Armageddon General Discussion Board

Before someone says, "be the change", or even, "found out IC", this isn't really just a player problem, it's also a staff problem.  Yes, I just said that, but please staff, don't take offense, just giving ideas/comments here.

I finished the Mistborn series and I was amazed at how the world changed from defeating/killing the Lord Ruler to recreating the world before the Lord Ruler into a world close to 19th century 1st world countries.  Yes, I know that the Known doesn't had that much metal, but that's not the point here.  The point here is that I don't feel like the world hasn't changed at all regardless of the events from the last HRPT.  Yes, there were changes at least in Tuluk (sorry, I spent my last two years in Tuluk before it closed), but I didn't feel any real changes in Tuluk.  Sure, the barriers and such to keep the outsiders from the center of Tuluk and also the Noble House events.  But I feel like something else was lacking.  Something more major to really make a bigger change because I feel like it was only focused on Tuluk forgetting that Allanak was a threat.  Again, the barriers, yes, but no real war (which we covered in a topic about the time after the HRPT).

Sorry for the ramble there, but even without the war and to the point of closing Tuluk's gates, I feel like there is no major change in the setting of ArmMUD.  Allanak is still Allanak, in the city's ways.  Yes, maybe the changes to the Templars might help, but we haven't seen one in game yet.  I know that someone pointed out that there is no news from Tuluk reaching the Known and I agree that that's what is needed.  Then staff could make a secret role call for this concept, but that could just lead to Tuluk reopening which the Staff don't want.

Because Tuluk is closed, the staff started to focus on the Tablelands, and again no news of what is happening is reaching other places of the Known.  I don't if the idea of news could help to create plots and even change the world in a larger scale.

Anyways, I think the Known World setting is too static to me.  Maybe it's because the playerbase grown up and many don't have that much time to play or we just need that next HRPT.

Or be the change, 'Sook

You know there's a growing problem with Arm when even sweet innocent Russian bot sent to kill us all Barsook thinks Arm is getting dull heheh.

I chose other. I like the static backdrop. I think players in general are a little too gunshy about causing trouble, hurting, and killing other characters.

I don't have any way of answering this question.

Since I started playing, I have not maintained any one character long enough to ever have made a real impact on the game world. However I notice that when I die and roll up a new character and log on into the bar, I see some of the same characters who were there months and months ago. And I haven't seen where THEY have made any impact on the game world either. Is it happening and I just don't hear about it or see any real change? Or is it not happening?

From an outsider perspective who doesn't really interface with many others, I got a little irritated when I see that sponsored role come up awhile back for a leader of the Guild, the crime syndicate boss.

I thought at the time, "Are there NO criminal-types who have worked hard and could receive that job as part of a quest line? Or even someone who hadn't worked hard but might be given the opportunity to bump off the boss and take over?" If I had been playing as some minor part of that organization at the time and that call went out, I would have been super-pissed off that they would completely disregard everyone in the storyline and just insta-create some new character and give him all the skills, contacts, and power.

So based on that, I sort of came to the conclusion that the game world is static as far as players are concerned and a little more fluid where the staff is concerned. And I don't really think I approve of that. I feel like a one-legged man in a marathon. I may not win, but I demand that I be allowed to compete.

Some cataclysmic change is needed.

We have more conflict happening, more danger, gith are more of a presence/ problem yet outside of the volcano changing places, there have been no major world changers...like the Tuluki flood and the arrival of Kryl.

That could be the direction staff are going as well and that they are working to prepare the way now, by revamping guilds and subguilds and cleaning up much of the code. I don't know. Be nice to have a peek at their current long term vision.

Quote from: Yam on June 14, 2016, 07:26:19 PM
I chose other. I like the static backdrop. I think players in general are a little too gunshy about causing trouble, hurting, and killing other characters.

I feel this is bred from the system, specifically, because no one does this, when someone does everyone jumps at the chance to help track them down, find out about them, etc. The end result is a week later the trouble maker is dead and you're right back where you started. This combined with the grind to becoming actually deadly to other players on a new character just makes it unrealistic. Nobody wants to put a bunch of work into something they will essentially be throwing away.

However, I have made a character with the idea that they would cause trouble for others and be dead inside of 2-3 days played. I was moderately successful, had some of the most fun I've ever had, and I like to think generated some plot for others. I encourage all of you to make a throw away character after your current one dies, and to go out and punch a member of the Arm/ insult a noble/ get yourself in trouble. You really won't have much to lose and will make a lot of fun for others, and possibly yourself. Those Arm PCs need someone to track down.

Quote from: Norcal on June 14, 2016, 07:53:49 PM
Some cataclysmic change is needed.

We have more conflict happening, more danger, gith are more of a presence/ problem yet outside of the volcano changing places, there have been no major world changers...like the Tuluki flood and the arrival of Kryl.

That could be the direction staff are going as well and that they are working to prepare the way now, by revamping guilds and subguilds and cleaning up much of the code. I don't know. Be nice to have a peek at their current long term vision.

Biowizard halflings with flying whale skimmers.  And snow.

Quote from: lostinspace on June 14, 2016, 07:56:49 PM

Quote from: Yam on June 14, 2016, 07:26:19 PM
I chose other. I like the static backdrop. I think players in general are a little too gunshy about causing trouble, hurting, and killing other characters.

I feel this is bred from the system, specifically, because no one does this, when someone does everyone jumps at the chance to help track them down, find out about them, etc. The end result is a week later the trouble maker is dead and you're right back where you started. This combined with the grind to becoming actually deadly to other players on a new character just makes it unrealistic. Nobody wants to put a bunch of work into something they will essentially be throwing away.

However, I have made a character with the idea that they would cause trouble for others and be dead inside of 2-3 days played. I was moderately successful, had some of the most fun I've ever had, and I like to think generated some plot for others. I encourage all of you to make a throw away character after your current one dies, and to go out and punch a member of the Arm/ insult a noble/ get yourself in trouble. You really won't have much to lose and will make a lot of fun for others, and possibly yourself. Those Arm PCs need someone to track down.

I think long term conflict is needed and that it needs to be driven by skilled, long-lived PCs. I've played over 100 characters in Arm, and a good number have been the 2-3 days played minor antagonists. I think those are great but I think the game tends to miss long lived antagonists. There have been a few notable ones in the past though and overall I think the game is in a pretty good state. Shit's goin' down.

Quote from: Barsook on June 14, 2016, 06:55:32 PM
I finished the Mistborn series and I was amazed at how the world changed from defeating/killing the Lord Ruler to recreating the world before the Lord Ruler into a world close to 19th century 1st world countries.  Yes, I know that the Known doesn't had that much metal, but that's not the point here.  

Since no one has killed either lord ruler equivalent, both of whom are highly invested in their respective status quos, the static (ish--it's not completely static; I mean, the areas outside Allanak and Tuluk have changed drastically since I've been here, and both cities' social systems have changed in big ways, but I think maybe you're taking large-scale technological change) nature of the setting makes story sense to me.

Quote from: Yam on June 14, 2016, 08:01:55 PM
I think long term conflict is needed and that it needs to be driven by skilled, long-lived PCs. I've played over 100 characters in Arm, and a good number have been the 2-3 days played minor antagonists. I think those are great but I think the game tends to miss long lived antagonists. There have been a few notable ones in the past though and overall I think the game is in a pretty good state. Shit's goin' down.

I've seen people try and make recurring antagonists, all the ones I saw never really lasted long. The problem with a long term (player) antagonist is they have to walk the fine line of being bad enough to get a response, but not being bad enough to bring everyone down on them at once. For npc antagonists like kryl and gith this isn't a problem, because there can always just be more. More power to those who managed it, but I just can't put that much time into a character with the goal of making others want him dead.

Largely, I think, because your main method of antagonizing people in plots is going to be to go sit in the Gaj and be an ass. At least that's the most "plot" I've seen thus far.

You can't go set up a villainous lair and have your minions go do things for you. You can't set up a secret base because it's too far from the blasted tavern which is the only place you'll find people willing to roleplay.

Quote from: Miradus on June 14, 2016, 08:46:00 PM
Largely, I think, because your main method of antagonizing people in plots is going to be to go sit in the Gaj and be an ass. At least that's the most "plot" I've seen thus far.

You can't go set up a villainous lair and have your minions go do things for you. You can't set up a secret base because it's too far from the blasted tavern which is the only place you'll find people willing to roleplay.

Totally untrue.

Quote from: Miradus on June 14, 2016, 08:46:00 PM
Largely, I think, because your main method of antagonizing people in plots is going to be to go sit in the Gaj and be an ass. At least that's the most "plot" I've seen thus far.

You can't go set up a villainous lair and have your minions go do things for you. You can't set up a secret base because it's too far from the blasted tavern which is the only place you'll find people willing to roleplay.

Eh.  This isn't really true.  Not only are there quit-save rooms out there, there's even a clan that could easily support a little raiding as a thing.

Moar mantis,  Oh and Gith as players.

You mean to say that this sort of thing actually happens? Without the collaboration of a handful of guys on AIM sharing info and planning together?

Not a sponsored role or a clanned thing, but some random guy who roles up a character and becomes part of the actual game lore as a villain? Not just some guy who goes on a stabbing spree in the Rinth for a week?

I'm encouraged and waiting to hear the tale. If you say "find out IC" I will be sorely disappointed, as I will if you relate to me something awesome that happened in 1998.

To be frank, it may be my playstyle that leads me to not see these things happening. I spend a lot of time in the wilderness with the majority of my characters.

However, to relate the sad tale, when I first started I was very encouraged that I could do anything in the game world. But then as I grew a little bit and gained game knowledge, I started asking questions.

"I just branched wagonmaking skills! Can I build my own wagon and travel around?" No. Not unless you're in a clan and have your clan leader's permission. And even then they park their wagons except for special events.

"I have ridiculous amounts of coin. Can I start my own merchant house?" No.

"Can I lead trade caravans to and from the cities?" Yes, but the NPC merchants will only buy 5 items from you at a time. So your trade caravan isn't a string of inix, it's a backpack.

"But if I find a player merchant I could?" Sure. Found a player merchant of a house and they said no, they wouldn't buy from me because when they wanted something they just sent their wagon up to get it. Would I like to join their house as a crafter I would get free food and water in exchange for grinding out their stuff all day. Would I get my own private quarters with which to store these 10 packs full of sid I made as an indie merchant? No.

"Can I buy my own skimmer and become a skimmer captain?" Yes, but that part of the game is buggy as all get out and you'll die either when you stand up or when you run into a monster that you couldn't handle by yourself in ten thousand hours played.

So I began to think that maybe other people would make an impact, but not really me as an independent. However, to date, I haven't seen anything emerge. Nothing on the rumor boards except for rumors about famous people I never heard of who have mysteriously died, or the occasional spice-tasting party. I have begun to kind of have my doubts about the ability of a non-social, independent without staff support or ten friends on AIM to actually have any impact on the game world beyond a very well-geared corpse rotting in the wilderness.

Quote from: Miradus on June 14, 2016, 08:58:39 PM
You mean to say that this sort of thing actually happens? Without the collaboration of a handful of guys on AIM sharing info and planning together?

It's often a healthy mix of both.

Your other post is what I would call Armageddon's "white" lie. It kinda promises you that you can do all of these things but you really can't, unless all of the moons align perfectly and you are the Destined Child (you aren't)

Well, as a goal I am trying to focus more on characters with some longevity (particularly now that I have so much of the game world mapped) and also with backgrounds which would interface a little more smoothly with other characters. So we'll see if it's really as static as I've come to believe. I have an open mind thus far.

Quote from: Miradus on June 14, 2016, 08:58:39 PM
You mean to say that this sort of thing actually happens? Without the collaboration of a handful of guys on AIM sharing info and planning together?

Not a sponsored role or a clanned thing, but some random guy who roles up a character and becomes part of the actual game lore as a villain? Not just some guy who goes on a stabbing spree in the Rinth for a week?

I'm encouraged and waiting to hear the tale. If you say "find out IC" I will be sorely disappointed, as I will if you relate to me something awesome that happened in 1998.

Let see,  it was two years ago I reckon, that the whole thing ended.  A bad guy villan set up a whole camp with a number of other villans  (of course none of them saw themselves this way. I both played as a part of the villan group and then had another PC get ganked by said bad guy/group. It was a big group and went on for some time.

And there was another smaller group that went on for a very long time, about the same period.  None of them clanned. More recently I knew of an indy villan that roamed the Table lands, but I think her days ended with the <redacted>.

And within the last 18 months the whole <redacted> Trading Company..unclanned and had a large group active for a long time.

However if you want a drive through window indy, that is plug and play complete with the SUPER PLOTS expansion module and max killer mod from Nexus..you will be disappointed.  If you want to make a dent in the world, then it will take some time and planning on YOUR part.

And in clans it is not at all the roll call special app leaders that spin/run all the plots.  Not at all.

Quote from: Miradus on June 14, 2016, 09:09:12 PM"I just branched wagonmaking skills! Can I build my own wagon and travel around?" No. Not unless you're in a clan and have your clan leader's permission. And even then they park their wagons except for special events.

It's not currently possible to make your own wagon and getting a wagon is HARD. I know staff had worked on changing this years ago, but the same suffered a massive crash/data loss that wiped everything out. I don't think it was picked up since then. So getting a wagon right now is, yes, pretty much impossible unless you're with a House, and even then, it would be difficult.

However, clans don't always just park their wagons to take out for special events. The Merchant Houses will travel with them to cross the desert and go from civilized area to civilized area. The Noble Houses and Militia don't take their wagons out as much because they tend to travel and need them less. So basically, everyone takes their wagons out as much as is ICly needed.

Quote"I have ridiculous amounts of coin. Can I start my own merchant house?" No.

You CAN start your own merchant house, but it needs more then coin alone. It needs coin, dedication, and social influence, rather then coin alone.

I find this reasonable, because coin alone is stupidly easy to get in Armageddon if you know how. If coin alone was the only barrier for a lot of things, the same would get out of whack pretty quickly.

Quote"Can I lead trade caravans to and from the cities?" Yes, but the NPC merchants will only buy 5 items from you at a time. So your trade caravan isn't a string of inix, it's a backpack.

"But if I find a player merchant I could?" Sure. Found a player merchant of a house and they said no, they wouldn't buy from me because when they wanted something they just sent their wagon up to get it. Would I like to join their house as a crafter I would get free food and water in exchange for grinding out their stuff all day. Would I get my own private quarters with which to store these 10 packs full of sid I made as an indie merchant? No.

Well, Merchant Houses DO ICly have their own people to get them things. I've also seen the Byn used a lot, for Noble Houses and the like. However, I've ALSO seen people who can be trusted but have no special affiliations used to get a variety of things (usually raw goods) or deliver things (usually scrolls). The trick is that you need to be deemed trustworthy and dependable.

It's very possible to run trips between civilized places and make a lot of coin trading crafted goods, as well, even with the five-item limit. I guess it just depends on what your goal is.

Quote"Can I buy my own skimmer and become a skimmer captain?" Yes, but that part of the game is buggy as all get out and you'll die either when you stand up or when you run into a monster that you couldn't handle by yourself in ten thousand hours played.

Well, the Silt Sea is meant to be dangerous. It's still possible to run a silt skimmer crew, especially if you get the right people. There was a mul who ran a pretty widely-known crew, and he traded with Merchant Houses, people north and south (gaining the awareness of templars in both cities), and so on.

Dangerous, but very doable, because people have done it successfully.

QuoteSo I began to think that maybe other people would make an impact, but not really me as an independent. However, to date, I haven't seen anything emerge. Nothing on the rumor boards except for rumors about famous people I never heard of who have mysteriously died, or the occasional spice-tasting party. I have begun to kind of have my doubts about the ability of a non-social, independent without staff support or ten friends on AIM to actually have any impact on the game world beyond a very well-geared corpse rotting in the wilderness.

A lot of things that happen won't be widely-accessible to lots of people. Why? People generally don't want everyone knowing their business. I can tell you that there is a lot of intense stuff that has happened or is happening with GMH, Allanaki Nobles, the Tablelands, and so on. It's just all relative to where you are and what you're doing.

It also depends on what players are trying to accomplish and are working towards. If nobody is trying for big things, you won't see player driven big things. If they are trying for big things, it will still take a very long time to see results. In my experience, these delays to accomplishing things are usually a result of players you're trying to work with not doing what they're supposed to, rather then staff.

Independent people have less impact on the game, unless they have social connections or develop resources. Clanned people have a much better standpoint, because their House has resources that can be commanded and utilized, both virtually and actually.

Those are expected constraints I am willing to work within.

Looking at the other post, I keep thinking, "That's a LOT of stuff for one character to hear about."

I'd like to see new locales and new factions to shake things up.

In particular, the Driath is in dire need of sprucing up, it's the centerpiece of the game and the most boring zone by far.  All kinds of cool things could be added to it.  Encampments, ruined fortresses, hostile tribes, subterranean glowing mushroom forests, etc. etc.

We need more things to do than the same old same old.

Quote from: Erythil on June 14, 2016, 10:28:54 PM
I'd like to see new locales and new factions to shake things up.

In particular, the Driath is in dire need of sprucing up, it's the centerpiece of the game and the most boring zone by far.  All kinds of cool things could be added to it.  Encampments, ruined fortresses, hostile tribes, subterranean glowing mushroom forests, etc. etc.

We need more things to do than the same old same old.

I think that having the virtual world be more active allows PCs to react and plot better to it. Some external change in the world can motivate a lot more PC interaction, be strife or cooperation. I don't things need to be constantly changing, but having a specific event or change happen that players can react to is good.

That said, I think this sometimes does happen and gets ignored by PCs.

How is this possible? Elkrosians were removed.

(https://cinemarant.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/ba-dum-tss.gif?w=774)

I don't think it's about playing an antagonist or causing havoc or anything an individual character can accomplish.

There haven't been any world changing events in a while, likely due to the emphasis on guild/subguild updates and other coded goodies we've seen lately. Most world changing events require staff, plain and simple. There's not a whole lot an individual character can do on that level. An earthquake that devastates a region of the game, destroying a part of it and opening up new caverns and tunnels and ancient ruins probably requires a pretty sizable effort. Though I would love to see something like this take place :)

There are some lesser steps that could be taken to help fix some of the staticky elements of the game. For example the removal and replacement of many of Allanak's fossil NPCs. Removing as little as ten wandering NPCs and replacing them with new ones would change the overall backdrop immensely, I feel. Just walking around the city would make it feel refreshed and like the constantly changing beast a major civilization should be. It would have less of that 1994 feel, to me. Another senate meeting would surely generate some excitement as well, particularly if it included realistic proposals for minor changes in the city (this House wants to rename Caravan Road, that House wants to ban the possession of crossbows without a permit, etc).

It doesn't have to be a huge, major overhaul to bring that spark of change into the world, I don't think.

Quote from: Suhuy on June 15, 2016, 02:04:25 AM
There are some lesser steps that could be taken to help fix some of the staticky elements of the game. For example the removal and replacement of many of Allanak's fossil NPCs. Removing as little as ten wandering NPCs and replacing them with new ones would change the overall backdrop immensely, I feel. Just walking around the city would make it feel refreshed and like the constantly changing beast a major civilization should be. It would have less of that 1994 feel, to me. Another senate meeting would surely generate some excitement as well, particularly if it included realistic proposals for minor changes in the city (this House wants to rename Caravan Road, that House wants to ban the possession of crossbows without a permit, etc).

I think these are fantastic ideas and would certainly help keep things fresh, while not turning the game on its head.

Quote from: Taven on June 14, 2016, 11:00:37 PM
I think that having the virtual world be more active allows PCs to react and plot better to it. Some external change in the world can motivate a lot more PC interaction, be strife or cooperation. I don't things need to be constantly changing, but having a specific event or change happen that players can react to is good.

That said, I think this sometimes does happen and gets ignored by PCs.

I think this is one root cause to the problem.  But isn't the focus right now on the Tablelands not the Driath?

But, if Allanak is in the Driath (which I forget), we could do this:

Quote from: dravage on June 15, 2016, 06:21:24 AM

Quote from: Suhuy on June 15, 2016, 02:04:25 AM
There are some lesser steps that could be taken to help fix some of the staticky elements of the game. For example the removal and replacement of many of Allanak's fossil NPCs. Removing as little as ten wandering NPCs and replacing them with new ones would change the overall backdrop immensely, I feel. Just walking around the city would make it feel refreshed and like the constantly changing beast a major civilization should be. It would have less of that 1994 feel, to me. Another senate meeting would surely generate some excitement as well, particularly if it included realistic proposals for minor changes in the city (this House wants to rename Caravan Road, that House wants to ban the possession of crossbows without a permit, etc).

I think these are fantastic ideas and would certainly help keep things fresh, while not turning the game on its head.

And I agree, I think we need to freshen up Allanak and other places.  Perhaps, have more regular senate meetings where Merchant Houses' PCs do interact with the Nobles' PC to make new laws and see them enforced.  (Or Noble to Noble interaction also)

I think the game was performing much better when two 'major' cities were open to play.
However.
I  do not think Tuluk should be reopened, as there are very significant plot reasons as to why that should not be.
Instead, a closer foe should be re-awakened. A beast, long-hidden, should be revealed. Not a mere creature, or a mere monster struck down by the burdening bash of a brute, but must be toppled by legions backed by politicians lead by kings.
#STEINAL2016

Quote from: Barsook on June 15, 2016, 07:02:48 AM

Quote from: Taven on June 14, 2016, 11:00:37 PM
But isn't the focus right now on the Tablelands not the Driath?

Nope. Only Indie staff (Akariel, newly returned Enthemu and myself) are focused on the Tablelands, as well as the other clans, unclanned and things that fall into our 'sphere'.

Making the virtual world less static while keeping it balanced is definitely something we're interested in and try to do (time permitting), and we're also finding/creating a load of new ways to do things codewise. There are a few projects nearly ready to roll out that I'm hoping will bring some more flavour and dynamism to the gameworld, but there will always be something else after them!  :P

I just sent in a request asking approval for something that would change the gameworld, albeit not in a super dramatic way. I wasn't told anything prohibitive or discouraging at all. I was just told to stay within some (very basic) guidelines about being true to the game world, and then go for it!

Re: removal/change of fossil NPCs: on a slight variation.

If we could even get the plethora of half-giant soldiers to stop clustering together every time a rat decides to fight back - that'd go a long way toward shifting the perception of stasis.

8 half-giant soldiers all standing on the street - then 2 rooms away, 8 more half-giant soldiers standing there. There's nothing "going on" that requires them to all be clustered like that. How about Tektolnes decides to go bowling one day and throw a few spares, pretty please?

Quote from: AdamBlue on June 15, 2016, 07:25:25 AM
I think the game was performing much better when two 'major' cities were open to play.
However.
I  do not think Tuluk should be reopened, as there are very significant plot reasons as to why that should not be.
Instead, a closer foe should be re-awakened. A beast, long-hidden, should be revealed. Not a mere creature, or a mere monster struck down by the burdening bash of a brute, but must be toppled by legions backed by politicians lead by kings.
#STEINAL2016

I dunno, when Staff decided to go with an IC series of events as to why Tuluk closed, rather than OOC, it seemed to be under the auspices of being able to come back from the decision and not necessarily make it permanent.

I'd personally be playing more if I could play in Tuluk. However I completely understand why Tuluk closed, and why spreading the playerbase thinner and Staffbase thinner does harm to the game.

I just don't enjoy playing in Allanak as much as I enjoyed playing in Tuluk, however, there is always the Labyrinth, and there is always 'Just suck it up and play anyways', which has been my mentality of late.

I'd personally enjoy seeing Tuluk re-open, just completely fucked. I'd be fine with seeing no Noble Houses survive the conflict, the Templarate withdraw and become the bogeyman, and the city become a disoriented wasteland of fiefdoms and commerce. It'd be neat to see it organically grow up from destruction, rather than be inorganically grown in a hydroponics farm.

Quote from: Reiloth on June 15, 2016, 05:36:26 PM

Quote from: AdamBlue on June 15, 2016, 07:25:25 AM
I think the game was performing much better when two 'major' cities were open to play.
However.
I  do not think Tuluk should be reopened, as there are very significant plot reasons as to why that should not be.
Instead, a closer foe should be re-awakened. A beast, long-hidden, should be revealed. Not a mere creature, or a mere monster struck down by the burdening bash of a brute, but must be toppled by legions backed by politicians lead by kings.
#STEINAL2016

I dunno, when Staff decided to go with an IC series of events as to why Tuluk closed, rather than OOC, it seemed to be under the auspices of being able to come back from the decision and not necessarily make it permanent.

I'd personally be playing more if I could play in Tuluk. However I completely understand why Tuluk closed, and why spreading the playerbase thinner and Staffbase thinner does harm to the game.

I just don't enjoy playing in Allanak as much as I enjoyed playing in Tuluk, however, there is always the Labyrinth, and there is always 'Just suck it up and play anyways', which has been my mentality of late.

I'd personally enjoy seeing Tuluk re-open, just completely fucked. I'd be fine with seeing no Noble Houses survive the conflict, the Templarate withdraw and become the bogeyman, and the city become a disoriented wasteland of fiefdoms and commerce. It'd be neat to see it organically grow up from destruction, rather than be inorganically grown in a hydroponics farm.

Yes! A lawless city of ruins, cracking streets and weakened walls. A city of anarchy, where it doesn't matter who you are, and the only rule is that of the most fit.

A bigger Labyrinth, then.

Quote from: lostinspace on June 15, 2016, 06:44:19 PM

Quote from: Reiloth on June 15, 2016, 05:36:26 PM

Quote from: AdamBlue on June 15, 2016, 07:25:25 AM
I think the game was performing much better when two 'major' cities were open to play.
However.
I  do not think Tuluk should be reopened, as there are very significant plot reasons as to why that should not be.
Instead, a closer foe should be re-awakened. A beast, long-hidden, should be revealed. Not a mere creature, or a mere monster struck down by the burdening bash of a brute, but must be toppled by legions backed by politicians lead by kings.
#STEINAL2016

I dunno, when Staff decided to go with an IC series of events as to why Tuluk closed, rather than OOC, it seemed to be under the auspices of being able to come back from the decision and not necessarily make it permanent.

I'd personally be playing more if I could play in Tuluk. However I completely understand why Tuluk closed, and why spreading the playerbase thinner and Staffbase thinner does harm to the game.

I just don't enjoy playing in Allanak as much as I enjoyed playing in Tuluk, however, there is always the Labyrinth, and there is always 'Just suck it up and play anyways', which has been my mentality of late.

I'd personally enjoy seeing Tuluk re-open, just completely fucked. I'd be fine with seeing no Noble Houses survive the conflict, the Templarate withdraw and become the bogeyman, and the city become a disoriented wasteland of fiefdoms and commerce. It'd be neat to see it organically grow up from destruction, rather than be inorganically grown in a hydroponics farm.

Yes! A lawless city of ruins, cracking streets and weakened walls. A city of anarchy, where it doesn't matter who you are, and the only rule is that of the most fit.

Not sure who would really want to live there, from a VNPC standpoint. If there is no safety and everyone is prey all the time, then people would go live elsewhere. And if no non- stealth assassin thief type PCs want to live there because they will get ganked out of chargen, I suppose the stealthy assassin thief types will not have much fun either.

What would be better is a city in districts each of which is  run and policed by a different GMH, with another district or two left for PCs to dominate through player run plots.

And as we all know, people love playing in the Labyrinth, of which the population positively dwarfs Allanak proper's.

I would actually- and I can't believe I'm saying this- I would actually be okay with opening Tuluk and closing down Allanak. And just rotating that shit back and forth every 6 months.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 15, 2016, 08:48:50 PM
I would actually- and I can't believe I'm saying this- I would actually be okay with opening Tuluk and closing down Allanak. And just rotating that shit back and forth every 6 months.

You take that back

Quote from: Norcal on June 15, 2016, 08:32:58 PM
Not sure who would really want to live there, from a VNPC standpoint. If there is no safety and everyone is prey all the time, then people would go live elsewhere. And if no non- stealth assassin thief type PCs want to live there because they will get ganked out of chargen, I suppose the stealthy assassin thief types will not have much fun either.

What would be better is a city in districts each of which is  run and policed by a different GMH, with another district or two left for PCs to dominate through player run plots.

Replace GMH with crime syndicate, raider encampments, literally anything other than GMH and you have my attention, otherwise I feel it's just going to end up as more different Luir's, and I pretty much hate Luir's.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 15, 2016, 08:48:50 PM
I would actually- and I can't believe I'm saying this- I would actually be okay with opening Tuluk and closing down Allanak. And just rotating that shit back and forth every 6 months.

I agree but that would too much work for everyone.

Quote from: lostinspace on June 15, 2016, 09:03:38 PM

Quote from: Norcal on June 15, 2016, 08:32:58 PM
Not sure who would really want to live there, from a VNPC standpoint. If there is no safety and everyone is prey all the time, then people would go live elsewhere. And if no non- stealth assassin thief type PCs want to live there because they will get ganked out of chargen, I suppose the stealthy assassin thief types will not have much fun either.

What would be better is a city in districts each of which is  run and policed by a different GMH, with another district or two left for PCs to dominate through player run plots.

Replace GMH with crime syndicate, raider encampments, literally anything other than GMH and you have my attention, otherwise I feel it's just going to end up as more different Luir's, and I pretty much hate Luir's.

+1, maybe we do need a new settlement for this.

Quote from: TheWanderer on June 15, 2016, 07:07:00 PM
A bigger Labyrinth, then.

This is a great idea. Make the labyrinth more of a place for common folk.
Hm... or is it just people end up finding ways to keep themselves out of the 'rinth.
Maybe like /really/ dangerous apartments where no one cares. It might even be free space without keys. (this is crazy, I know)

encourage people to join this world or... I dunno. I've never actually played extensively in the rinth yet. I have no experience or suggestions to give.

Quote from: Chettaman on June 15, 2016, 11:07:36 PM
Maybe like /really/ dangerous apartments where no one cares. It might even be free space without keys. (this is crazy, I know)

Didn't Tuluk have this in the Warrens, but with locked doors but access to other rooms?  But still, nice idea.

Edit: Grammar

Quote from: Barsook on June 15, 2016, 11:09:46 PM

Quote from: Chettaman on June 15, 2016, 11:07:36 PM
Maybe like /really/ dangerous apartments where no one cares. It might even be free space without keys. (this is crazy, I know)

Did Tuluk have this in the Warrens, but with locked doors but access to other rooms?  But still, nice idea.

I think the rinth should have some 'save' rooms with minimal storage space (no couches, please!) and no doors or locks.

There used to be one save room in the rinth, sort of tucked back in the corner, but completely accessible to anyone.  I used it to store coins and baking goods, and eventually the gang used it to store stuff they'd stolen.  But anyone could've taken from it, and, in fact, once someone did, and we went out and beat the shit out of them.

I was sad to see that the save room had been removed.

No, no. I was just pointing out that we basically already have a lawless city IG. I don't really like the idea of making it bigger because it's a waste of staff resources.

The reason people don't naturally gravitate to the Labyrinth is because it's a tremendously risky place to play. While it's certainly brutal and sufficiently grim, it doesn't give characters a lot of room to breathe. I mean, three people tried to backstab my first character within the first few days, and it devolves into a game of hide and sneak to safety. It takes the right group of players to make it an enjoyable experience (though this could be said for anything) and you're constantly worried they'll fall victim to some random guy training his skills.

I like the concept of a lawless city, but it's not sensible for a number of reasons and when the initial luster wears off, people will go to safer pastures.

My idea of evolving the world is the implementation of simple consequences. For example, it's been about a RL year since the Exalted Lord debacle and I've noticed no discernible changes to the way of life or Allanak as a whole since. After this huge event, it feels like the same exact city I've been playing in since day one. That's why the game feels so static to some.

If we throw another HRPT, it should make a splash and continue rippling. You need long-term plans, not short bursts of excitement that dissipate into nothingness.

Don't just change the geography. Organically change how the game is played.

Quote from: TheWanderer on June 15, 2016, 11:36:58 PM
Don't just change the geography. Organically change how the game is played.

I think that is what the players and staff is trying to do, but I just don't feel it.  Hence why I brought this topic.  Maybe I just don't notice it.

or maybe it's this:

Quote from: TheWanderer on June 15, 2016, 11:33:52 PM
If we throw another HRPT, it should make a splash and continue rippling. You need long-term plans, not short bursts of excitement that dissipate into nothingness.

Which I did point out that the ripple died with the last one, at least in Tuluk.

I found the rinth to be incredibly boring to play in. Except on the rare times when it wasn't incredibly boring and it was incredibly risky. And that would last for maybe an hour and then go back to being incredibly boring.

It's about 30 rooms or so and then you are supposed to pick HALF of that to limit your activities to. Your gameworld is scaled down to about 15 rooms and a tavern unless you break protocol and go hang out elsewhere, which you're pretty much forced to do if you don't want to die of boredom.

It's way more interesting to play a character FROM the 'rinth as opposed to playing one IN the 'rinth.

Mods, can we have a split, one topic for the Rinth.  I think we have derailed the topic.

.

i've always thought it's been to static, back the first time I played waaay back when I was a teen it felt more alive.
Not through staff but the players themselves, the way they added to it. You didn't have a lot of people hiding out in compounds, making things all day, you had people grabbing everyone to go out and explore. You had them getting into trouble, you had mean people that where showing you how much they disliked your sharp ears, or your partially sharp ears. You had raiders more then willing tor raid people, and then vanish for a little while as raiders do. Then you had staff coming along to really mess you up, and make you run for your lives.

Nowadays it just seems like for the most part you here about house x from the ig boards, because they seem to all be hiding away, training, training, training, and when a raider does sprout up, (pc raider, not the other kinds) Usually they end up being hunted and killed swiftly, which leads to noone wanting to play raiders, or lapses of time where an indie raider is training up skills to be able to raid people. So far my fav pc wasn't even one my toon liked, but a sharp ear raider, that was always causing trouble in one way or another.

and yes there are things going on, alooot of things ig that most people don't even see, know about, because they are hiding themselves away. or maybe it just seems that way to me. *goes back to hiding*

Just as a note:

Quote from: Clavis on June 16, 2016, 04:15:29 PM
i've always thought it's been to static, back the first time I played waaay back when I was a teen it felt more alive.
Not through staff but the players themselves, the way they added to it. You didn't have a lot of people hiding out in compounds, making things all day, you had people grabbing everyone to go out and explore. You had them getting into trouble, you had mean people that where showing you how much they disliked your sharp ears, or your partially sharp ears. You had raiders more then willing tor raid people, and then vanish for a little while as raiders do. Then you had staff coming along to really mess you up, and make you run for your lives.

Nowadays it just seems like for the most part you here about house x from the ig boards, because they seem to all be hiding away, training, training, training, and when a raider does sprout up, (pc raider, not the other kinds) Usually they end up being hunted and killed swiftly, which leads to noone wanting to play raiders, or lapses of time where an indie raider is training up skills to be able to raid people. So far my fav pc wasn't even one my toon liked, but a sharp ear raider, that was always causing trouble in one way or another.

and yes there are things going on, alooot of things ig that most people don't even see, know about, because they are hiding themselves away. or maybe it just seems that way to me. *goes back to hiding*

I played a burglar because people were complaining that burglars weren't viable.  I played a raider because people were complaining that raiders weren't viable.  I'm currently playing something that I'd wanted to play for awhile...but afterwards, I'll go back to giving you guys someone to hate IC, don't worry!

My experience with the Labrinth:
I met like 2 people out of a week of play maybe? Fell like 15 times, passed out like 10, no one actually found me to loot/kill me in those times, weird huh?
It was really boring. It was like a dungeon crawl without the dungeon and twice the crawl with half the experience.


I do think the world is a bit static and it might be why I stopped playing. I've been getting real urges to play D&D/games I can actually change/make a difference/do things in as opposed to this. This isn't a gut punch at the game and I don't want/still expect someone to reply with "WELL IF YOU DO X X AND X AND SPEND HALF YOUR LIFE DOING X YOU CAN CHANGE THE GAME" I'm just pointing out there is a huge difference between what you can accomplish in a session or life time in Arm than even a session, and of course, life time in D&D.



But how do you fix it? How does Grumpy Jihelu suggest fixing the problem?
I dunno.

I feel like people are for change but in game people are adamant about sticking to the status quo because change is bad in societies like this, and the people who aren't are just crazy or dwarves or breeds freaking out or dirty gickers.


"Because Tuluk is closed, the staff started to focus on the Tablelands, and again no news of what is happening is reaching other places of the Known.  I don't if the idea of news could help to create plots and even change the world in a larger scale."
I've never heard of anything about the Tablelands. I think I bothered to look at Luir's rumor board once and either there was something there that didn't catch my eye or maybe seeing something about the Mantis/Gith every ten minutes is just boring to me. :News flash: "Mantis raid on X few/many/none dead shocking news" isn't that shocking. It's just a spider event at that point with less legs.

Quote from: Miradus on June 14, 2016, 08:46:00 PM
Largely, I think, because your main method of antagonizing people in plots is going to be to go sit in the Gaj and be an ass. At least that's the most "plot" I've seen thus far.

You can't go set up a villainous lair and have your minions go do things for you. You can't set up a secret base because it's too far from the blasted tavern which is the only place you'll find people willing to roleplay.

One time... I turned a very ordinary sales person into a "wild" person, because they might of died because something they had no part in.
This same character was stalked by a secret plot-starter and was "forced" or was lead to join this secret plot-starter's group of plot-pawns. I imagine they did a great deal of things, but from what I managed to see what they were doing, my entire idea of armageddon was uh... expanded on.

Like I said once before, I usually play really ordinary mundane characters and even with this secret group, I was still doing really mundane things. It was comical, because everyone in the group was an ordinary person doing extraordinary things. And it was endearing to see them squatting to poop like me.

Quote from: Jihelu on June 16, 2016, 05:01:33 PM
"Because Tuluk is closed, the staff started to focus on the Tablelands, and again no news of what is happening is reaching other places of the Known.  I don't if the idea of news could help to create plots and even change the world in a larger scale."
I've never heard of anything about the Tablelands. I think I bothered to look at Luir's rumor board once and either there was something there that didn't catch my eye or maybe seeing something about the Mantis/Gith every ten minutes is just boring to me. :News flash: "Mantis raid on X few/many/none dead shocking news" isn't that shocking. It's just a spider event at that point with less legs.

There was a lot going on with the tablelands plots, and the geography of the tablelands certainly DID change as a result -- but a lot of it didn't trickle outside of the tablelands and the clans involved there.  I think this could be said for a lot of the big plots that go on: they start inside a clan or set of clans and, fingers crossed, move out from there.

(ETA: I do think a universal plot is still missing.  I could be wrong, but in the last two months playing inside Allanak, other than some old rumor board posts, I haven't seen much evidence of a universal plot accessible to a common citizen, e.g., the classic Nak vs. Tuluk plot that ruled the roost when I first started playing.  Perhaps it's there in the AoD clan and they are playing their cards close to their chest.)

My big beef about the tablelands was not about not hearing about in Allanak or anything like that.  That's well and good.

Mine was that we basically closed Tuluk, closed a bunch of clans to military personel, and removed a bunch of content in the name of consolidation...then shifted a bunch of resources and a longstanding RPT-like scenario towards what is notoriously isolated and unfriendly to outsiders.  ???

I mean...we were hitting 100 players a lot of the time in Allanak, we had a running HRPT-like environment, we had chaos and intrigue and people packed together around conflict and more conflict...and then we split it off, ended the pro-Allanak arena of activity, and spread people back out into an even less interactive relationship than the north and south was.  Then we brought back the gith (which was cool), but focused them around that isolated environment.

It was not a very streamlined, focused approach to the stated goals, basically, and felt a lot more like what we're told it is: 'We don't ask people to do anything they don't want to.'  This is well and good, I'm not for time-rape, but sometimes, just having projects go according to enthusiasm makes for a very undirected feel to things, which ultimately, I think, takes away rather than promotes a non-static feel. (It should be noted that I am in favor of static aside from special circumstances.  A bunch of players being able to do anything they want to is a recipe for a golden age of advancement in the game and momentous game-world shifts, thus removing the gameworld that everyone knows and enjoys as is).

Quote from: Armaddict on June 16, 2016, 06:03:59 PM
My big beef about the tablelands was not about not hearing about in Allanak or anything like that.  That's well and good.

Mine was that we basically closed Tuluk, closed a bunch of clans to military personel, and removed a bunch of content in the name of consolidation...then shifted a bunch of resources and a longstanding RPT-like scenario towards what is notoriously isolated and unfriendly to outsiders.  ???

I too share the same beef.

To give staff full credit, there were attempts to involve non-traditional actors in the Tablelands. Rather unsuccessfully, but not because of Staff. A perception of the Tablelands being isolated is a result of player actions more than anything else.

Edit: Players being risk-averse and/or incapable of swaying others to their risky viewpoint is a significant contributing factor to a static gameworld too, I suppose. Not dominant, but significant.

Guys, I don't know why you think that a large Tablelands plot suddenly means that there's no plots anywhere else. Every area has their own staff team. The Indie staff throwing a big RPT doesn't suddenly mean that other areas have less attention, because everywhere else still has the exact same amount of staff support.

If you're not in the Tablelands or actively seeking out information, then no, you might not hear about the plot there. I can tell you that Allanak did have minimal involvement in it, and kept an eye to see if it developed further. I can tell you that Luirs and multiple tribes were involved.

The plot itself had an interesting start. It had challenges, however. I believe that several staff were drawn away from RL. Likewise, the tribes had activity challenges. This meant that getting things moving was difficult. However, it did still have an impact, even if it wasn't what it might have been.

That wasn't what was said, Taven, but I'm sure you realize that.

It was a move involving unpopular decisions in the name of consolidation (well, some unpopular ones.  Pro-allanakis were pretty happy :P).  Which worked.  We were consolidated, we had big events going down.  But then we split it back up, to a less popular area than before for an undetermined reason.  It ended up working out poorly.

Likewise, it's not 'They're getting attention and we're not', it's 'Why'd we consolidate only to separate again and split up resources again?  Why'd we do it to a less popular area?'  It's less 'OHHH, TABLELANDS SUCKS AND FAILED!' and more about 'What exactly are we trying to accomplish, because we seem to be fighting our own stated path of progression'.

Edit:  Er, which is not to be argumentative and derail.  I just think you misread what the point was and had a good response to...what wasn't being said.  I was just saying that when we make our projects and progress in this way, it can indeed feel like things aren't really moving forward in any way.

Quote from: Armaddict on June 16, 2016, 07:20:13 PM
Likewise, it's not 'They're getting attention and we're not', it's 'Why'd we consolidate only to separate again and split up resources again?  Why'd we do it to a less popular area?'  It's less 'OHHH, TABLELANDS SUCKS AND FAILED!' and more about 'What exactly are we trying to accomplish, because we seem to be fighting our own stated path of progression'.

Fun fact, since pretty much forever 'resources have been split up' in Armageddon. It helps keep things balanced, consistent, and let's the storytellers focus on their teams as opposed to everyone dancing on eggshells around everyone's shit while they try to make everyone happy. Teams being divided was something mostly born from players who got upset when things felt... unbalanced or inconsistent.

Because I'm curious, are new areas still being added to the game world?

On a regular basis, that is.

Well I know -that-, of course.  Though more fun fact, there used to be teams for each clan, with each team member involved in multiple clans not associated with each other (i.e. Team member in Tor, Winrothol, and the Guild), with storytellers setting up to one or two 'prime staff members' on each team who had to approve anything momentous.  The rest of the team was for communication, plots, and animations/making things react.

I brought that in the same way you did.  Neither one really contributes to me saying that we sometimes appear to fight our own stated goals.

Quote from: Armaddict on June 16, 2016, 07:20:13 PMThat wasn't what was said, Taven, but I'm sure you realize that.

It wasn't in direct response to your post at all.

Instead, it was a response various posts/sentiments in the overall thread. There's been a reoccurring theme, across multiple posts, that if staff is focusing on the tablelands, they're not focusing elsewhere.

QuoteIt was a move involving unpopular decisions in the name of consolidation (well, some unpopular ones.  Pro-allanakis were pretty happy :P).  Which worked.  We were consolidated, we had big events going down.  But then we split it back up, to a less popular area than before for an undetermined reason.  It ended up working out poorly.

Likewise, it's not 'They're getting attention and we're not', it's 'Why'd we consolidate only to separate again and split up resources again?  Why'd we do it to a less popular area?'  It's less 'OHHH, TABLELANDS SUCKS AND FAILED!' and more about 'What exactly are we trying to accomplish, because we seem to be fighting our own stated path of progression'.

Edit:  Er, which is not to be argumentative and derail.  I just think you misread what the point was and had a good response to...what wasn't being said.  I was just saying that when we make our projects and progress in this way, it can indeed feel like things aren't really moving forward in any way.

I understand what you're trying to get it, I'm just not sure the Tablelands is a good example. The Tablelands has long been a playable area, so continuing to give support to a playable area wouldn't be against the stated goals. There's still no north, so other areas get more attention. Theoretically, the Tablelands and Luirs area helps with player cycling. You can't alternate play between north and south now, but you can alternate play between south and Luirs/tribals.

I think we really need to look at the idea of "consolidation" in general. Our player numbers have been dropping progressively lower since the decision to close Tuluk was made. Basically, a huge portion of the game was yanked out of existence from a play perspective, cutting off opportunities for interaction and exploring a culture very different from Allanak.

I don't think that other areas (tribals, Luirs, Storm) have significantly benefited from Tuluk's close, player population wise. With, of course, the exception that Red Storm has a new clan to play in.

Quote from: Miradus on June 16, 2016, 08:02:40 PM
Because I'm curious, are new areas still being added to the game world?

On a regular basis, that is.

I believe that it's more that areas that already exist have had some expansion and added rooms.

If you look through the announcements, you'll also see that a lot of things have been added to fix or expand options, not in terms of exploring rooms, but in terms of adding depth and functionality to what's already there.

QuoteIt wasn't in direct response to your post at all

Mm, it was talking about enough things close to mine that I thought it was.  My mistake then!

QuoteI don't think that other areas (tribals, Luirs, Storm) have significantly benefited from Tuluk's close, player population wise. With, of course, the exception that Red Storm has a new clan to play in.

I agree with this, much as I don't want to.  When I heard the announcement I thought of Rebellion-era northlands.  In the current form, there seems to be too little substance in the northlands to bring about much of that particular feel unless we have a bunch of players who...start raiding for no reason, to make it into the badlands-battle-royale for rich hunting grounds that it was.

Quote from: Armaddict on June 16, 2016, 09:09:49 PM

QuoteI don't think that other areas (tribals, Luirs, Storm) have significantly benefited from Tuluk's close, player population wise. With, of course, the exception that Red Storm has a new clan to play in.

I agree with this, much as I don't want to.  When I heard the announcement I thought of Rebellion-era northlands.  In the current form, there seems to be too little substance in the northlands to bring about much of that particular feel unless we have a bunch of players who...start raiding for no reason, to make it into the badlands-battle-royale for rich hunting grounds that it was.

The north, as it stands, isn't designed to have players. Morin's has minimal concessions for the die-hards that want to stay there, put in about a RL year ago. There are no apartments. Morin's is largely designed for short visits. You buy things, and then you leave.

The entire Gol exists as a place where people have trouble even responding ICly, because we don't know what the IC is. Does Tuluk regularly virtually patrol? Or are they all in the city occupied? This uncertainty of the IC status has largely turned the north into a glorified hunting preserve. Staff aren't around to animate often and there's no PC presence. No patrolling soldiers, no noble House partisans or employees in the scrub. By in large, the most common individual in the north isn't a northerner, it's a southerner who wants wood.

I got their northie wood right here.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 16, 2016, 09:57:51 PM
I got their northie wood right here.

use axe

Ya know... I ran into another pretty unbelievable plot once before too. I tried sharing it and sounded like a crazy person in game and rightly so, but uh... If I'm not wrong it's still brewing somewhere.  Trust me, when it happens everyone will know.

but uh... I can't even tip-toe around this one without getting in trouble. My character stumbled into it completely by chance ... I think.

Back to the idea of how to make the world less static - I think when I said that we should improve the 'rinth, which I meant, I also meant to compare it to the rest of allanak. While the down trodden certainly exist in the labyrinth, they certainly exist south of the narrows. The only difference is law enforcement, right?
I also said that I have little to no experience so I can't really give advice, but I just feel like people don't notice the similarities of both worlds. The "law" as you might say, is just different in these lands. ... what was my point?
I think I started babbling and none of that has to do with making the world less static.

There are plots happening in Allanak and in other spots. They are not the big HRPT things that the tribal staff ran a few months back, yet they are there.

There are certain PCs in game now who,  from my perspective, are doing their best to get the plots out of the backroom and into the lap of the average player.

WE NEED MORE OF THESE TYPES OF LEADERS.

Then the little plot suddenly becomes much bigger. Push becomes shove becomes...fill in the blank.

I think some staff and certainly some leadership players are extremely conservative. Plots are often too hush hush and folks don't want to take the risks of conflict. Or staff might not want to support it. On that point I am only speculating.

Another problem at the present moment is that it is summer and some staff are off having lives. Only some though. Which means there are not enough hands for the work and things kind of slow down.  And we still do not know what they already have up their sleeves and is coming soon.

So in the mean time..it falls to the playerbase to spice things up. Get spicin'!

Quote from: Norcal on June 18, 2016, 04:43:23 PM
Plots are often too hush hush and folks don't want to take the risks of conflict. Or staff might not want to support it. On that point I am only speculating.

I rather well remember that at one point, Jingo was ICly told off for using whisper rather than psi to tell someone something. So, it happens.

Why I think the world feels static to some players.

I think the single, biggest problem with the playerbase at large is their unwillingness to take risks. Be willing to walk your pc into conflict, sometimes your enemies have the upper hand, allow your pc to lose and feel awesome that their story came to a close with intrigue, murder, betrayal, corruption. Hanging on and eventually getting murdered by Rantarri #742 is not the endings I remember most, I remember being betrayed by my closest friends, lovers, my employer. I remember a psionic obsessing over my pc and twisting my thoughts into a weird obsession about something that eventually led me into their trap. I remember conflict and epic stories of betrayal, I remember conflict.

Take risks, let the story go, have your pc's make bad decisions and watch something interesting become of it. The world feels much less static then. I think I only ever missed one hrpt in the past, I remember small snapshots from them and cool moments, but by far the things that have made the world come alive to me are the interesting conflicts driven by players. So stop being boring.  :P

I get fed a plot stringer and I'm all like, "Oooo! I get to do something!" and within 24 hours EVERYTIME I've beetled, or ran into a mekillot, or lost link in bahamet territory to log back on stunned.

Mama says plots are the devil.

Quote from: Majikal on June 18, 2016, 05:54:11 PM
Take risks, let the story go, have your pc's make bad decisions and watch something interesting become of it. The world feels much less static then. I think I only ever missed one hrpt in the past, I remember small snapshots from them and cool moments, but by far the things that have made the world come alive to me are the interesting conflicts driven by players. So stop being boring.  :P

This.  It can be really hard to let your character be manipulated or to take risks generally, but many of the very fun times I've had in the game (and some of the best deaths I've had) have come from letting someone use my character's flaws to my disadvantage.

I don't want to go into too much detail, but I can assure people that allanak was getting alot of information about what was going on in the tablelands. Could that information have been slightly more open to the general public, on IC boards, yes, but for those interested, they only needed to travel to luirs to get all the information they wanted. This isn't even mentioning how much effort was being put to attract people to get involved ICly and OOCly, and for good reason because the allanak leadership had no reason to care at all.


In fact much of the leadership in allanak had a good idea of all the events that were going on. But again, they didn't care, and why would they care? They already won.  The irony here is this highlights one of the biggest 'issues' with the game. And thats with the current state of Allanak. Its been said this before, allanak is at the peak of decadence. It is the current state of this last untouchable city that makes the entire world feel static.


ICly allanak has won. There are no threats it needs to give a shit about currently. A castle full of monsters is nothing more than a boring chore left to disposable people. High society in allanak gives more of a shit about what colour of shoes to wear tomorrow then finding long lost treasure or resources outside the city.  I remember I was trying to offer a noble information, goods, rare resources in exchange for some protection...not interested in the least.

Tuluk(and its nobles and leadership) had reason to be interested in what was going on around it: resources, stronger allies, new technology, or new information. They would have gotten involved, if only for a slimer of a chance to remain a step ahead of their mortal enemy allanak, who could attack at any moment with strong army and magicks. Allanak has no such fears, it barely did when Tuluk was around. Now with tuluk fighting itself, its got everything it needs. Anything involving allanak just feels petty in the grand scheme of things because it is petty. There is no need to be ambitious.

Although i think some of the changes will hopefully begin to set the stage for more dynamics within allanak, ultimately allanak needs to pay for its arrogance and decadence. Once allanak doesn't feel completely untouchable anymore, many of the things that are happening in and around allanak won't feel so petty anymore, and maybe then the leadership can focus on something other than throwing another party.

Quote from: Dresan on June 19, 2016, 12:21:25 AMICly allanak has won. There are no threats it needs to give a shit about currently. A castle full of monsters is nothing more than a boring chore left to disposable people. High society in allanak gives more of a shit about what colour of shoes to wear tomorrow then finding long lost treasure or resources outside the city.  I remember I was trying to offer a noble information, goods, rare resources in exchange for some protection...not interested in the least.

You're saying it has won against external threats. What you're neglecting to consider is the internal conflict. It's not looking at the city of Allanak, but rather the conflict between groups within the city. No noble House has won, because there are always new challenges against them. They can always continue to try to fuck over their competitors while advancing themselves.

Personally, I feel that with Tuluk's close, there was the hope that the internal conflict in Allanak would take on new dimensions. There's a lot of potential. Additionally, there's an entirely new clan that was created, external from Allanak, but providing a potential source of conflict--If the players chose to pursue it.

There's a lot of inner-House conflict right now. There's the potential for a lot more. I think that one of the problems with people thinking the world is "too static" is because they want to have a unified city against a scary outsider.

QuoteTuluk(and its nobles and leadership) had reason to be interested in what was going on around it: resources, stronger allies, new technology, or new information. They would have gotten involved, if only for a slimer of a chance to remain a step ahead of their mortal enemy allanak, who could attack at any moment with strong army and magicks. Allanak has no such fears, it barely did when Tuluk was around. Now with tuluk fighting itself, its got everything it needs. Anything involving allanak just feels petty in the grand scheme of things because it is petty. There is no need to be ambitious.

While Tuluk was focusing on acts against Allanak, you're also missing a huge portion of the inner-city workings. The noble Houses of the time were all plotting with or against each other. For example, when the cotton fields were burnt to the ground by Allanak, Dasari had to work to rebuild. Would they hire Tenneshi? Would they use Winrothol labor? Would Kassigarh approve the loan? That's one noble House with a goal, and three others trying to hope they got the best deal (Winrothol and Tenneshi wanting to be hired, Kassiargh trying to influence things because they didn't like people and wanted to stay ahead). Tuluk DID work against Allanak, but there were incredible inner-city dynamics at work, sometimes to the determent of the overall goal of war against an external foe.

QuoteAlthough i think some of the changes will hopefully begin to set the stage for more dynamics within allanak, ultimately allanak needs to pay for its arrogance and decadence. Once allanak doesn't feel completely untouchable anymore, many of the things that are happening in and around allanak won't feel so petty anymore, and maybe then the leadership can focus on something other than throwing another party.

Allanak has won against you, because you believe it is untouchable. Fact: It isn't.

When Tuluk closed, Allanak was being ripped apart by civil war as the Red Robes tried to determine who would be the next Black Robe. There were massive amounts of rioting on the streets. Anti-Allanak PCs could have taken advantage of this and pushed things further. In the past, incredible results have come from players deciding they want to screw things up. There's a PC-based reason we have no Trader's Inn. The fact is, most people OOCly assume Allanak is unbeatable and so as a result, they do not make PCs with that sort of goal.

Quote from: Dresan on June 19, 2016, 12:21:25 AM
Its been said this before, allanak is at the peak of decadence. It is the current state of this last untouchable city that makes the entire world feel static.

ICly allanak has won. There are no threats it needs to give a shit about currently. A castle full of monsters is nothing more than a boring chore left to disposable people. High society in allanak gives more of a shit about what colour of shoes to wear tomorrow then finding long lost treasure or resources outside the city.

This was true a long time ago, but far less so now. In its heyday Allanak literally owned the entire Known World. You could find NPC Allanaki soldiers in Luir's, in the Gol Krathu, the Mantis Valley and even more remote places than this. That was the time when Allanak had "won" and when it was the height of decadence. These days it's a diminished city-state, a mere shadow of what it once was with threats in every direction.

Whether people choose to play it that way or not may be different story.

Quote from: Dresan on June 19, 2016, 12:21:25 AM
only

lol

Traven, I don't disagree with you that Allanak, has some inner city workings, hopefully more now with the Templar changes. But those inner city workings feel petty. Snobs fighting over things that the general masses don't know about or don't care about. Whether one black robe takes over another means absolutely nothing to my grebber at the end of the day. The laser light show in the sky was okay I guess.

Having played in tuluk almost exclusively before the war ended, I agree with you about Tuluk's inner city workings. I remember a certain noble wanting to give out free water to the public. A little event they wanted to throw. It was stopped and this other well known fat noble from a separate house was walking around that same day the event was supposed to go on asking people if they were here about water, which the other noble failed to promise. The inner workings of Tuluk political system forced nobles to compete against each other in the public's eye, making them want more toys and resources and such, you are right it wasn't all about allanak.

In Allanak, whether the public in general is involved or knows about squabbles between the nobles doesn't matter.  The nobility are playing in their own little world where no one else matters but them, sometimes this means that the masses below them get tosses a couple quests because of their actions. Trickle down economics for plots, is not that great in my opinion.  

Allanak, its noble houses, institutions and to a certain extended the merchant houses(within allanak)  feels static and untouchable. Again my point was that its not that things (plots) aren't happening in and around the city, its just the setting and status of the city that makes everything feel like: Meh.  If allanak wasn't as big as it is, many of those smaller plots would probably mean a lot more then they do.  I fully acknowledge this is just my opinion and I assure you I am hoping to see something that makes me feel otherwise. However, these were my feelings before I took a couple months off, I haven't seen anything to make me think otherwise yet.

Oh and thank you for your constructive criticism Patuk, always encouraging to come back to this GDB, participate in the forums and get your level of feedback.

Quote from: Dresan on June 19, 2016, 05:35:49 AM
Again my point was that its not that things (plots) aren't happening in and around the city, its just the setting and status of the city that makes everything feel like: Meh.

I think that's what I'm getting from Allanak too and I think that's why it's feels static.  Or I'm playing the wrong characters at the wrong times.

Quote from: Dresan on June 19, 2016, 05:35:49 AMTraven, I don't disagree with you that Allanak, has some inner city workings, hopefully more now with the Templar changes. But those inner city workings feel petty. Snobs fighting over things that the general masses don't know about or don't care about. Whether one black robe takes over another means absolutely nothing to my grebber at the end of the day. The laser light show in the sky was okay I guess.

But that's the thing... It obviously WAS having an impact. There were dangerous, nasty magickal creatures about, rampaging the city. There was a show of utter callousness towards the commoner. The reason your vNPC was taking up and throwing firebombs is because they were VERY unhappy. Yes, the plot was more accessible if you were in a noble House, or the Atrium, or a GMH. All of these places were directly impacted and could help influence the results. But at the end of the day, Amos Grebber had a reason to be involved, too, because the city was not safe.

Once a new Exalted Lord (re: Black Robe) ascended, things calmed down. But they didn't have to. The thing is, even player of Amos Grebber doesn't want to stand against Allanak, because he's worried about dying. He doesn't want to be a rebel, because it's hard, and dangerous, and he could die. Basically, Majikal's post (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51283.msg948078.html#msg948078) sums it up fabulously.

QuoteIn Allanak, whether the public in general is involved or knows about squabbles between the nobles doesn't matter.  The nobility are playing in their own little world where no one else matters but them, sometimes this means that the masses below them get tosses a couple quests because of their actions. Trickle down economics for plots, is not that great in my opinion.

I have a hard time reading this and understanding where you're coming from, to be honest. Let's take a look at Allanak's set up:

• Templars/AoD/City      (Reasons to be involved politically, reasons to be involved externally - threats, trade, etc)
• Noble Houses      (Reasons to be involved politically)
• Merchant Houses, Atrium included      (Resource competition, external holdings, reasons to have some political involvement)
• Tzai Byn      (Directly benefiting from the needs of every other group, possibility for conflict externally and internally)
• The Guild      (Directly benefiting from needs of other groups, potential to cause conflict)
• Random unaffiliated      (Less involved with everything, because they have not earned trust and don't have more influential connections)

If you're a random nobody, you will probably see less plots. Why? Because you're giving up clan connections in favor of no rules or restrictions. You are actively choosing to limit your plot opportunities in favor of being unaffiliated. However, even an unaffiliated person can get significant connections to clan plots, if they develop the right contacts.

However, it takes a lot more work then just being in a clan does. This is by design. If you want access to the most plots, join a clan. Alternatively, work to make your own group of people and make things happen. If you're not working for it, you're not going to see anything.

QuoteAllanak, its noble houses, institutions and to a certain extended the merchant houses(within allanak)  feels static and untouchable. Again my point was that its not that things (plots) aren't happening in and around the city, its just the setting and status of the city that makes everything feel like: Meh.  If allanak wasn't as big as it is, many of those smaller plots would probably mean a lot more then they do.  I fully acknowledge this is just my opinion and I assure you I am hoping to see something that makes me feel otherwise. However, these were my feelings before I took a couple months off, I haven't seen anything to make me think otherwise yet.

Oh and thank you for your constructive criticism Patuk, always encouraging to come back to this GDB, participate in the forums and get your level of feedback.

Depending on where and how you're playing, it may feel "Meh". I'd recommend varying it up some. Try playing something else you haven't in awhile. Try approaching it with the mindset of getting involved a lot, or getting others involved a lot.

Allanak is big, and it is established. I agree that this does make it harder for things to change. But regardless of size, it wouldn't have a new thing to threaten it every single week, because that would take the enjoyment out of it. It would make it routine, and it would still be static.

If you long for the feeling of vulnerability and the dangers of the Known against you, there's opportunities for that. The most direct way to do this would be to play a tribal. See first hand how things in the Tablelands shook it all up.

Quote from: Dresan on June 19, 2016, 05:35:49 AM
Oh and thank you for your constructive criticism Patuk, always encouraging to come back to this GDB, participate in the forums and get your level of feedback.

Oh, please. This entire thread is discouraging, you're not special in this. This entire thread has come to the point where people are arguing about the amount of sweating someone needs to do before they may be graced with milk and honey from above. Things that don't involve fucking templars and whatnot? People many, many sorts never even deal with? Nah man, nobles. Nevermind that it's been said here before the damn atrium can't even keep people in. That Salarr's most recent presence on the Allanaki board has it bribing people just to join up. Getting people to suck up and be all nice to some people who were sponsored into their role, that's sure to make people appreciate the game.

Quote from: Taven on June 19, 2016, 09:13:18 AM
But at the end of the day, Amos Grebber had a reason to be involved, too, because the city was not safe.

I can't speak to much about this plot other than what my character saw.  The main thing I remember is being pretty confused about how to interpret the events from the perspective of Amos Grebber.  Why were people upset?  How could I get my character involved in that aspect of the plot?  Even though I was involved in the main fighting in the street, my character had no idea what was going on -- why were they fighting?  Things were even worse for characters who missed the animations -- some of the riots weren't even documented in rumor posts.  So some Amos Grebbers didn't even know the basics that people were rioting in the streets.

It wasn't so much a fear of dying, it was a lack of information to help inform RP.

A similar thing happened with the tablelands plot at one point.

So, suggestions?

o If you are in a clan, and a leader, you can request clarification.  But if you aren't in a clan, and not a leader...

o Rumor boards, rumor boards, rumor boards.

o Err on the side of too much information rather than too little?

o Animate a commoner vNPC/NPC to show (or even tell) the general feel (e.g., someone at the bar).

Quote from: Barsook on June 19, 2016, 09:12:17 AM

Quote from: Dresan on June 19, 2016, 05:35:49 AM
Again my point was that its not that things (plots) aren't happening in and around the city, its just the setting and status of the city that makes everything feel like: Meh.

I think that's what I'm getting from Allanak too and I think that's why it's feels static.  Or I'm playing the wrong characters at the wrong times.

So if we're all in agreement that plots are happening, what exactly do we mean by "static"?

There aren't a lot of huge changes to the city because of the size and scope, it's true. But I've already talked about how Allanak isn't invincible. You could make a PC with the goal of acting against it and stirring things up. People generally don't do that.

It feels like what people mostly want is an external threat that can be banded together against, so everyone can be on the same "team". Those plots are fine and great, but they're also comfort food plots. They're plots that people can feel good about, because it gives everyone a chance to act together and work towards something together, usually against an NPC threat. And hey--I like those plots at times too. It can be invigorating. But not every plot can be like that.

If everyone feels the world is so static, why not try to change it up? Here's some ideas:

• Make a family role with people who also want to shake things up
• Join a House, make connections, and use them to bring down the status of Houses against you
• Join a House, make connections, and then work on the type of plot you want -- Visible and impacting Amos Grebber
• Apply for a LEADER who has some radical ideas on what they want to do. Be patient, and work towards making those ideas reality.
• Work to make your own House, make connections, and get involved in plots and plans
• Play somewhere "smaller" that isn't Allanak: Tribes, Luirs, Red Storm, or a PC dedicated to the 'Rinth
• Play someone with a crazy and specific goal, which by the nature of the goal, involves drawing other people in

Any of these have a lot of options within them. There's three key things needed for success:

1. Imagination. You need to be able to imagine creative new things. Think about what you would want to see and how to make it happen. Think about a fresh, vibrant new PC concept, and how it could make the world not just less static, but invigorating.

2. Connections. Your ability to be involved, inside a clan or outside of it, leader or minion, is directly correlated with what connections you can make. If you can convince other people that what you're trying to is worthwhile, then you're a lot more likely to see things happen. If you don't have the connections, you don't have the resources, and this often means you won't succeed. Often times this is a large obstacle, because it doesn't depend on your PC's ability, it depends on your RL ability, which is reflected in your PC's ability. Charisma is something that can't be pretended, unlike strength or speed.

3. Patience/Perseverance/Flexibility. Yes, technically that's a bunch of things, but they're all in the same category or group. Basically, no plot ever goes the way you expect it to. Some ideas, as originally conceived, may be impossible. Others may just take a lot longer then you expected. You also need to watch yourself, because a lot of times when staff says something from an IC source that is even mildly discouraging, it's taken as a "no" rather then "this IC source needs to be shown the value". Don't be afraid to ask staff for clarification. Dedication to your goal can see amazing things happen... And yes, sometimes expect that you may need to alter goals. Keeping at it is what sets apart those who do amazing things, and those who don't do much of anything.

Quote from: nauta on June 19, 2016, 09:30:24 AMIt wasn't so much a fear of dying, it was a lack of information to help inform RP.

So, suggestions?

o If you are in a clan, and a leader, you can request clarification.  But if you aren't in a clan, and not a leader...
o Rumor boards, rumor boards, rumor boards.
o Err on the side of too much information rather than too little?
o Animate a commoner vNPC/NPC to show (or even tell) the general feel (e.g., someone at the bar).

Those are a lot of good suggestions for people involved with and running plots. Here's some ideas for Amos Grebber who can't see a plot:

• Send in a request to staff and ask for details about what the common Amos would know or have seen, or wish up for an animation about it
• Ask other PCs who are more involved and might know what's happening
• If this information is supposed to be widely-known, make your own rumorboard post about it
• If this information isn't widely-known, have your PC become the local tavern gossip monger, ICly play out the spread of info, then make a limited rumorboard about it

Quote from: Patuk on June 19, 2016, 09:28:32 AM

Quote from: Dresan on June 19, 2016, 05:35:49 AM
Oh and thank you for your constructive criticism Patuk, always encouraging to come back to this GDB, participate in the forums and get your level of feedback.

Oh, please. This entire thread is discouraging, you're not special in this. This entire thread has come to the point where people are arguing about the amount of sweating someone needs to do before they may be graced with milk and honey from above. Things that don't involve fucking templars and whatnot? People many, many sorts never even deal with? Nah man, nobles. Nevermind that it's been said here before the damn atrium can't even keep people in. That Salarr's most recent presence on the Allanaki board has it bribing people just to join up. Getting people to suck up and be all nice to some people who were sponsored into their role, that's sure to make people appreciate the game.

You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else is to their own. Please keep the trolling to a minimun and at the very least not directed at me. Thank you.

Just pointing out it was an Exalted Lady (maybe two) that ascended. Take that, sexism!

Plots are relative.

This morning while I was in my garden, I watched a mockingbird drive a roadrunner out of its territory. It just kept divebombing the roadrunner until it finally moved off down the wadi. Why would it do that? Because roadrunners eat baby chicks that fall out of the nest.

So while I may turn on the radio and hear things about ISIS killers on the rampage or this or that personality going on about financial collapse, to the mockingbird the biggest threat to its existence is that roadrunner. NOT an ISIS shooting.

What I'm trying to illustrate is that all of these plots I hear about seem to think TOO BIG. Tuluk infiltrating Allanaki society with shadow artist killers? How does my alcoholic Gaj-sitting grebber even get a handle on that? Why would he care? Someone seeing a wounded mekillot angrily roaming the salt flats? Now that's a BIG threat to the grebber and a plot he would care about.

Frankly, Arm, you suck at level 1 fetch quests. Saving the world from Sauron is all well and good, but someone's got to go get Miss Wagglefoot's special tea delivery from Hobbiton.

Taven,

The only reason I am back is because my solution to allanak even before my break was not get involved with allanak. I had a ton of fun with my last character playing outside of allanak, he was involved in some pretty epic shit if you ask me. My character was also the one who brought back information for those snobs in allanak dealing with politics. I regret that though. On one on side of the known my character is dealing with armies of gith, and in allanak all they care about is whether snobby mc snob is annoyed I didn't give them the respect they deserve. If i ever roll a similar character, I will not even bother starting them in allanak.

Again its not that nothing is going on in allanak, its not that I feel anyone there is RPing wrong or not doing their part. Its just because of Allanak's success, noble houses, merchant houses, magickers, highlord  and its over all status in the world, everything surrounding allanak feels petty and status quo. It just feels boring, unlike when things happen in other areas of the game.  

I am talking about allanak specifically though, not the entire game or the known.  Its just a shame that allanak is a big part of the what makes the game. Luckily its not the only part, and I'm having fun in those other parts. :)

I voted for the game feeling static, but I imagine that is due to how I prefer to role-play and the "scale" that I am most comfortable with playing.  Tribal conflict and events between small villages or groups within the desert?  Yes, please.  Actions just seem more, there.  More meaningful, more valuable, more of an impact.

That is not to say you cannot do this, or that it does not get done, within the city.  The small number of our player base makes this sort of thing a reality.  But, to me there is something more satisfying in a scene between the only inhabitants within ten square miles of open waste or desert vs. the only player inhabitants within a tenement filled with vNPCs.  Conflict between two tribes could lead to one being destroyed, but their names still live on in the victory songs and histories of those who won.  I get a feeling of walking the paths of forgotten people.  It's more of an "adventure" feel, as I mean in the classical, gamey sense of tabletop adventures.

Meh..maybe I'm too influenced by Dark Sun where the cities were a place you actively opposed, you avoided or only stopped in to look for quest hooks and get equipment.

Pale Horse brings up an interesting thought - with relation to Dark Sun comparisons.

I'm starting to wonder if maybe my long-term enjoyment of Arm is precisely because I'd never even heard of Dark Sun til I started playing Arm. I still don't know anything about it, OTHER than what people post here on the GDB. I mean, I know it's a game, one of those Swords and Sorcery card games you play on a tabletop with weird-looking dice.

I have nothing to compare Armageddon with, and so I can't be disappointed that it doesn't measure up. For me, Armageddon is its own unique entity. I can only compare it with other muds that I've played. And as such, it's the best one I've played, ever. And I've played a few - been a head builder on a couple, storyteller on one. I've tried some of the other RPIs, I've tried H&Ss, I even tried a furry muck or mush or whatever they call them, mostly out of morbid curiosity.

Regardless of the changes that I don't like, Arm still remains my favorite. I'd have to guess that if Arm shut down, I'd just stop playing muds entirely.

Quote from: Dresan on June 19, 2016, 12:35:14 PMAgain its not that nothing is going on in allanak, its not that I feel anyone there is RPing wrong or not doing their part. Its just because of Allanak's success, noble houses, merchant houses, magickers, highlord  and its over all status in the world, everything surrounding allanak feels petty and status quo. It just feels boring, unlike when things happen in other areas of the game.  

I am talking about allanak specifically though, not the entire game or the known.  Its just a shame that allanak is a big part of the what makes the game. Luckily its not the only part, and I'm having fun in those other parts. :)

Honestly, it doesn't sound like you think the world setting is static. It sounds like you just personally dislike the world setting in regards to Allanak, which is a different thing entirely.

I'm glad you're able to have fun elsewhere.

Arm and Dark Sun are not very similar any more, Lizzie. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

I first started Armageddon in 2003; my first long-lived character was a ranger in the Byn. He lasted maybe 15-20 days of playing time, and I never really found it exciting.

After trying out a few other things, I settled into my rhythm: alternating between Armageddon 'rinth sneaky characters (eventually, and especially after boredom when I completely maxxed a pickpocket, mostly assassins), and desert elf rangers (often the Soh Lanah Kah).

Both of these types of characters are extremely fun with an decent potential for plots and world-changing. If you're in a desert elf tribe, you don't care that Allanak has won. You've got your own plot of land and you're trying to build and protect your community.

If you're in the 'rinth, you are in theory at the heart of the backstabbing inner-city politics that this game wishes it was about. Yes, it takes patience. If you play in the 'rinth, you'll need to get decent and build a team before you can start throwing your weight around. And it takes careful thought to live long, so most players don't. Plus, you might need to think outside the box and really internalize the mix of desperation, cruelty, and paranoia to build your character and survive.

I started my first character on Am since 2011 a few months ago. My last character (in 2011) was the Guild boss at the time, and when I died was starting to talk about putting in a better framework for how the Guild works and allow it build a sense of continuity between generations. I guess most people don't know much about the Guild, but it seems from threads like this that we can say that it doesn't seem to be stirring up a lot of plotting, and it doesn't seem to be a scary and formidable presence. I played under it when it was led by a legendary assassin named Serpent, but I didn't find it all that exciting even then.

I played in the Guild dozens of times, and led it multiple times. When it is powerful, the game can feel a fair bit different.

The thing is that it takes a team, and my team rarely survived long enough to get good enough (or I didn't). Ideally, nobody southside really knows who the leader of the Guild is. All they know is that there are (at least two) powerful (sneaky but dangerous) people waiting in the wings to avenge whoever is actually willing to show their face in person. Of course, if you're the leader you will actually end up having to do a lot of conversations, but in my experience doing those conversations in person will lead to an untimely death.

So in-person meetings need to be done by expendables. If those expendables aren't treated nicely? Several innocent citizens mysteriously - or quite obviously - disappear - aides, merchants, or what have you. Or poisoned daggers start flying at people at unexpected times. At that point the Guild is actually taken seriously and things get pretty interesting.

In my experience, it was very rarely like that. I do remember there was one guy I worked under - sdesc "dark man" or something really simple. He was said to have like a hundred PKs or something. I think that was sort of happening under him. I do recall that my first Guild character (a southsider) was taken quite randomly by a staffer, dressed up real fancy, and ordered to be the "face" (an expendable) for the Guild collecting protection from the nobles. I don't remember how that ended up working out; I think he got tossed into the Arena. We didn't really have the muscle.

I'm not sure I have much of a point. The Labyrinth has improved a bit, but it should have cheaper apartments down south. It should also have more expensive apartments available - it should be a place of inequality, since it does have some bad mothers who are rich enough to afford the best security possible.

Also, the Labyrinth is not hard to survive in. If you don't explore the desert, you can survive a long time - your biggest risk is starvation/dehydration which might drive you to do something risky like mine. Usually it's extremely uncommon for people to randomly backstab other people. Granted, if I was the most powerful presence around, I would usually be collecting protection money. Mostly I've died due to (1) being stupid and meeting people in person that I shouldn't, (2) something stupid like sparring with a live weapon (once), or (3) the rare twink who just likes to kill people for no real reason.

As far as (3), there was sometimes at least one character (usually an elf, sometimes a dwarf) who feels like randomly backstabbing PCs is their form of roleplay, but that wasn't too common, and once you've built up skills you can do a pretty good job avoiding it. Admittedly, staff don't really care about twinks in the 'rinth, and these characters can one-hit-kill you. I lost my last character to a random maxxed assassin dwarf who randomly logged in to kill things in the 'rinth every so often and nothing else. I'd known he'd been around for a while as I'd sometimes shadow him and watched him kill randomly shit, but there nothing really to do. On Armageddon coded skills are godly, and even with a l33t poison (which I probably didn't have, can't remember) it's too risky. So one day I was shadowing a couple of newbish "associates" and they got jumped; I jumped in to support with a solid backstab and got completely owned because I'd spent too much time plotting and not enough time sparring.

The 'rinth is probably my least favorite spot in the game. It's too small for the action that should realistically take place there, and the alleys and rooftops don't line up in a Euclidean fashion so it makes mapping a real pain.

It's either empty and boring or not empty and very deadly.

Quote from: Miradus on June 20, 2016, 03:26:00 PM
The 'rinth is probably my least favorite spot in the game. It's too small for the action that should realistically take place there, and the alleys and rooftops don't line up in a Euclidean fashion so it makes mapping a real pain.

It's either empty and boring or not empty and very deadly.

#rinthisforhardcores

I used to have a tough time in the 'rinth. I think it takes a good cast and crew there to make the place really get it and come to life. Otherwise, yes, it is probably the best example of a static area of the game. Without PCs, it is lifeless.

Quote from: Reiloth on June 20, 2016, 04:45:45 PM

Quote from: Miradus on June 20, 2016, 03:26:00 PM
The 'rinth is probably my least favorite spot in the game. It's too small for the action that should realistically take place there, and the alleys and rooftops don't line up in a Euclidean fashion so it makes mapping a real pain.

It's either empty and boring or not empty and very deadly.

#rinthisforhardcores

I used to have a tough time in the 'rinth. I think it takes a good cast and crew there to make the place really get it and come to life. Otherwise, yes, it is probably the best example of a static area of the game. Without PCs, it is lifeless.

The NPCs used to murder each other a lot. But staff gave them some meds so they're better now.

Except that one guy.

Quote from: Yam on June 20, 2016, 04:49:14 PM

Quote from: Reiloth on June 20, 2016, 04:45:45 PM

Quote from: Miradus on June 20, 2016, 03:26:00 PM
The 'rinth is probably my least favorite spot in the game. It's too small for the action that should realistically take place there, and the alleys and rooftops don't line up in a Euclidean fashion so it makes mapping a real pain.

It's either empty and boring or not empty and very deadly.

#rinthisforhardcores

I used to have a tough time in the 'rinth. I think it takes a good cast and crew there to make the place really get it and come to life. Otherwise, yes, it is probably the best example of a static area of the game. Without PCs, it is lifeless.

The NPCs used to murder each other a lot. But staff gave them some meds so they're better now.

Except that one guy.

Fuck that guy.


Also, Miradus, your comment about Arm sucking at level 1 fetch quests will have me lolling until my great grandson gets his 4th cybernetic implant.

There is literally no quest more common in the game.

Heh. I need to find the guy with the yellow question mark over his head then.

Quote from: Taven on June 19, 2016, 11:14:50 PM

Quote from: Dresan on June 19, 2016, 12:35:14 PMAgain its not that nothing is going on in allanak, its not that I feel anyone there is RPing wrong or not doing their part. Its just because of Allanak's success, noble houses, merchant houses, magickers, highlord  and its over all status in the world, everything surrounding allanak feels petty and status quo. It just feels boring, unlike when things happen in other areas of the game.  

I am talking about allanak specifically though, not the entire game or the known.  Its just a shame that allanak is a big part of the what makes the game. Luckily its not the only part, and I'm having fun in those other parts. :)

Honestly, it doesn't sound like you think the world setting is static. It sounds like you just personally dislike the world setting in regards to Allanak, which is a different thing entirely.

I'm glad you're able to have fun elsewhere.

Now we are on the same page.  :-*

In my mind the only thing that allanak is missing is a huge rome style bathhouse. With fountains and pools, just a grand place with constant water running, all for the rich and influencial. The water of course would come at the cost of forcing thousands of its citizens to go thirsty. Its completely insane but that the level of utter depravity I see allanak reaching I feel. With obscene amounts of arrogance and decadence, and with its leadership fighting over petty titles and meaningless status, all the while maintaining the overall status quo.

Anyone challenging that status quo is dealt with harshly, which makes any place outside the reach of allanak's authority (like redstorm) invaluable. Its a boring setting for me to play in but there is actually nothing wrong the cities setting, I'm sure many enjoy it. Allanak's biggest enemy is not some castle full of monsters, or an army of marching from whereever, Allanak's worst enemy is basically itself at this point.

Unfortunately, to me that just happens to be a story best enjoyed from distance but thats okay because I don't feel its going to last forever. :)

Quote from: Dresan on June 21, 2016, 09:08:07 PM

In my mind the only thing that allanak is missing is a huge rome style bathhouse. With fountains and pools, just a grand place with constant water running, all for the rich and influencial. The water of course would come at the cost of forcing thousands of its citizens to go thirsty. Its completely insane but that the level of utter depravity I see allanak reaching I feel. With obscene amounts of arrogance and decadence, and with its leadership fighting over petty titles and meaningless status, all the while maintaining the overall status quo.

It's not a bath house, but it totally exists... the actual baths are private, for the nobles. Because fuck rich commoners, they only get to look at the fountains. :D

I hate Allanak and despise Tektolnes. You have control over people who can just say a magic phrase and CREATE water, but yet you let your citizens die in the streets if they can't come up with 20 sid?

Evil.

So I tend to work that hate into my character backgrounds. :)

Quote from: Miradus on June 21, 2016, 10:15:42 PM
I hate Allanak and despise Tektolnes. You have control over people who can just say a magic phrase and CREATE water, but yet you let your citizens die in the streets if they can't come up with 20 sid?

Evil.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/yr55L2TFAlpe0/giphy.gif)