Compared to RL history, where exactly is Zalanthas? I'm having a trouble sorting it in and having looked through a couple of comments here, I'm not sure if my views agree with those of the creators (or perhaps they do).
Someone recently claimed that, judging from weapons and armour, Zalanthas is basically in early stages of the agricultural revolution. I for one would place it somewhere between the end of early middle ages and the rise of Egyptians. Clearly there were no canalisation systems (still a little puzzled how it'd work without large amounts of water), huge monuments, organised and uniformed military, Streets of Poets, etc. during the end of the harvester and hunter period. To me it always appeared like the classics (Greco-Roman Period) minus metal minus water.
You could say that this is up to my interpretation and non-correspondent to, say, European history, though I think it is important in terms of visualisation of said items. A stone knife made by a cavemen would look somewhat different from the one you'd cut out with modern lasers.
The problem is that Zalanthas can't be set into a specific Earth time. Yes, there's math. Not uber complex math. Yes, there are people who can make wagons. Not many. Yes, there are fine gems that a few can make into really purdy stuff.
Are guns and such likely? No. Plus, there's not much of a sewer system. The Egyptians had one, if I'm not mistaken.
Uh..There's a pretty crazy sewer system in Allanak at least. Shit-pipes and all.
Quote from: Reiloth on April 20, 2009, 08:16:44 PM
Uh..There's a pretty crazy sewer system in Allanak at least. Shit-pipes and all.
Not MUCH. It's not complex like ours, and there's not one in Tuluk.... That anyone knows of.
Quote from: tortall on April 20, 2009, 08:12:49 PM
Are guns and such likely? No. Plus, there's not much of a sewer system. The Egyptians had one, if I'm not mistaken.
I think Romans were the first who had something similar to a sewer, albeit not underground.
As for guns, it really depends on what we'd consider firearms. The Chinese had rockets for ages, but they weren't exactly modern sniper rifles. Do we have basic explosives?
The problem with comparing to earth history Alice, is that Zalanthas isn't the planet earth. It doesn't have our ecosystem, or our geology, or water-to-land ratio. It isn't supported by the same solar system, it isn't subject to the same gravity or any other kind of thing. We name the rocks similar names, because the *players* are human and it helps to have reference points. But Zalanthan granite isn't Terran granite. Zalanthan mud isn't Terran mud. Zalanthan water isn't Terran water.
There -are- explosives in the game. There is also magick in the game. There are ratlons in the game, there is a planet that is -primarily- desert in the game. There are psionics in the game. It can only cause frustration if you try to compare to earth and real life.
Zalanthas has its own cultural evolution, and it cannot be compared to earth's cultural evolution, because it possesses things that earth doesn't possess, and lacks things earth has.
^---- That's what I was trying to say. Thanks Lizzie. :-D
Quote from: alicedavignon on April 20, 2009, 08:27:10 PM
Quote from: tortall on April 20, 2009, 08:12:49 PM
Are guns and such likely? No. Plus, there's not much of a sewer system. The Egyptians had one, if I'm not mistaken.
I think Romans were the first who had something similar to a sewer, albeit not underground.
As for guns, it really depends on what we'd consider firearms. The Chinese had rockets for ages, but they weren't exactly modern sniper rifles. Do we have basic explosives?
Romans did have a fantastic sewer system that was underground, lined with marble floors to ensure a smooth flow. They also had flushing toilets, hot and cold running water and underfloor heating.
Zalanthas always wasn't always a desert planet, at least there's reason to believe so.
Metalworking and such are ancient arts. Just because metal isn't proliferated doesn't mean the art is new, merely the basic resources are limited. The fact there's a giant steel dragon is a testament at least to the metallurgy technology level.
I'd say Zalanthas is rather quite advanced, but merely hindered from flourishing in the sense of older cultures by the natural environment.
Quote from: BuNutzCola on April 20, 2009, 10:14:22 PM
I'd say Zalanthas is rather quite advanced, but merely hindered from flourishing in the sense of older cultures by the natural environment.
Absolutely agreed.
I disagree with a lot of lizzie said in a sense. From what I understand from her comments it's something like this. Arm is not Earth, therefore Arm's development cannot be visualized and explanation logically. I believe Arm is indepth and detailed enough to allow some semblance of logic and common sense into the system.
The way I'd like to think about it myself, is that you have to remember that Zalanthas is an apocolyptic world. Meaning there was once the "Empire of Men", with magicks, wizards, water, metals, and who knows how many different discoveries. Then the dragon came and the culture suffered to a point of never really fully recovering. Everything changed. Humongoes amount of things got forgotten, some due to death, others due to lack of necessary components, or even simple censure.
So I'd place the Zalanthas armageddon at somewhere around emerging from the stone age, which people were driven from a rennaisance age thousands of years ago by a not so natural a calamity.
There are alot of roads in Zalanthas, some of them are in areas which is populated by desert elves who ... wouldnt even really use them roads. Conclusion? Those roads were built 'before' the desert elf arrival (or them turning into the way they are now). I dont even think North Road was built after the dragon, I think it was built before it, and then simply maintained.
Quote from: SmashedTregil on April 20, 2009, 11:16:32 PM
I disagree with a lot of lizzie said in a sense. From what I understand from her comments it's something like this. Arm is not Earth, therefore Arm's development cannot be visualized and explanation logically. I believe Arm is indepth and detailed enough to allow some semblance of logic and common sense into the system.
The way I'd like to think about it myself, is that you have to remember that Zalanthas is an apocolyptic world. Meaning there was once the "Empire of Men", with magicks, wizards, water, metals, and who knows how many different discoveries. Then the dragon came and the culture suffered to a point of never really fully recovering. Everything changed. Humongoes amount of things got forgotten, some due to death, others due to lack of necessary components, or even simple censure.
So I'd place the Zalanthas armageddon at somewhere around emerging from the stone age, which people were driven from a rennaisance age thousands of years ago by a not so natural a calamity.
There are alot of roads in Zalanthas, some of them are in areas which is populated by desert elves who ... wouldnt even really use them roads. Conclusion? Those roads were built 'before' the desert elf arrival (or them turning into the way they are now). I dont even think North Road was built after the dragon, I think it was built before it, and then simply maintained.
It would be a whole lot of fun to have a character try to answer those questions in game. Much more fun than looking for the answers ooc.
Frankly, most people ic probably have no idea.
Zalanthas used to be some Tolkien-esque like world, but was violently altered do to the use of Defiler sorcery and the long presence of the Dragon (look to the origins of Dark Sun and Athus, which the history was based off of). For all we know, this was only the Known World that was affected in such a way, though to maintain it's desert/wasteland clime, I would think that the effects were planet-wide, to varying degrees.
As such (Zalanthas having been close to a typical fantasy world at one time), I personally think that the technological level before the "cataclysm" was fairly close to the level of what we would imagine the early Renaissance era to be, before the advent of the gun. Who knows, maybe there were widespread, early flintlocks or similar firearms available to the Kingdom of Man. The fact that the rudimentary knowledge of explosives has continued to exist (or been (re)discovered) suggests this to me.
In "modern day" Zalanthas, with the natural resources once available having been severely limited, and metal being an extremely rare commodity (or not. Metal will be more widespread in Arm.2, from what the Staff has stated. Perhaps it was as plentiful as it is on Earth, before the Dragon, and the beast somehow hid or destroyed access to it to keep his slaves in line), I would think it's a mixture of the "Ancient" Renaissance combined with the "New", Bronze Age level of tools and technology to form it's own unique flavor..which it really is, when all is said and done.
Edit: Meh. SmashedTregil basically said what I did, in less words.
834, AD.
I think everyone's already said what I wanted to say.
Just wanted to add that I think Zalanthans are more advanced in other forms of technology. Obsidian working & wood working, definitely. They're forced to rely on crappy resources as weapons and tools. Hell, they made thousands of little obsidian pieces and huge fricking weapons out of stone. Terrans certainly haven't been able to do that throughout history.
I wouldn't say that they're stone agers. As the name of the game suggests, it's more of a post-apocalypse wasteland. Earth hasn't really had that anywhere in the timeline, so it's hard to compare.
Quote from: staggerlee on April 20, 2009, 11:22:36 PM
It would be a whole lot of fun to have a character try to answer those questions in game. Much more fun than looking for the answers ooc.
Frankly, most people ic probably have no idea.
I would love to see that. The game needs a philosopher/historian character :D
Quote from: SMuz on April 21, 2009, 06:57:56 AM
I think everyone's already said what I wanted to say.
Just wanted to add that I think Zalanthans are more advanced in other forms of technology. Obsidian working & wood working, definitely. They're forced to rely on crappy resources as weapons and tools. Hell, they made thousands of little obsidian pieces and huge fricking weapons out of stone. Terrans certainly haven't been able to do that throughout history.
I wouldn't say that they're stone agers. As the name of the game suggests, it's more of a post-apocalypse wasteland. Earth hasn't really had that anywhere in the timeline, so it's hard to compare.
This is actually the closest to what I'd perceive Zalanthas as. Once again, the fact that there -are- sewers, but strangely enough no catapults or balistas whatsoever, in Allanak makes it a rather advanced civilisation (if you think about it, nobody even had anything similar during the Middle Ages, though Romans did). Even more so, I think that the comparison of Renaissance -> Antique isn't a bad one.
Smashed Tregil:
QuoteI disagree with a lot of lizzie said in a sense. From what I understand from her comments it's something like this. Arm is not Earth, therefore Arm's development cannot be visualized and explanation logically. I believe Arm is indepth and detailed enough to allow some semblance of logic and common sense into the system.
You're not understanding my comments then and in fact, judging from the rest of your post, you're agreeing 100% with everything I said.
Arm's development most certainly can be visualize and explained logically. As long as you don't try to compare it with earth. Arm IS indepth and detailed enough to allow some semblance of logic and common sense into the system. Earth is ALSO detailed and indepth enough to allow some semblance of logic and common sense into its system. However, Earth and Zalanthas are not comparable worlds.
It's like saying, the human being is an animal, and can be explained logically on the spectrum of animal science charts. The one-eyed jellyfish is an animal, and can be explained logically on the spectrum of animal charts. So let's compare the two and come to some kind of conclusion of why human civilization is so fucked up and the jellyfish's civilization is unknown.
You'd say HUH? Which is exactly what I'm saying about trying to compare a fantasy world containing fantasy elements that are unknown and non-existent and impossible in the real world, with an actual planet containing actual elements of change and evolution. You can contrast the two. But you can't compare them. The only thing they have in common, is that they are worlds, and each world is populated. That's your comparison. That's all there is. Everything else is a divergence or an unknown.
Perhaps you're just trying to use the word "compare" incorrectly? Compare: to find things in common. Contrast: to explore the differences.
I like steampunk
Quote from: mansa on April 21, 2009, 12:01:37 PM
I like steampunk
Cyberpunk is cooler, though I don't think my character will be able to construct anything decent from sinew wires.
Quote from: SMuz on April 21, 2009, 06:57:56 AM
Quote from: staggerlee on April 20, 2009, 11:22:36 PM
It would be a whole lot of fun to have a character try to answer those questions in game. Much more fun than looking for the answers ooc.
Frankly, most people ic probably have no idea.
I would love to see that. The game needs a philosopher/historian character :D
Might want to consider the Irofel bardic circle (in the north) or a quirky merchant/noble (in the south).
Tech level? Post-apoc. In fact, I've often thought that Zalanthas was 20th century earth level before the dragon's arrival. One big nasty defiling dragon and the world just dries up. Oceans, rainforests... the lot. I hope one day to have a PC who finds Steinal. And i hope to find a subway under it.
or the Statue of Liberty.
Quote from: 5 day lifespan on April 21, 2009, 01:10:45 PM
In fact, I've often thought that Zalanthas was 20th century earth level before the dragon's arrival.
I actually imagine it like this and always have done. When I first started I never read anything in the docs that suggested otherwise so it kinda stuck. Even though it's probably, maybe wrong.
(http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/planetoftheapes/images/4/42/Statue_of_Liberty.JPG)
This would make my day.
Quote from: Thorg on April 21, 2009, 12:55:00 PM
Quote from: SMuz on April 21, 2009, 06:57:56 AM
Quote from: staggerlee on April 20, 2009, 11:22:36 PM
It would be a whole lot of fun to have a character try to answer those questions in game. Much more fun than looking for the answers ooc.
Frankly, most people ic probably have no idea.
I would love to see that. The game needs a philosopher/historian character :D
Might want to consider the Irofel bardic circle (in the north) or a quirky merchant/noble (in the south).
Or House Negean in Tuluk.
QuoteHouse Negean is responsible for the recording the history of Muk Utep and his city
Quote from: alicedavignon on April 20, 2009, 08:27:10 PM
Quote from: tortall on April 20, 2009, 08:12:49 PM
Are guns and such likely? No. Plus, there's not much of a sewer system. The Egyptians had one, if I'm not mistaken.
I think Romans were the first who had something similar to a sewer, albeit not underground.
As for guns, it really depends on what we'd consider firearms. The Chinese had rockets for ages, but they weren't exactly modern sniper rifles. Do we have basic explosives?
Actually sewers date back much earlier then Rome. The civilization that sprung up in the Indus Valley in 2600BCE had complex sewer systems. The early Crete civilization also had sewers.
So sewers really are not that advanced or far-fetched for an ancient civilization. It just takes a large organized society with a need to have sanitation in large population centers. Our ancient ancestors were not retarded cave men as many people seem to believe.
What kind of irks me is that I've seen no actual use for the Allanaki sewers except as a place for baddies to dwell and the occasional patrol to go clear out or rinther to stumble upon after falling down The Well. Of course it is most likely a "Find Out IC" question and that House Jal has all the answers.
I don't believe you can properly equate any historical time period with Zalanthas for many of the reasons stated above, but also because the actual game world is the product of a slow-crawling evolution that has spanned a decade and began as an arbitrary universe thrown together by the hands of children.
As both its members and its staff matured, so did the world -- and it began to shape itself into something that resembled a more logical and conceived world. That said, it would be nearly impossible to strap Zalanthas with any label that was derived from the natural result of a sophisticated and detailed world such as Earth. Any moment in Earth's history is infinitely more structured, detailed, and dense than what you would expect to find on Zalanthas.
Can you compare its qualities to other time periods? Sure, but to what end? Zalanthas shares qualities with a number of time periods, real and imagined, that span hundreds or even thousands of years. There are no neat labels or tidy shelves upon which to stack this world, nor are there any sets of rules or standards of measurement that exist on Earth that can be applied.
It's unique, and, thus, the only true unit by which you can measure Zalanthas is itself.
-LoD
This can't be easily translated into our world's level. The lack of metal and scarcity of resources makes things drastically different, as does complications with the system of government. On one hand, they are pre-bronze age, on others, they are nearing the renaissance.
There isn't even a common "technological level" in our world to compare it to, considering that technological levels, just like in the game, were varied and over different time periods depending on that regions advancement. I.e. 3300-1200 BC in the Near East, 3100-700 BC in China, 3100-700 BC in Europe, 800-400 BC in Korea. Iron Age, similarly has a spectrum of 1300 BC to 600 AD. Renaissances also occurred at different places at different times.
So to try and compare Zalanthan technological levels to our own is kinda awkward.
And some characters do do this kind of philosophizing and theorizing in game, and some of their findings are quite remarkable.
We've managed humongous city states, veritable mansion on wheels driven by tame creatures larger than a house, a massive sewage system, at least in Allanak's sense, metallurgy, farming (in an arid land), boats that work on silt, heavy mining, written languages of several forms, bookbinding, an advanced system of banking (even if the currency is very simple) and at least three mega-corporations that span the known world.
LoD makes a great point. Armageddon is constantly evolving and as more and more players become involved (and mature) the very interpretation of the game changes. This is a very fun topic to think about and it is something I'd enjoy discussing at the next player's meeting this fall in Portland. As for my speculation, here goes.
There is evidence of advanced technology in some areas of the game that would equate to Earth periods up to the 15 and 1600's, perhaps further. Those examples are quite rare and very few players will ever have the chance to see them. It is also possible that the person(s) who wrote those zones mistakenly put those "examples" into the game without realizing that they are out of place. I do not believe that though. Aside from that, there are also high-magick influences in the game. Magick in general might be used as a tool to create new technologies. There are also sentient elemental creatures from which few Zalanthans might possibly be able to learn from.
There is no doubt that Zalanthas was more Tolken-esque that it is now in the time before the Dragon arrived. As we've discussed, there is evidence of rivers and forests, long gone since the world was defiled. There are and were, obviously, metal tools and weapons until the resources from which they are made became so rare. But why is this important?
The most advanced civilizations on earth have always been around centers of great resources and trade. The harsh climate on Zalanthas certainly hinders progress toward natural technological development because the baseline standard of living requires more time and effort be spent on essential tasks, leaving little time for research and development.
Ultimately my analysis is that Zalanthan technology has been destroyed and forgotten (mostly) since the advent of the Dragon, rebuilt, and then carefully throttled/hoarded by the rich and powerful to result in what we see now. Furthermore, the level of technology has come to a near standstill because of the environmental and cultural aspects which thwart further development.
Quote from: Sephiroto on April 22, 2009, 01:06:48 AM
The most advanced civilizations on earth have always been around centers of great resources and trade. The harsh climate on Zalanthas certainly hinders progress toward natural technological development because the baseline standard of living requires more time and effort be spent on essential tasks, leaving little time for research and development.
I think this is the most interesting point of this thread so far. Would be quite a shock to have magical space marines coming from outside the Known World one day and taking over Tuluk.
The End will not be from the Dragon. The End will come once a bunch of people from beyond the Known World come with swords, steel armor, and the Dragon on a leash.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on April 20, 2009, 11:04:35 PM
Quote from: BuNutzCola on April 20, 2009, 10:14:22 PM
I'd say Zalanthas is rather quite advanced, but merely hindered from flourishing in the sense of older cultures by the natural environment.
Absolutely agreed.
Quote from: 5 day lifespan on April 21, 2009, 01:10:45 PM
Tech level? Post-apoc. In fact, I've often thought that Zalanthas was 20th century earth level before the dragon's arrival. One big nasty defiling dragon and the world just dries up. Oceans, rainforests... the lot. I hope one day to have a PC who finds Steinal. And i hope to find a subway under it.
or the Statue of Liberty.
Raising a fist to the sky while one the ground upon bent knees a man shouts " You Krath dam dirty dragon" as he peers over a fallen half buried metal statue of a woman with a crown and a torch.
Quote from: Potaje on April 24, 2009, 03:03:24 PM
Quote from: 5 day lifespan on April 21, 2009, 01:10:45 PM
Tech level? Post-apoc. In fact, I've often thought that Zalanthas was 20th century earth level before the dragon's arrival. One big nasty defiling dragon and the world just dries up. Oceans, rainforests... the lot. I hope one day to have a PC who finds Steinal. And i hope to find a subway under it.
or the Statue of Liberty.
Raising a fist to the sky while one the ground upon bent knees a man shouts " You Krath dam dirty dragon" as he peers over a fallen half buried metal statue of a woman with a crown and a torch.
Did you say metal?! *calls the Byn*
I won't attempt to give a comparative era or period - to try and peg down the current technological level of Zalanthas.
However, some would consider the following as the pinnacle of current technology (in different walks of life) on Zalanthas:
Argosies/Wagons
War Chariots
Obsidian Coins
Composite Warbows
Stills
Rope Bridges
Multi-Storey Buildings
Secret doors and tunnels
Explosive materials
Rare antidotes and bandages
Locks, keys, lockpicks
Airtight containers to keep food fresh and cool
Books, scrolls and pages with writing, and writing instruments
Musical Instruments
Tools used by Master Craftsmen
Anything with magickal properties
Anything made from metal
.....just to name a few