Armageddon General Discussion Board

Per an IRC discussion early this morning:

<ShaLeah> No one understands me.
* Languid whipes ShaLeah.

Wait... just kidding, wrong log.  ;)

Quite a few people made mention that they thought the level of harshness in the game has lessened some.  
Can we open a topic of discussion about this that doesn't degrade into a flame or is seen as a flame?  I don't want people taking this the wrong way so I'll clarify, this is not an attack on the game, this is a genuine topic of interest among players that comes up over and over again.

Do you think Armageddon has lost some of its brutality?


ShaLeah
-who thinks it has and will add her two sid after she comes back from shopping.

When I first started playing there was so much corruption you could cut out a chunk of it from the air.

There -is- less murder, corruption, and betrayal.

I would give examples, but said examples would probably offend some people.

I don't think the world has lost alot of its brutal harshness.

What I do think is that PCs are more cautious and fearful than they used to be.  In the good 'ole days, people would travel ALONE in the wastes and get slaughtered in droves.  Players are more aware of the dangers of travel in Zalanthas and thus, are more cautious about how they do it...and when...and with whom.

Within the cities and other communities, PCs are more likely to scratch out a meager existence, keeping themselves barely above destitution in order to avoid putting themselves greatly at risk in order to gain a few 'sid more.

More PCs are employed now than ever before because going it alone is a VERY nasty, brutish and short way of life.  At least...for inexperienced people.

There is more of an actual ECONOMY in Zalanthas now, with various PCs and clans of PCs fueling the fires of economic growth and prosperity...working for Merchant Great houses and other groups to get a cut of the 'sid for themselves as merchants, traders, soldiers spies and informants.

From what I remember, that was all part of the grand staff design, and in my opinion it has worked rather well.  There are a plethora of craftable items now that PCs can make in order to sell and trade.  Merchant Great houses are more active now, with more employees scattered across the Known World.  Noble Houses too, are more active than ever before.  There's far more plotting, scheming and dealing going on in the world than ever before.

Yes, there's plenty of opportunity for folks to die in Zalanthas.  Now, however, there's also more opportunity for PCs to live and die in relative comfort...or at lease -some- comfort, without having to go out scavenging alone in the wastes for gith gear or other such.

IMHO it is still a very harsh, brutal world.  It's just a more realistic one now.  The old, stock H&S Diku way of doing things is almost completely gone in ArmageddonMud, and I think we'll all agree that is a GOOD thing!

Easier survival is one of the things that makes it less harsh.  :)

I didn't play a few years ago so I have no idea if it's harsher or not. But there's no option for that in the poll so I can't cast a vote.

I see some aspects harsher than when I first started playing, and some aspects less harsh.

Most of my characters have been fairly long-lived (near or over 20 days playing time) but I don't credit that with the game being easy or not brutal enough. And so far, none of my characters have ever been killed by a critter. I also don't credit (or blame) the game or other characters for that. Mostly I credit my own cowardice, because scary monsters are scary so I tend to err on the side of caution :)

Depends.

There is definitely less PC on PC harshness from what I've seen.  At least out in the desert.  I think some changes recently will allow for more of that.

I would rather see more meaningful PC conflict than harshness in the form of:

A huge black beetle has arrived from the west
A huge black beetle has arrived from the west
A dark-shelled scrab has arrived from the west
A silt-horror has arrived from the west
A hooked-beak silt-flyer has arrived from the west

And I'm very hopeful that this will soon become the case.

It was better back in the day posts are always comming up.  I agree with naatok. People just used to travel more.  I have to say the chars of mine that took chances have died, betrayal does still happen.  Long lived chars will tend to be the city aide types not really involved in pissing people off much I think.

Quote from: "naatok"Within the cities and other communities, PCs are more likely to scratch out a meager existence, keeping themselves barely above destitution in order to avoid putting themselves greatly at risk in order to gain a few 'sid more.

More PCs are employed now than ever before because going it alone is a VERY nasty, brutish and short way of life.  At least...for inexperienced people.

That's not what I've been seeing.  From what I've observed, almost all of the playerbase in Allanak is an employee of a House, either noble or merchant.  They have no worries of survival, and they never really do anything dangerous.  Guards are even allowed to get pregnant, despite the fact that this is obviously detracting from their utility.  I blame this on the Atrium, which has had a pervasive and noticable effect on the playerbase since it was created.  I used to get turned down when I tried to get a job at a noble house.  Unfortunately, that was over a year ago, and these days getting turned down just doesn't happen.

The focus has gone away from bloody conflict, and blasphemously towards political conflict.  Political conflict is all well and good, but there are a lot of characters that aren't suitable to be involved in political conflict between noble houses.  The game HAS to accomodate them.  A half-giant isn't going to be asked to plot against anybody, whether they're in a House uniform or not.  What about them?  Most rinthers and elves won't have an opportunity to enter the plot of House X versus House Y.  What about them?  What about unclanned magickers?  What about escaped muls?  What about waste-weary rangers?  They all haven't magickally disappeared.  What are they to do?

Personally, I'm not very interested in political conflict.  There was once a templar whose focus was definitely geared toward bloody conflict.  Of course, there were inevetible political melees that came with the job, but when those came up he simply asked other people for advice and followed that advice.  His mind was straightforward and blunt.  He couldn't grasp the curves and edges of petty politics.  But he had a good grasp of tactics, and could swing a weapon like nobodies business.  My point is, that I am that strong-willed templar.  I am the unclean street thug.  I am the escaped mul.  I am the powerful half-giant.  Don't leave me behind.  I can make you regret it.

I don't know about the rest of zalanthas, but the area I'm currently playing in has tons of murder, corruption and betrayal, more really then just two years ago.

One of the things I've been enjoying is the fact that even two years ago most pc's died from critters, now, a far larger percentage die from pc's, at least in this area.

The wilderness is still plenty deadly, it just may take a little longer, a player may have to roam a bit farther from the city.

Less murder? No.

Less corruption? Broad topic, what kind of corruption?  Maybe in some areas.

Less betrayal? Again, huge topic, what kind of betrayal?  In general, quite likely yes.

All I want is the harsh 'Nakki Templars again, and that's enough Murder, Corruption and Betrayal for me.

But I ca think of a few huge examples of murder and betrayal and corruption, not all mutually exclusive, that have come up recently.  Arm isn't tamer, it just isn't seeing the MCB aspects played out as much, that we see, but it's never left either.

Can't really speak for years past but my most recent character was cut down in the streets of 'Nak ... not sure what is was all about but racial animosity is how I viewed it.

That seems pretty harsh to me  :roll:

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"From what I've observed, almost all of the playerbase in Allanak is an employee of a House

Unless things have changed drastically, there were plenty of obsidian hunters in Allanak.

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"I used to get turned down when I tried to get a job at a noble house.  Unfortunately, that was over a year ago, and these days getting turned down just doesn't happen.

I've seen quite a few turned down. Mostly half-elves.

That's the one thing I want to see changed. How half-breed are treated. Because right now they're treated as good as people  :roll: I know I harp on about this, but damnit! They're the scum of the universe and people say "sorry" and "please" and "thankyou" to them  :evil: And they're not being sarcastic.

Well, I played a couple years ago for a couple months.
When I had four characters in total, they both died to strange and very brutal deaths and pissed me off.

now, my first four characters in octobre(?) Died damn near the same way..
My character before this one, died an amazingly brutal death.


So I don't think it has, maybe it is actually the players way of thinking.

Because you have become used to the harshness and therefor you are not seeing it as good as the ol' days.

If anything I'd say the game actually became MORE harsh.  Lets see.  If you dive farther back, npcs used to not have move points, so they could chase you forever (clearly this made the game less harsh).

Okay, not so far back, the caps on skills players could reach were, higher, while very few likely ever saw the higher skill regions, the players skill growth was capped so the uber chars weren't so incredibly unfairly powerful compared to everyone else (think that was why) anyway, the npcs didn't get caps too (so while this makes pc vs pc action possibly less harsh, it makes npc vs pc action more harsh).

 What else..  The gith now actually work together, have self preservation and will try to use ranged attacks.  So they're smarter and much more of a threat than they used to be.  Npcs have scripts now that let them use special attacks (some of which are based on randomization and therefore allows them to use these special attacks in a row without delay untill you're dead).  

I actually think these days it's managed to get more deadly and stupid to do certain things.  Has the game gotten less harsh? I'd say not in the least, what has happened is players are doing more of the political thing.  And I don't thik it's less harsh, I just think the intruige is done more behind closed doors.

Quote from: "John"I've seen quite a few turned down. Mostly half-elves.

That's the one thing I want to see changed. How half-breed are treated. Because right now they're treated as good as people  :roll: I know I harp on about this, but damnit! They're the scum of the universe and people say "sorry" and "please" and "thankyou" to them  :evil: And they're not being sarcastic.

Treated as good as people?  I dunno 'bout that one, mate.  I have -very- rarely seen half-elves treated well, and I mostly log on during 'nak peak hours...some other times, too.  The people that my character hang around also despise elves and half-breeds.  Truth is, I am confident that a half-elf that looks supicious will be killed within RL days of logging into 'nak.  The ones that don't just get abused, and poor service I guess.

Also depends on who the half elf is.  EVEN half elves can get into positions of power where it might be a bad idea to piss them off.  Yes and even these half elves tend to get treated poorly if the right people, who couldn't give a damn about who they are mis treating are.

The problem with going out of your way to abuse half elves and elves and muls and other pcs you see of these disciminated races is that to do so you probably are overlooking vnpcs.  

In the event that you treat one poorly when you interact with them, that makes sense, if you ignore them, that makes sense.

If you are saying people should go out of their way to give them dirty looks, or to even sometimes do it, you're going a little far.  Why? because THEY'RE EVERYWHERE.  So unless you want to emote being a prick to vnpcs constantly, I think it's plenty realistic to just ignore most of them.

I think the cities are less dangerous, but the outdoors are still troublesome.

As for elven and half-elven hatred. My last naki character didn't see that much half-breed descrimination. But elves are still very much hated in 'nak.

After my last character, I can safely say there is a good deal of plotting going on. And yes, some of it is bloody. And I'm not just talking house versus house, but plots between peoples, and using underlings....Can't say more without spilling the IC beans.

To those who say Arm isn't harsh, I say "There is more going on than you know about." Just like Hallaster once said.

Besides, you can always start something yourself. Hire the guy down the road to kill that elf you really hate. Or something.  :twisted:

Quote from: "Tarx04"The people that my character hang around also despise elves and half-breeds.  Truth is, I am confident that a half-elf that looks supicious will be killed within RL days of logging into 'nak.  The ones that don't just get abused, and poor service I guess.

I can say that certainly didn't happen. I logged on expecting to be treated like dirt, I was treated kindly every time I interacted with someone.

The 1 time I wasn't was when I tried to offer my services as a whore to a male dwarf (so it could of been OOC homaphobic tendencies, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was cause I was a half-breed ;)). That was the ONLY time I was treated horribly. I certainly wasn't powerful, I hung around the Gaj.

I don't expect to go in a room and to be spat on by every PC. But I'd talk to people and they were as nice as anything. I wasn't ignored, I was treated like a human. And I was short, with round ears and almond eyes and half-elf in my sdesc ;) Everyone knew I was a half-elf.

Quote from: "UnderSeven"The problem with going out of your way to abuse half elves and elves and muls and other pcs you see of these disciminated races is that to do so you probably are overlooking vnpcs.

Oh man..c'mon.  Let the VNPC racists take care of discriminating against the VNPC minorities.  I think VNPC's and NPCs need to be included in your roleplay and certainly not ignored, but interacting with any VNPC is a very hollow experience.  Certainly someone who roleplays hating elves to the point that they won't trade or deal with them shouldn't suddenly be deciding that one elf merchant NPC is one of the few good elves.  But I reject the notion that I can't give that elf down the bar a hard time because I haven't filled my quota of emoting out throwing ale at the mangy, suspicious-looking elven VNPC.

I've never liked the 'but what about VNPCs' argument used by victims of racism or unfair treatment.

Quote from: "deviant storm"Hire the guy down the road to kill that elf you really hate.

I can tell you from experience that it's not as simple as just hiring someone.  I, for one, have been accused of being too quick to jump the assassination wagon.  I admit it, the first thought in my characters minds when an nuisance becomes a constant annoyance is to kill them, hell... just the potential in becoming a constant annoyance is sometimes enough to make assassination a very attractive option.  My assassinations have been stopped by higher ups and even assassinations paid for have been conveniently forgotten or ignored.

It's been discussed that perhaps learning the games ins and outs aids in the feeling that things are not as brutal as they once were and I agree with that to a certain extent, but I think that we sacrifice a lot of brutality in order to have a more welcome playability, in order to entice new players and keep them.

Quote from: "gfair"All I want is the harsh 'Nakki Templars again, and that's enough Murder, Corruption and Betrayal for me.

Amen. In fairness, I haven't been to Allanak in a while but when last I remember a Templar being despised and feared was a certain blood sucking robe-wearer who had people in hiding.  Hiding. Leaving the city to save their skin... -that- is what I wish more templars were like. That is what I call an impact.  Hell, my character never met them but was teetering so much between curiosity and fear that she hid too.  A public whipping, an elf hunt or two. Mean, evil, corrupted templars rock.  Make me scared. Please.

Maybe what I'm looking for is a more public sense of danger, more arena games, public executions, public dismemberments, a more public demand of respect, especially with the Law, be it templarate and militia too to an extent.  Maybe seeing bad things happen to normal people will make me change my mind.

Quote from: "ShaLeah"In fairness, I haven't been to Allanak in a while but when last I remember a Templar being despised and feared was a certain blood sucking robe-wearer who had people in hiding.  Hiding. Leaving the city to save their skin... -that- is what I wish more templars were like. That is what I call an impact.  Hell, my character never met them but was teetering so much between curiosity and fear that she hid too.  A public whipping, an elf hunt or two. Mean, evil, corrupted templars rock.  Make me scared. Please.

A templar's job isn't to make people leave the city.  Any blue-robe that is accomplishing that is obviously stepping far out of their bounds of power, and transgressing the bounds of realsim.  I don't understand why people want templars to kill there characters despite the fact that it wouldn't be a normal or realistic occurance.  Grow up.  Conflict that is so one-sided is rare for a reason:  The obviously superior force of the conflict already has control of the situation, and violence isn't required at that point.  If the bottom rung of the ladder tries to go up a notch, it's a templars job to make sure that they fail.  Other than that, it isn't necessary for templars to slaughter people wantonly.

The kind of conflict that interests me more is conflict for people that are competing for survival.  Resources are scarce.  Two tribes or gangs having a territorial war is more interesting to me than two noble houses competing for standing when the standing is already set in the documentation and isn't likely to change.  Ever.

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"... it isn't necessary for templars to slaughter people wantonly.

No one said anything about necessity.  Desire and need are two vastly different things and personally, I'll admire whomever strikes a chord within me, in the case of Allanaki templars, I can only speak of the ones who were memorable for -me-.  Sure other people did a decent job, created jobs for PC's, were more deeply involved in politics, were more respected... I'm by no means saying that those people didn't do a good job, I am saying, that for me, read, -me-, the memorable ones are the ones who make my characters fear.

Senseless slaughtering has nothing to do with it, the ability to create a fearful mood does. A certain Red Robe a while back instilled fear and I can say that I never saw him kill anyone in public, yet when he walked into the room, people reacted, people fled, people kissed ass.

I didn't say -you- had to agree. I am stating some of the reasons why I believe brutality has softened on Arm. Agree, or disagree.

Quote from: "EvilRoeSlade"Grow up.

Indeed.

Quote
I would rather see more meaningful PC conflict than harshness in the form of:

A huge black beetle has arrived from the west
A huge black beetle has arrived from the west
A dark-shelled scrab has arrived from the west
A silt-horror has arrived from the west
A hooked-beak silt-flyer has arrived from the west

I agree with this completely, as far as coded dangers go, (and others have mentioned before) I'd rather see other dangers besides just burly npcs or large groups of npcs.

There seems to be alot less pvp conflicts than there used to be and I'd rather there was alot more as well. My current char isn't one who'd start such things, maybe a future one. I think part of this reduced pvp conflict could be fixed by allowing people to start/arrange certain types of groups OOC, I understand the reasoning why it is discouraged but, I'd rather see more of these sort of groups around for chars to worry about.

Down with more nasty npcs, up with pc villians and other coded dangers!

Quote from: "jhunter"I agree with this completely, as far as coded dangers go, (and others have mentioned before) I'd rather see other dangers besides just burly npcs or large groups of npcs.

A few months back the code was changed so we'd need to actually take water and food with us when we go hunting outside. That's more of the harshness I prefer ;)

Yes. I like the Templar that goes around causing fear. What I don't like is the Templar who goes around beheading any PC who doesn't bow at him. But I haven't seen one of those... well ever.

QuoteAll I want is the harsh 'Nakki Templars again, and that's enough Murder, Corruption and Betrayal for me.

I don't see a problem there... I've been very impressed by the Allanak Templarate lately. One Templar in particular, rather. Admittedly, I didn't spend much time in 'nak back in the day.

QuoteIn fairness, I haven't been to Allanak in a while

Maybe that says it all?

QuoteA few months back the code was changed so we'd need to actually take water and food with us when we go hunting outside. That's more of the harshness I prefer

Eh? I agree with the realism, but where's the fun in dying from dehydration? How is that harshness "fun"?


I've been mugged in the streets of 'nak, executed in the arena, assassinated with poison, and stripped naked in the past few months... I think harshness is certainly there. What I remember when I started was stepping outside the gate to be charged by mindlessly PKing "hunters". Heh. That was thrilling, but it really wasn't much for RP.

What I'd really like to see is a more flexible crime code. The crime code right now is terribly primitive. The militia takes the word of an VNPC %100, in an instant, but they blow off PCs. The guards are overly pumped up. A high status, wealthy person can't have an upstart beaten, even if the offender spits in their face. It'd be nice to see more muggers, more spice-dealers, more local gangs, even human ones, but as it is, the crime code restricts that. House guards are mostly useless. A flexible, intricate crime code would be awesome.

Quote from: "Kalden"Eh? I agree with the realism, but where's the fun in dying from dehydration? How is that harshness "fun"?

Yeah, it can be boring. But you CAN end the boredom anytime you want by a simple "quit" button ;) It can be fun, playing a delirious person, praying to every God on the planet that a PC comes and finds you (if your close to the city). Be fearful of an animal coming up and eating you. But the main point is to be scared of getting to that point and desperately trying not too. That might mean you have to hock off your shirt. Or not sit on top of a mountain of obsidian and spend it, etc, etc :)

My thinking is that the player base has grown up and matured a bit more than a simple hack and slash game (even if the hack and slash parts of flat out killing people were really well role-played out).  Now characters are allowed to live long enough to push long and woven plotlines along, and that adds a lot.  

What I see happening sometimes on this board are people who take one little slice of the game and try to argue about it.  Instead, players should look at the bigger picture.  In the bigger picture, things have stayed harsh and just as deadly.

Quote from: "ShaLeah"Senseless slaughtering has nothing to do with it, the ability to create a fearful mood does. A certain Red Robe a while back instilled fear and I can say that I never saw him kill anyone in public, yet when he walked into the room, people reacted, people fled, people kissed ass.

Now you begin to make more sense.  Red Robes are intended to be far scarier than blue-robes, and I'd question one that didn't make people flinch whenever she appeared in public.  However!  Your last post seemed to say something far different.  A blue-robe that's making people leave the city is going too far.  If one ICly incompotent blue-robe does it occasionally, I suppose that's unavoidable, but if you want to see more of that, as you stated that you did, then I say you're insane.  Where would it leave us?  With nothing besides scary templars in Allanak, billowing their robes to appear larger than they really are?  If somebody wants to play a templar that isn't doing their job right, that's there perogative.  Their job though, is not to make people flee Allanak for fear of being killed.  And I don't see why you'd want more templars doing such things.  The occasional one is more than enough.

Quote from: "ShaLeah"I didn't say -you- had to agree. I am stating some of the reasons why I believe brutality has softened on Arm. Agree, or disagree.

I must be getting old, because I thought disagreeing was what I was doing.

About killer NPC's:   To me, it seems like this has been fixed, to a fairly good degree.  The imms really listened to the players on this one, thank you!

About harsh/less harsh: I'm not sure things are less harsh now, but even if they are I don't really even care so much.  The game we have now is much better than it used to be, say a few years ago.  So much great work has been done on it, it's really amazing.  I have to say, I'm finding myself being more addicted now than I think I've ever been....now, if only I didn't have to work..   :wink:

Someone once brought this up in a conversation I had with them.

Noble houses, with the exception of Tor, should not have PC guards.

Why?  Because there's nothing to do, except be pampered.  And when you're sitting around doing nothing, you're not creating the world as a 'harsh' world.

But you're a noble.  And you want someone dead.  Hmm.

Here's an idea.  Contact someone who's shady, and get them to kill.  Your house should never have 'known' assassins.

To say that again:   No Noble House PC Guards unless special app'ed for.

Quote from: "mansa"Someone once brought this up in a conversation I had with them.

Noble houses, with the exception of Tor, should not have PC guards.

Why?  Because there's nothing to do, except be pampered.  And when you're sitting around doing nothing, you're not creating the world as a 'harsh' world.

But you're a noble.  And you want someone dead.  Hmm.

Here's an idea.  Contact someone who's shady, and get them to kill.  Your house should never have 'known' assassins.

To say that again:   No Noble House PC Guards unless special app'ed for.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Why would a noble need to hire someone shady to have someone executed when they can just get their guards to do it?

Second, this game isn't about 'doing something'. It's about having fun and playing. You could say servant PCs don't do anything except relay messages, so get rid of them too. And without guards or servants, there's no need for a noble. Nix that role too. Don't forget bards also. How does someone being happy and singing add to the harshness of the world?

I agree with Carnage. I was shocked as Mansa wrote we shouldn't play any noble guards anymore. I think we should be able play nearly all in the game.

Ditto to Carnage and Lasakar

I believe the point he was trying to make was:

Is it necessary to continuously recruit a barracks full of guards, pay them, and pamper them, and let them either spar or tavern sit on the off chance that once every three or four IC years they get used to say.. assassinate someone (and keep in mind, they're guards.. not assassins) or go on some sort of mission?

As far as an opinion, and this is my personal opinion and in no way reflects the opinion of the rest of the staff:

While the game hasn't gotten less brutal in my eyes.. crazy, scary templars are a dime an application, evil people still exist in power that it would be most Unwise (with a capital U, mind you) to cross, and that people will betray someone else at the drop of a sid, in the places where most people play.. i.e. cities, it has become much less harsh to survive.

I begin to see noble houses as cushy-life character recruitment farms.. people are simply recruited without any thought to whether or not they'd make a good guard, and treated exorbitantly well.

In my view, noble house guards are guards and not hunters. They're not and shouldn't be aides and messenger boys, and they shouldn't be assassins. If a noble house doesn't get much use out of their stable of obedient PC guards that sit around getting paid a lot of money to spar and essentially keep tavern stools warm and do everything but what they are hired for, then that is making the world less harsh. Suddenly every pc has a cushy job, food, water, a full set of armor and weapons just starting out... unless they go out of their way as a -player- to turn that cushy job down.

And it isn't that the world isn't harsh. Try to play an independent realistically and you'll find it is pretty hard, if you do it realistically, but I feel that the players really have made it less harsh and much more fancy. Seeing house guards being able to afford silks and gems.. well... when it gets difficult to tell guard from noble, then to me, the world's harshness has been reduced.

I also remember when it was difficult to get a job with noble houses. Not because there were less players, but it seemed that the recruiters and nobles were much pickier. Having the largest collection of PC employees wasn't the game of choice. This made finding a job as one of these guards or aides something to strive for. It made survival.. harsher. Not impossible, but you actually needed to work for things, and got a little less for doing it, but it made what you did get that much better.. it wasn't just handed to you.

There are many ways nobles can do things without having to have an entire pc stable of guards, including hiring the Byn to do those out of town missions, to yes, *gasp* making shady contacts and using THEM. But I'll admit, it makes things easier not to have to do that. And it looks pretty impressive when you can tote around an entourage of 10 pc's, never mind that much of the time, they're not doing what they're hired for.

Again, this is my opinion. And I'm not saying that its just the nobles and pc's who work for them making things less harsh. But to me, when I look at the actual harshness/survival factor it's low/high because few characters who have lived a hard life,  would turn down a chance to get paid for doing mostly nothing, get gifts, spar, get armored/clothed, fed, watered, given bonuses and a place to live... to me, when it becomes the norm that it happens, it does take the harshness away from a world where most people would be scrounging for sid, if not food and water.

When I first joined the mud I had to work to get a job, oftentimes getting turned down.  The problem is the northlands becoming Tuluk changed everything.

As far as nobility guard jobs you had four real possibilities.  Oash, Tor, Borsail and the Militia.  (Fale was never very active in recruits guard types so that don't count.)  When the northlands became Tuluk the number of positions almost doubled.  Now when someone wants to play a noble or templar guard they have 7(!!) options.  That's only counting the cushy, indoors-type roles.

It's too late now, but right from the start I wished that the Tuluki nobility had stayed a virtual entity.  I'm sure both clans have redeeming value, but in the end they sucked the pool of willing and capable PC guards and nobles dry.  In the place of noble house vs. noble house conflict, there could have been burgeoning Lirathan vs. Jihaean conflict built into the new society.  But I digress.

Guard type jobs are a dime a dozen because there are too many.

Kurac
Kadius
Salarr
Winrothrol
Tenneshi
Borsail
Oash
Tor
Tuluki Militia
Allanaki Militia

If all of these clans are going to be kept open I think greater direction should be given to each one.  A subjob for each clan's guards that ends up being something other than sparring and sitting.

Tor - Tor guards could be tasked with patrolling the wastes outside of Allanak in groups, keeping an eye on the four roads leading into Allanak since they would play a vital defense in defending the city.  I've always understood Tor to play a vital part in Allanak's defense planning, but I could be wrong.

Borsail - Borsail guards could go on slaving raids, grabbing gith for the arena.

Oash - Oashi guards could be tasked with making regular trips to the Oashi vineyard place thingee, making sure that it is safe.

Etc.  Etc.

Or.....hire the Byn to do all of these.  Boom.  One condensed clan.

Quote from: "uberjazz"Or.....hire the Byn to do all of these.  Boom.  One condensed clan.

But don't forget to salute before you backstab one!  :wink:

I don't believe the problem is too many clans offering roles as a guard (or militia of any sort), I think it's the fact that they don't do much.  You say they only go on missions once in a great great while?  Maybe missions need to be held more often.  Maybe the Tuluki militia should schedule a weekly scouting mission surrounding the city-state.  I remember back in the day when Kurac used to go on desert training missions quite regularly.  I'm sure people would flock to these roles more often if they had something to do.  Sitting around guarding a PC is pointless, sure, but there's plenty of other opportunities for them.  During the Rebellion days there was lots to do on a day-to-day basis, and we were all militia.  Every day was like an RPT really.  I realize there is often a time constraint and with multiple login times it's hard to coordinate something once in a great while, let alone on a weekly basis, but I think those clans aren't doing fun stuff often enough for more players to make that possible.

Quote from: "Carnage"

Quote from: "mansa"Someone once brought this up in a conversation I had with them.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Why would a noble need to hire someone shady to have someone executed when they can just get their guards to do it?

General Discussion Board.   That's a flame, to call anything I say, Ridiculous.  I bought it up, because I thought it had some valid points in it.  I tried to bring it out, what I thought was the most important ones that came across in my conversation with my friend.

But, of course, it came out wrong to your ears.

An Oashi noble who conspires to kill a Borsail noble, and get his guard to do it, should be expelled from the city.  Those kinds of 'deals' should Never be assicoated with a noble house.  Even if it was common blood.

Anonymous on purpose.

Maybe all this cushy stuff is going on in the south but I can tell you we don't sit there all day 6 RL days a week either sparring or tavern sitting in the north. Do you all REALLY think that's all people do? Are we reduced to the narrow definitions of our jobs? My character has a cuople of hobbies. One hobby I'm getting really involved in and even getting the clan I work with involved in it. It isn't even related to any coded skills (though once the project is complete it will be a little)

My character has days off where she goes window shopping. She can't afford to actually buy anything except things to support one of her *other* hobbies so no my guard doesn't wear silks or fancy jewelry on her days off. She uses hand-me-down weapons from the barracks because she's saving up for an apartment. By the time a Nenyuk rental agent ever shows up, she'll probably have enough saved up for 2 years lease in a luxury suite. She doesn't get bonuses, and why should she? Everything she does for her clan is part of her job. It's what she gets paid to do already. A job well done gets a thanks and a nod of approval, and continual good work gets a promotion and enough of a raise to buy an extra 3 ales a RL week.

She works damned hard for those sids, and "a place to sleep" is just a cot in a public room, no different from the cots in the taverns that have them. If you want to get right down to it, her background has her coming from a rather wealthy family, and compared to what she grew up with, she's living damned frugally.

If you define your character by his job description, I can definitely see how a guard PC would be boring with "nothing to do." I'm glad I don't define my character that way.

That's all I wanted to say.

Quote from: "uberjazz"Or.....hire the Byn to do all of these.  Boom.  One condensed clan.

Considering last I read the Byn only numbered in the hundreds, the numbers doesn't work out.

Quote from: "mansa"

Quote from: "Carnage"

Quote from: "mansa"Someone once brought this up in a conversation I had with them.

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Why would a noble need to hire someone shady to have someone executed when they can just get their guards to do it?

General Discussion Board.   That's a flame, to call anything I say, Ridiculous.  I bought it up, because I thought it had some valid points in it.  I tried to bring it out, what I thought was the most important ones that came across in my conversation with my friend.

Go cry to the MUD account, but I've got the feeling you're going to be laughed at.

QuoteBut, of course, it came out wrong to your ears.

An Oashi noble who conspires to kill a Borsail noble, and get his guard to do it, should be expelled from the city.  Those kinds of 'deals' should Never be assicoated with a noble house.  Even if it was common blood.

Do you have any experience with any of this? I have no idea where you're even coming from. There's no reason for a noble to pick a filthy, poorly trained 'Rinth rat with loyalty to the 'sid over his own fiercely loyal and highly trained guard.

Noble and templar assassinations get done all the time in the VNPC world. Changes are, it's more than likely known who's doing it and why. Nobody cares as nobles are more than likely not killed unless they did something wrong, such as violating a social taboo or offending someone. If a templar finds out, a bribe or two should take care of it. This isn't happy virtuous justice land, this is Zalanthas.

If anyone reading this has ever played in a position of power, you know that it's not a simple of matter of snapping your fingers and having someone gone. It takes careful planning, money, a reliable person, and a good reason. If you start offing every Dick or Jane who looks at you cross-eyed someone's going to take notice and realize you're getting too powerful for your own good.

Quote from: "Carnage"Do you have any experience with any of this? I have no idea where you're even coming from. There's no reason for a noble to pick a filthy, poorly trained 'Rinth rat with loyalty to the 'sid over his own fiercely loyal and highly trained guard.

Trained in what? Trained in guarding people? Yes. Trained in social ettiquette? Yes. Trained in sneaking over a wall, through a window, slashing Noble Oash's throat, climbing back through the window, past the guards, over the wall and back to the compound without being seen? No.

It's perfectly reasonable to have a House assassin who pretends to be a guard. But not have a guard who acts like an assassin.

The point to getting a 'rinth rat to do it. Is also so that the 'rinth rat won't realise who hired them.

Quote from: "Lord Noble"

Quote from: "Carnage"Do you have any experience with any of this? I have no idea where you're even coming from. There's no reason for a noble to pick a filthy, poorly trained 'Rinth rat with loyalty to the 'sid over his own fiercely loyal and highly trained guard.

Trained in what? Trained in guarding people? Yes. Trained in social ettiquette? Yes. Trained in sneaking over a wall, through a window, slashing Noble Oash's throat, climbing back through the window, past the guards, over the wall and back to the compound without being seen? No.

I would assume Tor scorpions, the Green Berets of Allanak, would actually be well skilled in avoiding enemy detection and climbing. It doesn't even need to come down to clandestine skills. Someone can just grab a uniform, put it on and act like they belong, and quickly get access to the noble during the night.

QuoteIt's perfectly reasonable to have a House assassin who pretends to be a guard. But not have a guard who acts like an assassin.

Why not?

QuoteThe point to getting a 'rinth rat to do it. Is also so that the 'rinth rat won't realise who hired them.

Nobles are basically loved and respected and the equivalent of our celebrities. A Rinthi might not care about this, but who's to say that he's not going to go to that noble (who he may actually owe a favor to) and inform them of this contract? The noble will more than likely know who's put the Rinthi up to it and can form some sort of counter-action. As I said before, a guard can have loyalty for them and do anything ranging from  being fanatically loyal and disgusing themselves and doing a suicide attack or just using more sneakier skills.

my beef with noble assassinations is that there's no way to scale the walls at all...it is -impossible- to break into an estate unsing conventional means, without shadowing someond and following them inside.

Quote from: "mansa"That's a flame, to call anything I say, Ridiculous.

No, that's an opinion.

Quote from: "Carnage"I would assume Tor scorpions, the Green Berets of Allanak, would actually be well skilled in avoiding enemy detection and climbing. It doesn't even need to come down to clandestine skills. Someone can just grab a uniform, put it on and act like they belong, and quickly get access to the noble during the night.

I don't think anybodies expecting the Tor Scorpions to be abolished.  They can realistically expect to perform a wide variety of missions and tasks.

Quote from: "Carnage"

QuoteIt's perfectly reasonable to have a House assassin who pretends to be a guard. But not have a guard who acts like an assassin.

Why not?

Because you aren't hiring your guards to be assassins.  You're hiring them to protect your estate and your family.  Most normal people when asked to kill somebody just like that have a right to be more than a little bit pissed off.  Quite simply, it isn't in the job description.

Quote from: "Carnage"Nobles are basically loved and respected and the equivalent of our celebrities. A Rinthi might not care about this, but who's to say that he's not going to go to that noble (who he may actually owe a favor to) and inform them of this contract? The noble will more than likely know who's put the Rinthi up to it and can form some sort of counter-action. As I said before, a guard can have loyalty for them and do anything ranging from  being fanatically loyal and disgusing themselves and doing a suicide attack or just using more sneakier skills.

And what's to say a guard isn't going to be pissed off that you're asking them to risk/sacrifice their life for something they were never hired to do, and go to your mark and spill everything?

You can argue plently of situations why it would be plausible, and I can offer plenty of reasons why it would never occur.  But I'd rather not argue on this point, since it doesn't have much to do with the main arguement.

You can't justify the continuation of so many barracks of PC guards only on the basis that they might occasionally get to assassinate someone.  There has to be a better reason than that.

QuoteYou can't justify the continuation of so many barracks of PC guards only on the basis that they might occasionally get to assassinate someone. There has to be a better reason than that.

According to Mansa, the only useful thing PC guards do is be pampered and do assassinations for their house. Supposedly PC guards shouldn't do that and only Rinthis should.

QuoteYou can argue plently of situations why it would be plausible, and I can offer plenty of reasons why it would never occur. But I'd rather not argue on this point, since it doesn't have much to do with the main arguement.

And I'm going to roll my eyes as there's been in-game examples.

The fact of the matter, however, is that house guard PCs should be kept in the game. Removing them would be completely idiotic and only lead to taking out more PCs.

I don't want to start a discussion in this thread about being legalistic about the word 'flame'.  I thought it was inappropiate.  I stated my 'opinion'.

The thing is, I feel the world has become -less- threatening.  The players of the game have matured over the past years.  The main plots have different greatly.  There hasn't been a quest to find this magickal item in a castle full of undead creatures in a while.  When was the last time you saw the whole tavern get up and chase a lone elf, because someone had the echo, 'you feel a hand in your belongs, but are unable to catch them' and claimed it was the lone elf thief?  When was the last time an Oashi noble asked you to get you 'a head of an elf' for craps and giggles?

There's more talk of 'gossip' and who's sleeping with whom and for how much.  There's very little outright disagreements.  When was the last time you saw someone storm off and claim, 'I'll kill you!' in the traders inn?  I haven't seen an elven thief in a long time.  Where did they all go?  They are the second most popular race.  Are they all desert tribes, now?

Templars have done a good job, in my mind, in staying 'scary'.

Yes, we've changed.  I still love this game.  Just, we've slowly shifted away from the college boy's game of Knights and Dragons, and become very political about things.

The point about the nobility -not- having PC guards, is that true PC guards have a borring life.  You have some creative 'spark' in your background, but, other than that, you're just standing around, or sitting around, collecting your monthly wage, doing nothing.

What could be done about this?  Create a quest night of your own, each monday or tuesday night.  Do it -every- tuesday night, and keep it regular.  People will know that -tuesday- night is a good night to log in, because you might be taking a trip to Red Storm, or to the Canyons of Waste, or to see how many mantis you can kill outside of Luir's Outpost.

Or, if you're nobility, start to spread out your influnce and spend your coins.  Give thirty coins to some commoner in order to get you some fruit from the Bazaar.  Toy with them a while.  Give them other favours, like getting your dirty clothes cleaned.  Then pay them to sing some song about some VNPC noble that has pissed you off.

A well known PC guard of Tor should not be used in an assassination plot against a Salarr merchant.  If Tor does that, Salarr will seek some kind of revenge.  -That- is a reason why Tor should hire some 'rinthy bum to carry out the plot.  I dislike PC deaths in a locked room.  It's an increadibly sad and easy kill.  Someone else saw the person go into the place, and you will -never- get away with it 'scott free'.

It's sad when the recruiter of a noble house walks into a tavern, and picks up every commoner not in another houses' gear, and puts them into shiny new armor and says, 'life is now wonderful, you're rich because i give you free food and water!'

That is not a harsh desert world.   PC Guards in a noble house should be a Special Application.

Nobody said all PC guard roles should be taken out.

But I would not mind seeing them be cut down a little.

Many Noble Houses could do very well without a PC guardforce. NPCs can do the job just as well, and that would leave more players to fill other, more dynamic/interesting roles than Noble House Guard.

If you enjoy being a Noble House guard, then you can join one of the Houses that offers such a position to grungy PC commoners. But not all of the Noble Houses should hire PCs into their guardforce.

House Tor I can understand. House Borsail, and start sending them on slave raids. House Oash doesn't seem to strike me as needing PC guards. House Tenneshi doesn't either. House Winrothol does because they can go on slave raids as well.

The suggestion is to cut down on the roles, not remove them completely.

Agreed. Coming from experience, Noble House Guards really -don't- do a damned thing that they set out to do. Oh certaintly, Guard Duties. But that entails following a noble, who more often than not is not neccesarily a -high- ranking noble, to a tavern, and you get to stand around, "Shifting your weight" every so often, and if you're lucky, you sit with said noble.

Bullshit.

Arm is a multi-faceted gem, that allows for too many options for me to count on my ten fingers -and- ten toes. which inherently means i'm not going to type out examples for character ideas...But...Certaintly, it seems that the "trend" is for people to wander around independently for a few days, find the nearest recruiter for a Noble House or Merchant House, and become a Recruit, therefore making their lives SIMPLE as can be from then on in.

I agree with what was said earlier...Tuluk's cushyness stems from these easily accessible guard units. Take for example, Winrothol and Tenneshi. Obvious Rivals. Neither would willingly dissipate its PC guard force, without the other submitting, so its an OOC stalemate. Each house tries to burgeon its ranks with PC's, to make a statement. Why? I'm uncertain. Its some sort of pissing contest. But I digress...

The world of Armageddon doesn't quite fit up to its name at this point in time, in regards to Northern Politics (blech)...There is a lack of this supposed "behind the scenes" intrigue, simply because at least a fourth of the population, if not much more, consists of Noble House Guards. It should be called Farmageddon, as all I see in the North is, as said previously, recruiters farming for those people wearing grey hide boots and a rough canvas backpack.

I agree with Mansa that PC guards should be special app. If you really want to stand around, shifting your weight next to your favorite noble, do so, but it shouldn't be so widely accessible as to let every newbie have a cushy, paying job at the drop of a hat.

shrug.

QuoteI agree with Mansa that PC guards should be special app. If you really want to stand around, shifting your weight next to your favorite noble, do so, but it shouldn't be so widely accessible as to let every newbie have a cushy, paying job at the drop of a hat.

If it's such a boring job where people do nothing then it doesn't need to be special app since players wouldn't want to join them.

My favorite character was a noble house guard. I've also spoken with a few people whose favorite characters were noble house guards as well.

Quote from: "Carnage"According to Mansa, the only useful thing PC guards do is be pampered and do assassinations for their house. Supposedly PC guards shouldn't do that and only Rinthis should.

I do appreciate your non-arguements, since I don't have to argue against them.  If you're going to quote me as if for a rebuttal, then I don't see any point in rebutting against Mansa's arguement instead.

Quote from: "Carnage"And I'm going to roll my eyes as there's been in-game examples.

Ahh, forgive me Carnage!  It must be alright because it happens in-game!  How I've misunderstood Armageddon!  Now excuse me while I walk into a tavern, kill somebody and loot them, and then flee to the rinth.  Considering it has happened IG in the past, there can't be anything wrong with it.

By definition, loyalty and expendebility don't go well together.  If you start pushing your guards into suicide missions, then before long you can expect muttering, desertion, and even betrayal once the rest of the guard force begins figuring out what's going on.  To add to the problem, if anybody glimpses your assassin, or captures or kills him, they now have a direct link to you as soon as somebody mentions that they saw that guy in the uniform of House X.

I could go on, but I won't.  I don't contest that there have been guard-assassins in the past, I don't even contest that the situations have been valid and ICly viable, even though I don't know that they have been.  But the way I see it is that telling your guards to go assassinate somebody is little more than a half-assed way to get them off their barstools when they're bored as shit and have begun logging in less.

After gathering information, it seems to me that there are clans up north that have succesfully dealt with their noble guard force, and if what they do works, then they should remain intact.  I haven't noticed as much success with House Tor in the south, but considering the enormous amount of potential it has for Scorpions, I wouldn't want to see it removed.  You act as if we suggest to make it so that players are never given the opportunity to play a guard, and nothing can be further from the truth.

But not every clan needs a PC guard force.  Some people will still want to play guards, and they should be given the opportunity.  But without special apping, they certainly don't require the option of playing a guard everywhere.  The minor shift in focus that we suggest would both streamline the playerbase of paramilitary types, and make guard positions that much more elusive.  Very positive effects.  Do you have any better ideas to accomplish those same effects?

QuoteMy favorite character was a noble house guard. I've also spoken with a few people whose favorite characters were noble house guards as well.

Being a guard has its moments, I'll give you that. But, IMO, the overall experience of a guard is extremely boring.

a) As a guard, most nobles will send you on errands for not only them, but for nobles of other houses as well. I'm sorry, but I am not a fucking errand boy. I am a trained killer, with only one mission in mind: My noble's safety. It sort of dilutes the whole 'guard' premise, don't you think?

b) Idling for endless hours, waiting for SOMEONE to log on because you have already bored your arse off tidying up the barracks and doing your routine patrol.

c) Being sent on a 'special mission' to assassinate someone: guards are not assassins, they are guards. I find it hard to believe that a noble would take the chance of losing a highly trained guardsman just to get rid of some dick they don't like. This is where the street assassins come in. This way, they have no loss, and can pay cheap for an easy, efficient job. The economy keeps spinning, and everyone wins!

d) It's no fun being a guard unless you have companions, and for the Houses that do, they are only spreading the player-base thinner IMO.

There's some fat to chew on.

Quote from: "Delirium"House Borsail, and start sending them on slave raids. House Oash doesn't seem to strike me as needing PC guards. House Tenneshi doesn't either. House Winrothol does because they can go on slave raids as well.

Winrothol and Borsail are highly unlikely to go on slave raids. And if they did it would be so rare thet they should be lumped with the other houses and have no PC guards. If those Pc's want to be slavers they should become independant slavers hehe.

Those are slave dealing houses Dead Newbie, it is what they do.

Delirium - The problem with some noble houses having guards and others not having guards is that it ends up skewing the balance of power regardless of whether or not one house has all the money and power.

Take Oash and Borsail.  If Borsail had their guards removed, and Oash didn't, if trouble breaks out between the clans, who has the immediate advantage of being able to send a well-trained assassin after the other?  Oash.  Regardless of the fact that Borsail is richer and would therefore probably have a slightly better guard force.

If these clans are going to be kept around, the payscale needs to change.

Borsail Wyvern and Oash Elite should get paid far more than a Kuraci Regular or a Kadian Hunter.

The flat 300 sid a month thing for every merchant and noble house doesn't make sense.

If Borsail guards got 500 sid a month, it would make the reality that they are an esteemed house that much easier to play.

Winrothol may not engage in slave raids, but rest assured that the Borsail do.

Quote from: "Dan"Those are slave dealing houses Dead Newbie, it is what they do.

True. I just have never seen them go on a slave raid in my two years of playing. I have never played either house so for all I know they raid constantly. But I doubt it.

I was a bynner once, and they paid us to help them go out on a slave raid for arena games. It was quite a bit of fun.

If people think the world isn't harsh enough, then now is the time to start making PCs who can do that.  As has been pointed out a few times in this thread, there have been changes which might make it easier for PC on PC conflict without other things getting in the way.

When the number of Houses are cut down, or, when the playerbase increases and all the spots allowed in each House are filled (assuming a cap is implemented), or, when recruiters become more callous about whom they allow into their ranks, the game will become harsher.

Until then, bear with the game as it is. Truthfully, it is not suffering overly. And as someone else said, if you want to see conflict, be conflict.

Something I find amusing is the players have increased to 50 on peak, almost double what it was when I first started playing. And yet only 2 extra Houses have opened up, yet everyone is complaining about the amount of Houses there are.

I don't think the fact there are more houses is the problem. I think the fact there are more people in said houses is the problem. It wasn't uncommon for there to be 1 or no people in any of the merchant houses or in some of the noble houses.

I agree, John. And actually, only one more House was really added to the number, for Fale was closed, and Winrothol and Tenneshi opened. So perhaps you are correct in your assumption.

But what I will say is that I don't think the game has become worse. I think there has been less harshness, but I think it primarily visual harshness. The subtle stuff has stepped up, and perhaps this is not as fun for everyone, but for those involved, it certianly is.

I fully support more IC harshness. Just make sure it remains IC, and does not become some greatly OOC solution. Zharia and Vendrya scripts come to mind as great solutions to add the natural and even artificial dangers to the world that should exist.

Quote from: "John"Something I find amusing is the players have increased to 50 on peak, almost double what it was when I first started playing. And yet only 2 extra Houses have opened up, yet everyone is complaining about the amount of Houses there are.

It's not just two new houses.  Each house has, or has had, aides, assistantes, guards and nobles.

Plus coded desert elf clans, plus the addition of the Tuluki militia, plus existing clans expanding into other areas necessitating an entirely new structure.

I'm still of the opinion that Oash should be shut down and Tor and Borsail left open in the south. Two noble Houses in the north, two noble Houses in the south. Tor and Borsail have conflict, and Winrothol and Tenneshi have conflict, and the shutdown of Oash would open up more players for roles elsewhere.

I'm sure it's a very unpopular opinion, though, and I'm even more sure that it'll never happen.

As far as CRW's point, I can see what you're trying to say. Thing is, guards end up being used as aides/errand boys/quest seekers/assassins - in other words, everything but what being a guard for a noble house should actually entail.

So instead of using guards for what they weren't hired to do.. why not hire aides, craftsmen, and hunters (to complete those quests/gather materials), instead of guards? Guards should not be used for those things, their duties are to patrol the estate and protect the noble's person.  I'm not saying that the PC base of a noble house should be non-existant, I'm saying the position of Guard should not be a PC position, just as 'captain of the guard' or 'house overseer' is usually not a PC position - the only times a PC gets into those positions is if you specially apply. Which would still be an option for those people who REALLY want to roleplay patrolling the estate, standing next to a noble and scratching their ass, or warming a barstool.

Maybe a change like that would move people to actually contract out to outside assassins, which never seems to happen very often. Especially in Tuluk - that's what the whole licensed assassin system is set up for, practically, but instead, they just use their own noble house guards and the sap trying to make a living as an assassin up there is SOL.

Quote from: "Delirium"I'm still of the opinion that Oash should be shut down

If you did you'd get rid of the single noble house that openly hires magickers. Get rid of Tor if you want to get rid of a House. After all, all they have is guards (which is of course not the case. That's the only thing that people publicly see).

I'm of a slightly different opinion.  I don't think that House guards should necessarily only be guards.  On the contrary, I think that they are there primarily to serve their nobles, particularly in martial activities.  Of course they guard, but it only requires so many people to be bodyguards to the nobles, and security for the estates.  A house guard can also be a spy, or an entertainer, or an assassin, or an artist, or a physician, or a craftsperson, or any number of things.  And all of these other skills can be useful to nobles.

I think that many nobles houses have modeled their guard forces after the Byn, only more upper-crust.  Maybe that's the way it should be, I don't know.  But that's not how it has to be, in every case.

Consider Gurney Halleck from Dune as an example of a House guard who is not just a mute piece of meat.

Oash is not, or was not the last time I knew, the only Southern House which openly hires magickers. Tor also had its stash of elementalists.

Just my small, minute, unimportant opinion here, but why close a house around players ears if they happen to be enjoying what they do? I'd personally be pissed if a house was closed while I'm part of it, especially in the situation I am now where I've found a house that's more active than any other place I've been outside the Byn. And to be honest, the guards for the house I play in are all NPC, unless a PC is requested to do the job. And that rarely happens, usually only long enough to escort the noble from point A to point B, then it's back to your normal business. I haven't played this game long enough to really be of any help toward the actual discussion, but I just wanted to put my opinion on it.

Tor only openly hires Krathi (I don't think that's IC-sensitive info), and even then only a small number of them.  They might use other magickers on a contract basis, but they are not clanned, accepted employees of the House.

I'm only going to comment on hiring practices.

On my last house officer I had to almost fight the nobles (pc and NPC)      To  -not- hire people, I know why they wanted to hire every loose pc in the game, because it takes 20 pc's to get 1 lasting guard.

My char on the other hand was using discriminating hiring practices, he was perfectly willing to turn people he saw as unfit away (normaly pointing them at the other noble house, you all can thank me for that ragtag bunch) And multiple times let people go at the end of the "recruit" phase. And let me tell you, that was often a fight too.

So, I guess what I'm saying is I agree with prior posters here that say it is sad that a noble or officer of the the house will just grab up any warm body to fill the ranks, this is unrealistic to me.

I remember much farther back when I had a Tor LT, at the time the hiring practice was to only hire out of the byn, this seemed silly to me, why would the grand martial house Tor hire from some nasty merc group's castoffs? So, for his lifetime he changed that, with the help of the house nobles and senior advisor Riandra, to training thier own guards after what was probly the longest interview process of any house at the time.

I think it is up to the houses to be more picky, I don't think guards should be removed or special app, but the players of the nobles and officers of the houses should be more prideful of the house and settle only for the best.

Quote from: "crymerci"I'm of a slightly different opinion.  I don't think that House guards should necessarily only be guards.  On the contrary, I think that they are there primarily to serve their nobles, particularly in martial activities.  Of course they guard, but it only requires so many people to be bodyguards to the nobles, and security for the estates.

I agree on that. Guards can be military advisers, scouters, experts in blending in with the seedier places (such as Red Storm), bounty hunters, etc, etc. However the problem is it takes a long time for a guard to become trustworthy and skilled. And by that stage they're well known among the PCs so using them for scouting other cities in disguise isn't possible. Why? Because the chance of someone using their OOC knowledge about a character increases dramatically. Yes, that sounds like we're catering to the lowest denominator, but that's what an Imm said to me one time.

One way for House guards to have more to do, is for characters not to become House guards the second they join the game. Live. Become good at combat. THEN when you join a clan you will have proved yourself. Now how can you do that? Fucked if I know ;)

The Merchant Houses can also interact with the Noble Houses more. I said this in IRC and I think it's a good idea. I think the possibility for deals to be made could be pretty big. Has Kadius found a new source of ivory that is in the middle of Desert Elf territory, they can go to Tor to help them guard an outpost. Or go to Borsail and get them to enslave the tribe, or go to one of the northern Houses for reason whatever *knows nothing about those stinking northerners*

Kurac could also do it. Go to any of the Noble Houses and get them to help them get rid of the Mantis. This wouldn't make the Noble Houses mercenaries though. The difference would be they're doing it for mutual benefit. You can't simply say "here's some 'sid." There'd have to be a long-time benefit (such as a strong Tor prescence in Luir's Outpost to defend Allanak or a strong Borsail prescence in Luir's to go get slaves).

Quote from: "crymerci"A house guard can also be a spy, or an entertainer, or an assassin, or an artist, or a physician, or a craftsperson

With the exception of physician and assassin (as long as they're hired for that purpose and guarding is a front) that's where I draw the line for the Upper Tier Noble Houses (which is all that's open for the players).

Yes, Dune had a guard who was an entertainer. But Dune isn't Zalanthas and Atreides certainly isn't Upper Tier (IMO). The lesser Houses, possibly. The Merchant Houses, sure. Upper Noble Houses, definitely not (IMO).

Quote from: "Delirium"... Especially in Tuluk - that's what the whole licensed assassin system is set up for, practically, but instead, they just use their own noble house guards and the sap trying to make a living as an assassin up there is SOL.

Licensed assassin system? Is the real name of Tuluk maybe
Ankh-Morpork and the sorcerer-king is called Vetinari? Damm! I guessed it. Another Discworld MUD...

QuoteBy definition, loyalty and expendebility don't go well together.  If you start pushing your guards into suicide missions, then before long you can expect muttering, desertion, and even betrayal once the rest of the guard force begins figuring out what's going on.

Right. We've obviously never had a such thing as suicide bombers. Not in the real world, not in Zalanthas.

QuoteTo add to the problem, if anybody glimpses your assassin, or captures or kills him, they now have a direct link to you as soon as somebody mentions that they saw that guy in the uniform of House X.

We all know how difficult it is to remove clothing and put on another set. :roll:

QuoteI could go on, but I won't.

Okay. Then why is there more to your post?  

QuoteI don't contest that there have been guard-assassins in the past, I don't even contest that the situations have been valid and ICly viable, even though I don't know that they have been.  But the way I see it is that telling your guards to go assassinate somebody is little more than a half-assed way to get them off their barstools when they're bored as shit and have begun logging in less.

Right. So basically, guards are supposed to sit around and look pretty. They're sire as hell not as well trained as that Rinth rat who learned to fight by kicking the crap out of rats.

QuoteAfter gathering information, it seems to me that there are clans up north that have succesfully dealt with their noble guard force, and if what they do works, then they should remain intact.  I haven't noticed as much success with House Tor in the south, but considering the enormous amount of potential it has for Scorpions, I wouldn't want to see it removed.

By 'gathering information', do you mean IMing people and going 'lol how does ur clan work??'  

QuoteYou act as if we suggest to make it so that players are never given the opportunity to play a guard, and nothing can be further from the truth.

How many people are going to special app to play guards? There's going to be two possibilities of what's going to happen: The first is that guard numbers will stay the same. However, Naephet is going to take even longer to respond to special apps because it's clogged up with house guard apps. Great The second is that house guard PC numbers are going to drop. With less PCs in a house, chances are good that there's going to be less servants. And without either of the two, the role of noble is completely useless. You've just destroyed five clans then. Even better.

Then there's a possibility that you'll want to lynch out people such as bards and make them special app only, or magickers special app only, or crafters special app only, or whatever the flavor of the week is.

QuoteBut not every clan needs a PC guard force.  Some people will still want to play guards, and they should be given the opportunity.  But without special apping, they certainly don't require the option of playing a guard everywhere.  The minor shift in focus that we suggest would both streamline the playerbase of paramilitary types, and make guard positions that much more elusive.  Very positive effects.  Do you have any better ideas to accomplish those same effects?

Actually, yes I do. And it doesn't come down to forcing players to mail the MUD account or wait long and tedious periods: At any time, an immortal can tell a overzealous recruiter to stop. OMG! IMAGINE THAT! AND THERE'S NO RIDICULOUS SYSTEMS IMPLEMENTED HOLY SHIT I WIN!!!!!!!!111

QuoteAhh, forgive me Carnage!

Apology accepted.

I said a few words about this in the crim-code debate, and I'll expand them a little here.

House guards should not be used as assassins to off important people. For that, you ideally want a Special Ops type branch of the House who do not advertise their affiliations and are kept for spying and assassination purposes. The public embarrassment to the House if one of your personal guards is spotted in the attempt and the templars have to ask you to give her up would be considerable.

However, where a beating or even killing needs to be inflicted on someone who doesn't have any political sway, someone who's annoyed the noble somehow, the guards should be quite capable of handling it. The corps of guards is not a subtle tool, but I imagine it would be a not infrequently employed means of intimidation should a commoner fail to comply with a noble's wishes.

I do think there are too many guards in game, and that it does dilute the harshness of the game to a large extent, but I can see uses for them. I would prefer to see a vastly more discerning hiring policy, but a House with only a couple of guards may have difficulties in gathering a critical mass for internal RP, so I understand partially where the recruiters are coming from. Nonetheless, having such a number of jobs that almost ensure food and shelter for life softens things hugely.

Quirk

Since we're in a fit of proving superiority...

QuoteRight. We've obviously never had a such thing as suicide bombers. Not in the real world, not in Zalanthas

Loyalty:  A feeling or attitude of devoted attachment and affection. Often used in the plural: My loyalties lie with my family.

Fanaticism:  Excessive enthusiasm, unreasoning zeal, or wild and extravagant notions, on any subject, especially religion; religious frenzy.

QuoteWe all know how difficult it is to remove clothing and put on another set.

We all know how difficult it is to copy/paste an sdesc.

QuoteRight. So basically, guards are supposed to sit around and look pretty. They're sire as hell not as well trained as that Rinth rat who learned to fight by kicking the crap out of rats.

IRL I have fought those trained in dojos and those trained on the streets.  Know what the difference is?  Style.  That's it.  Offensive fighting comes down to one basic principle:  Intersecting your own matter pattern with the matter pattern of another being in a painful manner.  Doesn't matter where you learned or from who, what matters is how much you learned, and how well you apply it.  A rinth rat is used to fighting for his/her life every day of the week, a trained guardsman spars constantly and receives lessons.  Difference?  I think so.  The rinth rat dies if he doesn't quite grasp the concept, the guardsman gets another chance.  

QuoteBy 'gathering information', do you mean IMing people and going 'lol how does ur clan work??'

Can you say a single damn thing that isn't derogatory?

QuoteActually, yes I do. And it doesn't come down to forcing players to mail the MUD account or wait long and tedious periods: At any time, an immortal can tell a overzealous recruiter to stop.

Can and will are completely different.  For a long time, I knew of one house that is abso-fucking-lutely over the goddamn top with recruitment.  If that is still happening, I don't know, but it was ridiculous.  I do agree that players should not spec app guards, it would bog down everything hideously.

Owned...Was going to write something similar to Malifaxis' but he said all i wanted to and more.

I have the feeling, that is the next thread Sanvean will close... :roll:

The only thing I have seen which I think in one jolt contributed a deal to the harshness of the game was the stun code, especially right after it went in and things still needed to be tweaked a little.  Other than that, it all ebbs and flows, but the overall potential degree of harshness is the same.

I remember periods of time when being a combat character was considered twinkish by the playerbase apparently and times when everyone seemed to be playing one.  When nobody seemed to be playing a combat character, going outside a city was suicidal for a lot of people, but the NPCs out there weren't actually that bad.  When everyone was playing combat characters, there were NPCs out there that were balanced to take care of combat characters.  Overall shifts in the PC population really have been countered by shifts in the NPC population, from my perspective.  This means that over time, while the critters out there change in difficulty, the overall harshness of the game from that perspective hasn't changed.

Those same PC fluctuations obviously carry over into the game world.  With a prevalance of combat characters, or a lack of such, everyone is pretty much still balanced, overall.  I remember when Tor pretty much had the -only- decent combat characters in Allanak outside of the Rinth.  If you get imbalances like that, things tend to come along to, um, rebalance things.

Darn, getting all nostalgic now, wanting to play a Tor again.  *sniffs*

Someone said that Borsail and Tor have conflict (I forget who after reading all of this and don't feel like going back to check)...why don't Oash and Borsail?  They are both top-tier Houses and should be more in competition than Borsail and Tor.  Borsail should be amused by the mid-tier House's attempts to one up them...Tor should be more interested in just getting a higher rank than the next one up the ladder.

j0ram's take on this, since apparently he was one of the evil people at the heart of this original conversation.

It isn't really a matter of "not as much death". The key was fear. The mud just isn't as frightening anymore.

I remember, back in "the day", when there were people that were just scary. Certain templars, nobles, even merchants, members of certain crime groups. Back when you there was very -little- contact between the north and south. When you could live in the south and go your whole pc life without seeing another pc northerner. Yet, there were certain people in the north that had such reputations that they were frightening.

The game just had a more intense atmosphere. Tight knuckles and sweaty palms. Individuals had enough power to make or break entire clans, because their own clans were so powerful.

There are two main reasons behind this, that I see. One is likely to just cause flames, so I'll let it go without saying. The other is the fact that the game has become, in my opinion, too user friendly. It's too easy to survive on your own. Be it as a hunter, gatherer, criminal, whatever. In the before-years, it was very rare to find someone who could make it on their own, the resources simply were not available to the individual. Money, food, water. So what did they do? They had to join a clan. -Everyone- was in a clan. It makes it an entire different kind of game when you shift from player vs player interactions to clan vs clan interactions. Players still plot, but without the strong clan influence, plots are not as widely spread (and no, I am -not- saying that modern day Arm does not have wide spread plots).

So my suggestion, find ways to pull people back into the clans. Right now there are more unclanned people than there are clanned people (from my point of view). If you clan them, things will come.

---end post---

There, now stop pestering me, Shal.

Quote from: "Carnage"By 'gathering information', do you mean IMing people and going 'lol how does ur clan work??'

I think I'm done pretending that I respect your opinion enough to argue.

Quote from: "spawnloser"Someone said that Borsail and Tor have conflict (I forget who after reading all of this and don't feel like going back to check)...why don't Oash and Borsail?

They do...they are in serious competition.

Animosity between a few PCs does not competition between noble houses make.   Even dislike or disdain does not competition make.  The disparity in resources and power between the top of the Upper Tier and the middle of the Middle Tier is massive.

Yes, I know, uberjazz.  That was a rhetorical question, which I thought went without saying to those that read my entire post.

I'm only going to step in once more to say:

While discussion and any opinions that spur discussion on this subject have validity and are interesting to read, the flames and attacks on each other for having said opinions are not.

You are not children, I hope. This is not the SA forums, so your caustic slings toward those with differing opinions are not welcome here. If you want to vent your frustrations, then do them somewhere else, just not in response to another person's valid point of view without having to resort to extreme exaggeration and blatant flaming to get a response.

The goal of any discussion is not to make someone else look stupid. It is to provide one's opinions and reasons for those opinions. If you cannot post without refraining from being disrespectful and inflammatory, then simply do not post at all.

This is the only thing I'm going to say on the matter. If you think your post inspired this, it probably did. We don't expect rainbows and kittens, but it isn't too much to hope for, to expect mature discussion on a topic that is relevant to the game you play.

Thank you.

Ix

Back to the topic at hand.

I don't think the solution you're suggesting works with the way the game-world is currently set up, j0ram, and here's why.


In former times, PC clan leaders were likely made less aware of their relatively low status in the clan and the restrictions this would put on their leeway to alter relationships with other clans. PC nobles these days are rarely of a level that they can decide House policy, and PC templars have generally been made aware that they cannot throw their weight around as if they were a red robe or black robe without actually being a red robe or black robe. The end result is that, while clan interactions are vastly more realistic than before, individual PCs do not have the same power to make or break other clans.

With more restrained relations between Houses than previously, being in a clan does not necessarily offer any more room for plotting than an imaginative independent can come up with on their own. It should also be noted that the Houses have only a tiny fraction of the population in their service, and that there is no good reason why the majority of PCs should be serving in one.

Rindan previously came up with the suggestion that the game needed more small clans, commoner extended families and tribes, which would be of a scale where PC leadership could legitimately decide policy on their behalf. Although there would be a danger that their PC population would warp their IC influence and power (much as happens with the Byn), I think this would resolve many of the issues implicit in keeping the big Houses handled in a realistic manner. How precisely those small clans should be dealt with is a question for another thread.

Quirk

I would hate to see Oash disappear as an option to play.  I think they have a very valid part of the game world as a whole.  Perhaps we need another recruitment push for new people...yet trying to keep the 'harshness' of the world going.  I see small steps, so far, in making it a bit more hard to live in the citystates.  I like the current changes.

Quote from: "Malifaxis"I do agree that players should not spec app guards, it would bog down everything hideously.

Oftentimes I find myself adopting a more mild stance just to deal with the arguments against my position.  The reason I argue for guards to be specially applied isn't because I want to see it bog down the special app system, but because I think if it was changed to special app then most if not everyone would stop bothering to play guards in the restricted houses at all.

Where would this leave us?  Lets start by taking a look at where we are now.  Maybe a guard can function as an assassin, even though that's obviously not really what guards are for.  Is every PC guard in the house an assassin then?  No, of course not.  What it comes down to is a bunch of people that are bored and aren't logging in just so that the one guard that's an assassin has a cover of sorts, and doesn't stand out.  Is that a good use of PC resources?  I think not.

Now suppose we restricted guards to one clan in each city-state.  In the south it would be Tor, in the north it would be Winrothol.  I have no idea if Winrothol would be a good choice, but other people seem to think so.  The other clans wouldn't be shut down, they simply wouldn't hire guards anymore.  Because of this, the clans that do hire guards have a benefit in that they can pick and choose who they want to hire, rather than being forced into a frenzy in which they attempt to recruit everybody that they can.  Tor in the south, for instance would have a much larger playerscape to draw on, and missions in the wastes would suddenly occur much more frequently.  These changes would draw a lot of PCs to Tor.  Perhaps not all of them would actually get into Tor, but that isn't a bad thing.  A noble house's need for guards is fixed, and their turnover rate is very low.  It IS hard for a commoner to get into one, and most will simply dream about it their whole lives.

Lets examine the supposed negative impacts.  Would Tor suddenly gain a huge amount of power over Oash and Borsail?  I think not.  Unless Oash and Borsail are doing something odd, then they won't need their guards to do anything but protect the estate, the family, and perhaps the higher-up commoners serving the house.  Sure, Tor might be able to draw assassins from the ranks of their guards, but they'd have to deal with the risk that the guard would be recognized as being a former employer of their House.  As for the other Houses, lets not act as if they are suddenly devoid of assassins when the occasion to use them is right.  Using a House Guard for the job is but one option of many.  I don't think I need to explain this, as I'm sure you all can use your own ingenuity as an adequate substitute.

I don't agree that Oash should be closed, or any other clan for the matter.  I don't like the clan, it has no nobles half the time, and I've never met a PC in it whom I thought was particularly well-played, but for now I'm limiting my argument to the exclusion of PC guards from Oash, and not the abolishment of Oash altogether.

The main reason I suggest this change is because while Oash, Tor, and Borsail are distinct entities, their PC guards are really pretty much exactly the same clan, except that they get different gear when they stick with that clan long enough.  I won't go so far as to say that we don't need PC guards at all, but I will say that we don't need three of what amounts to the exact same clan.  Instead we should pool the clan-base into Tor, which has the most potential and in my opinion, could go the farthest with an increased playerbase.

I would suggest if only one, not only one, and have it be per House, all Houses, period, as a barest minimum.

If it was only one, however, the issue would be that no noble's guard would be worth anything because they would suck.  Noone to train you means very little training...unless you were good already, which does sound appealing, but they would still not get much better with only a dummy to spar with.  If anything, I would suggest two per House, with some exceptions.  Noble House are not an exception, Kadius and Salarr would be two per city, Nenyuk...I don't think I've ever seen a PC guard so that's a moot point, and Kurac maybe something like two per location that they operate openly from, and finally Militia possibly only two per city...maybe three, depending on how heavy a soldier presence the IMMs want, I suppose..  Within those limits, one of these guards can be anything that they are qualified to be.  This would make more people work to be good so that there can be 'interviews' for being a guard where they are given a good interview and they basically have to 'audition' possibly by showing how good they actually are.  This would encourage people to go do stuff and try to make contacts so that when someone dies they can get their job...maybe encourage more wacky fun with people trying to kill for those jobs.  It would be mayhem, and frankly, I'm starting to like it.

However, I would not suggest instantly telling people they have to quit or something...give anyone the option to retire, if they would like too, I suppose, though I wouldn't in that position.  Then, no House that excedes their limits would be allowed to recruit until they drop below the limit.  Just to clarify, the numbers I used, were made up.  I'm throwing them out for people to possibly say what they think on them, or make up their own numbers and say why they like them instead.  One thing I can say for certain on them, however, is that I do not think any House that has only one location should have any less than two for the reason I cited above.  I will admit that some locations with more could possibly do with less than I listed.

In addition, I believe one aide-like person should be allowed, especially for Houses that have more than one family person directing stuff about...like several noble Houses at different times that I know of.  Also, anything special that a House does could affect things.  Winrothol, have two or three bards...Tenneshi, actually have someone for selling construction projects...Tor, one or two additional guards (one a krathi) for helping to run the Academy...Borsail, um, I dunno as I don't really know them well enough to hypothesize at what they could have as a bonus...Oash could have two magicker guards (of any variety they wish) and only one mundy one.  All of these could replace the aide option, as a possibility.

How is Tor going to do anything interesting with only two Scorpions?  A Tor Scorpion isn't so much a guard as it is a real, bonified soldier.

Furthermore, I don't think managing -everything- would be a good idea.  Clans need a measure of freedom based on their needs at any given moment.  I only want to remove the redundancy of the three southern houses.  The guards of Borsail, Tor, and Oash pretty much have the same function.  They are in essence, the same clan.  That's why I think we should do away with the two, and keep the one that has the most potential to provide entertainment to its players.

If you notice, I suggested adding one or two to that for special stuff, depending on House.  Read the whole post, man.

Quote from: "spawnloser"If you notice, I suggested adding one or two to that for special stuff, depending on House.  Read the whole post, man.

I did read the whole post.  You can't go out into the desert if you only have two PCs, especially since most of the time they won't both be logged on.  Five or six is a more solid number.

In all honesty, I don't wanna see no Houses. Two per city, with a ten PC cap per house, solves the problem...period. The Merchant Houses are a far different matter, and I think they should stay as they are.

Furthermore, I want to see leaders that lead, not a buncha knuckleheads who got hold of a buncha money to further support their tavern sitting and whoring. I want to see folks actully into the world, participating fully. I wanna see Immorrtals who actually work their Houses, setting up plots, etc.

I want to see independants make something of themselves. I want to see a lotta things. We all do.

In the end, the game is not broken, and while we may suggest a great many 'solutions', none of them would really make playing this game much more fun. None of them would actually improve the world. What we need, in the end, is more players. If we set a cap on the amount of PCs allowed in a House, we will force Houses to become more selective. If the Immortals are all active in their Houses, we will see more things for PCs to do. If we see more players, we will see more interactivity and more roles and more filled positions.

Ultimately, the game is currently successful, and as with anything successful, it has its drawbacks. Kudos to the staff for their current work on this game. If we all can bring one player to this game, the problem we are currently discussing disappears.

So, get to it.

I just think it's a phase and people should ride the wave as it moves back and forth instead of making arbitrary limitations.

Okay so right now there's a plethora of guards in this or that house, and everyone is happy and employed and there's no strife. Solution: Have the clan IMM impose a temporary moratorium on hiring for those clans which have enough to keep everyone sparring their happy little asses off 24/7 (since people log in at all hours of the day and all days of the week).

It would be grossly unfair to impose a permanent "only one or two per house" because with one, as Spawnloser says, they'll suck if they ever have a shot at combat. With two, they'd have to arrange to hire only those two people who are always online at the same time, AND they'd have to always be online at the same time as the noble who employs them. That leaves out a HUGE portion of the playerbase for incredibly OOC reasons.

Not only that.. but let's say we have those two guards, and they're around when the noble's around, and everything's going great - and the noble gets whacked, or retires. New noble shows up but his schedule isn't the same as his guards. What to do now? Fire the guards and hire 2 new ones? Have the guards stay, and have no one to guard and nothing to do and no assignments, while the noble has no one to guard him other than his NPC?

I really don't see any problem with how things are now, at least in the clan I'm in. A great group of people, not a lot, but not so few that we never get to see each other or have nothing to do all day long. There's also something to consider, and that's that not everyone wants to play an independent struggling whatever. Most people want someone to interact with regularly, it's why they play RPGs in the first place. Clans are the place they do that in Arm, for the most part.

I would much rather see nobles and clan leaders take more responsibility in WHO they hire. Turn people down! Release them from service if they don't work out during their recruitment period! I think some folks are putting too much emphasis on making sure newbies stick around by being nice to them and giving them every possible opportunity to succeed, when in some cases it's hurting the IC reputation of their house.

Not all newbies are bad. Most are actually pretty damned good, and some are far better than I was when I first showed up. But if you give a newb a chance, and he shows that he is just not getting it after 2 RL weeks of regular interaction, let the guy go. Just let him go and offer him IC advice on something else he might consider doing for a living. There's no shame in it, from either end of the spectrum.

I'm not going to go back and quibble over details and arguments already presented, but I'll throw in some food for thought.

I don't think that getting rid of some of the PC guard forces is a bad idea at all, with a few stipulations. I think that people have made valid points about the limitations and frequent boredom of a guard's duties. So, instead of hiring on 20 people as guards that sit around and spar, a noble could hire on a more diverse contingent that serve a variety of purposes. Maybe the nobles hire them on more of a freelance or per-job basis, eventually bringing them on fulltime. So, instead of guards, the noble would have a variety of aides, retainers, and kiss asses who are paid coin for services rendered and, if the noble is feeling benevolent, have the ear of one of the city state's nobility. The IC reasoning for this could be that even the great noble houses have somewhat limited resources. The OOC method could be to only allow each noble to keep a certain amount of "full time" employees in their employ at one time.

One problem with this is that the traditional way to "get stuff done" for a noble is to have a powerful contingent of PC guards who can carry out the noble's wishes. The reason being that finding reliable, and effective, freelance help is a crapshoot at best, so the nobility have always pulled their (wo)manpower from inhouse. However, if "guards" as we know them were abolished for most houses, it would force freelance people to step in to fill that gap. This also has the added advantage of involving more of the population in intrigue as well as adding an additional element of risk to scheming since most power struggles would involve enlisting the aide of those outside one's house and not just sicking your superior PC guard contingent on someone else's.

When I ran nobles, I actually preferred to do without a guard force. I liked to have one or two excellent aides who were capable of making connections, organizing my affairs and carrying out my wishes. I always found the overseeing of a standing guard force to be tedious, and in the case of most of my nobles, unrealistic (they really weren't interested.)

Now, this requires a shift in the way that hiring is done and the way the playerbase looks at "employment." Gone would be the days of free food, water, rent and board. The change would have to occur and be documented staff side in order to make it work. Otherwise, one house might attempt it, and they'd quickly have no PCs in their service because everyone would be running to the house that still offers free food and board.

I can see this system working especially well in the North where there is already a documented patronage system that outlines this concept in theory, if not in practice. Anyway, it's an interesting idea, but it's something of a gamble in that it might upset the existing order and replace it with something that doesn't really function that well.

Them're mah thoughts,
Ain't Nobody

I don't know about limiting houses, but I definately wouldn't limit militia.  When noble houses have missions outside the city they can usually "borrow" city militia as long as there is not a current crisis inside the city.  Militia act as back up for the other houses in the event of . . . an event.  If a crazed mage attacks the Salaar compound, you can bet the militia are going to be on speed dial (or whatever the "way" equivilent is).
Like most house guard jobs a militiaman can't run out of the city to go hunt scrabs whenever they want, but they do have a more interesting patrol area.  House guards are stuck with just a couple locations to guard/patrol; a compound, an estate, the shops, and then they are stuck back sleepwalking through a schedual or sitting in a tavern.  Militia can patrol the whole city, walking around the city takes longer and is more interesting than guarding a gate or a shop.  Theives and assisins hardly ever break into a compound, but there are crimes on the mean streets of the city every day.  Plus you get to hang out with templars, and watch them torture other people for a change.


AC

So, let me make sure I have this clear.

People think that the game is less harsh because there are more clanned characters?

And, a year or more ago, we were hoping for a larger playerbase so we could fill up more of the houses.

So, does this mean that having more players has made the game less harsh?

Quote from: "crymerci"People think that the game is less harsh because there are more clanned characters?

I'm not advocating less people in clans.  If we were to say that House Borsail and Oash couldn't recruit a guard force, it would just mean that people would join other clans that are oriented toward paramilitary.  Maybe some would join the T'zai Byn, or the militia, both of which need high numbers.  The T'zai Byn always needs more grunts to toss into the meat grinder, and the militia always needs more grunts to pay a low wage and then sending them about collecting bribes so that they don't starve to death.  Hopefully, some of these dislocated persons will join Tor, and Tor will finally be allowed to undertake missions that were just too ambitious at their nigh-constant diminutive playerbase.

Quote from: "crymerci"And, a year or more ago, we were hoping for a larger playerbase so we could fill up more of the houses.

I doubt we'll ever be able to fill up all the houses.  Why not settle for a more realistic goal?

Quote from: "crymerci"So, does this mean that having more players has made the game less harsh?

You're a philosipher talking to a pragmatist.  I'll let somebody else respond to that if they care to.

Maybe I am a bit confused but you are essentially trying to limit the RP options of both the city states and the players?

If this does come off as a Flame I apologize, sometimes my post may, but I do not wish it so.

So what there are hundres of guards in the game. Not every player enjoys playing an independent or a delf or mul defiler from the uber levels of Nessalin's keep. How is this hurting the enviroment? Because they are well more than enough guards in the game people think they have no uses? I played a leader role of a guard unit, and regardless of what people say within the clan, there is ALWAYS something going on in the background to keep the PCs in the clans busy. If a PC leader has you start training extensively and does not tell you why, you can bet your ass off that coming up will be a badass rp where you will need to be in your prime shape or if your PC leader tells you to go to the bar and meet people, hey, maybe they are trying to set up some kind of spy network to find out information or their rival house. However, what it comes down to in my eyes is this...There is absolutely NO reason you should limit how many Pcs can go in each clan, UNLESS it is a possible ISO or small tribe. All the Noble houses hire Hundreds, possible THOUSANDS of employees so how is it realistic to say, ok make a cap of two pc guards, one aide, and one noble?

I Am by no means the greatest PC leader, nor would I consider myself a "good" one. But I have to agree with Venomz, we need more PCs to Lead, step up and be aggressive about stuff.  Fuck, I dunno, this is a living breathing thing, and we control it's course ICLY. If we need more people recruit, but just because we do not have enough PCs to be in a clan that you might currently be in to make it enjoyable, do not suggest limiting other clans because more people have fun and enjoy playing those kind of characters.

It''s early, If I upset any of you too bad, it is my opinion, if this came off as a flame, then you all need to lighten up.

Currently playing someone in a leadership position, I can understand both sides of this argument.  It would be nice to have all the guards necessary to beat up all the guards in any other House when I think that they should be...but that isn't really realistic.  I also don't want to be everyone's entertainment supervisor...which I sometimes feel like.  It kinda sucks that, by all rights, I should only be hiring people that are up to certain skills...but if I don't hire them as a completely useless newb, someone else will and there will be noone left for me to hire.  I hire people that are available to keep a group of people that can entertain each other as much as possible, but I can't do that if there is noone to recruit.  I mean...I'm left with a dilemna.  I don't want to hire complete feebs, but I have to...I mean, both for the reason that otherwise there would be noone and because someone being a newbie player in and of itself should not further penalize them, really.

On the other hand...I really like the idea of people having to fight for getting hired.  I'll think of the Marquis and Door every time.

Quote from: "Krath"But I have to agree with Venomz, we need more PCs to Lead, step up and be aggressive about stuff  .....  do not suggest limiting other clans because more people have fun and enjoy playing those kind of characters.

Did you just agree with me and then disagree with me in the same sentence? Damn, that was slick.  :lol:

Here is my reasoning. If we had a cap on players in a House, it would promote competition. It would also promote better selection among and by leaders. You might see some assassinations simply because someone is hunting a spot in the House of Gangstaz. You'd see more political moves, more backtalk, more reputation muddling. You'd see folks bringing those commoner Houses to life. You'd see more PC organizations, more independant hunters, more independant merchants. In short, I think you'd see more life.

I think it would be good for the game. But, of course, I may not be right.

There's a huge problem with putting a cap on how many players you can have at a time.  For arguments sake, let's say we put a cap of 3 warriors in clan X.  So the leader goes and hires 3 people who all play at about the same time.  Suddenly, Hire #1's schedule changes, and while he still plays about 10 hours a week, everyone else in the clan sees him maybe 1 hour a week.  Then the leader's schedule changes, and Hire #3 is gone for a RL week due to OOC things and doesn't tell anyone.  Hire #2 logs in and sees that no one is around, assumes the clan is dead, and logs in for an hour a week, if that.   But all 3 hires are technically "alive", so the leader can't hire anyone else.

Ok, you propose, let's say we can't hire more than 3 active PCs, and we'll define active as "plays for at least 7 hours a week."  Well, the leader never sees his original hires anymore, and so assumes that his people are all gone, hires three more players.  Suddenly, Hire #3 starts logging in again, and Hire #2 is happy now that there are more people, so suddenly the clan has 5 active members, plus Hire #1 out there who is "active" but not seen by anyone else.  The leader of clan Y, who also has a hiring cap of 3, may now commence screaming foul because clan X has 6 active PCs...

It breaks down.  You can't put a hard cap on a clan size, because you essentially destroy the flexibility that makes the clan playable in the first place.

I wasn't suggesting a cap as of now. Right now, I agree that it would be inconvienent. Also, the cap was not to be so small. I would suggest 8 warriors/guard force, 2 nobles, 3 aides, and 2 other roles for whereever. It would only apply to Noble Houses, as well.

In short, the cap would be at 15 for each house. From experience, I know this is a good number. The House I played in actually had more players than that. There were 10 gaurds, 2 nobles, at least 3 aides.

This would only work once there are more players. So, like I said, go get us some players. I'm on the warpath.

It's not really the size of the cap that matters, it's the flow of people.  How do you know when you have 8 guards?  You don't always know when someone has died, let alone stored their character, changed schedules, or just isn't logging in at the moment.  In a perfect world, the clan leaders would know who is in the clan, when they play, and when they die/store/have RL stuff to do.  In the real world, not even the Imms always know where people are.

Ideally speaking, a cap sounds like a pretty good idea.  Practically speaking, it's either unfair or impossible to implement.

I think the most promising thing about this discussion so far is this:  Leaders of Noble Houses, be selective with who you hire.

And that's _my_ feelings and my opinion on this matter.

Quote from: "JollyGreenGiant"It's not really the size of the cap that matters, it's the flow of people.  How do you know when you have 8 guards?  You don't always know when someone has died, let alone stored their character, changed schedules, or just isn't logging in at the moment.

1) You know you have eight guards when the immortal posts it on the clan board, or when the guards introduce themselves on a thread.

2) You will know someone has died when they email the clan immortal and remove themselves from the clan board.

3) You will know if someone has stored their pc because <see above>.

4) You will know if someone has changed schedules, because they will more than likely most it upon the clan board. <same as above>

Granted, nothing is perfect, and there may arise a time when one of the above possibilities does not happen. But seriously, eight guards sounds like a VERY fair cap, IMO.

I have always said I like the cap idea.  

 Why? Because it makes the whole system fair, and that makes the system work.  An example of this theory can be found on almost every college campus:  the (oh-my-gwd-they-are-so-cool) Greeks!  (that's Greeks as in frats and sororities) Many times the campus will have rules about rushing new members, including putting a cap on numbers.

What a cap on houses will do is put the focus on the bigger picture, having people join the clans/houses in the first place.  Maybe Borsail is full, but Oash is accepting applications.  Because of this, every open house is almost guaranteed to not have one active pc or so many pcs people have nothing to do but sit around.

Caps basically spread out the clan/house PC population.  The player population will take notice more if they see many different houses uniforms than just a large blob of uniform from one house.  Caps ensure that we would have support to keep other houses open.  Part of the fun of joining a house is having other houses with which to compete.  Having all one's buddies in one house that have no only virtual people with which to compete is no fun, as would be if there was only one pc in an otherwise virtual house, and every other PC is in a different house.  

Finally, keep in mind the more competition there is and the more pc run plots, the more players will see the fun and want their PCs in that fun... numbers in all the houses would grow.

Quote from: "My 2 sids"
An example of this theory can be found on almost every college campus:  the (oh-my-gwd-they-are-so-cool) Greeks!  (that's Greeks as in frats and sororities) Many times the campus will have rules about rushing new members, including putting a cap on numbers.

Hmm..Damn, I never looked at like that. Being in a fraternity myself, I can understand where you all are coming from. My only issue would be how do you determine the cap number per house so they it is enjoyable and there will 75% of the time be someone on to RP with. If the immortals could agree on a set number which they and the players would agree with as fair, I will support the idea wholeheartidly.

I like the cap. The problem there is you could have 8 guards that log on once a month. You're at your quota, but most of you still have no one to play with.

I think being a house hire should be a special app.... (sort of)....in that, you have to tell the imms that you will "try" to play X number of hours per week after accepting recruitship.

Reaping the advantages that come with being in a clan comes a responsibility to the other players in the clan. To me, it carries almost as much responsibility as the players who play the house leaders.

Quoting myself:

QuoteI think it is up to the houses to be more picky, I don't think guards should be removed or special app, but the players of the nobles and officers of the houses should be more prideful of the house and settle only for the best.

And Mansa:

QuoteI think the most promising thing about this discussion so far is this: Leaders of Noble Houses, be selective with who you hire.

Why make those quotes, because, if the above was true there would be no need for caps.

And I'm strongly against caps for any house, period. Many reasons, not all of which am I going to give, but a very good one is play times and frequency, the clan I am currently in has a reasonable number of players, at least 15, I see maybe 4 on a regular basis, I know another 3 play regular but do to being on the other side of the world, I only get to interact with them if either they decide to get up and start playing around 4am thier time or if I happen to have a day off.
The same applies to them.

I think during the Recruiting and trail phase of your guard career all of that can be determined. Also, on the GDB's for each of the clans, if you were going to be inactive for some long amount of time, you could write a note and let the other people within your clan aware of your situiation, allowing them to hire another person in your absense. However, When I say leave of abense I mean over a 1-2 OOC month peroid, not just like two weeks or such.

Thoughts? Comments? Criticisms?

The problem, I think, with limiting the number of recruits a clan takes in, is many people just brush over the mud once, somehow get into a clan, and then never come back.  I've had this happen to me a few times, and its a pain in the ass.  The alternative is to seek out the really obvious players of this game who actually...well...play.  But unfortunately, they represent a fairly small proportion of the total playerbase.  And they seem to be fairly focused on their own goals for the most part, so you aren't going to get enough to fill up the ranks of your guard unit.

People seem to think they need something huge to be afraid of, but then what really drives the over all atmosphere are the little things.  A templar walking beside you, a superior tripping over you, waiting to see what happens when your employer finds you drunk/skipping work/jailed, the hot breath of an enemy whispering in your ear... these are the details that make up the overall atmosphere in game.  The biggest problem I see happening is that the small details, small moments aren't happening anymore; that's why the game's tone seems less harsh.  To bring back the elements of an over-all harsh tone to the game, the following is some of what needs to happen.

People need to be willing to take more chances. Those PCs who are in houses or "political" pcs in any way... need to take more chances.  I realize gathering information, waiting for responses and people to log in, and developing complicated plotlines takes time... but come on!  There is an issue of playability here.  –Some- of the people in houses... in political ties... -should- mess up, take chances, not think of every little reaction.  If you're drunk and feel insulted by another house... don't think that you're character is capable of restraining that temptation to haul off and smack the guy!  If you don't flat out –know- someone has connections, then feel free to insult, beat, abuse, fine, etc. the person you –know- is lower on the social latter than you.  If your character's enemy walks in... don't always think you're going to react perfectly content... not everyone is able to lie through their teeth every single time!  

The flip side to taking small risks... is to keep the risks and effects small–small-.  Let the punishments and effects fit the risks and crime!  Is a noble –really- going to care that much that his lowly servant (who he might not even know) got looked at weird?  Should someone take –personal- offence when an elf steals 10 sids?  Is anyone really going to remember a bar fight or a jail sentence eight months afterwards?  Let things drop.  Two people get into a bar fight or insult each other... beat em both and call it a day!  Should an employer take personal offence when someone complains about their employee?  Maybe... or maybe they should just punish their employee and be done with the whole thing.

Part of the game is not how people react to your character... but how your character reacts!  Know your character's place!  People can't force players (and thus their characters) to feel anything... don't expect to get the feeling of a "harsh and scary world" when your character isn't allowed to feel afraid!  Don't bitch about not feeling the "harshness" of the world when your half-elf refuses to be scared of pissing someone off.  Don't bitch about not feeling the "harshness" of the game, when your merchant is being robbed!  Don't make excuses of "ooc commitments" or "don't play my character" and expect to have someone yell at you for missing a meeting or saying you missed a spot cleaning.  

The code can only have so much affect on the tone of the game... the rest is up to role-play... the rest is up to the players.

I wonder if My 2 sids' char ran from a half-giant last night.

But who ever did knows at least one other player agrees with My 2 sids post.

Quote from: "uberjazz"The problem, I think, with limiting the number of recruits a clan takes in, is many people just brush over the mud once, somehow get into a clan, and then never come back...

This is another reason why employers (especially noble and merchant house guards/hunters) need to be much more selective when hiring. You shouldn't hire because you're afraid that the last five people you hired aren't ever going to log in again, or because noble house X has more guards, or you need warm bodies (that's what the byn is for), but you hire knowing the person you're going to invest the time to hire/feed/clothe is going to stick around and that they actually have something to do. If you make hiring MORE selective, i.e. based on ic experience within the game, someone who hounds after your recruiter for weeks asking if they'd made a decision on hiring yet, someone who goes after YOU to get hired, not just because they're picked from a bar wearing newbie clothing, then chances are they're willing to make the effort to stick around and be an active part of the clan.

I agree and disagree with Ix. Heh..

With players that seem to know the game and don't look like they just stepped off the Newb' ship I am a bit more selective. I do recruit and -actively- at that, but I will not beg a character to join my house. If you look shady, or seem to be cocky.. forget it. Honestly, I look at it as my house has the best there is to offer, and if I have to convince you of that for more that a few conversation passes, then I'm not going to bother.  And that is with any house that I have had the joy of recruiting for. Because if a person doesn't want to be recruited OOC, they will most likely not stay IC..

Now as for Newbies I am always happy to scoop them up right from the get go, and will go out of my way to do so should they fit the bill of what I am looking for. (This is asuming that they are not a mutant, snippity, cocky, bastard that thinks they should rule the city. The reasons stated below are OOC, but I always consider the character IC first and formost..) Why??

1. It helps them adapt to the game a bit more easily.
2. I think most complete newbs base if they are going to play the game within the first 1-3 days of playing
3. They can ask lots of questions in a private setting where it does not disrupt other players.
4. A sense of belonging for the Newbie. I know that when I first starting playing all not too long ago, I was overwhelmed and basically afraid to Rp with anyone, that I might make a mistake or do something stupid. A very good role-player from a noble house scooped me up and gave me a job.  And with a few house players at my side, I was able to come out of my shell and learned to love the game. A few of my characters were solo's after that. Some even twinkish as I did not full grasp the concept of the game right away.. But it was that first experience that kept me staying on, and eventually I got it..

Quote from: "Ix Machina"

Quote from: "uberjazz"The problem, I think, with limiting the number of recruits a clan takes in, is many people just brush over the mud once, somehow get into a clan, and then never come back...

This is another reason why employers (especially noble and merchant house guards/hunters) need to be much more selective when hiring. You shouldn't hire because you're afraid that the last five people you hired aren't ever going to log in again, or because noble house X has more guards, or you need warm bodies (that's what the byn is for), but you hire knowing the person you're going to invest the time to hire/feed/clothe is going to stick around and that they actually have something to do. If you make hiring MORE selective, i.e. based on ic experience within the game, someone who hounds after your recruiter for weeks asking if they'd made a decision on hiring yet, someone who goes after YOU to get hired, not just because they're picked from a bar wearing newbie clothing, then chances are they're willing to make the effort to stick around and be an active part of the clan.

I couldn't chop it down...its all good stuff.

I agree with all of this, but the problem is, the experienced players who have good RP skills and who play a lot, are less likely to take these jobs, because they know there are so many things out there.  They know that, in reality, it is highly possible they will get stuck in a bland position with nothing to do.  Furthermore, they probably won't be happy with the meager "sometimes I get paid on time 300 sid a month wages", because there are definitely better things out there.  Perhaps the rewards should be upped to those who demonstrate a high quality and quantity of RP, trustworthiness, playtime, etc.  Maybe this is already the case, but I've seen instances where it isn't.

Continuing with the subthread of Ix, sara and uberjazz:

I commend leader types on their efforts to get obvious newbies involved in the game from the get go. However, you can just as easily give them a single task to do for a set amount of 'sid. If they never show up again, then you haven't lost anything. If they do show up again, after completing that task and getting some 'sid, then they've accomplished something ingame, hopefully had some fun, learned a few things, and shown that they might actually stick around long enough to hire on as a fulltime employee. It also lets you see if your playing times are going to generally conincide with the newbie. If they never see you again, no harm done. They can go on to find employment in a clan that better suits their playing times. Maybe someday they'll complete their task, but regardless they've been given some purpose, if only temporarily.

Some examples of tasks and their advantages for the newbie:
*Acquire an item: you could have them get a specific herb, which lets them find out about herbs. Let them get an item that only certain shops carry, which makes them search around and come to understand and explore the different merchants.

*Deliver a message: It doesn't have to be anything major or sensitive. Just some message to another PC. This forces them to go out and interact with other PCs, which is likely a good thing for a newbie.

*Gather information: Just tell them to report anything of interest to you about whatever subject.  This also forces them to interact and be around other PCs. But now they're not just sitting there doing nothing, they've got a reason for being there.

*Any other easily performed task that lets them learn something and gives them purpose.

After giving them a task or two that they succesfully accomplish, then it might be time to "hire" them on a probationary period. Don't give them full clanning, but let them know that if they keep up the good work, then they might have a position that gives food, water, and shelter. Maybe give them a little bit extra starting coin at this point and to help them out while they're not garnering full pay. If at this point they dissapear, you're only out a little bit of coin. It's better than putting them on your payroll and taking up a "spot" on your roster for someone that you'll never see again.

It's important at this time to continue to give them tasks and work with them. I've lost recruits quite often at this stage as they become drawn to other clans due to feeling abandoned by you, the leader. Even if it's just setting up weekly ingame reports and continuing to give them the above type of tasks, just keep giving them some kind of purpose and making them feel a part of something. Rewarding them with coin for services rendered is also a good idea. You might find out, at this point, that they'd work out better as an undercover operative/informant outside of your organization and choose to not take them on full time. It's basically a good time to feel out the employee and decide how they'll fit into your organization.

If after a RL month or so (ingame year) they're still performing well, sticking around, and playing at the same time as you, then it might be time to move on to bringing them fully onboard in your clan.

Anyway, that's my "Guide to Nurturing Newbies". There are definitely other people that are better recruiters and clan leaders than I was when I played, but those were some of the techniques that worked for me.

I just want to chime in to Bakha's post that this is what happened to me when I first began on Arm. While I had a character that worked with different clans or interacted with them, or did odd-jobs to earn a little money, I was never actually clanned, as getting into a clan (at least it seemed that way) was fairly difficult.

So for my first bunch of characters, the first halves or longer of their lives was just going out and doing stuff solo. It was extremely hard to scrape by, but I wasn't doing anything that any other person wasn't doing as most people that I was interacting with were the same as me.. independant solo or independant groups. Occassionally, one of the people in these independant groups would find a job working for a noble house or merchant house, but most of the time its because they'd made a contact in them. Not because the merchant/noble houses were actively recruiting.

This also made people who were able to garner such a position for themselves a LOT more respected than people playing in the same types of positions now. Mostly because these positions weren't thrown out to everyone.

You don't have to clan someone to hire them, but it does become unbalanced when you're a person who does the recruiting for a clan, and is trying to do what Bakha suggested, which is mainly to hire newbies or new characters looking for a job to go and do the odd jobs you're making your loyal and trusted legion of guards to do besides guarding. Things like making deliveries, keeping eyes out, paying people for language lessons in allundean/mirrukim/bendune/anyar/whatever, bringing in supplies (lots of opportunity for independent hunters/rangers/warrior types there), and then someone else scoops them up because they're offering something you're not, namely free food/water/armor/storage. Not because they particularly desire that specific person, but because they want warm bodies and that person doesn't have a 'real' job.

Just because you hire selectively, doesn't mean you can't offer jobs to people, but it does mean you're looking very hard at who you want to offer free food/armor/water/storage/perks to, and that position itself becomes valuable and worthy of retaining. The world of Zalanthas is so harsh because it isn't a place where there are charity cases, and it was never supposed to be a place where everyone walked around in silks and sipped tea with their pinkies out. It IS supposed to be a harsh world (even in cities) where the resources of water, food and shelter become extremely scarce and are fought over and there should be stiff competition for that cushy job working for Lord Fancypants and not just getting 200 sid a month but food, water and shelter as well.

And in keeping with the original question that this thread posed, the current environment in the cities is less harsh because it has lost this feel. Not necessarily a loss of 'scariness', but a feel that water, food and resources are totally plentiful and sid is thrown out to the unwashed masses so they can clothe themselves in silks.

Just something to think about, and again, wholly my personal opinion. But for those recruiters who DO manage to be extremely picky and selective, and aren't afraid to turn people away, or help newbies in other ways than just giving them a clanned position in a role they may end up deciding they really didn't want after all, I have nothing but respect for you.

Quote from: "sarahjc"
Now as for Newbies I am always happy to scoop them up right from the get go, and will go out of my way to do so should they fit the bill of what I am looking for. (This is asuming that they are not a mutant, snippity, cocky, bastard that thinks they should rule the city. The reasons stated below are OOC, but I always consider the character IC first and formost..) Why??

1. It helps them adapt to the game a bit more easily.
2. I think most complete newbs base if they are going to play the game within the first 1-3 days of playing
3. They can ask lots of questions in a private setting where it does not disrupt other players.
4. A sense of belonging for the Newbie. I know that when I first starting playing all not too long ago, I was overwhelmed and basically afraid to Rp with anyone, that I might make a mistake or do something stupid. A very good role-player from a noble house scooped me up and gave me a job.  And with a few house players at my side, I was able to come out of my shell and learned to love the game. A few of my characters were solo's after that. Some even twinkish as I did not full grasp the concept of the game right away.. But it was that first experience that kept me staying on, and eventually I got it..

YES YES YES!!!

Quote from: "bakha"*Deliver a message: It doesn't have to be anything major or sensitive. Just some message to another PC. This forces them to go out and interact with other PCs, which is likely a good thing for a newbie.
*Any other easily performed task that lets them learn something and gives them purpose.

I suppose these would work, provided the character understands if these tasks will or will not lead to clan work.  I know I sure didn't understand what was expected of me my first character.  I didn't know to move on when my new employer died... I didn't know how long the prosses took to get hired!

Quote from: "bakha"*Acquire an item: you could have them get a specific herb, which lets them find out about herbs. Let them get an item that only certain shops carry, which makes them search around and come to understand and explore the different merchants.

If the player doesn't know how to do something... the character won't.  If the character becomes frustrated... the new player will become frustrated.  Keep tasks simple AND ones they can easily preform.  Heck, buy travel cakes from them.  Let them clean your gear.  Let them annouce your name or Way someone.  Something the PLAYER knows how to do.

Quote from: "bakha"*Gather information: Just tell them to report anything of interest to you about whatever subject. This also forces them to interact and be around other PCs. But now they're not just sitting there doing nothing, they've got a reason for being there.

This is by FAR the WORST job in game.  This is not a task... because it cannot be completed.  If you do assign this task to a newbie at least let them use information from the rumor boards.  My big beef with this concept, I stated on my last post... for all the amount of time put into "information gathering" little happens.  A game full of spies isn't going to be "harsh", it isn't going to produce plotlines, and it is not going to be fun.

Something that I keep seeing as an example of how bad the cap idea is, is the fact that newbies and folks in odd time-zones might be pressed to find work. Perhaps everyone missed the suggestion that having a cap would encourage those independant clans. Remember, a lot of the clans that are in the game currently, started as independant clans. With limited positions available, you can be assured that players will begin to rise to the occassion, thus birthing those commoner clans.

Quote from: "My 2 sids"

Quote from: "bakha"*Gather information: Just tell them to report anything of interest to you about whatever subject. This also forces them to interact and be around other PCs. But now they're not just sitting there doing nothing, they've got a reason for being there.

This is by FAR the WORST job in game.  This is not a task... because it cannot be completed.  If you do assign this task to a newbie at least let them use information from the rumor boards.  My big beef with this concept, I stated on my last post... for all the amount of time put into "information gathering" little happens.  A game full of spies isn't going to be "harsh", it isn't going to produce plotlines, and it is not going to be fun.

I'm afraid I'd have to entirely disagree with you on that last line. An effective spy keeps his or her paymasters well informed on the schemes of other movers and shakers, thereby stretching the effects of others' plots much further than they would have gone otherwise and frequently bestirring said paymasters into action. What a spy discovers may galvanise an entire House and provide RP for months. As far as harshness goes, spies are not infrequently called on to perform assassinations, to illictly acquire stolen or contraband goods and in general to have dealings with the criminal element - a far far harsher mode of living than your House guards and aides have to deal with, and far harsher on a PC vs PC basis than hunters or mercenaries. Spying can be incredibly good fun, too, piecing together the many strands of other people's lies and trying to figure out what really is happening.

I would agree though that spying fulltime isn't the best job for a newbie - success demands a degree of finesse and knowledge of the game world that most new players simply don't have yet. Getting them to keep their ears open in their spare time would probably work rather better - as long as it isn't their sole task, they won't get overly frustrated.

Quirk

7DV wrote:

QuotePerhaps everyone missed the suggestion that having a cap would encourage those independant clans. Remember, a lot of the clans that are in the game currently, started as independant clans. With limited positions available, you can be assured that players will begin to rise to the occassion, thus birthing those commoner clans.

And, so would responsible hiring practices, while still allowing flexability that a cap would not. If the people hiring for the houses picked the best and most fitting chars this would leave the others still needing work and such and some would be like minded and band together, etc etc.

Besides, with a cap, I tell you right now, if my char wants in he/she is getting in, if the only reason is that "we have enough guards" A simple matter of making it so they do not have enough guards. But if he/she does not get hired because they simply are not what the house needs, then no amount of herd culling is going to get him in.

Quote from: "X-D"Besides, with a cap, I tell you right now, if my char wants in he/she is getting in, if the only reason is that "we have enough guards" A simple matter of making it so they do not have enough guards. But if he/she does not get hired because they simply are not what the house needs, then no amount of herd culling is going to get him in.

Adressing the first matter: So? Isn't that an example I gave, as an additional facat of the new plots hatched because of this?

Secondly, with a cap and leadership, you still would not get hired if you were not made for the House.

If the noble houses just enforced the standards they have in previous times, there would be no overwhelming force of employees.  Characters with shady backgrounds, 'rinthi appearances (even without accents), who have been in jail or who have been kicked out of other houses should never be given 'second chances' in the guise of what should ICly be the most sought after opportunity in the world.

I would like to see NPC superiors taking recruiters to task to explain exactly how such people have managed to slip past their interview and background checks.  There is no need for caps, simple responsible recruiting will alleviate the issue.

Background checks?  *boggle*  It's a city of 500k people.  Finding out who has been where or in jail shouldn't be a given.

Look, when I am a recruiter I have one goal - to provide more warm bodies to the clan so that existing players have others to interact with.  Specifically guards and hunters have someone to go through their routine with because I know exactly how boring it can be to stand in a sparring room and emote slashing at a sparring dummy.  Moreover, the majority of clans won't allow PCs outside the walls except in groups of three or more with a PC leader ranking at least higher than recruit.  The average PC in those clans that I've seen leaves the clan when given an opportunity after a few RL weeks of sparring and goes off to do whatever.  Between PCs quitting the clan and just getting killed, it is very hard to keep an active guard force.

All of this talk about finding the right PCs for the job, and being selective is very noble but completely unfitting for a game with several clans and dozens of divisions total within those clans and an average high of 60 players.  

If the mud was peaking at 100+ all of this talk would have a much better basis.  Until that is a reality, then the only way to keep a clan active as a recruiter is to hire anyone that can fog up a mirror.

7DV wrote:

QuoteSecondly, with a cap and leadership, you still would not get hired if you were not made for the House.

Lets maybe look at it this way, Enforced caps would not cause good leadership or recruiting practices, But good leadership and recruiting practices would lower the number of chars that would get into a house while raising the general quality of the house's guard force while still allowing flexibility. I also do not like the idea of basicly enforcing an equality on all the houses, there is no reason why a well run house Should not be able to employ the 15 best warriors in the city, this also helps with feelings on balance of power and such, something I think should only be controled by pc's, the npc and vnpc pops being the static ones.

This also is something we did in the past, if you remember, Recruited and trained and kept the best while turning the less then the best towards that other house and releasing people after trial phase and pointing them towards that same house, too bad thier recruiters were not very choosy.
And you can't argue against that point 7DV:)

Also, I'm going to say, often the number of people working for a house often looks different from the outside then it really is. I remember a kadian (I think family member) Having a fit and claiming that the house My char was an officer for "employed half the city" Though at the time there was only 7 guards and 2 aides, out of the guards only 4 of them were active, one was semi active and the other two, shrug, I think they just quit playing. Hhhmmm, might have only been one aide, shrug.

I was thinking about pointing out what happens when you have a cap and restrictive recruiting practices, but the people in and running Tor might get annoyed, so I won't.

I submit that as long as you continue to look at the issue of recruiting in an OOC 'fill the clan with warm bodies' manner, you will perpetuate the problem.

There are clans that insist on tedious interview processes, background checks and training periods that result in expulsions for anyone simply 'not good enough', and I'll tell you...they ICly snicker behind their hands when they see the blanket 'if it breathes, we'll recruit it' strategy, especially when their own rejects get taken in.

Perhaps it is more fun to RP in a clan that always has someone available to spar with at any hour of the day or night.  But I think there are clans that are more ICly appropriate for that type of gameplay then the noble houses.  The noble houses are where the -elite- of society serve people that are better then anyone else. The notion of a bunch of ragtag roustabouts wearing the livery of a noble house is ICly ludicrous.  The noble guard forces are not the places to rehabilitate the scum of society.  They are the place where the best of the best enforce strict standards and display dignified conduct (mind you..things go bad and there is room for RP within this concept, I'm talking about recruiting here).  Recruiters have to look at things from an IC perspective rather then OOC.

Want something to keep grubby PCs busy instead of hiring them as recruits?  Hire them to find out about your other potential recruits.  Let them kill each other off to get that -one- open position.  Let three or four men know that they're all up for only one opening and watch the fun begin.  It might take longer to build a monster force to go play in the sands, but what you end up with in the end might just be one of those groups that everyone remembers years later.

CRW wrote:

QuoteAll of this talk about finding the right PCs for the job, and being selective is very noble but completely unfitting for a game with several clans and dozens of divisions total within those clans and an average high of 60 players.

If the mud was peaking at 100+ all of this talk would have a much better basis. Until that is a reality, then the only way to keep a clan active as a recruiter is to hire anyone that can fog up a mirror.

Really? I've done it three times now in two different clans, in the last 4 years.
It is not easy, and even the good chars/players do dumb things and run out alone and die. But, given patience on the part of the recruiter and the other guards, it can be done.

The first and second time I had 0 imm and noble support either, the third time was with a great Imm and a great noble. On the last one, he (or the noble) recruited some people over 30 ic years ago now and he has been gone for better then ten yet  some of the people he recruited are still in house. Sure, in the beginning, when nobody was in the house we recruited heavy, till we got 1 or 2 pc's that seemed like they would make it, then recruitment slowed and even those recruited, over half of them were let go or left on thier own before the trial period was up.

And Far from "hiring anybody that can fog a mirror" the two clans I'm talking about probly were among the top 3 most powerful clans as far as pc's and that was from being selective.

If you think hiring anything that moves is the only way to go, then I think you haven't given any other methods a try or you simply are not very good at it.


(edit)
Ash wrote:

QuoteThere are clans that insist on tedious interview processes, background checks and training periods that result in expulsions for anyone simply 'not good enough', and I'll tell you...they ICly snicker behind their hands when they see the blanket 'if it breathes, we'll recruit it' strategy, especially when their own rejects get taken in

Yes, we did laugh ICly, I still do now and again OOCly.

Quote from: "X-D"I also do not like the idea of basicly enforcing an equality on all the houses, there is no reason why a well run house Should not be able to employ the 15 best warriors in the city, this also helps with feelings on balance of power and such, something I think should only be controled by pc's, the npc and vnpc pops being the static ones.

Again.  Trust me on this.  Population of PCs in a clan DOES NOT show you which house is more powerful than other houses.  

Examples:  
A) If Kadius has 20 PCs in it, and Kurac has 5, Kurac is STILL MORE POWERFUL in regards to ARMY STRENGTH.
B) If Tenneshi has 4 PCs in it, and Uaptal has 40, Tenneshi is STILL MORE POWERFUL.
C) If Oash has 0 PCs in it, and Fale has 10, Oash is STILL MORE POWERFUL.

Quote from: "X-D"Also, I'm going to say, often the number of people working for a house often looks different from the outside then it really is. I remember a kadian (I think family member) Having a fit and claiming that the house My char was an officer for "employed half the city" Though at the time there was only 7 guards and 2 aides, out of the guards only 4 of them were active, one was semi active and the other two, shrug, I think they just quit playing. Hhhmmm, might have only been one aide, shrug.

It truely does.  However, remember;  There are over 100 people in _each_ of the coded clans, right now.  Some of them aren't visible at all.  The world is more than just the PCs.

QuoteAgain. Trust me on this. Population of PCs in a clan DOES NOT show you which house is more powerful than other houses.

Yes yes, I well know that, I don't truly agree with the way it is often handled, nor do I like the fact that it makes things static unless the staff agrees to a change. Though this is the wrong thread to get into that topic, I will say this, The number of npc's should be reflected from the number of pc's to a point, specialy when you get into HRPT's.

Also Mansa

QuoteI think should only be controled by pc's, the npc and vnpc pops being the static ones.

Notice the words, At no time did I say this is the way it -is- rather the way I think it -should- be. That PC's -should- have a larger affect on the happenings of the world and balance of power, -specialy- in larger or more powerful clans.



X-D is among the number of people that get annoyed when people answer without reading completly.