways — I appreciate that poisons are becoming more complex and less predictable. I like they won't last forever. I always felt getting a peraine blade was a "achievement unlocked" moment that was more meta than it should be in actuality.
Again overall I like all the changes.
We'll need to wait to see how good common poison becomes, but cure potency does seem to help balance that fact you need two or three people with the right skills to make good use of certain deadly poison. Consistantly carrying full sets of strong potent cures might be reserved for people who truely fear assasination. It is kinda funny that only the new proposed subclass physician seems to be the best choice for advanced poison making.
If there is anything I don't like its that learning the recipes might promote cheating. I really hope its not so complicated to figure out that people need staff telling them or know someone willing to share an ooc list.
On a side note, i know dwarves are strong but a bit more so now after this change?
From the dwarf helpfiles:
QuoteSome composition of their bodies and minds tends to make dwarves highly resistant to magick of all kinds, and their high endurance usually renders them virtually (or literally) immune to poisons
Chedya (the natural version) seems to lose potency extremely fast, literally less than a RL week before it's useless. Is that working as intended?
Quote from: Nao on August 01, 2022, 02:02:04 PM
Chedya (the natural version) seems to lose potency extremely fast, literally less than a RL week before it's useless. Is that working as intended?
No, should be fixed for NEW ones you gather from the wild. If you lost any prematurely, put in a request.
Regarding Poison and Cure Degradation.
Is the degradation design linear?
eg - It takes 500 hours to drop from level 3 to level 2, and 500 hours to drop from level 2 to level 1, and 500 hours to be removed from level 1.
Or is the degradation designed differently between the levels?
eg - It takes 500 hours to drop from level 3 to level 2, and 750 hours to drop from level 2 to level 1, and 1000 hours to be removed from level 1.
Quote from: mansa on August 07, 2022, 12:01:56 PM
Regarding Poison and Cure Degradation.
Is the degradation design linear?
eg - It takes 500 hours to drop from level 3 to level 2, and 500 hours to drop from level 2 to level 1, and 500 hours to be removed from level 1.
Or is the degradation designed differently between the levels?
eg - It takes 500 hours to drop from level 3 to level 2, and 750 hours to drop from level 2 to level 1, and 1000 hours to be removed from level 1.
It's not linear, so more sorta like the 2nd one.
How long are the current natural grishen poisons and crafted jars supposed to last, on a rough scale? Hours, days, weeks, months?
Quote from: Nao on August 11, 2022, 11:32:18 AM
How long are the current natural grishen poisons and crafted jars supposed to last, on a rough scale? Hours, days, weeks, months?
Crafted jars of paste and vials of poison are in weeks to months, depending on the poison type and potency (the higher, the longer, so that means with higher skill your poisons will last longer).
The raw ingredient poison object, like say an animal gland, days to weeks depending on what it is and the poison type.
Again, the only one utilizing the new system is Grishen for now.
Like other decay items, is this 'halted' if the items are on a logged out character?
Quote from: Halaster on August 11, 2022, 02:33:21 PM
Quote from: Nao on August 11, 2022, 11:32:18 AM
How long are the current natural grishen poisons and crafted jars supposed to last, on a rough scale? Hours, days, weeks, months?
Crafted jars of paste and vials of poison are in weeks to months, depending on the poison type and potency (the higher, the longer, so that means with higher skill your poisons will last longer).
The raw ingredient poison object, like say an animal gland, days to weeks depending on what it is and the poison type.
Again, the only one utilizing the new system is Grishen for now.
I think the timer on the jar items is off and it's decaying too quickly. I'll do some more testing to double-check.
Lit torches are losing duration while logged off. I would test if the poisons are as well.
Quote from: Halcyon on August 11, 2022, 08:19:01 PM
Lit torches are losing duration while logged off. I would test if the poisons are as well.
It has been less than three hours, I don't think that's it.
Believe poison timers are RL time based, not logged in time.
I was wrong about the timer, but something else is wrong. I put in a bug report with the details.
Quote from: Riev on August 11, 2022, 04:50:16 PM
Like other decay items, is this 'halted' if the items are on a logged out character?
No, they continue to degrade even while you're logged out. That's why I raised the timeframe a bit more than I had originally intended.
How are poison saves gonna work now, in combination with poison immunity and higher potency poisons?
Quote from: betweenford on August 12, 2022, 09:29:10 AM
How are poison saves gonna work now, in combination with poison immunity and higher potency poisons?
I haven't touched immunity at all so far.
Saves will not make you just ignore a poison any longer, it will just make you suffer a lowered potency. In that regard, poisons are going to become more harmful. But, lesser potency poisons aren't typically going to be lethal, unless of course you're already in bad shape. That is not in place yet, we're still on the "old" system. I'll make an announcement and more details when that happens.
Should the recent terradin changes existing and fairly fresh terradin items in game? Should they show up as
inert poison with an inert, shiny sheen or does that mean they're decayed? Or have they been deprecated altogether? The terradin helpfile suggests a different source now.
Quote from: Nao on August 21, 2022, 11:22:25 AM
Should the recent terradin changes existing and fairly fresh terradin items in game? Should they show up as
inert poison with an inert, shiny sheen or does that mean they're decayed? Or have they been deprecated altogether? The terradin helpfile suggests a different source now.
It's the same source, I copied the "rotting fruits and molds" verbatim from the old help file, just went into more detail "found in the more green areas of the world".
Inert means they have decayed. It's possible you have some old ones that didn't update properly. Feel free to put in a request (or hit me up) and I'll replace them. The -intent- was that existing ones would start with a proper timer, but something must have gone wrong.
Don't peraine items decay too, per the previous system?
Quote from: betweenford on August 24, 2022, 06:46:17 AM
Don't peraine items decay too, per the previous system?
No, see https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58086.msg1080585.html#msg1080585
notes from discord chatter:
Current peraine will be the highest form.
Old grishen is midway on the new scale.
Low strength cures lessen the effects of high strength poisons, but don't remove it
Poisons can stack but it takes a lot.
Cures and brewed poisons decay even when logged out over the timescale of weeks and months.
I'll be going over this thread to summarize any factoids not in helpfiles already so we can be 1 to 1.
Quote from: betweenford on August 24, 2022, 06:46:17 AM
Don't peraine items decay too, per the previous system?
Yes there are still scripts on all peraine/heramide objs. I anticipate once these poisons are converted to the new poison system we will remove them and let the new system take care of the aging.
Is there an adjective that describes cure tablets that no-longer function as a cure?
So, you have a "tablet", a "old tablet", and "non-functioning tablet", or something similar?
Quote from: mansa on August 24, 2022, 04:56:51 PM
Is there an adjective that describes cure tablets that no-longer function as a cure?
So, you have a "tablet", a "old tablet", and "non-functioning tablet", or something similar?
old
What level of cure can you make with master brew? Do the ingredients matter more than with the previous versions of cures?
Nearly the best tablet craftable, nearly the best vial craftable. To make the best, you would also need poisoning.
Is every herb of the same taste of equal quality to other herbs?
Quote from: Lotion on August 30, 2022, 01:15:34 PM
Is every herb of the same taste of equal quality to other herbs?
Afaik, yes. The only difference is the potential colour output.
The most recent announcement says the poison updates are done. But what about Skellebane?
Quote from: Nao on August 31, 2022, 01:21:33 PM
The most recent announcement says the poison updates are done. But what about Skellebane?
The real question is "But what about Loosetongue?"
Quote from: Nao on August 31, 2022, 01:21:33 PM
The most recent announcement says the poison updates are done. But what about Skellebane?
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58086.msg1080764.html#msg1080764
Should successfully poisoning something with a <strength> poison, like
You assess a tiny jar of icky poison...
...it is primarily made of plant.
...is a <strength> poison!
...you detect an adjective, adjective noun.
...it is very light.
always result in an adjective, adjective noun on the weapon?
I know it will decay eventually, I'm asking about the result immediately after poisoning the weapon.
Quote from: Nao on September 16, 2022, 01:10:35 PM
Should successfully poisoning something with a <strength> poison, like
You assess a tiny jar of icky poison...
...it is primarily made of plant.
...is a <strength> poison!
...you detect an adjective, adjective noun.
...it is very light.
always result in an adjective, adjective noun on the weapon?
I know it will decay eventually, I'm asking about the result immediately after poisoning the weapon.
The answer is something you can find out in game, if you have the appropriate skill.
I know what the result is/has been in game. It's not what I expected. This may be intentional, or it may be a bug. Thus the question if it's intended to work like I described.
Quote from: Nao on September 16, 2022, 04:03:44 PM
I know what the result is/has been in game. It's not what I expected. This may be intentional, or it may be a bug. Thus the question if it's intended to work like I described.
Definitely deserving of a request then. If you have a log and date-stamp of the attempt, even better.
RE: Tablet Cures Shapes:
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58437.0.html
I have a request:
Could we put a 'pill shaper' item in all the NPC herbalist shops in the major villages?
Tuluk, Luir's Outpost, Blackwing Outpost, Allanak, and Red Storm?
Thanks!
Quote from: Halaster on August 12, 2022, 02:32:33 PM
Quote from: betweenford on August 12, 2022, 09:29:10 AM
How are poison saves gonna work now, in combination with poison immunity and higher potency poisons?
I haven't touched immunity at all so far.
Saves will not make you just ignore a poison any longer, it will just make you suffer a lowered potency. In that regard, poisons are going to become more harmful. But, lesser potency poisons aren't typically going to be lethal, unless of course you're already in bad shape. That is not in place yet, we're still on the "old" system. I'll make an announcement and more details when that happens.
Does immunity the PC may have from the old system provide any benefit to the new system? Is the plan to port that over once immunity gets updated?
And regarding poison decay, do you expect to have mundane items that would slow poison and cure decay? Magickal spells/objects that might slow it?
Quote from: TragicMagick on September 20, 2022, 10:27:21 PM
Quote from: Halaster on August 12, 2022, 02:32:33 PM
Quote from: betweenford on August 12, 2022, 09:29:10 AM
How are poison saves gonna work now, in combination with poison immunity and higher potency poisons?
I haven't touched immunity at all so far.
Saves will not make you just ignore a poison any longer, it will just make you suffer a lowered potency. In that regard, poisons are going to become more harmful. But, lesser potency poisons aren't typically going to be lethal, unless of course you're already in bad shape. That is not in place yet, we're still on the "old" system. I'll make an announcement and more details when that happens.
Does immunity the PC may have from the old system provide any benefit to the new system? Is the plan to port that over once immunity gets updated?
And regarding poison decay, do you expect to have mundane items that would slow poison and cure decay? Magickal spells/objects that might slow it?
1. Yes if you had it. I'm undecided on what to do about immunity, but I'll probably update it soon to work with the new system.
2. I have no plans, but I'm open to suggestions.
I've been gathering some feedback during a discussion in Discord, and here are some points brought up:
If these two variables were changed:
* the time it takes from ingesting a cure before the cure takes affect should be shorter than what it is now.
* the time it takes for a cure to degrading in proficiency should be longer.
If the available of cures for offpeak players where increased
If the price of cures were adjusted (lesser, assuming you would eat a cure /before/ you leave the city every time)
If certain poisonous creatures were decreased in population
If poison affects were decreased in time, and cure affects were increased in duration
Bloodburn doesn't prevent healing (only at higher poison level)
Allow lower level bandage skill help against poisons, and not just master bandage.
But what is the goal?
Making it easier to survive against poisons generally?
Making it easier to survive against NPCs with poisons generally?
Making it easier to survive against easy NPCs with poisons that are fairly widespread generally (which is like only 2 poison types)?
I know this may sound pedantic, but we also have the overall goals of the poison change, to make poisons outside of ones that completely incapacitate PCs useful and dangerous to PCs (embedded in this is not too easily cured). So some suggestions and goals have better or worse alignment with this.
@brokkr I'll also recapp from the discord chat the issues that led to the suggestions Mansa posted. This is a recap, not my personal opinion which may or may not agree with these:
1. Dying because you got jumped by cilops/angk, knocked down to half HP, poisoned, and only have a couple of store bought tablets is entirely too harsh given the prevalence of the NPCs. We're locking low and even mid-level PCs out of entire sectors of the game.
2. Maintaining cures is a lot of grinding either in effort or coin, and due to them decaying in real time it's unfair to players with lower play time and off-peakers who can't find apothecaries. Longer decay times or disabling decay when logged out would make it less unfair to low play-timers and off-peakers.
In my opinion,
The play of the game has changed with the new cures. Players are expecting to get poisoned, eat a cure, and be safe, and this isn't happening.
I think the current game system with cures could use a change to be more like the previous iteration of cures:
a) Cures should take effect much quicker than it current does. Players want to know that they have done something correctly and the game will respond with "Yes, typed the right information at the right time", rather than waiting to see if they pushed the buttons in the right combination.
This is a .. gameplay and response mechanic, and the current delay of "Yes, you did the right combination of buttons to survive." is very unsatisfactory. Player triggers should be near immediate, game triggers can be delayed.
b) If you taken a cure before you leave on your adventure, the game should be explicit in telling the players they have a 'cure protection' going on, and this 'cure protection' should last the typical outdoor adventure time, something like 9 hours in game, or 90 minutes.
This type of gameplay mechanic should be the goal for this change, and players aren't doing it because the "everybody get your buffs before you go outside" doesn't last long enough.
c) The price of cures is expensive, if the designed gameplay is to consume them before every outdoor adventure.
I think recent change in cures hasn't been a good experience with the playerbase.
I think most of the other poisons are fine after the poison changes, but maybe the weakest variant of bloodburn could use some tweaks and adjustments, especially when it comes down to its side effects and possibly its effects when someone is in critical condition.
As a tremendously weak poison, instead of its current effects which are the same regardless of if someone is in critical condition... what of it just made critical recovery rolls more difficult while also communicating this to the player?
Outside of being in critical condition, the other side effects could stand to be more similar to certain other poisons, where rest in a relatively safe spot can or might combat the effect of the poison, but again, also impaired and making your regen worse.
Blocking all regen sucks from a playability standpoint. Nothing like afking for an hour because your stamina won't regen. Another oddity is that flat blocking all regen doesn't scale with poison potency, the worst is as good as the best if they both reduce regen to 0.
Currently:
This is weak bloodburn, it hurts a little and prevents all hp regen.
This is perfect bloodburn, it hurts a lot and prevents all hp regen.
IMO it'd be better as reductions of regen caps:
This is weak bloodburn, it hurts a little and lowers how high you can regen to 85% of your normal HP.
This is perfect bloodburn, it hurts a lot and lowers the cap you can regen to 30% of your normal HP.
Or as a reduction on regen amounts:
This is weak bloodburn, it hurts a little and lowers how much you heal naturally by 1. So now you heal 4 instead of 5.
This is strong bloodburn, it hurts a lot and lowers how much you heal naturally by 5. So now you heal 1 instead of 5.
This approach also leaves room for classes with improved regen types to not suffer as much. Strong bloodburn might completely block your ability to regen for some classes, while allowing a small amount to go through for classes more focused on combat and healing.
Maaaate. Stamina regen nonsense was a bug, now fixed. Ay.
Grishen still does but it is what it always do.
Does having stamina regen with bloodburn mean sleeping while poisoned with bloodburn is no longer an immediate (if drawn out) death sentence?
Quote from: Dracul on November 13, 2022, 04:56:54 PM
Does having stamina regen with bloodburn mean sleeping while poisoned with bloodburn is no longer an immediate (if drawn out) death sentence?
I'm not quite following on that one. I don't see what you mean by sleeping with bloodburn when it blocked stamina regen being a death sentence.
Quote from: Halaster on November 13, 2022, 06:05:12 PM
Quote from: Dracul on November 13, 2022, 04:56:54 PM
Does having stamina regen with bloodburn mean sleeping while poisoned with bloodburn is no longer an immediate (if drawn out) death sentence?
I'm not quite following on that one. I don't see what you mean by sleeping with bloodburn when it blocked stamina regen being a death sentence.
While it may not have 100% guaranteed a death, if you aren't at full enough stamina to wake up, if you go to sleep and can't regain stamina, you can't wake up. If you chose to attempt to sleep you would then be locked into that choice.
I've lost more than a couple characters by going to sleep after being bloodburn poisoned...first time I thought "maybe they can sleep it off better".
Quote from: Dracul on November 13, 2022, 06:24:00 PM
Quote from: Halaster on November 13, 2022, 06:05:12 PM
Quote from: Dracul on November 13, 2022, 04:56:54 PM
Does having stamina regen with bloodburn mean sleeping while poisoned with bloodburn is no longer an immediate (if drawn out) death sentence?
I'm not quite following on that one. I don't see what you mean by sleeping with bloodburn when it blocked stamina regen being a death sentence.
While it may not have 100% guaranteed a death, if you aren't at full enough stamina to wake up, if you go to sleep and can't regain stamina, you can't wake up. If you chose to attempt to sleep you would then be locked into that choice.
I've lost more than a couple characters by going to sleep after being bloodburn poisoned...first time I thought "maybe they can sleep it off better".
Ahah, OK I follow you now. Then yeah, this change would save you from that scenario as Bloodburn no longer prevents stamina drain.
Quote from: mansa on November 11, 2022, 11:19:05 AM
I think recent change in cures hasn't been a good experience with the playerbase.
They never should have gotten rid of "red cures cure blood burn, green cures terradin," etc in my opinion. It's just another confusing skill gap that benefits veterans, those with access to spreadsheets, and a very small number of subguilds.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 14, 2022, 01:54:35 AM
Quote from: mansa on November 11, 2022, 11:19:05 AM
I think recent change in cures hasn't been a good experience with the playerbase.
They never should have gotten rid of "red cures cure blood burn, green cures terradin," etc in my opinion. It's just another confusing skill gap that benefits veterans, those with access to spreadsheets, and a very small number of subguilds.
Same. That was a very easy system that anyone could learn in 10 minutes or less and didn't require endless testing. Testing which, now, is much riskier than ever, as far as I can tell. I could be proved wrong, but I won't be, because that's a system I absolutely refuse to engage with now. There are enough stupidly risky things that could kill a character unintentionally without me looking for them actively. There have been many changes I have really liked (like the change from the old 6 guild system to the new class system, big fan), but this is one I absolutely cannot stand and has ruined an entire area of the game for me.
There were 3 main tablets (all of them sold by npcs), that cured 3 main common poisons, and basically everyone knew what they were, and that was equity. If you wanted your poison to be scary you had to find an exotic poison and take a risk doing it, same as now, but if you were using common poisons, you had to expect people might have common cures. That's just one more area that newbies are hugely disadvantaged because of 'find out IC' when... I mean, if you're able to access brew and poisoning so commonly, at least have the 3 most common ones (red, yellow and green, as they were), be common knowledge and relatively easily available. The stuff beyond that was still pretty obscure. I didn't know it, and just knowing those three things made the game fairly survivable as far as dealing with the poisons from common wildlife, which is all you really needed to know that for. But that's a whole ass rant from me.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 14, 2022, 01:54:35 AM
Quote from: mansa on November 11, 2022, 11:19:05 AM
I think recent change in cures hasn't been a good experience with the playerbase.
They never should have gotten rid of "red cures cure blood burn, green cures terradin," etc in my opinion. It's just another confusing skill gap that benefits veterans, those with access to spreadsheets, and a very small number of subguilds.
I agree, particularly when something is happening in high-stress situations in game, and you are panicking IRL, trying to remember which pocket this is in and which ones you put in your quiver.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 02, 2022, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 14, 2022, 01:54:35 AM
Quote from: mansa on November 11, 2022, 11:19:05 AM
I think recent change in cures hasn't been a good experience with the playerbase.
They never should have gotten rid of "red cures cure blood burn, green cures terradin," etc in my opinion. It's just another confusing skill gap that benefits veterans, those with access to spreadsheets, and a very small number of subguilds.
I agree, particularly when something is happening in high-stress situations in game, and you are panicking IRL, trying to remember which pocket this is in and which ones you put in your quiver.
The cures being different colors has been in the game since January 2017, so about 5 years. (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52152.0.html)
You can purchase different vials that have different keywords on them.
example: "kzul", "scorpion", "hexagonal", "triangular", etc
You can also purchase a pill-press item, which will append a keyword to the front of pills.
example: "square", "triangular", "oval", etc
You can also make the pills specific colors, based on the original herbs you use.
"blue", "pink", "red", "yellow", etc.
Trying to find the right keyword for the right pill isn't the recent change I'm expressing. The recent change is that pills are
not immediately effective, and they have a "protection buff" that lasts a while, to pre-emptively protect against poisoning.
The thing that confuses me about poisons in particular is they don't work the same as cures.
So with a cure, I can get a tablet or vial and assess or taste it to get the it tastes like pink and blue.
But with poisons that doesn't work, so how is one to discover what flavors poison is?
You have to get the flavors from the intermediary crafting step, not the actual poison paste.
Quote from: Brokkr on December 02, 2022, 01:18:51 PM
You have to get the flavors from the intermediary crafting step, not the actual poison paste.
What does that mean? The natural occurrence of poisons in the world doesn't have an intermediary step.
If it's a brewed poison, how are you supposed to learn the brew, without being able to analyze a natural one?
Quote from: mansa on December 02, 2022, 12:41:02 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 02, 2022, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 14, 2022, 01:54:35 AM
Quote from: mansa on November 11, 2022, 11:19:05 AM
I think recent change in cures hasn't been a good experience with the playerbase.
They never should have gotten rid of "red cures cure blood burn, green cures terradin," etc in my opinion. It's just another confusing skill gap that benefits veterans, those with access to spreadsheets, and a very small number of subguilds.
I agree, particularly when something is happening in high-stress situations in game, and you are panicking IRL, trying to remember which pocket this is in and which ones you put in your quiver.
The cures being different colors has been in the game since January 2017, so about 5 years. (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52152.0.html)
I know, and I still hate it. It's a bad change, as is the one towards bandages that makes anything but the highest end ones useful for regenerating health below your normal cap. Has lead to way more gaminess than a relatively naturalistic system before.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 02, 2022, 03:28:42 PM
Quote from: mansa on December 02, 2022, 12:41:02 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 02, 2022, 12:34:29 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 14, 2022, 01:54:35 AM
Quote from: mansa on November 11, 2022, 11:19:05 AM
I think recent change in cures hasn't been a good experience with the playerbase.
They never should have gotten rid of "red cures cure blood burn, green cures terradin," etc in my opinion. It's just another confusing skill gap that benefits veterans, those with access to spreadsheets, and a very small number of subguilds.
I agree, particularly when something is happening in high-stress situations in game, and you are panicking IRL, trying to remember which pocket this is in and which ones you put in your quiver.
The cures being different colors has been in the game since January 2017, so about 5 years. (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52152.0.html)
I know, and I still hate it. It's a bad change, as is the one towards bandages that makes anything but the highest end ones useful for regenerating health below your normal cap. Has lead to way more gaminess than a relatively naturalistic system before.
I haven't messed with bandages much but agree about the tablets. Just one more thing that would have been really easy for newbies to grasp but now gets added to the list of 'find out IC' stuff (not everyone likes to turn everything into a puzzle, I don't) which puts people willing to engage with a needlessly arcane system at an advantage over those who don't have a set of spreadsheets or knowledge from having created the system. There were still exotic poisons before, and plenty of them. But the ones that belonged to all the wildlife that is everywhere had easy, easy to attain and remember and identify, fairly reliable cures, and that aided the game with what they call playability.
So Armageddon in general, even before this change was essentially ruled by OOC information.
I know that's gonna get me some flak saying that but it is what it is.
Examples of this are rife in the game.
One that -most- plants are static, which I think I saw in a news update they are changing so hopefully they do for all of them. So having static plants isn't really an issue if they are easily discoverable by people, but the way the game is designed they are not. So you can literally walk past the plant o poison or cures every day for years and never know it because you didn't decide to do a grid by grid search. However, after that long you can see the critters hiding three grids away with scan, but not the dead body or the plant that's been there for years.
Now this isn't just a gripe against game design, it also points towards my point of ooc knowledge. If someone was showed ten years ago that plant A is in this very random out of the way gridsquare that nobody ever visits except to get plant A, then the only way that people know of it is one of two ways. They were told, either IC or OOC by searching the other board.
So if they were told IC, that's better than OOC right? Well when you drill down and think about it, yes and no. Let me explain. I'm Pariah and I know from ten years ago that plant a is there, I play mostly hunters so that info somehow trickles down through every single hunter to reach my dude, is that sorta cheating cause I'm keeping ooc knowledge?
(https://media1.giphy.com/media/3oEduUh81kBsEQXIuA/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47lhm5s53m7uowolyva3lxrvw6mew5kah5p52lwkdc&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
But in my experience things like that tend to be handwaved as, "He found out through an NPC." or some other such bullshit right?
But what is the ultimate problem? That a new player without years of experience doesn't have the benefit of that prior ooc knowledge, using purely the game systems outside of begging everyone they know where plant a is, they can't find out unless they literally do a grid search of the map, e e e n w w w n e e e n w w w and so on. So are there people out there that will do that and get their excel spreadsheets or graph paper out and do that? (Sure there already are a few outdated ass maps out there just from that) but is it fair to the newbie stalker/scout who wants to explore? Nope.
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/LT4Op9AT7MWeA/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47ni6tv5bp9gyspwbjgv1bca64j05x1yinxm48dkta&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
Same goes for poison and cure lists, they exist in the wild, but not officially by the game and if you want to find out in game it's so hard because of the above statement of not seeing the tree of flowers you ride within one block of daily, just because you didn't want to become Dora the explorer and map each grid square. But I can see a hidden snake from a football field away.
(https://media4.giphy.com/media/yDChhXhGE6Ma4/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47n6ew2lcn0qdwh5c247kymzz05bfjuwembsd9kvaz&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
So until they somehow implement plants growing sporadically and not in static (at least all of them) locations, and poison and cure have a way to discover them that isn't pester every character you meet to tell you flavors or rely on the very custodians of ooc knowledge that have kept it since god knows when, these systems will always be dominated by -those in the know- by simple ooc knowledge.
(https://media0.giphy.com/media/kvQb0oRiksFy4WxWkb/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47h4m343bzqkf4pr4lhw59rgws4fd3xzs10btsvgbs&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
Edit: It's also weird that certain stabbing weapons can't be poisoned. I never understood that. If it's stabby, it should be poisonable.
The exotic shit always was, the less exotic shit, you used to have red, yellow, and green cures sold on npcs who'd tell you what made what, all of which were craftable via dyes with the proper tints which cured the three main poisons you'd come across via npcs in the wild, and joining the byn or visiting the npc herbalist would both readily offer you all the knowledge you needed to access these cures (even if it was via buying them in the shop or buying the ingredients and making them, which you could tell the dye colors by analyze on a bought tablet). Again, the exotic stuff like loosetongue and perraine would send you chasing a pc for information, but stuff like bloodburn and skellebain was easy as hell to cure, so you weren't really inconvenienced constantly and terribly by the wildlife around you. Yes, it made it more difficult for basic pcs to poison you with stuff that was common and have it take. But you could also have viable hunter pcs without shelling out more for cures than water as it sounds like is easily a possibility with the new system. And in a desert world that seems unreasonable as a metric. But that's just me.
This new system is way more governed by metaknowledge than the old one, as cures are now impenetrably complicated for anyone without brewing (or a spreadsheet to sniff out what does what). I'm glad that acquiring poison isn't as static and prone to meta abuse as it was, but there's been a huge knock on playability for the other 80% of the playerbase who's on the receiving end of that shit.
I think it is good to remember that a lot of the earlier muds has a lot of content based on puzzles and that some people like figuring stuff out like this. If may not be your cup of tea, but there needs to be a mix of both content types and challenges.
Quote from: Brokkr on December 02, 2022, 08:12:49 PM
I think it is good to remember that a lot of the earlier muds has a lot of content based on puzzles and that some people like figuring stuff out like this. If may not be your cup of tea, but there needs to be a mix of both content types and challenges.
This is so hard to discuss without giving away things...
I'm all for puzzles and challenges that are surmountable by trial and error or logic.
But even if I take and combine two different herbs over and over till I find something that doesn't taste like ash, I have no idea what it cures or what poison I've created.
It's sorta a chicken or the egg scenario. Yeah I can analyze or taste a pill or vial, but there has to be a vial to taste first.
So if you can't find a skelebain cure, you can't logically figure out what the cure is without some type of outward info.
Maybe if all the weaker cures were sold by NPCs we could just go buy one and reverse engineer it, but they aren't at least not in my part of the world.
Also, slight critique in line with the weirdness of Foraging, how some rocks are named and others aren't.
Why does poison just have colors instead of the assess prompt, on a person with the poisoning skill, not just say, this is bloodburn, this is skelebain? Why the goofy colors?
When you type craft branch and turn it into a club, it's assumed the leather wrapping on the base of the club for a handle is just essential knowledge you've picked up with making the craft.
A sharpened stone into a sword, same deal with the hilt or leather wrapping. So knowledge is assumed in the crafting system that you just know certain things, but for some reason, when it comes to poison, it's treated like it's Voldamort in Harry Potter.
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/LLxwPAjfpLak8/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47go7zwa4zg21g1id6c5m6dk7w50sk95jfihqpuytq&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
I think the current poison/cure system would be fine without the current theft code or the current rot code. With either combination, its a little much.
There are some side effects that will occur from making it harder to travel between places. I suspect we are vaguebooking about second order effects like these.
Fine, I'm just going to tell you.
You can, especially with a buddy, force people or mobs like rats, to get poisoned, then apply a variety of cures until you see symptoms change. (said with humour)
I always felt 'learning all the cures' was a Noble's goal, where as buying recipes, stealing them, tribes carrying the knowledge over, that would be the norm among commoners and non city based tribal chars. Then again, that won't stop me from trying, and I do agree that it'll likely take me to the end of Armageddon to actually get all that knowledge.
I really can't stand that some people complain and complain and basically demand to be told what to do until some innocent person tells exactly what to do, it seems abusive. I don't think we should cave in to this kind of foot-stomping.
Can confirm absolutely that this does not give any advantage to "veterans" whatsoever, seeing as I am not, and looking at the people who are complaining.
(https://i.imgur.com/EbIyz31.gif)
And can confirm that the poison changes have trivialized poison so much that it is
now useless in most real situations, while much more powerful instant combat commands have not been affected
at all. We should be instead looking at why it is it acceptable for these commands to exist still, when useful poison is not.
All it does is penalize people who would prefer to play one type of character over another, but that option is now removed if they want to be useful in 1v1 situations, which is what nearly everything usually is. It seems like it was some extremely short-sighted changes that should not have been done without looking at balance of other options.Why should one be made useless in real situations, but not the others? If a combat command can't be "cured", why should a poison that has had a LOT more work put into it be able to be so trivially removed? Why should everything be easy?
This is made worse that some characters can even accidentally kill just by typing it even without any extra commands,
balance is so out there that it's just ridiculously in favor of certain types of characters now.
Quote from: Bloodpaint on July 26, 2022, 08:47:05 PMIf someone can just eat the most basic of cures to live through the most complex poisons, why bother with any of it when magick or someone with high melee combat already are more likely to actually kill [instantly]] than give a little TICKLE and eat a 60 coin tablet? I don't know game statistics but from what I have seen magick and combat are way way way more what causes people to die, and magick is just "new game+ mode" rather than having any disadvantages, at the moment, especially since they can have both now.
Lets have a new era of interaction between characters and remove all vending machines for cures and poisons (and make all NPC created stuff inert) since they are usually used in interaction with other characters - it's not needed at all, there's always SO many characters that are willing to help, even through friends of friends - it shouldn't be possible to get any of this stuff without characters actually taking risks or roleplaying with other characters.
Also lets have some IC laws regulating who is allowed access to cures, and that they have to be screened by Templars before being allowed - create a black market :D Bearing in mind that none of these are things that the average citizens that don't leave the walls should be experiencing, and the more expensive they are, the more the opinion would be... Why should this random person be allowed cures for the exotic poisons that their "betters" use to get rid of people that are problems to them? "If we allow this person that never leaves the walls to have bloodburn cures, we might need to actually waste something expensive later on this person that doesn't currently have much value to our totalitarian government right now?" I think a lot of interesting plots would probably get started off by them becoming something people envy each other for. Or wondering why mister normal grey cloak has templar-rated exotics.
(https://i.imgur.com/cZ03iqX.gif)
Quote from: Brokkr on December 02, 2022, 08:12:49 PM
I think it is good to remember that a lot of the earlier muds has a lot of content based on puzzles and that some people like figuring stuff out like this. If may not be your cup of tea, but there needs to be a mix of both content types and challenges.
I think it's good to remember, that not everyone has all of the game knowledge and massive years dumped into having FO everything IC already, or a team of people who also know everything at their disposal, and instead have to just deal with the end of the stick that is forced on them. So maybe, some of us would love to have a lot less "puzzles" and "figuring stuff out" when the average expectant result of learning (very little if anything valuable) is PC death.
Quote from: GreenTransient on December 03, 2022, 07:00:03 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on December 02, 2022, 08:12:49 PM
I think it is good to remember that a lot of the earlier muds has a lot of content based on puzzles and that some people like figuring stuff out like this. If may not be your cup of tea, but there needs to be a mix of both content types and challenges.
I think it's good to remember, that not everyone has all of the game knowledge and massive years dumped into having FO everything IC already, or a team of people who also know everything at their disposal, and instead have to just deal with the end of the stick that is forced on them. So maybe, some of us would love to have a lot less "puzzles" and "figuring stuff out" when the average expectant result of learning (very little if anything valuable) is PC death.
Quote from: Bloodpaint on December 03, 2022, 05:43:50 AMCan confirm absolutely that this does not give any advantage to "veterans" whatsoever, seeing as I am not, and looking at the people who are complaining.
Why should you get special treatment when everyone gets the same stick and has the same chance to explore what the stick does, in different ways? My first character figured out most of it through RP with other characters - without having much reliable advice on hand.
If we are truly AGAINST meta-information (a lot of this stuff sounds like people angry that their old info isn't useful anymore), if we really truly want to level the playing field, it would be better if everything changed every 1 RL year, randomly.
Can we please take a step back a moment and keep in mind that there are people behind the screens. Make sure your choice of words aren't too accusatory or can be misinterpreted into something offensive.
It's not fun for others to have what was there taken away forever, because of just a few very loud people on a forum, it's important to consider that when sweeping changes are made like these, there's usually something taken away, for whatever is changed, and it's hard for most people to speak up since we can't get into specifics. Yes, it puts people on the defensive, because already having the rug pulled away from underneath and then people saying go further, it isn't a nice feeling. I hope you know how I feel now.
Yes, of course! But, I just hate to see things become heated. It's easy to get passionate about things, especially something that makes you very frustrated! However, it usually solves nothing to get overly defensive. It's good to take a step back for a moment, breathe, make even come back to the conversation before replying. Being too quick to respond often leads to people saying things they don't mean or something too harsh, you know?
I'm in no way trying to invalidate your feelings, though! I hope that isn't what I came across doing. ;-;
Quote from: geminferno on December 03, 2022, 08:50:28 AM
Can we please take a step back a moment and keep in mind that there are people behind the screens. Make sure your choice of words aren't too accusatory or can be misinterpreted into something offensive.
I want to mirror this sentiment, and also say sorry if any of my conversation in here has came off in a way derogatory against the creative efforts of the coders and staff in general. My intent is just to make the system better, to point out some things I see as flaws and downsides that can be improved.
I will say that looking at my original account that got banned, I've been here since 2007 and I don't recall much working with the old poison system outside of being poisoned by it and knowing the red pill cures bloodburn and the green pill cures vomit poison.
Now as I said before and there is no reason to rehash all the reasons, I feel that the current system is flawed because of that need for ooc knowledge to learn what's what. Not because it's not cool. In fact I think it's pretty damn interesting the whole mash, pill, vial thing. It just saddens me that I could be making cures for things that will ultimately kill me, but might not be able to due to not having ooc knowledge and not ic knowledge.
But yeah as this person said, keep it constructive and not flamey.
Quote from: Bloodpaint on December 03, 2022, 05:43:50 AM
stuff
Sounds like you want to make the game harder and more tedious to play for no particular reason other than MUH REALIZMMM
Quote from: Svalinya on December 03, 2022, 02:01:39 PM
Quote from: Bloodpaint on December 03, 2022, 05:43:50 AM
stuff
Sounds like you want to make the game harder and more tedious to play for no particular reason other than MUH REALIZMMM
Sounds like you want to make the game easier and more boring to play for no particular reason other than IT'S TOO HARDDDD.(sorry for anyone else that had to read that, but it's important to help translate when people need it)
It was said that the reason was to make fights last longer, but obviously that failed because all people did is move towards other types of characters that don't need poisons, and do it faster and better
All it did was penalize people for playing some types of characters over others, and make it a much less fun idea to pick some types of character concepts anymore, because your character can get instantly killed at any time by characters using the OTHER methods, and no changes were made to those at all (and not read of any intention to make other changes to "make fights last longer")
Quote from: Bloodpaint on December 03, 2022, 02:46:40 PM
Quote from: Svalinya on December 03, 2022, 02:01:39 PM
Quote from: Bloodpaint on December 03, 2022, 05:43:50 AM
stuff
Sounds like you want to make the game harder and more tedious to play for no particular reason other than MUH REALIZMMM
Sounds like you want to make the game easier and more boring to play for no particular reason other than IT'S TOO HARDDDD.
(sorry for anyone else that had to read that, but it's important to help translate when people need it)
It was said that the reason was to make fights last longer, but obviously that failed because all people did is move towards other types of characters that don't need poisons, and do it faster and better
All it did was penalize people for playing some types of characters over others, and make it a much less fun idea to pick some types of character concepts anymore, because your character can get instantly killed at any time by characters using the OTHER methods, and no changes were made to those at all (and not read of any intention to make other changes to "make fights last longer")
Not everything needs to be useful in PVP only, you know that right?
Quote from: Bloodpaint on December 03, 2022, 02:46:40 PM
Quote from: Svalinya on December 03, 2022, 02:01:39 PM
Quote from: Bloodpaint on December 03, 2022, 05:43:50 AM
stuff
Sounds like you want to make the game harder and more tedious to play for no particular reason other than MUH REALIZMMM
Sounds like you want to make the game easier and more boring to play for no particular reason other than IT'S TOO HARDDDD.
(sorry for anyone else that had to read that, but it's important to help translate when people need it)
It was said that the reason was to make fights last longer, but obviously that failed because all people did is move towards other types of characters that don't need poisons, and do it faster and better
All it did was penalize people for playing some types of characters over others, and make it a much less fun idea to pick some types of character concepts anymore, because your character can get instantly killed at any time by characters using the OTHER methods, and no changes were made to those at all (and not read of any intention to make other changes to "make fights last longer")
play less delves, you'll make it
Quote from: Pariah on December 03, 2022, 03:01:18 PMNot everything needs to be useful in PVP only, you know that right?
Sure, but the problem is everything is very linked between NPCs and PCs, due to how it's all set up - so one aspect knocks on at the other with any slight change, and so it became something that gives favor to some types of characters over others (even if it wasn't intended that way originally)
Maybe if there was different poisons that animals used compared to what players use it could be better (like distilling something an animal has to change it, or something that is not poisonous usually but becomes it)
Quote from: Svalinya on December 03, 2022, 03:02:45 PM
play less delves, you'll make it
It's affecting a lot of types of city characters too, and moving people towards playing certain races, definitely. But that's kind of sad since not many people play those.
Quote from: Svalinya on December 03, 2022, 03:02:45 PM
Quote from: Bloodpaint on December 03, 2022, 02:46:40 PM
Quote from: Svalinya on December 03, 2022, 02:01:39 PM
Quote from: Bloodpaint on December 03, 2022, 05:43:50 AM
stuff
Sounds like you want to make the game harder and more tedious to play for no particular reason other than MUH REALIZMMM
Sounds like you want to make the game easier and more boring to play for no particular reason other than IT'S TOO HARDDDD.
(sorry for anyone else that had to read that, but it's important to help translate when people need it)
It was said that the reason was to make fights last longer, but obviously that failed because all people did is move towards other types of characters that don't need poisons, and do it faster and better
All it did was penalize people for playing some types of characters over others, and make it a much less fun idea to pick some types of character concepts anymore, because your character can get instantly killed at any time by characters using the OTHER methods, and no changes were made to those at all (and not read of any intention to make other changes to "make fights last longer")
play less delves, you'll make it
(https://media2.giphy.com/media/ro08ZmQ1MeqZypzgDN/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e473wnkz88j4f0cfjz6bup6tz5vnebp1ox3pq8ny1mb&rid=giphy.gif&ct=g)
That said, remember to be cordial and constructive with your comments please less personal attackish.
Quote from: Bloodpaint on December 03, 2022, 03:06:36 PM
Quote from: Pariah on December 03, 2022, 03:01:18 PMNot everything needs to be useful in PVP only, you know that right?
Sure, but the problem is everything is very linked between NPCs and PCs, due to how it's all set up - so one aspect knocks on at the other with any slight change, and so it became something that gives favor to some types of characters over others (even if it wasn't intended that way originally)
Maybe if there was different poisons that animals used compared to what players use it could be better (like distilling something an animal has to change it, or something that is not poisonous usually but becomes it)
Quote from: Svalinya on December 03, 2022, 03:02:45 PM
play less delves, you'll make it
It's affecting a lot of types of city characters too, and moving people towards playing certain races, definitely. But that's kind of sad since not many people play those.
It's really the knock on effect that I find problematic (how it affects basic wilderness traversal), and the fact that the knowledge now requires a bunch of study, it's not a 'KISS' system for basic (see low tier) poisons as it used to be, because when it was, it was SO intuitive that joining any clan that went outdoors, you were immediately taught what these three basic cures did ICly, and in analyzing them you were able to tell how to make them, and that was all IC as well. It felt more organic and realistic, because you had to seek out someone for exotic poison and cure information but for stuff that would beat common critter bites? Yeah, everyone knew it. Because they were common critters that are everywhere.
Hi there!
You folks are all terrific. You contribute all sorts of different constructive thoughts and ideas to this thread.
Let's keep it that way eh?
Love,
She who will pout and be disappointed and lecture you if you don't.
All of you are too old to talk to each other like this. Jesus, man.
I sort of wish the pipeline from weird plant to in a city, on the blade of an elf actually functioned again. I recall playing a Guildee when the old guilds were still a thing and extended subclasses were added. I played a ranger slipknife. The Guild was able to effectively get poisons, keep them, provide and apply them to any party willing to pay.
I don't think it's common any longer for that to happen- outside of one low potency option. I feel like something was lost because of this.
I also wish that the balance of herb locations weren't also tipped favoring the North, but that may be a personal bias. It just seems like if you pick the South you're not going to be able to experience the poison/cure system in any meaningful way without making up a really silly excuse to ride across the entire gameworld to pick leaves. The slinky effect of the lack of foliage in the South means players there won't get to experience it much until either more herb-like items are added or another game change occurs. And that sucks.
I just had a hell of an idea, which maybe someone has already mentioned but if they haven't, I don't know how it has too an idiot like me to think of.
Alright, now I'll be the first to say realism isn't realistic in a game about magick and elves, HOWEVER, I will also be the first to mention that things should make LOGICAL SENSE.
So I have tinkered with the poison/brew system since it was reworked, hardly ever before that honestly outside of carrying red tablets for fighting cilops when I played a northerner.
Anyways, here is the idea, right now we have a cure/poison system that's anchored around flavors:
So say Bloodburn cure is Flavor A and Flavor B = Bloodburn Cure who's potency depends on vial or tablet and skill of the user. This is a non arguable fact of the current system and nobody debates that.
However, there is sorta a chicken before the egg situation with finding the flavors, you need to find someone reputable, analyze/taste their work and learn it, or be told it. There is no way outside of HAVING one to find the cure recipe on your own without ooc or ic knowledge. No path to discovery.
With Cures, you luckily can get around this by analyze and taste with an existing cure, but with poisons I have yet to find that.
So what if, say Flavors had an inverse, a yin and a yang.
So let's say Flavor A is soft (I know it doesn't make sense but easiest way to describe this as a flavor) and Flavor B is hard, Flavor C is Black and Flavor D is White.
Let's say a bloodburn cure is made with Flavor A and Flavor C combined into whatever mash/pill/vial.
And the bloodburn poison is in fact the inverse of Flavor B and Flavor D, because they are opposites and that just makes LOGICAL SENSE, as if one cures a poison, then the adverse should cause it?
Why would this help? Because someone could analyze/taste a herb and go, hmm, this is hard, I have learned that soft helps make a cure to bloodburn, and this branch is White flavored which is the opposite of the other component, so it makes sense where one will cure me of a poison, one will actually give me that poison.
Now this only solved half the problem with the OOC info being needed currently, but it's a step in the right direction I think.
(All these examples of flavor are for ease of understanding, not because they are actual flavors)
What do you guys think?
EDIT:
Also I feel there should be some type of ooc reference to these. Say you have hard and soft, there should be a helpfile somewhere that states, Hard is the opposite of Soft, because for some words it's hard to tell the opposite.
Quote from: Pariah on December 04, 2022, 12:58:14 PM
...
However, there is sorta a chicken before the egg situation with finding the flavors, you need to find someone reputable, analyze/taste their work and learn it, or be told it. There is no way outside of HAVING one to find the cure recipe on your own without ooc or ic knowledge. No path to discovery.
Use the discuss command with every NPC herbalist. They may give you some discoveries.
Quote from: Pariah on December 04, 2022, 12:58:14 PM
What do you guys think?
I think you haven't played around with the system enough.
Store generated common cures exist for at least a couple of poisons. You can analyze those to get the tastes, as they are exactly the same for the crafted cures.
You can, and always have been able to, assess crafted mashes to see if they are a poison, if you have the appropriate skill to tell whether poison objects are poison. The messages are exactly the same, making it easy to know which mashes are which poisons, if you know which poisons are which poisons. Even if you do not have the poisoning skill, a mash + poison object will only produce a possible crafting result if the mash is the poison type of the poison object.
That basically leaves more advanced cures as the only things that have any difficulty at all to figure out by yourself.
Quote from: Brokkr on December 04, 2022, 06:15:42 PM
Quote from: Pariah on December 04, 2022, 12:58:14 PM
What do you guys think?
I think you haven't played around with the system enough.
Store generated common cures exist for at least a couple of poisons. You can analyze those to get the tastes, as they are exactly the same for the crafted cures.
You can, and always have been able to, assess crafted mashes to see if they are a poison, if you have the appropriate skill to tell whether poison objects are poison. The messages are exactly the same, making it easy to know which mashes are which poisons, if you know which poisons are which poisons. Even if you do not have the poisoning skill, a mash + poison object will only produce a possible crafting result if the mash is the poison type of the poison object.
That basically leaves more advanced cures as the only things that have any difficulty at all to figure out by yourself.
This is so hard to talk about without spoiling and I'm probably just being dense and not getting it.
But how are you expected to find the poison/cure mashes for things that aren't the common cures when there is SOOOOO many herbs, are you just expected to try all the combinations of five herbs, like Herb a Herb b Herb c Herb d Herb e and then B F G H I and keep going till you figure it out? Seems like a lot of wasted herbs to make things taste like ash.
It seems like a metric ton of combinations for the handful of cures/poisons.
Just stop trying to get OOC info directly or indirectly, actually play the game, talk to other characters? Because it's so public there's no way to do it without affecting the whole game, if you have specific questions maybe make a request? It's really demoralizing to see this from veteran players, newbies are generally happy to explore and talk about this stuff IC, but it's like everyone seems just so demanding and any time anything new comes out there's people here or on chat trying to fish out a step-by-step or specifics
Quote from: Bloodpaint on December 04, 2022, 09:21:52 PM
Just stop trying to get OOC info directly or indirectly, actually play the game, talk to other characters? Because it's so public there's no way to do it without affecting the whole game, if you have specific questions maybe make a request? It's really demoralizing to see this from veteran players, newbies are generally happy to explore and talk about this stuff IC, but it's like everyone seems just so demanding and any time anything new comes out there's people here or on chat trying to fish out a step-by-step or specifics
Why are you so aggressive? You do realize you can put your thoughts and feelings across in a way that doesn't come across so rude right?
I understand that's probably not your intention, but you gotta understand I'm not standing next to you listening to you say this with a smile or sarcastic tone in your voice, this is just raw text and it comes across as you just telling me to shut up instead of discussing something about the game.... On the
discussion board.
I mean it genuinely, your posts are coming so often and fast it's like you aren't even doing anything about it with the game, just going about everything the wrong way it seems like? It's not just you either, I keep seeing this kind of thing over and over again - just give the game a chance instead of straight away going to ask stuff OOC? Why not have more of a sense of adventure?
Quote from: Bloodpaint on December 04, 2022, 09:33:08 PM
I mean it genuinely, your posts are coming so often and fast it's like you aren't even doing anything about it with the game, just going about everything the wrong way it seems like? It's not just you either, I keep seeing this kind of thing over and over again - just give the game a chance instead of straight away going to ask stuff OOC? Why not have more of a sense of adventure?
I'm actively playing the game as I type here. There is a fine line between asking everyone you meet in character how to do something and it being intuitive, it's my view that the poison and cure system isn't intuitive so I'm discussing it.
Not everything has to be intuitive.
Not everything should be intuitive, even.
There's entire clans that are dedicated to this kind of stuff, it's an important part of the RP, especially with both cities open now - Trying to get it reduced to just simple instructions of what to do or solutions means you wouldn't be just robbing yourself, but ruin it for everyone else, too. This stuff can go on for a good part of a character, and it's interesting, at least the first time.
There's not many games like this, since it's more profitable to make everything easy... But a lot less fun. Saw this recently, looked cute: https://www.gog.com/en/game/strange_horticulture
Enough of this sniping. If no one has anything more constructive to add to the conversation I'll close it. Last chance.
Just a little from me.
I spent a lot of time learning about old school brew and poisons.
I spent a lot of time learning about the last revamp of brewing and poisons.
I look forward to doing it again with the new.
I enjoy the ic discovery of these systems and how to roleplay them.
Done.
I didn't get into the old systems of poisons. It seemed every single PC I met that wasn't a complete newb knew everything about them, from the bottom up, all the cures, and how to get the poisons. Investigating seemed pointless, and it was really hard getting the information from those hands.
Now, I'm in a system where very few know, except those who have put in the time and effort. While I'm sure that was the case last time, this time it feels like I have an advantage because of my OOC intelligence. Maybe I'm being selfish, or conceited, but I really want a chance to explore the new system. I like it so far, and the addition of preventative cures has made wilderness travel actually safer for my chars.
It didn't seem like there was an underlying physics to herbs and cures before. Now, it does, and even the tastes and smells seems to have something related to the poison it cures, and I like that. It feels like a ton of thought was put into it beforehand, and I really look forward to getting into them with some chars. If someone comes at me with some crazy poison, I'm much less likely to roll my eyes and think, 'Great, another one of these guys.'
Quote from: Pariah on December 04, 2022, 09:04:27 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on December 04, 2022, 06:15:42 PM
Quote from: Pariah on December 04, 2022, 12:58:14 PM
What do you guys think?
I think you haven't played around with the system enough.
Store generated common cures exist for at least a couple of poisons. You can analyze those to get the tastes, as they are exactly the same for the crafted cures.
You can, and always have been able to, assess crafted mashes to see if they are a poison, if you have the appropriate skill to tell whether poison objects are poison. The messages are exactly the same, making it easy to know which mashes are which poisons, if you know which poisons are which poisons. Even if you do not have the poisoning skill, a mash + poison object will only produce a possible crafting result if the mash is the poison type of the poison object.
That basically leaves more advanced cures as the only things that have any difficulty at all to figure out by yourself.
This is so hard to talk about without spoiling and I'm probably just being dense and not getting it.
But how are you expected to find the poison/cure mashes for things that aren't the common cures when there is SOOOOO many herbs, are you just expected to try all the combinations of five herbs, like Herb a Herb b Herb c Herb d Herb e and then B F G H I and keep going till you figure it out? Seems like a lot of wasted herbs to make things taste like ash.
It seems like a metric ton of combinations for the handful of cures/poisons.
To put it simply:
Of the 1000s of herbs you're talking about, they are categorized into like... 6 or 7 categories. When you engage with the system, you'll notice that two totally different herbs from completely different sources .... have the same general effect on cures and poisons.
Not to echo the sniping, but engage with the system. I'm not saying its EASY, but its not as hard as you are theory-crafting it out to be.
In regards to "vet knowledge", something to remember is they didn't always have that knowledge. They discovered it and figured it out, and so can you!
IMO the system is not designed to be discoverable by doing random combinations.
We are practically restricted to the already mentioned approaches:
1. Pay someone to teach you ICly
2. Buy some cures and analyze them
I'm fine with it. It's not the only thing in this game that's designed to require player interaction at least once in your entire career to figure out.
Between the sniping and reporting, with people arguing "this is true" "no that is true" - it looks like we've exhausted this topic.