Quote from: Dresan on Today at 12:44:48 AMIf the murderer can give the victim a good scene; that's great, please send them kudos. However, it is unreasonable to always expect a well RPed scene or understand the reason why you died or even fully agree with that reason if you learned it. I do believe that if people are forced to justify themselves to staff then the reason for their death will be a bit more obvious and perhaps be even better RP to the victim whenever possible.

I feel like it's a little far-fetched to say that it's unreasonable to expect a decently RP'd scene in a scene where you're dying. Without even talking about how many hours you lose when you die, Armageddon is an RPI, which stands for either Roleplay Intensive or Roleplay Enforced, I've heard both uses of it. Roleplay to a high standard should always be expected. This isn't me saying that you should get up in-arms about bad RP, but to say it's unreasonable to expect good RP from an RPI is a little bewildering to me.

Quote from: Dresan on Today at 12:44:48 AMFor the record, someone disrespecting a templar is grounds for a gory death, and its the fault the game and the entire community if this is not perfectly clear upon character creation.

Is it justified? Yes. Is it the only option? No. Is it the first option? Debatable.
Honestly any Templar player who goes straight to death penalties to solve issues is just going to shoot themselves in the foot. Nobody is going to want to interact or be around a kill-happy templar. As Dumbstruck said; It should be expected that people avoid sociopathic, murderous characters, both from an ooc and ic perspective.

That aside, I think calling anything which is critiquing PKs and putting on a spotlight on it 'carebear-y' is degenerate in the sense that it does nothing for the conversation. It just feels like a completely unnecessary insult to people who don't feel the same as you. Yes the tagline of Armageddon is 'Murder, Corruption, Betrayal', but Murder is one of three words, if the only way to make a game harsh and unforgiving to you is to send people a mantis head, then I don't know what to tell you.

The motto for this game is still: Murder. Corruption. Betrayal.

Conflict should be encouraged, and murder should still be expected. And there are plenty of justifiable reasons to kill someone.

If the murderer can give the victim a good scene; that's great, please send them kudos. However, it is unreasonable to always expect a well RPed scene or understand the reason why you died or even fully agree with that reason if you learned it. I do believe that if people are forced to justify themselves to staff then the reason for their death will be a bit more obvious and perhaps be even better RP to the victim whenever possible. After all, there is a lame reason why assassinating nobles and templars is rare in this game, despite how easily justifiable those deaths could be.

This game  at times tends to overcompensate with some of its issues and that might be the case here but seeing the same vulnerable players continuously get targeted because they are easy marks rather than any good IC reason has  been so revolting that I don't care about the extreme swing as much with this issue.

That said, this isn't Carebear Mush, everyone who plays this game should still expect to die at some point but it feels a bit like some people are trying to purely limit 'PK', even if it makes no sense to spare someone.  Instead, the community should try to improve its storytelling skills and further encourage the types of glorious conflict that better promote justifiable murder between two individuals. 

For the record, someone disrespecting a templar is grounds for a gory death, and its the fault the game and the entire community if this is not perfectly clear upon character creation.

Quote from: Dresan on May 23, 2024, 10:32:55 PMNo amount of RPee makes this any better. Its not harsh or gritty to keep punching down with murder while playing powerful classes or roles, its lame from both RP and gameplay stand point.

Actually, that's absolutely harsh (gritty is an entirely other matter not really related to this subject imo).

Which is why I think that as a community we should try to find a better balance of harshness and the other end of the spectrum. Stories about hope, triumph, and community can indeed be more interesting than 'The land of grimness where everything is awful 24/7 and everyone dies all the time for stupid reasons.' I have said too much and will probably be called a carebear now. 

I don't fully disagree. While I am indifferent to the carebear comment, the thing about punching down when you instagank minions and noncombat types sucks and is punching down. It's real cool and all that Lord Fartypants has a mortal enemy in Lord Templar Medallionface. But if it basically consists of snipping at each other like petty frivolous fops and nuking each others minions, that's just a really good way for neither party to wind up with minions because people don't like being nuked. Unless they have some special mental or emotional stuff going on that makes them an exception, most people will avoid getting invested in that after seeing 2-3 rounds of that, but by that it'll be too late for the half a dozen people who's time was wasted to not even defeat but merely /inconvenience/ someone else that their character is too weak to target personally. Being fallout damage sucks, and it sucks worse when it's <normal screen> <your prompt> <mantis head> with nothing in between.

Let's have the people talk for themselves. They might as well make clear what they mean if we're gonna disagree with them.

Quote from: Kavrick on May 23, 2024, 10:41:53 PM

Quote from: Dresan on May 23, 2024, 10:32:55 PMWhile some people here maybe taking it too far into carebear land.

I do genuinely want to ask, what do you consider 'carebear land'?

Lately? Any change that isn't in line with someone's idea of how to be "harsh".

Non-killing is "carebear". For a time, Tuluk was considered "Carebear" because the people who played there weren't "dirt and sand Allanakis with blood on their face" they were "carebear pussies with facepaints and flowers".

Quote from: Dresan on May 23, 2024, 10:32:55 PMWhile some people here maybe taking it too far into carebear land.

I do genuinely want to ask, what do you consider 'carebear land'?

While some people here maybe taking it too far into carebear land. I have zero tolerance for the people that have been targetting non-combat and newbie characters over the years because they are easy kills with the pettiest of IC reasons.

No amount of RPee makes this any better. Its not harsh or gritty to keep punching down with murder while playing powerful classes or roles, its lame from both RP and gameplay stand point.

You want to murder someone even with little rp, go for it, the game still encourages instant murder but if asking for reasonable justification for your character's actions is too 'hard' then yes, you need re-evalate your character or just your damn self.

Pychopathic behavior was not supposed to be tolerated even when i started playing decades ago, its just that finally the entire community (yes we are all guilty) is coming around to finally enforcing it.

I do have to say, the weird mantra of 'I owe no one anything' that I've heard from people in the community is probably the most unhealthy, deconstructive, nihilist outlook ever. Yes, technically you do not owe anyone anything, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to be kind to your fellow player. What do you think will have the more enjoyable game? The community full of people who use 'I don't owe anyone anything' as a mantra to avoid personal responsibility, or a community full of people that are considerate of other players and approach the game with 'I want everyone to have a good time'?

Even if you're someone who's not altruistic and doesn't believe in that sort of thing, it's practical to want the latter. Unless you're someone who unironically reaps joy from lessening other people's joy (which in my opinion is the kind of person who should never be welcomed into any community), wanting the community overall to be better is something that you will benefit from.


Edit: I wrote this up without fully reading everything. I think everyone should step back and remember that we're all here to share opinions and discuss a topic, I'd like to think no one is trying to say "everyone should think exactly the way I think" or dictate how people should play/think or anything like that. We're all here to have a good time, and I think we should aim to have that good time together rather than trying to tear each other down.

Quote from: Lizzie on May 23, 2024, 09:59:03 PMBut no one "owes" me a fun ending, or resolution, or closure, or a satisfying scene. It's nice to have, but it's not obligatory.

No one "owes" anyone respect, consideration or kindness, and yet, you (again, general you) are much more likely to seek out the company of those who do. Yes, the IN GAME world is a terrible bad world. But wouldn't it make your time investment nicer if you knew that people would treat you, the player, with kindness and consideration, even while seeking out enmity between your mutual characters? Would that not be the preferable end for most people?

Yes, no one is obligated to give someone and end to their story. But for those who value the story above the win, seeing an abrupt end to it alongside their character, is something that eventually makes them stop seeking to tell stories, and have the sort of consideration I believe most people would desire, in scenes where there is a hard winner and loser. No one likes a sore loser, or a gloating winner.