Armageddon General Discussion Board

So this poll is regarding towards some replies I had read in the Armageddon Confessional. I believe that our player base is at an all time low compared to even just two or three years back, and I think we need to get more players to join up. The only question is how we do this, and I want the Arm community's opinion on how we can get more to join.

Quote from: deathkamon on June 15, 2016, 02:22:05 PM
So this poll is regarding towards some replies I had read in the Armageddon Confessional. I believe that our player base is at an all time low compared to even just two or three years back, and I think we need to get more players to join up. The only question is how we do this, and I want the Arm community's opinion on how we can get more to join.

There is a strong possibility you are going to see a bump pretty quick actually. It usually happens somewhere around this time as schools have just let out for the summer.

First, I'm no wiley veteran, but I'm pretty sure the player numbers have been worse just in my time here.  

As for bringing in more players?  Get newbie friendly leaders in the newbie friendly clans and give them support to do things.  80% of the new players will not be at a level of skill or comfort to be much more than window dressing to an hRPT.  If there is frequent activity, hunts/contracts/explorations/patrols that keep the new players doing things long enough for them to learn the syntax and get comfortable with the concept of an RPI, then your numbers might grow.

Appealing to an attempt to draw back older players is great for a short influx of players (ala the Riots) but the new players that stick around are more likely to boost your full-time play numbers without constant staff intervention.  

MUDs in general are on the decline. I think Armageddon fills a niche that nothing really else does and has plenty of life left, but the only way to get new people is to advertise that it exists and then retain players who actually sign up. I think two things that can help are:

1. The staff should make a player recruitment/retention position. I asked them about it a few months ago (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,51064.0.html) and Adhira said they weren't looking at implementing it. I hope that position changes. I think we as players need someone on staff whose primary role is to find ways to attract and retain more players. I know there are people who are interested in such a role. It's up to the current staff to allow it though.

2. I also think we need to be better about new player intake and mentorship. An OOC channel accessible by new players (maybe their first 2 or 3 PCs) and helpers could work.

I had been meaning to write up a post on 'What Worked With Tuluk', but never did since I thought it might spiral out of control unless put right, but -- and this coming from someone who didn't start as a newbie in Tuluk...

Tuluk and its surrounding flora and fauna seems to have been friendly to newbies who wanted to do the 'independent/see the world' route.   Allanak and its surrounding flora and fauna is not.

I'm not sure if there's a solution or even if this is correct.  Just tossing it out there.

Quote from: nauta on June 15, 2016, 02:37:30 PM
I had been meaning to write up a post on 'What Worked With Tuluk', but never did since I thought it might spiral out of control unless put right, but -- and this coming from someone who didn't start as a newbie in Tuluk...

Tuluk and its surrounding flora and fauna seems to have been friendly to newbies who wanted to do the 'independent/see the world' route.   Allanak and its surrounding flora and fauna is not.

I'm not sure if there's a solution or even if this is correct.  Just tossing it out there.

It's certainly been my experience with the Northlands. Personally I thought it was a problem for Tuluk as it allowed characters to radiate out into the grasslands as indie hunters with no real connection to the City or their fellow citizens. Allanak's wilderness is/was dangerous enough that banding together before going out (Typically by joining a clan) was the smart move.

You are #2 on Mud Connector's top ten list.

If that's not drawing in new players, then there isn't much else that will.

I don't think 'Make things easier' is the way to go.  Skill progression as a whole is...kind of beyond the <24 hour character for the first time and something you get the grasp of down the line.  What you need is the hook.

My hook was a templar getting attacked in front of me by a player, the templar getting backstabbed, and my character backstabbing the backstabber.  Then I went out and died to a scrab.  My demand to roll up a new character was hard after that(it should be noted that the reason -why- was because that templar suddenly thanked me, said I would be involved in some things as a result of my loyalty, and then I went and died right when things were looking awesome), and I was hooked by my next character that served in a noble house and got involved in creation of the Borsail Wyvern's unit.  I had a mentor named 'Kiko' who was a young kid, but as a player, he knew a lot more than me and told me how things worked.

I was too noob, and got removed from my leadership position, but I was so noob that I didn't really realize I'd lost anything.


Anyway.  Point is...the hook isn't mechanics.  Arm has great mechanics, but if we're trying to hook people with mechanics, I think we're barking up the wrong tree.  Arm is singular in its roleplay experience and how dynamic relationships between entities in the world are.  What people -need- is for players and the game alike to provide excitement on a consistent basis.

If we could somehow maintain an HRPT like the last one, all the time...and not have all the players banded together in it?  I'm betting people would stick around more.

Quote from: nauta on June 15, 2016, 02:37:30 PM
I had been meaning to write up a post on 'What Worked With Tuluk', but never did since I thought it might spiral out of control unless put right, but -- and this coming from someone who didn't start as a newbie in Tuluk...

Tuluk and its surrounding flora and fauna seems to have been friendly to newbies who wanted to do the 'independent/see the world' route.   Allanak and its surrounding flora and fauna is not.

I'm not sure if there's a solution or even if this is correct.  Just tossing it out there.

My first character was in Tuluk, I immediately stumbled across others willing to help me get started and figure out the game, no clans required. Others also showed me the surrounding area, and I managed to survive pretty much because the area was so rich in resources. Comparatively, I think the first three or four characters I made in the south all died within the first few hours after they were created. I didn't make it past a day played in the south until one of my characters joined the Byn and was shown how to survive.

Even the help files for Tuluk made it apparent it was the easier place to survive, which is why I ultimately chose it for my first character. I think if I had chose Nak, I likely wouldn't still be playing.

HRPT - I have long been a fan of the old staff driven HRPTs.  Some of the plots in the past have been incredible, and with the talent we have on staff right now, I think they could make some amazing things happen.

Excitement Injection - We need a Steve Buscemi Meteor that's actually a egg that cracks open and releases a thousand evil psionically capable brainsnakes.   Kidding!  I like the level of excitement in game, I've been tremendously entertained by the level of roleplaying that's going on and with the increase in interest involving the gladiator events in Allanak.  If anything, I wish those could increase.  I remember the feeling of my first Arena as a newbie every single fucking time a character of mine walks in to that place.  If you need an initial hook to get someone really going on the game, you could do a lot worse than more Arena matches.

What would help draw new players is really pretty simple, from an Advertising perspective... and it's just a simple thing a lot of us can do, since we do it anyway.

Go to Cons and talk to people.  Wear your Armageddon shirt.  Don't have an Armageddon shirt?  Do Cosplay as a d-elf if you look like Path and Dig, or do cosplay as a Kadian merchant if you look like me.  Go as a Kuraci spicehead, or a templar, or a whor... well, okay, that might have ramifications.  But you get the idea.  Then... when people come up and ask you, tell them a quick bit about the game and offer them a business card with the game info on it.  Leave business cards out on tables, fold them into little eye-catching shapes if you want.  A lot of players here go to Cons at one time or another.  Put a bit of extra umph into it, and we could get a few new players at least.

I'd also like to say that I've been really impressed with the quality of new players we've been attracting.  There are some fan-fucking-tastic newbies in game right now, and it is terrific to see.  Kudos to you, chalton-boot wearers of the Known.  Kudos.

I think we could do some community outreach things, I'm sure there's plenty of nerds out there that would be interested in Armageddon just don't know it exists. Dropping into an RPG discussion forum and maybe plugging a little blurb about Armageddon can always add a few playersa. =P

Relevant post on reddit:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MUD/comments/31bezx/what_would_it_take_for_muds_to_become_popular/

Also, didn't the Big Bang Theory mention mudding around 2013?  So the real answer is: we need a popular television series to discuss MUDs.

I only see 4 character bios on the website out of >50 characters on my account, and they go: 2016, 2006, 2006, 2002.

I was on yesterday evening and saw upwards of 50 people online.   :o That's huge!  Y'all are spoiled.  ;)

The playerbase on Godwars 2 is much smaller, even counting the mults.

...holy shit, gaz, I haven't seen you in ages.  Welcome back?

The poll does not allow for multiple responses, and I think we need more excitement, HRPT, and Advertisement.

As I mentioned in another post, not sure what exactly the staffs medium to long term vision for the game is, outside of the facet that they are cleaning things up and redoing guilds and sugguilds (Maybe races next?).

I think that if staff could post some teasers, on what is coming in the next three months or six months, put them on the website or at least links to them, it would help.  On helper chat we can see how many people enter the website, and there are really quite a few! We need something ongoing, new and exciting that they can quickly look at, to get them interested enough to create a PC. So combining advertising with ongoing exciting events, on our own site as well as on others who would be willing to help.

I think the idea of conventions is also excellent, for those that go to such events.

Finally for me,  I think the whole learning curve puts new players off. We have come a long way with this one.  I think that if we could have an expanded new player area which could have more tutorials (although long tutorials are a pain on any MUD) but also the option for helpers or staff to log into the area with an avatar and actually give players help that way, with syntax, emoting etc.

You could have all kinds of FUN with that, and another helper could come in and the two helpers could fight to the death..or some such thing.  Just an idea.

The initial player experience is worth taking a look into, I tried to start playing the game again last week. Taking another stab at it today.

As a new character, I have three choices:

1. Join a guild: Nothing wrong with Guilds, except they bore me, and someone new might have a hard time finding the leader in order to get the interview.In my case it often leads me to store and go play something else for a couple months. Just not my thing.
2. Hunt: Hunting is fun and great, a strong enough character can take down a scrab if they are lucky. Too bad it is a poor way to make money, until you get better. And even then its only good if you or someone you know has a crafting skill.
3. Forage: Novice forage made me sleepy, then idle while I went to take a nap, when I woke up, I logged off and now a week has passed I'm trying to force myself to attempt it again. THough instead of playing and foraging right now, I find myself posting though.  :-\

It might be worth considering upping starting foraging skill and perhaps implementing an old player suggestion of having a shop that buys unless shit and bits you find on the ground. Like bones, chalton skins, gith crap, 3-6 sid each. It still makes these things worth finding a player to sell to but gives you a reason to gather or hunt at least even if you don't.  

I think it would be cool to see what each immortal was up to. Sort of a "thing's we're working on" update. When I take a look at a early access game on steam and I don't see recent updates or evidence of dev attention I avoid it. Maybe showing what you guys were working on as well as the recent updates that's already on the home page would show new players that we have active staff. This definitely adds some appeal to people that see our front page and honestly, I think a lot of us players are also always curious to see what you guys are working on so we can get just as excited about it.

Just something like:

CURRENT PROJECTS!
Xalle: PC poop script
Rathustra: Masturbation code
Adhira: Killing elves
Enthemu: Elven two-handed masturbation code
Akariel: Re-opening Tuluk
Brokkr: making 'l <target>'s boobs' codedly possible.
Jave: Working on making mudsex a coded skill.
Senga: Teaching Jave about sex so he better understands the code he's implimenting
Renenutet: Watching Jave and Senga.
Ath: making 'bastion' a playable race in armageddon. No configuration: tank
Nergal: Animating Twitchy to get newbs rekt

Edit: I knew I'd forget people. lol. Ath/nergal anyone else?

You forgot Ath. Don't forget Ath!

More Flame Decals on the site.

I feel like some bigger stuff like an hrpt would help. A lot of new players get turned off by the fact that plots and such are 'there but you just don't know about them'. I feel like a boon to the game would be if there was something overarching, that anyone could take part in even if only in a small capacity. Like assassinations are cool but the only people who get involved are the target, the assassin, and the person who hired.

But like, war prep, world-wide bounty hunts, dangerous threats near the city... The extent of a newbs involvement may be to help a Templar carry supplies to a wagon but it opens the door for more to happen and more importantly, SHOWS the been that things are happening, rather than just promising they are with no evidence.

Quote from: QuillDipper on June 15, 2016, 10:40:55 PM
More Flame Decals on the site.

I feel like some bigger stuff like an hrpt would help. A lot of new players get turned off by the fact that plots and such are 'there but you just don't know about them'. I feel like a boon to the game would be if there was something overarching, that anyone could take part in even if only in a small capacity. Like assassinations are cool but the only people who get involved are the target, the assassin, and the person who hired.

But like, war prep, world-wide bounty hunts, dangerous threats near the city... The extent of a newbs involvement may be to help a Templar carry supplies to a wagon but it opens the door for more to happen and more importantly, SHOWS the been that things are happening, rather than just promising they are with no evidence.

Even when not world-changing hRPTs, the idea that there is "something happening" is a big draw. When I first started, the Copper War was happening, and I was tasked with my first PC to cut logs in Halfling territory, selling to the Templars, so they could fashion spike pits.

I don't think that ever happened, but shit was that exciting.

If I were y'all of youz I would try and focus on what players can do because stating that the game really needs more HRPTs to feel alive and dynamic is like.. Duh, yeah. Everyone knows that. But you can't force Staff to throw HRPTs if they aren't feeling like it and if they felt like it surely they know that HRPTS are ever popular with the playerbase.

From what I read around the GDB and elsewhere it kinda feels like a big majority of you are happy doing mostly nothing and going with tiny plots involving yourself and a couple of your friends at best, maybe that's part of the problem. Are you boring? Is there mostly boring people left? What's going on? If there's a few exciting and fun characters left around, are you trying to help them out to be even more exciting and fun or are you mostly just gossiping about them on AIM and in game, tsk'ing and being offended because they are popular and you're just sitting at the Gaj doing shit nothing?

Best solution - Stop being boring. Yeah, you probably are, c'mon, admit it! *lowers voice* You know I'm talking about you but I still have faith in you, just stop being so boring and go do something exciting with your character, just once, try it, it won't hurt, babeh.

Malifaxis is a pretty good role-player and always have tons of interesting stuff going on around his characters - You should all gather around him like he's your divine light out of the darkness and help him achieve whatever it is he's probably up to. Don't be that pooper character who's just hanging at the Gaj bitching that his/her character is getting all the ladies/gold/attention and that life isn't fair because you aren't. Emulate the greats.

I would suggest finding some advertising on Twitch or one of the other popular game streaming sites. Most of these people are obviously familiar with games, have probably never seen a MUD before, and can speak English (which is fairly necessary in Arm). Even if we get 1% on some of the larger chsnnels that could be as much as hundreds of new players.

As I see it, it's simply a matter of creating a captivating advertisement.

Additionally, I think increasing the player-baseis key to improving the game. Remember we were all new once (more players = more staff = more game + plots). I am confident by this point all of you are experts at policing your own and dealing with scriptkiddies and just plain dbags, so that shouldn't be a concern.

Quote from: Malken on June 15, 2016, 11:52:36 PM
Best solution - Stop being boring.

this

Quote from: Malken on June 15, 2016, 11:52:36 PM
Malifaxis is a pretty good role-player and always have tons of interesting stuff going on around his characters

Do you have specific examples? Perhaps for his older characters?

No, don't crowd around him.








He needs enemies, too.

I want to emphasize the fact that I believe scant few individuals know what a MUD is and then the ones who find out are scared off in a matter of hours with syntax. There's a few things you can do to soften the code blow, but I sincerely think the only way to improve playerbase is with heavy-handed advertising. It's a numbers game and even if you make it very comfortable, there's going to be plenty who drop out.

If we're going to toss it against the wall and see which stick, we might as well make a pretty damn big pot.

The game needs some depth to retain players.

The average PC:

1) Get grounded as a character.
2) Join a clan / Make some pals.
3) Make money / grind skills.
4) Get an apartment / hideout.
5) Establish a routine.

Annnnd... you're done. That's the Armageddon experience right now. Rinse and repeat.

The plots are without substance or impact, the world never changes and no single character has any meaning or merit beyond their own personal sphere of influence. Even since I started, there has been more and more removed from the game and replaced with nothing. Areas, caves, landmarks, guilds, spells, skills, clans, the list goes on. Gone.

Slap four NPC rental compounds in Allanak -- 5,000 coins a cycle (roughly 13,000 coins per 300 days), 5 varied rooms with a maximum of 10 PCs on the list.

That's it, plunk it down, hand players the keys and say go nuts. See what happens.

Brothels, grebber groups, cults, cartels of exiled city elves, witch covens, small time mercenaries, raiders and associated riffraff, all of them subject to being taxed, strong-armed or otherwise exploited by Templars and anyone else who thinks they have the clout to pull it off. Zero staff maintenance required, zero need for a coded clan because it's all tied together in a shared lease managed by a scripted NPC. You could even have the rental NPC double as the compound door guard to get the most bang for your NPC buck.

Disallow major clans from renting them out or getting on the lease -- no Guild, no Dust Runners, No Templarate, no AoD, no GMH and no Noble House clans allowed.

It'll give all those people who want to build something an opportunity to do so from the ground up, with nothing more required than enough people to keep up the rent. When the group dissolves to the point they can't afford it, it goes back up for rent like any other apartment for the next group to try their luck at being the Next Big Thing. If they make it, odds are good they're primed to make a move on the MMH system that is, as it stands, so daunting that next to no one has made a serious attempt.

Call it an experiment. Give players some no-hooks agency and see what they do with it, see what kind of interest in generates.

I'm sure there are a thousand more ideas floating around that could be workshopped, refined and pushed into the game in a weekend if someone would just take their foot off the brake.

Whatever the case, a lot of us are tired of gnawing on the same barren, shrinking bone we've had for years and years and years. The game needs something new and fresh to rekindle interest in both current and departed players, something that isn't locked behind karma. Something that'll build energy that can be directed into a proper newbie drive and give said newbies something to sink their teeth into when they get here.

Really, if we can't reignite interest in people who already love / loved the game, I doubt a newbie drive is going to accomplish much.

No laser light shows.

I voted "other."  If I recall back from when Talia was crunching numbers, we get most of our referrals from TMC followed shortly by TMS.

As for keeping them once we have them, I think continuing to amp up the storytelling aspects of the game is the best.  Plots that draw characters in.  Other people making interesting characters to play around.  Feeling like things are happening and you can affect the outcome (otherwise, why not play a console RPG?).  That kind of thing.

Quote from: Vwest on June 16, 2016, 02:22:50 AM
The game needs some depth to retain players.

The average PC:

1) Get grounded as a character.
2) Join a clan / Make some pals.
3) Make money / grind skills.
4) Get an apartment / hideout.
5) Establish a routine.

Annnnd... you're done. That's the Armageddon experience right now. Rinse and repeat.

If you sincerely feel this is the reason for lack of interest, then I suggest you stop playing the average PC.

For me, steps 1-5 is the preparation for the rest of my character's play. For me, the fun starts at 6: get involved in stuff, and if you can't find stuff to get involved in, create some stuff for others to involve themselves in, with you (or on your behalf).

If you don't have a 6) - then you're missing out on the whole point of Armageddon.

The two main demotivating factors for me have always been the 1 character limit and the skill gain timer. Clearly my interest in the other facets of the game outweighs my distaste for those two facets, but for a new player who hasn't seen anything else in the game ... that might be a factor.

Quote from: Lizzie on June 16, 2016, 11:22:03 AM
If you don't have a 6) - then you're missing out on the whole point of Armageddon.

The problem is when Step 6 is not appealing to me. I don't want to get involved in Noble Bitch Fights or Magick plots or hunting rocks to build Yet Another Mastercraft. Most "stuff" is, as Vwest said, without substance or impact. They're just another day in the life.

It's not simply a matter of "creating" stuff either. Some things are just not readily doable.

it's not enough to draw new players to us, we have to keep them. it's not about piling up more stuff on staff's shoulders. it's about everyone staff, and players finding creative ways to breath life, and let others breath life into the world.

Someone mentioned Mal (thanks his heads probably already swollen enough) and I can say that I enjoy playing with him. not because I know him, but because he makes things interesting. As do other players, thats what we need more of, not idly sitting in taverns, but intensively rp'n.

I still say we Twitch stream gladiator fights in the Arena.

With a few staff/players speaking out everything thats happening like announcers.

We'll get like 12 followers guise.

The wall of text that would be streamed would be terrible and hard to follow.
I love it

If this isn't already the case (and if this is possible), I wonder if we shouldn't make Allanak a compulsory first option for new players -- or at the very least some sort of big warning when you go about pointing:

Quote
WARNING: Tuluk is closed to players at the moment.  We highly recommend that your first character start in Allanak, the main centre for players.

With Tuluk closed, and absent some knowledge of what's what in the northlands/how the game works, a new player might get the impression that the game is quite empty.  (I know there's action in the northlands, it just requires a kind of patience and some knowledge of where PCs congregate to discover that action.)  Just an idle thought.

Whenever anyone uses the word "compulsory" in relation to my fun-happy-game time, my sphincter slams shut like a submarine hatch, a klaxon horn sounds, and Russian sailors start yelling.

Quote from: Miradus on July 01, 2016, 10:08:04 AMWhenever anyone uses the word "compulsory" in relation to my fun-happy-game time, my sphincter slams shut like a submarine hatch, a klaxon horn sounds, and Russian sailors start yelling.

Well, I have my new signature.

I spend alot of time on reddit.  I sometimes head over to reddit.com/r/mud where MUDers gather to talk about their games.  occasionally Arm gets mentioned.  But you see other games mentioned and discussed much more frequently.  you will also commonly see new MUDers asking for advice on which games to play, etc.  I always try to promote Arm when somebody there is looking for a new MUD.  I think we should try and have more of a presence on the /r/mud subreddit.  Not to take anything away from GDB, of course, GDB is awesome, but its for people who already play this game.  I think reddit would be a great place to lure new players.

maybe whenever an HRPT goes down, somebody could do a writeup and leave it as a thread there.  Maybe on /r/indiegaming too.  I'm just spitballing here, but I know tons of people check those subreddits.

That's probably the best suggestion.

You don't want to change the game to attract new players. Madness lies down that road. You won't know if you're attracting the right kind of player for a year or more and you're in trouble if you've attracted the wrong ones because they WILL drive off the right ones.

So if there's anything even remotely resembling a general consensus as to what we enjoy about Arm, start putting together some info for public dissemination and letting people like Booger sprinkle that birdseed out into the world.

For a short term fix, make the game better for people who only want to play a few hours a week. I don't know how to do this, but it would be nice to be able to join the Byn or Guild or whatever and only show up for a couple hour session -- like a contract -- and yet not feel like a waste of water.

But really, maybe y'all just have to accept that while the staff has gone an epic distance at keeping the game breathing, "Alas, all good things must come to an end." The population is going to decline, and eventually the game will be so thinly populated that it's not really Armageddon MUD as we knew it. I haven't logged on in a while myself -- it might already be at that point.

If it feels like that's the trend (spoiler: it is) go out with a bang. Massive events, let people play their lame nilazi mages, open up the docs for everyone to read. Make the end of the world a celebration of murder and betrayal and yuge walls getting knocked down, rather than a sputtering whimper.

Quote from: Clavis on June 21, 2016, 10:30:10 PM
Someone mentioned Mal (thanks his heads probably already swollen enough) and I can say that I enjoy playing with him. not because I know him, but because he makes things interesting. As do other players, thats what we need more of, not idly sitting in taverns, but intensively rp'n.

I haven't logged on, so I don't know really what's happening in game at the moment, but the best rp motivators in the past had natural hooks for players. A social conflict with sides and high stakes.

As cheesy as the last end of the world plot was, there were plenty of hooks for people to get involved -- if they were magickers. I think the new templar system was engineered to try to organically create these conflicts, as templars competed with each other for brownie points. If that's not working, dial it up to 11.

Vwest described something similar to the the rut I found myself in in my 'middle term' as a player.  Before, and after this term, my PCs did not at all follow this kind of routine.  They would strut out of the inn and dive head first into something crazy and fun.  In retrospect and analysis of this, I find that rut was caused for two reasons.

First:  was me.  My fault, my play style was sticking me.  If you find yourself in this sort of a pattern, try laying the blame squarely at your own feet.

Second:  Staff I think, though this is through the microcosm of a player's perspective, amped things up.

So take a look around, the stuff you're talking about is there.  Crap is happening *everywhere*, driven by players, driven by staff, driven by both.  Again, in my own perception, a player can sniff out a huge portion of this goings on easily.

Want to retain a player that's new to the game?  Grab them by the boots and drag them into this fun stuff happening everywhere, or at least point the way.  Inclusion was my great hook, and what kept me on my second attempt at the game.

Quote from: 650Booger on July 01, 2016, 10:37:57 AM
I spend alot of time on reddit.  I sometimes head over to reddit.com/r/mud where MUDers gather to talk about their games.  occasionally Arm gets mentioned.  But you see other games mentioned and discussed much more frequently.  you will also commonly see new MUDers asking for advice on which games to play, etc.  I always try to promote Arm when somebody there is looking for a new MUD.  I think we should try and have more of a presence on the /r/mud subreddit.  Not to take anything away from GDB, of course, GDB is awesome, but its for people who already play this game.  I think reddit would be a great place to lure new players.

maybe whenever an HRPT goes down, somebody could do a writeup and leave it as a thread there.  Maybe on /r/indiegaming too.  I'm just spitballing here, but I know tons of people check those subreddits.

I agree that this would help a lot, though the couple threads I've seen where it's mentioned there is rampant criticism and sniveling from Barta (that's the guy, right?) copycats who just talk about how Nyr is evil and junk. I remember a thread distinctly in which RGS posted and defended Arm. I mean this could probably work if we linked a thread or subreddit for Arm like the voting sites. Shrug. I agree though, reddit's a good choice.

It's best not to get in slapfights on other forums. If anything that will turn more people away.

The best thing to do is to share some of the stories that are made here and invite people over.

Quote from: Yam on July 02, 2016, 03:16:51 PM
The best thing to do is to share some of the stories that are made here and invite people over.

I was just thinking that.  The single most effective tool at getting me to come back to the game when I thought we had broken up forever ...  was listening.  I would hear someone's cool story, and then share some of my own.  I think the stories we create here are genuinely interesting, for the most part.  Instead of advertising, we should share those stories on the world wide webs.  Not in some forced, look at my purple prose guys kinda deal, but a little back and forth with each other that's like a conversation.  All it takes is two to start.

I agree that we should focus on keeping the players we have, or focus on the players we've lost.

There was a long time hater of Armageddon who's left like ten years ago and still complains on just how "bad" it is. Is there anything we can do to change that guy's opinion?

Nope. 

Not going there.

Find him IRL, break legs.

Treat people who leave and have issues with the game with respect. Be kind and generous, not flippant and condescending. Use criticism as a way to improve, don't take things personally.

Furthermore if someone has an axe to grind, let them vent. If you're going to respond don't try to contradict or argue with them. Offer them a family role. Chat with them about fun character concepts. Share stories, and encourage them to talk about what they found fun about the game. If they continue being negative don't respond at all.

I, obviously, need to work on a lot of these things myself.

Quote from: deathkamon on July 03, 2016, 02:09:46 AM
There was a long time hater of Armageddon who's left like ten years ago and still complains on just how "bad" it is. Is there anything we can do to change that guy's opinion?

"Just think of any negativity that comes at you as a raindrop falling into the ocean of your bliss."  --  Maharishi Mehesh Yogi

I've also been checking out the polls and it seems like most people either wanna do an HRPT or do things in general to put some excitement in Arm. If there were some mudders who used to play Arm but now playing other muds, then they should be our core focus on who we should try to bring back.

I stopped playing for a while and simply came back because I missed being able to play.
Not sure why

I don't want to let this one be page-rolled.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 03, 2016, 02:12:12 PM
Treat people who leave and have issues with the game with respect. Be kind and generous, not flippant and condescending. Use criticism as a way to improve, don't take things personally.

Furthermore if someone has an axe to grind, let them vent. If you're going to respond don't try to contradict or argue with them. Offer them a family role. Chat with them about fun character concepts. Share stories, and encourage them to talk about what they found fun about the game. If they continue being negative don't respond at all.

I, obviously, need to work on a lot of these things myself.

Just ignore angry ex-players. Potentially new players aren't children. They know that some people have an axe to grind.

When I was considering playing Arm I saw a SHITLOAD of bad reviews. And then I tried it anyway and liked the game some. Then I read this forum and thought, "What a bunch of asshats" (because it's human nature to fixate on a few asshats in a large crowd instead of the crowd as a whole).

But that bc1w person in helper chat was nice to me and answered my questions so I kept on fiddling around in the interface and really started liking the game.

Post about the features. Post some of the stories. Leave it at that. Nothing else needs to be gone into.

You are under no obligation to cater to people who boycott or no longer use your product. However, it would be absolutely foolish to not have someone hear their concerns and determine if there is a change necessary that you havn't thought of.

Stop treating people who don't play the game like their the anti-Christ. Like RGS said, everyone should be treated with respect. And if they want to vent, let them vent. Forcing them to go other places to vent is a poor choice, because people bond over mutual dislikes FAR faster than they do over mutual likes. If you want people to continue buying your product, make the best version of it. Sometimes that includes finding the Small Data that you never thought of.

I'd be glad to have players who have left back.  I'd enjoy it a great deal.  There are some that are still active around and about the game, but not in the game, that are from back when I started playing.  I used to chat with them back in the IRC room.

The only problem I have is when one of them (not one in particular, but any one; this is to say that we have some of them here, as well), one of many players, insist that the change must come about to their way or they won't play.  I can't really work with that.  I can't really deal with that.  That's pretty much telling me that they won't come back to play and discuss things as a player, they'll only throw these stones from afar and insist that any other way is a poor way of having the game.  But I know there's still fun for me in the game.  A lot of it.  I know I get to do a lot of things that are cool to -me-, but it may not be to them.  So if they insist that the game in its current state is unplayable, that's...well, again, I can't really work around that.

As is, I admit I do have problems with the dissemination of some information (not skill trees and such, because who cares?  But when people rant about current plots and PC's and start a rumor/gossip mill that is largely filled with untrue conjecture that those who are not exposed take as their only exposure to said region of the game/player/character/plot...it exemplifies the meaning of why we don't have pure, unmoderated forum discussion, to me.

I'd love to have more of the old veterans back.  I'd love to have new players.  But we do have a very big problem with finding a 'one size fits all' balance for the game, and for what we get out of it, I just have to be okay with that idea that some of them won't come back, some won't leave, and some will continue to hold a line in the sand about their position that is, in essence, a line that doesn't need to be there.

Quote from: Armaddict on July 03, 2016, 11:52:23 PM
I'd be glad to have players who have left back.  I'd enjoy it a great deal.  There are some that are still active around and about the game, but not in the game, that are from back when I started playing.  I used to chat with them back in the IRC room.

The only problem I have is when one of them (not one in particular, but any one; this is to say that we have some of them here, as well), one of many players, insist that the change must come about to their way or they won't play.  I can't really work with that.  I can't really deal with that.  That's pretty much telling me that they won't come back to play and discuss things as a player, they'll only throw these stones from afar and insist that any other way is a poor way of having the game.  But I know there's still fun for me in the game.  A lot of it.  I know I get to do a lot of things that are cool to -me-, but it may not be to them.  So if they insist that the game in its current state is unplayable, that's...well, again, I can't really work around that.

As is, I admit I do have problems with the dissemination of some information (not skill trees and such, because who cares?  But when people rant about current plots and PC's and start a rumor/gossip mill that is largely filled with untrue conjecture that those who are not exposed take as their only exposure to said region of the game/player/character/plot...it exemplifies the meaning of why we don't have pure, unmoderated forum discussion, to me.

I'd love to have more of the old veterans back.  I'd love to have new players.  But we do have a very big problem with finding a 'one size fits all' balance for the game, and for what we get out of it, I just have to be okay with that idea that some of them won't come back, some won't leave, and some will continue to hold a line in the sand about their position that is, in essence, a line that doesn't need to be there.

Yeah, I would almost challenge the old players you describe (who i've had interactions with as well) to just play the game. I imagine they'll have a swell time. I know I do!

Quote from: Reiloth on July 04, 2016, 01:31:37 AM

Quote from: Armaddict on July 03, 2016, 11:52:23 PM
I'd be glad to have players who have left back.  I'd enjoy it a great deal.  There are some that are still active around and about the game, but not in the game, that are from back when I started playing.  I used to chat with them back in the IRC room.

The only problem I have is when one of them (not one in particular, but any one; this is to say that we have some of them here, as well), one of many players, insist that the change must come about to their way or they won't play.  I can't really work with that.  I can't really deal with that.  That's pretty much telling me that they won't come back to play and discuss things as a player, they'll only throw these stones from afar and insist that any other way is a poor way of having the game.  But I know there's still fun for me in the game.  A lot of it.  I know I get to do a lot of things that are cool to -me-, but it may not be to them.  So if they insist that the game in its current state is unplayable, that's...well, again, I can't really work around that.

As is, I admit I do have problems with the dissemination of some information (not skill trees and such, because who cares?  But when people rant about current plots and PC's and start a rumor/gossip mill that is largely filled with untrue conjecture that those who are not exposed take as their only exposure to said region of the game/player/character/plot...it exemplifies the meaning of why we don't have pure, unmoderated forum discussion, to me.

I'd love to have more of the old veterans back.  I'd love to have new players.  But we do have a very big problem with finding a 'one size fits all' balance for the game, and for what we get out of it, I just have to be okay with that idea that some of them won't come back, some won't leave, and some will continue to hold a line in the sand about their position that is, in essence, a line that doesn't need to be there.

Yeah, I would almost challenge the old players you describe (who i've had interactions with as well) to just play the game. I imagine they'll have a swell time. I know I do!

Some are banned. Some just don't want to. Some have moved on.

I don't like to discredit anyones experience or feelings but some may have already tried coming back and found their experiences repetitive or their roleplay stale, not their own but others/people around them, to not be what they want.

Voting does wonders. I always notice a huge influx of applications when we are top 3 on TMS. So, let's vote. ;)

I would like to see reviews pushed on other sites and maybe player stories shared. I wrote a story years and years ago about a guy saddling up for a ride south from Tuluk and getting harassed by elves and eventually, afoot and alone, dying of thirst. I put it up on NationStates and TMS, I think, and people seemed to respond positively. I got a few pm's and shared the Arm link with them but I don't know if they made any effort toward it. Still, something to think about.

I -REALLY- like the idea of making a push at our pals from ten years ago that lost interest for whatever reason and maybe figuring out a way to tailor an HRPT to newer characters and see if we can't spark some interest in getting them to return.

Social Media.. Especially Facebook ads. (focused on people with MUD, Dark Sun, etc. in their interest list.) They really work.

Quote from: Gaare on July 05, 2016, 04:50:04 AM
Social Media.. Especially Facebook ads. (focused on people with MUD, Dark Sun, etc. in their interest list.) They really work.

Facebook ads cost money AND when I was running a business and used them, they yielded not one single sale. I know that's kind of anecdotal, but it's my experience that I'm sharing.

Facebook ads tend to be more of a bother and a scroll-fest than anything, but the idea of marketing isn't a bad one. MUDs are dying, and the only methods we appear to have are word of mouth (which, with less and less players, is less and less effective) and two MUD sites that have had the same users for decades.

There's gotta be another way to do marketing, and I'm sure there's someone who would be willing to volunteer knowledge of AdWords or whatever is used now.

Quote from: Riev on July 05, 2016, 03:06:22 PM
Facebook ads tend to be more of a bother and a scroll-fest than anything, but the idea of marketing isn't a bad one. MUDs are dying, and the only methods we appear to have are word of mouth (which, with less and less players, is less and less effective) and two MUD sites that have had the same users for decades.

There's gotta be another way to do marketing, and I'm sure there's someone who would be willing to volunteer knowledge of AdWords or whatever is used now.

My thoughts exactly!

Quote from: Miradus on July 05, 2016, 11:39:58 AM

Quote from: Gaare on July 05, 2016, 04:50:04 AM
Social Media.. Especially Facebook ads. (focused on people with MUD, Dark Sun, etc. in their interest list.) They really work.

Facebook ads cost money AND when I was running a business and used them, they yielded not one single sale. I know that's kind of anecdotal, but it's my experience that I'm sharing.

I "work" (quasi-volunteer, I get paid for helping at the events themselves) with social media for fairs and festivals around the state. Our first year we held the first-ever state-wide food truck festival, at the local fairgrounds. The print-ads were minimal - a 1" ad in each of three weekly local papers, and a bit of free public relations from the local TV station and their anchor's blog. The rest of the PR took place online - Facebook, specifically. We had our own "company" facebook page, which created an "event" facebook page. We targeted a broad audience - incrementing every week until the final week before the event. We got 13k "is going" hits, and around 250k "clicked the link to see the event page" hits.

We were expecting 13k over the course of the weekend, which is a lot of people for this type of event. All through what is known as "digital word of mouth" advertising. You invite your friends list, ask them to invite their friends list, and so on and so forth. Very little cost involved in this, I believe it was $10 for a month to send it out to 100,000 people total.

Traffic to the event shut down the highway and choked traffic for a mile in each direction on the town's main road, and and our trucks ran out of food within the first half of the first day. We had approximately 13k on one DAY. Most of these people found out about it through Facebook (where readers could click through to a discount ticket page). The parking lot was overflowed in the first two hours of the first day, the police had to be called to divert traffic, the fire department had to be called to "cull the herd" safely when it became clear we were all in over our heads. Though the trucks that ran out of food considered it a HUGE success, the biggest moneymaker they'd ever shown at, it was a logistical nightmare, and cost many thousands of dollars in fines and police-presence fees that we hadn't accounted for (nor had the police, when we met with them prior to the event to discuss logistics).

Don't underestimate the power of creating events and publicizing them on social media. The downside to doing this for Armageddon, is there's no location. You can't expand your customer base by "x" number of miles, because Armageddon doesn't exist on a physical street address.

If you use hashtags though, you could probably extend it out toward the demographic you're looking for: literate gamers between the ages of 16 and 35.

We could put out an add offering huge discounts to people that roll up elves.


I think it would be setting appropriate.

Quote from: Riev on July 05, 2016, 03:06:22 PM
Facebook ads tend to be more of a bother and a scroll-fest than anything, but the idea of marketing isn't a bad one. MUDs are dying, and the only methods we appear to have are word of mouth (which, with less and less players, is less and less effective) and two MUD sites that have had the same users for decades.

There's gotta be another way to do marketing, and I'm sure there's someone who would be willing to volunteer knowledge of AdWords or whatever is used now.

I work with Facebook in many non-profit organizations and sometimes it takes time, but that actually works.  It may be much different in US, so I am not the one who can press the issue further.

On the other hand, "MUDs are dying" is an aurgument I disagree strongly.

There is a new generation out there for whom staying in front of a game for days/months/years is actually normal. I mean MMORPGs. One may argue those games have graphics, but those games offer very little to none in graphics sense compare to many video games out there. Also there is minecraft and other pixel games which offer almost no graphics but still millions are playing.

MUDs are not as popular as it was in mid-1990s, but player market is so so much greater now. Surely, a single mud like ARM can not affect a great change in game-culture, but in any case if there would be a chance to reach out even a small friction of that huge player-base, it would be great for ARM.

By the way, Google ads is nice idea.

To chime in on the "muds are dying", I'll point out that people said the same thing about books when television came about.

When there were no graphical MMO's, more people played muds, this is true, but I think with the rise of the internet, the net volume of mud players is bigger than that 1990's Ultima Online experience.

There will always be people who prefer text over graphics and an immersive roleplay environment over fancy features.

The bigger problem I see in the (several) muds that I play is stagnation. They simply are not innovating code-wise. I haven't really been here long enough to know if that's an Arm problem or not, but for many muds the lack of strong, sweeping code changes is a problem.

Lately, code changes for me are the most exciting thing to look forward to in ARM as far as updates go. I think there was a long time where we didn't really see anything at all, and right now I get excited whenever I see a post by Nessalin in staff announcements under Release Notes.

If you want to get older players back at least, you need bigger impacts in the story. When Tuluk closed, that was a big change, and I think it saw a big influx of older players returning, and it might even have kept newer players who could get involved in the action of the 'zombie' plots. I never saw the supposed 'light show' afterwards, but I don't mind that sort of thing. It sounded like there was some action going on in Allanak anyway, that had opposing sides and conflict.

I think there should be big story arcs that are set to last about three months, or half a year. I'm really tired of the sorcerer kings honestly. They really barely do anything, and they are just 'content' to sit in their cities. That's boring af. The Tablelands plot seemed to fizzle out, I know as a player I might have let down staff due to RL commitments, and it seems staff got busy RL as well. It might not have been so successful in the end, but the idea was great. In a RPI mud, I think you will find it easier on staff for big scale plots to be PVE. There should be small options underneath for treachery and PVP, but against a big antagonist against Allanak (the biggest PC centre for ARM), the enemy should be NPC. There are many, many ideas we could discuss and go for. Read some Harn campaigns, or D&D if you want inspiration. It would be great for another sorcerer king to pop up and really challenge the other doosh bags. Steinal would be a great example. Maybe since the city was buried, they have formed a Subterranean city, deep in the earth. For a long time they have been rebuilding in secret, and now are ready to return to the world. Allanak gets shit scared, needs greater weapons and armour for troops, needs to build fortifications to guard their eastern front. Grebbers will be called for stone, wood, obsidian in great numbers, etc. New players immediately can get involved with contributing to the war effort, or be conscripted as actual soldiers as the demand would be high. New players as recruits won't have crim immune, so they can't abuse, and it gives them a chance to get into combat with other more experienced players. Steinal is all NPC, and whenever the militia are out on patrols staff can throw down soldiers and they can actually have real battles on the field.

Armageddon: The Return of Steinal. Fuck yeah I want to get involved with that shit.
Armageddon: The Eyeless Swarm
Armageddon: The White Mantis King

Also, update Chronology pls. It's been well over a year... these little things are important to people. I'd suggest drastically shortening the time that needs to pass IG before staff are allowed to update it as well.

The current setting in Allanak and the area around redstorm does have issues that probably should get address in an HRPT. Just like issues with gypsy lands were beautifully resolved with the last hrpt, opening the door to some current plots. Those sorcerer kings and over powered servants are making things feel stale in a world where magick is actually beginning to feel more rare and mages are really people first. Would anyone really want to get involved with Templars/nobles in an openly hostile fashion towards the city, when their bosses are so overpowered they can kill you with a mere thought no matter where you are hiding in the known? Probably not. I know some people and have and will do so, but it really feels like a ticking time bomb, just a matter of when the staff will decide a red/black robe will notice and snap their fingers.

All that said, I'm really enjoying the direction of the game, and cannot give the staff kudos enough.

I know there are critics but Gith plot, and coded changes big and small make this game really interesting for both the new and old players. I remember us hitting 70~ people at peak before tuluk closed, that number soon dropped drastically, it still fluctuates but we are hitting 60~ some nights if not more again. The difference is off peak, where we used to average 10-15 people, is now 25-35. I really really love seeing places like Luirs and redstorm get attention, I would kinda love to see blackwing outpost, cenyr and morins get a bit more love as well if the player-base size allows it.

While I look forward to guild changes, and the next HRPT but I'm not bored or have a lack of things to explore/try lately. Meatcraft is a wonderful change for hunters, and there were some new cool rooms added which I recently found too with cool stuff to buy. In short, the staff just need to keep doing what they are doing and from all signs the population will continue to increase because its has become a much better, more robust game then it was 5, 3 even 1 year ago. This is important because when you do eventually have those big events that attracts alot of people to play, they'll probably end up staying to try out and explore some of the new RPing opportunities available thanks to all those small/big changes.

Alright, let me just drop this here, I'm not mad and I'm not interested in defending my statements. I have one idea of how I want to play and staff has another. They don't appear to be compatible so it's time to move on. Been fun, sorry it didn't work out, yada dada. No one mud ever feels the loss of any individual player and I've made no impact at all in my time here, but I think it's fair that at a point where you're concerned about the loss of players that I share why you're losing me.

I recently died (surprise!) and staff decided to punish me for treating my characters as disposable by not approving my next one for 48 hours.

Have I died a lot? Yes. I die doing what I like to do ... explore the game. And as you well know, exploring is extremely dangerous. Particularly after about 5 months when you've already fully mapped out all of the "safer" areas.

But the nature of the game you have set up here is that it's better to explore (and potentially lose) with a new character rather than an older, longer-lived one. Your skills will be higher with the older one and therefore your survival odds are better, but let's face it ... a 1 hour old character stands about the same chance of survival as a 3 day one up against a mekillot or a suicide squad of invisible gank spiders. Or 4 gith sitting at the bottom of a chasm.

So not only does an explorer have to go through the extreme risks of dying while exploring, but also apparently face staff scrutiny as to their motives when they're out in the wastes and get killed.

That means this game is not particularly explorer friendly, which pretty much crosses it off the available game list for someone who is explorer focused. While it's a very good game, well-coded, with excellent roleplay, it's simply not built to sustain the long-term interest of explorers. To be fair, I've been suspected that's the case for awhile since all I've been seeing in the release notes is fiddling around with wiz commands for creating drinks and such and not adding new areas. Eventually I was going to see and do everything possible and that would have been the end anyway.

So best of luck and I hope this gives you some insight into the explorer mentality and whether or not that's what you wish to attract in the future. No hard feelings. I had a great time.

Quote from: Miradus on July 08, 2016, 03:00:18 PM
I recently died (surprise!) and staff decided to punish me for treating my characters as disposable by not approving my next one for 48 hours.

Are you sure? I've had a good 150+ characters, many of them "throwaways" who just tried to eke out an existence in the middle of nowhere and died within hours. I've never had a word from staff about it.

Either staff policy changed recently (doubtful), you're leaving something out, or you had an atypical experience which you should probably follow up on with staff (maybe a higher staffer).

There's always the chance that your app just gets lost or overlooked in a queue or no staffer happens to be available for a time, too. Short of an actual message from Staff telling me as much, I'd be very skeptical of viewing the processing time for any sort of request as being maliciously delayed. If Staff want to punish you, they will tell you.

Quote from: Miradus on July 08, 2016, 03:00:18 PM
Eventually I was going to see and do everything possible and that would have been the end anyway.

So best of luck and I hope this gives you some insight into the explorer mentality and whether or not that's what you wish to attract in the future. No hard feelings. I had a great time.

Exploration is an aspect of the game, but Armageddon is devoted to a shared storytelling experience. If people are coming here for something beside that, they'll eventually leave - as demonstrated above.

The only players this game will ever successfully retain are those interested in its goal and identity. Resources devoted to other mentalities would be wasted.

There's definitely room for "shared storytelling" and "exploring" to co-exist. Sometimes I wish there was more of it, with House-sponsored expeditions to rare corners of the Known seeking out valuable resources. It does happen.

Armageddon's wildlife is punishingly unfriendly to the lone-explorer concept, however. Hell, it can be pretty punishing even to well-traveled prepared groups.

Miradus:  I think I've interacted with a few of your characters, and they were always fun to be around.  They amused me.  I've got a a -huge- number of characters that died before reaching 3 days of playing time because of the exact reason you stated.  Exploring.  It's dangerous, but also awesome.  20 years of playing this game, and there are still areas I haven't been, or have been few enough times that when I realize I'm hitting that area, my adrenaline actually spikes up just a tad.  Not to combat-against-players levels, but just enough that I have died in this way enough times that I -know- this is dangerous.  If you've been punished for this, then I think you're the first to be such, and I'd disapprove of such a thing.  I'd happily voice my complaint over it.  If it's true, post it over at that-other-place, because punishment for using the only means you have to learn the game is...not exactly conducive to anything.  This has been the system that people learned the game for a long time.  You lose characters doing it, you learn things, and that's that.  I can agree with the sentiment that your characters should act in a way of self-preservation, but expecting newer players to know -what- is in the interest of self preservation is pretty shady.

However.  As said by above posters, unless it was explicitly stated to you, I wouldn't sweat the 48 hour wait period.  While it's uncharacteristic nowadays, it's not particularly terrible, but that's me speaking as an old timer where I sometimes waited a -week- for characters to be approved.  Or I'd wait a week for a response to a special application, only to find out that I needed a change and would have to wait another few days for -that- to get approved, so that I could then apply for the actual character on the chargen and wait another 1-2 days after -that-.

Mostly, I'd say don't get pushed away by some silly sentiment of a staff member.  While I respect staff and what they do, they are still people who can get frustrated or overzealous in their endeavors (and thus slip into making poor judgments), and I plainly disagree with many decisions they make.  I also agree with many.  This different perspective on things is not a crime.  They just happened to want to run the game after a good portion of time playing it, while others don't.  That's the only difference between them and you.

I can say, with certainty, that you'd only enjoy the game more once your explorations were complete and you found new things to explore: the cultures, the interactions between groups, the politics, the economy, the nuances of code.  Exploring rooms is the very basic part of exploration in this game, but it's also the one that leads in the most meaningless-seeming deaths.  You've still got plenty more to contribute here, if you can stick through a bunch of nerds telling you that you're doing it wrong (myself included).

For a regular character, with no special apps its been routinely less than 12 hours to get approval. Even during times of heavy work loads on the game HRPT, or stress on the game or even when staff had to contact me on concerns about how I described my character's testicular fortitude, it would still take less than 24 hours to resolve and get approved. This has practically been my experience since I started to play the game back when luirs was destroyed by the mantis (11-12 years ago? geez probably longer)


My current character took a little under two days to get approved, so its a recent thing, and not one that targetted to any particular player I believe. It feels long if you really want to get into a new character concept, but sure beats the 6 days I used to have to wait to play a warrior/grebber app with their vast amounts of testicular fortitude described in painstaking detail.

Thanks for that, Arma, but the issue still stands. As to the wait, I received a specific email from staff stating that the reason for the delay was due to my going through characters at too rapid of a rate.

There were a number of things the staff member could have done besides giving me a 48 hour "timeout". And after you spent 30 hours hitting F5 on your email and wondering what's wrong, yeah, it kind of IS punishment. I don't believe I've ever had to wait more than a few hours (kudos to whomever has to sift through apps for getting it done in a timely fashion so often).

And while I don't really like to air my grievances publicly, here's the deal ... I don't see really any other way for me to do it. Is there an arbitration panel? A court of appeals? There's not even an easy way for me to respond to the request resolution (as to why my app was taking so long) and discuss it.

If my going out into the desert and getting killed frequently (which isn't by any means the sole tally of my deaths) while exploring and mapping is a problem, then it would have been proper to notify me prior to punishment.

The death that I think he's talking about is from me taking a brand new character out of Red Storm and [some things]. I had one particular day where I died 4 times, but most of that was due to nonsense like carru on the road north of Luir's and me not being able to get away fast enough. I know deliberately committing suicide is against the rules but taking a new character into a new place is not the same thing as suicide.

I'm not interested in going over to the other forum to complain about this. I'll air the complaint here or not at all. This mud is not explorer-friendly. I don't particularly CARE if I die because I'm having fun either way, but if a staff member thinks it is a problem that I'm dying this frequently then it's always going to be a problem and there's not really much future here for me. (And now that I've complained in public, there definitely isn't a future here for me.)

Anyway, that's the deal. Look, y'all have a game you enjoy. I'm not asking that you change the game to suit me or that you dedicate special resources to keep me entertained. I had found a way to enjoy your game within the coded constraints of your game. I would not enjoy playing your game as simply a glorified chat room with occasional combat.

[Edited out exploration detail that are best found out by doing it yourself.  ;) - val]

If you feel you've been wronged, file a Staff complaint. There is a hierarchy to Staff, as well as multiple members at each position. So review is possible, as well as conversation.

A game-related request is the proper avenue if Miradus would like to raise the issue for further review.  A staff-complaint request is also an option.

Miradus, we used to talk about these sort of between-the-player-and-the-staff things in the open air on the GDB sometimes, but we don't any longer, because almost always gets ugly and nobody needs their dirty laundry aired here.  See above - if you want to talk about it, send in another request.

Others, please stop conjecturing about what may or may not have happened in his particular case.  

Taking a new character out directly to continue the explorations of the former is definitely wobbling around on the IC/OOC line.

I understand the desire to explore, but as I explained in an earlier post, there are definitely ways to go about it that, while they require a bit more patience, are less likely to result in a string of multiple dead characters per week. I suggest just sending in a request to clarify with staff.

No, I'm not interested in filing a complaint into the complaint box. The fact that you didn't open a dialogue initially or before handing down a punishment tells me all I need to know about how that particular process would work out. And even if you decided to go ahead and approve my character then I'd still be left with always worrying about how many deaths is one too many. That sort of arbitrary high-handedness is a game killer.

So signing out. Hope this has been at least somewhat helpful as to know why you're not attracting or keeping explorers who are willing to also roleplay.

I think I'd file a staff complaint if I was told I was dying too much. Staff complaints aren't necessarily just to complain about staff but to also appeal decisions that you think need further review.

The most important thing though is to remain chill. Staff and players don't want to lose Armers over misunderstandings and you probably don't want to stop playing Arm.

Quote from: Miradus on July 08, 2016, 05:21:40 PM
punishment

You're the only one using that word.  Open a request if you want to discuss it.

Somewhats back on topic, also applies to our boy Miradus here in a way.

What really drew me to this game was the exploration, my roommate played and I watched him do some cool stuff and he told me cool stories and eventually it drew me in. When I started, the unknown was what I fucking LOVED about this game. I played in Tuluk forever and it wasn't until in my second year I think that I saw magick for the first time, I could have sworn I was at the epicenter of the biggest HRPT ever. It blew me away not knowing that there was just a spell X that did Y, but it was new and exciting to see a nilazi be all nilazi-y (that's right, the first time I saw magick was a full blown super nilazi going ham). I started making rangers and d-elves because I wanted to see things. I died. What kept me playing Armageddon was the community, good players, experienced player that took on the mantle of leadership and mentoring ig and showed me the world. This hardly made things safe, but it was so great exploring Zalanthas with players that knew how to make the most exotic parts of Armageddon come alive.

Opening up our world to newer players, be that a tavern brawl, putting an arrow in their back, blowing them to bits with a fireball or leading them on an exciting hunt... it's always about making a story together, the better the story, the stronger our community becomes, the more likely players are to stick around.

Well, that was depressing.  Wasn't Miradus a newbie?  This thread fails.  I, too, enjoy exploring.  I had the good fortune of doing it on long-lived characters.  I'm guessing not everyone gets lucky the first time.

Having been exposed, I still find the action taken silly, but I do understand why.   In retrospect, when I was doing my whole exploration thing, the fact that I'd have to wait for a new character -did- make it so that I'd rather flee and get away than start over (it should be noted that according to Miradus, he wasn't trying to die, but just didn't know the dangers of different places he was exploring, and he was exploring a lot).  But in today's age, without good, friendly dialogue over it, of course it will feel like punishment.  It -is- punishment.  It's just punishment with an actual lesson in mind, which is kind of the purpose. I think the request tool cuts down on a good amount of dialogue between players and staff, at least in my experience, due to the whole need for the 'request closed!' side of things, and a bit more dialogue prior to the action taken in this case may have worked wonders, as well as the understanding that it's a permadeath mud and some people are risk-takers, and some people are literally being exposed to risks for the first time.  They aren't bar-sitting and getting to know people.  They're getting into the game and moving around and trying to accomplish their own goals right off the bat.  That's...something that could end up with a really awesome player who gets tons of cool IC things done once they know the ins and outs, or it could result in a player who gives no fucks and runs around killing things.  I don't think this case was the latter, so again...dialogue -prior- to the action, actual dialogue, instead of just a ruling...would have been marvelous.  

I wonder if there's some way other explorer-types of the game could get submissions together to allude to cool exploration things while also emphasizing the roleplay side of finding things.  I mentioned it above, that our big selling point was the opportunity to -be the character-, and there's a fair amount of fear/self-preservation involved in that.  So having cool stories of distant places, without giving too much information on it, or something like that?  Tales of hostile lands that lead up to the death of the character?  There's got to be something to be done that is positive reinforcement or even positive punishment rather than negative punishment.  It's been a long time since I was a newbie, but I remember being fascinated by a lot more than just the places I could go, and it kept me from wandering around until boredom set in.  In the case that someone is constantly bored unless exploring, perhaps this the inevitable resting place of that dynamic.

On one hand, I'd really like to be able to retain new players, particularly those whose interactions with other people seem to be awesome.  But if that interaction can't be carried over into development of the character as a whole, and thus the accumulation of knowledge through it, rather than purely the accumulation of knowledge to be used in -later- characters...it's kind of an impasse.  This game isn't for everyone.  That's okay.  Trying to make it for everyone can mess things up more than fixing it.

I feel pretty good about it being discussed in the open, because it's a clear case of good intentions on both parts being misunderstood by the other part, and where communication was the important part, not the action.  God knows how many times I would have left as a newbie if I didn't have Sanvean (and Zagren and other good staffers who sent me emails) guiding me patiently through their understanding of my part, and the explanation of what was expected of me and what should change and what would -be nice- but wasn't absolutely necessary.  Yes, I'm sure it gets old, but after all...it -was- a job that was volunteered for.

Sounds to me like one player taking up a lot of staff time over characters they don't even intend to TRY and preserve for a few days. If I had more pressing things to do, I'd give him a time out too. You know carrus kill your characters. So here's a tip - stop running out where carrus are by yourself. Or, go ahead, and chalk it up to you, continuing to do the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

That doesn't mean it's an explorer-unfriendly game. It's a "reasonably intelligent game player" game. If you keep sending your PC out on what you already KNOW are suicide missions, then don't gripe when your characters die. And then don't gripe when the staff gets tired of having to read apps from you several times in the same day and finally tell you to chill out for a couple of days.

Sorry - no empathy here. I don't know of ANY new player who has experienced what you've experienced, to the level that you've experienced it. The game was tougher 20 years ago and managed to do just fine, attracting explorer-type players the entire two decades. So no, it's not explorer-unfriendly. If it were, all those explorer types who've been playing throughout the last 20 years wouldn't have been playing it. That includes me.

Quote from: seidhr on July 08, 2016, 05:10:12 PM
Others, please stop conjecturing about what may or may not have happened in his particular case. 

Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 08, 2016, 06:39:35 PM

Quote from: seidhr on July 08, 2016, 05:10:12 PM
Others, please stop conjecturing about what may or may not have happened in his particular case.  

Mine isn't conjecture anymore. :)

Edit:  Or, at the very least, I've been given more of both sides of the exchange, but not necessarily all of it.  Just enough to know what transpired and why that ended up pushing someone away.

On a Player Magnetizing note, I'm going to go back to something Majkal said:

Quote from: Majikal on July 08, 2016, 05:55:20 PM
Opening up our world to newer players, be that a tavern brawl, putting an arrow in their back, blowing them to bits with a fireball or leading them on an exciting hunt... it's always about making a story together, the better the story, the stronger our community becomes, the more likely players are to stick around.

I think most of us can agree that one of the strengths and draws of Armageddon is the immersive world and the sense of being a part of it. Engaging newbies in your plots, or even just conversations and daily happenings, is a great way for both engaging them with the world and keeping the world a living, breathing, immersive thing.

Don't be shy about doing things, and engaging other players to help you do them.

Thanks for posting your experience Miradus.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 08, 2016, 06:48:41 PM
Thanks for posting your experience assumptions Miradus.

FTFY

Toxicity noted.  Irony found in the thread dedicated to attracting people to play.  Disapproval earned.

Hope you come back and give it another go soon, Miradus, or find another game that gives you what you're looking for.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on July 08, 2016, 06:43:00 PM
On a Player Magnetizing note, I'm going to go back to something Majkal said:

Quote from: Majikal on July 08, 2016, 05:55:20 PM
Opening up our world to newer players, be that a tavern brawl, putting an arrow in their back, blowing them to bits with a fireball or leading them on an exciting hunt... it's always about making a story together, the better the story, the stronger our community becomes, the more likely players are to stick around.

I think most of us can agree that one of the strengths and draws of Armageddon is the immersive world and the sense of being a part of it. Engaging newbies in your plots, or even just conversations and daily happenings, is a great way for both engaging them with the world and keeping the world a living, breathing, immersive thing.

Don't be shy about doing things, and engaging other players to help you do them.

I think there needs to be a way to emphasize that momentous changes and huge world-changing plots are few and far between, and that it really -is- about the little developments and the states between you and other characters that we work on to enjoy the game, rather than focusing on things like 'I want to make a permanent castle for people to visit.'

Edit: My quotes were wonky.

Quote from: Reiloth on July 08, 2016, 06:57:17 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 08, 2016, 06:48:41 PM
Thanks for posting your experience assumptions Miradus.

FTFY

Seriously, an attitude doesn't improve anything. Like Yam said, be chill.

Players airing their grievances like this is always shitty - even if staff are in the wrong. Always the usual bickering between cliques over it.

Obviously would be solved by better communication on the part of both parties, but when one party refuses to because they feel the other wronged them - and refuses to publicly to try make a point, it goes all petty. Grow up people. If there's miscommunication, fix it like adults.

I think it's likely the staff member who got his app was like "Hey, other staff, is this something we need to look at?" And waited for a response from others, which took a couple days. And they responded, "No, seems fine, approved."

I know we should stop conjecturing, but nobody has posted this entirely reasonable scenario.

I'm not of the opinion that the game is for everyone. If someone writes a rant about how Staff is out to get them because their character approval took "48 hours" ... Eh. I don't have much sympathy or think that's anything but a big assumption. Sure, I'd be happy with Miradus playing the game. I'd also encourage him to assume less and communicate more.

Quote from: Reiloth on July 08, 2016, 07:36:58 PM
I'm not of the opinion that the game is for everyone. If someone writes a rant about how Staff is out to get them because their character approval took "48 hours" ... Eh. I don't have much sympathy or think that's anything but a big assumption. Sure, I'd be happy with Miradus playing the game. I'd also encourage him to assume less and communicate more.

Quote from: seidhr on July 08, 2016, 05:10:12 PM
Others, please stop conjecturing about what may or may not have happened in his particular case. 

Quote from: Case on July 08, 2016, 07:27:30 PM
Players airing their grievances like this is always shitty - even if staff are in the wrong. Always the usual bickering between cliques over it.

Obviously would be solved by better communication on the part of both parties, but when one party refuses to because they feel the other wronged them - and refuses to publicly to try make a point, it goes all petty. Grow up people. If there's miscommunication, fix it like adults.

Yup, and that is one of the things that can repel new players. You want to attract new players, then don't post about why you DON'T play anymore, on a thread that asks for suggestions about how to attract more players. The fact that the staff has allowed it to stay in this thread is testament of their patience and tolerance, frankly.

Better communication doesn't really apply to new players though. New players have no frame of reference. They have basically no actual communication with staff at all, yet. All they have is an account and a first application.

What I think -would- be helpful, is if the old "review" were still used by staff to watch new players with their first RL week's worth of play. No matter how many or few characters they have during those 7 days - at least one e-mail from staff letting them know *something* - about their play. "I saw you RPing with your mount this morning, I enjoyed that, keep it up!" or "Two days ago you were arguing with your character's brand new boss. That's fine, but you might want to explore -why- your character has a problem with authority. For some tips on bringing your character's desires and peeves to life, try "help think" and "help mood" and the new "whisper self" command."

Or something like that.

Just a first head's up in the first week of the account's existence, to encourage new players to continue doing great, or to check a help file or direct them to request tool and the helper chat if it looks like they're having trouble with anything.

He's given his side of the story, then there's the other side of the story.  As I've already explained we (staff) don't do the whole public airing of grievances (Festivus?) on the GDB anymore, and I've explained why.  Suffice to say that were I to explain the staff's perspective it would be different than how he's explained it from his angle.

Miradus, you are welcome to play again anytime you like, perhaps after a day or two of perspective have set in - or you at least are willing to chalk it up to a difference of opinion, which we do allow here.

Everybody else:  Let's take the snark level down as much as we can - it's not too much to ask, is it?

How disgusting toxic this community still is towards each other. Even towards new people who have grown up in a culture that encourages them to speak out their mind openly. I can't really imagine anyone coming here, reading some of these posts, and thinking, yeah these are people I want to invest my time to play with.

 ::)

I'd say grow thicker skin! The internet, the world really, is full of opinions. We don't need to be soft and sympathetic to every single person's supposed plight. I think people should just play the game if they like playing the game, really. If a couple opinionated people touting their internet knowledge turns people off from playing a game...Eh. I'd say they weren't going to stick around in the first place. Do you guys even remember Carnage???

OT, I think original submissions being fixed/easy to access/easy to use and search through would go a long way towards magnetizing players and keeping players. I know when I first started playing, it was very fun to read through past logs and stories (both fictional and true) and would inspire me to play or make my own stories.

There's something to be said for players of the now-era being higher maintenance than before.  Before we were often left to our own devices, left to challenge the game for survival, and if we cheated?  BLAM!  Character gone.  Bans were left for interactions between players and staff.  Twinking?  You got away with it...until you didn't, and the soldiers you were killing reacted by calling in the half-giants, or whatever.

I want to say deal with it.  I do.  But in the spirit of actually retaining people, I don't think that's the healthiest way to go.  We can't have it both ways.  So Lizzie's idea might be helpful, particularly in cases like this where a heads up that death shouldn't be this common, and here are some things you can do to avoid it based off what you're doing.  Yes, high maintenance, but...well, how far do we think we should go, as far as attracting and holding new players?  I know Lizzie wants the expectation high on players.  Figure it out.  Enjoy the struggle.  If you don't enjoy the struggle and the hardness, this isn't the game for you.  I'm more often than not in that camp as well.

Overall, I think Lizzie's idea might at least push things in the right direction.  Expecting everyone to be exactly what we need without active, real feedback is a pretty high bar to have, and I don't think that feedback needs to be coupled with negative punishment, or with phrases like 'We're actively not approving your character'.  That just...pushes things in the wrong direction.  Of course that will lead to bad blood, who wouldn't see that coming?  Hell.  An approval with an attached message of 'This is your last approval for the day and I'd like you to open this kind of request to discuss some habits of yours' is better than the sudden shutdown.  (note that this is not snarking at staff, but leading into the question below)

But that question does need to be addressed of not only just how much we want to expect out of a new(er) player, but also how far you want to go in molding them towards the expectation the game has.  This will allow us to set up realistic goals as far as how to attract them.  TMC attracts people who are -not- used to this level of demand on living in character.  So does TMS.  Are we going to promote an air of permissiveness in effort to move things the right way for less-inclined players to adjust to, or snark them off the board and tell them to come back when they can do it our way?  If the objective is to find new players, the next step is to decide what bar we set as far as behavior, and how hard we come down on breaches of it.

While I empathize with you, Miradus, your decision to leave is your own.  I regret that you got what you got, but in all seriousness, what you got wasn't really that bad (Did I ever tell you I was banished to a room without exits for 2 days of playing time to read helpfiles and not use skills because of multi-playing?  I got to hang out with staffers who came and visited me during that time and talked, at least).  Player applications can take time to approve, and having to wait a day isn't so bad, even if the note telling you so is less than friendly.  I'd hope that you could read through the imperiousness and receive the message.  You're a smart fella.  But more than anything else, whether you go or stay, I'd like to use it as a force for us to do our own exploring, in what we do and don't want to accept in the name of player growth (and thus, maybe, also put the thread back on track) as well as how to best 'adapt' people to the high standard that Armageddon has.

True. I remember my wife trying to play the game, and the learning curve was so abysmally hard for her, that she gave up very quickly. She's a nerd, loves Fantasy, loves Dark Sun even as a D&D campaign setting -- So there is definitely a disconnect here somewhere. She'd be a perfect player in some senses, but the syntax was just too hard for her.

I of course grew up playing MUDs at nutrition and lunch time in the Library when I was in middle school and high school. So all of the things like 'i' for inventory and 'l in bag' come very naturally to me. But for her, she couldn't even drink from a waterskin. Or get it filled. A lot of these little code syntax snafus can be a major turn off for a new player.

It'd be interesting to poll new players, or find a way to get them to answer some questions the third or fourth time they log in. What's easy about playing the game? What's hard? That sort of thing might be helpful to figure out.

I think the hardest part about this game is finding someone that won't ignore you that is willing to teach you a thing or two ICly about the game or at least help keep you interested enough until you find a clan so they can teach you.


I have a idea though how about we treat new players with a bit more consideration? As Armaddict says in the spirit of player rentention.  Considering they are probably fustrated at shitty stuff we've come to understand or rather accept about the game. Instead of just sounding like hypocrites as we post ideas about how to keep new players after treating one like shit? Thicker skin and all.

Quote from: Dresan on July 08, 2016, 09:12:07 PM
I think the hardest part about this game is finding someone that won't ignore you that is willing to teach you a thing or two ICly about the game or at least help keep you interested enough until you find a clan so they can teach you.


I have a idea though how about we treat new players with a bit more consideration? As Armaddict says in the spirit of player rentention.  Considering they are probably fustrated at shitty stuff we've come to understand or rather accept about the game. Instead of just sounding like hypocrites as we post ideas about how to keep new players after treating one like shit? Thicker skin and all.

::)

I mean, take what you want from what people say, basically. If you want to be offended, be offended. But I don't think we 'owe' new players a shoulder to cry on. Maybe that's just the Grizzled Scarred Old Vet that I am, but I don't think a lot of this stuff is a big deal. I can understand they are maybe frustrated with Staff, but that should mean they talk to Staff about it, not air their dirty laundry on the GDB to rally a 'cause' to their side.

Quote from: Reiloth on July 08, 2016, 09:14:58 PM

Quote from: Dresan on July 08, 2016, 09:12:07 PM
I think the hardest part about this game is finding someone that won't ignore you that is willing to teach you a thing or two ICly about the game or at least help keep you interested enough until you find a clan so they can teach you.


I have a idea though how about we treat new players with a bit more consideration? As Armaddict says in the spirit of player rentention.  Considering they are probably fustrated at shitty stuff we've come to understand or rather accept about the game. Instead of just sounding like hypocrites as we post ideas about how to keep new players after treating one like shit? Thicker skin and all.

::)

Quote from: Reiloth on July 08, 2016, 08:17:58 PM
I'd say grow thicker skin! The internet, the world really, is full of opinions.

:-*

Quote from: Dresan on July 08, 2016, 09:18:39 PM

Quote from: Reiloth on July 08, 2016, 09:14:58 PM

Quote from: Dresan on July 08, 2016, 09:12:07 PM
I think the hardest part about this game is finding someone that won't ignore you that is willing to teach you a thing or two ICly about the game or at least help keep you interested enough until you find a clan so they can teach you.


I have a idea though how about we treat new players with a bit more consideration? As Armaddict says in the spirit of player rentention.  Considering they are probably fustrated at shitty stuff we've come to understand or rather accept about the game. Instead of just sounding like hypocrites as we post ideas about how to keep new players after treating one like shit? Thicker skin and all.

::)

Quote from: Reiloth on July 08, 2016, 08:17:58 PM
I'd say grow thicker skin! The internet, the world really, is full of opinions.

:-*

*taps the Maxid microphone*

MY POSITION IS UNASSAILABLE...!

*coughs*

In all seriousness, who cares. Play the game, or don't.

You're literally in a thread about retaining people. We care. If you don't there's really no need to post then is there?

"Play the game, or don't."
Thats how every garrysmod community I had been apart of had died.
Then again, different types of games.

I'm not trying to add conjecture about Miradus' experience when I say this: If a delay in playing ARM seems like a punishment, then Arm is doing /something/ right.

I AM an explorer, the worst part about the change in the magick classes, is that I'm not sure if I'll get to explore as much as I did. I found some amazing things, and sometimes, hoping for an explanation or elaboration on what in the hell those things were, is one of the reasons I keep hopping back on. I keep wanting to add conjecture to the stuff Miradus said, though. I think it's because it's really interesting, and I have a lot feelings and things I want to address, so, let's see if I can resolve that some other way. Ummm...

Okay. Staff to player communication is really, really tricky. One person can see a word, and interpret it as a different word with different implications, and be upset, when those implications weren't there to begin with. Maybe there are some ways we can work on that aspect of player retention? Communication? I certainly know I'm freaking awful at it, at times. What else was there...

Aha! Seidhr suggested at one point, opening a request to resolve issues that were brought up. I believe the response was basically 'I know how it's going to go'. I've felt like this, up until someone I knew got on staff and I was like, wait a minute.... You're a really complex person. And you have to interact with strangers through text? Is that going to go well? Maybe it did, maybe it didn't, but that was one of the first times I fully comprehended that staff were multi-faceted, complex individuals, and that you can have many different types of interaction, the majority of them likely unpredictable.

It may or may not be a great idea, but I'd like to hear what staff and players think about the staff having profiles? By profiles, I don't mean a summary of their contact information, a signature, and their local time. I mean a place dedicated to expressing themselves however they like, posting pictures, airing their own (non game sensitive) grievances or ideas. I would like to see more of staff, because as it is, I barely know anything about any of them at all. Facelessness usually breeds fear or contempt.

I'm going to add to this thread even more later, but right now, I need some sleeeep. Good luck keeping the convo going, it's an interesting read so far.

I really don't agree with a lot of opinions here.  What you've got here is a game that's the mental equivalent of reading the Tetragrammaton in wingdings font, and you want people to play your archaic game, but please, only the people who are playing the way we want, but of course, we did tell you what we want, can't you read wingdings font?!

Of course, I'd be happy to offer constructive opinions of my own, but I think you've gotta get over this hump of ostracizing new players.  I haven't played with this Miradus guy, but judging from his forum persona, I do think there's a loss.  If these are the kinds of interesting, creative players you're willing to push away, what do you actually want?

Quote from: seidhr on July 08, 2016, 05:10:12 PM
Miradus, we used to talk about these sort of between-the-player-and-the-staff things in the open air on the GDB sometimes, but we don't any longer, because almost always gets ugly and nobody needs their dirty laundry aired here.

I don't recall a time when this was ever a thing, even though pretty much everyone (staff excluded) agreed that it should have been.

*edit, removed comment to Miradus, my input isnt needed*
*edited again to add a few 'magnets' that have kept me here, in case a new player perspective is helpful*

I confess that within less than a year I've abandoned my other MMO (EVE online) and play Arm almost exclusively now!

Things that have kept me here:
1. RPI.  This makes Arm a total escape from IRL.  I love that I don't have to hear about the dallas shootings, or the seahawks score, or anything like that while I play.  Immersiveness.
2. Open PK. I love that I have to worry about every character's motives, and be in a constant low-level state of paranoia about whether they intend to kill me.
3. Permadeath.  This levels the playing field.  I love that, code and map knowledge aside, a character whose player who has been here for 2 decades has no advantages over my character.  In other MMOs, long-time players have accumulated so much wealth that it is impossible to ever compete with them.
4. This game is brutal AF.  I love that it is so hard to live.  I love that it is a challenge just to keep my characters fed and watered.  I love that there are mega-fauna within just a few rooms of the gates that can easily squish me if I play stupidly.
5. The players.  Goes without saying, ya'll are some of the best gamers I've interacted with.
6. Mudsex (see #5).

Quote from: Malken on July 09, 2016, 11:42:34 AM

Quote from: seidhr on July 08, 2016, 05:10:12 PM
Miradus, we used to talk about these sort of between-the-player-and-the-staff things in the open air on the GDB sometimes, but we don't any longer, because almost always gets ugly and nobody needs their dirty laundry aired here.

I don't recall a time when this was ever a thing, even though pretty much everyone (staff excluded) agreed that it should have been.

I also was not around for a time, if it was a thing.
I do recall a post saying the same thing Seidhr did though, of why they don't openly adress things.

There were 2-3 instances I can think of where staff-player back and forth on the GDB stirred up a shit-storm. Multiple people suggested they stop doing that and they did.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 09, 2016, 02:13:53 PM
There were 2-3 instances I can think of where staff-player back and forth on the GDB stirred up a shit-storm. Multiple people suggested they stop doing that and they did.

Ah. I just didn't recall one is all.
Then again my breaks are strange.

Kronibas and Asanadas are the two that stand out in my mind. It just doesn't help anyone to air dirty laundry/grievances on the GDB. It ends up ugly on both sides, IMHO.

So just in case people forgot.

How should we attract/keep more players towards Armageddon?

Quote from: Majikal on July 09, 2016, 02:37:19 PM
How should we attract/keep more players towards Armageddon?

My dance studio has what they call "guest night" where, once a night, they make it super extra cool and awesome for new people in the hope that said new people will stick around hoping that it's cool like that all the time.

I'd say we should have a once a week super cool fun night with events going on and advertise it to newbies has -the- night you want to log in if you're thinking of trying Armageddon but that would require "fun and cool stuff" to happen on said date and time.

Quote from: Majikal on July 09, 2016, 02:37:19 PM
So just in case people forgot.

How should we attract/keep more players towards Armageddon?

Said it before and I will say it again.  Expand the newb area and let staff or trusted players set up distinct avatars (for the help area only) there to help newbs with syntax, rules and rp in general. It would be an OOC place, yet still with IC descriptions etc.  

It would be staffed by players like the help channel is. Kind of like an in game, animated version of helper chat.

You don't -have- to go there at start up, yet it would be an option for -all- players at all times, using a simple command (like to go get your scars added).

The only problem I see with this, is that players might end up seeing/meeting each other there. Yet I think this is preferable to using a lot of OOC in game.

Right now if I want to help someone in game, I try and use the way.  Yet I have had new players pass out doing that. :-\ Must be a better way (no pun intended).

Quote from: Malken on July 09, 2016, 02:55:24 PM

Quote from: Majikal on July 09, 2016, 02:37:19 PM
How should we attract/keep more players towards Armageddon?

My dance studio has what they call "guest night" where, once a night, they make it super extra cool and awesome for new people in the hope that said new people will stick around hoping that it's cool like that all the time.

Teach me to dance!

Quote from: Norcal on July 09, 2016, 03:01:23 PM

Quote from: Majikal on July 09, 2016, 02:37:19 PM
So just in case people forgot.

How should we attract/keep more players towards Armageddon?

Said it before and I will say it again.  Expand the newb area and let staff or trusted players set up distinct avatars (for the help area only) there to help newbs with syntax, rules and rp in general. It would be an OOC place, yet still with IC descriptions etc.  

It would be staffed by players like the help channel is. Kind of like an in game, animated version of helper chat.

You don't -have- to go there at start up, yet it would be an option for -all- players at all times, using a simple command (like to go get your scars added).

The only problem I see with this, is that players might end up seeing/meeting each other there. Yet I think this is preferable to using a lot of OOC in game.

Right now if I want to help someone in game, I try and use the way.  Yet I have had new players pass out doing that. :-\ Must be a better way (no pun intended).

Quote from: Malken on July 09, 2016, 02:55:24 PM

Quote from: Majikal on July 09, 2016, 02:37:19 PM
How should we attract/keep more players towards Armageddon?

My dance studio has what they call "guest night" where, once a night, they make it super extra cool and awesome for new people in the hope that said new people will stick around hoping that it's cool like that all the time.

Teach me to dance!

I believe staff members receive an alert any time a new player logs in for the first time and a couple of them have mentioned in the past that they hop in to check on newbies in the starter area.

Norcal's idea is the same as how they had it in Shadows of Isildur's OOC area. That was definitely one of the things about that game that I really liked. Expanding the Hall of Kings to include a lounge - and if you exit from the game and are a helper, you have an added option on your exit menu to hop into the OOC lounge to check on new players. You'd be there as some nondescript something - a generic elf, or generic human or something (I think SoI had trolls but the concept is the same).

My brother recently gave Armageddon a try (not a very long one) but he did attempt it and has intentions of coming back, I mostly watched him for the first couple of days to help him with the syntax and teach him some of the stuff he didn't get out of the documentation. He got the full Byn experience and thought it was pretty rad. Watching him get ig though was my first time seeing the newbie help course though which I thought was pretty cool. He sat around in there practicing some of the talking and emoting syntax for awhile. At one point a staffer hopped in and helped make things a bit more interactive while he was learning which was awesome.

An ooc lounge on MUDs is always pretty cool IMO, SoI's is the only reason I gave that MUD a try cause the helpful players there helped draw me into the game. I wouldn't be against the idea of Armageddon having something similar where newbies could chat with players and ask some questions or talk about the latest vidya games or whatever.

Our newbie training course though was pretty cool, I somehow never noticed that it was implimented.

I'm very pro the idea of a 'characterless' lounge.  You can only go in there while you don't have a pc/waiting on approval.  Dork around, practice for newbies with snytax and help files, maybe gab with staff if they are idling there.  If done tastefully and right, fun.

Quote from: Kryos on July 10, 2016, 02:39:49 AM
I'm very pro the idea of a 'characterless' lounge.  You can only go in there while you don't have a pc/waiting on approval.  Dork around, practice for newbies with snytax and help files, maybe gab with staff if they are idling there.  If done tastefully and right, fun.

I just shitpost with Rath whenever he's on the teamspeak, It's basically the same thing.
If the teamspeak was more inforced as a 'helpers chat without the helpers chat where you can have fun' people would get on it more, probably.

Quote
I just shitpost with Rath whenever he's on the teamspeak, It's basically the same thing.
If the teamspeak was more inforced as a 'helpers chat without the helpers chat where you can have fun' people would get on it more, probably.

cannot stand voice comms, personally.  Don't like talking on 'em, don't like listening to other people talk.  I'm really quite antisocial IRL.  I have a problem.

Quote from: 650Booger on July 10, 2016, 02:37:11 PM

Quote
I just shitpost with Rath whenever he's on the teamspeak, It's basically the same thing.
If the teamspeak was more inforced as a 'helpers chat without the helpers chat where you can have fun' people would get on it more, probably.

cannot stand voice comms, personally.  Don't like talking on 'em, don't like listening to other people talk.  I'm really quite antisocial IRL.  I have a problem.

Same here. I'm hearing impaired and read lips to distinguish words. If I can't see them talking, it all sounds like muddled gibberish. Which - it might actually be, in which case I'm hearing them perfectly. :)

If it makes you feel better most of the time we just type or one of the fuckers is playing a game and keeps hitting his push to talk key.

Make a custom client, spiff up the UI just a bit and put Armageddon on steam. A lot of people randomly brows games on steam, I think it would greatly increase population.

If that were a priority, I think having Arm added to mudlet's default listing of MUD's would be easy. As yet, it still isn't.

Oh my god a custom (and customizable) client on Steam would be amazing.

I messed around on some of the games that get hundreds of players at a time to see what the big deal was. Even went back to one of my first muds, Dragonrealms (related to gemstone iv on TMS), to see what's drawing such numbers. All signs point to what a lot of people said earlier in this thread: staff-run events. They hold closer to the GM-player relationship you'll find in a classic roleplaying game, where the action is presented by the facilitators on a big delicious platter and the excitement comes from how the players react to it. It doesn't even have to be a big boring war or a world-changing event, just the fact that things are always happening, that special quests are available that might win a player some unique trophy or bragging rights. I think there's still a collective memory of a bad taste going around the old guard here regarding what happens when you plan something big and a handful of troublemaker players in important roles ruin it for you.

Also pets and microtransactions, but we can skip that.

Quote from: Kryos on July 10, 2016, 02:39:49 AM
I'm very pro the idea of a 'characterless' lounge.  You can only go in there while you don't have a pc/waiting on approval.  Dork around, practice for newbies with snytax and help files, maybe gab with staff if they are idling there.  If done tastefully and right, fun.

I think this would help retain people who keep killing their characters to exploration dehydration like I did. I had to come back twice in order to be hooked, simply because character approval takes a day. People who begin the game by trying to kill mekillots would also benefit from this. Just learn how to sit table, maybe have a few regenerating items in the room such as 'a kalan fruit' and 'a head-sized piece of grey stone' for people to mess with/eat/equip/put on tables, read the damn mekillot helpfile, things like that.

Quote from: a french mans shirt on October 02, 2016, 11:54:41 PM

Quote from: Kryos on July 10, 2016, 02:39:49 AM
I'm very pro the idea of a 'characterless' lounge.  You can only go in there while you don't have a pc/waiting on approval.  Dork around, practice for newbies with snytax and help files, maybe gab with staff if they are idling there.  If done tastefully and right, fun.

I think this would help retain people who keep killing their characters to exploration dehydration like I did. I had to come back twice in order to be hooked, simply because character approval takes a day. People who begin the game by trying to kill mekillots would also benefit from this. Just learn how to sit table, maybe have a few regenerating items in the room such as 'a kalan fruit' and 'a head-sized piece of grey stone' for people to mess with/eat/equip/put on tables, read the damn mekillot helpfile, things like that.

Additionally it would help us tweakers who are between characters and waiting on spec. Apps. Super pro this idea at least to drop the learning curve a smidgen.