Armageddon General Discussion Board

Please use this thread to discuss the staff announcement re: Arm 2.

Please keep the conversation civil.  This is not a thread to post complaints, if you have concerns or complaints please direct those to staff via the request tool. If you have questions please post them here and Producers and Admin will endeavour to answer these as best we can.

Meh, was hoping to keep this game around and see more work done on it anyway. Feelings not hurt at all. Thanks for letting us know! Yippee!

Glad to hear the code advancements will go to good use.

I'm also glad to hear the copyright worries with regards to Dark Sun are over.

(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5500907591_7fdf44f577.jpg)

Does this mean previous end of the world events might be somehow retconned in the undefined future? Like a hidden pocket of halflings?

And does it mean the limit on builders has been lifted, potentially expanding the game world?

Yes, would like to see halflings and kanks returned to the world somehow and some of the existing things fixed up more. Brew, etc.

I have no doubt awesomeness lies ahead for all involved.

I like the current game so this is good to me, but I have to wonder what will be done with all that was generated during the writing process: race ideas, city concepts, player- and staff-written rooms and items, etc. Will at least some of this stuff be modified and put to use in-game any way? Or is everything like that going to be scrapped?

That said, I look forward to seeing how things go with more focus on this game.

Quote from: Delirium on May 15, 2012, 10:12:52 PM
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5140/5500907591_7fdf44f577.jpg)

Hmm.. Don't know how I feel about it, I was looking forward to a fresh new game..

I hope it at least means that Staff will be a lot more involved in plots instead of letting the players come up with them.

Otherwise, yeah.

To me Arm kinda feels like a new game compared to back when 2.arm was first announced.

I don't really imagine this will change anything to do with Arm, like some of you are suggesting. I'm ambivalent.

However, I told you so.

One day someone will find a valley to a new land that new land and our land will go to war. it shall be awesome.


Calling it now.

The staff that are working on Armageddon 1, or the 'game', have never been working on the other project.  You will not be seeing a sudden drastic change in output of staff etc as every storyteller working on the game has had this game as their sole focus.  Some producer and admin time has been spent on Arm 2 but in the last couple of years it has been minimal, at best.

As far as drastic changes to this game - you won't be seeing that in the immediate future, either.   As stated in the announcement we will be using the copious amount of information and proposals we have for Arm Reborn as well as the work that has been done on building items, npcs etc as a database for this game.  It's entirely possible that you will eventually see some of the things we'd been working on for that game introduced to this one.

We are still bound within the constraints of our heavily modified Diku code.  This allows us to do a lot of things, but there are many things that we would prefer done otherwise that just can't be done, or that the overhead in turns or work vs reward means that we will not be doing them.  Code projects fall in to their own special niche of requiring the manpower of a very limited team to want to work on them.

Plotwise nothing is going to be retconned. It is business as usual. Kanks will not be returning as they are part of the Dark Sun universe etc.

This has not changed how the game is run.  Plots will still be player focused, a lot of things will still be done via the request tool, and so on.

Really we just want to be straight up with everyone and say Arm Reborn with a new game world isn't going to happen.  We hope you're enjoying the game and game world as it is now because that is how it is going to be continuing on for the forseeable future.

Quote from: Adhira on May 15, 2012, 10:36:53 PM
Plotwise nothing is going to be retconned. It is business as usual. Kanks will not be returning as they are part of the Dark Sun universe etc.

This has not changed how the game is run.  Plots will still be player focused, a lot of things will still be done via the request tool, and so on.

Really we just want to be straight up with everyone and say Arm Reborn with a new game world isn't going to happen.  We hope you're enjoying the game and game world as it is now because that is how it is going to be continuing on for the forseeable future.

Alright, thanks for your honesty, Adhira.

D'aw, I had been really looking forward to a 'new' game and a clean slate feel.  Plus I thought a lot of the ideas for the new game were shiny.  But I'm glad that there's closure on it and at least it doesn't sound like all the work will go to waste!

I felt, paranoid as I can be, felt that the projects I wanted to see accomplish in Armageddon 1 was being slowed down or denied because of the idea that any change I make wouldn't leave a lasting mark...

Wasted energy on a subject that would be destroyed or forgotten once the new game went live.


With this announcement, it makes me happy.  I feel like the energy I can put into an idea I had may actually come into the game at one point.  Its like the only denial of my idea can be for the idea's sake, (with it being a teerible idea within the game world) rather than a rejection for time and energy spent on an idea that would only benefit players for 6 months or less.


I feel like a weight has been lifted.  There is no hanging "world destruction" that will cause a ruckus to my game play.   I no longer feel the need to make a character who's sole goal in life is to outlive a world-changing event in order to "win" the game.


I feel like I can be creative again.  You breathed life into me.  Thanks!

(http://i.imgur.com/VWPyh.gif)

I told you so.

I'm glad you all decided to make a lot of your base rage quit with the two year prior announcement, then decided to cancel that six years later. Good decision.

I'm pretty ambivalent about this.  Do you mind sharing the reason/s it's been cancelled?

QuoteKanks will not be returning as they are part of the Dark Sun universe etc.

So does that mean more of the Dark Sun parts are going to be stripped out of this game? If not, then why are those particular things not making a comeback? What is the other reason besides them being part of Dark Sun considering that a majority of the game as is comes from Dark Sun.

Maybe because it's already a part of the storyline and retconning it would be kind of awkward?

I'm happy. I love our current game world  :D

QuoteMaybe because it's already a part of the storyline and retconning it would be kind of awkward?

It would be very easy to explain them coming back slowly at first. Some kanks survived in a secluded location that the plague didn't reach. Since the rest died out, the plague to them died along with. Someone finds the rest and begins breeding them. A group of halflings survived and come back out of hiding elsewhere in the Grey and fight to take back their forest from the kryl. Etc. Neither of which is retconning anything. Not that hard at all with a little bit of imagination. Not something the players or staff of this game are in short supply of. Or at least most of us I guess.

This project has not been 'active' for the last couple of years, apart from the team working on the code base.  The primary drivers of the project are no longer part of the staffing team.  We made this decision based on the fact that our preference was to the existing game world, rather than bringing in a new game world that the majority of people working on the game have not been involved with.

We know this game, we know how to staff it, and we know how to keep it ticking over.

With much respect for the writers and designers who worked on building for Arm 2...I'm very attached to our current gameworld and glad that we're going to keep it.

The new codebase is what I was excited about.  I do fear that it was maybe the limiting factor in getting Arm 2 rolling and that a lot of man-years worth of work might still be left on it.  But I guess that's okay.  There's no special hurry.

Awww, I felt that burn all the way over here!

It's up to staff, innit? I don't particularly care one way or the other, but I never really liked kanks anyway.

The point, however: kanks died out. Worldwide. Even in those "pockets" (aka waterslideland). It would be a little weird to do a "oh hey, some of them survived" retcon after all this time. I never said it was impossible, I said it would be awkward.

Go dose a valium, dude... and be happy that we get to keep our badass, history-rich, so-messy-it's-beautiful Armageddon after all.

i was pretty excited about the prospect of exploring a new game-world when 2.arm was announced several years ago. as of about an hour ago, i guess i kinda figured it was never going to happen.

pretty okay with it being cancelled, though i think it's a shame that so much effort went into it. i would hope it hasn't all been wasted effort, and that we'll be able to use some of the stuff that was built.

big appreciation to the ladies and gentlemen in the coding arena for keeping the idea of a new base alive.

Soap operas, comic books, etc. bring back dead characters all the time. I don't think it would be awkward.

So if Arm 2 is not coming (for now), does that mean we can lose the pretence of peace between the major powers and get back at each others' throats again?

Quote from: Jdr on May 15, 2012, 11:21:21 PM
So if Arm 2 is not coming (for now), does that mean we can lose the pretence of peace between the major powers and get back at each others' throats again?

+1

Beginning play after the Arm 2 announcements, I've always secretly hoped we'd stick with what we have. I really enjoy it. :)

Now we just need to kill off the mantis for good and we'll be un-sueable!

With this recent turn of events, would it so far-fetched to presume that Staff are going to start taking more of an active role in shaping the world?

I know it's all player-driven focus and what-not but a little push from Staff, to get the ball rolling, does wonders. Probably not the place for this but since we're going to continue on with the same world/game/races; it'd be a little relieving to know there are going to still be in-game changes that may or may not affect the whole of the Known's populace.

I liked the stuff between the Kryl and the Mantis and was kind've disappointed to see it all simmer out.

Quote from: Case on May 15, 2012, 11:21:57 PM
Beginning play after the Arm 2 announcements, I've always secretly hoped we'd stick with what we have. I really enjoy it. :)

My feelings are similar. I'm only into my second month of Arm, and while I'm not quite so arrogant to think my current PC could live all the way to Armageddon 2's rolling out, my feelings of having to learn a whole new game world were pretty ambivalent. I hope the coders' hard work can be put to good use, but I'd really much rather see this game world keep growing strong than having to shift gears.

Quote from: Jdr on May 15, 2012, 11:21:21 PM
So if Arm 2 is not coming (for now), does that mean we can lose the pretence of peace between the major powers and get back at each others' throats again?

What makes you think it ever stopped?

As for kanks... I'm glad they're gone.

We're not changing our staffing methods.  We will be continuing on as we have been.  If you've been playing the game and haven't noticed staff involvement in the player originated plots and other things that have been going on then you might want to take a long around and get yourself involved.  

And you thought you could kill off dwarves! I knew they'd find a way.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 15, 2012, 11:47:58 PM
And you thought you could kill off dwarves! I knew they'd find a way.

Time for a dwarven uprising.. wait does that fit my focus?

(http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/818/okwiththis.png)

Quote from: FightClub on May 15, 2012, 10:59:41 PM
I'm glad you all decided to make a lot of your base rage quit with the two year prior announcement, then decided to cancel that six years later. Good decision.

This.

Quote from: musashi on May 15, 2012, 11:28:27 PM
Now we just need to kill off the mantis for good and we'll be un-sueable!

Don't forget muls...

yay! no more "that is better for arma 2.0" bullshit comments awesome!

Quote from: Clearsighted on May 15, 2012, 11:55:52 PM

Quote from: FightClub on May 15, 2012, 10:59:41 PM
I'm glad you all decided to make a lot of your base rage quit with the two year prior announcement, then decided to cancel that six years later. Good decision.

This.

If they were going to ragequit over the game ending sometime in a few years instead of enjoying it while they could, they would've probably ragequit over something else silly anyway. *shrug*

Quote from: A Large Bag on May 15, 2012, 11:57:42 PM

Quote from: Clearsighted on May 15, 2012, 11:55:52 PM

Quote from: FightClub on May 15, 2012, 10:59:41 PM
I'm glad you all decided to make a lot of your base rage quit with the two year prior announcement, then decided to cancel that six years later. Good decision.

This.

If they were going to ragequit over, the game will be ending sometime in a few years, they would've probably ragequit over something else silly anyway. *shrug*

Rage quit is probably the wrong word. More of an apathy quit. At least it was in my case.

When I did return for a short spell, I felt a lot of apathy from the staff, especially in 2008-2010 where everything was just 'coasting'. I haven't played in two years so I don't know how it's been lately. Seems more of the same.

Quote from: Riya OniSenshi on May 15, 2012, 11:56:28 PM

Quote from: musashi on May 15, 2012, 11:28:27 PM
Now we just need to kill off the mantis for good and we'll be un-sueable!

Don't forget muls...

And hairless dwarves with foci, extremely tall elves that try to cheat everyone, elementalists, defilers/preservers, sorceror-kings, The Way of the Mind, rarity of metal, and probably a hundred other things Dark Sun.

As for getting rid of muls and mantis, I do believe that it was posted years ago that the trouble with the dark sun creators turned out not to be an issue after all, or died out. Though Kanks had begun their adios plot already. So I don;t believe there's any need to get rid of more races or critters from the game.

I say we all participate in a time jump rpt to right before kanks died.

This is how it starts.

Stepping out of a shimmering portal, a bronze skinned dwarf says in sirihish:
   'Come wit me if ju want to live.'

Everyone in the past thinks we're crazy and need to be hunted down.

You forgot the sunglasses.

Quote from: Winterless on May 15, 2012, 11:21:48 PM

Quote from: Jdr on May 15, 2012, 11:21:21 PM
So if Arm 2 is not coming (for now), does that mean we can lose the pretence of peace between the major powers and get back at each others' throats again?

+1

+1

I miss (and hear from others that they miss) the large staff driven conflicts such as wars between the north and south. Player driven plots are well and good, but players can't drive something like the copper wars.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 16, 2012, 12:01:00 AM
I say we all participate in a time jump rpt to right before kanks died.

This is how it starts.

Stepping out of a shimmering portal, a bronze skinned dwarf says in sirihish:
   'Come wit me if ju want to live.'

Everyone in the past thinks we're crazy and need to be hunted down.

+1

Always wanted Arm 1 to stay.  Far cooler than anything I saw outlined for arm2.

That said...I just have to say it.

"Hahahahahaha!"

C'mon, a lot of us figured this would happen.

So, just wondering. Does this mean that certain policy's might be looked at again?

Things like Non-virtual wagons being build for houses, ect.

The possibility of forming a new house.

Forming a small poduc outpost/camp/ect.

Some of those human tribals we all miss being available again?

Yes I know we still have 3. But some of us miss benjari, and Jultavin.

That's just, like, your opinion, man.

EDIT:
Since you guys are posting so fast -- That is in response to "Player driven plots are well and good, but players can't drive something like the copper wars." They all started with player effort.

Quote from: Armaddict on May 16, 2012, 12:07:15 AM
Always wanted Arm 1 to stay.  Far cooler than anything I saw outlined for arm2.

That said...I just have to say it.

"Hahahahahaha!"

C'mon, a lot of us figured this would happen.

Yeah, and we got a ton of shit for bringing it up too.  :P


And guys, stop expecting big new changed to our game because of this. It's the same.

I will add my totally biased opinion that the Benjari are/were awesome. However.. (being as I wrote the docs)... they were meant to struggle with extinction, and potentially, to lose. It was a prime example of rigid traditionalism versus adaptability, and as the story went, traditionalism - and extinction - won. I'm perfectly okay with that.

It's that whole, "awesome people dying for sake of the storyline" thing. G.R.R. Martin would be proud.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 16, 2012, 12:11:08 AM

Quote from: Armaddict on May 16, 2012, 12:07:15 AM
Always wanted Arm 1 to stay.  Far cooler than anything I saw outlined for arm2.

That said...I just have to say it.

"Hahahahahaha!"

C'mon, a lot of us figured this would happen.

Yeah, and we got a ton of shit for bringing it up too.  :P


And guys, stop expecting big new changed to our game because of this. It's the same.

What I was asking wasnt a big change. More of "Hey since things aren't ending is there a chance some of this stuff will be doable again"

Fair question, I think. I'm doubting it. but one can hope.

I'll always pine for the days of the rebellion. I liked the active conflict. It probably wasn't as great as I remember but I really liked being a rebel northerner a lot more than the post occupation that the north has become.

I was kind of looking forward to exploring a new map, working out a new code system, and figuring out some new crafts.  Oh well.

Quote from: Synthesis on May 16, 2012, 12:14:30 AM
I was kind of looking forward to exploring a new map, working out a new code system, and figuring out some new crafts.  Oh well.

Last two things may still be implemented if they do decide to move from Dikumud as was outlined by Adhira. So do not feel sad.

Quote from: Eurynomos on May 16, 2012, 12:09:40 AM
That's just, like, your opinion, man.

EDIT:
Since you guys are posting so fast -- That is in response to "Player driven plots are well and good, but players can't drive something like the copper wars." They all started with player effort.

Players didn't put a copper deposit there to be found and fought over though I think is what they are getting at. I'm all for more triggers from the staff to get larger plots going. You guys drop in the fuel and let us run with it and see what outcome our actions bring.

Synthesis doesn't feel sad. He feels logic.

As long as we still get enter-able barrels I don't care.

Quote from: Akaramu on May 16, 2012, 12:06:54 AM

Quote from: Winterless on May 15, 2012, 11:21:48 PM

Quote from: Jdr on May 15, 2012, 11:21:21 PM
So if Arm 2 is not coming (for now), does that mean we can lose the pretence of peace between the major powers and get back at each others' throats again?

+1

+1

I miss (and hear from others that they miss) the large staff driven conflicts such as wars between the north and south. Player driven plots are well and good, but players can't drive something like the copper wars.

+1
Agreed player plots are fun and all but some stuff just needs staff.

This ruins two of my future plots.

1: Cat people genocide

2: Alternate Silt-Sea Based Arm 2 project (0.2% complete)

I loved a lot of the material I read about for Arm.2, and it is always sad to see something you know a lot of people put work into die off.  It's good to know the codebase will continue to be worked on.

I love Arm.1, and continue to love it, so I have no complaints.

EDIT:

Might I add I wouldn't mind the IG world continuing to slowly erode.  Post-post-apocalyptic?  Yes please.

Quote from: Eurynomos on May 16, 2012, 12:09:40 AM
That's just, like, your opinion, man.

EDIT:
Since you guys are posting so fast -- That is in response to "Player driven plots are well and good, but players can't drive something like the copper wars." They all started with player effort.

Yes. I'm certain the lack of another Copper Wars or similar-style event has to do with lack of player initiative ;).

I can understand how it all played out, but will feel sad if all the effort expended by everyone isn't put to use in some way.

I can remember back (15 years or more) when a huge zone opened in the north.  That was pretty damn cool.  If some areas made for Arm 2 would fit in and are almost done, I'd love to see them in.  All over.  Other side of the Silt Sea hard to get to, all the way to opening up previously undiscovered passages through some of our impassable mountain ranges.

That sense that there is something out there to see, new....

Oh, and I'd like to play a cendi.

When do we get to overthrow Tektolnes

i'm tired of that guy's shit

Quote from: Feco on May 16, 2012, 12:31:39 AM
Might I add I wouldn't mind the IG world continuing to slowly erode.  Post-post-apocalyptic?  Yes please.

 And FYI: A war between north and south again IS possible. It would just take some action from one sides nobles. You want that war? App a noble, get some political alliances with other nobles, and start working for it.

Quote from: Fredd on May 16, 2012, 12:52:26 AM
And FYI: A war between north and south again IS possible. It would just take some action from one sides nobles. You want that war? App a noble, get some political alliances with other nobles, and start working for it.

NPC Higher ups will put the kabosh on any two groups in open conflict these days.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 16, 2012, 12:55:48 AM

Quote from: Fredd on May 16, 2012, 12:52:26 AM
And FYI: A war between north and south again IS possible. It would just take some action from one sides nobles. You want that war? App a noble, get some political alliances with other nobles, and start working for it.

NPC Higher ups will put the kabosh on any two groups in open conflict these days.

What a load of shit. That's not true at all.

edit: Was I just trolled?

Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 16, 2012, 12:55:48 AM

Quote from: Fredd on May 16, 2012, 12:52:26 AM
And FYI: A war between north and south again IS possible. It would just take some action from one sides nobles. You want that war? App a noble, get some political alliances with other nobles, and start working for it.

NPC Higher ups will put the kabosh on any two groups in open conflict these days.

Lies. I have somewhat recently pitted two groups against eachother in a war as a third party. These were two, coded, clans.

All it took was some spice, and a few lies.

Edit: This was less then a year ago, so i can't say more then this.

No, it's not still ongoing.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 16, 2012, 12:59:34 AM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 16, 2012, 12:55:48 AM

Quote from: Fredd on May 16, 2012, 12:52:26 AM
And FYI: A war between north and south again IS possible. It would just take some action from one sides nobles. You want that war? App a noble, get some political alliances with other nobles, and start working for it.

NPC Higher ups will put the kabosh on any two groups in open conflict these days.

What a load of shit. That's not true at all.

edit: Was I just trolled?

Then you don't know what shit is or are just generally ignorant of certain plots.

Quote from: Fredd on May 16, 2012, 01:04:57 AM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 16, 2012, 12:55:48 AM

Quote from: Fredd on May 16, 2012, 12:52:26 AM
And FYI: A war between north and south again IS possible. It would just take some action from one sides nobles. You want that war? App a noble, get some political alliances with other nobles, and start working for it.

NPC Higher ups will put the kabosh on any two groups in open conflict these days.

Lies. I have somewhat recently pitted two groups against eachother in a war as a third party. These were two, coded, clans.

All it took was some spice, and a few lies.

Edit: This was less then a year ago, so i can't say more then this.

No, it's not still ongoing.

Cooler heads will always prevail and it'll be resolved and the status quo will return.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 16, 2012, 01:06:49 AM

Quote from: Fredd on May 16, 2012, 01:04:57 AM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 16, 2012, 12:55:48 AM

Quote from: Fredd on May 16, 2012, 12:52:26 AM
And FYI: A war between north and south again IS possible. It would just take some action from one sides nobles. You want that war? App a noble, get some political alliances with other nobles, and start working for it.

NPC Higher ups will put the kabosh on any two groups in open conflict these days.

Lies. I have somewhat recently pitted two groups against eachother in a war as a third party. These were two, coded, clans.

All it took was some spice, and a few lies.

Edit: This was less then a year ago, so i can't say more then this.

No, it's not still ongoing.

Cooler heads will always prevail and it'll be resolved and the status quo will return.

it resolved. After the leader of a certain group was massively humiliated, and my goal was complete.

After that, honestly, I didn't care if it fizzeled or turned into zalanthas war 3. LOL.

Quote from: Fredd on May 16, 2012, 01:08:45 AM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 16, 2012, 01:06:49 AM

Quote from: Fredd on May 16, 2012, 01:04:57 AM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on May 16, 2012, 12:55:48 AM

Quote from: Fredd on May 16, 2012, 12:52:26 AM
And FYI: A war between north and south again IS possible. It would just take some action from one sides nobles. You want that war? App a noble, get some political alliances with other nobles, and start working for it.

NPC Higher ups will put the kabosh on any two groups in open conflict these days.

Lies. I have somewhat recently pitted two groups against eachother in a war as a third party. These were two, coded, clans.

All it took was some spice, and a few lies.

Edit: This was less then a year ago, so i can't say more then this.

No, it's not still ongoing.

Cooler heads will always prevail and it'll be resolved and the status quo will return.

it resolved. After the leader of a certain group was massively humiliated, and my goal was complete.

After that, honestly, I didn't care if it fizzeled or turned into zalanthas war 3. LOL.

That sounds like some petty stuff that's over as soon as three PCs die. That doesn't sound like it is on the scale of you claiming it's possible to start a war between city states.

Alot of people died on both sides.

Personally i think it's possible. prove me wrong. App an apropriate noble, and try it. If it's shot down from above after everything is perfect. I'll mail you a dollar.

Wait a minute....Damn it! I always hoping when Arm 1 ended my volcano would have destroyed Allanak and I'd have bragging rights on winning Arm  :'(
em goes off to mope in the corner.  >:(

Quote from: Fredd on May 16, 2012, 01:21:59 AM
Alot of people died on both sides.

Personally i think it's possible. prove me wrong. App an apropriate noble, and try it. If it's shot down from above after everything is perfect. I'll mail you a dollar.

I have to agree with kank whisperer, I have seen many large scale ideas put down by staff, with a direct statement of such things will not come to pass. You have to remember, staff will seek to preserve the game world and keep it going in the directions they deem is sensical and feasible. Currently such large scale conflicts are not slated in the best interest of the world.
Any such aggression between two super powers must be meet with the highest of ranking officials, which is not your local pc templar but the Staff run commanders. currently it is small localized plots that are what the staff desire pc instigate , or so I gather from experience.
Of coarse there are the minor goings on of the merchant houses, but they by no means are super powers, and merchant infighting is a common enough thing, but does not often draw in the military aspect of the north facing the south. Whish is what the atmosphere of the topic really relates to, in regards to having a kibosh put on things.

lol at all the people who posted "Waiting until Arm 2 to make another PC".

Quote from: Is Friday on May 16, 2012, 01:44:06 AM
lol at all the people who posted "Waiting until Arm 2 to make another PC".

Most of those posted about six years ago, when Arm 2 was supposed to be coded and fully functional within a year.

If anyone actually followed through with it and hasn't created a character in six years, chances are that they really don't even remember that an Arm 2 was in the making  ;)

Wait, so I can't put on an Arm rendition of Cats ?  FUCK

I'm glad Arm is staying the same.  Though, I do agree with Synthesis, it was gonna be neat to tinker with some new code, explore some new stuff.  All in good time, hopefully.

edited out a derail

the known gets invaded by a new race from arm 2.0 development...

race gets repelled but has a territory carved out thats theirs.

new race gets opened to arm.

:)

Two words:

Fire Kanks! (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39640.msg554550.html#msg554550)

I was really looking forward to the lizard race and being a noob again.
I hate it that all the hard work was for naught or crumbs that may or not be tasted at a later date.

Other than that, meh. I do hope some of the ceilings will be raised. This game seemed much "cooler" when I first started playing, and I got spoiled by being thrown into some really awesome, huge, scary things right off the bat when I was a noob.  I miss it.

Quote from: Dakota on May 16, 2012, 02:54:10 AM
the known gets invaded by a new race from arm 2.0 development...

race gets repelled but has a territory carved out thats theirs.

new race gets opened to arm.

:)

That would be so cool.

I look forward to seeing the current Zalanthas grow and evolve, in whatever way staff sees fit.

I have to admit that I was incredibly excited at the topic when I came onto the GDB today, then I had a big let down...  This was followed by an "oh well."

I guess from a non-veteran player I was excited to come into Arm 2 from the ground up as they say... you know?  I would be able to learn and be one of the oldschoolers who talk about things like "back in my day we walked uphill both ways carrying the kank instead of riding it!" type of stories you hear.

I was excited for the code possibilities too, and the system changes.  The main problem with MUD's is that the codebases were written so long ago they just don't have the advanced capability that they should have being in 2012.  I love Arm 1... well, Armageddon since there is no "2" anymore and I will NOT stop playing it...

I was just excited for the potential of starting fresh and new alongside everyone else.

That being said:  I'm fine with it.  There was just that twinge of lost potential.

 :o I just peed myself a little?

Love Arm and happy to carry on as is.

Quote from: FightClub on May 15, 2012, 10:59:41 PM
I'm glad you all decided to make a lot of your base rage quit with the two year prior announcement, then decided to cancel that six years later. Good decision.

Wait, how are you not permanently banned from the GDB?  Begone, foul creature!

Big plots are absolutely possible in the current iteration of this game. I say this as having observed some over the past few years. They did not necessarily entail more than small-scale conflict, but that conflict is tense enough and relies purely on PCs, whereas wars seem to rely on orderable NPC units with some PvP combat. Think of a way to handle conflict that isn't mindless use of the kill command and you can easily have conflict between two sides (north and south, or whatever else).

Wars start cold, then get hot.

As for the use of Arm2 related writings and materials, that is good to be able to make sure of. That means there could still be major changes to this game that we anticipated for the next, and I think I will be pleasantly surprised to see what comes next and such.

I felt a disturbance in the relationship to the Land, as though millions of catgirl voices cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.

It's a shame that so much work may be mostly for naught, but I'm more than content with this choice. I love our game world. I'm happy that now I know I'll have the time to play every character that I wanted to. I'm hoping that now the boundaries (physical and figurative) of the world get a little more flexible to incorporate some fresh ideas, but yeah. Arm's a good game, and I'm glad I can look forward to playing in the desert for a long time to come.

We'll probably be seeing some of this (http://i.imgur.com/3a1aG.png), too.

(linked, too big to directly post)

I'm pretty conflicted about this. On one hand: awesome! I love the game world. On the other.. so much curbed potential. Either way, it'll be refreshing to play without the looming axe of BIG EVIL DOOM on your neck.

Will staff-driven plots make a reemergence?

Just out of curiosity but has anyone every given much thought to fundraising to purchase an advanced code-base? Like the Rapture engine IRE uses? Pretty sure they do franchise out the codebase. It's like 10k but hey, I'd put a couple hundred bucks towards it myself.

I trust that the new code that was worked on for Arm.2 (once it's implemented) will allow the capability for lots and lots of potential that the current code is unable to do like those mass conflicts with npc units and pcs that don't have units insta-killing any poor pc that is targetted... It's just a matter of time now...

Quote from: Nyr on May 16, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
We'll probably be seeing some of this (http://i.imgur.com/3a1aG.png), too.

(linked, too big to directly post)

LOL, I just looked at the link. So true!

Quote from: Nyr on May 16, 2012, 09:21:35 AM
We'll probably be seeing some of this (http://i.imgur.com/3a1aG.png), too.

(linked, too big to directly post)

I had thought of this too. My concern is now that changes and fixes to things in the game that have needed to be done for a long time will now be further delayed because we'll have that hanging over our heads indefinitely in place of Arm 2 hanging over our heads indefinitely. Will this also affect the extended subguilds and new CGP system's addition to the game code?

The fact of the matter with code is we have an extremely limited resource with respect to coders.  Arm 2's code base will not be sucking time from any of them but me, and that will be as I feel like it.  So don't expect JavaMUG's engine anytime soon.

Quote from: Morgenes on May 16, 2012, 10:23:20 AM
The fact of the matter with code is we have an extremely limited resource with respect to coders.  Arm 2's code base will not be sucking time from any of them but me, and that will be as I feel like it.  So don't expect JavaMUG's engine anytime soon.

Does it take a long time to learn to be a coder? I wouldn't mind volunteering if there are resources to look at and the staff would accept them, but I also don't know anything about code right now.  :D

Quote from: Semper on May 16, 2012, 10:26:14 AM
Does it take a long time to learn to be a coder? I wouldn't mind volunteering if there are resources to look at and the staff would accept them, but I also don't know anything about code right now.  :D

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Spring framework    [lol unbranched]   Hibernate framework [lol unbranched]

Quote from: Semper on May 16, 2012, 10:26:14 AM

Quote from: Morgenes on May 16, 2012, 10:23:20 AM
The fact of the matter with code is we have an extremely limited resource with respect to coders.  Arm 2's code base will not be sucking time from any of them but me, and that will be as I feel like it.  So don't expect JavaMUG's engine anytime soon.

Does it take a long time to learn to be a coder? I wouldn't mind volunteering if there are resources to look at and the staff would accept them, but I also don't know anything about code right now.  :D

I learned to code for Diku MUDs by downloading a Diku derivative (Merc II for the record) and playing with it to get it to do what I wanted.  That said, by that point I'd already had a year of high school programming experience, and a couple of semesters of college level programming classes.  Ultimately, it comes up to your desire to do it.  You could pick up a book on C programming (I recommend The C Programming Language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_C_Programming_Language)), and read it and then start playing with it.

For the JavaMUG engine, Brytta's post on Java, J2EE, Spring and Hibernate are all needed.

But to be honest, if you don't know anything about coding, we won't be able to really use you until you are at least familiar with C and working with things like filesystems, databases and socket communication.  Ideally, you'd be familiar with MUD programming in general.

Programming can be learned without any academic experience, depending on your drive and motivation to learn it as well as time you can commit. But keep in mind it takes months or years to become proficient, not days.

I'm pretty happy about this as well and not at all surprised.  It seems like every MUD that closes announcing a brand new awesome codebase/world in 6 months always fade away into nothing.  I'm incredibly glad we have a professional staff that kept the current game going (I'm bummed I missed out on some of the end of the world stuff, it sounds like it was the shit).  I didn't ragequit but did feel some apathy after the original announcement and then real life happened (in a good way) and I couldn't play.

I have other stuff I want to say but it's a derail so it's going in RAT.

Is there any chance that some of the areas built for 2.0 could be used to pad 1.0?  We haven't had a new area go in in probably 12 years now.

Quote from: Old Kank on May 16, 2012, 11:54:48 AM
Is there any chance that some of the areas built for 2.0 could be used to pad 1.0?  We haven't had a new area go in in probably 12 years now.

Yeah, I'd like to see some of the material that was written used to expand the coded gameworld too.

Quote from: Nyr on May 16, 2012, 08:38:31 AM

Quote from: FightClub on May 15, 2012, 10:59:41 PM
I'm glad you all decided to make a lot of your base rage quit with the two year prior announcement, then decided to cancel that six years later. Good decision.

Wait, how are you not permanently banned from the GDB?  Begone, foul creature!

LOL that made my morning...errr um afternoon.. whatever. I wonder how many of those people stayed gone...

Quote from: A Large Bag on May 16, 2012, 11:59:05 AM

Quote from: Old Kank on May 16, 2012, 11:54:48 AM
Is there any chance that some of the areas built for 2.0 could be used to pad 1.0?  We haven't had a new area go in in probably 12 years now.

Yeah, I'd like to see some of the material that was written used to expand the coded gameworld too.

That would be really fucking awesome, as long as they aren't civilized -- wilderness areas wouldn't dilute the player-base, at least after the initial novelty factor is over.

I seriously doubt any individual has seen all of the ~30,000 rooms, though...

Quote from: Feco on May 16, 2012, 01:18:04 PM
I seriously doubt any individual has seen all of the ~30,000 rooms, though...

Please tell me exactly where you've seen/read that Armageddon has ~30,000 rooms ...

Hm, I made my own research and the TMS site says that:

World Size: Gigantic (20001+ rooms)

Weird! (but in a good way.)

Quote from: Fredd on May 16, 2012, 01:21:59 AM
Alot of people died on both sides.

Personally i think it's possible. prove me wrong. App an apropriate noble, and try it. If it's shot down from above after everything is perfect. I'll mail you a dollar.

I was really hoping he could post some examples of this happening in the past, in order to prove us wrong. I remember Nyr absolutely quashing the last attempt someone tried to make of insisting that staff were stopping large-scale conflict from happening. Wish I could find those posts.

Edit:
Ergh, my search-fu blows. I did however find this very interesting thread. http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39640.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,39640.0.html)

In answer to the question about whether we might use rooms, ideas etc etc from the Arm 2 proposals/building that has gone on.  I have answered this previously in the post and in the actual announcement in staff announcements. However, I will copy and paste once more:

It is possible that over time we will consider some of the proposed ideas and projects for incorporation to the Armageddon world and we will utilize what we have compiled as an ideas database.

Quote from: Malken on May 16, 2012, 01:37:12 PM

Quote from: Feco on May 16, 2012, 01:18:04 PM
I seriously doubt any individual has seen all of the ~30,000 rooms, though...

Please tell me exactly where you've seen/read that Armageddon has ~30,000 rooms ...

Hm, I made my own research and the TMS site says that:

World Size: Gigantic (20001+ rooms)

Weird! (but in a good way.)

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38576.0.html

Quote from: VanthThere are 29198 rooms, 21622 objects, and 7876 npcs in the game.

Quote from: Nyr on May 16, 2012, 08:38:31 AM

Quote from: FightClub on May 15, 2012, 10:59:41 PM
I'm glad you all decided to make a lot of your base rage quit with the two year prior announcement, then decided to cancel that six years later. Good decision.

Wait, how are you not permanently banned from the GDB?  Begone, foul creature!

Hah! <3  :D

Quote from: Winterless on May 16, 2012, 02:01:09 PM

Quote from: Nyr on May 16, 2012, 08:38:31 AM

Quote from: FightClub on May 15, 2012, 10:59:41 PM
I'm glad you all decided to make a lot of your base rage quit with the two year prior announcement, then decided to cancel that six years later. Good decision.

Wait, how are you not permanently banned from the GDB?  Begone, foul creature!

Hah! <3  :D

heheh seriously <3 Nyr

What excuse are you guys going to use now to avoid doing work/not update and or modernize the current game?  ;D

Just kidding. Volunteer staffing is hardworks.

So when is Arm 2 going to be completed?  I'm starting to get tired of waiting and I've ran out of money to spend on my doomsday armageddon bunker so I may not have enough ammunition and food/water supplies to be able to last through the impending extinction-level event in order to play Armageddon 2 once you guys get the emergency network up and running so we can enjoy the post-apocalyptic playground from the comfort of our underground, concrete and steel reinforced bunkers (with nuclear, biological, and chemical protection of course) without having to venture out into the radiated and pandemic-infested wasteland and waste valuable resources that could be better spent while peacefully perched in our chairs in front of our linked-in computer terminal...
(http://leeuwhondje.tweakdsl.nl/simscc/yuxi-fo3clutter-terminals.png)

I was interested to note that my first reaction was I felt sick.  Probably at seeing someone's bright hopes die.
At least now, for the first time in six years , I can stop worrying about my PCs being snatched untimely from their lives.

Quote from: Karieith on May 16, 2012, 03:14:15 PM
What excuse are you guys going to use now to avoid doing work/not update and or modernize the current game?  ;D

Just kidding. Volunteer staffing is hardworks.

We don't need an excuse. I'm pretty happy with just saying 'no'.

The short, bearded man sheds a tear for all the dursa concepts and stories he has in his proportionally oversized head.

There were/are so many different rumors/stories floating around out there...
What exactly were the issues with WotC?
Are they resolved now?
How were they resolved?
Is staff finished un-Dark-Sun'ing the game?

Quote from: Semper on May 16, 2012, 10:26:14 AM

Quote from: Morgenes on May 16, 2012, 10:23:20 AM
The fact of the matter with code is we have an extremely limited resource with respect to coders.  Arm 2's code base will not be sucking time from any of them but me, and that will be as I feel like it.  So don't expect JavaMUG's engine anytime soon.

Does it take a long time to learn to be a coder? I wouldn't mind volunteering if there are resources to look at and the staff would accept them, but I also don't know anything about code right now.  :D

Programming is a dark, pedantic world full of neckbeards and Lovecraftian lingo.

Once you're in, you can never leave.

I knew someone who started working with diku code. They got a facsimile of Armageddon's emote code working.

I have not heard from them in over a year.

Sorry to hear about Arm2 being cancelled, since it seemed to have great promise and because so much work has been put into it.

Glad to hear Arm1 isn't going to end (because of Arm2), and I hope we'll see Arm2 stuff going into Arm1 where suitable.

Since Arm2 has been scrapped, I just hope this means that Coders and what-have-you just have more material to slowly implement into Arm1 to keep it going and growing.

THERE GOES MY GREAT CENDI IDEA.

I'm happy with arm as it is now. I don't mind that I won't have to deal with cat people either.  :)

Quote from: Adj on May 16, 2012, 07:33:49 PM

Quote from: Akaramu on May 16, 2012, 12:06:54 AM

Quote from: Winterless on May 15, 2012, 11:21:48 PM

Quote from: Jdr on May 15, 2012, 11:21:21 PM
So if Arm 2 is not coming (for now), does that mean we can lose the pretence of peace between the major powers and get back at each others' throats again?

+1

+1

+1

I don't understand why ya'll linked these things in your mind.

Quote from: Adj on May 16, 2012, 07:33:49 PM

Quote from: Akaramu on May 16, 2012, 12:06:54 AM

Quote from: Winterless on May 15, 2012, 11:21:48 PM

Quote from: Jdr on May 15, 2012, 11:21:21 PM
So if Arm 2 is not coming (for now), does that mean we can lose the pretence of peace between the major powers and get back at each others' throats again?

+1

+1

+1

Like...half of you weren't even around for any of the overt stuff (see:  Copper War).  Nothing is changing overnight, though, as said here before, and we're also not changing our staffing methods at this time.  We didn't announce shit was hitting the fan prior to previous HRPTs (except to warn about the HRPT itself once it became more imminent).

Put on your sandcloth and head on towards RP town and just have fun.

Dear Staff:

New player races and areas would be super fun cool.

Remove the mantis from their valley and replace them with the lizard race community or something as a playable race.

If anything I think we should reduce the size of the game, rather than expand it.

Quote from: Nyr on May 16, 2012, 08:24:55 PM

Quote from: Adj on May 16, 2012, 07:33:49 PM

Quote from: Akaramu on May 16, 2012, 12:06:54 AM

Quote from: Winterless on May 15, 2012, 11:21:48 PM

Quote from: Jdr on May 15, 2012, 11:21:21 PM
So if Arm 2 is not coming (for now), does that mean we can lose the pretence of peace between the major powers and get back at each others' throats again?

+1

+1

+1

Like...half of you weren't even around for any of the overt stuff (see:  Copper War).  Nothing is changing overnight, though, as said here before, and we're also not changing our staffing methods at this time.  We didn't announce shit was hitting the fan prior to previous HRPTs (except to warn about the HRPT itself once it became more imminent).

Put on your sandcloth and head on towards RP town and just have fun.

I wasn't being pettish, Nyrface. <3

Quote from: Ktavialt on May 16, 2012, 08:54:41 PM
If anything I think we should reduce the size of the game, rather than expand it.

>:( Blasphemy

To me it isn't about the size of the game world.  There are several areas that probably only get visited once every few RL months by anyone but whirans/drovians/sorcs.  It's about increasing interaction between clans/races/tribes.  If lizard people are going to come up that'd be cool but not if they just stuck to their valley and never left.  If they traveled to 'nak because they worshiped Tek as their Dragon god and had a taste for elven flesh (positive and negative interaction possibilities) then they'd be a cool player race to add.

Personally, I was kind've enamored with the idea of Arm2 starting off with everyone in the same village, learning the ropes, getting a hang of things, and developing a whole new caste system. Then some sort of event or civil war would force the town to faction off into separate entities - forcing players to travel and explore new lands in hopes of finding habitable places to live to build and start new villages.

Quote from: Jdr on May 15, 2012, 11:21:21 PM
So if Arm 2 is not coming (for now), does that mean we can lose the pretence of peace between the major powers and get back at each others' throats again?

Since I was involved with a couple different PCs in the various plots that led to this "pretense of peace" I'd just like to point out that it was entirely a player thing and not a staff thing at all, so it's not like we'd really need staff's permission to start being dicks to each other again. Or be dicks to each other more than we've been.

oh gosh

so many feelings

though with 2.arm gone im hoping the ruling on slave roles might be redefined in the future

happy lutagar

Hmm..I was actually looking forward to Arm 2.0.  Like many, I was excited about the chance to explore a new world and help build the basis of what would eventually become it's defining history for future players.

Dream deferred.  I'm kinda bummed, now.

Not that I do not like Arm 1.0, or feel I've been cheated by our Staff.  I may be on hiatus, but I still love it's current incarnation.

I kinda figured Arm.2 would never come to fruition. I'm happy about it though as I love Arm how it is and can't wait to see new things implemented.

Woot woot!

Yeah, I don't know how many times I thought to myself: If only the efforts weren't being put forth toward Arm 2 and were being put into flushing out a few things and adding a few things to -this- game.

Quote from: A Large Bag on May 17, 2012, 10:49:04 AM
Yeah, I don't know how many times I thought to myself: If only the efforts weren't being put forth toward Arm 2 and were being put into flushing out a few things and adding a few things to -this- game.

This may be a bit of a logical fallacy.  Admittedly, people as a resource added to Armageddon would have resulted in more people working on Armageddon, but that assumes that we needed the extra builders and coders on the current game in the first place.  Without a Reborn project, we would have had no need for the extra people.  We also weren't adding in whole new zones and areas for shiggles (henceforth, "shits and giggles" shall be abbreviated to this term) in the years prior to Reborn's announcement.  We wouldn't have been adding in whole new zones and areas for shiggles had there not been an announcement.  The existence of work on the project doesn't mean a 1:1 conversion of equal work being done on Armageddon.  While none of us possess a TARDIS, my own best guess is that we would simply have had a different focus for the past five and a half years, and not 9000 new rooms added to the game (some without descriptions, but all without the flags, scripts, etc that are on rooms in the current game).  

However, coding focus from any coding staff would have been directly on the game as it exists now.  This by no means points to the possibility of more code, but it is what it is.  Actually, I'd almost hazard a bet that some code in Arm 1 wouldn't have been done without considering it for Arm 2 or using Arm 2 ideas to implement scripts instead of hard code.  

We could have already had pee code for mounts by now.  :(

Quote from: Nyr on May 17, 2012, 11:43:32 AM
We could have already had pee code for mounts by now.  :(

See, I didn't even know I wanted this until you said it. >:(

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,43386.0.html

I guess I was hoping something good would come out of all the work done and all the sacrifices made.  It'd just be better if we could go back and forget the idea Arm 2 was ever conceived.

Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on May 17, 2012, 01:48:02 PM
I guess I was hoping something good would come out of all the work done and all the sacrifices made.

I can think of several things that came to fruition largely because "this is something we want to do in Reborn" happened to mesh with "this is something we can actually start on now with current code."

Just retcon dwarves as lizard-people, and NO ONE WILL NOTICE!

What'll we do about muls then?

Quote from: Nyr on May 17, 2012, 02:31:19 PM

Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on May 17, 2012, 01:48:02 PM
I guess I was hoping something good would come out of all the work done and all the sacrifices made.

I can think of several things that came to fruition largely because "this is something we want to do in Reborn" happened to mesh with "this is something we can actually start on now with current code."

We get Teflon, but we don't get to see Mars.  I'm happy with that.  :)

To reiterate what Nyr has said - there are a bunch of changes that happened to this game because of the work that was being done on Arm 2.  A lot of them are staff side tools that players never see but that have made the job of staffing and communicating amongst staff and with players a lot easier and more streamlined. 

Small ideas we had for Arm 2 have found their way in to the game.  We have a website designed and waiting to be 'tested' that we originally were working on for Arm 2 and instead decided to port over the current games info.  Extended subguilds are something we were trialling here as they were one of the things we were looking towards for arm 2, and so on.

Quote from: Nyr on May 17, 2012, 02:31:19 PM

Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on May 17, 2012, 01:48:02 PM
I guess I was hoping something good would come out of all the work done and all the sacrifices made.

I can think of several things that came to fruition largely because "this is something we want to do in Reborn" happened to mesh with "this is something we can actually start on now with current code."

When one weighs the pros and cons, unfortunately the cons outweigh the pros.  Though I appreciate your attempts to put a positive spin on things.  At least things are getting back on track and we can put this mistake behind us.

Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on May 17, 2012, 06:22:35 PM

Quote from: Nyr on May 17, 2012, 02:31:19 PM

Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on May 17, 2012, 01:48:02 PM
I guess I was hoping something good would come out of all the work done and all the sacrifices made.

I can think of several things that came to fruition largely because "this is something we want to do in Reborn" happened to mesh with "this is something we can actually start on now with current code."

When one weighs the pros and cons, unfortunately the cons outweigh the pros.  Though I appreciate your attempts to put a positive spin on things.  At least things are getting back on track and we can put this mistake behind us.

Again, just your opinion. I'm personally very excited about the upcoming code, however long it may take, and think of this as a positive opportunity, at least as a new Staffer.

Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on May 17, 2012, 06:22:35 PM

Quote from: Nyr on May 17, 2012, 02:31:19 PM

Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on May 17, 2012, 01:48:02 PM
I guess I was hoping something good would come out of all the work done and all the sacrifices made.

I can think of several things that came to fruition largely because "this is something we want to do in Reborn" happened to mesh with "this is something we can actually start on now with current code."

When one weighs the pros and cons, unfortunately the cons outweigh the pros.  Though I appreciate your attempts to put a positive spin on things.  At least things are getting back on track and we can put this mistake behind us.

Yeah... I disagree. But that's ok.

Disappointed. :(

I want Arma 1.0 to grow in size. In terms of playerbase, especially.

Fact is, Arma 2.0 woulda sliced up Arma 1.0's playerbase. It may have never recovered.

Now the staff will be working a little more towards adding to Arma 1.0 in a way that will bring in new players.

Huzzah.

I suggest putting an update on the main site for the people who do not read the GDB.

What I'd love to see from all of this is for cities to become more built up.
I was most exited for roof-tops, dense alleyways (think the alleys of Red Storm,
without the *spoliers*)

I'd love to see Allanak and Tuluk with rooftops, and then warrens within the quarters that
snake around the main streets.

But yeah.

Not really miffed either way about Arm 2 being cancelled.

Quote from: Trance on May 18, 2012, 06:57:26 AM
What I'd love to see from all of this is for cities to become more built up.
I'd love to see Allanak and Tuluk with rooftops, and then warrens within the quarters that
snake around the main streets.

Yes, me too.

Quote from: Adj on May 18, 2012, 12:57:13 PM
Arm 2 was just canceled. Business as usual. Does not mean the whole game will change in the blink of an e-

WTF?!?!

There is a request tool?
WTF?!?!

And a THINK command.

Totally new.

THe hell. hemote semote

REALLY?! SWEET!

(http://i.imgur.com/Fwqq0.jpg)

Maybe I'll start playing again! :)

To the staff:  Well done. 

That's for the efforts on 2.arm, for maintaining 1.arm while 2.arm was on-going, and for being able to make the decision to stop 2.arm when you felt it was time to make that decision.  Full kudos and respect from me!  You all are doing a great job from everything that I've heard and seen of late.

Keep up the awesomness.

Quote from: marko on May 18, 2012, 03:06:48 PM
Maybe I'll start playing again! :)

Do iiiiiit!  :D

And then all the coded area already drawn up for 2.Arm was placed on the other side of the Silt Sea and is ready to explore right now, today...

Except it will take 12 more years to find this out for face, because YAY SILT SKIMMERS.

Quote from: bcw81 on May 18, 2012, 03:16:05 PM
And then all the coded area already drawn up for 2.Arm was placed on the other side of the Silt Sea and is ready to explore right now, today...

Except it will take 12 more years to find this out for face, because YAY SILT SKIMMERS.

Magickal Portals

Duh

I will lead a mob to kill all the "witches" who step out of said portals.

Quote from: marko on May 18, 2012, 03:06:48 PM
Maybe I'll start playing again! :)

To the staff:  Well done. 

That's for the efforts on 2.arm, for maintaining 1.arm while 2.arm was on-going, and for being able to make the decision to stop 2.arm when you felt it was time to make that decision.  Full kudos and respect from me!  You all are doing a great job from everything that I've heard and seen of late.

Keep up the awesomness.

You should come back..all the cool kids are doing it ;)

You know, whenever I would hear people talk about how Armageddon Reborn is not going to happen, I would think to myself that they're wrong, that it will happen, and that it will help the game and players in a myriad of ways.  I really never doubted it much, so this announcement really surprises me.  But you know, in the back of my mind I always kinda worried that such a drastic change might be the ultimate downfall of Armageddon as we know it, and wouldn't that be sad for people who have been involved with this game for over a decade now?  Starting an entirely new game while shutting down the old one would have been a gamble, and maybe it's for the best that such a gamble isn't taken.

Many people over the course of years have generated lots of discussions and idea about Arm 2.0.  I think it would be good to not just completely discard all of those ideas, and not just code ideas -- that kind of stuff is great and absolutely necessary, but story ideas and the fiction aspects are important too, while also being a lot easier to implement. But hell, I will still love Armageddon regardless of what happens on the front, and I'm glad to see that most people are positive about this announcement.

Eh, I never figured it was going to happen.

Quote from: jstorrie on May 20, 2012, 05:33:59 AM
Eh, I never figured it was going to happen.

Yeah I think after the first year-long delay I kinda figured it wouldn't happen.

I'm happy as hell, overall. I'm familiar with this world. Anywhere else would really just feel alien. I do hope we can see some of the ideas, particularly the world-based ones, slowly shift to be melded with this world, but in the end, I'm really just ok with what we've got.

Oof! I'm a bit bummed that so much time and energy has gone into Arm 2.0...However, I love the current incarnation of the game and it has felt a bit like there has been less energy put into it for the last...6 years....So to have the staffs focus back on Arm 1.0 would be awesome...but it would be nice to have things shaken up a bit. The game is feeling a little stale. Bring some of that new shiny from 2.0 over!

A couple of points:

1.  As we have mentioned before about Arm 2, there was very little overlap in staff effort on both games.  There was some at an administrative level and a little at the coding level, but the staff's focus (as you have seen it) has been on the current game.  As also mentioned before, there are a host of code, gameworld, request tool, etc. changes made to Arm 1 that have occurred in the past 6 years, some of which would not have occurred without Arm 2.

2.  If you have not played the game for more than 6 years and are recently coming back from a hiatus, it seems to me at least like it'd be difficult to assess the game at all from that point of view.  If it has been "getting a bit stale," it has "always been stale" from your perspective.

Mmm, no I definitely don't think it has always been stale. And I didn't take a six year hiatus.

I guess, there was a whole of activity centered around the end of world plots. It all got very exciting, with the world changing in dramatic ways...quickly and over a fairly short period of time. And then it all slowed right down. Which is fine...But it seems like a bit of a come down. And people like excitement - don't they?

I'm definitely on the side of the people that miss 'staff led plots'. I totally agree with plots being mostly player driven, but in order to add new and exciting things to the core of the Zalanthan world - that takes the staff. Otherwise it gets a bit samey.

It would be refreshing to see some big stuff change in the game. Like...scrap Tuluk! New city on the other side of the silt sea...and silt wars...or anything really...just a new era. Bring back raiders and aggressive d-elves.

I've read enough to think that I am not alone in thinking that the game as has slowed down...so why be defensive about it? It's not a personal attack on staff, it's just an opinion from the perspective of a player. And perhaps a hiatus makes it easier to make a comparison between how it was then and how it is now. Having not been led through it with gradual adjustments change.

I definitely *don't* miss the end-of-the-world plots. They were fun for a while, then it just got to be way too much.

It felt, at times, like an RP-encouraged h/s rather than the RPI we all know and love.

Haha yeah. They were a bit intense and over the top. But I'd quite like to see a smattering of that 'action', just every now and again.

Plus, I missed the rain. Make it rain again. :<

Hey look, anecdote about subjective opinions.

Also the thread has cycled twice already. Maybe closing and stickying it will make people read all the posts that have answered peoples questions and misconceptions.

Quote from: Maso on May 21, 2012, 11:20:28 AM
Mmm, no I definitely don't think it has always been stale. And I didn't take a six year hiatus.

I know, and I did not say you did. I was pointing out that you'd only played the game for a period of time less than 6 years.  I then pointed out that you'd been on hiatus (though not for how long--looks like for 3 of those years).  It's not a bad thing, just a little strange to say that the game has gotten stale due to staff focus on Arm 2 when the vast majority of your experience with the game has been an experience while Arm 2 was in the wings.

Quote
I guess, there was a whole of activity centered around the end of world plots. It all got very exciting, with the world changing in dramatic ways...quickly and over a fairly short period of time. And then it all slowed right down. Which is fine...But it seems like a bit of a come down. And people like excitement - don't they?

Again, back to the hiatus, you've certainly missed at least one HRPT and several other smaller (but significant) events.

Quote
I'm definitely on the side of the people that miss 'staff led plots'. I totally agree with plots being mostly player driven, but in order to add new and exciting things to the core of the Zalanthan world - that takes the staff. Otherwise it gets a bit samey.

Back to hiatus and timing, that staff policy didn't exist for the majority of your play (policy began Feb 2009) and at least one HRPT happened (and several smaller events) since that policy came into being.

Quote
It would be refreshing to see some big stuff change in the game. Like...scrap Tuluk! New city on the other side of the silt sea...and silt wars...or anything really...just a new era. Bring back raiders and aggressive d-elves.

We haven't gotten rid of raiders and aggressive d-elves.  Raiders -- Black Moon was closed before you started playing.  Red Fangs got their clocks cleaned IC.

Quote
I've read enough to think that I am not alone in thinking that the game as has slowed down...so why be defensive about it? It's not a personal attack on staff, it's just an opinion from the perspective of a player. And perhaps a hiatus makes it easier to make a comparison between how it was then and how it is now. Having not been led through it with gradual adjustments change.

I have no issue with people posting their opinions about how they never expected it to happen or feel that the game has shifted focus or whatever, etc.  I'd like to think I'm not being defensive by pointing out that the facts don't really line up with your own experiences.  You've (barring a few months) only known a game that has had a second game in the works.  You've also (due to a hiatus) missed any major events that occurred since the staffing policy changes. 

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 21, 2012, 11:30:10 AM
Hey look, anecdote about subjective opinions.

Also the thread has cycled twice already. Maybe closing and stickying it will make people read all the posts that have answered peoples questions and misconceptions.

Maybe so, but something this big should probably be left open a while (imho).  Maybe after a full week.

Staff input so far.  Please read to keep the same things from coming up again and again.

Quote from: Adhira on May 15, 2012, 10:08:10 PM
Please use this thread to discuss the staff announcement re: Arm 2.

Please keep the conversation civil.  This is not a thread to post complaints, if you have concerns or complaints please direct those to staff via the request tool. If you have questions please post them here and Producers and Admin will endeavour to answer these as best we can.

Quote from: Adhira on May 15, 2012, 10:36:53 PM
The staff that are working on Armageddon 1, or the 'game', have never been working on the other project.  You will not be seeing a sudden drastic change in output of staff etc as every storyteller working on the game has had this game as their sole focus.  Some producer and admin time has been spent on Arm 2 but in the last couple of years it has been minimal, at best.

As far as drastic changes to this game - you won't be seeing that in the immediate future, either.   As stated in the announcement we will be using the copious amount of information and proposals we have for Arm Reborn as well as the work that has been done on building items, npcs etc as a database for this game.  It's entirely possible that you will eventually see some of the things we'd been working on for that game introduced to this one.

We are still bound within the constraints of our heavily modified Diku code.  This allows us to do a lot of things, but there are many things that we would prefer done otherwise that just can't be done, or that the overhead in turns or work vs reward means that we will not be doing them.  Code projects fall in to their own special niche of requiring the manpower of a very limited team to want to work on them.

Plotwise nothing is going to be retconned. It is business as usual. Kanks will not be returning as they are part of the Dark Sun universe etc.

This has not changed how the game is run.  Plots will still be player focused, a lot of things will still be done via the request tool, and so on.

Really we just want to be straight up with everyone and say Arm Reborn with a new game world isn't going to happen.  We hope you're enjoying the game and game world as it is now because that is how it is going to be continuing on for the forseeable future.

Quote from: Adhira on May 15, 2012, 11:07:21 PM
This project has not been 'active' for the last couple of years, apart from the team working on the code base.  The primary drivers of the project are no longer part of the staffing team.  We made this decision based on the fact that our preference was to the existing game world, rather than bringing in a new game world that the majority of people working on the game have not been involved with.

We know this game, we know how to staff it, and we know how to keep it ticking over.

Quote from: Adhira on May 15, 2012, 11:45:02 PM
We're not changing our staffing methods.  We will be continuing on as we have been.  If you've been playing the game and haven't noticed staff involvement in the player originated plots and other things that have been going on then you might want to take a long around and get yourself involved. 

Quote from: Eurynomos on May 16, 2012, 12:09:40 AM
Since you guys are posting so fast -- That is in response to "Player driven plots are well and good, but players can't drive something like the copper wars." They all started with player effort.

Quote from: Morgenes on May 16, 2012, 10:23:20 AM
The fact of the matter with code is we have an extremely limited resource with respect to coders.  Arm 2's code base will not be sucking time from any of them but me, and that will be as I feel like it.  So don't expect JavaMUG's engine anytime soon.

Quote from: Adhira on May 16, 2012, 01:43:01 PM
In answer to the question about whether we might use rooms, ideas etc etc from the Arm 2 proposals/building that has gone on.  I have answered this previously in the post and in the actual announcement in staff announcements. However, I will copy and paste once more:

It is possible that over time we will consider some of the proposed ideas and projects for incorporation to the Armageddon world and we will utilize what we have compiled as an ideas database.

Quote from: Nyr on May 16, 2012, 08:24:55 PM

Quote from: Adj on May 16, 2012, 07:33:49 PM

Quote from: Akaramu on May 16, 2012, 12:06:54 AM

Quote from: Winterless on May 15, 2012, 11:21:48 PM

Quote from: Jdr on May 15, 2012, 11:21:21 PM
So if Arm 2 is not coming (for now), does that mean we can lose the pretence of peace between the major powers and get back at each others' throats again?

+1

+1

+1

Like...half of you weren't even around for any of the overt stuff (see:  Copper War).  Nothing is changing overnight, though, as said here before, and we're also not changing our staffing methods at this time.  We didn't announce shit was hitting the fan prior to previous HRPTs (except to warn about the HRPT itself once it became more imminent).

Put on your sandcloth and head on towards RP town and just have fun.

Quote from: Nyr on May 17, 2012, 11:43:32 AM

Quote from: A Large Bag on May 17, 2012, 10:49:04 AM
Yeah, I don't know how many times I thought to myself: If only the efforts weren't being put forth toward Arm 2 and were being put into flushing out a few things and adding a few things to -this- game.

This may be a bit of a logical fallacy.  Admittedly, people as a resource added to Armageddon would have resulted in more people working on Armageddon, but that assumes that we needed the extra builders and coders on the current game in the first place.  Without a Reborn project, we would have had no need for the extra people.  We also weren't adding in whole new zones and areas for shiggles (henceforth, "shits and giggles" shall be abbreviated to this term) in the years prior to Reborn's announcement.  We wouldn't have been adding in whole new zones and areas for shiggles had there not been an announcement.  The existence of work on the project doesn't mean a 1:1 conversion of equal work being done on Armageddon.  While none of us possess a TARDIS, my own best guess is that we would simply have had a different focus for the past five and a half years, and not 9000 new rooms added to the game (some without descriptions, but all without the flags, scripts, etc that are on rooms in the current game). 

However, coding focus from any coding staff would have been directly on the game as it exists now.  This by no means points to the possibility of more code, but it is what it is.  Actually, I'd almost hazard a bet that some code in Arm 1 wouldn't have been done without considering it for Arm 2 or using Arm 2 ideas to implement scripts instead of hard code. 

We could have already had pee code for mounts by now.  :(

Quote from: Nyr on May 17, 2012, 02:31:19 PM

Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on May 17, 2012, 01:48:02 PM
I guess I was hoping something good would come out of all the work done and all the sacrifices made.

I can think of several things that came to fruition largely because "this is something we want to do in Reborn" happened to mesh with "this is something we can actually start on now with current code."

Quote from: Adhira on May 17, 2012, 05:26:56 PM
To reiterate what Nyr has said - there are a bunch of changes that happened to this game because of the work that was being done on Arm 2.  A lot of them are staff side tools that players never see but that have made the job of staffing and communicating amongst staff and with players a lot easier and more streamlined. 

Small ideas we had for Arm 2 have found their way in to the game.  We have a website designed and waiting to be 'tested' that we originally were working on for Arm 2 and instead decided to port over the current games info.  Extended subguilds are something we were trialling here as they were one of the things we were looking towards for arm 2, and so on.

Quote from: Nyr on May 21, 2012, 11:05:32 AM
A couple of points:

1.  As we have mentioned before about Arm 2, there was very little overlap in staff effort on both games.  There was some at an administrative level and a little at the coding level, but the staff's focus (as you have seen it) has been on the current game.  As also mentioned before, there are a host of code, gameworld, request tool, etc. changes made to Arm 1 that have occurred in the past 6 years, some of which would not have occurred without Arm 2.

2.  If you have not played the game for more than 6 years and are recently coming back from a hiatus, it seems to me at least like it'd be difficult to assess the game at all from that point of view.  If it has been "getting a bit stale," it has "always been stale" from your perspective.

I was a little surprised but not all that disappointed. Taking a chance at trying something bold is how you learn anyway. (At least that's what the crafting system tells me.)

I love the word shiggles.

Mixed feelings.

It was expected, Arm 2 started to have a Duke Nukem Forever feel, no blogs were being updated on it. Was just waiting on the cancellation.

I was really looking forward to the new codebase. And I felt Arm 1 was becoming a little dated. I hate the layout of most cities in Arm.. too many rooms for no reason, too many hotspots for people to sit around in, too many clans, the playerbase becomed diluted. Outside the city it makes sense to have a lot of rooms, to give the illusion of a vast unforgiving desert, but not really in the city. It takes a RL hour or more just to shop for starter things, and a while more to learn where all the shops are (which should already be IC knowledge).

On the other hand, I like the Armageddon theme and how it pulls it off. I didn't really like the Arm 2 theme from what I was seeing, didn't like the creatures much. Dwarves and elves were very interesting.

And regardless, no work on Arm 2 means all the more work can be focused on Arm 1. From my experience GMing RP plots, when you have a pre-set future, with future clans and stuff, you try to minimize the butterfly effect as much as possible. Which means that you tend to disapprove of plots where the player becomes heroes and changes the world.. because you've already determined how the world will be changed. Which makes you limited to becoming only a typical grunt. That's partially why I lost interest over the last few years, I felt it was going to remain static; no new cities or major clans, all existing major organizations being immune to destruction.

But now that you've got a few free staff and released yourself from the chains of Arm 2, it might be worth getting more player driven epic plots together with staff help.

I'm not particularly distraught over the cancellation, but one thing I was looking forward to was the more believable weapons for the setting.

Is there any plan/chance of implementing this in the current game?

Quote from: audrey on May 21, 2012, 10:17:38 PM
And regardless, no work on Arm 2 means all the more work can be focused on Arm 1.

Quote from: Adhira on May 15, 2012, 10:36:53 PM
The staff that are working on Armageddon 1, or the 'game', have never been working on the other project.  You will not be seeing a sudden drastic change in output of staff etc as every storyteller working on the game has had this game as their sole focus.  Some producer and admin time has been spent on Arm 2 but in the last couple of years it has been minimal, at best.

Quote
From my experience GMing RP plots, when you have a pre-set future, with future clans and stuff, you try to minimize the butterfly effect as much as possible. Which means that you tend to disapprove of plots where the player becomes heroes and changes the world.. because you've already determined how the world will be changed.

This is the only thing that hasn't actually been responded to in this thread already.  This is untrue for a few reasons.  One:  Armageddon is hardly a place for heroes.  The hero is the guy with a dagger shoved through his spleen, bleeding out, all because he was going to stand up to the Guild and not pay his protection money for his independent organization this year.  That guy has a place in Zalanthas:  as a reminder to all that being a hero is both difficult and not very murder-y/corruption-y/betrayal-y.  Two:  You obviously weren't around during late 2006 and early 2007.  The things that staff approved then are a testament to disproving your statement.  I won't get into that too much, but suffice it to say that it took away from the definite low-magick feel of the game that we have since decided to preserve more carefully.

Quote
Which makes you limited to becoming only a typical grunt. That's partially why I lost interest over the last few years, I felt it was going to remain static; no new cities or major clans, all existing major organizations being immune to destruction.

Bolded for emphasis because:

QuoteI hate the layout of most cities in Arm.. too many rooms for no reason, too many hotspots for people to sit around in, too many clans, the playerbase becomes diluted.

As you weren't around during the times I mentioned and maybe haven't seen what has happened since then, I'd like to point out that your feelings are not based on fact.  Maybe you wanted new cities; no, we weren't going to build a new city.  You just pointed out above that you were dissatisfied with player dilution.  We shared the same concerns, so no, no new cities then.  No new clans?  You also thought there were too many clans.  We shared the same concerns, so no, no new clans--erm, wait, we did create two new clans.  :)  Jaxa Pah and Akai Sjir were created to flesh out a couple of actual city elf tribes.  All existing major organizations being immune to destruction?  Immune is such a strong word, and yes, you're correct in that the major organizations probably have enough resources to avoid wholesale destruction.  However, Borsail certainly was decimated during the gith invasion (not destroyed, but hopefully you can accept that it is at least a little surprising).   The Benjari went extinct.  The halflings don't seem to be around anymore.  The Seik had to get roommates.  The Red Fangs may have thought they were immune to destruction.  (Hint:  they were not.)

Quote
But now that you've got a few free staff

Quote from: Nyr on May 17, 2012, 11:43:32 AM
This may be a bit of a logical fallacy.  Admittedly, people as a resource added to Armageddon would have resulted in more people working on Armageddon, but that assumes that we needed the extra builders and coders on the current game in the first place.  Without a Reborn project, we would have had no need for the extra people.  We also weren't adding in whole new zones and areas for shiggles (henceforth, "shits and giggles" shall be abbreviated to this term) in the years prior to Reborn's announcement.  We wouldn't have been adding in whole new zones and areas for shiggles had there not been an announcement.  The existence of work on the project doesn't mean a 1:1 conversion of equal work being done on Armageddon.  While none of us possess a TARDIS, my own best guess is that we would simply have had a different focus for the past five and a half years, and not 9000 new rooms added to the game (some without descriptions, but all without the flags, scripts, etc that are on rooms in the current game). 

Quote
and released yourself from the chains of Arm 2, it might be worth getting more player driven epic plots together with staff help.

You mean like flooding a major city (and responding to the flood of the major city), making a volcano (and responding to the making of the volcano), forcing players to pick and choose between saving one small settlement or another from a gith invasion, assisting in responding to a conflict between two tribes resulting in one's demise...things like that that were player driven?

Yep, if only the staff that weren't working on Arm 2 hadn't been working on Arm 2, we could've done some of that...   ;)

I missed pretty much everything Nyr just mentioned above and have only been playing again for the last 4 months or so.  Maybe I've just been lucky but I've noticed a lot of staff love and attention to clans, more than I remember from playing before.  Of course I can't mention any of it specifically because it's all still to fresh so feel free to keep claiming the game or the policy on player driven plots is hurting the game.

To put things into perspective, even when staff led plots were the norm (this is before the end of the world stuff, that shit sounds crazy) it could have a feeling of just being the next nilazi/elemental/demon/NPC sorceror of the month.  Most PCs had very little idea of what was actually going on other than it was all magickal and stuff.  In the end very little changed for your PC except that maybe a few people died.  I also have the impression (and could be wrong) that back in the day staff were much more likely to bring the hammer down early on player led stuff that conflicted with the meta-plots rather than letting them start to develop.

That's tangential to my point, Nyr :P

I'm not saying that staff hasn't put any work on Armageddon. Certainly there's always been plenty of events going on.

I'm saying that Arm has more of a... passive feeling. As in players just react to whatever the game throws at them. There's not really a feeling that hey, I can put 400 hours in this game, assemble a group of non-sponsored mundanes, wage economic war on Kurac, and eventually leave some kind of physical effect on Kurac like blown up a shop which can never be used by players. Of course, this can't be done solo, otherwise it's not much of a multiplayer RP game, but at least a large enough motivated group might be able to do something.

Right now it feels like anything that changes in the world done by players just coincided with what the staff were planning anyway. And I feel that a part of that has been because you've got a large plot already at work. Now that there is no major plot to tie the game to, the plot is more open, and there's room for players to change things.

I'm not sure how to say it, but I feel that the game is more focused in creating a PvP (not necessarily PK) environment to thrive in. As in House A hates House B, both have their political conflicts, both hire PCs to sabotage the other, and the gameplay & player perspective is based around that. Like I don't see any way for a mundane player to affect House A-B relations or actually have any kind of impact on the environment.

Of course, I can't really see how much of the game is player run, so I'd appreciate stories of scenes which were run by players :) I don't really mean PC templars or nobles or sorcerors, since they're not really much different than the staff in that they're expected to keep a plot running.

Not that it really affects me either way, I just log in because it's the only way of watching the game. I just think that it feels less 'scripted' that way.

Quote from: audrey on May 22, 2012, 02:30:23 PM
I can put 400 hours in this game, assemble a group of non-sponsored mundanes, wage economic war on Kurac, and eventually leave some kind of physical effect on Kurac like blown up a shop which can never be used by players.

On the OOC side, part of that is because even without Staff there are ten other players, who all put in 40 hours each, any of whom might find it in their interest to backstab you by taking the side of a House that is IC hundreds of years old instead of you.

Aiming to challenge Kurac is not like challenging Facebook. It is like challenging a major organized crime family. The economic, social, and downright survival interests of thousands of people hinge on Kurac's continuance. Trying to spit in their eye might not go over too well.  Zalanthas is an illiterate society, and is therefore very dependent on "face" and social status. Making Kurac look weak does not just threaten their money supply. It threatens their lives, and they will respond appropriately.

Are they all-knowing? No. But they have a small army, a sense of history that your character does not (literacy, there), special forces, allies, and more coin than you can count. Kurac is not half-a-dozen players and a couple of staff. Waging "economic" war on them in a modern sense (under the rule of law, where no one just stabs you) is not possible. Attempts to do so without securing equally powerful allies (who are securable, given time, money, prestige, and so forth) will make a PC a splattered by on a windshield.  It will make a dozen PC's into bugs spattered on a windshield.

If you can secure those allies? Then (I believe) staff would be more than happy to help the world respond appropriately.

In other words, despite your feelings, you can do exactly what you claim cannot be done.

$.02

P.S. It's just really, really hard.

P.P.S. Read right, this is the blueprints for hurting Kurac. I knew there was a reason literacy is not allowed!

Quote from: audrey on May 22, 2012, 02:30:23 PM
That's tangential to my point, Nyr :P

Well, your point seemed tangential to Armageddon Reborn's cancellation.  No harm, no foul.  :)  I won't quote-mine this time, but please note that everything I'm about to write can be backed up by previous posts on the GDB.

Quote
I'm saying that Arm has more of a... passive feeling. As in players just react to whatever the game throws at them. There's not really a feeling that hey, I can put 400 hours in this game, assemble a group of non-sponsored mundanes, wage economic war on Kurac, and eventually leave some kind of physical effect on Kurac like blown up a shop which can never be used by players. Of course, this can't be done solo, otherwise it's not much of a multiplayer RP game, but at least a large enough motivated group might be able to do something.

Eh...I don't even feel that motivated to address this point.  It's your feeling.  It's always difficult to discuss people's feelings.  However, in actuality, this is possible, regardless of how you feel.  Just like my problem with answering your point is "motivation," your problem with accomplishing the task you've suggested is "motivation."  Get off yer bum and do it.  Better yet, toss in a character report about how your PC wants to do this, then have the gumption to stick to it for more than a couple of weeks (because you can't simultaneously have massive changes to the gameworld and immediate changes to the gameworld, sorry).

Quote
Right now it feels like anything that changes in the world done by players just coincided with what the staff were planning anyway.  And I feel that a part of that has been because you've got a large plot already at work. Now that there is no major plot to tie the game to, the plot is more open, and there's room for players to change things.

(http://i.imgur.com/NnlvL.jpg)

When we did have a "large plot" already at work, the staffer in charge of that plot specifically stated in 2007 that there was no "one plot," nor any predetermined ending and winner.  It was also stated that we were watching what was happening with players and thinking about how to react to that and have that influence other things.  In 2009, that same staffer stated (w/r/t the HRPT) that the majority of what would happen/where it happened was driven, directed, and influenced by players on the whole.  In 2010, another staffer made it clear that the HRPT in 2009 wrapped up the "large plot" of which you speak.

So even when that existed, it wasn't "one plot," it wasn't predetermined, and while staff were involved, it was largely influenced by and dependent on players.  Any feelings you had there were not backed up by staff position or reality, just perception.

Quote
I'm not sure how to say it, but I feel that the game is more focused in creating a PvP (not necessarily PK) environment to thrive in. As in House A hates House B, both have their political conflicts, both hire PCs to sabotage the other, and the gameplay & player perspective is based around that.

translation:  the game is AWESOME

Quote
Like I don't see any way for a mundane player to affect House A-B relations or actually have any kind of impact on the environment.

I'm not Neo in the Matrix or anything, but I can think of a few ways to affect both, and PCs have worked on that.  (Note that eliminating the opposing house/force/tribe/PC is also a resolution to the conflict.)

Quote
Of course, I can't really see how much of the game is player run, so I'd appreciate stories of scenes which were run by players :) I don't really mean PC templars or nobles or sorcerors, since they're not really much different than the staff in that they're expected to keep a plot running.

Not that it really affects me either way, I just log in because it's the only way of watching the game. I just think that it feels less 'scripted' that way.

Why all of this concern over what is run by players?  I've seen that here and in a few other posts.  The sentiment runs like this:

"Well, if THIS big thing wasn't entirely written, scripted, and directed by PCs, starring PC # 1 and PC #2, and produced by the PC company, it's obvious players do not have a role in developing plots!"
"Big thing happened that players were involved in?  Obviously, players weren't involved in it; staff were going to do it anyway and players just came along for the ride."
"You mean to tell me this big event was started by players?  Surely you mean that staff suggested to players to do it and that's why they did it, all to maintain the illusion that the players can do plots!"

Or, to put it in visual form:

(http://i.imgur.com/WH8qI.jpg) 

This goes out to all of you peeps:  this isn't a competition, it's a collaboration...and the relationship between player plots and staff involvement is symbiotic.  Players work together to make things happen, and they work together with staff to make things happen.  That's all that needs to be said.  Live with it and enjoy it...or don't!  That's fine by us.  We're going to keep trucking along; you're welcome to come play, too!

Quote from: Nyr on May 22, 2012, 03:43:24 PM
This goes out to all of you peeps:  this isn't a competition, it's a collaboration...and the relationship between player plots and staff involvement is symbiotic.  Players work together to make things happen, and they work together with staff to make things happen.  That's all that needs to be said.  Live with it and enjoy it...or don't!  That's fine by us.  We're going to keep trucking along; you're welcome to come play, too!

This took me a long time to figure out, and once I did figure it out, I started to have a lot more fun with the game.  Staff are just people playing the game like you.  We're all in this together, and we all rely on each other to make shit work.  We're all people who like stories, and we all want to make cool ones.

However, pre-figureing that out?  I can totally see where people are coming from - players can have a feeling of powerlessness because we're raised in a modern YOU RULE society, and Zalanthas is an archaic EAT SHIT AND DIE COMMONER society, so there's a massive disconnect.  Plus, Zalanthan morals are rather far off from our own modern ideals and such. 

As a fake example: Kurac slaughters a crew who infringed on their spice profits, that crew gets upset and says KURAC IS TOO STRONG I CAN'T DO ANYTHING, but in reality, they just didn't take into account that Kurac is quite literally about as strong as the Colombian cartels, and employs similar tactics at times.  And even if the wanna-bes had been communicating with staff, they'd feel shut down and ignored when told 'No, you can't do x, or y, sorry.' 

In regards to plots - and them being player driven now.

I can completely understand many of the decisions the staff has made, including this one. While the high-magick world upside down stuff was exciting for a bit, it did get tedious and spoiled the atmosphere of the game as we knew it. I'm really glad things have taken a step backwards.

I also agree that players, with the right determination, planning and teamwork, can drive some really interesting plot lines. They can do cool stuff that effects their city, the relationships of the people around them, trade and politics. But there seems a limitation on what a character (not player) can do. Obviously, a regular Zalanthan character cannot control things such as the natural world, what lies beneath the silt sea, the existence of copper deposits, the movements of giants etc.

These scenarios also provide great entertainment value for the player base. They manifest themselves with mystery that the characters need to solve, investigate and discover - because they don't know anything about it...because they didn't start it.

What I would really like to know is....Can these things still happen? If a player thinks up something cool (not to do with their character), would the staff look at implementing it? If I'm honest, I don't think this set up would work, because it would suck for the player - there'd be no mystery to them. Will the staff not even still consider small plots that start with events controlled by 'nature'? Because there are just some types of plots (small to large, magickal to completely mundane), that are entirely out of reach of the playable inhabitants of Zalanthas.

The best part about Armageddon, for me, is the mystery. Player driven plots kind of lack that sense of the unknown...

Quote from: Adhira on May 15, 2012, 11:45:02 PMIf you've been playing the game and haven't noticed staff involvement in the player originated plots and other things that have been going on then you might want to take a long around and get yourself involved. 

Quote from: Nyr on May 16, 2012, 08:24:55 PMNothing is changing overnight, though, as said here before, and we're also not changing our staffing methods at this time.  We didn't announce shit was hitting the fan prior to previous HRPTs (except to warn about the HRPT itself once it became more imminent).

Put on your sandcloth and head on towards RP town and just have fun.

My post wasn't really about overnight changes due to the cancellation. And more just a general enquiry. I thought, since it kind of fitted with this conversation that it might be appropriate here. But I can move it if you like?

It hasn't really been answered by those quotes though.

Specifically:

Quote from: Maso on May 22, 2012, 04:20:34 PMBut there seems a limitation on what a character (not player) can do. Obviously, a regular Zalanthan character cannot control things such as the natural world,

but they can explore it

Quote
what lies beneath the silt sea,

but they can try to get there (lol)

Quotethe existence of copper deposits,

but they can look for them

Quotethe movements of giants etc.

but they can try to influence them

Hopefully you see the point here?  The stuff players do and the stuff players are interested in should be what determines the avenues that staff take for response in the virtual world.

Quote
The best part about Armageddon, for me, is the mystery. Player driven plots kind of lack that sense of the unknown...

If an HRPT of the scope of the last one doesn't impress you, I don't think much will.

Is this implying that a group of characters making a concerted effort to find metal deposits may actually lead to staff adding such a thing to the gameworld?

Quote from: lordcooper on May 22, 2012, 04:50:44 PM
Is this implying that a group of characters making a concerted effort to find metal deposits may actually lead to staff adding such a thing to the gameworld?

I believe it's been stated by staff that they have a pretty good idea of the rest of the non-coded world, and would simply need to code it up if it became necessary.  I assume if players were on the right track, it would be coded in.

I don't have a source.

Quote from: Nyr on May 22, 2012, 09:16:26 AM
The halflings don't seem to be around anymore. 

glances again..

Quote from: Nyr on May 22, 2012, 09:16:26 AM
The halflings don't seem to be around anymore. 

once more..

Quote from: Nyr on May 22, 2012, 09:16:26 AM
The halflings don't seem to be around anymore. 

Back to a thought...

I may still STRONGLY believe Arm needs a new -dedicated- raiding clan and some areas in the game need to be fleshed out more.. But I'll be a damn fool if I think the game is lousy, lacking or have any inkling that staff don't help out and push / handle plot stuff.

Seen it first hand. It happens. So be happy.

Quote from: lordcooper on May 22, 2012, 04:50:44 PM
Is this implying that a group of characters making a concerted effort to find metal deposits may actually lead to staff adding such a thing to the gameworld?

That question seemed pretty rhetorical.

Is this implying that a group of characters making a concerted effort to take over Tuluk may actually lead to staff letting them achieve success in the gameworld?
Is this implying that a group of characters making a concerted effort to destroy everything in Luir's may actually lead to staff letting them be successful?
Is this implying that a group of characters making a concerted effort to find the Lost Treasure of Amos the Great may actually lead to staff adding such a thing in the gameworld?

You can look all you want, doesn't mean you'll find it.  You can try to take over Tuluk if you want, doesn't mean you'll succeed.  You can try to destroy everything in Luir's, doesn't mean it's not already a shithole.  Your desire to do something does not necessarily mean that you should succeed. 

What'a a metal deposit?

Is that a euphemism for a noble's finger?

Quote from: Yam on May 22, 2012, 05:10:34 PM
What'a a metal deposit?

Is that a euphemism for a noble's finger?

Think lower.   ;)

Quote from: Nyr on May 22, 2012, 05:06:24 PM

Quote from: lordcooper on May 22, 2012, 04:50:44 PM
Is this implying that a group of characters making a concerted effort to find metal deposits may actually lead to staff adding such a thing to the gameworld?

That question seemed pretty rhetorical.

Is this implying that a group of characters making a concerted effort to take over Tuluk may actually lead to staff letting them achieve success in the gameworld?
Is this implying that a group of characters making a concerted effort to destroy everything in Luir's may actually lead to staff letting them be successful?
Is this implying that a group of characters making a concerted effort to find the Lost Treasure of Amos the Great may actually lead to staff adding such a thing in the gameworld?

You can look all you want, doesn't mean you'll find it.  You can try to take over Tuluk if you want, doesn't mean you'll succeed.  You can try to destroy everything in Luir's, doesn't mean it's not already a shithole.  Your desire to do something does not necessarily mean that you should succeed. 

The key word there was may.  Success definitely shouldn't be guaranteed, but I have been under the impression (hopefully falsely!) that these things flat out weren't possible.  The question wasn't rhetorical, snark, meant as an insult, or anything other than a direct question.  I'm unsure why you automatically assume I had another agenda here.  Can I try again?

If a group of characters make a concerted effort to find metal deposits, is there a chance this may actually lead to staff adding such a thing to the gameworld?
If a group of characters make a concerted effort to take over Tuluk, could this potentially lead to staff letting them achieve success in the gameworld?
If a group of characters make a concerted effort to destroy everything in Luir's, might staff actually let them be successful?
If a group of characters makie a concerted effort to find the Lost Treasure of Amos the Great, would staff consider adding such a thing in the gameworld?

These are all things I didn't think were likely to occur, let alone possible.  I'm pretty sure I'm not alone here.  If you're implying that these things could actually happen (or even that staff actually want players to attempt things like this) then that's pretty awesome and shows that I (if nobody else) underestimated the extent to which staff are willing to support plots and let players effect the gameworld.  So, is that what you're saying?

Find out IC, by playing, or by asking your relevant staff. We're hesitant to say yes specifically to hypothetical scenarios tossed up on the GDB with no actual work in the game itself.  We've said that we're supportive of reacting to (and working with/against) player plans/plots many a time. We shouldn't have to keep hashing this out every few months.

Go and do.