As the title suggests, I'm curious what would entice people to play more in the cities?
The normal rules about don't talk about specific IC events within the past 1 year, though if it's a major world event that's fine as long as you don't give away specific plot points, characters, etc. The usual rules.
I'm looking more for suggestions that complaints. If your reason is "I hate templars" then your suggestion could be "Guide templar players to be less intrusive" or "reduce it to 1 templar instead of 2". Obviously if you dislike something about city life, speak up, but let's keep it positive.
a clan that
A) has no schedule
B) doesn't have a limited number of slots so i didn't oocly feel bad i was blocking other people who wanted the slot/feel like i have to play arm like a job to be deserving of it
so long as schedules/slots remain a thing for 99% of city clans i'd probably sooner stop playing arm than play in a city
Probably not geared towards me, because I often play in the cities, but there are many city roles I don't play, and there are various reasons around that, some mechanics wise, and others just an issue with culture.
Any sneaky characters, being unsure how crimcode works, and what might or might not break hide and having no clue about any of it, makes me not want to play them.
Also sneaky characters, the hate they seem to get for even existing, sucks. The fact that any hint there might be a hidden player around, has everyone standing up and scanning the room.
Also sneaky characters, the fact that the slightest mistake basically makes it so the player base knows your a sneak, is just awful.
I'd love to try playing magickers as well. Not having any idea about what the character starts with mechanics wise, makes it pretty much a waste of time in my mind, to app them. The fact that I have to just app all the characters and have an idea about their base level starting abilities the cost of rolling a magicker obscenely high. This is related to city play, because outside of Allanak I'm not sure magickers interest me.
I've been psyching myself up to play either a stealth character, or a magicker for awhile now. Orginally I was going to do both. I've just about talked myself out of playing any sort of magicker at this point, and leaning towards the stealth character only. There is always a chance by the time I end up rolling a new character I'll just choose combat or crafting like normal because of the above reasons.
I found the Garrison strictly nicer to play in than the Byn because:
1) no rule against leaving the walls and
2) very little focus on policing recruits' compliance with the schedule.
I actually like playing in the Byn but I always have to gut check whether I'm ready to stick with the restrictions (or deal with violating them).
The 'leaving the walls' rule for the Byn is an OOC rule and is loosely enforced, let's be honest.
A tavern closer to the Byn and Merchant Estates in Allanak rather than on the other side of the city. Or shrink Allanak like Tuluk.
Easier access for regular folks to get involved with and drive plots.
I think the higher end of city roleplay is full of life and intrigue but I feel like people on the ground have a harder time finding meaningful day to day type interaction and objectives.
Sometimes it really just takes some leaders in that vein though. If I had a new PC to make I think I could get things of that sort started, and even quickly. But it takes those sorts of driving forces and involving leaders to make that stuff happen.
Right now I think the number of factions in the broader world is maybe taking some of those sorts of players and instead of them being in cities, they're elsewhere.
I'm also not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying, a lot of that talent is simply distributed into other places.
General Suggestions:
1. Shrink Allanak like what was done with Tuluk. If players don't have access to something and there is no intent for them to in the foreseable future, junk it. Consolidate Bazarr shops. Combine Miner and Stone Carver road or do a complete retconned overhaul of the city. The rinth is just fine :D
2. More City vs. Wild conflict. (this is WONDERFUL right now, keep it up).
3. More new/Returning Players
Speaking for myself on things that drove me away for four or five years: Stop taking play options away/nerfing things/removing magick abilities/items. It seems like every 9 out of 10 change for "balance" results in removing/nerfing things which just makes people complain about the next thing down the hate cycle jump to prominence before it gets nerfed/removed. A lot of these things we aren't even allowed to discuss or bring up publicly because rules or are asked HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS!?!!?? if we bring it up in private.
Getting Players that Prefer Non-city RP into the City:
4. Make the cities SLIGHTLY more hospitable to "undesirables" on an OOC level. These are the least specific examples I can offer without breaking rules:
A. Have the crime code go away in most areas in the middle of the night.
B. Make smuggling/sneaking people in and out easier without a wagon (also make smuggling in wagons harder: shipment inspections should be a thing without a significant bribe to a PC or NPC Templar each time you enter the gates or you are stuck inside the walls but cant enter the rest of the city without inspection).
C. Make some undesirable things punishable only by PC Templars/Soldiers (instead of automatic death by soldier, send a report to templar/lieutenant/sergeant now or next time they log in)
5. DON'T make Redstorm/Luir's/Tribes/Solo Less attractive in an attempt to steers those of us who prefer non-city play in.
6. Arena Events. (more interaction with city people from different clans and draws people from other places in) Find a way to automate/script arena smaller arena events with unpredictable outcomes like NPC matches.
7. Public Sparring Areas (more interaction with the people who are there from different clans and unclanned.
8. Allow temporary alts for city events other than the arena games.
9. Allow city alts for specific plot or clan hole needs restricted to certain areas or OOC limitations on character interaction (someone needs an enemy, noble needs a servant for a event, Salarr needs a decorator/crafter/organizer to clean up their crafting shop, The Byn needs a Drill Sergeant t to train off-peek recruits that never leaves the compound. Same for AoD, templar wants to hire someone to embarrass a rival).
10. Relax temporary storage roles, limiting them to a certain amount of time before you have to store your temp or perma-store your previous. Let's players take a break from their role or try something else out for a little while instead of taking a break from the game all together and (possibly) never come back.
I don't know how to fix this, but ever since the "clanned AoD thief that can steal from you without coded repercussions" and "0-karma 2h bludgeon 0-days played dwarf assassins", people do not gather in public any more.
Everything is done behind closed doors. Usually GMH gates, or tribal camps that you have to be invited into or immediately killed.
It seems very rare that people go to bars, regardless of location, to meet new people or try and play the social game. I play arm to be social, because I am not social in real life. There seems to be more social scenes outside of bars and even outside of cities.
If I were to play more in cities, there would need to be more emphasis, somehow, on people gathering in bars without OOCing "AFKish".
Quote from: Riev on January 31, 2023, 11:27:01 PM
If I were to play more in cities, there would need to be more emphasis, somehow, on people gathering in bars without OOCing "AFKish".
I was following you up til that line. What do you mean?
I recently played about 20 days in the Byn, and nearly 10 days in a militia clan, back to back, and on one of those characters, there were NPCs to spar with when I was logged in by myself... and that is the clan I decidedly enjoyed playing more in.
I can only speak from my experience as a new player but I actually want to play the city game and be involved with city stuff but it usually just comes down to people not being in bars. If you're playing anything that isn't a human you're also immediately massively restricted on what clan you can join on top of the fact that GMHs all have a limit on the amount of hunters/grebbers they can have. I've actually icly never been able to join a merchant house because of this which ends up boiling down to "suck eggs, welcome to Armageddon, join the Byn". Which is doubly frustrating because I feel like characters that want to be a GMH hunter aren't the same types of characters that want to be in the Bym.
So this kinda just results in me being forced to be an Indy character that sits in empty bars all night while I play the solo wilderness game in the daytime. I don't know if it's just the way the game is intentionally but staying in the city doesn't result in me getting any more interaction than if I go fuck off and just do mechanical grinding all week.
I think when you ask these questions, most people commit a simple mistake. They tell you what would make them personally play more in cities. Unfortunately, what they tell you is wrong, because unless adressing their personal concerns bring a large population back to the city for them to play with, even with the proposed change they get bored because no one else comes back because you were just addressing one small group's concern.
If you want to increase the population of a city, you need to hit a broad base, and consistently the best way to do that is to dink around with the code so there are more coded things to do or play with. Take a look at how popular the game got right after you added the new classes. This is despite the fact that people complain about them semi-regularly, but they were new and interesting things to play with and they brought in enough people that even the people that didn't like the classes would play because there were just more people to interact with.
I bet the recent changes to crafting is in the process of inducing a lot more crafters too. You can check on that, but if I'm right, it makes any "how do we increase the population here" question pretty easy to answer. Give some coded crap to play around with. The more the better. Don't wait for people to ask for it either, just dink around and add stuff. Whatever you feel like. You do you. Anything codedly new to play with will draw people, and the presence of the people that want to play with the coded stuff will draw people that are just looking for folks to play with. It's this nice snowball effect that you can ride to your heart's content.
Right now wilderness play has a lot of coded mini-games to play. Hunt the thing, collect the doohickey, survive the freak monster, explore weird areas without being accused of trespassing. Not that the cities don't have a little bit of coded activity you can participate in, but it's just pretty lacking for any class that's not at least criminal adjacent.
So my advice to bringing people to the cities? Ignore everything people are saying on here, come up with some things you think would be fun to code or play around with, then do them. Some of them will flop, but that's fine. Just keep doing stuff you find fun. Even if you're not a coding member of staff, you can combine previously written coded items in fun and unique ways.
Ideas?
A coded festival with NPC-run activities that happens every IG month or so.
A new arm wrestling champion shows up at a local tavern.
Coded gangs that periodically push into more "civilized" areas, just kinda on the regular.
A new forgeable in a difficult to reach location.
NPC merchants hiring folks to mess with other NPC merchants.
The code will bring the players that are into that sort of thing. The players that are into coded stuff will make the city seem busier, which will bring other types of players, and because you don't need a constant high player base to keep the system working it'll be a lot more stable than most other endeavor.
Stoked to see responses on this. I play a lot in the city when I do, and it can be long stretches of empty. I don't have any solutions: a lot of the roles that are heavy plot makers in cities seem to be bound to staying inside cities (templars, militia mostly, nobles, criminals to a large degree, byn a lot of the time, GMH depending) some of which are worldwide plot makers as well. But that binds them to playing areas that are sometimes without players.
Just a bunch of problems with no solutions.
Most accessible skill gains are usually outside.
Most coin making is outside.
City politics is generally opaque and arbitrary with consequences that often lead to losing a character.
Many city leaders are just dangerous to play around.
City clans are often restrictive with punishingly long recruit phases.
Apartments should be a bonus to cities but they will be ransacked regularly.
Luirs is often a better place to find rare/quality GMH goods.
City exploration is often MORE dangerous than wilderness exploration with crit climb fails and opaque rinthi mugging code.
Hidden magicker roles don't really work inside cities.
Rebel/Renegade roles tend not to work inside cities (I don't consider criminal roles renegade)
I wrote in another topic, will do again. Overall system should not punish non cities but reward cities, it always works best like that.
- city room +2 to wisdom, you are enlightened by the presence of city culture. Or assume its Tek / Uteps touch
- scripted npcs that can teach you things
- more shops similar to those in tuluk but with more rewards
- combine 2 above to have something like: you remain in walls for x days and help rat hunt, gain training for slashing weapons
- citizen only shops or serious discounts to citizens
- npc script driven in city quests, special items for citizens upon completion of city tasks
The problem: nothing's really going on in the cities, for the most part. There's hardly anyone around, and even when there is, there's not much to do or talk about because nothing's going on. Even when people do meet up, they usually just sit there twiddling their thumbs because unless they can bring something to the table on their own, with (usually) nothing to work with beyond their own imagination and inventiveness, there's just nothing you can use to create roleplay. This means city RP is generally either absent or has this fake veneer of "this is something I came up with out of thin air because I'm super bored." It usually isn't backed up by any 'real' events or in-game realities, because there are none.
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Proposed solutions:
1) Make contact/psi cost no focus inside taverns. Yeah, that's a completely OOC construct, but it'll nudge people towards taverns and serve as the first step towards generating interaction. We can handwave it and say taverns are where people to go relax and enjoy themselves, and that gives them more mental relaxation to use psionics. The rationalization isn't what matters. The more important and connected your character, the more you're encouraged to go to a tavern so you can keep up with the Way. Perfect.
2) The process of creating a trading company or minor merchant house is prohibitively arduous. It takes such an insane amount of time and effort that, evidently, almost nobody does it. I think we can easily halve the time/resource requirements for TCs and MMHs that are based inside cities. I don't even know if it's possible to make an MMH that isn't based heavily on a city, but the ones that are expressly designed to be in-city operations should have an easier time getting off the ground.
3) Nobles need to have a stronger presence in the game. For the longest time, at least in Allanak, they might as well not have existed. You hardly ever see them, and even if you do catch a rare glimpse, it feels irrelevant when you've never heard of anything they did or any reason to interact with them. At the moment, the one and only purpose that nobles seem to have is the gemmed/Oash connection. Anything else feels completely dead in the water. I think that each noble application should come with a concise idea for a city-based plot that the player intends to carry out, and nobles who are never seen in public, and who do nothing to justify never being seen in public (e.g. extensive underground plots and intrigue) should be told by staff that they need to shit or get off the pot.
4) There needs to be something for the Byn to do inside the cities besides following their schedule in the compound. I'm not hugely fond of "quest scripts" where you go and tick some box and run some automated routine, but maybe something like that is necessary. I have no idea how strong Armageddon's scripting language is, but on other RPIs, we've had things like that and it tended to work great. Example: you go to a certain place in the bazaar and guard a stall. Sometime in the next hour, an automated theft attempt happens and the script runs some checks to see if you foiled the attempt. If you do, the stall's owner pays you 50 coins.
5) Similar to #4, but for criminals. Opportunities to commit crimes that go beyond stealing random people's stable tickets or whatever you can get your hands on. Randomized scripts that offer opportunities for criminals to go and rob a bazaar stall, mug an NPC merchant scripted to walk from one end of Theyak's Walk to the other, etc. And then the Byn and/or militia can have tasks of preventing it, and while there won't always be both a criminal and a protector there to attend the "quest," sometimes there might and it'll be interesting.
I'm not 100% sold on #4 and #5 because it's definitely more videogamey than what we're used to on Armageddon, but I'm prepared to say that it's worth trying. We had something similar in the past with the raider camps that would spring up in random places, but to my knowledge, it pretty much stopped being a thing after a while. It was interesting while it lasted.
6) The ability to more readily app into city-based clans with pre-generated roles that don't start from the bottom. I'm guessing we can currently spec-app into the AoD as a private, or the Byn as a trooper, but I've never seen it happen. Spec-apps are a finite resource and it feels a bit weird to spend them on something like that. It's also unappealing to wait potentially a week for the answer. Instead, it can simply be an option in chargen. On other RPIs, role postings were popular as they allowed veteran players to bypass the drudgery of recruitment if they weren't interested in doing that for the umpteenth time. These role postings can be taken down if a clan's population rises to the point where they aren't needed anymore. On other games, these would require karma and come with skill boosts, but it's up to staff if that's wanted.
7) The recent events across the world brought a huge spike in activity and general hubbub, although it quickly waned again. Events such as theses should happen more than once in a blue moon, and they should usually be designed to revolve around the cities. I'd go so far as to say that anytime there's a full RL month where nothing has happened that gives soldiers and authorities sweaty palms, the game has failed them. Ideally, players should be able to make this happen dynamically by just choosing to do things that accomplish this goal, but that's kind of a pipe dream. It self-evidently hasn't happened with the kind of regularity required to keep militia play appealing in both cities. In my mind, that's why we have storytellers. Their job is to make sure players in game-defining roles don't die of boredom.
8) Dealing with GMHs needs to be less frustrating. When you order something from them, unless it's something that they just happen to have in the warehouse already, it takes such a ridiculously long time to get your order filled that I must believe it can be handled better. What is it that makes it take so long to have something loaded up? When I order an item that I already know exists, why does it often take upwards of a RL month before the order is filled? What is causing it to take that long? It makes me not want to interact with GMHs at all. It gives me an 'ugh' sensation on a subconscious level.
9) For the most part, playing in the city becomes a question of "do I need this character to be skilled?" If yes, it's hard to justify spending a meaningful amount of time in the cities. Sparring in clans is nowhere near as effective as roaming the world at will, and yes, that even goes for the militia with its (sparsely accessible) sparring NPCs. The 'rinth is an absolute joke in this regard, too. The NPCs there simply aren't skilled enough to get you to a satisfying level of combat prowess, and people will treat you like the biggest cheater in the world if you even try, anyway. In Tuluk, there simply is no place inside the city for anyone to even attempt to become a fearsome crook. Not every character belongs in the Byn, and not every player is interested in going through that treadmill every time they want to play a character that has some moves. There were once select NPCs in the 'rinth that you could actually skill up on to a meaningful extent, even if it was vaguely frowned upon. They were all removed from the game. The place has felt completely dead ever since, because while it might be kind of twinky to go around grinding skills there, it was simply necessary for many 'rinth-based roles.
10) > where
There are currently 3 players in the Gladiator and Gaj, 1 player in the Red's Retreat.
11) Honestly, can we revert the code that makes it so you can't fucking see anything at night in cities? It's obnoxious.
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What's important for city play is the threads that connect characters, or groups of characters. There has to be a tangible reason for interaction. The OOC desire to interact can only take you so far, and not far enough if there's no substance to it. The city-based roles feel empty, propped up by make-believe and documentation that doesn't reflect the in-game realities. Aside from very recent events, what has your typical soldier PC had to care about in the last long while? What is there to do for a criminal? What political maneuvers could one make in the cities that actually yield feedback and results? In my experience, the answer, far too often, is nothing whatsoever. That needs to change, and the first step is to bring characters together so that emergent roleplay is created through sheer proximity. This then needs to be propped up by structures within the game that facilitate and encourage it, and lend it some meaning.
Once the building blocks are in place, the gaps should fill themselves in. If there's a couple of MMHs operating in the city, suddenly there's a basis for criminal roleplay as protection rackets, robberies and other such things become viable. This, in turn, gives law enforcement something to engage with. Nobles and their aides might get involved as well if they've invested in these endeavors, and suddenly there's a whole web of interconnected conflict, interaction and communication. This is what the game lacks. Everyone's just existing on separate islands with nothing linking them together.
What's going on right now is a great example of something super good, but I fear that it'll last a couple of weeks and then it's over, and what follows is a year of total nothingness where people die of boredom IRL. I hope to be wrong about that, but for me to trust that I am, I think the aforementioned changes will prove necessary.
Playing a city-based combat class is... Extremely difficult to keep interested in, even worse if you're lacking crafting capabilities to keep yourself entertained with. I'm not sure where or how this current PC will end up, but I'm determined to never play another combat class lacking in wilderness skills and/or crafting capabilities. Being eager to get back into the game probably prompted me to create a character rather quickly instead of taking more time to consider the roleplay vs actual entertainment factor behind their skill set design.
As some others have mentioned, the rules of "Don't go outside" in any clan is a bummer. Yes I realize why it's there, and I'm sure the day it went away if ever, you'd have five new corpses on the pile in no time, but survival of the fittest, good luck next time!
If there was some reason to goto the Gaj or whatever bar at night time, other than "The gates closed" it would draw people together probably. I know some games have done various things with taverns like, shows, contests, competition etc etc. Now do I know how we would do something like that in Arm? No fuckin idea, which is probably why it's never been done.
Everyone has their goals on their dude, so if you're a crafter, you're looking for materials, if you're a hunter, you're looking to offload said materials, grebbers etc. Maybe if the gathering spots like Gaj, Reds etc had some type of flea market (Stole this from Escape From Tarkov) where you could offer your scrab shell up for say 30 coins, and someone else could come search the flea market and buy it, then later you come back and collect what you're owed minus a fee to nenyuk of course, that would get me on the majority of my characters to have a reason that would benefit me, while allowing me to brush shoulders with folks.
My least favorite thing is selling to NPCs because I have to run around the whole big ass city to find the one or two guys who buys X. If there was a more centralized way to sell things and buy things, I'd even pay more to do it.
The other idea would be more city based jobs, right now there is shit shovelling and that's it, people need busy work, even if they don't need the sid, I'd rather go do something than sit around alone in a bar.
The trick with bar sitting too is that most people go sit there for a few minutes and go, fuck nobody is here, and log off a split second before another dude walks in. There is no incentive to idle in the bar waiting for interaction. Maybe if there was a command that let you know where things were going on. Like some games have a WHERE command, so they will type where in a city and it says, "There is quite a few people at the Gaj." "Nothing is going on right now in any established gathering spots."
The current who is not very helpful because it will tell me 20 people are playing, but then I run between Arboretum, Gaj and Reds and go, fuck they aren't here in town.
Also, I've played in some clans where the leaders would kick you out of the clanned compounds at dusk. (I had a great Byn Sergeant who did this) because there was no reason for your to spend dawn to dusk there, and then all night.
This forced folks to go to the Gaj or someplace and that allowed interaction. Right now I'm sure there is a ton of folks who might do whole play sessions behind their impenetrable clan compound's gates, and nobody can interact with them unless they way them. Should be treated more like RL work. I can't go to my job with a sleeping bag and work 8 hours then just chill out on the floor of my office. Why do we let folks do it in the game?
Quote from: Halaster on January 31, 2023, 11:32:08 PM
Quote from: Riev on January 31, 2023, 11:27:01 PM
If I were to play more in cities, there would need to be more emphasis, somehow, on people gathering in bars without OOCing "AFKish".
I was following you up til that line. What do you mean?
This is just a personal gripe of mine. Sometimes you walk into a bar/tavern, and there is a PC sitting at the bar. You come in, you emote a little, sit at the bar.
Then they send an OOC chat "AFKish".
Which basically means "I am here playing, but have no intention of interacting with you." or "I am waiting for someone else to log in so I am just idling here and will not be responding."
As a bar/tavern enthusiast, it is frustrating to see someone sitting at a tavern (a sure sign of wanting to interact with other players) only to be given the "You're not a person I want to play with right now".
Right now, the only reason to be city-bound is if your clan is forcing you to, which naturally for me means I refuse to play clanned unless it's a position that specifically requires my character to be outside - maybe on paper, it's fun to emote sweeping shit with no one around, or going to sit at an empty tavern for 20 minutes before you have to head back in for some sparring before logging off to play RimWorld. You're very limited in activities in a city, and barsitting, "wine sip rp" or ERP can only get you so far.
I think the Byn is fine how it is, you just need to find a few more players to pad out numbers so Indy crews of hunters who subcontract out for the GMHs are viable and so on.
I don't think the GMHs should have military or hunter branches anymore, just make a pool of hunters / grebbers and work with them to get supply contracts done. The Luirs police force / army should be also third or fourth party but more static in Luirs itself.
The reverse to the non-interaction in bars is the person who immediately gets offended when people don't show positive reactions to their breed/dwarf/nilazi mutant gemmer. That's just as bad. It's not discrimination (it is actually), it's a responsible social reaction to a lesser creature.
Quote from: Riev on February 01, 2023, 09:40:08 AM
Quote from: Halaster on January 31, 2023, 11:32:08 PM
Quote from: Riev on January 31, 2023, 11:27:01 PM
If I were to play more in cities, there would need to be more emphasis, somehow, on people gathering in bars without OOCing "AFKish".
I was following you up til that line. What do you mean?
This is just a personal gripe of mine. Sometimes you walk into a bar/tavern, and there is a PC sitting at the bar. You come in, you emote a little, sit at the bar.
Then they send an OOC chat "AFKish".
Which basically means "I am here playing, but have no intention of interacting with you." or "I am waiting for someone else to log in so I am just idling here and will not be responding."
As a bar/tavern enthusiast, it is frustrating to see someone sitting at a tavern (a sure sign of wanting to interact with other players) only to be given the "You're not a person I want to play with right now".
The follow up description could be more of a problem of IC/OOC. You can totally ignore another character ICly and emote, do your own thing, talk to the bartender, and ignore the half giant.
Emote goes up to bar, not even glancing at the blood covered dwarves
As far as being logged on and afkish in a potentially safer area, would you rather they be logged off? I've been in situations where I'm working, or the house is quiet, but then someone just arrives...maybe I'm cooking dinner but keeping my eyes on the screen...maybe I just hope to listen and observe.
I like to use change long description to something like change ldesc is nodding off in the corner, barely awake.
Quote from: Riev on February 01, 2023, 09:40:08 AM
Quote from: Halaster on January 31, 2023, 11:32:08 PM
Quote from: Riev on January 31, 2023, 11:27:01 PM
If I were to play more in cities, there would need to be more emphasis, somehow, on people gathering in bars without OOCing "AFKish".
I was following you up til that line. What do you mean?
This is just a personal gripe of mine. Sometimes you walk into a bar/tavern, and there is a PC sitting at the bar. You come in, you emote a little, sit at the bar.
Then they send an OOC chat "AFKish".
Which basically means "I am here playing, but have no intention of interacting with you." or "I am waiting for someone else to log in so I am just idling here and will not be responding."
As a bar/tavern enthusiast, it is frustrating to see someone sitting at a tavern (a sure sign of wanting to interact with other players) only to be given the "You're not a person I want to play with right now".
OOC: afkish
I use this fairly often. To me, it means I am playing, I want to play and interact, but RL is not letting me devote 100% of my attention to a virtual world, so please forgive any delays in response.
If I only played arm when I could give 100% of my attention to the game, I would not be able to play at all. Part of many of us "aging out".
When I returned to the game back in August of 2019, three out of my first four characters back were all assassinated within "city" walls. Tariq was Templar'd after 77 days of play. Gink was killed for OOC reasons but they used "law enforcement" to do it. My third was assassinated in an apartment (Templar directed, first supposed offense). Between them, I had nearly 120 days of play. This isn't a staff issue. It's a player issue. Players who "invent" reasons or exaggerate excuses for pk are the guilty parties here. Why would I want to continue to play in this sort of environment where my characters' lives who I heavily invest in are at the constant mercy of multiple other players? We talk about using "other methods" instead of pk, but Tariq could've been exiled, could've been maimed or branded, could've been fined, could've been a few things but wasn't. The go-to was pk. Gink was pk'd for OOC reasons, a character that I heavily invested in just to have locked in the Garrison cells and killed by his own Byn Sergeant who was then stored after I filed a complaint. The third, I at least appreciated the assassin who ended them because they gave me closure on who it was and why, still, the go-to was pk. No attempt to collect tribute or even mention of it. No other avenue pursued. Just pk within 24 hours.
So again I ask, why would I want to continue to subject myself to an environment such as this?
This isn't a staff issue or a gameplay issue. It is strictly a player issue.
I will say though, that I haven't experienced this in clans outside of the Cities. I rolled a delf awhile back and they never had anything anywhere close to the above. Not once.
I've also heard the comment "they've been around long enough" when referring to a character's longevity. That's the wrong mindset. That's an OOC mindset.
It's like people think it's some badge of merit to end a long-lived character. Do we need this type of validation?
They also target specific role calls. It's not enough to kill an NPC AoD Sergeant. You have to kill THE PC AoD Sergeant. THAT'S Meaningful! You can't just pk an NPC Noble, you have to pk THE PC Noble. You know, the one that someone is actively pouring themselves into and trying to enhance gameplay for a certain area of the game. A content creator/provider. We target leadership positions who are providing content and fun for players in a certain area, then wonder why an area is dead.
Tariq stood in the Gaj and had every single container on him opened. We complain that we want nobles to be more visible, but then we go through every single container they have while they're sitting there trying to be social and contribute to gameplay, then we turn around and complain that they're not public and contributing. It's a player issue.
As for what can staff do to entice my return to city play? I imagine a few things would be neat. Back in a day, you use to be able to over-hunt an area. That's not an issue anymore. In the cities though, you can over-steal/pilfer an area. The one NPC with the nice knife on their belt, you can only steal once. Then you wait until next reboot/reset. It'd be neat if there were NPC nobles that walked around with guards on occasion like the randomized spider nests, jakhal dens, and raider encampments. What if once a month, a heavily guarded Nenyuk agent made their way around to the Merchant House estates? What if NPC nobles moved in and out of their own noble estates every so often? What if once an IC year, there was a big spice haul or dust runner delivery to the rinth? What if random apartments were rented by NPCs and some items of value were left within (obviously depending on the quality of the apartment complex). What if we further had apartments patrolled by either militia or a security guard? They don't have to be omnipresent, but if they could at least move every other IC hour, develop a pattern for thieves to observe and work around.
We only give PC thieves a miniscule amount of options as compared to what the outdoorsy types have. Same with burglars. The environment within a city is more PvP than PvE whereas outside the walls, there are LOADS of PvE opportunities that continue to re-populate.
Maybe if we provided more PvE opportunities in the cities, that would help.
Overall though, I still feel it's more of a player issue than a gameplay or staff issue.
I feel like I could go on, but this post is long enough.
Minor Ideas:
I think the scheduled activities in some clans could use a bigger buffer for transit and socializing.
Example:
dawn - travel and prep for training.
early morning - official training start time.
late morning - training.
high sun - other clan activity.
early afternoon - other clan activity.
late afternoon - socializing start, clan activity ends immediately.
dusk - socializing.
late at night - socializing.
before dawn - socializing.
Currently, "be at training at the dawn and leave at dusk" leaves very little time to travel and meet other players.
**
I think there is a gap of knowing who the other players are in the city, and this can be solved by posting a 'whose who' on the IC Boards in terms of clan leadership. This can also be done on the GDB or outside the game.
**
I think "small tasks/jobs inside the city" could use another look. Collect rats, buy/sell jobs, steal specific items off npcs, etc.
(On that note, I think a lot of NPCs have had their weapons stolen from their belts/ coins in their inventory, and then the zone saved with them without weapons / coins, so thieves can't find people to steal from because their targets are already bare)
**
High-Level things:
The game is focused on getting players to leave the safe city, travel outside into the wilderness to collect items, and bring back to the city. That's the primary gameplay loop.
When you are outside the city, you can focus on using and gaining skills that are in your skill list, and doing activities that are 'dangerous' and also 'entertaining'.
One of the things I would suggest to read/watch is this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIzLbE-93nc
Or if you can't watch the video, to read this article:
https://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/bartles-taxonomy-of-player-types-and-why-it-doesnt-apply-to-everything--gamedev-4173
I think we need a balanced approach to the activities we create, for all types of players. I think if we lean to heavily on the combat code and focus on combat magicks, we will remove the socializer players who do not like combat, which will eventually remove some of the achiever players who want to show off to the socializer players who have left because the killer players have forced them to leave. And then you'll have the explorers and killers remaining, which means that we need to constantly build new areas and new mobs to have the players kill, because that's what the playerbase has shifted into, rather than the achiever/socializer players who remain in the cities.
**
Big Idea:
Magick characters are currently NOT ALLOWED in the cities. To intice players to play in the cities, you need to ALLOW MAGICK to be active, open, promoted, and not "AFRAID" and change the world to allow MAGICK to be friendly. If there isn't any characters in the cities, it's because they are MAGICKERS and the game currently tells them CITIES = DEATH.
Quote from: mansa on February 01, 2023, 11:54:45 AM
Minor Ideas:
I think the scheduled activities in some clans could use a bigger buffer for transit and socializing.
Example:
dawn - travel and prep for training.
early morning - official training start time.
late morning - training.
high sun - other clan activity.
early afternoon - other clan activity.
late afternoon - socializing start, clan activity ends immediately.
dusk - socializing.
late at night - socializing.
before dawn - socializing.
Currently, "be at training at the dawn and leave at dusk" leaves very little time to travel and meet other players.
**
I think there is a gap of knowing who the other players are in the city, and this can be solved by posting a 'whose who' on the IC Boards in terms of clan leadership. This can also be done on the GDB or outside the game.
**
I think "small tasks/jobs inside the city" could use another look. Collect rats, buy/sell jobs, steal specific items off npcs, etc.
(On that note, I think a lot of NPCs have had their weapons stolen from their belts/ coins in their inventory, and then the zone saved with them without weapons / coins, so thieves can't find people to steal from because their targets are already bare)
**
High-Level things:
The game is focused on getting players to leave the safe city, travel outside into the wilderness to collect items, and bring back to the city. That's the primary gameplay loop.
When you are outside the city, you can focus on using and gaining skills that are in your skill list, and doing activities that are 'dangerous' and also 'entertaining'.
One of the things I would suggest to read/watch is this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIzLbE-93nc
Or if you can't watch the video, to read this article:
https://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/bartles-taxonomy-of-player-types-and-why-it-doesnt-apply-to-everything--gamedev-4173
I think we need a balanced approach to the activities we create, for all types of players. I think if we lean to heavily on the combat code and focus on combat magicks, we will remove the socializer players who do not like combat, which will eventually remove some of the achiever players who want to show off to the socializer players who have left because the killer players have forced them to leave. And then you'll have the explorers and killers remaining, which means that we need to constantly build new areas and new mobs to have the players kill, because that's what the playerbase has shifted into, rather than the achiever/socializer players who remain in the cities.
**
Big Idea:
Magick characters are currently NOT ALLOWED in the cities. To intice players to play in the cities, you need to ALLOW MAGICK to be active, open, promoted, and not "AFRAID" and change the world to allow MAGICK to be friendly. If there isn't any characters in the cities, it's because they are MAGICKERS and the game currently tells them CITIES = DEATH.
I would love to point out, dawn is in fact used for that, sparring doesn't begin at dawn, it begins at early morning. Everyone just gets all over excited and starts at dawn, then gets mad and frustrated when Runner ActuallyGajRP's hits the sparring hall at early morning after breakfast.
There needs to be a unique resource found in each of the two cities that cannot be found in the wilderness.
There needs to be a reason for having "outside" clans trek into the cities to sell / trade / gather that "unique" items. Not a reason for city players to request the "outside" clans to enter - but a directive for each "outside" clan to have a mandatory reason to travel into the two cities and get it.
If the "outside" clans have no incentive to interact with city playing characters INSIDE their cities, then the gameworld is telling them they don't need to interact in that zone. That is a game design decision.
-The Xenophobia in Tuluk is cool as flavor, but stifling at best and strangling at worst when it comes to interaction, even antagonistic interaction. Ideally there would be checkpoints at crucial points in the city (Say, leading to the Heart, just as Allanak has gates/walls for the entire Templar Quarter). High Market, another place for checkpoints. Otherwise I would say let the RP dictate -- You could perhaps consider code similar to the "Militia Gear" where NPCs report non-citizen sales to available Templars (kinda like criminals/jailer code), to act on or not. Let Outsiders try and infiltrate at the very least, or exist in Tuluk and be ostracized. Right now I see most people who aren't Tuluki just avoid Tuluk, and probably for good reason.
-Accessibility of Plots. One of the highlights of Tuluk pre-closure was how I could roll a day 0 nobody and walk into the Sanctuary and probably find a job, or two, or plots to get involved with. It felt very RP centered (who you are, what's your story) rather than skill based (how good are you at hunting). That zeitgeist has changed it seems, but it would take Leadership PCs (within their power) taking more chances on Day 0 Nobodies. One might argue that this is more of a waste of time -- they might just die in a few hours. I don't mean 'invest materially'. I mean make them an offer. See if they follow through. Create the opportunity, open the door, and see if these PCs walk through it. The 'Buy In' to plots requiring you to be journeyman/advanced in most skills is a big part of the problem in cities. This is not Tuluk specific, but I do think it always made sense in Tuluk that Nobles were looking for partisans -- They simply had to play a part that fit into their mold. They didn't need to be Uber Talented from the get go.
-As DesertT pointed out, the longer a PC is alive, the more chances they have of running afoul of the Templarate. The same can't be said of Wilderness PCs -- Desert Elves, Tribes, etc. Much more of a meritocracy, way less corruptable in the city-politics sense. The risk of being 'Templar'd' in some respect just seems to increase the longer you stay alive in a city, if you aren't a Noble or Templar yourself (and even then). I'm not sure what this equation is. Or why it exists, even anecdotally, but I think it's something to consider when asking the question 'Why do people not play more in cities' or perhaps 'Why do people not play exclusively in cities?'
-If you want people to play more in cities, there needs to be less attention paid to the following:
-Tribes
-Magick
-New Races that are Tribal and a new Tribe
-Re-Opening Desert Elf Tribes
-Focus on the Wilderness
I think much like with parenting, the Playerbase is following Staff's lead. If Staff is working on shiny new things in the Wilderness, they are going to want to try them out (Thryzn). If Staff is working on shiny new things in the City, they will try it out (Tuluk, for example). In order to maintain people's interest, there needs to be a reason to invest their time in the City.
There should be More Stories told in Cities. More Plots on a world scale happening in Cities, not outside of them. Otherwise, people will just follow Staff's lead (More Stories being told in the Wilderness) and make Wilderness adjacent PCs.
Ideas for City Plots:
-Veiled Alliance. A great foil from Dark Sun that can be re-named and re-purposed. Something akin to this operating in both City States creates new dynamics that aren't just 'Tuluk v Allanak' ad nauseum. These terrorist cells might equally despise Sorcerer Kings the world over, working against both City State's best interest. It also provides a different avenue for PCs to pursue that isn't bow and scrape inside of cities. It's a way for PCs to provide antagonism, and plot driving stories, without needing to do all of the heavy lifting themselves.
-Invasion! Nothing unifies the playerbase more than invasions, such as the Gith Wars, where Allanak was over-run with Gith for a couple RL weeks. It was intense, it's fun, it's hard, it's something that exclusively happened inside of Allanak. Same could be said of the Bat Invasion in pre-Closure Tuluk. It was a uniquely Tuluki problem -- You had to be in Tuluk to experience it.
-PvE threats that aren't automatically repelled by City Walls. See above -- Most of the time 'Raider Problems' just don't affect people that never leave Allanak. Most of the world spanning plots are nullified by Sorcerer Kings and their servants. So if you are behind walls, you don't need to interact with it. That should change. I would even posit it could change by some event (earthquake) destroying the city walls. You'd still have crime code on the streets, you'd still have soldiers patrolling. If you're worried about big NPCs coming in and destroying things...Well, you could make a buffer of 'NO_NPC' rooms around the cities. But otherwise maybe that would create plots/problems of their own? IT would also bring the Outside WOrld into the cities, which is currently 100% avoidable.
Quote from: mansa on February 01, 2023, 11:54:45 AM
Big Idea:
Magick characters are currently NOT ALLOWED in the cities. To intice players to play in the cities, you need to ALLOW MAGICK to be active, open, promoted, and not "AFRAID" and change the world to allow MAGICK to be friendly. If there isn't any characters in the cities, it's because they are MAGICKERS and the game currently tells them CITIES = DEATH.
Let a Magneto like NPC defiler take over the known killing all mundanes, and everyone is magicker.
It'd be hilarious to have a sort of Red Wizard (Forgotten Realms) city state where they are Highly Xenophobic, rarely leave, are all magickers, and practice necromancy and all sorts of wild things, and enslave mundanes for their experiments.
In fact that would be an awesome non-playable PvE threat.
PVE in the city vs NPC criminals and NPC threats that come around regularly enough to threaten the cities but minor enough to not need more than a PC unit or two to stop.
IE look at DesertT's suggestions. The wilderness is dynamic. The cities are stagnant.
There needs to be something for city-bound combat roles to do outside of RPTs. Even getting coins to buy goods to practice crafting skills can be nearly impossible in some cases. You can't go out without the fear of IC consequences.
If your pc leaders aren't on or don't have time when you do you are SOL.
You need a day to day attraction to attract a PC population big enough to have more dynamic pc on pc interaction to open up.
There are 3 "role" types. Criminal Wilderness and City. Within those you have a scale of combat to crafting.
The problem is that all dynamic, interesting Pve content is for wilderness types. There is very little focus on City and Criminal dynamic content. These roles NEED other PCs or there is next to nothing for them to do. They need a hunter to bring raw materials. They need an officer to take them on patrol. They need a pc target from which to steal after the first two npcs are looted.
Meanwhile the wilderness role can go out and hunt/pick/forage to supply themselves or others with or without others. They have a dynamic spawning system and actively moving wildlife to interact with. They have forage tables galore. They have challenges to overcome.
Yes, PC interaction is the best but you need something to fill the downtime and something to participate in together outside of sparring or bar roleplay. You need "quests" in the vein that wilderness PCs can make up for themselves. Wilderness PC knows he needs herbs for making cures. He goes and gathers and may bring others into what could be a routine action or could turn into a fight for survival.
A criminal can do this to a lesser degree but risk/reward there is incredibly high much of the time.
What if city clans got a discount at the Gaj? I've often found that when I was playing gmh/byn/AoD, I couldn't afford even a single drink. I think all tavern should have a 10 coin or less drink. I think these are way out of relationship with the rest of the economy. A cheap brew should not cost more than a cheap shirt.
Suggestions -
1. Provide incentives - Lessen the time, requirements and need to wait on another player for creating a trading company. There is little incentive in playing an aide because it's generally the most dangerous position in the game as it's a primary target. Add back Mdesc hiding masks for criminals to enhance more ability to hide, but gated behind certain clans that make it cheap enough they can be junked or maybe they break on being removed, but not allowed to be handed out.
2. Remove clan blockers - Remove the life oath for AOD/Legion and replace with 1-to-5-year contract terms but incentivize loyalty/reupping.
3. Encourage plots - Sponsored leaders in noble/templar roles should have the support and strong encouragement to push and create plots to involve others. While I am not currently playing, while I was, there was almost 0 conflict between the cities which was one of the best benefits.
4. Remove minor event blockers - Not everything has to be major. Most events are blocked by a need for staff or a sponsored role. I would love to see a place where "Minor" arena matches could be planned and created by more common individuals.
5. Give clans purpose - Relook at what the scope of clans and redefine them for playability. IE: The Byn who in recent times had essentially seemed to become nothing more than a GMH escorts, barring a few minor moments.
People often complain about the skill grind, maybe we can kill two birds with one stone. What if sustained time in the city makes your PC better at learning skills. Skill gains earned inside the city have a chance to be doubled based on the percentage of time your character spends inside/outside the city.
It can be RP'd as specialization. No need to find a safe place to sleep, or hunt and cook your own food. You can devote that time to virtually practicing what your PC cares about because the infrastructure of the city provides options you just don't find out in the wilderness.
I think you'd find a large resurgence of characters at least starting out in the city if that were the case. And some might leave, but hopefully others would make RP connections or choices that keep them around.
I like a lot of those ideas.
Cities need to be a source of something that's unavailable in the wilderness. Be that material, or tools that easily expire, or rooms that offer a sizeable bonus to crafting.
cities need a number of mini games that people can do during the lulls of logins.
If cities are attractive enough, then risk of being templared would become acceptable.
If it was somehow possible for Noble House competition between each other be dynamic. So individual character efforts had visible effect on the city state, people would feel more involved.
Granted. Main reason why people congregated in cities is because it's safer and more comfortable there. But comfort is an eatherial concept and cities are definitely not safer.
Quote from: najdorf on February 01, 2023, 01:31:10 PM
Quote from: mansa on February 01, 2023, 11:54:45 AM
Big Idea:
Magick characters are currently NOT ALLOWED in the cities. To intice players to play in the cities, you need to ALLOW MAGICK to be active, open, promoted, and not "AFRAID" and change the world to allow MAGICK to be friendly. If there isn't any characters in the cities, it's because they are MAGICKERS and the game currently tells them CITIES = DEATH.
Let a Magneto like NPC defiler take over the known killing all mundanes, and everyone is magicker.
I think this is actually an excellent example as to why "the stick" doesn't work. People will just keep playing what's fun to them no matter what. This is a game, after all.
Quote from: najdorf on February 01, 2023, 04:17:17 AM
I wrote in another topic, will do again. Overall system should not punish non cities but reward cities, it always works best like that.
I like this point. What benefit is there to playing in a city? Thematically it's safety and access to food and water, but that doesn't really hold up with PCs like it does vNPCs.
I like a suggestion later brought up, as well, that skills increase more in the city. That reflects a lack of distraction from having to haul water and fight off raptors off screen. It's also an actual benefit that if done well could be the difference between someone waiting around for RP that grows, or wandering to find it and missing everyone else moving around.
I don't know if that's the right idea, or something more like Halaster's "off screen xp gain" should apply to city bound chars, but it's in the right direction.
Quote from: Lutagar on February 01, 2023, 03:15:11 PM
Quote from: najdorf on February 01, 2023, 01:31:10 PM
Quote from: mansa on February 01, 2023, 11:54:45 AM
Big Idea:
Magick characters are currently NOT ALLOWED in the cities. To intice players to play in the cities, you need to ALLOW MAGICK to be active, open, promoted, and not "AFRAID" and change the world to allow MAGICK to be friendly. If there isn't any characters in the cities, it's because they are MAGICKERS and the game currently tells them CITIES = DEATH.
Let a Magneto like NPC defiler take over the known killing all mundanes, and everyone is magicker.
I think this is actually an excellent example as to why "the stick" doesn't work. People will just keep playing what's fun to them no matter what. This is a game, after all.
Eh. If there's a benefit to playing in the city, I think without karma timers this is a non-issue. There's just not any reason to be a hidden magicker inside a city.
What DesertT posted on the previous page echoes with me a lot.
I got back into the game in early 2021 - almost two years ago now. I've had four characters die to PK since then, and all four involved the templarate. Every single one.
None of these characters were habitual thorns in their side. None of them got beaten upside the head or told 'pay me a large to forget about this' or were even inclined against the templarate in the first place: they were just dudes doing their thing. Nevertheless, all four of them got killed because of the hair trigger temper that seems to come with blue robes, and these four templars were even four different people.
I did get sick of this, eventually. Enough that I went to chill and play elsewhere - RSV, Morin's, and Tuluk when it reopened. Suddenly things were much more chill. I can just play the game and do cool stuff and not die because some rando who's been around for the past two years decided this lowlife fuck must die for just existing. Earlier this year I could genuinely tell my (non-southern) area of the game fill up with people even as the Discord swelled with people noting templars had been really harsh as of late.
So. Yeah. Kill me arbitrarily, easily, gladly, with no escalation, and I'm just gonna head to where that doesn't happen. Northern templars have yet to behave like that, Luir's and RSV don't have the issue, tribes don't either, and people have gone off to play where they don't have to die boring deaths.
Not a big mystery to me.
I've always really enjoyed playing in cities. The vast majority of my PCs do. When I have played in the past, cities had more people.
I do wonder if the increase in wilderness skills through the pretty strong wilderness classes has allowed people more solo flexibility to avoid cities altogether. Historically, it was a lot harder to be so wilderness capable unless you were a ranger. Now you can be warrior/pseudo rangers/gick people.
Things I would suggest or throw out as ideas:
* Emphasise the differences between city and wilderness play further. What is exclusively found in cities and impossible to get in the wilderness, and vice versa? Not everything has to be available to everybody always - in many ways, it's easier to survive outside of cities than in them. That's a problem.
* Ease the reins on magick fear and paranoia in the cities. Integrate magick a bit more, instead of suppress it. Magick doesn't have to be in our faces or be the key to all plots and goals, but people clearly want to do or be cool magick stuff. Maybe tolerate certain elements a bit more, let them work for certain clans and GMHs.
* Make safe living spaces less accessible outside of cities, and more accessible inside cities. Let people have little homes - generate them virtually even, if they're citizens in decent standing.
* Citywide Way options?
* Increase city gameplay options - can we have turfs and places for PCs to contest and take over, using automated systems? Can we have more flexibility in building things, or player clans and shops? Randgen sewer dives? We're roleplayers, we want to change stuff, achieve stuff. The cities aren't very dynamic, and we may need some coded support to unstick them a bit.
* Rewards or benefits to being loyal citizens / access to cool rewards / promotion pathways, even as non noble or templars. Let people be cooler or have something to work for.
* In terms of subtler gameplay drivers, I've always felt a global coin is harmful - I've suggested it on discord before, but have city based currencies, and forex systems that tax swapping between them. It sure might be easy to make tons of Blackwing Bucks or Red Storm Rands, but they don't convert cheaply into Tuluki Talers and Nakki Sids. To me, cities represent wealth, industry and political power. Drive it home.
lol at these suggestions to "make magick more integrated to the cities." As if recent events haven't proved that if you let Magick PCs have any social freedom in the game world they won't band together into Dumbledore's Army. They're powerful PC options, people will pick them and browbeat anyone else in a region. If you want them involved in the cities, nerf their combat utility at least.
DesertT and Patuk have made great points. One of the main drawbacks of playing around a city has been playing around Templar players. They should be closed to PC play and left up to staff, or Staff need to do a much better job coaching the players they've selected.
eta: I really like the idea of there just being more stuff to DO in the cities, as well. I've enjoyed the small jobs and crafting grinds currently available, but there really isn't all that much to do PVE wise that doesn't devolve in to pickpocketing the same tattoo artist or clubbing the same set of NPCs along a road over and over.
No PC Templars is an idea, but a better one is - Templars aren't in charge of common crimes, they're part of the AoD/War Ministry only. If you lose non-staff Templars, you lose a lot of the plotting and interaction between the city states/luirs/etc.
Having them app into no ministry and have to earn their way into one makes them overeager go getters too often. Have one trade and one war slot in Allanak and similar in Tuluk in terms of focus and you solve 85% of the problems with Templars imo.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 01, 2023, 04:48:25 PM
As if recent events haven't proved that if you let Magick PCs have any social freedom in the game world they won't band together into Dumbledore's Army. They're powerful PC options, people will pick them and browbeat anyone else in a region. If you want them involved in the cities, nerf their combat utility at least.
I'm not sure nerfing them for choosing to live in the city will really inspire them to chose the gemmed life over Dumbledore's Army.
Quote from: lairos on February 01, 2023, 02:18:53 PM
2. Remove clan blockers - Remove the life oath for AOD/Legion and replace with 1-to-5-year contract terms but incentivize loyalty/reupping.
3. Encourage plots - Sponsored leaders in noble/templar roles should have the support and strong encouragement to push and create plots to involve others. While I am not currently playing, while I was, there was almost 0 conflict between the cities which was one of the best benefits.
5. Give clans purpose - Relook at what the scope of clans and redefine them for playability. IE: The Byn who in recent times had essentially seemed to become nothing more than a GMH escorts, barring a few minor moments.
1. Life Oaths to anything, barring a sponsored role, are ridiculous. I know for a fact lots of players will avoid clans with such requirements intentionally.
2. I like this idea, and would take it a step further and request that staff have an existing plot line they need pushed for every sponsored role request. To me, this is vital, and I liken it to an open position at a company. Unless there is work that needs to be done, you do not open a position. I think the same should apply here.
3. For the life of me, I do not understand why a "Mercenary" clan cannot be hired to do anything. Assassinations, Hunting/Skinning, Escorting, private guarding. If the intent is that they only do escorts, which is 90% of the contracts they receive, it should be the T'zai Byn Escort company.
4. Magickers do not go into cities because of Cities equal Death in Tuluk, and in Nak, you are a collared
slave, and if not you die. In truth, You are actually worse than a slave as templars can kill you any where. So there are two issue I have with playing a magicker in nak:
A. Because a PC Slave with the potential to be killed at any moment, or die on the spot.
B. If you become a slave, you instantly have a bright beacon on your neck, that can not be hidden, that says Kill me.
The game in general needs to respect player time more.
In the wilderness and as an independent, you have far more agency. You can do what you want, when you want, where you want, without having to tolerate the people and experiences that turn your RP fun time into chore time, or snore time, or I-want-to-log-off-fuck-this time. You aren't on someone elses schedule, you don't have some jackass with half-giant NPCs on tap following you around, doing their level best to ruin your experience.
What's even more important is that in general, the conflict you find will be with other players who had to invest the same time and effort as you to earn the power they have, so they have as much to lose as you do. My own experiences, dated as they may be, are that people who are out and about in the world are a lot less likely to start unnecessary trouble, because they're not exactly eager to roll up a new character, either.
By comparison, Allanak and Tuluk tended to be populated with some of the most petulant and abusive social roles, bored nobles with nothing better to do that cause trouble for commoners and soldiers and Templars chomping at the bit for an excuse to use all that unearned power they've been handed. Being a new character in a city usually resulted in people with far more power punching down at the earliest opportunity.
As far as clans go? You're earning a few hundred coins, free food and water and you get a cot in a dorm until you've spent a few RL years in the clan. In return, you're subject to obnoxious rules that don't respect your time, the revolving door of sponsor roles where the next one might be the one who decides to take a shit on your because you pissed off their last character and you're completely at the mercy of someone else to decide who you're primarily going to be RPing with.
Maybe things have changed, but from browsing the forum, it sounds like being in the city and being in a city based clan is still a completely garbage deal.
Subject yourself to all the limitations, risks, irritations and disappointments of a city or... go hang out with chill mul friends in Red Storm and go on cool adventures.
Replace "mul" and "cool adventures" with literally whatever it is that makes the game fun for you, because there is at least one other person out there who is down to hang out and do that fun thing with you, without the overwhelming negatives that come with being in a city. And you get to do it all on your own terms, on your own time, with no pressure to accommodate any or everyone else. What's the down side? No bank? You don't ever need more than a few hundred coins, so who cares?
If you want more people crowding into the city and for these thematically 'coveted' jobs to actually be something players want to do, they need to come with a lot more benefits. I don't mean a free pass to punch down socially, because nothing turns people off being in a tavern faster. I mean a much more impressive pay scale, better lodgings or access to apartments with locks that aren't total garbage so people can play house without finding their sofa nailed to the ceiling, easier access to the finer things that normally aren't available to independents, mercenaries and other people. If they want a hot tub? Fuck it, let them buy it. It's in the database, they're members of a reputable organization and they have cash, so let them spend, spend spend. Nobles already have everything built into their estates. Who else is going to buy it? Let the clanned 'elite' enjoy some pretension.
Ease down on strangling gemmed out of society entirely, so people actually want to hang out for some Temple commune stuff. You don't have to make it cool for people to bang witches, just let them get regular work and interaction without non-witch players being afraid of losing their karma or getting one of those negative account notes staff love so much. It's obvious people are really into magick and related play. You can get them back into the city if you just throw them a bone. Let every house hire a 'house mage' or something. Make it a super coveted, limited spot, so you can have semi-socialite mages like way back in the day. They can defend their position and others can attempt to oust them to take it.
If people want to play mutants, let them get hired into merchant houses if they're talented enough. They don't need a fair shake, but it'd be at least interesting to see Lady Jugsworth forced to buy her jewelry from some guy with feathers instead of hair. Let them hire half-elves. They used to. Even Fale has half-elves. Let them get in on the clan action, too. It's an easy, easy, easy way to let people play the characters they want and have legitimate reason to interact with different tiers of society, from elf all the way up to nobles, without it always being 100% negative, combative, slavish or potentially deadly.
Ease down on the city elf suppression and ease up on the city elf docs, so they aren't absolutely shoehorned into being disposable pick pockets. We let dwarves have a huge leeway on what they consider to be a focus, let elves have as much leeway on what it means to steal. Let them get the lowest jobs with merchant houses. Make it okay for them to run their little business without being there exclusively for bored AoD to completely clean out and destroy as soon as possible.
Create an anti-establishment clan in Allanak so Templars and AoD have legitimacy, rather than just being lazy executioners and bullies. Dark Sun was thick with fun 'resist the evil empire' type themes and Armageddon has almost none. Tyranny without a foil is boring and stifling. They need something real to sink their teeth into and obviously, enemy cities haven't historically been very good bread and butter for them. Each city needs a very real internal threat that can't be erased with hands of wind into the arena.
Ease up on the limitations on reading and writing, if only so we can leave notes for our neighbors and do fun plot related bullshit. Let commoners have their own crude script. It'd be fun if everyone could create a journal that outlasts their pc. Be a historian, collect dead peoples writen works. Not like most nobles ever really bothered to do fun things with read/write, at least not something more than five or six people could enjoy. Hell, make it a two karma sub, so it isn't incredibly wide spread, just accessible.
None of this even requires code adjustment, since even the clan code already exists. Maybe the read/write sub would.
Give players an opportunity to play what they want, in settings they want.
It isn't like people don't like the city themes, it's that even years ago they were getting so stifling and punishing that being a breezy tribal was a hundred percent more rewarding. It you want to see more people in major cities, all you have to do is not make it a shitty, stifling, limiting experience. See above. See all the feedback in this thread and others. Don't get hung up on how sacred you think the docs are, because they're nothing special and hanging onto them instead of your players is a ridiculous notion.
Bring back coffee. Bring back explosives and traps. Make both exclusively available in cities, available to citizens of their respective city state only. Make lots of stuff limited by citizenship, so wilderness types don't hold all the trade cards. Force the outliers to come to the city for sweet coffee drinks, or explosives for "mining" purposes. Tuluk loves tea, coffee makes sense. Allanak has a huge mining operation, explosives make sense. Kind of.
There are lots of things that can easily be adjusted with a simple decision at the top and an hour or two revising some docs to make the game so much more appealing, especially to people who have limited play time. My overall take from this thread and other, similar threads, is that players feel their time and investment isn't being respected. The easiest way to appease the majority is to stop curtailing them from doing the things they want to do, since they'll just do it anyway... just in some far flung corner, rather than in the historic social hubs of the game.
Quote from: Vwest on February 01, 2023, 06:16:13 PM
The game in general needs to respect player time more.
In the wilderness and as an independent, you have far more agency. You can do what you want, when you want, where you want, without having to tolerate the people and experiences that turn your RP fun time into chore time, or snore time, or I-want-to-log-off-fuck-this time. You aren't on someone elses schedule, you don't have some jackass with half-giant NPCs on tap following you around, doing their level best to ruin your experience.
There's also always something to do, 100% of the time, which is a big plus for me. You can hunt, get crafting material, find bodies, explore, discover stuff, map the world, etc.
If cities had more jobs to do (like an automated quest-giver of sort) then it would probably keep people in the city. You would have something to do that is meaningful if there aren't anyone of interest in the taverns.
Ideas on Making Cities More Playable:
1) Gathering Spots
a) Make spots accessible
b) Make those spots a relatively safe space to hang out - meaning guards and soldiers stationed there inside and outside at night
c) Incentivize players to need to go to these places, maybe health, stamina, focus, and stun can recover faster resting in the dorms here.
d) Tuluk has a tavern that's all the way across the map, many people don't know exists, and who's NPC constantly runs out of inventory. Allanak has two major watering holes, one of which is "improper" for highborn to stop in, making it less likely for interaction to occur.
2) Shrink Cities and Make the Layouts Make More Sense
a) Banks nearer to taverns and market places
b) No taverns hidden across the map with little meaning to enter
Swap those for ...
3) Create more "Flavor" spots
a) Little areas to go talk, gardens to walk, special "spots"
b) Rooftops with beautiful sunsets, etc... Tuluk has seen a myriad of those with it's rebuild, which I generally really like
c) Little jobs and things, pet markets - floof
4) Make Renting an Apartment Worth While
a) Make clan apartments and servants quarters where people can come and go with less risk more common and a perk of being in a clan. A few clans I've played in have these options but they're rarely used.
b) Make non-clan apartments more than death traps. Make them more easy to exit in case of an emergency. Make them harder to steal from. Give people the option to buy really nice well guarded apartments.
5) Let People Have a Come Up
a) Give unaffiliated commoners more room to grow
b) Let them buy slaves if they have 50,000 coins
c) Give them the option to make minor and even major merchant houses that can rival the current GMH instead of relegating them forever to the small time
d) Don't just keep character run companies going on in perpetuity even when no one is around
6) Kill the Dull Idle of City-Life
a) Make more than a few basic crafting goods available to crafters that don't have 24/7 access to a gatherer PC
b) Flesh out shops for shopping, tighten up shops that are perpetually closed or empty
c) Allow in game characters more social mobility instead of always role calling. Do IC role calls, leader for the Atrium, bards, shop keeps, Sergeants of companies. Allow people to vie for more than aide roles and hunter #20.
7) The Democratic Rise Up of 2022-2023 in an Authoritarian Land
When I first started playing Arm fifteen sum odd years ago or (whatever it was) the cities were teeming with players. Now we've entered a catch 22 where people don't play because there's few people in the city, and there are few people in the city because people don't play there.
There's now clans in-game, some of which were started by PCs which is awesome, but that support is all outside of the city. We now have fully populated "democratic" factions of PCs that want to escape freedom and tyranny.
When I first started playing you had your people in Allanak and Tuluk. They were vying for power in their respective cities and they were vying for power between the two cities. There were a few outliers that lived in between. You had elves running about, you had Kurac mostly based in Luir's and you had Salarr and Kadius in both Tuluk and Allanak equally, always riding the razor edge of keeping them both appeased.
During the time of the Luir's Counsel the GMH began to almost be like minor nobility. Now the GMH all owned an outpost and voted like a republic on dealings that had to with the Outpost and had their own military force AKA the Garrison.
We're now working backwards from that mindset. Tuluk is somewhat newly opened. It doesn't have a major GMH presence. Although lore wise and macro wise there's a big incentive to enter a market that was inaccessible there's no real IG incentive on the micro level.
So you've got a lot of factions working around and outside of the law. This has caused a shift from allying between the two city-states with a few outliers cropping out to making the outliers the majority and the city-states the minority vying for the favoritism and allegiance of the GMH and myriad of factions in the Vrun and Gol.
From a playability standpoint, it used to be that playing in the city and allying with the big bad there gave you some level of security, financial wealth, power and status by proxy. That is now gone. You can get killed in a tavern in one backstab and the NPCs won't blink an eye. And with the city-states being rivaled by the myriad of factions (New Menos just fell as we all saw here on the GDB) we've now gone against the lore of the game, which is that the city-states were these untouchable monoliths of power in the game.
So generally the game is shifting socially away from viewing the cities as these living breathing forces to be reckoned with, and we're seeing that reflected in the sparse numbers. Not only that, that kind of role play is going to come more naturally to many and allow them to feel they're genuinely playing the hero. Most of us don't approve of slavery and corruption out of character, and a lot of us are facing the repercussions of it. So it makes sense people will gravitate towards wanting to "fight the power."
Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily. But as support continues to focus on those outside of the city, it doesn't surprise me that players aren't being incentivized to play in cities. Personally, I'm unsure how thematic it is for PCs and factions successfully enacting messages of freedom and individualism in a feudal, collective society is. It's not to say it can't be and I can definitely see it being a fringe movement but's currently a huge part of the game.
That's also a big simple answer of why people are slipping from the cities. Before there was a tension where if you didn't fit in in the city, your options were (as they should be thematically) limited. You had to play the game and mind yours ps and qs with the templarate. When there are multiple powerful factions in game allowing you to circumvent that, why live in the city permanently?
8 ) Let People in the Cities Feel Like They're Part Of
I will say staff has been doing better about updating the IG and OOC boards but often times the ones getting involved in plots are the ones that can go marching out of the city. That ones pretty self explanatory.
Problems:
So the thing that drove -me- from the cities, majorly, was very much like DesertT's comment, it was really the actions of other players. I played a mundane in the war times in 2021, and it was one of the best experiences ever. I loved the participants doing stuff together, banding with our groups. There was still a lot of that emptiness with the playerbase, I think (not hitting 40-50) that detracted from that but it was really sweet. Then that PC got dumped and clan killed by another PC after they attacked, NPC swarm. Stopped playing for about eight months.
The character immediately preceding that walked into Luirs, had been in-absentia-crimmed by a PC with no warning, dead to NPCs.
Next character rolled into the rinth, and as a 4 hour old character got rolled up on and killed by a 3K mul PC.
Every PC I've played by myself out in a tribe, in Storm, or out in a desert cave, has been a blast. Surrounded by raiders and badasses who guess what - never ever blitz killed my characters off. You can find camaraderie, roleplay your character the way you want; as as long as you don't meaningfully fuck with someone else's sandbox you probably are not going to get ganked, because a lot of those players out there are seemingly in the same vein. Yet in the city? You get your sandbox kicked over. That -really- sucks. So the options are basically roll into a city as a role app, and then you have zilch all minions cause everyone's tired of getting crapped on.
Problems part two - agency and goals in the city:
I feel like a big issue with the cities is that players are so stymied when approaching things they want to do or achieve. They're limited in the clans they can join, the things they can do, the places they can go. Noble Houses, GMHs, etc are so less capable of creating a cadre and advancing their plans and plotlines because they can't have -people-. Let the Borsail Wyverns scowl across the Retreat at the Jal Scabs, let Tor plan an assassination against the gemmed Whiran scout that the upstart Salarri is using. Have political maneuvering over Byn contracts, patronage of trading companies, tribal relations, whatever, and have some sort of meaningful goal and progress. People get super into conflict, especially when its low burn and when people feel like they have an even chance. A close fight, betrayals, murder - that gets people's adrenaline pumping. People come back for more of the kick when they feel like something big and major has happened, even if they're on the rough end of the stick, if they had some sort of agency in that outcome. What players hate is getting griefed, or tossed in a cell and PK'd because a templar thought it expedient, etc.
Probably the most important thing there is that agency and investment comes from purpose and fellowship - characters and players need to have a sense of allegiance to other PCs. Comrades in arms, drinking buddies, people wearing the same House colors, a squad who would -die- for their sergeant, templar, or noblelady. Otherwise, they're going to go make friends outside at Storm's End tavern. Let those Houses and clans roll deep.
A noble, instead of some rando non-interactive person who just gets sids and buys clothes, should have a posse. They should be simply pointing fingers and having a crew of people who freaking love being logged in together jump to. Characters should be clamoring to join the clan and join the action. I think way more of a guiding force should come from the nobles rather than have templars be the sole 'MAIN PCS' of either city. Right now, nobles are kind of an afterthought. Around for flavor, but pretty impotent. The more that goes on noble / GMH / trading company wise, relieves a TON of crap the PC templar has to deal with in terms of making fun / starting RP / policing everyone. They should be doing templar things.
Solutions?
1. I've already mentioned one in allowing Houses more freedom in hiring. Like - why are we scared of this ? Let people be -aligned-, otherwise we're going to keep seeing a ton of unaligned, high karma mages and muls zip around. Because there's not a lot of other cool options. But I really, really bet that people would flock to being a Tenneshi mundane farm manager, with responsibilities and player minions. They'd flock to being a part of a Tor elite squadron that was intent on establishing outside bases for their house glory. Make the Houses far less static - Allow all these different things players do to matter. House Terash was created by a PC, there are roads named after PCs - that's what people are trying to build. Let Jal start reigning supreme, carving out a bigger mansion. If Kasix hasn't done shit? Let them fade to a closed VNPC estate and have one of the many, many historical ones or a new PC one step up.
2. CLOSE THE BANKS - Seriously - banks are like some old DIKU crap. Even this tax thing is pretty ludicrous when PCs can print money. There's very little scarcity, so have it actually be jeopardize able. If you want stuff safe, keep it in a compound, bury it in some secret location, or pay an actual PC-run Nenyuk house or company to keep it. Or even just restrict banks to Nobles, Templars, GMH and player-run MMHs/orgs. Tribals, outland magicians, rinthis and commoners don't need a bank account. Who the heck would even remember an elf showing up on their doorstep for their account? Make the only ones able to withdraw across the world GMHs. Or remove them entirely. If people worry about stuff getting twink-broke into, just establish that any mega-crime has to be far in advance planned and run by staff, just like a PVP murder.
3. Definitely agree about more stuff to do in the cities activity and game loop wise, plot-wise, RP wise, as people have noted. Relaxing the restrictions is also pretty good so people don't have to sit in compounds. But don't make everything mage-friendly. Magickers should have downsides. The fix isn't just to make everyone play subguild mages in the city. Make mundane city roles more enticing because you aren't sitting a cave spamcasting and waiting for the randos outside to show up. Right now it's super prevalent because again, you get the best of both worlds: doing what you want, roleplaying how you want, and there's a ton of people out there driving those plots. Shift players into the city and people will gravitate away from playing gicks and muls because they want to be involved with stuff.
What would entice me more?
Less murderous Templars, nobody wants to play around Judge Dredd.
One had hand broken for making a joke with a superior, that is fine and I appreciate not being murdered for it, but I don't really enjoy that subservient roleplay back to back, so I maybe play 1/3 or 1/4 of pcs as city pcs.
As a soldier PC your own leaders are the most dangerous thing to you even if you want to play the slightest bit corrupt, corrupt law enforcement are more realistic in a world like this than non corrupt, in my opinion.
I'm talking about Allanak of course, I have always said Tuluk templars needed nilazi antimagick stuff on them instead of what they get. No (or barely any) criminals in Tuluk makes it more boring for me, and the Templars can really sort out any problem themselves.
More stuff to do within the city would entice me though, more fun and productive activities for citizens of both cities.
Bebop's post, like always, got me thinking. Maybe it is time for the city states to go and turn the world into outpost and villages. It would allow you to actually have that sense of community and closeness people have spoken about, and it would allow the players to start making alliances with other villages for goods and supplies. Leave Luirs outpost as the last great stronghold, where where all the merchants reside.
I was skeptical about the Mul outpost deal, but right now I think it works and is an excellent idea of what this game could and should be, people working together towards a common goal.
I dunno, just a thought
They'll just all turn in to Hogwarts too. It'd be very hard to balance thematically. I'm not sure more wish-fulfillment power fantasies are the answers. Templars living those have made cities almost unbearable, and now the wilds are going the same way.
More places for players to band together and work towards goals that aren't wiping out other PC Groups would be ideal, both in and out of cities. With how combat in Armageddon works, as soon as you have one sufficiently powerful group it's nearly impossible for the competition to catch up. People need more PVE opportunities to work towards, as a group.
Quote from: Bebop on February 01, 2023, 09:11:11 PM
Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily. But as support continues to focus on those outside of the city, it doesn't surprise me that players aren't being incentivized to play in cities. Personally, I'm unsure how thematic it is for PCs and factions successfully enacting messages of freedom and individualism in a feudal, collective society is. It's not to say it can't be and I can definitely see it being a fringe movement but's currently a huge part of the game.
That's also a big simple answer of why people are slipping from the cities. Before there was a tension where if you didn't fit in in the city, your options were (as they should be thematically) limited. You had to play the game and mind yours ps and qs with the templarate. When there are multiple powerful factions in game allowing you to circumvent that, why live in the city permanently?
I wanted to add three other things to my post.
1) This dynamic of having so many democratic, free the people, or "mini GMH nobles" in the game not only makes it incredibly difficult to inspire people to play in the cities when there is so much other enticing things going on but it also makes leadership in the role funnel towards a lack of conflict. As I said you've got city-states now vying for the friendship, power or at least cooperation of the outlying factions instead of the GMH begging the cities to let them into their economy and the small factions begging not to be wiped out. Instead of people inspiring conflict or standing their ground, the game meta seems to be I just befriend everyone or act like I befriend everyone. That is not very combat or conflict heavy.
I don't think, as it stands, that's thematic to the lore that we have. We either need to shift back to the city-states having power and being hubs of vast influence or we have to, as Krath said, just treat the city-states like another random faction in game/disband which... I don't think anyone wants to see. Or at least I don't.
2) This dynamic makes things INCREDIBLY hard for leaders like templars or nobility, who already don't get a ton of interaction sometimes. It basically puts the players of these roles in weird positions where they are supposed to be powerful, corrupt, and have a place in game to create (hopefully slowburn, quality) RP and makes it so that they have been neutered and are instead vying for the power and friendship of smaller factions. It's backwards.
I feel bad for these roles, having played several leadership roles myself. People want them to be fun, but not too over the top. They want them to start conflict but the conflict they want - and just enough. They want templars to be scary, but not so scary they push people inadvertently away. They want people to last, and not kill to many people but engage them in conflict.
It puts PC nobles and templars square in the role of being forced to be a villain and not one with a lot of mobility. They are given the skills they're given, they're stuck in their cities and they are forced to be reactive. When this trickles down, it makes cities in general an odd place to roleplay, where in order to ensure people don't leave and such now templars and leaders are placating underlings, not leaving them. Which brings me to...
3) Exile and Power in the world over all. Back in the day, I got exiled more than a few times. Or perhaps I was a criminal that fled either city. Luirs was not a scot free option for fleeing. Because the GMH wanted to maintain business in the all powerful city-states a Templar could often pay them to off the character in question. They had reach. And many times, before GMH began to feel like mini-nobility they would oblige. Now, because of the individualistic nature of the GMH, and having the Outpost and the Free People in the south there are so many ways to simply defy the cities. The reach of the cities simply does not go as far as it once did.
If people can't have direct power, they like to have power by proxy. The small factions enable this. The city-states don't even currently have many ways to empower their templars, much less those that want to role play their loyalty to them.
Something only has as much worth as you say it has worth. If the cities are going to be representative of a major force they have to be represented as that by staff in game. They have to have reach. The GMH have to want to appease them. Uprising factions have to have a reason to fear them. Otherwise, what is the point of there being city-states if they are represented IG as equal to the others in social equity and player numbers?
GMH would probably be more keen on engaging with the cities if the Templar-players weren't so keen on antagonizing them. I can think of at least one GMH who got killed simply so the Templar in question could have a fancy knife for free. This eventually (I believe) prompted some pretty serious IC responses just to rein in such behavior.
I really liked the Den of Wonders because it did something the game really needs to make Allanak viable, I think:
it gave a place for criminal PCs to go and hang out and /generally/ not worry about lawful PCs arresting them. They could co-exist for a while. My criminal elf PC smoked spice in there constantly, to the dismay of the staff sometimes admittedly; once hid out in the latrine from the law; pretty sure I pulled a knife on someone in there and ended up not friends but yknow not enemies; and it's probably the only place he'd sit down on the south side because it didn't ever seem like any more trouble would erupt than 1v1.
Even if it could, who knows. But that was my impression of that bar and I think that vibe is very necessary. Rinthi elf PCs literally risk their lives going south to roleplay every time they go, which is fine, but there should be one place that they can go safely and also the types of PCs that would pick on them feel safe because they're not quite in the rinth, they're just... really close. it's lawful ish.
Connecting the smaller populations in the same city together in a manner where they can roleplay with a reasonable expectation of no consequence for simply being there is my suggestion to allow more interaction inside Allanak.
A few people have hit on these ideas already. To me, one of the things that makes wilderness life more desirable than city life is the ability to go out and do something productive even when no other PCs are around. A city PC is kind of stuck waiting on other PCs to make things happen. Some in the thread have commented that there should be more PvE in the city and/or new things to do.
Some ideas:
-Add some NPC thugs to the city. Think rinthi-style muggers in the alleys between the main streets. This would give soldiers something to go do.
-Add some nobles or merchant npcs that walk around and can be mugged by PCs
-Add a NPC that is a rogue magicker in some hard-to-find room
-Add a merchant that sells pinches of spice in some alleyway. Give him his own guard in case the soldier type wants to arrest him.
Would these create immersive plots that make the game for someone? Probably not. But if you give PCs things to do when there are no other PCs around, eventually there are enough PCs in an area that plots will start happening.
Quote from: Olverdirn on February 02, 2023, 07:16:18 AM
A few people have hit on these ideas already. To me, one of the things that makes wilderness life more desirable than city life is the ability to go out and do something productive even when no other PCs are around. A city PC is kind of stuck waiting on other PCs to make things happen. Some in the thread have commented that there should be more PvE in the city and/or new things to do.
Some ideas:
-Add some NPC thugs to the city. Think rinthi-style muggers in the alleys between the main streets. This would give soldiers something to go do.
-Add some nobles or merchant npcs that walk around and can be mugged by PCs
-Add a NPC that is a rogue magicker in some hard-to-find room
-Add a merchant that sells pinches of spice in some alleyway. Give him his own guard in case the soldier type wants to arrest him.
Would these create immersive plots that make the game for someone? Probably not. But if you give PCs things to do when there are no other PCs around, eventually there are enough PCs in an area that plots will start happening.
I've suggested before, and it seems time to suggest again:
Add the Wilderness Raider NPC code/Jakhak Den Code to cities in some manner. Undertuluk, Rinth, etc. Create occasional havens where NPC criminals will reside who, at night, will patrol a path and become aggressive. Give the militia something to do, make the streets a little more unsafe at night, etc.
Quote from: Riev on February 02, 2023, 10:36:27 AM
Quote from: Olverdirn on February 02, 2023, 07:16:18 AM
A few people have hit on these ideas already. To me, one of the things that makes wilderness life more desirable than city life is the ability to go out and do something productive even when no other PCs are around. A city PC is kind of stuck waiting on other PCs to make things happen. Some in the thread have commented that there should be more PvE in the city and/or new things to do.
Some ideas:
-Add some NPC thugs to the city. Think rinthi-style muggers in the alleys between the main streets. This would give soldiers something to go do.
-Add some nobles or merchant npcs that walk around and can be mugged by PCs
-Add a NPC that is a rogue magicker in some hard-to-find room
-Add a merchant that sells pinches of spice in some alleyway. Give him his own guard in case the soldier type wants to arrest him.
Would these create immersive plots that make the game for someone? Probably not. But if you give PCs things to do when there are no other PCs around, eventually there are enough PCs in an area that plots will start happening.
I've suggested before, and it seems time to suggest again:
Add the Wilderness Raider NPC code/Jakhak Den Code to cities in some manner. Undertuluk, Rinth, etc. Create occasional havens where NPC criminals will reside who, at night, will patrol a path and become aggressive. Give the militia something to do, make the streets a little more unsafe at night, etc.
Something equivalent to the jakhal dens but are actually illegal speakeasies (with two or three pinches of spice offered for sale) in Allanak seems like a really awesome idea. The 'search' skill can be utilized more.
When there's fun stuff going on in cities, people play in cities. Anyone remember SpiderPlot in Allanak back in the day? I bet Case does. Anyway, that was a lot of fun, and you could only be in on it if you were actually in Allanak.
A lot of this is a player culture issue. People don't want nobles at taverns, but they want nobles to be more visible. Ya'll can't have it both ways, or maybe these are mixed messages, I don't know. The thing about nobles is that they need minions because they literally can't do jack shit. Few people want to play noble minions because it's an invitation to just get killed or shat on. Nobles can't really protect their minions, even though they ought to be able to. *shrug emoji*
Nobles shouldn't get socially punished for being in public and having fun. That's a culture issue, not a coded one.
The same things with templars leaping to killing people instead of having an antagonist around. That's a cultural issue, not a coded one. Not every templar is like that, but a few bad apples have really ruined the bunch as far as that goes. Perception is reality.
That templar role call where there were a shit ton of responses make it clear that people want to play templars. Again, options are good. Maybe templars need to put in a TPS report before they're allowed to kill players instead of after. Maybe require them to wish up and get approval if not put in a request. Maybe it should be made known to the players at large that that's the new system so that they might give cities another go. Yeah, it's not on theme. But you know what else is not on theme? Not having many players in cities.
Moving on. People sit in private areas to craft because there aren't good public crafting spaces. The new (to me at least) crafting system is very neat. It's uncool to craft in taverns, because crafting can be spammy, resulting in a lot of people just crafting in their insert-storage-space-here (apartment probably). There are rental crafting areas, like you can rent the spider silk place, or you could the last time I was playing, or you could rent a clay hall.
If you make crafting spaces require rent and be behind locked doors, how are you ever going to see if there are people in there to interact with? However, if you had a visible public space for crafters to gather, they'd gather there. Or at least I would. I once played a jeweler who crafted on a bench outside the Red's Retreat and you better believe people would hang out a minute and talk, at least until I needed too many tools and materials to conceivably carry and had to get an apartment and could no longer be visible. Maybe have a crafting space where crafters can rent keys to have a place to store a very limited amount of material and their tools, I don't know. Or be able to rent tools for one or two coins, provided that you give them back. What crafters have now is rent apartment to store materials, stay in apartment to access materials. That doesn't make interaction easy.
Edit to add: Oh, and you can't send a way without breaking concentration. That's really dumb and, again, cuts down on interaction.
City types are often crafty types. I don't know how long I've rallied against the idea of only being able to sell a limited number of things to shops and instead having that work on a sliding scale, but it would probably result in more materials being available in cities and result in more hunters coming into the cities to sell their extra bones. I can't tell you how many times I left a pile of bones just out in the wildnerness because the materials shop buys five bones. That's really dumb ya'll. That person in Elfville (I forget the name) who always takes extra things for a lower price, why is that guy not everywhere? I used to drag stuff from Elf Camp to him all the time. It was another thing to do and it didn't pay a lot but coins incentivize people.
Supply and demand 2024.
Especially with the economy tweaks, where you can't sell six tents and make 6000 coins.
I like the idea of bar focus. You know where it isn't fun to lie on the ground because you're trying to way someone? The bar. You know where you can do that? Your apartment/merchant compound/noble compound. In my opinion, the focus change, which was probably meant to make people interact more, has incentivized in completely the wrong direction. When I have to lay on my GMH couch to way everyone and their brother about their orders that I can't fill because I have no crafters to fill them, I'm not out in public.
Finally, get over this idea that there are too many options or we should start closing stuff to forcibly shrink people to a certain thing. You can't force people to do things they don't want to do. If it's more enticing to play outside the cities, people are going to play there. If you force the people who like to play in the cities outside the cities, they aren't going to want to play. Just let people play what they want to play. Use the carrot not the stick.
That is all.
Valeria makes a lot of good points. So did Riev with the idea of a spawning thing, and kankfly's smokeeasy is a brilliant idea too. I'd love to have search be more utilized with some signs about it like a message about people moving in and out of a door quietly or something to mark the areas.
I'm going to "me too" Valerie's great-wall-of-text for the most part.
There's way more to it that cuts into the heart of a game culture which, I feel, will stagnant if we let it. This is not a staff issue. It's a player issue.
Longevity leads to leadership and leaders seek, above all else, longevity. They (with few exceptions) don't take a lot of risks and don't want their unit/clan/house/cartel to take any risks either, and they clamp down hard on initiative.
This leads to leaders hovering in the compounds on the Way couch. Jabba the Hutt got out more than most of these people do. And because their houses look boring, they either don't attract minions or their minions join, see the Giant List of Rules their new boss demands they follow to promote longevity and they nope the fuck out of it.
This impacts crafters, merchants, people who sell to merchants, and even criminal pc's (with the exception of elves who are good at being independent scumbags and making their own fun.)
To be fair, I have not interacted much at all with any current leaders of these types of groups. I'm not blaming any particular person or group, but rather trying to point to a cultural issue I see.
Get out. Take risks. Build stories. Die. Rinse and repeat.
I sat on a rooftop above the Gaj for 3 RL hours last week and saw exactly ONE player. While there were over 40 people online. We probably won't agree on the cause of that, but I bet we could all agree that it's a bit of a problem.
Quote from: valeria on February 02, 2023, 11:27:01 AM
City types are often crafty types. I don't know how long I've rallied against the idea of only being able to sell a limited number of things to shops and instead having that work on a sliding scale, but it would probably result in more materials being available in cities and result in more hunters coming into the cities to sell their extra bones. I can't tell you how many times I left a pile of bones just out in the wildnerness because the materials shop buys five bones. That's really dumb ya'll. That person in Elfville (I forget the name) who always takes extra things for a lower price, why is that guy not everywhere? I used to drag stuff from Elf Camp to him all the time. It was another thing to do and it didn't pay a lot but coins incentivize people.
Yes...This.
Quote from: Miradus on February 02, 2023, 01:43:20 PM
I sat on a rooftop above the Gaj for 3 RL hours last week and saw exactly ONE player. While there were over 40 people online. We probably won't agree on the cause of that, but I bet we could all agree that it's a bit of a problem.
Let me challenge this bolded statement for a second...
Are there things that could make the city better? Sure.
Would it be awesome if we had more players leading to more people in ALL the areas? Sure.
Is it a problem that people may -want- to play somewhere other than what has historically been the center of the Armageddon universe? Eh... I say no. Nakki players said the same when Tuluk was slow/closed.
Maybe the game needs to shift, adapt from time to time, like it did when Tuluk closed, or when most of the tribes were closed.
I don't want to see Allanak shut down or blocked off, but I also don't want it expected that Allanak must be fully active and filled with PCs for the game to continue to be enjoyable for players and staff to fool around in.
I am always leery of (my perception) conversations like this turning into the eventual "People aren't playing what/where I want them to, so how can I make all other options less attractive?"
Obviously, Halaster and the rest of staff are not intending to do this, but a lot of vocal players tend to feel that way, and often times, that ends up being the result.
There are times the Pah is empty, there are times Red Storm is empty, there are times when Luir's is empty, there are times when Tuluk is empty. Sometimes there are going to be communities (tribes, PC created clans, plot devices) that draw players out of the cities for extended periods of time. I don't think this is necessarily a "problem" So much that it is simply a reality.
Getting the city folks closer together through city redesign in a way that doesn't eliminate options (like temples/apartment buildings/barracks) would be a good thing.
Incentivizing desert PCs (that can legally do so) to come into the cities from time to time would be a good thing.
Creating "Cracks in the system" that allow PCs who aren't legally allowed in from time to time would be a good thing.
Making Sponsored leaders work together OOCly to make sure there is something going on every weekend would also be a good thing, make that part of being a leader role. Set up a GDB clan for leader roles with a calender and ask them to try to fill at least one weekend every other month with something that features their clan.
Quote from: valeria on February 02, 2023, 11:27:01 AM
Maybe templars need to put in a TPS report before they're allowed to kill players instead of after.
The game has needed this level of moderation since basically forever. It's needed because players generally can't be trusted to play the game in a considerate manner and staff can't be trusted not to just give them a pass for it.
Edit: To phrase it a different way. Players don't play in cities because players don't trust each other. If you want people to be willing to take risks and tell cool stories? I honestly don't think the player environment allows that to happen. Loss aversion is real, losing a character is painful and I have NO trust that other players will give a shit about it. I've taken risks to try to tell cool stories and I got smashed into the dirt the first opportunity. I tried again and it happened again. How many times does that have to happen before people learn not to bother? I have learned not to. Players have learned not to trust each other so acutely that they feel less vulnerable in the supposedly hostile wasteland.
I've tried out some of the other games out there. Even other games with PK permadeath. They had much healthier player environments and much more interesting player interactions because they simply insisted that there was a proper procedure to player killing. It was refreshing and eye opening to just bounce characters off one another without having to worry about them saltily arrowing me to death the next day.
I think the real answer to Halaster's question is to find a way to foster trust between players so that they're willing to take risks on each other.
Quote from: Kankfly on February 02, 2023, 11:09:38 AM
Quote from: Olverdirn on February 02, 2023, 07:16:18 AM
A few people have hit on these ideas already. To me, one of the things that makes wilderness life more desirable than city life is the ability to go out and do something productive even when no other PCs are around. A city PC is kind of stuck waiting on other PCs to make things happen. Some in the thread have commented that there should be more PvE in the city and/or new things to do.
Some ideas:
-Add some NPC thugs to the city. Think rinthi-style muggers in the alleys between the main streets. This would give soldiers something to go do.
-Add some nobles or merchant npcs that walk around and can be mugged by PCs
-Add a NPC that is a rogue magicker in some hard-to-find room
-Add a merchant that sells pinches of spice in some alleyway. Give him his own guard in case the soldier type wants to arrest him.
Would these create immersive plots that make the game for someone? Probably not. But if you give PCs things to do when there are no other PCs around, eventually there are enough PCs in an area that plots will start happening.
Something equivalent to the jakhal dens but are actually illegal speakeasies (with two or three pinches of spice offered for sale) in Allanak seems like a really awesome idea. The 'search' skill can be utilized more.
There are areas in Allanak you can go to find spice. And shady things. And lots of stuff to search.
But I've seen a ton of people point out it's not worth maybe dying over, and they're right. And it's a HUGE hassle to change outfits if you even have another, so the known way around being jumped by NPCs (only part of the danger in my beloved rinth) is basically unusable. Not worth the effort.
I think it would be beneficial for a clear path to the central bar in the rinth - not a confusing passage, not a bunch of rooms, but a quick and easy way to get from Hathor's to the Mantis without being attacked by NPCs. Post a dozen thugs outside and people have to sneak out the same way they would've if they were heading into the rinth, unless they leave the way they came and head back to Hathor's.
This would also have a huge benefit in that rinth PCs and southern PCs would have a relatively safe spot to interact. The Mantis is safer for your belongings than the Gaj by far, by in game and thematic enforcement, and I'd say safer than any bar in the south for your life because of the same reasons. Having the central place they can interact be one criminals do not ply their trade in for understandable reasons is key.
Quote from: valeria on February 02, 2023, 11:27:01 AM
Edit to add: Oh, and you can't send a way without breaking concentration. That's really dumb and, again, cuts down on interaction.
Would be cool if mercantile classes had access to a perk that allowed them to Way while crafting. edit: Or even a perk that reduces strain of using the Way to communicate.
Sort of like how wilderness classes have a perk that lets them forage for food or tame a mount.
Quote from: lostinspace on February 02, 2023, 03:02:00 PM
Quote from: valeria on February 02, 2023, 11:27:01 AM
Edit to add: Oh, and you can't send a way without breaking concentration. That's really dumb and, again, cuts down on interaction.
Would be cool if mercantile classes had access to a perk that allowed them to Way while crafting. edit: Or even a perk that reduces strain of using the Way to communicate.
Sort of like how wilderness classes have a perk that lets them forage for food or tame a mount.
And wilderness quit. I like wilderness classes, but by golly they get a lot of perks. Makes me want to only play them sometimes.
Edited to clarify: I want other classes to be as attractive for different reasons, not to take this away.
Like being able to print money? ;)
With 3 pages worth of responses, I'd love to know which of these many ideas the Staff feel lean in a direction they could feasibly go.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 02, 2023, 04:47:58 PM
With 3 pages worth of responses, I'd love to know which of these many ideas the Staff feel lean in a direction they could feasibly go.
:like:
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 02, 2023, 04:47:58 PM
With 3 pages worth of responses, I'd love to know which of these many ideas the Staff feel lean in a direction they could feasibly go.
"Other players are the problem"
Because it lets us off the hook and we don't have to do anything!
Heh, I'm kidding. I'm waiting to let this percolate a bit more, but there's definitely ideas we like in here. By no means is this the only one, but I really just dig the idea of taverns requiring considerably less Focus to use "psi".
Quote from: valeria on February 02, 2023, 11:27:01 AM
Maybe templars need to put in a TPS report before they're allowed to kill players instead of after. Maybe require them to wish up and get approval if not put in a request.
Templars ARE supposed to wish up before they kill someone already, at least in circumstances that aren't someone engaging them in combat or committing high treason in front of them, and in my experience, they do.
But, otherwise I don't think requiring them to put in requests and wait days before they take action is a realistic expectation, and I don't think it's fair to levy that on templars but not the rest of the playerbase when templars are already given the most staff oversight and scrutiny of any role that exists, especially when it comes to uses of force and killing.
Honestly I feel like people blow the amount of PKing templars actually end up doing way of proportion regardless, especially when compared to other character types that engage in PVP. I understand that templars have the power to wield crimcode, but abuse of this is already punished. Having played a couple templars in the past, most of the time it would be impossible to submit a report and wait a few days every time you might be expected to kill someone. You see a nilazi raising a corpse in front of you. What do you do? Capture him, greatly risking yourself, and leave him in a cell for the days it takes to get a response? (I did this in a similar situation myself, it was miserable for all of us and staff just eventually said 'yes you can kill them'). People find your mind telling you that there's a sorcerer just outside the city attacking a group of soldiers right now and they need help. Do you just ignore it? Do you go there and try to arrest the defiler and drag him back INTO your city to a cell? You stumble upon an elf that's been wanted for months for killing a noble and who the city has been searching for. Do you just pretend you didn't see him?
On that topic, you might actually be
only talking about manhunts for wanted people. If you're wanted by the templarate (or have been doing things that might make you wanted by a particularly observant populace, like sorcery) and you still choose to hang around in the alleys or taverns, some templar finding you and trying to kill you is something that you have to expect and that you already signed up for.
Maybe you're only talking about when a templar is killing someone who hasn't committed a crime in front of them and isn't an active threat to them or the city, like someone who's been bad mouthing nobles or not bribing them enough. When it comes to those things, templars are already not meant to, and generally don't, PK, at least in Arm today.
Then there's the occasions where a templar kills someone due to falsified evidence, a framing attempt. If someone is framing you and trying to utilise the templarate to get you killed, that's sort of just a part of this political game full of murder, corruption, and betrayal, where the story isn't always fair, and where a Templar asking staff first would only result in permission to do so, or the passing on of meta knowledge or direction influenced by meta knowledge, and I highly doubt any staffer would opt for the latter.
I honestly believe that people pin a lot more on templars than they deserve. There are other kinds of characters who kill far, far more, with similar or greater levels of power, and do it indiscriminately, but no one is arguing that we should moderate Amos the raider with his band of six master bludgeoners more, or the elf mafia leader and his swarm of sneaky poison stabbers who kill anyone who so much as blinks at them funny. Templars already have the highest level of direct moderation than any other character type, and they are given the least leeway when it comes to PKing. This is not a problem that can be solved with 'moderate the templars even more'. They can't be blamed for literally every issue guys.
(Added a lot more via an edit, because for some reason part of the post was submitted before I had finished it)
And yet other games manage it. Shit, just leave the elf in the jail cells or find a less permanent punishment for them.
Good templars are already reporting up to the moment of PK, wishing up prior to PK and reporting after PK.
Quote from: Bebop on February 02, 2023, 08:08:36 PM
Good templars are already reporting up to the moment of PK, wishing up prior to PK and reporting after PK.
Yes, and it's not just a case of 'good templars do this', it's a case of 'if you don't do this there are consequences'.
Every time a Templar killed my character I was sitting in a tavern more or less minding my own business before I got the ole' Allanaki high five and sent to the cells. One time I was there because I was literally looking for a Templar to bribe and build a rapport with. It's about as infuriating as you might expect.
I really don't care about the Templars skirmishing in the sands or dealing with big bads. And for what it's worth I don't think I've seen a Templar kill an elf on the first offence either. None of that is even marginally close to the poor faith play that I think me and other players are talking about.
Despite having not lost a PC to a templar since about 2004, I can say that I feel for a lot of the people putting that reason out there. I killed a tiny amount of pcs during my time in the role, and only one was an outright kill (to be fair, he was pushing for it, so he got it XD). But those players not knowing the intricacies of why they died in the way they did is something I completely understand them being jaded on, especially if they've lost several pcs, and at times to actual nonsense.
I don't know the solution to making templar pcs not kill indiscriminately, but finding something that works might certainly make people feel more comfortable playing.
My thoughts on this, despite being a 90% city player, are along the lines of others poking at there being less to do in comparison to the wild.
About a year or so back, I was inspired by what I saw going on in the Den of Wonders, and put in a request with some pretty constructive discussion on something that could help alleviate that problem. I need to re-open that conversation eventually when I stop failing at playtimes. It revolved around adding mundane roles to the city that would foster rp for players that want to exist in roles that don't really require PC boss oversight as clans do.
My specific idea was a server role in the Gaj. The character in question would app for the role (or it could be automated in time!), and be 'clanned' into a role of 'server/wench/attendant/watev' with the City-State of Allanak. The character would then be expected to play their role, and rp as a server in the Gaj for a reasonable amount of their time online if wanting to keep said job.
Perks of the job were discussed, and if I remember right, pay would have been minuscule so far as 'sids went, but the server would have the advantage of a discount on Gaj items, and could charge a little closer to listed price (but still a little cheaper maybe) to pcs that utilized their rp to order instead of buying directly. That would let the pc make a few coins on every order. Additionally, I was inquiring about more perks, such as a hole in the wall apartment for the pc so long as they were employed. It'd be literally a tiny hole with room for a few things, but would have the character right there to report to work.
I think such roles as this would not only give bored pcs that don't want to spam dung/salting, or leave the city ever (why would most ever WANT to risk the sands?), but it could attract players that would love to interact with those roles. Giving a rowdy group of byn an actual waiter to color their evening with interaction might be a memorable experience that keeps them coming back. (or the waiter messes up the order and gets pummeled into a pulp!)
This could lead to several different roles around the city-states, maybe even roles in smaller towns as well.
-Courier: NPC generates a package to deliver to random places, gets a token for delivery to bring back and cash in for necessities/small coin/etc.
-Bakery workers: Practice cooking while stocking the shelves of X place.
-Brothel Worker: A certain outpost has a perfect setup for this one already. Get nice clothes, perfumes, etc to sit around and FTB disappointed fools for an hour a day!
-Rat Assassin: Help clean up the streets, get a stipend and a hole in the wall/tent on the roadside to be on alert for rats in the way. Bring it back to X to be ground up and fed to orphans!
-Wagon Wiper: Get fed/paid to clean up the wagonyard weekly. Dust off the wagons so those rich jerks that could actually afford one come back to their rolling home proud, blah blah, have some food, or a tent of your own in a corner of the yard.
Likely not great examples, but I'm sure some pretty awesome rp-based roles could be dreamed up for sure, that might entice people!
I know that I already said my piece, but here's another point:
During role calls for the larger clans (like Byn, AoD, Garrison, Legion, what have you), maybe hire the top two folks.
In the case of the Byn, offer one the role of the Sergeant and the other the role of a Senior Mercenary or First Trooper, someone who is literally in the wings, waiting to lead their own unit.
This way, when a leader dies or is killed, whatever, there is an IMMEDIATE replacement available instead of numerous players waiting around for a month or so for new leadership to arrive.
That is a detriment to any clan like the Byn (imho) whose subordinates count on said leader to provide fun RP experiences like contracts, patrols, escorts, combative training, and things like that.
Yes, they can still RP on their own, but we've seen how well that's worked a few times.
I would like to see sideshow areas get a real push. Rolecalls and rpt's combined to inject some activity and fun. Maybe every other month or so we could see staff say, Yo, April is going to see the Rinth get seriously pushed. We will have several small or med RPTs, gang fights, a fire, blahblah. In preparation for this, we are wanting a few roles filled in the Guild, eastside elves, etc. Everyone else who is in between roles, you should consider getting rrrrreal dirty because there is going to be an effort at lots of animations, opportunities both staff-pushed and grassroots, and lots of chaos. Nothing WURLD CHENGING or whatever but an effort at bringing these fringe areas to life, with a dedicsted staffer or two to stir stuff up and hopefully hook a few long-lived characters to maintain the activity after the Push is over and the focus moves on.
In June, we'll do the equivalent in Tuluk's Upper crust. August, the Nakki Commons, etc.
Quote from: Dune Bunny on February 02, 2023, 08:27:24 PM
My specific idea was a server role in the Gaj. The character in question would app for the role (or it could be automated in time!), and be 'clanned' into a role of 'server/wench/attendant/watev' with the City-State of Allanak. The character would then be expected to play their role, and rp as a server in the Gaj for a reasonable amount of their time online if wanting to keep said job. ...
I love everything about this idea, except for the 'reasonable amount of time' part. It could be fun for people with low playtimes as a thing to do, since it would have a lot of built in interaction. It would also allow PCs in these RP-heaving commoner roles to have a very legitimate reason to hang out in bars, do a lot of interacting with other players, and maybe run tiny bar-based events like cockroach racing or card night.
Staff can already set it so that certain clans get discounts at specific shops. Apping into the role like you would a delf clan and having staff put you into a "server" clan that gets deep discounts in bars seems like it would be already supported by existing code and quite doable.
It wouldn't just have to be Allanak in terms of setup. It could be a "server" clan in general, with the discounts applied to any barkeeper anywhere, to keep it simple. Someone could in theory codedly go from serving at the Gaj to serving somewhere in Tuluk, but also the rule could just be 'don't do this' and it would be pretty easy to enforce.
Quote from: valeria on February 03, 2023, 10:34:50 AM
Quote from: Dune Bunny on February 02, 2023, 08:27:24 PM
My specific idea was a server role in the Gaj. The character in question would app for the role (or it could be automated in time!), and be 'clanned' into a role of 'server/wench/attendant/watev' with the City-State of Allanak. The character would then be expected to play their role, and rp as a server in the Gaj for a reasonable amount of their time online if wanting to keep said job. ...
I love everything about this idea, except for the 'reasonable amount of time' part. It could be fun for people with low playtimes as a thing to do, since it would have a lot of built in interaction. It would also allow PCs in these RP-heaving commoner roles to have a very legitimate reason to hang out in bars, do a lot of interacting with other players, and maybe run tiny bar-based events like cockroach racing or card night.
Staff can already set it so that certain clans get discounts at specific shops. Apping into the role like you would a delf clan and having staff put you into a "server" clan that gets deep discounts in bars seems like it would be already supported by existing code and quite doable.
It wouldn't just have to be Allanak in terms of setup. It could be a "server" clan in general, with the discounts applied to any barkeeper anywhere, to keep it simple. Someone could in theory codedly go from serving at the Gaj to serving somewhere in Tuluk, but also the rule could just be 'don't do this' and it would be pretty easy to enforce.
I've always thought flavor type roles like this would be sweet to have.
Server, Cook, Stablemaster etc.
Would be cool and flavorful.
I do agree with flavor roles, it really is what the Entertainer roles of Kurac in Luir's are for, and also the role of the Atrium, they really were there for flavor. Could easily setup Vennant as a paymaster in the Gaj. Only issue is it does require staff work to do the role call or application process. A GMH should come in and buy out the Gaj and come up with a role for it that the GMH Agent can handle.
Another note on Taverns, I personally think the prices are too high for drinks. Where I'm playing I don't see folks buying drinks. It's a RP construct in most cases, basic Ale should be cheap in all bars to allow for just basic RP drinking.
I do like the idea of shrinking Allanak, Tuluk's shrinkage is AMAZING. My question here would be for everyone, would it be alright if some areas didn't get shrunk down and maps become a bit asymmetrical in places? Lets take the sprawling areas of the Rinth, personally I think it's fitting the way it is. We could have the exits of the Rinth still line up with the same spots in Allanak proper if it was shrunk down, but now it wouldn't be symmetrical, would that be alright? I'm okay with some areas being asymmetrical, as long as it isn't jarring and disorientating (unless its supposed to be).
Quote from: DesertT on February 02, 2023, 10:08:40 PM
I know that I already said my piece, but here's another point:
During role calls for the larger clans (like Byn, AoD, Garrison, Legion, what have you), maybe hire the top two folks.
In the case of the Byn, offer one the role of the Sergeant and the other the role of a Senior Mercenary or First Trooper, someone who is literally in the wings, waiting to lead their own unit.
This way, when a leader dies or is killed, whatever, there is an IMMEDIATE replacement available instead of numerous players waiting around for a month or so for new leadership to arrive.
That is a detriment to any clan like the Byn (imho) whose subordinates count on said leader to provide fun RP experiences like contracts, patrols, escorts, combative training, and things like that.
Yes, they can still RP on their own, but we've seen how well that's worked a few times.
This is a great idea. I've seen plots grind to a halt so many times because one key figure dies, and everything stands still until that PC is replaced and finds their footing. Rolecalls don't pop up as soon as someone dies (I don't see this changing, the news of the death should spread ICly), they're open for a week or so, the new PC takes some time to get started - that's easily a month or so. Often, the clan empties out because nobody wants to stick around, waiting for a new leader. Hiring a second in command for empty clans that steps up when the first dies would fix this, as long as the second in command is replaced. The replacement could be done ICly or through another role call.
Quote from: JustAnotherGuy on February 03, 2023, 11:18:00 AM
Another note on Taverns, I personally think the prices are too high for drinks. Where I'm playing I don't see folks buying drinks. It's a RP construct in most cases, basic Ale should be cheap in all bars to allow for just basic RP drinking.
God yes. Have cheap <10 coin booze in all bars that aren't actively trying to keep out the rift raft.
Quote from: Dune Bunny on February 02, 2023, 08:27:24 PM
My specific idea was a server role in the Gaj. The character in question would app for the role (or it could be automated in time!), and be 'clanned' into a role of 'server/wench/attendant/watev' with the City-State of Allanak. The character would then be expected to play their role, and rp as a server in the Gaj for a reasonable amount of their time online if wanting to keep said job.
This could lead to several different roles around the city-states, maybe even roles in smaller towns as well.
I ADORE this idea, and I'm super for the others too. Coded and/or supported roles that are city centric and RP heavy would be a great way to encourage people to spend more time in the cities, and they'd be perfect for disseminating rumours in a more natural way, creating plots, encouraging active networks between players, making the cities feel more active, alive, and dynamic, creating buckets of RP in general... the list goes on, and I think personally I would love to play a character like this.
I don't know how common this feeling is but if there were actual codified roles to fill, I'd be so much happier to play mundane insignificant characters, and characters inside the cities. I know a lot of players want there to be less magick and more mundanity, and obviously, given the nature of this thread, more people playing inside the cities, so it's killing two huge birds with one stone.
In certain cities or establishments you could have people who are codedly members of specific clans, like GMH's or MMH's, but of course you could also have more general or independent roles too. Servers/tavernkeepers specifically could have a stock to sell and have to cook food, maybe they're even tasked with paying/hiring hunters and grebbers to collect ingredients, and I know staff are all for any role or playstyle that encourages cooperation and dependency between different players.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on February 03, 2023, 11:56:08 AM
Quote from: JustAnotherGuy on February 03, 2023, 11:18:00 AM
Another note on Taverns, I personally think the prices are too high for drinks. Where I'm playing I don't see folks buying drinks. It's a RP construct in most cases, basic Ale should be cheap in all bars to allow for just basic RP drinking.
God yes. Have cheap <10 coin booze in all bars that aren't actively trying to keep out the rift raft.
Agreed as well, also think food needs a look at. I can go greb for a whole day and make let's say 50 coins, have to pay for my mount so that's minus 20, then get hungry and eat a scrab steak, 30 coins. I've broke even.
I loathe to post since I don't even play, but if you want exit interview material, I'll give my two cents.
I feel a lot of talk and rules seem to be around killing or not killing. This is a binary problem that plagues this game. Staff and players in power positions seem to have more grey, or maybe no rules regarding anything short of killing. Remove all limbs so a character is essentially dead? Fine. Complete disfiguredment? Cool. I get that the game's harshness is appealing to some, many no doubt of the players that still play it, but if you want an honest exit interview you need to talk to the people who don't.
I think any permeant altering action should have rules similar to pking, because losing a char vs losing an aspect of a character can be very much the same thing. If your concept for the character is a hot courtesan and torture porn loving templar with full staff support carves up their face cause they love ruining players days (and my experience is these players absolutely exists) and the whole experience is met with gleeful smiles about how metal it is and then for some weird reason that player doesn't want to play any more (It's a mystery), than thats a problem for retention.
What I find particularly troubling about this discussion is two things. First, how much of a broken record it is. A lot of times people bring up these sorts of problems that stem from more or less the same roots. The rules allow for just too much grey and wiggle room and since staff have a pretty hard no retcon policy, the tie always goes toward the one doing the stuff. Considering how long people can spend building up stuff this can be positively crushing.
The second thing is the lack of nuance between killing and literally anything less. I saw just I think one person mentioning a crushed hand. Now you could say that most things done to a pc is merely cosmetic, but that's only if the staff decides it is and they can change their mind there on a bloody wim. Oh missing a hand? Well it really doesn't make sense for you to be able to do this or that activity. If I'm wrong I would love to see the staff policy that states otherwise and what recompensation occurs for a player when it is violated, and it better be more than you get a free noble role. No one wants that when the thing they built up from nothing is snatched from them. Once again, you might not like my words, after all the people readaing this are the people who still play the game as is. But if you really care about bringing people back into roles, you'll try to keep an opened mind.
Finally I think that the fact things are final due to no retcon, means that all actions that affect players in a permenant manner should have the breaks put on them where ever possible. If a templar kills or maims a char or takes something away they cannot get back abruptly when they absolutely do not have to (ie no reason imprisonment leading up to a sentence shoudn't have worked) than that templar should not be in that role and actions should be taken. This is because characters are on a wide range of time zones and some would but cannot act. The rules certainly do say you are in violation if you say, attack the salarr post when you know all the defending players are offline. Well then how the hell come templars are allowed to do it. Because they are and they do.
Finally I find the wishy washy responses to be kind of troubling.
If I were personally to take a hard look at returning to the game and cities, I would want to know what the ooc rules were and the consequences for both players and staff and I even wonder if there shouldn't be a mediator position created between players and staff of someone who is both trusted, well known and not on staff cause if I'm frank I don't trust staff to police themselves and I think I'm not even close to alone on that.
Edit: I grant some things require to be done quickly, IE murder and subterfudge, but that's not what we're talking about. I'm talking about times that a templar does have a choice and chooses not to exercise it. Also even in murder it would be generally considered questionable if someone played with timezones to make it easier to accomplish. (IE can't do it while This person is online lololol, they'd stop me).
Anyway, my two cents. I probably won't read this for replies because arm has a very long tradition of tearing down anyone not toing the party line.
Quote from: Supified on February 03, 2023, 12:27:52 PM
I think any permeant altering action should have rules similar to pking, because losing a char vs losing an aspect of a character can be very much the same thing.
So, you said you weren't reading the replies, but to clarify for anyone else... it does? Like, you need consent to disfigure or dismember. OOC consent. Like, not only do you need to request OOC consent to do a torture scene, you also need to request separate OOC consent if you want to disfigure or dismember someone in any permanent fashion, and if they say no, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, you just have to not disfigure them. This applies for everyone, including templars.
Maybe you stopped playing before this was implemented? I'm not even sure if there was ever a time that wasn't in place. The rules are definitely not grey on that matter, they're very black and white. If you violate this somehow (which is essentially impossible to do under any circumstance but essentially one, since staff or the player in question need to directly implement the disfigurement themselves) the punishment is very harsh, up to forced storage and beyond if I'm not mistaken.
I hope the large reaction to this thread will show staff that some poking about in cities is needed for the well-being of the game.
Quote from: Mellifera on February 03, 2023, 01:41:49 PM
Maybe you stopped playing before this was implemented? I'm not even sure if there was ever a time that wasn't in place. T
There was a time, and I remember when and why it was implemented.
Quote from: DesertT on February 02, 2023, 10:08:40 PM
I know that I already said my piece, but here's another point:
During role calls for the larger clans (like Byn, AoD, Garrison, Legion, what have you), maybe hire the top two folks.
In the case of the Byn, offer one the role of the Sergeant and the other the role of a Senior Mercenary or First Trooper, someone who is literally in the wings, waiting to lead their own unit.
This way, when a leader dies or is killed, whatever, there is an IMMEDIATE replacement available instead of numerous players waiting around for a month or so for new leadership to arrive.
That is a detriment to any clan like the Byn (imho) whose subordinates count on said leader to provide fun RP experiences like contracts, patrols, escorts, combative training, and things like that.
Yes, they can still RP on their own, but we've seen how well that's worked a few times.
Yo do this. Maybe even *gasp* connect the players and let them chat a bit about the interactions/etc. Templars could come in with slightly skill-boosted aides who help them! Byn Sarges can have a First Trooper they have some sort of story/past with! The former wouldn't be a replacement character but you'd get to skip that first month of being a Templar/Noble where you're like 'do i hire this random idiot I just met or keep going without an aide'?
Then let them hire at least one more person once they get IC so it doesn't prejudice against the population that *want* to be Aides but have extant characters.
I was a city player, through and through. I made occasional deviations from this for the sake of whatever whims I had at character creation time, but for the most part, nothing beats the intrigue and danger of a mostly player-run minefield of decisions to make. Inside the cities is where the skill-grind matters a bit less, and character goals mattered more. You are forced into interactive scenes of alliance and forced to accept that some decisions and actions make enemies. You prepared for it. You tried to maneuver around or within that space. And sometimes, you got outmaneuvered and were swept up in a current that you're -not- in control of.
The idea of control over the character is the driving force behind most complaints of death, pvp, and interaction. '-I- just want to make beautiful scenes, but everyone else just wants to take my character away.' I'd assert that this control over characters and their plots is the main element behind a migration away from the political atmosphere that is fraught with danger. Danger is not desirable in a control-oriented atmosphere. The extensive supposition of longevity is that it enables stories to come alive, so instead we focus on evasion of danger. This is the main reason that I believe the large cities suffer; they have extensive hierarchies that can take your controlled environment and take that control away from you. Being 'swept up' is only fun if it doesn't cost us anything. This is the symptom of the character-oriented view of story development rather than the world-view, which makes sense, but deprives the game of players willing to lose control, willing to gamble, and willing to accept that endless character plots of vengeance, struggle, and lofty goals come from a world of misfortune, not predictability. I realize that will not sit right on first inspection, and is often hard to handle in the heat of the moment.
As far as templars in the city, I have to ask: Do we consider templars antagonists? Do we consider them paragons? Do we want them to be lawful good characters? I can't vouch for or even read every action taken by a templar, but I do know they're trying to play a templar in their own mind's vision of it. I believe that some templars will be any one of those things we consider at any given point. So I must say that the problem with templars, I think, is not the player, but the lack of regulating IC force ON templars; they only suffer on a staff down level. I believe that the best way for templars to be 'made to act like templars' in a generally accepted sense is for there to be an actual check for them in the game. I believe that documentation needs to be reinforced rather than left behind to emphasize the power of the templar and their scariness: nobles should be able to make or break a templar's career, and nobles should be more invested in the actions of and on the populace. Not because the citizens are their equals, or because they care, but because citizens and the various roles they fill are what give the NOBLES their power in the first place via their assigned duties of the city. Yes, this is a nakki-centric point of view, because that's where I play.
The long tradition of 'favors' between templars and nobles is inherently flawed, because it becomes completely optional on one side, and only one side. I don't have an implementation of how this works. But I do know that playing a noble was often a near-helpless feeling of being casually swept aside.
I believe all of these quality of life improvements did indeed improve quality of life, but only under the circumstances that are not present in the in-city narrative. We've buffed starting skills. We've made the wilds much more predictable. We made storage space plentiful, we made independent-based long-term goals hard coded, we made it so that ultimate character freedom is relatively in-grasp outside the city, but not within. I've long been a proponent of cutting or hedging some of those indie-boons, but the overwhelming majority see that as a negative, so I will just say that you need to return the balance to what's actually true: The wilds and small outposts are just as efficient at delivering the sheltered safety of civilization now, particularly to any player who's braved them for a decent amount of time across however many characters. If you want to entice people back to the city, you can't just keep stacking boon over boon in each place to make them all equally desirable. If you want the city to be populated, you need to keep the intrigue/political danger present, but make the wilderness danger much harder to navigate predictably.
In the past, cities weren't more crowded because all the plays in them were just incredible. It's because they genuinely granted the best shot at living long enough and maintaining enough control over scenarios to get a narrative going that was addictive to the player. Because more people were there to try and make their mark, that's where the plots were, and they were very centralized, and thus much more visible. The wilderness should be a vast expanse of opportunity and unpredictable misfortune, and completely SCARY. The side outposts/smaller settlements need their own internal dangers to be made very tangible and completely SCARY.
In a giant desert wasteland, the oasis is where everyone has the best chance to prosper. That includes predators, prey, and all those symbiotic relationships and pests. You gotta make the cities the oasis with all its boons and dangers.
Those are my immediate thoughts on it. They are likely flawed in some places. But I'm trying to look underneath here, instead of just piling on a bunch of happy thoughts and ease-of-use statements that essentially try to block off misfortune. The struggle is the game. Everyone's struggle is the game. Everyone interacting in their struggle is the game. Being subject to other people's struggles is the game.
Quote from: Armaddict on February 03, 2023, 09:03:07 PM
good points
Agreed.
I'm still a newer player, and when I started a few years ago, cities were bustling.
Agreed with a lot of points. And just want to drive them home:
The plots were in the cities.
It was safer in the cities.
It was easier to get food and water in the cities.
There are very few city-based clans when compared to wilderness clans. i only know of one possible clan being revamped currently for the third or fourth time.
There are many new clans with cool stuff outside the cities. More are coming with new things to do. There is a completely new concept about to come to the wilds right now, and every d-elf clan was opened up after being touched up, with a huge world-spanning plot.
There is more to achieve outside the cities.
There are things to hunt and things to improve your combat skills upon, outside of cities, whereas inside cities there are not many things to hunt or improve combat skills on. And much less, if you are not a murderer.
There are not new things to explore inside the cities. There are frequently new things to explore outside of the cities.
Suggestion:
add new stuff to cities.
add new areas to cities to explore.
make food and water really affordable for people that are city classes, and really expensive for outdoor classes.
make new city clans.
make the wilderness more dangerous for individuals.
make the wilderness REALLY FUCKING SCARY at night, forcing people into cities. that'd be thematic anyway.
make water and food outside of cities harder to get, or have a negative malus. worms, diseases, less filling. it's really easy to survive forever on your own in the wilderness. it should not be easy unless you are the mountain man that has hidden away for 20 years learning the ways of the sands.
have more staff-run huge plots that start, continue, and end inside cities.
have stuff-run-plots inside cities appeal to groups that have left. combat. exploration. achieving. social characters are already most likely to be inside cities, and they need people to be social with.
add things to accomplish when players are bored inside the city, that do not require them leaving the city.
see above, then add more stuff that isn't for crafters.
connect the rinth and city in a manner that gives both groups a space to interact with in-game reasons not to fight, break the peace, steal, arrest, etc. suggested this earlier.
do the same with tuluk? tbh i don't know anything about it, it was completely empty every time I've been there, including npc shops. (edit: I haven't been there a lot, maybe three times, but it was completely empty. Not attacking anyone's fav city etc etc so please don't tell me I needed to look harder for people or shops with items or whatever lol)
either the two cities need to be improved SO MUCH BETTER than the small villages or tribal tents or outposts or camps outside that people are clambering to get in. or the rest of the places people are at, outside of the two cities, need to be way harder to live and survive in.
i have played a lot of wilderness people and it is so much easier to make money if you're not a crafter. d-elf camps are displays of wealth that templars and nobles don't have. the outpost was beginning to look like a castle last time i saw it, half an RL year ago and i bet it's cooler now. luir's has cheaper pricing for food and drink, armor, weapons. spice is legal and cheap. red storm is more affordable, too, and they don't have templars walking around stepping on criminal types, and it's like 25 rooms away from Allanak (I find this ironic because when I started Red Storm was the place where you'd go and maybe see two people in a week, but have great RP with two people, whereas Allanak was full as at any given time). there are just way better places to be for almost every character, if that character is thinking about themselves, and able to leave a city.
it's way too easy mode out there. the only reason besides PK anyone really dies outside is because they're new, get bored, or become careless, excepting the random freak occurrences with like 7 aggro npcs jumping you diagonally.
tl;dr stuff outside is cooler and gets more attention, add more stuff in cities to make them safer, more affordable, and more palatable than living outside in the sands of an armageddon world with dangerous monsters.
Quote from: Armaddict on February 03, 2023, 09:03:07 PM
nobles should be able to make or break a templar's career,
I know this is a suggestions thread, not some sort of debate, and you made some good points imo otherwise, but I have to say I think this fatally misunderstands the place of Templars in Nakki society (Nakki since you said that's what you were talking about). They are given the direct power of the immortal, terrifying sorcerer-dragon-god-king which the unending fear of is what the entire society and structure of the city is built around, it makes zero sense for mundane nobles to have influence over their careers as some central controlling factor. Templars are Teks main way of controlling his city, and he gives them (potentially, if they reach red and black) the most senior positions in his society. Templars are the ones who enforce his laws. Inquisitors execute nobility, not the other way around. I would advocate for closing the templar role entirely and permanently before giving nobles the ability to control them.
You also said that templars should have some check for them in game to make sure they're playing well, and they do! Templars are beholden to staff NPC's (in the form of more senior templars) more than any other role, they have to check in with them constantly, and are constantly receiving criticism, praise, punishment, or reward from them, at least in modern arm. If a templar is playing badly they WILL be told, and they WILL suffer for it, as will their career.
Edit: To clarify as well, with all that said, nobles already can have quite some influence on a blue robe templar's career if they really try. Playable templars and playable mobles are relative equals in Allanaki society, with nuance depending on the specific noble or templar in question, and what area of influence we're discussing. I just strongly disagree that this should be some sort of core duty and power of nobility over the templarate as an institution.
In my opinion, almost nothing. I still mostly have trouble keeping characters alive. At some point they get angry or trapped by some situation, and I cease perfectly careful play. At that point, my pcs have a very short lifespan.
I minimize character skillup time to recover, by playing outside and fairly solo.
The last few pcs I have picked fights with, refused extortion or engaged in consensual pvp with have died at 20-24 days played. This makes me inclined some days to avoid risks until the next character has 30d played. I recognize this is a failing of mine, and not the game. I just want to see new experiential territory.
Quote from: Armaddict on February 03, 2023, 09:03:07 PMThe long tradition of 'favors' between templars and nobles is inherently flawed, because it becomes completely optional on one side, and only one side. I don't have an implementation of how this works. But I do know that playing a noble was often a near-helpless feeling of being casually swept aside.
I believe all of these quality of life improvements did indeed improve quality of life, but only under the circumstances that are not present in the in-city narrative. We've buffed starting skills. We've made the wilds much more predictable. We made storage space plentiful, we made independent-based long-term goals hard coded, we made it so that ultimate character freedom is relatively in-grasp outside the city, but not within. I've long been a proponent of cutting or hedging some of those indie-boons, but the overwhelming majority see that as a negative, so I will just say that you need to return the balance to what's actually true: The wilds and small outposts are just as efficient at delivering the sheltered safety of civilization now, particularly to any player who's braved them for a decent amount of time across however many characters. If you want to entice people back to the city, you can't just keep stacking boon over boon in each place to make them all equally desirable. If you want the city to be populated, you need to keep the intrigue/political danger present, but make the wilderness danger much harder to navigate predictably.
This is a great post and a lot of what I was trying to say. +1
I also get what Mellifera is saying too. Templars are valid and powerful, and they should be treated as such.
Having played a Fale for a real life year in the past few years, there were times I felt completely and totally powerless. But also Fale has no real purpose or collateral other than being "the people's noble" and being there for political intrigue. But, yeah. I really don't think people realize how isolating, challenging the sponsored roles of Noble and Templar are in a lot of ways. It's sad there's not as much appreciation for them as they should be.
It's been years so I think I can say this now, my Fale was actually killed by a Templar and it was a great Game of Thrones type ending. I had requested a store and staff led me down an IG path for "dismissal." I personally, have been killed by a few overly cavalier Templars in my day. One in particular was so pointless, so I do empathize there, but I think people are over generalizing that this is the reason they don't play in cities.
More and more it seems like people just want to "win" Armageddon. I've really enjoyed some of the batshit and cool as cucumber Templars over time. Samos. Elithan. Eunolia. Feliya (sp?). Validos. Lyvren. Nektol. Sahtuk. Etc etc.
Continuing to act like Templars are where all characters go to die is silly. They are arbiters of the two city-states. The two most powerful factions in game. The players that enter these roles are held to a high standard. Are they always S tier? No. But if you can't play in a city because of a thematically corrupt overlord, do you really like Armageddon thematically or do you just need to win in your own power personal fantasy that Arm just happens to be the vessel of?
Quote from: Bebop on February 03, 2023, 10:58:04 PM
... or do you just need to win in your own power personal fantasy that Arm just happens to be the vessel of?
Is it possible that the game could be richer with longer lived characters offering more player lead story? I dont think power fantasies are the only drivers of a wish for character longevity.
Quote from: Halcyon on February 03, 2023, 11:44:31 PM
Quote from: Bebop on February 03, 2023, 10:58:04 PM
... or do you just need to win in your own power personal fantasy that Arm just happens to be the vessel of?
Is it possible that the game could be richer with longer lived characters offering more player lead story? I dont think power fantasies are the only drivers of a wish for character longevity.
I totally get wanting longevity, and less of a grind in the face of a lack of longevity but I also think acting like playing in a city-state is an impossibility because of the hierarchy structure is both odd and incorrect. Templars and an authoritarian hierarchy are thematic to Armageddon. Republics and democratic factions out populating those things are not. People say they want to play Armageddon because of its harsh landscape but seem to also want to reduce Templars to mere city administrators and mediators.
QuoteThey are given the direct power of the immortal, terrifying sorcerer-dragon-god-king which the unending fear of is what the entire society and structure of the city is built around, it makes zero sense for mundane nobles to have influence over their careers as some central controlling factor.
It's old documentation that is no longer on the site, but there was a blurb, paraphrased, that stated: "The templars need the nobility and they know it." It was based off of the idea that the populace doesn't 'like' templar-magick any more than any other magick. Templars command via fear and oppression, but the populace is far more comfortable being governed by the nobility. Essentially, while the Senate itself is a giant front to this end, it does not make templars all-powerful. The current 'What you know in Allanak' blurb reiterates this by telling how Tek himself does not trust his templars or his populace; the nobles manage the people that are needed for the city to function.
Your viewpoint on that matter, I think, is conducive to the problem. Nobility are not a useless appendage that just sit there doing nothing. Some of them will languish in the extravagant lifestyle, certainly; but those nobles involved in their Family business are performing the exact service that is -required- for the city state to function. A templar who is not backed by a noble is no big deal. A templar being condemned by nobility -is- a big deal. So they have to keep this from happening, and that is the entire world of politicking between nobles and templars. This is the entire illusion built specifically by that same templarate. This is already built into the game, into the relationship, and into the workings of the city. It just requires some actual 'unf' so that it's not just a thing that can be casually tossed aside.
I'm not speaking about nobles lording over templars. Nor am I bashing on any templars. I'm talking about simple acknowledgement of that fact, that this is a thing that requires maintenance, and that it's not a nobles+templars team vs populace. It's nobles and templars and populace in a relatively delicate balance. Upsetting the balance results in...ta-dah, empty cities. Not just from a PC standpoint, either. This relationship where each templar is actively garnering support of noble backing is essential to the movement of organic plots and the checks and balances of the behavior of power.
QuoteIs it possible that the game could be richer with longer lived characters offering more player lead story? I dont think power fantasies are the only drivers of a wish for character longevity.
Longevity as a desire has literally been built into the karma system. That's unfortunate in my opinion, but it's there. I'm not saying that longevity is in itself bad, but I will say that avoiding the components of good stories in order to find longevity in hopes of good stories is often a thing, consciously or unconsciously, and while you may enjoy a small part that you've built for that long-lived character, if it comes at the expense of plots that interweave between more players (which inherently draws more risk), and that is extended to a larger scale, then that longevity becomes a detriment rather than a bonus. If you want interaction, you're gonna need plots and things to be involved in. If you want plots, you need proximity and people willing to risk being a redshirt. Without redshirts, no plot -really- has any weight. And without redshirts, no amount of longevity is going to actually be that valuable. It becomes a bunch of people pursuing their own small stories with little consideration for making the world exciting and moving it forward enough for other people to be swept up in with that die-hard dedication that makes addicts of people.
That may sound harsh or judgmental, it really isn't. It's more just an appeal to this thing we have going on where people are simultaneously bored and yet insisting that this is fixed by being as uninvolved with things as possible, or only being involved in things they can control enough to ensure that survival. Of COURSE that doesn't lead to stories. Of COURSE that leads to people going off and doing their own thing, there's no 'cause' to be part of.
Regardless, even though I've responded to those two things, I'm not actually pushing to argue hard over those points. These are just thoughts I have had on the state of the game for quite some time, leading to a sort of malaise as players drifted further and further into their own stories rather than the collective ones. I still believe the cities suffer from suddenly becoming the easiest place to die, or at least the place for the struggles for control over things made them the least desirable to many just because they can just go outside those cities and basically nothing but predictability to contest their control.
The possibilities for changes and improvements and ideas are pretty endless here, but the ones that say 'just make everything easier', or 'just let me make things in my sandbox' are ignoring some of the greater drives of both enjoyment and accomplishment. You gotta have hardships to make the victories worthwhile.
ETA: I apologize for the essays. I do still think about Armageddon quite a bit. These are untargeted ideas, I'm not trying to crap on anyone, since I'm normally thinking of Arm in a black box making pieces fit together. When I explain that, it comes out in long expositions, and I am often unwittingly abrasive.
Quote from: Armaddict on February 04, 2023, 02:41:53 AM
It's old documentation that is no longer on the site, but there was a blurb, paraphrased, that stated: "The templars need the nobility and they know it." It was based off of the idea that the populace doesn't 'like' templar-magick any more than any other magick. Templars command via fear and oppression, but the populace is far more comfortable being governed by the nobility. Essentially, while the Senate itself is a giant front to this end, it does not make templars all-powerful. The current 'What you know in Allanak' blurb reiterates this by telling how Tek himself does not trust his templars or his populace; the nobles manage the people that are needed for the city to function.
Your viewpoint on that matter, I think, is conducive to the problem. Nobility are not a useless appendage that just sit there doing nothing. Some of them will languish in the extravagant lifestyle, certainly; but those nobles involved in their Family business are performing the exact service that is -required- for the city state to function. A templar who is not backed by a noble is no big deal. A templar being condemned by nobility -is- a big deal. So they have to keep this from happening, and that is the entire world of politicking between nobles and templars. This is the entire illusion built specifically by that same templarate. This is already built into the game, into the relationship, and into the workings of the city. It just requires some actual 'unf' so that it's not just a thing that can be casually tossed aside.
I'm not speaking about nobles lording over templars. Nor am I bashing on any templars. I'm talking about simple acknowledgement of that fact, that this is a thing that requires maintenance, and that it's not a nobles+templars team vs populace. It's nobles and templars and populace in a relatively delicate balance. Upsetting the balance results in...ta-dah, empty cities. Not just from a PC standpoint, either. This relationship where each templar is actively garnering support of noble backing is essential to the movement of organic plots and the checks and balances of the behavior of power.
I don't disagree with you entirely, and it was never my opinion that nobles are or should be some useless fluff presence. I think that virtually and when it comes to player nobility, their role is determined by their house, and each of them have a vital part to play in keeping the city functioning at all. It definitely should help a templar to have their support, and damage them to not have it. I tried to mention as much at the end of my post.
What I disagree with is the idea that it should be some expected responsibility of the nobility to keep the templarate, or templar players, in check, or required for templars to seek out their support. In my opinion that is absolutely not conducive to the place templars are supposed to hold in society. No, tektolnes doesn't trust his templars, but he puts them there for a reason, and that reason is to keep his cities populace cowed, reverent, and obedient, and not to be nobles with spells and a funny language.
A blue robe player and a noble player may be equals in the allanaki hierarchy, but that doesn't mean templars and nobles should be playing on the same chess board at all. I think they do and should have very different roles in allanaki society, and very different expectations in regards to how they interact with the city itself. I think nobles should view templars with a certain level of wariness, fear, and distrust, especially when it comes to their magick, and templars should have their priorities, primarily, elsewhere, depending on their ministry. You might disagree with that, and that's valid, but ultimately I think that this lends itself far better to the setting and to the position of templars in allanaki society.
I should absolutely clarify, though, that what I don't mean is 'templars and nobles shouldn't interact'. They should, constantly, if you've ever played a templar or a noble you'll know that they absolutely need to to get their jobs done sometimes, and RP can happen there. They just shouldn't be doing it under the pretence that they're both just totally normal highborn, and especially not under the pretence that templars have to please and placate the nobility because they absolutely require their support. That's probably the best way I can imagine to further damage the image of the templarate thematically, and give them less of a unique role to fill.
I also don't mean that templars are only there to bully and kill people, that's already complained about enough and more of it isn't needed. In allanak, at least, templars have duties that are directed by their ministry, or the ministry they aspire to, and those duties are more often peaceful than they are destructive. They're just not the same jobs nobles have, and they heavily display that once again the highlord is in charge, and these are his servants.
I'm wary of continuing this discussion more so as not spam the thread about attracting people to cities with a debate around what templars should be, so if you want to talk on it further it might be good if a new thread was opened for that.
(Edited things to be a little more coherent a bit after posting)
Anyway, that's a lot of ranting about something that's only getting to be tangentially related to the thread, so here's something a little more directly related:
Though it would be time consuming, and definitely isn't an easy fix, I think staff could attract a lot more people to the cities if there was a focus on opening new city-exclusive clans, especially clans that are very unique thematically or have roles and abilities unlike anything else you can experience in the game. The trend recently has been opening up tribes, and while I love that all these options are becoming available, if you open up a load of cool tribes, people are going to go and play in them, ultimately leaving the cities barren. If you open up cool... guilds, or cults, or institutions, or whatever else is viable within the cities, people will want to play in them and will inevitably return.
Roleplay heavy but coded mundane 'fluff' roles is also one idea that I think would attract me in that direction. That was discussed a lot more further up. To expand on that though, I think if the process to set up and run your own code supported businesses/establishments was an easier and less time consuming process, more people would come to the cities as well, not only to set up their own, but to utilise them and roleplay around them.
Fair enough. To be honest the templar bit was a derail in my original post hoping to put out -something- to address the idea that templars are the worst part of the city. I, myself, have only 2 or 3 'sticky' memories of where I hated what a templar was doing and those didn't even result in my death.
Opening more clans has always been a big deal of mine, so I agree with that, whether it be old noble houses revamped to be able to more fittingly engage in in-city politics/plots (rather than just being another military force to supplement one clan in excursions), or new clans that are specifically designed to engage on that level. But whatever it is, the boons they provide have to be something that is noticeably harder to find elsewhere.
It would seem the crux of the thing could be summed up as opportunity, but not free opportunity. Stamp free opportunity out of the game. Keep things down and dirty, and the more you rise up, the more it shifts into a different kind of danger. I think this is already there...but it needs to feel a bit more...organic? As you climb, you will face adversity. As your enterprise develops into success, there are other barriers of a different nature than when you first built it. I'm not sure how to design that exactly, but it seems to be an underlying issue to the whole thing.
Quote from: Bebop on February 03, 2023, 10:58:04 PM
Continuing to act like Templars are where all characters go to die is silly. They are arbiters of the two city-states. The two most powerful factions in game. The players that enter these roles are held to a high standard. Are they always S tier? No. But if you can't play in a city because of a thematically corrupt overlord, do you really like Armageddon thematically or do you just need to win in your own power personal fantasy that Arm just happens to be the vessel of?
Firstly, people don't 'act like' cities is where you die, cities just are where your characters die. DesertT's post and mine are two examples of players whose characters would have been alive if not for them. I reiterate my point from then:
I have not been killed or even had people try to kill me outside a city in two years. I have had four PCs die to four templars however.Secondly, this thread is here to ask people why they don't play in cities. If dying young, senselessly, and helplessly is a reason, people get to post about that. You are free to consider this fine and just part of the setting's theme, just as everyone is entirely as free not to play in any city because of it.
You can't browbeat or talk people into playing stuff they don't enjoy. 'It's supposed to be that way!' is a a poor argument for bringing people who have given up on cities back to them.
Quote from: Patuk on February 04, 2023, 05:09:18 AM
I have not been killed or even had people try to kill me outside a city in two years. I have had four PCs die to four templars however.
On the other hand, every death I've ever had at the hands of a player has been in the wilderness by a wilderness pc, despite the fact that the vast, vast majority of my playtime has been inside cities.
It's worth considering that experiences here do vary depending on the player.
Adding as an edit that this isn't to say it's not valid for you to say you avoid cities because you've lost characters to templars, it's just interesting that this varies so much for people playing with the same templars in the same cities.
I believe you, but we have a thread asking why cities are empty, not why the wilds are. Somehow those seem to do fine on population.
I tend to believe that the 'chance of PK' is proportional to how much meaningful roleplay there is in the area. If it's dull as hell, people are more likely to take the most drastic measures, just to try and get something going. If they're involved in a bunch of interesting stuff, they're more prone to letting others live because they don't need to milk every scrap of conflict for all it's worth in order to inject some meaning into their PCs. A templar who's bored out of their mind is more prone to doing the most impactful thing they can at every given opportunity, and the most impactful thing a templar can do is execute somebody. By and large, wilderness PCs are less likely to feel stuck because they have so many more options of places to go and things to do whereas city-bound PCs can feel completely stuck and hopeless if there's simply nothing for them to do.
Quote from: Patuk on February 04, 2023, 05:09:18 AM
You can't browbeat or talk people into playing stuff they don't enjoy. 'It's supposed to be that way!' is a a poor argument for bringing people who have given up on cities back to them.
I do not have much more to add to this seemingly-four-person-conversation, but I wanted to reiterate this.
The discussion is "What would entice you to play more in the cities?" and telling people "too bad thats how the game is" is simply not helpful to the conversation. Its not for you to disagree and change someone's mind.
I think we are getting a little off topic. No where is it insinuated you have to play in the city. Folks were just asking how they could interest you in playing in the city.
I personally prefer the outdoors 100% and would live there if not for certain coded requirements of the city.
But, I do see value in the city life as well. Different strokes for different folks as they say.
I wish cities were more alive and had more things to do, more gathering spots, more entertainment, more randomness that the outdoor offers. I have seen some great recommendations in this thread, like random thugs or robbers who go after you at night if you're dicking around the city when you should be in a tavern or your apartment.
Lowered food/drink costs, making taverns and gathering spots more desireable places to hang out. etc etc.
I don't think cities will ever scratch that itch that running around killing critters in the outdoors does, or the pulse racing when you randomly wander across someone and they roll up on you with three of their friends, are they friendly, are they raiders, you're about to find out!
But being in the city definitely has it's uses.
Quote from: Pariah on February 04, 2023, 11:49:49 AM
I don't think cities will ever scratch that itch that running around killing critters in the outdoors does, or the pulse racing when you randomly wander across someone and they roll up on you with three of their friends, are they friendly, are they raiders, you're about to find out!
there's a scene in HBO's Rome where a noblewoman sends her merc off. the mercenary and his crew run up on a different noble in the bazaar being carried on a palanquin; they cut off her jewelry, slice her dress, cut off some hair, generally non-lethal pride attacks. then they run off. people watch in horror, I think a few guards are on the outskirts but obviously they're not going to run up and die for no reason so they hang back.
i want that sort of stuff in the cities, but the binary crimcode makes it really hard to do anything violent and be able to get an emote out. why are guards running up solo to fight people? why do they care? why aren't they just waiting til the violence is over, looting the dead person, then making a vague report about 'some breed' running off to the rinth so they don't have to work?
the ways around crimcode are the least interactive manners of violence, as well. backstab. sap. blowgun. thrown weapons. things that make it harder to have time to emote because they rely on you being hidden and surprising and being effective right away.
i'm not even worried about guards hurting my pcs - they just don't give any time for roleplay.
Quote from: Mellifera on February 04, 2023, 05:19:29 AM
Quote from: Patuk on February 04, 2023, 05:09:18 AM
I have not been killed or even had people try to kill me outside a city in two years. I have had four PCs die to four templars however.
On the other hand, every death I've ever had at the hands of a player has been in the wilderness by a wilderness pc, despite the fact that the vast, vast majority of my playtime has been inside cities.
It's worth considering that experiences here do vary depending on the player.
Adding as an edit that this isn't to say it's not valid for you to say you avoid cities because you've lost characters to templars, it's just interesting that this varies so much for people playing with the same templars in the same cities.
Of all the frustrating deaths I've had, one or two were from wilderness pc's. Ten or more came from powerful leaders and templars.
It might just be a case where deaths by templar feel arbitrary and totally unneccessary. While the delf arrowing me feels like it could have been surmountable?
QuoteIt might just be a case where deaths by templar feel arbitrary and totally avoidable. While the delf arrowing me feels like it could have been surmountable?
This is what I was trying to address with the talk of controlling the scene. Templar deaths, and templar interactions as a whole, are mostly helpless situations where your only -real- defense to have something immediate to offer. Deaths in the city are in closed in spaces. Not always locked door closed in, mind you, but there just isn't a lot of 'hidey space' to go to. While I got pretty good at laying low in the city, it's not exactly a wonderful experience.
Out in the desert, even when you screw up and get into very bad situations, you generally feel like your choices matter as far as survival...even if the choice that sealed you fate has already been made.
We could change things around, but ultimately there's a mentality around permadeath that shifted drastically from an utterly death-infested world where you made attempt after attempt after attempt to break free of the ditches of life-value to be worth enough that people kept you around to what it is today, where every character starts with the intrinsic value of their potential that is exhausting to see unrealized.
I'm not sure if I'm phrasing that well, it's meant to be equal between those two viewpoints. I can say that I, personally, while always trying to keep my character alive, enjoy it far more in a world that's actually cutthroat where I am fighting failure and trying to outmaneuver intelligent adversaries and create intelligent adversaries. I believe people are actually more starved for that content than they realize, as evidenced by ye olde antagonist dogpile that happens reliably.
I don't really care. Armageddon is a game. I play it for fun.
Arbitrary death by templar is not fun.
Quote from: Master Color on February 04, 2023, 07:38:46 PM
I don't really care. Armageddon is a game. I play it for fun.
Arbitrary death by templar is not fun.
Totally agree with you, being Templar'd sucks.
However, that's one of the powers given to you when you play a Templar, life and death.
They won't remove a templars ability to murder you. If you feel that they were too cruel and you tried to escape that fate with begging, bribery or promises (empty or truthful) and they just kill you. Maybe that's worth a player complaint to investigate.
But in my experience with Templars I have always been given some way out of death, sometimes I just spit in their face icly and let it come, but if I wanted to live there was a way.
Quote from: Master Color on February 04, 2023, 07:38:46 PM
I don't really care. Armageddon is a game. I play it for fun.
Arbitrary death by templar is not fun.
Quid pro quo -- what kind of death is fun? Death you expect, or death you can escape from? Driving at a point -- I think people dislike that Templars can basically apartment kill you without any repercussion (Jail). If it was escapable (either perhaps bribing an NPC if you were brought to the jails by crime-code) or you could pick lock your way out and try to escape prison...It would feel less like an inevitability in your interaction with a Templar.
Quote from: Veselka on February 04, 2023, 08:22:32 PM
Quid pro quo -- what kind of death is fun?
While I imagine some people are going to be unhappy with deaths no matter what.... here is my list of "good deaths."
- I had the OOC choice to avoid a dangerous situation, and my character decided to do it any way.
- Defending/avenging/invading for a person/people/cause my character believes is worth the sacrifice.
- I know why I died and it was not a (in my mind) OOC motivation.
- I feel like my character has made an impact on the world and completed at least one major achievement that has the chance of going into the collective memory of players for a while
Quote from: Veselka on February 04, 2023, 08:22:32 PM
Quote from: Master Color on February 04, 2023, 07:38:46 PM
I don't really care. Armageddon is a game. I play it for fun.
Arbitrary death by templar is not fun.
Quid pro quo -- what kind of death is fun? Death you expect, or death you can escape from? Driving at a point -- I think people dislike that Templars can basically apartment kill you without any repercussion (Jail). If it was escapable (either perhaps bribing an NPC if you were brought to the jails by crime-code) or you could pick lock your way out and try to escape prison...It would feel less like an inevitability in your interaction with a Templar.
TBH Apartment kills are lame and annoying too. Right up there with arrow spam while I'm afk. These are all things that beggar poor faith between players.
Quote from: Bebop on February 03, 2023, 11:48:15 PM
Quote from: Halcyon on February 03, 2023, 11:44:31 PM
Quote from: Bebop on February 03, 2023, 10:58:04 PM
... or do you just need to win in your own power personal fantasy that Arm just happens to be the vessel of?
Is it possible that the game could be richer with longer lived characters offering more player lead story? I dont think power fantasies are the only drivers of a wish for character longevity.
I totally get wanting longevity, and less of a grind in the face of a lack of longevity but I also think acting like playing in a city-state is an impossibility because of the hierarchy structure is both odd and incorrect. Templars and an authoritarian hierarchy are thematic to Armageddon. Republics and democratic factions out populating those things are not. People say they want to play Armageddon because of its harsh landscape but seem to also want to reduce Templars to mere city administrators and mediators.
I think everyone likes to play in a harsh lanscape, as long as they are in control of some sort of power. RP ing the weaker chains of power hierarchy is amazing but a good portion of playerbase might skip that.
Hi there. I haven't posted on this forum or played for a very long while, but back when I played good ol' Raymond, the Master Crafter, the entire first half of that character was just breaking shit in the Grind. The Grind is why I don't know if I'll ever come back, and the Grind is part of why the character after I hardly played in the city. There's little to do besides log on, do your crafting stuff, and then hope someone wants to come around and just talk, or roleplay. The things that hurt the RP are:
The giga stealth code yoinking half of your shit, requiring constant paranoia, meaning that even sitting alone at bars you had to be constantly looking around, which make bar-sitting not worth it,
When there were people, it typically meant power-roles kind of taking the time to power-stance on your character without real cause besides 'i can' until you become or are a character wherein you cannot be stanced on, though this is not a bad bullet point; Having antagonists gives the game life, but what happens is that every time a noble or templar character is made, a week before get get ganked by something or someone, they have a period wherein they are the BIG dick of the law and their entire presence is making that known. It's funny, but for some people they'd rather just not deal with it.
Many clans have schedules, and having to coordinate 'oh hey i gotta do some crafting' with 'well i have nothing to do', people are going to hang out with the people they know in the safe places they know, not go to public places where they risk getting ganked. You can only really do that if you aren't really a character of note because there's always twohand maul hide kill doofus or blowdart dingus. The OOC restrictions are a bit antiquated for the day and age in my opinion for this and should be reviewed, considerably.
I always dreamed that if I could get my hands on Armageddon code, I wouldn't have it open all the time, I'd literally run it as a platform like a game of Tabletop where I always introduced little plots and could animate characters to make the world feel alive, even without prompting someone to ahelp or ask for it. Little surprises that didn't necessarily mean anything noteworthy or plot related, but just small things. Rats running down the streets was popular. People in the market talking about rumors, or going, "Hey, aren't you the guy..." I remember the old Rat sucker attacks both being good and bad for different reasons, but those at least gave people a reason to always stay together.
My words are basically meaningless because I haven't played in a long time, but I think people don't play in the cities for not only the reasoned I mentioned but because you don't really need the cities. You can get everything you want not even bothering with them, accomplish most goals without them. The crim-code bugginess and the constant sneak-thiefs lead to worse times playing in them. When people know how to circumvent the system, the system is useless and only serves to punish the ignorant or clumsy, and the punishment is just that you no longer get to play that character as you get mantis-headed, meaning that there's only really good thieves left, and a good thief is never caught or knows the tricks already.
I don't know. I feel a lot of this game hinges on meta-knowledge that is got through playing multiple characters over multiple lifespans, even if people shouldn't be doing that, but the cities are the least-changing, most-static... It has it's benefits, and drawbacks. At least in the wild, there's random spawns and enemies, and a carru can come out of nowhere at any time and charge you off the road, even if you just cleared it a minute ago.
I think stagnancy is a big problem, but I don't want to come across that I even know what I'm talking about. I'm just some old player that probably isn't in-tune with the problems of the current age, so please take the things I say with a grain of salt. I think I tried to play again at the start of last year but I just couldn't get back into it, the Grind just annihilated me. I don't have the time I used to, and it's just there's so many things I'd rather be doing, even though I devoted so much of my time to this game. Maybe I'm just getting older and less patient? Could be it. I still check the forums to try and get an idea...
Nonetheless, there's my two cents. And now I disappear back into the ether.
Another idea for making taverns a more desirable hangout. You're gonna hate it:
Make taverns physically safer with some code tweaks that apply only in tavern locations.
- Backstab always immediately crimflags the aggressor.
- Throwing/shooting into a tavern fails - the object flies in but fails to connect. (Or hits a random NPC lol.)
- The first strike in a melee attack ("kill aide") has halved damage if it lands. (This is the Griefer Club Dorf problem.)
- Increase the odds of theft detection so it's like 15-20% for master thieves.
These aren't jarring; they all admit reasonable IC explanations.
Taverns are still useful for crime; you just have a better shot getting your mark on their way to/from. Getting shanked on their way to get a drink is the kind of risk players will take all day long (it's a thrill, and you feel like you have some control), whereas lingering in a dangerous spot and getting shanked when you looked away from the keyboard for a second just sucks.
I think, if city based clans would eliminate the "Don't leave town" rule, you'd get a shit load more people willing to play them.
While I understand you can just ignore the rule and that's totally okay. Some folks don't want to play the rulebreaker, so they will just avoid those clans to keep their autonomy.
Do away with "babysitter" rules and I think you'll get more folks signing up for clanned roles.
Quote from: Pariah on February 06, 2023, 11:27:48 AM
I think, if city based clans would eliminate the "Don't leave town" rule, you'd get a shit load more people willing to play them.
While I understand you can just ignore the rule and that's totally okay. Some folks don't want to play the rulebreaker, so they will just avoid those clans to keep their autonomy.
Do away with "babysitter" rules and I think you'll get more folks signing up for clanned roles.
If that rule was removed we would see a lot more runners die in the desert outside of contract than we already do.
I believe that "rule" exists because people go out and die alot and rinsing and repeating set up is equally annoying and aggravating to a leader who is dishing out coin and effort to build up an employee. The solution should not be to stop protecting your employees. It should be more things being added to make staying inside worth it and more enjoyable for clanned workers.
If everyone just wants to do outdoor stuff then destroy the city states and let's play only outdoor stuff.
Quote from: Lotion on February 06, 2023, 11:51:28 AM
Quote from: Pariah on February 06, 2023, 11:27:48 AM
I think, if city based clans would eliminate the "Don't leave town" rule, you'd get a shit load more people willing to play them.
While I understand you can just ignore the rule and that's totally okay. Some folks don't want to play the rulebreaker, so they will just avoid those clans to keep their autonomy.
Do away with "babysitter" rules and I think you'll get more folks signing up for clanned roles.
If that rule was removed we would see a lot more runners die in the desert outside of contract than we already do.
I'm still waiting to hear a bad thing. This game is heavily slated towards "You will die." and I'm okay with it.
Quote from: HammerofJericho on February 06, 2023, 11:51:34 AM
I believe that "rule" exists because people go out and die alot and rinsing and repeating set up is equally annoying and aggravating to a leader who is dishing out coin and effort to build up an employee. The solution should not be to stop protecting your employees. It should be more things being added to make staying inside worth it and more enjoyable for clanned workers.
If everyone just wants to do outdoor stuff then destroy the city states and let's play only outdoor stuff.
This is the stuff I can get behind. I don't care "why people want to go outside", the fact is that many people find it more enjoyable out there. Skinning. Riding. Skilling up weapons. Surviving the harsh wasteland.
vs
Sitting at a bar, nobody wants to play card games, and bards can't make a living because its them and one AFK person in the whole room.
Entice people to stay in cities, don't make wilderness worse.
Some clans are already lax on the rules. It depends on your leader. Talk to your leader if you think you're fine to leave the city.
Quote from: zealus on February 06, 2023, 01:13:02 PM
Some clans are already lax on the rules. It depends on your leader. Talk to your leader if you think you're fine to leave the city.
Bribe, or murder your leader! It's the Zalanthan way!
Quote from: Halaster on February 06, 2023, 05:20:58 PM
Quote from: zealus on February 06, 2023, 01:13:02 PM
Some clans are already lax on the rules. It depends on your leader. Talk to your leader if you think you're fine to leave the city.
Bribe, or murder your leader! It's the Zalanthan way!
I suspect this response is at least partially tongue and cheek. But you can't expect either of those to be solutions to suffocating leadership in clans.
It shouldn't be up to players to correct oppressive leaders. Staff need to step in and do something about it.
I'd be tempted to offer that absent leadership is just as debilitating to city clans (mainly the restrictive ones) than are oppressive leaders.
If you can't be around for your subordinates, maybe you should consider a different role.
Restrictive clans NEED leaders who are engaged and providing RP opportunities (in whatever form that might look like).
It's not fair to other players when they are recruited to a clan just to have the leader pop smoke for multiple weeks on end. Nobody likes staring at a sparring dummy and as a new join, there's only so much we can expect most players to entertain themselves.
I would also be okay with taking away the things keeping people inside cities: just make c-elves become d-elf clones as per 'help elf,' have city and desert running, and just very preferable to their area. It makes sense anyway and it's in the help file they're the same race. And keep going with everything else.
Just remove all the Byn or Militia restrictions on leaving cities. And don't restrict anyone to them and just let people come as their characters please or situations dictate - the reason characters stay inside cities should be because the character wants to or it is preferable to.
It's a roleplaying game and if there's not stuff to do, and it's a choice between playing a character restricted to a city or one not, I can see how it's become an easy choice.
So don't make players break in game rules just to find basic roleplay as a player of a roleplaying game, and instead mechanic-wise facilitate finding interaction. I can easily see the argument that it's kinda more important now to let players interact than it is to restrict them for theme. We have more areas and less players; a lot of players are more casual to a degree than they used to be.
It is where the game is going elsewhere it seems already. D-elf tribes kinda got this treatment recently, with restrictions relaxing on where they run.
People should stay in cities because it's safer, there's more money, there's opportunity, there's action, there's cheap food, water, shelter. Not because they have to even if all the other players are outside the area you're confined to. If you wanna go out into the dangerous wild and risk everything with your Byn recruits go ahead. Wanna take your c elf with desert running but no direction finding? Have fun avoiding raptors in a sand storm. Add some more dangers and reasons to stay inside, but losing the restrictions is a pretty solid argument.
Make it so that one clan in the city has actual reasons to care about another clan in the city
The fact that this is not the case is why city play is such shit.
Nobody has any reason to care about each other, and it's tearing me apart, Lisa.
There's only one thing that brings PCs to cities to roleplay, characters that inspire and make you want to play with them. If people aren't playing in cites it's because those characters don't exist there, whether literally or figuratively.
Quote from: Yelinak on February 06, 2023, 09:13:25 PM
Make it so that one clan in the city has actual reasons to care about another clan in the city
The fact that this is not the case is why city play is such shit.
Nobody has any reason to care about each other, and it's tearing me apart, Lisa.
The Room Quote is gold.
I think the idea of built in antagonism between Houses would be welcome.
In Tuluk, it was always thought that Tenneshi and Winrothol were like Montague and Capulet, but it never really played out that way. It would certainly be much cooler if it could (and would).
I feel part of the reason people avoid the cities is the absolute binary arbitraryness of the Crim Code. People would play more to the hilt, if they weren't going to risk being instagibbed by 3 Half Giant Soldiers for playing their character well.
I really think that (except for things like defiling) a Soldier NPC should have to be present in the room for most crimes to trigger crime code.
Yes, there is the vNPC world to take into account. But how many people are passively waying the AoD/LEgions to report crime just because they saw it? I think that Soldier NPCs should represent the vNPC population in their presence, as with them present, the crime will be reported. If not, it should be no crime code, with exceptions made for things like magick / defiling that are appropriate to city defenses.
Quote from: DesertT on February 06, 2023, 08:50:35 PM
I'd be tempted to offer that absent leadership is just as debilitating to city clans (mainly the restrictive ones) than are oppressive leaders.
If you can't be around for your subordinates, maybe you should consider a different role.
Restrictive clans NEED leaders who are engaged and providing RP opportunities (in whatever form that might look like).
It's not fair to other players when they are recruited to a clan just to have the leader pop smoke for multiple weeks on end. Nobody likes staring at a sparring dummy and as a new join, there's only so much we can expect most players to entertain themselves.
I'd be tempted to offer that the same is true for staff onvolvement. The south has been getting oodles of RPT attention. Tuluk.. Hasn't. One reason it doesn't see more play, I think, has got to be how abandoned it's felt ever since getting reopened.
I'd wager there's actually more PCs active in Tuluk than Allanak right now, and these RPTs (which are pushing back previously scheduled ones elsewhere) are some sort of attempt at addressing that imbalance.
I've not kept count. I have talked to more than one former leader in Tuluk, and it seems to be a recurring theme. The current stuff Allanak is up to doesn't even exist in isolation; so far, the past nine months in the city, they've.. Built a road I guess. It really isn't much.
Quote from: Pariah on February 06, 2023, 12:30:26 PM
Quote from: Lotion on February 06, 2023, 11:51:28 AM
Quote from: Pariah on February 06, 2023, 11:27:48 AM
I think, if city based clans would eliminate the "Don't leave town" rule, you'd get a shit load more people willing to play them.
While I understand you can just ignore the rule and that's totally okay. Some folks don't want to play the rulebreaker, so they will just avoid those clans to keep their autonomy.
Do away with "babysitter" rules and I think you'll get more folks signing up for clanned roles.
If that rule was removed we would see a lot more runners die in the desert outside of contract than we already do.
I'm still waiting to hear a bad thing. This game is heavily slated towards "You will die." and I'm okay with it.
Leader PCs think they are at or near their clan caps, and don't hire, but 2-3 minions are actually dead out in the sands and you have no way of knowing. Clan stagnated and dies.
I don't have anything to say that hasn't been said already.
1. Given the amount of power that comes with the role of Templar (and how poorly it is usually wielded) this has become a huge block for me. Literally every unpleasant experience I've had at the hands of another PC that I didn't enjoy gritting my teeth through came at the hands of a Templar (not to say every unpleasant experience from a Templar hasn't been enjoyable). With how easily this one role can ruin characters on a whim, it needs much more stringent standards and monitoring - or be easier to kill. Whether they are easy to kill in reality or not trying to get people to jump in on a plot to assassinate one is rather...difficult. People would rather just leave the city, and I grew wise and learned to do the same thing.
2. The loss of the Den was a huge blow. A bar/restaurant/theater that cuts across social classes in that specific location was wonderful. It was often populated and was built to facilitate all kinds of meetings. There's nothing even remotely as appealing for the general public.
3. Crafting spots in public spaces. This is kind of a no-brainer. Crafters want to RP too, being stuck in a workshop away from everyone else is counter to the aim of facilitating RP.
4. Gicks being allowed in cities. Obviously people like to play gicks. If you don't want to die or be forced to be Gemmed, you can't play in the cities. So, that's kind of a huge problem. While I think just dropping the fear/hate/not allowing them would be weird, there should be ways for gicks to get around it in a fashion that is -sanctioned- by the government of the city-state in question, even if it is hidden/secret/temporary.
5. People need stuff to beat up/rob/shoot arrows into in the city like they do outdoors or people will just keep going outdoors to do it.
Whatever you do, attempting to make cities more attractive to play in is the key - not making the wilderness more punishing. If it suddenly and arbitrarily starts becoming more lethal due to turning the difficulty up to 11, all you'll end up with is irritated wilderness players. They're not going to go to the cities just because the wilds became deadly. I wouldn't. I'd still rather face a rabid pack of kryl than the insufferable headache of the average Allanak Templar.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,53428.msg1006233.html#msg1006233
There are 4 people Staffing Indies, 2 people staffing Tuluk, and 3 people staffing Allanak. I think that says a lot about the current focus.
Hard not to remember that the last RPT that got run for the North wound up accidentally bushwhacking 2+ sponsored roles, either.
Here to provide some insight from the view of someone new. And not just from my point of view, but the few people I've managed to tag along me when I started playing Arm a month and some change ago. So far I've basically had 4 characters. Two wilderness ones and two city ones.
The reason I was drawn to the outside was because it felt like I always had something to do mechanically, or at least a 'purpose' which led to building my character around that. And the fact that I did something in the wilderness ultimately put me on the map for people to grab me in their clan and all that. Mechanics keep people going and create situations that push me to want to roleplay and get to know others.
In the wilderness I'm faced with hardship and discovery (the latter will fade off of course). Mechanically challenging situations leads you to seek out others to get what you need. I got to know the weapons merchants because I wanted a fitting weapon. I discussed and shared tips with other outdoorsy characters. I got to know the local medical peddlers to keep me stocked, etc.
Where as when I play in the city, what should feel like a wider range of choices actually feels more restricted. You can either try to fill in the slot of a crafter in a GMH (there's only so many slots and these guys aren't going to die any time soon. A sore thumb from hammering a chitin plate in the wrong way inside of their cozy crafting halls isn't going to kill them), try your hand at potentially becoming a live-in concubine (Read: Noble's Aide) or become a lone scumbag in the rinth (which feels very lonesome because trying to find people to join together with or interact with doesn't work too well when everyone's hiding.)
I read a suggestion in this thread for support for coded mundane jobs. What I mean by mundane is: bartender/waiter at X, courier for Y, gardener for Z, cleaner for Q, baker for W. Something that mechanically gives a reason for your character to exist in the world there. I agree with this to a degree, especially roles in areas of higher traffic. You're a wench in the Gaj? Well, knowing there might be someone there to talk to would bring Jimmy and Jimbo in. And since they're there, a few others might come in as well. Though I don't believe this would alleviate it too much.
The gist is: mechanics facilitate and create roleplaying situations. If I were to go back to the tavern example, give people a reason to go there past just filling up their Sims-like social bar. Stick around a tavern for X amount of time and you gain a buff for an ingame day or two to your stats. You just detached from the harsh world and regained your motivation.
Ultimately, there need to be some mechanical draws to wanting to be in the city, which would keep people in or even make them want to play city roles. While people will play interesting characters without mechanical draw to them, it's hard to deny that some are less likely to make Jimmy Two-Fingers the Rinthi Scumbag, who is lucky if he gets to talk to one guy once about something before trying to organize crime on his own, when Johny Chalton-Feller gets his pick of the GMH or Indie fun time, with people wanting to keep him alive, fed and happy. Outside you have: combat, food&water (some do) and a lot of resources. And those resources then get funneled into a lonesome crafting hall in the back of an impregnable compound.
Just pitching, again, for Jakhal-and-Raider-like dens of thievery that open up in various city spots. Clanned Guild or Elven clan? They recognize their own kind and maybe leave you alone.
Gives Bynners and City Militia areas to root out corruption and evil. Gives city-folk a reason to be wary about walking around at night. A few scant resources, the occasional pick or pinch of spice making it worthwhile, etc.
Then let them patrol at night, or be able to 'leave' their little temporary den to attack passerby. I am certain staff could fine tune it so not every spamwalking crafter dies, but it adds a little something to cities. Reasons to get your climb skill if its on a rooftop, reasons to be combat-capable for your corresponding Sorceror-King. Gives 'thiefly' people that aren't going to be attacked by them a place to 'hide' temporarily. I can think of many more reasons why this could work.
Give my combat-characters a reason to be in the city, outside of "train with the Byn/AoD/Legions for the IN CASE something should happen a year from now".
Quote from: Foulspawn on February 09, 2023, 03:19:54 AM
Here to provide some insight from the view of someone new. And not just from my point of view, but the few people I've managed to tag along me when I started playing Arm a month and some change ago. So far I've basically had 4 characters. Two wilderness ones and two city ones.
The reason I was drawn to the outside was because it felt like I always had something to do mechanically, or at least a 'purpose' which led to building my character around that. And the fact that I did something in the wilderness ultimately put me on the map for people to grab me in their clan and all that. Mechanics keep people going and create situations that push me to want to roleplay and get to know others.
In the wilderness I'm faced with hardship and discovery (the latter will fade off of course). Mechanically challenging situations leads you to seek out others to get what you need. I got to know the weapons merchants because I wanted a fitting weapon. I discussed and shared tips with other outdoorsy characters. I got to know the local medical peddlers to keep me stocked, etc.
Where as when I play in the city, what should feel like a wider range of choices actually feels more restricted. You can either try to fill in the slot of a crafter in a GMH (there's only so many slots and these guys aren't going to die any time soon. A sore thumb from hammering a chitin plate in the wrong way inside of their cozy crafting halls isn't going to kill them), try your hand at potentially becoming a live-in concubine (Read: Noble's Aide) or become a lone scumbag in the rinth (which feels very lonesome because trying to find people to join together with or interact with doesn't work too well when everyone's hiding.)
I read a suggestion in this thread for support for coded mundane jobs. What I mean by mundane is: bartender/waiter at X, courier for Y, gardener for Z, cleaner for Q, baker for W. Something that mechanically gives a reason for your character to exist in the world there. I agree with this to a degree, especially roles in areas of higher traffic. You're a wench in the Gaj? Well, knowing there might be someone there to talk to would bring Jimmy and Jimbo in. And since they're there, a few others might come in as well. Though I don't believe this would alleviate it too much.
The gist is: mechanics facilitate and create roleplaying situations. If I were to go back to the tavern example, give people a reason to go there past just filling up their Sims-like social bar. Stick around a tavern for X amount of time and you gain a buff for an ingame day or two to your stats. You just detached from the harsh world and regained your motivation.
Ultimately, there need to be some mechanical draws to wanting to be in the city, which would keep people in or even make them want to play city roles. While people will play interesting characters without mechanical draw to them, it's hard to deny that some are less likely to make Jimmy Two-Fingers the Rinthi Scumbag, who is lucky if he gets to talk to one guy once about something before trying to organize crime on his own, when Johny Chalton-Feller gets his pick of the GMH or Indie fun time, with people wanting to keep him alive, fed and happy. Outside you have: combat, food&water (some do) and a lot of resources. And those resources then get funneled into a lonesome crafting hall in the back of an impregnable compound.
Very well said.
That is also why I love playing outdoor characters. (When I'm not saving Hogwarts from a goblin invasion).
What foulspawn said is pretty accurate from my experience too. City gameplay in general is massively restrictive to who is around player-wise to interact with. As an off-peak player, during the day as a city character all I can really do is interact with the economy which is far from enthralling when item prices seem completely arbitrary. I think it's not too hard to figure out why wilderness characters are so popular when they have freedom and just a larger variety of content to interact with.
I'll kinda reitterate on a previous thing I've said, I still don't think it's particularly healthy for a game that's 10-20 players off-peak and 30-40 players on peak to split it's players between so many different groups, locations and factions. Especially when you want players to rely on and interact with other players without a consistent way to find them.
I think the biggest idea from this thread that really gets me excited is the idea of more "harvestable" and dynamic resources in the city to interact with. Whether those are gang mobs, rotating mobs to steal from, npc apartments that change up. These all sound awesome. Get players to team up against the environment not against each other so much.
Quote from: Kavrick on February 09, 2023, 11:19:04 AM...
I'll kinda reitterate on a previous thing I've said, I still don't think it's particularly healthy for a game that's 10-20 players off-peak and 30-40 players on peak to split it's players between so many different groups, locations and factions. Especially when you want players to rely on and interact with other players without a consistent way to find them.
I've long been on the side of consolidation of the playerbase.
However, Having lived through everything from Kanks, Halflings, Pre-Kryl Grey Forest, old Tuluk, Tuluk closed, re-opened Tuluk and current time frame.
I will say that if it's done incorrectly, it will just cause people to quit playing. We saw it with how Tuluk was just closed suddenly, we dropped from 60ish folks playing to like 20-30ish.
But I do agree that the world is entirely too big for the current playerbase. If there were ways to build "your own thing" similar to mul outpost and how it's doing it's own thing, it would be nice. If there were places to go that offered some safety in the wilds that actually had people or a reason for people to go there, that would be nice.
I'd say the one thing that would be nice is more semi-secure storage ala apartments outside of Allanak/Tuluk. If there were semi civilized outposts (not luirs) that rangers and hunter types could go live and congregate around.
But ultimately this is all pissing in the wind, because we don't know what Staff wants to do theme wise or story wise. Maybe that's where this conversation should start?
Quote from: HammerofJericho on February 09, 2023, 11:37:21 AM
I think the biggest idea from this thread that really gets me excited is the idea of more "harvestable" and dynamic resources in the city to interact with. Whether those are gang mobs, rotating mobs to steal from, npc apartments that change up. These all sound awesome. Get players to team up against the environment not against each other so much.
That would be sweet as hell, but probably a balance nightmare, make em too easy they are just rats, make em too hard you end up with corpses all over the place of crafters who just bumbled into them.
Quote from: HammerofJericho on February 09, 2023, 11:37:21 AM
I think the biggest idea from this thread that really gets me excited is the idea of more "harvestable" and dynamic resources in the city to interact with. Whether those are gang mobs, rotating mobs to steal from, npc apartments that change up. These all sound awesome. Get players to team up against the environment not against each other so much.
I can agree with this pretty heavily. As is at a standard level you get things from the outside and then offload them in cities, which turns cities into a slightly binary experience. Adding more things that you could only find in cities, whether it's some unique fungus that only grows on the walls of the gaj or specific materials that can only be bought in certain shops would be really nice. I mean as a very obvious comparison, anyone who's used wilderness food forage and city food forage will have experienced the disparity there. Not saying that foraging for food in the city should be as good as foraging outside for food, but it would be nice if cities had unique foraging options that you couldn't get in the wilderness. Or at least more, as I imagine some do exist.
Quote from: Kavrick on February 09, 2023, 11:42:39 AM
Quote from: HammerofJericho on February 09, 2023, 11:37:21 AM
I think the biggest idea from this thread that really gets me excited is the idea of more "harvestable" and dynamic resources in the city to interact with. Whether those are gang mobs, rotating mobs to steal from, npc apartments that change up. These all sound awesome. Get players to team up against the environment not against each other so much.
I can agree with this pretty heavily. As is at a standard level you get things from the outside and then offload them in cities, which turns cities into a slightly binary experience. Adding more things that you could only find in cities, whether it's some unique fungus that only grows on the walls of the gaj or specific materials that can only be bought in certain shops would be really nice. I mean as a very obvious comparison, anyone who's used wilderness food forage and city food forage will have experienced the disparity there. Not saying that foraging for food in the city should be as good as foraging outside for food, but it would be nice if cities had unique foraging options that you couldn't get in the wilderness. Or at least more, as I imagine some do exist.
I think the cities should RELY on things from outdoors, like meat, bones, shell etc.
Or there should be shortages in the bars, grocery etc.
Right now these shops just magically re-up all their food and materials.
If there was a centralized gathering point similar to obsidian buyer, but for food and materials and the game took that into account, you could have starvation, you could have shortages of raw materials all stuff that would realistically happen if Allanak were a true city.
If say there was a meat wholesalers, and he bought meat based on need or availability and the price fluctuated, it would be essentially the starts of an in game stock market driven by supply and demand.
Quote from: Pariah on February 09, 2023, 11:41:56 AM
I've long been on the side of consolidation of the playerbase.
However, Having lived through everything from Kanks, Halflings, Pre-Kryl Grey Forest, old Tuluk, Tuluk closed, re-opened Tuluk and current time frame.
I will say that if it's done incorrectly, it will just cause people to quit playing. We saw it with how Tuluk was just closed suddenly, we dropped from 60ish folks playing to like 20-30ish.
But I do agree that the world is entirely too big for the current playerbase. If there were ways to build "your own thing" similar to mul outpost and how it's doing it's own thing, it would be nice. If there were places to go that offered some safety in the wilds that actually had people or a reason for people to go there, that would be nice.
I'd say the one thing that would be nice is more semi-secure storage ala apartments outside of Allanak/Tuluk. If there were semi civilized outposts (not luirs) that rangers and hunter types could go live and congregate around.
To build upon this, I do think both allanak and tuluk should stay, I would never suggest closing them. But a good example is the sheer number of delf tribes with player counts that easily rival and are higher than the counts higher than the great merchant houses individually. This alongside how insular delves are even compared to tribal humans makes the interactions and chances to meet people in cities even lower. Like for example, we have this thread started up and during the conversation taken place here,
another southern tribe has been announced, which, with no hate to Hazel, it sure seems interesting, doesn't seem like a good idea for the situation.
As for settlements, I personally love having my own little personal space to get furniture in and store things in, the fact that Luir's has no apartment options when an entire faction is based around Luir's is a very confusing point of contention for me. I understand that it was destroyed for plot related reasons but from an ooc perspective the lack of alternative is strange to me.
Quote from: Pariah on February 09, 2023, 11:46:38 AM
I think the cities should RELY on things from outdoors, like meat, bones, shell etc.
Or there should be shortages in the bars, grocery etc.
Right now these shops just magically re-up all their food and materials.
If there was a centralized gathering point similar to obsidian buyer, but for food and materials and the game took that into account, you could have starvation, you could have shortages of raw materials all stuff that would realistically happen if Allanak were a true city.
If say there was a meat wholesalers, and he bought meat based on need or availability and the price fluctuated, it would be essentially the starts of an in game stock market driven by supply and demand.
100% I don't think city foraging should be able to replace wilderness foraging. It's hard to say exactly, but some sort of resource that could only be found in the city would be nice. Also the whole thing with the way NPC shops are right now is pretty messy and I don't really know how I would personally fix it.
I love realism but I don't want the game to replicate some things because then playability becomes a concern. Insect meat and root plants sustain Allanak via very controlled means. Flour as well but as seen in history that can get disrupted and affect in game things.
I just think the key factor is "things to do" in the city that don't always require other players.
Players hate getting stole from all the time. Players hate getting gimped when they try in city antagonist roles.
Players hate their apartments getting robbed.
All these things are because of the fact there's no other targets in the city besides when players are the targets. More npc targets means players will work together in pve to hit up those targets and occasionally hit up other players too. It creates a balance though.
Quote from: whengravityfails on February 08, 2023, 05:23:40 AMObviously people like to play gicks. If you don't want to die or be forced to be Gemmed, you can't play in the cities. So, that's kind of a huge problem.
Wait, you CAN though..? You'd just, y'know, have to not get caught doing your thing. Unless you meant 'play' as in be openly magic and cast spells without the threat of immediate death or collaring?
Quote from: CalmThyPalm on February 09, 2023, 12:06:12 PM
Quote from: whengravityfails on February 08, 2023, 05:23:40 AMObviously people like to play gicks. If you don't want to die or be forced to be Gemmed, you can't play in the cities. So, that's kind of a huge problem.
Wait, you CAN though..? You'd just, y'know, have to not get caught doing your thing. Unless you meant 'play' as in be openly magic and cast spells without the threat of immediate death or collaring?
Almost every single one of my gicks plays in a city, and I think I've only been caught once.
All I'll say is be careful and remember you can dispel your spells, most of them anyways.
Saw the recommendation about creating potential events that incentivize playing inside of the city and I couldn't agree with it more.
A few examples off the top of my head:
Spawn 'troublemaker' NPCs in the city and have a board in the AoD's place that gets updated with them. Have them range in difficulty, but basically be like "A man of X description has committed X, Y, Z crime. He's been seen on Q street. Go execute him." And bringing either him subdued or his body to a bounty collector there would reward a certain amount of coins. If these are made difficult enough, you could force players to actually coordinate instead of 1vs1'ing them.
Have NPCs in the Rinth taverns talk about 'high value targets'. "X was seen around with heavy pockets on Y street. If I were better at it, I'd go lighten their load, heh."
Spawn a small camp of scumbags outside in X and mark it on a board for the Bynners.
Mechanics like this give you a reason and a 'job to do'. You then can detach and socialize instead of being half-n-half all the time. It also brings the city to life a lot more when you see other stuff happening around (X gets nabbed by the Arm, you spot Y's pockets being taken, you see the Bynners mobilize, etc)
Enemies in Cities:
So, the issue I see with this is - The game either accidentally or through some wonky code, starts duplicating these NPC's to a degree that they're just walking around, murdering other NPC's and/or PC's who are caught off-guard. A single hawk getting into Allanak is issue enough - Because it leaves behind half a dozen dead, as it is. Imagine if there were aggressive NPC's wandering around in the city. While Allanak is very rough and tumble, it's not a lawless playground for murderers. It was a bit before my time playing but I'm pretty sure the phrase "roaming Gith Death Squads" were a very big horror, at one point.
Camps of Enemies:
Making a camp of hostile NPC's would mean they'd probably all instantly walk into a room and then all fucking Hell breaks loose. Having been privy to encounters were 15~20 PC's were in a room and a hoard of NPC's entered all at once and attacked all at once, even with an incredible amount of skill - You could easily see PC's just drop instantly. If you were on the receiving end of that, not only would you be incredibly angry and frustrated - There would be no significant reason for these mobs. Organizations, like the Byn, do not need to be given automated missions to get killed on. Their primary goal is to help facilitate larger plots planned by other organizations.
Personally, I think certain GMH need to have very limited PC Hunters rolls, if any at all. The playerbase is not large enough, in my opinion, to support trying to each have their own elite unit of hunters in Kadius, Salarr, and Kurac - Then spread them out across compounds in Allanak, Tuluk, and Luirs. No offense but Kadius, for example, doesn't need PC hunters. There's just no viable reason for it, other than to give their merchant-type players more people to interact with. That's a job that is handled by their virtual hunter population.
It feels like the game is growing even larger than it was ten years ago - But the population is half of what it once was and isn't likely to see some great resurgence of players, equaling to what it was in circa 2010.
This thread:
1. Stealing from people in the city is too hard so why would I play a thief?
2. I keep getting stolen from in the city so why would I want to play there?
Quote from: Kavrick on February 09, 2023, 11:52:02 AM
Quote from: Pariah on February 09, 2023, 11:41:56 AM
I've long been on the side of consolidation of the playerbase.
However, Having lived through everything from Kanks, Halflings, Pre-Kryl Grey Forest, old Tuluk, Tuluk closed, re-opened Tuluk and current time frame.
I will say that if it's done incorrectly, it will just cause people to quit playing. We saw it with how Tuluk was just closed suddenly, we dropped from 60ish folks playing to like 20-30ish.
But I do agree that the world is entirely too big for the current playerbase. If there were ways to build "your own thing" similar to mul outpost and how it's doing it's own thing, it would be nice. If there were places to go that offered some safety in the wilds that actually had people or a reason for people to go there, that would be nice.
I'd say the one thing that would be nice is more semi-secure storage ala apartments outside of Allanak/Tuluk. If there were semi civilized outposts (not luirs) that rangers and hunter types could go live and congregate around.
To build upon this, I do think both allanak and tuluk should stay, I would never suggest closing them. But a good example is the sheer number of delf tribes with player counts that easily rival and are higher than the counts higher than the great merchant houses individually. This alongside how insular delves are even compared to tribal humans makes the interactions and chances to meet people in cities even lower. Like for example, we have this thread started up and during the conversation taken place here, another southern tribe has been announced, which, with no hate to Hazel, it sure seems interesting, doesn't seem like a good idea for the situation.
As for settlements, I personally love having my own little personal space to get furniture in and store things in, the fact that Luir's has no apartment options when an entire faction is based around Luir's is a very confusing point of contention for me. I understand that it was destroyed for plot related reasons but from an ooc perspective the lack of alternative is strange to me.
Quote from: Pariah on February 09, 2023, 11:46:38 AM
I think the cities should RELY on things from outdoors, like meat, bones, shell etc.
Or there should be shortages in the bars, grocery etc.
Right now these shops just magically re-up all their food and materials.
If there was a centralized gathering point similar to obsidian buyer, but for food and materials and the game took that into account, you could have starvation, you could have shortages of raw materials all stuff that would realistically happen if Allanak were a true city.
If say there was a meat wholesalers, and he bought meat based on need or availability and the price fluctuated, it would be essentially the starts of an in game stock market driven by supply and demand.
100% I don't think city foraging should be able to replace wilderness foraging. It's hard to say exactly, but some sort of resource that could only be found in the city would be nice. Also the whole thing with the way NPC shops are right now is pretty messy and I don't really know how I would personally fix it.
You seem to have this really odd misconception about the reasoning behind why the new human tribe is being opened. It has nothing to do with the current city problems, and was brought up/in development since before the updates to cities were being discussed openly on the GDB/Discord. I submitted the idea way back in november, 3+ months ago, and since then it's been relatively under wraps until recently--which is no fault to anyone, it was holiday season and everyone was busy with various other things and rpt's and projects that it wasn't super hyped up or anything.
It hasn't been made to 'solve' any existing problems in the game, it was made because the topic was brought up about expanding on or opening up more human tribe and I took Shabago up on the offer he gave out to everyone: if you want to see something in the game, put in a request.
Regardless, opening up this new tribe does NOT dilute the player base. They're located in a popular region close to a central hub with helpfile documentation stating that they are not 'insular' in terms of interacting with other people or races in-game.
Quote from: HazelHomewrecker on February 09, 2023, 07:30:19 PM
You seem to have this really odd misconception about the reasoning behind why the new human tribe is being opened. It has nothing to do with the current city problems, and was brought up/in development since before the updates to cities were being discussed openly on the GDB/Discord. I submitted the idea way back in november, 3+ months ago, and since then it's been relatively under wraps until recently--which is no fault to anyone, it was holiday season and everyone was busy with various other things and rpt's and projects that it wasn't super hyped up or anything.
It hasn't been made to 'solve' any existing problems in the game, it was made because the topic was brought up about expanding on or opening up more human tribe and I took Shabago up on the offer he gave out to everyone: if you want to see something in the game, put in a request. Regardless, opening up this new tribe does NOT dilute the player base. They're located in a popular region close to a central hub with helpfile documentation stating that they are not 'insular' in terms of interacting with other people or races in-game.
That wasn't my assumption, it was more strange timing and was more meant to be more of an off-comment. As I did say, delf tribes imo are worse for interaction due to the insular nature and normal human tribes tend to be actually quite social so I don't have an issue with it.
Quote from: Kavrick on February 09, 2023, 07:43:30 PM
Quote from: HazelHomewrecker on February 09, 2023, 07:30:19 PM
You seem to have this really odd misconception about the reasoning behind why the new human tribe is being opened. It has nothing to do with the current city problems, and was brought up/in development since before the updates to cities were being discussed openly on the GDB/Discord. I submitted the idea way back in november, 3+ months ago, and since then it's been relatively under wraps until recently--which is no fault to anyone, it was holiday season and everyone was busy with various other things and rpt's and projects that it wasn't super hyped up or anything.
It hasn't been made to 'solve' any existing problems in the game, it was made because the topic was brought up about expanding on or opening up more human tribe and I took Shabago up on the offer he gave out to everyone: if you want to see something in the game, put in a request. Regardless, opening up this new tribe does NOT dilute the player base. They're located in a popular region close to a central hub with helpfile documentation stating that they are not 'insular' in terms of interacting with other people or races in-game.
That wasn't my assumption, it was more strange timing and was more meant to be more of an off-comment. As I did say, delf tribes imo are worse for interaction due to the insular nature and normal human tribes tend to be actually quite social so I don't have an issue with it.
If that wasn't your intention, then I apologize for interpreting it that way. I am quick to defend myself.
Quote from: HazelHomewrecker on February 09, 2023, 07:57:12 PM
If that wasn't your intention, then I apologize for interpreting it that way. I am quick to defend myself.
It's all good! As long as people are willing to talk out misunderstandings, there's no issue.
Quote from: Pariah on February 09, 2023, 12:12:30 PM
Quote from: CalmThyPalm on February 09, 2023, 12:06:12 PM
Quote from: whengravityfails on February 08, 2023, 05:23:40 AMObviously people like to play gicks. If you don't want to die or be forced to be Gemmed, you can't play in the cities. So, that's kind of a huge problem.
Wait, you CAN though..? You'd just, y'know, have to not get caught doing your thing. Unless you meant 'play' as in be openly magic and cast spells without the threat of immediate death or collaring?
Almost every single one of my gicks plays in a city, and I think I've only been caught once.
All I'll say is be careful and remember you can dispel your spells, most of them anyways.
I know I can dispel my spells, that's not the issue (nor openly casting in a city). Which means this is perhaps not a complaint to be addressed in this thread, if at all.
Part of the problem is that you're not really going to be using magick in the city anyways. There are a couple exceptions , but if you pop in as a generic magicker, your magick will help you with combat, navigation, traversal etc. These are not the things that city bound players can necessarily utilize.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 09, 2023, 03:35:09 PM
Enemies in Cities:
So, the issue I see with this is - The game either accidentally or through some wonky code, starts duplicating these NPC's to a degree that they're just walking around, murdering other NPC's and/or PC's who are caught off-guard. A single hawk getting into Allanak is issue enough - Because it leaves behind half a dozen dead, as it is. Imagine if there were aggressive NPC's wandering around in the city. While Allanak is very rough and tumble, it's not a lawless playground for murderers. It was a bit before my time playing but I'm pretty sure the phrase "roaming Gith Death Squads" were a very big horror, at one point.
Camps of Enemies:
Making a camp of hostile NPC's would mean they'd probably all instantly walk into a room and then all fucking Hell breaks loose. Having been privy to encounters were 15~20 PC's were in a room and a hoard of NPC's entered all at once and attacked all at once, even with an incredible amount of skill - You could easily see PC's just drop instantly. If you were on the receiving end of that, not only would you be incredibly angry and frustrated - There would be no significant reason for these mobs. Organizations, like the Byn, do not need to be given automated missions to get killed on. Their primary goal is to help facilitate larger plots planned by other organizations.
Personally, I think certain GMH need to have very limited PC Hunters rolls, if any at all. The playerbase is not large enough, in my opinion, to support trying to each have their own elite unit of hunters in Kadius, Salarr, and Kurac - Then spread them out across compounds in Allanak, Tuluk, and Luirs. No offense but Kadius, for example, doesn't need PC hunters. There's just no viable reason for it, other than to give their merchant-type players more people to interact with. That's a job that is handled by their virtual hunter population.
It feels like the game is growing even larger than it was ten years ago - But the population is half of what it once was and isn't likely to see some great resurgence of players, equaling to what it was in circa 2010.
They aren't attacking anyone or even aggressive. They'd be the Nervous Man from Mount and Blade, basically. They need to be engaged, not the other way around. Just because they're wanted doesn't mean they're out for wanton blood.
As for the camps, you can go around the issue with a tiered location. A few rooms, each has some NPCs in it that are set to just stick in that room (kind of how guards do at gates) and you'd go in and clear them out. Yes, the Byn facilitate larger plots, but a lot of people aren't around for those larger plots because it's 3 AM for them when these start.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 09, 2023, 03:35:09 PM
Enemies in Cities:
So, the issue I see with this is - The game either accidentally or through some wonky code, starts duplicating these NPC's to a degree that they're just walking around, murdering other NPC's and/or PC's who are caught off-guard. A single hawk getting into Allanak is issue enough - Because it leaves behind half a dozen dead, as it is. Imagine if there were aggressive NPC's wandering around in the city. While Allanak is very rough and tumble, it's not a lawless playground for murderers. It was a bit before my time playing but I'm pretty sure the phrase "roaming Gith Death Squads" were a very big horror, at one point.
Camps of Enemies:
Making a camp of hostile NPC's would mean they'd probably all instantly walk into a room and then all fucking Hell breaks loose. Having been privy to encounters were 15~20 PC's were in a room and a hoard of NPC's entered all at once and attacked all at once, even with an incredible amount of skill - You could easily see PC's just drop instantly. If you were on the receiving end of that, not only would you be incredibly angry and frustrated - There would be no significant reason for these mobs. Organizations, like the Byn, do not need to be given automated missions to get killed on. Their primary goal is to help facilitate larger plots planned by other organizations.
Personally, I think certain GMH need to have very limited PC Hunters rolls, if any at all. The playerbase is not large enough, in my opinion, to support trying to each have their own elite unit of hunters in Kadius, Salarr, and Kurac - Then spread them out across compounds in Allanak, Tuluk, and Luirs. No offense but Kadius, for example, doesn't need PC hunters. There's just no viable reason for it, other than to give their merchant-type players more people to interact with. That's a job that is handled by their virtual hunter population.
It feels like the game is growing even larger than it was ten years ago - But the population is half of what it once was and isn't likely to see some great resurgence of players, equaling to what it was in circa 2010.
Enemies in cities need not be aggressive. You already have thief NPCs. All you'd need to do is set them to occasionally do an emote about them harassing VNPCs, tell AoD to smack them, set a spawner location which could be a suddenly appear 'dungeon'. Essentially, have 7-8 places in Nak that could spawn a 'spawner', have AoD essentially conduct raids, take these out. Despite these enemies not actually being hostile, they'd add a bit of flavour to the world, and if the AoD let them get out of control then staff could potentially have fun with this.
There's this weird concept with immersive MUDs where the thought that more intractability with the world and NPCs will lead to less PC interaction. I've played MUDs where the focus is fighting mobs and there's plenty of roleplay. The point is: people come here to roleplay and more world interaction won't change that. The people that come here to twink and focus on mechanics will do that no matter how much you try to limit their options to.
With that being said: it'd be neat to have plenty of vNPC jobs! Stuff that'd lightly increase related skills and earn you a tiny amount of money. As it stands, if I need another PC to do X, that practically takes up all my time. I might be having a really fun scene but... there's that person I need, scene done and whenever my skills aren't going up, it feels like I'm falling behind. If you're part of a guild, that guild should have some work for you! Byn and AoD should have combat missions, a tiny payout, a bit of skill training. It's not like this isn't already a thing, spider nests need to be actively destroyed, a task that tends to fall on the Byn or AoD, so making it a more active thing would be neat! Besides, no one is saying you have to go at this alone. You can roleplay and have ~fun~ with other players!
'Byn-bro, let us ride out and take out some raiders and make awesome emotes! We can even do a power-handshake afterwards and flex on how cool we were!'
Furthermore, this should extend to all other clans, not just combat clans. There must be some vNPC wanting a specific piece of gear from Salarr, right? Get on it, crafters! Heck. If you want to go further, have it require a random assortment of materials so hunters have a specific thing to look out for so the crafters can make a greatsword... needing three spider legs? What? Anywho! that!
If you want to extend such a system even *further*, have generic clan that would act as associated job people can do even when they're not part of a clan. A street doctor healing the impoverished from pennies.
You inspect the patient and discern they need [ingredient, ingredient, ingredient]. Now those tablets of random ingredients have a use!And heck, let those poor crafters have a moveable workshop. Let them set up a bazaar mat that's incredibly difficult to steal from and can only be set up in the outdoors. Let it act like a workshop. They leave it in their apartment, roll it up in the morning, set it up in the bazaar, and roleplay while actively working on their crafts. Set up the occasional 'yell' so PCs come by and gawk at their awesome stuff.
'How much for this doo-da?'
Quote from: Pariah on February 09, 2023, 12:12:30 PM
Quote from: CalmThyPalm on February 09, 2023, 12:06:12 PM
Quote from: whengravityfails on February 08, 2023, 05:23:40 AMObviously people like to play gicks. If you don't want to die or be forced to be Gemmed, you can't play in the cities. So, that's kind of a huge problem.
Wait, you CAN though..? You'd just, y'know, have to not get caught doing your thing. Unless you meant 'play' as in be openly magic and cast spells without the threat of immediate death or collaring?
Almost every single one of my gicks plays in a city, and I think I've only been caught once.
All I'll say is be careful and remember you can dispel your spells, most of them anyways.
just here to reinforce this attitude instead of the most definitely incorrect "gicks can't play in the city" I've seen a few times in this thread
EDIT: I kept reading and it looks like that wasn't quite the right point that I responded to. It is definitely feasible to just be careful and gick around, though.
Quote from: Ibzie on February 10, 2023, 03:55:25 AM
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 09, 2023, 03:35:09 PM
Enemies in Cities:
So, the issue I see with this is - The game either accidentally or through some wonky code, starts duplicating these NPC's to a degree that they're just walking around, murdering other NPC's and/or PC's who are caught off-guard. A single hawk getting into Allanak is issue enough - Because it leaves behind half a dozen dead, as it is. Imagine if there were aggressive NPC's wandering around in the city. While Allanak is very rough and tumble, it's not a lawless playground for murderers. It was a bit before my time playing but I'm pretty sure the phrase "roaming Gith Death Squads" were a very big horror, at one point.
Camps of Enemies:
Making a camp of hostile NPC's would mean they'd probably all instantly walk into a room and then all fucking Hell breaks loose. Having been privy to encounters were 15~20 PC's were in a room and a hoard of NPC's entered all at once and attacked all at once, even with an incredible amount of skill - You could easily see PC's just drop instantly. If you were on the receiving end of that, not only would you be incredibly angry and frustrated - There would be no significant reason for these mobs. Organizations, like the Byn, do not need to be given automated missions to get killed on. Their primary goal is to help facilitate larger plots planned by other organizations.
Personally, I think certain GMH need to have very limited PC Hunters rolls, if any at all. The playerbase is not large enough, in my opinion, to support trying to each have their own elite unit of hunters in Kadius, Salarr, and Kurac - Then spread them out across compounds in Allanak, Tuluk, and Luirs. No offense but Kadius, for example, doesn't need PC hunters. There's just no viable reason for it, other than to give their merchant-type players more people to interact with. That's a job that is handled by their virtual hunter population.
It feels like the game is growing even larger than it was ten years ago - But the population is half of what it once was and isn't likely to see some great resurgence of players, equaling to what it was in circa 2010.
Enemies in cities need not be aggressive. You already have thief NPCs. All you'd need to do is set them to occasionally do an emote about them harassing VNPCs, tell AoD to smack them, set a spawner location which could be a suddenly appear 'dungeon'. Essentially, have 7-8 places in Nak that could spawn a 'spawner', have AoD essentially conduct raids, take these out. Despite these enemies not actually being hostile, they'd add a bit of flavour to the world, and if the AoD let them get out of control then staff could potentially have fun with this.
There's this weird concept with immersive MUDs where the thought that more intractability with the world and NPCs will lead to less PC interaction. I've played MUDs where the focus is fighting mobs and there's plenty of roleplay. The point is: people come here to roleplay and more world interaction won't change that. The people that come here to twink and focus on mechanics will do that no matter how much you try to limit their options to.
With that being said: it'd be neat to have plenty of vNPC jobs! Stuff that'd lightly increase related skills and earn you a tiny amount of money. As it stands, if I need another PC to do X, that practically takes up all my time. I might be having a really fun scene but... there's that person I need, scene done and whenever my skills aren't going up, it feels like I'm falling behind. If you're part of a guild, that guild should have some work for you! Byn and AoD should have combat missions, a tiny payout, a bit of skill training. It's not like this isn't already a thing, spider nests need to be actively destroyed, a task that tends to fall on the Byn or AoD, so making it a more active thing would be neat! Besides, no one is saying you have to go at this alone. You can roleplay and have ~fun~ with other players!
'Byn-bro, let us ride out and take out some raiders and make awesome emotes! We can even do a power-handshake afterwards and flex on how cool we were!'
Furthermore, this should extend to all other clans, not just combat clans. There must be some vNPC wanting a specific piece of gear from Salarr, right? Get on it, crafters! Heck. If you want to go further, have it require a random assortment of materials so hunters have a specific thing to look out for so the crafters can make a greatsword... needing three spider legs? What? Anywho! that!
If you want to extend such a system even *further*, have generic clan that would act as associated job people can do even when they're not part of a clan. A street doctor healing the impoverished from pennies. You inspect the patient and discern they need [ingredient, ingredient, ingredient]. Now those tablets of random ingredients have a use!
And heck, let those poor crafters have a moveable workshop. Let them set up a bazaar mat that's incredibly difficult to steal from and can only be set up in the outdoors. Let it act like a workshop. They leave it in their apartment, roll it up in the morning, set it up in the bazaar, and roleplay while actively working on their crafts. Set up the occasional 'yell' so PCs come by and gawk at their awesome stuff.
'How much for this doo-da?'
Having things to DO while roleplaying facilitates more and better RP. Agreed. More variety of coded activities to do. In the city is my main solution I think.
As I said in General on Discord the other day, I can only steal that small bag with dyes and a sewing needle so many times.
Also, what's with not being able to see at night in the City? So if you want to be a thief in the night, you have to wait for the PERFECT night. Too windy? Welp, not tonight. Now to wait another 90 minutes to see if the weather's better tomorrow night. Damnit! Too windy again. Another 90 minute wait. OH!!! NO WIND!!! Crap... No Moons Either!! Another 90.
Could we up the visibility fact in the Cities by one notch? So if it's just lightly blowing, you can actually STILL SEE?!?! At least in the room you're in. Maybe not a full room away.
Also, speaking of NPCs, these mobs don't have to be aggressive. As I mentioned before, they could be a Noble moving from Arboretum to the noble quarter, or a GMH agent moving from the Bazaar to their estate. And it doesn't have to be every IC day. Maybe once per IC month, the Nenyuki agent makes a hefty move in broad daylight with a couple of half-giants.
Maybe a Nenyuki agent collects rent from the various apartment building on twice per IC month at certain times, yielding smaller results depending on the quality of the apartments.
Maybe a small gang of 1, 2, or 3 NPCs pops up in one of the alleys in the Commoner's Quarter and they hang-out and shake people down who walk through, but only in the alleys. Then maybe they disperse after an IC day or two, finding a new alley. Or maybe an NPC burglar can be found on the rooftops with a bit of loot.
These don't all have to be aggressive to the point of taking over a portion of the city.
Maybe a drovian gets out of hand in an alley in the Magicker Quarter and summons... something.
Anyway, these are all just ideas to help drive more PvE interactions within the Cities that'll help reduce the amount of PvP forced interactions. The outside has LOADS of PvE opportunities. If we could introduce some of those into the Cities, not necessarily all aggressive either, but just give the cities some additional life outside of the assumed vNPC population and the NPC mul that's dragging rock down the road.
ALSO!!!
What if the Gaj received an update where one side of the wall in the tavern was a crafting table? Or maybe the smoking pits? Either way, if crafters had a place to craft a bit and not get harassed for breaking rock on the bar, that'd be FANTASTIC!!
Oh, and if a penalty were established for those in the smoking pits / crafting area, that would be ideal. It's one thing to have a bunch of people standing around a bar trying to buy drinks; it's quite another to have a bunch of people standing all around you while trying to make an onyx tentacle for your silk-clad aide lover.
I just craft at the gaj all the time.
I've had people say something then I point at the vomit on the floor of the guy pissing on the wall and go, "The pieces of bone is really what's ruining your bar crawl?"
I'm not sure where the supposed rule of you can't craft in bars came from.
Quote from: Pariah on February 11, 2023, 05:04:45 PM
I'm not sure where the supposed rule of you can't craft in bars came from.
Ironically, it came about in a time where taverns were not always full, but there was 'primetime' where everyone was hanging out in taverns and it got spammy. Clan compounds were underused, apartments were much less available, and people wanted the combination of less spam and more clan compound use. It was never a 'rule', just something that people started making a point of talking about.
Quote from: Pariah on February 11, 2023, 05:04:45 PM
I just craft at the gaj all the time.
I've had people say something then I point at the vomit on the floor of the guy pissing on the wall and go, "The pieces of bone is really what's ruining your bar crawl?"
I'm not sure where the supposed rule of you can't craft in bars came from.
My friend got driven away from this game because a staff member decided to pick on her for crafting in a tavern. Made a really big fucking song and dance about it that embarrassed and infuriated her.
Quote from: DesertT on February 11, 2023, 04:28:13 PM
ALSO!!!
What if the Gaj received an update where one side of the wall in the tavern was a crafting table? Or maybe the smoking pits? Either way, if crafters had a place to craft a bit and not get harassed for breaking rock on the bar, that'd be FANTASTIC!!
Oh, and if a penalty were established for those in the smoking pits / crafting area, that would be ideal. It's one thing to have a bunch of people standing around a bar trying to buy drinks; it's quite another to have a bunch of people standing all around you while trying to make an onyx tentacle for your silk-clad aide lover.
Eww..no. Bars are not for crafting. Its actually bad form, chipping shit all over the fucking place. Its like cooking a grilled steak. Just because it doesn't require a fire, should you still cook it like magic?
Quote from: Tailong on February 11, 2023, 05:47:33 PM
Quote from: DesertT on February 11, 2023, 04:28:13 PM
ALSO!!!
What if the Gaj received an update where one side of the wall in the tavern was a crafting table? Or maybe the smoking pits? Either way, if crafters had a place to craft a bit and not get harassed for breaking rock on the bar, that'd be FANTASTIC!!
Oh, and if a penalty were established for those in the smoking pits / crafting area, that would be ideal. It's one thing to have a bunch of people standing around a bar trying to buy drinks; it's quite another to have a bunch of people standing all around you while trying to make an onyx tentacle for your silk-clad aide lover.
Eww..no. Bars are not for crafting. Its actually bad form, chipping shit all over the fucking place. Its like cooking a grilled steak. Just because it doesn't require a fire, should you still cook it like magic?
Yes. If there is a justifiable flame, or maybe a flat hot slate stone. Or shale.
Yes.
Sometimes you gotta make small exceptions for the sake of a positive experience. I'll usually tip the bartender if I make a mess but it's a little counter-constructive to be like "more people should rp in bars" but then also relegate crafters (the people most likely to be in a city) To sit by themselves in a workshop and just silently craft without being able to way. Me moving to a bar to craft is going to add more to the game and the rp scene than me holding up in a room solo crafting.
I'm fine with people getting shitty at crafting in bars if the bar is full or has more than say four PCs in it.
Quote from: Tailong on February 11, 2023, 05:47:33 PM
Quote from: DesertT on February 11, 2023, 04:28:13 PM
ALSO!!!
What if the Gaj received an update where one side of the wall in the tavern was a crafting table? Or maybe the smoking pits? Either way, if crafters had a place to craft a bit and not get harassed for breaking rock on the bar, that'd be FANTASTIC!!
Oh, and if a penalty were established for those in the smoking pits / crafting area, that would be ideal. It's one thing to have a bunch of people standing around a bar trying to buy drinks; it's quite another to have a bunch of people standing all around you while trying to make an onyx tentacle for your silk-clad aide lover.
Eww..no. Bars are not for crafting. Its actually bad form, chipping shit all over the fucking place. Its like cooking a grilled steak. Just because it doesn't require a fire, should you still cook it like magic?
I absolutely will, and have often rped out building a tiny fire for it in the past before there were so many cooking craftables that required a coded fire, but now that there are ones that require a coded fire? Honestly? I don't typically emote about it. But, that said, I'm sort of agreement on the crafting in bars thing. Honestly I don't give a crap if people do it. I'm just... so bored with barp to begin with that you're unlikely to find any of my characters being RPed in a tavern much, crafting or otherwise. I mean, for the first 8 years or so I played? Yeah, you could find me in this or that tavern a fair amount of the time looking to make contacts, wheel and deal, talk, whatever. The last 8 years? Not as much, I know either the contacts will come with time and feel more organic for it or not. There's only so many times you can talk about the same shit with the same people and pretend it's different or meaningful (One of the downsides people don't talk about about people shifting to having the majority having longer lived pcs, they are around forever. Sometimes I'll know one pc with ten of mine and them not be one of the exceptionally long, like multiple rl years lived, pcs, too). No offense, and not meant as a critique in any fashion of anyone's rp. I'd rather be out there finding/creating/exploring things that give meaning, and Waying about it than sitting on a barstool IG.
There's a difference between your used carru leather boots landing in a pool of someone's upchucked raptor nuggets, and splinters of razor-sharp obsidian flying into your face.
And the bartender isn't going to be happy about you using 4-6 feet of his bar to lay out a length of sandcloth to make your fifth djellabah. Not to mention that the bar top probably is coated with sticky stale ale because the bartender is a slob and wipes beer mugs under his armpit.
So no - the taproom of a tavern - unless the mdesc indicates there's a space set aside for it, is not really a good place to craft.
Is it codedly allowed? Yup. Will your character get grief if he does it? Maybe, maybe not. Even the nastiest dives have their own protocol.
Quote from: Hestia on February 11, 2023, 06:49:36 PM
There's a difference between your used carru leather boots landing in a pool of someone's upchucked raptor nuggets, and splinters of razor-sharp obsidian flying into your face.
And the bartender isn't going to be happy about you using 4-6 feet of his bar to lay out a length of sandcloth to make your fifth djellabah. Not to mention that the bar top probably is coated with sticky stale ale because the bartender is a slob and wipes beer mugs under his armpit.
So no - the taproom of a tavern - unless the mdesc indicates there's a space set aside for it, is not really a good place to craft.
Is it codedly allowed? Yup. Will your character get grief if he does it? Maybe, maybe not. Even the nastiest dives have their own protocol.
This is precisely why I suggested maybe setting up "one side of a wall" which could be in the smoke pits area. NOT at the bar. 8)
While I can understand that it's spammy, my take is I'd rather have Joe Crafter there to talk to and interact with.
Now if he's just spam crafting the shit outta his sack of stuff and ignoring the world and not interacting, that's more of a RP thing.
But if he's talking to me, emoting with me or even just emoting he's ignoring me and concentrating on his bone driveshaft for his new 2023 Kadius Kart, I'm totally fine with that too.
Too many people want to segregate away from others and then get surprised there is nobody to play with.
Same problem I see with hemmed witches, if they follow the rules they are off in their temple, by themselves most likely, and then they get bored and store, or they spam cast so much they get staff attention because they think since they can't do it other places there is nothing but the magic part of themselves.
I feel we need to make more allowances for people to get together than ones that tell you to stay apart.
Quote from: Pariah on February 11, 2023, 07:49:49 PM
While I can understand that it's spammy, my take is I'd rather have Joe Crafter there to talk to and interact with.
Now if he's just spam crafting the shit outta his sack of stuff and ignoring the world and not interacting, that's more of a RP thing.
But if he's talking to me, emoting with me or even just emoting he's ignoring me and concentrating on his bone driveshaft for his new 2023 Kadius Kart, I'm totally fine with that too.
Too many people want to segregate away from others and then get surprised there is nobody to play with.
Same problem I see with hemmed witches, if they follow the rules they are off in their temple, by themselves most likely, and then they get bored and store, or they spam cast so much they get staff attention because they think since they can't do it other places there is nothing but the magic part of themselves.
I feel we need to make more allowances for people to get together than ones that tell you to stay apart.
Amen. Seriously, people want realism so much and forget this is a game. I'd rather have people together that try to push "logical" segregation as well.
If it were up to me I'd lift the restrictions on just about anything that limited interactivity. Spar with whoever you want. Go to the bar you want. Go where you want.
If PCs enforce limitations or stigmas on interactions, fine. But have PCs do it. Lift all the arbitrary rules that give people in clans less to do, less places to go, and less people to interact with. Bring them out from behind closed doors, clan compounds, or sitting idle in crafting halls. How's the game benefit from any of that?
Somebody's crafting in the bar? Nobles in the Gaj? Someone chatting up a breed or a gemmer?
Awesome!
Give them shit about it IC if you want. That's interaction. I am pro-interaction.
Another thing, but this is on the players!
Go break some fucking rules, guys. Go trust an elf. Go chill with a halfbreed. Actually go in an apartment with someone or hang out at a bar.
It doesn't have to go perfectly. You don't have to win. Get betrayed. Get looked down on. Stand out. Get caught. Fuck things up. Lose some coin. Make bad decisions. Shit, just make imperfect decisions.
All of the above is way more fucking fun than sitting in your clan compound and only ever doing what you're supposed to, telling other people what they're supposed to.
If you're playing Armageddon, never taking risks and wondering why you're bored, I've got some bad news for you.
"why don't people play in cities?"
Quote from: Tailong on February 11, 2023, 05:47:33 PM
Eww..no. Bars are not for crafting. Its actually bad form, chipping shit all over the fucking place. Its like cooking a grilled steak. Just because it doesn't require a fire, should you still cook it like magic?
Quote from: Hestia on February 11, 2023, 06:49:36 PM
There's a difference between your used carru leather boots landing in a pool of someone's upchucked raptor nuggets, and splinters of razor-sharp obsidian flying into your face.
And the bartender isn't going to be happy about you using 4-6 feet of his bar to lay out a length of sandcloth to make your fifth djellabah. Not to mention that the bar top probably is coated with sticky stale ale because the bartender is a slob and wipes beer mugs under his armpit.
So no - the taproom of a tavern - unless the mdesc indicates there's a space set aside for it, is not really a good place to craft.
Is it codedly allowed? Yup. Will your character get grief if he does it? Maybe, maybe not. Even the nastiest dives have their own protocol.
I have never seen anyone get shit at a tribal fire for any crafting. So like... yeah it makes sense to get ICly annoyed or have IC rules but do we really have to keep crafters out of bars and public in cities? Maybe
all most taverns could just have areas in the main room to do most idle crafts, so there's no in game extra barrier in front of roleplay.
(edited for clarity, grammar, and focus in bold)
Hard disagree on Windstorm's suggestions. Players already break social rules as a rule; everyone thinks of themselves as a snowflake and will carve out whatever exception they want because "it's what my character will do." The virtual world is considered a distressingly small amount of the time. Doc-mandated social stigmas are the only way to begin enforcing such things. If you want to get rid of them, you might as well just throw out docs entirely and revert this to a hack-and-slash free for all where Magick and Karma races are just perks of playing a long time. It'd create a completely asinine setting.
I agree with Bads.
Social conventions MAKE the setting.
Now I do like having a long character arc where my character goes from "he's a filthy breed" to "he's my friend and I'll kill you if you call him a filthy breed."
However, it needs to take time. I've watched over and over as players bring in real world modernity into this fantasy setting where it's entirely inappropriate. Or the whole city, including nobles, rallies around some half-breed rinther girl who got made fun of in the Gaj.
Quote from: Miradus on February 12, 2023, 09:55:30 AM
I agree with Bads.
Social conventions MAKE the setting.
Now I do like having a long character arc where my character goes from "he's a filthy breed" to "he's my friend and I'll kill you if you call him a filthy breed."
However, it needs to take time. I've watched over and over as players bring in real world modernity into this fantasy setting where it's entirely inappropriate. Or the whole city, including nobles, rallies around some half-breed rinther girl who got made fun of in the Gaj.
Well, to be honest, if you start limiting what you can call some races IC just because it has some RL similarity to a racist term, it's not surprising that people bring all their other social justice stances across the ic/ooc barrier.
I sorta wish Arm went back to the do/say anything with consent for the bad bits, but we are a game ran by people, and everyone has an opinion.
So stuff like that will always happen.
Would like to point out that most taverns (Gaj and the Vestric at least) have cooking fires where crafting happens. Red Storm Tavern (I forgot the name), has booths, so there are options. I would personally not appriciate someone yelling at me for crafting at the cooking pits, especially because I do that specifically to be out there and interact as opposed to spamcraft in my apartment and moneyprint.
Idling at the bar is only fun for as long as my netflix backlog lasts, really ;)
A small thing perhaps - but hopefully it'll make a little difference.
In response to the "shouldn't craft at the bar, but don't want to isolate to craft" I've given the Gaj roasting pits a minor upgrade. There is now seating, and the room itself has been given a more "crafter-friendly" atmosphere.
Quote from: Hestia on February 12, 2023, 10:51:56 PM
A small thing perhaps - but hopefully it'll make a little difference.
In response to the "shouldn't craft at the bar, but don't want to isolate to craft" I've given the Gaj roasting pits a minor upgrade. There is now seating, and the room itself has been given a more "crafter-friendly" atmosphere.
Good shit!
Once I stop the goblin threat to Hogwarts, I'll check it out!
Quote from: Hestia on February 12, 2023, 10:51:56 PM
A small thing perhaps - but hopefully it'll make a little difference.
In response to the "shouldn't craft at the bar, but don't want to isolate to craft" I've given the Gaj roasting pits a minor upgrade. There is now seating, and the room itself has been given a more "crafter-friendly" atmosphere.
Good call.
I've always preferred the roasting pits myself. There's a nice, homey shit-fire there and crims can escape up the back way if they see a templar come in the front way.
It's far more appropriate crafting place for indies than sitting at the bar.
Quote from: Miradus on February 13, 2023, 03:41:48 PM
Quote from: Hestia on February 12, 2023, 10:51:56 PM
A small thing perhaps - but hopefully it'll make a little difference.
In response to the "shouldn't craft at the bar, but don't want to isolate to craft" I've given the Gaj roasting pits a minor upgrade. There is now seating, and the room itself has been given a more "crafter-friendly" atmosphere.
Good call.
I've always preferred the roasting pits myself. There's a nice, homey shit-fire there and crims can escape up the back way if they see a templar come in the front way.
It's far more appropriate crafting place for indies than sitting at the bar.
This. I deadass won't craft at a bar. In a tavern at a spot away from the bar where its sufficiently more comfortable for or towardthat end? Absolutely. Glad to see that this went in in the roasting pits. If I ever play a Nakki again (I'm sure I will at some point) I'll definitely check it out and its still a damn sight more appropriate than in the main room of a tavern. Now if only I could still eavesdrop on convos with listen on stalker/adventurer types without giving up my sub for it, lol.
Then can we just have a public crafting hall in both City-States?
can we have a crafting hall that has a sparring pit so there's a reason for pcs to congregate and hang out beyond bar idling
Yes. Please???
Allanak had one of these, and people burnt it down. Can't have shit in the south.
Quote from: Barsook on January 31, 2023, 10:32:50 PM
A tavern closer to the Byn and Merchant Estates in Allanak rather than on the other side of the city. Or shrink Allanak like Tuluk.
Going to expand on my post here. I noticed that most of the clan compounds are all east of the Bazaar and hence why I said (and agreed with others on Discord on this topic) this. There is nothing to really do on the west side expect idle in an empty tavern or look in some of the shops along the roads. It would better if there was a tavern that had a bar and roasting pits with a crafting hall next door. Perhaps some apartments also.
It would be nice to have a tavern plus crafting hall in Tuluk also.
Quote from: Patuk on February 13, 2023, 06:31:11 PM
Allanak had one of these, and people burnt it down. Can't have shit in the south.
Was that the Den? Or FOIC?
Quote from: Barsook on February 13, 2023, 06:35:05 PM
Quote from: Patuk on February 13, 2023, 06:31:11 PM
Allanak had one of these, and people burnt it down. Can't have shit in the south.
Was that the Den? Or FOIC?
Yes.
I have not really played a character that is allowed or is even willing to openly walk around in a city for a long time and that likely won't change.
When you play in the city, there is a high risk you'll eventually lose the political game with someone and have a templar walk up to you and end you regardless of your race/class/skill/bribes etc. This isn't a 'templar' problem or even bad thing because some people do enjoy IC politics, however, I find politics and even clans(that should protect you from politics) somewhat boring even for my mundane character concepts. For clans the restrictions suck, but personally being given everything on a silver platter also makes the game less fun for me.
In short, I really just personally prefer to play indies for the fun and challenge. And again to clarify this is to no fault of a game but due to this preference I tend to play characters that just avoid cities just from the start.
Some things that might get me to interact with cities, or use them as a starting point:
-Apartments are very dangerous and useless for established characters, especially in cities. Apartments are death traps for everyone and they suck ass for storage. If you are inside an apartment you should be able to flee through close/locked doors. Also I am also almost convinced that perhaps apartments should be no hide rooms (but allow sneak).
-There should be more automated services for established, rich citizens of a city such as guards that walk around with you and protect your apartment door while you are inside.
-At night there should be sparring pits in taverns for limits hours during the night, where people can pay to spar each other and others can watch from above. This will help with skill grind and make entertaining shows, the fact they are so visible and limited to over night hours will limit abuse. Crimcode should go off if a murder occurs adding more layers of fun.
Finally, because things can go sour in a city so quickly, its very hard to choose a solely city based character that has no ability to escape outside or go stealth at a moments notice. This is doubly so in Tuluk, because it lacks the utility that comes from being able to run into the rinth. As mentioned all resources are outside, there is no market where you need to pay 1000 coins to enter just to see unique and special wares or an NPCs where you can request some vNPC hunter/grebber go find you resource X at Y price. Therefore, I believe that if you impoved rooftops, sewers and surrounding locations as places where people could start fresh than people would be more invest in playing/interacting in cities.
Onr last sore point includes travel between civilization hubs, I've mentioned before but a player should not require direction sense skill to travel from one civilization hub to another. These should be beaten paths at this point and direction sense should only be required when you step off those paths and decide to explore the wastes. It basically cornholes players into choosing something like stalker or raider that has the ability to travel through storms whenever they want just to search for interaction vs classes that often only have the ability to survive in cities alone. This is also because playing a raider class is easier and more convinient than finding a bynner willing to take you to and fro civilization hubs. Again if the ability to travel between civilization hubs was improved I think it would make people be willing to commit time and character concepts to solely city characters.
I've said this in many threads over the years, but I'll say it again here. Crime code's gotta change.
I'd much rather have Romeo and Juilet style duels(be it blades or words) between house underlings that are 'ignored' (or better yet affect social standing or are bet on) while breeds get their teeth kicked in by Tor, Oash, or Borsail agents for the mighty crime of 'being there when something happened.' Think rough and tumble, but not an active war zone.
Non consensual murder attempts in the city are always going to be stickler, as most tier 3 - 5 players don't want to roll over and die because someone handed 100 'sid to some tier 1 or 2 rinther. I can't bring myself to play crafter oriented classes for this reason. On the other hand, Allanak's current fortress of solitude approach for clanned bodies is pretty damned depressing and unfun. Apartments/hallways should likely be no hide. Cities shouldn't have anti-magick shells either. Again, its a tough balancing act, but force aggressors to have to be clever or take risks without making people invulnerable. In general, though, I hate the rinth
At least for Allanak. Tuluk's its own beast and I haven't been north since it was reopened, so no comment.
Miscreant is borked, borked, borked as a class. For me, no cap, it existing is enough to disincline me from doing city roles with any frequency. Theivery goes from 0% to 100% success rates, there's no counter play besides not being there, and neither are fun.
I will say a little something for all those people talking about Templars indiscriminately murdering PCs. When I played one I had a staff member on me EVERY time I had an adversarial (heck just about any) encounter (I wished up about it 99% of the time but most times eyes were on me beforehand) and even got chastised preemptively for just talking to a PC, let alone doing anything bad to them. Maybe any given player gets a longer or shorter leash, but I've only ever seen 1 templar 'step over the line' and a Red Robe showed up to correct that issue as part of the story. I don't get the vitriol, but hating on Templars is one of the classic rotating threads, so maybe its just in vogue presently.
Give players more agency on how they 'set up' their Templar, if anything, and more active goals to be chasing. These should be leadership roles for the city state faction that's reaching out to struggle with whatever's in need of a good enemy and need to be thus created, equipped, and set upon.
Again, no comment on Tuluki Templars, ignorance is bliss.
Lastly, I'd say for me cities always felt weird because we as players are forced to play a low fantasy, low power game while all the NPCs are playing a power fantasy game where they could fart every and all pcs out existence if they ate a spicy scrab steak. And most of the NPCs doing this are in the cities. That to me presents a fundamental situation I don't really like. That rabbit hole is probably too meta for this thread though.
Quote from: Kryos on February 15, 2023, 10:07:07 PM...Apartments/hallways should likely be no hide...
I love this idea.
As it is, apartments all over the place are sitting completely empty out of fear they're inescapable death traps.
One of the main appeals of cities, I would think, is that PCs can have a home there. But they're just so easy to break into and most on here are utterly terrified of them - myself included.
Quote from: Windstorm on February 15, 2023, 11:17:18 PM
Quote from: Kryos on February 15, 2023, 10:07:07 PM...Apartments/hallways should likely be no hide...
I love this idea.
As it is, apartments all over the place are sitting completely empty out of fear they're inescapable death traps.
One of the main appeals of cities, I would think, is that PCs can have a home there. But they're just so easy to break into and most on here seem to fear them as deathtraps.
+2
Most of my player-on-player deaths have all happened in locked rooms.
I absolutely agree with the sentiment to make apartments feel safer.
As it stands, you're safer finding a save room in the wilderness and leaving all your crap there vs in a locked apartment. It's also pretty idiotic that someone with a high enough hide can just... Go invisible in a tiny room with no furnishings. Like, is this guy hidden under my sleeping mat? Maybe behind a large bag? Hallways should be equally as hard to hide in, as well. It's not like crowds of people are hanging out in the halls or moving in and out of the building in a large enough crowd to warrant someone somehow remaining completely and utterly undetected.
To mellow it out a bit, maybe the fancy gated apartments should be fancy gated and secure, the Gaj should be pretty secure if you pay off the rooftop elves.
Personally I have only used an apartment as a place to log out and a place to store logs, so my experience is limited.
I have never killed in an apartment, and I have never been killed in an apartment.
How much would it help just to make apartments auto unlock from the inside?
>close door w
You close the door.
>open door w
You open the door.
>close door w
You close the door.
>lock door w
You lock the door.
>open door west (with or without a key)
Unbolting the latch, you open the door.
I assume you can use the open command while in combat. If not, make it so and to me, this would end the "deathtrap"iness of apartments as presented in this thread.
Quote from: Kryos on February 15, 2023, 10:07:07 PM
-snip-
I'd love for crimcode to not be a thing at all, but with how binary Arm combat is, and how normalized it is to exploit game mechanics and break the IC/OOC veil, you'd probably get more danger on the streets of Allanak then in the wilderness (if we ignore getting templar'd that is). Getting OHK'd by a dwarf or a half-giant or what have you.
As for the apartments and miscreants, I totally agree. I only ever rented apartments like 4-5 years ago because I was simply too new to realize that they are inevitably going to get entirely sacked within a week. Now, I don't even bother. PC housing is one of the few things cities got going for them.. in theory.
Compounds used to compensate for the lack of safe PC housing, but now there's so many tribes and out-of-city organizations with storerooms and personal storage, it's a thing that
everyone has.
I personally don't think pickpocketing is a HUGE reason why people don't play much in the cities, but I do think it's
part of the reason. Perhaps some sort of OOC 'steal' limit could be implemented. Maybe every 24 hours, you could have only 1-2 successful pickpocket rolls against PCs. A pretty out there and somewhat blunt idea, granted.
My hot take on apartments in the cities:
It used to be VERY difficult to find a lockpick. And once you DID have one, it broke. When you finally had enough skill to break into an apartment, you basically had to have your favorite three picks to use, and you had to be a MASTER assassin to even attempt the highest locks. It was also very difficult to even get to pick making.
Now, pick making is easier to get to, SOMEWHAT easier to start off with, and there is no ability to "police" them as there was before.
Apartments are fine. Clans that deal in their protection just cannot possibly police them like they used to, and non-clanned PCs are able to do whatever they want, without ever being consequenced.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on February 16, 2023, 12:08:37 PM
I have never killed in an apartment, and I have never been killed in an apartment.
How much would it help just to make apartments auto unlock from the inside?
>close door w
You close the door.
>open door w
You open the door.
>close door w
You close the door.
>lock door w
You lock the door.
>open door west (with or without a key)
Unbolting the latch, you open the door.
I assume you can use the open command while in combat. If not, make it so and to me, this would end the "deathtrap"iness of apartments as presented in this thread.
I distinctly remember getting apartment murdered and it went like this.
Backstab to me
unlock door
open door
flee
(in the time it took for those commands to take place, there is a slight delay on open door to flee)
Badguy closes door
Flee happens, you have no where to go!
try again three more times, he just closes the door after I open it and DING mantis head.
I think criminal classes/PCs right now are just kinda a weird thing where they're either completely useless and don't have anything to do or they're godlike invisible creatures of mass murder/theft. I really want criminals to be a more common thing to add that dynamic to the city, but it seems like it's either no fun for the person being subject to the crime or it's no fun for the person doing the crime (crimcode flags, ten guards teleport into your room and drag you off to a cell to afk for x amount of time). I could be wrong but that was kinda my experience with it, it was either all or nothing. I think partially this is due to criminal characters utilizing skills that dont have much counter unless you're playing a specific class and criminals not having much to do that doesn't involve PCs. Someone mentioned the idea of having NPC apartments they could break into and stuff and I think that would be good.
Once upon a time, there was an enormous thriving Byn unit in Allanak. It was huge, with lots of troopers, runners, and, well,
The Byn was just so popular and thriving that they put apartments over the Gaj and gladiator.
As a result, Allanak was thriving, and the Gaj was packed all of the time.
Do you guys know what happened, to end this?
The imms created an RPT complete with psionicists, mekillots, almost all of the newbie Bynners dying — one of the the two players working on forming an indie group out of this large clan quit playing, and it just totally destroyed the clan at the time instead of being some sort of weird "culling" moment.
Don't do stuff like this again, just killing PCs because a clan's too large, and you may not find yourself ever having to wonder how to "rebuild" the population of cities.
^^^ weirdly happened as Nyr was doing a population drive and role calls for Tuluk. HMMMMMM.
The old Kuraci Fist was similarly undone by forced RPTs trying to thin out some extremely skilled combatant PCs for... reasons? To make room for the Garrison, I suppose. I just know staff got upset with us not wanting to hang around a meteorite that drained our hit points by 1/hp every ten seconds just by being in the same room as the thing. We had one small pebble that damn near killed us bringing back to Red Storm, leaving a much bigger deposit behind in a devastated camp that might as well have had a radiation exclusion zone set up around it. Our leaders were explicitly told by staff that we weren't going to get events run anytime soon for failing to take the bait.
Most of the PCs got bumped off in the next couple months via gith wizardry, or stored as their friends got rubbed out.
Players enjoy challenges that they can engage with and overcome with hard work and cooperation. Players do not enjoy being picked on by nigh indestructible opponents, PC or Staff.
You could just do it the Nergal way, and kill off close-knit celf gangs by marching in the mul from the Folley to murder everyone. Somehow I didn't play a celf for years afterward. Really makes you think.
I think the above would fit more into a thread called why being herded into any clan/group sucks in the long term. Not that don't I feel its part of the reason why people are no longer in cities, just that it would be a fun conversation to have in more depth.
Back to cities though, I wasn't originally considering apartment building halls be no hide but I can see that too.
As someone who plays sneaky/combat types I know that the ones who almost always suffer in this game are the social/merchant character who arguably should be safer in cities. However, these types of characters and players have been weeded out from the game since for the longest time money was worthless, merchant houses sold the best stuff so why craft, and finally when players of aides and squishies were being killed left and right most people just shrugged.
The game has also continuously pushed players towards stalkers,raiders and other powerful combos/races with plots, resources and the convenience of being able to look/find more interaction/fun that comes from just having ride/direction sense on demand while making city bound classes/roles the least viable and often in more danger of death thanks to bored sponsored roles that can easily utilize templars murder powers. Even the criminal classes outside of killing squishes or just being annoyances with petty theft are subpar compared to wilderness classes unless you go mage...even more so after the poison and blunt weapon dice changes.
I think in general Cities should just be more Staffed by Staff. Indies / Tribes should be expected to not only make their own fun, but they likely enjoy being left alone moreso than their city counterparts.
There should be more going on in Cities, purely from more Staff presence/interactions/storylines, than out in the wilds. The wilds should be desolate, less animate, and less 'fun' on its own. It should be dangerous and difficult to traverse and not a playground.
I found this equation more or less true in the past -- When you played in a tribe, you felt lucky to get Staff interaction, but at the same time, you made almost all of your own fun with your built in tribe-mates, their loyalty, their 'us against them' sort of mentality was enough to drive you forward. It also helped me hone my Solo RP chops and enjoy it, actually.
It's difficult for many city based roles to operate on their own without Staff assistance, particularly Noble and Templar roles. Left to their own devices, they tend to exhibit behaviors that the playerbase on a whole seems to not enjoy at all. Given direction and purpose, they tend to engage with the playerbase in a more beneficial fashion.
I agree with some of the points brought up in this thread -- that sponsored roles shouldn't just be filling a slot, but there should be plot devices/background stories/plot propoulsion given to the character from day 0. Staff should think of a few things before putting up the role call -- small plot hooks that can get the sponsored role started off with a bang.
Examples:
-T'zai Byn Sergeant. Coordinate with the Southern Templarate team and come up with a Classic Sewer Problem that needs the Byn's attention, and maybe House Jal (NPCs if there aren't any PCs around). Nyr did this with one of my Byn Sergeants in the past, and it was a great hook for a day 1 Sergeant. Dangerous mission. Rally the troops.
-House Oash. A magickal experiment went awry and created a temporal rift in one of the rooms of the Oashi Barracks -- Items keep appearing and disappearing at random, when left on the center table. You need to put together a team (Circle) of Magi to investigate it, and try to keep it under wraps/control before the Templarate finds out, or (at your own risk and discretion) involve the Templarate, that's up to you.
-House Borsail. A new stock of slaves has come to fruition for your inspection and to auction off to the Templarate and other Nobles. Write up the NPCs (sdesc, desc, and brief background) and we (Staff) will take care of building them. Over the course of the next 1-2 RL months, cajole and coerce your colleagues into buying the slaves. If you sell them out, you'll likely be rewarded. Leftovers will need to be sold off at a discount, so do your best to get rid of them at high prices. Low price of 10k, high price of 20k.
-House Kurac. A potential new strain of spice has been discovered in Red Storm by the spice buyer and been put aside. Go investigate in the Warehouse while keeping it under wraps -- if there are loose lips, see about silencing them with coin or by other means. If you obtain the sample of spice, retrieve it and bring it back to Luirs for study.
Simple hooks -- Not necessarily world shaking or too much right out of the gates, but I can't tell you how many times I was just plopped into a leadership role and not given much direction or insight as to past greivances or 'what's going on'. Just 'here's your skill boosts, ready go'.
Creating guidelines for this prior to apping in a new PC would be wonderful.
Quote from: Veselka on February 17, 2023, 12:56:04 PM
I think in general Cities should just be more Staffed by Staff. Indies / Tribes should be expected to not only make their own fun, but they likely enjoy being left alone moreso than their city counterparts.
City players have three staffing teams. Red Storm, Tribals, and Outdoor Player clanns, and Unaffiliated have one between all of them.
Are you saying they should get NO support at all?
Quote from: Veselka on February 17, 2023, 12:56:04 PM
The wilds should be desolate, less animate, and less 'fun' on its own.
Why do you want to take fun things away from other people just so your play-style can get more attention?
Try to keep change suggestions that make what you want more attractive, and not make what other people like less enjoyable.
Quote from: Veselka on February 17, 2023, 12:56:04 PM
I found this equation more or less true in the past -- When you played in a tribe, you felt lucky to get Staff interaction, but at the same time, you made almost all of your own fun with your built in tribe-mates, their loyalty, their 'us against them' sort of mentality was enough to drive you forward. It also helped me hone my Solo RP chops and enjoy it, actually.
So you didn't get attention when you played in tribes, but you think they get too much attention when you aren't?
Us vs. them City Oppertties: GMH v. GMH, MMH v. GMH, Commoner v. Highborn, Noble v. Templar, Southside v. Rinth, Undertuluk v. Topside, Nak v. Tuluk, City v. Wild?
Quote from: Veselka on February 17, 2023, 12:56:04 PM
It's difficult for many city based roles to operate on their own without Staff assistance, particularly Noble and Templar roles. Left to their own devices, they tend to exhibit behaviors that the playerbase on a whole seems to not enjoy at all. Given direction and purpose, they tend to engage with the playerbase in a more beneficial fashion.
I agree with some of the points brought up in this thread -- that sponsored roles shouldn't just be filling a slot, but there should be plot devices/background stories/plot propoulsion given to the character from day 0. Staff should think of a few things before putting up the role call -- small plot hooks that can get the sponsored role started off with a bang.
I've always assumed one of the most important parts of writing a sponsored roll is 1) what do you plan on doing with this role and 2) how do you plan to do it, and a staffer decide to/not to sponsor and back your idea as much as your character concept. I would much rather be pushing my own staff-backed story than playing animated NPC for a staffer's plot-line that I only get snippets of information about from time to time and left directionless when not puppeted or when their goals start working against my own. I think it was earlier in this thread where someone commented that getting a sponsored role with coded and/or virtual power behind it was like being a mini-staffer with a "job" to do to entertain others, and I definitely agree. There are hundreds of plots you can pursue with no or minimal support.
Maybe make it so you can see at night in the city even when the weather is "Gritty sand blows in from the DIRECTION, piling in small dunes."
:P
Quote from: DesertT on February 17, 2023, 09:53:51 PM
Maybe make it so you can see at night in the city even when the weather is "Gritty sand blows in from the DIRECTION, piling in small dunes."
:P
So much this. There are massive walls around Allanak, not being able to move around at night, even with a torch is hell. Also means that whether or not mc crime city elf can do crime at night is rng if there is no storm.
Wish we could have a nice, concise summary of the suggestions so that Staff don't need to read through 9 pages. Half of those being whole different conversations that kind of go off rails.
I'd like to know what ideas from the ones gleamed, Staff considered viable.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 17, 2023, 10:26:27 PM
Wish we could have a nice, concise summary of the suggestions so that Staff don't need to read through 9 pages. Half of those being whole different conversations that kind of go off rails.
I'd like to know what ideas from the ones gleamed, Staff considered viable.
*a wild mansa appears*
Quote from: Kialae on February 17, 2023, 10:46:54 PM
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 17, 2023, 10:26:27 PM
Wish we could have a nice, concise summary of the suggestions so that Staff don't need to read through 9 pages. Half of those being whole different conversations that kind of go off rails.
I'd like to know what ideas from the ones gleamed, Staff considered viable.
*a wild mansa appears*
Lmao, I was gonna say the same shit.
I think some people touched upon this but one major problem the entire game suffers from is how easy it is to just isolate yourself.
This has been a long running problem where the design of the game prevents and discourages interaction between players. Its ironic that apartments are the most dangerous places in the game.
The Tan Maurk used to have an entire green land with water. These was once deamed too much and volcanos few across the known to resolve the problem. However, the problem didn't stop there, barracks are basically the same freaking way. You could enter a barrack and you have, trianing, food, the way and everything you need to play the game without ever leaving.
There have been events like the gith wars that could have been used to force the pah tribes into areas between tuluk, luirs and allanak where they would be more in direct contact with people, cities and travelers. Further making it an ongoing sore point to keep the gith/mantis or whatever at bay using luirs as a meeting hub. Water could have been scarce with the gem destroyed, making them more willing to negotiate with civilized hubs because it would be the last sources of water not controlled by enemy forces. How much more dangerous would have this made travel, instead of it just being snakes and desert storms.
Consolidation didn't have to mean closing clans and tribes, you can really have a good time with just two or three people after all, but instead making sure that people had reason to interact with different factions and had more opportunities to encounter each other beyond travelling to location just to sight see. Desert storms could have then been used to make it difficult to traverse outside of beaten paths. I am starting to think the breakdown of the north road between Allanak and Tuluk was a bad idea after all these years. As if empty desolate long spaces made travel more difficult than a path with more choke points that was more congested with actual people belonging to different factions.
But i digress, mostly beause again this concept of having reasons to interact with each other breaks down even at the city level thanks to fortress clan compounds. It didn't have to be this way, back when Tuluk has an open arena that allowed people to train across clans and employement status the arena used to be a hotbed of activitiy where people hung out just to see the sparring between different people. Now years later the staff is now willing to giving away skill boosts in exchange for sticking around a city for two RL months. I am not sure this is any better than someone sitting at an arena twinking for hours at a time but providing people a constant source of interaction by always being available to spar with. :/
There may be duplicates:
Subcategory | Description
Clan Schedule too limiting
Clan "feels like a job, if I'm taking a slot"
Clan Restrictive Schedule
Clan Force players outside of safe "clan" rooms
Clan Easy way to find Byn leaders
Clan City Leaders are Murderers
Clan Let players advance high in clan rank
Clan Bring GHM to Tuluk
Clan Nobles can't protect their minions
Clan Make templars create a TPS report BEFORE killing characters
Clan Minor Merchant Houses reduce the speciality of GMH (MMH have too much power)
Clan City Leaders are Murderers
Clan Give more coded power to Leaders
Clan Murderous Templars
Clan City Clans have long recruit phases
Clan City Politics is very gated / opaque
Clan Make MMH process easier
Clan Force nobles to be public
Clan T'zai Byn "City Based" quests
Clan Special app into a clan with combat skills
Clan increase "city based" quests for T'zai Byn
Clan remove restrictions on 'leaving the city alone' in clans
Clan More noble house antagonism
Clan Increase clan population caps
Clan remove life oaths
Clan relook clan definitions and goals
Clan templar players killed me
Clan Hire 2 leaders instead of 1
Clan Templar Players killed me
Clan Let clan leaders work OOCly together
Clan Create more anti-establishment clans in the city
Clan unable to join existing plots
City Too Large
City More coded things to do in the city
City Arena Games
City Public "Sparring rooms"
City City is hard to find rare goods
City New foraging items in the city only
City Prevent killing in Taverns
City City is PVP, wilderness is collaborative PVE
City Make throwing in taverns fail<- Updated Feb 19th to be "Throwing/shooting INTO tavern rooms has a greater chance to fail" (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1088360.html#msg1088360)
City First strike attacks in Taverns are half-damage
City Increase stealth detection in taverns<- Updated Feb 19th to be "Stealing Failure always crime-codes thief" (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1088360.html#msg1088360)
City Shrink city sizes
City NPC quests
City More seedy bars in public
City Close the BANKS
City City is PVP, wilderness is collaborative PVE
City Scripted NPCs that teach things
City Let players buy NPCs
City More ways to learn combat skills in the City without a clan
City Nothing happening in the city
City psionic skills don't cost anything in taverns <- Updated Feb 19th to be reduced to "2 focus points" (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1088360.html#msg1088360)
City More "purpose" in the cities
City More "city specific" harvestable resources
City Change how NPCs buy/sell
City Public Crafting Rooms
City Sending way messages while crafting
City Let PCs set up a mat to "sell things" in the bazaar
City Crafting in Taverns<- Updated Feb 12th in the Gaj to have the Roasting Pits be more crafting friendly (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58928.msg1087654.html#msg1087654)
City Sandstorms in the City - unable to travel at night
City Bored in the City
City selling to NPCs sucks
City More city jobs
City More PvE in the City
City Increase reasons why desert players should come into the cities
City More small jobs for players in the cities
City reduce cost of alcohol in taverns<- Updated Feb 5th to reduce the cost of drinks in "lower end taverns" (https://discord.com/channels/304236792750538752/702131385044828170/1071868002468888636)
City increase rewards to city players
City city roles are PVP, wilderness roles are PVE
City increase skill gains in the city
City Make apartments harder to break into
City No reason for "tribes" to enter the city
Criminal Unsure how crime code works
Criminal Instant Hate and playerbase death.
Criminal Remove "wanted flag" at night
Criminal Remove "soldiers hunting down wanted characters"
Criminal 0 karma dwarf kills in public spaces
Criminal No reprocussions for Thieving
Criminal Coded NPC gangs to deal with
Criminal More GANGS in the 'rinth / tuluk
Criminal "NPC" criminals for players to hunt down and kill
Criminal Give more NPCs for thieves to kill / rob
Criminal Things for Criminals to do
Criminal Update Crime Code binary aspects
Criminal Unable to combat against thieves
Playability Access to "who's who" and Leaders
Playability Temporary characters to "observe" arena events
Playability Temporary characters for RPTs
Playability City Exploringis more dangerous than Outside (climb / NPC killers)
Playability Make wilderness more dangerous
Playability Don't make wilderness more punishing
Playability Allow unstorage of characters
Playability Allow more retcons with characters
Playability Loss of control of your character forces you to leave the city
Playability Make wilderness more dangerous
Playability Make wilderness DANGEROUS AT NIGHT
Playability Make water harder to get in the wilderness
Playability RPT should be city based
Playability It is too easy to isolate yourself from others in the world - create a reason for interactivity
Playability Gaining skill in the wilderness is faster than gaining skill in the city
Playability WHERE command to show where players are.
Playability Players can quit whenever they want to in the wilderness, with more agency
Playability Force all players to fill out forms when killing characters
Playability Merchant Classes can way when crafting
Playability Moree nuance between killing and maiming
Playability Bring back TRAP skill
Playability Conflict in wilderness is PVE, and conflict in City is PVP
Playability Gameplay loop is travel outside city, gather resources, travel back to city.
Magick Stop removing magick items
Magick Stop removing magick spells
Magick Hidden Magicker roles do not work in City
Magick Magickers are Slaves to the Templars in Allanak
Magick Make magick not feared
Magick Nothing to do with Magickers in the city
Do NOT invoke the Mansa unless you are prepared for the Mansa.
A city version of wild quit for city. There are many players who play rangery types with wild quit in part because you can literally just bounce, without the 1 time in a row lock of quit ooc as it was designed iirc. I know that's a big appeal of it's own.
One side thing I'd recommend after a foray into playing a criminal character is making it so the sewers count as both city and wilds for forage/stealth skills, would give city characters a place to explore.
Quote from: dumbstruck on February 19, 2023, 06:11:29 PM
A city version of wild quit for city. There are many players who play rangery types with wild quit in part because you can literally just bounce, without the 1 time in a row lock of quit ooc as it was designed iirc. I know that's a big appeal of it's own.
Good call. I have absolutely had this thought during chargen. Quit ooc is helpful but sometimes you got to go. Now.
The ability to scavenge a far wider range of items from midden heaps and trash piles, than just rotten food and water. Example, a piece of bone here, a long bone there, an arrowshaft, a spear head, a deck of cards etc. And also addition of such midden heaps and rubbish piles to Luir's and Red Storm, with items found varying by location.
Maybe in those you can find spice tube stubs and such.
Quote from: dumbstruck on February 19, 2023, 06:11:29 PM
A city version of wild quit for city. There are many players who play rangery types with wild quit in part because you can literally just bounce, without the 1 time in a row lock of quit ooc as it was designed iirc. I know that's a big appeal of it's own.
+10
Quote from: LidlessEye on February 20, 2023, 02:06:08 AM
The ability to scavenge a far wider range of items from midden heaps and trash piles, than just rotten food and water. Example, a piece of bone here, a long bone there, an arrowshaft, a spear head, a deck of cards etc. And also addition of such midden heaps and rubbish piles to Luir's and Red Storm, with items found varying by location.
Maybe in those you can find spice tube stubs and such.
I like that idea. I like that idea a lot.
The inability to be a city survivalist WITHOUT criminal enterprise is very difficult.
Quote from: Miradus on February 20, 2023, 01:14:14 PM
Quote from: LidlessEye on February 20, 2023, 02:06:08 AM
The ability to scavenge a far wider range of items from midden heaps and trash piles, than just rotten food and water. Example, a piece of bone here, a long bone there, an arrowshaft, a spear head, a deck of cards etc. And also addition of such midden heaps and rubbish piles to Luir's and Red Storm, with items found varying by location.
Maybe in those you can find spice tube stubs and such.
I like that idea. I like that idea a lot.
The inability to be a city survivalist WITHOUT criminal enterprise is very difficult.
Do away with pointless rules and regulations that limit or restrict clans from interacting.
Interaction and the ability to interact should be encouraged. We aren't even allowed to hate each other if we can't even interact. If interaction has to be restricted, that agency should generally fall on PCs and PC leadership.
If cities should have a strength it should be in being able to more freely and safely find PCs to interact with. When NPCs or clan rules prevent that, it's running counter to what should be a strength of city play.
The last thing that rules should be doing is limiting and restricting interaction.
I'll say this so the lurkers in the back can hear me:
Clan Schedules do not limit or restrict interaction. They are made to be broken, and for those who follow them, actively increase intra-clan interaction because you're all supposed to be doing <x> right now.
But if you have a meeting with your spice dealer? Skip.
Quote from: Riev on February 23, 2023, 03:27:51 PM
I'll say this so the lurkers in the back can hear me:
Clan Schedules do not limit or restrict interaction. They are made to be broken, and for those who follow them, actively increase intra-clan interaction because you're all supposed to be doing <x> right now.
But if you have a meeting with your spice dealer? Skip.
I believe the complaint is when those restrictions are enforced by animation instead via clan PC leadership, letting said leadership make the call on what the will or won't enforce.
I find it interesting what gets let go to be handled IC'ly by players and what requires an animation for corrective action applied to a player/character INSTEAD OF relying on said PC clan leadership.
Quote from: Barsook on February 20, 2023, 01:24:06 PM
Quote from: Miradus on February 20, 2023, 01:14:14 PM
Quote from: LidlessEye on February 20, 2023, 02:06:08 AM
The ability to scavenge a far wider range of items from midden heaps and trash piles, than just rotten food and water. Example, a piece of bone here, a long bone there, an arrowshaft, a spear head, a deck of cards etc. And also addition of such midden heaps and rubbish piles to Luir's and Red Storm, with items found varying by location.
Maybe in those you can find spice tube stubs and such.
I like that idea. I like that idea a lot.
The inability to be a city survivalist WITHOUT criminal enterprise is very difficult.
If you can forage everything with no real problems, why would there be motivation for anyone to do anything risky at all?
A "city survivalist" is not a real thing. That's called being starving and homeless. The cruel mechanism of keeping people poor is very deliberate, and is what is used to bait people into doing the risky things that the other half want done. Why is the citizen with an invincible bank account full of four thousand greb-coins going to want to risk their life for a kill contract for a thousand coins? The idea is to send
other peoples' children to war. Or then the nobles start rebelling against their leader.
When there are those rules in place, PC Leadership shouldn't be giving carte blanche to ignore them to everyone under them, either. Those rules are there for the PC Leadership to enforce and give occasional exceptions to.
Quote from: Brokkr on February 23, 2023, 03:42:46 PM
When there are those rules in place, PC Leadership shouldn't be giving carte blanche to ignore them to everyone under them, either. Those rules are there for the PC Leadership to enforce and give occasional exceptions to.
That's a bit of an exaggeration considering it applies to one person and the IC leadership wasn't given the IC opportunity to correct it.
It's interesting what rules there are which get reported uo and shrugged off and which draw Staff's attention to immediately handle via animation.
Quote from: DesertT on February 23, 2023, 03:58:11 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on February 23, 2023, 03:42:46 PM
When there are those rules in place, PC Leadership shouldn't be giving carte blanche to ignore them to everyone under them, either. Those rules are there for the PC Leadership to enforce and give occasional exceptions to.
That's a bit of an exaggeration considering it applies to one person and the IC leadership wasn't given the IC opportunity to correct it.
It's interesting what rules there are which get reported uo and shrugged off and which draw Staff's attention to immediately handle via animation.
If you are talking about a specific incident, I have no idea what it is. I assumed you were talking in general, and my comment is meant in general.
Quote from: Brokkr on February 23, 2023, 04:17:07 PM
Quote from: DesertT on February 23, 2023, 03:58:11 PM
Quote from: Brokkr on February 23, 2023, 03:42:46 PM
When there are those rules in place, PC Leadership shouldn't be giving carte blanche to ignore them to everyone under them, either. Those rules are there for the PC Leadership to enforce and give occasional exceptions to.
That's a bit of an exaggeration considering it applies to one person and the IC leadership wasn't given the IC opportunity to correct it.
It's interesting what rules there are which get reported uo and shrugged off and which draw Staff's attention to immediately handle via animation.
If you are talking about a specific incident, I have no idea what it is. I assumed you were talking in general, and my comment is meant in general.
My Bad!!
It didn't help that I am right now working on the wording for a complaint listing this very thing.
It feels that all too often, animations occur for corrective or disciplinary (negative) purposes, especially within the Cities.
To your point though, if PC Leadership isn't enforcing the rules as they should be, then that should be handled at the leadership level, should it not?
Bypassing the PC leadership to handle a disciplinary issue undermines the PC leadership and disrupts character development.
In the military, if I tell my Soldiers or Marines that they can violate a certain rule, then I am the one who takes the punishment/correction. My leadership doesn't bypass me and punish my folks. They punish me!! The person who authorized them to violate the rule.
This should be the case IC'ly. If a leader allows a rule to be broken, then that leader should be held responsible for it. If that leader's superior is an NPC, then fair game! Let there be an animation. But if that leader has a PC leader, file that down to that player/character to handle.
This goes to a larger issue where rules are posted but then the person filing a report about someone breaking a rule gets told, "Meh, nobody really cares about that rule."
Another example: a room has a searchable door that cannot be picked; I file a bug about the door and get told that it's intentionally non-pickable. I then find a more interesting door and discover that it's lockable,, then promptly get chastised harshly for picking said door.
Anyway, my main point is to please utilize IC leadership to enforce IC rules rather than Staff Animations that bypass said leadership, undercutting them and undermining their IC authority.
Quote from: Night Queen on February 23, 2023, 03:39:57 PM
Quote from: Barsook on February 20, 2023, 01:24:06 PM
Quote from: Miradus on February 20, 2023, 01:14:14 PM
Quote from: LidlessEye on February 20, 2023, 02:06:08 AM
The ability to scavenge a far wider range of items from midden heaps and trash piles, than just rotten food and water. Example, a piece of bone here, a long bone there, an arrowshaft, a spear head, a deck of cards etc. And also addition of such midden heaps and rubbish piles to Luir's and Red Storm, with items found varying by location.
Maybe in those you can find spice tube stubs and such.
I like that idea. I like that idea a lot.
The inability to be a city survivalist WITHOUT criminal enterprise is very difficult.
If you can forage everything with no real problems, why would there be motivation for anyone to do anything risky at all?
A "city survivalist" is not a real thing. That's called being starving and homeless. The cruel mechanism of keeping people poor is very deliberate, and is what is used to bait people into doing the risky things that the other half want done. Why is the citizen with an invincible bank account full of four thousand greb-coins going to want to risk their life for a kill contract for a thousand coins? The idea is to send other peoples' children to war. Or then the nobles start rebelling against their leader.
Without going into detail, there are automated systems in place, in both cities where with even middling forage skill you can comfortablly make like 200-300 coins an RL day. As these already exist, PCs already have the means to live comfortably.
Furthermore, I think to entice people to play more in cities, perhaps crafts/goods can exist that can only be made by city/general classes? That might give people a reason to both live in and visit cities, for things other than just apartments and water.
The goal is not to give City PCs more coins, rather, it is to reward City play. On classes which are able to forage well and also find food in the wilderness, it is very entertaining to collect various herbs, fungi, tiny worms and making things from them. I want the same experience on a City PC, where I can get excited about what shiny new stuff I can scavenge up. A leather cord? a piece of bone? An old helmet? A moss which I found growing under the rubble of a collapsed building that is poisonous?
In Tuluk for example, the ruins can be a good place for finding such things, being exposed to risk. Furthermore, city foraging system I am suggesting lets you find things randomly and most of the times these are parts of a recipe, like a spearhead or an arrowhead, that you can either assemble, if you have the skill, or sell off to someone else, as opposed to hunting, where you get raw goods.
What I am aiming for, is to easily have fun without needing a wilderness subclass on my city PC who is not a crafter. Granted, not all may share my view.
Quote from: LidlessEye on February 24, 2023, 12:53:43 AM
A leather cord? a piece of bone? An old helmet?
Ooh man. If I could find old gear and repair it up some to practice armor repair, or sell it to someoen to repair. That'd be cool.
Toss me a request with your ideas.
City forage is generic. Meaning any rsector "city" room in, you can forage from the generic table. So if you thinks something should be able to be city foraged in any city room, please be specific.
I can also make it so that specific items might be able to be foraged in specific rooms. Again, please be specific (this specific item in this specific room).
Quote from: Brokkr on February 24, 2023, 01:21:18 AM
Toss me a request with your ideas.
City forage is generic. Meaning any rsector "city" room in, you can forage from the generic table. So if you thinks something should be able to be city foraged in any city room, please be specific.
I can also make it so that specific items might be able to be foraged in specific rooms. Again, please be specific (this specific item in this specific room).
Will do.
Player collaboration often deters me away from playing in populated areas where PC's have any coded
Your PC kills a low level thug Celf in a labyrinth gang, then decides to lay low on the other side of the known world until shit cools off, and then within 24 RL hours you're being arrested and executed in a closed room by a human guard.
With a small player base I guess it's expected that PC's will communicate and cooperate with who's available, so I'm not really complaining, just recognizing the situation.
If IG organizations cooperated less, and fucked each other over more, I'd be playing in cities more regularly.
As it is, if your PC has any kind of heat on them from any organization, unless you're part of a clan, best to sit in caves or in Red Storm.
One thing that really concerns me about this conversation is that Allanak is essentially the new player experience. Years ago when I started playing Allanak was fairly bustling, so as a new player I was able to connect with others fairly easy and find the fun parts of the game, did the byn, had a really cool guild boss introduce me to the criminal underworld RP in the rinth. (thanks Butcher Brons)
But if allanak is not bustling, if there is no byn there, no cool rinth bosses having stuff going on that people can get involved in, if everyone is hiding in clan compounds, no one there to offer work to new players, there may well be potential new players coming in, walking around an empty allanak for a while and then just leaving never to return.
its great fun to be off in outposts and wilderness having a grand old time outside of Tek's gaze, and I'm as guilty of that as anyone, but its not very sustainable for new players coming into the game and learning how to play they will almost never make it to where the fun is and if they can't find the fun they will leave.
Quote from: rohenne on February 24, 2023, 09:16:55 AM
One thing that really concerns me about this conversation is that Allanak is essentially the new player experience. Years ago when I started playing Allanak was fairly bustling, so as a new player I was able to connect with others fairly easy and find the fun parts of the game, did the byn, had a really cool guild boss introduce me to the criminal underworld RP in the rinth. (thanks Butcher Brons)
But if allanak is not bustling, if there is no byn there, no cool rinth bosses having stuff going on that people can get involved in, if everyone is hiding in clan compounds, no one there to offer work to new players, there may well be potential new players coming in, walking around an empty allanak for a while and then just leaving never to return.
its great fun to be off in outposts and wilderness having a grand old time outside of Tek's gaze, and I'm as guilty of that as anyone, but its not very sustainable for new players coming into the game and learning how to play they will almost never make it to where the fun is and if they can't find the fun they will leave.
Agreed, Allanak is definitely the place most newbs start. I started there forever ago and remember getting roped into some crazy shit right out the dorms, but that was back when we had 60-70 players on average. It's a different world now.
I think the point of rohenne's post (they can correct me if I'm wrong) is that - it doesn't matter how many people are playing and logged in to the game. If none of them are in Allanak, because everyone thinks no one ever plays in Allanak, then the new player who DOES show up in Allanak, will see no one is there, and have no one to RP with.
Even if there are 100 players logged in. A thousand players. Ten thousand players. If they're all playing tribals, then that means they're not playing in Allanak.
If you want to attract new players to the game, you need to be where the new players enter the game. Otherwise they'll see an empty city and not bother to log in again.
put a sparring pit in the gaj and you'd see the empty city problem go away overnight
Quote from: Hestia on February 24, 2023, 03:40:21 PM
I think the point of rohenne's post (they can correct me if I'm wrong) is that - it doesn't matter how many people are playing and logged in to the game. If none of them are in Allanak, because everyone thinks no one ever plays in Allanak, then the new player who DOES show up in Allanak, will see no one is there, and have no one to RP with.
Even if there are 100 players logged in. A thousand players. Ten thousand players. If they're all playing tribals, then that means they're not playing in Allanak.
If you want to attract new players to the game, you need to be where the new players enter the game. Otherwise they'll see an empty city and not bother to log in again.
We should have a newbie alert when they join in the city you're in.
[Newbie] A new player has joined the game for the first time in Allanak!
Then everyone can run to the Gaj and go
take their boots, I mean roleplay with them.
Quote from: Hestia on February 24, 2023, 03:40:21 PM
I think the point of rohenne's post (they can correct me if I'm wrong) is that - it doesn't matter how many people are playing and logged in to the game. If none of them are in Allanak, because everyone thinks no one ever plays in Allanak, then the new player who DOES show up in Allanak, will see no one is there, and have no one to RP with.
Even if there are 100 players logged in. A thousand players. Ten thousand players. If they're all playing tribals, then that means they're not playing in Allanak.
If you want to attract new players to the game, you need to be where the new players enter the game. Otherwise they'll see an empty city and not bother to log in again.
that is exactly my point, reading through this I realized that most of these problems would be solved with like 20 extra players and I was thinking it would be cool to have a gaming youtuber or someone do a video on the game and maybe draw in more players, but with nothing happening in Allanak there would be nothing for them to do especially if they have to get north of shield wall to find any fun. no way a new player is going to do that without dying a few times and they wouldn't even have a way to know that's what they should do to find the fun. If I remember correctly everything in the character creation process recommends a new player needs to start in Allanak.
I suspect Staff is already aware of this issue which is what this thread is about.
Ive tried many muds where my entire experience was log in to empty city, walk around and find no one and nothing going on, then leave to try something else. The reason that Arm became my favorite rp mud was because it was the first mud I ever played where I logged into the dorm for the first time and there was people in the Gaj chatting and within my first 10 mins of game time i was already being picked up by the Byn.
with things as they are right now I suspect even a veteran player returning after a hiatas would have a hard time finding a place to plug in.
a lot of times when I'm rolling a new character i wish there was a way to know where people were actually playing because for me i play to roleplay, like the pve mechanics are ok but If i wanted to play a game with no friends or people to talk to and just focus on mechanics i would play an mmorpg.
I realize now there are ways to app into clans and such but a new player i do not expect will have any idea about that.
on my last character i played i went from Tuluk to Luir's to Nak to STorm just searching for anyone to rp with for anything and find not a soul. I know enough about the game to know there is fun stuff going on its just happening in more private places it just sucks because it seems like it creates a catch-22 where there is not enough players for everything to feel lively as it used to, but the player silence in the cities is going to deter potential new players in this sort of self perpetuating cycle.
It would nice to flag new accounts under a certain amount of hours played is flagged, every time they're creating a new PC, or that they receive a generated e-mail stating population statistics in the game, such as "so and so amount of players logged into <region> throughout the past month!"
That way, when a new player is creating a character concept, they have a solid basis for how many players are where, etc.
I don't have any idea what kind of coded statistics the Staff have access to or how they're able to compile it, so I'm just spitballing something that could be impossible.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 24, 2023, 05:20:05 PM
It would nice to flag new accounts under a certain amount of hours played is flagged, every time they're creating a new PC, or that they receive a generated e-mail stating population statistics in the game, such as "so and so amount of players logged into <region> throughout the past month!"
That way, when a new player is creating a character concept, they have a solid basis for how many players are where, etc.
I don't have any idea what kind of coded statistics the Staff have access to or how they're able to compile it, so I'm just spitballing something that could be impossible.
this would be awesome, someone could know they are gonna have two dudes in all of red storm or thirty in Tuluk and make their choice.
I think a more variable crimcode for actions short of treason could be healthy for city criminal play that does not involve the Rinth, especially for the early life of criminal pcs and soldier-murderers.
Getting crimflagged for engaging in actions that do not involve the nobility or templarate could honestly be half or a quarter of the current duration, and the current duration reserved for criminal actions against the upper crust of the cities. It's just too damn long of a time spent not being involved with a decent portion of the city as a criminal, what is it like two hours of being crimcoded?
Admin, in THIS topic, is looking to improve city play. That is all. If you have ideas about a different topic you're welcome to open a different topic, or participate in other existing topics.
If you all keep derailing and sniping at each other it's just going to result in another locked topic, and more disappointed players who are sincerely trying to enjoy the game, and see improvements made.
Quote from: Hestia on February 24, 2023, 10:19:53 PM
If you all keep derailing and sniping at each other it's just going to result in another locked topic, and more disappointed players who are sincerely trying to enjoy the game, and see improvements made.
If locking a thread disappoints everyone and prevents improvements from being made, why are you guys always threatening to lock threads (when not actually locking them outright?) I don't even see any real sniping going on here anyway.
None of this will matter until there are city-based stories that feel relevant. You can't sustain it with automated quests and progs and a reduction in the focus cost of psionics inside taverns. There have to actually be things going on in cities that make it appealing to play there.
That has been missing for like seven years.
To get city based macroplots to work, people need to be conditioned to round table plot points with antagonists and staff in a semi OOC manner. But from what I have seen a good portion of people refuse to take the L because they have a protagonist mindset.
I do not know how to get this to change in a satisfactory and fair fashion, but the sooner people start to do it the sooner the more satisfying city storylines will be.
YES, sometimes you have to make a game vs play decision to make gameplay more engaging for people. Lose that evidence, drop that rumour, release that criminal.. Whatever.
Quote from: Suhuy on February 25, 2023, 12:05:53 AM
Quote from: Hestia on February 24, 2023, 10:19:53 PM
If you all keep derailing and sniping at each other it's just going to result in another locked topic, and more disappointed players who are sincerely trying to enjoy the game, and see improvements made.
If locking a thread disappoints everyone and prevents improvements from being made, why are you guys always threatening to lock threads (when not actually locking them outright?) I don't even see any real sniping going on here anyway.
I deleted 8 posts after having received several complaints from players. That's why you don't see them. Stay on topic. If you have a problem with moderation, submit a request.
One thing I've noticed as a follower of this thread is that people seem to be trying to make it a one size fits all type solution.
One will recommend questing and others love it, then someone else will say it will be the end of the world as we know it.
One will recommend city forage spots, and more diverse reasons to be in a city then just "It's night time." and someone else will poo poo that.
I don't think it's going to be a singular change or action that's going to help bring folks back to the city.
I think it's going to take having a lot of options of stuff, some you might hate and never use, some you might. It's not a competition to see who wins and gets their thing they want added to the game, it needs to be a culmination of various things that get added and give choice to folks.
To me the reason I enjoy the outdoors is because one day I can go hunt, one day I can forage, one day I can explore, one day I can go find herbs, one day I can go do X Y and Z, there are tons of options with outdoors play.
Indoors is sorta lame now and I get it, we gotta make the in city play less...lame.
Getting back on topic, I'll add my two cents and echo the sentiment that, as an older person with a real-life schedule and responsibilities, this game takes up way too much time, and the solution is to play roles where I can do what I want, when I want, without having to coordinate with other players.
The way the game is set up, this usually means indie ranger-ish/crafter. Why?
1. The combat skill code has always more-or-less required that you grind on critters to advance beyond middling. (Maybe this has changed recently, since I haven't been playing.)
2. I don't have to rely on coordinating with other players to make money...I can just go get the raw materials myself.
3. No schedule means the only thing putting a limit on what I do is the day/night cycle and storm code, both of which are manageable nuisances.
For example, if I have 1 hour to play, and I log in at high sun in the Byn, I'm fucked. I can't advance a skill. I can't make money. Everyone else logs out or goes semi-afk until the next dawn. I spend an hour emoting the same b.s. I've emoted a million times over 25 years. I go to the Gaj and nobody is interested in me.
If I'm playing a pure crafter with zero combat skill, I can still make money staying in the city, but chances are I need some sort of inaccessible raw material. So I sit around waiting an hour for my 1 or 2 grebber contacts to log in...they never do, and there goes an hour because our playtimes didn't sync up.
If I have 1 hour to play as an indie ranger-ish crafter and I log in at high sun, I can still go out and pursue some goals. If I want to train, I can--and I know that the time will be well-spent, because I essentially can select the difficulty. If I need something, I can just go get it. I don't have to wait on a schedule or for a particular person to log in.
In a nutshell, if you aren't into mudsex, directly involved in politics, or spamcasting, being stuck in the city is a boring waste of time.
(I exclude playing miscreants from this, because while other folks seem to have trouble with them, I usually can find something amusing to do.)
The solutions (for players like me, anyway) are a) to make skillgain reasonable within the context of being city-clanned, b) remove clan schedules that dictate what you must be doing at a particular time, c) facilitate char-to-char goods transactions in some manner that doesn't require face-to-face interaction.
Quote from: Synthesis on February 25, 2023, 01:46:58 PM
Getting back on topic, I'll add my two cents and echo the sentiment that, as an older person with a real-life schedule and responsibilities, this game takes up way too much time, and the solution is to play roles where I can do what I want, when I want, without having to coordinate with other players.
The way the game is set up, this usually means indie ranger-ish/crafter. Why?
1. The combat skill code has always more-or-less required that you grind on critters to advance beyond middling. (Maybe this has changed recently, since I haven't been playing.)
2. I don't have to rely on coordinating with other players to make money...I can just go get the raw materials myself.
3. No schedule means the only thing putting a limit on what I do is the day/night cycle and storm code, both of which are manageable nuisances.
For example, if I have 1 hour to play, and I log in at high sun in the Byn, I'm fucked. I can't advance a skill. I can't make money. Everyone else logs out or goes semi-afk until the next dawn. I spend an hour emoting the same b.s. I've emoted a million times over 25 years. I go to the Gaj and nobody is interested in me.
If I'm playing a pure crafter with zero combat skill, I can still make money staying in the city, but chances are I need some sort of inaccessible raw material. So I sit around waiting an hour for my 1 or 2 grebber contacts to log in...they never do, and there goes an hour because our playtimes didn't sync up.
If I have 1 hour to play as an indie ranger-ish crafter and I log in at high sun, I can still go out and pursue some goals. If I want to train, I can--and I know that the time will be well-spent, because I essentially can select the difficulty. If I need something, I can just go get it. I don't have to wait on a schedule or for a particular person to log in.
In a nutshell, if you aren't into mudsex, directly involved in politics, or spamcasting, being stuck in the city is a boring waste of time.
(I exclude playing miscreants from this, because while other folks seem to have trouble with them, I usually can find something amusing to do.)
The solutions (for players like me, anyway) are a) to make skillgain reasonable within the context of being city-clanned, b) remove clan schedules that dictate what you must be doing at a particular time, c) facilitate char-to-char goods transactions in some manner that doesn't require face-to-face interaction.
+1
In the context of the above two posts, would it be fair to say that attempts to make people more reliant on one another to do things are instead just making sure things aren't happening because no one wants to deal with the hassle of aligning the pieces and the times most days? I cannot speak for other people in such cases but that does echo a tendency to play certain types of roles over other types of roles for me, to some degree at least, and some of the reasoning at least.
I think city clan sponsored roles should be required to show up in public.. Not hide in compound and way people all day.. Nobles should be in the bars, they should be available.. Sure they run a chance of eating an assassination, but also new players.. militia players and everyone else actually sees someone to interact with.
i have an idea. something like 'den of wonders' but make it more like a npc automated place instead of a place pc's have to keep up. could have the npc games that already exist outside of nak like betting or spicerun tables, sparring pit, dart board food and drinks and relatively safe for allanak denizens of all walks of life. like a neutral place almost. I thought an area like that was really cool and facilitated a lot of players interacting and plots spreading around.
Quote from: Mellifera on February 03, 2023, 01:41:49 PM
Quote from: Supified on February 03, 2023, 12:27:52 PM
I think any permeant altering action should have rules similar to pking, because losing a char vs losing an aspect of a character can be very much the same thing.
So, you said you weren't reading the replies, but to clarify for anyone else... it does? Like, you need consent to disfigure or dismember. OOC consent. Like, not only do you need to request OOC consent to do a torture scene, you also need to request separate OOC consent if you want to disfigure or dismember someone in any permanent fashion, and if they say no, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, you just have to not disfigure them. This applies for everyone, including templars.
Maybe you stopped playing before this was implemented? I'm not even sure if there was ever a time that wasn't in place. The rules are definitely not grey on that matter, they're very black and white. If you violate this somehow (which is essentially impossible to do under any circumstance but essentially one, since staff or the player in question need to directly implement the disfigurement themselves) the punishment is very harsh, up to forced storage and beyond if I'm not mistaken.
Then the rule is just fing ignored because I stopped playing only a handful of months ago and no longer staff had no problem doing this without any ask of my consent.
Quote from: Supified on March 14, 2023, 03:25:45 PM
Quote from: Mellifera on February 03, 2023, 01:41:49 PM
Quote from: Supified on February 03, 2023, 12:27:52 PM
I think any permeant altering action should have rules similar to pking, because losing a char vs losing an aspect of a character can be very much the same thing.
So, you said you weren't reading the replies, but to clarify for anyone else... it does? Like, you need consent to disfigure or dismember. OOC consent. Like, not only do you need to request OOC consent to do a torture scene, you also need to request separate OOC consent if you want to disfigure or dismember someone in any permanent fashion, and if they say no, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it, you just have to not disfigure them. This applies for everyone, including templars.
Maybe you stopped playing before this was implemented? I'm not even sure if there was ever a time that wasn't in place. The rules are definitely not grey on that matter, they're very black and white. If you violate this somehow (which is essentially impossible to do under any circumstance but essentially one, since staff or the player in question need to directly implement the disfigurement themselves) the punishment is very harsh, up to forced storage and beyond if I'm not mistaken.
Then the rule is just fing ignored because I stopped playing only a handful of months ago and no longer staff had no problem doing this without any ask of my consent.
By my reading of help consent (http://armageddon.org/help/view/consent), dismembering requires consent but disfiguring does not.
- Forcible tattooing is specifically called out as something not requiring consent.
- "In the case of mutilation, an action that would cause a character to lose their ability to function in some way, the victim may request that they be killed by the procedure."
I'm unsure whether things like cutting off fingers/toes or docking ears would require consent: although they are "mutilations" I would think that they are allowed without consent because, unlike e.g. hand/foot amputation, they don't impose a hard loss of function on the level of "now you can't run" or "now you can't etwo." Obviously all of these things require staff involvement since there's no command to do it.
I would hope that everyone here would honor a request for PK instead of disfigurement even if the rules don't require it.
(That's just to say what
I think the consent rules currently are, not what they should be. I do think the current rules are about right; if I could change one thing I would take a slightly harder line against sexually-tinged torture/mutilation. I do understand that people enjoy the game in different ways and that being disfigured is worse than PK for some of us.)
I personally disagree. Lets look at some of the rules. I am pretty sure staff for example, arn't supposed to go around killing characters. But are they allowed to remove limbs?
So you're allowed to request a PK instead of losing limbs. Seems like an awfully huge loophole which is kind of my point. I suspect a lot of the abuse was handled via using these sorts of loopholes and what was the results? No one wants to play in cities where this sort of thing happens.
Hey templars need to be scary, but you can't go pking all the time. How about we just pmaim that will be okay right? Then players voted with their wallets (ie by not playing there) and now there is a thread wondering why.
Anyway, whatever, we can just bury our heads in the sand about how players feel about character with ultimate power over them acting in this manner, I'm sure it won't have any consequences to the game.
Sorry, I'm still bitter.
Quote from: rohenne on February 26, 2023, 06:41:11 PM
i have an idea. something like 'den of wonders' but make it more like a npc automated place instead of a place pc's have to keep up. could have the npc games that already exist outside of nak like betting or spicerun tables, sparring pit, dart board food and drinks and relatively safe for allanak denizens of all walks of life. like a neutral place almost. I thought an area like that was really cool and facilitated a lot of players interacting and plots spreading around.
I requested this and it was denied but I am going to +1 this forever. It is such a needed part of the city experience that it shouldn't be left to PC hands. There is a huge problem with people inside cities not finding RP - this idea allows rinth and southern PCs to interact in a 'safe' ish environment. Especially if it's not in a lawful area as there's no reason for templars not to arrest criminals, but criminals very much can self-police through violence if there is an area where plying trades is 'off-limits' - the one caveat being it should definitely be lawful-adjacent to make the trip there 'safe.'
The Den was such a fabulous place for Allanak. It's sorely missed. I wouldn't mind seeing it be rebuilt in some capacity. For most players in clans and out of them that is the useful side of the city.
Some form of a where command would be nice. Allanak and Tuluk both have too many taverns and gathering places that it can make bumping into someone hard. It's a good thing for navigating IC social barriers but hurts finding interaction
Quote from: SpyGuy on March 16, 2023, 09:49:26 PM
The Den was such a fabulous place for Allanak. It's sorely missed. I wouldn't mind seeing it be rebuilt in some capacity. For most players in clans and out of them that is the useful side of the city.
Some form of a where command would be nice. Allanak and Tuluk both have too many taverns and gathering places that it can make bumping into someone hard. It's a good thing for navigating IC social barriers but hurts finding interaction
Both of these things. The Den was special because it was far more than just a bar - it was an actual hub of activity that generated a lot of RP on its own which meshed well with many different plots. Losing it was a serious blow that still hurts, I truly wish it would return in some way. A lot of my enjoyment playing in Nak died with it.
A where command - opt-in or not - could only help matters.
The loss of the Den is a prime example of the sort of things that makes people not want to play in cities, and the fact that the things that caused that to occur ( of which I blame primarily staff and policies both unfollowed and not in existence) is also root cause.
I still say this thread is proof of changes needed and a refusal to make those changes. People voted with their time, they said they don't want to play here and the things since this started happening is so far no change. No attempt to reign in powerful enforcer pcs, create new rules, or enforce existing which have loopholes big enough to drive a truck through, add more also policies that mean damage done stays done, no matter how it is done and why it was done.
Why would anyone want to build something special in a place it will be destroyed on a whim and for the love of torture porn. Nothing I've seen even remotely addresses this and if you think people didn't leave because they were sick of playing out one sided abuse over and over again than I suspect the people who left arn't even being asked.
If the player numbers in Allanak get above 5 again during prime time, a neutral speak easy may be a worthy investment. But until that happens it isn't.
This is essentially what the Atrium should be.
1. More open to play other then being stone wall harsh. ( yes it's a harsh world but almost to point very little Rp with anyone City Noble or highborn.)
2. Open up cities! So a player can roam around find plots and not just limited to a few rooms. (meaning live there, rent a place make a life)
3. Game itself needs a welcome come play and flesh out more. To me.. It seems more like a log on kill someone or be a asshole to them right off. Run off any rp because you know it's a mean game world and who wants to play with others here right? But that just how I am feeling with it. MDC is fine when a reason is born and fleshed out. Otherwise it's hacking and slashing with a emote here and there.
Game itself has become the too harsh to talk to others (icly) or reason to rp with the characters. Yes we can be hard and desert rough. But like Tuluk there is little to no reason to go there if you are not from there to find fun length rp. Allanak same routine, start get mauled by highborn then thrown in the arena. Cities for last some years has become a hide and play in area other then a play and city growth. By the players I mean! From watching the game last few years no merchant or highborns are out much. Its a log on post a rumor in the tavern and wait in the wagon or compound to someone ways you type rp or play..however you want to call it.
QuoteIf the player numbers in Allanak get above 5 again during prime time, a neutral speak easy may be a worthy investment. But until that happens it isn't.
This is essentially what the Atrium should be.
I don't see either how this new thing behaves differently than any other meeting place or how this remotely fits Atrium's description/purpose.
Quote from: Armaddict on March 20, 2023, 11:39:28 AM
QuoteIf the player numbers in Allanak get above 5 again during prime time, a neutral speak easy may be a worthy investment. But until that happens it isn't.
This is essentially what the Atrium should be.
I don't see either how this new thing behaves differently than any other meeting place or how this remotely fits Atrium's description/purpose.
Admittedly, I always thought it would be cool if the Atrium had a 'sponsored' tavern where you'd go to find those people who are interested or CAPABLE of being aide-ly.
Then I found out they DID have one, and NOBODY went there. Ever. So they sold it.
... Just saying.
I think broadly speaking, making city guilds more interesting and capable of more would improve populations in cities. In addition to that, a satisfaction system where food, drink and spice increase satisfaction, which when maxed provides buffs. Satisfaction decays so if it is too low the character could suffer slight debuffs due to 'depression'. I don't think it would be too hard to code in, given code already exists for 'Relationship to Land'. Now, if city based guilds, especially the crafters had recipes/facilities for food and drink unavailable to wilderness types, then wilderness types would have to visit/trade with cities to get those luxuries, much like how it happened with tribes and civilizations irl. Give the city folk a bargaining chip. Wilderness types already have one in the form ot being unparalleled when it comes to aqquiring materials.
People play where it's easiest.
Right now it's easier to play an outdoor/adventure character being an enemy rogue of the city states. It's better for your survivability as a wasteland character.
Make it more survivable, and better for skill gains/power to play a city based adventure/outdoor PC and players will start making city based PC's.
Quote from: roughneck on March 21, 2023, 10:06:40 AM
People play where it's easiest.
Right now it's easier to play an outdoor/adventure character being an enemy rogue of the city states. It's better for your survivability as a wasteland character.
Make it more survivable, and better for skill gains/power to play a city based adventure/outdoor PC and players will start making city based PC's.
Related:
Power in a city kind of requires staff assistance to ensure that political clout is overt and shows consequences.
In the desert, strongest guy with a group behind him wins.
Find a way to better a city character's power (or lack thereof) with more consequences available.
Guild Leaders should not be tucking tail at the first sign of a soldier every damn day (LEADERS, I said).
GMH folks should not be worried about getting bar-dwarfed because three bosses ago someone failed to deliver.
Quote from: roughneck on March 21, 2023, 10:06:40 AM
People play where it's easiest.
Right now it's easier to play an outdoor/adventure character being an enemy rogue of the city states.
I am not sure about easier but probably safer if you know what you are doing.
This might be an unintended consequence of the poison changes. For better or worse, peraine was a big equalizer, one of the few things that could stop a skilled warrior and or mage as easily as bash could kill the merchant classes. You could negotiate with a templar but not negotiate with that flying peraine arrow to the neck.
QuoteI've really enjoyed some of the batshit and cool as cucumber Templars over time. Samos. Elithan. Eunolia. Feliya (sp?). Validos. Lyvren. Nektol. Sahtuk. Etc etc.
Thank you for putting me (Sahtuk) into a class with those others. He was one of my all time favorite PCs to play!
I like the idea of staff enticing players into the cities. The recent change of Byn special app Troopers is a great addition. It still requires a special app though.
I believe the root of this issue is that play outside the cities has been incentivized by staff decisions in the past few years. I don't believe this was intentional but it's a combination of these factors that have led to lower city populations. Especially since city roles tend to be structured around group dynamics and wilderness roles are more solo, dead cities really hurt the city players.
A lot of people have described push factors that make them want to leave cities (templars, clan rules, etc) but there are pull factors too. Things that incentivize playing outside cities and that any work to entice players into have to compete with:
1) Magick subclasses being everywhere: I won't rant about this here but it's easier than ever to play a wilderness mage. One city kills mages. The other gems them. So if you don't want to play a gemmed then you're out in the wastes.
2) Isolated roles: Specifically things revolving around the mul outpost and desert elf tribes. I've some experience with both and they're actually really fun to play around. You can't expect to offer a new feature of the game to make an isolated area exciting and that not to draw players from other areas. Armageddon's population in different areas fluctuates as people die/store but this is just opening up one more place to pull people from cities.
3) Group dynamics: This is a game built on interaction. When it becomes easier to find that interaction out of a city than inside one, it'll pull more players to choose doing that either IC or OOC for their next character. Also if you're finding a hard time finding interaction in a city you're more likely to play a character that can solo, which wilderness roles excel at.
My point here is that if we want the cities to be where people are, they need to become the most interesting places to play. Plots need to revolve around them and be of a scale that they could involve everyone playing in cities from the templars to an indy grebber in some capacity. The cities could also probably use more bite outside their walls, recently it seems like the cities (on a PC level) fear the wastes more than the other way around. I think that should be true of your indy grebber but not when the city is motivated to action. It's not that fun being on the losing side and well, if you lose your city based role you might just roll up something different next.
This isn't to diminish the accomplishments of any players that have made these roles outside the cities more interesting. You're all great. I hope the cities entice you next character round.
Edit to add: I loved Sahtuk man! So scary but spared my life at least twice haha
I try to play 1: 1 city to wilderness the last few years but my pcs (only in recent years) seem to last between half a year to two years. I can only stay alive IRL so long.
Quote from: SpyGuy on April 20, 2023, 02:26:45 AM
stuff
Yessireebobjoe.
1. Less hospitable wilds. It's a necessity.
2. City centricity.
3. Me playing Tektolnes.
Life just needs to be harder for PC's outside the city.
Make it easier to become a badass inside the city (the fast start soldier/mercenary thing is a great start) and provide IG incentive to kill/rob/bully PC's outside of the city.
Tribal? You pay a 2x outsider price for everything at the major shops like Salarr.
Unaffiliated hunter? Soldiers and mercenaries should shake them down worse than raiders do if they find them outside of the gates, then lie about it.
Make the freedom that comes from these wilderness indy roles come at a higher price, right now it's huge benefit with very little downside. More coin, more skills, more action than city roles.
Freedom should be punished!
Stop allowing templars and nobles to be so frikken hostile toward people. I get that they SHOULD be..but I have seen several look at people that are fresh out creation and demand coins from them.
If you havent got a good balanced templar in the cities.. people avoid playing or going there because they do not want to be harrassed by someone that just wants to make their day hard and fine them for breathing, or not tying their laces.
Give templars a stipend from the city so that they can leave off dishing out stupid petty fines of 300 here and there to people that cannot afford it.
Quote from: roughneck on April 20, 2023, 05:40:46 AM
Life just needs to be harder for PC's outside the city.
Make it easier to become a badass inside the city (the fast start soldier/mercenary thing is a great start) and provide IG incentive to kill/rob/bully PC's outside of the city.
Tribal? You pay a 2x outsider price for everything at the major shops like Salarr.
Unaffiliated hunter? Soldiers and mercenaries should shake them down worse than raiders do if they find them outside of the gates, then lie about it.
Make the freedom that comes from these wilderness indy roles come at a higher price, right now it's huge benefit with very little downside. More coin, more skills, more action than city roles.
Freedom should be punished!
Shaking people down and raising prices on people is going to make them olay outside more, not less. These things are the direct opposite of what would draw them to play in either city.
Quote from: Patuk on April 20, 2023, 06:18:46 AM
Quote from: roughneck on April 20, 2023, 05:40:46 AM
Life just needs to be harder for PC's outside the city.
Make it easier to become a badass inside the city (the fast start soldier/mercenary thing is a great start) and provide IG incentive to kill/rob/bully PC's outside of the city.
Tribal? You pay a 2x outsider price for everything at the major shops like Salarr.
Unaffiliated hunter? Soldiers and mercenaries should shake them down worse than raiders do if they find them outside of the gates, then lie about it.
Make the freedom that comes from these wilderness indy roles come at a higher price, right now it's huge benefit with very little downside. More coin, more skills, more action than city roles.
Freedom should be punished!
Shaking people down and raising prices on people is going to make them olay outside more, not less. These things are the direct opposite of what would draw them to play in either city.
Eh, if it's easier to be a House-Affiliated city-based hunter, meaning cheaper supplies, safer life, less grief, then I think people would be more likely to play a city based hunter than a non-city based hunter.
People play tribal/Red Storm hunters because raiders are more friendly (or cooperative), resources are easier to come by, and skills are easier to increase. If you flip this, people will play in cities.
At some point, it became easier to be an outlaw/enemy of Allanak, rather than the other way around.
Thought:
Do you feel that city plots are stale or few and far between due to the fact that the cities have to maintain some sense of normalcy? Like, you create an outdoor plot and its something that might live for a short while but is easily retconned or 'destroyed' when your character dies or moves on.
But in a city, any plot you might engage in will change the city in a way that is noticed if it disappears. (See: Consortium of Wonder)
To me it seems like a lot of city plots, by necessity, are about building and adding to what exists and/or changing how the city approaches a certain event. Non-city characters are about building relationships, trade, engaging big scary PvE beasts and sometimes even being an antagonist to others just for fun. If I'm playing in Tuluk and want to 'antagonize' any PC or NPC group it has to go through a lot of staff work and decisions about whether the game world is ready to be changed.
Is that just me?
To me, city plot primarily means politics. Which not all players want to, or are adept at, participating in.
If city plots mean politics, they're going to be fairly empty for a good while longer now. The majority of PCs will always be vaguely combat-related souls, and not people who relate to that stuff well
Quote from: Brokkr on April 20, 2023, 11:37:51 AM
To me, city plot primarily means politics. Which not all players want to, or are adept at, participating in.
There is a WHOLE LOT more that can be done with city plots than politics. There are all sorts of situations, long term and short term, that can be created to make action-oriented or non-political people enjoy time in cities. Politics doesn't exist without those people. They need strings to connect before they can tug on them.
Quote from: Brokkr on April 20, 2023, 11:37:51 AM
To me, city plot primarily means politics. Which not all players want to, or are adept at, participating in.
I think this is a very narrow conception a city plot. It may involve politics at a higher level but at other levels involve anything from resource fetch quests to combat. Theft, assassination, all that good stuff. Sometimes the politics is the least interesting and least involved part of it.
I wasn't really talking about 'city plots' anyways. I was talking about staff plots. Centering those around the cities, not wilderness roles. Creating plots that can be engaged with and experienced by a broad set of PCs, particularly giving mundanes some sort of role. That's how you might bring people back to the cities. The past few years have been a series of decisions incentivizing play away from them and so here we are.
Lets use Allanak for example, because Allanak:
Noble Houses
Merchant Houses
PC Clans
Templarate/AoD
The Guild/Rinthi elves
That is five groups that hold what ... about a dozen clans that all have their own goals, ambitions, enemies, etc.
I think there could be more city plots that cater to these groups that do not necessarily change things on the political scale.
I enjoy the social interaction of the game, not NECESSARILY the combat portion. Combat has code to determine winning or losing, social doesn't have any rolls to it. Its all in how you, the player, express yourself. I think this non-coded/non-supported section of things needs a boost.
I don't always want to play a minion and sometimes I want to affect the gameworld. You have no say in that in the city without a metric ton of work and danger and rivalry with people in the same city.
Like I said, lately I play cities to outside 1: 1, trying to something in the city done is so hard, and if a staff decides they don't like you or what you are bringing to the gameworld or if what you are doing isn't realistic despite other similar examples it is really easy for them to throw a spanner in everything.
Outdoors is overall way less staff reliant too, and that is relaxing. I could see a certain staffer targeting me with animations and clan manipulations and other stuff a while back and that is way more obvious when you are outdoors.
One of the less harmful examples is I have had half a dozen mounts killed by unavoidable instant death animations in the last few years. It is funny the first few times and it is just a mount but as an example of noticable stuff you get what I mean. You can at least see it. Not complaining about this fairly harmless example.
Most staff are excellent and I don't want to throw shade on the whole team.
I have confidence these issues will be in the past though. And I am sure the cities will fill out again soonish as confidence and trust returns.
In terms of what to do in the short term...Give AoD and Legion and other lifebound clans 10 year tours of duty sort of like the Romans. Don't make these positions lifebound. Aides too, with the understanding that they can no longer work with other nobles after this time of service ends.
Quote from: Inks on April 20, 2023, 09:02:31 PM
In terms of what to do in the short term...Give AoD and Legion and other lifebound clans 10 year tours of duty sort of like the Romans. Don't make these positions lifebound. Aides too, with the understanding that they can no longer work with other nobles after this time of service ends.
The Legions have been this way for about 10 RL years. As a Private you sign on for "Tours of Duty" (Verbatim) lasting anywhere from 4-8 years per tour. A life oath isn't for life, it's a 30 year commitment. Veterans retire and are typically Levy Elders, able to attend Levy training and events, and offer their experiences.
AoD (at least the newest version, particularly at war time) I think signed people on for contracts that renewed every year. If it isn't still that way, it should be, I agree. Life Oaths really shouldn't be for anything besides officer track stuff, and even then, I like that the Legions is 30 years, not 'until you are old and feeble'.
I can't speak for the Legion specifically, but I do know that clans that used to be lifesworn, had updated docs that said things akin to, "Only the highest levels of players will be lifesworn." I think they are trying to limit that because nobody liked it. I could be wrong, but I would check with your clan staff, might be that the documentation is outta date.
Was going to post in the Tuluk thread, but it's better here:
You'll find that the problem with Tuluk and the problem with Allanak are the same problem.
'I might be a playing a junior noble, but my plots are more important than yours'
This is also an issue with high ranking commoners, but much less frequently because nobody plays those long term.
And the like. Also the idea that Titled Lady had XYZ perks when she was flaunting her wealth at the arena, so you should as well. Even though you probably have no idea how much staff negotiating, political wrangling and taking hits she did to get them.
There is also the matter of getting away with small things and then thinking that that is now the norm, just because the game lets you do it doesn't mean you should necessarily be doing it on a regular basis.
Exploiting stuff just means people in the future will have to jump through more hoops to get their cool shit done, so instead of apping for a Kuraci Dealer they just play Generic Tribal #84
I haven't played in nearly three years. I had only one character and spent all of my time in cities. Maybe about a third of my time was spent in Allanak. About half my time in Luir's. And the rest in Red Storm.
Generally speaking, there just isn't much going on in cities. Not much to do, compared to out in the wilderness, as many people have said. I remember walking along, exploring some side streets and the various shops.. but not much to do, otherwise.
Cities are, ironically, extremely unsafe compared to the harsh wilderness. It's super easy to get stolen from and an apartment ransacked. I've contemplated coming back to this game a few times, but I decide not to, because there's literally nowhere safe to keep anything, aside from the bank and a clan compound. It's frustrating wanting to be out there and interact and be social, but then either a) no one's there, b) you get robbed c) people hate your character because of their race. Or a mul could just straight up try to kill you as you're minding your own business at the bar.
I didn't have a great experience being in a clan either, with my first supervisor being MIA for the vast majority of time, and when they were around, were always swamped with catching up with other things. The second supervisor I had was a psychopath. Killed two other clan members, then I happened to piss him off too for literally doing nothing wrong. Several assassination attempts later and my character is dead as well. In her apartment, no less.
I look back fondly on some nice and not-so-nice experiences I had, the various other characters I met, and a few exciting events. But I still have a bad taste in my mouth and don't think I want to go through that again.
Less about me, more about the topic:
I think the issue with cities is they are heavily dependent on community involvement, and actual gameplay is a mere afterthought. The overall experience can be fun and exciting when there's many players to interact with, but unfortunately, when the gameplay is other people and there are no other people, there's nothing to do.
But even if there were many other players in a city, there's a problem: all the rampant theft, murder, and arbitrary executions makes people not want to play. It makes them want to hole up somewhere safe, where they can't be killed, completely unable to do a goddamn thing about it. So even if we did have a large number of players attracted to cities, for whatever reasons, they would quickly get driven away again. As said, it's a player problem. But it's made possible by game design flaws.
We've already talked about making thievery harder. We've talked about making apartments safer and nohide zones. It's at least a good start, and not the end of the world for thieves, as I'm sure they can just run away if caught regardless. The idea isn't to nerf thievery into the the ground, making it impossible, but to disincentivize people from gathering less. Assassination attempts are also problematic, especially when the would-be assassin attacks a target in broad daylight, and there are absolutely zero repercussions for them.
With these old tired complaints cropping up again and again, I hope something will actually be done about them one day.
The next part of the problem is just making cities more attractive for people to come to. Have things to do there.
We could have unique trader NPCs: perhaps sometimes they are selling a very rare and unique item, or have a stock of some certain item that is abnormally cheap. On the flip side, we could have some traders looking for certain goods or commodities; they will pay handsomely for the items they request, for a limited time. These two simple ideas could help a number of people: crafters, who now may have access to some goods they would have to rely on PCs for; merchants, who like to buy low and sell high; grebbers/hunters, who now essentially have a NPC they can turn items into for a reward; thieves, who may want to steal from these merchant NPCs, or steal the desired items from others to then sell to them.
Someone also mentioned jobs to guard a certain area, or conversely, thieve from it.
You could have a bounty office where certain PCs or NPCs are listed. Essentially, hunting a unique NPC/PC criminal and bring back their head for a reward. Other merchants and nobles going to and fro, perhaps good targets to steal from, or they may hire you as temporary body guards. Rat/pest hunting. Sewer cleaning.
We could have some courier jobs, bringing a package from a sender to recipient, or written notes between noble/merchant houses. We could have some jobs as being a preacher, where you must go from street location to street location, preaching the virtues of the Highlord and collecting alms. Carpenters, Armorers, Clothiers, all looking for apprentices or unskilled helpers to aid with their work. Skirmishes between gangs.
Sort of a hybrid between city/wilderness gameplay: a job to patrol some roads nearby the cities to keep travelers safe. Or a job to transport some special goods from one city to another. Accepting these jobs might cause monsters to spawn.
There's a lot of ideas here, and yet, we need many more. We need to bring the cities to life. Make an incentive of being there, aside from other players, and make interaction with other players not so ridiculously lethal or annoying.
Good luck.
Cities seem good at the mo, it all comes and goes. Game on.
Quote from: Kestria on April 20, 2023, 06:10:45 AM
Stop allowing templars and nobles to be so frikken hostile toward people. I get that they SHOULD be..but I have seen several look at people that are fresh out creation and demand coins from them.
If you havent got a good balanced templar in the cities.. people avoid playing or going there because they do not want to be harrassed by someone that just wants to make their day hard and fine them for breathing, or not tying their laces.
Give templars a stipend from the city so that they can leave off dishing out stupid petty fines of 300 here and there to people that cannot afford it.
Templar and noble PC's should be able to be oppressive to the common folk, while actually providing opportunities for players to make coin, find some action, etc. All this while NOT just having people killed on a whim. Currently, we have some good ones in both roles imho. Able to be pompous and demanding, while giving out tasks that are hard, but not impossible to achieve. Definitely a factor to consider when choosing city play for me.
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on June 04, 2023, 10:17:56 PM
A lot of stuff
I would say, you should try it again, I've had an apartment on my last three or four PCs and so far never been stolen from or at least never been ransacked from. I think the folks who sit there breaking and entering all day wax and wane. Right now is definitely a wane period.
But because I just said that, there is probably someone who's going to grind the shit outta lockpicking to become the terror or apartment owners the known over.
Had some pretty good ones, one quit over staff bullshit and the other quit over IC bullshit as far as I know. But by all means, game on.
I have a hard time playing city roles. Something about being stuck in a place never sat well with me. I've also gotten bored in the past and wandered outside the gates to explore. Most of my pcs have died outside the walls, I think.
One thing could be more incentive for independent characters, ie. more places to sell/buy raw goods, get water of varying quality. etc. Helping those who go against the grain could mean fewer clanned pcs but more people killing wildlife. Once that wildlife is gone people are more likely to return to the cities. Poorer people are also more likely to join clans. Everyone wants that stipend to further bling out their character. More unique pieces of equipment could drive people across the Known to find them.
I'm just pulling things outta my ass at this point. I could be reaching but I think it could help.
I need my long-lived, useful, cooperative, bribe-offering PCs to stop getting killed behind closed doors by Templars who fail to find IC reasons for taking a bribe instead of taking offense. I also like to do my own thing and not be ordered around on pain of death just because I'm playing a capable PC.
I suggest the Templar role be changed to just focus on countering magical threats. Leave the militia to police commoners and encourage them to take bribes over punishment. See also what makes a good templar (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58910.0/).
Even if that happens though, I would still have no interest in virtual politics, a dystopian state with an extreme caste system, nor people plying their power into unenthusiastic sex. That's all too real for me, thanks.
I'd say having something of note taking place in the various parts of the city semi-regularly would be fun. (Events and plots in parts of the city that aren't the taverns or marketplaces.) Large portions of both cities feel off limits, and perhaps for good reason. But if so, I bet a lot of people would like to see why.
Even if there are larger plots that involve specific houses or clans, it would be fun to watch that bleed over into the general population who would not have much reason to be in those parts of town otherwise. (Perhaps this has been discussed previously in this thread as well as a million times within the GDB at large, and I'm just ignorant to that.)
I try to think of it like what makes cities thrive IRL? It seems like having more players spending time and money in different parts of town will generate more interest or ideas for how to utilize that in city game play.
Quote from: Agent_137 on June 06, 2023, 10:26:27 AM
I need my long-lived, useful, cooperative, bribe-offering PCs to stop getting killed behind closed doors by Templars who fail to find IC reasons for taking a bribe instead of taking offense. I also like to do my own thing and not be ordered around on pain of death just because I'm playing a capable PC.
I suggest the Templar role be changed to just focus on countering magical threats. Leave the militia to police commoners and encourage them to take bribes over punishment. See also what makes a good templar (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58910.0/).
Even if that happens though, I would still have no interest in virtual politics, a dystopian state with an extreme caste system, nor people plying their power into unenthusiastic sex. That's all too real for me, thanks.
This pretty much echoes how I feel about it, and I love the idea of Templars just being focused on countering magickal threats instead of being omnipresent headaches for Talia the Grebber and his fifty sid (or worse, certain "favors" because of being in the position to lean hard into extracting them).
Quote from: whengravityfails on June 06, 2023, 05:20:13 PM
This pretty much echoes how I feel about it, and I love the idea of Templars just being focused on countering magickal threats instead of being omnipresent headaches for Talia the Grebber and his fifty sid (or worse, certain "favors" because of being in the position to lean hard into extracting them).
That -would- solve the additional problem of the playerbase allegedly being too magical...
I think removing politics from the Templar role will neuter it into something I don't really like.
That being said: Less petty mean girls politicking would be nice in general. Just because you're bored, doesn't mean you need to needlessly antagonize random people.
QuoteI think removing politics from the Templar role will neuter it into something I don't really like.
I agree.
QuoteThat -would- solve the additional problem of the playerbase allegedly being too magical...
Not really. It would require a higher presence of magick to make the role even make sense, since they are city-bound. The gemmed, however, are the viable tool for what you're speaking of, where gemmed are routinely sent out to find the rogues. Using templars for the equivalent role makes real magickal threat to the city a necessity to explain their purpose. That's a transition of setting.
QuoteThat being said: Less petty mean girls politicking would be nice in general. Just because you're bored, doesn't mean you need to needlessly antagonize random people.
I can never tell what is meant by what kind of RP from templars because it can be so many different things, but in the sense of true pettiness...sometimes it's totally sensible, other times it's purely brought about by lack of things to politick -about-. So that leads to people just...making shit up.
Mostly, I think there just needs to be a realization that templars are already the death grip on the city aside from rare circumstances. They don't have to go out and involve themselves in every other person's plot to prove it. They don't need to exert power to get kudos points for being ruthless. They don't need to ever-present meddlers; to the contrary, they need to do their role of preserving -relative- order to the city while not stifling with it. It's a hard balance, but again, this is often something coming about from precious little to do because they've already stifled a lot of it, or because people are just not willing to take risks in the first place. So again, they end up having to create reasons to be involved in things.
I think reducing it to 'mean girls' is petty in itself.
Quote from: Armaddict on June 06, 2023, 11:25:14 PM
QuoteThat -would- solve the additional problem of the playerbase allegedly being too magical...
Not really. It would require a higher presence of magick to make the role even make sense, since they are city-bound. The gemmed, however, are the viable tool for what you're speaking of, where gemmed are routinely sent out to find the rogues. Using templars for the equivalent role makes real magickal threat to the city a necessity to explain their purpose. That's a transition of setting.
I'm thinking of something more thorough than just rogue gickers, at least as individuals. It wouldn't be about gickers as an actual threat: but a perceived threat "justifying" a templar hunt. The cities and especially their rulers have real reason to persecute rogue magick, don't you think?
Templars really turned to shit when the current Ministry system was added. Before that, (PC) Blue Robes were constantly jockeying for position relative to each other; they were still prone to petty Mean Girls shit and boneheaded play, but no templar was truly safe and able to just swing their dick around willynilly. [Examples of bad and narrow-minded Ministry played excised so as not offend sensibilities but I could name some doozies for every branch]. They're all supposed to stay in their lanes, where they're allowed to just run roughshod over anyone. It leads to rather one-dimensional characters with obvious agendas. When Templars were just Templars, they had to at least try and round out their skillsets and spheres of ability and were vulnerable to having their influence or glory poached by others.
Of course, this system only works when you can have two or more (ideally three) Templars in game competing with each other. That's been very hard to achieve for a few years now, even before losing half the playerbase.
Allanak political life needs a serious overhaul to make it more competitive within itself and more interesting to engage in. Hard to pull off without radically rewriting the setting and asking for a lot more oversight from Staff, though. I'm of the opinion that either Templars or Nobles have to go; there's not enough to actually do to keep both classes of characters engaged. If it were up to me I'd make Templars NPC only (showing up only when shit has seriously hit the fan to everyone's horror) and leave the day-to-day running of Allanak to the nobility. Close the AOD but let noble Houses sponsor their own crews of House troops who also have crimcode immunity, serving as guards and muscle at their noble patron's whims. Oash and Jal at least can both hire magickers, leaving the Allanaki PC population a player-resource against rogues. Staff would need to monitor the nobility so that NPC Templars can reward active and successful Houses with increased stipends or other rewards (not to mention give PCs the assistance they need to actually achieve anything tangible in game), as well as check those who become too successful and might conceivably threaten the Templarate's power (sorcerer nobles beware).
Anyway, that's just spitballing.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 07, 2023, 02:30:29 AM
Templars really turned to shit when the current Ministry system was added. Before that, (PC) Blue Robes were constantly jockeying for position relative to each other; they were still prone to petty Mean Girls shit and boneheaded play, but no templar was truly safe and able to just swing their dick around willynilly. [Examples of bad and narrow-minded Ministry played excised so as not offend sensibilities but I could name some doozies for every branch]. They're all supposed to stay in their lanes, where they're allowed to just run roughshod over anyone. It leads to rather one-dimensional characters with obvious agendas. When Templars were just Templars, they had to at least try and round out their skillsets and spheres of ability and were vulnerable to having their influence or glory poached by others.
Of course, this system only works when you can have two or more (ideally three) Templars in game competing with each other. That's been very hard to achieve for a few years now, even before losing half the playerbase.
Allanak political life needs a serious overhaul to make it more competitive within itself and more interesting to engage in. Hard to pull off without radically rewriting the setting and asking for a lot more oversight from Staff, though. I'm of the opinion that either Templars or Nobles have to go; there's not enough to actually do to keep both classes of characters engaged. If it were up to me I'd make Templars NPC only (showing up only when shit has seriously hit the fan to everyone's horror) and leave the day-to-day running of Allanak to the nobility. Close the AOD but let noble Houses sponsor their own crews of House troops who also have crimcode immunity, serving as guards and muscle at their noble patron's whims. Oash and Jal at least can both hire magickers, leaving the Allanaki PC population a player-resource against rogues. Staff would need to monitor the nobility so that NPC Templars can reward active and successful Houses with increased stipends or other rewards (not to mention give PCs the assistance they need to actually achieve anything tangible in game), as well as check those who become too successful and might conceivably threaten the Templarate's power (sorcerer nobles beware).
Anyway, that's just spitballing.
+1
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on June 05, 2023, 08:49:24 AM
Quote from: Kestria on April 20, 2023, 06:10:45 AM
Stop allowing templars and nobles to be so frikken hostile toward people. I get that they SHOULD be..but I have seen several look at people that are fresh out creation and demand coins from them.
If you havent got a good balanced templar in the cities.. people avoid playing or going there because they do not want to be harrassed by someone that just wants to make their day hard and fine them for breathing, or not tying their laces.
Give templars a stipend from the city so that they can leave off dishing out stupid petty fines of 300 here and there to people that cannot afford it.
Templar and noble PC's should be able to be oppressive to the common folk, while actually providing opportunities for players to make coin, find some action, etc. All this while NOT just having people killed on a whim. Currently, we have some good ones in both roles imho. Able to be pompous and demanding, while giving out tasks that are hard, but not impossible to achieve. Definitely a factor to consider when choosing city play for me.
I hate this view and I hate the people who enable it. The idea that "we have good ones" in templar roles says that the staff and policies and culture of this game never learns a dang thing. How many ways can we say it's the templar's stupid before rules are put in place that actually prevent the templars from ruining the game. There is literally a thread (this one) about cities not being played in. Why would people possibly want to not play in cities. One excellent comment about how cities are less safe to play in than the wilderness. Why? Because templars are so powerful. Thievery maybe secondarily, but only in cities can a templar whimsically ruin literally years of work on a whim.
The thing about this argument that I hate so so much is that while there might be good tempars
now all it takes is one to get bored and retired and the staff to have a very limited pool and select someone who shouldn't be in the role (that's happened how many times in the past few months along) and then there to be an exodus of people from cities.
This makes no sense because while templars are supposed to be tyrannical and all powerful the world is also supposed to be full of people and from a statistical standpoint, it makes no sense that all that tyranny is felt by players and not the npcs and vnpcs.
So whats the solution? It's obviously some rule changes, but god forbid this game put in place rules that make it actually less harsh anywhere.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 07, 2023, 02:30:29 AM
Templars really turned to shit when the current Ministry system was added. Before that, (PC) Blue Robes were constantly jockeying for position relative to each other; they were still prone to petty Mean Girls shit and boneheaded play, but no templar was truly safe and able to just swing their dick around willynilly. [Examples of bad and narrow-minded Ministry played excised so as not offend sensibilities but I could name some doozies for every branch]. They're all supposed to stay in their lanes, where they're allowed to just run roughshod over anyone. It leads to rather one-dimensional characters with obvious agendas. When Templars were just Templars, they had to at least try and round out their skillsets and spheres of ability and were vulnerable to having their influence or glory poached by others.
Of course, this system only works when you can have two or more (ideally three) Templars in game competing with each other. That's been very hard to achieve for a few years now, even before losing half the playerbase.
Allanak political life needs a serious overhaul to make it more competitive within itself and more interesting to engage in. Hard to pull off without radically rewriting the setting and asking for a lot more oversight from Staff, though. I'm of the opinion that either Templars or Nobles have to go; there's not enough to actually do to keep both classes of characters engaged. If it were up to me I'd make Templars NPC only (showing up only when shit has seriously hit the fan to everyone's horror) and leave the day-to-day running of Allanak to the nobility. Close the AOD but let noble Houses sponsor their own crews of House troops who also have crimcode immunity, serving as guards and muscle at their noble patron's whims. Oash and Jal at least can both hire magickers, leaving the Allanaki PC population a player-resource against rogues. Staff would need to monitor the nobility so that NPC Templars can reward active and successful Houses with increased stipends or other rewards (not to mention give PCs the assistance they need to actually achieve anything tangible in game), as well as check those who become too successful and might conceivably threaten the Templarate's power (sorcerer nobles beware).
Anyway, that's just spitballing.
Well Said. I agree with everything you said in here, and if I had to pick would remove the Templars and AOD, and go the route you suggested of Nobles having their own crews.
Quote from: Supified on June 07, 2023, 08:25:50 AM
I hate this view and I hate the people who enable it. The idea that "we have good ones" in templar roles says that the staff and policies and culture of this game never learns a dang thing. How many ways can we say it's the templar's stupid before rules are put in place that actually prevent the templars from ruining the game. There is literally a thread (this one) about cities not being played in. Why would people possibly want to not play in cities. One excellent comment about how cities are less safe to play in than the wilderness. Why? Because templars are so powerful. Thievery maybe secondarily, but only in cities can a templar whimsically ruin literally years of work on a whim.
The thing about this argument that I hate so so much is that while there might be good tempars now all it takes is one to get bored and retired and the staff to have a very limited pool and select someone who shouldn't be in the role (that's happened how many times in the past few months along) and then there to be an exodus of people from cities.
This makes no sense because while templars are supposed to be tyrannical and all powerful the world is also supposed to be full of people and from a statistical standpoint, it makes no sense that all that tyranny is felt by players and not the npcs and vnpcs.
So whats the solution? It's obviously some rule changes, but god forbid this game put in place rules that make it actually less harsh anywhere.
I'm going to echo this sentiment right here, because I agree with it in full. A good example is Tuluk's current iteration: terrible documentation, but good players in its templar roles. If a role is one asshole away from disaster, and when staff is unwilling to rectify that, the game's cities are going to empty out now and then; people don't want to be around these guys.
Are there NO authorities that a Templar has to appease (even if those authorities are things like the generation of commerce in the city, or whatever concept)? It seems to me driving off the workforce and trade should be heavily balanced and that there should be goals to the Templar role to bring people in while still laying on oppression. I'm a new player and actually don't know. But I assume Templars profit most by courting nobility and traders and keeping the commoners and slaves from rioting as it would generate the most profit for the city. There may be different ways to handle this of course sprinkled with some nice opportunities for exploitation. Im not saying give the commoners a vote or anything so democratic because clearly that's silly when they should be scary superbads. Templar Bob should be hunted by Templar Joe if Bob has caused a slave riot by cutting off the slaves water supply or whatver thing because Bob aint got no time for all these pesky slave outbursts. There may be NPCs or PCs that poke at this? Again, no idea.
Part of me thinks it's a shame there are two cities but I understand their concepts are intended to be very different and there have been experiments closing it that didn't work so I can't comment there.
I feel as though the focus on templars should be three things:
1. Protection of those within City - City Ministry
2. Increasing Trade - not extorting the merchant houses - Trade Ministry
3. Disrupting the above items for the Other City State and dealing with outside threats - War Ministry
If the templarate are not working towards those goals, what are the point of the different ministries. Trade ministry templar's should be doing everything they can to bring people INTO the city to do trade and commerce, while the war ministry keeps the roads and sands around the city safe for the travelers/merchants/refugees, and when you enter the city, City ministry should ensure you are safe, to a degree if you are an outsider.
It feels, and maybe this isnt true, like there is no direction for the templars, except do what you want until a staff run plot comes along.
More often than not, when I am in nak, it feels like I am part of the Stanford Prison Experiment, which is why I avoid it all together unless I need to join the byn.
Quote from: Supified on June 07, 2023, 08:25:50 AM
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on June 05, 2023, 08:49:24 AM
Quote from: Kestria on April 20, 2023, 06:10:45 AM
Stop allowing templars and nobles to be so frikken hostile toward people. I get that they SHOULD be..but I have seen several look at people that are fresh out creation and demand coins from them.
If you havent got a good balanced templar in the cities.. people avoid playing or going there because they do not want to be harrassed by someone that just wants to make their day hard and fine them for breathing, or not tying their laces.
Give templars a stipend from the city so that they can leave off dishing out stupid petty fines of 300 here and there to people that cannot afford it.
Templar and noble PC's should be able to be oppressive to the common folk, while actually providing opportunities for players to make coin, find some action, etc. All this while NOT just having people killed on a whim. Currently, we have some good ones in both roles imho. Able to be pompous and demanding, while giving out tasks that are hard, but not impossible to achieve. Definitely a factor to consider when choosing city play for me.
I hate this view and I hate the people who enable it. The idea that "we have good ones" in templar roles says that the staff and policies and culture of this game never learns a dang thing. How many ways can we say it's the templar's stupid before rules are put in place that actually prevent the templars from ruining the game. There is literally a thread (this one) about cities not being played in. Why would people possibly want to not play in cities. One excellent comment about how cities are less safe to play in than the wilderness. Why? Because templars are so powerful. Thievery maybe secondarily, but only in cities can a templar whimsically ruin literally years of work on a whim.
The thing about this argument that I hate so so much is that while there might be good tempars now all it takes is one to get bored and retired and the staff to have a very limited pool and select someone who shouldn't be in the role (that's happened how many times in the past few months along) and then there to be an exodus of people from cities.
This makes no sense because while templars are supposed to be tyrannical and all powerful the world is also supposed to be full of people and from a statistical standpoint, it makes no sense that all that tyranny is felt by players and not the npcs and vnpcs.
So whats the solution? It's obviously some rule changes, but god forbid this game put in place rules that make it actually less harsh anywhere.
Edited because I think my wording was poor and giving the wrong idea, so I am restating for clarity.
In keeping with the theme of the game, I believe PC Templar's should be, from an RP perspective, able to make a commoner FEEL oppressed, while in actuality, providing that PC with the means and ambition to achieve goals, make coin, feed themselves etc. If a Templar is simply finding active, successful PC's and demanding taxes or death, that imho, is NOT a 'good' one. Yes, let's figure out how to deal with that.
Outdated, but I remember when player clans were barely a fledgling. If you were found to have trade in the city outside the GMHs, you needed to be licensed. Licensed people were recorded and extorted to bring coin into the PC Templar's pockets.
HOWEVER, the Templars never knew how much the commoner traders were making, so they'd extort that entire month's worth of profits, or more, under pain of jail. Because the PLAYER of the commoner didn't want to have to sell 20 black silk braies just to make ends meet (and, by documentation, should have been focused on their 'specialty' anyway).
That has been exacerbated now that every PC is expected to have coin to fill a Templar's pockets, and the threat or actual execution of death is always looming. I suggest that while that COULD be thematic, its not entertaining, fun, or storytelling. We're all here to tell a story, and sometimes the abusive templar IS the story, but when backed up by staff animations it feels, as a player, like extending the animosity staff have for players into the game world.
Quote from: Krath on June 07, 2023, 12:46:57 PM
More often than not, when I am in nak, it feels like I am part of the Stanford Prison Experiment, which is why I avoid it all together unless I need to join the byn.
This, I think. Only, replace the unless part with what I've been saying about how I would be more than happy to come back to the city as like a noble or gmh merchant family member or something that was fun and essentially, not another prisoner, so to speak, borrowing from the analogy above. I have way too much exposure to shit from Nakki commoner life IRL to want to be that in what I'm looking for for escape from my day to day life in playing a different role. But ouch how on the head it is, the bolded above, for my feelings. Like, I literally did not know they could be summed up so neatly.
If you apply for any leadership role, or pursue one ig, you should accept that you are there to create plots and opportunities for rp for other people. It's not about you or your pc. You're a facilitator. That is your real purpose, especially Nobles and Templars. You should always be thinking "How can I involve more characters in this plot or create fun rp moments for the common pcs?" Order weapons and armor and clothes and spice, that creates a purpose for GMH pcs. Hire Bynners to go on crazy adventures for hard to find or new materials and not just for escorts to Luirs.
Also, the people of Allanak are already oppressed and have been for centuries. They've been tamed. I don't think most people enjoy attacking someone who's already submitted. Where's the fun in that?
These are all actually some good points here.
There are thousands and thousands of citizens living within a city. And so, why would nobles or templars feel the need to pick on one particular slave or commoner? I totally get that nobles and templars are the rare breed, and thus one should be walking on eggshells and treating them with utmost respect. The respect and deference always goes upwards. But unprovoked abuse and extortion (punching downward) on random Joe Schmoe doesn't make much sense.
Theoretically, it's possible you have a bad day, you decide to make the next person you see suffer and make their day hell. But you surely have seen dozens of other people before you get to an actual PC. Just the sheer statistical improbability of it all is what bothers me. Also if you want to analyze this numerically, just think about it. If you demand 300 coins from one person, there's hundreds of other people you can (and probably would) shake down like this. This easily would turn into tens of thousands of coins.
I don't think there's any value in random fines and extortion. It seems some people forget that templars DO answer to an authority.. that being the Sun King or the High Lord. And so one has to wonder, what are their goals and their values? Obviously, if you killed/drove everyone off, they would have no city to rule. And templars and nobles were chosen for a certain purpose. They should be fulfilling that purpose and working for overall betterment of the city or glory to their king. Some tangible purpose, aside from "I can do whatever I want."
The issue comes from this key issue:
Staff love when Templars/Nobles "stir the pot" and create drama like this. As players, we feel driven away from the city. As staff, they see it as an antagonist plot.
However, they also reinforce the behavior by rewarding it. And then months later ask why people keep saying "I dislike [city]". Is the answer "get rid of that one Templar" probably not. However, threatening to force store leadership that doesn't want to play around your plaything templars is not earning any trust points either.
Quote from: Riev on June 08, 2023, 10:37:25 AM
However, threatening to force store leadership that doesn't want to play around your plaything templars is not earning any trust points either.
If the above is happening, please file a staff complaint. That is unacceptable behavior. If you as a PC, do not want to interact with a templar/noble/any PC, you should be able to do so, and yes deal with the IC, NOT OOC, consequences. Telling something they are going to be force stored if they do not do something is ridiculous. If it happened because a player did not want to interact with a noble and/or templar, then I would say that qualifies as a very good reason why players SHOULD stay away from the cities.
See, the interesting thing about all of this discussion on templars and why they kill cities is...what's the alternative?
Remove templars from their position. Then you have nobles. Remove nobles from that position. You turn into what, merchant houses? Clans? Crime syndicates, businesses, coalitions...whatever it may be, you're going to end up with a power structure. That's what cities are. Power structures.
It all comes back to that need for control of players over their PCs, and people preferring the predictable, safer anarchy outside the cities, or settlement centers where the power is in place but represented only via predictable code rather than unpredictable pillars of that power structure; in essence, these discussions of 'fixes' for templars in cities are essentially just power vacuum creations where whatever fills in that power will be free to do the same thing. Again, that's the nature of the thing. I think this hyper-awareness of 'I don't like templars' may be accurate, but ultimately misplaced; most of us don't have too much issues with power struggles in the sands until <insert person> kills <insert person> via <method>, and we dislike <method>.
I think the root of this problem is hard-coded power, and in particular the effectiveness of that coded power, that makes it so that the average player and average pc cannot realistically hold a grudge against a power structure and actually hope to have any influence over it. I don't mean city-changing influence. I mean that for average joe commoner to have a realistic vendetta against a templar, they need to go to great lengths that most players of today just aren't comfortable with; you will take giant risks, you will sometimes die a miserable death, you will not be able to make the great showdown scene because crimcode protects them, etc.
Granted, I think this is sensible, but overdone. They should be difficult targets, they should be scary, but they should feel 'the fear' just as much as anyone else; they are in a different stratosphere of power and impact, but the general rule is that every caste, pc, player, whatever...they should all be playing the same die hard survival game, but in different arenas. Making upper portions of the power structure more vulnerable to impacts from below, whether violence, economic, or political, is probably the best approach rather than trying to make huge changes to how the whole system works.
Quote from: Armaddict on June 08, 2023, 03:25:04 PM
See, the interesting thing about all of this discussion on templars and why they kill cities is...what's the alternative?
It's not just templars themselves, it's the rules and bad apples.
1) grade a player's performance and if they do a bad job abusing their role, remove some karma.
2) stricter rules or more clear guidelines on playing a power role. immediate executions for feeling slighted or small crimes? bad. random fines? bad. picking on new players/characters? bad. killing off your own clan members because vague reasons? bad.
But it's not just templars and nobles. It's stealing and sneaking made too easy in all places, and there's a complete lack of activities to do in a city aside from interacting with other players.
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on June 08, 2023, 07:41:55 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on June 08, 2023, 03:25:04 PM
See, the interesting thing about all of this discussion on templars and why they kill cities is...what's the alternative?
It's not just templars themselves, it's the rules and bad apples.
1) grade a player's performance and if they do a bad job abusing their role, remove some karma.
2) stricter rules or more clear guidelines on playing a power role. immediate executions for feeling slighted or small crimes? bad. random fines? bad. picking on new players/characters? bad. killing off your own clan members because vague reasons? bad.
But it's not just templars and nobles. It's stealing and sneaking made too easy in all places, and there's a complete lack of activities to do in a city aside from interacting with other players.
...this is already the case. Generally speaking, if you think this is happening to some great degree, you're not really examining the environs very well, you're just seeing how it impacted you and assuming one of the above happened.
Quote from: Armaddict on June 08, 2023, 03:25:04 PM
See, the interesting thing about all of this discussion on templars and why they kill cities is...what's the alternative?
Maybe staff could come down on the people who chase off others and tell them to cut it out. They could have their superiors stop taking their side. They could even say enough is enough sooner rather than later and tell them to play grebbers like the rest of us if they fuck up one too many times.
I think if the Templar had a 3-6 month probationary period.
You get at least three months to prove yourself. If you're crap before then, you're gone at the 3-month review.
If not, you'll get analyzed at the 6 month mark.
Shoot, this could carry on every 3 months if we really wanted.
I don't honestly think templars need any more pressure on them than they have. It's already a near impossible role to play to anyone's satisfaction.
Staffing's probably similar (sorry staff) and this would be horrible on them. Imagine being a templar player and pouring your heart into it but then getting force-stored. Even if it was deserved, we'd lose players that way.
And again, templars are near-impossible to play well enough that they don't get some level of complaints. It just kind of comes with the territory.
Templars get so many applicants that I, frankly, just flat-out don't see that happening. You don't wanna? Ten other people applied, have at.
They actually don't, which is part of the reason for their varying quality. It's a hard role only a few players have really pulled off, and staff in good conscience can't just keep giving those players the role.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 10, 2023, 06:40:41 PM
They actually don't, which is part of the reason for their varying quality. It's a hard role only a few players have really pulled off, and staff in good conscience can't just keep giving those players the role.
While nobles have considerable power in both cities, Allanaki templars in particular have a level of power and impunity that no one should consider giving PCs if they aren't constantly monitored- like staff characters should be. It'd make a lot more sense if nobles could reliably (but NOT perfectly) count on immediate NPC templar assistance to immediately restore order whenever they had to. Failure to use this power responsibly would have massive repercussions for their houses, not just themselves.
Yeah. I didn't want to repeat myself but I honestly don't think Templars should be a player role. They should be staff only and only animated to intervene decisively against uppity PCs (either noble, magick, or independent). Templars have so much authority in such a comparatively tiny gamespace that their missteps and shortcomings are magnified out of proportion.
I'd say that removing Allanaki templars may be for the best. Tuluki templars less so- there's at least one PC templar who's absolutely great, and the nature of Tuluk means abuse of power is much less likely without swift correction.
If anything, starting with Allanak could be guidance for how the system would work, assuming there is a PC templar there right now.
In my opinion,
The templar role is primarily there to enforce the theme of Zalanthas. They have absolute authority in the citystates and are meant to maintain the theme therein. The role itself is meant to guide and push against the citizens, thieves, merchants, and foreign influences. They are basically the main antagonist for most characters.
From the main page:
It is a world where sorcerer-kings and their ruthless servants, the Templarate, govern the two main cities, Allanak and Tuluk. Any magick not granted by the Kings is feared and hated, and where the punishment of such a curse might be death. In this harsh realm, life is a constant struggle, and death may occur over a drink of precious water.
The problem is that it is very hard to play against an antagonist that has unlimited resources, npcs, and magickal abilities. And for the players of Templars, it's hard to be a good "badguy", because the nature of death in the Diku system. It's just a blip and it's over for the player.
I think the templar role is necessary for maintaining the theme of the game, much like a raider in the sands is.
Quote from: Armaddict on June 08, 2023, 08:04:48 PM
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on June 08, 2023, 07:41:55 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on June 08, 2023, 03:25:04 PM
See, the interesting thing about all of this discussion on templars and why they kill cities is...what's the alternative?
It's not just templars themselves, it's the rules and bad apples.
1) grade a player's performance and if they do a bad job abusing their role, remove some karma.
2) stricter rules or more clear guidelines on playing a power role. immediate executions for feeling slighted or small crimes? bad. random fines? bad. picking on new players/characters? bad. killing off your own clan members because vague reasons? bad.
But it's not just templars and nobles. It's stealing and sneaking made too easy in all places, and there's a complete lack of activities to do in a city aside from interacting with other players.
...this is already the case. Generally speaking, if you think this is happening to some great degree, you're not really examining the environs very well, you're just seeing how it impacted you and assuming one of the above happened.
Well that's where you're wrong, because it's not like I've personally been Templar'd.
On the contrary, I just read what other people are saying, I listen and think about it, and I come to the conclusion: something is wrong.
There's a lot of anecdotal evidence that goes both ways, and while I'm sure there are many instances of Templars playing the role properly, staff breathing down their neck constantly, and a feeling of no one ever being satisfied... The fact that there are more than a handful of people who claim there is/was abuse, and an even larger number of people disillusioned by the whole system, it speaks volumes.
Ideally there already are systems in place to prevent abuse, but apparently either they aren't rigorous enough, and/or some people may be given one too many chances?
I think diagnosis is wrong. People do not like their characters to face stress. The current obvious form of stress in cities are templars, thats why they are on spotlight.
If I make a character that aims to terrorize merchants and successfully deliver it, then they will complain about that.
If someone takes on a mission to eradicate mages, and starts succeeding it, mages will complain and find whatever reason they need. You can justify anything after all.
This thread has been going on for a while and my sentiment already expressed, but my two cents:
I like templars. I like the theme, and I like to be afraid of these tyrannical jerks, or trailing in their subserviently footsteps for the advantages that might bring. They are the element of danger within the cities, instead of being poisoned by a scorpion or ganked by a stack of spiders or whatever.
I think cities could use a few more rewarding things to grind other than joining the Byn to spar, being a thief etc or dung mining etc. More things with a progression, things to forage, little quests that can be done etc. I'm kinda a noob, but I would hardly know how to survive (let alone thrive) without leaving the gates for grebbing.
Quote from: najdorf on June 11, 2023, 06:31:56 AM
I think diagnosis is wrong. People do not like their characters to face stress. The current obvious form of stress in cities are templars, thats why they are on spotlight.
If I make a character that aims to terrorize merchants and successfully deliver it, then they will complain about that.
If someone takes on a mission to eradicate mages, and starts succeeding it, mages will complain and find whatever reason they need. You can justify anything after all.
This is pretty much what I was getting at with the mention of character control issues. We all have 'em, just some people handle it better than others.
It's actually pretty easy to understand why this is, and will continue to be an issue. By design, across the entire game, it happens.
Templar A decides to use the jail as a meeting cell against Criminal/Commoner/Hunter B because he intends to coerce them into providing some service. Note here, this is actually pretty much standard-operation templar method to provide and include people into content. However, player of B has bad experiences with templars in the past, so they are immediately on edge here. Player of A has not yet fucked up, has not yet gone against anything, and is actually doing what good templars do, roping people into plots and providing 'shit to do'. However, B grinds their gears in that meeting cell, is rebellious, and basically through roleplay seals their own demise. They blame A. A had no real recourse other than just pretending the whole thing didn't happen, which...is a pretty huge ask in a roleplaying game. A has now given B another bad experience...but it's not their fault in the slightest.
Twisting on that, Templar A is minding their own business when a few people over an hour reach their mind to talk about character B and some supposed slight, crime, or statement is made. A goes to bring in B and find out wtf is up. He either lets B go, tries to recruit B in same as former scenario, or kills B. If he lets B go, players of C, D, E, and F are all pissed off that this person they thought they had a dead ringer for elimination for somehow survived an ordeal with a templar that should have been inexcusable. If he tries to recruit B, B sees the whole thing as a scam to remove their character agency. A kills B, B is pissed off at the whole thing, C, D, E, and F are all happy, and we end up where we are.
It's not really that hard to wrap your head around. It -is- hard to drop a grudge.
QuoteI think cities could use a few more rewarding things to grind other than joining the Byn to spar, being a thief etc or dung mining etc. More things with a progression, things to forage, little quests that can be done etc. I'm kinda a noob, but I would hardly know how to survive (let alone thrive) without leaving the gates for grebbing.
This is the big deal. As noted earlier, the city is supposed to be the oasis, not the other way around; the city is life. Look at what led to cities in real life, historically, and that's what cities provide here when the wilderness/world politics are tuned correctly. It offers stability, trade, other means of work, safety, security, and culture. Once again, with the wilds being 'predictable' to veterans of the game, it is generally safer to pit yourself against predictable npc's than the politics/randomness of other players.
The city, when filled with players, does offer all those things. Right down to people who sell scrab meat for cheaper than the shop does, so that you can get relationships with hunters if you're not in a clan, and where hunters can sell to shops for good prices if everyone else seems to be in a clan. There are not enough clans. There are not enough people focused on non-skill-based progression (hurray for visible skills, the worst thing to happen to Armageddon as far as player mentality). There are not enough mini-plots (this ties in with not enough clans).
There is just not enough actual activity aside from 'business as usual' merchanting, hunting, grebbing, and when cities are under-played, the 'business as usual' grinds to a halt for PC's, resulting in no activity at all.
the only interesting secrets for players to uncover in cities are largely only distributed to sponsored roles (i.e. Templars and Nobles). there is very little incentive for spade type players to play long term in cities. the only reason I would play a Noble or Templar aside to meet the leadership karma criterion is because there are things that a player can most consistently learn about the game while playing a Templar or Noble. Certain gemmed or aides could also learn some of those secrets, but not all of them and not with anywhere close to the same consistency as the sponsored roles they are servants to. My wilderness map spreadsheet isn't complete, so I'd rather splat 50 day 0 toons with pregen descriptions to map the thornlands than play most city characters. I think splatting day 0 characters is probably the most efficient way to map extremely dangerous locations when optimizing for earth time spent.
A lot of people are talking about templars being removed, which isn't something I'm seeing a lot of people even advocating for. Rules changes and breaking ideas like permdeath and no retcon were mentioned, but not taking them out. Though I do think maybe PC militia and no PC templar is a reasonable idea.
Here's the thing, cities don't just clear out cause no one wants to play around Templars, No, people leave the game entirely. This is not a thing that Arm can tolerate and furthermore, the people left, well of course they're advocating status quo, as are many in this post.
Quote from: Supified on June 12, 2023, 09:06:27 AM
A lot of people are talking about templars being removed, which isn't something I'm seeing a lot of people even advocating for.
Heh. First time on the GDB? One person with a bad idea makes a suggestion, entire thread becomes about how that isn't a good idea.
Entice me to play in the city by facilitating my gameplay and ideas.
fa·cil·i·tate
verb
verb: facilitate; 3rd person present: facilitates; past tense: facilitated; past participle: facilitated; gerund or present participle: facilitating
make (an action or process) easy or easier.
If I am engaged in a plot line, or something I want my character to engage in, staff and leadership could facilitate my gameplay better.
Example:
My character's name is Gavin. I want to RP being a Tuluki Arena Fighter. Not for blood and spray, but for art and skill. He wants to be a WWE Professional Wrestler and put on shows. To do so, he needs to learn to fight, and how to wrestle the toughest of opponents. He joins the Byn. The Byn facilitates his progression towards fighting other people, learning to subdue/wrestle, etc.
Later, he is enticed to work for House Salarr, because of the pay and promise of increased access to tougher opponents than simple Byn Runners. He spends some time as a fighting Hunter, but is stationed in Allanak. Longing for Tuluk, he gets a transfer to Tuluk and is allowed to leave the House after a term of service. Salarr facilitated some level of roleplay.
In Tuluk, wanting to be an Arena fighter, he becomes a partisan to a Chosen Lord Tenneshi (formerly Negean) in exchange for sponsorship into being an arena fighter. Gavin focuses on "Close Quarters Combat" while in this role, learning how to use knife weapons (so he can become Solidus Snake). House Tenneshi has facilitated his goals while using him to work on their own.
In working up his skills with knife weapons, his player requests some 'custom order' knife weapons from Salarr. Staff get wind that he branched knife weapons, sees that he did it using NPC Critters, and temp-bans him from the game.
This was my story of how the cities facilitated my gameplay, but staff was able to stymie it immediately without conversation or talk. PC was stored shortly thereafter. (Yes, the method he was using was twinky as fuck, but to this point after 3 years in the Byn, and time in Salarr, there were no PCs he could train with)
There needs to be more types of venues in Allanak, restaurants (maybe pc ownable?) or something, to go to besides a tavern. Maybe a fighter's pit(Salarr)/gambling+entertainment(Kurac)/dining(Kadius) GMH collab venue with a visible VIP Noble section (where Commoners can see but not hear them). It could replace the Arboretum.
Quote from: Classclown on June 12, 2023, 09:35:26 AM
There needs to be more types of venues in Allanak, restaurants (maybe pc ownable?) or something, to go to besides a tavern. Maybe a fighter's pit(Salarr)/gambling+entertainment(Kurac)/dining(Kadius) GMH collab venue with a visible VIP Noble section (where Commoners can see but not hear them). It could replace the Arboretum.
If the MMH Terash can have the Atrium, why cant the GMH Kadius own THE place to eat in all the city?
Nenyuk owns the gladiator and gaj but yeah... Good luck getting that plot past a templar.
Salarr owned archery range with a small entrance fee, and inside shitty quality training arrows etc on sale for reasonable prices.
Personally I'd be all for pc templars not being a thing anymore but that is very unlikely to happen because theyre kinda sorta integral to sorc-templar-psionicist game balance as well as a dark sun theme thing.
Assertions that people cannot handle templars really doesn't help the conversation. Oftentimes it is because templar players get incredibly overbearing as antagonists, especially situations where they've already carved or claimed a victory; theres a certain point any antagonist character needs to really adopt if they want to carry about actual presence without being something you oocly loathe to encounter. Alot of arm antags suffer from the same problem that if you give the role to the wrong person they can just kill play in an area. Antags need to give the people they're antagonizing some breathing room, keep mystique, reserve and throw around their weight at opportune moments etc. More often than not templars just kind of mill around until they get bored and harass a target until it becomes oocly grating, and eventually culminates in death. Or they're a dude who slings magicks around because its cool, theyre a skillset. I've seen alot of good, bad, outright annoying and oocly disrespectful templar play and its really painful to see them dish out shitty deaths when they hold all the power in a scene they've won in and its just them clocking in the hours while they end the life of some especially long lived character.
And then staff side with the templars under pretenses of like "you arent owed a good scene when you die", when more often than not its the LEAST any player could ask for. And then that player quits the game, and staff wonder why people quit the game. I've seen so many low effort templar kills that just inspired people to quit on the spot.
Templars really only work, I think, if cities are full of PCs. If there are other templars. If there are nobles. If there is a full militia, and criminals.
Tuluk was supposed to give Allanak something to fight against, but what it did instead was take away the PCs that gave templars something to do (for the purpose of this conversation only; no hate being directed at anyone up there enjoying roleplay).
If Tuluk is Allanak's foil (and vice versa) there needs to be the ability to have daily struggle, conflict, and day-to-day life rp about that conflict in volume enough to replace or exceed the roleplay volume in those categories that having actual pcs in Allanak produced.
And I actually agree after a lot of thought with the comment that said ministries were a bad idea, as well, but only in hindsight and if cities are not full.
Templars, even well-played ones, are MUCH more oppressive if there are aren't enough of them for them to be fighting one another. If there aren't
nobles to plot with or against. If there aren't active criminals running around. Without a lot of things to do (hence ministries being a bad idea in hindsight) and a lot of PCs to interact with.
Templar theme by nature is oppressive, and that's okay. However if there are few PCs in the city and nothing for templars to do, that oppressive nature becomes naturally focused on a very small amount of the playerbase. Players that didn't particularly 'like' the oppressive theme but enjoyed city play and could generally go characters without having their lives changed by a templar PC might now have every PC's life touched, and just decide to leave the city completely. Players that enjoyed the oppressive theme or being criminals and eventually losing (like myself) will get tired of it being every time on every PC in a city without anyone else to soak up the oppression - either playing careful PCs that don't interact as much or just not playing in cities.
Suggested solution:
Role call some templars with the express purpose of creating plots alongside staff for city-PCs and building up roleplay that is more collaborative in nature. Nudge templars to stop bothering with crimes and oppression themselves and start requiring it to be handled through other PCs. When a templar does want a bribe, go for 50 sid not 50,000. Get active templars back into Allanak who are focused on making plots for the PCs and not for the templars - and don't let templar PCs be an even number. They should always be at strife with one another and by extension the plots they build for PCs should give those PCs conflict with one another to overcome.
Quote from: LidlessEye on June 12, 2023, 10:05:32 AM
Salarr owned archery range with a small entrance fee, and inside shitty quality training arrows etc on sale for reasonable prices.
This would be fun.
My opinion might have changed over the months but don't think there is a problem with templars in particular.
Basically any sponsored role that has nothing better to do than to make a normal player's life miserable will make playing in any area difficult.
It is just templars have it easier than most other sponsored roles to fuck someone over with half an excuse so its easier to notice within cities. Additionally, over the years its felt like templars offer very little in terms of protection against the things player hate the most like petty theft and murder, making them annoyances and often fairly useless when someone skilled is really after you.
I think that sponsored roles/clans need to have greater goals and problems so that their time and resources aren't spent on...oh lets say...trying to assassinate some indie female elven laborer in a tiny redstorm apartment. :'( However this has not been easy to accomplish over the years, not sure what the state of that is in the current environment.
I think what further makes the problem worse is that many changes made to the game really favor classes like raider or mages more than they do crafting classes. You don't really need peraine to kill a mercantile class after all, this promotes playing classes that just survive much better outside of cities. I want to be careful with my words here because I do love many of the changes from a content perspective but at the same time i see how it would skew the game to people playing more raiders/mages.
Quote from: Supified on June 12, 2023, 09:06:27 AMHere's the thing, cities don't just clear out cause no one wants to play around Templars, No, people leave the game entirely. This is not a thing that Arm can tolerate and furthermore, the people left, well of course they're advocating status quo, as are many in this post.
You have hit the nail on the head.
I would simplify the groups of people here into roughly two groups: there are those who like the game the way it is, and there are those who do not.
Now of course, those who like the game the way it is enjoy their time here and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts they play a lot and frequent the forums often. When asked what we could do to attract more people to the cities, they go, "What do you mean? The cities are perfectly fine!"
Then there's the second group of players who... let's just say, in the best of scenarios, they still play and frequent the forums, but they prefer the wilderness and would rather avoid city politics. And then there's a massive silent majority of people who have simply left the game.
Obviously, the majority of people
here presently think things are fine, as.. they are here, and active on the forums. But conversely, those who do not think things are fine could have simply left and be gone for good. Compared to all the people who once played Armageddon but have left, the amount of people who still play here today is
tiny. And yet, the fact that those who think the game is fine are just about the only ones left means that their voice is the loudest.
This is what we call a survivorship bias (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9WFpVsRtQg).
If the goal of this thread is to brain storm and think of ways for the city to be more attractive, the staff here should be listening to those disenfranchised folk who bring up concerns and even offer constructive suggestions. It does no good to be listening to negative arguments and rebuttals of those who think the game is fine as it is - those who say the other players are just too soft or can't handle stress - because they're either part of the problem or complacent with it.
The people who you want to attract back to the cities cannot be forced into them, nor even forced to log in. If people on these forums keep arguing, downplaying, and belittling those who bring up valid criticism, the legitimate complaints get drowned out, the staff get the false reassurance that everything is fine, and nothing changes. And that means still hardly anyone will want to play in cities.
I don't mean offense to those who love Armageddon and still enjoy the game. But please, take the criticism it gets
seriously.
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on June 18, 2023, 02:41:10 PM
stuff
(https://media.tenor.com/KBxgqJSpIA4AAAAM/spider-song.gif)
What is the point about asking what could change to do a thing if nothing is going to change?
Edit to add: Which is to say I very much agree with the points made in the quote, and +1 is redundant and pointless, so I address the question to anyone reading the original post to keep that in mind when they meet responses to the original question with basically ignoring the feedback asked for or dismissing people for having it.
A couple of years ago, we had a thread aimed at gathering insights from players who moved on from the game. Quite a number returned to participate and we compiled the feedback. Can't find that spreadsheet right now, but from what I recall, Templars/City Play didn't really stand out as a deal-breaker; if it was mentioned, it was more of a side note. Sure, there might be a certain demographic that is so put off by city play that they bail and never look back, but let's remember - our game has its own flavor and style, and it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
I'm not brushing off the concerns raised here; we are listening, taking note and having our own discussions. I just wanted to tackle the notion that "people have left due to Templars, and hence aren't here to voice their disdain for Templars," and question whether catering to this segment of the player base should be a priority.
Personally, I am more interested in feedback from players who have moved to play out of cities rather than bailing on the whole game due to this specific issue. And when it comes to those who left the game, or newbies who didn't hang around, I'm keener on understanding reasons outside of theme dislike, like tackling the learning curve, time constraints, the grind and so on.
Quote from: Usiku on June 18, 2023, 04:12:19 PM
A couple of years ago, we had a thread aimed at gathering insights from players who moved on from the game. Quite a number returned to participate and we compiled the feedback. Can't find that spreadsheet right now, but from what I recall, Templars/City Play didn't really stand out as a deal-breaker; if it was mentioned, it was more of a side note. Sure, there might be a certain demographic that is so put off by city play that they bail and never look back, but let's remember - our game has its own flavor and style, and it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
I'm not brushing off the concerns raised here; we are listening, taking note and having our own discussions. I just wanted to tackle the notion that "people have left due to Templars, and hence aren't here to voice their disdain for Templars," and question whether catering to this segment of the player base should be a priority.
Personally, I am more interested in feedback from players who have moved to play out of cities rather than bailing on the whole game due to this specific issue. And when it comes to those who left the game, or newbies who didn't hang around, I'm keener on understanding reasons outside of theme dislike, like tackling the learning curve, time constraints, the grind and so on.
That's great!
I just hope you don't have tunnel vision and are not only seeing stuff regarding Templars.
Other topics have been brought up repeatedly: in particular, a lack of things to do as compared to the wilderness, and 2) problems with theft/apartments being unsafe.
The first part is rather self-explanatory. If you have more opportunities for people to skill up in cities, more opportunities to gain wealth, people will find those activities rewarding and worth the risk of running into templars and thieves. The probability of simply bumping into another player increases a lot, and then bam, there you go, here is that player on player interaction we so crave.
The second part seems contested with anecdotal evidence, but either way I'm standing firmly by my beliefs. If you want nobles to hang out at bars and mingle with other players more often, there simply has to be better protection from thieves and assassins. If you want players in general to hang out at bars more, if you don't want them rage quitting from dying in their apartments for the umpteenth time, you have to fix the problem of apartments being death traps.
Tweaking the learning curve and grind can only do so much when players get invested into their characters, only to have it snatched away by someone who wants to make another character's life miserable for flimsy reasons.
Stealth is city invulnerability and there are no defenses in ArmageddonMUD that handle it outside of some very specific and rare roles.
It either needs to be toned down or there need to be ways to illuminate hiding locations or search a room on demand to expose those hiding in it.
Quote from: Windstorm on June 27, 2023, 12:16:16 AM
Stealth is city invulnerability and there are no defenses in ArmageddonMUD that handle it outside of some very specific and rare roles.
It either needs to be toned down or there need to be ways to illuminate hiding locations or search a room on demand to expose those hiding in it.
Player solvable. Create thief-hunters for hire. Infiltrators and miscreants who specialize in either guarding locations or people, or tracking down and dealing with thieves.
It's even in the helpfiles that sometimes people white hat these skillsets.
Quote from: Miradus on June 27, 2023, 10:22:47 AM
Quote from: Windstorm on June 27, 2023, 12:16:16 AM
Stealth is city invulnerability and there are no defenses in ArmageddonMUD that handle it outside of some very specific and rare roles.
It either needs to be toned down or there need to be ways to illuminate hiding locations or search a room on demand to expose those hiding in it.
Player solvable. Create thief-hunters for hire. Infiltrators and miscreants who specialize in either guarding locations or people, or tracking down and dealing with thieves.
It's even in the helpfiles that sometimes people white hat these skillsets.
There are also items that can be used to help root out people hiding.
That said? Yes. Being hidden IS very powerful, but more skillsets get (master) scan these days.
Let's not pretend like master scan can spot an infiltrator or miacreant.
It's not 100% if they're also master level. But it shouldn't be 1 for 1 success to attempt.
Quote from: Doublepalli on June 27, 2023, 01:56:57 PM
Let's not pretend like master scan can spot an infiltrator or miacreant.
My Miscreant used to get picked up on by a lot of people. I'd catch the "Watch" command on me all the time.
Yes, you have to kind of spam watch shadow but it certainly can catch Infils and Miscreants. Just likely not before they do "the things"
Quote from: Doublepalli on June 27, 2023, 01:56:57 PM
Let's not pretend like master scan can spot an infiltrator or miacreant.
It absolutely can unless you used wisdom for your dump stat.
The equation is scan skill and wisdom versus hide skill and agility, I believe.
Sneaking up on a gick elf with scan who prioritized wisdom is a huge risk.
Gambling NPCs, gaming NPC's or games in general. Rotating, or new artwork. Random secret rooms.
More things to find with forage artifact that aren't A) Straight crap, B) obvious magickally connected items. NPC's living lives inside. Empty apartments being squatted in, etc. Randomized items in backpacks or containers for NPCs upon rebooting, so they can have something interesting for criminals.
A travelling wagon: It sells odd stuff from the last place it visited. You can rent a private room aboard it for X coin. When it reloads in a different city, you're in a different city, and you have to do the whole thing over again. One room only.
Not looking like the sole weirdo in the entire city that tracks people inside the walls by looking at their tracks on a incredibly trafficked road.
Maybe a whole new help file for city "unlawful" types about what constitutes twinkery, and alternatives to avoiding falling into the trap of becoming a twink.
Ideas for the file:
Don't use "sneak" EVERYWHERE from the moment you log in til the moment you log out. Get into your character. When would he find it the most useful to him, to try sneaking? Once he's confident that he's good at it, when would it be most practical to use the skill? Example: Look north. There's a templar AND two soldiers 2 rooms away? Stop sneaking. If you get caught, they might want to know what you're about to steal, or why you're hiding from them. Return to your sneaking when you're safely past them.
If you're hiding in the Gaj and someone notices that you're there, and points you out, don't just keep hiding and pretending it didn't happen. Toss out an emote that would make sense for the scene, allow yourself to either be unhidden, or vacate the premises.
If you want to improve your listen/scan skills, don't drop your PC off in the Gaj and ignore the game for the next two hours. There are already plenty of NPCs that do that. Your character is a player character, you're expected to actually be paying attention and able to react/respond for most of the time you're logged in. If you have other things to do offline, then log out.
Once you've become proficient with lockpicking and have good locks, don't just break into every single apartment in the building and leave the doors open. Relock some of them. Give people a reason to want to rent there in the first place. No one wants to rent in a place where the doors are always wide open. What good is breaking into a vacant apartment with nothing worth stealing in it? Pace yourself. And be more selective on which apartments you want to practice on. Try practicing on the ones you know are vacant. Then when you're good at it, you can try the rented ones, grab an item or three tops, then try again a few RL days later. By that time, you'll be able to lock back up when you leave. Great way for a TRUE sneaky type - you could probably get stinkin filthy rich and they'll never even notice that anything's missing.
...and so on. So not just "do" and "don't." But rather, offering ideas of HOW to play these types of characters, that don't involve twinking, but still allow you to improve your skills.
Feel free to submit a draft. :-*
Quote from: Lizzie on June 28, 2023, 08:39:00 AM
If you want to improve your listen/scan skills, don't drop your PC off in the Gaj and ignore the game for the next two hours. There are already plenty of NPCs that do that. Your character is a player character, you're expected to actually be paying attention and able to react/respond for most of the time you're logged in. If you have other things to do offline, then log out.
Disrespectfully (nobody ever starts THAT way!), no.
There is nothing that says I can't be an NPC for an hour while I'm watching Netflix, waiting to see if someone comes by or says something worth hearing.
Listen requires people talking either at a table in the same room, or in a room adjacent to you. Unless there are more NPCs with talk (not shout) scripts than I remember, there are certain things that have to be done.
You (royal you) can't expect everyone to simultaneously "do things your character would do", while also bemoaning that players 'don't take risks'. Like saying you should be out there stirring shit up and screwing with people, while also telling them "we aren't ready to support that idea until you have more of a place in society. Check back in a couple RL months".
You want people to play more in cities? Don't tell them they can't sit in the taverns, designed to overhear and listen in on people*.
*- That said? The next person that OOC's "AFK-ish" as soon as I enter, as if to tell me "I see you, I don't want to play with you" is getting mon disintegrated.
This has got super off topic. Sounds like a bunch of punks whining about sneakies when as far as I can tell that has very little to do with the actual reason sometimes the city gets quiet. It usually is how murderous are the current leader pcs.
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 16, 2023, 12:06:28 AM
It's also pretty idiotic that someone with a high enough hide can just... Go invisible in a tiny room with no furnishings. Like, is this guy hidden under my sleeping mat? Maybe behind a large bag? Hallways should be equally as hard to hide in, as well. It's not like crowds of people are hanging out in the halls or moving in and out of the building in a large enough crowd to warrant someone somehow remaining completely and utterly undetected.
Quote from: Dresan on February 15, 2023, 01:26:05 PM
Also I am also almost convinced that perhaps apartments should be no hide rooms (but allow sneak).
Actually this has been a recurring topic in this thread. That's from one page, mind. I'm not going to scour the whole thing.
Quote from: Inks on June 28, 2023, 03:14:16 PM
This has got super off topic. Sounds like a bunch of punks whining about sneakies when as far as I can tell that has very little to do with the actual reason sometimes the city gets quiet. It usually is how murderous are the current leader pcs.
You can have your opinion. You can't call people who voice concerns "a bunch of punks whining" because you disagree wit their thoughts on why the cities are quiet.
"as far as you can tell" doesn't mean you're spitting truths. Not agreeing with what people say doesn't mean its off topic, and its not your call to make. Sit down.
Stealth is definitely super overpowered but there's no easy fixes. The reason this is a problem for cities, is that you literally cannot go anywhere without fear that someone is invisible in the room with you listening or holding a knife waiting to kill you. This is super unrealistic. Cities are...shelter...and if that shelter is more dangerous than the world outside it, it's no surprise people don't want to linger there.
In the past, 'stealth' wasn't very meta because you usually couldn't be good at stealth AND be good at combat. That isn't true anymore. The new classes and even subclasses make this possible now, you can be incredibly skilled in combat relative to average characters and be completely undetectable without magick. This is especially true for some races.
Having the 'search' skill be able to give an active sweep for anyone hidden in the room you're in would be a good solution in my opinion. Tuning matters here though. Master Search should have a high chance of uncovering someone regardless of their skill level, which would be different than the passive 'scan' skill which doesn't seem to uncover maxxed hiders often.
Quote from: wizturbo on June 28, 2023, 04:11:03 PM
Stealth is definitely super overpowered but there's no easy fixes. The reason this is a problem for cities, is that you literally cannot go anywhere without fear that someone is invisible in the room with you listening or holding a knife waiting to kill you.
This was always the case even when cities were booming and the taverns always full. I agree stealth is highly imperfection, but it has nothing to do with the abysmally low player count in cities.
I think it should be impossible to hide in apartments, especially one room ones. Even if someone's under the bed or in the closet, it would be clear someone's there. "Dude I can see you."
It's like that Geico undercover agent in the trash can commercial.
The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.
So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 28, 2023, 10:34:11 PM
The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.
So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.
To be fair, people do that in real life too. I would much sooner walk through a well lit space with no hiding places if I was walking home alone than one that's dark, isolated, and filled with nooks and crannies for people to be hiding in.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 28, 2023, 10:34:11 PM
The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.
So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.
Yeah, there was a certain room that did this in Allanak years ago publicly accessible, but not with hiding, with other things, and people would purposefully walk through that room before specific shit, too.
Also, in some circumstances, people can be really oblivious to their surroundings. Like if you're drunk or very invested in what you're doing... you might not notice someone hiding under your bed right away. lol
I could see a fair balance being some sort of penalty to hiding in places that have limited spaces to hide.
Quote from: digitaleak on June 28, 2023, 10:39:17 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on June 28, 2023, 10:34:11 PM
The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.
So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.
To be fair, people do that in real life too. I would much sooner walk through a well lit space with no hiding places if I was walking home alone than one that's dark, isolated, and filled with nooks and crannies for people to be hiding in.
Right, but if someone was stalking you in real life, they proooobably wouldn't follow you right under the streetlamp just because you were spamwalking.
Quote from: digitaleak on June 28, 2023, 10:39:17 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on June 28, 2023, 10:34:11 PM
The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.
So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.
To be fair, people do that in real life too. I would much sooner walk through a well lit space with no hiding places if I was walking home alone than one that's dark, isolated, and filled with nooks and crannies for people to be hiding in.
He's got a damn good point here.
He does. It's a very valid point.
But you live in Bronze Age Detroit, populated with an underclass of exceptionally skilled thieves and murderers with a cultural bent towards harming you for fun, run by a cruel dragon overlord who only keeps you around to absorb your lifeforce, and managed by a thuggish police force who whose only real purpose is to keep you in line and fill their own pockets.
Go ahead. Ask Nenyuk if your hallway can be lit by more than 2 drops of burning Crisco on a clay plate so you don't get mugged.
Quote from: Synthesis on June 28, 2023, 10:34:11 PM
The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.
So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.
You shouldn't be able to hide in a square room that doesn't even have a closet. Where would you be hiding?
Quote from: Classclown on June 29, 2023, 11:48:40 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on June 28, 2023, 10:34:11 PM
The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.
So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.
You shouldn't be able to hide in a square room that doesn't even have a closet. Where would you be hiding?
(https://mediaproxy.tvtropes.org/width/350/https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/River_ceiling2.jpg)
Quote from: Classclown on June 29, 2023, 11:48:40 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on June 28, 2023, 10:34:11 PM
The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.
So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.
You shouldn't be able to hide in a square room that doesn't even have a closet. Where would you be hiding?
I don't disagree with that.
The problem is I (the player) sometimes don't know that the next room I'm going into is in fact a square room without a closet where my character will suddenly and magically pop into visibility.
The solution would be something like the no-follow flag. E.g. noshadow on--you will not shadow other characters into rooms that automatically break your hide.
Quote from: Miradus on June 29, 2023, 09:43:07 AM
But you live in Bronze Age Detroit, populated with an underclass of exceptionally skilled thieves and murderers with a cultural bent towards harming you for fun, run by a cruel dragon overlord who only keeps you around to absorb your lifeforce, and managed by a thuggish police force who whose only real purpose is to keep you in line and fill their own pockets.
Speak for yourself. ;D
Quote from: Classclown on June 29, 2023, 11:48:40 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on June 28, 2023, 10:34:11 PM
The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.
So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.
You shouldn't be able to hide in a square room that doesn't even have a closet. Where would you be hiding?
This is the problem with the cities as I see it. Not people hiding, people complaining about stealth.
You got 3 types of archtypes really. Fighty, who spends their time mostly in the wilds, Crafty, that spends their time mostly in warehouses, and stealthy, who spend most of their time in bars.
For years we've been chipping away at a core archtype for the players in the city. So is it any wonder at all that less and less people are playing there if the things they would want to play there are less and less viable?
This isn't even just codedly. Thematicly, we are also pushing our stealthy players away. Just look at Tuluk. Back in the day, thieves were just as highly respected as assassins. But if you read the modern documentation, thieves aren't shadow artists anymore, and cannot be considered masters, because killing is the opposite of thieving. In tuluk now, thieves are just... Thieves. With a tattoo that means "my fine is scaling, eventually I wont be able to pay it"
And there's no give on that scaling fine either. You can be a master thief, have done 20 missions for the templars against allanak, stolen copper for them. But fuck up 1 to many times, even with 20 years between fuckups. You lost your master.
why are the documents so much harsher on thieves, who just make roleplay, then assassins, who remove it?
Quote from: Fredd on July 02, 2023, 09:34:34 AM
why are the documents so much harsher on thieves, who just make roleplay, then assassins, who remove it?
Very interested in this.
Unfortunately, thieves kind of get the same treatment a lot of the time. The crime code is very all or nothing and people really like their stuff. Both for the thieves and for the thieved, it winds up with a lot negatives.
I do kind of wish, myself, it was easier to incapacitate without killing PCs. I'd like to see more people being taken prisoner, interrogated, beat up and kidnapped, ransomed, et cetera.
I get it, save me speech about how it's a harsh world and all, but to me it's not a harshness thing it's just more interesting than the status quo of "one second you're standing there, the next you're dead because I pulled out THE SUPERMOVE" but it becomes the standard way-to-play because nobody wants to lose and obviously that's In-Character also. It just makes any conflict between players feel a bit shallow and code-centric more than roleplay centric.
I HONESTLY believe its because assassins kill your PC and while its a shock and you have to get over it, you eventually move on.
When a thief steals your shit from you, you have to 'deal with it' somehow. Find the thief. Order a replacement. Find someone who can make or sell it. Earn the coins to get another one.
While yes, one allows you to 'continue on', a lot of players sincerely dislike being 'forced' into a roleplay they didn't want.
Quote from: Riev on July 03, 2023, 01:05:07 PM
When a thief steals your shit from you, you have to 'deal with it' somehow. Find the thief. Order a replacement. Find someone who can make or sell it. Earn the coins to get another one.
While yes, one allows you to 'continue on', a lot of players sincerely dislike being 'forced' into a roleplay they didn't want.
I think that sounds messed up. Ideally, it's incentive for thieves not to steal more than someone is ready to hunt you down over- especially if you leave calling cards that encourage the victim to pay a discounted price for their item back. But stealth killing characters, especially long-lived ones, is just messed up unless they REALLY had it coming.
The longer you're in your role, the more likely to are to have pissed someone off enough that their only seeming recourse is to have you removed.
I'm 100% behind any other methods of attack, but too often (and I'm being serious here), too often those in these types of roles don't play with openings to exploit, or allow themselves to be manipulated etc.
Props to LauraMars and her bowl-cut dickheaded templar being ALLOWED to be manipulated.
Quote from: Riev on July 03, 2023, 02:39:30 PM
The longer you're in your role, the more likely to are to have pissed someone off enough that their only seeming recourse is to have you removed.
I'm 100% behind any other methods of attack, but too often (and I'm being serious here), too often those in these types of roles don't play with openings to exploit, or allow themselves to be manipulated etc.
Props to LauraMars and her bowl-cut dickheaded templar being ALLOWED to be manipulated.
Agreed fully with this,
I'm 100% behind any other methods of attack, but too often (and I'm being serious here), too often those in these types of roles don't play with openings to exploit, or allow themselves to be manipulated etc.
Quote from: Riev on July 03, 2023, 02:39:30 PM
I'm 100% behind any other methods of attack, but too often (and I'm being serious here), too often those in these types of roles don't play with openings to exploit, or allow themselves to be manipulated etc.
Props to LauraMars and her bowl-cut dickheaded templar being ALLOWED to be manipulated.
There's a certain grey area there. You can try to manipulate people, and if the price is low enough they may think it's not worth the hassle to fight.
Start with too high an asking price, and you're just begging for someone to deal with you violently at the first opportunity. Or simply see people who don't bother with RP hooks, which is arguably worse.
Quotewhy are the documents so much harsher on thieves, who just make roleplay, then assassins, who remove it?
Assassins don't remove roleplay they are a conduit for it. I think PK isn't always assassination. If your character is assassinated it's because they made an impact somehow. That's continuing the plotline. Someone will look for them, be upset they're gone, or celebrate. Someone will profit from it, the roleplay will continue because of it. It stops for your character but if you made an impact so successfully that you get assassinated for it, then you've helped the roleplay of everyone else.
Quote from: LetaSpringle on July 03, 2023, 06:57:27 PM
Quotewhy are the documents so much harsher on thieves, who just make roleplay, then assassins, who remove it?
Assassins don't remove roleplay they are a conduit for it. I think PK isn't always assassination. If your character is assassinated it's because they made an impact somehow. That's continuing the plotline. Someone will look for them, be upset they're gone, or celebrate. Someone will profit from it, the roleplay will continue because of it. It stops for your character but if you made an impact so successfully that you get assassinated for it, then you've helped the roleplay of everyone else.
I went a bit heavy to drive the point home. I fully respect Assassin Rp, and what they bring to the game. But we have been leaning to that style of play over theft for a while now. I'm old I know. I miss them old days when I could be considered a Master Shadow Artist as a thief with countless thefts and pranks under my belt, but only 1 or 2 Pk's in his whole career. But being considered a Master was somehting I wanted back then. it was a goal to strive for through RP.
A reason to sneak into alanak and pick nobles pockets, a reason so sneak things into a nobles office, next to the deeds to the Qinars they governed.
Sure, you can do all that stuff still (well, not the deed thing. no more deeds AFAIK) but you get the point I'm trying to make, right people?
Quote from: Fredd on July 03, 2023, 08:21:50 PM
Sure, you can do all that stuff still (well, not the deed thing. no more deeds AFAIK) but you get the point I'm trying to make, right people?
No, I really don't.
Quote from: Patuk on July 03, 2023, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: Fredd on July 03, 2023, 08:21:50 PM
Sure, you can do all that stuff still (well, not the deed thing. no more deeds AFAIK) but you get the point I'm trying to make, right people?
No, I really don't.
His point is that they re-worked the Shadow Artist system to be more PK heavy than simple theft and he is not a fan. He would prefer it to be like the previous iteration, that failed, than the current one which has also failed.
Oh, one more old set of mistakes to repeat. Okay.
Quote from: Patuk on July 03, 2023, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: Fredd on July 03, 2023, 08:21:50 PM
Sure, you can do all that stuff still (well, not the deed thing. no more deeds AFAIK) but you get the point I'm trying to make, right people?
No, I really don't.
I'll break it down really simple for you.
Over the years we have played this game, we have seen people complain constantly about the stealth gameplay. Many different nerfs were put into place over the years. This includes no-hide areas (bad imo) and giving more people master scan and watch(a great answer IMO) among other things.
On top of these coded changes, we have uncoded changes, like the change to how Shadow Artists work in Tuluk, which put more focus on assassins, and less on Thieves. So you have this push to play a type of stealthy, assassin type. But what does the assassin type do? They kill. And when someone's city pc dies, what's the usual answer? Roll to a hunter/fighter pc that spends most of their time outside of the cities.
If you want to entice people to play in the cities, don't erode the archtypes that play there. I don't think I can lay this out in any more simple terms Patuk.
Quote from: Riev on July 03, 2023, 10:08:48 PM
Quote from: Patuk on July 03, 2023, 08:35:21 PM
Quote from: Fredd on July 03, 2023, 08:21:50 PM
Sure, you can do all that stuff still (well, not the deed thing. no more deeds AFAIK) but you get the point I'm trying to make, right people?
No, I really don't.
His point is that they re-worked the Shadow Artist system to be more PK heavy than simple theft and he is not a fan. He would prefer it to be like the previous iteration, that failed, than the current one which has also failed.
What failed about the previous system? Let's start there and work out how to fix it.
I think there's a time and place for assassins, so I'm not against them. However I'm in agreeance that having more focus on theft and stealth would be interesting.
There's only a platform for theft and stealth if there's a target for these activities. If nobody wants anything stolen or anyone shadowed, there literally isn't a place in all of Allanak (or Tuluk, for that matter) for a character who specializes in these things. Unfortunately, for quite a while now, it has been the regrettable truth that there just isn't any such demand.
I played a master thief some five or six years ago and have fond memories of being tasked by the Guild with such jobs as getting all the estate keys from any of <redacted merchant house members> save for the one who had paid us to do that, so that he could get promoted by making the rest look incompetent because they lost their keys. That was awesome.
But these days, such things just don't seem to take place. Something's been lost, or a shift of focus onto new races and tribes and whatnot. It's as though the interaction within each partition of the game has gone missing in exchange for the flashy and shortlived latest event that almost never turns out to mean anything to any but the two or three characters who are in just the right positions at the right time. Meanwhile, for anyone else, it can be another year of sheer nothingness.
This started to become a thing before player numbers declined, too. If it had only just begun in the last year or two, one could be forgiven for thinking that it was the inevitable consequence of fewer players, but it isn't so. Something happened, some conscious decision, that made it so that the reasons to care about people in other clans (or even other people in your clan) just dried up.
What this game needs is not more tribes or populated outposts. What it needs is more reasons for the existing clans and established populations to care about each other. It's so dull to play a member/employee of House Kadius and barely care about the economy. It's tedious to play in the Byn and never care what the government thinks of anyone. It's silly to play a gangster in the Guild and barely hear of any nobles who log on often enouh to warrant caring about them.
These things were once part of city play, and what made it appealing. They've gone missing in recent years. They went missing, actually, around the time when numbers recently startled to dwindle for real. They went missing because nobody cared to maintain them, and I do wonder if that fact doesn't play a part in the declining number of people who want to play this game.
Quote from: Fredd on July 02, 2023, 09:34:34 AM
Quote from: Classclown on June 29, 2023, 11:48:40 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on June 28, 2023, 10:34:11 PM
The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.
So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.
You shouldn't be able to hide in a square room that doesn't even have a closet. Where would you be hiding?
QuoteThis is the problem with the cities as I see it. Not people hiding, people complaining about stealth.
You got 3 types of archtypes really. Fighty, who spends their time mostly in the wilds, Crafty, that spends their time mostly in warehouses, and stealthy, who spend most of their time in bars.
For years we've been chipping away at a core archtype for the players in the city. So is it any wonder at all that less and less people are playing there if the things they would want to play there are less and less viable?
This isn't even just codedly. Thematically, we are also pushing our stealthy players away. Just look at Tuluk. Back in the day, thieves were just as highly respected as assassins. But if you read the modern documentation, thieves aren't shadow artists anymore, and cannot be considered masters, because killing is the opposite of thieving. In Tuluk now, thieves are just... Thieves. With a tattoo that means "my fine is scaling, eventually I wont be able to pay it"
And there's no give on that scaling fine either. You can be a master thief, have done 20 missions for the templars against Allanak, stolen copper for them. But fuck up 1 to many times, even with 20 years between fuckups. You lost your master.
why are the documents so much harsher on thieves, who just make roleplay, then assassins, who remove it?
Crime shouldn't be easy. You shouldn't be able to walk by the front door guy with a whole apartment's worth of furniture without believable and logged rp. Same for stealthy murders. The victims' players could maybe even get a copy after death through a request, only the pertinent parts of course. It might make people feel better about their stealthy death/burglary.
Other than needing communication between staff/players to make city plots happen (as well as active city players), why not just take matters into our own hands as players and create as many of these plots for ourselves as we can on a smaller scale?
There should be an ig ooc mailing system so players can coordinate ig events without revealing the players. Maybe even allow group mailing to multiple players at once. (Targeting character name/sdesc)
ETA: To be used in conjunction with ig rp meetings, not to replace them.
Crime should not be easy but it is an important part of the game.
Stealth is important because otherwise you cannot live where you work. If you rob or mug someone and they find out its you, the entire city will jump you beyond just your victim.
Rinth and Rooftops don't make comfortable living spaces isolated from the politics of the city.
The only place that fits this criteria is redstorm as long as you have the right skills to get there and back.
You could nerf stealth and improve conflict in the game if being branded criminal or troublemaker didn't mean having to completely leave the city or live your life in stealth.
Reread your post.
QuoteIf you rob or mug someone and they find out its you, the entire city will jump you beyond just your victim.
Well, yeah. They don't want to be your next target. If you're a shitty thief and get outed, you should face the consequences. Stealth should also be as realistic as coding allows. You shouldn't get to magically vanish without proper rp or vanish in a room with virtually no hiding places.
Quote from: Classclown on July 05, 2023, 01:56:17 PM
Reread your post. QuoteIf you rob or mug someone and they find out its you, the entire city will jump you beyond just your victim.
Well, yeah. They don't want to be your next target. If you're a shitty thief and get outed, you should face the consequences. Stealth should also be as realistic as coding allows. You shouldn't get to magically vanish without proper rp or vanish in a room with virtually no hiding places.
I think what he means is that if you fail to steal 30 coins from someone in the Gaj, and get outed, the entire active playerbase will be scrolled your sdesc and you'll get Scarlet Lettered as a thief, and its instant-kill on you all the time.
Why would someone play a thief if the only way it can be does is to twink up to (master) before you interact with a single PC? The 'fun' of Armageddon is in the failures, but with city stealthies specifically... failure is a death sentence.
Quote from: digitaleak on July 05, 2023, 01:03:15 PM
Other than needing communication between staff/players to make city plots happen (as well as active city players), why not just take matters into our own hands as players and create as many of these plots for ourselves as we can on a smaller scale?
A good idea. This is why leadership PCs exist, by the way, and if there are none who qualify you should be trying to become one quickly.
Quote from: Usiku on June 18, 2023, 04:12:19 PM
A couple of years ago, we had a thread aimed at gathering insights from players who moved on from the game. Quite a number returned to participate and we compiled the feedback. Can't find that spreadsheet right now, but from what I recall, Templars/City Play didn't really stand out as a deal-breaker; if it was mentioned, it was more of a side note. Sure, there might be a certain demographic that is so put off by city play that they bail and never look back, but let's remember - our game has its own flavor and style, and it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
I'm not brushing off the concerns raised here; we are listening, taking note and having our own discussions. I just wanted to tackle the notion that "people have left due to Templars, and hence aren't here to voice their disdain for Templars," and question whether catering to this segment of the player base should be a priority.
Personally, I am more interested in feedback from players who have moved to play out of cities rather than bailing on the whole game due to this specific issue. And when it comes to those who left the game, or newbies who didn't hang around, I'm keener on understanding reasons outside of theme dislike, like tackling the learning curve, time constraints, the grind and so on.
This comment should be pasted on the main page. Anyone who left the game or is wondering if things are changing or what is changing should read this comment. This is all you need to know if you don't want to play in Cities or play Armageddon at all.
I really appreciate a producer being so candid.
Hows the player numbers doing by the way?
Quote from: Supified on July 06, 2023, 11:56:08 PM
Quote from: Usiku on June 18, 2023, 04:12:19 PM
A couple of years ago, we had a thread aimed at gathering insights from players who moved on from the game. Quite a number returned to participate and we compiled the feedback. Can't find that spreadsheet right now, but from what I recall, Templars/City Play didn't really stand out as a deal-breaker; if it was mentioned, it was more of a side note. Sure, there might be a certain demographic that is so put off by city play that they bail and never look back, but let's remember - our game has its own flavor and style, and it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
I'm not brushing off the concerns raised here; we are listening, taking note and having our own discussions. I just wanted to tackle the notion that "people have left due to Templars, and hence aren't here to voice their disdain for Templars," and question whether catering to this segment of the player base should be a priority.
Personally, I am more interested in feedback from players who have moved to play out of cities rather than bailing on the whole game due to this specific issue. And when it comes to those who left the game, or newbies who didn't hang around, I'm keener on understanding reasons outside of theme dislike, like tackling the learning curve, time constraints, the grind and so on.
This comment should be pasted on the main page. Anyone who left the game or is wondering if things are changing or what is changing should read this comment. This is all you need to know if you don't want to play in Cities or play Armageddon at all.
I really appreciate a producer being so candid.
Hows the player numbers doing by the way?
lol maybe reread the comment you're responding to idk why the pearls are getting clutched here
i am literally traumatized by how bad one specific templar was.
Please do not specifically call out other players thank you -Zealus
Quote from: Supified on July 06, 2023, 11:56:08 PM
Quote from: Usiku on June 18, 2023, 04:12:19 PM
A couple of years ago, we had a thread aimed at gathering insights from players who moved on from the game. Quite a number returned to participate and we compiled the feedback. Can't find that spreadsheet right now, but from what I recall, Templars/City Play didn't really stand out as a deal-breaker; if it was mentioned, it was more of a side note. Sure, there might be a certain demographic that is so put off by city play that they bail and never look back, but let's remember - our game has its own flavor and style, and it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
I'm not brushing off the concerns raised here; we are listening, taking note and having our own discussions. I just wanted to tackle the notion that "people have left due to Templars, and hence aren't here to voice their disdain for Templars," and question whether catering to this segment of the player base should be a priority.
Personally, I am more interested in feedback from players who have moved to play out of cities rather than bailing on the whole game due to this specific issue. And when it comes to those who left the game, or newbies who didn't hang around, I'm keener on understanding reasons outside of theme dislike, like tackling the learning curve, time constraints, the grind and so on.
Hows the player numbers doing by the way?
Numbers look to be on the rise. But I think everyone is playing outside the cities, hence this thread.
Its been an ongoing issue that there FEELS like more to do outside the cities.
I think in general, both players and staff (who are players, themselves) aren't really GOOD at coming up with city play and/or city play that hasn't "been done to death".
How many "you were seen being friendly with a Gemmed" or "Cannibalistic Noble" plot lines can you run before its just doing the same motions? In the wilderness, you can kill a scrab dozens of times and then find the Hulk Scrab that gets a lucky shot to get your blood pumping.
In the cities? I feel the blood pumping moments are "This Templar is going to kill be and I may as well just accept it, because I have no power in this scene". It is not fun to play under overbearing Templars/Nobles, and it is no fun playing alongside Templars/Nobles who 'don't do anything'.
Honestly, I think there should be some generation of ideas on "fun city plots" that COULD be run, and then staff can kind of look over that list. What 'accomplishments' can be done in a city that feels like "killing a gaj" or "taking down that rampaging bahamet"?
Quote from: Riev on July 07, 2023, 10:10:37 AM
What 'accomplishments' can be done in a city that feels like "killing a gaj" or "taking down that rampaging bahamet"?
I know people who speedrun bahamet kills, so this might not be the best example. And yet in some ways it is the best example. Invariably, the awesome becomes ordinary. Invariably, every plot is going to be done between players who have often played the game for RL years. Things will only be as exciting as they are allowed to be. If you can't take the big risks in social roleplay, how many people will care when you succeed? There's an avenue for people who want to be unnoticed and relaxed in their social RP, and there's a path for the crazy people who want to be as dramatic as possible. So what if it ends in your character getting stored or locked away to craft? That's just how things are sometimes.
Quote from: Dresan on July 05, 2023, 01:28:01 PM
If you rob or mug someone and they find out its you, the entire city will jump you beyond just your victim. ... You could nerf stealth and improve conflict in the game if being branded criminal or troublemaker didn't mean having to completely leave the city or live your life in stealth.
Okay I think this deserves a little qualification.
Last year I played a master thief/burglar for ~6 months with basically no attempt to hide what he was (okay, except for the nilazi part). He had a number of "friends." I think they mostly hoped he was victimizing other people...which was more true than not.
By "made no attempt to hide what he was" I mean:
- was a rinth elf
- sneaky as fuck
- told people he was in "salvage"
- told tall tales of burglary exploits from his youth
People don't want to lose their stuff, but a lot of folks will go along if you give them even the scantest reason to believe you're on their side, or that there's more to your PC than just taking everything that isn't nailed down.
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on July 07, 2023, 01:21:30 PM
Quote from: Dresan on July 05, 2023, 01:28:01 PM
If you rob or mug someone and they find out its you, the entire city will jump you beyond just your victim. ... You could nerf stealth and improve conflict in the game if being branded criminal or troublemaker didn't mean having to completely leave the city or live your life in stealth.
Okay I think this deserves a little qualification.
Last year I played a master thief/burglar for ~6 months with basically no attempt to hide what he was (okay, except for the nilazi part). He had a number of "friends." I think they mostly hoped he was victimizing other people...which was more true than not.
By "made no attempt to hide what he was" I mean:
- was a rinth elf
- sneaky as fuck
- told people he was in "salvage"
- told tall tales of burglary exploits from his youth
People don't want to lose their stuff, but a lot of folks will go along if you give them even the scantest reason to believe you're on their side, or that there's more to your PC than just taking everything that isn't nailed down.
You're missing the actual qualifier:
If you rob or mug someone and
they find out its youAn elf saying they used to steal stuff and is "in salvage", thats an RP opportunity. If you were caught stealing from someone, and became KNOWN, it becomes very very different. (also, elf .... its expected anyway)
So how exactly does a thief get caught out so badly that everyone knows it's them? What happened to the hood and mask mechanics? There's like two articles of clothing people would have to remove from you before you are positively identifiable. That SHOULD give enough time for a thief to run away if they get caught...
Keep in mind, I'm not exactly making a statement here, but still genuinely asking a question, seeing as I've never really been a thief, nor very successful at actually catching thieves.
But I do think a smart thief who has had a chance to skill up has many chances. If people notice you're skulking around a room, and you get notifications that you're being watched, the smart thing to do is simply leave. Bugger off and perhaps, try again another time. And this is what I feel, also makes life difficult for the victims, seeing as a smart thief can pick and choose their victims.
No matter how paranoid you are and how tightly you hold on to your bag, somehow it can just be magically opened.
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on July 07, 2023, 02:15:14 PM
So how exactly does a thief get caught out so badly that everyone knows it's them? What happened to the hood and mask mechanics? There's like two articles of clothing people would have to remove from you before you are positively identifiable. That SHOULD give enough time for a thief to run away if they get caught...
l hooded
You see an mdesc that looks an awful lot like ninjaFruitSalad and a set of gear you're pretty sure you saw NinjaFruitSalad wearing before.
Quote from: Riev on July 07, 2023, 02:17:43 PM
l hooded
You see an mdesc that looks an awful lot like ninjaFruitSalad and a set of gear you're pretty sure you saw NinjaFruitSalad wearing before.
You can also veil/mask. And also, the smart thing to do is change out gears so that what you wear when you are thieving does not match what you wear when you're.. out socializing or whatever.
Also.
Quote from: Riev on June 29, 2023, 11:55:50 AM
Quote from: Classclown on June 29, 2023, 11:48:40 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on June 28, 2023, 10:34:11 PM
The problem with no-hide rooms is always that your CHARACTER would know that it's impossible to hide there, but there's never a clear warning for the PLAYER that it's impossible to hide there prior to attempting it and being seen.
So people do weird metagame stuff such as "always passing through that one room" to make sure nobody is shadowing them.
You shouldn't be able to hide in a square room that doesn't even have a closet. Where would you be hiding?
(https://mediaproxy.tvtropes.org/width/350/https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/River_ceiling2.jpg)
While the picture is cool and all, and I see your point, I still find it highly unrealistic. At the very least, such a feat like this should have a heavy stamina drain, and it still seems like there's a good chance to be spotted.
Unfortunately, sometimes players will resort to "unrealistic" justifications because the last time they tried to "play by the rules", someone else loosely justified poor behavior.
You're right, its the "smart" thing to do, but does it not get tiring or exhausting to have to put hours of thought into a roleplaying game just to 'avoid being screwed over by a player who doesn't understand a face mask might hide the shape of your nose'?
Maybe this really isn't the game for people like me, who want to have the time they can dedicate to a game be respected.
You get outted as a thief fairly quickly in this game.
First of all, even at max some thief skills will still critcally fail and you may end up wanted. You better be ready to escape crimcode with subguild level skills.
Secondly guild sniffing is still fairly rampant and easy to do.
Lastly, you'll get outted the moment you offer your 'services' in any way, or sell to something to someone other than an npc. Eventually even friends and allies will sometimes ask you if you stole soap from x,y,z who lives on the otherside of the known.
I am not complaining mind you, always had fun with my theives.
It is just people really hate losing their virtual stuff. Being hunted is not the worst of it, it gets to the point players will rage and complain icly and oocly. Where they blame you for every single theft. And templars you've never met want to suddenly meet and have 'chats' with you and staff begin counting emotes per peek skill use to decide if you are abusing code and deserve to have karma docked.
It is certainly a fun but sometimes thankless role. :)
Cities spiral downward because when there are less people, there are less things to do there, and when there are less things to do there are less people, etc. This applies to thieves too. Less people, less targets and suspects, less anonymity when you steal, etc.
People having less time to play in general starts off this death loop, this is why Tuluk was closed and an attempt was made to consolidate players. At times when I recall these cities were bustling, there was a lot more interest in automated money making activities (clay pits, obsidian) in part because this was way back and people weren't fully aware of game mechanics and easier ways to make money. It created a virtuous cycle of having a lot of people in the city, more interesting plots (including crime plots), etc. Now that we are collectively getting busier and more knowledgeable as a playerbase (I haven't played in a year but more or less have the game map memorized), it's much easier to just go off to a corner of the game world and enjoy the mechanics there.
One idea is to automate activities in the city more or otherwise make cities mechanically interesting again so that people have a reason to be there. Have a guild leader who will give you a task to steal from (or kill) a randomly generated NPC in the 'rinth. Make automated tasks increasingly difficult so people have an incentive to band together. Maybe add a sparring arena near a tavern, where people can interact, make bets, etc. Maybe automate the ability for players to make gladiator characters and other city focused roles that nobles and leaders can use disposably, allowing players short on time to get involved in plots. Randomly stock shops with more materials so merchants can still thrive without hunters; remove raw material buy limits so hunters don't have to visit 5 different cities or two different apartments to offload goods from one hunting trip. A lot of players being away from cities might just boil down to a lack of interesting mechanics in cities.
I think I mentioned it somewhere earlier in this thread but yeah, I love the idea of more attractions. Restaurants, arena, festivals, entertainment/plays/events. Things IRL cities have to attract people to spend time and money there. That's just me, though. :D
Quote from: digitaleak on July 08, 2023, 01:42:37 AM
I think I mentioned it somewhere earlier in this thread but yeah, I love the idea of more attractions. Restaurants, arena, festivals, entertainment/plays/events. Things IRL cities have to attract people to spend time and money there. That's just me, though. :D
Most of what you said are put together by players. When i was a Tuluki Noble I had constant events being planned with the bards.
We had contests where the other nobles would judge and get to engage in some double talk with eachother.
We had Bards singing political songs in the bars, which meant new music for players to enjoy, new politics for the city to enjoy, and new creation for the bards to enjoy.
All this absolutely does entice people to play in the city.
Quote from: digitaleak on July 08, 2023, 01:42:37 AM
I think I mentioned it somewhere earlier in this thread but yeah, I love the idea of more attractions. Restaurants, arena, festivals, entertainment/plays/events. Things IRL cities have to attract people to spend time and money there. That's just me, though. :D
Restaurants: not a thing in Armageddon at all. There's food sold in every tavern, and most people don't buy any. In fact, most people don't even buy drinks there. Some do. But most don't.
Arena: there are fighting venues in both cities. They're currently closed due to lack of interest in both running them and participating in them (why would you want to run an arena event if no one ever shows up to watch it?)
Events: it's pretty demoralizing to be someone who puts together these things, only to have the same 4 PCs show up at them, and even then, they need to be coerced or reminded or bribed to show up because they're too busy spam-crafting in another tavern to be bothered.
IRL cities have advertisements, hotel rooms that rent by the night, electricity, mass transit, credit card payments, checks, and dollar bills so people don't have to carry their dinner and theatre money around in 1-penny coins everywhere. They have signs that people can read, discounts and coupons, tens of thousands of active people to show up and spend money. Armageddon has none of that.
Takeaway: you can't compare a fantasy city in a fantasy world in a text game to a real life city. You can contrast, but you can't compare. The only things the two have in common are: they are where the greater clusters of people are, they are seats of commerce, and they have official governments. That's it. Everything else is different.
And yes all those other things are great ideas, but they need two completely different types of players to make them successful: players who are good at RUNNING these things, and players who are good at ATTENDING these things. And those players all have to be playing their respective characters in the same place, at the same time.
Quote from: Lizzie on July 08, 2023, 09:38:53 AMQuote from: digitaleak on July 08, 2023, 01:42:37 AMI think I mentioned it somewhere earlier in this thread but yeah, I love the idea of more attractions. Restaurants, arena, festivals, entertainment/plays/events. Things IRL cities have to attract people to spend time and money there. That's just me, though. :D
Restaurants: not a thing in Armageddon at all. There's food sold in every tavern, and most people don't buy any. In fact, most people don't even buy drinks there. Some do. But most don't.
Isn't the Desert Bloom (Formerly the Silver Ginka) a Restaurant? And the Azure Dragon? And the Golden Nugget?
Theres also Bazaar food stands as well.
I always considered the Desert Bloom a cafe. Sells teas and sweet food, certainly isn't a tavern.
I was considering this whole thing earlier and had a thought.
You know what seems like is really missing from the cities? Full on crafters.
They used to be all over the place. Every merchant house had a few, and every indy crew had at least one. But that's not really the case anymore.
Why? Well, as far as I can tell, i think this has to do with the classes these days.
Why be city bound when you can be something like a Laborer with Advanced weapon and crafting skills, which lets you go out and get your own materials wihtout needing anyone else?
I'de be interested in knowing how many people are hybrid like that. Cause that gameplay is mostly go out, get mats, come back, build stuff, sell at the market. You are doing the whole supply chain yourself, so there's no downtime for sitting in bars and getting/giving random roleplay.
Quote from: Kestria on July 08, 2023, 02:32:59 PMI always considered the Desert Bloom a cafe. Sells teas and sweet food, certainly isn't a tavern.
It's at least de-facto a "bakery", with chairs and tea and sweets. An eatery of some stripe, a restaurant.
Numbers have been in an upward trend for the last few months. With city populations steadily increasing too. We have been hitting 40ish at peak on some nights, which is in the right direction, with populations skewed towards city play again.
It's possible it's just cyclical. But it would be better if it was stable.
Quote from: Fredd on July 08, 2023, 03:16:54 PMWhy be city bound when you can be something like a Laborer with Advanced weapon and crafting skills, which lets you go out and get your own materials wihtout needing anyone else?
I'de be interested in knowing how many people are hybrid like that. Cause that gameplay is mostly go out, get mats, come back, build stuff, sell at the market. You are doing the whole supply chain yourself, so there's no downtime for sitting in bars and getting/giving random roleplay.
I don't know, man. If you're grinding in a text-based game, that's Kool and the Gang. But it means no one will miss you when the kryl finally take you down. I like city RP, which has already inspired me to uncover certain mysteries and do cool stuff. If the endless flavorless desert and the solo crafter grind is more appealing, then I have to ask: why play at all?
Usiki sounds right here: I'm seeing people in cities and fairly busy taverns, while I can't honestly say how many tribes/ raiders are flourishing right now. I'd be surprised if they were a majority of the active player base.
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on July 07, 2023, 02:24:07 PMQuote from: Riev on July 07, 2023, 02:17:43 PMl hooded
You see an mdesc that looks an awful lot like ninjaFruitSalad and a set of gear you're pretty sure you saw NinjaFruitSalad wearing before.
You can also veil/mask. And also, the smart thing to do is change out gears so that what you wear when you are thieving does not match what you wear when you're.. out socializing or whatever.
Just not really possible, since all someone has to do is a no-lag 'look figure' and they've got everything they need.
Real meta is to write your mdesc in such a way that it doesn't actually use any of your sdesc keywords. Also wear a lot of jewelry and rags and shit to give a two page equipment and hope no one scrolls up.
Quote from: Riev on July 05, 2023, 02:05:33 PMQuote from: Classclown on July 05, 2023, 01:56:17 PMReread your post.
QuoteIf you rob or mug someone and they find out its you, the entire city will jump you beyond just your victim.
Well, yeah. They don't want to be your next target. If you're a shitty thief and get outed, you should face the consequences. Stealth should also be as realistic as coding allows. You shouldn't get to magically vanish without proper rp or vanish in a room with virtually no hiding places.
I think what he means is that if you fail to steal 30 coins from someone in the Gaj, and get outed, the entire active playerbase will be scrolled your sdesc and you'll get Scarlet Lettered as a thief, and its instant-kill on you all the time.
Why would someone play a thief if the only way it can be does is to twink up to (master) before you interact with a single PC? The 'fun' of Armageddon is in the failures, but with city stealthies specifically... failure is a death sentence.
Stealing from or trying to kill a high risk target (someone "notable", or a "pc") is not the only way to interact with pcs. And because interacting this way with pcs is not the only way to interact with them, I don't understand why people are either a. targetting them with shit skills that are liable to fail or b. expecting that in this one area of the game, high risk behavior shouldn't result in bad results often before they are good at what they are doing.
NPCs aren't outing your sdesc to the entire playerbase. Most people who are out there pking other people aren't trying to do that without considerable training, why should they be encouraged do it with theft? Both of these are high risk activities, doing so without considerable training, the likelihood of everything going to shit is high.
You want to steal from someone all the time and have the playerbase never give a shit? Target the playerbase like they actually ARE only about 2 dozen out of a million people that you can do this to, because you have a million Nakkis to practice on, and if you want to go straight for the riskiest 25 people or so out of a million, that's on you. Hell, target elven npcs and laugh about it at the Gaj. You might encourage other people to up their elf hate game.
That's just me though.
It isn't just you, but there's this belief that PCs should not be using their skills to "twink up" on NPCs alone because then you aren't interacting with the playerbase either.
Believe, I would rather work my skills up on some beggar who doesn't matter before I even attempt my skills on that kitted-out Bynner with a mean backhand, or reaching into that Silks pockets.
However, history has shown that if I am only using my skills on NPCs and staff catch wind, I get a nastygram.
Addendum - I do also think that you should be ABLE to fail a steal on someone, be known as a thief and shunned as one, but otherwise not have the entire city trying to kill you in a backroom because you failed to steal 30 coins from someone that one time.
I get that if you aren't interacting with pcs and you're literally just hiding alone somewhere grinding to master. Guess what, pcs don't buy most basic crafts, either, making crafting a primarily npc thing where you're doing your skill shit. Same with hunting. How many hunters are going to other pcs to try and hunt. Not to going to them to try and find a hunting PARTNER, but to hunt ON them, rather. Just to be clear.
And I didn't say npcs ALONE. I'm saying that the worse you are at doing something risky, the more actually treating it like you are bad at it makes sense. IDK. You make a valid point on the front about /not interacting with other players/ but if you are interacting with other players, then it seems like the point is moot?
We don't have a class that's only good at pick pocketing. therefore there are plenty of ways to interact even if you're grinding steal on npcs on the side. I have a hard time imagining current staff taking issue with a well roleplayed interactive pc that secretly trains steal on npcs exclusively.
Another idea for training with PCs : sneak gifts into friends pockets.
note: this game is roleplay required not interaction with other players required. Though obviously it's designed for interaction being the main thrill.
Quote from: Riev on July 10, 2023, 09:50:49 AMbut otherwise not have the entire city trying to kill you in a backroom because you failed to steal 30 coins from someone that one time.
Here here
Quote from: Kaathe on July 31, 2023, 02:15:19 PMWe don't have a class that's only good at pick pocketing. therefore there are plenty of ways to interact even if you're grinding steal on npcs on the side. I have a hard time imagining current staff taking issue with a well roleplayed interactive pc that secretly trains steal on npcs exclusively.
This is literally how I was taught, and it's how I teach newbie pickpocket/thief players.
Bonus: You can plant on NPC's too, to train your skill. back in the day, this is how a certain group of House Sworn Shadow Artists would pass out alms. Once their skills were good enough, random pc's in taverns would find gems or food in their pockets as well.
Quote from: Lutagar on January 31, 2023, 09:39:31 PMa clan that
A) has no schedule
B) doesn't have a limited number of slots so i didn't oocly feel bad i was blocking other people who wanted the slot/feel like i have to play arm like a job to be deserving of it
so long as schedules/slots remain a thing for 99% of city clans i'd probably sooner stop playing arm than play in a city
Hey, I'm not noticing an answer to you. So i thought I'de toss this out there: The Guild more or less fits your needs. No Schedule, no max numbers as far as I know (if there is a max it's enough that I've never heard worry of it when I've played) And it gets a good amount of interaction since it has a distinct place in Allanak.
Quote from: Fredd on August 01, 2023, 10:29:16 AMQuote from: Kaathe on July 31, 2023, 02:15:19 PMWe don't have a class that's only good at pick pocketing. therefore there are plenty of ways to interact even if you're grinding steal on npcs on the side. I have a hard time imagining current staff taking issue with a well roleplayed interactive pc that secretly trains steal on npcs exclusively.
This is literally how I was taught, and it's how I teach newbie pickpocket/thief players.
Bonus: You can plant on NPC's too, to train your skill. back in the day, this is how a certain group of House Sworn Shadow Artists would pass out alms. Once their skills were good enough, random pc's in taverns would find gems or food in their pockets as well.
Since the before times, I have practiced with Planting pouches of coin on people. My best was a pouch filled with 300 coins without being spotted.
I used to love it. But if you get caught planting coin on someone, the same penalty/fine applies as if you tried to teal from them.
How do I know? I tried to plant spice on a Jihaen Templar. They ordered it, I was just trying to show off my skills. I failed, and they took my hat as payment.
Quote from: Riev on August 01, 2023, 11:15:47 AMQuote from: Fredd on August 01, 2023, 10:29:16 AMQuote from: Kaathe on July 31, 2023, 02:15:19 PMWe don't have a class that's only good at pick pocketing. therefore there are plenty of ways to interact even if you're grinding steal on npcs on the side. I have a hard time imagining current staff taking issue with a well roleplayed interactive pc that secretly trains steal on npcs exclusively.
This is literally how I was taught, and it's how I teach newbie pickpocket/thief players.
Bonus: You can plant on NPC's too, to train your skill. back in the day, this is how a certain group of House Sworn Shadow Artists would pass out alms. Once their skills were good enough, random pc's in taverns would find gems or food in their pockets as well.
Since the before times, I have practiced with Planting pouches of coin on people. My best was a pouch filled with 300 coins without being spotted.
I used to love it. But if you get caught planting coin on someone, the same penalty/fine applies as if you tried to teal from them.
How do I know? I tried to plant spice on a Jihaen Templar. They ordered it, I was just trying to show off my skills. I failed, and they took my hat as payment.
Lucky, that's technically touching a highborn, under Old Tuluk rules. ;)
Cities are set up for short stories more then lengthy played out characters it seems.
Here's one idea. I feel compounds of large enough organizations + areas restricted to large orgs should admit people dresses in certain item(s) belonging to the clan. For example if I knocked a Byn runner unconcious and stole their aba, I should be able to enter the Byn compound since being an org with a lot of turnover who really keeps track of who's in the clan or not? Similarly with the noble quarter in Nak. If I manage to get my hands on a pitchcloak Or the cloak/insignia of some noble house, I should he able to enter the noble quarter. It's not like the guards have a computerized database with biometrics to keep track of all the noble employees.
Quote from: LidlessEye on August 28, 2023, 03:11:21 PMHere's one idea. I feel compounds of large enough organizations + areas restricted to large orgs should admit people dresses in certain item(s) belonging to the clan. For example if I knocked a Byn runner unconcious and stole their aba, I should be able to enter the Byn compound since being an org with a lot of turnover who really keeps track of who's in the clan or not? Similarly with the noble quarter in Nak. If I manage to get my hands on a pitchcloak Or the cloak/insignia of some noble house, I should he able to enter the noble quarter. It's not like the guards have a computerized database with biometrics to keep track of all the noble employees.
I think for the Byn, where they don't care so much about runners, this would be so fun. Especially cause a Sergeant could be like, "who the fuck are you?" and if they are fun and willing to RP, you can weasel your way in.
However, a perk of GMH and big clans is the protection. Which... you know.. there should be a limit to housing in a compound and we should have apartment buildings.. this is getting tricky. I'm losing my train of thought here... Lots to think about.
Quote from: LidlessEye on August 28, 2023, 03:11:21 PMHere's one idea. I feel compounds of large enough organizations + areas restricted to large orgs should admit people dresses in certain item(s) belonging to the clan.
Yeah, but then some doofus will steal everything down to the (REDACTED), then never come back. I can see this being a massive headache for anyone trying to keep things in the compound, including the storeroom, with very little upside.
As for stealing from nobles, that's even less likely. Their doorguards absolutely can recognize people who should have any access to the noble properties, and are extremely unlikely to be bribed by thieves.
Problem is, part of why there's less espionage is noble estates are literally impossible to get into. In Nak they have double security. To infiltrate, you need to wait for noble or their aide to log in, shadow them all day long and hope they go home. It would suck if you were on their tail for like six hours and they ultimately logged out in the Arboretum.
Perhaps if the above is problematic, you could have a schedule following NPC to follow. In Nak I've seen a particular house NPC go to a certain tavern to drink at certain times of day before leaving again. I mistook them for a pc at first. Perhaps we can have these npcs go in and out of compounds etc at times.
Quote from: Trevalyan on August 28, 2023, 04:59:01 PMQuote from: LidlessEye on August 28, 2023, 03:11:21 PMHere's one idea. I feel compounds of large enough organizations + areas restricted to large orgs should admit people dresses in certain item(s) belonging to the clan.
Yeah, but then some doofus will steal everything down to the (REDACTED), then never come back. I can see this being a massive headache for anyone trying to keep things in the compound, including the storeroom, with very little upside.
As for stealing from nobles, that's even less likely. Their doorguards absolutely can recognize people who should have any access to the noble properties, and are extremely unlikely to be bribed by thieves.
And I mean the guard at the noble quarter entrance, not individual estate guards :)