In light of the recent change to eliminate characters younger than the age of 16 on Arm I would like to address another problem.
Although, I do not think RPing sex as a young character is good. I think the real problem is making sure that players are not under eighteen years old. Although the documentation says you must be eighteen to engage in sexual RP I would argue that Armageddon is thematically eighteen plus. We need to protect real minors, not character minors that do not really exist. I am much more concerned about an adult RPing sexually with a real minor, than two adults pretending to be minors.
While younger players will likely always creep in, I would urge staff to take a stance that Armageddon is thematically eighteen plus due to violence, drug use and sexual RP here. There is no way to get through this game without being hit on, propositioned, or seeing the various echoes about whores and vast sexuality. I am not comfortable with the idea of engaging in any kind of romantic role play at any level with a player that maybe younger than that of eighteen years old. Not flirting, not having them watch a strip show, and certainly not sex. Newp.
I am also not comfortable RPing out graphic torture scenes with say a fourteen year old.
Muds are in a grey area because we are not beholden to things like T through M ratings. Armageddon can not be rated by standard video game means. This is much more comparable to a forum, chatroom style RP and the fact of the matter is the game has harsh themes that should not be accessible to non-adults.
Please protect current players, younger would-be players, and the MUD overall by making sure we are never responsible for someone under the age of eighteen engaging in inappropriate scenes. And although the docs say no RP with minors? Players currently have absolutely no idea who is a player that is under eighteen and can play the game, just not sex. There is no way to know. We are are all safer by disallowing players who are minors.
At the end of the day, there are real people behind these keyboards and while we're on this topic I think this absolutely needs to be addressed and enforced by staff going forward. This game is not the same as having a fourteen year old playing a tabletop. If this were a chatroom or something it would definitely need player age restrictions.
To be honest, though, I don't think it'll change much. Armageddon is implied to be adult, and while I wish there was a way to stop kids from playing because of the content, there's no way to gate it. Saying '18+ only' would probably actually attract more kids, and have the opposite of the intended effect. Kids are exposed to extreme casual violence on a daily basis through all forms of media that they'll ignore the warning messages, except for a few parents who 'don't want their kids exposed to sexual content', which is perfectly acceptable, but as always it's up to the parent to monitor what the fuck their kids are getting up to, not the people on the internet who provide a website, a gameworld, or anything else online. If a parent is letting their kid play Armageddon, then they're a bad parent or at least one that doesn't care, and that is none of our faults.
TLDR; Putting up a banner saying '18+' is only gonna make it more interesting towards teenagers who wanna break the rules.
I agree. We should definitely make it eighteen plus. That'll entice more young people to try our mud.
Notes:
You must be 18 years of age or older to ask for or give consent for sexual roleplay.
This is from the rules of consent. (see: help consent)
Hi Aromit. I know that it is. But my point is that there is a lot more sexual RP that goes on other than outright RP such as strip teases, flirting, sexual behaviors, romantic relationships and so forth. There is a lot of grey area here where a minor could exchange in soft sexual role playing in the game. Likewise, how comfortable are people RPing nudity and intense gore/torture scenarios with like ... a thirteen year old. I am not. I think the entire game needs to be officially eighteen plus.
Also, the stating it's not eighteen plus because it'll entice more kids is like the ... let's not outlaw murder because it'll happen anyway, argument. So let's not do that, please. Sites with adult material have a social responsibility to keep kids away. Maybe those barriers are flimsy but the game can at least take a stance.
The game is thematically not for children. Our tagline alone makes that pretty clear.
QuoteBut my point is that there is a lot more sexual RP that goes on other than outright RP such as strip teases, flirting, sexual behaviors, romantic relationships and so forth.
All of which happens in PG-13 movies.....
Just sayin.
Quote from: X-D on September 24, 2019, 03:02:37 AM
QuoteBut my point is that there is a lot more sexual RP that goes on other than outright RP such as strip teases, flirting, sexual behaviors, romantic relationships and so forth.
All of which happens in PG-13 movies.....
Just sayin.
The difference is that in a movie a minor is watching the movie. It is not reciprocal. There is not an adult behind a computer screen pretending to be in a relationship with a character they're playing.
I mean, we can address this now, or we can address this when something goes horribly wrong.
Is the plan to force everyone wanting to play to submit three forms of I.D.?
Driver's License
SSN
Proof of Address?
While I understand and agree that the game isn't intended for minors nor should they be playing it, unless you actually plan to enforce something like the above, then the liars are still going to lie. It's the internet, and it is the ugly side of it, but the truth. You don't really know that the person claiming they're 18 is really 18.
Maybe we need a more prominent warning regarding consent and sexual RP.
I don't think the entire game needs to be 18+, because... Kids are gonna play it anyway, and it'll just make us look even more sex focused and lessen our possibility for outreach and more player integration in the long run.
We've been fine for 20 years without putting the entire game behind closed doors. We're already seen as a place people only go to fuck. I'd rather not solidify that image, because then this game will well and truly be in a downward spiral to its death. Or at least, its utter stagnation.
Quote from: AdamBlue on September 24, 2019, 01:44:27 AM
TLDR; Putting up a banner saying '18+' is only gonna make it more interesting towards teenagers who wanna break the rules.
I agree on this because I have done this when I was a teenager for certain games, including Second Life.
This entire thing baffles me, from raising the min char gen age to these heckles for +18?
Maybe someone somewhere said something negative about this game we love (that I haven't seen or heard of) and that's got you all up in arms to fix it?
I've played this game for 23 years now and never, in the history of -ever- have a witnessed any PC or NPC or VNPC do anything sexual in any sense of the word with a childish figure.
If there really is some creep out there doing anything of the sort I hope the Imm's post their IP address for public knowledge and I'll go burn their house down personally but..
I think the only reason It's an issue this week is because We're making it an issue this week.
The people who play this game, love this game. We're a community; from around the globe yes, but a community non the less. We may chop each other up with bone swords, but we all care.. This issue should not be an issue. Period
This came up years ago. The point is...the ONLY reason to even have an age restriction is to hold the company harmless in case someone who violates the restriction does something that mom doesn't approve of, and tries to sue the company.
The company can say "well this here is proof that the player declared that he's 18, if he lied, that's on you for raising a rotten kid." Unfortunately, this strategy doesn't hold up in a court of law (there have been court cases about it).
It doesn't hold up in court, it doesn't deter kids from playing, it is certainly not a barrier to playing. All it does is make kids think "ooh - juicy game, totes trying it tomorrow."
In short, it's a kid-magnet advertising gimmick.
The more you emphasize sex - even by saying "don't do that" - the more enticing it is to people interested in games that emphasize sex.
Armageddon already has a LOT of emphasis in the official docs about sex. What it means, gender code, rape rules, consent rules, monogamy, equality of sexes...there's SO much written ABOUT sex in the docs, of COURSE kids are going to be attracted to playing it. All they see is sex sex sex, and they haven't even made an account yet.
If sex in the game really and sincerely isn't a big deal, we need to get rid of MOST of the documentation about it.
For what it is worth, I have never had a character that lived more than a few days played that has not been propositioned for sex. This includes fiercely isolationist roles like SLK. Despite making zero effort and having zero interest in sleeping with anyone with a character as difficult to approach as any in the game, I was still having to turn down sex. In the discord last night, a staffer was lamenting the fact that their gick was often swimming in tail and they should be the hardest to love characters in the game.
The reason I point this out is that the argument 'well the whole game isn't 18+!' is meaningless. No, not every piece of the game is. But, I contend it is impossible to play this game for any length on any character without having to make 18+ decisions, given the near certainty of a proposition for sexual roleplay. That has been my experience.
There is little to no way for a 14 year old to play Arm without having to turn down sex at some point.
Do we want a child to be the only one safeguarding the proper decision making process there?
Yes, people could still lie about their age and play anyway, but it's important to force a lie. That's why pornsites have that click through screen.
It's not enforceable unless you just make all sexual activity fade to blackk, no consent just straight fades.
I agree that it's unenforceable.
It is also my opinion (and the opinion of at least the US legal system) that there is an important ethical distinction between someone misleading you about their age vs not doing the due diligence of asking at all.
I don't play Arm at the moment. Not a well kept secret, so I'm not in danger of getting into a dangerous liaison with someone played by a child.
But if I was, I'd like to think there was at least a small barrier standing between me and that.
Quote from: Namino on September 24, 2019, 08:31:05 AM
I agree that it's unenforceable.
It is also my opinion (and the opinion of at least the US legal system) that there is an important ethical distinction between someone misleading you about their age vs not doing the due diligence of asking at all.
I don't play Arm at the moment. Not a well kept secret, so I'm not in danger of getting into a dangerous liaison with someone played by a child.
But if I was, I'd like to think there was at least a small barrier standing between me and that.
I can't believe I'm saying this, but...
YOU want protection from
accidentally being a pedophile in a
fictional online game where everyone is assumed to be an adult, and framed it in the guise of 'protecting the children'?
Hahaha. Very true
We're not doing this to protect the children. Children know 'exactly' what they're doing. We're doing this to protect ourselves. Which is fine. It's lame, but it's the sign of the times. Not big enough deal to raise a stink over it.
I'm cool with the way things are. Age of 16 is an age of consent in most countries. Some are lower, but I dont think there are any that's higher. Are there?
To be honest. I would feel a little bit uncomfortable with a twenty year old as well. It's sad to say this, but they're kids in my mind as well.
This seems silly. When I was a teenager starting this game, I knew there were very adult concepts to it. I've never been big into the whole mudsexing thing but I've definitely been in my fair share of slaughter, bloodshed, and torture/sacrificial stuff. The kids will always get through whatever barriers are stacked up.
Yeah...
I mean, I'm a little confused at your response Adam. I did say people will lie but it's still important to make the effort for the sake of ethical accountability.
I just want to clarify that you don't feel the possibility of exchanging explicit sexual messages with someone underage is concerning because... you already assumed without asking that they're an adult? And because the character they're currently cosplaying is fictional? That's the line you're taking on this?
Hi all, I'm real mixed about this!
I do agree that the possibility of me being an adult and engaging in sexual activity with a minor (unbeknownst) is horrifying.
I'm 22 now, I started Rping (on other sites and forums) when I was 13. That helped me to become the writer and described I am now. Drugs, sex, and violence aren't radical ideas that 13+ year olds are just hearing about. Especially if they have somehow found a MUD game on the internet.
If a minor found this game, they must have been searching for it. And why? Because they want what we want. Beautiful writing and a realistic environment to practice and grow in.
So: yeah, I'm mixed on the topic... not the sex part. Yeah no: please let's not engage minors sexually.
Agree with Gentleboy for all the same reasons. I started mudding when I was 11 and when I started winning national writing contests as a kid I even joked to the Poet Laureate of the United States that it was because I played MUDs.
I think the most pragmatic thing we can do as players in this situation is before ERP (not necessarily just the graphically sexual, romantic at all) that we OOC and ask if the other player is over 18.
I also want to dispell all the bad press and implications from previous posters that this is some kind of hotbed for paedophillic activity and that "justifies" not playing. When I started mudding as a kid it was with a bunch of classmates, family members, friends from the library -- the same people I played DnD with. I don't want to deny anyone a great hobby like this.
Hey. If we're swapping stories.
I was 12 years old when I had my first explicit sex scene in a mud with a female player 23 years my senior.
She lived close to mr irl and we started exchanging emails and text messages outside the game soon after with her asking me to come see her.
Idk if she knew how old I was. I like to think not and that she would have been horrified had she known. But she didn't ask and I didn't tell because there was just a culture of assumption. If she had asked, would I have lied? Maybe. Like I agreed, it's not enforceable. I don't know because no one, her or otherwise, asked me at any point.
Maybe you're the sort of person who looks at that and goes 'the twelve year old is the one who had the onus to be the responsible party here'! Idk.
Triste's suggestion is fine. As long as somewhere between chargen and the explicit sexual depiction, someone gets expressly asked their age, idgaf.
It may be best to just ask because if you stamp 18+ over the game kids are going to sneak in anyway and it adds a smutty implication to the game. If you actively ask the kid is going to have to make a decision to tell the truth or not and it is more clear and contractual.
From my experience more gross/wrong stuff happened over instant messaging apps but not a single widely used instant messenger app has decided to handle it by making the whole platform 18+. That would be ludicrous and more importantly it wouldn't work. Just ask if someone is 18+ before doing 18+ things problem solved.
I started playing Armageddon when I was 15 or so. While I am all for ensuring we protect the community as a whole I dont see how this really does anything but attract those players and there is no way to manage stopping them from playing.
Much akin to these 17+ video games that 12 year olds are playing and some of them do have that to where they are given options for sexual situations. They may not be typing directly but they certainly are moving forward on those and getting it visually instead.
I'm all for options to protect the community it's just a matter of how and I dont see how this does that for us if it cant be managed. We have the 18+ in the consent rules so I'm not sure what else needs to be done.
Putting a big "18+ ONLY, SEXY GAME" sign up will only make more sex and less RP happen.
It fucking sucks when awful things happen to younger people. But younger people are gonna play the game anyway, so yknow what'll happen if we start gating things off? Silence. The young folk who do get iffed over will stay silent out of guilt and/or fear they'll be banned for being under 18.
Instead of shutting the blinds and barring the doors, we should be reaching out, offering support, and bettering the way we deal with reports of misbehaviour so people actually feel safe about coming forward with this.
Additionally, monitoring newer players' actions for a time might be an idea.
Closing things off will not only hurt the game, but those you currently see as at risk.
How about we codify the consent request.
To grant consent the player needs to ooc "I'm of legal age and I grant consent"
That guarantees the person read help consent and is aware of being 18 requirement for it. And reinforces the matter each time the consent is given.
If a person is not of age, no sexual scenes can happen.
Porn sites have 18+ click throughs because they're focused on sex. MUDs have 18+ requirements when they're focused on sex.
While all text-based role playing games have their own sexy time loving people, not all MU*s have 18+ requirements. Violence means
basically nothing for an age rating in America, where this MUD is based, so violence does not indicate an 18+ requirement.
I would argue that Arm is not focused on sex. I'm also going to suggest the onus of responsibility is on the players to
(why the fuck do I have to type this) not mud sex under age people. If you're worried you are possibly doing this,
stop doing what you're doing, just like elsewhere in life.
tl;dr Please don't make it seem like it is, or it will end up that way.
Quote from: LindseyBalboa on September 24, 2019, 10:43:45 AM
Porn sites have 18+ click throughs because they're focused on sex. MUDs have 18+ requirements when they're focused on sex.
While all graphical role playing games have their own sexy time loving people, not all MU*s have 18+ requirements. Violence means
basically nothing for an age rating in America, where this MUD is based, so violence does not indicate an 18+ requirement.
I would argue that Arm is not focused on sex. I'm also going to suggest the onus of responsibility is on the players to
(why the fuck do I have to type this) not mud sex under age people. If you're worried you are possibly doing this,
stop doing what you're doing, just like elsewhere in life.
Please don't make it seem like it is, or it will end up that way.
Absolutely agree. I am not a fan of flagging the game 18+ only, either. I am very much an advocate of child safety and thus I believe that Staff can implement a better mechanism for Staff-only flagging of underage accounts that will be monitored by said Staff to ensure they are not being inappropriately targeted, sniffed out, or being exposed to content unsuitable for their age within the consent rules.
I agree here with the idea of staff-only flagging, but how would they know. It's the Internet, people can lie of the their age.
The consent rules in place are enough. If this is something you are personally worried about as a player, then bring it up when asking for consent, or don't engage in that sort of roleplay, period. This goes for any mature content.
I'd rather lose the sexual RP and keep the younger players and characters.
I do think there is room for improvement on how we, as players, treat public rooms and initial contacts with unknown PCs.
The biggest area for potentially giving an unwelcome experience are in these initial experiences.
I have caught some /very/ graphic hemotes unintentionally in open taverns. Didn't ruin my day, but being aware that we might not want to have that happening occasionally to any random player (perhaps underage) is probably a good thing?
I'd also suggest that if your character has the hots for some other PC that Waying or whispering to them with super-adulty jiggy stuff as your first contact with them might not be best. Get a scene with them where you can OOC if there is consent (including affirmation of adult status) before.
Either we need to understand that the game doesn't have to include that type of thing for everyone and make sure it is not forced upon them just by playing or we have to accept that we are actually creating by our play a MUD where those type of things are an accepted and expected part of nearly every player's experience.
If we take the second choice, then we might have to tag ourselves "enter at your own risk" and declare ourselves exclusively adult-play with it's trappings.
Shrug.
Quote from: Nameless Face on September 24, 2019, 11:56:38 AM
I have caught some /very/ graphic hemotes unintentionally in open taverns. Didn't ruin my day, but being aware that we might not want to have that happening occasionally to any random player (perhaps underage) is probably a good thing?
this sort of thing, if sexy in nature, strikes me as pretty abusive. probably shouldn't happen at all without a check for consent.
Quote from: MatisseOrOtherwise on September 24, 2019, 04:02:04 AM
We've been fine for 20 years without putting the entire game behind closed doors.
This isn't exactly accurate. Before Arm made it's last server move, the homepage for the MUD explicitly stated that Armageddon MUD had an 18+ age requirement. That doesn't exactly "close the doors" to the potential for people to lie, but it set the expectation for the rest of the people playing.
Personally, I'd prefer that they brought that simple line back, making the game adult-only. I don't think each individual player should be held responsible for confirming the OOC age of the people we're RPing with when so much OOC communication is frowned upon or outright forbidden. This is especially true since people who would lie about their RL age during character creation would also likely do so in a verification from another player. So making players do it just adds a further level of real life responsibility to players who play this game to escape real life responsibility.
Furthermore, by stating that this game is specifically for 18+ adults, we won't feel so compelled to make game content and behaviors witnessed in the game "kid friendly", and hopefully the game can start to shift back towards the gritty, harsh place it once was. I personally blame "kid friendly" and "politically correct" changes to the game for a significant portion of the negative change to the atmosphere over the years.
While having an 18+ statement might not keep minors from lying, it sets the stage for dealing with any potential problems. It protects the creators of the game from liability. It protects the players of the game from liability. It sets an expectation that there may be things in the game happening that aren't appropriate for children. As it is now, things can happen in the game that aren't appropriate for children, and we really haven't given any warning to that effect, so an angry parent would have a lot more ammunition. And asking for consent between 2 people isn't even covering our bases, because you ask the consent of the PC that you can see. That says nothing of the PC that might be hiding or invisible watching the scene unfold without OOCing at all. They could be a minor, but you'd never even know they were there. If we had the 18+ requirement, we'd at least be seen to have done SOME due dilligence.
Unsupervised minors are able to do a lot of things they aren't supposed to. But if we add an 18+ tag to our homepage and an 18+ acknowledgement to character creation, we've given parents the tools they need to understand that this is a game with mature content in order to prevent their children from playing if they so choose. Right now, if a parent does a cursory review of the website, there is nothing that would really send up red flags as to why they might not want their kid to play a game that on the surface looks sort of like themes similar to that of Zelda or the Elder Scrolls, or any other mainstream RPG out there.
If said minors are left unsupervised with unfettered access to the internet, they're going to look at things they shouldn't. They're going to interact with people in ways that they shouldn't. But it is the parents responsibility to supervise their children. All we can do is make it easy for said parents to understand WHAT IT IS that their child is looking at.
From a legal perspective, an attorney that specializes in adult websites said this: "While the First Amendment has prevented the US from enacting a constitutional online age verification law, good faith efforts to prevent minors from accessing explicit material is recommended."
So even if you can't completely prevent them from accessing said material, making the effort by requiring them to verify that they're over 18 before having access is legally recommended. We aren't going to "fix" the internet, but we can legally protect ourselves using the same online methods used by sites that offer far more graphic content than we do: An 18+ acknowledgement.
NOTE: For anyone researching the legality or liability involved in operating a website with an 18+ requirement, please understand that there are a lot of websites out there with outdated information. The Child Online Protection Act (COPA) was put under an injunction as to be unenforceable in 1999. It would have required online age verification. It was appealed several times by the government before effectively being shut down by the 3rd circuit court of appeals as being unconstitutional, in violation of the 1st and 5th amendments. The supreme court of the United States refused their final appeal after that ruling in 2009, effectively barring the law from being enforced, despite it still being a law on the books.
Quote from: lostinspace on September 24, 2019, 11:50:21 AM
I'd rather lose the sexual RP and keep the younger players and characters.
If we move this game further towards a kid-friendly environment, the game will have lost all appeal to me. People tend to say things like this, with the unstated insinuation that they won't lose
other players. I think it's worth noting that armageddon was at it's player-number peak when we didn't have nearly as many "kid friendly" or "Politically correct" rules in place. And they had an 18+ requirement on the website at the time.
I think it'd be a very interesting experiment for the staff to allow a second instance of the game for a period of time. One with the kid friendly rules and a ban on sexual RP, and the other rolling back all of the PC/Kid friendly rule changes that have happened over the last 20 years. Let them both run for 2 years, and see which one has more players participating. If they'd allow their code to be used to perform this experiment, I'd even be willing to pay for the server to run the game for those 2 years. I expect we'd see a resurgence of growth on the rollback server.
The issue with discussions like this, on a forum made up mostly of people who have recently played the game(in the last several years), is that you get sort of an echo chamber setup, where players who didn't like the changes are generally no longer a part of the conversation.
Quote from: razorback on September 24, 2019, 04:00:29 AM
Is the plan to force everyone wanting to play to submit three forms of I.D.?
Driver's License
SSN
Proof of Address?
While I understand and agree that the game isn't intended for minors nor should they be playing it, unless you actually plan to enforce something like the above, then the liars are still going to lie. It's the internet, and it is the ugly side of it, but the truth. You don't really know that the person claiming they're 18 is really 18.
No, I think the plan is to pretty much half-ass it like most everyone else does.
I'm in favor of it. If the MUD ever gets sued or undergoes legal action over "corrupting a minor" having something on the website that says 18+ will be a good thing to point to. I doubt it'll have much more effect than that, but given how little investment it takes I'd say that's enough.
Heade hit it on well... the head. This isn't really an optional thing. It's a legal thing. I think there's a disconnect here that Armageddon is some how beyond these kind of regulations because its skirted them thus far when that absolutely is not the case.
I have the perspective of someone who has worked in HR the past year, and been responsible in securing our processes is as an organization to protect minors that we both host, service and occasionally hire. We can't even pull a minors background check with a signed disclosure form from their guardian. If you think engaging with minors is a non-issue, frankly you're wrong.
I am also heavily involved in social media. YouTube has increasingly created guidelines forcing videos to disclose if they are not meant for children. They have also removed a ton of videos that were not sexual in nature but STILL thought to exploit minors. They have ended monetizing content directed towards minors completely. How we treat minors is important ethically and legally. We are growing up collectively as a society and realizing more must be done.
This is an issue we really need to address before someone addresses it for us. At present, this represents a real issue and risk that could even get the game shut down if something were really to go awry. As mentioned, I am not just talking about direct role-play sex. I am talking about engaging in general role-play of torture, gore, drug use, flirtation with people that could be ANY age. Thirteen, sixteen, ten years old, behind the keyboard, who knows? Not okay.
These arguments of, well I did this as a youngin' aren't good enough. It doesn't matter. I was looking at BDSM porn at age sixteen. I turned out just fine too. A few persistent kinks aside. But guess what, the porn sites I accessed had eighteen plus on them. Yes, you can get into shit you're not "really" supposed to as a kid. But we still have laws and things in place where things like sexual rp, violence and drug use must be stipulated online, in movies, video games and so forth that they are not intended to be used by minors.
As Namino said, you can't even play this game without getting propositioned for romance/sex and flirted with. Having to OOC "Are you eighteen" if someone so much as winks as your character is not a good standard. Requiring the game to be eighteen plus is. Allowing minors to engage in romantic role-play then stopping them at the door of hardcore sex isn't good enough. Minors should not be RPing romantic relations with adults behind the keyboard. Just because it's a MUD and there's a perceived extra step of removal via the game doesn't make it anymore right. You wouldn't RP romance with a fourteen year old on Facebook chat, it shouldn't be done in the MUD.
I'm really surprised at the amount of people willing to turn a blind eye to what seems to be a very simple ethical and legal choice and advocate that a game who's tagline is "Murder. Corruption. Betrayal." is intended to be a playground for minors.
I was always a little confused by the fact that there wasn't a quick question baked into chargen (are you over the age of 18?), which disconnects the chargen process if the answer is 'no'.
All the kids who want to play this game will lie and say they're over 18. But that's on them/their parents, not on the people who run this game.
Quote from: LauraMars on September 24, 2019, 02:00:05 PM
I was always a little confused by the fact that there wasn't a quick question baked into chargen (are you over the age of 18?), which disconnects the chargen process if the answer is 'no'.
All the kids who want to play this game will lie and say they're over 18. But that's on them/their parents, not on the people who run this game.
This is correct.
There is a major ethical and legal difference between having someone verify their age and click 'confirm' versus saying 'btw this game has naughty bits don't play those bits if u a beb' and then turning a blind eye and assuming it's all going swimmingly.
I mean, likely over half of the player base started playing the game before they were 18. I certainly did, started at age 14-15.
I don't think having a disclaimer of 'Mature Content ahead, we recommend (or even require) you are 18 and over' is going to deter anyone, and there's no way to safeguard against people under the age of 18 from playing the game. It's also a free game which is an important distinction.
I can't see any way for Staff to verify Players' age. Do you have to link your Facebook account? Even that can be faked.
I don't think it is turning a blind eye as not really having a solid solution for ensuring people under the age of 18 don't play the game. Furthermore, if we consider that a plethora of players started playing the game when they were 15 or even younger, what are we trying to do to our player base or potential player base? I do think the days of logging into the MUD during nutrition at high school are sort of behind us now -- There's plenty of other games and distractions for the underage crowd. But I'm curious if I would have even started playing the game if it had a 18+ mature stamp. I might have, I might not have, hard to say.
It's difficult to quantify.
How many players might we lose by adding a 18+ stamp?
How many players might we gain from a 18+ stamp that are still underage?
How many underage people play the game currently?
How many underage people that play the game currently skirt the 18+ rule of consent?
What problem does this actually solve, most importantly.
It seems like a liberalized hand-washing of the deeper issue, which is we can't control who plays the game, or what age they are. We can put disclaimers as much as we like, but it wouldn't prevent a 13 year old from engaging in ERP on the MUD. It seems like a way of changing the focus of blame -- If we have a disclaimer, and a 13 year old still plays the MUD, and engages in ERP, then the onus is on them? I don't see how that solves the problem.
Again, I don't think it's turning a blind eye -- The issue as presented is a real one, but it's also a difficult issue to tackle, not simply hand-waved with a disclaimer. I'm unsure how the game developers and the player base can combat such an issue, and I certainly don't think having a '18+ Mature Content' stamp will do anything but attract people.
The options as I see it are:
-Disallow Erotic Role-play Period. All sexual scenes are Fade to Black.
-Only allow Erotic Role-play with verified adults. Not sure what this verification process is, maybe there's a website that identifies your SS# without disclosing it and gives the results of 'Soandso is Age Blah'.
I think both of these options are pretty invasive, particularly the latter option. 'Requiring' that the game is 18+ is nothing more than 'Recommending' to people that are underage not to play the game. There is no way of enforcing it. The Click Through button of "Are you 18+" is more to give everyone over 18 peace of mind, and doesn't actually address the underlying issue.
Quote from: Veselka on September 24, 2019, 02:10:10 PM
Stuff.
Stop.
Just stop. Stop playing stupid.
We all know that no is talking about identification. We are talking about the same laws that require sites to give a warning that they are meant for eighteen plus and having people confirm I'm eighteen or not so the burden is on them if they engage in the viewing or participation of content that is sexual in nature and not meant for them. The same regulations that stipulate on Patreon or YouTube that content is not for minors. We're talking about ethics and intent that minors not have Armageddon to use as an outlet for sex and drug use RP.
Porn sites have it. Erotic lit sites have it. This is a game where a minor could engage in roleplaying drug use and sex. And this site also needs to have such a standard. It isn't really interpretive. It's the law. Minors can not consent to these things. You can argue all day that sites stipulating they are for adult use don't do anything, but it's still legally required because it takes the legal burden off of the website supplying the content. There's a reason these laws are in place.
Stop playing dumb with these strawman, stupid over-generalizations about identification and Facebook and SSNs which are also highly regulated. Legally, most companies can't even make copies of legal photo identification or SSN cards so you're making it really clear you have no idea what you're talking about.
This has a very simple solution. Make account users have to confirm they are eighteen and stipulate this game is for adults since it has strong themes of sexuality, drug-use, torture, murder, corruption and gore.
I know it's difficult in this day and age to have a discussion or debate over a hot button issue, but I'm certainly not playing dumb. I'm skeptical that your solution would solve the problem. I would say I'm playing smart, not playing stupid. I just don't bleat like a sheep and accept your solution at face value.
The deeper issue is that this doesn't actually solve the problem, it just gives you peace of mind.
Could we throw a line here:
(https://i.imgur.com/oujhT4E.png)
Stating, "Armageddon is a roleplaying blah blah blah 18+"
Quote from: Veselka on September 24, 2019, 02:17:13 PM
I know it's difficult in this day and age to have a discussion or debate over a hot button issue, but I'm certainly not playing dumb. I'm skeptical that your solution would solve the problem. I would say I'm playing smart, not playing stupid. I just don't bleat like a sheep and accept your solution at face value.
The deeper issue is that this doesn't actually solve the problem, it just gives you peace of mind.
You could say that about literally any porn site, any R rating on a moving, any M rating on a game. It's still the law to protect minors and disclose when content has heavy adult themes. It is also the responsibility of the game to protect its players (and minors) by having a standard that minors can not be in a game where romance, flirting and sex is constantly accessible so that we are not engaging in that sort of play. As stated, there is no way to play this game without being exposed to that.
It wouldn't be appropriate to pretend a fourteen year old is older and RP out them watching a strip tease in Facebook chat and it's not okay in Armageddon. The present rules aren't strong enough and its a hazard to the game.
Quote from: mansa on September 24, 2019, 02:18:57 PM
Could we throw a line here:
(https://i.imgur.com/oujhT4E.png)
Stating, "Armageddon is a roleplaying blah blah blah 18+"
Yep. And I would argue put something in there stating you must be eighteen plus, and by filling out this app you are confirming you are of age to play or something. It's really that simple.
I'd say it's an equal hazard to the game that it is based directly on protected Intellectual Property of TSR/WoTC. Game Staff took some measures to remove some aspects of IP infringement, but there's certainly more than enough to make a case if there ever was a want for that.
This Disclaimer will not, I repeat, will not prevent minors from playing the game. It will simply provide (as you see it) a protection for Staff/Game Developers and the Player Base of people who are actually over 18 from being culpable (in your opinion) if an underage person still chooses to play the game after reading the disclaimer. I don't actually think that protection would hold up in the court if (one day) a minor played the game, engaged in ERP, and sued the game developers over providing an environment where that could take place. I'm not a lawyer. I certainly can't see a jury of peers agreeing with a game developer that everything is A-OK because they put a 18+ warning on the website or when you make a PC.
Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 02:21:02 PM
You could say that about literally any porn site, any R rating on a moving, any M rating on a game. It's still the law to protect minors and disclose when content has heavy adult themes.
ESRB is not the law, it is a voluntary system.
Please at least have the courtesy, if you are going to throw around arguments based on the law, to have a specific understanding of what the laws are.
Quote from: Delirium on September 24, 2019, 11:25:31 AM
The consent rules in place are enough. If this is something you are personally worried about as a player, then bring it up when asking for consent, or don't engage in that sort of roleplay, period. This goes for any mature content.
This.
Quote from: Veselka on September 24, 2019, 02:10:10 PM
I mean, likely over half of the player base started playing the game before they were 18. I certainly did, started at age 14-15.
I don't think having a disclaimer of 'Mature Content ahead, we recommend (or even require) you are 18 and over' is going to deter anyone, and there's no way to safeguard against people under the age of 18 from playing the game.
You're missing the point. The point of having an 18+ requirement isn't to be able to enforce it. It's a legal protection, that you have notified potential "consumers" of your media that the intended audience is a mature audience. We're not babysitters. It's not for us to figure out how to police all the children of the world.
It also sets the precedent, so that the game is free to create mature content without having to worry about whether or not that content is appropriate for minors, because we have directly stated that it isn't INTENDED to be appropriate for minors. By having mature content but not really directly saying the game is for people 18+, we muddy the waters of liability and handcuff content creators to the constant idea that they need be conscious of the idea of having consumers who were minors, which neither provides legal protection nor promotes quality of content.
And, sure, the majority of us started playing MUDs when we were under 18. And the vast majority of us have lied on a website that requires an 18+ acknowledgement. But having that acknowledgement allowed those websites to continue to create content that was targeted towards an adult audience without legal liability.
That is what I'm in favor of. I'm in favor of us directly stating, once again, that Armageddon is a MUD intended for people 18 or over so we can focus on making the game enjoyable for it's adult player base rather than having to put everything through a filter of trying to protect the world's children. That isn't our job. This game was never meant for 10 year olds to play. And if the occasional unsupervised 16 year old or 14 year old ignores the fact that it is an 18+ game, that isn't our problem. If we put 18+ warnings in place, we're free to create content as we please, and enjoy the RPing experience without having to digitally "card" people we RP with.
As others, I too started RPing online when I was only 13 years old. There were explicit things that have occurred over my many years of online RP, and I was always unharmed. Having the MUD be 18+ is more about setting the expectations we have as players for the themes of the game, and providing legal protection against claims of negligence than trying to prevent anyone from playing. We tell them our intended audience is 18+ and that themes present in the game are designed for an 18+ audience. It's up to them to abide by that, or accept the responsibility for not doing so.
Quote from: Veselka on September 24, 2019, 02:30:30 PM
This Disclaimer will not, I repeat, will not prevent minors from playing the game. It will simply provide (as you see it) a protection for Staff/Game Developers and the Player Base of people who are actually over 18 from being culpable (in your opinion) if an underage person still chooses to play the game after reading the disclaimer. ... I certainly can't see a jury of peers agreeing with a game developer that everything is A-OK because they put a 18+ warning on the website or when you make a PC.
It's not exactly an "opinion" with no basis in fact. First off, there is no jury in a civil case. It's just a judge who has to abide by the law, and the supreme court has held that it is unconstitutional in the United States to require even pornographic websites to have age verification at all. It is only legally recommended by attorneys to have a voluntary "I am over 18" splash screen to offer further protection(to the website, not to consumers) than already exists by law. Second, many legal precedents already exist with graphic, adult-websites that have been sued and won under existing US law. The US supreme court has already weighed in by denying the appeal from the 3rd circuit court. And Armageddon is far less graphic than what is depicted on adult-websites.
So yes, the intention is to protect the creators of the game, and the players of the game, while allowing them to create and explore adult themes without having to worry about real life legal consequence. While it would be nice if all people just followed the rules, we understand there is no way to enforce that.
EDIT: Also, even in the event of a criminal case, it's the defendant who decides whether the case will be tried with a jury, or with a judge. And in cases where the jury might be emotionally swayed to vote against the defendant against the letter of the law, any competent attorney will just have them sign a waiver of jury trial and have the case heard before a judge. https://www.greghillassociates.com/should-i-waive-a-jury-trial-and-instead-have-a-bench-trial.html (https://www.greghillassociates.com/should-i-waive-a-jury-trial-and-instead-have-a-bench-trial.html)
Quote from: Brokkr on September 24, 2019, 02:39:27 PM
Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 02:21:02 PM
You could say that about literally any porn site, any R rating on a moving, any M rating on a game. It's still the law to protect minors and disclose when content has heavy adult themes.
ESRB is not the law, it is a voluntary system.
Please at least have the courtesy, if you are going to throw around arguments based on the law, to have a specific understanding of what the laws are.
I wasn't talking about ESRB specifically in regards to the law. Although I was using that an example that ethically/culturally that's thing. Legally however, websites with pornographic and sexual content are legally required to disclose and do their due diligence and restricting minors from access.
QuoteCOPA required all commercial distributors of "material harmful to minors" to restrict their sites from access by minors. "Material harmful to minors" was defined as material that by "contemporary community standards" was judged to appeal to the "prurient interest" and that showed sexual acts or nudity (including female breasts). This is a much broader standard than obscenity.
This is a very broad topic, with a lot of over arching legal issues. And I think it's better to bring it up now as a community, then bring it up when something goes awry. And ESRB is backed by some Canadian lawmakers and movie ratings are required in some states. But as if you read one of my above posts you will see that I said Armageddon is not beholden to standard video game ratings. We fall more under the category of a website with adult content. And there are very specific laws regarding those kind of things. We are also seeing increasing litigation towards sites that offer content that can be seen as exploitative to minors without doing their due diligence to keep them away.
I also have to wonder why an anonymous user posting outside of the community gets more regard about imaginary minor characters than a dedicated player bringing up something inside of the community about protecting
real minor players. Or why there is such a push to have minors participate in a game we all know is not kid-friendly in any shape way or form.
Someone please tell me why it is such a big deal to have a simple disclosure saying you must be eighteen plus to play this game? Why is that such a big deal? Why is it wrong to go ... I don't want fourteen year olds RPing being adults and engaging in romance with other characters?
Quote from: Brokkr on September 24, 2019, 02:39:27 PM
Please at least have the courtesy, if you are going to throw around arguments based on the law, to have a specific understanding of what the laws are.
Quote from: Heade on September 24, 2019, 02:47:01 PM
First off, there is no jury in a civil case.
While not the case internationally, in the US we do have juries for civil trials.
Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 02:53:27 PM
Someone please tell me why it is such a big deal to have a simple disclosure saying you must be eighteen plus to play this game? Why is that such a big deal? Why is it wrong to go ... I don't want fourteen year olds RPing being adults and engaging in romance with other characters?
It isn't wrong by a long shot. I too don't want 14 year olds (or anyone under age) to be RPing adults and engaging in romance with other characters.
I don't think a disclaimer will stop that from happening.
Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 02:53:27 PM
Or why there is such a push to have minors participate in a game we all know is not kid-friendly in any shape way or form.
Bebop,
This statement is False. No one is PUSHING minors to participate in anything. You want people to take you and your posts seriously, but then you write inflammatory allegations like this, that are harmful to the community. There are MANY, many more games with MUCH persuasive advertising targeted towards minors that you should be taking this fight up against if you feel this strongly about the subject.
You could have simply sent in a request and said Hey Staff, could you put in a one liner in the account generation process to let people know this is a game for adults, and not appropriate for minors, so minors please get your parents permission before playing.
Remember though, what is and is not deemed appropriate for each child is dependent upon what their parent's decide, not us.
Quote from: lostinspace on September 24, 2019, 11:50:21 AM
I'd rather lose the sexual RP and keep the younger players and characters.
I think you're onto something here. I'd much rather have a game that is friendly to children rather than have an 'adult' themed game. I've never really grasped the sexual roleplay, and while I don't care if others do it at the end of the day this is a fantasy themed "fighting" game. Not a sex-themed "fetish" game.
Quote from: Krath on September 24, 2019, 03:03:18 PM
Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 02:53:27 PM
Or why there is such a push to have minors participate in a game we all know is not kid-friendly in any shape way or form.
Bebop,
This statement is False. No one is PUSHING minors to participate in anything.
Quote from: kahuna on September 24, 2019, 03:05:07 PM
Quote from: lostinspace on September 24, 2019, 11:50:21 AM
I'd rather lose the sexual RP and keep the younger players and characters.
I think you're onto something here. I'd much rather have a game that is friendly to children rather than have an 'adult' themed game. I've never really grasped the sexual roleplay, and while I don't care if others do it at the end of the day this is a fantasy themed "fighting" game. Not a sex-themed "fetish" game.
Say again?
The statement is still false, where is the PUSH you are talking about to have minors play? If you are uncomfortable emoting out, or fading to black, like delirium said:
Quote from: Delirium on September 24, 2019, 11:25:31 AM
The consent rules in place are enough. If this is something you are personally worried about as a player, then bring it up when asking for consent, or don't engage in that sort of roleplay, period. This goes for any mature content.
Heh, I'm not pushing for minors to participate in adult roleplay. I'm just saying if you're making us choose between 18+ or not I'm against it. I'd rather have a game that doesn't have sex rp and be open to all kinds of players than have one that forces 18+ themes on many of us that don't even want it.
I've said what I believe. And I still believe it. Arm, as it stands, is not for minors. There is constant flirting, romance, nudity, sexuality, drug-use and gore. It has not and has never been "family-friendly." You guys can make the decision to make Arm more family friendly, or you can put a small stipulation that the game is for adults and take a stance to keep minors from RPing adult themes with adults. Right now, it's some where in between.
I think it's ethically and legally questionable to say that sexual RP isn't allowed if you're under eighteen but you can be a minor and engage in adult relationships, pregnancy, drug-use, murder and torture with a player base that is predominantly quite adult. Just no mudsex. Have fun kids! Not really my MO. Is anyone enforcing that the minors that get into this game then don't RP sex with adults behind the screen? No.
This conversation says a lot about us culturally and I'm not really sure what to think right now, so I'm deferring the conversation to you all and staff to consider what's being said and act or not act.
I've said what I think and why I think it. I guess maybe I would have had better luck posting anonymously on Reddit after something already went very awry, than attempting to engage my own community about a concern proactively. God forbid we be proactive here.
Clearly the sheer absurdity of adding a single line to character gen to confirm you're over eighteen to play this game is a hellscape which would bring it to ruin. Certainly, adding small disclosure of this kind would be far more perilous than say a fourteen year old roleplaying out a sex scene or romantic relationship with a forty year old without any such attempt at preventing such a thing. Priorities, right? ::)
Quote from: Brokkr on September 24, 2019, 02:57:41 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on September 24, 2019, 02:39:27 PM
Please at least have the courtesy, if you are going to throw around arguments based on the law, to have a specific understanding of what the laws are.
Quote from: Heade on September 24, 2019, 02:47:01 PM
First off, there is no jury in a civil case.
While not the case internationally, in the US we do have juries for civil trials.
You're right. High profile cases involving corporations and punitive damages will almost always have a jury. But most civil cases do not. If it is a family law case(divorce, estates, custody, etc), any small claims suit (varies by state, but generally under $10k), a probate case, or a case involving a juvenile, it is heard before a judge or magistrate rather than a jury. Since arm isn't exactly overflowing with profits, I'd contend that any civil suit brought would fall under one of the above categories.
But it doesn't really matter. The point is to have that 18+ clause to protect the players and creators of the game from both civil and criminal liability while maintaining the integrity of the game world as it was intended.
Literally it already says 18+ we aren't going to card you to make an account there is no fucking way to verify.
Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 03:13:27 PM
I've said what I believe. And I still believe it. Arm, as it stands, is not for minors. There is constant flirting, romance, nudity, sexuality, drug-use and gore. It has not and has never been "family-friendly." You guys can make the decision to make Arm more family friendly, or you can put a small stipulation that the game is for adults and take a stance to keep minors from RPing adult themes with adults. Right now, it's some where in between.
I think it's ethically and legally questionable to say that sexual RP isn't allowed if you're under eighteen but you can be a minor and engage in adult relationships, pregnancy, drug-use, murder and torture with a player base that is predominantly quite adult. Just no mudsex. Have fun kids! Not really my MO. Is anyone enforcing that the minors that get into this game then don't RP sex with adults behind the screen? No.
This conversation says a lot about us culturally and I'm not really sure what to think right now, so I'm deferring the conversation to you all and staff to consider what's being said and act or not act.
I've said what I think and why I think it. I guess maybe I would have had better luck posting anonymously on Reddit after something already went very awry, than attempting to engage my own community out a concern proactively. God forbid we be proactive here.
I think you're exaggerating the amount of adult stuff that goes on in the game. Most of the stuff is combat oriented, fighting, sparring, etc. Some PCs engage in it but I'd be interested to see statistically how many do (which is impossible). My time here has been long and storied and I rarely run into it so we've obviously had two very different experiences on the game.
I have seen sex scenes in teen fantastical fiction books, aren't they for 13 to 19, not just 18 -19? If so, then it makes no sense for Arm to be 18+ for sex. I feel like a lot of modern day fantastical fiction books are just reflecting on real life things. Just my two sids.
Quote from: kahuna on September 24, 2019, 03:05:07 PM
I think you're exaggerating the amount of adult stuff that goes on in the game. Most of the stuff is combat oriented, fighting, sparring, etc. ... at the end of the day this is a fantasy themed "fighting" game.
If that is what arm is, I'm not interested. But I don't agree with you. That isn't what arm is.
If you haven't had that sort of experience in arm, it could be because of what you personally focus on playing. If you're the guy who always pushes everyone else to get to the sparring room, and ways everyone you know to get them there and so on, you sort of mold your own experience. A lot of players/characters aren't going to way you and say they're mudsexxing, robbing a house, or torturing someone for information or pleasure and are otherwise indisposed. You should also be aware that a LOT of people play this game and specifically avoid all clans or organizations that have "sparring" as part of the schedule. I assure you there is much more to the game and RPing experience than combat-oriented activities. If I had to venture a guess, I'd say there are at least as many players who almost NEVER use the combat code as there are those who focus on it to the exclusion of other types of RP.
I see no harm in asking for a player's age however...
Players will lie to play the game anyway and there is no true way of enforcing this.
My one daughter is DYING to play it. I told her when she's 18.
Quote from: Derain on September 24, 2019, 03:19:55 PM
Literally it already says 18+ we aren't going to card you to make an account there is no fucking way to verify.
Where does it already say that? If you can point that out, I think that would satisfy most reasonable concerns (unreasonable concerns won't be satisfied until this is either a bona-fide sex mud, or until it is fully Disneyfied.)
Why not just add the line to account creation? One time "verification" that says you're an adult, and then we're done.
I will admit that I'd prefer Arm to remain adult themed. I've never played a whore, but I want that option to be possible. I want to be able to write in my rinthi background that my character survived off of whoring during a young age and that fucked him up so bad that he is now psychologically open to murdering people ... en masse. Just so he would NEVER need to do the things he did before.
I want to play a character like that. I want to stumble into characters like that. Or worse. It's a gritty atmosphere mud. It's one of it's best qualifying factors. It's why I played Armageddon, instead of SoI when that was an option.
I like complicated anti hero character traits. I like villains to be villains because their lives are fucked up. I like Deadpool more then Avengers. There. I said it.
It's my personal preference and if the GMs begin to whitewash away the grit just to appease some people who go out of their way to find faults, I will probably move on to some other mud.
Quote from: Dune Bunny on September 24, 2019, 04:27:26 PM
Why not just add the line to account creation? One time "verification" that says you're an adult, and then we're done.
I think this is the easiest, too. As has been suggested.
I agree that it won't keep kids from playing the game. Rating movies R doesn't keep kids from watching them. That doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do to put the information out there, for many of the reasons stated.
People often don't read a wall of text. I'd like to see it something that has to be replied to. "Yes, I am over 18."
I think protecting the players and staff of the game are worth that effort. It doesn't seem like much trouble to go to. If there ever is a problem, we have to remember that most people out there won't "get" us, or our hobby. Why not put forth a bit of effort to avoid that?
It's not as if children are hard to identify based on their behavior IC or OOC. I don't condone sexual roleplay with minors, but if you end up in it, you're either willfully ignorant or easily duped. Otherwise, the rest of the themes don't seem like they'll be permanently damaging to a minor's psyche. Teenagers study genocide and torture in school; playing a game that features it isn't going to rot their fragile little brains. Rating boards like the MPAA and ESRB are based around profits and liability, not around what people consider moral.
Mostly I just don't want us to have to stone Thomoto to death. He's a good kid.
Quote from: Delirium on September 24, 2019, 11:25:31 AM
The consent rules in place are enough. If this is something you are personally worried about as a player, then bring it up when asking for consent, or don't engage in that sort of roleplay, period. This goes for any mature content.
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 24, 2019, 05:47:07 PM
Mostly I just don't want us to have to stone Thomoto to death. He's a good kid.
+1 to that.
I think all parties can be happy by just being more vigilant about the already existing consent rules and maybe specifically confirming the age of players present.
Why not make a policy that all sexual role-play would be Fade-to-Black, and move forward from there. This would solve many problems.
Quote from: Wasteland Wanderer on September 24, 2019, 05:54:34 PM
Why not make a policy that all sexual role-play would be Fade-to-Black, and move forward from there. This would solve many problems.
I am not in favor of anything that restricts roleplay options within the bounds of existing policy and law. I think the best analogy for Armageddon is literature legally speaking. If a policy like this were applied to Armageddon it would feel like:
- The Fire of the Vanities during the Renaissance
- Literary censorship during McCarthyism
- Farenheit 451
I am not in favor of that at all.
Sexual roleplay makes deeper character connections, making it that much more satisfying to backstab someone's waifu to hurt them.
My 2 sids: Having played many, many, many sexual relationships without explicit play beyond PG-13'ish fades, I'll put in that there isn't much lost by fading from a roleplaying perspective. I'm of the opinion that it actually opens up a lot of time you'd otherwise be spending erping for more interesting interaction. So instead of emoting about fornication for 45 minutes or whatever, you can have a 2-3 minute fade scene and 40 minutes of relationship RP.
I also cut out the weird IC/OOC concerns as stated above and do not make anyone feel too awkward roleplaying with me. I think some players are understandably embarrassed if they find out the player of their IG partner isn't within their desired parameters.
I don't know of any RPI with a policy like this, nor is it enforceable like the suggestion from OP. Are Imms now going to have the job of looking for people who ERP and ban them with this policy? Seems counter to the intent of OP anyway.
I again stick to my literature analogy, I don't enjoy 1940s style censorship.
Apologies, McCarthyism and obscenity laws were 1950s, I am giving antiquated and oppressive policies too much credit here.
The main thing I am arguing for here is this: we can be self governing, we do not have to constantly rely on staff to make sweeping policy updates that result in a restriction of what we do in game. Armageddon is the best RPI available because it is immersive, and you don't get immersion with artificial barriers and policies that cause you to suddenly lose parts of the playerbase. I can agree with OP but that would involve losing players like the one Metekillot mentioned. I can agree with a FTB policy but that is censorship and across the planet most developed countries have agreed censorship is bad for art and expression.
So how about this novel idea that other posters have promoted: the consent rules are clear so follow them and ask player age along with consent.
Quote from: triste on September 24, 2019, 06:29:07 PM
The main thing I am arguing for here is this: we can be self governing, we do not have to constantly rely on staff to make sweeping policy updates that result in a restriction of what we do in game. Armageddon is the best RPI available because it is immersive, and you don't get immersion with artificial barriers and policies that cause you to suddenly lose parts of the playerbase. I can agree with OP but that would involve losing players like the one Metekillot mentioned. I can agree with a FTB policy but that is censorship and across the planet most developed countries have agreed censorship is bad for art and expression.
So how about this novel idea that other posters have promoted: the consent rules are clear so follow them and ask player age along with consent.
I'm fine with an opt-in line during account creation that says something like:
QuoteArmageddon is considered an adult game. By submitting your application you acknowledge that you are at least
[whatever the age of consent is, in the location of the server] years of age. Please see "help consent" [with a hyperlink to that help file] for scene-specific rules.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 24, 2019, 06:49:40 PM
I'm fine with an opt-in line during account creation that says something like . . .
Yeah, I am fine with this and OP's suggestion after seeing counter proposals to limit RP options because there is nothing I dislike more than censoring and limiting possibilities in game. Let's keep the possibilities open in Arm like they are in art/literature. It's just a bit cruel to players who have mentioned they are under 18 and I wish this topic didn't come up at all. The existing policies from a legal perspective are fine.
Legal age of consent in Illinois (where I believe the server is still located?) is 17, and in much of the country (USA) is sixteen. Some states it is 18. I believe the consent rules, plus the recent minimum age upping of PC's to 16, is enough. Also, without the ability to send pics, which seems to be the main concern of text based apps as far as the law is concerned, it would be difficult to hold anyone playing out a sex scene in a text based game legally accountable. I feel if you have a moral issue with it, it's safer to just FTB or not RP sex at all.
I don't see a lot of harm in having a disclosure statement like Lizzie suggested, but for the record, I think it's silly that we have to. If its a vote, I say to leave things as they are.
Apparently it no longer says 18+ hut the website used to. Disclosure statement is a decent idea I guess.
Having an 18+ rating in America means your media is geared toward sex. If Arm is listed as an 18+ MU*, it will be labeled as a sex game. This is a game about people living in a wasteland, elves, dwarves, magic, and sorcerers. That's why I'm against an 18+ rating, because it will attract people that want to play this game like it's Shangri-La. I just found this game, and I want to keep playing a game about desert elves and mutated humans killing each other and betraying one another at the drop of a hat.
However.
I'm all for players being responsible. This is in the rules as-is, and if it's not being followed, that's against the intention of the game. Don't pose graphic sex in public. If you see that, report it. If you see shit that's shady, report it. If you decided to role-play sex, ask for consent. Ask for age, if that makes you feel better.
Armageddon having an 18+ rating does nothing at all in this regard except attract people that think that rating means sex is going to happen. There are already rules in place regarding age, consent, and sexuality, which is the norm for roleplaying MU*s. At best, a question at account creation might be helpful where it asks your date of birth, so staff can keep tabs on those that declare themselves underage, thereby removing a step from staff's workload. But quit acting like this is protecting minors (it's not), quit acting like it'll protect the game legally (it won't). It comes down to players having to be responsible, just like it does in real life with people having to follow the law and be responsible, and just like it comes down to in any other media.
One last time for the people in the back, an 18+ rating will do much more harm than it would good. An "adults only" MU* means only one thing, and you know what that is.
To me it's very simple.
Does the game allow for extensive role play into graphic torture, sex, romance, killing, slavery, abuse, death, war and drug use? Yes. Then it is a game for adults. Or make it seventeen plus. Make it whatever age you can legally consent where you are. But at this time we have no age limit at all. Meaning a ten year old could be on this game, and by not having a standard we're saying that's okay as a community.
It's really, really fucked up to me that some people want to allow all of the graphic/sexual material in game but also want to conveniently not disclose that this is the dynamic of the game by putting a stipulation that you must be an adult to engage in a very thematically adult game. If you don't want an eighteen plus standard on this game then don't have the following themes permitted to be RP'd in graphic detail.
Trying to do both... having a game that is extremely graphic... and also NOT labeling it as graphic is not transparent and borderline immoral. It is really, really sketchy you guys. I have RP'd some raunchy ass sex, torture and death in this game. I'm asking we be transparent that that kind of stuff goes on in our game. And those kinds of things are not things I want to do alongside fourteen year olds. Not with them. Not around them.
If Arm was family friendly I wouldn't be advocating for some kind of protections for minors and adults playing this game in place.
If staff would like to make Arm more family friendly in lieu of making it transparent that the game is graphic by requiring people to be an adult to RP adult themes that's another choice. This fence sitting, to my mind, is really questionable. I for one, will not be playing Arm if it goes the family friendly route. It still does not make it kid friendly at this time. To me, the honest and transparent thing to do is make sure that is clearly disclosed and gate keep to make sure this is not a game where adults can engage with sexual, romantic and graphic RP with minors.
I want to also emphasize that you do not have to engage in ERP (where the 18+ consent rule) comes into play for sexual things to happen to your characters. Characters will still be sexual, hit on characters, and say sexual flirtatious shit to them all day without ever needing to drop an ooc: Consent? Meaning that minors on this game will definitely and inevitably be exposed to sexual behavior without this consent rule ever mattering at all.
Hell, just walking into The End in Luir's one is exposed to sexual RP. Why? Because sex is thematic to this game. And I love that it is. What I don't love is the idea of playing in that world alongside a fourteen year old. What I don't love is that a fourteen year old can be exposed to sexuality, romance and flirtation by someone who, behind the keyboard, is forty years old without consent ever coming into the discussion because flirting and romance don't require consent. That is not okay, it is not okay to RP romantically with minors.
Can we police everyone to make sure they're following the rules or that they didn't lie about being legal age of consent? We can not. But it's about culturally taking a stance one way or the other. To say, that we will not engage minors in graphic role play regarding sex, drugs, nudity, torture and intense adult situations intentionally alongside a majority adult and player base and we will do this by requiring our players to be adult. We can control ourselves and what we as a community find acceptable.
If they lie to us, that's on them. It's about stating intent. Right now there are no age regulation on anything but direct ERP and I will continue to say that that is not enough and no one is enforcing that as it is.
Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 08:06:18 PM
To me it's very simple.
Every person who plays the game is not you.
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 24, 2019, 08:09:50 PM
Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 08:06:18 PM
To me it's very simple.
Every person who plays the game is not you.
It would stand to reason that by qualifying my opinion as solely my own perhaps no one would understand that better than myself. But thank you for your heartfelt and valuable contribution.
I would also like to say, that the potential for sexual abuse and misconduct is no laughing matter. Especially not when minors are involved.
So you all will have to pardon my insistence on this issue because I believe it to be very, very important. And I did not realize until recently that there were no age standards to this game as I had always assumed that due to the graphic nature of it it was for adult use.
Sometimes these issues come up. Like the rape issue. Or using "necker" as a racial slur and euphemism for the real life "n" word. I am not going to apologize for bringing up something I feel is very important socially, culturally and legally.
Even if it doesn't go how I think it should go, even if this is not an easy discussion to have --- this is a discourse we need to have as a community. Here. Not on Reddit. Not with strangers making us accountable. And I don't regret starting it.
The "necker" issue was kind of oddly handled, in my opinion, as we still fully allowed the use of the word "gypsy", which is fully a racial slur IRL instead of a stand-in for one. We also call elves "slant-eyes" and "slants".
Knowing sexual liaison with minors is already covered under the law where Arm operates. I don't believe that writing terrible collaborative smut is covered under it. I've already stated how obvious it is when your roleplay partner is underage, or just dumb. This proposed policy change is unnecessary and will be ultimately harmful to the game's player numbers with no benefit whatsoever.
Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 08:06:18 PM
Does the game allow for extensive role play into graphic torture, sex, romance, killing, slavery, abuse, death, war and drug use? Yes. Then it is a game for adults. Or make it seventeen plus. Make it whatever age you can legally consent where you are. But at this time we have no age limit at all. Meaning a ten year old could be on this game, and by not having a standard we're saying that's okay as a community.
A 10 year old could be on the game with or without a disclaimer that you should be 18+ to play the game.
Quote
It's really, really fucked up to me that some people want to allow all of the graphic/sexual material in game but also want to conveniently not disclose that this is the dynamic of the game by putting a stipulation that you must be an adult to engage in a very thematically adult game. If you don't want an eighteen plus standard on this game then don't have the following themes permitted to be RP'd in graphic detail.
Literally no one is advocating for not disclosing that it is a game with mature themes. I think people are skeptical that a disclosure or disclaimer about this would do anything more than further amplify that the game is all about mature themes -- It isn't. Is there mature content? Of course. Is the game a FurryMUD? No. Is it a ERP focused MU*? No. We have extensive help files on consent and included in those help files is that you should be 18+ to engage in sexual RP.
Quote
Trying to do both... having a game that is extremely graphic... and also NOT labeling it as graphic is not transparent and borderline immoral. It is really, really sketchy you guys. I have RP'd some raunchy ass sex, torture and death in this game. I'm asking we be transparent that that kind of stuff goes on in our game. And those kinds of things are not things I want to do alongside fourteen year olds. Not with them. Not around them.
Of course this stuff goes on. Spoiler alert, you probably did those kinds of things alongside 14 year olds already. I too would like to limit underage people engaging in that behavior on the platform that is this game, but a disclaimer or an account signature that you are X age or higher isn't going to actually stop people that are underage from playing the game. The only thing that will stop those people from engaging in that activity is to remove that activity altogether, thereby disallowing them from participating.
Quote
If Arm was family friendly I wouldn't be advocating for some kind of protections for minors and adults playing this game in place.
If staff would like to make Arm more family friendly in lieu of making it transparent that the game is graphic by requiring people to be an adult to RP adult themes that's another choice. This fence sitting, to my mind, is really questionable. I for one, will not be playing Arm if it goes the family friendly route. It still does not make it kid friendly at this time. To me, the honest and transparent thing to do is make sure that is clearly disclosed and gate keep to make sure this is not a game where adults can engage with sexual, romantic and graphic RP with minors.
Staff literally can't do anything about it. Again, if there is a disclaimer or 'click through' option where you consent that you are 18+, people who are not 18+ will still click through and play the game. This means that those people will still be around you, except you will have the personal peace of mind that everyone must be telling the truth if they are playing a PC, and are 18+.
Quote
I want to also emphasize that you do not have to engage in ERP (where the 18+ consent rule) comes into play for sexual things to happen to your characters. Characters will still be sexual, hit on characters, and say sexual flirtatious shit to them all day without ever needing to drop an ooc: Consent? Meaning that minors on this game will definitely and inevitably be exposed to sexual behavior without this consent rule ever mattering at all.
True. I was exposed to this when I played the game before I was 18. It didn't melt my brain or turn me towards Satan or make me into a sexual deviant. I was also reading Game of Thrones at the time which had copious mentions of female genitalia and was generally way more sexually creepy than anything I encountered in Armageddon.
Quote
Hell, just walking into The End in Luir's one is exposed to sexual RP. Why? Because sex is thematic to this game. And I love that it is. What I don't love is the idea of playing in that world alongside a fourteen year old. What I don't love is that a fourteen year old can be exposed to sexuality, romance and flirtation by someone who, behind the keyboard, is forty years old without consent ever coming into the discussion because flirting and romance don't require consent. That is not okay, it is not okay to RP romantically with minors.
It's the world we live in, Bebop. If you're worried about 14 year olds reading descriptive lines about naked prostitutes and dancers in the Storm's End in Luirs...I mean the world as it stands right now will drive you crazy.
Quote
Can we police everyone to make sure they're following the rules or that they didn't lie about being legal age of consent? We can not. But it's about culturally taking a stance one way or the other. To say, that we will not engage minors in graphic role play regarding sex, drugs, nudity, torture and intense adult situations intentionally alongside a majority adult and player base and we will do this by requiring our players to be adult. We can control ourselves and what we as a community find acceptable.
If they lie to us, that's on them. It's about stating intent. Right now there are no age regulation on anything but direct ERP and I will continue to say that that is not enough and no one is enforcing that as it is.
Again, I posit that this idea of a disclaimer or '18+ acknowledgment' does nothing to solve the problem of underage people playing the game and being exposed to the themes. Even if there was a gigantic banner on the main website before it even took you to the main webpage of 'Mature Content ahead: 18+ only, you consent you are 18 years old by clicking through', it would do nothing to stop underage people from clicking through and playing the game. It just offers to give you personal peace of mind that if they did that, it's on
them, and not on
you.
Well said.
It's really ick to me that what I'm also seeing arise is this idea that I'm puritanical and prude because I want to protect minors who can not consent to reciprocal romantic/graphic/sexual RP as or with an adult.
The world does not "drive me crazy." Anyone that knows me knows I embrace sex and sexuality freely. I'm a Satanic advocate of nudity, gender equality and lust. As a consenting adult. I am also a victim of sexual abuse as a minor and adult.
I can still be that adult and understand adults have to be gate keepers in their communities when it comes to minors and consent. I am not making judgement calls about how erotic and romantic RP between a fourteen year old and an adult will do to them long term.
What I am saying is as the adults in the room embracing sexually graphic and violent RP we are responsible for creating standards as a community. And I don't think it's asking a lot to say as a community this game about muder and betrayl with graphics sex and violence options is not for ten year olds or fourteen year olds. That is a very low standard indeed.
This is not a book or a standard video game or movie. This game is reciprocal. It is not okay to have a fourteen year old engage romantically with a player in their thirties on the opposite side of the screen.
You can't control everyone but that doesn't mean you should go oh well. Guess we won't set any standards as a community at all. Vague minors shouldn't directly RP sex aside.
You know. I think accursed lands mud asks you if you are eighteen upon account creation. Not character creation, but account creation. I don't actually know what happens if you say no to the question. I've been answering yes since I was 14. Regardless, it is not mentioned anywhere that it's an 18 year mud. In fact, it really isn't. It's not populated enough to be any type of mud at all. I think if you add the question, it will not add ... Anything. Don't plaster it on the website. Just use it during account creation.
Also this persistent argument about how people will sneak on anyway needs to go. By that logic why have any laws or rules? Why forbid character disclosure. Why do anything? Why have statutory rape laws? Will it still happen? Yes. You make laws for a few reasons.
To take a moral stance on issues
To stipulate consequences for rules broken
To protect people
This strawman anarchy business needs to stop. People are always going to break rules. It doesn't mean rules are an effort in futility.
Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 09:11:16 PM
Guess we won't set any standards as a community at all.
You can see the standards we set via the 'help rules' command, as well as perusing the website's sections on the game rules.
Quote from: Dar on September 24, 2019, 09:19:04 PM
You know. I think accursed lands mud asks you if you are eighteen upon account creation. Not character creation, but account creation. I don't actually know what happens if you say no to the question. I've been answering yes since I was 14. Regardless, it is not mentioned anywhere that it's an 18 year mud. In fact, it really isn't. It's not populated enough to be any type of mud at all. I think if you add the question, it will not add ... Anything. Don't plaster it on the website. Just use it during account creation.
This is exactly what I'm requesting. An age standard in the rules and stipulated at character/account creation. This is not game breaking. It's a small step towards taking a stance against exposing minors that can not legally consent to sexual and graphic RP as a community.
Quote from: Dar on September 24, 2019, 09:19:04 PM
I think if you add the question, it will not add ... Anything. Don't plaster it on the website. Just use it during account creation.
This is where I am at basically, the point of concession where all parties are happy. Slapping it all over the site will create an expectation for new players and hurt the roleplay environment. Adding it to chargen will collect data on players identifying if they are 18+ in an auditable way. Dubious as to who will be "saved" by this but all parties can be happy. Only a handful of casualties such as the player Metekillot mentioned (sorry lil buddy).
Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 09:21:57 PM
Quote from: Dar on September 24, 2019, 09:19:04 PM
You know. I think accursed lands mud asks you if you are eighteen upon account creation. Not character creation, but account creation. I don't actually know what happens if you say no to the question. I've been answering yes since I was 14. Regardless, it is not mentioned anywhere that it's an 18 year mud. In fact, it really isn't. It's not populated enough to be any type of mud at all. I think if you add the question, it will not add ... Anything. Don't plaster it on the website. Just use it during account creation.
This is exactly what I'm requesting. An age standard in the rules and stipulated at character/account creation. This is not game breaking. It's a small step towards taking a stance against exposing minors that can not legally consent to sexual and graphic RP as a community.
No -- You're requesting a sleeping pill so you don't have to think about the problem anymore.
Creating a disclaimer doesn't stop people from lying about their age. If your actual problem is underage people playing the game and being exposed to mature content, there are pretty extreme steps that Staff could take to correct course and remove adult related themes/mature content from the game. That way, there is 0 chance that a minor will be exposed to mature content or themes, regardless of whether they lie about their age or not.
If your problem is knowing that underage people play the game, then adding a disclaimer that you should be 18+ to play the game will allow for you to stop thinking about it.
It isn't game breaking to add a disclaimer. But it also does nothing to address the actual perceived problem of underage people playing the game and engaging with mature themes. All you are codifying is a mysterious 'legal barrier' between the game's participants and the game developers. What you are addressing is culpability. A Disclaimer isn't going to suddenly drive away underage people from playing the game. It may deter some -- It may encourage others.
Minors who can't 'legally consent to sexual and graphic RP' will do exactly that, even if it is illegal. I started looking at porn websites when I was 14-15, even though it was federally illegal. I started playing Armageddon around the same time.
The only way to prevent minors from engaging in that behavior on our MUD is to remove that possibility entirely. I'm not against removing ERP from the game and requiring FTB. As Is Friday said earlier -- We could get that much more MCB accomplished without it. But that isn't exactly what you are positing -- You believe that a 18+ Banner/Inclusion in the rules (even though it is already included in the consent helpfile) would be a cure all for the MUD. No more 14 year olds or underage people would play the game. If they did, it's their fault. How does that fix anything?
Quote from: Bebop on September 24, 2019, 09:19:57 PM
Also this persistent argument about how people will sneak on anyway needs to go. By that logic why have any laws or rules? Why forbid character disclosure. Why do anything? Why have statutory rape laws? Will it still happen? Yes. You make laws for a few reasons.
To take a moral stance on issues
To stipulate consequences for rules broken
To protect people
This strawman anarchy business needs to stop. People are always going to break rules. It doesn't mean rules are an effort in futility.
I think we could just as easily tell you to stop your liberal fascist handwaving. But we aren't. We're trying to drive to the crux of the issue, and discuss why or why not a '18+ Only' disclaimer would benefit or not benefit the game and the community. It's a Discussion Board, not a Soapbox Forum.
Maybe stop telling people to stop? I think that's Staff's purview on the discussion board, not yours.
This thread has pretty much run its course and we are going in circles.
Not gonna lock it but let's take some chill pills and a break from the circular debating and borderline attacks.
You know, actually, most major pron sites DON'T have an "18+ only" splash page, at least not anymore.
I'm not sure that Armageddon MUD needs to be held to a higher standard than pr0nhub.
We could go the total other way around, and have a warning on account creation:
"Warning - this is NOT a sex-themed game, and as such, we do have minors playing it. If you absolutely insist on ERPing your character's way into fame and fortune, please be advised that you might be ERPing with a 12-year-old whose mom doesn't realize her kid is fapping to a text game."
A teenager exploring their sexuality by writing terrible smut with some other loser over the internet also seems harmless to me, if I'm being honest and socially crude.
Quote from: Lizzie on September 24, 2019, 10:14:36 PM
We could go the total other way around, and have a warning on account creation:
"Warning - this is NOT a sex-themed game, and as such, we do have minors playing it. If you absolutely insist on ERPing your character's way into fame and fortune, please be advised that you might be ERPing with a 12-year-old whose mom doesn't realize her kid is fapping to a text game."
Dear God. I love it. Decision made, let's use this.
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 24, 2019, 10:16:26 PM
A teenager exploring their sexuality by writing terrible smut with some other loser over the internet also seems harmless to me, if I'm being honest and socially crude.
Or several other losers, as the case may be. I'd say I don't judge, but I do. Quietly.
Totally harmless, Met. I agree. No pics. No way to tell if that is a 13 year old or a 65 year old in RL. Staff already made the IG min age 16. If you are some creeper into kids, you ain't gonna find any satisfaction here. Move along.
What if a player could flag their account, or send in a request ticket for a video call interview. A staff member would set up a free gotomeeting, zoom, or similar video call, and over 10 minutes explain policy as well as collect screenshots of photo id.
Then, the player "adult smut" flag would be approved, and visible to players in the game with an assess command flag. If there was a later legal complaint, anyone who had engaged with a non flagged pc with sexual content or torture content would be reported to law enforcement, with all applicable logs.
Thoughts?
Are you serious?
Quote from: LindseyBalboa on September 24, 2019, 07:50:02 PM
Having an 18+ rating in America means your media is geared toward sex. If Arm is listed as an 18+ MU*, it will be labeled as a sex game.
I disagree. Arm was labelled as 18+ for years, and it was far deeper than a "sex game". it also had a bigger, more robust population when it had that 18+ label. And when I started playing arm as a young person, it was literally YEARS before I ever found myself in a mudsex scene, because that wasn't my objective in playing.
Despite the 18+ label that was clearly stated on the website when I first started playing arm, I joined primarily for the idea of a permadeath, roleplay enforced game. I also played forsaken lands, which someone else here mentioned, because they advertise their game as permadeath with enforced RP. But their version of "permadeath" is a bit silly because a PC can resurrect as long as they don't lose their "totem". And you get stunned for a period of time if you remove someone else's totem, giving them time to OOCly message some buddies to come make sure they don't stay dead.
In any case, my point is that arm offers a lot in terms of providing an RP environment in which things MATTER. Permadeath makes things like standing up for someone in the wilderness against a bandit or simply not robbing or killing you while you're sleeping/injured a significant thing. It makes RP between characters more meaningful and believeable. It helps you to truly immerse yourself into the world and the character. That is why I joined arm, and also why I believe that other adult themes that are currently present in the world(like sex and romance) are sacred to the integrity of the game. Having characters develop real feelings for other characters and interact with them realistically adds depth and real fear of loss. It makes the relationships between such characters real. And in a harsh, permadeath world focused on immersion, that is important.
And because of that, I'd much rather have an 18+ notification on the website and at account creation than to have the integrity of the game world threatened. Without that depth of RP, arm is just like any other PK mud, just with harsher penalties for death.
Quote from: Halcyon on September 24, 2019, 11:57:14 PM
What if a player could flag their account, or send in a request ticket for a video call interview. A staff member would set up a free gotomeeting, zoom, or similar video call, and over 10 minutes explain policy as well as collect screenshots of photo id.
Then, the player "adult smut" flag would be approved, and visible to players in the game with an assess command flag. If there was a later legal complaint, anyone who had engaged with a non flagged pc with sexual content or torture content would be reported to law enforcement, with all applicable logs.
Thoughts?
@Mek & Dar: I just assumed they were trolling and ignored the post.
And I laughed at it and commented how awesome it is. Moving on!
Locking the topic, as I can't possibly see anything constructive being added to the discussion at this point, and considering half of the posts were inflammatory or trolling to begin with. If, what or how any change is made will be discussed staff-side (Yes, we're discussing it) - beyond that, this has clearly run its course.