Armageddon General Discussion Board

Whether it's been as an AoD PC or just a character who hates every other character, the Crimcode is often on my mind. Maybe it's because I joined Armageddon expecting to be murdered within 6 hours of playtime, but I've long felt the Crimcode is just too damn prevalent, punishing, and anachronistically effective. You know it's crazy when a soldier can punch a dude from beetleback and cause a half-dozen half giants to leap down from the rooftops to obliterate the poor schmuck. I'm sure we've all seen similar responses to something as innocuous as kicking someone in a bar fight.

In the interest of a more dynamic, engaging game, I propose the following: that crimcode in its current form be removed entirely. I see the following benefits from this:

1) VIP PCs will need to seriously rely on their on bodyguards for protection. Whether you're playing a silky-tressed indie merchant hauling all her coins around to avoid the Nenyuk fees, or a slumming noble who wants to cockslap commoners with their signet ring, you better invest some energy in acquiring bodyguards. A lot of clanned VIPs (nobles, templars, GMH) have access to NPC guards, but there's also numerous PC resources that can be utilized.

2) Disputes can be settled publicly and quickly. I recently had Staff bemoan to me how the current strategy for PVP is wait for everyone else to store. They didn't take me up on my request to grant my PC crim-code immunity so I could go back to settling things personally, but I suspect the point holds true for a lot of us: we'd fight people a lot more if it doing so didn't cause soldiers to pop out from behind ever rubbish pile. The long game of recruiting Templarate support, finding a adequately-skilled up assassin with the proper playtimes... that's all well and good. But this is fucking Allanak. Straight-forward public violence should always be an option. Think it's unrealistic? In the middle ages it wasn't unheard of for fucking dukes to be murdered in the streets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Louis_I,_Duke_of_Orl%C3%A9ans) by masked thugs. Enormously risky and potentially destabilizing? Sure! But at least it's something!

3) Racism and discrimination will be given free hand. Go ahead, throw rotten petochs at that breed! Take a swing at the Gemmed! Just don't be too surprised when the Gemmed fireballs you back... The resulting chaos will certainly keep Templars busy.

4) The AoD clan will have more relevance in the City. Right now, every duty they can perform in the City can be done as well or better by NPCs. Make it so people can't rely on the pop-up soldiers for protection and it'll start paying a lot more to have a few soldier friends to come bail you out. The AoD will also get more chance to practice their skills if they can attack people down in the City without sentencing them to Death-by-half-giant.

5) Eliminates crimcode abuse and mistakes. No more awkward mass-clanning before city RPTs involving Soldier NPCs to keep us all from getting killed by soldiers (especially those who really shouldn't). No more soldier-PCs getting in trouble because they're subduing people out of the Gaj, into a hovel to get murdered. See your friend getting grabbed by soldiers? Fight back! Soldiers, see that sniveling shit at the bar? Kill him!

Our tagline is "Murder, Corruption, and Betrayal." A lot of people seem to think the first of those needs to come after the other two. I disagree. Remove crimcode and let physical violence and murder come to the forefront once again.


Disclaimer: None of this probably codedly feasible, but when has that ever stopped us from discussing something?

Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 10, 2015, 03:27:20 PM
3) Racism and discrimination will be given free hand. Go ahead, throw rotten petochs at that breed! Take a swing at the Gemmed! Just don't be too surprised when the Gemmed fireballs you back... The resulting chaos will certainly keep Templars busy.

Love the idea.  I did manage to play a PC who did the 'daggers-at-night' thing on the street, but for the most part, yeah, it seemed like the only Murder that happened was apartment-style seduce-and-stab - and I literally had conversations IG about best strategy in dealing with an enemy and the 'wait until they store or die from scrab' strategy was not-so-obliquely brought up and the one most often pursued.  (Partly this was playtimes: very rarely would the opportunity happen.)

I would say that you'd still want 'mob justice' or some sort of virtual/non-virtual reaction to gemmed casting in the street.  That's the type of shit that'll get a Quarter burnt down.

I'm not for removal, but reducing prevalence would be great.

I'd agree with reducing the prevalence of soldiers, particularly in the commoner's quarters and the Gaj.

This was done in Tuluk a bit before it closed so there's precedence that can be examined if people are worried about unforeseen effects.

This is the best post you have ever done Skeelz. Even if not removed they should remove the HG death squads and replace them with say, a couple of humans.

What was done with warrens basically was amazing. No freespawns just the coded soldiers on patrol would jump in. I killed someone in the daytime once (it clicked over to dawn) and was attacked by one soldier who had wandered nearby without my knowledge.

I do not think it makes sense to remove NPC soldiers and leave it to PCs, because the PC soldiers are supposed to be one of many legions/units, and I don't know why the entirety of city defense would be suddenly left wholly up to them. What we have now is definitely excessive, though, and options for murder within the city are very limited.

Changes are a lot of work. So, my suggestion might not be practical. I'd like if we could try out a few levels of crim control and find what makes the most sense thematically and for playability.

I would not like every newly spawned pc to be nothing more than a piggy bank for they first thug the wander past on their way out of the gaj's dorm.

Voted to reduce the prevalence, meaning the response time, not necessarily much else.  Oh and the Gaj being less "lawful".  Some specific points.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 10, 2015, 03:27:20 PM
1) VIP PCs will need to seriously rely on their on bodyguards for protection.

With a slower response time, guards would be needed to buy time for the militia to arrive.  That said, making an open attempt on a VIP in broad daylight is both desperate and bold.  I would expect success rates to be only marginally higher.  I'd bet lack of (really reverse) bleeding code saves more of these sorts.  Being stabbed and knocked unconscious should be a virtual death sentence, not a quick route to a healthier you, but I digress.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 10, 2015, 03:27:20 PM2) Disputes can be settled publicly and quickly.

Longer delay on Militia arrival allows this too.  Just better be quick about it.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 10, 2015, 03:27:20 PM3) Racism and discrimination will be given free hand. Go ahead, throw rotten petochs at that breed! Take a swing at the Gemmed! Just don't be too surprised when the Gemmed fireballs you back... The resulting chaos will certainly keep Templars busy.

And this is where I start to think maybe the crim code needs to stay as it is because of the HUGE impact IC and OOC of abuse of a lack of crimcode.  A spiced out combat beast or a gemmed can end the stories of so many characters in such a short period of time that failing to properly cut that off can quickly damage the playerbase.  First time it's stunning and a story to talk about.  Second time it's just annoying, third time it happens in the same week?  Dozens of PCs are dead and we have a board erupting into complaints and calls for lockdowns on violent behavior in the city.  Griefers, particularly those with twink Murder Master would LOVE a lack of crimcode.  They could laugh all day about how they rekt someone's long-lived RP character with their 2-day throw-away.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 10, 2015, 03:27:20 PM4) Right now, every duty they can perform in the City can be done as well or better by NPCs.

NPCs can't investigate, interrogate, or infuriate other PCs as well AoD PCs can.  Much like the threads about GMH Hunters being more than just hunters, I think AoD soldiers need to think of themselves as more than just "cops".

Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 10, 2015, 03:27:20 PM5) Eliminates crimcode abuse and mistakes. No more awkward mass-clanning before city RPTs involving Soldier NPCs to keep us all from getting killed by soldiers (especially those who really shouldn't). No more soldier-PCs getting in trouble because they're subduing people out of the Gaj, into a hovel to get murdered. See your friend getting grabbed by soldiers? Fight back! Soldiers, see that sniveling shit at the bar? Kill him!

Codedly difficult I'm sure, but next time there are riots (Tek help us all) turning the crim code off in the city would be awesome.  Would like to see Privates in the AoD maybe given more leeway in metting out some form of justice.  Just means the folks granting that promotion need to be sure.  Also would need monitoring to avoid abuse similar to if crim code was completed turned off or suddenly every private has their own murder-death-kill squad of giants to kill anyone they grapple.

I can get this experience by going to play other hack and slash muds that already let you fight anywhere all of the time. Not for me.

I'd like to see the prevalence of NPC soldiers reduced in certain areas of the city, at least for a trial run, basically for the reasons stated in the well-thought-out OP.

Quote from: valeria on August 10, 2015, 05:32:12 PM
I'd like to see the prevalence of NPC soldiers reduced in certain areas of the city, at least for a trial run, basically for the reasons stated in the well-thought-out OP.

I agree.

Less soldiers would be keen.

I would like for unarmed combat out in the open to be legal period so long as no one is killed or weapons drawn or property is damaged.
I mean I seem to recall there is a brawl script entailing someone busting a mug over someone's head? How is that more soft-core than punching them in the face with your fist?

Backstab is already basically a death sentence when used properly. This isn't really a necessary code change. We laready have almost 0 crimcode at night.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 10, 2015, 03:27:20 PM
4) The AoD clan will have more relevance in the City. Right now, every duty they can perform in the City can be done as well or better by NPCs. Make it so people can't rely on the pop-up soldiers for protection and it'll start paying a lot more to have a few soldier friends to come bail you out. The AoD will also get more chance to practice their skills if they can attack people down in the City without sentencing them to Death-by-half-giant.

It's interesting to imagine a setup where NPC soldiers quietly become inactive or go off-duty when PC soldiers are logged on.

Or their crim-code response changed to (only) guarding exits on the optimal path to the labyrinth, rather than going for a subdue.

As long as there is solid support for vNPC crowding and recognition of assailants, etc etc. No stupid shit like arrows through and into crowded areas either.

I would prefer to reduce the extremity of crimcode first, but BadSkeelz's idea for removing it entirely sounds interesting.

I would like the crimcode adjusted to allow more well timed and placed public assassinations, anything that moves the violent criminal threat away from desert/labyrinth/apartment only. A good ole bazaar shanking every now and then would be worth this IMO. As it stands your survival chance of spitting in the face of a PC templar is higher than punching a beggar at sun-up.

Kind of relevant.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6eeFyVy6WY

I'm good with removing all soldier Giants, and a few soldier NPC's. There should be 1-2 soldiers around without overlapping patrols for every 10 or so rooms, which is pretty close to how it is now, but there's hotspots where a bunch tend to group together that creat their own little death-zones. A soldier should pass through a given room once every 10-15 minutes, basically giving you chances for daytime crimes, but putting soldiers in between you for escape.

Fewer soldiers would just mean people could blithely kill the ones that remain.

That would be easily fixed by bumping up their skills and off/def. Also making them low-medium strength so they can't insta-gib you, and giving them clubs. That would be helpful too.

That problem might already be addressed by existing code...

Really? Ive seen nobles murdered in public and watch the criminals get away more than once. I think Crimecode is fine. You should able to be in public without serious fear or getting murdered at the bar. Which by the way..people do still get murdered in bars.

...why don't you guys just spend more time outside the city where this already exists?

Just curious.  Everyone seems to be all in favor of the instant-karma-playground, but only in the safety of the walls, or...you just want everyone packed together for it, or...what?  I've alluded numerous times to when hunting outside the city put you in the reach of anyone who decided to raid (which seemed to be most people), but I don't really understand why there's this sudden 'crimcode is bad' idea, when we can't even get people to agree that raiding scenes are a good thing?

Quote from: Armaddict on August 11, 2015, 01:11:57 AM
...why don't you guys just spend more time outside the city where this already exists?

Just curious.  Everyone seems to be all in favor of the instant-karma-playground, but only in the safety of the walls, or...you just want everyone packed together for it, or...what?  I've alluded numerous times to when hunting outside the city put you in the reach of anyone who decided to raid (which seemed to be most people), but I don't really understand why there's this sudden 'crimcode is bad' idea, when we can't even get people to agree that raiding scenes are a good thing?

Because your hardscrabble dude on a mount is boring.

Seriously though, this isn't about raiding. This is about being able to settle scores or just engage in ultraviolence within sensible limits in the City, and not this quais-Tuluk "play nice except behind closed doors" thing we got now.

Great counter points raised, though. I voted for "remove all" because extreme positions are easier to start at, but I like the ideas for how to scale back the guards somewhat. I don't want an anything goes slaughter fest, but it shouldn't be a suicide mission to draw an axe and smash it into someone's face.

I'm just as home at the moment so don't really give a shit about the GDB.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxPpaDt9teI

Sooo...labyrinth?

Edit:  Basically...still standing by that these things you're talking about already exist.  But people say they don't like it, not with words, but with lack of play in that area.

Quote from: Armaddict on August 11, 2015, 04:55:52 PM
Sooo...labyrinth?

Edit:  Basically...still standing by that these things you're talking about already exist.  But people say they don't like it, not with words, but with lack of play in that area.

I think the idea was to create another arena for Murder (the city), or at least make Murder a little easier in that arena.

Quote from: nauta on August 11, 2015, 05:34:32 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on August 11, 2015, 04:55:52 PM
Sooo...labyrinth?

Edit:  Basically...still standing by that these things you're talking about already exist.  But people say they don't like it, not with words, but with lack of play in that area.

I think the idea was to create another arena for Murder (the city), or at least make Murder a little easier in that arena.

Right, but what I'm saying is that while it sounds well and good, the places that already have similar scenarios seem to push away players, not draw them in.  It's great that people want to be able to react to a guy saying 'fuck you' by outright attacking him in the streets, but the fact of the matter is that Tektolnes is a despot who doesn't like a disorderly city for whatever reasons.  I'm alright with the idea of less soldiers, but don't think every joe shmoe should be able to just get away with murder either.  People who want to get around criminal code without learning criminal code is...irritating.

Study patrol routes.  Find opportunity spots.  Learn how things interact.  And use it.  Like a criminal should.

I would like to see crim-code have a percentage chance to not 'stick' based on what crime is being committed, and if possible, the social status of the victim in the location in question.  

How do we create these social status values?  Items and racial values!  Basically every clan and social status comes with some item to declare it to the world at large.  These items can have coded social status values attached to them that offers more crim-code protection while you're wearing them.  They shouldn't stack, but instead choose the highest item on you as your social status value.  This code could be used for a lot more than just crim-code, but this is probably the biggest opportunity area for it.

Mathematically speaking, crim-code triggers could look something like this:

If(1d100 + {victim's high social status affecting item} + {racial modifier} +  {crime modifier}) >= 100) then crim-code is activated.

Here are some example values to plug into the formula:

Human:  +40
Half-giant:  +30
Dwarf: +30
Elf: +20
Desert Elf:  +10
Half Elf:  +10

-----

Borsail Signet Ring: +60
Kadian Family Signet Ring: +40
Oash Junior Aide Cloak: +20
Kadian Hunter Uniform:  +15
Byn Aba: +5


-----

Steal:  +0
Assault:  +35


Example 1:  Unaffiliated human

40% chance of triggering crim-code when someone is caught stealing from them, 75% chance versus assault.  Being human gives you some modicum of protection in Allanak, but being a nobody, you can't really rely on it.


Example 2:  Half-breed Byn runner

15% chance of triggering crim-code when someone is caught stealing from them, 50% chance versus assault.  Chances are, they're not going to get much help from the NPC/Virtual law enforcement for theft.  They're aware of who just tries to rob them, but they'll have to report it to a PC or take matters in their own hands if they want justice.  As for assault, it's a coin toss on whether or not anyone will give a damn to help.


Example 3:  Human Oash Junior aide

60% chance of triggering crim-code when someone is caught stealing from them, 95% chance versus assault.  Most of the time, the law will respond to someone trying to steal from an Oashi aide, but not always.  Of course, reporting the crime might prove successful.  If a fight breaks out however, help almost certainly will be forthcoming.


Example 4:  Human Borsail Noble

100% chance of triggering crim-code when someone is caught stealing from them, 135% chance versus assault.  If you get caught, there will be a response.



Some abuse is possible (an elf wearing a noble's signet ring) but since it only provides defense, not offense, the abuse is pretty limited.  There are also cool things that can be built on top of this kind of system, such as brands/marks that might have negative modifiers on future crim-code calculations.  A criminal with a brand or marking, might now have a negative crim-code item on their character which reduces or removes the probability of them receiving help from the law in the future.  This could be a lasting and real punishment for continuously being on the wrong side of the law, or it could be issued for other reasons that are completely unfair.  There might even be opportunities for magickal, psionic, or other non-magickal effects that create permanent or temporary negative crim-code modifiers on people, or in certain areas, for all kinds of creative uses.

Sure, a system like this would take a lot of work, but honestly any tweaks to crim-code are going to take a lot of work.  This seems to be (from my limited perspective) a realistic implementation as you're basically just attaching a Yes/No trigger on whether existing crim-code is activated or not, rather than reworking the entire system.

There's something to be said for people feeling reasonably safe going AFK after the dogs knock something over or whatever.  Especially in a game with permadeath!

Quote from: wizturbo on August 11, 2015, 07:53:25 PM
I would like to see crim-code have a percentage chance to not 'stick' based on what crime is being committed, and if possible, the social status of the victim in the location in question.  

Exists, but maybe not in exactly the way you specify

The prevalence of guard NPCs, especially in Red Storm, is ludicrously over-prevalent. It's beyond stupid. Allanak has way too many half-giant guards as well. Should be 5 humans for every half-giant, not the opposite.

I can get behind things that makes conflict WITH soldiers more prevalent.

Less half-giants and such.  In the absence of an external war to keep the Arm of the Dragon occupied (which has been notoriously hard to do over the years, coming in short bursts aside from during the Rebellion era), I'd rather see criminals actually able to target soldiers and fight soldiers, and thus more thugs able to commit their crimes.

If you're a warrior, with a fairly minimal time investment in training, you can probably pwn the soldier NPCs unless they dogpile you in a group of 3 or more.

If you're a sneaky-type, you should probably think about maxing out your stealth skills before you go crime-committin', especially given how easy it is to max them out.

If you're the sort who just wants to go out and fuck with people without having to put any work into it, well...tough shit.

Quote from: Synthesis on August 12, 2015, 12:39:27 AM
If you're a warrior, with a fairly minimal time investment in training, you can probably pwn the soldier NPCs unless they dogpile you in a group of 3 or more.

If you're a sneaky-type, you should probably think about maxing out your stealth skills before you go crime-committin', especially given how easy it is to max them out.

If you're the sort who just wants to go out and fuck with people without having to put any work into it, well...tough shit.

This is true, and a little known fact. I've had an elf assassin with barely a couple days play time kill a half-giant guard...10+ years ago. But there's still way too many of them wandering around.

The omniscient nature of the crimcode is what I'd really like to see fixed.

STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM! DIDN'T YOU STEAL A PIECE OF FRUIT FROM AN ELF ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE CITY?

DIE!

..unless there's like some sort of psionic shortwave radio all AoD members are tuned into.

Quote from: manonfire on August 12, 2015, 06:48:55 AM
The omniscient nature of the crimcode is what I'd really like to see fixed.

STOP RIGHT THERE, CRIMINAL SCUM! DIDN'T YOU STEAL A PIECE OF FRUIT FROM AN ELF ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE CITY?

DIE!

..unless there's like some sort of psionic shortwave radio all AoD members are tuned into.

A slow spread of a wanted criminal would be nice.  Some recursive algorithm with a time delay that allows each soldier to determine if and when they hear about it.  Word of mouth/way etc...Also, maybe based off the idea presented earlier by Wizturbo, each soldier would be able to determine if they care.  AOD PC's would also be included in this trail.  The criminal could now try and outrun the word of the activity.  How about bribing soldiers off their routes too?  Spreading them out?

Wizturbo's idea would be pretty cool too for those who have acquired disguises.  Have an AOD cloak?  Better chance of success.

Some of this could be done with help from the Imm's, obviously, but some hard coded help would be nice.

Olafson

One thought I had related to this:

It'd be nice if the system allowed for your criminal to interact more with the AoD PCs.  At present, it seems that the crimcode sort of forces your hand.  For instance, in order to avoid all those nasty giants, you pretty much have to max sneak/hide and get back to the rinth or somewhere safe like that.  But that also means you have to avoid the AoD PCs too - if you unhide or whatever to taunt them a bit or chat (while wanted) in will come the wombo-combo team of crimbimbal bashers.

I do agree with some of the voices here that the current system does allow for murder within the city, although the risk is pretty high for the reward, which is why it probably doesn't happen much.  But my main concern is that it just doesn't seem to allow for RP opportunities while doing that murdering.  For instance, in the desert or the rinth, you could potentially have a pretty prolonged fight or whatever, with a lot of opportunities for a chase.  Inside the city, you pretty much only have the daggers-in-the-dark option.  (I have a similar fuss with STEAL, which I brought up a while ago.)

One crazy thought I had would be for there to be two crimcodes: one for people with low karma and one for people with high karma, the latter of which would be basically no crimcode, the trust being on the player to not abuse the situation.

Quote from: nauta on August 12, 2015, 10:52:45 AM

One crazy thought I had would be for there to be two crimcodes: one for people with low karma and one for people with high karma, the latter of which would be basically no crimcode, the trust being on the player to not abuse the situation.

Speaking as someone with no karma, I'm not sure that kind of segregation of players sounds all that great. You get enough benefits as a high karma player in the amount of characters you can play.

"Yea, the crimcode totally ignores that PC, must be a 7 karma player."

No thanks :P

Quote from: Armaddict on August 11, 2015, 04:55:52 PM
Sooo...labyrinth?

Edit:  Basically...still standing by that these things you're talking about already exist.  But people say they don't like it, not with words, but with lack of play in that area.

I've seen the Labyrinth, east side, jumping at times (I was actually a part of it), last year. It might not be that they don't like it, but that they don't know how to survive there... that and possible IC considerations that change over time. For the Labyrinth to work, you can't just treat every PC you see like a disposable commodity. Sure, knock them out, take their stuff, threaten their families, enforce the frightening aspect, but, while sticking to the theme, try and be considerate of your fellow player's investment of time, effort, creaivity, and will (but only if they're FROM the rinth). When you PK another rinthi, you end a story, you end the conflict. Sure, it was efficient and effective, but if you do that enough, you start to, run out of people to play with. I mean, emote thoughtlessly stepping over the bloated remains of a child as you take a stroll through the alleys with someone else. Surely there are other means than irreversible and counter-productive code.

Quote from: nauta on August 12, 2015, 10:52:45 AM
It'd be nice if the system allowed for your criminal to interact more with the AoD PCs.  At present, it seems that the crimcode sort of forces your hand.

+1 ... I think if there were any direction I'd move the crimcode in, it would be in the direction of creating deeper interactions between arrester and arrestee PCs.

I'm not expecting anything like this to be implemented.  I'm not even sure if it's a good idea.  But it might be interesting if AoD PCs had an "arrest" or "pursue" command that simulated a coded chase through the streets.  It would be kinda like archery, in that you could use it across rooms:


> pursue elf east
You begin pursuing the bent-backed elf east of here.
(Type 'stop' to end the pursuit.)


They might be warned:


You notice the angry-looking soldier coming at you from the west.


Then you'd begin to automatically chase after the character (through lawful rooms only).  Every time the pursuit manages to move you into the same room as your target, you have a x% chance of trying to "grab" them.  If your target is sitting, you do nothing and the pursuit ends (they 'gave up').  Otherwise you have a y% chance of knocking them into a sit, and the pursuit ends.  Otherwise, you're in the same room as them and you can attempt a subdue.

y increases the longer you've been pursuing the target to reflect other soldiers noticing and helping you; so if your target pulls you along for 10 rooms, there's a good chance you're going to get the tackle on them.  If they quickly turn a corner into a no-law room, you're SOL and the pursuit code won't help you.

The whole thing would be largely automated, but the strategy would be to pursue someone when they are deep in law-room territory to improve your chances of getting them.

Quote from: Revenant on August 12, 2015, 01:54:54 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on August 11, 2015, 04:55:52 PM
Sooo...labyrinth?

Edit:  Basically...still standing by that these things you're talking about already exist.  But people say they don't like it, not with words, but with lack of play in that area.

I've seen the Labyrinth, east side, jumping at times (I was actually a part of it), last year. It might not be that they don't like it, but that they don't know how to survive there... that and possible IC considerations that change over time. For the Labyrinth to work, you can't just treat every PC you see like a disposable commodity. Sure, knock them out, take their stuff, threaten their families, enforce the frightening aspect, but, while sticking to the theme, try and be considerate of your fellow player's investment of time, effort, creaivity, and will (but only if they're FROM the rinth). When you PK another rinthi, you end a story, you end the conflict. Sure, it was efficient and effective, but if you do that enough, you start to, run out of people to play with. I mean, emote thoughtlessly stepping over the bloated remains of a child as you take a stroll through the alleys with someone else. Surely there are other means than irreversible and counter-productive code.

I'd like to say that I agree, but there aren't exactly a lot of people who are just running around mugging everyone they see.  It's a question of behavior.  In the alleys, threats are no small deal.  In the alleys, there are still politics at play.  Going around acting like a tough guy who tells everyone off may be their idea of enforcing the 'feel' of the labyrinth, but it's also blatantly disregarding their place in it.  Making enemies is bad.  Doubly so for people who live in a place where there's very little stopping enemies from acting.

In other words.  Even in PvP free zones, I wouldn't call the PvP rampant, but I would call the behavior of those not familiar with a PvP free zone often out of place with lawlessness.  You don't start off a hardcore badass there, you start off someone licking boots and getting friends, not enemies.  A lot of people misplay this, and then complain that their enemy took them out, which is really a very rational thing to do in a lawless area.  Otherwise you're just waiting for them to decide to get the jump on you instead.

However, point being is that complete removal of crimcode is not a viable option.  People like the crimcode, even when they say they don't, because it keeps their enemies on an even keel.  It allows them to continue to play the game the way they want to with at least a decent feeling of security (not a complete one).  This is shown in all those currently lawless areas.  Again, however, I do support actions that make it a bit less of a death warrant for there to be open engagements.  Particularly between criminals and soldiers.  Make the Arm PC's actually feel the need to patrol.  They're the ones fit for taking on PC criminals.  Make a templar with two half-giants more scary than Meleth's circle guards.  So on and so forth.  Cutting OUT crimcode is terribly not okay.  Cutting BACK crimcode is likely the best idea for creating new direct-conflict opportunities that people seem to thirst for.

Quote from: Armaddict on August 12, 2015, 06:29:52 PMCutting BACK crimcode is likely the best idea for creating new direct-conflict opportunities that people seem to thirst for.

While I do see some threads along this vein pretty regularly, I don't know if a lot of people actually thirst for this. I kind of suspect it's just a vocal minority.

When my PC is out in the wilderness and I could get jumped and murdered horribly at any moment. It's exciting in a way, but it's also nerve-wracking. I can't imagine I could ever play a PC that was out there all the time. If everywhere was like this, I simply don't think I would enjoy this game very much. I'd be too nervous. My PC would have to wear armor and have something wieldable all the time. All clothing objects for anyone not at invincible levels of combat skill would be obsolete. People would kill each other for insignificant reasons, just because they could.

In the current state I can go afk in a barroom without too much worry that I'll come back to the computer to find my beloved PC dead. If she likes, she can wear clothes and not have a sword drawn. If somebody murders her, it's probably something that took some forethought.

I like these things how they are. Whether everyone content with the status quo expresses it or not, I really, truly believe those people vastly outnumber their pro-free-murdering counterparts.

That's a good point.  Crim-code does reduce the stress level while playing in that area.  But there's a difference between violence related crim-code, and stealing related.  I think stealing crim-code protections being relaxed (at least against nobody commoner victims) would be positive for the game, whereas if you try to kill someone in the Gaj, it shouldn't be super easy to do.

Quote from: In Dreams on August 12, 2015, 07:22:08 PM

Quote from: Armaddict on August 12, 2015, 06:29:52 PMCutting BACK crimcode is likely the best idea for creating new direct-conflict opportunities that people seem to thirst for.

While I do see some threads along this vein pretty regularly, I don't know if a lot of people actually thirst for this. I kind of suspect it's just a vocal minority.

When my PC is out in the wilderness and I could get jumped and murdered horribly at any moment. It's exciting in a way, but it's also nerve-wracking. I can't imagine I could ever play a PC that was out there all the time. If everywhere was like this, I simply don't think I would enjoy this game very much. I'd be too nervous. My PC would have to wear armor and have something wieldable all the time. All clothing objects for anyone not at invincible levels of combat skill would be obsolete. People would kill each other for insignificant reasons, just because they could.

In the current state I can go afk in a barroom without too much worry that I'll come back to the computer to find my beloved PC dead. If she likes, she can wear clothes and not have a sword drawn. If somebody murders her, it's probably something that took some forethought.

I like these things how they are. Whether everyone content with the status quo expresses it or not, I really, truly believe those people vastly outnumber their pro-free-murdering counterparts.

I've spent like...thousands of hours in the desert, and the sort of crap you're describing never happens unless you're a noob magicker or you've previously pissed someone off.

I.e. it doesn't happen unless you pretty much deserve it.

My biggest beef with the crim code in its current incarnation is the instantaneous response time and the way petty crimes can sometimes result in a massive NPC overreaction. I don't mind the number of soldiers around, I just think that picking a pocket should result in less of an NPC response than murdering someone. Unfortunately, Armageddon's NPC combat code seems to be pretty much all or nothing. It'd be great if there was some system that would go "oh, this criminal already has 4 soldiers chasing him, he really doesn't need any more" or whatever number.

My ideal dream that is likely not to be a coded reality is for the crim code to treat armed and unarmed combat differently, too. The brawl code helped with this, but it's got its own limitations and can't be used everywhere. I wish soldiers didn't feel the need to rush in and ARREST THE SHIT OUT OF EVERYBODY IMMEDIATELY anytime a fistfight breaks out. It'd be neato if the crimcode could somehow be activated only if someone was injured past a certain threshold. You could beat the snot of someone to settle your differences without doing it in an apartment or bar and so long as you didn't start to murder them the soldiers would live and let live.

Sure there are ways around the crim code as is. You can train up stealth skills or be a combat guild that can kill soldiers (although bear in mind PC templars treat those NPC soldier deaths pretty seriously in my experience, it's one thing to run from the law and another thing entirely to run from the law and leave a trail of corpses). But I'm not talking about assassinating nobles or fighting great piles of NPC guards. I'd just like to be able to engage in a little casual violence without finding myself #1 on every single city soldier's most wanted list.

These are the changes I would like to see:

No more half-giant NPC on the street, only in important locations such as the gates, noble quarters, or templar quarters, etc.
Don't replace the half-giant NPC with other NPC, since right now it feels like there is always a soldier within shouting distance.

While it shouldn't be open murder season on newbies and merchants within cities, right now the amount of risk to your character involved in commiting even simple crimes is way to high. By the time you train sneak/hide to mitigate those risks a bit, the rewards/risk of crime vs time investment in your character rarely make it seem seem worth doing.  

It would also be nice if soldier NPCs reported the sdesc or cloak style of a criminal (whichever is visible) and the crime to private+ PCs, because unless the criminal PC lands in jail, investigating crimes is really difficult.  I say from my admittedly short tenure in the Legions.  I'd like to see more crime investigation and criminal pursuit in the hands of PCs, not necessarily just a giant free for all in the low-class areas of Allanak.

Quote from: valeria on August 13, 2015, 08:40:28 AM
It would also be nice if soldier NPCs reported the sdesc or cloak style of a criminal (whichever is visible) and the crime to private+ PCs, because unless the criminal PC lands in jail, investigating crimes is really difficult.  I say from my admittedly short tenure in the Legions.  I'd like to see more crime investigation and criminal pursuit in the hands of PCs, not necessarily just a giant free for all in the low-class areas of Allanak.

More investigation would be nice, sadly, I've seen numerous times, simply being suspicious of someone = death. You don't even have to commit a crime, someone else could, and you get the blame... it's even happened to my human characters. It basically amounts to a delusional, paranoid, grandiose amount of fingerpointing over things that haven't even happened... now why do we need to do this? If the suspicions are severe enough, the AoD Sergeant can go to a thiefy type or gemmer and say, hey, Lord Templar so and so wants to know more about this crime that took place, I'd like you to spy on these suspects, then pick the most suspicious one, and keep eyes on them at all times. If something got stolen, what? If someone failed a steal attempt? So what, bad guys got away. There's no need to raise a quarter of the town over what basically amounts to nothing.

I'd rather see more crimes not investigated at all.  Real criminals, that "the powers that be" want captured, they get investigated by PC's all the time already.  The rest should be forgotten.

No one should care if Joe Grebber's coin purse is lifted, unless Joe Grebber convinces someone of importance they should take an interest.

The odd thing about being an AoD PC is that Staff very explicitly tell you that you are not a police officer, that investigating, interrogating, and punishing crime without direct Templar oversight is a big no-no. That you're soldiers, whatever that means. The rules are a bit relaxed for officers, but even then you're not supposed to drag people into the cells of your own accord.

Fortunately, considering suspected criminals as volunteers for the "How many hits does it take me to kill someone?" game is not against clan policy.

This is what I was getting at with my original #4 bulletin - all Soldier (N)PCs are allowed to do is subdue wanted, incriminated criminals and drag them to the Cells for interrogation and punishment by a Templar (N)PC. Since soldier PCs cannot know that you lifted a coin purse 20 minutes ago from some schmuck across the city, nor automatically subdue wanted incriminated criminals as soon as you share a room (much less recognize them through the new cloak and mask they're now wearing), the NPC guards do their job 'better.'

So I like the idea of soldier PCs getting alerts if Sdesc has assaulted someone. They already do if you do certain grave magickal crimes within the City, though the alert message is so abrupt, metagamey, undocumented and poorly worded that it usually just produces confusion. But I think the larger role of soldier-PCs in the game itself needs examination and possible reworking. Which is apparently happening.

Half-giant soldier PCs should be around expressly for the purpose of subduing or fighting other half-giants. It feels a bit awkward to see a gang of six standing around, and somehow not falling into some half-giant cycle of absurd, devolving mimicry.

Quote from: Revenant on August 13, 2015, 05:41:00 PM
It feels a bit awkward to see a gang of six standing around, and somehow not falling into some half-giant cycle of absurd, devolving mimicry.

Having a bunch of half-giant soldiers instead of human ones is a bit jarring, I agree.  They shouldn't be as prevalent in comparison to the human population of soldiers that you see in most areas of the game.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzDgaGTARqE

All "interrogative" duties are now to be fulfilled by the citizens of the Labyrinth, who are trained now as special investigators. Anyone caught committing a crime of murder or above (ungemmed practice of magick, magick outside the Quarter, touching/stealing from nobility) will carry with it an almost-immediate knife to the back, causing paralysis.

Murder occurs after the ding.

Soldiers are now relegated to keeping the physical peace and, given their propensity for "rough circle yeh?" are now trained to step in and rescue the assaulted. If they aren't able, they are to step in and put a bone sword in the other person's rear end, over and over again until they submit.

Quote from: Riev on August 14, 2015, 12:03:49 AM
they are to step in and put a bone sword in the other person's rear end, over and over again until they submit.

Kinky

Quote from: Is Friday on August 10, 2015, 03:51:05 PM
I'm not for removal, but reducing prevalence would be great.

This!  Right here!  THIS THIS THIS!!!!

Alleys?  No crime code.  Dusk?  No crime code in the pretty damn busy streets because people are RUSHING to safety.

Breeds, gicks, sharps?  Soldier grabs hold of anyone assaulting them (without deadly weapons) for an hour or two, shaking occasionally, yelling questions...or until offered a reasonable bribe.

Closer to the noble quarter or their bars/tea rooms?  Maybe a little harsher.  But not instant WANTED for the least offence.

The concept is incredibly flexible.  I expect, being a non-coder, that the code is a lot more difficult to work around.  But it would be soooooo nice.

Someone or someones mentioned above the idea of unarmed combat not setting off the crimcode. I love that idea for places in the commoner quarter and in the Gaj. But I wonder if it's really a possibility with the code we have. Is it?

I remember playing a brief leadership stint in the Jaxa Pah and got tired of the role because we were struggling to find anything to do other than assassination work. I failed to get any politics/economy going in the 'rinth.

I didn't want that to be my primary interaction with the rest of Allanak (I was OK with it being secondary).

Killing was easy for us too - we could wander off and solo pop anyone in the street day or night and sneak back to the 'rinth without fail. It wasn't even fun.

Allanak really isn't very safe.

Personally - I think PC's are able to reach too much coded power for a non-crime code Allanak where in some other RPI's 2 Veterans beat 1 Expert and 2 Newbies beat 1 Veteran but in Armageddon 1 Expert can beat several Veterans and limitless newbies.

Less HG NPC soldiers should definitely be a thing though.

Quote from: Hot_Dancer on August 19, 2015, 09:18:53 PM
Personally - I think PC's are able to reach too much coded power for a non-crime code Allanak where in some other RPI's 2 Veterans beat 1 Expert and 2 Newbies beat 1 Veteran but in Armageddon 1 Expert can beat several Veterans and limitless newbies.

I find this more variable than conventional wisdom would dictate.

For one thing, a newbie warrior is virtually always going to stand a puncher's chance putting the hurt on any other class in the city. Heck, a completely newb warrior has a puncher's chance of putting some militia NPCs.

Give him a couple days played in the Byn, a decent stat roll, and a head that isn't completely up his ass, and he can probably butcher most rinthi elf assassins and burglars. If someone is an aide, noble, merchant or unprepared gicker walking around in pretty clothes, then sure, they're meat. Your elf assassin or burglar, with some decent combat training, is going to eat them alive.

I've seen warriors that were great in the sparring circle go out and get butchered by critters that could barely faze a mounted ranger. I've seen great rangers get clocked by newbie warriors.

In my experience, 'experts', 'veterans' and 'newbs' are fairly fluid, with a great many factors determining victory.

There is however, a tier beyond. Some rare, few characters at any given time, are beyond 'expert'. They've lived long enough to develop insanely high offense and defense, and likely combine it with powerful allies, the best gear, and maybe one or two tricky items to give them an edge. It takes a very long time to get there, though. 40-50 days play time is a significant chunk of your real life. Every game in my Steam library from the last 5 years doesn't approach ~1200 hours.

And yet, those characters can still die quite easily. A gicker with a couple days playtime. A lucky arrow, or poison. Falling down a hole. Subdued by a half-giant. A double-hitter from a bahamet popping out of its shell. Critically bashed by a spider and then another comes in. A critical unavoidable 1-20 chance to drop your weapon, even with maxed disarm, when reversing an opponent...not realizing your weapon dropped in the combat spam and getting reeled by a dwarf. They're actually quite fragile.

What resilience they have is well deserved, and frankly, a poor investment on time spent, compared to any gicker class. Unless you're some crazy X-D gicker with off/defense that would shame a warrior, you can probably max one out, without even trying, in a month or two. if you have even rudimentary familiarity with the system.

Crimcode ruins conflict. It's simple.

Quote from: absurdist on August 24, 2015, 06:10:18 PM
Crimcode ruins conflict. It's simple.

Truth.  Also a necessary simplicity.  Because it demotes mindless conflict.

The moment the city enters a state where you can walk into a tavern and kill someone because fuck you is the moment cities become meaningless as bastions of civilization in the Known world.

As noted by several others, crimcode -is- very possible to circumvent, to the point that for some people it's even easy.  The complete removal of it because someone doesn't want to take the time to plan things out, and just wants to promote wanton violence as the best way for conflict to be brought about, is very shortsighted and in my opinion, an idea brought about by tunnel-vision.

I am, however, all for the pulling back of half-giant soldiers, so that Arm/Criminal skirmishes are real, so that half-giants not in the Arm are a big deal, and so that PC soldiers have more reasons to actually patrol (because I assume with soldiers less able to kill you, crime will also take a step up).

Quote from: Armaddict on August 24, 2015, 06:23:22 PMAs noted by several others, crimcode -is- very possible to circumvent, to the point that for some people it's even easy.  The complete removal of it because someone doesn't want to take the time to plan things out, and just wants to promote wanton violence as the best way for conflict to be brought about, is very shortsighted and in my opinion, an idea brought about by tunnel-vision.

Agree with you on about everything except this.

Yes, it is easy to circumvent. But I for one am tired of conflict being turned into a series of petty assassinations instead of something that could be sustained and nourished, be it through wanton violence or said skirmishes. I'm not talking about magickers running around and fireballing entire taverns. Otherwise, wanton violence is realistic. It's just not convenient in a game where an experienced character two-shots anyone with half their playtime. So to avoid turning this into a debate about the combat code...

I think we can all agree on less (or no) half-giant soldiers. And why in the world is Red Storm so heavily bogged down in guards? At least give the 'wild west' theme a chance.

Sometimes the crimcode even fecks the police themselves.
/oldwound

I really don't think the crime code is dissuading anyone from doing anything conflict-related, except for noobs (both PC and player), warriors, magickers, and ranger schlubs who didn't take stealthy extended subguilds.

I mean, honestly, if anything, it's the combat-training code that prevents people from starting shit, because it takes infinity+1 hours to get good enough to actually REK someone if you aren't a HG, and by the time you get to that point, you have so much time invested that a) virtually all conflict is trivial and b) you have vastly more to lose than you have to gain in almost any conflict-related scenario.

I've gotta agree with Synthesis on this one.

Quote from: Delirium on August 24, 2015, 10:03:03 PM
I've gotta agree with Synthesis on this one.

...like agreeing with me is a CHORE or something.

Oh my god, even a broken clock is right twice a day?  Is that what you're saying?

;)

About the only thing I can think of I would change about it is to make it so becoming wanted in one part of the city doesn't make you wanted throughout the city. Break it up into "law zones". You become wanted for a crime in the bazaar, then your presence will trigger soldiers in the bazaar rooms and maybe nearby rooms around it until arrested or your crim flag expires. Outside of those rooms, there are so many people and you are primarily being looked for in the area the crime was committed that they don't necessarily spot you or are "looking" for you.
If you have a crim flag in one "law zone" and you earn another one in a separate "law zone", your original flag duration starts over as now more are looking for you. If you have three or more flags from different areas at once, then you are wanted city-wide.

Quote from: Synthesis on August 24, 2015, 09:50:07 PM
I mean, honestly, if anything, it's the combat-training code that prevents people from starting shit, because it takes infinity+1 hours to get good enough to actually REK someone if you aren't a HG, and by the time you get to that point, you have so much time invested that a) virtually all conflict is trivial and b) you have vastly more to lose than you have to gain in almost any conflict-related scenario.

Well said. The surest way to living a long time in Armageddon, is having others know you are a long-lived PC, or even giving them the impression of it. Then they won't want to mess with you, and will assume that you're fine with a 'live and let live' policy of mutually protecting our investments.

Crimcode is what it is, to some extent. I'd be happy with just some intrepid staffer (Cavaticus, maybe?) going through and deleting a few HG NPCs here and there. I get the feeling like there are 2x-3x as many of them, as when I last played, as if they're multiplying somehow through some code bug...as certain objects or even mounts have been doing, lately.

If NPCs are meant to be a mirror of the VNPC population, then we should have 4 human guards to every HG guard, at a minimum.

Quote from: jhunter on August 24, 2015, 10:12:31 PM
About the only thing I can think of I would change about it is to make it so becoming wanted in one part of the city doesn't make you wanted throughout the city. Break it up into "law zones". You become wanted for a crime in the bazaar, then your presence will trigger soldiers in the bazaar rooms and maybe nearby rooms around it until arrested or your crim flag expires. Outside of those rooms, there are so many people and you are primarily being looked for in the area the crime was committed that they don't necessarily spot you or are "looking" for you.
If you have a crim flag in one "law zone" and you earn another one in a separate "law zone", your original flag duration starts over as now more are looking for you. If you have three or more flags from different areas at once, then you are wanted city-wide.

GTA crimcode plz.

Quote from: Armaddict on August 24, 2015, 10:17:56 PM

Quote from: jhunter on August 24, 2015, 10:12:31 PM
About the only thing I can think of I would change about it is to make it so becoming wanted in one part of the city doesn't make you wanted throughout the city. Break it up into "law zones". You become wanted for a crime in the bazaar, then your presence will trigger soldiers in the bazaar rooms and maybe nearby rooms around it until arrested or your crim flag expires. Outside of those rooms, there are so many people and you are primarily being looked for in the area the crime was committed that they don't necessarily spot you or are "looking" for you.
If you have a crim flag in one "law zone" and you earn another one in a separate "law zone", your original flag duration starts over as now more are looking for you. If you have three or more flags from different areas at once, then you are wanted city-wide.

GTA crimcode plz.

Oh man, it would be hilarious if you could put the "wanted" stars in your prompt.

Quote from: Synthesis on August 24, 2015, 09:50:07 PM
I really don't think the crime code is dissuading anyone from doing anything conflict-related, except for noobs (both PC and player), warriors, magickers, and ranger schlubs who didn't take stealthy extended subguilds.

I mean, honestly, if anything, it's the combat-training code that prevents people from starting shit, because it takes infinity+1 hours to get good enough to actually REK someone if you aren't a HG, and by the time you get to that point, you have so much time invested that a) virtually all conflict is trivial and b) you have vastly more to lose than you have to gain in almost any conflict-related scenario.

Yeah, that's why I deliberately avoided discussing the combat code in my post.

If we want to change something, lets make it feasible, is what I'm going after.

Quote from: absurdist on August 24, 2015, 11:27:03 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on August 24, 2015, 09:50:07 PM
I really don't think the crime code is dissuading anyone from doing anything conflict-related, except for noobs (both PC and player), warriors, magickers, and ranger schlubs who didn't take stealthy extended subguilds.

I mean, honestly, if anything, it's the combat-training code that prevents people from starting shit, because it takes infinity+1 hours to get good enough to actually REK someone if you aren't a HG, and by the time you get to that point, you have so much time invested that a) virtually all conflict is trivial and b) you have vastly more to lose than you have to gain in almost any conflict-related scenario.

Yeah, that's why I deliberately avoided discussing the combat code in my post.

If we want to change something, lets make it feasible, is what I'm going after.

Feasible is skilling up sneak and hide.

That's it.

Literally all you have to do is a) pick a guild with sneak and hide or a subguild with sneak and hide; b) skill up; c) don't do shit in the IMMEDIATE vicinity of soldiers.  Like...it ain't rocket science.

Sure, if you want to be a pussy about it.

Quote from: Synthesis on August 24, 2015, 11:39:08 PM

Quote from: absurdist on August 24, 2015, 11:27:03 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on August 24, 2015, 09:50:07 PM
I really don't think the crime code is dissuading anyone from doing anything conflict-related, except for noobs (both PC and player), warriors, magickers, and ranger schlubs who didn't take stealthy extended subguilds.

I mean, honestly, if anything, it's the combat-training code that prevents people from starting shit, because it takes infinity+1 hours to get good enough to actually REK someone if you aren't a HG, and by the time you get to that point, you have so much time invested that a) virtually all conflict is trivial and b) you have vastly more to lose than you have to gain in almost any conflict-related scenario.

Yeah, that's why I deliberately avoided discussing the combat code in my post.

If we want to change something, lets make it feasible, is what I'm going after.

Feasible is skilling up sneak and hide.

That's it.

Literally all you have to do is a) pick a guild with sneak and hide or a subguild with sneak and hide; b) skill up; c) don't do shit in the IMMEDIATE vicinity of soldiers.  Like...it ain't rocket science.

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/wibd.gif)

Yes, I already addressed how easy the crimcode is to avoid. Be a sneak and twink assassinate people, etc. - Just because it's possible to circumvent does not mean that crimcode itself is not inane. That's like responding 'QQ noob, be the change' to every complaint or alternative suggestion. People here aren't just complaining about pickpockets being shit. They're complaining about the possibilities that crimecode cuts down. IE: petty street fights, duels, fistfights, all out clan warfare in the streets

You -can- have all-out clan warfare in the streets, as long as your homies can sneak back to the clan hall afterwards.

Quote from: absurdist on August 25, 2015, 01:19:10 AMThey're complaining about the possibilities that crimecode cuts down. IE: petty street fights, duels, fistfights, all out clan warfare in the streets

I think the point being made is that people wouldn't do this anyway, because it takes like 1000 game hours to get a PC that can fight well and about 10 seconds to lose that PC in a streetfight.

Besides that, there's not even really enough good reason for clans to do warfare with one another that I can really see. Removing the crimcode would just lead to people making up stupid reasons to kill each other, and them being able to do it without consequence.

Solution: Make skill gains easier across the board? Less time spent grinding, less worry about losing everything. More people willing to actually do risky/exciting things with their characters for the sake of story. Want character variance? That's what stats are for.

Quote from: In Dreams on August 25, 2015, 06:49:52 AM
I think the point being made is that people wouldn't do this anyway, because it takes like 1000 game hours to get a PC that can fight well and about 10 seconds to lose that PC in a streetfight.

Besides that, there's not even really enough good reason for clans to do warfare with one another that I can really see. Removing the crimcode would just lead to people making up stupid reasons to kill each other, and them being able to do it without consequence.

I'd risk my 1000 hour pc. I'm not everyone of course, but I'm also not so special. I'm also fine with consequences.

Quote from: absurdist on August 25, 2015, 01:19:10 AMThey're complaining about the possibilities that crimecode cuts down. IE: petty street fights, duels, fistfights, all out clan warfare in the streets

This is exactly what I've been trying to say.

Quote from: Barzalene on August 25, 2015, 09:38:24 AM
I'm not everyone of course, but I'm also not so special.

This is a lie.   ;)

Quote from: Barzalene on August 25, 2015, 09:38:24 AM
I'm also fine with consequences.

Proof.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 25, 2015, 08:55:11 AM
Solution: Make skill gains easier across the board? Less time spent grinding, less worry about losing everything. More people willing to actually do risky/exciting things with their characters for the sake of story. Want character variance? That's what stats are for.

Another idea in this vein would be to make 2v1 fights much more advantageous for the team of 2.  That way, buddying up with another 5-day warrior would serve as an effective (and probably more interesting) alternative to solo-grinding for 50 days.

Realistically, being attacked by multiple opponents is no joke (getting immobilized or hit in the back of the head is going to wreck your day -- I don't care if you're Bruce Lee).  I feel like two committed 5-day warriors should pose a serious threat to a 100-day warrior, even if the 100-day warrior would blick either of the 5-day warriors in a duel.

Just a thought.

Quote from: In Dreams on August 25, 2015, 06:49:52 AM

Quote from: absurdist on August 25, 2015, 01:19:10 AMThey're complaining about the possibilities that crimecode cuts down. IE: petty street fights, duels, fistfights, all out clan warfare in the streets

I think the point being made is that people wouldn't do this anyway, because it takes like 1000 game hours to get a PC that can fight well and about 10 seconds to lose that PC in a streetfight.

Besides that, there's not even really enough good reason for clans to do warfare with one another that I can really see. Removing the crimcode would just lead to people making up stupid reasons to kill each other, and them being able to do it without consequence.

Yeah, I agree. It's definitely a combination of the two. Archaic crimecode that cuts down on possible conflict/roleplay and a combat system that further reinforces the 'sit back and let them store' mentality. Clans don't give people a reason to fight, there is no struggle over resources or competition, etc. And most of this is coming from an old codebase/setting and doesn't have anything to do with the current staff. But it'd be very nice to see some changes.

Quote from: CodeMaster on August 25, 2015, 02:37:51 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 25, 2015, 08:55:11 AM
Solution: Make skill gains easier across the board? Less time spent grinding, less worry about losing everything. More people willing to actually do risky/exciting things with their characters for the sake of story. Want character variance? That's what stats are for.

Another idea in this vein would be to make 2v1 fights much more advantageous for the team of 2.  That way, buddying up with another 5-day warrior would serve as an effective (and probably more interesting) alternative to solo-grinding for 50 days.

Realistically, being attacked by multiple opponents is no joke (getting immobilized or hit in the back of the head is going to wreck your day -- I don't care if you're Bruce Lee).  I feel like two committed 5-day warriors should pose a serious threat to a 100-day warrior, even if the 100-day warrior would blick either of the 5-day warriors in a duel.

Just a thought.

Agreed. I think other (since dead) RPIs have done this rather well without making combat a bore.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on August 25, 2015, 08:55:11 AM
Solution: Make skill gains easier across the board? Less time spent grinding, less worry about losing everything. More people willing to actually do risky/exciting things with their characters for the sake of story. Want character variance? That's what stats are for.

I would propose a better solution is to reinforce the value of not resorting to killing your enemy.  Sadly, because the usual result of not killing an enemy is that said enemy kills you... I'm not sure how that works out regularly. 

Making it easier to become proficient would remove any sense of risk to the potential griefer.  The slow grind, IMHO, is what stops many folks from putting their characters in positions where they are likely and willing to die unless it is really worth it.  This is realistic.  No slow grind and I have a one-four-shot of pulling off something "epic".  Why not just blitz through the iterations until you win?

I'd be all for a generic boost to guild primary skills at start-up (yes CGP allows for this already) but not so PK'ing is made less risky for the instigators.

Quote from: whitt on August 25, 2015, 02:56:06 PMThe slow grind, IMHO, is what stops many folks from putting their characters in positions where they are likely and willing to die unless it is really worth it.  This is realistic.  No slow grind and I have a one-four-shot of pulling off something "epic".  Why not just blitz through the iterations until you win?

It's far more convenient to simply ban the griefer (and can always rez casualties if the perpetrator is a blatant unsavory). Yes, past RPIs with more realistic combat systems have dealt with 'revenge characters' and they're dealt with pretty easily. More sensible than forcing everyone to go through this perceptual state of supposed realism where they never risk anything to make shit happen because there's no reason to take the risk in the first place, etc etc.

tldr; the slow grind is shit and 'muh risk-taking realism' is shit because at the end of the day this is a pretty stagnant game that has been running for around two decades and could use some life.

Reinforcing the value of not killing your enemy doesn't do shit, because this game's combat system is geared to exactly that. QUICK, BRUTAL DEATHS. Not with bone swords. With arrows, fireballs, extended weapons, poison daggers. One or two hit kills. (edit: this is where you either change the codebase/get rid of the slow grind OR embrace this aspect of the code and make it easier for characters to get into the action and make shit happen ie. removing crimecode, implement reasons for conflict, less grind, progressive storyline, etc.)

Quote from: absurdist on August 25, 2015, 03:24:22 PM
It's far more convenient to simply ban the griefer

Not simple or convenient.  As a griefer will gladly play on multiple accounts, IPs, or whatever is necessary all while happily explaining how foolish and/or pathetic staff attempts at banning are.

Quote from: absurdist on August 25, 2015, 03:24:22 PM
(and can always rez casualties if the perpetrator is a blatant unsavory)

And also requires staff intervention and a revision on Rez policies, investigation of "blatant unsavoriness", and etc...  If the player on the receiving end doesn't just up and quit without ever filing a complaint.

Quote from: absurdist on August 25, 2015, 03:24:22 PM
tldr; the slow grind is shit and 'muh risk-taking realism' is shit because at the end of the day this is a pretty stagnant game that has been running for around two decades and could use some life.

I'd rather have a game that'll still be around in another two decades.

That's implying that the combat system and grind are what have kept players around...

It boils down to a unique setting, stable code/server and active staff.

I'd argue that multi-accounting and griefers are more effective in Armageddon compared to other RPIs, given the complete lack of resurrections and the lack of conflict/scarcity of resources. Meanwhile, banning a butthurt bloodthirsty revenge account is really trivial. But yes, I would prefer staff intervention and staff involvement in story/conflict over what we have now. Unfortunately, that sort of involvement is what burns staffers out. Hence the stagnation that Arm has seen.

Quote from: absurdist on August 25, 2015, 06:06:56 PM
That's implying that the combat system and grind are what have kept players around...

Nope.  Implying that the lack of repetitive PK I'd expect in a hack 'n slash, therefore allowing for builder and social characters to survive is what has kept players around.

And since they're still around, there's plenty of targets for the folks that get their kicks out of playing against other players.

Only if we play something other than "warriors, magickers, and ranger schlubs who didn't take stealthy extended subguilds," at least in the cities.

Quote from: whitt on August 25, 2015, 06:18:02 PM

Quote from: absurdist on August 25, 2015, 06:06:56 PM
That's implying that the combat system and grind are what have kept players around...

Nope.  Implying that the lack of repetitive PK I'd expect in a hack 'n slash, therefore allowing for builder and social characters to survive is what has kept players around.

And since they're still around, there's plenty of targets for the folks that get their kicks out of playing against other players.

(http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/hrry.gif)

Yep, this game is definitely still around because of all the merchants. I'm glad we're experiencing the same game.

Also, you're exactly right. All conflict should be 'spooky sneaker/raider versus wizened crafter victim'. ;)

Anyway, let's agree to disagree.

Quote from: absurdist on August 25, 2015, 06:40:57 PM
Also, you're exactly right. All conflict should be 'spooky sneaker/raider versus wizened crafter victim'. ;)

Because, I said that.  But good point.  No more food.

Yes, crime code is worth it. There should be consequences for our actions. We live in a military police state. It does bring up RP. You want to kill someone and get it done. RP with others. Get others involved with your cause. Have friends cause problems in other part of the city to kill the person your after or steal from that noble. I know over the years they've actually slowed down the guards jump in and kill everyone reaction time. People think someone is after them hire bodyguards. I think people should be using creativity inside of the game.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on August 10, 2015, 03:27:20 PM

*bunch of awesome stuff*

Wow, it takes guts to right a post like this.  Sorry that I haven't been able to read through all of the replies, but I quite like this idea.  Like maybe if it were phased into certain areas, or if there were otherwise a trial run or a phased roll-out or something.

I can say for sure that there are a lot of people who do thinks like hang out in the Gaj, when it absolutely doesn't suit the character (and let's be honest, it often doesn't fit the players who hang there) so if there was just a few more stabbings per capita, it would make the game more lively.

It might be nice if, rather than taking crimcode away in places, different crimes added to a crime score  Maybe a little like GTA, but less extreme.

Get caught picking the pocket of-
Some independent: low addition to your crime score. Soldiers don't care unless you do it a bunch of times in a relatively short amount of time
A noble's aide or GMH family: larger increase to crime score, but still not enough to warrant instant reaction
Noble's pockets: in for a world of hurt
A half-elf: no one cares
An elf: actually reduces your crime score

And for the scale,
0-3: no one cares
4-5: NPCs verbally acknowledge the criminal, drawing PC attention to them
6-8: mercy on, attempts to arrest
8-10: no mercy, but will still attempt arrest

Inkspots your name is too damn similar. But your idea is okay.

Quote from: Inks on August 27, 2015, 01:11:46 AM
Inkspots your name is too damn similar. But your idea is okay.

I beat you to it by 1.5 years ;D

But thank you.

Alas...I didn't have gdb account for first 3 years of arm.

Also less guards in RS too please. Cut in half at least. How can we moss eisley cantina?

Quote from: Inks on September 17, 2015, 11:50:43 AM
Also less guards in RS too please. Cut in half at least. How can we moss eisley cantina?

No, just, no. While that might be convenient for citizens of Red Storm, it removes the coded NPC threat to people who would just go bounty hunting in the streets otherwise, and you know they would.

More muls, pls.

Quote from: Fathi on August 13, 2015, 12:10:19 AM
My biggest beef with the crim code in its current incarnation is the instantaneous response time and the way petty crimes can sometimes result in a massive NPC overreaction.

I wish soldiers didn't feel the need to rush in and ARREST THE SHIT OUT OF EVERYBODY IMMEDIATELY

I had a blast reading through all of these responses but Faithi yours struck a funny memory for me.

I was playing an aide to a templar at the time, in charge of cooking and the like so there was always tons of scraps and burnt junk around that nobody wanted.  So my character, trying to be all nice to the beggars and low lives (since thats where she came from) decided to give away these scraps.. well hell.. unless they've fixed this since then.. the NPC grebber dirt kids will not "accept" when you try to give them something.  So me being the sneaky type decided to "plant" some scraps in their pockets for them to find later... BIG MISTAKE!

Sally the scrap-haired, shit face screams "THIEF THIEF" and in roll the heavies, thump thump.. I wake up in prison with a PC templar demanding to know what in Teks great name I was doing stealing from children!  LOL

Funny.. but not so funny.. I like the ideas of the lessened extent of the law for stupid shit like this to be let slide.

Quote from: perfecto on September 17, 2015, 04:39:40 PM

Quote from: Fathi on August 13, 2015, 12:10:19 AM
My biggest beef with the crim code in its current incarnation is the instantaneous response time and the way petty crimes can sometimes result in a massive NPC overreaction.

I wish soldiers didn't feel the need to rush in and ARREST THE SHIT OUT OF EVERYBODY IMMEDIATELY

I had a blast reading through all of these responses but Faithi yours struck a funny memory for me.

I was playing an aide to a templar at the time, in charge of cooking and the like so there was always tons of scraps and burnt junk around that nobody wanted.  So my character, trying to be all nice to the beggars and low lives (since thats where she came from) decided to give away these scraps.. well hell.. unless they've fixed this since then.. the NPC grebber dirt kids will not "accept" when you try to give them something.  So me being the sneaky type decided to "plant" some scraps in their pockets for them to find later... BIG MISTAKE!

Sally the scrap-haired, shit face screams "THIEF THIEF" and in roll the heavies, thump thump.. I wake up in prison with a PC templar demanding to know what in Teks great name I was doing stealing from children!  LOL

Funny.. but not so funny.. I like the ideas of the lessened extent of the law for stupid shit like this to be let slide.

Reminds me of one of my first PCs, a rat who liked to do card tricks, but I didn't know about the sleight of hand, and instead used 'plant' and 'steal' to hide the cards.  Well, it had predictable results.  Funny bit is, being so very new, it took me three trips to the dungeons before I realized that -that- was what was making the guards take me away.

The crim code is terrible.
Maybe we should have certain soldiers with different personalities.
ex 1:
The evil-looking human man has arrived from the north, he really fuckin' kicks your ass until you're dead!
ex 2:
The palladin of the high lord has arrived from the south, he stops your violence and asks you to follow him. (or he takes the both of you into custody) ...where you'll be dealt with off the streets.

---- I like the idea that fighting without weapons gets you a scalding and not jail time.
- multiple offenses gets you jail time.
- and it never ends up in you definitely dead, because people fight. Eh... you know.
- (optional) unless you were caught by someone who really hates elves or dwarves or whatever.

---- fighting with weapons gets you jail time. Very possibly killed.
- (optional) unless they don't like your ass.
- multiple offenses gets you lots of jail time or killed.

---- non soldier VNPCs and NPCs should mostly not care what the heck is going on
(I just wanted to clarify, vennant is an NPC and the commoners you can't see are VNPCs, right?)
- really? is bad as it sounds, even if they actually care about what's going on, Very little people will actually do anything about it. If they had cameras they'd video tape that shit. (imagines someone painting a fight in the streets)
- soldier VNPCs shouldn't exist.

That's all the ideas I came up with off the top of my head. I think I thought about this a long time ago in the shower once, but eh... at least it's coming up now.

_____________
I want to add something that wasn't mentioned (or that I was too lazy to read)

Fear. No longer will that person that just insulted you in the middle of the street be able to just turn his back and walk away. You can kick his dumb face in and then disengage because you're a responsible role player. You can subdue people and emote holding them up against walls and scare the shit out of their scrawny little bodies. You'll be able to put the fear of death into people. ... the next time one of you know it all jerks up turns your nose and just turns away from me after an insult isn't going to have to worry about a backstab. That's -too- fucking much. I'm going to bully your ass and put you in your place. Until you get a body guard to beat me up instead. Or whatever.

of course you could also just be killed during a street fight. But that deserves the crim code. Bam. People would remember the guy who killed someone else.
unless you were an elf or something, but no. Elves are VNPCs too. They'd remember you.

MORE. MORE IDEAS.

My thoughts are this:

Replace the HGs with humans. Leave the ones at the gates, and maybe keep a few scattered around some key intersections / buildings, but apart from that make them all humans. HGs are rarer than medium-sized humanoids, and the way they are played generally makes them much less likely to be criminals, so this shouldn't cause too much of a problem really.

No more ninja guards coming down from the roofs. It's ridiculous that your exact, unmistakable description can be instantaneously relayed to dozens and dozens of NPCs all over the city. I propose that if you cause a ruckus in one area, only the guards in that one area respond. So, the guards who are in the rooms immediately surrounding you. But if you escape that area, you should be home free. I think this could be implemented to dropping the duration on the wanted timer to like 15-60 seconds total. If you lead a Benny Hill chase through the streets, obviously your timer would get re-upped every time one managed to catch and attack you. And if you stabbed someone in the Gaj, got attacked by an NPC guard, fled, and came back 5 minutes later after your wanted timer wore off, I think the guards who attacked you would still be aggro toward you. (This is how it works for other mobs like NPCs in the rinth, so hopefully that behavior could apply to guards as well.)

Yeah, this would be a huge neuter to the crimcode system - practically a repeal. But you could make sure certain areas (taverns, shops, main roads) always had soldiers nearby and ready to jump in at the sign of trouble. You could even skill them up to make the initial brush-up with with them harder to survive, even. I think this would also put the onus of crime and punishment where it belongs - in PC hands. If you chose to outright attack people in crowded areas, your description would get around just as surely as it is now.

The REAL difference this causes is that it would force people to play their characters, not the crim code. Real life has police, bouncers, and all sorts of things to place to keep us safe that Zalanthas doesn't have. But tell me, truthfully, if a thug came up to you in a bar and threatened you, would you threaten him right back, safe in the knowledge that you're on the right side of the law and that if he attacked you he'd probably mess you up, but he'd get pulled off pretty quickly and end up in jail? Nope. You'd bitch out. I'd bitch out. Most of us who value our teeth would bitch out and try to calm him down. And Armageddon (should be) much more dangerous than the real world...

I like the idea of half giants as NPC soldiers. all about. If you're a noble and you get what you want it makes sense to have the biggest baddest guard there is. It makes you ICly and OOCly think, "Holy crap. Let me reconsider this."
In my opinion it wouldn't make sense /not/ to have a half-giant guardian for something as simple as a door to my personal bathroom.

Escape should be much easier. I think, though, the crim-code is like this:
if you break the law you get a crim flag named "nak-flag"
And /every/ soldier in allanak will react to a character with "nak-flag" attached to them.

it would take a bit of coding, but you want it to be something like,
if you break the law you get a crim flag from /that/ guard that spreads like a virus. Let's call him guard A. He then recieves "patrol A" which will allow him to react to the  "guard A-flag" that he gave you for breaking the law.
When he passes another soldier he also gives them "patrol A" so they now know to look out for you.

- I want to say again that I would get rid of civilians giving a damn about law breakers and have only NPC guards. No VNPC, just make believe they're there guards.
-on another note, the way it is now... kind of forces people to send in character reports, requests and speak with the IMMs before carrying out their plans, which is good. The scene can always be made better with help from our lords and masters. The only way I see it not working is if the IMMs are busy with their own lives or other things when said character plans to make ''their move''. Opportunities don't come up every day and when you ask for them...

I say remove 1/4th of the total NPC soldiers in a given citystate (now Allanak). Use the new patrol code to give them slightly-better routing so you don't run into someone just placing a soldier one square away from known NPC targets to "effectively stop crime".

Give criminal players SOMETHING to deal with. Set up patrols for the soldiers, even at night, so you have to really scope out that NPC (or PC) and make sure you can do what you're going to do before someone comes around.


I just remember being in Tuluk, and seeing half-giants placed on standby one square away from every even LOW value target, which didn't give Criminal PCs a whole lot to practice on before wanting to be a Shartist. (then again, when a soldier WASN'T near these targets? Stripped down to their knickers every damn day)

I like the idea of giving people a chance, but I would want to make a set number like 1/4. I like the amount of soldiers in allanak.

All that really needs to be done is to put a delay on the crim flag depending on the circumstances the crime happens. The delay should reflect the presence or absence of soldiers, how much time it should reasonable take for the crime to be reported and disseminated (a chaotic, crowded environment should make reporting crime harder, not easier!), and how high priority enforcement is depending on the location of the crime, the nature of the crime and the social status of both the criminal and victim.

Something like this, the numbers are purely hypothetical:


Circumstance of Crime (witnessed by NPC or vNPCs)           Delay (Real time)
                                           
[Soldiers in general Vicinity]
Soldier in room               None
1 room from soldier 30 seconds
2 or 3 rooms away & visible to soldier 1 minute

[No nearby soldiers]
Noble or Templar Quarter, Meleth's Circle 30 seconds
Merchant Quarter, Arena, Caravan Road, Merchant Road 1 minute
Magicker Quarter, Other Major Roads 2 minutes
Common Quarter, Bazaar 4 minutes

[Multiplicative modifiers]
Crime was violent     .75
Crime was magickal       .5
Victim is non-human or non-citizen      1.5
Criminal is human    1.25
Criminal is non-citizen       .75

I just liked the idea of making less half-giants and more humans, so that resisting arrest was no longer suicidal.  Criminals can fight soldiers, and thus PC soldier patrols become more important, to catch people in the act.  Stealth is no longer a requirement to get away with it.  Brutes can do it too.

Edit:  Not that I disagree with other ideas.  This one just seems like a simple way to get what people were talking about, without massive code overhaul.

There are a fuckton too many halfgiant soldiers. I say remove every soldier that isn't scripted to patrol.

I see the difficulty, but soldiers have the Way too.  That's why word spreads so fast.  They don't need to physically meet each other to share it.  But it wouldn't spread instantly like it does!

It'd be nice if PC soldiers got in on this sweet NPC soldier Way network apparently.

Quote from: Refugee on January 05, 2016, 02:26:23 AM
I see the difficulty, but soldiers have the Way too.  That's why word spreads so fast.  They don't need to physically meet each other to share it.  But it wouldn't spread instantly like it does!

That's why we need all the HG militia.

Quote from: Refugee on January 05, 2016, 02:26:23 AM
I see the difficulty, but soldiers have the Way too.  That's why word spreads so fast.  They don't need to physically meet each other to share it.  But it wouldn't spread instantly like it does!

the way is like a fantasy distributed sensor network. with the right role assignments and procedures in place you could distribute an enormous amount of information in seconds. players aren't that organized but there's no reason the virtual world isn't

on mobile

I am now imagining little nerdy zalanthan men huddled together in a wagon whispering things they hear through the way and relaying it to their assigned templar/soldier etc

Nah, it's just a single, enslaved psionic. The soldiers keep psionic contact with him at all times, and instantly report crimes to him. The psionic is drugged, never allowed to sleep and is tied into a magical apparatus that causes any psionic message he receives to be immediately broadcast to all of the soldiers who are in contact with him.

Zalanthan police radio.

Quote from: Chettaman on January 04, 2016, 11:18:15 AM
In my opinion it wouldn't make sense /not/ to have a half-giant guardian for something as simple as a door to my personal bathroom.

Until you find everything inside missing because some 'rinthi elf managed to convince it they were hired to redecorate.

That's the problem with NPC half giants. They're supposed to be stupid. Easily mislead and manipulated. It's something the code doesn't account for. Having a bunch left around the city unsupervised by humans is a horrible idea.

Quote from: hyzhenhok on January 05, 2016, 04:47:30 AM
Nah, it's just a single, enslaved psionic. The soldiers keep psionic contact with him at all times, and instantly report crimes to him. The psionic is drugged, never allowed to sleep and is tied into a magical apparatus that causes any psionic message he receives to be immediately broadcast to all of the soldiers who are in contact with him.

Zalanthan police radio.

That sounds too much like Minority Report.

I thought the militia NPCs were half-mantis bred by Tektolnes in a secret laboratory under his tower? Their hive mind  is how they react so quickly across the city to criminals!

Quote from: Armaddict on January 05, 2016, 01:37:48 AM
I just liked the idea of making less half-giants and more humans, so that resisting arrest was no longer suicidal.  Criminals can fight soldiers, and thus PC soldier patrols become more important, to catch people in the act.  Stealth is no longer a requirement to get away with it.  Brutes can do it too.

Edit:  Not that I disagree with other ideas.  This one just seems like a simple way to get what people were talking about, without massive code overhaul.

Well if we're going to do something, we might as well do it ''right''. Make changes that we can all agree on that make sense! Let's put our incredible minds together!

from refugee:
"I see the difficulty, but soldiers have the Way too.  That's why word spreads so fast.  They don't need to physically meet each other to share it.  But it wouldn't spread instantly like it does!"
I agree. For some reason I had this idea that no soldier actually cared about they're work. But, I mean... there's gotta be someone that's like, "What? Criminal on stone-carvers!? Gather anyone you can, form a wall and shove anyone in your way out of your way. Move all the way to templars. I'll start at templars and move to wall road. Move, move, move!"

Hyzen - Your idea complicates things. And I like it. I only don't like that the timer would be set for all guards to react. Well I guess it would make sense, they'd see a wanted poster with your likeness - 20 coins alive. 10,000 coins alive or dead or something. I think I'm really having trouble deciding if anyone actually cares about justice in the cities.

Asanadas - Holy shit, you're brilliant!
"The so-and-so soldier dood sends you telapathically - Look out for a tall, muscular man."

KawaiiBear - Good point. Maybe the half giant guards could react differently or notice less.
----
I think what most of us want is a reasonable way to escape. At least for the moment it happens in. I myself think, "who the hell's going to care about some elf stealing some guy's coin purse enough to have every guard in the city on alert?"
if people get into a fight and it's without weapons and it doesn't go any further then just fighting. I guess a knock out would be the line to consider a fight serious.
Who is seriously going to report to their very busy superior that there's a fight in the gaj. unless it was, "Weapons drawn in the gaj!"

Quote from: Refugee on January 05, 2016, 02:26:23 AM
I see the difficulty, but soldiers have the Way too.  That's why word spreads so fast.  They don't need to physically meet each other to share it.  But it wouldn't spread instantly like it does!

Then I propose that the new crime response goes like this; if you commit a crime within 1 room of a soldier NPC, that NPC doesn't aggro you, but instead falls immediately unconscious from the insane volume of WAYing he's doing.  ;) 

I'm not really interested in justifying HOW every soldier knows what they do, I'd just like to make guard presence be more realistic. My goal isn't to "escape more easily" either. I just want to remove the feeling that crime can't happen to you in a given area, because the code would insta-fuck the perpetrator. That's the feeling the crim-code portrays, but it's not the right vibe for the world. Maybe a scale back would turn Nak proper into rinth 2.0 and it would need scaled back up. Who knows.

And we don't need an elaborate new system to do this. From a programmatic prospective, a lot of these ideas read as "throw out everything, write something 10x more complex", which is never going to happen. An NPC scale back, and a reduction in timer duration - that's more doable. (But also probably never going to happen. >.>)  OR, perhaps the city could be rezoned into quadrants, so instead of being wanted everywhere, you would get a "wanted_allanak_commons" or a "wanted_allanak_bazaar" flag.

It's probably hue and cry that's getting soldiers in on it.

I've never had trouble working around the criminal code.

The volume of half-giants is absolutely crazy from an RP point of view, though.

Quote from: Vwest on January 06, 2016, 05:36:44 PM
I've never had trouble working around the criminal code.

That's because it is all or nothing. Once you figure out how to work around it it's like it doesn't exist, because you never put yourself in situation to fail. But if you don't know how to do that, it's oppressive and irritating. Perhaps with less deadly reactions there would be more people willing to use their skills in situations they might fail, and thus create opportunities for interaction and conflict.

As it stands, criminals get little to no interaction with their targets.

Quote from: Vwest on January 06, 2016, 05:36:44 PM
I've never had trouble working around the criminal code.

The volume of half-giants is absolutely crazy from an RP point of view, though.

The binary "operate only when you can't possibly be caught until you can't fail, and then operate with impunity as if it doesn't exist" isn't all that great, though.

For the world, getting into a bar fight where a knife is drawn SHOULD be realistic. Accidentally using kick in a barfight shouldn't be a death sentence because the code can't subdue a fighting target.

Walking along the street at night should be dangerous as all hell, because there should be a marked smaller amount of soldiers on the streets. If the new patrol code is functioning, I would honestly suggest if we're to have the same number of NPC soldiers (despite code irregularities like dupe NPCs on resets), then the patrols should bring them into the barracks on the east end of the city at night. If there were a dozen patrolling NPC soldiers in the city at night, I'd still feel a bit overwhelmed. Yes, there should be more, but there should be about a thousand more desperate murderous thieves willing to stab anyone with a nice robe on because they need a bite to eat.


Trail someone out of a bar, watch them speedwalk through PURE DARKNESS without a care. Its staggering, at best, and there is no real room to make the streets dangerous.

I think the volume of half-giant soldiers is a duplication bug. I've typoed/bugged/idead this multiple times, because it makes no sense for EIGHT HG soldiers to all be standing in the wagonyard, doing absolutely nothing, for a RL week or longer. There are also duplicates of a bunch of other NPCs that look like they were intended to be unique, and I bug/idea/typo those too. Pretty sure that just removing the NPCs isn't going to solve the problem, because when they do that, the game reset just makes more duplicates anyway. There's got to be something going on in the code itself that's causing it.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 06, 2016, 05:46:00 PMAs it stands, criminals get little to no interaction with their targets.

You're right! You're absolutely right, and that's what I hate.

to riev: guard could stop someone. I guess you'd need to be holding a lantern or have it sitting in the area. lol! Then you'd have to stop them fifteen times! ahahaha! - then they'd just take your lantern and continue on their merry way. xD
good idea. I've noticed that the guards really don't care about public safety /that/ much. So I imagine them all wanting sleep more so than keeping people safe.

a guard enters and stops your fighting!
codedly the guards stop /your/ combat.
the guard says aiming his weapon at you, "Come with us, criminal."
then you have the choice to continue fighting, fight the authorities, run, or submit in that moment. And let's say the moment has a thirty second timer. After 30 seconds they arrest you and you go to jail. Any other choice and they don't sheath their weapons and instead use them on you.

If guards could force "disengage" on people with "nosave arrest" turned on, the world would be a better place.

I don't think dialing down the crimcode would improve interaction between criminal / target. Spam backstab would still be the most effective route to take. But it would make people consider their safety during their roleplay.

Yeah, fewer soldiers (definitely fewer HGs), more patrols, and a force disengage on both parties when the offender has nosave arrest turned on.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on January 18, 2016, 10:41:00 PM
I don't think dialing down the crimcode would improve interaction between criminal / target. Spam backstab would still be the most effective route to take. But it would make people consider their safety during their roleplay.

I think you're wrong there. Opportunities for non-backstab, non-steal crime opens way up if there are more dangerous rooms in the city, and marks no longer have the OOC assurance that violence against them is impossible because that would be suicide for the criminal.

I think he means after a guard codedly disengages combatants and asks you to come to jail.
in my perfect world:

The elfy elf glares at the tall, muscular man and then at the guard. In an act of defiance, the elfy elf thrusts his blade into the tall muscular man's throat before escaping!

- of course even afterwards the guards would be after you and you would be wanted.
- but it is a negative... being backstabbed as such. Well, I still like the idea. Just use the watch skill more often, dammit. It really works most of the time.


---
definitely this would add more "Gimme all your jewels or else, punk!" Nearly every violent PC I've run into in the rinth has done this to me. I just expect great things from people whenever I give them a chance.
... You know what? Eff everything I said. I give people chances to roleplay with me all the time and they just kill the hell out of me without so much as a single emote. I give you players too much damn credit sometimes...

The only major change that I would like to see is the moving of the jail closer to the criminals.

Quote from: ghostymudy on January 25, 2016, 02:07:06 AM
The only major change that I would like to see is the moving of the jail closer to the criminals.

Then amazing RPers like me couldn't <redacted> from the guards and then run around <redacted> Quarter and steal <redacted>'s shield and then get more <redacted> spawned on her to lead on a chase through the <redacted> that eventually led to <redacted>'s death.

So!

I was just going to PK you anyway.

:-*

Why can't the soldiers just have mercy on?   Beat someone within an inch of thier lives, combat stops because of mercy and then they get subdued/jailed because they're no longer in combat. 

Quote from: not_really_mean on February 01, 2016, 07:40:15 AM
Why can't the soldiers just have mercy on?   Beat someone within an inch of thier lives, combat stops because of mercy and then they get subdued/jailed because they're no longer in combat. 

Because some people deserve to die on the spot, and the Highlord prefers to err on the side of brutality.

But really, they should have clubs and mercy on.

As an AoD Sergeant I eventually decided to just start ordering my privates to kill anyone who ran from us or vaguely resisted arrest.

Maybe the NPC officers reached similar conclusions.

It is too bad that changing the armaments of the soldier NPCs is so tedious a process. Apparently each individual NPC would need to be edited.