We all know how The Way works currently.
A foreign presence contacts your mind. (They contact you, you do not see their sdesc.)
You contact the the man with the unique facial scar with the Way. (You contact them, you see their sdesc.)
You say in Sirihish, "I have never met him before, but, he has a scar on his face shaped like a penis. Find him, and bring him to Lady Borsail NOW!"
Why is it that when someone hits your mind, you have no idea who they are, but they can randomly find your mind and instantly know what you look like?
I am not turning this thread into a debate about "People should roleplay either knowing or not knowing what you look like through the Way."
That has been discussed a million times and I have never seen the staff give a solid answer on if it is ok or not ok to do it.
So, I suggest a code change.
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
You contact a foreign presence's mind with the Way.
If you send them a telepathic message, they will get exactly what they get now.
"The blue-eyed woman sends you a telepathic message blah blah blah."
If you respond, they will get exactly what they get now.
"The green-eyed man sends you a telepathic message blah blah blah."
Simply using, "Contact Bob" should not be enough to instantly know what Bob looks like when you have never met him. If he replies to your Way? Sure, maybe we can assume that him sending you telepathic "energy" or whatever has passed along his "self-image" in his own thoughts or something.
This should help prevent "Way sdesc sniffing" and the age old arguement about people knowing exactly what you look like just by doing "contact name".
If nothing else, can we get an explanation as to why they can contact you and instantly know what you look like, but when they contact you, you have no idea what THEY look like?
Edited to Add for Clarification:
When you send them a message you would get...
"You send a telepathic message to a foreign presence via the Way:"
You would not get their sdesc just by sending them a message. They would have to respond to you in order for you to see their sdesc.
I approve
+1
So would there be no way of knowing if the person contacted was the correct target? With this way it seems the only way to ensure the target is correct would be to use all of their keywords (ex. contact bob.green.eyed.man).
I think that possibility adds rather than detracts.
Have to either code in a starting skill for mindbenders that would allow them to verify their contact target, or exempt them from the message-send requirement for target verification.
Also, are you suggesting that you don't see your target's sdesc at all unless they respond to you? If so, this could have disastrous consequences, especially in situations where your psi target needs information, but is unable to reply.
Also, with abuse of the keyword command, you'd be able to intercept messages for high-value targets without the message-senders knowing it...which seems like a pretty lousy thing to have to force the staff to police.
(http://i.imgur.com/fShUw.gif)
I like this idea.
Quote from: Desertman on November 13, 2012, 11:56:11 AM
We all know how The Way works currently.
A foreign presence contacts your mind. (They contact you, you do not see their sdesc.)
You contact the the man with the unique facial scar with the Way. (You contact them, you see their sdesc.)
You say in Sirihish, "I have never met him before, but, he has a scar on his face shaped like a penis. Find him, and bring him to Lady Borsail NOW!"
This looks like abuse from someone.
QuoteWhy is it that when someone hits your mind, you have no idea who they are, but they can randomly find your mind and instantly know what you look like?
This looks like something we couldn't answer for you until we actually do change something, as it is a mix of code, lore, and mechanics.
Quote
I am not turning this thread into a debate about "People should roleplay either knowing or not knowing what you look like through the Way."
That has been discussed a million times and I have never seen the staff give a solid answer on if it is ok or not ok to do it.
We expect players to be responsible enough not to abuse things, and also to trust us to police things if they get out of control.
Quote
So, I suggest a code change.
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
You contact a foreign presence's mind with the Way.
If you send them a telepathic message, they will get exactly what they get now.
"The blue-eyed woman sends you a telepathic message blah blah blah."
If you respond, they will get exactly what they get now.
"The green-eyed man sends you a telepathic message blah blah blah."
Simply using, "Contact Bob" should not be enough to instantly know what Bob looks like when you have never met him. If he replies to your Way? Sure, maybe we can assume that him sending you telepathic "energy" or whatever has passed along his "self-image" in his own thoughts or something.
This should help prevent "Way sdesc sniffing" and the age old arguement about people knowing exactly what you look like just by doing "contact name".
Should Way sdesc sniffing be a large enough issue to address with code, we can definitely do so. However, the one example you mentioned looks like a case of potential abuse rather than a legitimate usage of psionics, and that is better left to be dealt with by staff on a case by case basis. Additionally, things have changed so that people that want to remain obscured can more easily do so (you can't contact people based on temporary sdesc information provided by cloaks, hoods, etc unless you are in the same room as that person). It is not perfect by any means.
Another thing to consider is that your solution as proposed means more occasions where players contact NPCs accidentally (this already happens several times per day). Instead of poor psionic targeting on the part of the player which could be corrected by simply reading the screen, the player would have no way of knowing whether they reached a PC, NPC, or the right person at all. For playability's sake, that probably wouldn't be feasible.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 12:49:16 PM
This looks like abuse from someone.
I've seen it first hand on MANY occassions with multiple PC's. I would go so far as to say it is the norm rather than the exception. I could be wrong. I can say that I have never ONCE seen a pc say, "Well, I have their mind, but, I've never met them, so I don't know what they look like." Where as I have seen the exact opposite happen more times than I can even remember.
So, I would have to say it is abuse from A LOT of someone's.
Do I need to send player complaints every time I see someone doing this? I would love to say that this would only include people I have seen do this specifically to my own PC, but, sadly it would include multiple third party instances where I have seen people do it to other PC's as well, even people on my own "side", as much as I hate to admit that. I always feel the urge to OOC'ly berrate them when they do it, but, I don't want to be the RP police either.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 12:49:16 PM
This looks like something we couldn't answer for you until we actually do change something, as it is a mix of code, lore, and mechanics.
No worries, it was more of a general "group" question to the playerbase. Almost rhetorical really.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 12:49:16 PM
We expect players to be responsible enough not to abuse things, and also to trust us to police things if they get out of control.
Yup, I absolutely trust you guys to handle business. One of my favorite things about Arm has always been our ability to self police our own roleplay.
I think we just needed confirmation from the staff that sdesc sniffing with the Way IS IN FACT ABUSE.
Now that we have that confirmed, maybe players will stop doing it?
Maybe this should be added to the Help Docs both in game and on the webpage for Contact/The Way? I know currently a very large number of players do not realize this is even considered abuse.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 12:49:16 PM
Should Way sdesc sniffing be a large enough issue to address with code, we can definitely do so. However, the one example you mentioned looks like a case of potential abuse rather than a legitimate usage of psionics, and that is better left to be dealt with by staff on a case by case basis. Additionally, things have changed so that people that want to remain obscured can more easily do so (you can't contact people based on temporary sdesc information provided by cloaks, hoods, etc unless you are in the same room as that person). It is not perfect by any means.
I loved this change. Agreed it isn't perfect, it opened up a whole new can of worms with people instantly doing "Contact black-cloaked" to get your sdesc as soon as they start talking with you in a room and then leaving your mind, but, it was absolutely a step in the right direction.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 12:49:16 PM
Another thing to consider is that your solution as proposed means more occasions where players contact NPCs accidentally (this already happens several times per day). Instead of poor psionic targeting on the part of the player which could be corrected by simply reading the screen, the player would have no way of knowing whether they reached a PC, NPC, or the right person at all. For playability's sake, that probably wouldn't be feasible.
Hmmm, I can see the pain in the ass this would cause.
But, I personally think the gains of taking out sdesc sniffing through the Way, which gets abused in PC to PC interactions regularly, would out-weigh the potential negatives of accidently sending a Way to an NPC that isn't going to affect storylines for the most part, if at all.
Again, that is my personal preference, I'm sure many other people would disagree and I'm fine with that.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 13, 2012, 12:31:47 PM
Have to either code in a starting skill for mindbenders that would allow them to verify their contact target, or exempt them from the message-send requirement for target verification.
Also, are you suggesting that you don't see your target's sdesc at all unless they respond to you? If so, this could have disastrous consequences, especially in situations where your psi target needs information, but is unable to reply.
Also, with abuse of the keyword command, you'd be able to intercept messages for high-value targets without the message-senders knowing it...which seems like a pretty lousy thing to have to force the staff to police.
I'm open to alternatives man.
Sdesc sniffing with the Way is a problem. I don't claim to have the best solution.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 12:49:16 PM
Another thing to consider is that your solution as proposed means more occasions where players contact NPCs accidentally (this already happens several times per day). Instead of poor psionic targeting on the part of the player which could be corrected by simply reading the screen, the player would have no way of knowing whether they reached a PC, NPC, or the right person at all. For playability's sake, that probably wouldn't be feasible.
That is a very very good point. I'd rather have it the way it is now than end up talking to NPC's all day. ^.^
I agree that a clearer policy would be a good thing.
A coded solution might be nice, but could also simply cause more problems/irritations than it solves. Also sounds moderately complicated. For instance, how does the code know when you've "met" someone?
What about...a little evolution on the part of Zalanthians? Like...a random chance that you will see the sdesc of the person contacting you. This chance is probably enough to put people off sdesc sniffing and abuse...a little. As there is a chance they wouldn't be anonymous in the process. I can't see a reason how a change like that would hurt...but I'm pretty tired today.
Quote from: Desertman on November 13, 2012, 01:31:11 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 12:49:16 PM
This looks like abuse from someone.
I've seen it first hand on MANY occassions with multiple PC's.
Your specific example seems like a portrayal of abuse, so it depends on what happened in reality. You'd have to be specific. Since you can't be, yes: please file a player complaint if you notice a problem. We can review it then.
Quote
Yup, I absolutely trust you guys to handle business. One of my favorite things about Arm has always been our ability to self police our own roleplay.
I think we just needed confirmation from the staff that sdesc sniffing with the Way IS IN FACT ABUSE.
Now that we have that confirmed, maybe players will stop doing it?
Maybe this should be added to the Help Docs both in game and on the webpage for Contact/The Way? I know currently a very large number of players do not realize this is even considered abuse.
You might note that I didn't provide a solid answer, either. It is a case-by-case thing and we will review it if there is an issue. If you feel like it is being abused, then file a player complaint.
Quote
I loved this change. Agreed it isn't perfect, it opened up a whole new can of worms with people instantly doing "Contact black-cloaked" to get your sdesc as soon as they start talking with you in a room and then leaving your mind, but, it was absolutely a step in the right direction.
Again, if that happens, this is an example of something of which we need to be made aware via a player complaint. This will help us determine the regularity of the problem and whether it is being blown out of proportion, and then it is easier for us to use data points in order to determine whether a change is needed.
Quote from: Maso on November 13, 2012, 01:48:00 PM
What about...a little evolution on the part of Zalanthians? Like...a random chance that you will see the sdesc of the person contacting you. This chance is probably enough to put people off sdesc sniffing and abuse...a little. As there is a chance they wouldn't be anonymous in the process. I can't see a reason how a change like that would hurt...but I'm pretty tired today.
This looks like something we couldn't answer for you until we actually do change something, as it is a mix of code, lore, and mechanics.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 01:56:26 PM
Your specific example seems like a portrayal of abuse, so it depends on what happened in reality. You'd have to be specific. Since you can't be, yes: please file a player complaint if you notice a problem. We can review it then.
I understand. But I would like to note that my specific example, "Ok, I just found his mind. He has green eyes, dark hair, and is missing one arm, now we know who we are looking for guys." Is exactly what I have seen happen multiple times, pretty much word for word.
So long as we are clear on that being abuse, that is really my primary concern and I will go ahead and start submitting player complaints when I see it.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 01:56:26 PM
You might note that I didn't provide a solid answer, either. It is a case-by-case thing and we will review it if there is an issue. If you feel like it is being abused, then file a player complaint.
Can we get some sort of guideline as to what is acceptable? Anything? One example of abuse? Is what I posted above considered an example of abuse? I'm confused now because previously you said that appears to be abuse, and now you are saying you aren't giving a solid answer on it. Why are you playing with my brain Nyr? Why are you doing this to me? ;)
I think the best way to defeat sdesc sniffing is to allow generic maxed barrier to defeat generic maxed contact 100% of the time, and making it rather difficult for even maxed generic contact to defeat the noobiest successful barrier, then allowing mindbenders supra-maximal contact skill that can defeat generic maxed barrier. (Of course, this would lead to some other problems with some other things that probably shouldn't be spoken about, but those things could also be modified to take into account the new contact vs. barrier situation.)
This way, if you have a barrier up and you're an experienced PC, your sdesc can't ever be sniffed by anyone other than a mindbender (which would be an appropriate ability for a mindbender anyway).
Unfortunately, this would royally piss off anyone who had an important message to send you while you were spooking about talking to people with your cloak up...but them's the breaks.
The success curve of generic contact vs. generic barrier would look something like...at matched novice contact vs. barrier, there would be maybe a 1% of breaking the barrier, and that % would decrease steadily as the matched levels progressed, until at completely mastered contact and barrier, the % chance of breaking the barrier would be virtually nil. Maxed contact vs. noobie barrier would give maybe a 10% success rate, curving down to the virtually nil master vs. master point. Maybe increase the stun drain of barrier to compensate for its new functionality, or drastically decrease the amount of time it stays up, forcing you to constantly renew it.
Under this sort of system, if you're paranoid about your sdesc, you can take effective action to prevent it from getting out, at the cost of some inconvenience. If not, you don't have to worry about it.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on November 13, 2012, 01:46:28 PM
I agree that a clearer policy would be a good thing.
Same here. Barring a code change to prevent abuse, a simple outline of what might be considered abuse would make me happy. Not that anyone cares if I am happy. But still.
Data points: To date, we've had a grand total of two player complaints that have used the words "sdesc sniffing." Both were declined, one stating that sdesc sniffing doesn't work that way anymore due to the hood change, and the other stating that there's no rule against sdesc sniffing. It's true; there is no rule against it. Only one other complaint can be tied directly to this sort of thing without parsing out every single player complaint filed.
We actually see more complaints about guild-sniffing and power-emoting.
I'm not personally convinced that sdesc sniffing as described is abuse. My caveat is that if we do think that there is abuse going on, we'll handle it, whether that be with communication or with a change in code. That's why I'd suggest sending in a player complaint when you see something that you think might be abuse so that we can actually document how things are occurring. When you do that, we can look into specific scenarios and offer feedback that is pertinent to the situation.
I would like it if the sdesc stayed the way it was regarding your current sdesc, at all times for mundanes. Pull a cloak over your head, and Way. And your shady elf who's stolen from five different nobles can sit at the bar under his hood in some semblance of what peace and ease might be like for an elf's psychology. And I can't help but feel like there's something I'm missing regarding the idea.
I think it would be more appropriate for mundane people, waying someone whose name they know and whose face they've never seen clearly, to not automatically know what wayed people look like, to not be able to recognize them at first glance when they leave, lower their hoods, and come back into the room where you see their face for the first time.
Yeah, actually...the more I think about it...the more I feel like it's just an aspect of Zalanthian life...if you're connected to someones mind, you get an image of what they look...Just the way it is. There are things in Zalanthas that make life 'easier' and things that make it 'harder'. Welcome to Armageddon?
The only solution I can think of would be to have psionic contact work like this:
> contact malik
> You contact a foreign presence with the Way.
> You send a telepathic message to a foreign presence:
"can u hear me now, bro?"
> A foreign presence contacts your mind.
> The muscular, scarred dwarf sends you a telepathic message:
"Can you please use proper sirihish when you're messaging me?"
So that way, you get 'a foreign presence' UNTIL they contact you back, in which case you get their sdesc.
However, this comes with a whole litany of problems unto itself that may be worse than the original thing it was intending to fix.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 02:40:05 PM
Data points: To date, we've had a grand total of two player complaints that have used the words "sdesc sniffing." Both were declined, one stating that sdesc sniffing doesn't work that way anymore due to the hood change, and the other stating that there's no rule against sdesc sniffing. It's true; there is no rule against it. Only one other complaint can be tied directly to this sort of thing without parsing out every single player complaint filed.
We actually see more complaints about guild-sniffing and power-emoting.
Data point noted. But to be fair, I have seen many instances of sdesc sniffing with the Way that I would have submitted player complaints about if I had known I should be submitting player complaints about it.
The reason you do not have more, one might conclude, is because the playerbase doesn't know that they should be submitting complaints about this.
I think it would be prudent to agree that this specific data point may not accurately reflect the issue due to the fact the group from which the data is being drawn has never been made aware that this is an issue they should be submitting data on.
If such a policy existed officially, I would be interested to see this data point re-examined perhaps six months from now?
That would be interesting.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 02:40:05 PM
I'm not personally convinced that sdesc sniffing as described is abuse. My caveat is that if we do think that there is abuse going on, we'll handle it, whether that be with communication or with a change in code. That's why I'd suggest sending in a player complaint when you see something that you think might be abuse so that we can actually document how things are occurring. When you do that, we can look into specific scenarios and offer feedback that is pertinent to the situation.
Is that your personal opinion or a staff opinion? I just want to confirm. My end game here is of course to get an official staff policy in place.
That aside....
Can we at least agree that the new "policy" regarding sdesc sniffing with the Way is that when you see it, you should submit a player complaint about it so that it can be assessed for abuse by the staff as a whole?
Quote from: Fathi on November 13, 2012, 03:01:47 PM
The only solution I can think of would be to have psionic contact work like this:
> contact malik
> You contact a foreign presence with the Way.
> You send a telepathic message to a foreign presence:
"can u hear me now, bro?"
> A foreign presence contacts your mind.
> The muscular, scarred dwarf sends you a telepathic message:
"Can you please use proper sirihish when you're messaging me?"
So that way, you get 'a foreign presence' UNTIL they contact you back, in which case you get their sdesc.
However, this comes with a whole litany of problems unto itself that may be worse than the original thing it was intending to fix.
This is my exact idea, yes.
But, as someone pointed out, it might become a pain when you accidentally contact an NPC, who of course, will not respond, and you wouldn't even realize you have contacted an NPC.
I'm thinking about this currently and trying to figure out a solution...
Quote from: Desertman on November 13, 2012, 03:04:16 PM
Quote from: Fathi on November 13, 2012, 03:01:47 PM
The only solution I can think of would be to have psionic contact work like this:
> contact malik
> You contact a foreign presence with the Way.
> You send a telepathic message to a foreign presence:
"can u hear me now, bro?"
> A foreign presence contacts your mind.
> The muscular, scarred dwarf sends you a telepathic message:
"Can you please use proper sirihish when you're messaging me?"
So that way, you get 'a foreign presence' UNTIL they contact you back, in which case you get their sdesc.
However, this comes with a whole litany of problems unto itself that may be worse than the original thing it was intending to fix.
This is my exact idea, yes.
But, as someone pointed it, it might become a pain when you accidentally contact an NPC, who of course, will not respond, and you won't even realize you have contacted an NPC.
I'm thinking about this currently and trying to figure out a solution...
Ahhh, now that I reread your OP I see that our suggestions are the same. I thought that you were saying they shouldn't necessarily have to be in mutual contact, just that if people are actually sending messages, you'd get the sdesc.
I grok you now.
You should file a player complaint when you feel that another player is breaking the rules of the game. See help rules for details on the rules of the game. There is no rule against sdesc-sniffing. Should any of this change, we'll let you know.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 03:28:54 PM
You should file a player complaint when you feel that another player is breaking the rules of the game.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 03:28:54 PM
There is no rule against sdesc-sniffing.
Since we have confirmed now that there is no rule against sdesc sniffing with the Way, I can't very well feel that someone sdesc sniffing with the Way is against the rules. How can I feel something when I know for a fact that the truth is the exact opposite?
I may not like the fact that sdesc sniffing with the Way isn't against the rules, but I do like the fact that this has now been officially confirmed, and I thank you for that.
What if it worked the other way. What if you always saw sdescs:
The muscular, scarred dwarf contacts your mind.
> contact muscular.scarred.dwarf
You contact the muscular scarred dwarf with the Way.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 13, 2012, 04:20:39 PM
What if it worked the other way. What if you always saw sdescs:
The muscular, scarred dwarf contacts your mind.
> contact muscular.scarred.dwarf
You contact the muscular scarred dwarf with the Way.
That would be fine, but it wouldn't have anything to do with the issue being discussed in this thread, unless I am misunderstanding?
If sdesc sniffing with the Way isn't against the rules, and we have confirmed that it is not against the rules, then this proposed change really wouldn't affect that at all I don't think.
Am I confused here?
I like that idea Morgenes. Then you know who's finding you and you know who you're finding. It'd be more helpful to people contacting in general and you'd also not need to talk to someone so that you know you've gotten the right mind. It's not exactly like a telephone, and even if it is, they do have caller id now. ;)
Quote from: Morgenes on November 13, 2012, 04:20:39 PM
What if it worked the other way. What if you always saw sdescs:
The muscular, scarred dwarf contacts your mind.
> contact muscular.scarred.dwarf
You contact the muscular scarred dwarf with the Way.
Not sure I am a fan. That would advantage people with common names, oddly. Or make the Way a heck of a lot less popular.
"Well, there is this other Malik, and the Lord Templars are looking for him, and so is Black Buck."
I've heard numerous complaints over the years, one of the biggest is the issue of people contacting and withdrawing. I thinks leads to a lots of people thinking people are sdesc sniffing (which is not against the rules), when really they may have just accidentally used the wrong keyword, or ran across a common name.
Today, you have no clue who is contacting you, this would at least arm you with the knowledge of who has just sdesc sniffed you.
*shrug* it's a thought, and the counterpoint that I hadn't seen offered to the complaint that you can see sdescs on contact but not being the contactee.
I would love it if you saw who contacts you. Thumbs up on that
Quote from: Morgenes on November 13, 2012, 04:40:35 PM
I've heard numerous complaints over the years, one of the biggest is the issue of people contacting and withdrawing.
This doesn't bother me at all. I can see how it might bother some people.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 13, 2012, 04:40:35 PM
I thinks leads to a lots of people thinking people are sdesc sniffing (which is not against the rules), when really they may have just accidentally used the wrong keyword, or ran across a common name.
I can see how that would bother some people. But again, it doesn't bother me.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 13, 2012, 04:40:35 PM
Today, you have no clue who is contacting you, this would at least arm you with the knowledge of who has just sdesc sniffed you.
I guess, I would prefer neither party knew who contacted them until an actual telepathic message was sent.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 13, 2012, 04:40:35 PM
*shrug* it's a thought, and the counterpoint that I hadn't seen offered to the complaint that you can see sdescs on contact but not being the contactee.
My only concern at all is this...
contact Talia
You contact the small, one-handed, nine-toed girl with the Way.
Cease
Ok
You say in southern-accent sirihish, "I've never met Talia before, but, I can tell you that Talia is small, she has one hand, and she has nine toes. That is who you are looking for."That is my only problem.
Unfortunately, that isn't against the rules.
I'd prefer a situation where sdesc information was only sent when information was transferred, sort of like what's being presented, but only part of it. Contacting someone's mind wouldn't reveal a sdesc but sending or receiving a message would reveal the recipient/sender's sdesc as it does currently.
Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on November 13, 2012, 04:49:23 PM
I'd prefer a situation where sdesc information was only sent when information was transferred, sort of like what's being presented, but only part of it. Contacting someone's mind wouldn't reveal a sdesc but sending or receiving a message would reveal the recipient/sender's sdesc as it does currently.
Yup, this is exactly what was proposed. :)
Quote from: Desertman on November 13, 2012, 04:52:16 PM
Quote from: Schrodingers Cat on November 13, 2012, 04:49:23 PM
I'd prefer a situation where sdesc information was only sent when information was transferred, sort of like what's being presented, but only part of it. Contacting someone's mind wouldn't reveal a sdesc but sending or receiving a message would reveal the recipient/sender's sdesc as it does currently.
Yup, this is exactly what was proposed. :)
Oh I was confused then. I read it as being that the sender would never see the sdesc of the person being contacted, even while sending them messages, making it impossible for me to confirm who I was sending messages too unless they responded appropriately.
Quote from: Desertman on November 13, 2012, 04:47:57 PM
contact Talia
You contact the small, one-handed, nine-toed girl with the Way.
Cease
Ok
You say in southern-accent sirihish, "I've never met Talia before, but, I can tell you that Talia is small, she has one hand, and she has nine toes. That is who you are looking for."
That is my only problem.
The "you" in that scenario has no clue whether that's the right Talia if he's never met Talia before.
I don't understand how that is any different than getting it up front. I don't see how the act of sending a message will reduce it anymore, let me amend your example:
contact Talia
You contact a foreign presence with the Way.
You send a telepathic message to the small, one-handed, nine-toed girl:
'hi'
Cease
Ok
You say in southern-accent sirihish, "I've never met Talia before, but, I can tell you that Talia is small, she has one hand, and she has nine toes. That is who you are looking for."
All this does is add the cost of the psi to the cost. I suppose Talia has a few seconds to try an expel.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 13, 2012, 04:40:35 PM
I've heard numerous complaints over the years, one of the biggest is the issue of people contacting and withdrawing.
This only bothers me because, for half a second, I think "Oh!! Oh!! Someone needs me for something!" and then I realize that they don't.
It's like being a socially awkward, introverted teenager with a sibling who is a popular social butterfly. Every time the phone rings you run to it thinking that maybe someone is finally calling for you and instead they just ask for your brother.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 04:55:24 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 13, 2012, 04:47:57 PM
contact Talia
You contact the small, one-handed, nine-toed girl with the Way.
Cease
Ok
You say in southern-accent sirihish, "I've never met Talia before, but, I can tell you that Talia is small, she has one hand, and she has nine toes. That is who you are looking for."
That is my only problem.
The "you" in that scenario has no clue whether that's the right Talia if he's never met Talia before.
That is true, and that is extremely helpful if you stick to very common names like Talia and Amos.
But if you have a name like...Garisolth.
How many of those do you suppose there are in a playerbase with 65 people on in peak times?
So...I will change the scenario....
contact Garisolth
You contact the small, one-handed, nine-toed girl with the Way.
Cease
Ok
You say in southern-accent sirihish, "I've never met Garisolth before, but, I can tell you that Garisolth is small, she has one hand, and she has nine toes. That is who you are looking for."
Quote from: Morgenes on November 13, 2012, 04:56:12 PM
I don't understand how that is any different than getting it up front. I don't see how the act of sending a message will reduce it anymore, let me amend your example:
contact Talia
You contact a foreign presence with the Way.
You send a telepathic message to the small, one-handed, nine-toed girl:
'hi'
Cease
Ok
You say in southern-accent sirihish, "I've never met Talia before, but, I can tell you that Talia is small, she has one hand, and she has nine toes. That is who you are looking for."
All this does is add the cost of the psi to the cost. I suppose Talia has a few seconds to try an expel.
This isn't what I'm proposing.
What I am proposing is as follows:
You send a telepathic message to a foreign presence:
'hi'Now if they reply you will get this....
The small, one-handed, nine-toed girl sends you a telepathic message via the Way:
"Oh, hi Amos, how are you?"(Original post edited to make this more clear, sorry about that.)
I guess my point is that the example is pretty contrived. For some reason unbeknownst to me, I'm asking this person who Garisolth is. This person doesn't know who Garisolth is and hasn't met them, but gosh golly, they know what they look like. If sdesc-sniffing isn't against the rules (currently the case), I'll sdesc sniff them on my own because I already know the person's name and their name is associated with how I find their mind, no? I don't need this other person to tell me something I can find out on my own, especially if they preface their response with "I have never met them, but..."
Quote from: Morgenes on November 13, 2012, 04:20:39 PM
What if it worked the other way. What if you always saw sdescs:
The muscular, scarred dwarf contacts your mind.
> contact muscular.scarred.dwarf
You contact the muscular scarred dwarf with the Way.
This is a great idea and one I believe would benefit the world wide way network immensely.
As someone who frequently gets the "A foreign presence contacts your mind" then they withdraw right after, I think this would prevent these little annoyances and encourage people to practice safer, more accurate waying methods. :)
edit: It doesn't solve D-man's sdesc-sniffing dealie but it wouldn't hurt. At least the person on the other would know -who- is sdesc-sniffing.
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 05:10:48 PM
I guess my point is that the example is pretty contrived. For some reason unbeknownst to me, I'm asking this person who Garisolth is. This person doesn't know who Garisolth is and hasn't met them, but gosh golly, they know what they look like. If sdesc-sniffing isn't against the rules (currently the case), I'll sdesc sniff them on my own because I already know the person's name and their name is associated with how I find their mind, no? I don't need this other person to tell me something I can find out on my own, especially if they preface their response with "I have never met them, but..."
Here is your scenario...
A thief named Garisolth steals a fancy golden dildo from Lady Fale.
A theif named Garisolth gets away with it and is not seen by anyone.
A month later Lady Fale is raging because someone stole her golden dildo, but she has no idea who did it.
A thief named Garisolth, who also goes by the name Yarsimal in the Rinth tells one of his Rinth buddies he has a golden dildo for sale and that if anyone is interested they should seek out Yarsimal.
Well, Garisolth's buddy starts blabbing.
Eventually, a rumor gets back to Lady Fale that some theif named Yarsimal stole her golden dildo.
Lady Fale then does the following...
contact Yarsimal
You contact the golden-dildo thief with green eyes, one leg, and a dragon tattoo via the Way.
cease
You dissolve the psychic link.
You say in Fale-accented Sirihish to the tavern at large, "A thief named Yarsimal who has green eyes, one leg, and a dragon tattoo stole my golden dildo. I will pay a billion obsidian pieces to the person who brings me his head.'
write board A thief named Yarsimal who has green eyes, one leg, and a dragon tattooDoes this scenario better provide an example of why sdesc sniffing with the Way could be an issue?
I am in full agreement of Synths Idea, as I have suggested it in the past.
It pretty much solves the point of this thread and several others.
QuoteI think the best way to defeat sdesc sniffing is to allow generic maxed barrier to defeat generic maxed contact 100% of the time, and making it rather difficult for even maxed generic contact to defeat the noobiest successful barrier, then allowing mindbenders supra-maximal contact skill that can defeat generic maxed barrier. (Of course, this would lead to some other problems with some other things that probably shouldn't be spoken about, but those things could also be modified to take into account the new contact vs. barrier situation.)
This way, if you have a barrier up and you're an experienced PC, your sdesc can't ever be sniffed by anyone other than a mindbender (which would be an appropriate ability for a mindbender anyway).
So for that scenario to work out, Desertman, I have to buy the following:
there's a thief that is simultaneously that skilled and that dumb ICly
there's a noble that is simultaneously that dumb ICly and that twinkish
I grant that this very extreme scenario is a possibility, but in that very extreme scenario, staff would actually be talking to the noble's player. It really seems like a reach to get to abuse here.
Quote from: X-D on November 13, 2012, 05:26:02 PM
I am in full agreement of Synths Idea, as I have suggested it in the past.
It pretty much solves the point of this thread and several others.
QuoteI think the best way to defeat sdesc sniffing is to allow generic maxed barrier to defeat generic maxed contact 100% of the time, and making it rather difficult for even maxed generic contact to defeat the noobiest successful barrier, then allowing mindbenders supra-maximal contact skill that can defeat generic maxed barrier. (Of course, this would lead to some other problems with some other things that probably shouldn't be spoken about, but those things could also be modified to take into account the new contact vs. barrier situation.)
This way, if you have a barrier up and you're an experienced PC, your sdesc can't ever be sniffed by anyone other than a mindbender (which would be an appropriate ability for a mindbender anyway).
This is fine if you want to have your barrier up 100% of the time. That is a solution, but in my opinion, not the best solution.
If you contact a player using the name as the keyword:
You contact a foreign presence with the Way.
Once they respond, you see the sdesc as usual.
If you contact an NPC using a name as they keyword, it shows the sdesc as normal.
If you contact a player using other keywords, you see the sdesc as normal but they also see "<your sdesc> has contacted you." You've either seen them around at this point, or heard a little of their description, or you are possibly using random, common sdesc keywords. If you're using random keywords, you aren't really learning who you are contacting so it doesn't matter. It could even be an npc for all you know.
So if for some reason you don't really want to talk to someone you have to do business with and are just seeing if they are around, you can still back out as long as you contacted them by name instead of sdesc.
If you only have a persons name, you also can't learn the person's sdesc unless they respond to you. You do know you are in contact with a player of that name though, because otherwise it'd show an npc's sdesc or not have connected.
I think this resolves the real issue- finding sdesc on people from just having a name (or keyword nick name). It still leaves privacy to people that just want to ping and not be locked into a conversation as long as they use the proper name to contact. And as an added bonus, you get to see who it is when someone's using random keywords or your sdesc to contact you.
Goals- maximize privacy and usability, and also minimize hassle, harassment, and abuse.
Is there enough of a coded distinction between your name and your hair color?
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 05:35:39 PM
So for that scenario to work out, Desertman, I have to buy the following:
there's a thief that is simultaneously that skilled and that dumb ICly
there's a noble that is simultaneously that dumb ICly and that twinkish
I grant that this very extreme scenario is a possibility, but in that very extreme scenario, staff would actually be talking to the noble's player. It really seems like a reach to get to abuse here.
You are looking at the specifics of the hypothetical example and not the scope problem, it could be abused for scenarios big (like the example given above) or small, and is, often.
Yarsimal does something naughty, be it stealing a golden dildo or stealing a piece of fruit.
Someone says, "A friend of a friend of a friend of mine said a guy named Yarsimal stole some fruit. Don't know who he is, but, that is what I heard."
Suddenly there is a five large bounty on a guy named Yarsimal.
Suddenly every bounty hunter in the known suddenly knows exactly what Yarsimal looks like just because they can do "contact yarsimal" and get his sdesc.Do you not see the problem?
I have played more than a few bounty hunters, and more than a few villians. I have been on both sides. I have both used and been a victim of sdesc sniffing with the Way.
It is extremely useful for hunting someone you have never met before when you only know their name.
It is also an extreme pain in the butt when suddenly the entire world is finding your mind to get your sdesc so they can recognize you instantly when they see you.
I had this happen to me once actually, it is kind of funny...
I was playing a villian. I befriended a new PC who did not know IC that I was in fact a villian. We are sitting at a table talking with two other people who mention that <my character's name> is a villian who does bad things. The newly befriended PC does..."Contact <my character's name>"...They find my mind, they leave my mind...They get real big eyes, look at me, and suddenly, even though they didn't know my PC by that name...They knew instantly I was the villian.
The worst part is, that is completely not against the rules. They can sit and talk with me face to face and never know I am a natorious bad guy, but all they have to do is "contact alias", because they happened to hear the name in a conversation, and suddenly, within the rules of the game, they are allowed to know instantly that I am a villian.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 13, 2012, 04:20:39 PM
What if it worked the other way. What if you always saw sdescs:
The muscular, scarred dwarf contacts your mind.
> contact muscular.scarred.dwarf
You contact the muscular scarred dwarf with the Way.
I'd like this. I'd be embarrassed every time I accidentally contacted the wrong someone over the Way (which happens all the flipping time). But it would at least give someone who thought someone was inappropriately using the mechanic to sdsesc sniff some detail about the incident from which staff could go to investigate.
But most importantly, it'd give me something to do against the thing I hate the most.
Someone contacts me.
I lose link.
I regain link.
Someone ceases.
I have no idea who contacted me.
Sigh.
Quote from: Kalai on November 13, 2012, 05:50:54 PM
Is there enough of a coded distinction between your name and your hair color?
And yes, there are some cheesy work arounds that you can do to prevent this if you plan on playing a bad guy, but really, I don't want to have to be cheesy.
I could play...
The blue-eyed man and have my name be "Blue".
Would it prevent me from getting sdesc sniffed by people that have never actually met my character just because they hear the name Blue?
Yes.
Is it very cheesy and borderline "code abuse"? Yes
People shouldn't treat a look at your sdesc as seeing your face, or you. Your sdesc is a very brief description, and fingering a person based on that should be extremely hard. After all how many tall, scarred men are there, or lanky, blue eyed girls in city-states with hundred of thousands of people.... Fingering someone based on their sdesc alone is pretty unrealistic. You need to LOOK at someone to be able to recognize them well enough to be sure. People should just treat it this way in game.
Quote from: Desertman on November 13, 2012, 06:04:20 PM
Quote from: Kalai on November 13, 2012, 05:50:54 PM
Is there enough of a coded distinction between your name and your hair color?
And yes, there are some cheesy work arounds that you can do to prevent this if you plan on playing a bad guy, but really, I don't want to have to be cheesy.
I could play...
The blue-eyed man and have my name be "Blue".
Would it prevent me from getting sdesc sniffed by people that have never actually met my character just because they hear the name Blue?
Yes.
Is it very cheesy and borderline "code abuse". Yes
I mean, in order for the code to tell if you're contacting someone by name or keyword in the first place. You'd have to add either a [name] tag to your names and (added?) nicknames or a [desc] tag to non-name keywords ... and it might in fact indeed prevent folk from playing the blue-haired blue-skinned half-giant named Blue ...
It sounded like an interesting solution that would unfortunately get hampered by having to redesign the keyword implementation to be clunkier.
I've had several pcs whose true name was something in their sdesc, and it doesn't lack for the making sense, believe it or not.
Blue for a halfgiant? Why not, blue hair is pretty distinctive, and if I had a blue-haired kid, I might name them that. It's interesting and different. Same thing with Jade or Henna or Tawny or and number of other words. Providing they make sense as names and are not trying to stretch things to make them less realistic.
Meh.
Merge language code and contact while preserving the article and gender of the sdesc. The lower the skill you have in contact, and the lower skill they have in contact, the more chance you have of seeing something like this:
You contact the gargleunr, gho-tneld man.
Wouldn't /really/ fix the problem, though...
When X-D and I agree on something, it's usually a good idea.
Or we're just trying to make it easier to kill you.
But seriously. Make barrier foolproof vs. mundanes, but make it last only 1 minute or something before you have to put it back up. That way, you can scoot in, be all sneaky and mysterious with your hood up, then scoot out.
Actually, I'd like to modify this idea. I just realized that having barrier up constantly actually has some purpose beyond merely keeping people from finding your mind.
Instead of changing how barrier currently works, just add another mundane psi skill that works as a very short-term super-barrier, as described previously. That way, people who like/need the way barrier works currently don't get screwed, and you've added exactly the functionality you need to prevent hood-contact sdesc sniffing.
QuoteActually, I'd like to modify this idea. I just realized that having barrier up constantly actually has some purpose beyond merely keeping people from finding your mind.
True enough, but as far as I am concerned they already put code in place to deal with that/those.
I still think the simplest solution is best, simply make max mundane barrier full proof verses max mundane contact.
Possibly give certain non-mundanes a tiny bonus to breaking it and another enough of a bonus so that they remain the same as now...or however they want to go about that to keep that point static.
From way-code to the good ol' contact/barrier debate, I love ya'll.
I definitely side with X-D/Synthesis regarding this.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 13, 2012, 08:34:53 PM
From way-code to the good ol' contact/barrier debate, I love ya'll.
(http://i.qkme.me/3581pj.jpg)
But I'm still going to chime in anyway. *sigh*
WHAT IF GUYS...
Fresh max barrier is foolproof against max contact...but the longer you have it up the more vulnerable you become? So you get your short burst of 'really awesome barrier' if you want super protection for a short amount of time...but you also get your regular long-term 'keep the newbs out' protection...
Quote from: Maso on November 13, 2012, 08:46:54 PM
Fresh max barrier is foolproof against max contact...but the longer you have it up the more vulnerable you become?
Degrading barrier? I've never met you, but you are sexy!
Quote from: Desertman on November 13, 2012, 05:52:05 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 05:35:39 PM
So for that scenario to work out, Desertman, I have to buy the following:
there's a thief that is simultaneously that skilled and that dumb ICly
there's a noble that is simultaneously that dumb ICly and that twinkish
I grant that this very extreme scenario is a possibility, but in that very extreme scenario, staff would actually be talking to the noble's player. It really seems like a reach to get to abuse here.
You are looking at the specifics of the hypothetical example and not the scope problem, it could be abused for scenarios big (like the example given above) or small, and is, often.
Yarsimal does something naughty, be it stealing a golden dildo or stealing a piece of fruit.
Someone says, "A friend of a friend of a friend of mine said a guy named Yarsimal stole some fruit. Don't know who he is, but, that is what I heard."
Suddenly there is a five large bounty on a guy named Yarsimal.
Suddenly every bounty hunter in the known suddenly knows exactly what Yarsimal looks like just because they can do "contact yarsimal" and get his sdesc.
Do you not see the problem?
I do see that you have an issue with the sdesc-sniffing, but I'm Nyr. You don't have to convince me that you believe this is an issue; I can definitely take your word for it. You do have to back away from hyperbolic examples if you want to keep me from trying to poke holes in it, because I will usually jump in just to do that if I see an issue.
Why not have barrier being up automatically obscure your sdesc, with no ability to block anything else? Right now, barrier just blocks psi/skills, but you could add a latent ability for it to block sdesc transfering. Then the end user has the choice to obscure themselves or not, and you'll not spend all day waying NPCs.
I think the coolest version is where you only see the keywords you used to contact, or just a name placeholder if you used a name to contact. Can just see that opening up all kinds of awesome.
*waves to Desertman*
Heya! Been entirely too long.
Thought this thread might be a good read for ya (and anyone else interested): http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38654.0.html
Particularly starting on the second half of the second page, there's *some* of the "official staff opinion" you're looking for (on things coded, it doesn't get much more official than the "M-man" himself). That having been typed, you'll have to comb through carefully, as there have been some coded changes since then, and the topic wasn't precisely the same.
Hope that helps. =)
Quote from: Nyr on November 13, 2012, 09:36:03 PM
I do see that you have an issue with the sdesc-sniffing, but I'm Nyr. You don't have to convince me that you believe this is an issue; I can definitely take your word for it. You do have to back away from hyperbolic examples if you want to keep me from trying to poke holes in it, because I will usually jump in just to do that if I see an issue.
Well, if the constructive debate portion is no longer an option...
I guess I'm done.
Thanks for the initial responses, they were insightful and helpful.
No.. the current code system prevents the opposite which is FAR worse than what we have now.
And that is abusing anonymity.
Because if you make it code possible to be completely be able to hide who you are beyond hide(which has its own limitations) certain people will abuse it. And that abuse is far worse than sdesc sniffing. Which I still don't see how this is a problem. It's too case by case for me to generalize though.
[derail]
Quote from: Adj on November 14, 2012, 12:27:48 AM
The bald, clean shaven man sends to you feelings of pure joy, thoughts in sirihish:
"This change in code has made a HUGE difference for my enjoyment of this mud, THANKS!"
>feel gross
>think Ick!
>expel
[/derail]
I do not personally like the wording of your suggestion, but I have no complaint with the actual idea behind it.
Feelings shouldn't be -sent- to someone else unless the person sending them is capable of emotional manipulation. Feelings should ...noted? Noticed? There should be a clear distinction between what you understand someone else is feeling and what you yourself are experiencing.
There is a difference between:
psi *feelings of warmth wash over you* Hey babydoll. (bad)
and
psi *warmth* Hey, babydoll. (okay)
One forces a sensation (bad), the other simply indicates tone/emotion (okay).
Arrrgh, I hate it when people start bringing all sorts of ideas (good or not) that are only tangentially (at best) related to the OP.
This thread is just about how to prevent sdesc sniffing, and possibly the meta-issue of whether sdesc sniffing is in fact a problem at all. The rest of it...please take it elsewhere. When you shit up a thread with all sorts of extraneous ideas, it makes it unnecessarily difficult to follow the conversation. Every off-topic post is a nucleation point for more off-topic posts, and eventually the thread becomes a chaotic mess and dies.
To summarize:
1. Is sdesc sniffing a problem? Staff apparently don't think it's a big deal. I think habitual players of PCs with a criminal bent tend to disagree.
2. Assuming it's a problem, what solutions have been proposed?
Option A: Contactor just can't see the sdesc of the target he's contacted. Pro: this would fix the sniffing problem. Con: all sorts of problems with sending messages to wrong targets, and potentially with folks intentionally picking keywords at chargen or adding keywords in order to intercept messages intended for "high-value" targets.
Option B: Make max mundane barrier 100% effective vs. max mundane contact. Pros: this would fix the sniffing problem, but only if you're proactive about it. Also, it should be a relatively easy code fix, since it sounds like it would just mean jimmying with a mathematical function. Cons: interference with some other things that can't be discussed.
Option C: Keep barrier the way it is, but add a "super-barrier" psi skill where the super-barrier is 100% effective vs. contact, but can only be maintained for a short time (either via massive stun drain or short duration). Pros: fixes the problem, if you're proactive about it. Also leaves ordinary barrier functionality intact for those who use barrier for other things. Cons: could still potentially interfere with some barrier-related issues, but given the short duration, the impact ought to be minimal.
Option D: Modify the barrier skill such that barriers are initially 100% effective vs. contact, but slowly lose effectiveness over time. Pros: fixes the problem if you're proactive, leaves ordinary barrier functionality intact, doesn't require coding an additional skill, should be relatively easy to code. Cons: could still interfere with other barrier-related issues.
I think C has the least potential to have negative consequences with respect to related issues. Option D is a pretty elegant solution, though.
For what it's worth, having played a PC who was "THA LAW" over a long period in Allanak, (spanning perhaps some dozen blue robes) I believe this happens less than is claimed. Personally I never did this. I may have harassed people wearing hoods indoors (because it's ridiculous and asking for it) but I never once contacted them to see what their sdesc was. I -would-, however, study their mdesc and look very hard for things that would be legitimately visible to me. This is in a setting where they are asking for scrutiny though.
The vast majority of the time, I specifically gave vague descriptions of criminals I saw. I (obviously) pretty rarely caught people. Most of those allowed themselves to be caught. The vast majority who allowed themselves to be caught (assuming it was a forgivable crime) got off relatively unscathed.
**Here is the important part**
Most caught criminals, in my admittedly limited experience (especially since I was not the Templar being wayed said information, and was often just following like a good lapdog) were sold out by other criminals.
TL;DR
Criminals, don't trust other criminals. They lie. They sell you out for their own hide. It may not be victims or law enforcement sdesc sniffing that is causing the perceived problem.
Hmm. I just realized that only option B fixes the problem of someone across the Known World hearing your name, then deciding to contact you to get your sdesc. In that case, it might be the best option, but would probably have to be combined with some tweaks governing how barrier interacts with other things. Option D would be a partial solution to this problem, but you'd have to be rigorous with constantly renewing the barrier. That might be acceptable, though.
I don't like any of these options. Though, I suppose the one I dislike the least is the one where you only get an sdesc when someone sends to you.
I say just change the policy to say it's not acceptable to use the Way to determine someone's appearance, and emphasize it in law enforcement clans. If people still think it's a problem after that's been in effect a while, bring coded options back to the table.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 25, 2009, 03:03:27 PM
I've posted this idea before in the past, but for the life of me I can't find it using the search function.
Personal keywords is something I'd love to see implimented, whether in Armageddon the current, or Armageddon Reborn.
Here's how it works:
Keywords as we know it now will be gone, with the exception of sdesc keywords. Players will be able to add their own keywords for other players-- much how it works in real life. You meet someone, they tell you their name, you give them a nickname, you start knowing them by said name or nickname, all is well and good. This way, you won't have to sit and hope and pray that a character will addkeyword that witty nickname you gave them, you could just do it yourself. No longer will people be able to just contact you with the Way out of the blue, especially when they've never met you before, no longer will people get a bounty head's name, and type "look <bountyheadname>" every time they're in a crowd of people to find their quarry.
I dunno, I think it's a great idea.
What do you guys think?
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 14, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 25, 2009, 03:03:27 PM
I've posted this idea before in the past, but for the life of me I can't find it using the search function.
Personal keywords is something I'd love to see implimented, whether in Armageddon the current, or Armageddon Reborn.
Here's how it works:
Keywords as we know it now will be gone, with the exception of sdesc keywords. Players will be able to add their own keywords for other players-- much how it works in real life. You meet someone, they tell you their name, you give them a nickname, you start knowing them by said name or nickname, all is well and good. This way, you won't have to sit and hope and pray that a character will addkeyword that witty nickname you gave them, you could just do it yourself. No longer will people be able to just contact you with the Way out of the blue, especially when they've never met you before, no longer will people get a bounty head's name, and type "look <bountyheadname>" every time they're in a crowd of people to find their quarry.
I dunno, I think it's a great idea.
What do you guys think?
Funny, this is exactly the discussion that has been going on staff side.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 14, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 25, 2009, 03:03:27 PM
I've posted this idea before in the past, but for the life of me I can't find it using the search function.
Personal keywords is something I'd love to see implimented, whether in Armageddon the current, or Armageddon Reborn.
Here's how it works:
Keywords as we know it now will be gone, with the exception of sdesc keywords. Players will be able to add their own keywords for other players-- much how it works in real life. You meet someone, they tell you their name, you give them a nickname, you start knowing them by said name or nickname, all is well and good. This way, you won't have to sit and hope and pray that a character will addkeyword that witty nickname you gave them, you could just do it yourself. No longer will people be able to just contact you with the Way out of the blue, especially when they've never met you before, no longer will people get a bounty head's name, and type "look <bountyheadname>" every time they're in a crowd of people to find their quarry.
I dunno, I think it's a great idea.
What do you guys think?
Funny, this is exactly the discussion that has been going on staff side.
Thanks for the head's up, Morg. Always good to glean some insight into the staff's process. :)
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 14, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 25, 2009, 03:03:27 PM
I've posted this idea before in the past, but for the life of me I can't find it using the search function.
Personal keywords is something I'd love to see implimented, whether in Armageddon the current, or Armageddon Reborn.
Here's how it works:
Keywords as we know it now will be gone, with the exception of sdesc keywords. Players will be able to add their own keywords for other players-- much how it works in real life. You meet someone, they tell you their name, you give them a nickname, you start knowing them by said name or nickname, all is well and good. This way, you won't have to sit and hope and pray that a character will addkeyword that witty nickname you gave them, you could just do it yourself. No longer will people be able to just contact you with the Way out of the blue, especially when they've never met you before, no longer will people get a bounty head's name, and type "look <bountyheadname>" every time they're in a crowd of people to find their quarry.
I dunno, I think it's a great idea.
What do you guys think?
Funny, this is exactly the discussion that has been going on staff side.
I'm a big fan of doing away with "The Way" all together just because it allows you to reach out to people and talk to people you have never even met before just because you heard their name in a bar on the other side of the world.
This is even better.
Qzzrbl, I want to have your mutant babies.
If people can't contact you without meeting you first to give you a keyword, that would make commerce and hiring very difficult. If they can still contact you by your sdesc but not your name, I'm not sure how this changes contact, because everyone would just start posting their sdesc as the contact info on rumors and using sdesc keywords to describe people to each other instead of names. This seems like more hassle to get ahold of people than adding anything to the game.
Yes, being able to give people custom keywords would be nice, but it has nothing to do with the OP topic.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 14, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 25, 2009, 03:03:27 PM
I've posted this idea before in the past, but for the life of me I can't find it using the search function.
Personal keywords is something I'd love to see implimented, whether in Armageddon the current, or Armageddon Reborn.
Here's how it works:
Keywords as we know it now will be gone, with the exception of sdesc keywords. Players will be able to add their own keywords for other players-- much how it works in real life. You meet someone, they tell you their name, you give them a nickname, you start knowing them by said name or nickname, all is well and good. This way, you won't have to sit and hope and pray that a character will addkeyword that witty nickname you gave them, you could just do it yourself. No longer will people be able to just contact you with the Way out of the blue, especially when they've never met you before, no longer will people get a bounty head's name, and type "look <bountyheadname>" every time they're in a crowd of people to find their quarry.
I dunno, I think it's a great idea.
What do you guys think?
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 01:26:15 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 14, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 25, 2009, 03:03:27 PM
I've posted this idea before in the past, but for the life of me I can't find it using the search function.
Personal keywords is something I'd love to see implimented, whether in Armageddon the current, or Armageddon Reborn.
Here's how it works:
Keywords as we know it now will be gone, with the exception of sdesc keywords. Players will be able to add their own keywords for other players-- much how it works in real life. You meet someone, they tell you their name, you give them a nickname, you start knowing them by said name or nickname, all is well and good. This way, you won't have to sit and hope and pray that a character will addkeyword that witty nickname you gave them, you could just do it yourself. No longer will people be able to just contact you with the Way out of the blue, especially when they've never met you before, no longer will people get a bounty head's name, and type "look <bountyheadname>" every time they're in a crowd of people to find their quarry.
I dunno, I think it's a great idea.
What do you guys think?
Funny, this is exactly the discussion that has been going on staff side.
I'm a big fan of doing away with "The Way" all together just because it allows you to reach out to people and talk to people you have never even met before just because you heard their name in a bar on the other side of the world.
This is even better.
Qzzrbl, I want to have your mutant babies.
None of this solves the problem of sdesc sniffing by pulling a contact dark.cloak in a crowd. It only solves the problem of across-the-known sdesc sniffing by keyword.
OK, that solution I do like, if indeed it's something viable code-wise.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 01:36:05 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 01:26:15 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 14, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 25, 2009, 03:03:27 PM
I've posted this idea before in the past, but for the life of me I can't find it using the search function.
Personal keywords is something I'd love to see implimented, whether in Armageddon the current, or Armageddon Reborn.
Here's how it works:
Keywords as we know it now will be gone, with the exception of sdesc keywords. Players will be able to add their own keywords for other players-- much how it works in real life. You meet someone, they tell you their name, you give them a nickname, you start knowing them by said name or nickname, all is well and good. This way, you won't have to sit and hope and pray that a character will addkeyword that witty nickname you gave them, you could just do it yourself. No longer will people be able to just contact you with the Way out of the blue, especially when they've never met you before, no longer will people get a bounty head's name, and type "look <bountyheadname>" every time they're in a crowd of people to find their quarry.
I dunno, I think it's a great idea.
What do you guys think?
Funny, this is exactly the discussion that has been going on staff side.
I'm a big fan of doing away with "The Way" all together just because it allows you to reach out to people and talk to people you have never even met before just because you heard their name in a bar on the other side of the world.
This is even better.
Qzzrbl, I want to have your mutant babies.
None of this solves the problem of sdesc sniffing by pulling a contact dark.cloak in a crowd. It only solves the problem of across-the-known sdesc sniffing by keyword.
Agreed.
But sdesc sniffing someone you have never seen in your life from across the world because you hear the name "Vardinok" and then roleplay you know exactly what they look like because you can do that is a much bigger issue.
Would I like to solve the problem of sdesc sniffing someone you are standing in the same room with as well? Yes. But, I would prefer to start with sdesc sniffing someone from across the world more.
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 01:56:07 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 01:36:05 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 01:26:15 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 14, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 25, 2009, 03:03:27 PM
I've posted this idea before in the past, but for the life of me I can't find it using the search function.
Personal keywords is something I'd love to see implimented, whether in Armageddon the current, or Armageddon Reborn.
Here's how it works:
Keywords as we know it now will be gone, with the exception of sdesc keywords. Players will be able to add their own keywords for other players-- much how it works in real life. You meet someone, they tell you their name, you give them a nickname, you start knowing them by said name or nickname, all is well and good. This way, you won't have to sit and hope and pray that a character will addkeyword that witty nickname you gave them, you could just do it yourself. No longer will people be able to just contact you with the Way out of the blue, especially when they've never met you before, no longer will people get a bounty head's name, and type "look <bountyheadname>" every time they're in a crowd of people to find their quarry.
I dunno, I think it's a great idea.
What do you guys think?
Funny, this is exactly the discussion that has been going on staff side.
I'm a big fan of doing away with "The Way" all together just because it allows you to reach out to people and talk to people you have never even met before just because you heard their name in a bar on the other side of the world.
This is even better.
Qzzrbl, I want to have your mutant babies.
None of this solves the problem of sdesc sniffing by pulling a contact dark.cloak in a crowd. It only solves the problem of across-the-known sdesc sniffing by keyword.
Agreed.
But sdesc sniffing someone you have never seen in your life from across the world because you hear the name "Vardinok" and then roleplay you know exactly what they look like because you can do that is a much bigger issue.
Would I like to solve the problem of sdesc sniffing someone you are standing in the same room with as well? Yes. But, I would prefer to start with sdesc sniffing someone from across the world more.
Why settle, when you can kill both birds with one stone (Option D)?
I don't really like the idea of having to have to meet someone in order to contact them via the way. There would have be some kind of major world-changing magickal/psionic event to justify such a massive change to the social culture of Arm. This would be especially prohibitive in regards to clans that are spread over multiple cities.
The idea has it's pros and cons. But mostly I think it would cause such a shift in the day today life of the average Zalanthan that unless there was some kind of IC reason to back up why trade, travel, life, communication suddenly became so much harder - it would be incredibly jarring for the majority of players.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 01:58:22 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 01:56:07 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 01:36:05 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 01:26:15 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 14, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 25, 2009, 03:03:27 PM
I've posted this idea before in the past, but for the life of me I can't find it using the search function.
Personal keywords is something I'd love to see implimented, whether in Armageddon the current, or Armageddon Reborn.
Here's how it works:
Keywords as we know it now will be gone, with the exception of sdesc keywords. Players will be able to add their own keywords for other players-- much how it works in real life. You meet someone, they tell you their name, you give them a nickname, you start knowing them by said name or nickname, all is well and good. This way, you won't have to sit and hope and pray that a character will addkeyword that witty nickname you gave them, you could just do it yourself. No longer will people be able to just contact you with the Way out of the blue, especially when they've never met you before, no longer will people get a bounty head's name, and type "look <bountyheadname>" every time they're in a crowd of people to find their quarry.
I dunno, I think it's a great idea.
What do you guys think?
Funny, this is exactly the discussion that has been going on staff side.
I'm a big fan of doing away with "The Way" all together just because it allows you to reach out to people and talk to people you have never even met before just because you heard their name in a bar on the other side of the world.
This is even better.
Qzzrbl, I want to have your mutant babies.
None of this solves the problem of sdesc sniffing by pulling a contact dark.cloak in a crowd. It only solves the problem of across-the-known sdesc sniffing by keyword.
Agreed.
But sdesc sniffing someone you have never seen in your life from across the world because you hear the name "Vardinok" and then roleplay you know exactly what they look like because you can do that is a much bigger issue.
Would I like to solve the problem of sdesc sniffing someone you are standing in the same room with as well? Yes. But, I would prefer to start with sdesc sniffing someone from across the world more.
Why settle, when you can kill both birds with one stone (Option D)?
Option D: Modify the barrier skill such that barriers are initially 100% effective vs. contact, but slowly lose effectiveness over time. Pros: fixes the problem if you're proactive, leaves ordinary barrier functionality intact, doesn't require coding an additional skill, should be relatively easy to code. Cons: could still interfere with other barrier-related issues.Option D only keeps someone from sdesc sniffing me from across the world if I play with my barrier up 100% of the time.
I don't want people to be able to sdesc sniff my villians and roleplay knowing what they look like when they have never met them. True. I MIGHT play a villian who kept their barrier up 100% of the time as such.
I also do not want people my character has never met to sdesc sniff them and roleplay knowing what they look like even when I am playing a peaceful merchant, for example. Do I have to play my peaceful merchant with my barrier up 100% of the time to keep people from sdesc sniffing me from across the world with option D?
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 12:59:15 PM
Funny, this is exactly the discussion that has been going on staff side.
I think it's come up several times on the GDB...
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34854.0/all.html at least.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 01:36:05 PM
None of this solves the problem of sdesc sniffing by pulling a contact dark.cloak in a crowd. It only solves the problem of across-the-known sdesc sniffing by keyword.
What about completely disabling contact by cloak/facewrap keywords?
Quote from: Maso on November 14, 2012, 01:59:12 PM
I don't really like the idea of having to have to meet someone in order to contact them via the way. There would have be some kind of major world-changing magickal/psionic event to justify such a massive change to the social culture of Arm. This would be especially prohibitive in regards to clans that are spread over multiple cities.
The idea has it's pros and cons. But mostly I think it would cause such a shift in the day today life of the average Zalanthan that unless there was some kind of IC reason to back up why trade, travel, life, communication suddenly became so much harder - it would be incredibly jarring for the majority of players.
I would agree with you, except we do not have an IC reason to explain why you can contact people you have never met currently.
There is no IC explanation for why Zalanthans can do this. It is just accepted by the playerbase that we can because the code allows it.
There doesn't have to be an IC explanation to explain why we suddenly can't, and the playerbase will likewise accept that fact.
We don't need an IC explanation to explain a change to that which is not already explained or justified to begin with.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 14, 2012, 02:01:44 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 12:59:15 PM
Funny, this is exactly the discussion that has been going on staff side.
I think it's come up several times on the GDB...
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34854.0/all.html at least.
We're well aware. This is something that was planned and proposed for the new game, after all.
I like Morgenes' spin on OP's idea.
>contact talia
You contact a foreign presence over the Way.
>psi I got you now!
You send a telepathic message to the knock-kneed thiefy girl over the way:
"I got you now!"
For the reason that Talia the pickpocket could possibly expel in time.
But, it would be really nice if people you have psi'ed multiple times before didn't require psi confirmation to avoid hassle.
I also like degrading barriers a lot.
I also agree with Nyr that this isn't a big deal in terms of abuse, so any improvements we can get to Way code are nice but less important. But yay for good suggestions all around!
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 14, 2012, 02:01:44 PM
What about completely disabling contact by cloak/facewrap keywords?
You can only contact "cloak/facewrap" if you are standing in the same room with the person wearing the cloak/facewrap.
This makes IC sense. You can see the person up close with your eyes, you should be able to contact them.
That part actually makes perfect sense. Let's keep that.
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 02:03:44 PM
I would agree with you, except we do not have an IC reason to explain why you can contact people you have never met currently.
To be fair...we do.
The Way (Communication)
The Way, or the Way of the Mind, is the name commonly given to the use
of psionic (mental) powers on Zalanthas. Over several aeons, every living
thing in the world has developed some use of psionics. While the use of
the Way is not simple (it makes demands on one's consciousness, as measured
by your character's stun points), every character is able to make use of
it. Only psionicists, however, can truly claim to have mastered the Way.
See also:
guild psionicist, Psionics, stun
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 02:01:28 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 01:58:22 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 01:56:07 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 01:36:05 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 01:26:15 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 14, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 25, 2009, 03:03:27 PM
I've posted this idea before in the past, but for the life of me I can't find it using the search function.
Personal keywords is something I'd love to see implimented, whether in Armageddon the current, or Armageddon Reborn.
Here's how it works:
Keywords as we know it now will be gone, with the exception of sdesc keywords. Players will be able to add their own keywords for other players-- much how it works in real life. You meet someone, they tell you their name, you give them a nickname, you start knowing them by said name or nickname, all is well and good. This way, you won't have to sit and hope and pray that a character will addkeyword that witty nickname you gave them, you could just do it yourself. No longer will people be able to just contact you with the Way out of the blue, especially when they've never met you before, no longer will people get a bounty head's name, and type "look <bountyheadname>" every time they're in a crowd of people to find their quarry.
I dunno, I think it's a great idea.
What do you guys think?
Funny, this is exactly the discussion that has been going on staff side.
I'm a big fan of doing away with "The Way" all together just because it allows you to reach out to people and talk to people you have never even met before just because you heard their name in a bar on the other side of the world.
This is even better.
Qzzrbl, I want to have your mutant babies.
None of this solves the problem of sdesc sniffing by pulling a contact dark.cloak in a crowd. It only solves the problem of across-the-known sdesc sniffing by keyword.
Agreed.
But sdesc sniffing someone you have never seen in your life from across the world because you hear the name "Vardinok" and then roleplay you know exactly what they look like because you can do that is a much bigger issue.
Would I like to solve the problem of sdesc sniffing someone you are standing in the same room with as well? Yes. But, I would prefer to start with sdesc sniffing someone from across the world more.
Why settle, when you can kill both birds with one stone (Option D)?
Option D: Modify the barrier skill such that barriers are initially 100% effective vs. contact, but slowly lose effectiveness over time. Pros: fixes the problem if you're proactive, leaves ordinary barrier functionality intact, doesn't require coding an additional skill, should be relatively easy to code. Cons: could still interfere with other barrier-related issues.
Option D only keeps someone from sdesc sniffing me from across the world if I play with my barrier up 100% of the time.
I don't want people to be able to sdesc sniff my villians and roleplay knowing what they look like when they have never met them. True. I MIGHT play a villian who kept their barrier up 100% of the time as such.
I also do not want people my character has never met to sdesc sniff them and roleplay knowing what they look like even when I am playing a peaceful merchant, for example. Do I have to play my peaceful merchant with my barrier up 100% of the time to keep people from sdesc sniffing me from across the world with option D?
Well, I think the vast majority of the functionality is most useful for criminals, who will tend to want to be barriered most of the time, anyway...so when you weight the functionality of the code vs. who would use it, the fact that peaceful merchants won't benefit as much is a relatively minor consideration.
I'm not saying I don't like they keyword change idea--I think it's a great idea, actually. I'm saying that it's not a complete solution by itself. Granted, neither is Option D, but if we're going piecemeal, Option D introduces more of a fix, and it seems like it would be easier to code.
Of course, as an aside, I suspect that the coders prefer to work on things that are interesting from their perspective, and so coding something with a completely novel structure (e.g. changing the keyword system) is probably more interesting than tinkering with the equations governing success/failure rates of contact vs. barrier. So while reinventing the wheel may actually take more work, it might also be more likely to get done.
Quote from: Nyr on November 14, 2012, 02:13:41 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 02:03:44 PM
I would agree with you, except we do not have an IC reason to explain why you can contact people you have never met currently.
To be fair...we do.
The Way (Communication)
The Way, or the Way of the Mind, is the name commonly given to the use
of psionic (mental) powers on Zalanthas. Over several aeons, every living
thing in the world has developed some use of psionics. While the use of
the Way is not simple (it makes demands on one's consciousness, as measured
by your character's stun points), every character is able to make use of
it. Only psionicists, however, can truly claim to have mastered the Way.
See also:
guild psionicist, Psionics, stun
This just says, "The Way exists."
Am I missing the part about it explaining that we can reach the minds of people we don't even know just because we hear their name?
Not trying to be an ass, but, that appears to say exactly what I said.
The Way exists, the playerbase accepts that because the Way exists and we can do something, we do it, because it is coded that way.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 02:15:12 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 02:01:28 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 01:58:22 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 01:56:07 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 01:36:05 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 01:26:15 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 14, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on March 25, 2009, 03:03:27 PM
I've posted this idea before in the past, but for the life of me I can't find it using the search function.
Personal keywords is something I'd love to see implimented, whether in Armageddon the current, or Armageddon Reborn.
Here's how it works:
Keywords as we know it now will be gone, with the exception of sdesc keywords. Players will be able to add their own keywords for other players-- much how it works in real life. You meet someone, they tell you their name, you give them a nickname, you start knowing them by said name or nickname, all is well and good. This way, you won't have to sit and hope and pray that a character will addkeyword that witty nickname you gave them, you could just do it yourself. No longer will people be able to just contact you with the Way out of the blue, especially when they've never met you before, no longer will people get a bounty head's name, and type "look <bountyheadname>" every time they're in a crowd of people to find their quarry.
I dunno, I think it's a great idea.
What do you guys think?
Funny, this is exactly the discussion that has been going on staff side.
I'm a big fan of doing away with "The Way" all together just because it allows you to reach out to people and talk to people you have never even met before just because you heard their name in a bar on the other side of the world.
This is even better.
Qzzrbl, I want to have your mutant babies.
None of this solves the problem of sdesc sniffing by pulling a contact dark.cloak in a crowd. It only solves the problem of across-the-known sdesc sniffing by keyword.
Agreed.
But sdesc sniffing someone you have never seen in your life from across the world because you hear the name "Vardinok" and then roleplay you know exactly what they look like because you can do that is a much bigger issue.
Would I like to solve the problem of sdesc sniffing someone you are standing in the same room with as well? Yes. But, I would prefer to start with sdesc sniffing someone from across the world more.
Why settle, when you can kill both birds with one stone (Option D)?
Option D: Modify the barrier skill such that barriers are initially 100% effective vs. contact, but slowly lose effectiveness over time. Pros: fixes the problem if you're proactive, leaves ordinary barrier functionality intact, doesn't require coding an additional skill, should be relatively easy to code. Cons: could still interfere with other barrier-related issues.
Option D only keeps someone from sdesc sniffing me from across the world if I play with my barrier up 100% of the time.
I don't want people to be able to sdesc sniff my villians and roleplay knowing what they look like when they have never met them. True. I MIGHT play a villian who kept their barrier up 100% of the time as such.
I also do not want people my character has never met to sdesc sniff them and roleplay knowing what they look like even when I am playing a peaceful merchant, for example. Do I have to play my peaceful merchant with my barrier up 100% of the time to keep people from sdesc sniffing me from across the world with option D?
but if we're going piecemeal, Option D introduces more of a fix
While I would absolutely take Option D over what we have currently, I agree to disagree that it would be more of a fix than Qzzrbl's keyword solution.
I like D, I would just rather go the path of The Qzzrbl.
Quote from: Maso on November 14, 2012, 01:59:12 PM
I don't really like the idea of having to have to meet someone in order to contact them via the way. There would have be some kind of major world-changing magickal/psionic event to justify such a massive change to the social culture of Arm. This would be especially prohibitive in regards to clans that are spread over multiple cities.
The idea has it's pros and cons. But mostly I think it would cause such a shift in the day today life of the average Zalanthan that unless there was some kind of IC reason to back up why trade, travel, life, communication suddenly became so much harder - it would be incredibly jarring for the majority of players.
I'm OK with just a retconn. We've done it before regarding the Way.
I'm not sure that will lead to anything other than people being extremely specific with sdesc keywords.
Problem:
You know a PC, and you know their sdesc, and you know a nickname that's been connected between the two of you by the code, such that you can contact them with that nickname. You don't know this PC's real name, because fuck that, who is going to give -anyone- their real name, when they can be spoof-proof by using a nickname? You want someone else you know to contact this PC. In order to arrange for that 3rd person to contact your mysterious bud, you have to give them EXACTLY the right keywords to contact them. You have to say, "alright dude, he's an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair," otherwise it's never going to happen.
By attempting to fix the problem this way, you've made it even worse.
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 02:17:41 PM
Quote from: Nyr on November 14, 2012, 02:13:41 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 02:03:44 PM
I would agree with you, except we do not have an IC reason to explain why you can contact people you have never met currently.
To be fair...we do.
The Way (Communication)
The Way, or the Way of the Mind, is the name commonly given to the use
of psionic (mental) powers on Zalanthas. Over several aeons, every living
thing in the world has developed some use of psionics. While the use of
the Way is not simple (it makes demands on one's consciousness, as measured
by your character's stun points), every character is able to make use of
it. Only psionicists, however, can truly claim to have mastered the Way.
See also:
guild psionicist, Psionics, stun
This just says, "The Way exists."
Am I missing the part about it explaining that we can reach the minds of people we don't even know just because we hear their name?
Because if you hear a name...you can...reach your mind into the Way and seek out all the minds that identify themselves as 'Amos'...keep in mind there is no way to know that the 'Amos' you reach is the one that was being talked about when you overhead the name 'Amos'. It would be nice if people kept this in mind in an RP sense. But can be backed up a little by the fact that all the humanoid NPC's have names too, and you can contact them. And that PC's can also have the same name...and DO.
I think this whole scenario would be improved if the one-try-per-name limit was taken off (use a different primary key, trust players not to recreate old characters), and we had more actually common names and more 'mis'contacting...To emphasis the fact that while you can contact every Amos in the Known without having met them...it's pot luck, and you can't use that to actually -identify- them as the Amos you're looking for. If you know Amos, this avoided by contacting Bones.Amos (his nickname) or brown.blue.Amos etc etc.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 02:28:57 PM
Problem:
You know a PC, and you know their sdesc, and you know a nickname that's been connected between the two of you by the code, such that you can contact them with that nickname.
I'm following you here.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 02:28:57 PM
You don't know this PC's real name, because fuck that, who is going to give -anyone- their real name, when they can be spoof-proof by using a nickname?
Any time you give someone an "alias" you are supposed to addkeyword and add that alias to your list of nicknames. Do you not do that currently? I do that. If my name is actually Harry, but I tell someone my name is Bob, I instantly 'addkeyword bob'.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 02:28:57 PM
You want someone else you know to contact this PC. In order to arrange for that 3rd person to contact your mysterious bud, you have to give them EXACTLY the right keywords to contact them.
I see that you COULD do it that way, but, it would be extremely cheesy, and borderline code abuse. You would be intentionally cheating to exploit a loop in the code that was designed to keep you from doing exactly this sort of thing.
The proper thing to do would be to arrange a meeting of the third party and your mysterious friend face to face so that those two people could then communicate telepathically, having actually met each other.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 02:28:57 PM
You have to say, "alright dude, he's an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair," otherwise it's never going to happen.
If someone ever did that to me they would get a...
OOC: Hey man, you aren't supposed to bypass the coded restrictions of the Way by doing that.
And that would be followed with a submitted player complaint with the log attached.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 02:28:57 PM
By attempting to fix the problem this way, you've made it even worse.
I have to agree to disagree.
Quote from: Maso on November 14, 2012, 02:36:24 PM
Because if you hear a name...you can...reach your mind into the Way and seek out all the minds that identify themselves as 'Amos'...
Can you bold the section in the help file that says this for me.....???
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 02:17:41 PM
This just says, "The Way exists."
Am I missing the part about it explaining that we can reach the minds of people we don't even know just because we hear their name?
It's a bit much to expect every helpfile and every bit of documentation to explain every possible situation for every player. However, it really seems at this point that the argument about this has become pedantic, and it is beginning to become annoying. I'll be happy to lay out things clearly providing that this ends this line of questioning.
1.
Regarding The Way: The IC reason to explain why you can contact people you've never met is that everyone is psionic to some extent. It is in the helpfile for "The Way." If you need an IC explanation, you can read one into the helpfile for "The Way." If you do not need an IC explanation, you're fine. If you do not want (or do not want to accept) an IC explanation and still have a problem with this, see #2.
2.
Regarding sdesc sniffing: It's not against the rules, no, and we've made that clear. However, that doesn't give people carte blanche to be an asshole with what is admittedly not the best system in the world. (If we thought it was perfect, we'd say so.) If someone is being an asshole about said system, please file a player complaint against them. We will review it as we do with any complaints and we will take action as we see fit.
3.
Regarding any coded solution, but specifically one related to this thread: we can and will consider options, but if we don't go with your idea, you have #1 and #2 to fall back on.
There we go. That should cover everything.
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 02:41:09 PM
Quote from: Maso on November 14, 2012, 02:36:24 PM
Because if you hear a name...you can...reach your mind into the Way and seek out all the minds that identify themselves as 'Amos'...
Can you bold the section in the help file that says this for me.....???
That's just what the code does, regardless of what the helpfile says. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to contact the wrong Amos on accident.
Quote from: Nyr on November 14, 2012, 02:42:43 PM
It's a bit much to expect every helpfile and every bit of documentation to explain every possible situation for every player.
To be fair, I never said I "expected" it. I simply stated the fact that it didn't for this specific situation. I'm fine with the fact it doesn't. But when someone says it does, then quotes it, and it doesn't, well...I was at a loss.
Quote from: Nyr on November 14, 2012, 02:42:43 PM
However, it really seems at this point that the argument about this has become pedantic, and it is beginning to become annoying. I'll be happy to lay out things clearly providing that this ends this line of questioning.
1. Regarding The Way: The IC reason to explain why you can contact people you've never met is that everyone is psionic to some extent. It is in the helpfile for "The Way." If you need an IC explanation, you can read one into the helpfile for "The Way." If you do not need an IC explanation, you're fine. If you do not want (or do not want to accept) an IC explanation and still have a problem with this, see #2.
See, I didn't realize you wanted me to "read into" what it said. I was just reading exactly what it said. I didn't know I was supposed to be drawing assumptions of my own instead of going with the hard facts.
Now that I know that, I'm cool as ice and thank you for taking the time to explain that to me.
I didn't mean to rustle your jimmies.
Quote from: Nyr on November 14, 2012, 02:42:43 PM
2. Regarding sdesc sniffing: It's not against the rules, no, and we've made that clear. However, that doesn't give people carte blanche to be an asshole with what is admittedly not the best system in the world. (If we thought it was perfect, we'd say so.) If someone is being an asshole about said system, please file a player complaint against them. We will review it as we do with any complaints and we will take action as we see fit.
I'm right here with you. Cool.
Quote from: Nyr on November 14, 2012, 02:42:43 PM
3. Regarding any coded solution, but specifically one related to this thread: we can and will consider options, but if we don't go with your idea, you have #1 and #2 to fall back on.
There we go. That should cover everything.
That indeed does cover mostly everything I think.
Thank you.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 14, 2012, 02:43:07 PM
That's just what the code does, regardless of what the helpfile says. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to contact the wrong Amos on accident.
Which is my point exactly... ;)
Keywords are already enough of an OOC construct. They can be gamed, and can (intentionally or unintentionally) give advantages to some characters.
This is my pet peeve with "creative" keywords. Communicating who someone is gets this odd OOC factor, when my bynner says, "Yep, Faithful Lord. He was an elf with blue eyes. Taller than me. Skinny." Cerulean? Really?
I have seen closer examples, but they may be in play, and therefore too IC.
"rust-colored" Rusted what?
"honey" Green? Gold? IC or OOC?
"baobab-colored" The bark? The wood? The leaves? The flowers?
Choosing words that are not part of the usual Zalanthan lexicon offers a bizarre coded advantage, whether it is intended or not.
"What color was the elf's skin?"
Feeling OOC annoyance, you think, "Taupe."
>say I did not get a good look, sir. I will need to think about it.
>gone looking up the word to find a synonym because I can't use that word in character and have no idea what color it is, or have some idea but do not understand the exact connotations of it
I much prefer to use either setting-related words (though WTF is desert-colored? Red? Beige?) or common words with descriptors. If there are amethysts coded on Zalanthas, then that is an awesome word. Rubies? Cool.
"deep black"
"night black"
"solid black"
You get the idea.
I think the Way, and keywords, are fine as is. In an imperfect world with technical limitations to text-based games, it's a good solution.
... guys? Guys? Why are you looking at me like that?
(http://dailypicksandflicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Scared-kitten.jpg)
^
^
^
:D
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 02:39:14 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 02:28:57 PM
Problem:
You know a PC, and you know their sdesc, and you know a nickname that's been connected between the two of you by the code, such that you can contact them with that nickname.
I'm following you here.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 02:28:57 PM
You don't know this PC's real name, because fuck that, who is going to give -anyone- their real name, when they can be spoof-proof by using a nickname?
Any time you give someone an "alias" you are supposed to addkeyword and add that alias to your list of nicknames. Do you not do that currently? I do that. If my name is actually Harry, but I tell someone my name is Bob, I instantly 'addkeyword bob'.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 02:28:57 PM
You want someone else you know to contact this PC. In order to arrange for that 3rd person to contact your mysterious bud, you have to give them EXACTLY the right keywords to contact them.
I see that you COULD do it that way, but, it would be extremely cheesy, and borderline code abuse. You would be intentionally cheating to exploit a loop in the code that was designed to keep you from doing exactly this sort of thing.
The proper thing to do would be to arrange a meeting of the third party and your mysterious friend face to face so that those two people could then communicate telepathically, having actually met each other.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 02:28:57 PM
You have to say, "alright dude, he's an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair," otherwise it's never going to happen.
If someone ever did that to me they would get a...
OOC: Hey man, you aren't supposed to bypass the coded restrictions of the Way by doing that.
And that would be followed with a submitted player complaint with the log attached.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 02:28:57 PM
By attempting to fix the problem this way, you've made it even worse.
I have to agree to disagree.
You're misunderstanding the scenario. Under the new keyword system, you wouldn't have to addkeyword yourself, because anyone interacting with you would addkeyword to you. (In Soviet Russia, keyword adds YOU.)
Also, you can't arrange every 3rd party interaction, because sometimes (often, in the case of criminals) the 3rd party is someone you don't want to encounter in the first place.
e.g. private amos tells lord templar hardnose about slick willie the elf, and lord templar hardnose wants to tell slick willie to knock it off or there will be blood...private amos can contact slick.willie, but lord templar hardnose can only use cerulean.flame.elf
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:12:00 PM
You're misunderstanding the scenario. Under the new keyword system, you wouldn't have to addkeyword yourself, because anyone interacting with you would addkeyword to you. (In Soviet Russia, keyword adds YOU.)
Oh no, I'm right there with you. I understand this. But do you understand that you would be doing "both", if you gave them an alias that was not your real name? They could contact you with your sdesc, your real name, an alias you were going by, or the alias they added to you.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:12:00 PM
Also, you can't arrange every 3rd party interaction, because sometimes (often, in the case of criminals) the 3rd party is someone you don't want to encounter in the first place.
This is an IC consideration and not an OOC consideration. If the person IC is too scared to meet the criminal, or the criminal will not come forth to meet the third party...that is just an IC dynamic.
In fact, I like it and prefer it.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:12:00 PM
e.g. private amos tells lord templar hardnose about slick willie the elf, and lord templar hardnose wants to tell slick willie to knock it off or there will be blood...private amos can contact slick.willie, but lord templar hardnose can only use cerulean.flame.elf
Then Lord Templar Hard Nose has never met Slick Willie the elf, and as such, so long as Slick Willie the elf stays away from Lord Templar Hard Nose, then Lord Templar Hard Nose won't be able to harass him, telepathically or otherwise.
I REALLY LIKE THIS.
I fail to see the issue?
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 03:18:21 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:12:00 PM
You're misunderstanding the scenario. Under the new keyword system, you wouldn't have to addkeyword yourself, because anyone interacting with you would addkeyword to you. (In Soviet Russia, keyword adds YOU.)
Oh no, I'm right there with you. I understand this. But do you understand that you would be doing "both", if you gave them an alias that was not your real name? They could contact you with your sdesc, your real name, an alias you were going by, or the alias they added to you.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:12:00 PM
Also, you can't arrange every 3rd party interaction, because sometimes (often, in the case of criminals) the 3rd party is someone you don't want to encounter in the first place.
This is an IC consideration and not an OOC consideration. If the person IC is too scared to meet the criminal, or the criminal will not come forth to meet the third party...that is just an IC dynamic.
In fact, I like it and prefer it.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:12:00 PM
e.g. private amos tells lord templar hardnose about slick willie the elf, and lord templar hardnose wants to tell slick willie to knock it off or there will be blood...private amos can contact slick.willie, but lord templar hardnose can only use cerulean.flame.elf
Then Lord Templar Hard Nose has never met Slick Willie the elf, and as such, so long as Slick Willie the elf stays away from Lord Templar Hard Nose, then Lord Templar Hard Nose won't be able to harass him, telepathically or otherwise.
I REALLY LIKE THIS.
I fail to see the issue?
...the issue is that private amos is going to tell lord templar hardnose that slick willie is an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair, in order to get the mission accomplished.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:22:22 PM
...the issue is that private amos is going to tell lord templar hardnose that slick willie is an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair, in order to get the mission accomplished.
In which case I would hope Lord Templar Hard Nose, a sponsored role played by what should be a trusted player will do this...
OOC: Hey man, you aren't supposed to try and bypass the Way code restrictions by doing that. Also, as a responsible player, I won't be using that sdesc of that character I have never met to contact them. I will roleplay knowing basically what Slick Willie looks like, but, I won't be contacting that sdesc with the Way.
Then the player of the templar would also file a player complaint with a log.
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 03:25:00 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:22:22 PM
...the issue is that private amos is going to tell lord templar hardnose that slick willie is an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair, in order to get the mission accomplished.
In which case I would hope Lord Templar Hard Nose, a sponsored role played by what should be a trusted player will do this...
OOC: Hey man, you aren't supposed to try and bypass the Way code restrictions by doing that. Also, as a responsible player, I won't be using that sdesc of that character I have never met to contact them. I will roleplay knowing basically what Slick Willie looks like, but, I won't be contacting that sdesc with the Way.
Then the player of the templar would also file a player complaint with a log.
shit in one hand and hope in the other, see which fills up first
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:30:24 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 03:25:00 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:22:22 PM
...the issue is that private amos is going to tell lord templar hardnose that slick willie is an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair, in order to get the mission accomplished.
In which case I would hope Lord Templar Hard Nose, a sponsored role played by what should be a trusted player will do this...
OOC: Hey man, you aren't supposed to try and bypass the Way code restrictions by doing that. Also, as a responsible player, I won't be using that sdesc of that character I have never met to contact them. I will roleplay knowing basically what Slick Willie looks like, but, I won't be contacting that sdesc with the Way.
Then the player of the templar would also file a player complaint with a log.
shit in one hand and hope in the other, see which fills up first
I trust our playerbase to follow the rules when they are given direct guidelines and rules.
Will there be a few who slip through the cracks?
Of course. But, for the most part, I'm often amazed at how great our playberbase is about policing its self.
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 03:31:27 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:30:24 PM
Quote from: Desertman on November 14, 2012, 03:25:00 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:22:22 PM
...the issue is that private amos is going to tell lord templar hardnose that slick willie is an elf with cerulean eyes and flame-red hair, in order to get the mission accomplished.
In which case I would hope Lord Templar Hard Nose, a sponsored role played by what should be a trusted player will do this...
OOC: Hey man, you aren't supposed to try and bypass the Way code restrictions by doing that. Also, as a responsible player, I won't be using that sdesc of that character I have never met to contact them. I will roleplay knowing basically what Slick Willie looks like, but, I won't be contacting that sdesc with the Way.
Then the player of the templar would also file a player complaint with a log.
shit in one hand and hope in the other, see which fills up first
I trust our playerbase to follow the rules when they are given direct guidelines and rules.
Will there be a few who slip through the cracks?
Of course. But, for the most part, I'm often amazed at how great our playberbase is about policing its self.
The fact that things are fine and dandy within current constraints doesn't mean they will remain so when those variables are changed. That is, when there is literally no way for a 3rd party to contact someone without knowing their true name or having direct access to their exact sdesc keywords, I guarantee you people will start fudging and delivering those keywords. It might not be 100%, but there will be a marked increase in it from whatever the current baseline is. You can have all the faith in the playerbase you want, but I'm talking fundamentals of human psychology here. If you put people's backs against a wall, they will find ways to justify what they previously regarded as taboo.
Don't agree with the barrier change either..
Basically you want people to not know you are online/around.
I would argue that there is no real benefit to the game to allow everyone to do this.
Quote from: kayza on November 14, 2012, 03:50:56 PM
Don't agree with the barrier change either..
Basically you want people to not know you are online/around.
I would argue that there is no real benefit to the game to allow everyone to do this.
One day, you will do something that isn't really -that- heinous, but every good and neutral-aligned PC in the Known World will hunt you mercilessly, and you will have nowhere to hide, because everyone will know exactly what you look like. They'll know exactly when you're online (sometimes literally within seconds). You will never have met the vast majority of them. Oftentimes, they'll even know your guild and subguild, and know what to bring and how to counter it. If this doesn't at least annoy you, you may not be humanoid.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:45:28 PM
The fact that things are fine and dandy within current constraints doesn't mean they will remain so when those variables are changed.
The changing of the variables doesn't mean they necessarily will either.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:45:28 PM
That is, when there is literally no way for a 3rd party to contact someone without knowing their true name or having direct access to their exact sdesc keywords, I guarantee you people will start fudging and delivering those keywords.
That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. You have no data to back it up. Granted, I have no data to back up my opinion on the matter either. We will have to agree to disagree because neither of us has the ability to substantiate our claims.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:45:28 PM
It might not be 100%, but there will be a marked increase in it from whatever the current baseline is.
I disagree. Right now pretty much everyone does 'Contact Amos' even if they haven't met Amos. I would say at least 90% of the playerbase does this because it is NOT against the rules. Putting in a code to help prevent it, and then adding a set of rules and guidelines that outline the fact it is against the rules (which currently isn't the case) would, in my opinion, actually produce a marked DECREASE in the number of players that do this currently. When everyone does it now, I fail to see how we could see a marked increase, everyone already does it.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:45:28 PM
You can have all the faith in the playerbase you want, but I'm talking fundamentals of human psychology here. If you put people's backs against a wall, they will find ways to justify what they previously regarded as taboo.
Fundamentally, it isn't against the rules. It isn't taboo.
They aren't having to justify anything right now. Might a few people start trying to justify it? Yes, but, in theory we would have clear cut rules and guidelines that would prevent people from "justifying" it, without blatantly abusing the code and breaking the rules.
I have faith in our playerbase. I always have. These folks are great and I have seen them intentionally lose longlived characters when they had alternatives because it was the "right thing to do."
I have done it. I've seen other people do it. I have also seen some assholes.
I refuse to let the assholes ruin the fun for everyone else, because the majority of this playerbase is great. :)
*facepalm*
Whatever, man. You're the one who bitched about all of this in the first place. I'm not going to think about it anymore if you're intent on shooting yourself in the foot.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 04:26:10 PM
*facepalm*
Whatever, man. You're the one who bitched about all of this in the first place. I'm not going to think about it anymore if you're intent on shooting yourself in the foot.
I'm sorry that is your decision, I was enjoying your insight into the concept and found it most useful in refining my own thought processes on the matter.
So, help me out here, I'm totally confused. Here's some pretty -typical- situations. Tell me in simple terms the effect of your proposed changes:
My character is Talia.
Her mate is Dustwhirl. His real name is Malik, but he hasn't even told Talia yet that it isn't really Dustwhirl. He assumes that she assumes it's a nickname.
Her VBFF is Carft.
The templar she's met once, is the blue-eyed pale-skinned Jihaen templar. She hasn't ever spoken to him, she only saw him in the bar talking to someone else, who referred to him simply as Faithful Lord. She has no idea what his name is.
Talia is riding around the Known, and comes across the corpse of the green-skinned young man.
contact dustwhirl
What happens?
contact carft
What happens?
Are you suggesting that dustwhirl not be contactable, even by his own mate, if she uses the name she knows him as, to contact him? By what logic do you come to this suggestion?
Same question for Carft.
And, this templar that Talia doesn't know, but has only seen, has no idea what his name is, should she be able to contact him? Why? Why him, who she hasn't ever spoken to, but not her own mate, who she knows intimately?
Quote from: Lizzie on November 14, 2012, 04:49:32 PM
So, help me out here, I'm totally confused. Here's some pretty -typical- situations. Tell me in simple terms the effect of your proposed changes:
My character is Talia.
Her mate is Dustwhirl. His real name is Malik, but he hasn't even told Talia yet that it isn't really Dustwhirl. He assumes that she assumes it's a nickname.
Her VBFF is Carft.
The templar she's met once, is the blue-eyed pale-skinned Jihaen templar. She hasn't ever spoken to him, she only saw him in the bar talking to someone else, who referred to him simply as Faithful Lord. She has no idea what his name is.
Talia is riding around the Known, and comes across the corpse of the green-skinned young man.
contact dustwhirl
What happens?
contact carft
What happens?
Are you suggesting that dustwhirl not be contactable, even by his own mate, if she uses the name she knows him as, to contact him? By what logic do you come to this suggestion?
Same question for Carft.
And, this templar that Talia doesn't know, but has only seen, has no idea what his name is, should she be able to contact him? Why? Why him, who she hasn't ever spoken to, but not her own mate, who she knows intimately?
Nope, in this scenario Talia has met Dustwhirl face to face. You as the player have codedly typed, "addtelepath Dustwhirl man" or whatever you need to type to add Dustwhirl to your list of known friends that you want to be able to contact telepathically.
You are good, because you have met Dustwhirl face to face, you know Dustwhirl. Dustwhirl isn't someone across the world you have never met. You can contact him without any problems.
Your character has met Carft face to face. Same thing applies. You can contact them.
If when you saw that templar you made a point as your PC to look at them and remember them (typed "addtelepath "Templar's desc" name, or whatever the staff decides to code this as) then yes, your PC would remember the templar and be able to contact them too.
The only person you wouldn't be able to contact would be people you have never met face to face, or people that were so unimportant to your PC that your PC didn't bother remembering them well enough to contact them. (You didn't bother to codedly add them to your list of folks to be able to contact.)
Quote from: Lizzie on November 14, 2012, 04:49:32 PM
So, help me out here, I'm totally confused. Here's some pretty -typical- situations. Tell me in simple terms the effect of your proposed changes:
My character is Talia.
Her mate is Dustwhirl. His real name is Malik, but he hasn't even told Talia yet that it isn't really Dustwhirl. He assumes that she assumes it's a nickname.
Her VBFF is Carft.
The templar she's met once, is the blue-eyed pale-skinned Jihaen templar. She hasn't ever spoken to him, she only saw him in the bar talking to someone else, who referred to him simply as Faithful Lord. She has no idea what his name is.
Talia is riding around the Known, and comes across the corpse of the green-skinned young man.
contact dustwhirl
What happens?
contact carft
What happens?
Are you suggesting that dustwhirl not be contactable, even by his own mate, if she uses the name she knows him as, to contact him? By what logic do you come to this suggestion?
Same question for Carft.
And, this templar that Talia doesn't know, but has only seen, has no idea what his name is, should she be able to contact him? Why? Why him, who she hasn't ever spoken to, but not her own mate, who she knows intimately?
1. If Talia has pinned the keyword 'dustwhirl' to her mate, then 'contact dustwhirl' will contact her mate. If not, it will do nothing. As stated previously, I'm done explaining the whys and wherefores of this business. Maybe someone else will.
2. If 'carft' is Carft's true name, 'contact carft' will contact carft. If 'carft' is just a nickname, Talia will have had to pin the nickname 'carft' to him/her.
3. Talia can contact the templar by sdesc keywords, since she has seen his sdesc.
It's not that complicated.
To address the divergence between the two descriptions: forcing people to add every potential keyword to every PC they meet would be a giant pain in the ass, and I'm not sure that's what was actually being suggested.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 04:57:52 PM
1. If Talia has pinned the keyword 'dustwhirl' to her mate, then 'contact dustwhirl' will contact her mate. If not, it will do nothing. As stated previously, I'm done explaining the whys and wherefores of this business. Maybe someone else will.
2. If 'carft' is Carft's true name, 'contact carft' will contact carft. If 'carft' is just a nickname, Talia will have had to pin the nickname 'carft' to him/her.
3. Talia can contact the templar by sdesc keywords, since she has seen his sdesc.
It's not that complicated.
Synth has explained this better than me. Thank you Synth.
Though in a perfect system just knowing their true name wouldn't be enough, you would have to have seen them in person to pin their true name to them as "contactable" to you.
For the record, I have never like that idea.
Mostly because I think me having to work to be able to contact somebody again is lame.
I see no reason at all why the game could not do that automatically.
Been in the same room as Amos, Then you can contact him, either through keywords, nickname whatever.
I would not mind the idea as addition to what we have now, but not replacement.
For the record, we are talking about making true-names not be contactable either. Just their current keywords based on their sdesc alone. Name, any extra keywords you may have added will not work.
Honestly the idea that true-names somehow hold more power is something staff have tried to downplay and are poised to outright say they don't matter. If we go ahead with this change, the name of your character will be a convenience for you and staff for determining what to call the character. To all other players, it won't matter unless they do 'addkeyword <person> <keyword>'
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 05:24:49 PM
For the record, we are talking about making true-names not be contactable either. Just their current keywords based on their sdesc alone. Name, any extra keywords you may have added will not work.
Honestly the idea that true-names somehow hold more power is something staff have tried to downplay and are poised to outright say they don't matter. If we go ahead with this change, the name of your character will be a convenience for you and staff for determining what to call the character. To all other players, it won't matter unless they do 'addkeyword <person> <keyword>'
Morgenes, if you ever need a kidney, just call me, you have now earned the rights to my spare kidney.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 05:24:49 PM
For the record, we are talking about making true-names not be contactable either. Just their current keywords based on their sdesc alone. Name, any extra keywords you may have added will not work.
Honestly the idea that true-names somehow hold more power is something staff have tried to downplay and are poised to outright say they don't matter. If we go ahead with this change, the name of your character will be a convenience for you and staff for determining what to call the character. To all other players, it won't matter unless they do 'addkeyword <person> <keyword>'
I vote Yea to this change. If it makes any difference, I am willing to volunteer DM's other kidney to you...
Anyone who's played long enough and knows the system will have no trouble at all getting around any of the changes suggested, somehow or another.
The only people who will be -truly- inconvenienced, are new players who haven't learned the system yet, and don't know why they can't ever get in touch with the Byn Sergeant everyone keeps telling them to look for.
As for assigning me with the task of "pinning" keywords to people just so that I can way my character's own mate, forget it. Totally and completely not interested. The more OOC constructs and syntaxes and special exceptions and what not required, just to do a simple task that is already coded, the less people are going to want to do it. As it is, I already ignore the fact that the "mood" command exists. This would just be one more thing I'd ignore.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 03:58:24 PM
Quote from: kayza on November 14, 2012, 03:50:56 PM
Don't agree with the barrier change either..
Basically you want people to not know you are online/around.
I would argue that there is no real benefit to the game to allow everyone to do this.
One day, you will do something that isn't really -that- heinous, but every good and neutral-aligned PC in the Known World will hunt you mercilessly, and you will have nowhere to hide, because everyone will know exactly what you look like. They'll know exactly when you're online (sometimes literally within seconds). You will never have met the vast majority of them. Oftentimes, they'll even know your guild and subguild, and know what to bring and how to counter it. If this doesn't at least annoy you, you may not be humanoid.
What you are describing is no different than any other abuse of the coded system we have.
You can't just try to fix all abuse with code... that just isn't going to work. Also changing the code brings up other problems.
As I said in the other thread the problem is I don't want to see it easier to be more anonymous. I think abusing that is far worse than what we have now. Really that is my problem with it changing. A whole slew of people deciding I want to be a sneaky type because the staff made it easier.
What makes me more mad is when I run into that hooded figure..and I ask what their name is and they say "slim".. Luckily those characters tend to not last long.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 05:24:49 PM
For the record, we are talking about making true-names not be contactable either. Just their current keywords based on their sdesc alone. Name, any extra keywords you may have added will not work.
Honestly the idea that true-names somehow hold more power is something staff have tried to downplay and are poised to outright say they don't matter. If we go ahead with this change, the name of your character will be a convenience for you and staff for determining what to call the character. To all other players, it won't matter unless they do 'addkeyword <person> <keyword>'
How would clans like the Byn handle recruiting, if they could no longer post "contact Sarge Amos or Malik" posts on the rumor board? It seems like potential recruits would have to sit around waiting for Amos or Malik (which kind of defeats the purpose of having the recruiting post on the board in the first place), or the posted rumor would have to have sdesc keywords in it for newb PCs to get ahold of the Sarges.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 11:30:05 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 05:24:49 PM
For the record, we are talking about making true-names not be contactable either. Just their current keywords based on their sdesc alone. Name, any extra keywords you may have added will not work.
Honestly the idea that true-names somehow hold more power is something staff have tried to downplay and are poised to outright say they don't matter. If we go ahead with this change, the name of your character will be a convenience for you and staff for determining what to call the character. To all other players, it won't matter unless they do 'addkeyword <person> <keyword>'
How would clans like the Byn handle recruiting, if they could no longer post "contact Sarge Amos or Malik" posts on the rumor board? It seems like potential recruits would have to sit around waiting for Amos or Malik (which kind of defeats the purpose of having the recruiting post on the board in the first place), or the posted rumor would have to have sdesc keywords in it for newb PCs to get ahold of the Sarges.
"Those interested in joining up are told to contact Sergeant Amos of the Obsidian Fists. Those who ask what he looks like are told that Amos is particularly a tall and muscular man."
I don't see an issue with it. Honestly it makes more sense that in order to actually find a specific someone named "Amos" in a giant city like Allanak or Tuluk that you would at least need to know not only his name but also what he looks like, where he hangs out, etc.
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 14, 2012, 11:34:01 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 11:30:05 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 05:24:49 PM
For the record, we are talking about making true-names not be contactable either. Just their current keywords based on their sdesc alone. Name, any extra keywords you may have added will not work.
Honestly the idea that true-names somehow hold more power is something staff have tried to downplay and are poised to outright say they don't matter. If we go ahead with this change, the name of your character will be a convenience for you and staff for determining what to call the character. To all other players, it won't matter unless they do 'addkeyword <person> <keyword>'
How would clans like the Byn handle recruiting, if they could no longer post "contact Sarge Amos or Malik" posts on the rumor board? It seems like potential recruits would have to sit around waiting for Amos or Malik (which kind of defeats the purpose of having the recruiting post on the board in the first place), or the posted rumor would have to have sdesc keywords in it for newb PCs to get ahold of the Sarges.
"Those interested in joining up are told to contact Sergeant Amos of the Obsidian Fists. Those who ask what he looks like are told that Amos is particularly a tall and muscular man."
I don't see an issue with it. Honestly it makes more sense that in order to actually find a specific someone named "Amos" in a giant city like Allanak or Tuluk that you would at least need to know not only his name but also what he looks like, where he hangs out, etc.
Yeah, nothing's wrong with it, if you're willing to accept what was previously considered borderline abuse as the new norm. ::)
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 14, 2012, 11:34:01 PM
are told that Amos is particularly a tall and muscular man."
That's even worse.... :'(
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 11:46:10 PM
Quote from: hyzhenhok on November 14, 2012, 11:34:01 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 14, 2012, 11:30:05 PM
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 05:24:49 PM
For the record, we are talking about making true-names not be contactable either. Just their current keywords based on their sdesc alone. Name, any extra keywords you may have added will not work.
Honestly the idea that true-names somehow hold more power is something staff have tried to downplay and are poised to outright say they don't matter. If we go ahead with this change, the name of your character will be a convenience for you and staff for determining what to call the character. To all other players, it won't matter unless they do 'addkeyword <person> <keyword>'
How would clans like the Byn handle recruiting, if they could no longer post "contact Sarge Amos or Malik" posts on the rumor board? It seems like potential recruits would have to sit around waiting for Amos or Malik (which kind of defeats the purpose of having the recruiting post on the board in the first place), or the posted rumor would have to have sdesc keywords in it for newb PCs to get ahold of the Sarges.
"Those interested in joining up are told to contact Sergeant Amos of the Obsidian Fists. Those who ask what he looks like are told that Amos is particularly a tall and muscular man."
I don't see an issue with it. Honestly it makes more sense that in order to actually find a specific someone named "Amos" in a giant city like Allanak or Tuluk that you would at least need to know not only his name but also what he looks like, where he hangs out, etc.
Yeah, nothing's wrong with it, if you're willing to accept what was previously considered borderline abuse as the new norm. ::)
I don't think using someone's sdesc words to describe them is considered abuse at all. The feeling that it is unrealistic to identify someone based on their sdesc depends a lot on the sdesc; my understanding is the person who chose a generic sdesc to stop people from realistically describing them to others are just as much engaged in borderline abuse.
Now instead just OOC annoyance there would be actual IC consequences for having zero uniqueness to your sdesc. If you want to make a character whose sdesc makes him hard to single out, fine. But it's going to make it hard for people to find your mind all the time rather than just being something you use to complain OOC when you get caught.
As long as the playerbase doesn't make a habit about of always referring to people by by sdesc where currently they would just use a name it wouldn't be an issue at all.
I would actually okay with not being able to contact anyone you haven't met.
That strikes me as a dreadful idea. I'm not at all convinced that the scale of the problem -- and I assume that the problem is still "it's too hard for criminal/spy/sneaky types to maintain a measure of anonymity" -- comes anywhere close to justifying the inconvenience this would cause. I die a little inside whenever I see someone rattle off an sdesc verbatim (though, actually, I don't see it very often), but under the proposed system this would not only be normal, but expected. Short of knowing someone's exact sdesc, you'd be stuck playing a guessing game with the Way, or tavern sitting in the hopes that whoever you're trying to meet turns up -- and if you're a casual player, an off-peak player, a member of a clan with a schedule, or someone who doesn't like sitting in taverns, that's going to be pretty damn inconvenient.
And God help the poor soul who's trying to get in touch with Lord Derparian Oash, the atramentous, achromatic-eyed man, as there are only a handful of individuals in the Known who'd be able to tell you how to contact him without breaking character.
Is it unrealistic that you can contact someone you've never met and immediately know something* about their appearance, bearing in mind that we are talking about wacky mind magic here? I'm not struck by any glaring internal inconsistencies, though perhaps it's just because I'm used to it and can accept that, for whatever reason, the Way works such that when you contact someone you get a vague sense of how they look. That's just the Way it is (har har..)
Strengthening barrier vs. contact would offer some improvement without the across-the-board inconvenience, though I have no idea whether that would be as simple a change as it appears to someone who has no knowledge of "behind the scenes/find out IC" factors.
* And none of my characters ever treat it as more than a vague knowledge. I've seen enough incongruent sdescs/mdesc combinations -- and still more where I've made assumptions based on an sdesc, only to realize upon reading the mdesc that I missed the mark entirely -- to never, ever trust an sdesc to give me a full or even an accurate picture of a given PC's appearance. I can't believe I'm the only one to approach it this way.
Quote from: vissa on November 15, 2012, 10:24:20 AM
Is it unrealistic that you can contact someone look someone up on Facebook you've never met and immediately know something* about their appearance...
The Way could just be like a massive, wireless network that everyone's brains have evolved to be connected to. Zalanthas is just earth...millions of years into the future....they don't even need computers anymore...in fact, they've even forgotten what they were (since they were destroyed in some apocalypse or another)...Tek and the Sun King are the only ones with servers left hidden in their basement....
I'm not sure where I'm going with this.....but basically it's a fantasy game thus I can wrap my head around just about any premise.
Quote from: Morgenes on November 14, 2012, 05:24:49 PM
For the record, we are talking about making true-names not be contactable either. Just their current keywords based on their sdesc alone. Name, any extra keywords you may have added will not work.
Honestly the idea that true-names somehow hold more power is something staff have tried to downplay and are poised to outright say they don't matter. If we go ahead with this change, the name of your character will be a convenience for you and staff for determining what to call the character. To all other players, it won't matter unless they do 'addkeyword <person> <keyword>'
I like this in the sense that it would mean....you could... :o ...re-use names!
Proposal:
Contacting by keyword works ONLY when you're in the same room.
The tall, muscular man is standing here.
> contact tall
You contact the tall, muscular man.
> cease
The tall, muscular man walks north.
> contact tall.muscular.man
Contact who?
Contact doesn't reveal anything to you about the contactee.
The figure in a dark hooded cloak is standing here.
> contact figure
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.
The figure in a dark hooded cloak walks north.
As well as naming people in the room with you, you can assign a name to anyone you've succesfully contacted, and use it to contact him again.
> name contact Sneaky
You name the figure in a dark hooded cloak "Sneaky."
> cease
> names
Talia - the rugged, war-braided woman
Sneaky - the figure in a dark hooded cloak
> rename Sneaky Bob
You now know the figure in a dark hooded cloak as "Bob."
> contact Bob
You contact Bob.
> psi Did you get the stuff?
When someone sends YOU a psionic message, his sdesc is revealed.
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
The blue-eyed, bob-tailed man sends you a telepathic message:
"Y', I g't 't."
> names
Talia - the rugged, war-braided woman
Bob - the blue-eyed, bob-tailed man
You sing, in tatlum:
"Hey, I haven't met him
and this is crazy
but here's his sdesc...
arrest him, maybe?"
There, now you guys can get that song stuck in your head if it wasn't already there due to the title of this thread.
Given that this is my starting point:
Quote from: Bluefae on April 30, 2010, 07:16:49 PM
Before I ever knew there was a controversy about how and when it was appropriate to Contact others (ah, the "blushing ingénue" days ;D), I always thought of first-time, same-room psi-ing as though my character were deliberately concentrating on the object of her curiosity. As in, it wasn't that she could distinctly see the features of the person (assuming the previously-cited voluminous hood, et al.), but rather was reaching out with her mind via line-of-sight and connecting with another sentient.
Once "inside", at least on a surface level, she had some sense of what the other's likeness would be. I'm not certain this is in line with what the Staff has promulgated, but it seems to be. I'll readily admit this makes more sense with some sdescs vice others.
How about this as a somewhat simple compromise: the initial Way connection between the two parties
must be in the same room. This establishes a kind of psychic "link" between the pair. From there, the Way operates as per normal.
An important tweak would be: if you are successfully hidden, and no one can see you, you can't be Wayed by those who haven't yet established the psi-link. This mechanic would represent the "deliberate concentration" sited above (or phrased differently, if I can see them with my eyes, I should be able to contact their mind). If this wasn't in place, I could see some folks typing "contact dark.cloak" or some other tomfoolery if they suspected they were being shadowed.
In this system, sneakies could remain anonymous until and unless at least one person fingered them in the flesh, so to speak. No, it wouldn't prevent same-room sdec sniffing, but then, I'm not sure that's truly an issue.
A downside to this, as Synth already stated, is that newbies (especially) might have a hard time finding a Byn Sergeant/Kadian Agent/other potential employer or point of contact. I'd be up to the staff to decide if this con outweighed the cessation of gray-area code abuse.
Hm, Brytta, looks like we're proposing variations on a theme. =) I was trying to make mine as streamlined as possible. Yours looks more nuanced, though, and would allow for far more player customization.
I've suggested this before, and it's really rather simple if you eliminate the contact message. Then, just like any wireless, magickal head conversation, you have to make sure you've got the right target.
cont Amos
You contact a foreign presence.
psi Oh, hey, is this Amos?
You send a telepathic message to the tall, muscular man:
"Oh, hey, is this Amos?"
Neither party knows who is who until a single message is breached, eliminating all silliness for good. Because, I mean, who is going to psi "Hey, just gettin' ur sdesc, bro. Carry on"??
Alternatively, you can just change "A foreign presence contacts your mind" to "(sdesc) contacts your mind." Clearly, the problem is that psionics affords the initiator a level of unnecessary anonymity.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 15, 2012, 11:03:50 AM
Proposal:
Contacting by keyword works ONLY when you're in the same room.
The tall, muscular man is standing here.
> contact tall
You contact the tall, muscular man.
> cease
The tall, muscular man walks north.
> contact tall.muscular.man
Contact who?
Contact doesn't reveal anything to you about the contactee.
The figure in a dark hooded cloak is standing here.
> contact figure
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.
The figure in a dark hooded cloak walks north.
As well as naming people in the room with you, you can assign a name to anyone you've succesfully contacted, and use it to contact him again.
> name contact Sneaky
You name the figure in a dark hooded cloak "Sneaky."
> cease
> names
Talia - the rugged, war-braided woman
Sneaky - the figure in a dark hooded cloak
> rename Sneaky Bob
You now know the figure in a dark hooded cloak as "Bob."
> contact Bob
You contact Bob.
> psi Did you get the stuff?
When someone sends YOU a psionic message, his sdesc is revealed.
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
The blue-eyed, bob-tailed man sends you a telepathic message:
"Y', I g't 't."
> names
Talia - the rugged, war-braided woman
Bob - the blue-eyed, bob-tailed man
What would happen if you contacted Sneaky...(before his sdesc had ever been revealed to you)...but he was no longer wearing the cloak? Would he be forever remembered as the dude in the cloak?
I like Kismet's idea. Keep it simple.
If any of this were to happen. Which I don't even really feel is all that necessary. What are we talking about again??
Close, but this was suggested earlier:
cont Amos
You contact a foreign presence.
psi Oh, hey, is this Amos?
You send a telepathic message to a foreign presence:
"Oh, hey, is this Amos?"
A foreign presence contacts your mind.
The tall, muscular man sends you a telepathic message:
"Yes. This is Amos."
Several people have already pointed out some serious flaws with the personal keyword system, and I'm starting to reconsider that indeed it might cause more trouble than it could cause, psionically speaking. Now, while such a system might still be a good idea in general, it may be better to do something like the above fake example for psionics.
In the above system, it stops sdesc sniffing. The sniffee needs simply to not respond and no one gets an sdesc off them. However, people can contact strangers, and still verify identities and have a secure conversation simply by exchanging greetings.
I don't like the above. Many times, I've tried to contact pcs I've known and wound up contacting an npc instead. I would rather it just give the contacting party's sdesc to the person being contacted, as has also been suggested.
I don't think the system we currently have is a -huge- issue, a few twinks or newer players might abuse it, will will hopefully learn to treat its flaws in a more sensible way in the future. If any change needs to happen - I hope staff won't remove the ability to contact templars, Byn sergeants etc in name without having actually met them. It can already be quite difficult to get ahold of a clan recruiter as is, requiring that they are available face-to-face might turn into a huge playability issue, especially for offpeak players.
Quote from: Nyr on November 15, 2012, 11:07:28 AM
You sing, in tatlum:
"Hey, I haven't met him
and this is crazy
but here's his sdesc...
arrest him, maybe?"
There, now you guys can get that song stuck in your head if it wasn't already there due to the title of this thread.
Thread won.
Quote from: Maso on November 15, 2012, 11:30:22 AM
What would happen if you contacted Sneaky...(before his sdesc had ever been revealed to you)...but he was no longer wearing the cloak? Would he be forever remembered as the dude in the cloak?
Nope. You "see" whatever you contact him as.
> contact figure
(in the room)You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.
> contact sneaky
You contact Sneaky.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 15, 2012, 11:56:01 AM
Quote from: Maso on November 15, 2012, 11:30:22 AM
What would happen if you contacted Sneaky...(before his sdesc had ever been revealed to you)...but he was no longer wearing the cloak? Would he be forever remembered as the dude in the cloak?
Nope. You "see" whatever you contact him as.
> contact figure (in the room)
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.
> contact sneaky
You contact Sneaky.
Ooh, now that would be interesting--an intelligent parser that takes your input and uses that input to replace the target's sdesc wherever that sdesc would normally appear.
So if you only know someone by name, only their name will appear...so you can't glean any more information from using contact than you already had, unless they psi back.
picard.jpg
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2012, 11:59:55 AM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 15, 2012, 11:56:01 AM
Quote from: Maso on November 15, 2012, 11:30:22 AM
What would happen if you contacted Sneaky...(before his sdesc had ever been revealed to you)...but he was no longer wearing the cloak? Would he be forever remembered as the dude in the cloak?
Nope. You "see" whatever you contact him as.
> contact figure (in the room)
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.
> contact sneaky
You contact Sneaky.
Ooh, now that would be interesting--an intelligent parser that takes your input and uses that input to replace the target's sdesc wherever that sdesc would normally appear.
So if you only know someone by name, only their name will appear...so you can't glean any more information from using contact than you already had, unless they psi back.
That makes wearing a hood up be a cloaking device for the way. As now you can never find it unless you lower your hood. Don't like.
I think any drastic change will also have consequences not even realized until they go in.
Quote from: kayza on November 15, 2012, 12:10:45 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2012, 11:59:55 AM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 15, 2012, 11:56:01 AM
Quote from: Maso on November 15, 2012, 11:30:22 AM
What would happen if you contacted Sneaky...(before his sdesc had ever been revealed to you)...but he was no longer wearing the cloak? Would he be forever remembered as the dude in the cloak?
Nope. You "see" whatever you contact him as.
> contact figure (in the room)
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.
> contact sneaky
You contact Sneaky.
Ooh, now that would be interesting--an intelligent parser that takes your input and uses that input to replace the target's sdesc wherever that sdesc would normally appear.
So if you only know someone by name, only their name will appear...so you can't glean any more information from using contact than you already had, unless they psi back.
That makes wearing a hood up be a cloaking device for the way. As now you can never find it unless you lower your hood. Don't like.
I think any drastic change will also have consequences not even realized until they go in.
Well, as of yet, I don't think anyone's really explained why you should reasonably expect to gain new information merely by making a psionic contact with someone, unless you're a mindbender.
Intelligent parsing solves the recruiter-contact problem (you'll know his name by the board post). It solves the remote-sdesc-sniffing problem (you'll never be able to glean sdesc information merely by knowing a name). It solves the near-sdesc-sniffing problem (you'll never be able to glean sdesc information by contacting a figure).
It's not a cloaking device. It leaves you with exactly the amount of information you started with. The only way you could gain additional information is if the target psi back to you.
It doesn't solve the problem of delivering exact sdesc keywords verbally, but at this point, that's probably a problem dealt with best by telling players to knock it off, not by code.
However, one potential problem with intelligent parsing is what the parser will do in cases where the PC has a nickname or true name keyword that is the same as one of their (or other folks') sdesc keywords. So, for example...if your nickname is "Eyes," the parser could shit the bed on folks with reverse sdescs like "the man with blue eyes."
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2012, 12:21:16 PM
Quote from: kayza on November 15, 2012, 12:10:45 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2012, 11:59:55 AM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 15, 2012, 11:56:01 AM
Quote from: Maso on November 15, 2012, 11:30:22 AM
What would happen if you contacted Sneaky...(before his sdesc had ever been revealed to you)...but he was no longer wearing the cloak? Would he be forever remembered as the dude in the cloak?
Nope. You "see" whatever you contact him as.
> contact figure (in the room)
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.
> contact sneaky
You contact Sneaky.
Ooh, now that would be interesting--an intelligent parser that takes your input and uses that input to replace the target's sdesc wherever that sdesc would normally appear.
So if you only know someone by name, only their name will appear...so you can't glean any more information from using contact than you already had, unless they psi back.
That makes wearing a hood up be a cloaking device for the way. As now you can never find it unless you lower your hood. Don't like.
I think any drastic change will also have consequences not even realized until they go in.
Well, as of yet, I don't think anyone's really explained why you should reasonably expect to gain new information merely by making a psionic contact with someone, unless you're a mindbender.
Intelligent parsing solves the recruiter-contact problem (you'll know his name by the board post). It solves the remote-sdesc-sniffing problem (you'll never be able to glean sdesc information merely by knowing a name). It solves the near-sdesc-sniffing problem (you'll never be able to glean sdesc information by contacting a figure).
It's not a cloaking device. It leaves you with exactly the amount of information you started with.
You and many others are arguing that there are flaws in the current system. And I agree, but I think the solutions cause more severe problems.
As another mentioned out..
the ultimate goal seems to allow people to be able to not be identified easier
I don't think that needs to be done.
Any system you make to try to limit sdesc importance will do that.
Do you really think allowing people to be more anonymous is going to benefit anything?
Quote from: kayza on November 15, 2012, 12:30:08 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2012, 12:21:16 PM
Quote from: kayza on November 15, 2012, 12:10:45 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2012, 11:59:55 AM
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 15, 2012, 11:56:01 AM
Quote from: Maso on November 15, 2012, 11:30:22 AM
What would happen if you contacted Sneaky...(before his sdesc had ever been revealed to you)...but he was no longer wearing the cloak? Would he be forever remembered as the dude in the cloak?
Nope. You "see" whatever you contact him as.
> contact figure (in the room)
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.
> contact sneaky
You contact Sneaky.
Ooh, now that would be interesting--an intelligent parser that takes your input and uses that input to replace the target's sdesc wherever that sdesc would normally appear.
So if you only know someone by name, only their name will appear...so you can't glean any more information from using contact than you already had, unless they psi back.
That makes wearing a hood up be a cloaking device for the way. As now you can never find it unless you lower your hood. Don't like.
I think any drastic change will also have consequences not even realized until they go in.
Well, as of yet, I don't think anyone's really explained why you should reasonably expect to gain new information merely by making a psionic contact with someone, unless you're a mindbender.
Intelligent parsing solves the recruiter-contact problem (you'll know his name by the board post). It solves the remote-sdesc-sniffing problem (you'll never be able to glean sdesc information merely by knowing a name). It solves the near-sdesc-sniffing problem (you'll never be able to glean sdesc information by contacting a figure).
It's not a cloaking device. It leaves you with exactly the amount of information you started with.
Do you really think allowing people to be more anonymous is going to benefit anything?
Yes. Absolutely. 100%. That's been the entire point, from the very first post. It's not some hidden agenda.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2012, 12:21:16 PM
Well, as of yet, I don't think anyone's really explained why you should reasonably expect to gain new information merely by making a psionic contact with someone, unless you're a mindbender.
Except, when you establish the mental link, you
are supposed to glean that information. A rough image of the other end of your contact. You should be able to
contact figure and make a basic outline.
You shouldn't be able to contact someone, and drop the link anonymously. I do think that people would be territorial with their mindspace, and would have developed the awareness to defend it, if necessary.
If you replaced every instance of "a foreign presence" with someone's sdesc, it allows you to know who is entering and leaving your mind. It eliminates the most dastardly abuses of the Way, and makes juggling psionics a little easier.
It might even create roleplay. That dude who's been jumping in and out of your mind all week? Way him up, and ask him what's the deal. Hooded at the bar, and the guy across the room tickles your noggin? Go intimidate his ass.
It doesn't seem necessary to make complex changes, or reinvent the wheel, when the only problem for
anyone is that there is potential for anonymity to encourage bad behaviour. If you want to get a mental impression of someone via the Way, force them to COMMUNICATE. This is a concept with which we're already familiar.
Anyway, fix the problem rather than creating new ones. That is all.
Quote from: Kismetic on November 15, 2012, 12:43:10 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2012, 12:21:16 PM
Well, as of yet, I don't think anyone's really explained why you should reasonably expect to gain new information merely by making a psionic contact with someone, unless you're a mindbender.
Except, when you establish the mental link, you are supposed to glean that information. A rough image of the other end of your contact. You should be able to contact figure and make a basic outline.
You shouldn't be able to contact someone, and drop the link anonymously. I do think that people would be territorial with their mindspace, and would have developed the awareness to defend it, if necessary.
If you replaced every instance of "a foreign presence" with someone's sdesc, it allows you to know who is entering and leaving your mind. It eliminates the most dastardly abuses of the Way, and makes juggling psionics a little easier.
It might even create roleplay. That dude who's been jumping in and out of your mind all week? Way him up, and ask him what's the deal. Hooded at the bar, and the guy across the room tickles your noggin? Go intimidate his ass.
It doesn't seem necessary to make complex changes, or reinvent the wheel, when the only problem for anyone is that there is potential for anonymity to encourage bad behaviour. If you want to get a mental impression of someone via the Way, force them to COMMUNICATE. This is a concept with which we're already familiar.
Anyway, fix the problem rather than creating new ones. That is all.
The question of whether you ought to be able to get someone's sdesc merely by contacting them is a question of gameplay, not of IC mechanics. That is, would the game be better if you were no longer able to do so?
I think unquestionably the game would be better for spies, thieves, assassins, and various other rogues. And...isn't that kind of what the game is all about? Murder, corruption, betrayal? Remember all that jazz?
As it currently stands, the second you betray someone, anyone in the entire Known World who bothers to look up your name will be able to know exactly who you are, and be able to immediately pick you out of a crowd of potentially thousands of people. If that doesn't strike you as at least moderately stupid, I suppose there's no convincing you at all.
Hey, man, I'm of the mindset that the Way should not exist. The game would be that much deeper, imho. But while we're chained to it, let's keep it simple, silly. Root out the problem, and derp de derp, the rest is what it is.
On another note, there should be simple (read: elegant) functionality added to the barrier skill that benefits shady characters, somehow. Start a thread!
Where does the whole notion of being able to know what a person looks like through Psionics even come from? First of all, The Way is just an IC justification supporting the implementation of a global communication system, isn't it? I mean, is there pre-Armag Lore that I'm not familiar with, such as in Dark Sun, that supports it? I looked at the help files and, while there is a mention of being able to actively include imagery in psi messages, there's nothing indicating that a person, by default, sees an image of any kind using the Way. So is the notion that you can "see" the person just something that was made up by someone along the way and everyone just went with it?
Quote from: Kismetic on November 15, 2012, 12:56:36 PM
Hey, man, I'm of the mindset that the Way should not exist. The game would be that much deeper, imho. But while we're chained to it, let's keep it simple, silly. Root out the problem, and derp de derp, the rest is what it is.
Wait. WAIT A MINUTE.
You're complaining about intelligent parsing, because you're supposed to gain sdesc information by contact.
WHAT THE HELL IS ALL THIS THEN?
Quote from: Kismetic on November 15, 2012, 11:24:30 AM
I've suggested this before, and it's really rather simple if you eliminate the contact message. Then, just like any wireless, magickal head conversation, you have to make sure you've got the right target.
cont Amos
You contact a foreign presence.
psi Oh, hey, is this Amos?
You send a telepathic message to the tall, muscular man:
"Oh, hey, is this Amos?"
Neither party knows who is who until a single message is breached, eliminating all silliness for good. Because, I mean, who is going to psi "Hey, just gettin' ur sdesc, bro. Carry on"??
Alternatively, you can just change "A foreign presence contacts your mind" to "(sdesc) contacts your mind." Clearly, the problem is that psionics affords the initiator a level of unnecessary anonymity.
Apparently, you've been stricken with Romnesia.
Quote from: Maker on November 15, 2012, 12:57:09 PM
Where does the whole notion of being able to know what a person looks like through Psionics even come from?
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44616.msg721336.html#msg721336 -- covered here if you need it
QuoteFirst of all, The Way is just an IC justification supporting the implementation of a global communication system, isn't it?
No.
QuoteI mean, is there pre-Armag Lore that I'm not familiar with, such as in Dark Sun, that supports it?
Yes.
QuoteI looked at the help files and, while there is a mention of being able to actively include imagery in psi messages, there's nothing indicating that a person, by default, sees an image of any kind using the Way. So is the notion that you can "see" the person just something that was made up by someone along the way and everyone just went with it?
Not really. If it bothers you, consider it an OOC construct. If
that bothers you, consider it an IC thing. If both things bother you, you'll have to accept that it's as good as it can be considering existing code, and pick one.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2012, 12:21:16 PM
It doesn't solve the problem of delivering exact sdesc keywords verbally, but at this point, that's probably a problem dealt with best by telling players to knock it off, not by code.
(Though I also advocate: only allowing contact by sdesc keywords that are visible to you right now because the dude is in the same room not wearing a hood. If he's wearing a hood and in the same room, you can "contact hooded.")
(And removing "true name" as a keyword.)
(So you would never ever contact someone you'd not encountered in person.)
I'm pretty sure there's evidence for a default image but I'm not sure if it's appropriate to post. :-\
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2012, 12:59:46 PM
Apparently, you've been stricken with Romnesia.
No, I think our views are just different, Mr. President. I would prefer to change one nuance of the Way in a way that I believe would proliferate and enrich roleplay. You are seeking an entire overhaul of the way we, as a canon, perceive the Unseen Way (what an ironic title). Both of our opinions no doubt stem from frustration with the system, but I've termed my own less invasive (more irony).
Quote from: Nyr on November 15, 2012, 01:03:58 PM
Quote from: Maker on November 15, 2012, 12:57:09 PM
Where does the whole notion of being able to know what a person looks like through Psionics even come from?
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44616.msg721336.html#msg721336 -- covered here if you need it
QuoteFirst of all, The Way is just an IC justification supporting the implementation of a global communication system, isn't it?
No.
QuoteI mean, is there pre-Armag Lore that I'm not familiar with, such as in Dark Sun, that supports it?
Yes.
QuoteI looked at the help files and, while there is a mention of being able to actively include imagery in psi messages, there's nothing indicating that a person, by default, sees an image of any kind using the Way. So is the notion that you can "see" the person just something that was made up by someone along the way and everyone just went with it?
Not really. If it bothers you, consider it an OOC construct. If that bothers you, consider it an IC thing. If both things bother you, you'll have to accept that it's as good as it can be considering existing code, and pick one.
Unless I'm missing something, that linked post only says you should be able to contact anyone, not that you should be able to gain new information merely by establishing a connection. It seems like you're also admitting that sdesc-sniffing isn't an ideal situation.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2012, 01:08:51 PM
Unless I'm missing something, that linked post only says you should be able to contact anyone, not that you should be able to gain new information merely by establishing a connection.
QuoteIt's a bit much to expect every helpfile and every bit of documentation to explain every possible situation for every player. However, it really seems at this point that the argument about this has become pedantic, and it is beginning to become annoying.
QuoteIt seems like you're also admitting that sdesc-sniffing isn't an ideal situation.
Correct--nor is it the end of the world.
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2012, 12:52:14 PM
I think unquestionably the game would be better for spies, thieves, assassins, and various other rogues. And...isn't that kind of what the game is all about? Murder, corruption, betrayal? Remember all that jazz?
As it currently stands, the second you betray someone, anyone in the entire Known World who bothers to look up your name will be able to know exactly who you are, and be able to immediately pick you out of a crowd of potentially thousands of people. If that doesn't strike you as at least moderately stupid, I suppose there's no convincing you at all.
On thieves types - There are two types really, Ones that are obvious and ones that aren't.
1. The current system makes it hard to be the non-obvious thief. Which it should since having too many of those mild mannered merchant and master assassin a night concepts limited and difficult.
2. The other is the they are a thief because that is their lot in life and it is obvious they are one.. current system really doesn't affect them much.
On the betray idea..
It does but this is more to do with player base size than sdescs. I should be able to make new friends even after I betray someone(well maybe) But I can't because the player base in that location might be small and everyone knows them. The sdesc situation just helps that along but really it isn't sdescs that are the problem here.
To add to the discussion, I think that the opposite shore of this argument -- that people who want to be hooded and difficult to find should not be penalized by the Way, is best answered by increasing the effectiveness of barrier. Barrier is always getting crushed, and it's so annoying when they do so, and just drop out of your mind. That is really the easiest fix.
I think if you eliminated foreign presences and gave barrier a reasonable boost, you'd fix the whole argument. I agree it's not the end of the world, but is there a good argument as to why these things can't be tweaked, or even shouldn't already exist?
Quote from: Kismetic on November 15, 2012, 01:07:47 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on November 15, 2012, 12:59:46 PM
Apparently, you've been stricken with Romnesia.
No, I think our views are just different, Mr. President. I would prefer to change one nuance of the Way in a way that I believe would proliferate and enrich roleplay. You are seeking an entire overhaul of the way we, as a canon, perceive the Unseen Way (what an ironic title). Both of our opinions no doubt stem from frustration with the system, but I've termed my own less invasive (more irony).
Lol. I, too, would prefer to change one nuance of the Way in a way that I believe would proliferate and enrich roleplay. That nuance being the ability to sniff sdescs. Imagine having to actually *gasp* *horror*
interact with other players to figure out who the bad guy is, instead of reading his name on a rumor board and instantly knowing with a quick psionic contact!
I know, I know...it's almost too awful to contemplate. It would alter gameplay in such radical ways as having to use emotes, talks, and says to get things accomplished! People would have to start
plots! Can you imagine? It would destroy Armageddon as we know and love it!
Quote from: Kismetic on November 15, 2012, 01:28:40 PM
To add to the discussion, I think that the opposite shore of this argument -- that people who want to be hooded and difficult to find should not be penalized by the Way, is best answered by increasing the effectiveness of barrier. Barrier is always getting crushed, and it's so annoying when they do so, and just drop out of your mind. That is really the easiest fix.
I think if you eliminated foreign presences and gave barrier a reasonable boost, you'd fix the whole argument. I agree it's not the end of the world, but is there a good argument as to why these things can't be tweaked, or even shouldn't already exist?
Okay, that's the second time you've agreed with a proposal I support, while simultaneously purporting to be the con side of the argument.
This is starting to get a little ridiculous.
I've not changed my stance on these things from the start, good sir. I've suggested them in previous threads, galore. I disagree with your intelligent parsing method, as I think that needlessly changes our perception of the Unseen Way. If you're not on the 'mental image' ship, you need to climb aboard, sailor.
:)
Quote from: Nyr on November 15, 2012, 01:03:58 PM
Quote from: Maker on November 15, 2012, 12:57:09 PM
Where does the whole notion of being able to know what a person looks like through Psionics even come from?
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,44616.msg721336.html#msg721336 -- covered here if you need it
QuoteFirst of all, The Way is just an IC justification supporting the implementation of a global communication system, isn't it?
No.
QuoteI mean, is there pre-Armag Lore that I'm not familiar with, such as in Dark Sun, that supports it?
Yes.
QuoteI looked at the help files and, while there is a mention of being able to actively include imagery in psi messages, there's nothing indicating that a person, by default, sees an image of any kind using the Way. So is the notion that you can "see" the person just something that was made up by someone along the way and everyone just went with it?
Not really. If it bothers you, consider it an OOC construct. If that bothers you, consider it an IC thing. If both things bother you, you'll have to accept that it's as good as it can be considering existing code, and pick one.
You linked me to a response of yours that addresses how you can contact a person you've never met, but it doesn't address why one should expect to be able to know what said person looks like. Going by what you linked, it does seem like your saying the code is the way it is and saying that you can "see" someone using psionics is simply justifying the code being the way it is. Whether it's because no one really feels like messing with it or ignorance as to why it was designed that way...whatever. I was just trying to sort out why the expectation existed in the first place.
Quote from: Maker on November 15, 2012, 12:57:09 PM
Where does the whole notion of being able to know what a person looks like through Psionics even come from? First of all, The Way is just an IC justification supporting the implementation of a global communication system, isn't it? I mean, is there pre-Armag Lore that I'm not familiar with, such as in Dark Sun, that supports it? I looked at the help files and, while there is a mention of being able to actively include imagery in psi messages, there's nothing indicating that a person, by default, sees an image of any kind using the Way. So is the notion that you can "see" the person just something that was made up by someone along the way and everyone just went with it?
I think the idea is that when someone contacts someone else, the sdesc message allows the initiator of the contact to know if the person they have just contacted is their intended target. I think it's sort of assumed that when someone tries to contact someone else, they at least know enough about that person in order to find that individual among the virtual soup of others in the ether that is The Way. The argument as I see it is: how much should a person know about someone else before they can accurately find their mind and know it is the intended person.
Morg bought up the idea of personal familiarity and allowing players to determine how players add and recognize keywords between one another which I is pretty cool. I thought I'd expound on the idea of personal familiarity.
This idea involves all interactions between individuals. While it may be a little complicated at first, just bear with me. Imagine a situation where two characters are sitting at the bar talking, some level of familiarity is created between these two. Because of their interaction the the code somehow records their familiarity and these two people now "know" each other, even if they don't know each other's names (which they might). These two individuals could now recognize each other just by using contact. The alternative being that if they had no previous contact, their psionic message contact/psi/etc would be something similar to what Desertman has already proposed. Basically when someone contacted someone they were unfamiliar with they'd get the message "You contact a foreign mind." (or something similar). But if for some reason they'd have dealings with this person before and didn't realize it, they'd get their sdesc ("You contact the tall muscular man") and they might think:"Hey, I know this guy!"
It's the sort of code development that could evolve into something much bigger, involving lesser mundane aspects of the game (IE: cool stuff) but it wouldn't have to be too complicated to arbitrate sdesc information dissemination among users of the way.
Quote from: Kismetic on November 15, 2012, 01:34:53 PM
I've not changed my stance on these things from the start, good sir. I've suggested them in previous threads, galore. I disagree with your intelligent parsing method, as I think that needlessly changes our perception of the Unseen Way. If you're not on the 'mental image' ship, you need to climb aboard, sailor.
:)
Intelligent parsing was brytta.leofa's idea, actually. I do think it's a good one if we aren't going to pursue a barrier-boost solution. Hell, it would be a good idea in addition to barrier-boost solutions.
I think Options B and C were my ideas (both barrier-boost solutions), and someone else came up with Option D (also a barrier-boost).
So it seems the crux of the matter is that you think sdesc-sniffing should be legal, but made to be more difficult (especially if someone is trying to actively avoid it), and I think sdesc-sniffing is stupid and shouldn't be possible at all. I'm fine with being able to mentally image someone who you've met (even if it's as little as seeing them once in a crowd), or someone who has sent you a message themselves. I'm not okay with being able to mentally image someone when you only know their name. I kind of envision 'contact' for mundanes as a really shitty version of Google, where you search for a keyword, but only the keywords get highlighted until the target sends a message back to you. You can search for everyone named Amos, but the only thing you're going to know about them is that they're named Amos. You can search for all dwarves named Amos, but the only thing you're going to know about them is that they're dwarves named Amos. Mindbenders get the upgraded version, where with nothing more than a name or an eye color, they can delve into your deepest, darkest secrets, and discover that you have a tattoo of a dragon on your ass.
That's not a particularly drastic overhaul of anything, so I'm going to have to call shenanigans on your hyperbole.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on November 15, 2012, 11:56:01 AM
> contact figure (in the room)
You contact the figure in a dark hooded cloak.
As far as contacting people in the same room, I think this solves that problem.
Ideally, I would prefer a world where Amos jumped into the mind of your hooded PC, crashing their nearly impossible to beat barrier by using it repetitiously, and because they went to such trouble, you now have no choice but to kill them in a dark alley. And you can. Because you know their sdesc.
Quote from: Maker on November 15, 2012, 01:43:20 PM
You linked me to a response of yours that addresses how you can contact a person you've never met, but it doesn't address why one should expect to be able to know what said person looks like. Going by what you linked, it does seem like your saying the code is the way it is and saying that you can "see" someone using psionics is simply justifying the code being the way it is. Whether it's because no one really feels like messing with it or ignorance as to why it was designed that way...whatever. I was just trying to sort out why the expectation existed in the first place.
This is a text-based game. This text-based game has coded elements to it. The code supports a roleplaying experience in which players are expected and required to roleplay (see help rules, rule 1). The code is a certain way and it can be modified. Currently, the code allows a PC to use a command to contact other PCs and NPCs. While doing this, they get the short description of the person that they have contacted.
Some people may take this to be an IC thing. Others may not. Still others may view it as a mix of both--that it's the best that the system can do presently, so let's have a little bit of "give" on both sides of the equation (it's IC to imagine how someone looks after you contact them psionically, but it's not intended to be a verbatim regurgitation of an sdesc). The latter explanation is probably the best one. Regardless of your expectations, staff acknowledges that this (like other things in the game) can be abused and that abuse should be referred via player complaint.
All sides have something they can point to if they want to do so until such a time that there is a coded change.
We're looking at one option as Morgenes mentioned. It may not be feasible. However, in the grand scheme of things, this code has probably been this way for longer than most of you (and many staff members) have been playing the game. If we change the code, great. If we don't, okay--but you'll live, and you'll probably be bringing it up again a couple more years down the road. :)
Quote from: Nyr on November 15, 2012, 02:35:51 PM
We're looking at one option as Morgenes mentioned. It may not be feasible. However, in the grand scheme of things, this code has probably been this way for longer than most of you (and many staff members) have been playing the game. If we change the code, great. If we don't, okay--but you'll live, and you'll probably be bringing it up again a couple more years months down the road. :)
Quote from: Maker on November 15, 2012, 01:43:20 PM
it doesn't address why one should expect to be able to know what said person looks like.
I just wanted to comment on this one part of Maker's post.
Knowing that someone is "the tall, dark man" is not the same as knowing what they look like. The same applies for even better-detailed sdescs:
the wyvern-inked half-giant
Do you know where that ink is on the half-giant's body? Do you know how many wyvern inks there are on the half-giant's body? What color is his hair? Or scratch that - what color is HER hair? Which gender is it, anyway? Fat, thin, tall for their race, short for their race, what color skin? Any particular scars? Is the HG in possession of all appropriate limbs and normally-visible body cavities? Etc. etc. etc.
or even -more- descriptive:
the one-handed green-skinned man
The only thing you know about him, is he's a he - he has one hand, and he has green skin. Now granted, it's not likely you'll run into many green-skinned men who only have one hand. But if he's walking around with his arms hidden by a cape, for all you know, the guy you find in the scrub -might- be a different green-skinned man who has both hands, and isn't the guy you're looking for at all.
Could be there's twin green-haired men, who got caught doing something wrong, and the templar chopped off one hand on each of them. One of them wears only black. The other wears only red. Which one are you looking for?
When the Way lets you see a person's sdesc, you have to remember that it's very possible there are *hundreds* of people living in Zalanthas who would fit that sdesc, even if that isn't their actual sdesc.
The tall muscular man - might be Amos, whose sdesc is the tall muscular man.
The tall muscular man - might be Malik, whose sdesc is the green-skinned one-armed man - but Malik is tall, AND he is muscular.
You're getting just a tiny teeny eenie weenie bitty little bit of detail about a person when you find them over the Way. You get the same amount of detail when you see them in the bar, but don't "look" at them. Or if you see them 2 leagues away in the Red Desert with their hoods down.
The fact that you get their sdesc, even if they're unhooded, is because you're not waying their outfit. You're waying their minds.
At this point, I think there's some merit to the position of "No Way messages ever give sdec (excepting mindbenders)." So it's all "A foreign mind sends you", all the time. Newbies might still be Contacting NPCs vice recruiters, but the problem wouldn't be as drastic as if they had to meet said representative in person. And of course, sdec-sniffing would be impossible.
Does anyone have an elegant solution for the I'm-stuck-Waying-NPCs-and-I-don't-know-it snag?
I figure you'd tell the same way as if you're speaking to an NPC; if they don't reply, they're likely an NPC.
Quote from: Marauder Moe on November 15, 2012, 07:14:24 PM
I figure you'd tell the same way as if you're speaking to an NPC; if they don't reply, they're likely an NPC.
Fair enough.
Unless they're busy, or linkdead, or simply ignoring you.
And I find it curious that it says images right in the helpfile can be sent, yet people are worried about their sdesc being gotten.
It's just a part of how shit works.
It's how you know you've found the person you're looking for.
Or their psi skill sucks and they are TRYING to respond but are unable to find your mind.
Or they're really great with the Way but they are already mind-talking to someone else.
Or they have been mindbent and are incapable of responding for some nefarious evil mindbender-related reason.
In fact, there was even a time when an NPC had found my character's mind and needed a response - but it turned out that the staffer who sent the psi, was occupying a duplicate NPC at the time. So when I tried to contact the NPC, I wasn't able. The "original" NPC was not contactable at all. She was like perma-barriered or something. After wishing and waiting for investigation, I learned that you had to contact 2.talia, and not just talia.
Or we could just leave it how it is.
Quote from: Scarecrow on November 16, 2012, 01:00:45 AM
Or we could just leave it how it is.
*gasps, clutches chest, falls over*
Agreed.
Quote from: Delirium on November 16, 2012, 01:04:41 AM
Quote from: Scarecrow on November 16, 2012, 01:00:45 AM
Or we could just leave it how it is.
*gasps, clutches chest, falls over*
Agreed.
This. I'm too worried about no longer being able to join clans by waying recruiters I've never seen to really look forward to any change.
Quote from: Akaramu on November 16, 2012, 10:12:50 AM
Quote from: Delirium on November 16, 2012, 01:04:41 AM
Quote from: Scarecrow on November 16, 2012, 01:00:45 AM
Or we could just leave it how it is.
*gasps, clutches chest, falls over*
Agreed.
This. I'm too worried about no longer being able to join clans by waying recruiters I've never seen to really look forward to any change.
Intelligent parsing avoids that problem.
Well, I've read this all through, and while I can see (and have experienced) the unpleasant sdesc sniffing thing, I just accepted it as how stuff works here, muttered a little, and gamed on. Everything that's been suggested seems that it'd complicate meeting new people and expanding my roleplay circle, which is the only reason I'm here after all. Otherwise I'd just play Civ!
So, I'm for leaving it as it is, as the lesser of evils.
omfg
How would making barrier more effective, or changing sdesc keywords to names when using the Way (if you targeted with a name) make anything more difficult, beyond the obvious making it more difficult to sniff sdescs?
Have some god damn faith that Morgenes isn't going to fuck up the game. Have some faith that if there are unintended consequences, those consequences will be addressed.
Really though, I think the problem here is that you don't understand half of what's being discussed, read some of the more dimwitted posts in the thread, panicked, shut down your rational thought processes, and jumped straight to, "change bad." That's the only rational explanation for how you could so utterly fail to approach these proposals with a legitimate critique. I'm not saying you're incapable of it, but slow down...study the arguments, and then get back to us with something that actually makes sense.
(http://www.theporkchopexpress.com/storage/nerdrage.jpg?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1340471878568)
I have faith they are going to leave at is.. discussion doesn't mean they are going to do it.
(Edited for politeness)
+1 to modifications to barrier that will aid paranoid sneaky types. (I'd like the decaying type if possible, or whatever imms decide.) It'll make mindbenders more interesting too.
+1 to changes that will make expel a useful skill. Seriously, as it is now, it is only useful if you're a VIP. If the identity of who you contacted was hidden until you send that first PSI message, then you've built in a time delay that makes expel useful for any common criminal.
-1 to lazy retorts to proponents of changing barrier/contact. I don't care if changes happen soon or at all either, but the changes I am saying above do NOT have any impact on your ability to find recruiters. That's the only valid complaint I've heard, and yet it still fails completely in the face of my +1's.
I don't find expel an useless skill. I suppose most PCs are just (realistically) too ignorant or not paranoid enough to realize when would be a good idea to use it.
Expel? Never used it in over 5 years save for that one time I wanted to piss off my PC's boss.
Barrier... Now THAT is a useless skill.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on November 16, 2012, 01:36:58 PM
Barrier... Now THAT is a useless skill.
Agreed. :D I wouldn't mind seeing it made more useful.
Forever and always there will be a line players eventually cross when it comes to their characters and staying "in character." That line usually gets crossed right around the time their character might die. Some people might suddenly become smart instead of stupid to avoid death. Some people might give a perfect sdesc example to the law enforcement and have someone killed who mugged them even though they wore five layers of masks and fourteen hooded cloaks in the dead of night.
Its just the way it is, or at least it's how I've experienced it so far.
I do feel like I am one of the few people who see's something happen and when asked to describe the person doesn't give obvious sdesc descriptions. "The muscular, black-haired man"... which is rather generic becomes "Uh, he was strong and shit, beat me senseless. Had dark hair too." Or even better, "He was ten feet tall! HUGE! He had hands like a scrab! Dark and swirly death-magic! Oh, Highlord! Help us all!" Then you can spread mass panic and all that when it was really, "The willowy elf" who kicked your ass and you just dont want to admit to it.
Nothing specific. Thats how it should be unless someone is the, "Flamboyantly rainbow color haired lass with the obvious hot-pink full-face tattoo." And even then, if she had a mask on...
I mean its interesting and all to remove the element of knowing who you are contacting, but personally, it would just be annoying and not really solve the issue at hand anyway. Do you know how many times I've contacted NPC's based on the fact someone's name or sdesc is similar? I really don't need to be sending way messages and spending more time/stun to find out I didn't even find my friend. I sometimes did anyway, because I ended up waying the same NPC so many times I just talked to them every so often, but you get what I mean.
Quote from: AreteX on November 20, 2012, 10:14:17 AM
Forever and always there will be a line players eventually cross when it comes to their characters and staying "in character." That line usually gets crossed right around the time their character might die.
I don't believe that is true.
Quote from: AreteX on November 20, 2012, 10:14:17 AM
Forever and always there will be a line players eventually cross when it comes to their characters and staying "in character." That line usually gets crossed right around the time their character might die. Some people might suddenly become smart instead of stupid to avoid death. Some people might give a perfect sdesc example to the law enforcement and have someone killed who mugged them even though they wore five layers of masks and fourteen hooded cloaks in the dead of night.
Its just the way it is, or at least it's how I've experienced it so far.
I do feel like I am one of the few people who see's something happen and when asked to describe the person doesn't give obvious sdesc descriptions. "The muscular, black-haired man"... which is rather generic becomes "Uh, he was strong and shit, beat me senseless. Had dark hair too." Or even better, "He was ten feet tall! HUGE! He had hands like a scrab! Dark and swirly death-magic! Oh, Highlord! Help us all!" Then you can spread mass panic and all that when it was really, "The willowy elf" who kicked your ass and you just dont want to admit to it.
Nothing specific. Thats how it should be unless someone is the, "Flamboyantly rainbow color haired lass with the obvious hot-pink full-face tattoo." And even then, if she had a mask on...
I mean its interesting and all to remove the element of knowing who you are contacting, but personally, it would just be annoying and not really solve the issue at hand anyway. Do you know how many times I've contacted NPC's based on the fact someone's name or sdesc is similar? I really don't need to be sending way messages and spending more time/stun to find out I didn't even find my friend. I sometimes did anyway, because I ended up waying the same NPC so many times I just talked to them every so often, but you get what I mean.
With intelligent parsing, it could be coded such that you could
> contact Amos tall muscular man and receive both name and sdesc input...e.g.
You contact Amos, the tall muscular man with the Way. So if you really know someone closely, you're never in doubt who it is you contacted. However, if all you have is a name...sure, you're rolling the dice. However, if Amos sends you a return message, you'll know who replied to your Way, because I think pretty much everyone is on board with sdesc being visible to the target when using the psi command.
The tough question is how do you get the "intelligent" into the parsing without creating an input hassle. My guess is that you'd have to flag names with a unique variable, and the parser would look for a name match first, and associate the name with that. In cases of duplicate keywords (e.g. Blue the blue-skinned half-giant) it would associate the first name match with the name-flag variable, and simply spit the rest out as sdesc. You could even make it do partial parsing, so if you >
contact Amos tall man, you get the echo
You contact Amos, the tall hazy man with the Way, so you only return sdesc keywords that you knew to search for, and the keywords in the sdesc that you didn't search for would be replaced by words like "blurred," "hazy," or "something." Keywords added with addkeyword would automatically be flagged as names. And that brings up the question of whether you should be able to use multiple names as input, e.g.
> contact Amos Ripper and receive
You contact Amos, aka Ripper with the Way. My initial thought is "no," because that defeats the anonymity purpose of the intelligent parser. In that case, I'd have it so that the parser grabs the first name keyword, associates it with the name-flagged variable, then automatically junks the rest of the input as sdesc...so it would fail to match Ripper with anything, and you'd only see the keyword Amos in the contact echo. You also have to anticipate generic contact searches, e.g.
> contact blue red. In that case, you could return something like
You contact the blue-blurred, red-hazy someone with the Way. It's aesthetically in-line with the way Armageddon looks on the page, and it doesn't give you any additional information. Edit: on second thought, that return echo -does- give you additional information about the format of the sdesc. For example, if you
> contact talia blue red, and the return is "
You contact Talia, the blue-blurred, red-hazy someone," you know the format of Talia's sdesc. That is, you now know it isn't "the woman with blue and red hair." I'm initially okay with that--granted, it could be abused, but it would be in a pretty convoluted, low-probability situation.
Overall, it's a pretty minor inconvenience for most scenarios. Of course, it's a major inconvenience for sdesc sniffing, which is the point.
How's that for a suggestion. Make barrier much more effective for blocking contact attempts, but give everyone an ability to remember faces.
Say every pc can remember so many faces, depending on his contact skill and wisdom. With half giants with maxed contact being able to remember somewhere around 2-4, and an elf with maxed contact AI wisdom somewhere around 12-20.
Remembering a face requires you to be in the same room with him and demands you to type out the "exact" sdesc of the character. Once you remembered the face, you have a 'significant' bonus to breaking a person's barrier and just generally establishing contact.
To a point where it is as easy to break someone's barrier as it is now, provided equal skill levels in psionic skills and whatever stats. And 'extremely' difficult, to break someone's barrier of someone whose face you did 'not' remember.
Make those faces fade with time, based on triggers like character aging, reels, going into neg hp, unconsciousness due to drinking alcohol or even any type of other forced unconsciousness, skellebane, whatever.
Quote from: Dar on November 20, 2012, 09:26:12 PM
stuff
No thanks, I don't approve of code telling me who I don't and do remember, I forget faces easily enough by myself. I also forget names easily enough by myself.