Armageddon General Discussion Board

Figured if I make this post with the intention of discussing feelings, maybe I could look through the Q&A thread without having to pass four posts of "My feelings are hurt." or pure saltyness.

Please post all your feelings posts here.

I personally am torn, but not to the extent some of you are it appears.

I wish that they would just alter the game in real time, closing off some areas with landslides, earthquakes and all that shit.

I wish that lore was expanded and updated so it made more sense for the game now with 20-30 players on PT versus the 70ish we had when I started playing.

I wish the players didn't riddle the staff with pointless, frivolous shit to the point they don't wanna work here no more.

I wish a lot of things, I think the path they are taking is more manageable for the handful of staff they can keep, it's something that Halaster and Usiku are pumped for and pumped staff are good ones, after all they aren't going to code a bunch of shit if they aren't invested.

Most of all I wish everyone would stop doom and glooming every single change that's made to the game.

I think things will turn out okay in the end. I also think that leaders of the community - which is to say, staff and prominent, long-time players - take the playerbase way too much for granted when it comes to how willing players are to put up with upheaval and change they were not consulted on.

A lot of the sentiment I see that relates to players always being willing to come back after extended breaks and long-term change feels a bit presumptive. Everyone has a limit to how much inconvenience and setback they are willing to take before they decline. While something has to give, and I think this is generally the right direction, it feels jarring.

I just hope that we all understand why people have sore feelings about it and we don't treat them dismissively as calling it "doom and glooming every single change that's made to the game" would imply. This isn't just "any change". This is by far the biggest change to the game since Armageddon became an RPI.

I think this is better than watching the playerbase and staff bleed until the game is no more. Does that mean it will ultimately be successful? Not necessarily. But I'm heartened that we're trying something at least.

Honestly my biggest worry is the reaction of the playerbase, such as those ragequitting or announcing that the game will die. If you don't give Armageddon a chance, of course it's going to die. Are those long-lived characters that many of us never achieve anyway really so important to you? Is the idea of being able to play in multiple timestreams and locations not the least bit enticing?

Other than that, yeah. Some discussion would have been nice before implimenting something like this. I can't help but wonder if by talking it through, players and staff, we could have found a better way. Better as in more likely to succeed.

I would have preferred an epic clash of dragons and armies and in the middle of all that someone hits the kill switch and ends it all. Clean deaths are the best. This feels like a long and drawn-out illness with no one wanting to talk about the inevitable.

Armageddon needs something like this if it's going to survive. I can't say I'm fully confident that it'll come to fruition - and if it doesn't, that's probably the end of the road for this old game - but if staff is as dedicated to it as they say, it just might. It doesn't have to go the way of Arm 2.0, which was clearly far too vast and unrealistically ambitious a task to ever be completed. This has a better chance of getting done.

It will take more of an effort than seems to have been made in recent times, though. I've long been disappointed in the near-total absence of any signs of staff presence in the game, and the stagnation and lack of building blocks for plots that resulted from this. If the burnout and apathy can be solved with a change of scenery, that's great. However, if this new project is approached with the same halfheartedness, it's hard to have much faith.

The game has been described by staff as 'circling the drain,' and that's true, but I feel like too much of the blame has been placed on the dwindling player numbers. I don't think that's the cause of the game's problems. That's a consequence of what's been wrong in recent years. There has been no meaningful story. There have been almost no events that can be used to build roleplay upon. Players have had nothing to work with.

Things like playing in a clan for months without ever seeing an animation, a staff echo, or any other indication that the clan's appointed storyteller is active at all. Countless mini-projects that are launched and then seemingly abandoned to fizzle out without ever having accomplished anything. Entire playable areas having had no story material from staff for so long it might as well have been never. These things have driven players away. The game has not become stagnant because players left. Players left because the game became stagnant. It didn't exactly start this year, or last year.

There's every possibility that this can change if the seasons bring renewed enthusiasm and inspiration from staff, but it's a change that does need to happen in order for it to work out. Players also need to become more willing to engage with the game as a whole, but players can only do as much as is possible with whatever they're given to work with, and if they're given nothing to work with - which has largely been the case in recent years - it's difficult to find inspiration for truly worthwhile roleplay.

I feel disappointed about the idea of prolonged downtime. I feel somewhat disappointed that the initial change will occur so close to the beginning of the new year. But the changes themselves, I think are really interesting and intriguing. I love that what I do in the current version of the game, can impact what the next version looks like, or even possibly become a catalyst for a season-theme change.

I am concerned that there was so much miscommunication in staff land that there were open rolecalls for pretty high-visibility and high content roles that now have 30days to "get it done or be wiped".

Combined with a historical inability to meet time goals, where we now must ask staff to help us finish out our own plots? It takes over a week for a simple report to be even ACKNOWLEDGED, and I have 4 weeks to finish my storyline.

Ouch.

Damn guys, I know y'all wanted to force store me but this is going a bit too far don't you think? :P

The whole 'get it done in a month or get wiped' thing is. Rough, considering I've been unable to find any of the 8 people (or even 3 of the 'types of people') I've been trying to find for two months now :V
I guess having staff willing to just. handwave and push things forward for me would be helpful
but then having that story immediately rendered pointless and forgotten to the winds is
rough, also.
But closure-and-forgetting is better than just. Being rendered invalid on IC *AND* OOC levels.

Sad.

I was really enjoying my character and had long-term plans. Now I'm just not playing because there's no point.

I would rather have staff completely out of the game world, except for npc animations and admin stuff like roles and custom craft, leaving all plots to the players, maybe have role calls for specific plot characters who have secret plot directives. All up to the pc how to complete them. Then staff could just monitor and not have to expend a lot of energy. Leave it to the roleplayers to roleplay. Allow for higher ranked roles, from the sorcerer kings themselves on down. Add in automated systems to help with a smaller playerbase, like adding a hiring npc for GMHs and militias like they have for the Byn. A package delivery system, maybe a game mail system to pass messages to offline players that can be ic or ooc depending on needs. This would allow communication without knowing the ooc name of the player.

I am not worried about changes ruining my enjoyment of the game. Some of the things I enjoy most about this game are so inherent to DIKU that I cannot foresee staff ever removing them, barring a full blown engine swap.

I am concerned by how capricious and arbitrary the responsiveness to player feedback appears to be.  From the outset we're told "it is not a democracy" and given the impression that the decisions have been made, and while we can chat amongst ourselves for our own amusement, we will not be affecting staff decisions by doing so.  Then we talk amongst ourselves and now it looks like part of the new Seasons approach is going to be modeled on some Star Wars mud as a result.  Is that the best idea?  Maybe.  Who knows how many other ideas could have been put on the table if people didn't operate under the impression it would be pointless and/or unwelcome?  If staff was open to player feedback on this, it should have been invited from the beginning.  If staff was willing to take player feedback into account, it should not have been discouraged from the beginning. 

If anyone searches, you will see I have been consistent with this concern for years: seeing big changes come to the game as a result of a staff person reading a post that almost seems pulled at random from the crowd of posts.  It ends up feeling like a crap shoot and a matter of luck and timing, when we could have a more organized way to invite and capture feedback.

I just really wish that if our feedback was actually welcome, that could be made clear instead of this contradictory approach.

I'll just add:  my motivation has taken a hit because it feels like we're in 'sudden death' mode now, where my only chance at preserving not only my PC's legacy but that of the entire clan, is to survive until shut-down day.  If I typo or die to a random scrab now, that's the end - no time to start a new legacy.  It feels like the smart move is to hold the ball and run out the clock rather than try to make another play.

I've said it before, I'll say it again:

In an effort to reduce staff workload, staff are adding to their workload and making promises that historically have been difficult or impossible to keep.

In an effort to not write paragraphs, please excuse my blunt execution:

Staff as a whole do not have a good track record with providing entertaining RPTs, and when they run HRPTs there is very little player agency involved. Maybe this will change, but writing GDB posts about virtual events that players had no part in is NOT what we're here for.

I have to say, as critical as I am of staff decisions from time to time, just talking shit about them over and over is probably not going to help anything.  At the end of the day they got the staff accounts that can do shit and make the decisions good or bad.

I mean, I'm optimistic that it's either gonna work or it's gonna crash and burn so spectacularly that it will at least be a nice explosion to witness. Like when you see a horrible car accident that you know people died in, but it's still interesting to see the carnage?

Nothing we say, no amount of textual crying or stamping our feet is gonna change what they wanna do.

Feels like acceptance that things are not going to get better.

I still think the game has a lot to offer and my suggestions are to focus on making peace with the angry ex players (so reddit reviews can be an asset) and making sure the game is relevant with a younger generation (maybe less about rape/race hatred in the docs and more emphasis on elites vs poor). Also, make sure each code change is about making the game more FUN to play. Start out with a few maxed out (for the class/subclass) bread and butter skills like forage.

They could have brainstormed more - Make Stienal appear out of the sands and populate it with PC sorcs and mages or whatever. With, a common enemy to all civilization, Tuluk and Nak would have to bury the hatchet or perish. A plot twist could push players closer together and still retain the old world and customs. I mean a Nak pavilion in Tuluk and vice versa, tense.

I am not good at this game. I have a 10 days old pc (not played time) that still has some starting gear because I can't seem to make money. No point in continuing to struggle to get him useful now. With a time limit, grinding becomes more important, not less.

Quote from: Pariah on December 07, 2023, 01:05:45 PMI have to say, as critical as I am of staff decisions from time to time, just talking shit about them over and over is probably not going to help anything.  At the end of the day they got the staff accounts that can do shit and make the decisions good or bad.

I mean, I'm optimistic that it's either gonna work or it's gonna crash and burn so spectacularly that it will at least be a nice explosion to witness. Like when you see a horrible car accident that you know people died in, but it's still interesting to see the carnage?

Nothing we say, no amount of textual crying or stamping our feet is gonna change what they wanna do.

OP starts a thread to talk about our feelings and then tells us expressing them is meaningless.

I mean yeah, everything ends in the heat death of the universe. My feelings still happened and you wanted to talk about them. 

Anyway I feel schadenfreude but at myself.  Is that weird?

Quote from: Pariah on December 07, 2023, 01:05:45 PMI mean, I'm optimistic that it's either gonna work or it's gonna crash and burn so spectacularly that it will at least be a nice explosion to witness. Like when you see a horrible car accident that you know people died in, but it's still interesting to see the carnage?

You're a joy and a delight. *eyes roll out of head*


I think it's nice they're attempting to bring people closer together, but sad others are feeling like their stories are being cut off or that they'll be unable to engage with the parts of the game they love. I hope that they feel the community here is worth returning for. I like the RP better than everywhere else I've tried and I'm a bit gutted people are giving up on it. I understand it, but I selfishly want them to stay so I can continue to write stories (however insignificant) with all of them.

I think a several-month-long shut down will dwindle the amount of people interested in returning to a very small number. Or that the staff will decide we're not worth it and just bin the entire thing and close down the game forever. It's difficult not to be a little fatalistic toward some definite end since people repeatedly bring up "muds are dying" in the discussions.

TLDR: I like the changes, but I'm fearful people will leave.

I would like to know where people plan to rp in the interim if anywhere so that I can cling relentlessly to their heels, but I'm not sure if I'm allowed to ask and worried that asking will encourage people to just peace out forever. I'm a little dramatic like that.

I've played for around 22 years and have not had a character for a day or two, at the most, in that time.  So... any length of shutdown is a shit show for me.  I have tried to log into my current character but just haven't had the heart to play.  I hope I will still be interested in Armageddon when it resurfaces but I just don't know.  I need to find some other outlet, to take up my time, now. 

Whoa.  This is hardcore.


So, I'm not actually playing the game. In truth, I haven't for years. For different reasons.

I'll admit, I will create a character in the next season. Maybe even 3-5 characters if lifespans are short. 

And after that, if experience proves meh, I won't ever return.  Which isnt a big difference to now as I don't even really play anyway. But Armageddon will always be in my heart.  The new season will either reignite the passion, or be my final closure.  Both possibilities are positives to be honest.

Its a giant risk. Its basically swim, or die hail Mary for Armageddon.


There are positives to this change. Individual characters ilicit less passion. People will be attached less to their alter personas and yet eager to weave the story.  Because the story might survive the season change, while the character won't.

There are negatives as well. Less passion, means less interest. People refrained from starting characters until their cgp regenerated. Imagine dying a month away from season end and choosing not to begin new PC.

A diffeent mindset would be needed for a game like that. Less focused on character and their personal stories and more focused on the story of the entire season, in which each player is a part of, but not the main show.

Staff better be able to provide closure at seasons end. Summarize and reveal plots and stories thats been done by players. Total reveal in a way that builds the story and makes the players feel like their participation mattered

Players would need to change too. Less focus on leaving a coded impact  (I want to build a hut!) And more focus on leaving a good story that entertains and amazes other players at the seasons end.


Or we could all fumble it tremendously. By staff failing to maintain the burden they are foolishly placing onto themselves or players refusing to leave their comfortable, slowly dying, sand pit that they've been gradually decaying in the last few years.

In my view. I would definitely return to the game and do my best to make the gameplay awesome. For myself and other players. But if the game fails to maintain my interest, it would be the cure that helps me move past Armageddon forever.  For there will no longer be the ol' routine I can return to for some mindless fun.

I wish Armageddon, it's staff, and the players good luck. This will either turn things around wondrously, or be the game's last page.

I think all the howling from players is hard to take seriously. Many of these players gleefully enjoyed ending another character's story in ways that are wholly callous and arbitrary. And then they complain the loudest when their story needs to end? Give me a break. The hypocrisy is unreal.

The changes coming are arbitrary and risky. I also don't have complete confidence in the staff implementing them. But I think they should try. It's not like anyone is actually dying for real.

Quote from: Kaathe on December 07, 2023, 05:19:14 PMOP starts a thread to talk about our feelings and then tells us expressing them is meaningless.

Yes.. I'd like to divert this thread to a safe space to grieve the game as it was known please.

As well as celebrate any future possibilities

Quote from: MarshallDFX on December 08, 2023, 04:18:27 AM

Quote from: Kaathe on December 07, 2023, 05:19:14 PMOP starts a thread to talk about our feelings and then tells us expressing them is meaningless.

Yes.. I'd like to divert this thread to a safe space to grieve the game as it was known please.

As well as celebrate any future possibilities

Absolutely ingenuine way to start a thread.

Organizing the threads between questions and complaints/resistance is one thing but the language used in the OP is clearly condescending.

Although it fits with the tone of the conversation. Seasons could be great, but the way it was handled was consistent with a disregard fo the players.

Quote from: Dracul on December 08, 2023, 07:33:14 AMSeasons could be great, but the way it was handled was consistent with a disregard fo the players.

Just to reiterate, I agree with the reasoning behind these changes and think the changes could be good.  My issues are with how it has been rolled out.

Quote from: Dar on December 07, 2023, 10:52:36 PMThe new season will either reignite the passion, or be my final closure.  Both possibilities are positives to be honest.

Its a giant risk. Its basically swim, or die hail Mary for Armageddon.

Jesus, I could not have summed up my own feelings any better than this.

I am both optimistic that it may help save the game, and ready to walk away with some good closer if it crashes. I often feel a tinge of guilt during my breaks that I could be helping keep it alive when I have other, more important things to do that don't leave me much gaming time.

After sleeping on things and giving it some more thought, I still hate it. A lot.

Long term, collaborative storytelling. I thought that is what we were doing here all along. I don't want episodes. I want history. There is a chain of stories in the Byn from Sujaal to the 3-hour runner in the latrines today. Stories that we wrote together and put some tears and time into. Those stories all touched each other.  That matters to me. Ten mantis heads and several RL years after we were friends, my nobody aod character held Brand's spear and I smiled at the screen. Vittor had watched Brand swing that spear fifty times. People had passed it along. We kept that story alive. That matters to me. That is a moment I cherish.

To hear that this chain of stories is going to be broken tastes like shit and ashes.

I've been thinking about how to express myself on this topic.

I think the intentions here are good and I applaud the courage to make a bold change. That said, I find the roll-out of this to be perplexing. Maybe I'm misreading things, but this feels impulsive, both because of the recent calls for role applications and the fact that some basic details seem to be TBD. Of course the change may prove to be exactly what the game needs, but getting buy-in from players is hugely important for this to succeed. By not seeking feedback beforehand, and suggesting a mass forced storage is a few weeks away, it feels like the perspectives and experience of players are being disregarded.

Don't get me wrong. I want this to succeed, and I intend to do my part (as meager as it might be) to contribute to that.

Quote from: Master Color on December 08, 2023, 01:38:44 AMI think all the howling from players is hard to take seriously. Many of these players gleefully enjoyed ending another character's story in ways that are wholly callous and arbitrary. And then they complain the loudest when their story needs to end? Give me a break. The hypocrisy is unreal.

Look. I know you said "many" to cover your ass, but I have been directly or indirectly responsible for the death of a PC maybe 6 times over 20 years of gameplay. And I'm being liberal.

Players should be allowed to dislike things without being disregarded and shoved into a group of "callous and arbitrary PKers".

The hypocrisy may exist, but your attitude is piss poor towards your fellow players. Maybe you should apply for staff.

Quote from: Riev on December 08, 2023, 09:56:18 AM

Quote from: Master Color on December 08, 2023, 01:38:44 AMI think all the howling from players is hard to take seriously. Many of these players gleefully enjoyed ending another character's story in ways that are wholly callous and arbitrary. And then they complain the loudest when their story needs to end? Give me a break. The hypocrisy is unreal.

Look. I know you said "many" to cover your ass, but I have been directly or indirectly responsible for the death of a PC maybe 6 times over 20 years of gameplay. And I'm being liberal.

Players should be allowed to dislike things without being disregarded and shoved into a group of "callous and arbitrary PKers".

The hypocrisy may exist, but your attitude is piss poor towards your fellow players. Maybe you should apply for staff.

I lol'd at the staff comment.  But yeah. While even one time being murdered for seemingly nothing will hurt and never be forgotten (I've been through 2 and it ruined an entire part of the game for me), I'm not angry at the players about it. They weren't intentionally griefing. Instead I direct it at mistakes, misunderstandings, perhaps some missing  IC context, and ultimately rules/staff allowing frivolous PK. Now let's bring this back on topic before mods show up.

I mentioned in a previous thread before the announcement  that I was on the side of incremental improvement. This is definitely not incremental! It's pretty scary even being part of staff.  I like the game as it is too. I think I'll like seasons. But the transition and the loss of what we have now is scary and saddening. On the other hand, I'm glad the producers are willing to make hard calls for the game's future. About a month or so ago I told Usiku that they do too much admin shit and not enough executive stuff. So maybe this is my fault??  :-[

Okay? You're one of the good ones Riev.

Quote from: Kaathe on December 08, 2023, 10:27:07 AM

Quote from: Riev on December 08, 2023, 09:56:18 AM

Quote from: Master Color on December 08, 2023, 01:38:44 AMI think all the howling from players is hard to take seriously. Many of these players gleefully enjoyed ending another character's story in ways that are wholly callous and arbitrary. And then they complain the loudest when their story needs to end? Give me a break. The hypocrisy is unreal.

Look. I know you said "many" to cover your ass, but I have been directly or indirectly responsible for the death of a PC maybe 6 times over 20 years of gameplay. And I'm being liberal.

Players should be allowed to dislike things without being disregarded and shoved into a group of "callous and arbitrary PKers".

The hypocrisy may exist, but your attitude is piss poor towards your fellow players. Maybe you should apply for staff.

I lol'd at the staff comment.  But yeah. While even one time being murdered for seemingly nothing will hurt and never be forgotten (I've been through 2 and it ruined an entire part of the game for me), I'm not angry at the players about it. They weren't intentionally griefing. Instead I direct it at mistakes, misunderstandings, perhaps some missing  IC context, and ultimately rules/staff allowing frivolous PK. Now let's bring this back on topic before mods show up.

Player Killing is a choice made by players. It has nothing to do with mistakes, misunderstandings or IC context. Choices were made to end someone else's fun. Fault lies with either the player or the system that enables it.

I mean, in a system where players are actively being driven to inevitably die or meet some end, it's sort of a bad outlook to see every death as some effort to "end someone's fun".

The intended approach is providing someone's story an gratifying end. Climactic or not. Not every death ends up that way but it's what people should strive for.

Anyhow etc etc these changes to the game don't provide a gratifying or organic end to people's stories.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 08, 2023, 09:21:47 AM

Quote from: Dar on December 07, 2023, 10:52:36 PMThe new season will either reignite the passion, or be my final closure.  Both possibilities are positives to be honest.

Its a giant risk. Its basically swim, or die hail Mary for Armageddon.

Jesus, I could not have summed up my own feelings any better than this.

I am both optimistic that it may help save the game, and ready to walk away with some good closer if it crashes. I often feel a tinge of guilt during my breaks that I could be helping keep it alive when I have other, more important things to do that don't leave me much gaming time.

Still immensely strange for me to continue to see people say the game was/is dying. I guess perspective is everything. I joined post mayhem earlier this year. I knew it'd been at a lull but I've seen so many awesome things this year. :(

Quote from: papertiger on December 08, 2023, 08:13:34 PM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 08, 2023, 09:21:47 AM

Quote from: Dar on December 07, 2023, 10:52:36 PMThe new season will either reignite the passion, or be my final closure.  Both possibilities are positives to be honest.

Its a giant risk. Its basically swim, or die hail Mary for Armageddon.

Jesus, I could not have summed up my own feelings any better than this.

I am both optimistic that it may help save the game, and ready to walk away with some good closer if it crashes. I often feel a tinge of guilt during my breaks that I could be helping keep it alive when I have other, more important things to do that don't leave me much gaming time.

Still immensely strange for me to continue to see people say the game was/is dying. I guess perspective is everything. I joined post mayhem earlier this year. I knew it'd been at a lull but I've seen so many awesome things this year. :(

Well, I mean, it's currently in the midst of potentially dying right now after the announcement.

But I joined like 2019 and the numbers pre-change were fairly consistent with what they were then, I'm fairly sure. 30-40 except when an event was happening. 50-70 depending on the scale of the event.

There's alot of factors which contribute to that. From reducing play areas and never going back and fixing them, to a lack of ability for certain parties to influence events in world plot on the ground, failed promises, constantly rotating staff which make it impossible to get certain things done, antagonism in wishes/request when trying to affect the world, etc etc. But that's my list.

How to avoid the  sense of 'it doesn't matter'  which will present in each season as the inescapable, fatalistic end would be ever looming?

Why spend so many hours roleplaying - and sometimes really working hard with a character -  pouring hours, days, weeks into shaping their connections, their friendships, plots, when it will be for nothing and they will be force stored right as you begin to get them in a good position in the gameworld.

It's easy for some to pop out characters every few weeks, with entirely new personas and quickly dip into madness and mayhem (and you guys who are able to do that, are brilliant!) .

But not everyone enjoys doing that and a game base is made out of as many diverse players and styles as it is their characters.

Somehow I doubt (might be mistaken.  I'm not actually reading the rest of GDB) that these seasons will be so short that it would prevent the long lifers from finishing their play. Unless one doesn't think that their story was properly played out unless they went past the 1+ rl yr mark.


I think Arm should survive one season change first, before worrying about multiple

Quote from: Dar on December 09, 2023, 10:58:19 AMSomehow I doubt (might be mistaken.  I'm not actually reading the rest of GDB) that these seasons will be so short that it would prevent the long lifers from finishing their play. Unless one doesn't think that their story was properly played out unless they went past the 1+ rl yr mark.


I think Arm should survive one season change first, before worrying about multiple

I think they are walking back on this. They realized another game uses this format, and may emulate them a bit. Giving us longer seasons, and possible chapter breaks. We'll see.

Quote from: Fredd on December 09, 2023, 11:43:50 AMI think they are walking back on this. They realized another game uses this format, and may emulate them a bit. Giving us longer seasons, and possible chapter breaks. We'll see.

A game NONE of us have chosen to play.

Quote from: Miradus on December 09, 2023, 02:19:47 PM

Quote from: Fredd on December 09, 2023, 11:43:50 AMI think they are walking back on this. They realized another game uses this format, and may emulate them a bit. Giving us longer seasons, and possible chapter breaks. We'll see.

A game NONE of us have chosen to play.

I'm the one who proposed to Halaster to do 3 "eras" in a timeline instead of just one shorter season to give players a longer time to affect the world before a wipe. Halaster did not even know what "Legends of the Jedi" was until I proposed that system to him. It's just borrowing one element from other games that have done what they're going for.

Quote from: Miradus on December 09, 2023, 02:19:47 PM

Quote from: Fredd on December 09, 2023, 11:43:50 AMI think they are walking back on this. They realized another game uses this format, and may emulate them a bit. Giving us longer seasons, and possible chapter breaks. We'll see.

A game NONE of us have chosen to play.

Likely because the actual system they have isn't to our taste. We don't want classic mud quests with rpi on top.

We want skills that level with use so growth feels natural, for example.

A format similar to that game could work out well here. And I stand by that.

I also stand by my opinion that this was handled fairly badly. And things would have went smoother with proper timing and preperation.

Quote from: EvilRoeSlade on December 06, 2023, 10:46:48 AMHonestly my biggest worry is the reaction of the playerbase, such as those ragequitting or announcing that the game will die. If you don't give Armageddon a chance, of course it's going to die. Are those long-lived characters that many of us never achieve anyway really so important to you?

You might as well ask if permadeath is "so important" that many of us would quit playing versus play in an Armageddon with characters respawning.

For some of us the world, a never-ending, living, breathing world with threats galore and the promise that, short of bugs, your character's fate was in the hands of player agency is absolutely THE draw. The risks and potential harshness were what made my various character's relationships and experiences and successes and failures so deeply meaningful.

You're framing it as a choice but for me, and I suspect others - it isn't. I'm not deciding to stop playing now out of protest. I've stopped wanting to login because I do not find it possible to give a crap about a character I was really starting to enjoy because I now know an artificial end is coming.

I said in the other thread that I think some people fundamentally fail to grasp why a player like myself always held this game in a special place in their heart. I think your question exemplifies that.

1. We have lost something that, while not perfect, we found satisfactory enough to invest time in.

2. Nebulous promises about what we will get back, and when.

3. A lot of people showing up at the door wanting to steer what we'll get back towards something we never had and was plentiful elsewhere but they never bothered to go get.

I am not hopeful.

The main blessing of this, I find, is knowing that staff will not be able to play characters during the seasons, thus eliminating being able to abuse the power of OOC knowledge to use IG, which has constantly happened, all the way up to this point.

Quote from: EvilRoeSlade on December 06, 2023, 10:46:48 AMHonestly my biggest worry is the reaction of the playerbase, such as those ragequitting or announcing that the game will die. If you don't give Armageddon a chance, of course it's going to die. Are those long-lived characters that many of us never achieve anyway really so important to you? Is the idea of being able to play in multiple timestreams and locations not the least bit enticing?

Absolutely is important to me. I have played 20+ years and always take risk, I've never really had a super duper long lived PC besides 40 days and a couple 15 20 day pcs. With that said, these changes for me atleast gave me a lose of hope to achieve a long lived PC on my current PC. Playing a PC and becoming long lived is 'rare' like you said so yes, why wouldn't people who can achieve long lived be unhappy about this change. I personally don't want to invest my time into something where 'seasons' change and now you lose your PC. I have hardly enough time as it is to log in for fifteen minutes and practice a few things then log out. I think because you are on the other side of not having somewhat long lived pcs you only see it from your perspective which I personally think is a bit indifferent about such. I enjoy arm because I can come back to my PC at anytime, that is why there is a age limit on pcs so they die off etc. Not every PC lives forever. But taking away that ability to achieve long lived? For me at least and I'm not trying to be negative here I'm just being real, it isn't a game I'd stick around playing. For me that is what kept me around, I could take a month or two or even a year off and come back and say 'peek a boo' I still live!

The idea of not being strapped into the trans Siberian railway to entropic heat death of the Known is also something I'd like to remain an idea, also. I expect about 3% of anything said in this thread will eventuate in anything, as with the other shopping chain style slight variations on the Seasonal thread. It's great people are getting it out of their system but history has proven discussion and arguing is a waste of time.

Quote from: Rogerthat on December 10, 2023, 06:25:38 AM

Quote from: EvilRoeSlade on December 06, 2023, 10:46:48 AMHonestly my biggest worry is the reaction of the playerbase, such as those ragequitting or announcing that the game will die. If you don't give Armageddon a chance, of course it's going to die. Are those long-lived characters that many of us never achieve anyway really so important to you? Is the idea of being able to play in multiple timestreams and locations not the least bit enticing?

Absolutely is important to me. I have played 20+ years and always take risk, I've never really had a super duper long lived PC besides 40 days and a couple 15 20 day pcs. With that said, these changes for me atleast gave me a lose of hope to achieve a long lived PC on my current PC. Playing a PC and becoming long lived is 'rare' like you said so yes, why wouldn't people who can achieve long lived be unhappy about this change. I personally don't want to invest my time into something where 'seasons' change and now you lose your PC. I have hardly enough time as it is to log in for fifteen minutes and practice a few things then log out. I think because you are on the other side of not having somewhat long lived pcs you only see it from your perspective which I personally think is a bit indifferent about such. I enjoy arm because I can come back to my PC at anytime, that is why there is a age limit on pcs so they die off etc. Not every PC lives forever. But taking away that ability to achieve long lived? For me at least and I'm not trying to be negative here I'm just being real, it isn't a game I'd stick around playing. For me that is what kept me around, I could take a month or two or even a year off and come back and say 'peek a boo' I still live!

That's a little presumptuous. I've played nobles and templars from creation to their deaths in battle or assassination, as well as a common warrior who clocked in at 40 days by the time they died. On the other side of the equation, some of my fondest memories are of characters that never cleared 10 days. Through it all I've found that a character's death is very rarely entertaining or interactive, it's the life that they had before that makes it all worth it.

Agree to disagree I guess.

Callous and indifferent. Maybe a tinge of hope. Mostly bewildered at the response from the community. I think im too far from it all to see it clearly. I thought I loved this game but some of you are like those people who have been passionately speedrunning a single game for decades.

I will never love this game like you do, and frankly I find your passion a little intimidating and overwhelming to be around.

I moved a bunch of posts that were not talking about their feelings from the upcoming changes to the Seasons to the moderated posts section, but derailing the conversation to speak about specific community members.

Remember:
Be polite.
Be respectful.
Show kindness.
Keep the conversation on topic.
Keep personal information private.
No NSFW content.
Don't bash other community members.

I heavily feel like the way people conduct themselves is the issue and that failing to address this is a non-starter.

I feel... the game has seriously jumped the shark in a wild way. I feel some are delusional about how all this will go down, but I would be fine with being proved wrong.

I've moved on due to having zero interest in "seasons". But every few days I stop in to read the dramas.

Quote from: Inks on December 13, 2023, 05:25:52 PMI feel... the game has seriously jumped the shark in a wild way. I feel some are delusional about how all this will go down, but I would be fine with being proved wrong.

I've moved on due to having zero interest in "seasons". But every few days I stop in to read the dramas.

I had to look up "jumping the shark," but that was exactly how I felt once I realized it wasn't a joke (I was in denial for a good hour thinking there is no way this could be happening, someone hacked Halaster, etc.).

I hope we are wrong. I will stick around until the game close and make a PC when season one starts to see how it goes.

I still do not mind the idea of Seasons. The theory is good, but the execution so far even in just the announcement is lacking.

It sapped my desire even if I didn't think this PC would last a couple months anyway.

While I too have sorta lost desire to play, I'm not gonna lump it all as staffs fault.

It's just when I log on and see 5 people playing, I don't have the desire to even do a training loop, for better or for worse you require other people to be playing or it's just not interesting.  I'll swing on time and time again to see if things have picked back up.

But I don't know if it ever will till the seasons thing starts.

Quote from: Riev on December 07, 2023, 12:02:31 PMI've said it before, I'll say it again:

In an effort to reduce staff workload, staff are adding to their workload and making promises that historically have been difficult or impossible to keep.

I'm not so sure this is the case. I feel you, but in theory, focusing on locales that currently exist, though they be past or future, drastically reduces what has to be built. Allanak could be razed in 100 years, but all you had to do was close some exits and rewrite a few hundred rooms. One person could pull this off in a month (without QC but still). You keep a few clans, and add a few more that are really just a data structure and a copy/paste of a current clan. You need to write maybe 50 new items? Probably less, based on the story taking place in that future version of Nak.

I've written an entire 100-room forest (with little QC to be fair and a lot of copy paste, and some titled but not described animals) and a small 15ish room village in a week of vacation once, along with a few items and shit that fleshed out the policing force for the village (and probably ~10 NPCs too, with arbitrary BGs). If I hadn't had to write from scratch and could have had a basis for a rewrite, I could have done even more faster.

That's by myself. I feel like a future version of Nak could be whipped out in a month and feel decent if a whole team is on it.

I think the concern that some have (myself certainly included) is that all of this is to be done in short order by the same staff that let the game stagnate the way it has. It will require a lot more engagement from them than I've seen signs of in some time, and if they can suddenly do that, it begs the question why they didn't before. It's like a restaurant where ten cooks can't manage to make one dinner in a day, but then they promise they can turn a new leaf and make ten. That task sounds feasible enough, but then why couldn't they even make one?

In the four clans I've been in over the course of the last three years, I have legitimately not seen an animation, an attentive echo, an event initiated, or any other sign that the four different staff members overseeing those clans were even active and putting any time into spicing up the experience for those in the clan. Total radio silence across four different clans, in what will have amounted to something like eighty days of combined playtime. Utep Sun Clan, Valuren, Masterless and Two Moons. Zero animations, zero contact from staff, zero story. Nada. That's to say nothing of the scarcity of general worldwide events to move things forward on a larger scale.

In light of that, I don't think it's unreasonable to be skeptical that there will be a sudden blur of activity to urgently construct a new version of the game. Is the energy and intent there? If it isn't, how will it happen? If it is, where was it up until now? It hasn't felt like staff cared very much about the game as it is. Do you suddenly care a whole lot more now? Now that everyone has quit?

I can definitely see that consolidating the game into a smaller area of play will allow staff to collectively cover more ground. That's simple arithmetics. It makes sense in principle. However, I find that the gamewide effort in the last few years has not been enough to suffice even if Armageddon was reduced to just a single playable location like Allanak. From what I have seen of staff's collective efforts in recent times, across the entire game, it hasn't been enough even for the narrower field that the seasonal model offers. Doubly so if they intend to trim down and rotate staff so that only some are active at a time. Triply so if there also needs to be a whole new chapter built every year or so.

I'd be pleasantly surprised if I'm proven wrong and this all turns out the way it was intended, because the core idea is actually very good- but I can't deny that I would be surprised. For a long time now, playing Armageddon has felt like going to a D&D session where the DM just puts down a map with icons and statblocks for the monsters, tells the players to have fun, and leaves. Then he comes back two hours later to see if the players survived, and if they did, he says well done and see you again next week. It hasn't exactly been inspiring. That hypothetical DM may possess the drive and ability to do much more, but I haven't seen signs of it. I think a lot of players are worried about that.

After learning what most of the staff and players think about me and my gaming here.  I am can not bring myself to log on more the 5 minutes.

Quote from: Wday on December 14, 2023, 06:58:14 AMAfter learning what most of the staff and players think about me and my gaming here.  I am can not bring myself to log on more the 5 minutes.

Did something particular happen with you for you to understand this?


Its just, I dont know who you are. I have zero opinion about you and your gaming here.

Just mean spiteful stuff and I let it hit me in the feelings right now.  I'll get over I am sure.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on December 13, 2023, 09:28:24 PM

Quote from: Riev on December 07, 2023, 12:02:31 PMI've said it before, I'll say it again:

In an effort to reduce staff workload, staff are adding to their workload and making promises that historically have been difficult or impossible to keep.

I'm not so sure this is the case. I feel you, but in theory, focusing on locales that currently exist, though they be past or future, drastically reduces what has to be built. Allanak could be razed in 100 years, but all you had to do was close some exits and rewrite a few hundred rooms. One person could pull this off in a month (without QC but still). You keep a few clans, and add a few more that are really just a data structure and a copy/paste of a current clan. You need to write maybe 50 new items? Probably less, based on the story taking place in that future version of Nak.

I've written an entire 100-room forest (with little QC to be fair and a lot of copy paste, and some titled but not described animals) and a small 15ish room village in a week of vacation once, along with a few items and shit that fleshed out the policing force for the village (and probably ~10 NPCs too, with arbitrary BGs). If I hadn't had to write from scratch and could have had a basis for a rewrite, I could have done even more faster.

That's by myself. I feel like a future version of Nak could be whipped out in a month and feel decent if a whole team is on it.

Its a lot of "can" and "could", from a team that in my personal opinion needs to prove to the playerbase they "will".

I like the staff leading this. I do. But as an organization, "staff" has broken my trust and confidence a number of times. You, @The7DeadlyVenomz may be able to get this done in a weekend. The current staff in charge maybe could, as well, if they were motivated and had the time.

This is, to me, akin to a middling, decent Video Game Developer having some of their best and brightest spinning off into a new company. They are making great promises about taking what they know into this new direction but historically their best game releases are problematic.

Staff could do this well. And in 2025 when this finally has a soft launch, I will likely try it out. My my personal feelings follow a central chord that sings "The players don't know what they want and are beneath us."

Quotemy personal feelings follow a central chord that sings "The players don't know what they want and are beneath us."

As a rule, I generally agree with the first part of that song.  Which makes the second part pretty easy to pick up from various sources, as a feeling.

Have you ever seen someone who drives by following the lines like 10 feet in front of their car?  They stay in the lines, but they are a bit swervy, a bit erratic, react slowly, and don't prepare for things ahead.  Versus how the steady driver drives, keeping their eyes up and looking ahead and registering things as they pass a good amount of time ahead of when it happens.

I'd view that as an analogy in separate instances for both players and for staff.

The difference being there's one Officer of the Law on the road for every thousand motorists doing that.
In Armageddon, there's 1 staff for every maybe 20 players.

If they wanted to reward people for driving in the lines, they would. In my experience, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

@Riev : (<-- Wow, that's a cool feature) ... I can completely understand wondering if it's possible. I kind of wonder the same too.

But I tend to feel that the amount of stagnation in regards to "new IG stuff" was more about navigating the guidelines rather than a lack of desire on the part of the staff. Junior staff has to jump through nearly the same number of hoops to get something new in-game, as players who have wanted to have a clan or build a statue in the desert or whatnot. To be honest, in terms of retaining players' interest, the stringent requirements to change the world have hurt it so much more than almost anything else over the course of the game's life.

I certainly hope the new work is expedited.


who
Immortals
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 0 players currently in the world, other than yourself.

No joke. That's real at 2:30 pm server time (okay, on Christmas Eve Eve).

However, I will say that although I've seen some shockingly low 'who' number recently, I've been pleasantly surprised to have encountered several other characters around, both familiar and unfamiliar.

Quote from: flurry on December 23, 2023, 02:33:25 PM

Code Select Expand


who
Immortals
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 0 players currently in the world, other than yourself.

No joke. That's real at 2:30 pm server time (okay, on Christmas Eve Eve).

However, I will say that although I've seen some shockingly low 'who' number recently, I've been pleasantly surprised to have encountered several other characters around, both familiar and unfamiliar.

Last night I was saddened to see only 3 others on the who list, at around 8:30pm server time.  Though I honor the rules and won't announce it here, it's probably no secret who I play. I'm one of the players who really wants "something I do" in this game, to carry forward into the Seasons version.  Because of the nature of my role, I probably don't "need" other players. I can use the virtual world. But that's not why I play this game.

So a message to those folks who "would" play, who want to play, who are disheartened, and sad because when they log in they don't see anyone on the who list and give up...

Please don't do that.  Please stick around. My role, with my PC, is to facilitate the stories of others. Let me do that. Help me do that, by showing up, and not logging out minutes after you type WHO.

I'm not on staff anymore, haven't been since March. But I've been playing since 2002, and unlike some, am fine to "roll with the punches" and continue enjoying this game. I CAN do it alone. But I really don't want to.

Merry Christmas everyone!

I certainly am not surprised by the low logins. Didn't take a psychology degree to predict that was going to happen. The seeming disregard for players was really palpable to me.

But again, I wish those that remain all the best.

To all you others, hit me up if you want to chat etc. I check this board every week or so now.

Bah!  Humbug!

Quote from: Lizzie on December 23, 2023, 03:29:12 PMSo a message to those folks who "would" play, who want to play, who are disheartened, and sad because when they log in they don't see anyone on the who list and give up...

Please don't do that.  Please stick around. My role, with my PC, is to facilitate the stories of others. Let me do that. Help me do that, by showing up, and not logging out minutes after you type WHO.

Maybe staff should disable hunger and dehydration so people can idle hours common areas.

Quote from: zilcho on December 24, 2023, 09:20:37 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on December 23, 2023, 03:29:12 PMSo a message to those folks who "would" play, who want to play, who are disheartened, and sad because when they log in they don't see anyone on the who list and give up...

Please don't do that.  Please stick around. My role, with my PC, is to facilitate the stories of others. Let me do that. Help me do that, by showing up, and not logging out minutes after you type WHO.

Unless it has been disabled, this exists already. Or did.

Maybe staff should disable hunger and dehydration so people can idle hours common areas.

The low player counts do make me wonder what the game lifespan threshold is for engaging folks to play. Is it 6 months, 12 months? At what point does the termination date of the game discourage players from creating a PC.

It seems important to know if we're switching to a model where there is going to be a timer counting down in the backround.

I've been logging in because I was hoping it would cause people to play recklessly wild PC's in these last weeks, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Quote from: roughneck on December 28, 2023, 07:05:09 AMThe low player counts do make me wonder what the game lifespan threshold is for engaging folks to play. Is it 6 months, 12 months? At what point does the termination date of the game discourage players from creating a PC.

It seems important to know if we're switching to a model where there is going to be a timer counting down in the backround.

I've been logging in because I was hoping it would cause people to play recklessly wild PC's in these last weeks, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Unfortunately, the staff urged players to go ahead and play other games while plotlines were being finished up for players who had plotlines. Unfortunately, many of those plotlines kinda needed other players.  So many of those plotlines are completely dead, and what's left are plots that are really just staff and sponsored role plots.  But the sponsored role characters have nothing to do, and no one to do it with, if staff isn't around.

I think urging players to play something else was a mistake. If players wanted to play something else, that's on them, and that's fine. But pushing them toward that decision resulted in the few who -wanted- to stick around, to become demotivated.

Lizzie. People are not cattle.   "Encouragement" can only go so far. Unless 'lack of encouragement' is a froth at the mouth, eye bulging opposition type of lack of encouragement.


I haven't played the game in years due to certain disagreements. And even I began to keep a closer eye at Arm due to their seasons thing. But I definitely did not bother to create a character in this Arm epoch.  You can't blame others for choosing not to do it either.


People will return when season one opens. Even if it's a bust and nothing actually gets improved, or changed. People will still return. To give it one last try.

I cannot bring myself to play anything in the first place, but in the second place I would not want to play my current PC risky and wild only to die and ... app a new character when the game has 4 players and one month left.

I'd rather finish my character's story in my head. There, it is satisfying.

Maybe if these supposed plotlines were readily apparent to regular players, more would have stayed.

Nobody really cares much about Lady Longskirt's latest festival.

And I really like(d) where my character's story was going but it was kind of riffing off what was happening with other people.

In my headcanon, they are going to "acquire <x> power" and "basically sacrifice themselves to hurt <y> clan". In my head, its done. If I tried to do it in game, it wouldn't be as satisfying.

But also agreed... if there are 'loose end plotlines' to be wrapped up, I get the sneaking suspicion there are about 10 people still playing that would be fine having a RL month to be part of a pre-established plotline that needs assistance. Rather than "Apply today! survive the month of January!"

Quote from: Lizzie on December 28, 2023, 09:44:29 AMI think urging players to play something else was a mistake. If players wanted to play something else, that's on them, and that's fine. But pushing them toward that decision resulted in the few who -wanted- to stick around, to become demotivated.

THAT'S the mistake, was it?

Quote from: Lizzie on December 28, 2023, 09:44:29 AMI think urging players to play something else was a mistake. If players wanted to play something else, that's on them, and that's fine. But pushing them toward that decision resulted in the few who -wanted- to stick around, to become demotivated.

I did my best for the last 10+ years to avoid players out of game and staff in and out of game as much as possible. I didn't decide to stop playing because of some staff recommendation.

Their choices resulted in me not wanting to login to this game ever again because Seasons might as well be Armageddon: Battle Royale to me. I'm still checking every once in a while hoping that someone with some shred of sanity realizes that the game is all but permanently dead, seasons won't save it, and they've decided to do some sort of reboot or something.

I hardly doubt any players let some staff comment about playing other games actually direct their decisions, it's that a large swathe of us feel incapable of caring about a character with a best case scenario of being stored on staff's timeframes.

Its not even worth responding to, @zilcho
It feels to me that its another way to denigrate the actual playerbase.

It was wrong for staff to tell [the fucking lemming players] to play something else. Had staff not suggested to play a different game, [the mindless wandering playerbase] would have stuck around.

And let's be bluntly honest, no one (aside from Lizzie I guess) buys into the "What you do in the game right now will affect the next season" gimmick.

I love the current staff but I'm far from hyped - maybe they're saving it for after the Holidays.

Just a friendly reminder to be kind and respectful towards fellow players. No rules have been broken as far as I can tell, but given the recent influx of activity in the thread I want to urge people posting in this thread to:

- Avoid making comments about criticizing current IC events. There are people behind the characters behind those events and they do deserve the same kindness they were afforded when there were more players playing the game. These comments only become more pointed now that there are fewer active players.

- Respect players' choices to play or not play as the game changes. This is just an offshoot of showing respect to community members in general.

Thank you.

Quote from: CirclelessBard on December 29, 2023, 02:01:17 PMJust a friendly reminder to be kind and respectful towards fellow players. No rules have been broken as far as I can tell, but given the recent influx of activity in the thread I want to urge people posting in this thread to:

- Avoid making comments about criticizing current IC events. There are people behind the characters behind those events and they do deserve the same kindness they were afforded when there were more players playing the game. These comments only become more pointed now that there are fewer active players.

- Respect players' choices to play or not play as the game changes. This is just an offshoot of showing respect to community members in general.

Thank you.

The rules have been broken. It's my turn on the hate cycle, which you've either chosen to ignore, or sincerely didn't notice.

Quote from: Malken on December 29, 2023, 12:57:12 PMAnd let's be bluntly honest, no one (aside from Lizzie I guess) buys into the "What you do in the game right now will affect the next season" gimmick.

I don't really believe anything I have ever done has ever effected the game. The only way that you're going to have your character 'change' anything is if you're already doing something a staff member is writing up for their story line.

On a separate note. I wonder if this whole thing with people not wanting to play the game in the last 1-2 months before character's getting stored to the point where there's frequently zero people playing the game will effect seasons. Who's going to want to make a new character or even play when there's only a month left in the season? Has that even been thought about? This all has made it very very clear that most people don't want to play a game with only a month or so before your progress is deleted and started over agian.

Quote from: Kavrick on December 29, 2023, 02:34:10 PM

Quote from: Malken on December 29, 2023, 12:57:12 PMAnd let's be bluntly honest, no one (aside from Lizzie I guess) buys into the "What you do in the game right now will affect the next season" gimmick.

I don't really believe anything I have ever done has ever effected the game. The only way that you're going to have your character 'change' anything is if you're already doing something a staff member is writing up for their story line.

On a separate note. I wonder if this whole thing with people not wanting to play the game in the last 1-2 months before character's getting stored to the point where there's frequently zero people playing the game will effect seasons. Who's going to want to make a new character or even play when there's only a month left in the season? Has that even been thought about? This all has made it very very clear that most people don't want to play a game with only a month or so before your progress is deleted and started over agian.

I've thought of the idea of "what to do when the season is ending". I know more than a few people practically frothing over the idea of "why would you even make a character".

Depending on the overall plot line for the season, I am HOPING there will be an ending HRPT with the standard "app an AoD Soldier and jump right into the action!" sort of thing. Sure, maybe YOUR particular plotline won't see an ending, but you can still participate in what I HOPE is an overall VISIBLE plotline.

I feel, that the decision to go to Seasons came from a place of wanting to change the game to make it more manageable and worthwhile from staff.  I remember when Halaster kicked it around on the PC, I was for it then, and I'm still for it now.

However, I do think that it feels like the change has been catastrophically bad for the game.  Just the mention of it has sapped the will to play from a seemingly huge chunk of players, myself included.  While I've never been a super social type player, it is a bummer to log in and find two other people logged in but you.  Even though I'm playing the first of a certain type of character this round, that I really wanted to explore, I just can't bring myself to do it via Single Player Armageddon.

If there is one criticism I could levy at staff, it would be that they do not seem to take player desire into their decision making process and tend to be very full steam ahead once a decision has been made.  Like this current one, that I support in theory, it seems to be a blaring failure and has lost quite a few players.

Since some player love to use the unique player count numbers, even thought they are essentially bullshit, I'll refer to them so you have some meter of bullshit-able numbers to go by, three weeks ago 108, two weeks ago 86, this current week 52.

I think and hope that Halaster, Usiku and Brokkr do reverse course on this, because when nobody is playing your game, is it even worth paying for the hosting and shit?

Edit by moderator: Removed rule-breaking content (Community Rule 1)

I don't usually post here, outside of clan boards. I avoid Discord as well - I think OOC communication and the freeflow of game information has hurt the game in ways that it will never recover from. With that aside...

I have been playing since the 90s. I have had the chance to play some very unique and interesting roles. I have played things that people still insist don't/never have existed. I've played roles that shaped Houses and even city politics. I have absolutely made lasting changes in the game with regards to politics, geography, and other areas. Many of these things that I was fortunate enough to work towards and bring forth are visible to the world, even if many players don't realize it. It IS absolutely possible. I know. I've done it. And I am not the only one. Bust most of us aren't vocal on here and don't bicker back and forth. Look for the guys that have been around for decades but have a low post count. Ask their opinion.

As far as my thoughts on seasons...I don't like it. At one time I played characters that lived for less than five days PT on average and then something happened. My PCs started living for RL years, in some cases, and became very enjoyable and engaging. With seasons, I may not be able to do that anymore.

I get my gaming pleasure from a combination of bringing the world to life for other players (by filling a niche, adhering to documentation, and actually trying to play realistically) and by rewards. I love earning titles, accommodations, promotions, and that sort of thing. It doesn't -seem- as if people like me will find much reward in the new system.

However...I am willing to give it a try. I will dig in, like I always do, and play a role that I enjoy and try to both bring the world to life for others and climb my way up the ladder.

Let's sit back and see what Ginka has in store for us now. Who knows - the changes might suck. Or...it might just bring a cool new aspect to the game that we have loved for so many years.

Let's give it a chance. We have little choice regardless, so make the best of it.

Edit by moderator: Removed rule-breaking content (Community Rule 1)

Agree wholeheartedly.

I also begin to think that asking staff to close earlier in order to start up earlier wont work either.  It'll just close earlier and start about the same time it wouldve started anyway.  We dont know their schedule. Some of it might be irl related. 

So play the game if you want to. Or don't. Enjoy sunlight for now :) get some separation from the game so you are more balanced when you return. And hopefully you'll enjoy the game more if you do return.

Reposting this because apparently my entire post was removed for having like 10% of it be response to someone else's post that was edited by moderation.

And again to call back something I've said in the past, the amount of callous apathy in the community has always been a bit of a festering cancer. No one actually cares to understand and empathise with one another, everyone takes shots at eachother and is obsessed with being the one who's 'right'. Anyone who voices concerns is shouted down and any suggestions for change are just demerited with either 'the game has always been like this' or 'you just want the game to be easy'.

As someone who's more recently gotten into MUDs and Armageddon in particular, it's all pretty sad to see. It's very obvious what the causes are but sadly the game is in a bit of a state of lockjaw. The game is very much stuck in the past with an aging playerbase that still wants things to be like they were 30 years ago. Armageddon is a game stuck in the days of 2e Dungeons and Dragons while the majority of the same sort of playerbase that Armageddon should seek to capture is playing 5e. The new player experience is honestly horrific even when compared to other muds and this absolutely archaic obsession with forging quality of life because 'the game is meant to be hard' even though Quality of Life =/= difficulty is just one of the many reasons why this game struggles to attract new players.

Also, moderators, keep in mind when you ask me 'report rule-breaking posts rather than responding to them', what is an isn't a rule-breaking post on the forums has always been incredibly inconsistent.

A friendly reminder that this thread is about discussing feelings on the changes to the game. Show kindness and respect to your fellow community members whose feelings may differ from yours. Please do not dismiss other people's feelings as invalid. Many posters here have been able to express a wide variety of their own personal feelings on the game's changes without belittling the feelings of others.

Sometimes people act irrationally or say silly stuff, it's showing kindness to try and ground them back to reality.

Quote from: Pariah on December 29, 2023, 04:16:16 PMSometimes people act irrationally or say silly stuff, it's showing kindness to try and ground them back to reality.

This thread was created with the intention of allowing people to discuss their feelings on the changes to the game. People are doing that. Statements are either attacks, or they are not. You cannot frame an attack as showing kindness. Please review the community rules, particularly Rules 1 and 5.

Per the moderation guidelines:
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Thank you.

Quote from: Kavrick on December 29, 2023, 04:11:17 PMArmageddon is a game stuck in the days of 2e Dungeons and Dragons while the majority of the same sort of playerbase that Armageddon should seek to capture is playing 5e. The new player experience is honestly horrific even when compared to other muds and this absolutely archaic obsession with forging quality of life because 'the game is meant to be hard' even though Quality of Life =/= difficulty is just one of the many reasons why this game struggles to attract new players.

I wanted to echo your sentiments that with an aging codebase and a niche environment, we kind of ARE stuck in Second Edition. I say that because I have heard a lot of suggestions from the community that are, essentially, DnD 3.5 'feats' (like random feats to add or subtract from your general template).

There are things I would LIKE to see, but it all revolves around DnD/Tabletop being very narrative focused and Arm has not have an overarching narrative for some time now.

Quote from: Riev on December 29, 2023, 04:41:35 PMI wanted to echo your sentiments that with an aging codebase and a niche environment, we kind of ARE stuck in Second Edition. I say that because I have heard a lot of suggestions from the community that are, essentially, DnD 3.5 'feats' (like random feats to add or subtract from your general template).

There are things I would LIKE to see, but it all revolves around DnD/Tabletop being very narrative focused and Arm has not have an overarching narrative for some time now.

Call me pessimistic but I do feel like it's too little too late. I don't really have any faith due to how slow Arm's development cycle is and the complete lack of reliable communication between development staff and the playerbase. I remember way back when I first started playing, I put in a request for a very simple QoL change that was simply 'could we get a command to check what forage types can be used in an area rather than trying each one individually' and was told that it'd be 'added to the list', that was around 10 months ago.

It took 2+ years (from what I know) to finally give 0 karma players extended subguilds, and with the amount of red tape that goes on I just really don't see the game doing a 180. There are things I could give as great example as as to why, but I'm simply not allowed. But the draconian amount of censorship and communication rules is a completely different topic for another time.

So was the point of this to ease the workload on staff by shaking loose many or possibly most of the playerbase?

Or was it to grow player numbers?

I think the latter was my assumption, which has been why I've struggled to understand this choice. Because coming back after a like 5-6 year absence I thought that the average logged in numbers were quite good.

Like, do people think that there's some huge untapped vein of gamers who just can't wait to hop into a text-based permadeath RPI with a gargantuan learning curve and shocking amounts of toxicity amongst a playerbase and sometimes staff? A community where some seem unable to express themselves without wildly disproportionate hostility to even the merest of disagreements?

I guess if it was a desire to reduce workload on staff then that at least makes sense and helps explain the invite-only idea.

What a bummer ending for this game.

If the majority of your playerbase is against the current direction of the game, why wouldn't you pause to reevaluate your plans? Opening up higher roles and giving players access to more control/authority within the game world could have taken stress off staff, more so because there wouldn't be a need for closing off areas or writing changed ones. Automated systems, like the Byn hiring one was a great improvement, the change to analyze another, more qol things like that would have been enough for me. The game should be easy to play as a player, but a challenge for your character.

Quote from: Diesel on January 01, 2024, 01:44:14 PMIf the majority of your playerbase is against the current direction of the game, why wouldn't you pause to reevaluate your plans? Opening up higher roles and giving players access to more control/authority within the game world could have taken stress off staff, more so because there wouldn't be a need for closing off areas or writing changed ones. Automated systems, like the Byn hiring one was a great improvement, the change to analyze another, more qol things like that would have been enough for me. The game should be easy to play as a player, but a challenge for your character.

I never liked the auto-recruit option. What point is there in joining a combat-oriented clan that has no one to train with, no one to give orders, no one to tell you how you're doing, no one to take you on contracts, no one to pay you, and no one to roleplay with?

Even if there is a PC Sergeant who has a crew he works with. If you are never logged in when the Sergeant and the rest of the crew is logged in, all of the above is still true. You're a lone clan member with nothing to do and no one to do it with.

I feel like you missed the point entirely of his post.  It wasn't about the byn auto joining he just mentioned it as an example.

Quote from: Lizzie on January 01, 2024, 02:45:11 PM

Quote from: Diesel on January 01, 2024, 01:44:14 PMIf the majority of your playerbase is against the current direction of the game, why wouldn't you pause to reevaluate your plans? Opening up higher roles and giving players access to more control/authority within the game world could have taken stress off staff, more so because there wouldn't be a need for closing off areas or writing changed ones. Automated systems, like the Byn hiring one was a great improvement, the change to analyze another, more qol things like that would have been enough for me. The game should be easy to play as a player, but a challenge for your character.

I never liked the auto-recruit option. What point is there in joining a combat-oriented clan that has no one to train with, no one to give orders, no one to tell you how you're doing, no one to take you on contracts, no one to pay you, and no one to roleplay with?

Even if there is a PC Sergeant who has a crew he works with. If you are never logged in when the Sergeant and the rest of the crew is logged in, all of the above is still true. You're a lone clan member with nothing to do and no one to do it with.

A Sarge player has rl time to take his crew out on a desert survival ride or sit with one wannabe runner to interview/ give tour. Which would you choose? Also, offpeak Bynners can train together, so you'd at least get the benefits of being in the Byn and have people to spar without having to stay up waiting for a peak sarge.

I miss Aesira and Pathian and whoever did that really cool scene for me with the things that happened with the stuff where I got to go to the place and then meet that one person and use the stuff that did that thing. (Oh heck don't ban me)

Also I miss the scary Templars because this game does scary Templars great ♡ (insert 900 player tears here)

And hot grebbers who die on you after buying you a drink. And the rinth. And the bad guys. And the gemmed that my characters hate but are jealous of. And the pirates I never got to meet.

There were a lot of fun things and I miss that ♡ The game felt a bit impenetrable at times, but I always figured that was because I was a newb but I was just happy to be there. Maybe it was for a lot of reasons. It would be cool if that feeling changed in Seasons with a smaller world for the staff to govern and less wiggly bits to keep from slipping through the cracks.

/feelings

There's so much to miss and knowing it's not really coming back kills my desire to play more than anything. Although recent staff action has pretty much cemented me not playing seasons, sometimes I still log in to see my clan compound be a complete ghost town after all the time and effort I put into playing in the clan. It's fucking sad but this is the bed that Armageddon has made despite all the protest.

My sadness for its current state has been tempered by recent revelations that almost all of the foils for my antagonism for the past 2 years have been either a staff alt or someone being fed inappropriate secrets and support by someone on staff.

Yeah, yeah. I know you fired all those people. But it still is a problem for me.

current feeling: thankful for the good times I had and optimistic that there may be more in the future.

I'm playing Arma 3 again, meanwhile.  I like to get semi-drunk and fly osprey VTOLs beyond the limits of their design specs.  but I do hope Arm comes back.

smooches!
Anhelda Borsail
Filibarth Fale
Stanislaw Sath
and many more...

Fillyourbath!

I spooked Stanislaw once on a [redacted] but I probably still can't talk about it.

I enjoyed it, though!

All story lines are moot, there shouldn't be any rule about talking about events now.

I'm kinda back to the way I use to play the game. I log in, piddle around and do some things to entertain myself and log back out when I am done. Much like I would play any single player game.

I certainly don't play as much as I did before the announcement, but meh. I love and understand the world, and it is something to do. I would recommend if you are done with your character/plots, store and make a fun single player-like character to go explore or try out something new.

Without going into detail, I am no longer playing the character I was before the announcement, just a quiet flavor role that I can log into, change my ldesc to "look like an NPC" and idle around, doing some stuff here and there with him when I need a break from work.  It's quite relaxing.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 04, 2024, 10:42:36 AMI'm kinda back to the way I use to play the game. I log in, piddle around and do some things to entertain myself and log back out when I am done. Much like I would play any single player game.

I certainly don't play as much as I did before the announcement, but meh. I love and understand the world, and it is something to do. I would recommend if you are done with your character/plots, store and make a fun single player-like character to go explore or try out something new.

Without going into detail, I am no longer playing the character I was before the announcement, just a quiet flavor role that I can log into, change my ldesc to "look like an NPC" and idle around, doing some stuff here and there with him when I need a break from work.  It's quite relaxing.

You special app for a sorceror.
I'll special app for a psion.

We'll meet up and be friends.

you just nailed the way I always play, only instead of work I'm simultaneously playing arm and a graphical game

Quote from: Riev on January 04, 2024, 10:57:36 AM

Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 04, 2024, 10:42:36 AMI'm kinda back to the way I use to play the game. I log in, piddle around and do some things to entertain myself and log back out when I am done. Much like I would play any single player game.

I certainly don't play as much as I did before the announcement, but meh. I love and understand the world, and it is something to do. I would recommend if you are done with your character/plots, store and make a fun single player-like character to go explore or try out something new.

Without going into detail, I am no longer playing the character I was before the announcement, just a quiet flavor role that I can log into, change my ldesc to "look like an NPC" and idle around, doing some stuff here and there with him when I need a break from work.  It's quite relaxing.

You special app for a sorceror.
I'll special app for a psion.

We'll meet up and be friends.

Make it a family rolecall and you've got yourself a deal! ;)

In that case you gotta be twins.  Evil twins.  One is lawful evil and the other is chaotic evil.

There were good twins too ofcourse, but you absorbed them in the womb.

So Raistlin and Cameron Majere....Do you need a Tasslehoff?

Caramon.

And Caramon wasn't really a psion. He was a straight up Guild_shitter

But yes. I can play a handsome and healthy psi to FantasyWriter's battered and salty Raistlin so long as you play a halfling thief named Tas who never steals and only borrows.

We'll take on Echri/Takhsis ourselves.

I call dibs on sturm

I'll be Flint.

This is why I know I have a weird vibe with the pbase, because my favorite one out of all of those was Mina. She might be my favorite character in any of those books, and I can't have been alone given the trilogy of books n the Age of Mortals after that which wound up surrounding her.

Quote from: Halaster on January 16, 2024, 12:42:20 PMI'll be Flint.

Good you can die before the Chronicles are over! :)

Or just man up and be Paladine.

Nerds.

I expected to play out the last few weeks of the game, but that was before the player count dropped off the metaphorical cliff. When I couldn't find the other characters I needed to coordinate with, the time investment seemed prohibitive.

However, I did write a bunch of bio entries, and that was a surprisingly cathartic experience. I felt the sense of closure that I was seeking.

Wow. I haven't played this game in years, but I always randomly get cravings to come back to it. There really is nothing like it. I actually have come back to the game a couple times after long periods of time away from it. And I've really been having it pop into my head a lot recently and been considering coming back and writing up a new character. I just saw an email from a few days ago talking about all these changes and started reading more. I must admit, it saddens me quite deeply to see that I can't just come back to this game and get immersed into this world again. I feel gutted, really. I guess I just thought it would always be around. I really hope this works out and there's some form of Armageddon to come back to soon...

I haven't been here in a long time, and while I didn't play long even back then and am not really the target audience for this post, I suppose you could call this some kind of closure after all this time.

I remember back then, when I first joined, everything seemed so magical, it was janky, sure, but there was a certain magic to it. Back in the days of the full guild to sub guild changes being discussed and I believe before they were implemented, back when there were far fewer classes.

I had struggled with the game and life got me busy, although I did feel apprehensive about the sub guild changes...and honestly? Reading through the forums these days, I feel kind of vindicated. While I didn't quite predict the mundane+ nature of the magic users these days, it seems I was on the money about the narrative nature.

The two thirds of a year of darkness I heard about? Really? Unlightable darkness for two thirds of a year? In a world as already lethal as this? The weird attempt at lore on the subclass sorcerer that basically has them risk annihilation for not even delving into the real thing proper?

The issue was always about the screwy nature of magic user gameplay or the results, but wasn't the solution then not to just change it, as opposed to throwing the baby out with the bathwater and removing some of the magic (pun not intended)  of Armageddon MUD?

Everything I read feels almost like trying to overcomplicate a hard to get into game while not really fixing some of the most fundamental base issues. Adding more without really fixing what is already there, and it doesn't seem like the moderation has gotten any better at...interacting with the playerbase.

And that all is before a lot of the stranger changes in the new model, in general I am getting a lot of vibes from projects I've watched fall on their face over and yet over again. To take the words of someone else that put it better than I ever could

"If the majority of your playerbase is against the current direction of the game, why wouldn't you pause to reevaluate your plans?"

Makes me almost wish for some kind of Armageddon branch off or something by a different team...but I know that this will never happen.

Player numbers are lower than ever, the solution according to admins?...make a new game with a less appealing format with an invite only base? What? And on top of that not really considering the player complaints that might mean what few players are still left...wouldn't actually end up playing the new one?

All the troubles with stuff like Scoundrel...I find it hard to imagine nobody could have predicted what would happen ahead of time there either.

And despite claims of wanting to better staff direction, the tone honestly doesn't seem to have changed from when I was last here.

It's been a sad dissapointment to see all this.

Quote from: Ultrastar on April 18, 2024, 04:51:27 AMThe two thirds of a year of darkness I heard about? Really?

No, not really. If by "a year" you mean the game-year of 3 game-months, which is the equivalent of around 7 RL weeks, then no - it wasn't 2/3 of a year of darkness. If you mean a real-life year of 12 months, then no, it wasn't 2/3 of a year of darkness.  It was a couple of RL weeks of darkness, and people with torches and glow crystals could get around just fine.

QuoteEverything I read feels almost like trying to overcomplicate a hard to get into game while not really fixing some of the most fundamental base issues. Adding more without really fixing what is already there, and it doesn't seem like the moderation has gotten any better at...interacting with the playerbase.

Moderation has been pretty awesome lately. Bear in mind you're responding to a thread that stopped being posted in, two months ago.

QuoteAnd that all is before a lot of the stranger changes in the new model, in general I am getting a lot of vibes from projects I've watched fall on their face over and yet over again. To take the words of someone else that put it better than I ever could

"If the majority of your playerbase is against the current direction of the game, why wouldn't you pause to reevaluate your plans?"

And that is EXACTLY what is happening now. The game staff has put the game on pause, re-evaluated the direction it was going in, and are in the process of rolling out a new direction.

QuoteMakes me almost wish for some kind of Armageddon branch off or something by a different team...but I know that this will never happen.

See above.

QuotePlayer numbers are lower than ever, the solution according to admins?...make a new game with a less appealing format with an invite only base?

No, that isn't happening. Someone was brainstorming ideas. That was one of them. No one gave it any serious consideration.

QuoteIt's been a sad dissapointment to see all this.

If you read the staff announcements and the discussion about the new Seasons incarnation of the game, perhaps you'll see a lot of your disappointment is based on things that are not factual.