Let me just start by saying this is not a critique on fellow players or some desire to weaken magick or even lessen its impact on the world. But rather pointing out the damaging flaw to the game ever since the changes to the core magick guilds/classes being made into subclasses along with the later introduction to mundane class changes which combined is now catering to very specific character types regardless of roleplay surrounding said characters. This has been an accumulating issue rather than immediate in that magick's significance has deteriorated due to the Aspect options with the new main class choices. While I feel it's a positive change to bring more variety for mundanes and accessibility to less mundanity, this has overtime shown that everyone and their uncle is an elementalist or is friends with one.
It has watered down the stigma significantly to the point where it feels silly to hate on mages, who at the end of the day prove to be more efficient than their mundane counterparts no matter the task, roleplaying aside. Numerous times there have been attempts to force stigmas on player magickers by NPC/VNPCs and almost always this fails because ultimately player agency triumphs over all. And if players want to have their magickal and mundane characters be friendly/allied then nothing will stop that. On top of the popularity, it has basically ruined a significant part of the game which is mundanes dealing with a world that has powers beyond them. Not only that but it has also reduced player interactions for having to rely on one another.
I'd like to hear more opinions on the matter but my personal solution would be to reintroduce Full Mages to the game, removing the Aspects from play, and keeping the Touched subs as they are. Due to the difficulty to play a full on elementalist, this will organically increase the need for mundanes without nerfing magick and without leaving resentment were mages to be limited roles like psionicists or sorcerers. Not to mention this will likely be the easiest change (aside from forcing behaviors on the playerbase to follow which would be mostly negative) for staff to code into the game while retaining a space for players who enjoy magick and keeping mundanes relevant without forcing gicker stigma or reducing the power of magick.
FYI I love playing gickers and seeing gicks be played but (excuse my saltiness) not when it's basically every other character for no other reason than because it makes you an even better solo character with no contestation. Magick is enjoyable but I feel that it should come with a price at mundanity or limited to Touched because the Aspects just makes it feel like magick is just a straight up buff for the mechanical sake. It should be something that (if you've the karma) you get to enjoy and add to the world with but it ceases being special when it acts as just a boon to your mundane character without any real setbacks but loosely negative roleplay against the character. Sometimes its more stringent than that but it seems like it'd be better for elementalists to fill their niche in the world rather than be forced out of it for bearing the gem. They can be valued and brought along more when they have a purpose without overshadowing mundanes at the same time. It's not like the character would be less powerful just more powerful in a different way while not stepping on the shoes of a mundane.
GICKS ARE AWESOME JUST NOT IN CRAZY EXCESS SO BALANCING IT MECHANICALLY WILL SOLVE THAT ISSUE PERMANENTLY
I think the Aspect Subclasses should be changed to Main Classes.
The Aspect Classes with one of the Extended Subclasses have all the power and utility you need, and would add gameplay balance.
Quote from: roughneck on July 16, 2021, 07:53:36 AM
I think the Aspect Subclasses should be changed to Main Classes.
The Aspect Classes with one of the Extended Subclasses have all the power and utility you need, and would add gameplay balance.
An interesting take on it because I feel like that'd be a bit
too harsh! Having Full Mage classes and just Touched magick subs would be more balanced due to the fact that lesser mages could still exist while more focused ones could too. You are fairly limited as a Full Mage even with a solid mundane subclass yet at the same time for all that power a mundane would still have tools to compete with you aside from the magickal front.
I love mages. Love them. However, I have definitely noticed the proliferation of subclass mages.
And I don't blame a single one of them.
What makes it tough is that when you are playing a mundane, it becomes jarring and/or tiresome when every single fucking one of your friends ends up being a secret or not-secret mage... and then you get looked down on by staff or other players if you don't perfectly tread that line you have to walk when interacting with them. You can't be too buddy buddy, and hating them is absolutely an option while still interacting with them, but anywhere in the middle gets you stinkeye from staff.
There either needs to be a gradual sea change toward accepting that Armageddon is a more magick-heavy game and OOCly permitting mundanes to benefit from having magickal associates (with the appropriate IC backlash from the powers that be) rather than cracking down on them from an OOC perspective. There could also be a simultaneous push toward giving mundane characters coded functions that work similarly to magickal spells so the answer isn't always "send the magicker in!" Think -- grappling ropes to snatch people, code to tie people up, code to blindfold people... let mundanes do the things magickers can do, but in mundane ways.
Alternatively, adjusting or removing a few of the more obnoxious spells would go a long way as a (temporary?) fix.
While I love whirans, I fucking hate the HoW gangbang/cliff drop, just as much as I hated the summon spell. I also fucking hate the relatively risk-free spy spells, since they essentially destroy plots when the playerbase is so small and relies so heavily on information and secrets. However, you're often not given a choice to avoid using those spells. You're ordered to do it, or it's the only way to accomplish a goal because a mundane equivalent can't do it. I don't blame the PCs who resort to those tactics. I just hate the reality of the meta.
I don't have any easy answers, but I do agree on one thing... the state of magick in the game needs to be looked at. I loved the synergy of the full mage classes, and with the change to being able to use weapons while casting, they'd likely be far more workable without having to be unstoppable god mode subclasses... but let's be real... there were still a lot of magickers even when they were full class mages. It's the simple fact that players enjoy playing powerful characters.
The best solution, to my mind, is to flesh out mundane character lists and create new skills as suggested above.
I have a lot of observations on the synergy of the new mundane classes/subclasses if staff would be interested in a write-up, but I wouldn't really want to waste my time if there's no interest in making adjustments, because boy would it take some time.
Quote from: Delirium on July 16, 2021, 08:04:56 AM
I love mages. Love them. However, I have definitely noticed the proliferation of subclass mages.
And I don't blame a single one of them.
What makes it tough is that when you are playing a mundane, it becomes jarring and/or tiresome when every single fucking one of your friends ends up being a secret or not-secret mage... and then you get looked down on by staff or other players if you don't perfectly tread that line you have to walk when interacting with them. You can't be too buddy buddy, and hating them is absolutely an option while still interacting with them, but anywhere in the middle gets you stinkeye from staff.
There either needs to be a gradual sea change toward accepting that Armageddon is a more magick-heavy game and OOCly permitting mundanes to benefit from having magickal associates (with the appropriate IC backlash from the powers that be) rather than cracking down on them from an OOC perspective. There could also be a simultaneous push toward giving mundane characters coded functions that work similarly to magickal spells so the answer isn't always "send the magicker in!" Think -- grappling ropes to snatch people, code to tie people up, code to blindfold people... let mundanes do the things magickers can do, but in mundane ways.
Alternatively, adjusting or removing a few of the more obnoxious spells would go a long way as a (temporary?) fix.
While I love whirans, I fucking hate the HoW gangbang/cliff drop, just as much as I hated the summon spell. I also fucking hate the relatively risk-free spy spells, since they essentially destroy plots when the playerbase is so small and relies so heavily on information and secrets. However, you're often not given a choice to avoid using those spells. You're ordered to do it, or it's the only way to accomplish a goal because a mundane equivalent can't do it. I don't blame the PCs who resort to those tactics. I just hate the reality of the meta.
I don't have any easy answers, but I do agree on one thing... the state of magick in the game needs to be looked at. I loved the synergy of the full mage classes, and with the change to being able to use weapons while casting, they'd likely be far more workable without having to be unstoppable god mode subclasses... but let's be real... there were still a lot of magickers even when they were full class mages. It's the simple fact that players enjoy playing powerful characters.
The best solution, to my mind, is to flesh out mundane character lists and create new skills as suggested above.
I have a lot of observations on the synergy of the new mundane classes/subclasses if staff would be interested in a write-up, but I wouldn't really want to waste my time if there's no interest in making adjustments, because boy would it take some time.
Honestly, 100% agree with a lot of this. I don't think my suggestions would completely fix the issue and yes I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree that I can't blame players for playing gickers. I want them to and I also love playing them too, we really just need more reason to pick mundanes. Maybe those things could be added but I do feel my solution is the simpler one HOWEVER if staff is interested in adding mundane ways to do that (then again wouldn't mages have access to that as well? they'd still have just about as many mundane skills :o) please do!
Returning mages to full guilds and giving mundanes a lot more tricks seems like the best way to go, IMO.
Especially now that you have extended subguilds that give really decent (if specialized) combat skills.
Quote from: Delirium on July 16, 2021, 08:19:26 AM
Returning mages to full guilds and giving mundanes a lot more tricks seems like the best way to go, IMO.
Especially now that you have extended subguilds that give really decent (if specialized) combat skills.
Agreed!
While I agree with strongheart, I do not, on the suggestion posts agree with Delirium. As most the spells in complaint ARE removed from elementalists. And I certainly do not agree with Roughneck as Almost none of the aspect subs are even close to viable as a main. Some of them are barely viable as subs.
I have played 4 of the aspect subs and interacted with most of the rest along with some of the touched. Of the 4, the 3rd one I consider Meh, alright, all the rest sucked, Of the ones I have interacted with, it makes me happy -I- did not play them as I would likely have hated them as much as I hated guile.
So, I agree, get rid of the aspect subs, bring back full elementalist, Keep touched.
Honestly, I just find it difficult to want to play a filthy hard working plebe when we do that all day in the real world, y'know? My escapism is just better with magick and super-powers. I think the best choice here would be to lessen a bit of the ridiculous we hate all witches thing that doesn't actually play out that fun IG when it's hard to meet people as is. I only care about the fun, everything else should be secondary.
If/When I make a new PC and decide to play again, it's 99% percent likely going to be a mage.
Quote from: X-D on July 16, 2021, 08:56:25 AM
So, I agree, get rid of the aspect subs, bring back full elementalist, Keep touched.
8)
Quote from: th3kaiser on July 16, 2021, 08:58:31 AM
Honestly, I just find it difficult to want to play a filthy hard working plebe when we do that all day in the real world, y'know? My escapism is just better with magick and super-powers. I think the best choice here would be to lessen a bit of the ridiculous we hate all witches thing that doesn't actually play out that fun IG when it's hard to meet people as is. I only care about the fun, everything else should be secondary.
If/When I make a new PC and decide to play again, it's 99% percent likely going to be a mage.
The solution I suggested means mundanes are elevated, mages remain as powerhouses but
more exclusively to magick rather than being literal super soldiers that completely outshine mundanes in essentially every way. This would not disrupt power fantasy at all and may even make it more enjoyable if I'm being honest to have a mage who is completely connected to their element. This change of
getting rid of the Aspect subs, bringing back Full Elementalists, and keeping Touched would balance things out while retaining mage awesomeness. This solution would minimize resentment while keeping our beloved mages around (along with their current accessibility) and not reducing their power just focusing on the magick while the mundanes take care of the mundane stuff!
I assume the reason that so many people are picking Mages now is just still because the sub classes are new, they work well, the main classes are really good also, etc etc. It is just overall too tempting for people only a couple of years after they were introduced and even less time since they were just fixed (the expansion of spell lists in a few key mage subguilds was a good fix), so it would make sense to me that they remain popular right now.
I hope that it kind of rebalances later, and I would love to have a second look at some of the mundane sub guilds, or to have more synergies between the sub guilds in the main guilds for mundane people so that there are further benefits of being mundane only. Another way to say mostly agree with delirium, I wouldn't want that sub guilds for Mages to go away, but I would love for the main guildmages options to come back.
Some examples of things that could stand to be improved are the Wilderness kit sub guilds, the possibility of adding specialist fighting skills such as riposte to some of them, the expansion of some skill caps that didn't make sense to me ( such as any skill that is capped at a level of journeyman, which for some skills, like stealing, is nothing more than an elaborate form of suicide) or giving Minstrel a more useful kit, or giving bard the ability to make their own instruments, even adding cultural Flair abilities such as languages or language acquisition abilities to more of the sub guilds, Etc. there are so many reasons why I would want to fix some of the subguilds.
Before I think they were just meant to be like a taste of something added to a character, but just like how the new subguild mages are very functional as mages usually, I would want the most of the mundane sub guilds to also be functional. That should greatly enhance their appeal read aloud true hybrid classing for mundanes. Yeah it might contribute to some power creep, but we've had power creep already.
Heh, I assure you, my next PC will be full mundane, and if the magick subs stay around just the way they are (other then touched) It is unlikely I play another...Well, other then the single one I think is alright, but even that is not a near future thing. But do I think things will rebalance player wise to a more mundane side...Um no. Not with current metrics.
Quote from: X-D on July 16, 2021, 09:21:13 AM
Heh, I assure you, my next PC will be full mundane, and if the magick subs stay around just the way they are (other then touched) It is unlikely I play another...Well, other then the single one I think is alright, but even that is not a near future thing. But do I think things will rebalance player wise to a more mundane side...Um no. Not with current metrics.
I agree completely. It's been magick-heavy for three or so years now? Likely longer than it ever was with full mages.
I'll start off by saying that I agree with Strongheart - it really would be great to have the full mage classes back while retaining the touched sub-classes.
I also whole-heartedly agree with other posters in this thread that having aspects as sub-classes just takes away from the uniqueness and utility of mundane classes.
On the matter of increased mage presence, IMO, there are several things that need to be factored in (per my thinking of course) :
1) Aspects are sub-classes now, with full mundane classes to support them - so they're not as likely to die as a full mage with one of the older sub-classes.
2) The Karma system was revamped from 8 points to 3 points, thereby opening up a much larger portion of the playerbase to opt for magick full classes, and possibly why it was decided to shift full mage classes to aspect sub-classes.
3) Although the idea was to move Arm towards a "low magick" theme, the combination of change in the Karma system and the introduction of aspect sub-guilds, has ironically thrust the game into a far more magick-prolific scenario.
I don't think the re-introduction of full mage classes will be practically feasible without moving back to the older Karma system, or an entirely new yardstick altogether.
All things said, if full mages are being brought back, lets get all 7 classes back please!
I would rather have just the first 4 but with the spells stole by the other 3.
Never mind, just rambling. I'll leave this to people who are playing.
Edited
We have enough gicks. We need more gick killers.
I would like to see a reduction in mage characters as well. How that is accomplished isn't really important to me, it's just jarring for me playing a mundane character as I feel like instead of encountering a mage being an actual big deal, it feels more like "Oh great, so-and-so is yet another mage I need to avoid." Nevermind that it feels like it greatly reduces the number of characters my mundanes can interact with.
People who play mages maybe don't feel like this is a big deal, and maybe some of them want or expect more interaction from mundanes than they should, but for some people who play only mundanes, this issue is a BIG DEAL. It's a bigger deal depending on where you play. It's gotten to the point where I'm reluctant to even let my characters befriend people because every other new person is probably yet another secret mage.
On one hand - we want players to be able to play and enjoy the game with whatever character type they want to play. (within reason, world scope, etc)
On the other hand - when the appearance is that there are too many of one type of character type in an area of play, it tends to wreck the worldbuilding experience and why we play.
Currently, there's the "karma regeneration" system in place that helps limit the number of consecutive magicker characters a player can create. This is one way to limit the volume of magickers - by having a rule we all agree to and has a time gate to it.
In my opinion, the playable stories we allow magicker characters to take part in tend to pigeonhole their progression and we prune off potential storylines of these characters. It's like we funnel their creativity down and force them all to play a certain type of character in a certain area of play. ...which leads to the feeling that there's too many magicker characters in a certain area of play BECAUSE we've forced their players to pivot their characters into that area of play. Why do I only find Travel magickers in the middle of the wilderness and why do I only find Darkness magickers in the dark tunnel systems. Why are dwarves always Empowering Magickers who are fighters in the Byn?
I think it's both an imagination problem AND a systemic 'where can play be found' problem. A potential solution would be to open up more areas of play to magicker characters. Another potential solution would be a hard limit of characters in game on the subclass choice itself, so that there can only be something like 5 travel whirans alive at any point in time.
I wonder if giving some toys to mundanes to play with might shift the balance a bit. Maybe allow mundanes to learn mundane skills faster, or increase the skill caps for mundane skills used by mundanes a bit, or give mundanes a small boost to one or more attributes.
Though I don't know, maybe that wouldn't actually motivate people to play mundanes more. Maybe people just want extra toys to play with more than they want increases to their existing abilities.
I will say this. I don't think redoing the magick system or classes available yet again will do anything helpful for the game, on it's own, and I do not want to reduce the number of people playing because of some mage cap (I used to be in favor of this, and still am for clans, but not for magickers anymore).
I think giving mundanes things they can do that mages struggle with is an exceptional idea. Actually ... what if nothing changed but for the fact that mages couldn't be great at their main class anymore? Just a simple check, the same one that triggers whether or not someone can look at you and know you're a mage? When that triggers, you're half as good as you can be at your main class skills?
There's things like more materials offering magick resistance, or more materials reducing mana, or more locations that are anti-magick fields, or the planes bleeding over to restrict mages from accessing certian locations, etc, that would all help create a mundane/mage dependency.
What we're wanting to do is make playing a mundane not seem quite so useless in some cases (I will say this, though. A proper group can make mundanes and mages mesh pretty well, so at least some of this is players getting players to buy into the lore and stigmas a bit in order to create a certain environment.). I've never really felt like that, but there have been times when I've come close to feeling like that, and I understand the feeling.
Realistically, the most ideal situation from a game design perspective would be that there is one part of the game that mages deal with, and another part that mundanes deal with, and then a third part they both deal with. Create dependencies between the two, as well, and you can have this tense "I don't have to like you, but I need you" relationship that is really what we're trying to go for with both parties.
I think there are several trains of thought here that are irreconcilable. There are players that will not play mundanes, or play period, while their karma is regen-ing. Its possibly this segment of the population added to those that are actively playing magickers (by staff accounts 1/3rd of the population in a random snapshot) that are better served by more playable, self-reliant, buffed up magicker characters.
A slow creep of magickal related plotlines, and a seemingly more magick-forward world, is the logical outcome of a 1/3rd of the playerbase playing magickers - and players basically saying (by their playstyle and character choices) that the magickal aspect of the game is the only thing that keeps them coming back. One anecdote was "after playing the game for 20 years, playing a regular warrior is boring", or as thekaiser said above, he wants to come to play a superhero. It would be a hard press to appease those players, while also addressing the gripes of mundanes of having to deal with too many magickers. And so any sort of depowerment at this point is likely a nonstarter.
The outcome is a sacrifice of realism. More magicker PCs at a given establishment than mundanes makes its hard for the mundane to implement the realistic social stigmas. And as someone else said, it becomes exhausting as a player when there's a 50/50 chance that anyone you interact with regularly is going to end up being a magicker after maxing all their mainguild skills in the Byn, or some other noble or merchant house.
The suggestion would "be the change you want to see", like create more mage-hunters, play up that social stigma yourself. But this is exhausting, and likely if you formed a mage-hunter group, by the time you were trained up enough to actually hunt mages, one of your buddies would manifest, or you'd just be a severe power-gap.
Its not fun that the onus is on the lower-karma, no-karma to enforce how the world should react to magickers; magickers with 3 karma are supposed to have the trust, responsibility, and world-know how to make the game more engaging, create plots, and keep things going. The best suggestion (Delirium's) is that maybe there just needs to be a "change toward accepting that Armageddon is a more magick-heavy game".
Quote from: Fernandezj on July 16, 2021, 01:58:14 PM
The best suggestion (Delirium's) is that maybe there just needs to be a "change toward accepting that Armageddon is a more magick-heavy game".
The problem with that is that the role playing limitations are, currently, the only advantage a mundane has to a magicker. If you remove those rp limitations you leave mundanes in the dust in every way that really matters. A lot of people say that Arm isn't balanced, but honestly that's not the right way to look at it. Arm has /some/ degree of balance. Heavy crafters will never fight as well as heavy fighters, and vice versa. If you're the best at one thing, you can't be the best at something else... At least as far as mundanes go.
But casters don't have this limitation. The only thing holding back a caster from just being better, all around, than a mundane is that using magick has in world consequences that might be detrimental.
I'm fine with, and am even in favor of, changing how casters are treated in the world to reflect the reality of what players want to play. What I'm not interested in is just leaving mundanes in the dust along every axis. This would have two repercussions; Everyone that could would play mages. Anyone that couldn't (because they're a new player with no karma, or an old player that spent their karma and died unexpectedly) would just have characters that couldn't do nearly as much, likely through no fault of their own.
Removing the aspected subguilds and keeping magick to full guilds would solve the bulk of these problems.
A. Magick would still be there, unrestricted. Infact it'd be even more powerful magick-wise considering the full guild elementalists get *more* spells, appealing to the type of players that exclusively enjoy that kind of stuff. ESGs/SGs would still be able to be selected, so they aren't completely useless except for gickery anyhow.
B. It'd remove the fact that mundanes at the moment, are just unabashedly mechanically inferior to magickers. It'd encourage cooperation, however nasty it'd be. You can't survive on your own as a full guild magicker without alot of effort, and it's easier to get a buddy that can give you tubers instead of just doing it all yourself without any interaction whatsoever.
C. At the moment, a mundane has plenty of reason to just be ignored by a Templar. But a gicker? They can instantly be thrown into the action, simply because of their aspect and gem. If you remove the fact that magickers are mundane+, then plot drivers and leaders have much more reason to rely on their mundane servants instead of just using purely magick for their (nefarious) purposes. Why would you bother with a person that isn't gemmed, cannot be controlled, and is just generally weaker in every way, as a Templar?
D. It'd lower the oversaturated amount of gickers in the gameworld right now. Playing a gick wouldn't be you playing a ranger that can throw fireballs. It'd be you playing a gick, and with everything that entails. Being a -badass- magicker would mean something greater, and they'd be much much rarer to see. It'd show how magick should be portrayed in Zalanthas. It's supposed to be rare, dangerous, and powerful. At the moment, a gick is so common to see, most mundane PCs hardly even get repulsed. Can you blame them? I certainly can't.
Whilst it would mean reverting all the work on the aspected SGs, it'd help along the game world in a beneficial way. Sacrificing the 'low fantasy' of Arm isn't worth it, because Arm would lose so much of it's uniqueness. Personally, if the docs/setting was changed entirely to let magickers be normal, I'd also play a magicker instead of ever playing a mundane. Because why not? Nothing to lose from it.
It'd just be desert dudes slinging fireballs and magic missiles at each other, which is a common trope in just about every other fantasy videogame. Not to mention, in most of these fantasy videogames, the magic wielders have down-sides. They are usually flimsier or somehow disadvantaged in their own ways, leading them to have to rely on their non-magical sword and shield wielding compatriots.
In conclusion - make the game less like Final Fantasy. Make it more like Armageddon. This game has it's own niche, and it shouldn't have to be ruined entirely just to accommodate unbalanced subguilds.
So, first off, I do want to say that the thread's title is something I take issue with. Mages are fun! Armageddon is fun. The goal here should be to make others have more fun, not mage players have less fun instead.
Let's start off with some statistics, so we're all on the same page. Aromit compiled these from a random month in 2020, and he said he'd removed some of the more spoilerish options from it; I think it safe to assume that there'll be sorcerers and psionicists around, too, but here's the list:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304236792750538752/851292522395074580/unknown.png)
So. With that in mind, there's a couple of issues that I'd like to see attention paid to:
1) Gemmed are a stifling and painful presence to deal with
Magickers are dangerous. More dangerous, though, are magickers with official sanctions, impenetrable places to train, and trigger-happy handlers. Gemmed Team Six has been a bit of a gdb meme for years now, and OOCly, Gemmed are a solution in search of a problem: there are many of them around and not so many things they should be doing. For Gemmed, templars' orders are do-or-die situations you were never involved in and that you don't care about. You are a minion they didn't need to work to acquire, are expendable to, and can't escape their reach without fleeing extremely far away. For the subject of gemmed wrath, you are hounded by magickers of various brands who you can't really hit because HAHA good luck infiltrating the vivaduan temple, scrubbo. It isn't a fun dynamic in either direction, and I much prefer that leaders have to work for minions, as well as some opportunity for the game's tagline to shine. Gemmed ain't that.
The obvious solution would just be to axe gemmed completely, likely do the same with declared mages in Luir's, and make templars deal with magickers on the downlow like anything else. This would be a drastic change, but not one to make magickers unplayable; plenty of them are rogues even now. The other change would be to either declare all gemmed Oash's job, or to make directing them the avenue of red-robed Templars only. As-is, blue robe players getting a half-dozen maxed out magickers at their command really is an issue I don't believe is healthy.
2) No clans are magick, but some are less magick than others
Some clans, such as the Allanaki templarate or some tribes, employ certain magickers freely. Some clans, like the GMHs, don't employ them but get to deal with them a bunch. Some clans, which I don't care to mention, aren't supposed to use them at all. It was most notable when Tuluk was open, and you'd occasionally just have magickers wreak havok on the population of a city unable to respond in kind. Things nowadays aren't quite as lopsided.. But even so, it's noticeable when it does happen, and the game turns from bone swords vs bone spears to gatling guns vs whiffle bats.
Solution: I don't know about this one all too much. I'd appreciate for the mundane side of some clans to be buffed, or even just for mundane means of anti-magick to actually exist. Getting swarmed by whirans and rukkians when you have none of your own is a damn pain, and giving rank-and-file clannies a way to fight magickers that are mundane in nature would be nice.
3) Magick offers little counterplay, and IC ignorance makes this worse
Most people reading this thread will have seen what goes on, but I still can't name specific spells. Even so, not all mages are created equally, and some bring stuff that mundanes can't come close to match or even fight. Whirans and drovians are the biggest culprits here; both magickers have ways to disrupt, harass, and kill mundane characters that the latter can't counter without highly specific domain knowledge, which PCs aren't often supposed to have. The result is one where you either metagame intensely to be safe, or become easy prey for either such mage - let alone the others, who are powerful in their own ways too.
Solutions: Drovians were outright removed for a good while, and this didn't break anything, so I'd not mind seeing the aspect responsible for much grief taken out of the game. Whirans, likewise, have travel-related spells that are fine, and PvP-related spells that.. Aren't. If we don't want to nerf or remove anything, though, can we PLEASE have avenues for mundane PCs to learn a bit more about how to defend themselves from such threats? And can we PLEASE have more such avenues exist? As-is, I've been in mundane clans where we knew drovians were haunting us, and the solution boiled down to 'just Way your friends because yeah nothing is safe.' It wasn't a fun dynamic, and I'd like to see less of it.
4) The north hates magickers except there is no way to enforce this
As the title says, magickers have free reign in the north, which is a fantastic area, and any local trying to live as they would just gets whooshed by one windy boi. This has been the case for a decade and it's.. Not great.
Solution: This is a big one, but it'd be fantastic, and I hope it'll be the result of tomorrow's PBRPT: turn everything from the span to the thornlands into a dead magick zone. Elementals, buffs, curses, sorcery, nilazi, everything: it just goes away, and cannot be used while present. You have the entire gameworld to play with, but over here you're as mundane as anyone else. Cheers :)
I was discussing this a little more and I think we've identified one of the major contributing factors:
Oppression of magickers needs to come from the top-down. If Templars and nobles are supporting, valuing, or utilizing mage players and punishing mundane characters who speak out against them or who protest their usage in accomplishing objectives-- especially objectives that could have been pursued by mundane means, albeit with a bit more risk-- it forces mundanes to risk disagreeing with, speaking out against, or disobeying the Templarate or the nobility, which carries severe consequences. That puts mundane characters in an unfair position-- either they try to reinforce the gameworld lore and in all likelihood suffer severe consequences, or they're forced to accept magick usage.
It becomes a tug-of-war between the pragmatic coded utility of mages and their subsequent value to accomplishing what high-level characters want to accomplish, and the documentation PCs in power are supposed to be enforcing and representing.
All too often, the utility of mages wins out. IF staff wants magickers to be distrusted and/or reviled by the majority of the player base, then a) mundanes need to be made more useful (see: being able to accomplish coded things that can currently only be accomplished through magickal means), so that mundanes aren't seen as a sub-par solution to problems, and b) oppression of magick users needs to come from the top-down. All too often, mundane characters are NOT in the position to force the gameworld to react how it should to a proliferation of magick usage, and suffer unreasonable consequences for it.
An important thing to decide, currently, is this: what role does staff want to see magick play in the gameworld, both from a lore standpoint and a gameplay standpoint? Should we loosen the stigma against magick, or should we keep it as-is? What would be best overall for the health, playability, and fun of the gameworld? Then, how do we enforce that view? If magick is to be oppressed, then that needs to be supported by the players in position to oppress magickal characters. Normal, run of the mill commoners can only add flavor to that, they cannot reinforce it in the gameworld.
Players of Templars, Nobles, and other people in power have a responsibility to reinforce the virtual world, and sometimes that means not taking the easy win. Sometimes that means taking risks and choosing mundane solutions over magickal-- but sometimes they're put in the position, due to plots they are involved in, where magickal means ARE the solution. That's okay, because mages need things to be involved in, as well-- but when magickal PCs become the default go-to, something's broken.
There is plenty for mundane character to do and be involved in, but all too often, mundanes end up being, or at least seeming, like the red-shirts of the Bigger Plots, whereas the magick-augmented characters are the heroes of the day. When a long-lived, top-tier fighter character can simply be <redacted> into <redacted> and killed instantly, the question becomes: why bother playing a mundane, unless you're doing so purely to be a red-shirt and are prepared to die?
Too me a lot of this comes down to potentially a numbers issue. Nerfing mages or reducing options almost always consistently leads to more player loss in watching games throughout the years.
I agree I hate when mundanes get punished ICly for disliking magickers. I've seen it happen that Lord so and so gets upset that someone said bad words to their pet magicker. IMO that sort of thing HAS to stop, if you want magickers to be feared and disliked. You can have IC penalties for fearing and disliking them(Not to say anyone's free to damage a Lord or Templar's pet or anything.)
I haven't played the sub guilds yet. I personally think they look like great options though and would hate to see them go, though do understand the concern people have with having magick and a full main guild along with it. To me I think the sub guilds actually look more interesting and playable then the full guilds ever did, and removing them is a bad choice.
Well, I think one real question here is ... do we really want magickers to be feared and hated throughout the entire game world? Do we really want to create more segregation? Personally, I don't.
I do agree with a lot of the ideas concerning how you keep mages down, but I don't want mage players to run out of stuff to do either.
I don't dislike the idea of a magickless North. That was clever, and certainly it could be written into the story.
I don't wanna kill magick plots. I don't wanna reduce the fun for magick players. I don't want to really see magickers all in one clan, either. I don't want to nerf them, really, but I don't want mundanes to be just hapless in the face of all magick, because that's the main issue being brought up here.
I think you can introduce ways for mundanes to level the PK field with mages.I think you can create things that a mundane has the talent to do that mages don't. I think the idea of a devastated land like this having magick-dead zones is a splendid idea. One of the best ideas for locales like this could be relic zones. I would be happy to see psionics get dragged into this balancing act, too.
I do not want to see mages just get squashed. I do want to see a world where mages have their field, and mundanes have theirs, and then there's a field that they both see use on. But I don't want to create a situation where I can no longer work with mages in a sanctioned environment. That's no fun for me, and that's no fun for the game.
^^^^ what that guy said.
I want to reiterate that I like magick. I just want to see mundanes be equally useful and desirable to play, even if for different reasons and in different arenas. Things that mundanes can accomplish that magickers simply cannot.
How, I'm blanking on right now, but I'm sure the collective creativity of the playerbase can come up with something.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 16, 2021, 03:20:08 PM
I do not want to see mages just get squashed. I do want to see a world where mages have their field, and mundanes have theirs, and then there's a field that they both see use on. But I don't want to create a situation where I can no longer work with mages in a sanctioned environment. That's no fun for me, and that's no fun for the game.
This sentiment precisely. If I wasn't clear before then I will be now: I ADORE magick, I ADORE playing magickers, and I ADORE seeing those roles being played. There has been a handful of ideas here that I am loving, and I just want to say that my solution seems like the easiest to implement as is, which is all I'm getting at. However, it does seem like everyone is aware of the issue more or less, and recognizing there's an problem to begin with is always the first step in solving it.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 16, 2021, 03:20:08 PMDo we really want to create more segregation? Personally, I don't.
When I see a common max players of 20 at any time. And we have a large game world. I think this is something to consider.
So, idea number one, assuming we kept everything precisely like it is now class-wise.
Until you cast your first spell, everything functions exactly like it does now. When you cast your first spell, in order to create your mana pool, random amounts are deducted from your Hitpoint/Stun/Movement pools to create it, thus "glass-jawing" you some.
Ex. |100 hp/ 100 stun/ 100 move| becomes |60 hp/ 70 stun/ 72 move/ 98 mana|.
Not an utterly serious suggestion, but it creates some concern for the mage.
I think the solution should be less about restricting players from playing mages, and more about making things that mages actually have to worry about.
There is a poison that drains stun, there is a poison that drains stamina, there is a poison that drains health, but I know of no poison that drains mana.
Are there any wild beasts that are overtly/only aggressive to mages? What would a mage-predator look like? Would they even be dangerous to a mundane?
Quote from: lostinspace on July 16, 2021, 03:54:03 PM
I think the solution should be less about restricting players from playing mages, and more about making things that mages actually have to worry about.
There is a poison that drains stun, there is a poison that drains stamina, there is a poison that drains health, but I know of no poison that drains mana.
Are there any wild beasts that are overtly/only aggressive to mages? What would a mage-predator look like? Would they even be dangerous to a mundane?
There is a poison that paralyses mages as surely as it does mundanes - peraine. If you can get a shot off, people die, mage or no. The issue is everything leading up to that point more than anything else.
QuoteWell, I think one real question here is ... do we really want magickers to be feared and hated throughout the entire game world?
Yes, thats supposed to be how it is. If its not, then things should be updated to reflect the reality that people choose to just not play this aspect.
The issue is, this is not the case, its actually the opposite. There's lots of acceptance, and tolerance, for whatever reason: "Oh I knew them before they manifested", "they are the only players on when I play", etc, etc. Which goes back to... if the case is that magickers are going to be accepted because of whatever OOC realities, then the gameworld needs to catch up.
The mana drainer is a good idea, but that really pertains to killing people. To some extent so does anti-mage armor, and a number of other solutions. I don't want to see this just be a primer on how to kill mages to even the power gap. It should be something about how we create need between the parties.
I like the idea of creating needs between the parties, which is part of why I like the idea of "dead zones", or even, "unreliable zones", where your magick might work, or it might not. You could tie the moons to magick more, or at least certain elements or powers. There's a ton of ways to make magickers need mundanes, and visa versa.
But need isn't the same thing as want. You don't have to want, to need. As long as the mages need mundanes, a ton of the original concern posited in this thread is solved. Mundanes could always need magickers for x, y, and z, but if the mages need mundanes for a, b, and c, there's that purpose that mundanes get all of a sudden in the grand scheme of things, besides just Red Shirting.
That example of anti-magick beasts is a pretty good one. If the glitter-shell gurth automatically bypasses magickal defense and is uber aggressive to mages, they're gonna need you to come clear the trading route for them. If that same shell makes anti-magick armor, that's a lose-lose-win? for the mage in getting the gurth cleared.
Quote from: Fernandezj on July 16, 2021, 04:11:15 PM
QuoteWell, I think one real question here is ... do we really want magickers to be feared and hated throughout the entire game world?
Yes, thats supposed to be how it is. If its not, then things should be updated to reflect the reality that people choose to just not play this aspect.
Mmmm, I kinda think you can have a society (like Allanak) that doesn't feel the utter hate and fear that the rest of the world feels. In that society, you can have mundane people and mages work together for groups, without pretending that they are breaking a rule or something. You can still mistrust mages, and you can be concerned with being around them. Maybe you quit your job because you don't like them. But if I don't quit my job, and I do work with them, in the framework of what
I think Allanak really should be, I'm still just average Joe.
I also think that one has to be careful about assuming that working with a mage equates to liking them/not being afraid of them, but then again, presentation is a part of reality.
I just don't like forcing people to not interact in any way but for segregation, especially as we seek to create opportunity and reason for players to play together and not just sit in their compound/temple/apartment.
One of the questions I have is: What kind of game do we want to have and play in?
ArmageddonMUD is advertised as a "grim low fantasy permadeath RPI". However, most Story plots for the game involve high magic or psionics in some aspect.
When I think Low Fantasy I think Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, or Conan the Barbarian. Magic does exist in these worlds, but it is grotesque and rare, and the practitioners of it are considered incredibly dangerous and insane. Plots do involve magic in these worlds, but it is often to point out how unpredictable, two-sides, and dangerous magic is, with magic often being the real threat to the practitioner who has hubris or gives a villain monologue speech while the magic or magical artifact is turned against them. In essence, magic in a low fantasy setting is rare and when utilized is for a specific storytelling point. Otherwise, plots are entirely mundane.
I have found since the aspects went in, an increasing "mission creep" of High Fantasy elements into the game world. Be it flashy shows of Templar's to focus on Defilers in a region with no feasible defense beyond luck, when Magic is around it either creates or solves problems. Any issue that can be tackled by a mundane could likely be better tackled by a mundane+magic.
I find I personally don't enjoy this direction. I don't enjoy magic users being ignored or given a long leash. I don't like seeing them treated on a similar playing field as mundanes. It isn't what I signed up for with the games advertisement. I prefer mundane plots 9/10, but the chances of a plot not being intersected by someone manifesting as a magic is quite low these days. It seems every other PC I meet is secretly a mage.
What I would like to see is some quantification of this beyond anecdote. How many PCs in a given span of time (say last year) are magical in some way? How many are pure mundane?
Quote from: Veselka on July 16, 2021, 04:20:54 PM
What I would like to see is some quantification of this beyond anecdote. How many PCs in a given span of time (say last year) are magical in some way? How many are pure mundane?
Quote from: Patuk on July 16, 2021, 02:38:23 PM
Let's start off with some statistics, so we're all on the same page. Aromit compiled these from a random month in 2020, and he said he'd removed some of the more spoilerish options from it; I think it safe to assume that there'll be sorcerers and psionicists around, too, but here's the list:
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304236792750538752/851292522395074580/unknown.png)
-people die, mage or no.
Maybe poison was a bad example, because anyone can freely utilize peraine, mage or not. What I want are things that are harmless to mundanes, and dangerous for magickers. If a mage and a mundane are fighting, they're both going to want to pull out peraine daggers. The mage is likely in a better situation, as they can shoot fireballs to tilt the scales, something the mundane just can't do. I want the mundane to have the option of, I don't know, hanging out in a silty area because they know magickers that go near there start violently coughing their lungs out.
As long as magick-subguilds exist, giving main-guilds tools is also the same thing as giving magicker-subguilds tools. Magickers get access to a bunch of coded boons/abilities that mundanes don't. Instead of asking to have those coded bonuses removed, I'm asking for the addition of coded negatives that they have to worry about. Both for instances of PK/PVP, but also added to the game world in the form of magicker-poisonous plants, magicker-aggressive creatures, and as someone else brought up, magick dead-zones.
Agree 100% with Veselka. I don' think the issue is that magickers need more ways to interact with mundanes collaboratively, that just reduces societal aversion/stigma (one of the few things I think keeping numbers down).
The issue, at the start of this discussion, is that too many people are playing magickers because of all the advantages, so they are seemingly everywhere. And that "It has watered down the stigma significantly to the point where it feels silly to hate on mages". Making it more acceptable to be a mage, will only increase this problem.
A third of the players being magickal is too many, and this exists because there are no real negatives to playing one other than "you become a tool of the templarate if gemmed" or "have a slightly harder time making friends".
If its as simple as "this is the reality of the gameplay setting", and that magick is more prevalent in the world, and people should be accustomed to more varied interactions and acceptance, then a simple documentation update could cover this. Instead of "Magick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas, about which the general public knows very little, and generally fears and hates a great deal." you could have:
"In recent years, a higher prevalence of magick mainfestations in the world have seen traditional views towards magick shifting.
No longer utterfly feared and reviled, magickers find some status in communities based on their benefit... etc. etc."
Instead of: "In many places, magickers are killed upon discovery, and even the rumor that one is a magicker can lead to one's death.":
"An elemental disposition, the rumor of which was once a death sentence, no longer precludes many from living normal lives..."
I don't want the game to go this way, but I'd like it to be consistent with the background and setting. Which it currently is not.
Quote from: lostinspace on July 16, 2021, 04:24:31 PM
... magicker-poisonous plants, magicker-aggressive creatures, and as someone else brought up, magick dead-zones.
A pitch-black, ruby-eyed spider pops into existence next to the wiry, magicky-looking man.
A buff mundane woman fails to protect the wiry, magicky-looking man.
A pitch-black, ruby-eyed spider bites the wiry, magicky-looking man on the neck, wounding him.
A buff mundane woman rescues the wiry, magicky-looking man.
A buff mundane woman dodges a pitch-black, ruby-eyed spider.
A buff mundane woman slashes a pitch-black, ruby-eyed spider, doing horrendous damage.
A pitch-black, ruby-eyed spider pops out of existence in a folding of space.
The wiry, magicky-looking man says, in magicky:
"Quick, we've got to get going. It'll be back at any moment, and I can't defend against those accursed mana-spiders."
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 16, 2021, 04:32:22 PM
The wiry, magicky-looking man says, in magicky:
"Quick, we've got to get going. It'll be back at any moment, and I can't defend against those accursed mana-spiders."[/tt]
I mean, https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Nilazi
Guys, it's the magick subguilds. We don't need complicated coded changes or to remake the cultural setting. All that's needed is to make players choose between being a mage and being an excellent warrior, rogue, or ranger.
The fact that the class system does not force you to make these choices is the culprit of the "everyone's a sekrit magicker" disease. There's no longer a real trade-off for selecting taboo and reviled magickal power for your character. It's the min-maxer's choice for coded power for nearly every character concept ranging from rinthi beggar rogue to thickheaded Byn warrior to tribal wanderer of the wastes. The players who only want to play magickers are not the problem, and trying to make them do something else through direct or indirect nerfs is only going to drive them off. It's the people who want to play something else and then can add on full magick at no cost who have lead to magicker inflation.
I think the suggestion of removing all of the magick subguilds except the touched and reinstating the full-magick classes (maybe tweaked to match the class revamp) is really the best and first option that the game should look at.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on July 16, 2021, 05:06:55 PM
Guys, it's the magick subguilds. We don't need complicated coded changes or to remake the cultural setting. All that's needed is to make players choose between being a mage and being an excellent warrior, rogue, or ranger.
The fact that the class system does not force you to make these choices is the culprit of the "everyone's a sekrit magicker" disease. There's no longer a real trade-off for selecting taboo and reviled magickal power for your character. It's the min-maxer's choice for coded power for nearly every character concept ranging from rinthi beggar rogue to thickheaded Byn warrior to tribal wanderer of the wastes. The players who only want to play magickers are not the problem, and trying to make them do something else through direct or indirect nerfs is only going to drive them off. It's the people who want to play something else and then can add on full magick at no cost who have lead to magicker inflation.
I think the suggestion of removing all of the magick subguilds except the touched and reinstating the full-magick classes (maybe tweaked to match the class revamp) is really the best and first option that the game should look at.
Totally agree, though....
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 16, 2021, 04:32:22 PM
Quote from: lostinspace on July 16, 2021, 04:24:31 PM
... magicker-poisonous plants, magicker-aggressive creatures, and as someone else brought up, magick dead-zones.
A pitch-black, ruby-eyed spider pops into existence next to the wiry, magicky-looking man.
A buff mundane woman fails to protect the wiry, magicky-looking man.
A pitch-black, ruby-eyed spider bites the wiry, magicky-looking man on the neck, wounding him.
A buff mundane woman rescues the wiry, magicky-looking man.
A buff mundane woman dodges a pitch-black, ruby-eyed spider.
A buff mundane woman slashes a pitch-black, ruby-eyed spider, doing horrendous damage.
A pitch-black, ruby-eyed spider pops out of existence in a folding of space.
The wiry, magicky-looking man says, in magicky:
"Quick, we've got to get going. It'll be back at any moment, and I can't defend against those accursed mana-spiders."
Very cool idea nonetheless!
Quote from: hyzhenhok on July 16, 2021, 05:06:55 PM
I think the suggestion of removing all of the magick subguilds except the touched and reinstating the full-magick classes (maybe tweaked to match the class revamp) is really the best and first option that the game should look at.
And honestly, I'd like to hear staff input on all this. It seems like reverting something is often frowned upon but if we're being honest, all the spell changes would remain while keeping the balance AND allowing for mage players to enjoy their magick play EVEN MORE FOCUSED ON MAGICK without being impacted so negatively and creating minimal effort to fix the situation.
This discussion happened when there were full mages. Just so everyone knows.
There are too many muls, halfbreed and halfgiants in the game.
:o
Damn, sorry wrong cycle. Is it thieves?, elves?...ah magick, yeah too many defilers in the game, fuck those guys.
On a side note, a simple solution extend the regen rate of karma by two or three time. Its really what should have been done once extended sub-guilds became a karma free option. Some subguilds and race options should be special app only and restricted to 1 a year for people.
Not that it would change too much. I would bet anything its the same circle of friends playing those unique roles over and over anyways. I've been here on and off how many decades now and I can practically count the amount of magickers i played in one hand.
It feel really hypocritical for people to comment on the subject in some cases. Either they don't have karma to play them, or have played these roles several times already.
Quote from: creeper386 on July 16, 2021, 06:27:21 PM
This discussion happened when there were full mages. Just so everyone knows.
I keep hearing that but wasn't this pre-2011?
Don't know when the change happened. But again my point is the switch back to full mages probably doesn't solve the issue as the issue still happened when full mages were a thing.
Quote from: creeper386 on July 16, 2021, 07:23:03 PM
Don't know when the change happened. But again my point is the switch back to full mages probably doesn't solve the issue as the issue still happened when full mages were a thing.
I guess but that was before the main class changes is the thing.
Quote from: Strongheart on July 16, 2021, 07:25:42 PM
Quote from: creeper386 on July 16, 2021, 07:23:03 PM
Don't know when the change happened. But again my point is the switch back to full mages probably doesn't solve the issue as the issue still happened when full mages were a thing.
I guess but that was before the main class changes is thing.
Did this main class change thing solve the issue with too many mages?
What would people think of a spell being added.
Using this spell at different levels has different *PERMANANT* effects.
At it's weakest point, it can add 20 mana, and lower your maximum weapon skills by 30 points.
At it's strongest, it could do worse.
Side affects that randomly use your mana to silently cast curses on people near you. But at a great
amount of added versatility. Perhaps even opening other spell trees etc.
This would allow those who wanted stronger magick users to have them. While keeping the issue with just *Better* people who have access to what everyone else does AND magick to a minimum.
I would recommend alongside this, weakening magickers greatly from the beginning. Perhaps lowering the average mana level to around sixty for everyone.
*shrug* just an idea.
This thread makes me, the player, feel bad for making the choice to play a story as a magicker subclass.
Quote from: creeper386 on July 16, 2021, 07:33:24 PM
Quote from: Strongheart on July 16, 2021, 07:25:42 PM
Quote from: creeper386 on July 16, 2021, 07:23:03 PM
Don't know when the change happened. But again my point is the switch back to full mages probably doesn't solve the issue as the issue still happened when full mages were a thing.
I guess but that was before the main class changes is thing.
Did this main class change thing solve the issue with too many mages?
No it exasperated the problem overtime but a
lot has changed since then now that you can do even more than that as a mundane+magick. Not to mention, a bigger reason as to why there are so many gemmed is the fact that Templars and Oash need to fill out their elementalist gambit with multiple Aspects of the same element. If you've been around long enough then you've probably noticed this wherein reality it'd be simpler and more sustainable to have the Full Elementalists back on the menu since you sacrifice a whole lot especially now with the new main classes that are faster growing skillwise.
Quote from: Riev on July 16, 2021, 07:37:33 PM
This thread makes me, the player, feel bad for making the choice to play a story as a magicker subclass.
That's not the intent at all and I wish people wouldn't take it that way. I love playing with a magick sub too so can I blame you? No. Magick is cool af but with the suggested solution of
removing the Aspects, bringing back the Full Elementalist Classes but tweaked, and keeping the Touched would help remedy the overabundance or rather lack of mundanes.
Quote from: Strongheart on July 16, 2021, 06:54:20 PM
Quote from: creeper386 on July 16, 2021, 06:27:21 PM
This discussion happened when there were full mages. Just so everyone knows.
I keep hearing that but wasn't this pre-2011?
I'd be perfectly content with a change for magickers to be full-guild/touched only. You can check my signature for the date that full-guild magickers were closed, I have wanted them back pretty much since the moment I tried out an aspect.
Quote from: lostinspace on July 16, 2021, 07:55:06 PM
Quote from: Strongheart on July 16, 2021, 06:54:20 PM
Quote from: creeper386 on July 16, 2021, 06:27:21 PM
This discussion happened when there were full mages. Just so everyone knows.
I keep hearing that but wasn't this pre-2011?
I'd be perfectly content with a change for magickers to be full-guild/touched only. You can check my signature for the date that full-guild magickers were closed, I have wanted them back pretty much since the moment I tried out an aspect.
I hope they can come back then.
Quote from: Riev on July 16, 2021, 07:37:33 PM
This thread makes me, the player, feel bad for making the choice to play a story as a magicker subclass.
You shouldn't. I don't blame players for choices that the game has led them to naturally make. I've made that choice too and I'll make it again in the future, given the current system.
A somewhat redeeming quality of the suggestion to bring back full elementalist guilds is that the subguilds could still be available for special app. So characters concepts that really need the main guild + full subguild magick could still happen. It just wouldn't be an option staring you in the face after you pick your mundane class and the game asks you "which subguild?"
Here I come, rearing my big ugly ideas.
I hate magick. But that doesn't mean I hate those of you who play gicks.
Let me tell you why I hate magick, alright.
Magick is something that is supposed to be rare, supposed to be haunting and dangerous and beautiful and special. It's not that to me here and now. As someone who plays mundane classes/subclasses mostly, imagine this: You're the side character in every story. How many fantasy books/movies have someone who just watches the magick around them? Sure, there are elves and they witness miracles, but the books and movies and comics focus on the person with the powers because they are otherworldly. When magick plots come into place, it's like the mundanes are forced to watch and support this plot that doesn't resonate with them.
Again, this is opinion, not fact. Please do not take anything that I say as anything sturdier than straw and clay. My ideas and thoughts aren't cement.
Characters who don't have magick don't understand magick and (mostly) don't want magick. They're supposed to fear it, not understand it, rp with it in that matter. Then all these gicks come flaunting around with their utility shit and offering it to mundanes who grit their teeth and say "no thanks". Even worse when they used to be your buddy and they have a group of other mundanes working alongside them and you're the independent twiddling their thumbs and watching. And get left out. And don't get to be included in the story.
I agree that there needs to be less gicks. They are everywhere. And it's getting a tad ridiculous. Also the way magick isn't censored is becoming really really annoying. It's draining to act huffy each person comes out as a gick. A character of mine watched about 5-9 people come out as gicks in 2-3 years. And by that point, they were just sick of it. How are mundanes supposed to respond to the same plot over and over. "unmanifested, unmanifested."
Then, let's talk about the unequal powers within magick. Why is everyone's magick equal? Shouldn't some people rp being bad at magick? Maybe some people can't use it at all. For some reason, everyone can just cast from the time they're manifested. That's weird to me.
I got a lot of gripes with magick, honestly, it makes the game boring to me. Having magick is not a great plot anymore. Having personality no matter the class is great. Having goals outside of magick is fabulous. I just don't like seeing it consume not just one character, but all the characters and plots around it.
Quote from: creeper386 on July 16, 2021, 06:27:21 PM
This discussion happened when there were full mages. Just so everyone knows.
He does not lie, at all. It was way worse, back then, in terms of how little mages needed mundanes, and how outpowered we were. On the other hand, there was never this rampant of magism. So not the exact convo happened, but one much like it.
Again, it's just a matter of what game we want to have.
The thing about mundane solutions to mundane problems is it's mildly difficult most of the time. Want to assassinate someone? It isn't easy. But it's doable. And when it's done exactly right, it's a thrilling, crazy experience.
Or...You could just find a Magicker to do it for you in a few waves of the hand.
Want to spy on someone? The risk of getting caught, versus the risk of finding out some juicy information...Thrilling, nail biting stuff. Will you be caught? Did they see you but not say anything?
Or...You could just find a Magicker to do it for you in a few waves of the hand.
Enemy getting you down? Hmm, not many options, but you could pay that Soldier to give them a hard time, or a burglar to break into their apartment and leave dead rats on their bed...Maybe sleep with their lover to really stick it to them.
Or...You could just find a Magicker to escalate shit and send them to their doom.
Every mundane problem CAN be solved by Magicking, and when it is, it's often a cheaper feeling solution. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth. It isn't satisfying, because it is too damn easy.
Magic should be more difficult. It should have adverse affects, both on the people using it and the people around them when they use it. There should absolutely be more downsides to just BEING ALIVE and being a Magicker, in this defiled, desert-wasteland. People mentioned perhaps certain NPCs being attracted to Elementalists/Defilers. Certain poisons affecting them differently, or even different foods/drinks affecting them differently. Magicking Dead Zones -- Absolutely yes. Maybe there are/can be places that amplify magic as well.
Magic, In General, should be less predictable and more chaotic. Is it useful? Yes, when it works correctly. But sometimes, when a Gemmed casts a spell they've cast a hundred times, it lights EVERYONE ON FIRE. EVERYONE. That level of danger should be constantly present with a Magicker, which in turn would make them...Codedly...And RP wise...Pretty scary to be around.
As with most of the binary things in this game -- It's always all or nothing. And it feels recently the attention / plots are getting focused on and solved by Magic, which just doesn't sit right with my Low-Fantasy Grim-Dark Permadeath desires for this game. As Gentleboy puts it, it makes Mundanes feel like they're the Red Shirt side characters all the time. "Yeah yeah, whatever, Corporal Soandso, we're just going to get the Whiran to do it."
Quote from: Veselka on July 16, 2021, 09:13:46 PM
Again, it's just a matter of what game we want to have.
The thing about mundane solutions to mundane problems is it's mildly difficult most of the time. Want to assassinate someone? It isn't easy. But it's doable. And when it's done exactly right, it's a thrilling, crazy experience.
Or...You could just find a Magicker to do it for you in a few waves of the hand.
Want to spy on someone? The risk of getting caught, versus the risk of finding out some juicy information...Thrilling, nail biting stuff. Will you be caught? Did they see you but not say anything?
Or...You could just find a Magicker to do it for you in a few waves of the hand.
Enemy getting you down? Hmm, not many options, but you could pay that Soldier to give them a hard time, or a burglar to break into their apartment and leave dead rats on their bed...Maybe sleep with their lover to really stick it to them.
Or...You could just find a Magicker to escalate shit and send them to their doom.
Every mundane problem CAN be solved by Magicking, and when it is, it's often a cheaper feeling solution. It leaves a bad taste in the mouth. It isn't satisfying, because it is too damn easy.
Magic should be more difficult. It should have adverse affects, both on the people using it and the people around them when they use it. There should absolutely be more downsides to just BEING ALIVE and being a Magicker, in this defiled, desert-wasteland. People mentioned perhaps certain NPCs being attracted to Elementalists/Defilers. Certain poisons affecting them differently, or even different foods/drinks affecting them differently. Magicking Dead Zones -- Absolutely yes. Maybe there are/can be places that amplify magic as well.
Magic, In General, should be less predictable and more chaotic. Is it useful? Yes, when it works correctly. But sometimes, when a Gemmed casts a spell they've cast a hundred times, it lights EVERYONE ON FIRE. EVERYONE. That level of danger should be constantly present with a Magicker, which in turn would make them...Codedly...And RP wise...Pretty scary to be around.
As with most of the binary things in this game -- It's always all or nothing. And it feels recently the attention / plots are getting focused on and solved by Magic, which just doesn't sit right with my Low-Fantasy Grim-Dark Permadeath desires for this game. As Gentleboy puts it, it makes Mundanes feel like they're the Red Shirt side characters all the time. "Yeah yeah, whatever, Corporal Soandso, we're just going to get the Whiran to do it."
Oooh, I love all this. You made your words make more sense and it's so good.
So two arguments in this thread:
1. There are too many mages (hidden or otherwise)
-Bringing back full mage guild would not solve this problem. In fact it makes the problem worse, while at the same time forces these players into often isolated/hostile roles to survive while others are isolated to social roles at best.
-Keeping touched does not solve this problem. touched are still mages and there should be no difference between how you treat a touched mage vs a full sub-guild one
- The only options is to reduce the ability for players to play mage by increasing karma regeneration, or making these less fun ICly to play and yes both of these option will eventually cost some players.
2. Some magick sub-classes are too strong especially in combination with some self sufficient classes with not a lot of draw backs
-Yes. Some are. And perhaps their karma requirement should probably be reviewed.
-That said, none of the solutions to this will prevent people from playing mages, or playing those dangerous magick sub-classes which was the original intent of the thread.
-Full mage classes again being terrible solution to this as it not only gives more power to one player, but forces them into more isolated hostile roles.
Yeah, I'm also not convinced bringing back full mages would do anything to solve this perceived issue.
It's a matter of how many people choose to engage the game from a mundane vs high-fantasy standpoint.
The more people that engage with the mundane, the more mundane the game will be.
The more people that engage with the high-fantasy aspects, the more high-fantasy the game will be, for everyone.
Also, as someone who has been playing this game for two years, my feelings are hurt a bit, honestly.
It seems like magickers get a lot of attention and those who are playing mundanes "aren't playing the game right".
We get no cool secret knowledge, not amazing and high-powered items. Even metal is taken by higher powers.
What is it we gain from Arm as mundanes? Should we all just be hobbling around till we get karma to play the real game? That's what it feels like.
Quote from: Dresan on July 16, 2021, 09:17:45 PM
So two arguments in this thread:
1. There are too many mages (hidden or otherwise)
-Bringing back full mage guild would not solve this problem. In fact it makes the problem worse, while at the same time forces these players into often isolated/hostile roles to survive while others are isolated to social roles at best.
-Keeping touched does not solve this problem. touched are still mages and there should be no difference between how you treat a touched mage vs a full sub-guild one
- The only options is to reduce the ability for players to play mage by increasing karma regeneration, or making these less fun ICly to play and yes both of these option will eventually cost some players.
2. Some magick sub-classes are too strong especially in combination with some self sufficient classes with not a lot of draw backs
-Yes. Some are. And perhaps their karma requirement should probably be reviewed.
-That said, none of the solutions to this will prevent people from playing mages, or playing those dangerous magick sub-classes which was the original intent of the thread.
-Full mage classes again being terrible solution to this as it not only gives more power to one player, but forces them into more isolated hostile roles.
I don't know why you would assume everyone currently playing a Full Class / Subguild Mage would be equally happy to roll a full guild mage. And you identify drawbacks to the full mage role that would seemingly encourage some players not to pick that class, whereas with subguild mages there's much less of a downside.
Quote from: Gentleboy on July 16, 2021, 09:25:46 PMShould we all just be hobbling around till we get karma to play the real game? That's what it feels like.
I don't think so. This is a good thought process. Personally I prefer mundane. Even having karma options for magickers I don't play them much, and at least a few others voice similar opinions.
Quote from: Gentleboy on July 16, 2021, 09:25:46 PM
Also, as someone who has been playing this game for two years, my feelings are hurt a bit, honestly.
It seems like magickers get a lot of attention and those who are playing mundanes "aren't playing the game right".
We get no cool secret knowledge, not amazing and high-powered items. Even metal is taken by higher powers.
What is it we gain from Arm as mundanes? Should we all just be hobbling around till we get karma to play the real game? That's what it feels like.
I mean -- Magic plots are cool. Templar plots are pretty cool, and some involve magic. Learning about esoteric history of the game while in the game is pretty cool.
There are just a lot of barriers for mundanes to be the center of a story/plot/tale.
One barrier is literacy, or the lack thereof, or even an illicit means to learn it -- it would provide a means for the mundane populace to learn and rebel, thus creating plots and upheaval to the status quo.
Another barrier is psionic powers, which in Dark Sun were widely known and accepted, while Mindbenders (people who actively used psionic superpowers to manipulate people and their surroundings) were deeeefinitely reviled and hunted. However, more widely accepted psionic powers might actually counter balance magical powers. Perhaps the ability to track people psionically that leave trace magic behind. Remember that Psionicism in Dark Sun was a /reaction/ to the horrible environment caused by...Defiling Magic. So it stands to reason that common day people have evolutionarily developed psionic defenses against....Magic.
Another barrier is simply focus. When Magic becomes part of a plot, it sucks the oxygen out of the room. Which can be incredibly boring for mundanes involved. And when there isn't magic involved in a plot...People are just waiting for magic to get involved in the plot/storyline/lifeline of a PC.
I'll give you an example, anecdotally. A region undergoes an IC year of peace and prosperity. Crafters be crafting. Hunters be hunting. Merchants be selling. Bynners be escorting and finding the occasional Gith. Templars be oppressing. It's relatively boring, but people develop some interpersonal drama. The occasional love-triangle pops up. Some GMH is an asshole and hard to get along with. And then...
A dEfILeR Shows up!
Everyone drops everything. What do we do? How do we survive? The Defiler is out there. They've picked on a few people...Oh no, someone died. What do we do? How do we solve this unsolvable problem? I can't go outside...We can't hunt...We can't craft...There's a Defiler...
And then the Defiler dies or goes away.
Year of prosperity...
And then another Defiler or Magicker Cabal...
Year of prosperity...
And so on.
I have to say CURRENT EVENTS fly in the face of this. Shit is popping off. And the cycle appears to have been somewhat broken at least for the last month or so. But before Current Events, it certainly felt like an ad nauseam cycle of the same plots over and over again, with magic taking the main stage and mundanes ostensibly being unable to do anything about it.
I'd just like for the focus to return to mundane plots, with mundane people. How we go about doing that...I suppose requires a lot of pontification. Mostly it requires MOST players to commit to playing mundane people. Maybe there should be longer timers for high karma magic classes. Maybe they should all be special app. I dunno. It just feels like the game should stop advertising itself as a low-fantasy game. Actual Play of the game -- Not Low Fantasy.
Veselka idea's would make anyone playing a magick sub-guild throw away character, and would essentially kill the entire magick experience for a lot of people with sheer frustration.
A very small portion of magickal sub-guilds are good at killing/spying with little risk, you can probably narrow down the exact spells just as easily. Considering most people have no problem with people being mages via touched sub-guilds I think just dealing with the dangerous spells would be better than nerfing the entire experience.
That said just remember Sap Skill and strength stat in general are also pretty OP, and as or more dangerous than most spells as well, with even less risk then using magick since failing to kill your target instantly will get you potentially branded a mage. Guess this will be the next thread of things to 'fix'
Quote from: Veselka on July 16, 2021, 09:35:29 PM
I have to say CURRENT EVENTS fly in the face of this. Shit is popping off. And the cycle appears to have been somewhat broken at least for the last month or so. But before Current Events, it certainly felt like an ad nauseam cycle of the same plots over and over again, with magic taking the main stage and mundanes ostensibly being unable to do anything about it.
.. They do? Current events, huge sandstorms thrown at Allanak, [REDACTED] going on, the works, AREN'T stuffed to the brim with magic?
What?
Quote from: Patuk on July 16, 2021, 09:38:32 PM
Quote from: Veselka on July 16, 2021, 09:35:29 PM
I have to say CURRENT EVENTS fly in the face of this. Shit is popping off. And the cycle appears to have been somewhat broken at least for the last month or so. But before Current Events, it certainly felt like an ad nauseam cycle of the same plots over and over again, with magic taking the main stage and mundanes ostensibly being unable to do anything about it.
.. They do? Current events, huge sandstorms thrown at Allanak, [REDACTED] going on, the works, AREN'T stuffed to the brim with magic?
What?
No, mostly in breaking up the 'cycle'. But definitely plenty of magic to ogle.
I guess I don't really see it that way. Certainly being a mage is a front row seat into being involved with current events; mundanes' chief achievements, so far, are dying to the forner. I guess it counts as involvement, but yeah, I don't agree it's a good dynamic.
Quote from: Patuk on July 16, 2021, 10:15:41 PM
I guess I don't really see it that way. Certainly being a mage is a front row seat into being involved with current events; mundanes' chief achievements, so far, are dying to the forner. I guess it counts as involvement, but yeah, I don't agree it's a good dynamic.
I also don't think it's a great or perfect dynamic -- Definitely still the 'magic seems to be the front seat, mundanes the back seat/child seat'. I don't think it's a fantastic dynamic, but it's definitely a change from the cycle of the last year or two. Here's to hoping tomorrow's RPT is somewhat mundane.
I vote with Strongheart. +1 getting rid of the Aspect subs, bringing back Full Elementalists, and keeping Touched.
I have to ask, how many staff plots are without magic? The gith storylines, the current arc, the sewer to salt flat battle, the senate vote... I have to think back a long way before some possibilities make the list. If this is the case, I cant blame players for indulging in roles with the tools to participate on the larger stage.
I rant about this on Discord sometimes so want to make this first part really clear. I have absolutely no problem with people playing mages. For me it's a numbers problem. It's reliving the same plot of finding PCs you're becoming friends with manifesting again and again and again. That gets really old to RP through time after time if you're trying to RP a realistic personality but also adhere to the docs of fearing and mistrusting magick. Magick fearing/hating mundanes should never feel like a minority but at times they really do.
I personally think that (the small minority of?) players who play mage after mage after mage are doing the game's theme a disservice. And if it's coming from a place of 'well this magick subclass is more powerful' then they're power gaming. Not against the rules, play what you want to have fun but they should realize it also impacts the experience of other players.
I like a few of the ideas proposed to fix it. I think bringing back full class mages would reduce the number played as playing a full class mage is a different challenge. It would come with some other trade offs though.
I'm curious what people think of changing magick spells to be far more difficult to max out. Iirc spells were some of the easiest and quickest skills in the game to skill up.
Staff (and player!) plots should be designed to not become magick vs magick gickfests to the exclusion of mundane PCs. My personal preference for magick in plotlines is plots that are mundanes vs the dangers of magick they can't understand. This becomes less possible when a higher percentage of PCs are magickers because those can easily steal the show in anything vaguely magick related, especially when they've got a full main class worth of skills to add utility as well.
And to add to these random thoughts I think I'll paraphrase what another player once said. 'Arm isn't a low magick world. It was literally destroyed by magick and is ruled by sorcerer kings'. I've come to agree with that and magick on Arm is cool and powerful. It's just that these days it isn't rare, special or even particularly interesting when as a mundane you're constantly encountering it or its users.
You could go back to the beginning - when magic wasn't hated but used both in Tuluk and Allanak.
I agree that hating on magic is fine when it's rare but not so fun when it is common. It's like playing a human and stepping into a tavern full of breeds.
One ewww is fun, ten is tedious.
Another option would be to create a witcher class - a mundane that specializes in hunting mages.
Quote from: RavingTregils on July 17, 2021, 06:45:28 AM
Another option would be to create a witcher class - a mundane that specializes in hunting mages.
That. I was just thinking of that when I was reading through the thread. You need balance, but the problem is aren't you gonna use anti-magic items or skills that could be called magic in a sense?
I think a witch hunter would be so funny. Eating the dirt and spitting it out "yup, ya got gicks, Lord Templar."
Quote from: Barsook on July 17, 2021, 08:44:50 AM
Quote from: RavingTregils on July 17, 2021, 06:45:28 AM
Another option would be to create a witcher class - a mundane that specializes in hunting mages.
That. I was just thinking of that when I was reading through the thread. You need balance, but the problem is aren't you gonna use anti-magic items or skills that could be called magic in a sense?
There are skills already in the game that are very useful against magic-users and not as useful against mundanes, that are not magical in nature. These skills could be transplanted to a theoretical clan of witch-hunters.
There's already at least a couple clans in game that could and should have access to witch-hunter type powers. I'd advocated, briefly, with staff to give one of these clans access. I think there's lore justification for it, too, for both of these clans. It would actually enforce the general feel of those clans if they had some means of (a) keeping ginks out of their ranks and (b) deal with ginks that wander on to their turf.
Although reasonable people could disagree that that justification is really there, this is all play-pretend. We could retcon and say that a rare few secretive members of clan X and/or Y have always had access to the abilities, if there was a general desire to quickly add witch-hunters to the game.
What if being effected my magicks made pulling up a barrier impossible? In this way, anyone with a magick subclass can't use barrier. Perhaps give him advanced contact instead of master. Magicks mess with psionics.
Additionally, you give every mundane subclass journeyman barrier to start.
What this does, it is allows employers to test their people before promotion or upon enlistment.
"I'm going to contact your mind, and I want you to put up a barrier after. If you can do it, then we know you're not cursed and you can get this job/promotion."
This would deter folks from playing secret magickers and make playing a rogue more difficult and as a result organically decrease overpopulation of mages.
Witch hunters sound fun, especially if they could earn a way of verifying X was a secret gick. I don't think it by itself would reduce the numbers by much but it'd certainly add a new dimension to mundane/witch relations. I'd be so tempted to app one but also tempted to app a magicker antagonist if they were full and were successful.
Work could also be done IC to make certain areas of the game world more hostile to witches or anyone overly friendly with them. I've definitely seen some PCs strike the balance of hate/interaction very well but I can think of two areas that could do this better. On the other hand there's also the aspect that a rogue witch is the main trump card certain groups have against Allanak. That can be rough because you also want criminals to have a chance but if there are organized groups of gemmed it just becomes a magickal arms race.
Is there any avoiding organized groups of Gemmed with House Oash as an open House? Between Gemmed, House Oash, the Sun Runners, raider and rebel groups against Allanak trying to survive templars, support for an ongoing storyline, the stream of gemmed vs rogues in the Two Moons, etc, is anyone surprised were are alot of mages?
I'd love a mundane merchant guild plot in and around the southlands, where the House leaders paid to have templars test all new employees for magick.
Quote from: stoicreader on July 17, 2021, 11:36:21 AM
What if being effected my magicks made pulling up a barrier impossible? In this way, anyone with a magick subclass can't use barrier. Perhaps give him advanced contact instead of master. Magicks mess with psionics.
Additionally, you give every mundane subclass journeyman barrier to start.
What this does, it is allows employers to test their people before promotion or upon enlistment.
"I'm going to contact your mind, and I want you to put up a barrier after. If you can do it, then we know you're not cursed and you can get this job/promotion."
This would deter folks from playing secret magickers and make playing a rogue more difficult and as a result organically decrease overpopulation of mages.
Literally guild sniffing. No thanks.
Quote from: Riev on July 16, 2021, 07:37:33 PM
This thread makes me, the player, feel bad for making the choice to play a story as a magicker subclass.
Quote from: Iiyola on July 17, 2021, 12:23:34 PM
Quote from: Riev on July 16, 2021, 07:37:33 PM
This thread makes me, the player, feel bad for making the choice to play a story as a magicker subclass.
Please do not feel bad! Mages are enjoyable to play and no on should blame you for playing one at all even if it's every other character because of how fun they can be. It's just that there needs to be more give and take so that they're not completely outclassing mundanes because as it stands (at least for rogues) they can do what mundanes are able to + more.
Quote from: Strongheart on July 17, 2021, 12:46:44 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on July 17, 2021, 12:23:34 PM
Quote from: Riev on July 16, 2021, 07:37:33 PM
This thread makes me, the player, feel bad for making the choice to play a story as a magicker subclass.
Please do not feel bad! Mages are enjoyable to play and no on should blame you for playing one at all even if it's every other character because of how fun they can be. It's just that there needs to be more give and take so that they're not completely outclassing mundanes because as it stands (at least for rogues) they can do what mundanes are able to + more.
Gemmed aren't better about this, and do three-fourths of the work the AoD might do any time of the week.
I'm just trying not to attack fellow players. I won't disagree but I want to be conscientious of what is said here not being a judgement on players. But rather how the magick subs are just generally more appealing than the mundane subs.
Quote from: Iiyola on July 17, 2021, 12:23:34 PM
Quote from: Riev on July 16, 2021, 07:37:33 PM
This thread makes me, the player, feel bad for making the choice to play a story as a magicker subclass.
Please don't. It's certainly not my intention and I don't think anyone's to make people feel bad because they're playing a magicker at this time. It's just that people have noticed there are a -lot- of magickers in recent months. I think it's just a discussion about this change in the game population and how we as players might see the docs or code changed to adapt to this based on whatever our personal experiences and opinions are.
Play more gicks. Someone has to because I probably won't.
Sangre por la machina.
I am of the opinion, keyword being opinion, that is the number of gicks in game was an issue, staff would stop approving applications for them. Much like when you try to join the Two Moons, Sunrunners, etc, if there are too many magickers, staff will decline your app. The only downfall to this are that players that enjoy playing magicker after magicker will likely not log on until they are able to make their magicker..Maybe I am wrong about that last part though, I hope.
Quote from: Krath on July 17, 2021, 01:57:56 PM
Maybe I am wrong about that last part though, I hope.
You aren't really, which is likely a good reason to buff mundane(AND ONLY MUNDANE) roles instead of restricting mages more.
Quote from: Iiyola on July 17, 2021, 12:23:34 PM
Quote from: Riev on July 16, 2021, 07:37:33 PM
This thread makes me, the player, feel bad for making the choice to play a story as a magicker subclass.
Magic plots are like bringing desert to the potluck. Very much appreciated individually, but if that's all anyone brought it can be a problem. Not because any individual caused it, but because the party wasn't organized.
I've considered playing a witch Hunter before. The problem of this is that the cure to witching is death. So a witch Hunter would literally be a character that is highly focused on PK.
A successful witch Hunter is liable to kill half the games playerbase over a rl year of success. Is that really what we want?
Quote from: Dar on July 17, 2021, 05:04:38 PM
I've considered playing a witch Hunter before. The problem of this is that the cure to witching is death. So a witch Hunter would literally be a character that is highly focused on PK.
A successful witch Hunter is liable to kill half the games playerbase over a rl year of success. Is that really what we want?
What I want is to figure out a way that some of the people that only or primarily have fun with magic could have fun with mundanes.
Quote from: Dar on July 17, 2021, 05:04:38 PM
A successful witch Hunter is liable to kill half the games playerbase over a rl year of success. Is that really what we want?
Yes.
Quote from: Patuk on July 17, 2021, 06:00:00 PM
Quote from: Dar on July 17, 2021, 05:04:38 PM
A successful witch Hunter is liable to kill half the games playerbase over a rl year of success. Is that really what we want?
Yes.
Quote from: Patuk on July 17, 2021, 02:13:11 PM
Quote from: Krath on July 17, 2021, 01:57:56 PM
Maybe I am wrong about that last part though, I hope.
You aren't really, which is likely a good reason to buff mundane(AND ONLY MUNDANE) roles instead of restricting mages more.
Exactly! I want magick to be as powerful while increasing the power of mundanes.
Quote from: Narf on July 17, 2021, 03:11:50 PM
Quote from: Iiyola on July 17, 2021, 12:23:34 PM
Quote from: Riev on July 16, 2021, 07:37:33 PM
This thread makes me, the player, feel bad for making the choice to play a story as a magicker subclass.
Magic plots are like bringing desert to the potluck. Very much appreciated individually, but if that's all anyone brought it can be a problem. Not because any individual caused it, but because the party wasn't organized.
That's the perfect analogy! And makes me miss potlucks :'(
Funny thing is, there used to be a mage hunter class.
It was called Ranger.
Hmm, I keep thinking about this thread and here's something I would like to ask:
What does magick bring to this game?
Because for me it just brings strife. What good does magick bring to the community? Is this game meant to be played communally or selfishly? Whose story is this? Where does magick lie with the lore (as a whole) because some tribes and areas have different views. Who is magick fun for? Yourself because you get to try a new skill? See secrets only available to gicks because staff has pushed that to be that way? Why do we want to be a magicker? Why does everyone want to be Luke Skywalker and not Han Solo (or CP30)?
---------------------
Also, instead of starting off as a gick, here's an idea. There's an option: Would at somepoint would you like to randomly manifest with whatever magick we choose? And it's up to your plot/staff if you manifest. Maybe you're all waiting to bleet me out with shofars that this idea is horrible and your stomachs are curdling, but, I always kind of liked that with magick. The uncontrollable aspects of it. The organic mystical nature. The unobtainable and unexplainable. Truly horrible, horrific, but hey, you had an option. And maybe you never will manifest.
Quote from: RavingTregils on July 17, 2021, 06:45:28 AM
...
Another option would be to create a witcher class - a mundane that specializes in hunting mages.
Fuck...YES. This would be god damn awesome if there was a legit mage hunting class. Maybe something with resistance to magick (Not a dwarf).
To add something I feel is meaningful to the conversation other than fanboying over the idea of a mage hunter class...
I think Mages are fun as shit to play, however, I find their use to be very PVP'y only.
Why? Well because all the useful shit a mage can do is only used by Templars and a handful of organizations in the world. Due to the stigma of mages and the medieval logic of, A witch touched me, and my wife miscarried, so therefor it's the witch's touch that killed my unborn Amos, if you find someone who uses the Vivaduan to create water or heal their wounds, they are not playing by docs. Because "witches".
However, Almost every class of witch I've played has some sort of, "Make it easy as shit to kill folks" magic spell(s).
If witches had more utility that could be used for the aid of others, that wasn't stigmatized, or possibly wasn't known to be magic related, then it would be a more useful class for others.
For example, "Saw a Rukkian had a spell that could increase the forage chances of gems in a location due to their ties to the earth." or a viv could create watering holes through time and effort that lasted a while.
A whiran could create rooms with refreshing winds and increased the regeneration of those who rested there, things that were palpable but could be explained possibly IC as, "Man the winds feel great here right now, Tek must be showing us some love to allow this comforting wind, I'm catching my breath much faster now."
Or "This is a hotspot for shiny rocks, the Kadians are gonna pay me well for all these rocks."
So essentially it would be nice if Mages had world altering power, that didn't end up just being character ending power. Perhaps make mages of the same type work together to create a permanent oasis, and something that required upkeep occasionally.
But not make it just pop in and out of existence like Magick. Be more gradual and measured.
I dunno, rough ass idea, but that would make mages better for more than PKing folks.
Quote from: Pariah on July 17, 2021, 08:54:49 PM
To add something I feel is meaningful to the conversation other than fanboying over the idea of a mage hunter class...
I think Mages are fun as shit to play, however, I find their use to be very PVP'y only.
Why? Well because all the useful shit a mage can do is only used by Templars and a handful of organizations in the world. Due to the stigma of mages and the medieval logic of, A witch touched me, and my wife miscarried, so therefor it's the witch's touch that killed my unborn Amos, if you find someone who uses the Vivaduan to create water or heal their wounds, they are not playing by docs. Because "witches".
However, Almost every class of witch I've played has some sort of, "Make it easy as shit to kill folks" magic spell(s).
If witches had more utility that could be used for the aid of others, that wasn't stigmatized, or possibly wasn't known to be magic related, then it would be a more useful class for others.
For example, "Saw a Rukkian had a spell that could increase the forage chances of gems in a location due to their ties to the earth." or a viv could create watering holes through time and effort that lasted a while.
A whiran could create rooms with refreshing winds and increased the regeneration of those who rested there, things that were palpable but could be explained possibly IC as, "Man the winds feel great here right now, Tek must be showing us some love to allow this comforting wind, I'm catching my breath much faster now."
Or "This is a hotspot for shiny rocks, the Kadians are gonna pay me well for all these rocks."
So essentially it would be nice if Mages had world altering power, that didn't end up just being character ending power. Perhaps make mages of the same type work together to create a permanent oasis, and something that required upkeep occasionally.
But not make it just pop in and out of existence like Magick. Be more gradual and measured.
I dunno, rough ass idea, but that would make mages better for more than PKing folks.
Them mages got mad utility already, depending on the one you choose.
What's the downside? This is Arm. Amazing powers should have amazing consequences. I don't see many already for gicks besides death for being a secret gick and running away.
Quote from: Dar on July 17, 2021, 05:04:38 PM
I've considered playing a witch Hunter before. The problem of this is that the cure to witching is death. So a witch Hunter would literally be a character that is highly focused on PK.
A successful witch Hunter is liable to kill half the games playerbase over a rl year of success. Is that really what we want?
oh fuck i gotta play a witch hunter
Quote from: Dar on July 17, 2021, 05:04:38 PM
A successful witch Hunter is liable to kill half the games playerbase over a rl year of success. Is that really what we want?
Yes.
However, an average warrior takes X number of days to get to viability, let alone "mage-slaying". A mage takes half that to be fully branched. Its imbalance at all levels.
Quote from: Fernandezj on July 17, 2021, 09:50:29 PM
Quote from: Dar on July 17, 2021, 05:04:38 PM
A successful witch Hunter is liable to kill half the games playerbase over a rl year of success. Is that really what we want?
Yes.
However, an average warrior takes X number of days to get to viability, let alone "mage-slaying". A mage takes half that to be fully branched. Its imbalance at all levels.
Not to mention that a-REDACTED-
We're not going to be discussing the spell list, or what the spells can and cannot do, in this thread. -Hestia
Fair enough, sorry about that, always a hard subject to discuss without going to deep, apparently I did.
My very humble (unneeded) opinion once more:
If the magick subguilds are staying, perhaps empower mundanes the same way. Add special mundane subguilds that are also higher karma. This way, the magick's appealing, and now the mundanes will be equally appealing.
I myself, having played magick little and mostly mundanes, have hardly ever used my karma on anything but the little magick I've actually played.
Something like a witchhunter would be a good example, as mentioned above. Make it have resistance to magick. Higher barrier. 2 Karma. Stuff like that.. maybe something like 'Veteran', where you start with jman/advanced weapon skills. *shrug
Regardless, in conclusion: Add some different usages for karma that don't require a whole spec app, a different race, or magic.
Spend cgp on higher starting skills. Have a guild with stealth in city/wild. Poisoning, skinning, stealth, sap, and certain range skills. Enough to PK just about anything in the wild.
There probably is a certain amount of opportunity cost associated with why people pick mage subguilds. Why not spend the karma to create a fun character when you have it? It's always tempting to use the karma you have.
I feel an automated process or one that didn't require wasting a special app to boost mundane skills using karma or even just add an extra skill outside the class/subclass would definitely have appeal and open up concepts people want to play but don't want to grind for. The combat grind does get tiresome.
Quote from: SpyGuy on July 18, 2021, 12:00:57 AM
There probably is a certain amount of opportunity cost associated with why people pick mage subguilds. Why not spend the karma to create a fun character when you have it? It's always tempting to use the karma you have.
I feel an automated process or one that didn't require wasting a special app to boost mundane skills using karma or even just add an extra skill outside the class/subclass would definitely have appeal and open up concepts people want to play but don't want to grind for. The combat grind does get tiresome.
Very true.
A system to automate use of karma for additional 'perks' and/or skill bumps would drastically lower the magicker usage I would imagine.
While apping your character, at the end, an option to utilize your karma for skill bumps (kept in-line with current limitations).
Then you could have a few perks that mundanes would find useful for a karma point. A set of skills that aren't game-breaking, languages that you'd not normally have, raising the skill-cap of current skills (advanced ride to master cap, advanced scan to master scan, advanced climb to master climb, etc.).
I think finding other ways to use karma would lower the number of apps using karma for magickers. Just my take.
Tuluk opening: Well, that'll do it.
Quote from: Inks on July 18, 2021, 11:41:17 AM
Tuluk opening: Well, that'll do it.
Tuluk being around definitely makes it harder for rogue magickers to have happy fun times.
Quote from: Veselka on July 18, 2021, 12:47:29 PM
Quote from: Inks on July 18, 2021, 11:41:17 AM
Tuluk opening: Well, that'll do it.
Tuluk being around definitely makes it harder for rogue magickers to have happy fun times.
Yeah, this might balance out the overall game at least, if not specific areas.
As someone with a little karma and barely plays magikers. I'd love for a way to spend karma in other ways, but I think the most appealing ways is options for other skills, subguilds or higher caps.
There is some issue in regard to we maybe have a LOT of subguilds already though.
Tuluk Opening will help, While yes I planned on next PC to be mundane, Now I will have a place to create him and be away from filthy mages.
Yeah. As long as there aren't whirans playing 'kill the mundane' again, this should be a good one.
I really like the idea of making karma options available for skill bumps. This way people will spend Karma in novel ways not limited to being a gemmer.
The grind for combat characters is crazy. If there was a skill bump for offensive/defensive: 2 karma.
Or 3 karma for Offensive/Defensive boost plus weapon skill of choice.
Or 2 karma for higher stats that are less random.
Like. Give these boosts to people who have staff trust so that they don't need to grind forever in the Byn. Just a thought.
Honestly, Many older players would spend karma if it was across the board bumps to bypass the grind, Oh, I can spend all my karma to start as a 10 day PC....DONE. Well, 15 day for 3 karma. Basically use karma to start as a sponsered role without the role.
Yeah ... I could really get behind spending karma on erasing some of the mundane grind. So behind this ...
So has anyone in this thread who enjoys magickers actually had their say that there IS oppression of magickers, left and right, top to bottom, and in a pervasive way that being magickers is the biggest test of patience and dedication to a setting that I've ever roleplayed? It is as close to slavery RP as one can get in this game, and learning the learned helplessness and having characters die in droves without an option to object is something I've seen again and again and again as gemmed, and it's almost like people in this thread just haven't seen all that RP that goes on.
The above is mostly true for gemmed, where I have to keep giving kudos left and right because I get to enjoy scenes of torture or disgrace and shame and or outright denial of humanity, and it's like nobody's even paying attention.
The problem probably is moreso that the RP that is out there portraying mages in the way they ought to be played is so separated as is from the RP of the mundane side that all that is seen is when they do intersect, which often may seem like a power imbalance between magick and mundane, but the experience from the (gemmed) side at least is extremely difficult to RP and the idea of a "light degree" of social stigma is way off.
Tuluk reopening so I don't care about this thread concept any more.
Quote from: Veselka on July 18, 2021, 04:18:02 PM
Tuluk reopening so I don't care about this thread concept any more.
LOL. Best Comment To Date.
I formally take back all my whinging about the 'oversaturation' of mages now.
Though I do still think more karma uses for mundanes would be good.
To be clear, Tuluk Reopening will surely help with spreading the population around, and thereby reduce the amount of 'Active Mages' at a given time.
In addition, Tuluk is known for its 'witch hunting qualities'.
I agree, mundane benefits to karma would be welcome and awesome, but probably a different thread idea.
Quote from: Veselka on July 18, 2021, 04:49:22 PM
To be clear, Tuluk Reopening will surely help with spreading the population around, and thereby reduce the amount of 'Active Mages' at a given time.
I disagree 100%.
The only thing that is changing is the play area that the storyline allows for non-mages to play in.
The number of mages will still be the same.
The play areas that allow for mages to enjoy in will still attract the mages.
The players who dislike seeing mages are removing themselves from the area of play that allow for mages.
I will not be surprised that there will be MORE mages in RED STORM, ALLANAK/'RINTH, and in the DESERT WASTES.
Yeaaah, there have been times where Tuluki PCs just got picked off by magickers and had no recourse. I really hope not to see that sorts of thing again.
Quote from: mansa on July 18, 2021, 05:09:37 PM
Quote from: Veselka on July 18, 2021, 04:49:22 PM
To be clear, Tuluk Reopening will surely help with spreading the population around, and thereby reduce the amount of 'Active Mages' at a given time.
I disagree 100%.
The only thing that is changing is the play area that the storyline allows for non-mages to play in.
The number of mages will still be the same.
The play areas that allow for mages to enjoy in will still attract the mages.
The players who dislike seeing mages are removing themselves from the area of play that allow for mages.
I will not be surprised that there will be MORE mages in RED STORM, ALLANAK/'RINTH, and in the DESERT WASTES.
Fair point.
Stop playing mages, you...Mages.
Also prepare to die.
Quote from: Fenneko on July 18, 2021, 04:13:54 PM
So has anyone in this thread who enjoys magickers actually had their say that there IS oppression of magickers, left and right, top to bottom, and in a pervasive way that being magickers is the biggest test of patience and dedication to a setting that I've ever roleplayed? It is as close to slavery RP as one can get in this game, and learning the learned helplessness and having characters die in droves without an option to object is something I've seen again and again and again as gemmed, and it's almost like people in this thread just haven't seen all that RP that goes on.
The above is mostly true for gemmed, where I have to keep giving kudos left and right because I get to enjoy scenes of torture or disgrace and shame and or outright denial of humanity, and it's like nobody's even paying attention.
The problem probably is moreso that the RP that is out there portraying mages in the way they ought to be played is so separated as is from the RP of the mundane side that all that is seen is when they do intersect, which often may seem like a power imbalance between magick and mundane, but the experience from the (gemmed) side at least is extremely difficult to RP and the idea of a "light degree" of social stigma is way off.
I don't think I've said that people are not trying to behave properly around mages, but rather that it gets hard OOCly to do it when everyone pops up as a mage, and I
personally wish that the documented hatred was just a little more lax in Allanak, alone. I also think the primary topic of this thread, the idea of giving mundanes a way to become more attractive, is a really good line.
Personally, I've witnessed some exceptionally great mage oppression, both direct and indirect, and to be honest I probably need to also send kudos to both the oppressors and victims in a lot of these cases. But the fact remains that there've been, until now, a great many unmanifested PC witches running around, and I think the idea that for a while it seemed like every other person was a mage kind of ... kicked some people in the nuts of their low fantasy reality. Heh.
You have a good point though ... there's certainly people doing a great job at establishing a realistic setting for the mages they come across, and we can't forget them or act like they haven't been doing their part. A lot of great play from some of the mages too, in terms of presenting as one of the oppressed.
I'm part of the problem. I don't know how to stop :( I just really love the aesthetic of ritual and magick. I try to play mundanes, but I miss magick so much when I do, the characters often don't click for me as much as gickers do.
Quote from: sleepyhead on July 18, 2021, 05:16:10 PM
I'm part of the problem. I don't know how to stop :( I just really love the aesthetic of ritual and magick. I try to play mundanes, but I miss magick so much when I do, the characters often don't click for me as much as gickers do.
(https://i2.wp.com/insidecroydon.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/peasants-revolting.jpg?fit=500%2C368&ssl=1)
I do agree that I rarely see Gemmed react like they're hot shit when they're being sufficiently suppressed.
For the most part, I don't think the RP is the problem. It's sheer quantity and numbers within the given population of PCs, secret and 'out' magickers alike. You just can't enter an area without bumping into one or two, and as SpyGuy points out, the 'discovering your friend is a mage' trope should become a popular folk song by now.
See, here's the thing. If you only like mages, then play mages. Play what keeps you playing. I do NOT want people to not play because they feel forced into a role they don't like. I hate that with all my heart. That is the one thing that makes me want Gemmed/Mundane friendships to be sort of alright in Allanak alone. I don't want to be unable to play with somebody in the same locale as me because of "being ICly correct". Even if it's frowned upon ICly, I don't want players to be able to point at me, as a mundane, and say, "You're not following the docs", and that's why I wish the docs for Allanak alone would lessen, not eradicate, the hatred towards mages, to allow players to be within the docs if they cross paths with and run around with them.
Quote from: Veselka on July 18, 2021, 05:23:17 PM
I do agree that I rarely see Gemmed react like they're hot shit when they're being sufficiently suppressed.
For the most part, I don't think the RP is the problem. It's sheer quantity and numbers within the given population of PCs, secret and 'out' magickers alike. You just can't enter an area without bumping into one or two, and as SpyGuy points out, the 'discovering your friend is a mage' trope should become a popular folk song by now.
It's started to reach a point where I just desperately hope my character's new friend is *not* a mage.
Then they end up being one anyway.
Just spitballing, but what you encounter could be a shift towards people playing awhile first, because they can, as a mundane everyday sort before manifesting vs more people in the old days just starting straight away as a magicker, because trying to hide it in the Byn was pretty much impossible.
Like a normal girl/guy before their terrible abominable-ness comes to light.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 18, 2021, 06:20:16 PM
Just spitballing, but what you encounter could be a shift towards people playing awhile first, because they can, as a mundane everyday sort before manifesting vs more people in the old days just starting straight away as a magicker, because trying to hide it in the Byn was pretty much impossible.
Like a normal girl/guy before their terrible abominable-ness comes to light.
I linked Aromit's post about a random month in 2020, earlier. How far do those statistics go back? I'd be interested in seeing the same data for 2013, say, and see how it compares.
Tuluk openly is a great thing for mundanes. I am very happy (and anxious) for this! And I don't think it's a bad thing to have gicks fear the north. Now there really is a higher power that will hunt you down. The North isn't an extended tablelands! Gicks cannot hide in a place that Southern Templars cannot go. The difficulty just raised for gicks and it should. The game should be as hard for everyone (except nobles. Those rose-smelling bath soakers! Jk nobles are hard.)
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 18, 2021, 05:28:25 PM
See, here's the thing. If you only like mages, then play mages. Play what keeps you playing. I do NOT want people to not play because they feel forced into a role they don't like. I hate that with all my heart. That is the one thing that makes me want Gemmed/Mundane friendships to be sort of alright in Allanak alone. I don't want to be unable to play with somebody in the same locale as me because of "being ICly correct". Even if it's frowned upon ICly, I don't want players to be able to point at me, as a mundane, and say, "You're not following the docs", and that's why I wish the docs for Allanak alone would lessen, not eradicate, the hatred towards mages, to allow players to be within the docs if they cross paths with and run around with them.
That's a solid point!
For most people playing a magicker is this: You are playing a mundane character without a practical sub-guild. Your magickal sub-guild is either somewhat useful or utterly useless to your ever day life. Let me give you an example, lets say you can create water. Its useful if you are going to be playing a completely isolated role in the middle of nowhere or if you will be traveling a lot to remote places. However, in the places people play there is usually a place to buy water. The only times magick is really useful is to help you murder someone(only a couple spells), help you spy on people mudsexing (because sleight of hand can be unreliable), and deep extended wilderness exploration. Again assuming you picked the right sub-guild because some are really useless.
The magickal plots won't go away because those are run and supported by staff. The powerful magickers won't go away because those are often special apped defilers/mindbenders that often work with staff. And the powerful magickers won't go away because those are often sponsored roles called templars. Either way those plots aren't started or enjoyed by the random player playing a stalker/rukkian exploring a cave.
I agree that certain spells that make it easier to kill and spy freely should be looked at, however there are plenty of mundane roles you can play where if you find out your friend is a magicker its practically a death sentence for them. Eventually you'll get some friends that won't be magickers or are much better at hiding it, maintaining the mundane experience.
Let's say you're in the Rinth or UT or some semi-civilized place like that. You're told by the docs and staff that magic-users are hated, and people fear gickery. Meanwhile, established PCs are gicks.
But there's no tools for the mundane. If it's you vs. a PC and his gick-loving friends, and they can definitely win any PvP conflict, because you've nerfed yourself by not taking a magic-using class, or you've nerfed yourself by refusing to acquire magical assistance from a PC. You have to walk on eggshells or die. The best you can do is tattle to the robes, which is an un-rinthi thing to do. (or maybe tattle to the staff-run powers that be, which is going to have mix results depending on who is doing the animating. And feels like cheating besides.)
I've been on both ends of this, the ginky and mundane, and it just feels wrong from both directions. I can absolutely see where some of my gicks pushed the envelope of what should have been plausible in the rinth, and perhaps should have been slapped down for it.
Even playing in the Tuluki sphere, you're at the mercy of magic-using (and psionic) PCs. Are they going to respect the idea that it's an area of the game world where magic is punished? Or are you going to get splatted? If they choose 'splat', then eventually a Faithful will get ahold of them, maybe, but in the meantime, your PC is already dead.
Or at least, your fun times are ruined by certain extremely annoying spells (which remain in the game, despite people hating to the be targets of these spells for 20 years now.)
Generally speaking, I actually think most modern PCs are pretty good at not overstepping the bounds. But that's artificial mercy. It's the grace of our fellow players. If a player decides to play-to-win in PvP, then they should roll a magicker. There's little to no coded downside in doing so.
Quote from: number13 on July 18, 2021, 10:40:13 PM
Let's say you're in the Rinth or UT or some semi-civilized place like that. You're told by the docs and staff that magic-users are hated, and people fear gickery. Meanwhile, established PCs are gicks.
I had hoped the phrase
gick and
gickers would have died a worthy death by now. That it hasn't is quite sad indeed.
Quote from: number13 on July 18, 2021, 10:40:13 PM
...because you've nerfed yourself by not taking a magic-using class, or you've nerfed yourself by refusing to acquire magical assistance from a PC.
Nerfing and grinding is a weird way to think of a roleplaying game, IMO. That is better suited to games like WOW.
Quote from: number13 on July 18, 2021, 10:40:13 PM
Even playing in the Tuluki sphere, you're at the mercy of magic-using (and psionic) PCs. Are they going to respect the idea that it's an area of the game world where magic is punished? Or are you going to get splatted? If they choose 'splat', then eventually a Faithful will get ahold of them, maybe, but in the meantime, your PC is already dead.
No one is equal and that fear is what makes such creatures hated and feared. Why would you fear someone who couldn't splat you at will?
Or at least, your fun times are ruined by certain extremely annoying spells (which remain in the game, despite people hating to the be targets of these spells for 20 years now.)
Quote from: number13 on July 18, 2021, 10:40:13 PM
If a player decides to play-to-win in PvP, then they should roll a magicker.
What is this "win" that you speak of? Every one of my magickers, even those with a scrolling list of spells in the skill list have died and are now long forgotten.
Further, I would challenge this idea that it is "unrinthy" to report someone to the Templarate. I would argue that it is very rinthi to use whatever resources to better yourself, depending on the character's mindset. If your character is the type that would rat out a magicker (and most, in my read of the docs, would be), then absolutely do that. Or perhaps your the type to make friends with such a creature and wait for that vulnerable moment. Or speak openly about their magick-using arse and make sure everyone understands your position and that if they don't agree with you, well, they are about worthless as well.
Magick should be dangerous, feared, and overpowered. I, for one, enjoyed playing and fearing the sorcerers of old. Psionicsts as well. Now, if, as a mundane we are not treating them as the evil they are - that's a problem we own. Why isn't your character visiting the local sorcerer-king's representatives to offer whatever they must to help them kill such creatures? Why isn't your character in hourly devotions to your sorcerer king of choice praying for and end to such horror?
Quote from: Gentleboy on July 17, 2021, 09:03:35 PM
What's the downside? This is Arm. Amazing powers should have amazing consequences. I don't see many already for gicks besides death for being a secret gick and running away.
Death
Being gemmed, can't even run from templars anymore
Unable to play in most clans if known mage
Staying out of Allanak so you don't get gemmed
Stay out of Luirs or declare (thus becoming a known mage) so you don't get executed
'No consequences' is a meme if you're not playing an indie in the wilderness or Red Storm. I feel like most of the complaints about magickers being too easy or too hard to kill are coming from players that have very little experience playing one.
To add to Rashad's list..
- A high social cost
- A very real and very low glass ceiling
- Getting hunted and turned against if you try to go rogue than get discovered.. often resulting in isolation and then death
Nah, the few times I tried, I found wild mages incredibly easy to keep alive. Boringly so. Except the one where the spell changed underneath me.
Anyway, is Nilaz the natural hunter of other elemental mages?
What if tattooed Nilaz were ok in the north and used against those filthy other kinds in the south?
What if "our stanky mages" are ok and "your stanky mages" suck so the stigma isn't there for a northie/tattooed, southie/gemmed to have interaction?
Wild ones would still be fair game for all.
Wouldn't solve the too many gicker problem but would partially solve the forced loathing problem.
I like RavingTregil's idea here and the general commentary about how reopening Tuluk solves this issue. I have long been an advocate for reopening Tuluk because the benefits of having an adversary or foil are not only abundantly clear in literature but also clear in the history of actual civilizations. Incidentally as many others have noted it addresses the problem in this thread as well. Go figure!
Quote from: X-D on July 16, 2021, 08:56:25 AM
So, I agree, get rid of the aspect subs, bring back full elementalist, Keep touched.
I would probably return to the game if this ever happens. Full mages were great for casual play during odd hours with few to no interaction opportunities.
Quote from: Akaramu on July 19, 2021, 02:36:42 PM
Quote from: X-D on July 16, 2021, 08:56:25 AM
So, I agree, get rid of the aspect subs, bring back full elementalist, Keep touched.
I would probably return to the game if this ever happens. Full mages were great for casual play during odd hours with few to no interaction opportunities.
If it makes you feel better, I share the same timezone you do, and playtimes during early afternoons and such are a lot more padded now.
Quote from: Patuk on July 19, 2021, 02:37:19 PM
If it makes you feel better, I share the same timezone you do, and playtimes during early afternoons and such are a lot more padded now.
With or without travel? I can never play outdoorsy characters due to having zero direction sense ... :)
Quote from: Akaramu on July 19, 2021, 02:47:36 PM
Quote from: Patuk on July 19, 2021, 02:37:19 PM
If it makes you feel better, I share the same timezone you do, and playtimes during early afternoons and such are a lot more padded now.
With or without travel? I can never play outdoorsy characters due to having zero direction sense ... :)
Either!
Quote from: RavingTregils on July 19, 2021, 10:09:48 AM
Nah, the few times I tried, I found wild mages incredibly easy to keep alive. Boringly so. Except the one where the spell changed underneath me.
Anyway, is Nilaz the natural hunter of other elemental mages?
What if tattooed Nilaz were ok in the north and used against those filthy other kinds in the south?
What if "our stanky mages" are ok and "your stanky mages" suck so the stigma isn't there for a northie/tattooed, southie/gemmed to have interaction?
Wild ones would still be fair game for all.
Wouldn't solve the too many gicker problem but would partially solve the forced loathing problem.
I kinda dig the idea of anti-magick magickers getting the nod outta the heath - barbari -- northie --- fuck. Sun King's pals. I've also thought that if psions ever got a class breakdown like mages did, it might be cool to allow some limited, sanctioned psion play up there.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 19, 2021, 08:57:47 PM
Quote from: RavingTregils on July 19, 2021, 10:09:48 AM
Nah, the few times I tried, I found wild mages incredibly easy to keep alive. Boringly so. Except the one where the spell changed underneath me.
Anyway, is Nilaz the natural hunter of other elemental mages?
What if tattooed Nilaz were ok in the north and used against those filthy other kinds in the south?
What if "our stanky mages" are ok and "your stanky mages" suck so the stigma isn't there for a northie/tattooed, southie/gemmed to have interaction?
Wild ones would still be fair game for all.
Wouldn't solve the too many gicker problem but would partially solve the forced loathing problem.
I kinda dig the idea of anti-magick magickers getting the nod outta the heath - barbari -- northie --- fuck. Sun King's pals. I've also thought that if psions ever got a class breakdown like mages did, it might be cool to allow some limited, sanctioned psion play up there.
Loving these suggestions! I'm so glad Tuluk was announced because I do feel it solves this issue quite a bit.
To borrow a dnd term... Human psion (psychometabolic) / nilazi (anathema) as a playable northern pc. Yep. +1 vote. Sign me up.
Quote from: RavingTregils on July 19, 2021, 10:09:48 AM
What if "our stanky mages" are ok and "your stanky mages" suck so the stigma isn't there for a northie/tattooed, southie/gemmed to have interaction?
Wild ones would still be fair game for all.
I glossed over this, but this precisely is what I'd like to see. And not even "they're ok", but just not ...
sooo much hate for your own mages in order to be following docs. Right now, despite docs saying that people take Vivs with them on trips to provide water and stuff, if you actually do it or use them, everybody will act like you are breaking docs by doing it, because the
other docs say that all mundanes need to hate and mistrust all mages.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 21, 2021, 05:19:29 PM
Quote from: RavingTregils on July 19, 2021, 10:09:48 AM
What if "our stanky mages" are ok and "your stanky mages" suck so the stigma isn't there for a northie/tattooed, southie/gemmed to have interaction?
Wild ones would still be fair game for all.
I glossed over this, but this precisely is what I'd like to see. And not even "they're ok", but just not ... sooo much hate for your own mages in order to be following docs. Right now, despite docs saying that people take Vivs with them on trips to provide water and stuff, if you actually do it or use them, everybody will act like you are breaking docs by doing it, because the other docs say that all mundanes need to hate and mistrust all mages.
I'm fully in support of people tolerating mages while hating and distrusting them. Hiring them and trying to jump them in an alley later for money back. Paying for water on a trip, until misfortune falls on the caravan and the magicker is blamed. And oof the irony in a nilazi being the exact solution to some mage terrorizing a village...
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 21, 2021, 05:19:29 PM
Quote from: RavingTregils on July 19, 2021, 10:09:48 AM
What if "our stanky mages" are ok and "your stanky mages" suck so the stigma isn't there for a northie/tattooed, southie/gemmed to have interaction?
Wild ones would still be fair game for all.
I glossed over this, but this precisely is what I'd like to see. And not even "they're ok", but just not ... sooo much hate for your own mages in order to be following docs. Right now, despite docs saying that people take Vivs with them on trips to provide water and stuff, if you actually do it or use them, everybody will act like you are breaking docs by doing it, because the other docs say that all mundanes need to hate and mistrust all mages.
Gemmed are literally the enemy to northerners. Most northern tribes have their own population of witches who are ignored if they keep that shizz on the dl and keep them out of Tuluk. Has always been like that. Everyone knows SR have Krathi, they are famous for it but they always would trade in Tuluk. Gemmed? = Always an enemy.
Tuluk opening fixes everything in my eyes. No more huggle puddles.
Since this thread has sorta turned into everything magickal. I will say that I too find it sorta jarring that some of the documentation talks about folks using healing/water making abilities of vivs when they need to.
But everyone is supposed to hate/fear/kill them at every opportunity.
I'm not trying to buck the system at all, but I think that in a desert world, where water is a premium and people get hurt all the god damn time, vivs would be revered and not shunned.
Shit if they really existed I'd be trying to have one as my best friend in literal REAL EARTH lol.
Quick caveat on the topic of bucking stereotypes that there are all sorts of Vivaduans and Corruption Vivaduans are definitely ones to fear.
Caveat aside, I still don't agree with the general point.
Even if abilities are ostensibly "good," it is easy to come up with superstitious explanations for why they are "bad." We even have real life analogies; some Christian sects are averse to blood transfusions (AKA modern medicine) and their followers nearly die in surgeries because they won't have blood transfusions (example in point, Jehovah's Witnesses, Prince was one and almost died in surgery, etc). Likewise a superstitious Zalanthan might have a notion that Vivaduan healing would make them impure, cause their offspring to be mutants, etc, and therefore refuse Vivaduan healing.
I know a lot of us are smart open minded people and the idea of "superstition > logic" is jarring, but remember there isn't widespread education and literacy in Zalanthas, so "superstition > logic" is entirely appropriate here.
* no offense to Jehovah's Witnesses in this post but it actually felt like a less offensive example than the one I was going to go with (anti-vaxxers)
Oh yeah I get it, why it would be scary.
Hell it's been so long since I played one I honestly forgot what they can do for the most part.
I just think that's why some folks would have a rough time if for example, Indy hunter gatherer finds out that his dude is a water witch when he gets nearly killed by a carru and homeboy heals him.
By documentation if you hold to it like the gospel, I think he should report his dude and/or kill him for being a dirty abomination but that is a rough pill to swallow and takes all the grey out of the situation and is very black and white about it.
But then it's a tight rope of being a real thinking person with feelings and living a bit in the grey and being called out for ignoring the docs right?
I honestly think that's the hard part of a mage. Not that I can do world bending magic, but the social problems and trying to make it more intuitive than discovered mage = dead mage.
I have played with folks back in the day when the new subs came out and discovered a month after being hunting partners that my dude here is secret witch and while I've never been scolded for not insta killing/reporting him/her I always felt like I was walking on egg shells and that made me understand why some folks might be quick to kill/report because that balance is draining.
Your observations here are accurate and if anything people being quick to rat out mages shows people are following the docs well, and mages should be wary of being buddy-buddy with folk. It's not a roleplay dead end, I have seen interesting relationships develop around either helping a gicker hide their abilities or ratting them out and becoming enemies / frenemies.
I get the angst about everyone and their mom being a gicker around Allanak, sometimes it is indeed eyeroll inducing. But in the North... well they will have hide their abilities, or be killed! There's your gicker free zone folks.
I have no issue with playing a person afraid of magick. wary of magickers, reporting his homie for it, etc.
I have a problem with it potentially being an OOCl issue if I don't mindlessly fear gemmed magickers (not magick), in Allanak. Only in Nak, only with gemmed. I want to be able to play either the scared person or the accepting person, and not risk being OOC in doing either.
People can be as dumb as they wanna be, but Ages after Ages of living beside these mages really should have washed the stigma of working with them away by now. Not fucking them. Not sharing sweet nothings. But working with them, having a drink with them, etc. Especially if they appear to be your race.
That's all I'm saying. We do some dumb shit for the Highlord. Surely, the Highlord let the mages be here, so this is just some more dumb shit to deal with.
Neither the person who says, "Right on", nor the person who never talks to Roger again, should be out of character and not playing to the docs, when Roger says he had Bob the gemmed stone mage cast Rock of Gibraltar on him. That is what I want to see, and only in Allanak.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 22, 2021, 03:36:29 AM
I have no issue with playing a person afraid of magick. wary of magickers, reporting his homie for it, etc.
I have a problem with it potentially being an OOCl issue if I don't mindlessly fear gemmed magickers (not magick), in Allanak. Only in Nak, only with gemmed. I want to be able to play either the scared person or the accepting person, and not risk being OOC in doing either.
People can be as dumb as they wanna be, but Ages after Ages of living beside these mages really should have washed the stigma of working with them away by now. Not fucking them. Not sharing sweet nothings. But working with them, having a drink with them, etc. Especially if they appear to be your race.
That's all I'm saying. We do some dumb shit for the Highlord. Surely, the Highlord let the mages be here, so this is just some more dumb shit to deal with.
Neither the person who says, "Right on", nor the person who never talks to Roger again, should be out of character and not playing to the docs, when Roger says he had Bob the gemmed stone mage cast Rock of Gibraltar on him. That is what I want to see, and only in Allanak.
I agree with this! The only issue I've had is the Aspects reducing the effectiveness of the mundanes. That is all I've adamantly argued, and now that there are all these classes along with subclasses, mundanes can compete more mechanically wise. Hence why I feel that there should only be
Full Elementalists (spruced up) and Touched. There usually hasn't been a problem RP wise aside from OH? THAT GUY'S A MAGE, DANG THERE GOES ANOTHER POTENTIAL FRIEND. It shouldn't be the norm which it seems like ditching the Aspects would fix BUT ONLY BECAUSE the new class system exists.
I keep being told that Full Elementalists were aplenty in the past then well guess what, you just fixed the issue by necessitating the need for more mundanes (don't forget that merchants used to be able to craft everything basically but they no longer exist along with the fact that rangers don't either so no matter what you choose you'll be missing a bit of something and as it exists right now MAGES cover for those missing bits in your main class by just adding to your already existing mundane power) since the mages WHO AREN'T Touched can't be your group's all powerful mage AND fight like a full on warrior simultaneously. You're gonna need your mundane buddy for that craft, Magey-Wagey UNLESS you choose to have a crafting sub on a mage which sounds like even harder mode ;D but power to the player.
This change would fix another grand issue with the amounts of players there are such as Gemmed being fewer but still necessary since you'd start seeing each elementalist finding a place and use for Allanaki clans/Templars etc. A Full Elementalist would need to rely on their mundane buddies (or other mages even) to get a job done while at the same time being able to accomplish all that their magick is intended for should a Templar or other party require it.
Mage players would be happy, mundanes would be happy, and I'd be very happy cuz I love Touched so much!!
I should add that it'd probably be okay to keep Nilazi as it is (sorry folks) because it does exist as an antithesis to magickers. And being able to hide it more easily (through it being a sub) makes complete sense but maybe it could use some buffing considering it gets more flak ICly than even mindworms and sorcs.
I think the original argument for not having full mages was to be a person first and not just a mage.
Full mages were super easy to spot and class sniff due to them sucking at literally everything but magery.
Plus they would tend to be secluded all day long in temples span casting to branch spells to super splat spell or that one pvp spell they all have before they would actually start playing as a real person.
So the idea of the mundane skills and aspect is that they could pass for a normal person and not just sit casting Mon create fruitloops for seven days to branch create beer.
I played quite a few full mages back in the day and playing a non gemmed was almost impossible due to your frailness and playing a gemmed was a lot of spam casting to branch and little else.
So that is why I think you got a lot of people joining the Byn or being Amos the hunter for a while to get a good base of being able to survive the random monster before they become the fireball throwing witch and the trope of my buddy is a secret witch comes up so often.
Quote from: Pariah on July 22, 2021, 07:50:03 AM
I think the original argument for not having full mages was to be a person first and not just a mage.
Full mages were super easy to spot and class sniff due to them sucking at literally everything but magery.
Plus they would tend to be secluded all day long in temples span casting to branch spells to super splat spell or that one pvp spell they all have before they would actually start playing as a real person.
So the idea of the mundane skills and aspect is that they could pass for a normal person and not just sit casting Mon create fruitloops for seven days to branch create beer.
I played quite a few full mages back in the day and playing a non gemmed was almost impossible due to your frailness and playing a gemmed was a lot of spam casting to branch and little else.
So that is why I think you got a lot of people joining the Byn or being Amos the hunter for a while to get a good base of being able to survive the random monster before they become the fireball throwing witch and the trope of my buddy is a secret witch comes up so often.
Right! I'm not arguing that isn't the case. But I think it's pretty clear that there has been plenty of time to test whether or not the Aspects were a success and since we're on the topic of change (the re-introduction of Tuluk) then the mages can have their place without be legitimately everywhere (unless you want the Aspect-feel of picking a Touched or Nilazi and still being able to be a hidden elementalist).
And on top of that! They don't have to feel bad for being a mage because they'll realize that they have their place in the world. If they want to go hard mode and not spam cast in a temple somewhere then they have that option while still being effective. Guild-sniffing is going to happen regardless of what you do, I've had PCs sniff mine out intentionally or no because if you have any experience with each class, you're going to know what that person is or at the very least narrow it done. It's an inevitably if you spend time around that character and have chats with them.
The reason I bring up the "feeling bad for playing a mage" is because of the balance mechanically as it exists. Back when they were full mages, you wouldn't have to worry about them pulling out the stops (and if they do then well they're obviously a knowledge PvPer, you were doomed to begin with) aside from a few mundane tricks. They couldn't be both a master sneak and mount rider with wilderness quit like a Ranger or an advanced weapon wielding Warrior or a thiefy/connivy Burglar/Pickpocket (though I was always of the opinion those two classes should have been merged). Anyhow! My point is that when you break it down: Full Elementalists bring about less of a balance issue than the Aspects. Balance is important because whether you like it or not, people will play that itch that'll scratch them over willingly choosing a mundane that will perform more poorly than an Aspected character. It's just the truth, and mage players shouldn't be punished more than they are ICly for being a mage, I feel that it is enough as is. Instead they should have the risk of being less effective than mundanes in mundanity while being uncontested in their magick.
The too many mages complaint/issue comes up every now and then, usually when there's some magick hijinks grinding people's gears. I agree that right now we're probably seeing more magickers because it's easier to have a meaningful manifestation story, instead of just rolling into the game as a gemmed because trying to pass yourself off as not a hidden witch won't work.
That said, I would love, love, love for mundanes to be given coded ways to accomplish the less magical things that spells can accomplish. Tie someone up, blindfold them, shove a cloth in their mouth, break down doors, build a barrier in the desert with enough effort and time, etc. Have wanted this for years. Will continue to want.
I'd also love for spice buffs to not work on manifested mages except for that one spice. Mages get ways to buff themselves. Leave spice buffs for mundanes. Maybe it makes mages not able to magic or something idk.
Of course, I'm biased since I more or less suck at playing mages. That spell grind, ugh.
As far as full mages go, I still think it would be nice to have as an option.
Quote from: valeria on July 22, 2021, 08:18:17 AM
That said, I would love, love, love for mundanes to be given coded ways to accomplish the less magical things that spells can accomplish. Tie someone up, blindfold them, shove a cloth in their mouth, break down doors, build a barrier in the desert with enough effort and time, etc. Have wanted this for years. Will continue to want.
I'd also love for spice buffs to not work on manifested mages except for that one spice. Mages get ways to buff themselves. Leave spice buffs for mundanes. Maybe it makes mages not able to magic or something idk.
I won't deny that having those mechanics would be welcome! But as they exist currently, both mundanes and mages would have access to these tools. As well they should hence why the simpler solution would be to have Full Elementalists and Touched only because Aspects give too much power for the already sufficient-enough mundane. They'll be more powerful mundanes because the mundane subclasses cannot compete with magick nor should they really, magick should be special and have its place. That's why mages should be fully attuned to their magick, not missing spells here and there for no reason like the Aspects do. Touched make sense because the connection to their element is different.
That spice idea is cool though, I'll admit. And maybe when mundanes use that one spice they just receive no benefits as I'm pretty sure they already don't? I dunno!
Chiming in to say +1 to making spice actually useful, be it through the means valeria recommends or otherwise. It came up in a discussion about a year ago: more ranges in spice quality is another good idea worth reviving/mentioning. The spice trade currently pays crap, it would be fun to be able to sneak some high quality knots into Allanak and cook up a ton of crappy adulterated spice to sell in the 'rinth. People make billions off the drug trade today IRL but in Zalanthas you're lucky if you make as much coin smuggling spice as you can working in the salt flats.
Quote from: triste on July 22, 2021, 08:47:33 AM
Chiming in to say +1 to making spice actually useful, be it through the means valeria recommends or otherwise. It came up in a discussion about a year ago: more ranges in spice quality is another good idea worth reviving/mentioning. The spice trade currently pays crap, it would be fun to be able to sneak some high quality knots into Allanak and cook up a ton of crappy adulterated spice to sell in the 'rinth. People make billions off the drug trade today IRL but in Zalanthas you're lucky if you make as much coin smuggling spice as you can working in the salt flats.
+1 to making spice actually worth being a Dust Runner for
Quote from: Pariah on July 22, 2021, 07:50:03 AM
I think the original argument for not having full mages was to be a person first and not just a mage.
Full mages were super easy to spot and class sniff due to them sucking at literally everything but magery.
Plus they would tend to be secluded all day long in temples span casting to branch spells to super splat spell or that one pvp spell they all have before they would actually start playing as a real person.
In my opinion, I don't think the subguilds did one bit of good in decreasing the mage grind. They very much still hide away getting powerful, they just have a much longer grind to deal with now since you have those slow moving combat skills to work on.
Y'all convince staff to bring back Full mages and I might just have time to play again. As let's be honest, full mages are quicker to get to a useful level than a mundane and my only issue with this game currently is the time it takes to become a useful PC as I do not have time for the mundane grind. (I'm not a social player please don't tell me I can be impactful with no skills, I'm super aware some of you love that stuff. I'm a solo indie player who plays in the wilderness, it's just what I enjoy)
Radical suggestion: make subguilds only full mages can pick that are like mini fullguilds to give them a profession and focus outside being a mage but that isn't as powerful or fleshed out as the full guilds. A'la sorcerer and psionicist subs, except better (and those could use improvement, too). That way the meta isn't automatically "why would I ever pick a mundane if I want to be p o w a h f u l and becomes more about the flavor and purpose of the character concept. Having aspects has also severely bloated the need for mages in certain clans due to not having a full, synergized compliment of spells in one person. That has also led to the feeling of magickal oversaturation, at no fault to the clans who need/want those different abilities that are currently split up by aspect and thus by character.
To sum: bring back full mages, keep touched, and change mage subclasses to be "mundane mage-only" subclasses that provide purpose, guild sniff cover, and flexibility to full mages that would be lacking in current e/sg options.
Quote from: Delirium on July 22, 2021, 10:43:36 AM
Radical suggestion: make subguilds only full mages can pick that are like mini fullguilds to give them a profession and focus outside being a mage but that isn't as powerful or fleshed out as the full guilds. A'la sorcerer and psionicist subs, except better (and those could use improvement, too). That way the meta isn't automatically "why would I ever pick a mundane if I want to be p o w a h f u l and becomes more about the flavor and purpose of the character concept. Having aspects has also severely bloated the need for mages in certain clans due to not having a full, synergized compliment of spells in one person. That has also led to the feeling of magickal oversaturation, at no fault to the clans who need/want those different abilities that are currently split up by aspect and thus by character.
To sum: bring back full mages, keep touched, and change mage subclasses to be "mundane mage-only" subclasses that provide purpose, guild sniff cover, and flexibility to full mages that would be lacking in current e/sg options.
Heh, this is going full circle, as the original intent of the subclasses was to give some of the mages some fleshed out skills.
Quote from: mansa on July 22, 2021, 11:16:42 AM
Quote from: Delirium on July 22, 2021, 10:43:36 AM
Radical suggestion: make subguilds only full mages can pick that are like mini fullguilds to give them a profession and focus outside being a mage but that isn't as powerful or fleshed out as the full guilds. A'la sorcerer and psionicist subs, except better (and those could use improvement, too). That way the meta isn't automatically "why would I ever pick a mundane if I want to be p o w a h f u l and becomes more about the flavor and purpose of the character concept. Having aspects has also severely bloated the need for mages in certain clans due to not having a full, synergized compliment of spells in one person. That has also led to the feeling of magickal oversaturation, at no fault to the clans who need/want those different abilities that are currently split up by aspect and thus by character.
To sum: bring back full mages, keep touched, and change mage subclasses to be "mundane mage-only" subclasses that provide purpose, guild sniff cover, and flexibility to full mages that would be lacking in current e/sg options.
Heh, this is going full circle, as the original intent of the subclasses was to give some of the mages some fleshed out skills.
I personally think it was also intended to make mages a bit weaker by breaking up their spell synergies, it simply wasn't ever stated outright by staff. But let's be honest, a ton of us didn't like it when they broke them up and still don't love it. It's not the main reason I've backed off playing, but saying it isn't a decent portion of the reason would be a lie. I want my mage to be a mage, not a ranger with x-men abilities.
Quote from: Strongheart on July 22, 2021, 09:20:32 AM
Quote from: triste on July 22, 2021, 08:47:33 AM
Chiming in to say +1 to making spice actually useful, be it through the means valeria recommends or otherwise. It came up in a discussion about a year ago: more ranges in spice quality is another good idea worth reviving/mentioning. The spice trade currently pays crap, it would be fun to be able to sneak some high quality knots into Allanak and cook up a ton of crappy adulterated spice to sell in the 'rinth. People make billions off the drug trade today IRL but in Zalanthas you're lucky if you make as much coin smuggling spice as you can working in the salt flats.
+1 to making spice actually worth being a Dust Runner for
Make the effects of war spice last a few in game days and increase and extend the repercussions for withdrawal and addiction. If I only need one or two pinches per play session instead of every ten minutes it would be much more useful.
Quote from: th3kaiser on July 22, 2021, 11:47:29 AM
Quote from: mansa on July 22, 2021, 11:16:42 AM
Quote from: Delirium on July 22, 2021, 10:43:36 AM
Radical suggestion: make subguilds only full mages can pick that are like mini fullguilds to give them a profession and focus outside being a mage but that isn't as powerful or fleshed out as the full guilds. A'la sorcerer and psionicist subs, except better (and those could use improvement, too). That way the meta isn't automatically "why would I ever pick a mundane if I want to be p o w a h f u l and becomes more about the flavor and purpose of the character concept. Having aspects has also severely bloated the need for mages in certain clans due to not having a full, synergized compliment of spells in one person. That has also led to the feeling of magickal oversaturation, at no fault to the clans who need/want those different abilities that are currently split up by aspect and thus by character.
To sum: bring back full mages, keep touched, and change mage subclasses to be "mundane mage-only" subclasses that provide purpose, guild sniff cover, and flexibility to full mages that would be lacking in current e/sg options.
Heh, this is going full circle, as the original intent of the subclasses was to give some of the mages some fleshed out skills.
I personally think it was also intended to make mages a bit weaker by breaking up their spell synergies, it simply wasn't ever stated outright by staff. But let's be honest, a ton of us didn't like it when they broke them up and still don't love it. It's not the main reason I've backed off playing, but saying it isn't a decent portion of the reason would be a lie. I want my mage to be a mage, not a ranger with x-men abilities.
No, no.
When subclasses launched in 2000, the intent was to give full mage classes some fleshed out skills.
When subclasses were first added, Staff even said at the time, it was to give all the classes a bit of flavor, not to make it so mages had some other skills, But to give flavor to the main classes, mage or mundane. Hell the first subclasses were all focused to compliment mundane classes...Staff even called them more of a "hobby" That is why they all maxed pretty low, they were not intended to be any type of fleshed out class. They did very little to compliment or even help mage classes much. One could argue that the extended subs had a bit more mage in mind. Though not much. And now Subs are something you HAVE to have...to fill out many of the mundane classes, which I find rather sad.
The Aspect system was to make mages weaker, And people could argue otherwise, and make claim that was not intent, But is so successful as to make that claim rather hard to believe.
Low quality full subs for full mages...Meh, I could get behind that.
Nevermind
Edit: Mansa, I just realized we're talking about different things. I was talking specifically about mage subclasses, not subclasses from the year 2000. So I'm dumb!
Quote from: X-D on July 22, 2021, 12:33:59 PM
Low quality full subs for full mages...Meh, I could get behind that.
Basically, re-work the full sorcerer and psionicist subclasses to be more robust, open them to full elementalist classes, and add more of them to replace the current "aspect" subclasses-- these new subguilds would also be open to psionicists. Remove aspects, keep Touched as a subguild, and return full elementalists to the game (and take the opportunity to tweak the synergy of the spell lists, if needed. For the most part they already synergized well. That was the best part, coming up with creative ways to combine and apply them).
Give the new subs similar skills and branch paths as normal guild/sub combinations so they're difficult to impossible to sniff, but cap the skills lower. I'm envisioning a mix of combat-heavy, mixed utility, or pure utility subguilds, just like the current full guilds, but with a much wider variety of skills offered than the current E/SGs, since E/SGs are meant to compliment a main class.
Personally, I would like to see all options available to play. Full guild, touched, and aspected, as well as more fleshed out subclasses to make wilderness-based elementalists less........ Jank.
I wanna see everything from that full-on "I'm a mage before anything else" to the blend of unpredictable buffed out raider/vivcorruption, to the near-mundane stuff touched gets.
The hope is to lower the amount of magickers in the game, especially the very tired "omg everyone I know turned out to be a magicker" trope, and bringing back full elementalists without removing the aspects would NOT accomplish that. :P
Make Mundanes better at Mundane skills. Previously elementalists couldn't use most mundane skills at all, now they can. But there's no rule they have to be as good as a mundane at what the mundane does (I mean there is, but there doesn't have to be).
You could do this in a couple of ways:
1) Lower the caps on mundane skills when you pick an elementalist subguild. You could drop by just enough to still let them branch their skills, but prevent them from getting higher than that.
2) Improve a mundane's ability to learn mundane skills (effectively increasing their wisdom for skill purposes only).
3) Add special skills to the mundane subguilds that only exist on those subguilds.
4) Give mundanes a passive bonus to all mundane skills. They're just 5% better at everything (pulling that number out of my posterior) because they have to rely on their mundane abilities entirely.
5) Give elementalists a passive penalty to all mundane skills. They're just 5% worse at everything because they have to divert their attention to their magic as they develop. (This is like the above solution, but doesn't power creep).
Magickers should not be stronger. The topic is how to have less of them, without further nerfs.
I think the answer is:
1. Tuluk
2. Mundane Buffs
Actually, somebody suggested spice being made to last longer. What if Spice is something that only works for mundane people, and it lasted longer?
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 22, 2021, 09:06:00 PM
Actually, somebody suggested spice being made to last longer. What if Spice is something that only works for mundane people, and it lasted longer?
Then it still isn't really an equivalent to the stuff whirans do I can't talk about, but now mundanes have better stats occasionally, I guess.
Extend anti-magick field to span and morins, in a radius. Also stop sorcerers from casting in it. Make preserver far less mana efficient, to encourage more defilers.
Quote from: Patuk on July 22, 2021, 09:11:24 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 22, 2021, 09:06:00 PM
Actually, somebody suggested spice being made to last longer. What if Spice is something that only works for mundane people, and it lasted longer?
Then it still isn't really an equivalent to the stuff whirans do I can't talk about, but now mundanes have better stats occasionally, I guess.
Well, I didn't mean it would match them, of course, doing
that ... it was one of those "mundane only" perks ...
I would think, magickers are more common now than in various times in Arm's history. It has happened many times. And it is dependent on current roles to experience. I think if you look at it from an ic perspective, it can be fun and interesting. Maybe younger and newer players are exploring roles and setting. Maybe some are working with the guild/subguild combinations to tell the character story they want.
It gravitates to some more than others. It did me more in past.
As for witch hunters, old ranger guild/subguilded Nilazi with the aspect of Nil. :)
I am still of opinion that mages are 10x more dangerous now Po plot they were when they were full mages. Not every aspect, but many many many.
Quote from: Dar on July 23, 2021, 11:24:27 AM
I am still of opinion that mages are 10x more dangerous now Po plot they were when they were full mages. Not every aspect, but many many many.
Agreed.
Plus, some aspects' abilities make it much easier to harvest poisons solo that some of the mob/combat changes over the last few years have made it so much more difficult for a solo mundane to do.
Another solution without nerfing current mage aspects:
2 karma mundane extended subguilds that give you master.
If I could play Raider or Enforcer with master stealth/scan, I wouldn't feel like I'm missing out on what a Raider/Aspect can do.
Likewise, if I spend 2 karma to have a Stalker/Combat Specialist that had increased O/D caps, or master parry/shield use. Of fuck, master archery.
Maybe someone suggested it already, but ya. some master skill subclasses for two karma would be the tits.
The new Classes/Subclasses are cool for magickers, but they don't hold a candle to playing the old Ranger class.
Quote from: roughneck on July 23, 2021, 11:50:49 AM
Quote from: Dar on July 23, 2021, 11:24:27 AM
I am still of opinion that mages are 10x more dangerous now Po plot they were when they were full mages. Not every aspect, but many many many.
Agreed.
Plus, some aspects' abilities make it much easier to harvest poisons solo that some of the mob/combat changes over the last few years have made it so much more difficult for a solo mundane to do.
Yeah, but all of the increased scary stuff (I only think like three of them are genuinely scarier than full guilds and I think the character creation numbers would prove that out if staff published them) is entirely because they're mundane main guilds first. They're scarier because they're less magey and more mundane. Full guild mages didn't even get skinning for fuck's sake and couldn't use those insta-kill poisons. Poisons USED to be a big balancing point against mages.
Quote from: roughneck on July 23, 2021, 11:55:41 AM
Another solution without nerfing current mage aspects:
2 karma mundane extended subguilds that give you master.
If I could play Raider or Enforcer with master stealth/scan, I wouldn't feel like I'm missing out on what a Raider/Aspect can do.
Likewise, if I spend 2 karma to have a Stalker/Combat Specialist that had increased O/D caps, or master parry/shield use. Of fuck, master archery.
Maybe someone suggested it already, but ya. some master skill subclasses for two karma would be the tits.
The new Classes/Subclasses are cool for magickers, but they don't hold a candle to playing the old Ranger class.
When we were originally looking at the class changes and thinking about how to make the game somewhat easier from a just in the game now need to skill grind perspective, we were thinking about 2 sets of classes. One set that looks like the current ones but starting skills more on the order of the old guilds. And one set of karma classes with higher starting skills than the current ones. Which couldn't be picked in conjunction with a mage subclass. Ultimately we decided we didn't want to just make it easier for folks with karma, but for everyone.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 23, 2021, 12:55:09 PM
Quote from: roughneck on July 23, 2021, 11:55:41 AM
Another solution without nerfing current mage aspects:
2 karma mundane extended subguilds that give you master.
If I could play Raider or Enforcer with master stealth/scan, I wouldn't feel like I'm missing out on what a Raider/Aspect can do.
Likewise, if I spend 2 karma to have a Stalker/Combat Specialist that had increased O/D caps, or master parry/shield use. Of fuck, master archery.
Maybe someone suggested it already, but ya. some master skill subclasses for two karma would be the tits.
The new Classes/Subclasses are cool for magickers, but they don't hold a candle to playing the old Ranger class.
When we were originally looking at the class changes and thinking about how to make the game somewhat easier from a just in the game now need to skill grind perspective, we were thinking about 2 sets of classes. One set that looks like the current ones but starting skills more on the order of the old guilds. And one set of karma classes with higher starting skills than the current ones. Which couldn't be picked in conjunction with a mage subclass. Ultimately we decided we didn't want to just make it easier for folks with karma, but for everyone.
And I think it's great! The starting skills are much more playable out of the gate. Very positive change.
But I was talking skill caps, not starting skills. If the extended subclasses could get useful skills capped to Master level, they would be way more tasty. By useful I mean stealth, offensive, defensive, etc. What's the difference from a balance/abuse perspective of giving someone master backstab in a subclass, or the ability to shoot fireballs? Or Master Parry, Master Stealth, etc. The utility difference between Advanced and Master is pretty significant.
Relating back to the thread. I think folks pick mage subclasses because if you have the karma, you feel like you might as well use it, and players may feel like they'll have a more badass PC with what's offered there vs mundane subclasses that cap at advanced levels and lack a wow factor.
Spending karma for some higher max rather then higher starting...I might never play another mage...Heh.
As to any of the aspects being more powerful/scarier then full mages.....Um....No. None of them. Only one is maybe equal with the right main. Other then that, Nah, not even in the same kingdom, let alone species.
Keep in mind, at no time on here am I considering sorcs, who are, arguably more scary now.
Well, here's a good point. Right now, you can use your karma for race/class combos that reach your karma max. I forget what the breakdown is. But your race has a cost, 0-2, I think. Class has no cost, and subclasses have a 0-2 karma cost. You can spec app for a combo reaching above your karma level by a point, for a max of 4 for anyone.
But if a third comb of class/sub-classes were worked into that mathematic equation, then I feel like that would be pretty cool. Maybe new higher capped/starting main classes costing 1-2 karma.
Like I said, we went another direction because there is already stuff behind a karma gate.
If we are spit-balling to solve the original stated problem though....
You play a mundane. Stuff.
You start another mundane.
Your starting skills in their area of focus start X higher based on Stuff. Lets say 5.
More Stuff.
You start another mundane.
Your starting skills in their area of focus start X+Y higher based on Stuff and More Stuff. Lets say 11.
Your starting skills in other areas start Y higher. That'd be 6.
Lots More Stuff, with this long lived character.
You start another mundane.
Your starting skills in their area of focus and in other areas have reached the cap due to all the damn Stuff and start there. Lets say +20 in everything.
You die before any Stuff.
You start another mundane.
Your starting skills are still +20 everything.
You start a magicker.
No increased start skills.
You start a mundane.
Starting a magicker caused the whole chain to reset to zero. No increased start skills.
Sign me up.
I will be Highlander.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 23, 2021, 01:48:12 PM
Like I said, we went another direction because there is already stuff behind a karma gate.
If we are spit-balling to solve the original stated problem though....
You play a mundane. Stuff.
You start another mundane.
Your starting skills in their area of focus start X higher based on Stuff. Lets say 5.
More Stuff.
You start another mundane.
Your starting skills in their area of focus start X+Y higher based on Stuff and More Stuff. Lets say 11.
Your starting skills in other areas start Y higher. That'd be 6.
Lots More Stuff, with this long lived character.
You start another mundane.
Your starting skills in their area of focus and in other areas have reached the cap due to all the damn Stuff and start there. Lets say +20 in everything.
You die before any Stuff.
You start another mundane.
Your starting skills are still +20 everything.
You start a magicker.
No increased start skills.
You start a mundane.
Starting a magicker caused the whole chain to reset to zero. No increased start skills.
Ooohhh ... like, encouraging you to continue playing mundanes by carrying over some of the time/work from one mundane character to another. I kind of like that, actually. That's not a bad idea at all.
Sign me up as well.
100% here for this. Absolutely brilliant.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 23, 2021, 01:48:12 PM
Like I said, we went another direction because there is already stuff behind a karma gate.
If we are spit-balling to solve the original stated problem though....
You play a mundane. Stuff.
You start another mundane.
Your starting skills in their area of focus start X higher based on Stuff. Lets say 5.
More Stuff.
You start another mundane.
Your starting skills in their area of focus start X+Y higher based on Stuff and More Stuff. Lets say 11.
Your starting skills in other areas start Y higher. That'd be 6.
Lots More Stuff, with this long lived character.
You start another mundane.
Your starting skills in their area of focus and in other areas have reached the cap due to all the damn Stuff and start there. Lets say +20 in everything.
You die before any Stuff.
You start another mundane.
Your starting skills are still +20 everything.
You start a magicker.
No increased start skills.
You start a mundane.
Starting a magicker caused the whole chain to reset to zero. No increased start skills.
It would alleviate some of the grind for sure, plus I think it would level out the mundane and magicker ratio a bit as some folks wouldn't want to restart their "mundane chain".
Not to mention that one Karma guys like myself would be predisposed to have the "mundane chain" pretty high.
My only concern would be balancing out how long the mundane needs to live in either real life time or days played to ensure folks are being reckless just to get that next skill bump.
I know personally whenever I try something new, I tend to have a high fatality rate because all I really know is some light magicker knowledge and ranger type play.
Criminal or merchants tend to die quickly for me.
One issue I have with playing a magicker completely resetting the chain ... Doesn't that potentially just give incentive to continue playing a magicker at that point?
Maybe having it drop off one of the bonuses. Instead of fully reset to the beginning.
The point is to have some sort of mechanical / coded aspect that makes it a disadvantage to consistently play magick characters.
Currently that's the karma regeneration code, that blocks players from applying within 30/60/90 days.
Quote from: mansa on July 23, 2021, 05:37:25 PM
The point is to have some sort of mechanical / coded aspect that makes it a disadvantage to consistently play magick characters.
I think, actually, that it is less of about a disadvantage to magickers, and more of an advantage to people that play consistent mundane characters.
Quote from: creeper386 on July 23, 2021, 04:24:48 PM
One issue I have with playing a magicker completely resetting the chain ... Doesn't that potentially just give incentive to continue playing a magicker at that point?
Maybe having it drop off one of the bonuses. Instead of fully reset to the beginning.
That's not a terrible idea.
I really like Brokkr's proposal, but I'll concur with the people pointing out that this encourages people to keep playing what they were already playing.
For Mundanes that's probably fine. But likewise it'll also ellicit a sort of 'sunk cost' psychology in people that are already playing magick characters, propelling some to rarely leave that train so to speak.
A few ways to discourage this:
1) Gradual die off of benefits rather than losing everything after a single magicker. This would disincentivize short trains, but unfortunately wouldn't provide any disincentive towards long runs of magickers once they were already progressed a ways.
2) Create a static benefit to mundanes that's accumulated through play. When you play a mundane you get it, when you don't you don't. But going back to mundane you haven't lost anything. This would incentivize people to take breaks from runs of magickers to avoid the upcoming grind when creating a new character, but doesn't incentivize people to play long runs of mundanes.
3) Plateauing gains. You get the most gain to future characters after a single mundane, with a slowing of progress thereafter as you play more and more mundanes in a row. This is kind of a compromise system that let's people get a lot of benefit as soon as they get off the magicker train, but not /quite/ as much as someone that's been playing a string of mundanes.
That's all I could come up with off the top of my head, but I'm sure there's probably a dozen other ways to address it. I personally favor the plateauing gains, where you get the most benefit off your first mundane, but still get some from playing a long chain of them.
Playing a magicker after you've already played a magicker should be the mirror opposite of playing a mundane after you've played another mundane.
Play one magicker, you're fine... Another magicker in a row? You start with -5 in every skills... Another magicker after that? The curse of magick is truly upon you! -10 to every starting skills.
That is awesome Brokkr!
Quote from: Malken on July 23, 2021, 08:47:46 PM
Playing a magicker after you've already played a magicker should be the mirror opposite of playing a mundane after you've played another mundane.
Play one magicker, you're fine... Another magicker in a row? You start with -5 in every skills... Another magicker after that? The curse of magick is truly upon you! -10 to every starting skills.
I think this and The mundane chain would make magickers more rarely played and line up with the docs of elementalists being rare which they definitely are not.
Plus if it causes cascading lowering of starting skills or skill gain to play witch after witch after witch then they will literally be unable to continue doing that. Because it will get to a point they are impossible to play.
Quote from: Malken on July 23, 2021, 08:47:46 PM
Playing a magicker after you've already played a magicker should be the mirror opposite of playing a mundane after you've played another mundane.
Play one magicker, you're fine... Another magicker in a row? You start with -5 in every skills... Another magicker after that? The curse of magick is truly upon you! -10 to every starting skills.
Hard pass for me, no need to punish one type of player while offering a bonus to another. The bonus is enough. Magickers are already gated by karma, so one early death and it's no more gicks anyway.
All I am really saying that if this is a problem, there are probably targeted ways to go about it. Rather than open up full mages (which really does come across as a suggestion with ulterior motives) and cross fingers.
I wouldn't even mind bringing those old classes back and most of the OMG-ish-ness that came with them, but I'd certainly not want to punish people that only want to play magickers. It's super important that we don't make their playing careers harder, because I'd rather play with a mage than with nobody.
I love the idea of rewarding mundane loyalty. I hate the idea of punishing mage loyalty.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 23, 2021, 10:18:11 PM
...
I love the idea of rewarding mundane loyalty. I hate the idea of punishing mage loyalty.
I feel that any perk or coded
advantage for choosing a particular class and not choosing another particular class will be seen as BOTH a reward and a punishment at the same time.
"I am being punished for not getting bonuses to skills, which is now the standard expectation of picking a class."
People already
feel that not choosing an extended subclasses is
a penalty.
People already
feel that not being able to choose a subclass they want to play is
a penalty and have stated they won't engage with the game until their karma has been restored.
Quote from: mansa on July 23, 2021, 10:32:01 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 23, 2021, 10:18:11 PM
...
I love the idea of rewarding mundane loyalty. I hate the idea of punishing mage loyalty.
I feel that any perk or coded advantage for choosing a particular class and not choosing another particular class will be seen as BOTH a reward and a punishment at the same time.
"I am being punished for not getting bonuses to skills, which is now the standard expectation of picking a class."
People already feel that not choosing an extended subclasses is a penalty.
People already feel that not being able to choose a subclass they want to play is a penalty and have stated they won't engage with the game until their karma has been restored.
It will be. By some. But these things exist in degrees.
People may feel somewhat punished by not getting a perk. They'll feel a lot more punished by getting a penalty.
Quote from: mansa on July 23, 2021, 10:32:01 PM
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 23, 2021, 10:18:11 PM
...
I love the idea of rewarding mundane loyalty. I hate the idea of punishing mage loyalty.
I feel that any perk or coded advantage for choosing a particular class and not choosing another particular class will be seen as BOTH a reward and a punishment at the same time.
"I am being punished for not getting bonuses to skills, which is now the standard expectation of picking a class."
People already feel that not choosing an extended subclasses is a penalty.
People already feel that not being able to choose a subclass they want to play is a penalty and have stated they won't engage with the game until their karma has been restored.
Ultimately this is the sad fact.
I have one Karma, I did a 1 karma role, died literally immediately and had to sorta force myself to just make a regular old no Karma character.
I can imagine it's even more difficult the more options you unlock with 2 and 3.
So I'd say that's the difficulty, do you gatekeeper the game so that folks literally won't play till they can pick what they want?
Or do you just let them do whatever they want to keep them playing regularly?
Balancing these things has to be a fucking nightmare.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 23, 2021, 10:13:54 PM
All I am really saying that if this is a problem, there are probably targeted ways to go about it. Rather than open up full mages (which really does come across as a suggestion with ulterior motives) and cross fingers.
That's a fair critique though there's no ulterior motive having to do with gameplay power anyway. I'd much rather play a Touched over a Full if it meant I could be a main class I want to attach a bit of magick to. While at the same time having the Full Elementalists back as main classes (Aspects removed save Nilazi) so mage players could perform their full tasks to whatever position they'd be in magically while relying on their mundane counterparts or other type elementalists. Bahak, Water Gavram, Stone Braxat, Water Carru, the Circle, Specialists... all these roles would benefit because they're intended to be centered on that element. Instead you'll have people just selecting a different Aspect of that element as if it were an entirely different selection than their former role even though they're still a Krathi WHICH means a desired interest in playing more Aspects because they want to see what it does. Anyway, Touched could perform these roles as well but in a different vein than a Full Elementalist, more mundane but talented because they have the strengths of a better balance in magick and mundanity, which would make them desirable for their versatility that a Full Mage wouldn't be capable of.
It would also encourage people from stepping on one another's shoes, I certainly feel discouraged when I come into a mage-oriented clan only to realize someone has the same Aspect. So if anything that'd be my ulterior motive is for sponsored or clanned mages to be fully realized instead of hard to RP around roles. "That Krathi can't shoot a fireball? That Whiran can't fly?" Which creates this artificial need for more of that element in the role should that clan deem it necessary to have it. UNLESS that group had that elementalist in which case, I doubt someone would have a desire to join the clan only to be snuffed out by the superior in their element (people love the gratification of their character feeling useful and not redundant in a group). Either way, I've seen an elementalist demand from IG leaders that want ANOTHER Whiran because they can perform a task that the other cannot due to having a different spell which seems kinda meta but I can't really blame them I guess though it just creates a need for more of that mage. You should expect that Ruk to do Ruk things or maybe they're talented in a different way such as being a better fighter than other mages who can climb, forage well, and hunt down a target due to a connection that's more physical than magickal or whatever.
Anywho, if that's not a proper solution to make mages feel needed but not to the point of overabundance so that mage players can enjoy their magical pursuits be it Gemmed or no while mundanes can flourish in their own field, maybe your idea would work better. I do wonder if that mundane grind-skip benefit would apply to half-giants and muls who have a reputably harder grind than the other races after someone plays a mundane human or elf etc then makes the mul or HG ??? might create a silly strategy lol but I like the suggestion otherwise!
Quote from: Brokkr on July 23, 2021, 10:13:54 PM
All I am really saying that if this is a problem, there are probably targeted ways to go about it. Rather than open up full mages (which really does come across as a suggestion with ulterior motives) and cross fingers.
This
Also let's see how it goes with Tuluk back rather than talking about something that may be already solved.
Fair enough!
Weeeeellll, okay, but talking is fun!
All true. I'm curious to see if Tuluk remedies the issue too tbh!
Quote from: Inks on July 24, 2021, 03:24:59 AM
Quote from: Brokkr on July 23, 2021, 10:13:54 PM
All I am really saying that if this is a problem, there are probably targeted ways to go about it. Rather than open up full mages (which really does come across as a suggestion with ulterior motives) and cross fingers.
This
Also let's see how it goes with Tuluk back rather than talking about something that may be already solved.
Brokkr's idea would actually potentially solve two issues though; Reduced time available to play as the player base ages and the dominance of magick play. That's something people have been talking about for a while as well.
Quote from: Narf on July 24, 2021, 07:19:22 AM
... Reduced time available to play as the player base ages ...
This is what grabs me the most!
I also +1 Brokkr's idea. With the proviso that your mundane bonus stays the same as the previous level if you didn't have that character for X number of days, or maybe X number of hours. Sometimes you roll out the gate and die to a drov beetle. It would be silly to get +10 in two days.
Oh, I'm hoping that Brokkr's idea is based around total mundane hours played (by account), not just character creation. Heh. That would be silly.
Quote from: Brokkr on July 23, 2021, 10:13:54 PM
All I am really saying that if this is a problem, there are probably targeted ways to go about it. Rather than open up full mages (which really does come across as a suggestion with ulterior motives) and cross fingers.
Neat idea! I'm a bit sad about full mages not being looked at as I'm one of the people with ulterior motives there. I.E.- I think it'd be a more viable role for the amount of time I have to play, which I have currently set at zero and without actual game changes I don't see that changing either.