So, in a few threads recently I've seen people admit, suggest they see it often, or attempt to justify behavior that's focused entirely around skilling their characters up.
One common idea is that mages are 'devoted' to their element, so they should spam cast with no problem. And people then note that the Byn, or other military clans, have training schedules that make them fight on a regular basis.
Mansa suggests making it harder to improve/branch magics. This seems to be a fine point to discuss. Physical classes have their combat skills rise *very* slowly. In no way shape or form can they even be 1/10th as fast as a magick class in the rapidity of their growth. So . . . two questions/requests come to mind.
1) Would/should staff crack down on people with behavior that's focused on skilling up and metagaming? The grinding mentality *does* need to be stamped out. Its about role play, not about winning, and I've experienced people trying to cheat the code many times in my play. I don't like it. (I'm all over this. Drop the hammer please.)
2) Should magick skills be tweaked to take much longer to improve? If hammering down on the bad behavior can't be done, can this symptom be treated? If so, what does it achieve? (I don't like this, simply because mundane guilds can/do act in the grinding mentality too)
I don't think staff should ever step in and do something, as long as the code allows it to happen.
The reasoning behind this is that:
A) Staff can't watch everybody all the time and
B) Some people will slip through the cracks.
That really only leaves option 2, which is a code change. Code changes are nice because they are impartial and they effect everybody the exact same.
Instead of going on this crusade, why not just file player complaints when you see it?
Quote from: janeshephard on March 12, 2010, 05:57:27 PM
Instead of going on this crusade, why not just file player complaints when you see it?
Did you even read the first part of this thread?
Quote from: MeTekillot on March 12, 2010, 05:58:19 PM
Quote from: janeshephard on March 12, 2010, 05:57:27 PM
Instead of going on this crusade, why not just file player complaints when you see it?
Did you even read the first part of this thread?
Yep, and the other three threads that spawned this topic. Really, there's no need to be rude this way.
The OP is entirely wrong about the mechanics of skill improvement, with respect to magickers versus mundanes.
You can't say anything more about it without getting into too much mechanics-related detail.
There is no problem.
QuoteIn no way shape or form can they even be 1/10th as fast as a magick class in the rapidity of their growth.
This is so Very Very VERY wrong, so wrong it makes the entire premise of the thread wrong.
And I really wish somebody would explain to me how skilling up is not roleplay?
Charles Barkely was NOT a talented basketball player, he had to train for 4-10 hours a day, every day of his childhood and beyond to make it. Tiger woods was brought up with golf clubs in his ass and the williams sisters the same in tennis. The desire to be great is something people have. Muk would not be the sun king if he did not skill up, the same for any of the other in game leaders.
Most people do not want to play PCs content with the lot they have drawn in life. And in order to become Great in something, one must devote massive ammounts of time to it. This is indeed roleplay.
I have experienced one systemic problem in game which does lead to skill-grinding and which I do think needs correction, for magickers. And that is the boredom that is often to be found, especially in the gemmed role. Once you have checked every temple in the Elementalists' Quarter for other gemmed (and found no one), visited all the taverns (and been ignored, or blatantly sexually hit on by mundanes), tried to find your bosses' minds (and gotten little to no help, if you're even fortunate enough to have bosses), tried to find your clanmates (if you're lucky to have any, in the one clan you're allowed to join), cased the bazaar for new stuff to buy, smoked your spice and drunk your drink, etc...then all that's left to do is to sit in your temple and cast. There is just a lot of built-in boredom, and not enough positive interaction potential, in the role of a magicker, so magickers often resort to casting simply in order to have something to do.
LoD has spoken elsewhere about how things could be different and positive or constructive interaction could be encouraged by the right system. As it stands now, I do not expect this problem to be fixed in the current version of ARM, so the system will continue to encourage spam-casting by magickers.
Skill-grinding for mundanes is a somewhat different beast, and is often curtailed nicely by clan rules.
Quote from: X-D on March 12, 2010, 06:09:32 PM
QuoteIn no way shape or form can they even be 1/10th as fast as a magick class in the rapidity of their growth.
This is so Very Very VERY wrong, so wrong it makes the entire premise of the thread wrong.
X-D is correct. In fact, I think it's set up so that trying too hard to advance at spellcasting is actually counterproductive.
Quote from: Salt Merchant on March 12, 2010, 06:17:38 PM
Quote from: X-D on March 12, 2010, 06:09:32 PM
QuoteIn no way shape or form can they even be 1/10th as fast as a magick class in the rapidity of their growth.
This is so Very Very VERY wrong, so wrong it makes the entire premise of the thread wrong.
X-D is correct. In fact, I think it's set up so that trying too hard to advance at spellcasting is actually counterproductive.
Heh, yeah. No matter how much someone practices there is still the limitation of the character's wisdom score to determine how often they advance in a skill. Magickers are no different except that compared to physical classes, they tend to end up with much higher wisdom allowing them to learn at a more rapid rate. If you created a combat-based pc with wisdom prioritized, they would likely suck out of the box but would progress very rapidly compared to those that focused on strength, agility, or endurance.
I dont see whats so bad about training frequently. On any of my characters that are combat oriented that have joined a combat oriented clan I have been put into life threatening situations in the first 2 weeks of play, definently not enough time to get my skills up. I am also getting tired of the "awesome RPer" hypocrits that sit in the tavern for 4 days straight and then tell me my character is doing something "unrealistic" when their job is to be a soldier.
Training frequently =/= training constantly.
It is perfectly reasonable to practice during acceptable times, but going beyond that or going for a long time without break is considered poor form.
For example, if you're training/spam-casting for the entire day... why isn't your PC taking a break from it when they need to?
It makes much more sense to follow a clan schedule or otherwise restrict training reasonably.
Quote from: help faq 9FAQ 9 (Newbie)
How do I learn skills?
----------------------
In almost every instance, skills and spells are learned by practice. If
your character has some basic knowledge of a skill or spell (i.e., if it
appears in your 'skills' list), then it will improve by doing it over and
over again. When you fail in an attempt to use a skill or spell, there is a
chance it will improve.
Note that while repetition can improve skill, doing so to the exclusion
of other activities in the game is considered very poor role-playing, and
is looked on very negatively by the immortals (staff members). The aim of
the game is not just to accrue skills and skill points, although such will
normally be part of a character's life. As long as practice is done
realistically, no one will mind too much.
It is when characters spar for several game days continuously, without a
break, or when characters cast spells again and again for several days,
that one must ask if such would be the case, realistically speaking.
Obviously, we are playing in a fictional game, but even so, would it be
realistic for someone to spar for days, without stopping to eat, sleep,
talk to friends, and so on? If in doubt, ask yourself if what you are about
to get your character to do is realistic.
There are two exceptions to the practice rule. First, language skills
are learned only by listening to better speakers. It takes a very long time
to finally get the hang of a language (i.e., to have it appear in your
'skills' list), but after that the learning curve goes up very fast.
Second, many spells and skills can be taught. You must already have some
basic knowledge for an expert to teach you. Experts are simply other
characters who are accomplished at the spell or skill you wish to learn. If
they agree to teach you, your ability can jump dramatically, with
instruction over time. When learning from another character, or teaching
another character, remember to role-play the lesson.
See also:
skills, teach
Emphasis mine, and I think it spells out expectations very clearly.
Getting drunk every day till you cant stand will eventually make you retarded, but no one RPs that. There are many other examples that no 1 RPs. But trying to get to a point where your character wont die to a gortok is sooooooooo unacceptable. Whatever.
Actually I have another point to add to this discussion. This is another aspect of this game that makes it completely anti-newbie. All the veterans know what can kill them, how strong they have to be, what skills are good to get up, stuff along those lines which are completely OOC. So they can use their OOC knowledge to supplement lack of skills. A newbie walks into a room and sees a kylori which looks like a harpi and from every other game they have ever played harpies completely suck. So they try to kill it and end up dying. I do agree that training all day long is poor form, but the "elite rpers" twink out on none skill training aspects and then talk down to people who train frequently. Its stupid.
This thread is extremely depressing, because I know that nothing will be getting changed. The same people will continue to min-max the best they can and recycle flimsy IC excuses, and will continue to get away with it due to the benefit of a doubt this game requires.
It's depressing to see that everyone wants to rush to being the best dude around, and that people just don't seem to realize the joy that can come from failing, or the opportunities that can arise from being weak.
It's depressing that people are putting so much worry and effort into how to grind out their characters skills and justify it, rather than come to the realization that if they don't throw away their characters, they'll become badass on a long enough timeline.
It's depressing that people want to rely on their character's coded skills to do everything for them, rather than interact with the playerbase and use intrigue, plotting, planning, and favors to get things done.
I'm speechless on some of these responses and attitudes in this thread and the others that have popped up over the last few days.
Quote from: jcarter on March 12, 2010, 08:09:21 PM
This thread is extremely depressing, because I know that nothing will be getting changed. The same people will continue to min-max the best they can and recycle flimsy IC excuses, and will continue to get away with it due to the benefit of a doubt this game requires.
It's depressing to see that everyone wants to rush to being the best dude around, and that people just don't seem to realize the joy that can come from failing, or the opportunities that can arise from being weak.
It's depressing that people are putting so much worry and effort into how to grind out their characters skills and justify it, rather than come to the realization that if they don't throw away their characters, they'll become badass on a long enough timeline.
It's depressing that people want to rely on their character's coded skills to do everything for them, rather than interact with the playerbase and use intrigue, plotting, planning, and favors to get things done.
I'm speechless on some of these responses and attitudes in this thread and the others that have popped up over the last few days.
best way to live a long time A: never leave the city or b: get your skills up. thats the point of this debate. No one is saying they cant gain RP from failing, they are just saying that you have your point of view and it is that we are all twinks that just want to max out and pwn your character. You talk about all the plots and intrigues and stuff that we should get in but guess what my newbie bynner cant get into stuff like that cause he is not important. Then 2 weeks later when I find something cool out he gets killed by a gortok. So I make a new char and repeat the process and die once again. You have your point of view and refuse to even CONSIDER other peoples points of view, so practice what you preach brother.
Quote from: jcarter on March 12, 2010, 08:09:21 PM
This thread is extremely depressing, because I know that nothing will be getting changed. The same people will continue to min-max the best they can and recycle flimsy IC excuses, and will continue to get away with it due to the benefit of a doubt this game requires.
It's depressing to see that everyone wants to rush to being the best dude around, and that people just don't seem to realize the joy that can come from failing, or the opportunities that can arise from being weak.
It's depressing that people are putting so much worry and effort into how to grind out their characters skills and justify it, rather than come to the realization that if they don't throw away their characters, they'll become badass on a long enough timeline.
It's depressing that people want to rely on their character's coded skills to do everything for them, rather than interact with the playerbase and use intrigue, plotting, planning, and favors to get things done.
I'm speechless on some of these responses and attitudes in this thread and the others that have popped up over the last few days.
Dude, you don't have to "grind" to become badass quickly. If you have decent wisdom, all you need is maybe one or two failures an IC day to actually improve. The idea that this takes some sort of game-breaking myopic nose-to-the-grindstone mentality is absurd.
QuoteDude, you don't have to "grind" to become badass quickly. If you have decent wisdom, all you need is maybe one or two failures an IC day to actually improve. The idea that this takes some sort of game-breaking myopic nose-to-the-grindstone mentality is absurd.
QFT
And to add, same for mundanes.
Even if it's impossible to advance unnaturally quickly (and I agree that it is) I think jcarter's post was directed at those who think it is still possible. Those people act on their thoughts the way you might expect, and detract from the overall setting of the game, and I think that could be considered depressing.
Quote from: X-D on March 12, 2010, 08:27:56 PM
QuoteDude, you don't have to "grind" to become badass quickly. If you have decent wisdom, all you need is maybe one or two failures an IC day to actually improve. The idea that this takes some sort of game-breaking myopic nose-to-the-grindstone mentality is absurd.
QFT
And to add, same for mundanes.
Hate to say it, but my own expierience is otherwise.
I played a long lived hidden mage that practiced her skill almost every play session but only for a short period. She would cast all six of her starting spells and then get up and leave since she had a prominent social role.
It took fifteen days to branch and died soon afterwards.
Quote from: Jingo on March 12, 2010, 09:07:00 PM
Quote from: X-D on March 12, 2010, 08:27:56 PM
QuoteDude, you don't have to "grind" to become badass quickly. If you have decent wisdom, all you need is maybe one or two failures an IC day to actually improve. The idea that this takes some sort of game-breaking myopic nose-to-the-grindstone mentality is absurd.
QFT
And to add, same for mundanes.
Hate to say it, but my own expierience is otherwise.
I played a long lived hidden mage that practiced her skill almost every play session but only for a short period. She would cast all six of her starting spells and then get up and leave since she had a prominent social role.
It took fifteen days to branch and died soon afterwards.
The key is FAILURE.
Everyone knows you have to -fail-.
Also, not all failures are created equal, when it comes to spells. So yeah, call that a "learning experience" and try something different next time.
Quote from: Jingo on March 12, 2010, 09:07:00 PM
Hate to say it, but my own expierience is otherwise.
I played a long lived hidden mage that practiced her skill almost every play session but only for a short period. She would cast all six of her starting spells and then get up and leave since she had a prominent social role.
It took fifteen days to branch and died soon afterwards.
My own experiences have been similar to this. It's not easy-mode by any means.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 12, 2010, 08:20:43 PM
Dude, you don't have to "grind" to become badass quickly. If you have decent wisdom, all you need is maybe one or two failures an IC day to actually improve. The idea that this takes some sort of game-breaking myopic nose-to-the-grindstone mentality is absurd.
Quote from: Cutthroat on March 12, 2010, 08:33:30 PM
Even if it's impossible to advance unnaturally quickly (and I agree that it is) I think jcarter's post was directed at those who think it is still possible. Those people act on their thoughts the way you might expect, and detract from the overall setting of the game, and I think that could be considered depressing.
The point of the post was that people seem to be putting way too much concern into their skills than should be for a game that's supposed to be roleplaying first, code second.
Quote from: My original postThe same people will continue to min-max the best they can and recycle flimsy IC excuses, and will continue to get away with it due to the benefit of a doubt this game requires.
I have no doubt that people can find IC justification to practice their skills down to within the exact millisecond that is optimal to get it raised again. Or that they can find an IC reason to practice hide, climb, basketweaving, scan, slashing, piercing, chopping, and bludgeoning weapons within five minutes of each other.
I don't think the problem is as big as you're making it to be.
Off topic but:
Quote from: jcarter on March 12, 2010, 10:06:18 PM
The point of the post was that people seem to be putting way too much concern into their skills than should be for a game that's supposed to be roleplaying first, code second.
We're a RPI which means you have to roleplay. That doesn't mean that some people won't enjoy the coded aspects of the game moreso that the roleplaying, or that roleplaying is supposed to come "first" before code.
The truth is it's usually a mix of battling with the frustration of the coded grind, and the pleasure of the roleplay, and depth to your character that your coded abilities add. That's what makes the game for me. And yes, often times I'll focus more on coded play, so that when it comes time for my character to shine, he's not just a bag of hot air.
You say playing the inept, the weak, and the unpowerful can be fun. While I don't necisarilly disagree, everyone starts out underpowered. As soon as you start the game you are as inept as you can possibly be. And the truth of it is, I'm sick of being inept after 50+ characters, and am sick of role playing that ineptitude for each and every one.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 12, 2010, 10:18:40 PM
I'm sick of being inept after 50+ characters, and am sick of role playing that ineptitude for each and every one.
This does get old.
I find it very disheartening when people start talking about what is possible with magick, and hinting at how it is possible to do x or y. There are a lot of nuances to it. It is impossible to tell who knows what nuance. You, with hundreds of hours behind a list of magickers, may not know all of them. So lets not hint at those nuances, by explaining how quickly we can do x or y, or that someone else misunderstands because of z.
Coded power can't be looked at in isolation. Isolation being a key difference in power between mundane and magicker, along with the routinely paraded litany of others.
Quote from: Twilight on March 12, 2010, 11:30:31 PM
I find it very disheartening when people start talking about what is possible with magick, and hinting at how it is possible to do x or y. There are a lot of nuances to it. It is impossible to tell who knows what nuance. You, with hundreds of hours behind a list of magickers, may not know all of them. So lets not hint at those nuances, by explaining how quickly we can do x or y, or that someone else misunderstands because of z.
Coded power can't be looked at in isolation. Isolation being a key difference in power between mundane and magicker, along with the routinely paraded litany of others.
What I am curious about is how everyone is able to tell which magicker, rogue or not, is really skill min and maxing. Are they in a position to observe this first hand in the game
now, or are they holding on to old memories and what they saw as "twinking?"
If they
are observing it in game, why take the complaint to the GDB and not file a complaint as is asked we do in these situations?
I think the major issue is that some folks just haven't had enough time and experience to figure out how the skill-improvement system works, despite the fact that it's ridiculously simple.
in my opinion.
First spells should be branched around day 5. Next should be day 10. Next should be day 20. Next should be day 30.
Same with skills.
You shouldn't be able to branch your skills/spells with less than 5 days played.
Gonna be honest, I didn't read much further than the OP, just wanted to chime in and say: Staff ARE watching ... and staff DO address players who are spam training. They have many different tools they use to monitor this game-wide and you will be noticed if you are sitting around not emoting/thinking/feeling at all and just typing in syntax. So I really don't think this is much of an issue in actuality.
Quote from: musashi on March 13, 2010, 01:14:22 AM
Gonna be honest, I didn't read much further than the OP, just wanted to chime in and say: Staff ARE watching ... and staff DO address players who are spam training. They have many different tools they use to monitor this game-wide and you will be noticed if you are sitting around not emoting/thinking/feeling at all and just typing in syntax. So I really don't think this is much of an issue in actuality.
I agree with this the Staff are very good about taking note of players who skill grind. Personally I don't see an issue here. Speaking from personal experience I would rather role play then work on branching any day of the week. Normally the only time I go out an train my skills are when I don't have anyone else to interact with. In fact I played one character for over a year IRL and never branched once with her. As for mages they are going to branch faster in general because they have a high wisdom. However they suffer in other ways by not having a whole lot in the way of combat based skills. People with the Karma to play these classes should be trust worthy enough to roleplay while training and from what I have seen most magicker players are -very- good about doing just that.
As a player who usually plays chars who actually leave the city walls on a regular basis, I'd like to put my two sids in.
I don't want my char to die.
I find that I'll act in a grind-like manner for the early stages of my char. Once I have achieved a level of survivability, I have already gotten bored as hell with the 'grinding', and won't bother with it any more.
And by survivability, I mean survivability; not badassness. If I can survive a low level encounter, without bleeding out, and can use secondary skills with at least a little consistency, I consider that survivable. Grinding is fucking boring, and I want to get past it quickly.
Now, if someone was to grind through their whole career, I just don't know... What's the point? Now you've got all the skilz, but never got to play for that whole time? That sounds pretty boring.
"Skill grinding" and roleplay aren't mutually exclusive. Bynners spar on a daily basis, but they also roleplay while doing so. My experience is that staff doesn't mind you following a rigorous training schedule, as long as its roleplayed realistically. Make your character's motivations clear, relate their actions to their motivation clearly, and don't push it too far (the docs say sparring/spam casting for many days at a time. Which is like 3+ hours RL time). Besides, practice-heavy characters aren't necessarily the most efficient at twinking their skills, as has been mentioned already. If my character is obsessed with practicing X, they might practice X far longer and harder than is codedly useful. For example, a dwarf with low wisdom whose focus is to become the perfect chef might not realize that chaining himself to a stove, cooking for 5 hours a day is not a terribly effective training method, but he'll do it anyway.
Musashi: Using syntax and coded commands is roleplaying just like emotes, thinks and feels are. They're nice, but the only time I would say they are necessary is when your character is doing something that an outside observer might not understand. Generally if my character is doing something weird, I'll use a lot of emotes, thinks and feels to justify their actions for the first few times. I'll include that weird thing in an email to the staff, and eventually when it becomes business as usual with an established motive, I won't feel pressured to use the same thinks and feels over and over again.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 13, 2010, 09:37:12 PM
Musashi: Using syntax and coded commands is roleplaying just like emotes, thinks and feels are. They're nice, but the only time I would say they are necessary is when your character is doing something that an outside observer might not understand. Generally if my character is doing something weird, I'll use a lot of emotes, thinks and feels to justify their actions for the first few times. I'll include that weird thing in an email to the staff, and eventually when it becomes business as usual with an established motive, I won't feel pressured to use the same thinks and feels over and over again.
That's nice. And I agree with you. I'm just telling you that if you show up on staff radar as say ... having used the cast command 300 times in the past few RL hours but the emote/think/feel commands 3 times ... you will get an email from staff. You may very well be able to explain yourself and have no problems. But you will be flagged for it.
The thing I'm saying is simply this: staff don't have to catch someone "red handed" to catch them. They have lots of ways to monitor the player base's training activities and they are doing so. So I really don't think the OP's concern is actually much of a problem. I think people who spam train are usually quickly caught doing so and encouraged to change their tune accordingly.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 13, 2010, 09:37:12 PM
"Skill grinding" and roleplay aren't mutually exclusive.
It's possible that some people in this thread are using the term
skill grinding to mean an unrealistic focus on coded progression through excessive or deliberate attempts to raise one's skills, especially when paired with an anemic history of interaction with the rest of the game world.
Working on skills and roleplay aren't mutually exclusive, that's true. However, skill grinding, as defined above, is usually devoid of any elements that would indicate the person is really playing the character vs. making obvious and deliberate attempts to simply raise skills. An example of the former would be an elementalist that spent the morning channeling his/her element, casting, studying what they've accomplished, and then spending the afternoon/evening either seeking RP or interaction, or doing non-skill-oriented RP. And example of the latter would be someone sitting in a temple doing rinse and repeat cast/rest/stand/cast/rest/stand for IC days.
No one is saying you cannot practice your skills, because that's part of the game. What they are saying is that people who place an obvious focus on skill progression over character progression (which is more of a combination of skill and non-skill use gameplay) can cause negative ripples in the player pond.
-LoD
Quote from: LoD on March 14, 2010, 12:19:05 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on March 13, 2010, 09:37:12 PM
"Skill grinding" and roleplay aren't mutually exclusive.
It's possible that some people in this thread are using the term skill grinding to mean an unrealistic focus on coded progression through excessive or deliberate attempts to raise one's skills, especially when paired with an anemic history of interaction with the rest of the game world.
Working on skills and roleplay aren't mutually exclusive, that's true. However, skill grinding, as defined above, is usually devoid of any elements that would indicate the person is really playing the character vs. making obvious and deliberate attempts to simply raise skills. An example of the former would be an elementalist that spent the morning channeling his/her element, casting, studying what they've accomplished, and then spending the afternoon/evening either seeking RP or interaction, or doing non-skill-oriented RP. And example of the latter would be someone sitting in a temple doing rinse and repeat cast/rest/stand/cast/rest/stand for IC days.
No one is saying you cannot practice your skills, because that's part of the game. What they are saying is that people who place an obvious focus on skill progression over character progression (which is more of a combination of skill and non-skill use gameplay) can cause negative ripples in the player pond.
-LoD
I doubt many people do this, and if they do, as noted above they probably get called on it quickly. I was responding in general to those who expressed the sentiment that there's something wrong with characters advancing their skills quickly. For example, Mansa's suggestion on time restrictions in terms of time played to branch. Not only are some skills very easy to branch (and rightly so) to the point where that would be silly, I don't think there's anything wrong with a character who is hard working and dedicated quickly (relatively) gaining power. There is already plenty of coded and uncoded discouragement when it comes to extreme "skill grinding."
I had a warrior PC once who took like 40d to branch his weapon skill due to having low wisdom. By the end of it, I was doing some REALLY weird things to get those last few ticks to branching, but all of it was IC to not outright murder the people sparring with me. I still feel that 40d was -forever-, but I heard of a PC doing it in 15d which made me outright rage.
One PC achieved some cool things in the game, another just became another name. ;)
Quote from: Riev on March 14, 2010, 01:50:25 PM
I had a warrior PC once who took like 40d to branch his weapon skill due to having low wisdom. By the end of it, I was doing some REALLY weird things to get those last few ticks to branching, but all of it was IC to not outright murder the people sparring with me. I still feel that 40d was -forever-, but I heard of a PC doing it in 15d which made me outright rage.
One PC achieved some cool things in the game, another just became another name. ;)
"Days Played" may be an insufficient metric to judge how fast someone branches something.
If, as at least one staffer has hinted, the "skill timer" counts down while you are offline as well as when you are online, it is theoretically possible to get a skill from base to max in less than 2 or 3 hours played, if all you do is log in, practice the skill until you fail, then immediately log out, and only log in until the next RL day or a few RL hours, or whatever the minimum time for skill timer expiration is.
So, if you are someone who plays several hours every RL day, your "days played" counter might tick up very high, because you spend a lot of time doing things that aren't related to skill-gain. On the other hand, there may be people who only have 1 hour a night to spend playing the game, and they make sure that every night they at least get some training in. This type of player (assuming the skill timer counts down when you are offline) will have a disproportionately low "days played" time compared to the player who has three or four hours a day to spend playing. Over the long run, though, the RL time it takes would ideally be about the same. That is, after 3 or 4 months, both characters would be roughly equal, despite one character having 24 "days played" and the other only having 8.
However, the player who plays more often will probably have many more IC contacts/friends/etc., which in the end are vastly more important than skills, anyway.
Well, what I meant was more that the 15d branch was done though extraordinary means, involving some heavy OOC tactics, and played basically as often as I did. It was just to show that he did it in 15d, and made no real progress other than personal coded progress.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 14, 2010, 02:41:55 PM
However, the player who plays more often will probably have many more IC contacts/friends/etc., which in the end are vastly more important than skills, anyway.
This. A thousand times, this. So many warrior PCs that think they are the Cat's Meow because they win in spars, but all it takes is one important contact...
Quote from: mansa on March 13, 2010, 01:02:25 AM
in my opinion.
First spells should be branched around day 5. Next should be day 10. Next should be day 20. Next should be day 30.
Same with skills.
You shouldn't be able to branch your skills/spells with less than 5 days played.
I agree. But unfortunately I branched a spell at 17 HOURS without even trying to branch it. My character was simply trying to earn enough coins to eat and outfit himself. Now, I might be crazy, but 17 hours is way too fast.
Not everyone plays their magickers 2,3,5 days before casting their spells. If you use your magicks with any regular frequency and fail at a regular frequency, which is often necessary for survival, branching magick classes can be entirely too fast. I'd rather see magickers branch at a rate more consistant with the psionicist class.
Quote from: Sephiroto on March 15, 2010, 06:45:58 AM
Quote from: mansa on March 13, 2010, 01:02:25 AM
in my opinion.
First spells should be branched around day 5. Next should be day 10. Next should be day 20. Next should be day 30.
Same with skills.
You shouldn't be able to branch your skills/spells with less than 5 days played.
I agree. But unfortunately I branched a spell at 17 HOURS without even trying to branch it. My character was simply trying to earn enough coins to eat and outfit himself. Now, I might be crazy, but 17 hours is way too fast.
Not everyone plays their magickers 2,3,5 days before casting their spells. If you use your magicks with any regular frequency and fail at a regular frequency, which is often necessary for survival, branching magick classes can be entirely too fast. I'd rather see magickers branch at a rate more consistant with the psionicist class.
You guys are making assumptions about magickers, spells, and branching that just aren't true.
There is a very specific reason you branch from tier 1 spells so quickly, and it has nothing to do with spamming or learning faster.
And, I might add, it was changed to be this way for the specific reason that magickers
would branch faster off their tier 1 spells.
Please do not assume you know more or less about the code than any of the other players. The only thing I am willing assume in this case is that you have never been a staff member, and thus should be in no position of authority to explain how the code does or does not work. 17 hours is too fast, plain and simple. I don't need to see the code to know that's too quick for comfort, but it is my opinion and may not be yours.
There are things we can do to avoid quick branches and skill ups in magicker classes, such as using skills as often or spending more time roleplaying with other PC's. I really think that's why the classes are currently balanced the way they are, but everyone can't be expected to follow that same flow. While this is a roleplaying game, not everyone plays this game to tell a fantastic story or sit around the taverns swigging ale all day. There are a great number of us (many of my mages included) who use magicks frequently from the start for survival and/or do not have the IC social outlets to spend time on.
Another thing to keep in mind all together is the fact that the more proficient we become with the way things work, the easier it is to make things happen, so to speak. For that very reason I think it might be necessary to consider balancing upper-teir classes for player experience. A newb mage player with a sorc is bound to have great difficulty branching and surviving due to sheer ignorance of mechanics, but someone with 5 or 10 years of experience might find that they can survive very easily or even indefinitely, barring PvP death. With the sort of destruction that magick classes can do even at low levels, I would expect it to be IMPOSSIBLE to grow very powerful as quickly as it can be done.
A lot of ideas about training skills are weird in the mud. They say don't practice backstab on a dummy but really you would do that. Someone might paint some vital areas on it and you practice hitting it correctly. But for an assassin you should practice by trying it out on someone first? That seems pretty stupid. Normally when someone is a professional, they practice whatever they are a professional at. If you are a soldier and never train you are not going to be a good soldier and that's fine. If you are trying to be a member of an elite group or a professional whatever, not training would be just as bad as over training.
Quote from: jcarter on March 12, 2010, 08:09:21 PM
This thread is extremely depressing, because I know that nothing will be getting changed. The same people will continue to min-max the best they can and recycle flimsy IC excuses, and will continue to get away with it due to the benefit of a doubt this game requires.
It's depressing to see that everyone wants to rush to being the best dude around, and that people just don't seem to realize the joy that can come from failing, or the opportunities that can arise from being weak.
It's depressing that people are putting so much worry and effort into how to grind out their characters skills and justify it, rather than come to the realization that if they don't throw away their characters, they'll become badass on a long enough timeline.
It's depressing that people want to rely on their character's coded skills to do everything for them, rather than interact with the playerbase and use intrigue, plotting, planning, and favors to get things done.
I'm speechless on some of these responses and attitudes in this thread and the others that have popped up over the last few days.
I believe the cause of this is directly related to the EOTWP and knowing the game is going to end soon. No body wants to be a weak character that dies or has no depth before the "last battle happens" is the feeling I get
Quote from: Sephiroto on March 15, 2010, 09:22:21 AM
Please do not assume you know more or less about the code than any of the other players. The only thing I am willing assume in this case is that you have never been a staff member, and thus should be in no position of authority to explain how the code does or does not work. 17 hours is too fast, plain and simple. I don't need to see the code to know that's too quick for comfort, but it is my opinion and may not be yours.
There are things we can do to avoid quick branches and skill ups in magicker classes, such as using skills as often or spending more time roleplaying with other PC's. I really think that's why the classes are currently balanced the way they are, but everyone can't be expected to follow that same flow. While this is a roleplaying game, not everyone plays this game to tell a fantastic story or sit around the taverns swigging ale all day. There are a great number of us (many of my mages included) who use magicks frequently from the start for survival and/or do not have the IC social outlets to spend time on.
Another thing to keep in mind all together is the fact that the more proficient we become with the way things work, the easier it is to make things happen, so to speak. For that very reason I think it might be necessary to consider balancing upper-teir classes for player experience. A newb mage player with a sorc is bound to have great difficulty branching and surviving due to sheer ignorance of mechanics, but someone with 5 or 10 years of experience might find that they can survive very easily or even indefinitely, barring PvP death. With the sort of destruction that magick classes can do even at low levels, I would expect it to be IMPOSSIBLE to grow very powerful as quickly as it can be done.
I don't have to assume you know less about the code when I have evidence: you and other players are making statements and arguments that they wouldn't make if you all knew what I know. No, I haven't been a staffer, but I have been playing for a very long time, and I pay very close attention to code-related things...not because I am a twink or trying to get the power-up and win the game, but because my brain just kind of gravitates toward picking problems like this apart.
If the Staff wanted to make magickers branch from their first-tier spells more slowly, I suspect it would be a very simple change to something, because this very simple change has already happened, albeit in the opposite direction, as I said before. The fact that they deliberately made it easier probably reflects prevailing staff opinion on the matter.
Staff opinion aside, I think it makes perfect sense, given that a) magickers are almost universally feared and hunted and b) they are utterly defenseless without spells and c) most (not all, I know...so please don't try to use this for ammunition) first-tier spells are pretty useless when it comes to PvP. The game is not packed with rogue mages going berserk, nor is it packed with ancient gemmed mages pwning all. Right now it seems like there is a very decent balance, so I'm actually a little confused as to why this topic is generating so much angst.
The proposed solutions don't even make sense, given the nature of the problem as it's been presented. If you want mages to interact more and solo spamcast less, the last thing you want to do is make their "newbie" period longer...because what will they do? They'll sit around and do nothing but spam-cast EVEN MORE to get past it. It's like pouring gasoline on a fire.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 15, 2010, 10:05:59 AM
I don't have to assume you know less about the code when I have evidence: you and other players are making statements and arguments that they wouldn't make if you all knew what I know. No, I haven't been a staffer, but I have been playing for a very long time, and I pay very close attention to code-related things...not because I am a twink or trying to get the power-up and win the game, but because my brain just kind of gravitates toward picking problems like this apart.
I made a generally vague statement about the code because a) speaking in such code-specific terms has gotten me in trouble before, b) discussing how the code actually works is poor GDB conduct, c) making such statements about how one really knows what's going on with the code only reinforces third party perception that one does, in fact, engage in regular twinkish behavior, and d) might make others think you've had access to staff-only information through some OOC means. I'm not saying this to be accusatory, but rather as a helpful statement to help you avoid any undue, negative attention.
Derailment aside, I think magicker classes can be played responsibly by most players. You have very valid points about how the game isn't overrun with rampant, berserk rogue mages. Most of my discomfort comes from my OOC perception of how people are playing mages, such that I feel the average branching time is between 1 day 12 hours and 3 days (or faster) for every race except half-giant, and then a bit longer for upper-level spells. It isn't fair for those who are playing their mages at a reasonable rate to be forced to branch their spells even slower, but I really believe that number of players adhering to stringent guidelines is in the minority. I am no less guilty. I've tried to branch spells before for various reasons. Some were justifiable, others were not. In the end, if the staff decides to tune down skill rate of magick spells for all or some classes/players/karma levels, I won't be complaining. I nearly branched out a sorcerer in 20 or 25 days. I could do with it taking twice as long.
Okay, so maybe I should replace "know" with "strongly suspect, based on extensive experience and observation."
I didn't realize I was submitting this for peer review.
Anyway: like I said earlier, "days played" may be an insufficient metric, if a certain assumption holds.
Furthermore, I've never felt a "need to branch" that was based on the performance of other PCs. Usually this desire is innate...e.g. "I need to branch detect trolls so I don't get trolled." Usually the only "skillgain races" I've been in are PvP spy vs. spy backstab competitions in the 'rinth.
I'm just not getting this thread. Let's see if I can't work through it here.
Is this about a problem specifically with people who game the system, to get ahead of others? If so, slowing things down universally won't do anything about that. You'll have people who constantly practice still getting better than people who don't, only you're spreading out the timeline.
There seems to be the assumption that twinks are a serious problem. Staff hasn't said anything to that affect. I don't see any real evidence here except for passing anecdotes about how one PC surpassed or branched faster than another PC. The only "twinkish" behavior I've really seen in my time playing is sometimes overly eager use of the teach command, and that's helping other PCs advance quickly, not your own PC.
And there's the assumption that branching is universally supposed to be difficult and take a long time. I really don't think this is the case. Magickers and mundane guilds alike have the capacity to branch quickly without a whole lot of effort, depending on the skill.
The fact that you can easily branch when you aren't even trying is proof that the system works, and is not dominated by twinks. You don't need to be a twink, you just need to use your skills on a regular basis. This is how the system is supposed to work. There's nothing wrong with branching quickly if you are using your skills on a regular basis as long as your character has a reason to be doing so. A ranger living off the land, making use of his skills to survive, will rightfully branch quickly. So will an isolated magicker who is living off of their abilities.
At the same time, there's nothing wrong with not branching, either. Presumably your character has been doing other things with their time that are worthwhile to them as a character. If you think it's unfair that a character who doesn't use their abilities frequently can't keep up with one who does...tough. A character with low wisdom also has a hard time keeping up; it's a basic reality of the game. As with Synthesis' experience, I've never experienced this OOC pressure to branch, or keep up with others.
The fact of the matter is that all pcs are not created equal. This bugs some people. The fact of the matter is that some players will focus more on different parts of the game than others. This bugs some people. The fact of the matter is that the staff watch us play. Especially those playing karma roles. The fact of the matter is that alot of players cannot stand someone going about the game differently or having a different preference as to what they enjoy doing when playing the game. This is the true problem that needs to be solved and it can only be solved by each of us focusing on our own play, letting the staff deal with any problems, and having the attitude of: "To each his/her own."
If I want to change something in my life and it causes me to learn something. I go at it full speed and learn it. So if I was a mage in real life and I had a set of spells that would in turn make my life easier, you better believe I be grinding them. Same as when I had test coming up in school, work and so on. Now role play is the biggest part of the game but remember when you pick a class from the start you are building from that class. So make life as it, if a mage then live some and the grind some. Because that WOULD be a way of life. I have always seen how people down grinding on mages, hunters, warriors and even to foraging, but think if you get paid to dig then you pretty much dig all day in your job with small breaks. It really should be in the players mindset and them going off of who the character is. And not just a IMM or other pc that happens to see you foraging or grinding, but has missed the fact you left a tavern and had a blast with people there and they had a blast with you.
As long as someone is playing a believable character, why should I care whether their ultimate goal is to branch winemaking, or magic missile, or whatever? It makes sense for a militant character to spar, or a tailor to practice making clothes, or someone who relies on their magick for survival to make sure their spells work right. I don't see a lot of really obvious skill grinding going on. And I've played at games where people grind skills.
I feel that putting in a lot of coded limitations, etc, is really counter productive in the end. The people who are going to try to min/max the system are going to, anyway, regardless of what coded barriers you put in place--and based on the number of people who hate the thought of people min/maxing the system, I think there's a higher perception that they're out there than there is a percentage of people who really do. But that's beside the point. They're going to keep doing it, and it's just going to generate frustration on the part of people who DON'T.
Why did I leave SoI? Because of the crafting timer. Straight up. Nothing says 'we don't trust our players to play responsibly' like coded measures put into place to keep a small minority from acting like idiots, but which in turn keep the vast majority from enjoying their play time.
I for one, find the skill system a hindrance to different types of Role-Playing.
I have posted this elsewhere in the past, in length - Not everyone enjoys playing a novice. It does not fit their real-life personality, and it shows in the playing of their characters. Some people excel at playing an expert, a master, or someone in charge. Others thrive at the novice, and understand very well the nuances of playing someone learning (I don't know any players outside the GDB, so I don't have enough information to really make sociological assumptions) - but I'd wager that they are attached to real-life factors.
So, to some players the learning curve is a hindrance that negatively impacts their playing. They are just basically idling by waiting for the chance where they know how to play. And other players its the opposite. They stall out at higher skill-levels and tend to be alot less interesting then their "learning" character.
Alot of games have implemented systems to avoid the "grind" for players that have proven in the past that they are capable and will not abuse "skilled" characters. And this is not necessarily a bad thing. Almost like sponsored roles, but on a more stream-lined system.
Quote from: Jenred on March 15, 2010, 02:40:46 PM
I have posted this elsewhere in the past, in length - Not everyone enjoys playing a novice. It does not fit their real-life personality, and it shows in the playing of their characters. Some people excel at playing an expert, a master, or someone in charge. Others thrive at the novice, and understand very well the nuances of playing someone learning (I don't know any players outside the GDB, so I don't have enough information to really make sociological assumptions) - but I'd wager that they are attached to real-life factors.
While I agree a karma setup where you can start off with someone more experienced would be nice, they do have sponsored roles and such.
Batmud has a system (and it's not an RPI btw) which allows you to reincarnate. You lose something like 10-25% of experience, depending on how its done, and then spend it on a new race/background/guilds setup. Something like this for Arma would be nice. That excellent warrior you lost can come back in another form, let's say another guild entirely, with their experience minus a percent transferred over equally into new skills.
Let's say you can reincarnate only twice in a row. So you have a long lived warrior, he dies, you roll a merchant who doesn't suck at merchanting. He dies. Then you reroll an assassin and now you have something like 30% added to all your skills from the get go. After that you're back to novice and can't reincarnate.
Upside of this: player retention increases. After that long lived excellent warrior the player isn't completely demoralized. They can jump back in and not feel like a novice again (because some players don't like playing novices). You no longer have the pressure to grind your first 5 days of play away hoping to become a competent Zalanthian.
Downside of this: everyone rolls merchant, powergames the crafting so they can reroll warrior after they suicide and start with decent skills. My own opinion is that the player base won't do this. It's too much work even for the rabid power gamer. Instead reincarnating will be a pleasant thing that makes perm death have less of an impact.
Don't include this option for non mundane guilds. Magickers should start off weak and quietly practice somewhere until they can hold their own. I agree with this. I just don't agree with making it harder for them to practice. You'll just see more grinding from them.
Quote from: jhunter on March 15, 2010, 12:27:45 PMThis is the true problem that needs to be solved and it can only be solved by each of us focusing on our own play, letting the staff deal with any problems, and having the attitude of: "To each his/her own."
qfft
I know it's late, but I think staff know when people are RPing a -lot- and then maybe skillgrinding on their off time.
I'm guilty of skillgrinding, but if somebody shows up while I'm skillgrinding, believe me, the emotes and tells and stuff -will- start coming out, unless they blow right by me. So it's really not a matter of "do you solo-RP" to me, since I'm horrible at it, so much as "Do you avoid ignoring people when they come upon you doing your thing?"
Quote from: Saellyn on March 16, 2010, 12:18:26 AM
I know it's late, but I think staff know when people are RPing a -lot- and then maybe skillgrinding on their off time.
I'm guilty of skillgrinding, but if somebody shows up while I'm skillgrinding, believe me, the emotes and tells and stuff -will- start coming out, unless they blow right by me. So it's really not a matter of "do you solo-RP" to me, since I'm horrible at it, so much as "Do you avoid ignoring people when they come upon you doing your thing?"
Add onto that: Do you keep your training to realistic levels? Even if something is your job, like foraging ... sure you migh wake up in the morning and do it until dusk but ... all through the night? Without pause? For days on end? Until hunger and thrist force you to take a break? I would think that would drivemost people insane. Take a break at night and go have a drink in a tavern or something. As long as you're mixing it up a little there isn't really a problem as far as I'd be concened, and staff have echoed those sentiments before.
I have to agree with eveything Synthesis is saying.
Magickers were set up to branch their first tier spells super fast. I verified this once years ago by emailing Halaster
because I too thought it was fast. In the email he told me its set up that way so dont sweat it.
If you know how the code/fails work and pair that with his wisdom I do not care what you are playing you can get
damn near any class skills up fast. Is that twinking? I do not think so.
Often times with magickers, Ive noticed that everytime for several tries in a row I get a fail (and thats not spam casting, thts gettig a fail and quitting the said spell and doing it again at a later time) Can you blame the player for that?
Nope, just good luck I guess.
I do know this twinking/magicker/new ideas for karma threads is starting to get old.
I took a little over a year break from Arm and the boards and even then there
was a thread detailing with this popping up every other month, more often
than not, by the same damn people over and over.
Topics like these that drive the GDB into the ground is why about three years ago I quit even payin
attentioin to the GDB.
Editted to add: And when these same people whom bring up these worn out topics again
alway have the same people who agree with them and usually they dont even had anything
new to the threads that they have not already said a million times in all these
other threads.. Seriously, these topics are washed
up, give them a break.
Quote from: Mudder on March 16, 2010, 09:15:46 AM
Topics like these that drive the GDB into the ground is why about three years ago I quit even payin
attentioin to the GDB.
Don't be offended, I'm not specifically targeting you, Mudder. But what's up with all the bellyaching lately about "threads" or "topics" that "ruin the GDB and my life and make me hate Arm because we've already discussed them before..."
I realize it's just another phase, like this "I don usually agree with gimf" bullshit, but it's getting kind of tiring. Stop being so dramatic. If you don't like a thread, ignore it. If you do like a thread reply to it. For everything in between? We don't care how emotional you get when threads like this start popping up. So yeah, we know that you think we're ruining the game, but there actually are hot topics that -
do- need to be discussed ad nauseum, and do have multiple sides that needs to be expressed. And guess what. Just because 10 ninnies discussed it two months ago, doesn't mean that there isn't anything relative to discuss right now, or anyone new who wants a shot.
P.S. People like to argue.
Uh...aren't you actually doing that very thing with the above post? *scratches his head*
I'm trying to tell all the complainers to stop complaining about other players when they're trying to help the game. So yeah, kinda. I just think that complaining about people/thread who have a genuine interest in the bettering of the game is counterproductive.
Every thread discussing how we can make the game better is a good thing.
I never once said it ruined the game, and I do not care if you were singling me out or not, I'm
not going to get butt hurt. I said the GDB, not the game.
I only mentioned that because there is hardly anything different said in these threads.
Anywho, I have said all I needed to on this 'skill grinding'.
Quote from: Twilight on March 12, 2010, 11:30:31 PM
I find it very disheartening when people start talking about what is possible with magick, and hinting at how it is possible to do x or y. There are a lot of nuances to it. It is impossible to tell who knows what nuance. You, with hundreds of hours behind a list of magickers, may not know all of them. So lets not hint at those nuances, by explaining how quickly we can do x or y, or that someone else misunderstands because of z.
Coded power can't be looked at in isolation. Isolation being a key difference in power between mundane and magicker, along with the routinely paraded litany of others.
With magic it's possible to MAKE YOUR BRAINZ ESPLODEY!!!!!!!!!!!OMG!!!
It's also possible to get muffins if you beg really hard.
Uh, now, back to - NO I don't sit out in the wastes or run around day and night doing the same thing over and over, I haul my butt back to the Gaj so I don't get eaten by an army of Halflings that are just LOOKING to pick my bones clean xD
And usually I end up staying in the Gaj for a few IG days chatting it up with people and driving them absolutely crazy with my impersonation of the Zalanthean Jimmy Carter.
DISCLAIMER noteverythinginthispostistruehtereisnozalantheanjimmycarterthankyou ..... Or is there?
First off I should just state that I think the only way to approach any situation in Arm is to immediately take the actions of another player in the kindest possible way. Assume that they're doing an awesome job rather than assuming that you're the only one who is and they all suck.
I think the possibility of grinding comes along as part of the game. I think that it's easy to get a little too wrapped up in the "purity" of the RP and lose sight of the fact that there's still a game here, and the best friggin' game ever I might add. The RP together with the game and its mechanics makes this awesome.
So, I would actually observe that I think the skills go pretty slowly. I've had characters who lived a year or better and, because of the nature of the character, they never branched a single skill. They were rich, powerful, wielded a measure of influence, and if someone attacked them they would have died like dogs immediately. If you're an ungemmed mage those skills could take a very, very long time to develop.
I think -that's- the real source of consternation for a lot of people, that they're playing these characters for a long friggin' time and then some guy with his newish character who has done virtually nothing but train could (and maybe did) kick their head in. To ME that goes to the richness, and even to some extent the accuracy, of life in Zlanthas. There's someone better out there. You can never be so powerful that you shouldn't worry. Some duties take you away from training, giving room for others to get better than you, etc.
So, in summary, I've never considered training to be bad RP, but I've only just created my first character who does it. Zalanthas is a dangerous world and people are therefore additionally motivated to train. Maybe in the end it's a question of whether you play Arm for the RP alone or play it for the whole game experience.
Did I forget something or wasn't it written that spam skilling up is not an effective method to raise skills?
Spam-training is NOT an effective way to raise skills. However, clever use of training can indeed result in a character becoming better-skilled than another in short order, though.
Remember, next time you decide to spam-train out in the wilds...
There's always a bigger Gith.
More or less spamming forage appeared to increase my skill at at least some kind of rate. But I have no idea how it'd compare to 'clever' training
Well, "clever" training means you do your time, then you wait a little while. Then you do some more time, then you wait a while, and in between you take about two or three IG days to hang out in hotspots and roleplay with people so the Imms don't spank you for being a twinking spam-skilling lamer who's going to amass ten times the wealth of Tektolnes and pay it all to a Templar for getting dust on that shiny new glove of his.
I'm thinking you should edit that^^ a bit...
And, sitting in hot spots and chatting up other PC's for several IG days != Roleplay. Well at least, not necessarily. I'm sure some roles might call for that on occasion.
aye, my main difficulty with an accelerated timeframe: wait, we've been having this conversation for two days?
Other than that, I like Zalanthan time.
So let people spam skills.. So what? We all know there are coded safeties to prevent skill grinding. If it bothers you, you can report to the staff. If it harms you, you can report to the staff.
I just applied for a new character - not a mage this time, an unfamiliar guild altogether - and currently I'm reading and rereading the description of the guild to figure out which skills I'm going to receive, which of them will of logical and/or necessary for my character and how I will improve them to reasonable levels. Because with my all warriors/mages I don't want to be a 10-day-old character, meet people, get involved in plots then die to a scrab/gortok etc. With my all merchants I would hate to limit my plot options because of money. With all my sneakies I would hate to feel unsafe to wander into less lawful areas with the character who's a part of a smuggling circle, information-scavenger for two groups also a funky hairdresser.
If this was a MUSH, a storyteller would have a look at your char info and die roll and tell you: "Yeah, he throws a punch, you catch the fist and break his bones within your own hand." but in a MUSH there would possibly 5 players and three storytellers :). Here we require code support hence; skills. So people will train. Some will overdo it for stupidity. Some will believe 'pattern a' is a better way to gain skills so they'll do it that way. Some will not bother with training. Some will believe ignoring skills is the one true path to RP. Me? Unless I play a noble, I'll grind my skills at regular intervals dutifully. Even as a noble I may make a hobby of being a decent cook.
[Your babbling improved]
Whoa! See? For that reason this post was needlessly long.
I think Erdlu sums up most of my feelings on the subject, but I would also like to say that people who do nothing but fight in the mornings, then rest in a barracks with someone all night and not speak or emote a thing, only to fight and spar in the morning again really make me angry.
Though, that may be because I used to want to do that until I found the glory of Relationships and affecting other players of the game positively.
Quote from: Riev on March 23, 2010, 09:52:29 PM
I think Erdlu sums up most of my feelings on the subject, but I would also like to say that people who do nothing but fight in the mornings, then rest in a barracks with someone all night and not speak or emote a thing, only to fight and spar in the morning again really make me angry.
Though, that may be because I used to want to do that until I found the glory of Relationships and affecting other players of the game positively.
Rather than getting angry about it, I just go to interact with other people as my pc would and don't waste my time on them. They're the ones missing out, I figure I'll just laugh at them OOCly and continue playing my character. What does bother me is when I don't have enough time to devote to playing the game and I have to make antisocial characters in order to get a little taste of Arm when I have a bit of time but I know that -I'm- missing out on the best part of the game. :(
Quote from: Spider on March 23, 2010, 09:08:44 AM
I'm thinking you should edit that^^ a bit...
And, sitting in hot spots and chatting up other PC's for several IG days != Roleplay. Well at least, not necessarily. I'm sure some roles might call for that on occasion.
I'm saying go to a hotspot. Like the Gaj. And hang out and RP. Time passes so fast in Zalanthas I have no trouble passing one or two, sometimes three days off RPing wth a guy.
And if you find you hit it off with that dude? Bring him somewhere and do something. Kill that floating Mek that stole your muffin, -EAT- said muffin, who knows? But sitting in the hot spots chatting PC's up is -definitely- RP, man. It's just balancing that out with "Blargh ,tired!"
Just a quick comment about the idea of carrying experience over or not starting as a novice: If you've got 100 magicker characters behind you, and I have one, even if we start at exactly the same time, in exactly the same place with exactly the same skills and stats, who do you think is levelling quicker? That's carried over experience in my books.
I think it really depends on your personal preferences. Yes, this game is about roleplay but is also a game. People play to have fun and some believe that, lacking proficient in a majority of skills, inhibits them from doing so.
To me, it's all role dependent. My skills are used when they're needed. I don't go out of my way to kill that raptor -all- the way out there or to decide to shoot at everything I see with my bow, just because I can (and need the exp points!)
Quote from: Gunnerblaster on April 05, 2010, 12:39:05 PM
I think it really depends on your personal preferences. Yes, this game is about roleplay but is also a game. People play to have fun and some believe that, lacking proficient in a majority of skills, inhibits them from doing so.
To me, it's all role dependent. My skills are used when they're needed. I don't go out of my way to kill that raptor -all- the way out there or to decide to shoot at everything I see with my bow, just because I can (and need the exp points!)
^^ I hope you're not going after that raptor straight out of the box, man. If you did, though, make sure you get my muffins back.
Why do people start threads like this anyway? No offense to the person who started it, but I don't feel like a thread of this nature which seems to be a complaint should be put up on here like this. To me it appears that someone is trying to shame or otherwise manipulate the play of others. I have been in roleplay with people who stifle other's rp because they adopted a certain 'I can rp better than you' attitude and proceeded to make things miserable. In fact, this only lessened my enjoyment.
Just putting in my $0.02 worth
I once submitted an app for a reclusive-type tribal clan that got accepted. It had quite a few cool things to it, in my opinion. First, I doused the app in a cultural background that was readily apparent on interaction--and was fully documented in the original biography. In easier to understand terms: I made my character's culture visible with a single LOOK or EMOTE.
Now the challenge of the role was that it was "secluded". Not that it was cut off from the world--not at all. In fact the opposite, it was near a utopia of activity. The barriers were language/reclusive tribal attitude. How was I to have fun in a role like this? When all I wanted to do was show off all my cool emotes and represent the tribe's culture to enrich the game world--I was limited to "snapshots". I could emote once or twice in front of people, back away, and vanish--as per the documents laid out by the staff. Furthering this starvation for interaction was the "problem" that I played a great deal more than my tribe counterparts, and in turn became attention-crazed... sorta.
So how exactly do you make an impact on the world without saying anything understandable (language barrier), or interacting all too often? Make it memorable. How do you make something memorable? Be exceptional. How do you be exceptional? This is the difficult part to admit... because I know it's going to dog me long after I've said it. I chose to skill grind.
Why does skill grinding fall into my list of needs to make the role fun? First off, I'm kind of like Synthesis in which I like "problem solving". I figure out problems and attack them with my intelligence and creativity. For the past few years I've played, one of my hobbies has been attacking the skill tree. To make things more interesting for myself, I gave my character a roleplaying handicap that can be easily figured out if you think about it. After I did that, as per my dude's background and roleplayed behavior, I began to experiment.
What I wanted to do is to see if a "one-armed" warrior could indeed be awesome. I ended up attracting the attention of the staff and "wrongfully" punished for a few things I didn't do. (The wrong was righted and apologies made, so no real foul imo.)
What the staff saw was me running around trying to become awesome with my dude. I frequently did not emote, and never sent in updates to the staff about what I was doing. (On the other side of the table, the staff never did ask, either.) That is, I didn't emote until I was in the presence of someone else or on the rare occasion when I was alone. I was playing the game to have fun, and that I did.
Didn't break any rules, or anything.
I believe the following:
If you believe what you are doing is skill-grinding, it's wrong because this mud is about role-playing.
If the staff believes what you are doing is skill-grinding, it's very definitely wrong because it's their game.
If neither of these are true, then you're doing alright.
Quote from: Is Friday
What the staff saw was me running around trying to become awesome with my dude. I frequently did not emote, and never sent in updates to the staff about what I was doing. (On the other side of the table, the staff never did ask, either.) That is, I didn't emote until I was in the presence of someone else or on the rare occasion when I was alone. I was playing the game to have fun, and that I did.
Didn't break any rules, or anything.
Gesturing casually to one side, his leather armor creaking in response, Jhoram added, "And that's why you don't tickle a tembo." Everyone in the great hall laughed, their voices bouncing amidst the rich wooden walls before resolving into a low hum of dull table conversation. Jhoram exchanged pleasantries with a few of the local nobles, his features vibrant and alert. This was his element. Eventually, the noble lords dispersed to leave only Lord Walay of the House Harrowmont standing at his side.
Leaning in, Lord Walay quietly offered, "Quite a feast, Lord Jhoram. You've done well tonight, and won the approval of your peers." Lord Walay's reddened gaze slowly swept over the feasting crowd, an approving smile plastered across his face. Lifting a pair of bushy eyebrows, he turned back to Jhoram, "What will you do now?" Jhoram surveyed the raucous chamber with a gentle sigh, "I think I'll head out for the evening, Walay. I have a few things I'd like to have completed before morning."
Clapping a friendly hand to Jhoram's shoulder, his other strangling the handle of a rugged clay tankard brimming with frothy red ale, Lord Walay stated, "You're a testament to your father -- always the dutiful son." Beginning to turn away, Walay suddenly paused and glanced back toward Jhoram, "Do be careful this evening, lad. While these men toast you tonight, there are more than a few that would rather see themselves sitting at the head of the table, eh?" Walay held Jhoram's eyes for a few moments, then slowly moved toward the swaying form of a passing serving wench as he returned to the festivities.
Jhoram inhaled a deep breath, leaning against the sturdy pillar as he considered Walay's warning. Perhaps there were men that would see him harmed, that would want him dead.
Maybe the old man is right. Jhoram thought, rubbing a gloved hand along his bristling beard as he watched the men and women before him feasting and drinking. "All the more reason to leave on my own terms, and of my own free will then." Jhoram quietly commented to himself, making his way toward the southern doorway. Passing through the arched doorway, Jhoram stepped out in the night air.
Jhoram walked east. Jhoram walked north. Jhoram walked north. Jhoram walked north. Jhoram began to move quietly. Jhoram stealthily moved west. Jhoram stealthily moved west. Jhoram stealthily moved west. Jhoram tries to blend in with his surroundings. Johram stealthily moved north. Jhoram watches north. Jhoram stealthily moved north. Jhoram stealthily moved north. Jhoram draws a bone dagger. Jhoram stealthily moved north. Jhoram stealthily moved north. Jhoram stealthily moved north. Johram tries to blend in with his surroundings. A ragged man arrives from the south. A gurgle of blood sounds as Jhoram drives a bone dagger into the back of a ragged man. A ragged man crumples to the ground. Jhoram gets a ragged robe from the corpse of a ragged man. Jhoram stealthily moved north.
----------
I would probably be disappointed if I were reading this book, and wonder why the author had suddenly chosen to switch styles and provide so little commentary on what was happening. Why he'd switched straight to facts, and omitted all of the style and poetry that was making this an enjoyable story to read. I imagine Staff members feel the same way about players who shine and develop a wonderful story when in the company of other characters, but suddenly drop everything when they are completely alone.
Emoting and thinking (in company and alone) may not equal role-playing, but it sure makes for a more interesting story.
-LoD
LoD, while your post is poetic, and creative, and really neat, it doesn't exactly encourage me to make my solo-RP more exciting. Rather, it encourages me to make my interactions -less- exciting.
I'm just grateful after reading your post, that I have never attempted to live up to such high expectations. I am less likely to disappoint.
Quote from: Lizzie on April 07, 2010, 10:58:19 AM
LoD, while your post is poetic, and creative, and really neat, it doesn't exactly encourage me to make my solo-RP more exciting. Rather, it encourages me to make my interactions -less- exciting.
I'm just grateful after reading your post, that I have never attempted to live up to such high expectations. I am less likely to disappoint.
I didn't intend for the example to represent a standard to which people should hold themselves. It
is poetic and probably more so than most players, myself included, would be able to maintain. What I do feel is true, however, is that the story, as a whole, benefits from a consistent approach to playing your character. On the one hand, simply executing hard-coded commands does tell us
what your character is doing, but it remains largely silent on the
how and the
why -- questions that can be answered through thinks, feels, and emotes. And the answers to these questions can be incredibly useful to your fellow players (visible to you or otherwise), the staff members (visible or otherwise), and even to yourself -- because it can sometimes take you down roads you weren't even expecting to travel in the same way that you never know what you might come up with if you just start painting.
I don't think my goal is to make you strive for "exciting" solo-RP, as much as to strive for consistently communicating what, why, and how you are performing your actions instead of simply the what.
-LoD
LoD's post caused within me an LoL, but I'd like to address something from my personal (not staff-wide by any means) perspective.
There's no burden on any player to entertain us, though many of you do. Play to have fun, play as you will. The main things that concern me when I'm eating brainz are that 1) the rules of the MUD are being followed, and 2) players are reacting to the world realistically IG.
Let's look back at LoD's story. The build up to the actions Jhoram took was great. But let's just say that I don't actually have my Spoon of Brainz Eating +1 ready at that time, and only catch the guy when he's sneaking around. If we assume also that Jhoram isn't one of my clannies who should hopefully be sending semi-regular, detailed reports of his motivations, I'm just seeing some dude sneaking and murdering. There's absolutely no context. It's easy to misread things in that case. It's hard to tell if they're conscious of the game world or just treating it mechanically. No thoughts or feels or anything when he ends that poor sap's life? Is he an unfeeling sociopath or what? Almost anything's valid, but give me -something-.
So in short, if you just can't stand to get elaborate with your emotes when you're stuck alone, codedly interacting with the world (and believe me, I'm not the High-Mighty King of Solo-RP myself), then an occasional email to your imms describing your character's actions and motivations goes a long ways. And let me tell you, even the odd think or feel does wonders in granting us perspective on what's going on down there.
[Also, LoD beat me to the punch here: "... consistently communicating what, why, and how you are performing your actions instead of simply the what" is a good summation.]
Quote from: LoD on April 07, 2010, 10:44:26 AM
I would probably be disappointed if I were reading this book, and wonder why the author had suddenly chosen to switch styles and provide so little commentary on what was happening. Why he'd switched straight to facts, and omitted all of the style and poetry that was making this an enjoyable story to read. I imagine Staff members feel the same way about players who shine and develop a wonderful story when in the company of other characters, but suddenly drop everything when they are completely alone.
Emoting and thinking (in company and alone) may not equal role-playing, but it sure makes for a more interesting story.
-LoD
There's no way I can say this without sounding like a complete dick but man, but nowhere in the docs does it say we play this game game for the entertainment of the staff and invisible people. *It looks like Geryon said something similar as I was typing this post*
I often do things similar as Is Friday and have never been complained about from the staff, with the exception of my infrequent or completely absent updates. I'm not saying I resort only to commands and spam when alone, but my level of RP generally decreases greatly. Why waste time emoting this and that, while alone, when I the player can simply imagine it in my head. With the exception of an IG echo the result is the same. I'm alone, right? I'm not playing to entertain invisibles, right? Then why emote every little thing? Anyway, I play this game for my own fun. If invisible/hidden players and staff want entertainment, and this is just a suggestion, maybe you should throw a few hints of your presence behind the scenes. Mature roleplayers should be able to up the level of detail and world interaction without taking advantage of the fact that they know someone is there.
His boots scuffing through the blood-spattered straw of the training hall, Awesomeosecles strode toward the sergeant. Their eyes locked for a single moment, expressing their mutual loathing yet grudging respect.
"I don't like yer kind," rasped the Sergeant, leaning his face close so that the two were surrounded in an invisible yet powerful cloud of of spiced-tregil-with-roasted-roots-breath. "But that don't mean I ain't going to beat you into being the best drov-damned half-elf mercenary this side of the Shield Wall."
"I know," said Awesomeosecles, teeth clenched as he carefully wiped the Sergeant's spittle from his face.
"I know you know! And now I'm going to make you know it again!" bawled the Sergeant.
"I knew you'd say that." Awesomeosecles' words were like the soft patter of halfing urine raining down from amongst the branches of a baobab tree - quiet, yet distinctly annoying.
MONTAGE <"You've got the Touch" by Stan Bush>: Awesomeosecles getting his butt kicked by the sergeant. Awesomeosecles' eyes filling with tears, but then suddenly his face being overcome with a look of determination. Awesomeosecles lifting weights ... small ones. Awesomeosecles running along a balance beam and falling while other soldiers laugh. Awesomeosecles standing on the ramparts in the evening, practicing tai-chi but suddenly turning away in frustration. Awesomeosecles sparring with another mercenary, this time managing to get in a few good strikes. The two mercenaries give each other approving nods. Awesomeosecles lifting weights again ... this time larger ones. Awesomeosecles running along a balance beam but this time only wobbling. Several soldiers give him a high-five as he leaps nimbly down at the end of the beam. Awesomeosecles standing on the rampart, doing tai-chi, but this time he's in the zone. People in the street below look up and notice him and the cute, comical relief kid looks up with wide, admiring eyes. Awesomeosecles sparring several other mercenaries at once and managing to handle them all at once! <music fades as Awesomeosecles strides into a sparring ring where the Sergeant stands waiting for him. This time, we all know he's going to kick the Sergeant's ass>.
- - - - - - -
I usually agree with LoD 100%, but the problem with the book or movie metaphor is that books and movies skip much of the stuff that we play out. A book will not describe a character walking from point A to point B, unless something significant happens or unless the author needs to establish the mood of a place to a reader. Having established that mood, it probably won't be repeated again too many times. The exception is for significant character development in which the way the character is walking tells a story about their reaction to being dumped by Sally or realizing that they are, indeed, the Chosen One. However, most movies and books cut to the action. We, on the other hand, have to move through 30 rooms of screen scroll. Over. And over. And over. And over. I'll throw out some thinks, feels, and an emote or two. But dammit. Sometimes I just want to get to the Gaj. I could really flesh out each and every time I walked from point A to point B, but then, by the time I got there, it would probably be time to leave or log out.
As for training, the vast majority of books and movies handle this with a montage or with a few selected scenes. So, you'll get some scenes in which the main character is humiliated, in order to make you root for said main character and despise their enemies. You'll get a comic relief scene or a scene in which they build relationships with their fellow trainees. Then you'll get a scene in which the main character demonstrates that they've improved. Every single time they train is not included in a book or movie. It usually referred to by having the main character enter a room and the author lets us know that the character is sore from training or covered in bruises, etc. We know that training is going on, but honestly, we don't want to see or read it.
There's a reason why, for instance, the Harry Potter books actually have very few scenes that have much to do with learning the mundane ins-and-outs of magic. Scenes of triumph, humiliation, and comic relief are portrayed along with scenes in which a classroom event is used as a vehicle to introduce plot elements that have nothing to do with learning/training. The rest is handled by throw-away lines that let the reader know that Harry, Ron, and Hermione are studying/working. But we don't get the gory details of every single assignment, test, and practice session.
Why not?
Because it's boring.
We as players must navigate, I feel, somewhere between the two extremes. On the one hand, we want to tell a story and make everything as interesting as possible. On the other hand, if our characters are characters that have skills, we have to play out the minutiae of what is normally handled in narratives with a montage. I'm going to make sure that I never break character and that my actions are always IC and believable. I don't think it's possible, however, to make every single trip from the Byn compound to the Gaj or from the gates to the militia barracks a beautiful, stirring narrative. I don't think it's possible to make Byn training session #1,584,192 as exciting and memorable as the political intrigue at the feast my character will attend that evening.
TLDR version:
I don't know how we can be held to the standards of top-notch authors when those authors would absolutely skip about 98% of what we do in the game.
Oh, to add now that I've read the responses that appeared while I was writing mine ... I obviously agree that murdering someone should be accompanied by emotes, thinks, and feels that communicate emotions, reaction, etc. My post was more meant within the context of "skill grinding."
Here's a video of what a skill-obsessed twink may look like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu00RiPjaa4
Also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIi0vFyqWAc
Quote from: Sephiroto on April 07, 2010, 11:37:45 AM
There's no way I can say this without sounding like a complete dick but man, but nowhere in the docs does it say we play this game game for the entertainment of the staff and invisible people. *It looks like Geryon said something similar as I was typing this post*
I often do things similar as Is Friday and have never been complained about from the staff, with the exception of my infrequent or completely absent updates. I'm not saying I resort only to commands and spam when alone, but my level of RP generally decreases greatly. Why waste time emoting this and that, while alone, when I the player can simply imagine it in my head. With the exception of an IG echo the result is the same. I'm alone, right? I'm not playing to entertain invisibles, right? Then why emote every little thing? Anyway, I play this game for my own fun. If invisible/hidden players and staff want entertainment, and this is just a suggestion, maybe you should throw a few hints of your presence behind the scenes. Mature roleplayers should be able to up the level of detail and world interaction without taking advantage of the fact that they know someone is there.
No problem, Seph. We're just discussing stuff, right? =)
It seems I wasn't as clear about the motivation for these emotes, thinks, and feels in my initial posts. I wouldn't ever want you to emote something for the enjoyment or entertainment of someone else, but to help communicate with other people (mortal and otherwise) so that they can understand your motivations and respond in kind. Whether it be PC's in a game or actors on a stage, there's a collaboration happening. It's a group-oriented environment, even though we can often feel alone.
Keeping everything to yourself, imagining it all in your head, deprives others of understanding your motivations and demeanor, especially when some of that would be obvious to an onlooker. Obvious in your movement, your tone, your choice of words. In RL we talk to ourselves all the time, make facial expressions, think thoughts, and sometimes we get caught/observed by someone we didn't know was watching or was there. That leads to further discussion and interaction, which I think is what can be missed by keeping everything inside.
For example, here's coming across someone keeping things to themselves.
Rajan's Way [EW]
>west
You walk west.
Rajan's Way [EW]
The tall, muscular man is sitting here.
The tall, muscular man looks at you.And here could be how it feels different when they aren't:
Rajan's Way [EW]
>west
You walk west.
Rajan's Way [EW]
The tall, muscular man sits against the wall, sobbing quietly.
Spittle drooling from his lips, the tall, muscular man asks, in sirihish:
"Why did he have to die?"
Drawing a hand across his mouth, the tall, muscular man looks up at you.It's not about entertainment, it's about communication. Communicating (to anyone that may be paying attention) what, how, and why you might be doing can allow others to form a more complete and accurate response to your actions. It's a different mentality, and a different motivation to supply that type of information. I know some people take offense when people bring up think, feel, and emote in a way that claims not using them isn't good RP. I'm not saying it's not good RP -- I'm just saying it's not optimal communication with your fellow players, and both of you may be sacrificing some pretty good scenes if you were to share more about your character instead of keeping it all in your own imagination.
-LoD
But if we can't see anyone to communicate to; that's the situation I think they're referring, when it come to skill grinding. Should we really be OOCly pretending there's someone hidden, watching us all the time?
Of course not. But I don't believe you should be completely placid all the time, either. I like to think of it as the balance comes between your fun and enjoyment, and your honing of your emoting/rp skills. So I'll do about one practice emote every few varying actions, and maybe once every 10 or so forage attempts/room moves.
That makes a lot of sense, LoD. I actually got a chuckle out of what you said because it made me realize that my Armageddon playing style sometimes represents my actual self. I've often been described by women I've dated as "very internal", so what you say really hit the nail on the head. In general I believe the fact that how we play roleplaying games like Armageddon or D&D uncovers a lot about the personality of every player. At any rate, that was a derail from the original post but it has got me thinking about how I can improve my interactivity with the world by becoming more aware of occasional, spammy play styles. In the same light, I hope someone else finds this helpful.
I hate that the more skilled your character becomes the less interesting their ending is likely to be as the number
of coded threats available in game decline.
Skills go up and you more or less get to god-mode on other characters with less playing time until the local magicker
one-shots you, a strong poison gets in your PC's system or you get clubbed while unarmed, idling.
Do you really want to spend that much time grinding?
Welcome to Armageddon.
I'm beginning to find that I enjoy playing a 10 day old PC more than a 100 day old PC as interactions seem to
become much less linear and the available fates to my character are much more colorful.
Regarding the benefits of solo-RP and why I do it - it helps me visualize who my character is and what their particular psychology is.
Quote from: Hot_Dancer on April 18, 2010, 01:12:00 PM
I hate that the more skilled your character becomes the less interesting their ending is likely to be as the number
of coded threats available in game decline.
Skills go up and you more or less get to god-mode on other characters with less playing time until the local magicker
one-shots you, a strong poison gets in your PC's system or you get clubbed while unarmed, idling.
Do you really want to spend that much time grinding?
Welcome to Armageddon.
I'm beginning to find that I enjoy playing a 10 day old PC more than a 100 day old PC as interactions seem to
become much less linear and the available fates to my character are much more colorful.
So don't play a combat guild? I'm pretty sure there are plenty of common things that would utterly pwn even a 100-day merchant.
If you get clubbed while unarmed and idling... stop being unarmed, dummy! You're supposed to be a hardcore warrior. Everybody knows hardcore warriors carry half-giant cleavers as secondaries!
But uh... really, why is anybody complaining about this? The guy that sits around and skill grinds will get ganked by the staff eventually. I just want to be there when it happens. Unless it's like... a thousand Meks being spawned in one area. Then I want to be very far away.
Personally, I try to throw in emotes whenever I'm practicing things, but I don't do it with every single action. Even in the company of others, I wouldn't do so, as it would swiftly become repetitive and tedious for all parties.
I really have no issue with skill grinding. For those who say that guild must come secondary to character, I would point out that some guilds (and race, in one case) are more than mere skillsets, such that they have a direct impact on the character's life. If what you are results in your being hunted on all fronts, you may very well need to improve those skills in order to have a chance. I'm not saying to go hog wild and never, ever interact, but some degree of grinding can be important to survival.
I'd like to reaffirm earlier statements that reports to staff are important. I try to send one in on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, even as an independent, to tell them what I've been up to. That way, even if they should just happen to see me grinding, they will be apprised of the fact that I've been out and doing other things.
Overall, my belief is that there's far too much concern lately regarding what other people are doing. Stop worrying about them. That's staff's job.
Quote from: Akoto on April 21, 2010, 12:50:17 PM
Personally, I try to throw in emotes whenever I'm practicing things, but I don't do it with every single action. Even in the company of others, I wouldn't do so, as it would swiftly become repetitive and tedious for all parties.
I really have no issue with skill grinding. For those who say that guild must come secondary to character, I would point out that some guilds (and race, in one case) are more than mere skillsets, such that they have a direct impact on the character's life. If what you are results in your being hunted on all fronts, you may very well need to improve those skills in order to have a chance. I'm not saying to go hog wild and never, ever interact, but some degree of grinding can be important to survival.
I'd like to reaffirm earlier statements that reports to staff are important. I try to send one in on a weekly or bi-weekly basis, even as an independent, to tell them what I've been up to. That way, even if they should just happen to see me grinding, they will be apprised of the fact that I've been out and doing other things.
Overall, my belief is that there's far too much concern lately regarding what other people are doing. Stop worrying about them. That's staff's job.
This.
I don't particularly log in to practice, or even tend to do so overly much, but if I'm logged in and can't find any interaction, it gives me something to do, other than ponder the same thing for the 503rd time.
I dunno if it's been suggested before, but I was thinking on it the other day.
What does everyone else think about letting subguild skills stack over main guild skills?
Like, a warrior/acrobat's skill in "kick" would start higher because both come with it?
That way, people could sacrifice a more varied skillset for higher starting skills in a few areas.
Just throwing it out there-- might do a bit to ease the "grind" people keep bringing up on the GDB.
THought that's how it worked - highest cap and highest starting level.
Quote from: Xeran Van Houten on April 28, 2010, 06:05:02 PM
THought that's how it worked - highest cap and highest starting level.
I think in almost all cases if the main guild skill overlaps a subguild skill it is usually a higher start + cap. But yea, I think you are right.
Quote from: jmordetsky on April 28, 2010, 06:16:23 PM
Quote from: Xeran Van Houten on April 28, 2010, 06:05:02 PM
THought that's how it worked - highest cap and highest starting level.
I think in almost all cases if the main guild skill overlaps a subguild skill it is usually a higher start + cap. But yea, I think you are right.
Ah, I thought it was just highest cap.
Primary guild has the higher cap almost every time. Subguilds, however, in my experience, have a higher starting level (this may not be true in all cases, but is definitely true in others and I will not give examples).