The PvP documentation puts a shared responsibility on all players to respect the storytelling process. I think if a sponsored role goes off and starts to disrespect that dynamic, they will stick out like a sore thumb even more than usual because there will be a significantly higher share of players following the guidelines.

If the concern is that staff won't intervene even when it is highly obvious that they should, that comes with its own risk. Other players will start to see that following the PvP documentation is no longer necessary because it's not being enforced, and the game will see players leave, which I don't think is an outcome anyone wants.

Viewed from the standpoint of a staff team that can be characterized by their statements and actions as clearly trying to improve the game and pull players back in, I have no doubt that they intend to take the PvP standards seriously.

I think the most important things that players of sponsored roles will need to understand are alternative conflict resolution and conflict escalation. And I think this game has a history of many leader characters that already voluntarily followed those guidelines because they had a natural understanding of what it meant to play a leader PC in a storytelling focused game. To see the behavior of long-feuding nobles and conniving templars codified into the game's documentation is a really big change for this game's culture.

The code abusing lolcows arn't even the worst offenders.

This game has a history giving leader characters to players who will "play the system" but will still make the game fucking miserable to other players.

This is a problem that has yet to be addressed.

Quote from: Master Color on Today at 03:14:45 AM

QuoteThis seems to suggest that you think we have a high proportion of players who simply exist to grief and want to run around causing mayhem or otherwise winning at hurting other PCs. In fact, a lot of this thread does. This honestly is not the case. Most, if not almost all, of our players are here to roleplay, create characters and tell stories.

I feel like I'm being gaslit.

I've been burnt enough times to know that players in this game arn't curious about stories other than their own. They will seek out positions of power in game and they will use them to clique, cheat and grief. And then staff will punch down on the victims when they complain about it.

I don't think you are necessarily. I've seen this from the top down with a larger playerbase even. All it takes is 3 or 4 people that you neither curtail nor speak with to ruin the fun for everyone. Remember, these are people who will run off into the silt sea specifically to get better stats. Probably people who exploited that spice stat character creation bug. I honestly think that making dwarves require karma is gonna do a lot but so would stuff like flagging people to have X or Y guild not be available if they're griefing with it. It would only need to be an extreme minority to fit this as long as their respective playtimes were high enough there'd be someone on most to all hours of the day with it just a handful of people. I'm sure it will result in something greater at this point and they've now made rules about stuff they'll even have something specific to point at for the why. It could feel like a lot more and worse than it really is if that person's current grief puppet is spamming around your area. It only takes 1.

Great, but there will still be a gap in the noble population and it will need to be filled with fresh clay in order fo the noble ecosystem and options to be ideal.

I did have a question though.. Is a karma review mandatory for playing in Season 1? I'm pretty sure I'd be on somewhere between 4 and 6.

QuoteThis seems to suggest that you think we have a high proportion of players who simply exist to grief and want to run around causing mayhem or otherwise winning at hurting other PCs. In fact, a lot of this thread does. This honestly is not the case. Most, if not almost all, of our players are here to roleplay, create characters and tell stories.

I feel like I'm being gaslit.

I've been burnt enough times to know that players in this game arn't curious about stories other than their own. They will seek out positions of power in game and they will use them to clique, cheat and grief. And then staff will punch down on the victims when they complain about it.

Quote from: Dresan on Today at 12:28:17 AMI also fear that wide spread anonymity will result in bias or outright cheating by both players and staff to help learn or identify m-desc hidden players. This type of cheating is pure poison for the game and is best avoided all together. Equally, limiting the gear to certain clans for special purposes defeats the entire purpose of having them at all since clans should have less need for anonymity.

This seems to suggest that you think we have a high proportion of players who simply exist to grief and want to run around causing mayhem or otherwise winning at hurting other PCs. In fact, a lot of this thread does. This honestly is not the case. Most, if not almost all, of our players are here to roleplay, create characters and tell stories. Not all of them are great at stopping to put a bit more thought into their PK attempts or their conflicts though and that's what these guidelines are about. But these are the hardest times to remember to take a pause. We will continue to weed out the genuine griefers, but they are few and far between and things like the 1k requirement for dwarves will help a lot to prevent situations like the great dwarven massacre of I'm not sure when because I wasn't on staff yet. Lots of our players care about their skills, progress and PCs prowess and ability, because it's a game and that's natural, but there isn't really a theme amongst our players of people who actively want to cheat to win, it's just the occassional very few who then stand out in our memories.

 

Quote from: Tuannon on May 22, 2024, 09:59:51 PMAs much as I like seeing newbles, I think a core of dependable nobles is also required. Maybe a couple at least, people the staff know will play a noble properly. With (certain) staff levels being unable to play this pool will diminish but hopefully some new people will come about.

I also think there should be similar slots all the way down the social pecking order.

To be clear, 99% of Staff will not be able to play the game as players or make PCs. The only Staff who will be able to play the game are Web Dev / Coders who do not have access to any story related material/discord channels/information. No Producers, Senior Storytellers, or Storytellers will be allowed to have PCs while they are actively staffing, full stop.

Quote from: Bogre on May 22, 2024, 10:00:34 PMStuff 

I do have some hope that redstorm will be able to support small time troublemakers and villains, but that could just be wishful thinking on my part given the state of places like luirs and the rinth. Since I lack faith, I do feel the need for some ability to provide anonymity to promote non-lethal conflict. However, it should be in a limited and skill oriented way to prevent a ton of problem for the game. In the hands of someone who understands this game, anonymity is potentially more powerful than stealth, spells or assassination techniques.

If this is to be implemented, simplicity works best. You look at a person, the description should read that their m-desc is obscured. Anything more will just lead to cookie cutter looks and features just so people can blend in with a majority of the population when wearing these items. After all, people will continue to use things to their advantage because historically they have a lot to lose.  This is not going to change overnight.

I also fear that wide spread anonymity will result in bias or outright cheating by both players and staff to help learn or identify m-desc hidden players. This type of cheating is pure poison for the game and is best avoided all together. Equally, limiting the gear to certain clans for special purposes defeats the entire purpose of having them at all since clans should have less need for anonymity. 

That said if this goes in, I can't wait to see unconscious nobles lying naked on the ground. Probably not the intended outcome, but utterly hilarious none the less. 

Quote from: Lizzie on May 22, 2024, 08:53:36 PM

Quote from: eska on May 22, 2024, 06:15:28 PMClosed and hooded up ankle-length djellebah. All mdesc is gone.

Which would be fine, IMO. My issue with mdesc-hiding masks is that the description is -replaced- with the mdesc of the mask. So the green-eyed barrel-chested man, wearing the mask, appears to be a purple tregil with floppy ears, complete with a 6-line description of his smooth skin and tail.

There are a lot more ways to facilitate it sensibly than just blanket-hand waving that it wouldn't work.

>look figure

You see a very tall, obese humanoid wearing a faceless obsidian mask.
(Tdesc) Their hair has been bound back and pinned with a length of thin engraved bone, and their blue eyes are hard and purposeful.

Gear: They are wearing <X,Y> - normal
Tattoos: standard

>study figure

You look at the very tall, obese humanoid wearing a faceless obsidian mask. They notice you studying them!
You notice they have watery blue eyes.
You notice they have dark black hair.
You notice they are armed!

>draw sword

>You notice the very tall, obese humanoid wearing a faceless obsidian mask trying to slip into the shadows!
------------------------------------


Yes, this would require player buy in - to adequately set temp descs. Again, this is a game that the latest push (and this very thread) is about collaborating even in conflict. Players that do their best to leave breadcrumbs, not try to game the system, etc, or do foolish things would be appropriately noted by staff - in the same way that they are proposing to monitor magick, karma races, sponsored roles, etc.

And yeah - it would perhaps be a fantastic code project for coded additions to char-gen that add particular descriptors that are hard to conceal, or findable. And you have those be reviewed in approval so the hard blue-eyed, stocky man doesn't give descriptors of having green cat-eyes and a purple tregil tail. Like - we have code to summon magickal stuff of all sorts out of thin air, NPCs that will spar you, entire ecosystems - we trust players with near instakill buttons in spells, big clubs, crim code- a mask that blanks your description is not going to like suddenly have the entire PBase be spree Pkillers and running around emoting farting on nobles, no more so than that already occurs.


My thoughts:
Hood > obscures sdesc like current, M-desc visible to look. Closed cloak obscures some of the equipment, just like current.
Mask > obscures main desc, but eyes / hair / ears easy or moderately easy to notice
Facehelm > obscures main desc, hair / ears hard to notice, eyes moderately hard to notice. (person wearing helm might have downsides of their own perceptive abilities though)
Mask or helm + hood up> Makes hair, ears harder to notice. 

As much as I like seeing newbles, I think a core of dependable nobles is also required. Maybe a couple at least, people the staff know will play a noble properly. With (certain) staff levels being unable to play this pool will diminish but hopefully some new people will come about.

I also think there should be similar slots all the way down the social pecking order.