Armageddon General Discussion Board

Last in the Feedback Trilogy.

When the 15 guilds went in, the idea was a spread of skills getting away from traditional role based classes to something that blurred the lines, allowing players to define their own roles beyond the traditional.  I'm not sure it worked out that way, and we have certainly gotten mixed feedback on how well blurring those lines worked.

Like the other feedback threads, no decision to change guilds has been made, but we'd like some feedback.  I've mocked up guilds based on defined roles, cutting them down to nine.  Nevermind the names, they are hopefully obviously not serious, I just don't know that we can reuse guilds, may have to come up with new ones and names.

• Melee Master - Hands down best in Melee combat
• Agent 47 - Oriented towards killing quickly and silently
• Melee hunter - Like an ancient Egyptian Pharoah, you hunt down your prey and stick it with your spear
• Melee Crafter - Can fight and make things, but not at the same time
• Sticky Fingers - Otherwise known as elves, can steal everything not nailed down and some of that as well
• Bow Hunter - Great at hunting from range, mediocre up close, great live off the land type making what they need
• Faire Maker - Never know what you are going to find, they seem to be able to make just about anything
• Criminal Maker - Otherwise known as the accomplice, makes city/criminal stuff, pretty good perception/stealth
• Tribal Maker - Can make stuff useful to their tribe and has skills allowing them to traverse the wilderness

If a skill name is in red, it means that the skill is at the maximum level possible across all guilds that get that skill.  If the below is too small, you can visit https://imgur.com/a/Q7Bi1MO (https://imgur.com/a/Q7Bi1MO)

(https://i.imgur.com/JpA8L8c.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/RoWziIe.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/6JpcZDA.jpg)

Most of the skills are set up the way I expected them to be, if you're going from 15 to 9 classes.

I would have put poisoning to advanced for stickyfingers, and poisoning to journeyman for Criminal Maker
Stickyfingers requires scan at advanced or higher.


I would have given leatherworking to Melee Crafter, but cap it at advanced  (after branching from tanning)

I like the way it's set up currently with a class type in each environment. I worry a lot of the variety in main class and subclass will be taken out. I love playing a traveling type raider with a crafting subclass, so I can do something and strive to collect things in my free time. If we were to do this, I would pick melee and then pick an outdoor class and not have my silly little hobby. I think the ones offered are too on the nose with little flexibility and most will not choose a subclass with crafting but, one that will round out their character for survivability in the different environments. And that's okay, but, saps out some of the variety in characters and the niches.

More fond of the current guilds than what's listed, personally. Whole lot more stuff and flexibility for certain concepts, especially for stuff where you're playing a blend of crafter and survivalist.

But as far as rating this as though it would be implemented as is... I feel like Agent-47 could probably take more of a hit to sneak/hide as far as game balance would be concerned. Even a lower-end Master level seems a bit much for me? More incentive there for him to take a sneaky sub, or to lose out on better sneak in favor of picking grebber or something.

Preferring the current setup is entirely valid.

Agent 47 would be a lot more in the direction of the old Assassin.

I guess I should have said, very roughly melee combat ability in order is sort of:

Melee Master
Melee Hunter
Agent 47 / Melee Crafter
Bow Hunter
Sticky Fingers
3 Makers roughly equally want to avoid a fight

Brokkr, dunno if you have the info in this format but it would be really useful to somehow compare these to the closest existing classes.

I'm a big fan of the existing class setup, though I think some of the least-used classes could go away. Raider, scout, stalker, and miscreant at least are so solid.

The classes need condensing but I'm not sold on this first draft of how to do so.

I don't have the spoons for further feedback. I'll try tomorrow.

You had me at advanced weapons, baby.

I'm all for a condensing. I do like the idea of still needing other people for things, but this FEELS more like "How do you earn a living". Are you a bow hunter? A maker? A criminal?

As opposed to the subclasses which always felt like how you earn a living, to supplement your natural abilities.

I would choose melee master with Boosting Subguild every time and not feel bad about it. Give me my knife weapons and Close Quarters Combat (can subdue mid-combat for a pre-lag that prevents you from swinging)

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on June 21, 2022, 04:24:43 PM
Brokkr, dunno if you have the info in this format but it would be really useful to somehow compare these to the closest existing classes.

I'm a big fan of the existing class setup, though I think some of the least-used classes could go away. Raider, scout, stalker, and miscreant at least are so solid.

I'd have to put it together.  The trick is, compare what to what?

Agent 47 to Enforcer or to Infiltrator? Melee Hunter to Raider or Scout? Etc.

I believe many of the existing guilds are already very solid and some of the existing ones should be somewhat reworked. Creating a kit of skills with the intent for players to use that kit for a specific purpose means that you are inadvertently limiting the kinds of things people are able to do. I'd rather instead consider why certain main guilds are really underutilized and how they can be reworked or improved.

I think removing sucky branching would go a long way to that measure. Dune trader's tentmaking->clothworking or adventurer's flee->parry come to mind. Also if pilferer somehow got access to poisoning (which both miscreant and fence have) would be nice.

These seem to go very much back in the direction of the old guilds. I like the 'feel' of having these archetypes back - warrior, assassin, pickpocket, two sorts of rangers, three types of merchants, and a crafter/fighter mix on top of that.

I also really, really like the flexibility that the current guilds offer. My playtimes suck and the way I deal with that is making a character, then deciding what to do with that PC afterwards, depending on where I find other active players. At first glance, I assumed that some of that flexibility would get lost with the classes proposed here, but I don't think that's actually the case. The 'Criminal Maker' seems to be both a better criminal and a better crafter than the current hybrid class (pilferer).

It seems like the assassins/Agent47 will be the new "masters of pick making" since they're the only ones that don't face the chicken-egg problem of needing access to lock picks to branch pick making. That seems a bit weird (why not give that to the criminal crafters), but it could work regardless.

Melee hunters shouldn't have to branch sling use. It's a very basic, accessible skill, let them branch throw instead.

I'm not a fan of bringing the advanced weapon skills back, they sucked and were removed for a reason.

Riposte should go the way of the kank and advanced weapon skills - it punishes an attacker for having good offense/weapon skills because they get parried instead of dodged. 

It would be cool if the different races had different role choices as well. But, I know that is a lot of work. A lot. So, I don't expect that to happen.

Alright, Balancing these....

Melee master should get only ranged skills at any real level that can directly relate to...Melee.

SO...Archery and crossbow, I think they should not get or get to rather low levels (Middle JM at best). Maybe sling to advanced and throw to advanced or low master as having rock/knife/spear in hand and being able to throw at fleeing or advancing foe does make sense for "melee master".
I Also think that though bandage makes sense...middle advanced at best, Can he slap a bandage on because of all the weapons training, Yes, is he a doctor...Um...no.
I would cut guard in half but leave rescue master.
Otherwise looks alright.

Agent-47
Over all looks fine.

Melee hunter.
Mostly alright. I would reduce guard and rescue levels I think, Well, maybe reduce guard only slightly, outdoors combat types have a higher need of guard so would train it, Lower rescue to usable but not near master. I see that hide and sneak are not red, so master but not max level...should be fine.

Makers all look fine to me....Though I sort of wonder if there needs to be 3 types when you take into account sub classes...Don't know.

Melee crafter.
Again, too many ranged skills at too high of a level, Pick one, put it at max advanced. I would likely raise guard and rescue on this class...low master.

Sticky fingers.
This one looks fine, and likely an often picked class for many style of PCs when you consider possible subs.

Bow hunter.
Firstly I would lower or remove guard and rescue altogether. Leaning towards remove. I would also lower blind fighting to middle JM.
Otherwise, looks fine.

Quote from: X-D on June 21, 2022, 05:43:11 PM

I would cut guard in half but leave rescue master.

Melee master is the only class that has guard at max.  This would mean...no class gets guard at max.

Brokkr:
Understandable...BUT. If they are getting both guard and rescue so high, they really should, I think, lose ranged skills other then a usable level of throw.

There are subs, not to mention balance issues verses the other classes. Myself, I tend to see the role of "melee master" As less of standing watching everybody intently waiting for an attack and far more likely to be REALLY good at reacting after the fact. Why I said they should have high rescue. Low guard.

Meanwhile balancing Guard and rescue skills with other classes, Melee hunter would be the one with the higher guard as he should have higher perception skills...I mean, that is his job after all.

In terms of Quality of Life crafter, I'll say Tribal maker/Criminal Maker is so much better than faire maker. I'd like to see faire maker get journeyman skinning and master bandaging just as old merchants had. Unless wagon making offers some new things I'm unaware of, Faire Maker's current set seems lackluster.

I like the classes we have, by and large, and would prefer to keep them over this change right here.

I'd prefer to keep our current classes to this change.

At first glance I don't like it.  But there are still lot of unanswered questions.

Essentially its warrior, ranger, assassin and burgalar/pickpocket (which is basically miscreant, lol).

Again just at first glance:

• Bow and melee hunter should be combined(lets call the combination, new ranger for lack of a better word). They are both equally lackluster split like that. Blow_gun use has been removed, peace. Bash should be removed. Tanning and leatherworking should be removed. Guard and rescue at modest levels is okay but their role is hunter/gatherer, play melee master if you want a solid guard.
• The  new ranger and agent should have similar melee combat abilities. Weapons skills to low advanced. Dual weilding and two handed to low master. shield use to high advanced, etc. They should improve combat like light combat classes do currently.
•   Melee master should be the only class getting disarm and ability to learn combat quicker as per current heavy combat classes, and have the highest cap for defensive skills like parry, shield use, etc. Its much stronger than before with bandage and listen. I have some seriously mixed feeling about advanced weapons.   
• Agent should start with sap and get advanced bash and MAXed sneak
• sticky fingers needs MAXed hide, and why do i get the sneaking suspicious it is a further nerfed miscreant.
• Criminal maker should start with pickmaking

The attempt to once again nerf city stealth and split ranger into two crappier version of itself kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth in a way I cannot fully articulate. This is especially true after seeing how much more powerful the melee master looks than the original warrior, where all the other classes seem to all be watered down in some way or another to what we currently have.

Some beefy subclasses with maxed master skills would need to be added to make these classes as interesting to play as our current classes.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 21, 2022, 04:53:24 PM
I'd have to put it together.  The trick is, compare what to what? Agent 47 to Enforcer or to Infiltrator? Melee Hunter to Raider or Scout? Etc.

Yeah, I think most of these need diffs against at least two existing classes. It's all complicated. Maybe I will put something together tomorrow if nobody else has gotten to it first. :D

Heh, Unlike Dresan, I actually like the idea of two different style hunters rather then one single style that is either going to be overall OP or over all lackluster like we have now.

Although, I would bet that almost every tribal, specially elves would be taking Bow hunter.

I am totally on the other side of field compared to Dresan on how interesting the current classes are to play.

Feedback on current classes:
  I think it's pretty well known that I don't like them.  It isn't against the -idea- of them, but I believe the implementation may have been off; in order to 'blur the lines', we made every class so chock full of skills that yes, the lines are blurred, but so is their purpose.  Every class is overwhelmingly versatile, subguilds were made weird as a result.  It was likely excellent for people who like crafting, since they are now more capable while having their crafting classes.  It is likely more desirable for off-peak as well, where they simply don't have as many cooperative options to get things done.  For me, as a prime-time, mostly utilitarian class-picker...there's a lot of redundancy.  The mismatches of skill levels gets weird in some places (I still don't like the state of infiltrator vs miscreant).  Overall, the classes and subclasses combined look arbitrary and undirected.  I believe core classes are meant to provide the 'mashed potatoes' of how a character works, and the subclass should provide the gravy and seasonings.

Feedback on proposed classes:
I like them better.  I just do.  They are more strongly themed.  I will not go into nit-pickiness over every individual skill level, but I do believe classes define methodology and capability for certain avenues of methodology.  No one is sharply restricted to anything with subclasses, but they are choosing their true area of expertise, rather than trying to hide it in 3 different levels that often kind of fight against each other as far as being a 'themed' character.

Sidenote:
Honestly, the best thing in my mind is to make a relatively major change here, in the case that changes do get decided on.  1 is, yes, the buy system or point allocation system that lets players build their character with all the theme they want; they can tremendously mess this up by trying to go too broad, which is what I think the current classes do but with 'guaranteed efficacy'.  Too much 'jack of many trades' results in a swelteringly boring character field.  2 is something I favor as a more moderate stepping stone that has the guarantees, but also the theming and role-cost; change the way that double-picked skills interact so that their maxes combine rather than overrule, then modify 'core' classes to have much lower skill caps.  Melee Master?  It would need to be combined with something else that gave 'weapon skill' in order to become master level, and the sacrifice is breadth in your subclass.  Master assassin?  Guess what, you aren't taking both a city class and a desert subclass.  (Yes, wilderness hide and city hide should be separate skills rather than just granting the 'opposite' biome quality to their max skill).  Crafting the best armor in the known?  You took both a crafting class and subclass.  This doesn't mean that everyone needs gimp levels of everything, that would be a per-skill examination.  You could have subclasses be -big- skill maxes...or small ones.  You can split the skills as desired evenly between core and subclasses, or weight it more towards core classes (making core class the big decider), or weight it more towards subclasses (allowing breadth from off-core classes possible, i.e. non-crafting class and crafting subclass crafts pretty well!).  It gives a little bit MORE options on how to adjust tuning without breaking things, and gives a lot MORE options on how specialized your character is, due to the wealth of subclasses.

Apologies for the ramble and how this may come out since I am typing on my phone from the road.

I'm not necessarily a huge fan of our current setup, but it provides a little more versatility than this.

Melee master seems far more powered than the rest and while it does kind of bring us back to the original guilds? I would combine both melee and bow hunters, both agent 47 and sticky fingers and likely remove tribal crafter to combine between the other two. I do like the melee crafter though as it hits a nice middle ground.

This would increase the skills lists, but unlike our current setup, it would provide more playability than having to always rely on another player for certain skills rather than having the skill yourself, even at a lower level so you at least have a chance. It can be difficult when you can't find that person you need and often makes me less likely to play.

Slightly off topic, but if I can at elast suggest it, I believe subclasses should have the most rework or maybe in tandem. There are a large number and most of them are less than desirable when compared to an extended. I would also remove the karma need from them as it just creates a needless disparity between new players and those who have a karma. If someone has the karma, I am sure it's extremely rare to even bother with the normal subs at all and for newer players, if they survive, can make their characters more appealing to them.

I'd rather see in-depth reasoning for the 15 classes and in-depth reasoning for their failure than some 9 spitballed roles.

It feels like this isn't fine tuning but running from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Quote from: Dresan on June 21, 2022, 06:19:32 PM

• Bow and melee hunter should be combined(lets call the combination, new ranger for lack of a better word). They are both equally lackluster split like that. Blow_gun use has been removed, peace. Bash should be removed. Tanning and leatherworking should be removed. Guard and rescue at modest levels is okay but their role is hunter/gatherer, play melee master if you want a solid guard.
• The  new ranger and agent should have similar melee combat abilities. Weapons skills to low advanced. Dual weilding and two handed to low master. shield use to high advanced, etc. They should improve combat like light combat classes do currently.
•   Melee master should be the only class getting disarm and ability to learn combat quicker as per current heavy combat classes, and have the highest cap for defensive skills like parry, shield use, etc. Its much stronger than before with bandage and listen. I have some seriously mixed feeling about advanced weapons.   
• Agent should start with sap and get advanced bash and MAXed sneak
• sticky fingers needs MAXed hide, and why do i get the sneaking suspicious it is a further nerfed miscreant.
• Criminal maker should start with pickmaking

• Not going back to ranger, as when you look at legacy ranger it is clearly OP because it got it all.  Two classes for two different playstyles.
• Legacy ranger and legacy assassin did not get to equivalent melee combat ability, which is where the idea came from.
• Advanced weapons had some issues.  These branch earlier, which solves some of them.
• Sneak is lower as within most city rooms there will be no issues, but it is at a level to make it harder when they cross flag to wilderness stealth.
• Sticky fingers has the same sneak/hide values as pickpocket had.
• I went back and forth on that, there are pros and cons each way.

Please give sticky fingers City hunt, even if it's at Jman.

Reasoning: this helps a bunch for thieving. Ie: Seeing if someone has come out of a room recent, or gone in. Tracking a noble/merchant back to their specific room in an estate. Finding secret places people have gone into

Also useful for: Making sure you weren't followed to your stash.

Lairos, I noticed that everybody has at least some direction sense and most have at least some skinning. I am not seeing any of these classes that looks like it would "Have" To rely on anybody else. But does make that help likely preferred, But then, that was the case with legacy classes for the most part.

Also, as Brokkr said, and a point I agree on, Old rangers were OP, one reason we all like them so much of course. Why I like this split, Still very highly skilled but with different focus.

Melee master is the one I still see as being OP, But I think that with a few skill reductions and removals, it would be fine a definitally fill several roles.

(edit) Yeah, city hunt is needed for sticky fingers, mid JM should be fine.

Quote from: X-D on June 21, 2022, 07:46:53 PM


(edit) Yeah, city hunt is needed for sticky fingers, mid JM should be fine.

I'de branch it off Listen, personally. As it is filling a similar role in the kit.

I'd like to join the people who say that I like the current classes, with the exception that I would greatly like custom crafting to be more widely available. I'd love for it to be possible at multiple skill-levels, too, as I adore shitty little Jman level crafts in the theme of the game :)

Quote from: zealus on June 21, 2022, 08:47:56 PM
I would greatly like custom crafting to be more widely available. I'd love for it to be possible at multiple skill-levels, too, as I adore shitty little Jman level crafts in the theme of the game :)

+1 to this

Quote from: Brokkr on June 21, 2022, 07:12:58 PM

Stuff

I feel there is more flexability with the current classes. In short, to me the current classes, which admittedly seem a lot stronger, are more fun to play then what you have proposed. This is despite the fact that for the most part you've tried to offer rough equivalents to currently popular classes.

melee master= old warrior buffed
melee hunter= weaken raider/strengthened scout(?)
Bow hunter= stalker, great archery but no more blow_gun use. Peace.
agent =weaker infiltrator, strong assassin
sticky fingers= miscreant. ( nerfed again?  :P)

I think the loss of infiltrator and enforcer would most heartbreaking. Agent gained master sap which like current infiltrator and miscreant has much less synergy with its kit. The agent comparison to infiltrator its a much poorer fighter.

I stopped playing crafter classes after the old merchant guild was retired so I won't comment on any of those.  One good thing is that everyone seemed to get at least apprentice level direction sense. Unfortunately, there isn't anything thats been proposed that I would be looking forward to playing.

But I am happy XD likes it.  ;D

Quote from: Brokkr on June 21, 2022, 07:12:58 PM

• Sticky fingers has the same sneak/hide values as pickpocket had.

Which is less than the current max values miscreant has, right? And steal is back to the same level as before miscreant nerf? Or is the  current nerfed miscreant value the new max cap?

Brokkr,

I appreciate you reaching out to discuss this topic. Here are my two cents:

1. Revert back to the Original Classes and tweak those
2. Keep things as they are

There was an appeal with the old classes (Warrior, Assassin, etc) mostly in that I knew what I was getting into when I picked the class. I could plan an archetype around that class, a character around what skills I knew I would get and how they would work together, and so on.

As X-D pointed out, OG Ranger was definitely OP -- And a bunch of fun to play, but pretty much every class/guild felt strong if properly trained and so on.

I feel a bit lost with the new classes, TBH.

I had a 30+ day Soldier that was very, very well trained (exceedingly well trained) but when he trained/encountered day 0 fighters, they would sometimes scrub his ass. That felt very weird and like something that wouldn't happen with the old guilds/classes.

There was a synergy with the old classes. The positives and negatives of each choice seemed more clear cut. With the new system, I feel I have to do more than a fair bit of research using trirste''s skill picker just to make sure I am getting everything I want out of it, and sometimes I feel I am getting too MANY skills.

I often feel like we are working within and against the constraints of DIKU with the lack of skill buy/ability buy, both for creating characters and improving characters as they survive. The sheer amount of new classes reminds me of Mass Effect or other games that provide "Archetype Roles" and then also let you customize if you want to.

Honestly, one of the hangups of ArmageddonMUD being a truly realized RPI, where each PC is truly unique and different, is a skill buy/ability purchase system, wherein someone can further define their character as they survive and reach new milestones. We are working within a system that (thankfully) doesn't deal with experience points. But -- We are also working within a system that is static and binary unless intervened with by Staff.

The more flavor and customization we allow for and provide, the more popular the game will be, full stop. It's a text based game that at times feels very much a hangover from how games were made/designed in the early 90's. We haven't only come leaps and bounds codedly speaking, but also leaps and bounds philosophically speaking in terms of game design.

Armaddict points to this earlier in the thread, wherein he calls out that it isn't the 'grind' that is so much the issue, as that of replayability. When choices are limited and difficult to parse through and differentiate, it becomes more difficult to jump into a new concept that will be exciting and different. It will feel like a different brand of the same flavor of ice cream. Eventually, you get sick of eating ice cream and take a break for a while.

In essence:
-More customization or ability to customize, either at the beginning or later in the stage of a PC (Think, the subguild-later option that was added, along those lines). It's been repeatedly said we can't move to a skill/ability buy system, so perhaps there is a more creative way to bridge the gap.

-More 'flavor' abilities and sub guilds that help make each PC stand apart and different from one another. This also was said not to be up for discussion at this time, which is fine, maybe down the road.

-More clear cut differences between classes, meaning big strengths, and just as big weaknesses, that can be bridged slightly through sub-classes.

-Fewer classes to pick from, and from those, most are obvious (Think Fighter, Mage, Rogue, Archer).

So I'm going to offer some feedback from the perspective of the player that doesn't know. I've barely played all the classes, this is one of my first chars to master more than two things, but I've been playing a long time.

Skills, code, combat balancing, it's all really over my head. I come for the RP, decide what I want to spend my time doing, dig and dig and dig through help files for whatever combo I can access that'll let me play that way, or close to it. Explorer types, or a city-bound crafter, or a daring rogue. Try as I might to understand all of the mechanics, this is more how I see classes (or whatever combo I cobble together for specific function). That's why main guilds like assassin and ranger were appealing to me and my limited peeps silent out there. It was all packaged and ready to go.

When I played a main guild mage, I employed every skill I had, making the char concept after deciding whqt stage my char would be on most often and what players could use, expect, and work with for good rp. I did the same with my warriors. And my HG warriors were just that! HG warriors, using whatever skills they had to rp that out well.

I do, truly, truly appreciate the vast amount of civilized dialog and in depth research you all are doing, players and staff alike.

TL;DR I like guilds that are clearly named for the role they play IG, can't follow heavy, in-depth mechanics, nd appreciate all of the work. I feel I can trust it, seeing well-known players weigh in and be heard, etc.

Any skill capped at Apprentice or Journeyman that can lead to fatal consequences for a PC is just bait to kill PCs. Looking at you, Melee Crafter's [apprentice] Climb and Sticky Fingers poisoning. Apprentice skinning and direction sense are also something of jokes as well. Make them advanced or take them out and reduce some clutter.

Criminal Maker - Is it a criminal that's a maker, or a maker that hangs out with criminals? If the latter, pick making being behind pick seems really strange (If the former it still feels....painful). If it has to be behind something, probably not the skill that it is seemingly a prerequisite for. Seems increasingly confusing because Agent 47, murder-man class, has easier access to pick making. I'd be happier seeing it behind clayworking. Give people a reason to go digging.

Faire Maker - This skill list probably confuses me the most to read. My biggest concern, and the only thing I'm going to speak on, axe making is behind lumberjacking. If you're based in the south, you're never going to branch axe making. You can, technically, yes. I can see all kinds of ways to make it happen. Maybe there's something new in the world that I'm unaware of. Criminal has it outright, and Tribal has it behind spear making. So I'm not sure if the goal is to give each of the crafters a different branch pattern, or if this is happenstance.

I almost wonder if it would be an idea to just broaden the list of subclasses and let people pick 3 subclasses instead of a class&subclass <.< >.>

I look at this list, then my brain flickers over to the subclasses page and I'm presuming I'm not meant to discuss that thread over here but the dirty little min/max goblin my brain goes "Oh shiny" when looking at certain classes, then looks at possibilities to make it even more busted.

I feel an overwhelming urge to delete what I've already written and just shut up. But, I wonder if there's been any consideration for how players actually decide to make their characters before looking at what options to present to them, and how to present those options.

With the advent of skill lists being available on the website, the way I presently approach making a character is as follows: I make a theme and pick a few (usually like 3-4) skills that I consider core to that theme. Then I start looking at classes. I literally don't care what the class is called, or what it's themed around. I just look at its skills. Then I look at the skills available from subclasses. Then I see what options I have to get those 4 skills at the highest level possible. Then I look at what the rest of my skills are after that's done. If I hate my skill spread, I consider if I can change my core skills, or change the concept entirely. And so on.

Sometimes I have an entire description, backstory, sidestory, and direction to start heading in once I log in made before I ever look at the coded classes/subclasses. Sometimes I have three sentences of an idea and I start tearing the classes apart. I view the classes as a means to provide coded support to an idea. Because if you say you can do something, and there's a coded way to do it, people will expect you to use the code to back up your claim. Otherwise I'd be be spitting roaches into cups and giving them to people for dinner.

I don't know if this is a common approach, or if approach is considered important at all.

I appreciate the transparency and invitation for feedback. I'm gonna go back into my hole now.

There are some good ideas in the proposed classes that would help current classes:

1. Allow soldier and fighter to branch advanced weapons.
2. Replace light and heavy merchantile classes with proposed crafting classes.
3. Ensure all classes have at least apprentice direction sense. (better than nothing so I'll take it.)

I only just got used to fhe current system, I don't want them to change!

I really, reallt like the current system, a few classes could use a few tweaks but it is otherwise fine in my opinion.

I'm a newer player so I don't know of these old classes, but I happen to like the way things are currently set up. If a couple things need a tweak or two, that makes much more sense than these proposed new classes that bring far less flexibility (which goes against the idea of trying to attract more people, especially offpeak) and throwing in skills capped at levels that are pretty useless, which, when just counted out, make it even more restrictive. (Because really who is going to trust jman poisoning? Apprentice climbing? Journeyman bash?).

Do not like.

I'm getting a little bit slow as I age 8) Can I ask what is the intended purpose with the suggested (or any other) possible change? I failed to get it from the OP.
More specifically, what is the problem with current classes?
How does reducing to 9 will help? (That the current classes cannot solve today)

Apprentice skinning is very useful, and risk-free even if you do fuck it up. Journeyman poisoning is OK, too, if you have cures available.

Brokkr did say, what they were aiming for with the new classes seems to not really be panning out.

From my end of things, I say that the legacy classes were actually better at fostering co-operation.

Even Novice skinning/direction sense is 500 times better than no skill at all. Apprentice is like god mode compared to none at all.

Quotemelee master= old warrior buffed
melee hunter= weaken raider/strengthened scout(?)
Bow hunter= stalker, great archery but no more blow_gun use. Peace.
agent =weaker infiltrator, strong assassin
sticky fingers= miscreant. ( nerfed again?  :P)

I think the loss of infiltrator and enforcer would most heartbreaking. Agent gained master sap which like current infiltrator and miscreant has much less synergy with its kit. The agent comparison to infiltrator its a much poorer fighter.

Alright, where to start....Um, Bow hunter FAR better then stalker, laughable comparison.
Melee master, Yes, legacy warrior/fighter, nothing new here.
Agent, How do you figure weaker infiltrator? When Agent gets better Backstab, better sap, better hide, better poison, better throw, better blowgun and better listen. AND direction sense and Brew. And Less synergy? Add aggressor sub and FAR better then enforcer....Um...not to offend, but were you high when posting?
Sticky fingers: Burgler + pickpocket the way it should have been done when the game started
Melee hunter: Weakened ranger or drastically improved scout, Add an aggressor sub and drastically improved raider.

Quote from: X-D on June 22, 2022, 10:06:22 AM
Agent, How do you figure weaker infiltrator? When Agent gets better Backstab, better sap, better hide, better poison, better throw, better blowgun and better listen. AND direction sense and Brew. And Less synergy? Add aggressor sub and FAR better then enforcer....Um...not to offend, but were you high when posting?

Bow hunter is probably going to be preference. I like the fact that stalker has blowgun use but I can see master archery being preferred by some people.

Agent gets better backstab? Did you miss the post where infiltrator was recently buffed. Advanced level brew, lol. You think a subclass will match the combat prowless of enforcer or make meele hunter be as good as raider? I am not sure if your joking here but even following this ridiculous logic it means I need a subclass to match what I am getting currently by just picking enforcer or raider.  And before someone chimes in with the obvious, yes I know its intentionally being done. ::)

However, I will break this down so that its very simple for anyone to understand: What is being proposed here is a nerf to classes people, I myself included, really enjoy playing. If you think this won't have negative impact on the game experience, you are fooling youself.

When we moved from guilds to classes, most were on board because for the most part classes introduced were much stronger and diverse than the rigid system had before. Thus there was very little impact on that change, despite concerns they were too strong. That is not the case this time.

Though hey with advertising just around the corner, i am sure some people think it is probably a good time to clean house in more ways than one.  :-\

Oh I did not miss the infiltrator buff, Master does not equal max though. Still, at the worst they are equal on that point.

As to "matching" Combat prowess, I never said that did I?

QuoteHowever, I will break this down so that its very simple for anyone to understand: What is being proposed here is a nerf to classes people, I myself included, really enjoy playing. If you think this won't have negative impact on the game experience, you are fooling youself.

While a legit point, why is it only your side is legit? Classes was a nerf to Guild people like myself...etc etc.

QuoteWhen we moved from guilds to classes, most were on board because for the most part classes introduced were much stronger and diverse than the rigid system had before. Thus there was very little impact on that change, despite concerns they were too strong. That is not the case this time.

Most of that is at best opinion, and conjecture. How do you know "most" Were on board, there was no poll and I remember at best that Most were on the wait and see side. As to classes being stronger, LOL, at the time of introduction I would have been willing to put all but fighter against legacy counterparts to prove that false. There was plenty of impact, But Um, who was concerned they would be too strong? I know I was not, My concern is too weak, and they were, maybe still are after quite a bit of tweeking. combined with really having no concise feeling to them.

Now, nobody says any of these proposed will even happen, I think they should, because I prefer the style of balance where your PC can become exceptional in chosen field rather than just kinda good at an undefined field. Still, Should they happen, that is still, 9 classes...where exactly are you seeing some huge loss to diversity? Especially if subs are reworked and rebalanced to the new classes. Which, mind you is not the case currently, as all subs were made to balance the legacy classes.

It looks like it was designed like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/tUabR8u.png)

Did this by hand rather than from files, so might be mistakes here and there, but should be mostly ok.  Just done these two for now to give an idea.

If it says better or worse, it is for that guild.  So for Melee Master and the archery skill, for example, Fighter is better at it than Melee Master and Warrior was worse than Melee Fighter at it.

(https://i.imgur.com/KLwsUIJ.png)       (https://i.imgur.com/q0MApbj.png)

These look fun to play. My big sadness is that none of them is a very close replacement for raider: top tier melee + ranged + mounted combat, plus outdoor stealth and utility; which you pay for by getting no crafting, bandaging, or skinning.

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on June 22, 2022, 03:32:19 PM
These look fun to play. My big sadness is that none of them is a very close replacement for raider: top tier melee + ranged + mounted combat, plus outdoor stealth and utility; which you pay for by getting no crafting, bandaging, or skinning.

Wouldn't that be "Melee Hunter" ?
(https://i.imgur.com/iCTuTtn.jpg)
Or do you want the melee skills to be higher than what is listed?

Quote from: mansa on June 22, 2022, 03:40:34 PM

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on June 22, 2022, 03:32:19 PM
raider

Wouldn't that be "Melee Hunter" ?

That's a fantastic class with a bunch more utility than raider. It's missing kick and disarm, which matters for defense even if you don't use them actively. I will downgrade "sad" to "thoughtful." :D

QuoteHowever, I will break this down so that its very simple for anyone to understand: What is being proposed here is a nerf to classes people, I myself included, really enjoy playing.

Of course you enjoy playing them.  They're all so loosely designed that they had to cram every skill possible into them.  They shifted away from role based, in the legacy classes, towards this, which was meant to blur the lines.  Instead it made an entire game full of jack-of-all-trades, master of some.  They are bloated, overlapping, undefined, and make subclasses some of the weirdest things ever.

As an example, ever play Pathfinder?  Yes, entirely different game, I know, but let's just say that you dive into pathfinder.  You decide that you want to have one of ye olde classic ranger characters.  This is, after all, the role that classes play for the vast majority of people: they create archtypes.  They dictate the role, the way your character does things.  So you go in, but now you see this hunter class as well.  And then this, this is a slayer.  They have some components of rangerhood, but then it's crossed over without being a multiclass.  What you've done here, is you've crammed a bunch of different things into the same role of a limited party.  Inevitably, they box each other out; you can only afford one at a time, so you end up on a rotation until you find a favorite.

Now, how that relates to Armageddon?  We've crammed a bunch of stuff into the same roles.  We've tried to make them distinctive, but subclasses essentially are used by players to nullify those distinctions that were not terribly large in the first place.  We've got a bunch of skillsets, all of which are over-saturated, vying for the same thing...which when you condense them, becomes these role-based classes, which can -actually utilize subclasses correctly-.  The movement is away from 'Hmm, do I want my wilderness character to have master or advanced here, in return for advanced over here?', and moving into 'Okay, so my character will eventually be comfortable in this area of the game, which subclass do I do to make them rounded out, more specialized, or involved in another area of the game?'

And that, in turn, moves us in reverse, because the experimental classes did not perform exactly -well-.  Making a bunch more self-sufficient classes that are over-compensated is great for off-peak and solo players.  For the game?  Not so much.  All they did was give more incentive for people to not need cooperative play, particularly where we buffed out the vulnerable low-skill area  (despite people still seeing this as a terrible grind).  This feedback thread is, in the end, something where I -expect- people to cling to these new classes (the current ones, not the ones presented in this thread).  The quote from above is exactly what I expected from the playerbase.  I expect the playerbase to 'see these classes as better'.  Because they are.  They got overtuned to the max, flying completely out of the normal RPG design of roles in order to try to make everyone super capable.  And that made the game as a whole suffer, even if each individual player felt better for it.  We tried to move away from the 'class standard' of RPGs that is based on fulfilling a role or niche that makes part of a group, rather than a character designed to go through the whole story alone.  And that didn't work out so hot, as far as building stories in a multiplayer setting.

Quote from: X-D on June 22, 2022, 02:12:30 PM
Oh I did not miss the infiltrator buff, Master does not equal max though. Still, at the worst they are equal on that point.

Based on the announcements from staff they should be equal.

Either way, as I said before I'm happy you like the changes. I just don't. There is a clearly difference in opinion and preference of play.

While there are some ideas that have been presented that could improve the current state of the classes, such as giving low level direction sense to everyone, I still feel the overall proposed solution is a nerf to the mundane experience.  I haven't read anything so far to change my mind. I think there have been enough big changes to the game for people to now realize people don't just move on and adapt, they just flat out leave and reverting stuff back after doesn't often bring people back.

That is however just my opinion, and since I've said my piece of the matter so I am not going to provide more feedback on this idea.

I am though going to just wish the staff and game luck and success in whatever they decide to do. :)

Reposting giving Sticky Fingers City Hunt at Jman. Cause if the class changes go through, it will be a big skill they will be missing.

I really want to respond to this but all three ideas being dropped in rapid succession is pretty overwhelming.

So I'm going to just sum up my feelings briefly in one place here.

1) Not in favor of skill-boosted subguilds. Leave that as a special app.
2) In favor of adjusting the subguilds, but not in favor of the skill mastery subguilds.
3) In favor of condensing the classes for stronger themes, but I have serious reservations about the first draft we have here.
   3a) I think it's a good start, though.

I would like to give more detailed feedback when real life obligations aren't slamming me.

Do you prefer feedback through the request tool or on the GDB? Some of my feedback may be code sensitive which is why I ask.

You can put in a request if you feel the feedback is sensitive.

This all will be open at least another couple of weeks, not in a rush.

Looked over the crafter classes again, I like them as posted, tribal maker seems cool enough to take even though I do not like crafters...heh.

Sticky fingers does need hunt....without it I would think the combat or at least parry/shield would need to increase to account for added risk.

I think both the melee classes should have greatly reduced ranged skills, If you feel balance is needed there, melee master could have say 5(point/percent, whichever is higher) higher disarm and bash...(yes, I know exactly how strong that would be raising the class skill max) And Melee hunter could get a medium level bash.

Did no one else see there is a skill called

alcohal

In the skill list for the proposed guilds?

Is this your alcohol tolerance? The ability to craft alcohol? Did I miss some important announcement?

(https://i.imgur.com/acLOP9p.png)

Alcohol tolerance.

If these guilds were to actually be implemented then I'd love to see all of the crafting skills pre branched on the crafters

crim maker branching max master pick making from jman pick is fucking stupid in the same way a lot of dune trader's current branching is

Quote from: Lotion on June 24, 2022, 03:29:38 PM
crim maker branching max master pick making from jman pick is fucking stupid in the same way a lot of dune trader's current branching is

What's stupid about it? You pick some locks; then one day you're like, you know what, I could probably make one of these.

It does require some kind of interaction with the game world to get those first dozen picks, but pick is a disruptive skill and gating pick availability is how it's regulated.

Not to mention being a very easy branch considering the max.

Quote from: X-D on June 24, 2022, 05:30:03 PM
Not to mention being a very easy branch considering the max.

Yeah I'm okay with this kind of gatekeeping because it means you need to do at least a little outreach, make some contacts, etc before you can churn out lockpicks to your heart's content. Which means opportunities to get involved with (or beholden to) the local crime scene. Or, find someone else who isn't. Or, find a go-between. That's story & interaction right there.

Bringing back the advanced weapon skills has me very nervous, and having them be on only one of nine classes equally so.

This means a ton of items need to be reworked back into the old styles and/or a bunch of new weapons added to the game.  Melee master having both a higher cap on weapons and skills no other class gets seems a really huge swing away from Enforcer and Raider back to Fighter and maybe a big over correction that will see most sneaky and outdoorsy fighter types taking Melee Master with a subguild rather than using the sneaky/outdoorsy melee oriented classes.

Quote from: Ender on June 24, 2022, 07:09:27 PM
Bringing back the advanced weapon skills has me very nervous, and having them be on only one of nine classes equally so.

This means a ton of items need to be reworked back into the old styles and/or a bunch of new weapons added to the game.  Melee master having both a higher cap on weapons and skills no other class gets seems a really huge swing away from Enforcer and Raider back to Fighter and maybe a big over correction that will see most sneaky and outdoorsy fighter types taking Melee Master with a subguild rather than using the sneaky/outdoorsy melee oriented classes.

good point.

give agent 47 razors and knives or whatever.

give melee tribal tridents or pikes. etc.

spread advanced weapons out over the fighting guilds where it makes sense. pure melee could still have them all.

Could you explain your concern?  They are just weapon categories currently, nothing really special about them.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 24, 2022, 09:15:19 PM
Could you explain your concern?  They are just weapon categories currently, nothing really special about them.

The way combat works, AFAIK, is the concern.

If someone has a weapon you've never trained with and can't use, they get a large bonus against you, correct?


pssstt... Sticky fingers.... C Hunt....

Quote from: Brokkr on June 24, 2022, 09:15:19 PM
Could you explain your concern?  They are just weapon categories currently, nothing really special about them.

Twofold.  It's more variety of weapons for a single class to have that literally no other class would get.  And I thought it was confirmed by staff that being better a weapon category gives a character better defense against that weapon category.  Having that class be the only one that gets them gives the impression that they will have a massive advantage over all the other classes that do not have defenses against against them.

Also, why gate them behind branches and give them to only one class if they aren't special?  Making them so hard to get and only from one class gives the impression that they are soemthing special.

QuoteMelee master having both a higher cap on weapons and skills no other class gets seems a really huge swing away from Enforcer and Raider back to Fighter and maybe a big over correction that will see most sneaky and outdoorsy fighter types taking Melee Master with a subguild rather than using the sneaky/outdoorsy melee oriented classes.

Depends on implementation more than theory.  This is how it was previously, and Ranger was vastly preferred to warriors.  So were assassins.  At least as far as playing into the role.  Fact is, when you DO have role-based main classes, getting versatility out of a subclass is very different than getting -main- skills you want from a subclass.  Choosing a melee-master/slipknife will never afford the same amount of stealth as the primary class.  Unless the entire premise of subclasses changes away from versatility to main-class-level skills as well.  In which case I don't know what the point of the 'ideas' of reshuffling is.

There's no way in hell that every subclass should be looking to get every weapon skill for the sake of 'but people will get bonuses if I don't have it.'  Using that logic to limit a role is less based in play and more based in fear, and fear of creating a monster can be reasonable, as long as you remember that the monster can also be dialed back to being a loyal pet again.

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on June 24, 2022, 04:08:42 PM

Quote from: Lotion on June 24, 2022, 03:29:38 PM
crim maker branching max master pick making from jman pick is fucking stupid in the same way a lot of dune trader's current branching is

What's stupid about it? You pick some locks; then one day you're like, you know what, I could probably make one of these.

It does require some kind of interaction with the game world to get those first dozen picks, but pick is a disruptive skill and gating pick availability is how it's regulated.

Because all the other crafter branching functions in a "OH!  I got really good at making this thing and now maybe know how to use it!"  Knifemaking branches Piercing Weapons.  Bowmaking branches Crossbow Use.  Fletchery branches Crossbow use.  Over and over again, knowing how to make something is what leads to how to use it through the crafterverse.

I acknowledge that the intent is to gate keep lockpicking.  I find that most of the people that need a good fucking with in Arm are probably behind a locked door.  As it stands Fence doesn't start with Pick making and never gets the ability to pick locks at all.  I think this in an excellent gate, they can make them and can never use them unless they take a sub.  Allowing for picks to make their way into the game world by requiring interaction with another player and not by knowing the secret of where to maybe find one if you're lucky is a massive improvement even if they make it annoying and the journey nonsensical.

It's not even the worst part about fence's design, is the sad part. City and wilderness skills are not created equally: the city-based ones VERY OFTEN require higher levels than wilderness skills, which are mostly fine to have even at medium-high levels. Fence is a class with skills you want to have up high at rather low levels, instead; dune trader, OTOH, starts with a bunch of wilderness skills that are in fact quite useful at its caps.

This is a tangent, but I don't like the proposed class ideas and I like what we have now, so please just let us keep the ones we have with some possible tweaks.

Quote from: Patuk on June 25, 2022, 11:50:11 AM
City and wilderness skills are not created equally: the city-based ones VERY OFTEN require higher levels than wilderness skills, which are mostly fine to have even at medium-high levels.

Please provide some examples.

Quote from: Lotion on June 25, 2022, 02:24:42 PM

Quote from: Patuk on June 25, 2022, 11:50:11 AM
City and wilderness skills are not created equally: the city-based ones VERY OFTEN require higher levels than wilderness skills, which are mostly fine to have even at medium-high levels.

Please provide some examples.

NPCs don't attack shadows/blurs.

Quote from: mansa on June 25, 2022, 02:26:13 PM

Quote from: Lotion on June 25, 2022, 02:24:42 PM

Quote from: Patuk on June 25, 2022, 11:50:11 AM
City and wilderness skills are not created equally: the city-based ones VERY OFTEN require higher levels than wilderness skills, which are mostly fine to have even at medium-high levels.

Please provide some examples.

NPCs don't attack shadows/blurs.

To be pedantically clear:

PC population is what matters to whether the skill floor is high or not. NPCs don't care; they're code driven. Staff may animate to help bring the world to life, and we should always act in ways that take the virtual world into account, but this just reinforces the problem, since scrab #318 isn't part of an organization and doesn't try to secure turf and business.

Meanwhile in the city, PC density is (hopefully) much higher, room by room, and those (v)NPCs are much more likely to be part of some organization that cares about some kind of territorial poaching.

Quote from: Lotion on June 25, 2022, 02:24:42 PM

Quote from: Patuk on June 25, 2022, 11:50:11 AM
City and wilderness skills are not created equally: the city-based ones VERY OFTEN require higher levels than wilderness skills, which are mostly fine to have even at medium-high levels.

Please provide some examples.

City skills on fence:

sneak, hide, peek, poisoning, sleight of hand, steal, listen, crossbows

Dune trader wilderness skills:

ride, skinning, dsense, scan, archery, crossbows, listen

Fence, plainly, doesn't benefit from that many of its skills. Low advanced sneak/hide is nice, but mostly good for NPC purposes. Peek at that low a cap is garbage, and so are sleight of hand, steal, and poisoning: you will be spotted/fail so damn often that the skills are functionally useless at those levels. Jman crossbows also are terribly unreliable, which is a bigger deal in (the PVP heavy) cities than out innawoods.

I'll grant that city listen is nice for eavesdropping. Good luck finding other criminals who'll talk while you're at another table though.

Advanced ride is a skill that's much more plainly useful: you zip around the desert faster, don't topple off your mount when a kagor sees you, you might even get to ride with a shield in your hand or both hands on a spear for added defence. Dsense, likewise, works pretty damn well at low advanced, and is a skill that is lovely to have at any level. This is also true for skinning, and it's EVEN more true on a heavy crafter, which is going to want to be able to split up carcasses/bones; I have genuinely seen fence-class PCs complain a damn ton over not being able to do it themselves and pay more money for having hunters do so, just because. Wilderness scan at low advanced lets you spot the likes of jozhal and tandu; I grant that wilderness listen isn't great. That leaves us with crossbows and archery, which are nicer outside than inside: you can afford to shoot non-predatory game and have them flee a bit, in a way that missing in the cities is much more of an acute problem.

Imo, if anything, replace one of fence's least useful skills with climb. I can kinda see why it doesn't get skinning, but raider/enforcer-tier climb is inoffensive enough of an addition that it won't wildly unbalance the class, and both cities have plenty opportunity for a fence to practice them. I doubt many will mind to see poisoning get snipped from their skillset, and likewise peek/steal just aren't viable at those low levels.

Advanced steal and peek are fine for stealing coins from NPCs.

By the time your fence has both skills at advanced, you're not out there stealing the paltry coin NPCs carry. This holds doubly true now that the night is pitch black 80% of the time inside both cities.

It seems like the ones proposed are just a hugely buffed fighter, and then nerfed enforcer, raider, infiltrator somewhat molded into assassin, miscreant, pilferer given the old pickpocket poor loadout, and then scout, stalker nerfed.

It seems rather lopsided, and a return to the old classes. '

Prefer the current system.

If it wanted to be trimmed, there could be a couple classes melded together. Stalker/Scout, Pilferer/Miscreant, Laborer/Craftsperson.

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on June 25, 2022, 05:16:13 PM
Advanced steal and peek are fine for stealing coins from NPCs.

Throw in half decent hide, and it's good against players too.

Old Burglar only had Adv. Steal. And I picked ALL YALL'S pockets.

I am sitting here looking at "Agent 47" And thinking back to some of the past powerhouse assassins...And wondering if any of those players are still about and would like to chime in with what they could do with that skillset. Without a sub even.

second look at melee crafter, Soldier with crafting. viable with many clans and tribes, just pick a sub dependent on that...I mean, I admit, I would likely pick a scan sub, but would depend on my intent.

I also cannot help but wonder if many of the people that are dead set against this idea have also noticed that all of these classes actually make the current magick subs viable. It is no secret I consider most of the magick subs not viable at best. But I could see any of them working with any of these proposed classes...and working well.

I would flatten pick/pick making for Criminal Maker only.

Force Agent 47 and Sticky Fingers to seek out criminal makers for picks. Knowing how to use a tool doesn't make one understand how to make them. It also tightens the funnel for picks and where they come from.

As currently listed, Agent 47 branches both pick and pick making from sleight of hand, which is a very low risk skill to train to master. I would venture that at minimum, they should branch pick making at a high skill of pick, or need to rely on fences/Criminal Makers to get them their illegal goods.

QuoteKnowing how to use a tool doesn't make one understand how to make them

Um...yes, it does.

I started learning smithcraft 40 years ago, I did so with tools purchased...my best hammers and tongs are the ones I made myself.

My best rakes and picks are also ones I made or designed myself and contracted others to make.

Knowing how to use a tool is EXACTLY what it takes to design/make a good tool.

Hell, My power hammer, Forge and press are all my own design and craft.

I mean ALL craftsmen make own tools, Farriers, roofers, mechanics...I mean ALL of them.

Quote from: Veselka on June 25, 2022, 11:21:06 PM


Force Agent 47 and Sticky Fingers to seek out criminal makers for picks. Knowing how to use a tool doesn't make one understand how to make them. It also tightens the funnel for picks and where they come from.

No. for a few reasons.

1: The picks you make at jman pick making are opening middle ranged doors only. So you are already seeking out criminal makers for picks that can actually open the doors you want to open, and don't break so quickly.

2: Without the ability to make their own picks, sticky fingers will essentially be pickpockets with extra skills. And no one really liked pickpockets. (i did, but beside the point)

3: We don't need to do a pick bottleneck again. It used to be REALLY bad. "Amos branched pick? kill him, he's moving in on my slice of the pie." (this used to be a meme for us, if you don't remember.)

I like things as they are with the diversity of having 15 guilds. It is much harder to meta what someone is.

Rather than toning it down to 9 guilds and upsetting a lot of the playerbase by taking away some things that people enjoy, I'd say focus on making the other guilds better. All of the recent changes I've liked, since you've already done this by adding scan and other things to guilds that very much deserved them. This has been well received. Even then, people will gravitate towards the "best" of the skillsets because that's what they generally want to do rather than be a jack of trades.

Here is what I propose:
1) Buff Soldier, giving it a low master in weapon skills.
2) *Nerfs to Miscreants*: make parry branch from throw, make pick branch from steal, make sneak branch from hide, and for the love of all that's holy, reduce their forage to Journeyman. Remove miscreant brewing.
3) Return Customcrafts to All who get "Master" proficiency in a skill, allowing craftperson/adventurer/Pilferer to contribute to game items and mastercrafts
4) Give Stalker Low Master Bow Use
5) Give Laborer Master Pilot, Give Laborer Skinning that branches from Forage, Give Laborer a mount skill

While we're never getting rangers back, Miscreant is like the new "City Ranger." They get everything they need to succeed and then some. They're overdue for nerfs, and anyone who says otherwise likely enjoys playing a powerful inventory elementalist miscreant. Even right out the box, their potential to troll and PK is vast in the hands of a decent, knowledgeable player.

Rather than take classes and things away, I'd rather see mostly positive changes that'd make the current guilds more playable and appealing to all, and have a few more branches or appealing skills to the bunch we have. I do love that this has been opened to the public discussion and realm of talks, and I think we'd always benefit from listening to what players like and dislike about certain aspects of the game and why.

I like some of the current propositioned, especially with the sticky fingers and master melee, yet I'd like to hear more proposals on how to make the "Least Played Options" of the existing classes better and consider that instead of reducing to 9.

I want to add that the reason I'm suggesting so many penalties to Miscreants is they've completely changed the game dynamic. No one even gets apartments in Allanak anymore. Look at how many places are open in the Gaj and in the other housing. It's desolate, and you know why? They're basically places to put stuff in that you want to disappear.

That's an unfun mechanic that hasn't really added much to the game world. With the current ease of access to picks from fence, and other things, it's no problem getting your hands on the criminal tools you need to succeed.

If we keep the current arrangement, fence *must* be changed to be more like criminal maker, and there needs to be "gates" in the way of Miscreant so they can't just immediately pop in and start housewrecking. Please consider this.

Fewer classes are the way to go for new players. Staff idea for 9 classes is exactly right!

It's called the "rule of 3" which is: unless you want someone hopelessly confused, offer no more than 3 options.

If you combined the rule of three, with an automatic generator for description and background, then curious people can get their feet wet without drowning.

So 3 origins, 3 focuses = nine classes
Then at character creation give the first three options:

Adventurer - citizen - criminal
Type help adventurer for more information.

Violence - environment - trade
Type help violence for more information

When they type help here are examples of house to explain it.

Do you want a wilderness character who will likely die, but you'll have fun? This would involve being outdoors, dangerous travel, and exploration.

Do you want a sneaky criminal character who will likely die, but you'll have fun? This involves being able to participate in theft, murder,  espionage or smuggling. Your character can be a grubby pickpocket, or by dressing well appear like any other person. In Armageddon, nobody can guess your class by looking at you.

Do you want a city character who will likely die but have fun? This class is the one to pick if you want the very best skills for success in city life. If you're interested in political intrigue, City wide plots, and maximum involvement with the most active clans. Of the three, citizens have the easiest time of survival.

Do you want a character who uses violence as their chief tool of survival, having this advantage above the rest?

Do you want a character who is a master of their environment, surviving by their surroundings and their wit?

Do you want a character who uses trade and bringing people together? Making things with unique designs and recipes.

Quote from: zealus on June 21, 2022, 08:47:56 PM
... with the exception that I would greatly like custom crafting to be more widely available. I'd love for it to be possible at multiple skill-levels, too, as I adore shitty little Jman level crafts in the theme of the game :)

I wouldn't because more widely available means more work.  We have an INSANE amount of objects already in the game, more variety than you'll ever want.  There's also systems in place to customize items like those NPC's in Allanak where you can specify color, material, etc.  IMO we don't need more custom crafting than we already have.

Quote from: X-D on June 26, 2022, 12:48:25 AM

QuoteKnowing how to use a tool doesn't make one understand how to make them

Um...yes, it does.

I started learning smithcraft 40 years ago, I did so with tools purchased...my best hammers and tongs are the ones I made myself.

My best rakes and picks are also ones I made or designed myself and contracted others to make.

Knowing how to use a tool is EXACTLY what it takes to design/make a good tool.

Hell, My power hammer, Forge and press are all my own design and craft.

I mean ALL craftsmen make own tools, Farriers, roofers, mechanics...I mean ALL of them.

Yes it can, which is the important distinction. They /can/ make their own tools. That doesn't necessarily mean they do. I applaud you being a smith and having the know how to make all those things.

As a craftsperson myself, I don't know how to make a chisel, but I use them every day. I don't know how to make a cast-iron C clamp, but I use it every day. I don't know how to build a guitar, but I repair them every day.

I /could/ learn how to make them, but just because I'm very skilled in using tools doesn't mean I have the know how to make them.

From a game balance standpoint, it would also make sense to not have every criminal class have/branch pick making and pick, but to separate them somewhat. Some get both. Some get one or the other.

Sigh. The idea is already suggesting removing enforcer, there is no reason to gimp the combat potential of the infiltrator to third rate on top of that. There are some of us who like to play criminal classes that don't  plan on backstabing/sapping every second aide we see. It was one of the selling points of infiltrators that they would have an easier time in other roles other than just killing merchant.

Instead of agent, consider the role/name of melee killer or just dirty fighter.

At the very least there is no reason agent should only have journeyman bash, if anything you should give them high advance bash and give hunter melee high advance kick. Either raise agent's combat skills like two handed, parry and dual wield to melee hunter levels, or set melee hunter (and agent) combat skills levels back down to infiltrator/scout rate. In terms of straight fights warrior will always win thanks to disarm alone, even more so if you plan on melee hunter and agent learning at light combat class levels of learning, I think it should be fine keeping straight combat ability roughly equal for both. Its not like agent will perform as well as melee hunter with max ride/charge in the wilderness.  Not to mention future changes to poison may make advanced forage/ max skin much more valuable.

Agents should also branch the watch skill to advanced rather than the search skill, feels like searching for stuff like passage ways would be more miscreant domain where as agents would be watching their targets.

Finally, for agent consider setting the class stat bonuses to both strength and agility. That way its easier to play the class in more than one way, this will be especially helpful for those that enjoyed the enforcer style of class instead of agility based classes.

Quote from: Dresan on June 27, 2022, 11:47:25 PM
Sigh. The idea is already suggesting removing enforcer, there is no reason to gimp the combat potential of the infiltrator to third rate on top of that. There are some of us who like to play criminal classes that don't  plan on backstabing/sapping every second aide we see. It was one of the selling points of infiltrators that they would have an easier time in other roles other than just killing merchant.

Instead of agent, consider the role/name of melee killer or just dirty fighter.

At the very least there is no reason agent should only have journeyman bash, if anything you should give them high advance bash and give hunter melee high advance kick. Either raise agent's combat skills like two handed, parry and dual wield to melee hunter levels, or set melee hunter (and agent) combat skills levels back down to infiltrator/scout rate. In terms of straight fights warrior will always win thanks to disarm alone, even more so if you plan on melee hunter and agent learning at light combat class levels of learning, I think it should be fine keeping straight combat ability roughly equal for both. Its not like agent will perform as well as melee hunter with max ride/charge in the wilderness.  Not to mention future changes to poison may make advanced forage/ max skin much more valuable.

Agents should also branch the watch skill to advanced rather than the search skill, feels like searching for stuff like passage ways would be more miscreant domain where as agents would be watching their targets.

Finally, for agent consider setting the class stat bonuses to both strength and agility. That way its easier to play the class in more than one way, this will be especially helpful for those that enjoyed the enforcer style of class instead of agility based classes.

Very valid point. Enforcer honestly freels like a pretty healthy class for places like the rinth.

Staff are really good at their job. They won't gimp anything

honestly. After talking it over, i like our classes. The subs need to be adjusted, absolutely. And new 1 karma options put in to replace that utility.

But yeah. I dig our setup mostly.

role based guilds is inherently bad because it requires the designer of the guilds to preconceive every possible role and then fit them all into a small finite number of guilds

the current guilds allow players to imagine what they would need to do as a specific role and then pick a guild+sub combination to match and encourage a lot of creativity.

here's a few fun combinations:
raider+slipknife in the rinth
scout+master armorcrafter
laborer + grebber/outdoorsman

I've been very quiet here, considering how much I rant about classes.  I still have very little in the way of -specifics-, which might be what you're after.  But the reason I've been quiet is because the last couple weeks, my time spent on Armageddon has had some...hiccups in my traditional way of thought, because it's essentially too 'closed' and demanding too much of my own way.  With that in mind, I've kind of had a change of heart regarding classes.  Not as in 'I love them the way they are', but in the way I am analyzing them.  Sorry, Brokkr (in particular, but also anyone else I've been engaging heatedly about it), for all my aggression with it.

You have two threads up.  This is meant to reply to both of them.  My realization is that I don't actually hate the classes themselves, but I hate the way that the interaction of class/subclass goes.  If I can try to describe a concept, this is kind of the way that I think I'd actually be really pleased, without having to revert classes entirely to role-based.

My problem with the new classes has been that they're just so chock-full of skills.  They blur the lines between roles, which may or may not be bad.  They make a lot of subclasses redundant.  They make the choices pretty easy to meta-out, and not actually that...interesting.  So here is my idea of how classes, as they are, could be changed to try and accomplish the same thing as role-based classes presented here (which I still approve of and generally like the ideas talked about in this thread):

Top level classes (i.e. combat heavy):  Remove or greatly lower the cap of the utility skills, i.e. sneak/hide, hunt, etc.  But keep the combat-skills oriented with it.  For Enforcer, that would mean low sneak, probably no hide, but keeping sap and backstab at high levels, as well as the criminal-like weapon based combat skills.  Overall, this IS a nerf to the main class.  I believe most main classes would be nerfed.  For Raider, that would mean low sneak or no sneak, probably no hide, but high charge/trample, high throw, middling archery, etc.
Middle combat classes (i.e. infiltrator, scout):  Middle of the road, of course.  They get higher caps on utility skills, lower caps on combat skills, do not receive as many combat skills, and receive utility-crafting related to their area.  Each of them also loses one entire weapon skill, i.e. Infiltrator loses chopping weapons, scout loses slashing weapons, etc.  They are the balance.
Low combat classes (i.e. Miscreant, stalker):  High utility skills.  All of the utility skills involved in their area.  They only have 2 weapon skills.  Their combat is more based around preparation and indirect combat than direct combat.  That means stalker doesn't have charge and trample, but they do have high archery.  That means miscreant doesn't have backstab or sap, but they do have high throw and poisoning.  This tier likely branches parry instead of starting with it.
Crafting classes:  Middling utility skills (enough to be useful, though).  All the crafting skills in their area, and even a couple from outside of their area.  They receive -1- weapon skill, capping in middling journeyman (which is high enough for most pve, but not to be beasts).  All of them should be able to custom craft, but with some bigger limitations than the custom crafter.  They also ALL receive the tools they would need for travel, regardless of criminal or desert.  These guys can always get around, they will always be able to find a place to sell goods.  They are never 'stuck' in their area.

There are, of course, a myriad of other skills to discuss in specifics, but again, this is more about concept.  If both players AND staff like this sort of thing, then I could go into nitpicky detail, but right now, I'm thinking...more conceptually, than anything. 

You'll also notice I wasn't discussing the city/general classes; I always get a little weirded out by this column, honestly, because most roles in the game are pretty strictly either city or desert.  So that was what I was thinking for this column; make it the only one non-specialized for either.  They do not lose weapon skills as they go down the tiers; they are just generally -better- at combat.  They receive no sneaks or hides, but they -always- have skinning and direction sense, as well as either scan or listen or both.  They -always- have crafting skills that are pertinent to sustaining themselves.  -Only- the custom crafter truly custom crafts, and -only- the custom crafter gets -all- of those desirable crafting skills that any clan would want.

The goal here is not just to nerf things.  I know that nerfs always upset people.  But what I'm looking for is the choice of subclass to be a much larger deal.  Those top tier combat classes lost their utility, so Enforcers would probably very often take something like slipknife, or cutpurse, or rogue...but they don't -have- to.  They could just want the heavy city combat skills, but take a riding subclass, or a wilderness subclass, or a crafter subclass.  Maybe the dune trader would take aggressor so that they have slashing weapons, or they might cross-craft by taking a criminal crafting subclass, or be their tribe's chef, etc.  The goal is that to truly be -specialized and fully competent in all areas of their column-, you will require both class and subclass to be within that area (as opposed to now; despite different skill caps, all of the classes in a column are completely competent in their area, and the main difference comes in player versus player interactions or starting combat levels).

I hope that makes sense.  I'm always rambly.  But this has been pretty steadily on my mind the last few days, about how hard I've been pushing for the role-based classes despite how many people like the new ones, when really all I'm looking for is for the class/subclass combo to be both -necessary- AND versatile.

Edited to add:  I wanted to note, one consistent thought I had through all this...it would be really -good- if we had armor proficiencies to create definition in these areas.  Light armor allows for agility to take a greater impact in combat.  Medium armor is versatile, allowing for bonuses to utility skills.  Heavy armor reduces encumbrance of worn heavy armors.  Something along those lines.  You'd be able to see a lot different combinations made based off of those decisions.  Imagine how different it would be if ONLY the general column could receive heavy armor proficiency, and how that would make competition via subclasses for characters to choose from.  Imagine how much more appealing it could be for a heavy general combat class to be able to compete with the heavy combat for both desert and city based off of subclass by just being the real actual -tank- of combat.

Also to note, I realize that the above is largely very similar to what we've already done with these classes, but I'm trying to pound in that definition.  Lots of it is based around the prevalence or complete absence of scan, listen, sneak, hide, and for many, direction sense.  A lot of it is me saying 'Don't even let them have that.  That's a subclass decision for that class, not a thing they just get because it fits in.'  Basically, extremize each of these classes into their niche of their area, rather than blurring it.

The current classes might have gone too far but that doesn't mean the proposed idea is the best solution to that problem.

The wilderness classes in particular are really amazing, this is compounded by the fact that there were multiple good subclasses they could choose from to round themselves off completely. Slipknife, cutpurse and rogue were solid choices. This is not even mentioning any magickal subclass. In comparison the city classes solider and fighter struggled from day one. It was not like fighter was bad but compared to the raider with utility like ride, climb, scan,charge  it didn't come even close.  Enforcer is in a worse spot, basically if you wanted to get the most out of enforcer you needed to pick bounty hunter/cutpurse which you lose a lot of additional utility, otherwise its up to chance whether you'll ever branch sap/backstab. Infiltrator was gimped as well until they recently buffed them. Wilderness is a heavy part of this game, that many popular clans partake in and the option for ride are basically vanilla compared to city subclass options.

Thus, its no surprise to me raiders, stalkers, miscreants are very popular. This is an RP game that takes a lot of time and effort to squeeze out some enjoyment from, and that enjoyment for your effort invested is not even guaranteed. The game doesn't always respect the time the players invest in it.  People don't just min-max to to win armageddonmud, they do it so that can have a chance to have the most fun, coded power and/or utility is just one of the ways to ensure you get the most out of your time investment.

My main problem with the proposed ideas is that it goes too far in the opposite direction, narrowing the scope of what classes can do while at the same time not really seeming to take into account options the game world offers players. For example, sticky finger combat is nerfed compared to miscreant, it makes it much harder to play a miscreant in the byn with a riding class or in one of the many combat clans in the game that goes out riding as part of its activities. That a huge loss compared to the current miscreant. Bow hunter lost blow_gun use meaning even if they pick a city subguild they have a harder time playing the part of assassin, like we currently can.

And to be fully clear, by loss I mean less variety and fun for players to experience.   There just has to be a better way to balance these classes that provide more than just one way of playing them. This is why I would rather keep the classes we currently have, despite its obvious faults, because there is a lot more variety and replay value in them.  There is also good chance things will not work as intended when this is first implemented, and it took such a long time for infiltrators to get buffed because staff refused to acknowledge that people don't like to invest hours and hours of our time just to lose our character because of sub-par stealth.

All that said, the only thing i really want to see implemented in apprentice direction sense for every class but there is another thread for that.

as someone who did not play old classes, i am fine with the classes as they are. sub guilds need more work than main guilds. just because a few of the main classes aren't used as often doesn't mean anything is broken.

I've played maybe two fighters. I'll probably play another at some point. I've thought about playing adventurer, and I probably will at some point. I don't like crafting so I don't play the crafters but if I did I'd probably try them out eventually, as I've been through the heavy, light, and 'utility' combat classes. It's good to have options.

A way bigger problem to me as a newbie was just the names of them making it confusing as hell. Like do I have to be a bounty hunter to have bounty hunter? If I pick raider does that mean I'm a raider? I started and stopped a few times.

I have looked over the proposal, and made an excel file for it:
( https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/304236792750538752/992143402995028128/New_Classes_Proposal.xlsx )
::NOTE - mistake in spreadsheet, I forgot to add THROW to stickyfingers ::


I'm approaching the overall design of the classes from this principal:
(https://i.imgur.com/UFDAfi0.png)
And from the Assumption that Melee Hunter is a mixture of "Raider/Scout" and Agent 47 is a mixture of "Enforcer/Infiltrator", and Tribal Maker is a mixture of "Adventurer/Dune Trader" and Criminal Maker is a mixture of "Pilferer/Fence".


Let's get started!

Melee Master should get Bandagemaking, because they know how to take care of their own body.  They should also get the pain tolerance perk.

Agent 47 seems okay.  Maybe pain tolerance perk?

Melee Hunter should have Crossbow Use at advanced.  They get up close to animals, and should be able to shoot them with a crossbow.
Melee Hunter should get Threaten at advanced.  They are the old 'Raiders', basically.
Melee Hunter poisoning should be advanced from journeyman.

Stickyfingers should have Crossbow Use at advanced.  They would use crossbows to poison people with their bolts from the same room, or one room away, but they wouldn't use archery.
Stickyfingers should have Throw at advanced.  Same reason as Crossbow Use. I made a mistake in my spreadsheet, and it does get throw.
Stickyfingers should have Scan at master, since they are experts at hiding, they should know how to look for people that are hiding.   I hated Burglar so much because it didn't have scan.  Hated it.
Stickyfingers should have Brew at journeyman, since they have poisoning at journeyman.  Brew allows you to detect the basic ingredients of most cures, which is super important for poisoning.
Stickyfingers should have pick making at Advanced.  When pick making is at journeyman, you fail 8 out of 10 crafts.

Bow Hunter should have Blowgun Use.   It goes with the theme of hunting beasts in the wilderness and sneaking up on them.
Bow Hunter should have Search.  None of the "wilderness" classes have "Search" except tribal maker, and that was a push from the playerbase to get it added to the 'explorer' playerstypes.

Melee Crafter should have Guarding, because it's missing from a 'soldier' type character - which would be melee hunter/melee master/bow hunter.  Why does bow hunter have guarding if melee crafter doesn't?

Criminal Maker should have Flee at Journeyman, because Tribal Maker has it at Advanced, and both need to run away somewhat successfully.
Criminal Maker should have Piercing Weapons at Apprentice, because they know how to use a knife in a pinch.
Criminal Maker should have Climb at Advanced instead of Apprentice, because Pilferer used to have it at Advanced.

Tribal Maker should have Crossbow Use at Journeyman.  It's an underused skill overall, and I liked how everybody gets it currently.
Tribal Maker should have Piercing Weapons at Apprentice, because they know how to use a spear in a pinch.
Tribal Maker should have Climb at Advanced instead of Apprentice, because Adventurer had it at Advanced.

Faire Maker should have Piercing Weapons at Apprentice, because they would know how to use a knife.  They do have skinning now, so they know the basics of stabby stabby.

IDC that much if sticky fingers lose scan. (it's nice don't get me wrong)

But the lose of Hunt is absolutely brutal.

Stickyfingers looks pretty bad overall, they lose to a miscreant in every way.

They also, absolutely need scan. They're experts at city hide (however you visualize or roleplay that - blending in, hiding in plain sight, hiding behind a curtain), but they're somehow, at the same time, completely oblivious to someone else doing that? That would just be odd and ridiculous.

Melee master bandage making, No, Bandage at better then average is fine, Making, Take a sub, or get a friend.
Pain Tol perk, sure. And again, I would take all ranged skills other then throw from them. BUT, I would give them even higher parry and shield skill.


Sticky fingers does need Hunt...I mean that is a basic skill for that type and not having it is a MAJOR nerf, IMO.
High scan, I am fine with as well.
Crossbow...No, Sub if you want it.

Melee hunter On the other hand, I do not think should get any of the suggestions...This is something that if you wanted some of them, There are subs, or get a friend.
In fact, As I said before, I would take archery off of melee hunter, along with fletchery and sling and instead give them a high level sap, Maybe just a few below Agent.
So, remove any ranged skill other then throw, also remove fletchery, Give low master sap and maybe master blowgun and My bet is this class will be in the top 3 taken.

Bow hunter.....Search...sure.
Blowgun...Um...On one hand, because it is such a weak skill, I think Alright...But on the other hand, I am not really seeing it as thematic. I would be more agreeable to melee hunter getting blowgun since it is an up close and personal skill.

I am fine with all the maker suggestions from Mansa.

(EDIT)

Also, we should be looking at how these classes compliment each other along with go against each other.

Back in the day, a good ranger would have a good warrior friend, A good assassin would often have a burgler friend.
Thinking of these things is why I am less likely to give skills that cross lines or make a class too good.

I would rather have you make a choice. Do you want bandage making and not need a medic buddy OR do you want to fling lightning bolts?

I like your diagram mansa. I think people are too fixated with old definitions of combat, ranged attacks and poison. Poison in particular may change in the future.

1. On the topic of Melee combat

To start us off we'll begin with what Melee master should be getting:
- Old heavy combat levels of combat learning
-Only class that gets disarm
-str and endurance class bonuses at creation
-highest levels of melee combat skills (eg parry, shield_use, etc)

Max level Disarm alone makes this class freaking impossible to beat 1v1, even with sap or backstab its still a potential hail mary play to try to kill these guys with high priority endurance. It doesn't matter if second tier classes get advanced level disarm fom a subclass or even low master combat skill, at some point that becomes useless against a melee master, not even taking into account its greater ability to learn. Thus:

• Agent and Melee hunter should have similar levels of combat ability and learning speed, at light combat class levels or higher. It doesn't matter if they are low master or high advanced, they won't be better than melee master as long as they don't get MAX level disarm. They each have their own areas of strength which the other can't compete in easily.


• Melee hunter should get low master ripose and hack branching off parry or something simple enough to train to compliment max level ride/charge.


• Melee hunter shouldn't get bash, but they should get kick at high advance levels


• Agent should get high advanced bash


• Melee combat for sticky fingers/bow hunter/melee crafter should be similar to miscreant/stalker/laborer

2. On the topic of ranged combat.

There is short ranged combat and long ranged combat. Melee master should be the worse off in ranged combat, light combat classes should be the best at short ranged combat and mixed classes should be good at long ranged combat.

• Melee master should be poor at both, only having high advanced throw, crossbow and archery.
• Agent should get low master crossbow use while Melee hunter would get low master archery
• Both Agent and Melee hunter would get MAX level throw
• Agent would get MAX blow_gun use
• sticky fingers would MAX crossbow_use while bow hunter would get Max archery
• Both sticky fingers and bow hunter would get high advanced blowgun_use and throw

3. On the topic of poisons.

Again poisons may change in the future. The ability to apply poisons will not necessarily trump the ability to acquire them. Wilderness classes should have an easier time getting poison, but harder time applying it.

Thus:

• Both agent MAX poison, sticky fingers should get low master poison
• melee hunter low advanced poison while bow hunter should get high advanced poison
• melee hunter and bow hunter should high MAX levels of forage and skin making it easier to acquire poison, while criminal classes have easier time applying it
• On brew, sticky fingers should get Max Master brew, bow hunter low master and agent high advanced (these value would be the same if we get poison making)

Finally I agree with sticky fingers getting hunt, but I want to see agent geta high levels of watch.

Dresan.

Nice post over all...I am a bit more drastic than you on many points but otherwise agree.

Cept for the disarm part. While disarm is a powerful skill, it is an activate skill. And WAY WAY less useful then getting a 5-10 point raise to max parry and shield. (above fighter or warrior, whichever was higher)
To truly make somebody a "melee master"

In fact, Because of activate skills costing stam, I would only want those skills higher if I could turn them off. Nothing worse then not being eble to flee because disarm reverses chewed up all your stam.

If you do not include your reasoning, I have no idea what you are going for.

Sticky fingers as an example.  I positioned them as a great thief.  Not a killer.  In any sense.  Not up close, not through poisons, etc.  If you start giving them killer skills without reasoning or at least saying something like they should not be completely thief but xxxx, then I have no real idea what you are ultimately going for with suggestions.

Keep in mind with something like Sticky Fingers the intent is fairly obviously to not have them be the city ranger that miscreant currently is.

Quote from: X-D on June 30, 2022, 05:54:37 PM
Dresan.

Peace.

As long as melee combat potential remains the same between Agent and Melee hunter then I am not as concerned with how they stack up to the melee superiority of melee master. I would be very much okay with Agent and Melee hunter having Infiltrator/scout levels of melee combat skill, which seemed fairly reasonable compared to heavy class melee potential.

I like your disarm toggle idea, it would also help when training people with less skill then you.

fewer guilds will inherently limit the amount of good options available to players, I am opposed to this change

Quote from: Lotion on June 30, 2022, 06:58:05 PM
fewer guilds will inherently limit the amount of good options available to players, I am opposed to this change

Quotefewer guilds will inherently limit the amount of good options available to players, I am opposed to this change

You are both wrong.

Firstly...The options remain the same. RP game.

You could reduce it to one guild and the options remain the same. RP game

Close Red storm, now your options are reduced. One less spot to RP....you know, RP game.

Next, Let us talk about what you want, I want to make a PC with a bunch of skills and can get along anywhere and never be good. Current has many options there, they are all the same in value IMO, Proposed ALSO has a few options...Oh wait, no, actually even those options will get good at something.

Also, with say 9 main guilds, which is what...4 less then now? And still more then 24 subs? So, 180+ combinations is not enough?


Dresan: Agreed there.

Brokkr: And this is why I have a problem with at least melee master, bow hunter and melee hunter. There is too much crossover between the three...and even Agent.

Especially with melee hunter.

Alright, lets put in high end wilderness skills. That is great, But you lose niche when you give them too much melee and too much ranged, weakening Bow hunter and melee master. OR just making melee hunter a no take because you can take bow hunter with a melee sub or melee master with a wilderness sub.
Meanwhile haveing melee master having master skills not having anything to do with melee.

While You point out that sticky fingers is supposed to be THE thief, a point I am quite happy with. And even Agent has a nice niche. The overlap in the two hunters and melee master blurs the niche alot and that is before subs.

I think much can be done there though.

Bow hunter, Yes, max all the ranged skills, poison, brew etc, Also the actual wilderness skills. Maxed ride,(but low charge and trample) maxed flee, lower hide and sneak.

BUT no better then scout level combat and reduce to 2 weapon skills.

Meanhile, Melee hunter, No ranged other then throw, maybe advanced sling. Lower ride but max charge and trample, all 4 weapon skills, high parry and shield, But not as high as melee master, Good rescue and guard, Good poison, but not as high as Bow hunter, All the actual wilderness skills, max hide and sneak And something that actually sets them apart, I think Sap is a good choice long as it is high enough...No silly low advanced.

Melee master, Make them just that, Make it so that in melee, a 20 day master laughs at anything less then him/her Raise parry and shield so that ranged against them has low success, So that your choice is to either engage or run. Master throw, No other ranged skills at all.

...now this just looks like more of the same to me.

Quote from: Armaddict on June 30, 2022, 08:18:37 PM
...now this just looks like more of the same to me.

Yeah.

At this point, just fix pilferer and fighter. When you have great guilds that everyone loves the instinct always seems to be to split those up and bring them down to the level of the guilds people like less. Like what happened to ranger, which got split up between Scout and Stalker, which are two different but ultimately weaker versions of Ranger.

I still think 15 classes is too much. I also think we need to do away with "names" and just call them things like "city combat" "criminal combat" "wasteland combat" "wasteland survialist" "criminal survivalist" etc, so players don't get fixated on 'themes" that are suggested by the classes and just look at the skills those classes have.

Condense to 12 or 9 classes yes. But the suggestions I've seen so far leave me feeling wholly underwhelmed.

Hopefully this weekend I'll actually have time (and the spoons) to write up my own suggestions.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 30, 2022, 06:14:49 PM
Keep in mind with something like Sticky Fingers the intent is fairly obviously to not have them be the city ranger that miscreant currently is.

I really don't like the idea of significantly narrowing the scope of versatility of classes to simple roles. I sincerely believe you are heading towards a cliff, at the very least it'll be harder to balance and make changes later without going against your own design.

However, even by your own logic what you propose makes no sense. You wanted to make sticky fingers a thief but you still gave them throw, poison, blow_gun use.

From a playability, roleplay and balance point of view I could easily defend and justify what I have proposed. Even max crossbow_use is in line with many interpretations of a thief often being good at long range attacks without really making them killers but still just tools of the trade (see the link below for an interpretation of a GOOD thief).

However, I think all that effort would be moot, because it feels like the intent is not just to make a thief, but to make a class so narrow in scope that it becomes as unpopular and rare as the soldier. I don't think its going to make people want to come back to tavern though unlike the tavern sparring idea. :)

@Delirium Agreed on the names. I think there would be always some level of overlap but classes would still have specialties and unique abilities without compromising versatility. I would be interested in seeing what you propose to further remove the overlap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GySn6_aclAM

Am still thinking that the current strata we have currently is better. It makes characters much more egalitarian but with differing strengths.

There's just a majority of nerfs to a lot of very viable and fun classes that I don't see much of an upside for.

Quotereally don't like the idea of significantly narrowing the scope of versatility of classes to simple roles. I sincerely believe you are heading towards a cliff.

That cliff is actually in front of versatility, not leaving it behind.  Once again, think of it in terms of a more classic RPG.  Imagine using a point-buy system for stats in it.  Imagine realizing that you could only have one 18 attribute skill, which you're fine with, but it then leaves you with all your attributes at 10, with one 12.  Rather than acknowledge that you should probably drop that 18 down to a 17, 16, 15, or even 14, you stick with that need to be that good at that thing, but everything else instead needs to go up.  So the DM agrees.  You raise the number of points, allowing you have 2 18's now, but then the rest are still 10's.  So you again complain at the DM, saying you need more points.  Over time, this results in your character being totally badass, indeed, and you love it, and wouldn't dream of it any other way.  But now the DM cannot reliably create meaningful encounters.  Everyone passes all skill checks.  You don't even really -need- the party unless you find a way for these uber characters to fight each other, or you make uber-characters in return.  Challenges of the world aren't really challenges unless you make them outrageously so.

We -really really- need to realize that the solution to classes was never to raise more stats to 18.  All it did was remove our need to form parties, while simultaneously freeing up subclass options by making the majority of them redundant for each class (it changes from class to class which ones are redundant, at least).  We have a bunch of characters that travel more easily (which contributes to the interaction problem just as much as allowing the 'quest for interaction' that Dresan had problems with in the sandstorm thread).  We have a bunch of characters that don't have any real reason to risk true alliances.  We have a bunch of characters that are super badass and get more and more badass at the cost of the world they're a badass in.  It's not a good thing.  No matter how good that may feel on the individual level to just be able to -do- things, it's not a recipe for a multiplayer game at all.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 30, 2022, 06:14:49 PM
If you do not include your reasoning, I have no idea what you are going for.

Sticky fingers as an example.  I positioned them as a great thief.  Not a killer.  In any sense.  Not up close, not through poisons, etc.  If you start giving them killer skills without reasoning or at least saying something like they should not be completely thief but xxxx, then I have no real idea what you are ultimately going for with suggestions.

Keep in mind with something like Sticky Fingers the intent is fairly obviously to not have them be the city ranger that miscreant currently is.

I've explained this a couple times. but you have a lot of info flying at you, so i'll explain why Sticky Fingers needs City Hunt.

City Hunt is very important for tracking which apartments have had recent traffic.

City Hunt is very important for following someone to their stash (Shadowing isn't always in your best interest)

City Hunt is very important for casing locations (how often are people actually coming in and out of the building, what paths do they take to their usual destination, how long are they gone for)

City Hunt Is Useful for Finding untraveled locations to stash in or train more secretive skills in


I used to use Assassins as Burglars back in the day, because of how useful Hunt is when stealing.

The PK centered one has C. hunt at Adv. This makes it very reliable for hunting people quickly.

I propose Sticky Fingers get C. Hunt at Journeyman, and that it branch off Listen, as it rounds out the rest of that part of the kit. (This will make it reliable to use, but not exactly fast. The thief will need o take time and care when he cases the target because it will likely take a couple tries)

Counter to your strawman of not wanting Sticky to be a new city ranger: You are nerfing the heck out of their combat ability. They will be using C.Hunt to AVOID combat, not start it.

Quote from: Fredd on June 30, 2022, 09:42:42 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on June 30, 2022, 06:14:49 PM
If you do not include your reasoning, I have no idea what you are going for.

Sticky fingers as an example.  I positioned them as a great thief.  Not a killer.  In any sense.  Not up close, not through poisons, etc.  If you start giving them killer skills without reasoning or at least saying something like they should not be completely thief but xxxx, then I have no real idea what you are ultimately going for with suggestions.

Keep in mind with something like Sticky Fingers the intent is fairly obviously to not have them be the city ranger that miscreant currently is.

I've explained this a couple times. but you have a lot of info flying at you, so i'll explain why Sticky Fingers needs City Hunt.

City Hunt is very important for tracking which apartments have had recent traffic.

City Hunt is very important for following someone to their stash (Shadowing isn't always in your best interest)

City Hunt is very important for casing locations (how often are people actually coming in and out of the building, what paths do they take to their usual destination, how long are they gone for)

City Hunt Is Useful for Finding untraveled locations to stash in or train more secretive skills in


I used to use Assassins as Burglars back in the day, because of how useful Hunt is when stealing.

The PK centered one has C. hunt at Adv. This makes it very reliable for hunting people quickly.

I propose Sticky Fingers get C. Hunt at Journeyman, and that it branch off Listen, as it rounds out the rest of that part of the kit. (This will make it reliable to use, but not exactly fast. The thief will need o take time and care when he cases the target because it will likely take a couple tries)

Counter to your strawman of not wanting Sticky to be a new city ranger: You are nerfing the heck out of their combat ability. They will be using C.Hunt to AVOID combat, not start it.

Thieving is very much p v p. Hunt is very much p v p. It's useful to know if you're being tracked, to check guard routes, to follow a mark when tailing them across the city... I 100% agree that hunt is incredibly valuable.

Quote from: Armaddict on June 30, 2022, 09:30:54 PM
That cliff is actually in front of versatility, not leaving it behind. 

I have mentioned that some of the current classes went too far, but the proposed solution goes too far in the opposite direction.

The world that rangers used to live in does not exist anymore. Hunting is no longer the most popular profession, skinning is no longer a money maker it used to be.  I know tuluk re-opened but the days of hunter indie paradise still feel long gone. You look at the south and its clans...byn, crimson wind, militia. You really aren't going to become a high paying aide or join a GMH to backstab/sap or to be a thief. 

Indies have been shit on through Rp , code , and policies for a very long time. The thought of narrowing the role of sticky fingers just to being thief while nerfing the orginal miscreant's already meger combat prowless, seems to forget that scripts and NPC were added to taverns to make their lives harder. Or that one of their potential homes is the rinth.

This no longer game where you need two versions of hunters and depending on the poison changes you might barely need one to be honest. 

Versitility just means being able to play a class in multiple ways. Every class can still have unique skills no one else has (or can only get at lower levels through subguilds). This will give every classtheir own flavor and perferred way of doing things. It doesn't mean you need to be amazing at everything but you can be really good at a couple of different things in different areas in different ways. Variety and replay value is good for the game. 

Also when I played rangers there were 72 people on average every night. I recommend the game continue to work to ensure its fun to play with just 15-20 people at peak,and be able to scale up from there. Even if you want people to need each other, not sure how well thats going to work when melee master/bandit or hunter will to be the choice that is probably going to work well with a number of clans available.

Lastly and most importantly, the idea is proposing the nerfing of some very popular classes and playstyles people are currently enjoying . That is a bold move which regardless of what 'good' intentions are behind it does not always sit well with people. Caution is needed, and perhaps a slower more methodical patient approach. 

Quote from: X-D on June 25, 2022, 10:10:00 PM
I am sitting here looking at "Agent 47" And thinking back to some of the past powerhouse assassins...And wondering if any of those players are still about and would like to chime in with what they could do with that skillset. Without a sub even.

second look at melee crafter, Soldier with crafting. viable with many clans and tribes, just pick a sub dependent on that...I mean, I admit, I would likely pick a scan sub, but would depend on my intent.

I also cannot help but wonder if many of the people that are dead set against this idea have also noticed that all of these classes actually make the current magick subs viable. It is no secret I consider most of the magick subs not viable at best. But I could see any of them working with any of these proposed classes...and working well.

I never had a problem with assassin. I could put a Long lived assassin to work on established classes back in the day.

It seems like the thread is drifting towards utility. I'm neutral on it. I could/would rock an original assassin if it were still an option frequently.

I believed for a long time needing other classes built synergy and inclusion in roleplay; This is hard to put a finger on.

After thinking on it, I am not a fan of narrowing player options.
Right now, there is a situation where I can make a PC, and decide to become whatever in the future. Maybe I'll decide a specialism, but often, especially with subguild none as an option, I'll be able to be flexible. This change seems to narrow the options. This might lead to some concepts stranding purely on availability of leaders. That would be, in my opinion, a big setback for the enjoyment of the game.

Quote from: zealus on July 01, 2022, 06:16:44 AM
After thinking on it, I am not a fan of narrowing player options.
Right now, there is a situation where I can make a PC, and decide to become whatever in the future. Maybe I'll decide a specialism, but often, especially with subguild none as an option, I'll be able to be flexible. This change seems to narrow the options. This might lead to some concepts stranding purely on availability of leaders. That would be, in my opinion, a big setback for the enjoyment of the game.

This. I can actually choose what kind of criminal I want to be, after I choose my class. So if i go into it feeling one way, and through rp need to adjust, i actually CAN.

Is miscreant strong? Yep. Does it need master poisoning? Nope, Adv. Blowguns, backstab and Sap? Not really no. But you thought it was a good idea, not us. We litterally told you it was super strong.

But we have them now, and we like it. Miscreant isn't even the trouble class. Raider/slipknife and other variations are the REAL pkers.

Every time you do a large overhaul you lose some of the playerbase. We are starting to regain some of that lost base. Do we really want to shake it up again?

Remove the extended subs. It's pointless to gatekeep new players concepts they may like to play. But let's leave the classes.

I wonder what some of you mean by "popular".

I mean, if you looked at my account you would see that I have a few scouts and a few infiltrators...And you could be like, "hey, he must like them." Which could not be farther from the truth. I take those two because they are the best of the worst. And 100% of the other players I know say basically the same thing.

So, you look at the game stats when Brokkr or Mansa puts them up and you see 4 to 1 miscreant/stalker/scout/infiltrator and Go, Wow, such popular classes...When really it is a matter of, the only game in town.

Since the new classes went in, Here is the rundown for me.

One Stalker, my first new class PC in fact. And for about 3 days I was like, Hey, this is not bad, By day 4 the shiny wore off and I started to see what a horrific class it is. When he died around day 24 I was rather relieved. Would never play one again.

One raider, Which I took basically for one single skill. Instead of enforcer or fighter. Yes, he became quite known and powerful and I stored him...would not take raider again.

One soldier, made it to I think 11 days played, asked for storage, ended up suiciding because it was taking too long, Would not take that class again.

Couple scouts and infiltrators...Not because I like them, I do not, but they are at least viable.

To date, None of the classes I have tried evoke even a tiny bit of replayablity. None are Hey, I wanna do that again someday.

Oddly though, All the legacy classes did, and did so over many years...for many hundreds of players. Something the current classes cannot even think to boast about.

Oh sure, they are all able to "get along" But they are good at mediocre "getting along" To the point that none of them actually need other PCs...and damm, they are all just so BORING. (Disclaimer) Other then Fighter, who is a buffed warrior and is not teabag IMO.

X-D, what was it you didn't like about those classes? Too many skills ("none of them actually need other PCs")? How the branches are set up, or the skill caps/rate advance ("BORING")?

XD is a "I like to kill stuff" player, while other players are "I like utility and don't need to be the best kill stuff" players.

The classes I would like to see should accommodate both playstyles (as well as the "I mostly like to craft but I'd like to not be immediately splatted by a scrab or gortok if I'm out foraging and can't find a PC friend" players).

Quote from: Dresan on July 01, 2022, 12:15:12 AM

Quote from: Armaddict on June 30, 2022, 09:30:54 PM
That cliff is actually in front of versatility, not leaving it behind. 

I have mentioned that some of the current classes went too far, but the proposed solution goes too far in the opposite direction.

This.

Quote from: Delirium on July 01, 2022, 12:56:26 PM

Quote from: Dresan on July 01, 2022, 12:15:12 AM

Quote from: Armaddict on June 30, 2022, 09:30:54 PM
That cliff is actually in front of versatility, not leaving it behind. 

I have mentioned that some of the current classes went too far, but the proposed solution goes too far in the opposite direction.

This.

QuoteXD is a "I like to kill stuff" player, while other players are "I like utility and don't need to be the best kill stuff" players.

You would be surprised.

I am actually a player that wants his PC to be able to rise to epic levels at whatever he does. Something that, other then fighter, no current class can do, not even the crafters. Hell, even in the OP proposal crafters still cannot come even close the the merchant of old.

Which, all of this gets me thinking.

I think that a few JOAT classes would actually make you people that like that sort of thing happy.

Easily done with the makers.

First, Change Faire maker to the one with the most crafting skills, Like, pretty much all of them. I see no reason to change the utility skills as they are not many and not strong anyway.

Then, The other three become the JOATS in area, So, Tribel, Melee and criminal, while keeping the crafting they have, Lose all crafting masteries, and then get base skills raised/added. That is basically the trade, You want master crafts on those then you take a master sub.

Meanwhile, Criminal maker, Good thief, not sticky fingers good, but good. Cannot compare with Agent at all when it comes to assassin things.

Melee maker becomes a slightly toned down soldier with extra crafting.

Tribal maker becomes a weaker stalker with extra crafting.

Also, Brytta. It is on many, too many skills, and no real "feel" to the class.
I would give up skills that max advanced or master but not max, to gain Max levels on skills.
But the "to many skills" Also is most of the reason that they do not need other PCs.

Let us use Stalker (before any changes) Firstly, it is a class that has no real feeling on what it is. Secondly, Yes, Stalker utility/survival was/is rather good. But what are they great at? Stealth. Anything to go with that? Nah.

And, again, other then fighter that is like every class. Well, some of them are even worse.

Quote from: X-D on July 01, 2022, 04:52:16 PM
Hell, even in the OP proposal crafters still cannot come even close the the merchant of old.

I am glad you brought this up, however, I feel the problem with merchant classes is not code wise, its policy.

This really deserves its own thread but I will simpify my ideas here:

Gear/items including bonuses and stats should be standardized across the board which would work as follows:

• Level 0 - Low Quality - made by: crafter subclass, merchant classes, cheap shops  ---example:weapons found on the rinth or newbie crafter items
• Level 1 - Decent Quality - made by: crafter subclass, merchant classes, normal shops, GMH ---example:Bone swords and yellow sandy armor
• Level 2- Good Quality- Made by: merchant classes, GMH ---example: camo gear, +skill gear, +dam weapons +parry gear,etc
• Level 3- Remarkable quality- Made by GMH ---example: ruby encrusted claymore of doom.

In addition:

• There would be a help file for merchants just like help files exist for mages to explain gear and items properties
• Players would have the option of buying stuff from GMH or merchant classes
• GMH would make their money from contracts with militia and other clans and houses. As well as selling rare and expensive stuff (level 3) to nobles and important people not by selling level 2 stuff to random hunters/mercenaries. They would not be intimidated by merchant crafters selling to players
• This would help aliviate some of the burn out in GMH where they are responsible for everyone's gear/stuff and give merchants a more important place in the world where they could create small houses
• Value skill would help determine the quality of an item while merchants would also be able to tell you what the item actually does for you thanks to help files they can only access
• Merchants could still create some custom items within level 2 range of standardized stuff (basically unique description but not overpowered)

There is also a question about buying safety and uses of money but again this all deserves its own thread.

Faire Maker has all crafting skills, at master, except 2.  And they have gained one that Merchant did not have.  Which makes me a little bit confused by your feedback.  What are they missing, that merchant had, other than skin?

Gear is now loosely standardized, mostly.  Weapons still need to be looked at some day. Worn items though are mostly done, including MC crafts and their bonuses.

Brokkr,

Will you have a (published) second pass of suggested changes before you decide to implement it, based on the feedback you've received?

The feedback on guilds looks fairly mixed at this point.  I would probably do a pass again with Staff to digest the feedback and how it impacts our thoughts on a course.  Unless that comes out as do nothing, I would expect to be back with revisions.

Overall my interpretation is that the support for the subclass proposal is not as mixed and overall largely in support, at least conceptually.  Still need to talk to other Staff, but I think that would incline us to work on that first.  I would need to look over the feedback for those again.  I think there is an entire subclass missing.  The Mastery suggestion also had mixed reviews, so likely redoing Roughrider, looking for things that make sense to tweak based on feedback for other subclasses, etc.  Then pitching it back out here.

The boosted stuff also got mixed reviews on whether to do something like that, although going off memory the support seems to be more for a class rather than a subclass option.  But the strength of that also seems a bit murky.  Understandable, seems like people have different end goals.  So subclasses likely to take a priority over decision making on this as well.

Brokkr, I had not itemized all the craft skills so I had just assumed they were missing some crafts is all.

So, they are fine, But the suggestion for the other 3 still works.

Faire already has the ability to become an epic maker, Let the other three not have that ability and instead improve utility so the JOAT people are less unhappy.

And still get a class reduction, which is good, six focused classes and three not so much.

@brokkr do these skill lists assume that there is no branching? a class's branching tree heavily impacts how people will utilize it it. take for example dune trader's branching. in particular it has armor repair -> armor making which is commonly known to suck ass along with tentmaking -> clothworking which also really sucks ass

Quote from: Lotion on July 02, 2022, 09:40:33 AM
@brokkr do these skill lists assume that there is no branching? a class's branching tree heavily impacts how people will utilize it it. take for example dune trader's branching. in particular it has armor repair -> armor making which is commonly known to suck ass along with tentmaking -> clothworking which also really sucks ass

in the pictures, the ". <skill>" means that it branches from the skill above it.

(https://i.imgur.com/iCTuTtn.jpg)

So that one above would branch guarding, rescue, and blind fighting from parry
sneak from hide
poisoning and bandagemaking from bandage, etc.

A little late, but I'd more clearly demarcate melee and ranged types. I'd also suggest giving them appropriate (and significant) boosts and penalties to their class defining stats. If possible, I'd give the melee types significant worn armor weight reductions and give the ranged types a +1 room distance sight in any weather or level of light.

Because the subclass discussion has been necro'd...  Some thoughts I shared on discord.

I understand there are some practical implementation issues, but it would be nice to have refresh of class names... Preferably to things that categorizes a type of play which might be more newbie friendly?  This tramples some current classes, subclasses and old classes, but a suggestion if things were starting from scratch:

(https://i.ibb.co/tY91Fk2/guilds.png)

I thought perhaps we should look at classes and subclasses differently:

High Level Overview:
You have 5 character classes, Fighter, Ranger, Thief, Maker, Mage.
These classes define most of the attributes / perks of the class.

You have a choice of specific subclasses based on the class you choose:
Fighter is the only one with "Fighter++", Ranger is the only one with "Ranger++", etc.

You can prevent the subclasses from being chosen by the class - Mage cannot pick Fighter++, etc

example:
Fighter
* Fighter++
* Ranger
* Thief
* Maker
* Mage

Ranger
* Fighter
* Ranger++
* Thief
* Maker
* Mage

Thief
* Fighter
* Ranger
* Thief++
* Maker
* Mage

Merchant
* Fighter
* Ranger
* Thief
* Maker++
* Mage

Mage
* Fighter
* Ranger
* Thief
* Maker
* Mage++

You can potentially have different types of "Fighter++" subclasses specifically tailored towards character tropes you want to present - example:
Maker++ subclass 1 - general + wood specialty (wagonmaking, low master weapons / armor)
Maker++ subclass 2 - weapons + poisons (high master weapons, brew, low master armor, leather)
Maker++ subclass 3 - armors + clothing  (high master armor/clothing/leather, low master weapons)
or
Fighter++ subclass 1 - large weapons  (high master clubs, axes, polearms, hack, sap)
Fighter++ subclass 2 - small weapons  (high master swords, daggers, backstab, reposte)
Fighter++ subclass 3 - general (low master all weapons, advanced hack, reposte)

If you choose fighter class, you get advanced weapon skills.   If you choose mage, you get mage subclasses
If you choose mage class, you don't get to choose fighter++ subclasses, but can choose fighter subclass (perhaps limited advanced weapon skills)

Hi. I hate this. I like guilds as they are just fine, the changes to subguilds ought to be enough.

I agree. I don't know what changing the main guilds would accomplish and this looks like a headache with no benefit.

Guilds are fine (barring some painful/nonsensical branching paths: looking at you, Laborer).

Cities (really, Allanak) are busted for non-guild reasons.

I would suggest just replacing the current zero karma guilds (except custom crafter) with the Extended Subguilds just because there's really no reason to take a 0K sub if you have any alternatives.

No, guilds aren't fine, but you're never going to get players to actually get on board with getting rid of too much excess.  For the same reason you're just not going to run into too many landlords that say 'Hey, this has been great for me, I've decided to lower your rent.'

Guilds as they are, are currently in a fine if not good, state of implementation.

Changing one thing at once, would be better. Implement the subguilds, because they are in desperate need of the revamp.

See how the balancing pans out. And then in a year or so, I'd say revisit the idea of cinching down on the current guilds for more "pure" conceptual implementations.

Acknowledgement of bias:I personally like the current guilds, but DISLIKE heavily the current subguild situation. I find that the current guilds are a balance of world flavor and concept flavor. And you can play just about anything and it'll still have variety.

Yes there are some over tuned main guilds. But  I think that can be helped along by tuning up subguilds to fill in the gaps. More than by scrapping the guilds all together.

I think the current guilds are good enough. They just need some tweaks.

Enforcer branching sap and backstab from a weapon skill is dumb. Branching from a weapon skill is an incredibly tedious bar to clear.

Dune trader branching armor making from armor repair is absolutely infuriating.

No class or subclass should branch anything (except maybe woodworking) from lumberjacking. There's no reason Allanaki laborers, etc. should be at such a huge disadvantage to Tuluki.

Certain criminal skills (e.g. peek, steal) might as well not be part of a guild if they don't get them at master.

Again, with city sneak and hide...if a guild doesn't get at least hide to master, they might as well not even have the skills.

Along those lines...I don't understand the point of the Fence and Pilferer guilds.  I can sneak around and craft stuff? Okay. Why do I need to sneak around? Why do I need to ever use steal, when I can make an obscene amount of 'sid just by crafting?  That being said...these aren't a big deal, because you can simply ignore them, as they serve no useful purpose.

QuoteI can sneak around and craft stuff? Okay. Why do I need to sneak around?

Instead of hiring the help, you steal from the help and make them help against their will.

ETA:  Not that this shouldn't be a guild/subguild combination instead of a class itself.  Not that these classes aren't completely bloated making subguilds just a weird vestigial leftover.  Not that everyone is going to love everything that makes them able to do everything they want, then continue to complain about the lack of interaction.  These guilds are -fiiiine-.

Speak plainly, man. Nobody likes having to decipher sarcasm when a genuine post would have been perfectly well within your grasp.

I'd say that if you implement both of these at the same time, seeing what it does for balance is not really possible. As in you won't know if it's the sub or main guild changes. If it were up to me, I'd say let the subguild change happen, see what it does, and revisit this idea later. Too much change at the same time is going to be confusing.

Give me a two thirds done skillset with some handshaking with staff to round out the skill set up for 1 karma and we're good to go.

I want to have a guy who sails out of RSV to chop down trees on Silt Islands for a GMH client.

Seems more limiting than what we have now. I don't like the hunter split. Seems like strong hunter vs agile hunter.  Why split it? Stats already guide if you're better at bows or melee. Regardless, I agree we should delay any guild changes for many months to gather data on the success of the sub guild change. 

We should also gather data now. What guilds are unused? Is that bad or good? Why do we think they are they under used? What are the most popular guilds? Should we make sure they don't get nerfed in a new system? Or should they get nerfed?

The guild subguild choice is complex now. Is that what we want to fix? If so then I like a return to simple main guild and wide ranging subguild. Ranger Rogue Fighter Crafter. No need for pseudo-crafters or other combined guilds because subguilds. But that's just one idea. What we need are goals, data, and presumptions made on the data. 

I would ask staff to not change the guild structure again any time soon.  The guilds work fine and just need QoL tweaks.  They should be the bottom of the list for fixes if anything is really even wrong with them.

Quote from: mansa on May 08, 2023, 04:10:18 PM
I thought perhaps we should look at classes and subclasses differently:

High Level Overview:
You have 5 character classes, Fighter, Ranger, Thief, Maker, Mage.
These classes define most of the attributes / perks of the class.

You have a choice of specific subclasses based on the class you choose:
Fighter is the only one with "Fighter++", Ranger is the only one with "Ranger++", etc.

You can prevent the subclasses from being chosen by the class - Mage cannot pick Fighter++, etc

If you choose fighter class, you get advanced weapon skills.   If you choose mage, you get mage subclasses
If you choose mage class, you don't get to choose fighter++ subclasses, but can choose fighter subclass (perhaps limited advanced weapon skills)

I like the idea of higher tier classes preventing someone from doubling up on an equally powerful Elemental Subclass.

Something akin to selecting Enforcer/Raider/Fighter disables Elementalist Subclass options, unless a special application.

The next combat tier, Infiltrator/Scout/Soldier are still able to select Elementalist Subclasses, but their lower overall proficiency in combat reflects their attunement to the Elements.