I feel like merchants should have a single weapon skill. Whatever is used specifically with daggers. Like, they have skills to wield them, but no skill in using a particular sort and historically most merchants carried some variant of short-blade on their persons.
Daggers, dirks, shivs, and stuff like that. The rondel dagger, which is used in game, was even largely something used by merchants later in it's existence and their is art showing it.
I guess it'd mean they'd also be able to use spears and things, which isn't really accurate, but I feel like 100% dependency to survive on other individuals at all times as defence it detrimental in the long run. What if the merchant knows nobody to Way and is stuck somewhere few people go? They could skirt the roads and pray to whoever they pray to that nothing comes for them, but if it does thy have their old dagger.
They have base offense and defense scores already that can be raised. I've seen merchants go about doing it.
They also have access to advanced subguilds that can make them pretty strong actually.
I came into the T'zai Byn with a 15+ day ranger once and fought a Merchant Aggressor who had already made Trooper...they rolled me like a little bitch.
Basically, they can already do this and more.
I played a Byn sergeant a few years ago that got along fine without weapon skills. Considering there are now subguilds/extended subguilds with weapon skills I don't think it's an issue.
I wouldn't mind if merchants got a low cap piercing skill when guilds are glossed over. I mean, pick pockets and burglars get weapon skills, what IC reason do those guilds have for fighting that a merchant doesn't?
Quote from: SuchDragonWow on June 07, 2016, 11:29:34 AM
I wouldn't mind if merchants got a low cap piercing skill when guilds are glossed over. I mean, pick pockets and burglars get weapon skills, what IC reason do those guilds have for fighting that a merchant doesn't?
What IC reason is there that a Ranger can't kick enough to take off even 2 HP?
Sometimes there isn't and shouldn't be an IC reason.
My opinion is that the "problem" with arm is hard caps.
Nothing breaks immersion better than having a year old PC that's capped out in anything.
I honestly think that they should change the way we learn and just lower or raise learning rate versus remove hard blocks.
The RNG is brutal and in crafting skills particular it's not unheard of to have master level X and still fail at stuff over and over. Imagine if you're stuck at journeyman, it blows.
Rangers kicking people has never entered my mind as something iconic, but a terrified merchant clutching a dagger rings just as true to me as a greedy pickpocket with a blood-stained sap.
To clarify, a rondel dagger grew out of the need to penetrate heavy suits of platemail. You'd knock the knight down with heavy weapons and then someone would jump on him and stab him through the eye-slits in his helm or force the rondel into one of the joints at the armpit. The newly discovered body of King Richard III had a post-mortem done and he had a probably-fatal rondel wound to the head after he was unhorsed and surrounded.
As for merchants carrying them, that evolved from the desire of upper class merchants to try and tie themselves to the knightly orders. "Oh, that guy is carrying a rondel. He must be a former knight." And of course what the upper class merchants did, so did the lower class ones.
How they make sense in this setting, I really couldn't tell you.
I think part of what might motivate the suggestion is a confusion I had about weapon skills when I played a gemmed with no weapon skills on the skillsheet, namely: I wasn't sure if I could even use the weapon type at all. But in fact, owing to the hidden offense skill, we all have all the weapon skills at <novice> even if they don't show up on our skill sheet. The skills that show up on your skill sheet are ones that you can progress in. I'm not sure if there's an ideal solution, other than adding a quick line in 'help combat' to that effect.
However, if the OP is asking for merchants to have say 'piercing weapons' show up on their skill sheet (and thus allow merchants to progress in 'piercing weapons' to say journeyman or something) -- I don't think this is a bad idea.
I quickly looked through the sub-guilds and none of the obvious ones (Gladiator, Guard, Outlaw, Thug, Bounty Hunter) offer you a weapons skill. So it looks like you'd have to choose an extended sub-guild (e.g., Aggressor) to get a weapon skill. (I could be wrong.)
Quote from: nauta on June 07, 2016, 02:08:13 PM
I think part of what might motivate the suggestion is a confusion I had about weapon skills when I played a gemmed with no weapon skills on the skillsheet, namely: I wasn't sure if I could even use the weapon type at all. But in fact, owing to the hidden offense skill, we all have all the weapon skills at <novice> even if they don't show up on our skill sheet. The skills that show up on your skill sheet are ones that you can progress in. I'm not sure if there's an ideal solution, other than adding a quick line in 'help combat' to that effect.
I believe this is partly correct. You can use the weapon, but have no skill in it. It is common code knowledge that there are hidden offense/defense values, but having a weapon skill does appear to grant further benefit:
Quote from: Weapon Skills HelpfileWeapon skills represent specialised knowledge in the use of a particular class of weapons. All weapons fall into one of four general categories: bludgeoning, chopping, piercing, and slashing. Stabbing weapons are merely a subset of piercing ones.
If one possesses, for example, the 'chopping weapons' skill, then one's usage of an axe is improved both in ability to land blows and to parry those of others, the degree of improvement depending on one's level of accomplishment in that skill.
Each category of weapon has its own characteristics, which should become evident as your character becomes more familiar with its usage.
Not that it really matters to a merchant. And maybe that's why they don't bother to have a weapon skill in the first place. Their shield block and weapon skill values would be poo to begin with.
Quote from: nauta on June 07, 2016, 02:08:13 PM
I quickly looked through the sub-guilds and none of the obvious ones (Gladiator, Guard, Outlaw, Thug, Bounty Hunter) offer you a weapons skill. So it looks like you'd have to choose an extended sub-guild (e.g., Aggressor) to get a weapon skill. (I could be wrong.)
On the other hand, this is definitely incorrect.
Quote from: Gladiator HelpfileGladiators may become apprentices at fighting with slashing weapons. They are capable of learning kick, bash and disarm to the level of journeyman. Gladiators begin play with a slightly improved ability to withstand pain.
Quote from: SuchDragonWow on June 07, 2016, 02:17:53 PM
[
Not that it really matters to a merchant. And maybe that's why they don't bother to have a weapon skill in the first place. Their shield block and weapon skill values would be poo to begin with.
I have to say, I don't get why merchants just randomly have shield use. It could be better substituted for piercing to me, because as a merchant the thought of lugging around a shield has never actually struck me as very worth-while. A shield is something to protect you whlle you fight, and merchants don't fight that often.
It becomes even more confusing when you consider that the two offence skills offered to merchants are completely useless with a shield. You have to wield two /weapons/ according to dual wield, and two-handed is pretty straight-forward used in holding two-handed weapons.
At least piercing would give those two specific skills use, instead of there being three completely unrelated combat skjills. Even with the background skill, the likelihood of that little fluke of survival is pretty low again like.... Anything that hits back much unless you taint.
Shield, two-hand and dual wield are weapon styles. You can't do any of them at the same time and each of them works in conjunction with a weapon skill.
What I think would be cool is choosing weapon styles at creation. Warriors get all three, Rangers and assassins pick two and the rest can pick one.
Gladiators get slashing weapons up to app.
If you want to play a merchant with combat skill, make 'em a part-time gladiator. You'll be like a baby warrior with no defensive skills, but hey, with decent stats, you could probably take a gith at some point!
Quote from: SuchDragonWow on June 07, 2016, 11:48:30 AM
Rangers kicking people has never entered my mind as something iconic, but a terrified merchant clutching a dagger rings just as true to me as a greedy pickpocket with a blood-stained sap.
Do you mean that because other iconic games/books/themes feature merchants in robes carrying the standard 1d4 dagger that Armageddon should too?
I'm not saying it's a horrible argument, it's really not I guess. I wish Armageddon would pull in A LOT of other standard "iconic" things from other titles I personally enjoy....
But I'm not going to argue realism, or necessity, or anything else for those causes.
What I will argue?
I want it because I personally like the idea of it....and I won't pretend it's for any other reason.
Quote from: BrokenRomance on June 07, 2016, 06:53:22 PM
Quote from: SuchDragonWow on June 07, 2016, 02:17:53 PM
[
Not that it really matters to a merchant. And maybe that's why they don't bother to have a weapon skill in the first place. Their shield block and weapon skill values would be poo to begin with.
I have to say, I don't get why merchants just randomly have shield use. It could be better substituted for piercing to me, because as a merchant the thought of lugging around a shield has never actually struck me as very worth-while. A shield is something to protect you whlle you fight, and merchants don't fight that often.
I'm not sure exactly what the reason was when staff put it in/what they were thinking.
I can tell you that in reality shields weren't used in the way they were used in movies.
Mostly, you just put them on one side of your body and hold them relatively stationary and worry more about movement and the use of your sword-arm.
Shields were "MOSTLY" used in melee combat as little more than a limiting factor in that if you have one side of your body pretty much covered by a stationary barrier, then you don't have to worry about that whole side of your body.
I'm sure there were "Shield Masters" who took that to entirely new levels....but your standard "shield bearer" used it pretty much for this and only this.
So I guess where I'm going with this is.....using a shield for MOST people is just holding a shield and trying to keep it mostly stationary and protecting a single side of your body, which doesn't take a great deal of skill.
There are extended subguilds that cover this.
Quote from: Ath on June 08, 2016, 02:43:14 PM
There are extended subguilds that cover this.
Which ones are accessible to a 0-1 karma account holder?
Quote from: Miradus on June 08, 2016, 03:14:29 PM
Quote from: Ath on June 08, 2016, 02:43:14 PM
There are extended subguilds that cover this.
Which ones are accessible to a 0-1 karma account holder?
All of them if I understand the system correctly.
Your CPG is equal to 3 + your karma level.....I think.
If you karma level is 0, then your CGP is 3.
No extended subguild costs more than 3 CGP.
I could be wrong but I THINK that is how it works.
Quote from: Ath on June 08, 2016, 02:43:14 PM
There are extended subguilds that cover this.
But what if I want my subguild to feature 2-3 skills I feel would be helpful to me, instead of 1? And the ones that interest me don't include a direct combat skill?
Quote from: BrokenRomance on June 08, 2016, 04:34:07 PM
Quote from: Ath on June 08, 2016, 02:43:14 PM
There are extended subguilds that cover this.
But what if I want my subguild to feature 2-3 skills I feel would be helpful to me, instead of 1? And the ones that interest me don't include a direct combat skill?
Special Application
I would be absolutely fine if you don't give my merchants any combat skills because with just the base offense/defense I can handle tregil and shik just fine. I don't expect to take on a carru.
I DO wish I had flee as a skill though.
QuoteI DO wish I had flee as a skill though.
The helpfiles for subguilds no longer list flee.
I very much hope they either gave everyone flee or they just became unlisted skills, because the insinuation that some people are incapable of knowing how to run away from something else without getting smacked every time is a pretty stupid position to hold.
More than anything else, the absence of flee is what confines merchant play to city life.
Because unexpected carru is unexpected.
Yes please flee.
I think at least unarmed would be great, even if it was low capped. Maybe even just give flee so they have SOME chance to not be instakilled.
There's no unarmed skill. Just raw offense and defense which every guild can max out.
Protector/merchant is good fam. Just do that.
There -should- be an unarmed skill.
Please see: An example of someone with Master Unarmed
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1Cb2d0ZUVs
Heres the thing about unarmed.
You'd have to figure out how much damage it will do to fully armored opponents.
You'll be fighting people who have what you have in unarmed in, say, spear.
You'll be fighting people in armor.
I don't know about an unarmed skill, but I'd like to see subdue broken down into wrestling components.
So instead of just one skill check, magic grapple subdue you have disarm them, make multiple grapples to lock up their limbs, then take them down. Some sort of submission hold would be required.
I'd be fine with an unarmed skill, as long as it is next to useless against anyone wearing significant armor. The last thing i'd like to see are a bunch of kung fu assholes running around wrecking people who are beefs wearing obsidian armor.
Quote from: Reiloth on June 29, 2016, 11:26:44 AM
I'd be fine with an unarmed skill, as long as it is next to useless against anyone wearing significant armor. The last thing i'd like to see are a bunch of kung fu assholes running around wrecking people who are beefs wearing obsidian armor.
Yeah, that's my take on it.
You punched me in my chitin-plated chest? I scoff.
You disarmed me, made a grapple check against my arm, wrenched it behind my back and forced me to the ground? Okay then! Here's your sid.
What, make a skill like, 'grappling' that branches at journeyman subdue that Burglars start with and that warriors branch?
Also, it's pointless to say, 'oh, but unarmed is useless against people with armor'. As the unarmed code is currently, it's quite feasible to beat an armed and armored character while unarmed if you're -really- good. (Disarm also helps)
What about blunt? I can feasibly see a merchant thwacking Bandit Amos upside the head skillfully with a chunk of wood.
I don't really like merchants getting piercing as it invalidates assassins since they only get two weapon skills. There are 0 karma subs with combat skills as well as extended.
The guy in the video is either a necker with AI agi. Or a maxed ranger stump. Nuff said.
Giving merchants like, jman bludge would be alright for me.
I'm for whatever level lets me survive a little better. I don't want to be a desert badass. I just don't want to die in the 3-4 rounds it takes me to escape from a single gortok.
Honestly if you need jman bludg to run from a gortok you are doing it wrong. Hitting it to death isnt running away thats fighting it.
However, I would like to see every class given the same universal weapon skill that goes to maybe, just maybe jman. A brand new blanket skill for all something akin to bludgeoning but it would need to be basically a crap version. Improvised weapons basically if you dont have that weapon skill the weapon uses you get this in place to substitute for it with a moderate penalty given because well... Swinging a sword like a club is only mostly useless.
Improvised weapon might be a skill that applies to weapons you don't have a skill for, or something.
And it basically is half as effective as using a regular weapon and can only go up to jman or some shit idk.
Polearm wielding merchants when
Didnt think about that with advanced weapons... Could make those not count I guess.
I once had an old merchant / linguist elf (from tuluk, if that matters (the pansies)) and he regularly went out and hunted and of course he wore no armor.
This was back when I didn't know how dangerous everything in the world was. He ended up dying to dehydration because I had to go to work and it sucked.
Merchants really aren't as useless in combat as the majority seems to think. And now that I imagine that I understand most of the game mechanics, I'm pretty sure they're really not useless at all in combat. They suck, that's true enough, but not useless.
I'd rather not have the merchant elf with no armor thats barely managing to kill chalton in my group.
Quote from: Jihelu on June 30, 2016, 09:56:40 AM
I'd rather not have the merchant elf with no armor thats barely managing to kill chalton in my group.
steal horn jihelu
craft horn into needle
But more seriously, it was mentioned above that (a) not having combat skills on your sheet isn't the entire end of the world and (b) you can pick a subguild that grants you combat skills as a merchant, if that's the sort of merchant you want to pursue.
Now, no one said anything about the merchant protector. I love that guy.
I just wouldn't go hunting big/dangerous game with the person I oocly know is just a regular merchant/(something I don't care about subguild here)
I think this "merchants can't fight" idea is a self-fulfilling prophecy to a large extent. Most characters aren't that great at fighting right out of the box, and if you don't put time in (like if you think you won't ever git good), you'll continue to be bad.
Half-giant merchants can fight.
I've had merchants who had no trouble with shik and skeet. That's all I'd realistically expect to fight with a non-combat character.
For me, it all goes back to the lack of flee or any defensive skills.
Quote from: Miradus on June 30, 2016, 12:09:51 PM
For me, it all goes back to the lack of flee or any defensive skills.
Just FYI, 'flee' is also one of those commands you can still execute even if it isn't on your character sheet (AFAIK).
If Flee isn't on your sheet it is like trying to climb as someone who doesn't have the climb skill.
It sucks.
Only with climbing you usually don't die because you fall 1 room. With flee you hit it 19 thousand times and you are still stuck fighting those 15 gortoks.
And if you succeed and you don't have the skill your opponent is much more likely to hit you as you flee. And that shit HURTS.
Yeah, without the skill it just doesn't work so hot.
I'm not so onboard with merchants getting a weapon skill unless it's capped below j-man. Apprentice weapon skills are pretty decent for PvE once you have the offense/defense to go with it.
However, flee should be either a universal skill, or put back into a good variety of subguilds (not sure if they were removed, but the helpfile for some of the subguilds that used to have it no longer say they have it.)
Agreed.
Why is it that so many subguilds got direction sense and advanced ride when flee is just as useful? Seems like if you have those other two skills than you ought to have the third.
Agreed on flee.
I think it would be ideal if it worked like pilot. Anyone can open it up with enough practice, though the guilds that start with it tend to get better with it at the top end of what they can do.
I love the other idea about improvised weapons to basically allow you to try and use X or Y type weapon at about half the skill level of the improv weapons ability, because if it capped around journeyman for merchant and pp, and higher, say, advanced, for burglar and ranger, then letting assassins and warriors cap it at master. This would not only give warriors the top end on it, but would bolster the toolbox that assassins have to work with, giving them more versatility. Capping it higher than ranger would allow them to be more deadly to people with weapons they aren't formally trained in than rangers (which seems logical), etc etc etc.
Flee is a very important skill.
With it you can fight deadly things and escape with little worry - sleep - and then go out to try again.
Flee should definitely not be a skill everyone gets passed novice.
That being said, I've played plenty of characters without the flee skill and have still escaped with little worry - slept - and then went back out to try again anyway.
So it really doesn't matter, if you ask me. I just don't think every guild needs it.
Without flee... you have a little more fear about getting into combat at all. (especially now that having the flee skill makes a difference)
While I would love to see all skills universal, since things are not this way, I enjoy the idea of different classes describing a character and then sub-classes rounding out that character.
Merchants don't need greater combat skill. Because they're merchants. There are indeed subguilds (now) that offer greater combat skills. In the past I would of said, "subguild with weapons!" also.
I'm glad a bunch of people don't have flee. It's already too easy to escape death.
Flee has practically no command delay, so it's very spammable.
My thoughts -
Regarding someone actually playing a merchant, and picking the merchant guild to do so.
Unproven, new to the character - if someone is trying to attack them, it's not because they're a merchant. It's because of a) random raider, b) merchant made enemy and this is the consequence. c) merchant guild out hunting.
Easily solvable: if you're playing a new character, and he's a merchant guild, then stay close to the safety of the walls. By close, I mean - within 3 or 4 rooms. If you go further than that, hire someone to escort you or buddy up. You picked your guild - if you wanted to be someone who could wander outside cities by yourself, you should've picked ranger with a crafting subguild.
Another solution - wait until you can afford to hire a crew, before pissing people off. Then, your crew will protect you.
Proven, not new to the character, successful merchant-guild merchant mastercrafting stuff already: you're stinkin filthy rich. Hire bodyguard PCs. Use some of those sids, spread it around. Or, accept that you're an easy mark because you have uber stuff in your pack and no one keeping you safe. This is why they have "ruff circle" sparring. The person playing the merchant is supposed to stand there being vulnerable, and the crew is supposed to protect him from the nasty gith.
This is a good time to mention that dwarves get three times the normal rough circle gains!
I'd be completely fine with merchants getting like, apprentice flee though.
Not combat skills at all.
Just flee.
So they can atleast try to get the fuck away.
Use a subguild.
Which subguild adds flee and how many karma is it?
Quote from: Miradus on July 08, 2016, 11:19:41 AM
Which subguild adds flee and how many karma is it?
They took flee away from all the subguilds when they did the revamp.
I know warriors and pickpockets get it though.
I think -all- main guilds should come with a minimum of novice flee (higher depending on the guild).
At the very least, everyone should have a modest chance to succeed in "flee self."
I don't know how the mechanics function in order to give a complete accounting, but I have noticed that a merchant who runs into a gortok has a SIGNIFICANT level of difficulty in escaping compared to the fresh ranger with newbie flee skills. I would be surprised if everyone hasn't noticed it.
Quote from: Miradus on July 08, 2016, 12:31:32 PM
I don't know how the mechanics function in order to give a complete accounting, but I have noticed that a merchant who runs into a gortok has a SIGNIFICANT level of difficulty in escaping compared to the fresh ranger with newbie flee skills. I would be surprised if everyone hasn't noticed it.
I don't know about that. Flee has no lag time, you can flee as many times in a second as you can hit the "repeat action" key, whatever that happens to be. I've failed to flee ten times in a row and still made it out before my opponent's next attack. I probably had time to spare.
The main advantage of the flee skill isn't successfully fleeing, it's that you can choose a direction. Occassionally you also avoid the extra attack, but that isn't reliable even at master level. The only reliable and relevant difference I've found between no flee and master flee is your choice of direction.
Flee DOES have a lag time.
Editing to add: My post was in regards to the subject line of the OP. "Merchants and weapons."
Pick a subguild that comes with a weapon skill. :P
Quote from: boog on July 08, 2016, 02:19:53 PM
Flee DOES have a lag time.
It's incredibly small if it exists.
Quote from: Lizzie on July 08, 2016, 12:26:05 PM
I think -all- main guilds should come with a minimum of novice flee (higher depending on the guild).
At the very least, everyone should have a modest chance to succeed in "flee self."
Everyone does have a modest chance to succeed, even without the skill.
If you're having trouble fleeing you should probably have tried to flee sooner.
QuoteIf you're having trouble fleeing you should probably have tried to flee sooner.
Unless main guilds were changed, none of the rogue classes have flee. You needed to pick them up from a subguild. Flee before was just a way of knowing which way you ran. As you said, you have a pretty decent chance of fleeing even without the skill.
However, the part of this that is arguable is not whether flee is OP, it's whether it's necessary. With the addition of extra attacks on flee, those without the skill, if hit by reel, will almost certainly die when they flee, or be reeled in the next room, or get knocked out.
Yes, it is hard to pin people down, particularly with you guys insisting bash is useless. But the -inability- to pick up flee is a big deal. It's not about classes not getting it; it's about the option of having it being removed entirely. Subguilds with flee were worth it JUST for flee. Saying that your burglar/pickpocket/merchant/whatever is just destined to be hit every time they run away from an aggressor is a recipe for deep satisfaction on classes that are already suffering dissatisfaction.
Note that this knowledge is anecdotal and possibly out of date. But I do think that removing the option of gaining the skill to run away not safely, but more safely, and not making the skill itself at least minorly accessible to more people is a little irresponsible at this stage of the game where character-death is such an aversion to the majority of players.
Assassin gets flee?
I think?MAYBE?!
You know, considering I was drooling over the idea of an assassin/gladiator, I figure gladiator would be an easy subguild pick for merchant. A small ability to fight is a useful tool, and a reason to carry a bitchin' sword.
Quote from: AdamBlue on July 08, 2016, 10:38:35 PM
You know, considering I was drooling over the idea of an assassin/gladiator, I figure gladiator would be an easy subguild pick for merchant. A small ability to fight is a useful tool, and a reason to carry a bitchin' sword.
Theres always a reason to carry a sword.
Mostly cause if you get jumped and you have no weapons in hand rip you
Quote from: Armaddict on July 08, 2016, 06:39:41 PM
Note that this knowledge is anecdotal and possibly out of date.
It's out of date. Pretty sure we can't say more on the gdb.
Quote from: nauta on July 08, 2016, 10:39:45 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on July 08, 2016, 06:39:41 PM
Note that this knowledge is anecdotal and possibly out of date.
It's out of date. Pretty sure we can't say more on the gdb.
Roger dodger, thanks. I'll just have to relearn some things since changes are going on right now.
Merchants already get so many skills, adding a weapon skill and also flee to the guild would be too much. It may be very realistic that a merchant can use a weapon and also be able to run, yet Arm is not always about realism, it is about balance as well.
The subguilds work well to allow for a weapon skill. And unless a merchant wants a crafting skill not already available in the main guild (very few), using a subguild that allows for weapon(s) skills makes great sense.
I wonder though, what will happen with the main guild once the revamp is complete. Perhaps there will be an option for a fighter/merchant with more weapon skills and fewer crafting skills, or various types of specialized merchant (arms and armor, apparel etc). Not sure I would like to see the main guild changed though. I think it rocks as is.