Get rid of this shit. We don't need it. Why do we have players asking to play roles they lack the karma for? That defeats the purpose of the karma system. If you don't have the karma necessary to play a nilazi, then too bad.
If you do not have karma and feel like you've been overlooked, request your account notes. It works.
Allow players to ask for sponsored roles in clans and such, so long as they have the karma. Allow players to request extra skills or perhaps other things to round out a unique concept they have in mind, so long as they have proven themselves capable in the past.
I'm tired of buttons that launch nuclear weapons being put beneath the twitching digits of tards.
Cutting out these sort of special applications will free up immortal time and let staffers focus on what they -should- be spending their time on: clans, their players, and Armageddon Reborn.
I've gotten exactly 1 of my 5 karma points by a staff member actually giving me a high-five. The rest I've earned as a result of requesting characters by special application, and then playing them responsibly enough to keep the options. The Staff don't have enough time to watch over every player in the game closely enough to reward everyone for doing a good job. The special application system functions sort of as a "trial run" for players who have otherwise gone unrecognized: you get one chance to prove you can handle the responsibility, and if you blow it, it'll be a long time before you earn enough trust to give it another shot.
So, no. Sorry you apparently got burned, but the system works.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 19, 2008, 12:31:04 AM
I've gotten exactly 1 of my 5 karma points by a staff member actually giving me a high-five.
And I've gotten all of mine by asking for staff to review my account notes, and by also playing sensitive roles that garnered more attention from staff, i.e. serving as a clan leader.
It is my opinion that having staff look over your account every year will, on average, yield a karma point if you have nothing negative against you. Something akin to "Set karma to 2, seems to be doing well, no complaints."
Quote from: Synthesis on December 19, 2008, 12:31:04 AM
The Staff don't have enough time to watch over every player in the game closely enough to reward everyone for doing a good job.
Hence, requesting staff to look over your account notes.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 19, 2008, 12:31:04 AM
The special application system functions sort of as a "trial run" for players who have otherwise gone unrecognized.
I don't think letting an unproven player test drive a Ferrari is a good idea.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 19, 2008, 12:31:04 AM
You get one chance to prove you can handle the responsibility, and if you blow it, it'll be a long time before you earn enough trust to give it another shot.
Or you could prove to staff you can handle the responsibility by faithfully abiding by the documentation in a clan/tribe for a few in game years. Learn to stay alive for prolonged periods of time, promote plots, and drive other players to roleplay with their surrounding environment. Most players who are "good" are usually recognized. Those that fall through the cracks, as I have stated previously, can easily request a review of their account. Review flag does wonders, also.
Quote from: Synthesis on December 19, 2008, 12:31:04 AM
So, no. Sorry you apparently got burned, but the system works.
No, I was not burned. I've mulled over how things have changed with this mud over the past few years, and have come to the conclusion that:
Over time, enough players have accrued at least a few points of karma that an influx of karma-sensitive characters may potentially populate the mud at any given time.
Also, when coupled with special application karma-roles, you receive an even greater influx (potentially, if you take a conservative approach and settle on at least half of players who have karma use it on a semi-regular basis).
I disagree with you that the system works. I have witnessed countless times players mishandling high-karma roles. It's disheartening to see.
The staff are extremely picky when they allow you to play a special application.
Plus I'm pretty damned sure if Nessalin or Belenos or whoever is doing the special applications approves someone to play say a Mindbender, I'm sure they watch that person like a hawk. So if he starts melting brains of newbies, I'm pretty sure he'll be yanked anyways.
Special applications are awesome, I just wish that they didn't have such a long time limit on them. (In case you're denied)
JaRoD
QuoteGet rid of this shit. We don't need it. Why do we have players asking to play roles they lack the karma for? That defeats the purpose of the karma system. If you don't have the karma necessary to play a nilazi, then too bad.
The karma system only worked when the player-to-staff ratio was much lower. Now we have a very active playerbase which makes monitoring players AND working on Arm 2.0 quite a task. Special applications allow players who have happened to achieve certain notes on their account to prove themselves further to staff with sensitive roles. If they're handled badly, then they're reprimanded. Bad behavior is almost always caught, as opposed to good behavior.
Quote
If you do not have karma and feel like you've been overlooked, request your account notes. It works.
On my last point, this doesn't always. Perhaps you have one or two very good notes, but it's not enough to spark interest in awarding karma, then now you have to wait six months.
Quote
Allow players to ask for sponsored roles in clans and such, so long as they have the karma. Allow players to request extra skills or perhaps other things to round out a unique concept they have in mind, so long as they have proven themselves capable in the past.
This is doable in my mind.
Quote
I'm tired of buttons that launch nuclear weapons being put beneath the twitching digits of tards.
I'd wager that the amount of people with karma that are not handling characters correctly and those who specially apply for them are around the same.
QuoteCutting out these sort of special applications will free up immortal time and let staffers focus on what they -should- be spending their time on: clans, their players, and Armageddon Reborn.
Special applications take up the time of ONE immortal. This immortal is chosen because they can obviously spare the time.
Quote from: Archbaron on December 19, 2008, 01:01:20 AM
The karma system only worked when the player-to-staff ratio was much lower.
Ten years ago our playerbase would fluctuate at around the same levels as they do now, with even less staff.
Quote from: Archbaron on December 19, 2008, 01:01:20 AM
[...]AND working on Arm 2.0 quite a task.
You have a point here.
Quote from: Archbaron on December 19, 2008, 01:01:20 AM
Bad behavior is almost always caught, as opposed to good behavior.
Are you speaking from experience, or just with an air of sarcasm?
Quote from: Archbaron on December 19, 2008, 01:01:20 AM
I'd wager that the amount of people with karma that are not handling characters correctly and those who specially apply for them are around the same.
You'd likely be wrong, though neither of us know for sure.
Quote from: Archbaron on December 19, 2008, 01:01:20 AM
This immortal is chosen because they can obviously spare the time.
I'm not so certain this is the case. They probably just pulled the short straw. ;)
Quote from: Lakota on December 19, 2008, 01:12:12 AM
Ten years ago our playerbase would fluctuate at around the same levels as they do now, with even less staff.
Maybe if you were smoking crack. I pulled out my logs from the destruction of Tuluk (that's destruction, not conquering+occupation), and the HRPT netted about 44 players.
44 players for the destruction of a major city.
QuoteTen years ago our playerbase would fluctuate at around the same levels as they do now, with even less staff.
Armageddon didn't have peaks of 60-80 per night ten years ago, I'd wager.
QuoteAre you speaking from experience, or just with an air of sarcasm?
A little of both. The point being, someone going with the flow and doing what needs to be done is much more overlooked than that spamcaster or sneak-spammer.
QuoteYou'd likely be wrong, though neither of us know for sure.
Right, then how can you use that in your argument in the first place?
Quote
I'm not so certain this is the case. They probably just pulled the short straw. ;)
I wouldn't be so quick to say that. This is a volunteer position, they're not going to be shoved into a corner with stacks of time-consuming applications if they didn't want to.
If spec apps are going crazy, a helpful rule might be: no applyin' for published options more than two karma above your current level. (If you enumerate such a rule with one karma instead of two, you'll have a lot of halfhearted delf and half-giant applications, and surely nobody wants that.)
Though I expect that that's already more or less the rule of thumb.
I'm with Lakota. Special apps always seemed like an unecessary headache.
That said, a hardline "no" might end up being a turnoff to many players. Is there a happy medium? Is it what we have (i.e. low priority special application que, with a lot of players whining about how long it takes to get through the system)?
The thing about special applications that I argue is the fact that they allow for finer crafting of characters. Aside from people applying for generic karma levels, a lot of people apply for characters with special exceptions or skills or expertise out of the box. Now, most would argue that "Oh, these players should pursue that IC." But in all truthfulness, some things require staff intervention, and most staff would tell players to pursue it through a special application because then all the things wanted by a character are laid out in the beginning.
I've got mixed feelings on the topic.
On one hand, I enjoy the idea of special apps because sometimes it isn't just about wanting to app into a clan or wanting to play something above your karma level. Even if "i'm at 2 karma and want to play a krathi" special apps were removed, I'd like to see the feature kept as-is (being a low priority option but still existent) for people who want to play truly 'special' applications that aren't clan specific and wouldn't go through clan immortals.
If I want to start a character with some pre-branched skills or maybe a character with some extra skills that coincide with their subguild, I'd like there to still be an option. Hell, I was told I'd have to special app it if I wanted to play a character with northern accent and Tuluki caste tattoos but not start in Tuluk. Concepts like that shouldn't be barred just because they're "special."
That said, I've long been in favour of Brytta's suggestion in regards to only being able to apply for "regular" karma roles if they're within 2 or 3 of your karma level.
Good players DO fall through the cracks. The karma system isn't flawless. Unfortunately, other than having a specific set of staffers assigned to doing karma reviews, I can't think of anything that would really help. And that would waste even more time than special applications already do.
Quote from: Fathi on December 19, 2008, 01:35:24 AM
On one hand, I enjoy the idea of special apps because sometimes it isn't just about wanting to app into a clan or wanting to play something above your karma level. Even if "i'm at 2 karma and want to play a krathi" special apps were removed, I'd like to see the feature kept as-is (being a low priority option but still existent) for people who want to play truly 'special' applications that aren't clan specific and wouldn't go through clan immortals.
If I want to start a character with some pre-branched skills or maybe a character with some extra skills that coincide with their subguild, I'd like there to still be an option. Hell, I was told I'd have to special app it if I wanted to play a character with northern accent and Tuluki caste tattoos but not start in Tuluk. Concepts like that shouldn't be barred just because they're "special."
This sums up what I think in more beautiful words.
Quote from: Archbaron on December 19, 2008, 01:26:39 AM
Right, then how can you use that in your argument in the first place?
Did I?
Quote from: Archbaron on December 19, 2008, 01:26:39 AM
I wouldn't be so quick to say that. This is a volunteer position, they're not going to be shoved into a corner with stacks of time-consuming applications if they didn't want to.
I honestly doubt anyone volunteers to do special applications unless they're just being nice. Or have a deathwish.
Quote from: Fathi on December 19, 2008, 01:35:24 AM
I'd like to see the feature kept as-is (being a low priority option but still existent) for people who want to play truly 'special' applications that aren't clan specific and wouldn't go through clan immortals.
As would I.
Quote from: Fathi on December 19, 2008, 01:35:24 AM
If I want to start a character with some pre-branched skills or maybe a character with some extra skills that coincide with their subguild, I'd like there to still be an option.
I agree. I just don't think that allowing players with 3 karma the chance to play a nilaz is very wise.
QuoteDid I?
Quote from: Lakota
I'm tired of buttons that launch nuclear weapons being put beneath the twitching digits of tards.
That's what I interpreted.
Quote from: Lakota on December 19, 2008, 12:20:59 AM
Get rid of this shit. We don't need it. Why do we have players asking to play roles they lack the karma for? That defeats the purpose of the karma system. If you don't have the karma necessary to play a nilazi, then too bad.
If you do not have karma and feel like you've been overlooked, request your account notes. It works.
Allow players to ask for sponsored roles in clans and such, so long as they have the karma. Allow players to request extra skills or perhaps other things to round out a unique concept they have in mind, so long as they have proven themselves capable in the past.
I'm tired of buttons that launch nuclear weapons being put beneath the twitching digits of tards.
Cutting out these sort of special applications will free up immortal time and let staffers focus on what they -should- be spending their time on: clans, their players, and Armageddon Reborn.
I disagree with this entirely. I went through my first six pc's one of which was a fifteen day pc, without getting a point of karma, or a single account note. It was only after I requested to do a special app (my first delf) that I was actually permitted my first point of karma. I'd be more in favor of getting rid of Karma, and having everything done through special apps, but that would make the staff's job even harder.
Quote from: Archbaron on December 19, 2008, 02:07:50 AM
QuoteDid I?
Quote from: Lakota
I'm tired of buttons that launch nuclear weapons being put beneath the twitching digits of tards.
That's what I interpreted.
I see. I didn't say everyone did it. Some do excel. A few bad apples, though...well, you get it.
Actually to correct the above, I don't disagree with it entirely. I'd like to see more moderation, and better adherence to the documentation. No non-human psionics, less sorcerors for people that don't have the karma. Stuff like that.
Quote from: Lakota on December 19, 2008, 12:20:59 AM
Get rid of this shit. We don't need it. Why do we have players asking to play roles they lack the karma for? That defeats the purpose of the karma system. If you don't have the karma necessary to play a nilazi, then too bad.
If you do not have karma and feel like you've been overlooked, request your account notes. It works.
Allow players to ask for sponsored roles in clans and such, so long as they have the karma. Allow players to request extra skills or perhaps other things to round out a unique concept they have in mind, so long as they have proven themselves capable in the past.
I'm tired of buttons that launch nuclear weapons being put beneath the twitching digits of tards.
Cutting out these sort of special applications will free up immortal time and let staffers focus on what they -should- be spending their time on: clans, their players, and Armageddon Reborn.
1) I don't think staff is spending THAT much time on special apps.
2) There are other reasons for special apping than playing something above your karma limit.
Quote from: Clearsighted on December 19, 2008, 03:12:35 AM
1) I don't think staff is spending THAT much time on special apps.
2) There are other reasons for special apping than playing something above your karma limit.
I know. Read the rest of my posts.
Edit**
Here:
Quote from: LakotaAllow players to ask for sponsored roles in clans and such, so long as they have the karma. Allow players to request extra skills or perhaps other things to round out a unique concept they have in mind, so long as they have proven themselves capable in the past.
From the op.
In other words, allow for players to request special skills, sponsored roles, and other unique attributes they would otherwise be unable to get from chargen.
Quote from: Lakota on December 19, 2008, 12:20:59 AM
I'm tired of buttons that launch nuclear weapons being put beneath the twitching digits of tards.
Guess we better take warrior, ranger and assassin off the 0-karma list, then!
Quote from: jstorrie on December 19, 2008, 03:15:55 AM
Quote from: Lakota on December 19, 2008, 12:20:59 AM
I'm tired of buttons that launch nuclear weapons being put beneath the twitching digits of tards.
Guess we better take warrior, ranger and assassin off the 0-karma list, then!
Yeah, because they are as strong as four spells off the top of my head that can potentially kill everyone in the room at once! ::)
How about we drop everyone to 0 karma and make everything else a special app?
I tend to agree with Lakota on this one.
My performance drastically improves when I know that I am being watched. I can jump over my head when placed in the same room with ERS*, LOD* and Malifaxis* and given a central role on the stage. Unfortunately, while evaluating the level of harm I am able to bring to the game, it's my lowest, instead of highest, level of responsibility karma system should be concerned with. I don't think that it's good idea to base the only system of player motivation upon one-time and very special one-life performances.
Even if we insist to evaluate special roles for permanent karma, I would suggest to put more emphasis on how people handle jobs instead of how they abuse reward. Increasing level of concurrence among less desirable sponsored roles such as noble and GMH family members should be more effective than spawning the world with already beyond popular magickers.
Among the other things, these roles are a great school of being constructive, while using very little of one's own coded abilities.
It's not the raw damage in the hands of the unworthy that frightens me, it's the popular belief that there is nothing left in the game other than killing "mobs" and collecting boots.
* - the name is provided by random name genertor and bears no connection with a real person, creature or event
The staff seem to have mentioned many, many times that it's the lowest priority. And by that, I'm assuming that even if all of them do it, they do it after everything else is finished.
Hmm.. I don't know. I've never really seen power abuse in the game. If anyone's playing above their karma, then they're apparently doing the right thing. Except those 'gickers who are just being dicks; I've only heard rumors about them, so it's entirely possible that they're playing well and actually spreading rumors about themselves rather than abusing their powers.
You know what shouldn't be 0-karma? Pickpockets. Gah, I'd like to smack the next guy who tries to pickpocket soldiers but avoid PCs.
I'm all for not allowing people to app roles that are one or two karma above what they currently have.
But I'll be damned if I'm denied my chance to app that flying, poisoned-fanged, disease-ridden, sewer-crawling, shorter-than-allowed, lighter-than-allowed, can-see-in-the-dark, can-burn-you-with-pee mutant of doom.
:(
Quote from: Lakota on December 19, 2008, 12:20:59 AM
Why do we have players asking to play roles they lack the karma for? That defeats the purpose of the karma system. If you don't have the karma necessary to play a nilazi, then too bad.
To answer the question, we have the special app system for several reasons.
http://www.armageddon.org/general/special.php
No, it's not a perfect system, but it works well enough.
Quote
If you do not have karma and feel like you've been overlooked, request your account notes. It works.
Sometimes, yes.
Quote
Allow players to ask for sponsored roles in clans and such, so long as they have the karma. Allow players to request extra skills or perhaps other things to round out a unique concept they have in mind, so long as they have proven themselves capable in the past.
This would be special apping, yes. This is generally what determines what people get special applications approved.
Quote
I'm tired of buttons that launch nuclear weapons being put beneath the twitching digits of tards.
You can submit player complaints through the request queue, and we'll take a look at things. To be fair, there's no way for you or other players to tell whether or not someone got a special application approved and plays a role poorly, or has the karma for a role and plays a role poorly. That determination is something that the staff can make, and we'd really appreciate knowing if someone isn't roleplaying something properly.
Quote
Cutting out these sort of special applications will free up immortal time and let staffers focus on what they -should- be spending their time on: clans, their players, and Armageddon Reborn.
One staffer at a time works on special apps. They're the bottom of the barrel of priority. I think that staff members are able to manage their volunteer time alright themselves.
If the complaint here is "there are people abusing their power" or "people are not roleplaying their high-karma/special app roles well," then that can be dealt with with a player complaint, which staff members do take seriously and will deal with it after investigation.
Quote from: Nyr on December 19, 2008, 08:37:26 AM
You can submit player complaints through the request queue, and we'll take a look at things. To be fair, there's no way for you or other players to tell whether or not someone got a special application approved and plays a role poorly, or has the karma for a role and plays a role poorly. That determination is something that the staff can make, and we'd really appreciate knowing if someone isn't roleplaying something properly.
...
If the complaint here is "there are people abusing their power" or "people are not roleplaying their high-karma/special app roles well," then that can be dealt with with a player complaint, which staff members do take seriously and will deal with it after investigation.
It was my understanding that player complaints were for the purpose of reporting rule violations, explicit or implicit, and not for a criticism of role play. If this isn't the case I believe it should be since what constitutes good or poor role play is highly subjective. By way of example, I often see people here on the boards criticizing Group X for certain things which, in my opinion, aren't poor role play at all but more a case of "well, that's not how
I'd do that..." I agree that "people abusing their power" should be reported but do you really want to be reading a lot of "I don't think muls should be played like player X does." ?
Quote from: Medena on December 19, 2008, 10:17:33 AM
Quote from: Nyr on December 19, 2008, 08:37:26 AM
You can submit player complaints through the request queue, and we'll take a look at things. To be fair, there's no way for you or other players to tell whether or not someone got a special application approved and plays a role poorly, or has the karma for a role and plays a role poorly. That determination is something that the staff can make, and we'd really appreciate knowing if someone isn't roleplaying something properly.
...
If the complaint here is "there are people abusing their power" or "people are not roleplaying their high-karma/special app roles well," then that can be dealt with with a player complaint, which staff members do take seriously and will deal with it after investigation.
It was my understanding that player complaints were for the purpose of reporting rule violations, explicit or implicit, and not for a criticism of role play. If this isn't the case I believe it should be since what constitutes good or poor role play is highly subjective. By way of example, I often see people here on the boards criticizing Group X for certain things which, in my opinion, aren't poor role play at all but more a case of "well, that's not how I'd do that..." I agree that "people abusing their power" should be reported but do you really want to be reading a lot of "I don't think muls should be played like player X does." ?
Player complaints are
NOT forwarded to the players like kudos are. (We promise.)
They are sent to staff, and staff looks at it and sees if it's a valid complaint/deals with it from there.
You're right, though. Sometimes it is simply a difference of opinion. That's where staff investigation and interpretation of a complaint comes into play.
I think special applications should be restricted to guilds/races 1 karma level above what you currently have. I've seen some unspeakably poor players sitting behind the wheels of half-giants, krathis, elkrosians and even higher. This is very bad for the game, and to ask to play a role several karma levels above yours seems really greedy and conceited to me.
Quote from: Good Gortok on December 19, 2008, 10:49:52 AM
I think special applications should be restricted to guilds/races 1 karma level above what you currently have.
I'd rather see a 2-karma player playing the Krathi he wants to play than the half-giant he thinks he has to play before he can get the Krathi option.
Quote from: Good Gortok on December 19, 2008, 10:49:52 AM
I think special applications should be restricted to guilds/races 1 karma level above what you currently have. I've seen some unspeakably poor players sitting behind the wheels of half-giants, krathis, elkrosians and even higher. This is very bad for the game, and to ask to play a role several karma levels above yours seems really greedy and conceited to me.
As Nyr pointed out, you really have no way of knowing if people you see role-playing badly are special apps or not. You can file a player complaint and we'll look to see if it was bad RP - because, again, what made seem like bad RP to you may be perfectly IC as a result of events you and your character don't know about.
Karma guilds are the suck anyway. For little people with little dreams. BANG! POW! ZAP! SEE MY FIREBALL??!!??!?!
Compensating, folks?
-WP has nothing meaningful to contribute.
The only time I could see myself special apping is for a mundane with extra skills in accordance with their strange background. If I have the karma, I'll play something, but I've got so many character ideas bouncing around in my head that I don't think I'll be feeling the need to get outside of the box any time soon.
Quote from: Medena on December 19, 2008, 10:17:33 AM
Quote from: Nyr on December 19, 2008, 08:37:26 AM
You can submit player complaints through the request queue, and we'll take a look at things. To be fair, there's no way for you or other players to tell whether or not someone got a special application approved and plays a role poorly, or has the karma for a role and plays a role poorly. That determination is something that the staff can make, and we'd really appreciate knowing if someone isn't roleplaying something properly.
...
If the complaint here is "there are people abusing their power" or "people are not roleplaying their high-karma/special app roles well," then that can be dealt with with a player complaint, which staff members do take seriously and will deal with it after investigation.
It was my understanding that player complaints were for the purpose of reporting rule violations, explicit or implicit, and not for a criticism of role play.
The mul who rp's getting something pregnant.
The half-giant who does calculus in the sand with a stick.
The city-bound desert-elf.
These kinds of things aren't strictly disallowed by rules, but there had damn well better be some good IC reasons behind them.
Sending a player complaint doesn't mean punishment for the player, it just warrants that the Staff keep an eye on this player for a little bit to make sure everything's hunky-dory.
I'm of the opinion that if staff thinks the special app system is fine, I think the special app system is fine. From what meager experience I've had with special apps, I don't think the system is broken too badly ... and as has been stated, I feel like unless a person is doing a bit of bad form themselves (by mixing IC and OOC info) they probably don't know if the mage/mul/half-giant in front of them is special app'ed or just a karma player ... and they probably don't know if the person has an IC reason to be doing what they're doing or not.
Quote from: Good Gortok on December 19, 2008, 10:49:52 AM
I think special applications should be restricted to guilds/races 1 karma level above what you currently have. I've seen some unspeakably poor players sitting behind the wheels of half-giants, krathis, elkrosians and even higher. This is very bad for the game, and to ask to play a role several karma levels above yours seems really greedy and conceited to me.
To me, a player who assumes that they have the ability to judge another player's caliber despite the fact that their perception and knowledge is quite limited; and then make sweeping judgements based off that, which would apply to all players including the ones they've never RP'ed with before ... seems just a touch more conceited.
QuoteTo me, a perosn who assumes that they have the ability to judge another player's caliber from the limited perspective of being a player themselves, and then make sweeping judgements that apply to all players including the ones they've never RP'ed with before ... seems really greedy and conceited.
It has nothing to do with judging anyone's caliber, that's an illogical assumption considering that I did not mention any specific player or groups of players, but rather the problem of intending to play a character whose race or guild requires so much more karma than what you have earned that there are other options - which cost less - that you haven't even earned the privilege to play. For the context of the discussion, namely karma being awarded when one allegedly proves their worth by playing a special-apped character of that type, I don't see the validity in allowing, say, a 2-karma player the right to play a half-giant after not completely botching an attempt at playing a Krathi. It's not like you have to actually perform as is expected of someone with the level of karma that the guild requires, you just have to not actually have the option taken away as a consequence of your performance, and so I disagree with earning karma that way unless it's earned through playing the option that you are going to become eligible for with that additional point of karma.
In general, I strongly disagree with the common notion that special apps are a means to gain karma. It encourages frequent playing of special-apped characters and rewards those who do so often, the players who essentially are playing options above what they have earned. As it stands, if someone wants to earn as much karma as possible, the most effective way of doing so is to repeatedly play characters that no staff member has of their own accord considered them eligible for but rather agreed to letting them try. You can apply once a month, so unless the staff actually tells you not to, which I have never heard of, you could easily play back-to-back special-app characters and simply maintain an effectively higher karma level than you have earned. Meanwhile, someone playing non-karma options (or options they have the karma for) brilliantly, because they are capable of doing so and supposedly do it out of a desire to play what they do best rather than what they haven't been judged capable of, is almost guaranteed to not be rewarded as readily.
Quote from: Good Gortok on December 20, 2008, 12:19:26 AM
It has nothing to do with judging anyone's caliber, that's an illogical assumption considering that I did not mention any specific player or groups of players, but rather the problem of intending to play a character whose race or guild requires so much more karma than what you have earned that there are other options - which cost less - that you haven't even earned the privilege to play.
Sorry for any misunderstanding, it's just that to me ... when you said "I've seen some unspeakably poor players sitting behind the wheels of half-giants, krathis, elkrosians and even higher. " It sounded like you were in fact, mentioning a specific group of players ... namely, the unspeakably poor ones who special app'ed half-giants, krathis, elkrosians, and even higher.
And since you were calling them unspeakably poor in terms of their ability to play their characters, again, it just sounded like you were judging their caliber as a player, to me anyway.
So from where I was standing ... that sounded very concieted since as I said, unless you were a staff member, or mixing up OOC and IC information, you shouldn't have those players' full character backgrounds and player account information, hence you shouldn't have the full picture required to state something as uncompromising as "This is very bad for the game."
If that wasn't what you were getting at, and I was just reading it wrong, my apologises, but it didn't seem so illogical the way I read it.
Quote from: Good Gortok on December 20, 2008, 12:19:26 AM
For the context of the discussion, namely karma being awarded when one allegedly proves their worth by playing a special-apped character of that type, I don't see the validity in allowing, say, a 2-karma player the right to play a half-giant after not completely botching an attempt at playing a Krathi. It's not like you have to actually perform as is expected of someone with the level of karma that the guild requires, you just have to not actually have the option taken away as a consequence of your performance, and so I disagree with earning karma that way unless it's earned through playing the option that you are going to become eligible for with that additional point of karma.
While I can see where you're coming from I think ... it seems to me like the normal way to get karma functions exactly the same. I mean to say, if staff decides to just up and give someone a point of karma for good RP (as they often do) that person will have never actually played the new options that point unlocks for them as yet.
Likewise ... if someone special app's a role above their karma level, and staff decide to give them a point of karma for good RP with that special app PC and it unlocks some options they've never played before ... well, I don't see the functional difference.
I think the only reason people suggest that special app'ing a character will help get karma is because it will make sure that the staff take a look at the player's account, both prior to reviewing the app, and afterwards if the app is approved because they're keeping an eye out since said player is sort of on a "trail run".
Small Edit: I just wanted to add that I believe we most certainly do have to play a special app'ed role as though we actually had the karma for it in terms of our performance. Staff has said already that account notes are one of the big determining factors in deciding if a special app gets approved, so I would imagine that if the player in question had not already built up their name a bit by demostraiting their ability to perform, they would not be getting approved in the first place.
Quote from: Good Gortok on December 20, 2008, 12:19:26 AM
In general, I strongly disagree with the common notion that special apps are a means to gain karma. It encourages frequent playing of special-apped characters and rewards those who do so often, the players who essentially are playing options above what they have earned. As it stands, if someone wants to earn as much karma as possible, the most effective way of doing so is to repeatedly play characters that no staff member has of their own accord considered them eligible for but rather agreed to letting them try. You can apply once a month, so unless the staff actually tells you not to, which I have never heard of, you could easily play back-to-back special-app characters and simply maintain an effectively higher karma level than you have earned. Meanwhile, someone playing non-karma options brilliantly, because they are capable of doing so and supposedly do it out of a desire to play what they do best rather than what they haven't been judged capable of, is almost guaranteed to not be rewarded as readily.
I have to say, I would agree with this ... if the staff members were unthinking machines. But since they aren't, I have full faith in their ability to recognize when someone is playing nothing but back to back special app characters. I also have full faith in their ability to judge for themselves if that sort of behavior is a-ok, or in need of correction.
The one thing I can agree with you on is the mention that someone could be playing a non-karma role brilliantly but slipping through the cracks. But, I think it's very unlikely that they are "almost guaranteed" not to be rewarded as readily provided they are doing what they need to be doing as a player.
What I mean is, the staff are only people, the players are only people, so we have to meet one another half-way. If a player is sending in character updates, keeping staff informed of what they're doing, and RP'ing their heart out, I whole heartedly doubt that the staff will fail to reward the player accordingly.
Special apps are just one way to help staff see that a player is deserving of a bit more trust in the game, there are other options for players who happen to not want/need a special app to get their just rewards as well, and I don't think either method is going to garner karma any faster than the other.
If you don't mind me asking, Lakota, what got you on the anti-special-app kick?
Edited to add:
The reason I asked is because when you start a post out like this:
Quote from: Lakota on December 19, 2008, 12:20:59 AM
Get rid of this shit. We don't need it. Why do we have players asking to play roles they lack the karma for? That defeats the purpose of the karma system. If you don't have the karma necessary to play a nilazi, then too bad.
...it makes you look really inconsiderate and hateful (this coming from someone that has backed you up on several heated threads before).
Special apps have been a part of the game for most of its life, AFAIK.
The karma system we have is great, although flawed at times, but I cant see any way that it could be made better.
In my opinion, special apps are important to the game.
The ability to make "custom" PCs adds flavor that would not be available through simple race/guild/sub selection.
As for playing above your karma level, why not? Karma keeps "bad"/untested players from reeking havoc in a RPI world.
However, special apps are sent through a more rigorous set of standards than even our regular apps, and can take months to get approved.
And as it has been mentioned in this thread by players and other threads by staff, special app PCs are kept a very close eye on staff side.
It seems to me that someone who is approved a PC through a special app, would have to be much more careful with their PC's RP and actions than someone who already
had the karma to play the same character type, and will be less likely to do things that would cause them to risk loosing their PC and/or current karma or karma they might aquire through the role.
Quote from: musashi on December 20, 2008, 12:55:52 AM
So from where I was standing ... that sounded very concieted since as I said, unless you were a staff member, or mixing up OOC and IC information, you shouldn't have those players' full character backgrounds and player account information, hence you shouldn't have the full picture required to state something as uncompromising as "This is very bad for the game."
I don't find it particularly conceited. I've seen roleplay on all ends on the karma spectrum that I have no problem whatsoever with calling unspeakably poor or bad for the game.
That high-karma race guy that I saw power-emoting beating the everloving shit out of NPCs in a populated, crimflagged area without actually using 'hit' or wishing up, just "em breaks %dude face"? Yeah, that is poor.
The high karma guild guys who tried to power emote their way through a scene they didn't have complete control over that SHOULD have required asking consent, which they neglected to do? Quite poor.
These are all things that should be (and were) taken up with the game's staff, sure. But I don't see why we, as players, can't look at situations where the RP or the OOC ethics IS unspeakably poor practice, especially for a player that supposedly has a good deal of karma.
It becomes conceited when you start accusing a large number of people of being unspeakably poor. Or a majority of karma-race/karma-guild PCs. Or when you start deeming any RP you personally disagree with or any situation you find unsavoury as unspeakably poor. I don't, however, find it conceited in the slightest to point out when people are obviously breaking the rules.
Quote from: Fathi on December 20, 2008, 01:36:01 AM
Quote from: musashi on December 20, 2008, 12:55:52 AM
So from where I was standing ... that sounded very concieted since as I said, unless you were a staff member, or mixing up OOC and IC information, you shouldn't have those players' full character backgrounds and player account information, hence you shouldn't have the full picture required to state something as uncompromising as "This is very bad for the game."
I don't find it particularly conceited. I've seen roleplay on all ends on the karma spectrum that I have no problem whatsoever with calling unspeakably poor or bad for the game.
That high-karma race guy that I saw power-emoting beating the everloving shit out of NPCs in a populated, crimflagged area without actually using 'hit' or wishing up, just "em breaks %dude face"? Yeah, that is poor.
The high karma guild guys who tried to power emote their way through a scene they didn't have complete control over that SHOULD have required asking consent, which they neglected to do? Quite poor.
These are all things that should be (and were) taken up with the game's staff, sure. But I don't see why we, as players, can't look at situations where the RP or the OOC ethics IS unspeakably poor practice, especially for a player that supposedly has a good deal of karma.
It becomes conceited when you start accusing a large number of people of being unspeakably poor. Or a majority of karma-race/karma-guild PCs. Or when you start deeming any RP you personally disagree with or any situation you find unsavoury as unspeakably poor. I don't, however, find it conceited in the slightest to point out when people are obviously breaking the rules.
Hence the reason I preface all of my comments with some variation of: I think/I feel/In my opinion ... because it's just that, my opinion, I'm not trying to say it's the definitive word, just the thought that's bouncing around in my brain at the moment.
But that aside, I agree with you Fathi, it just seems to me that assuming that every PC one sees playing a karma role poorly is a special app'ed character being abused, would constitude accusing a large number of people of being unspeakably poor; people who special app.
But we can likely take this to PM if you want ... since I think talking about what we consider concieted is perhaps a bit of a derail.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 20, 2008, 01:04:39 AM
If you don't mind me asking, Lakota, what got you on the anti-special-app kick?
Guy, as long as you've known me (admittedly, not that long) you've undoubtedly seen that I express myself in ways not necessarily as eloquent as a member of this community should. I say what is on my mind, and don't attempt to sugar coat shit.
I got on this "kick" because I have been playing this game around a decade now, and through my time spent here I have spoken to hundreds of players on various occassions. Sometimes, the topic of special apping came up. Now, having played with these individuals, I found myself simultaneously humored and horrified that not only did they app the high-karma role, but were -accepted-, going on to play the race rather poorly.
I'm not saying I want the ability to special app sponsored characters or characters with extra/unique abilities taken away. Rather, I just want there to be a limit on what you -can- special app. Namely, high-karma roles that are above your current accumulated karma. If I had it my way, no one would be allowed to app a level over their current. Hell, if I had it my way retired staff members wouldn't be allowed to keep their accounts and the max karma that comes with it, but that's just me.
Just for the record, we do consider your current karma level when reviewing a special application. We don't, for example, generally give 8-karma roles to 0-karma players. We might give an 8-karma role to a 5-karma player, though.
Quote from: Vanth on December 20, 2008, 01:23:29 PM
Just for the record, we do consider your current karma level when reviewing a special application. We don't, for example, generally give 8-karma roles to 0-karma players. We might give an 8-karma role to a 5-karma player, though.
Yeah it seems like +1 karma than you have is very easy to get approved, +2 not so much harder, +3 pretty hard, +4 or more, I think you would be better off trying to climb the shield wall on a one day burglar.
JaRoD
Quote from: Lakota on December 20, 2008, 06:12:55 AM
Hell, if I had it my way retired staff members wouldn't be allowed to keep their accounts and the max karma that comes with it, but that's just me.
I think that's a bit overboard.
Quote from: musashi on December 20, 2008, 09:00:26 PM
Quote from: Lakota on December 20, 2008, 06:12:55 AM
Hell, if I had it my way retired staff members wouldn't be allowed to keep their accounts and the max karma that comes with it, but that's just me.
I think that's a bit overboard.
I think not. Without naming names, there is one ex-staffer in particular who has a penchant for rolling sorcerors. If I remember correctly, they played two back to back. With the same little coterie of power rangers, no less.
In my opinion, having max karma as a staff member isn't necessarily so much a measure trust as it is a
privelege. Once you are no longer on staff, you are once more a normal player. You should be held accountable for your actions and subject to review. In other words, you should have to earn your stripes like everyone else. And no, I don't think being on staff for a few years automatically allows said staff member to retain max karma.
I would think that if you're trusted enough by the staff to be staff, then you should be trusted with 8 karma.
My way of thinking about it is something like ... Too bad if there have been staff members in the past who retired and then turned a little bad-apple-ish but, they are just people ... people who give up a lot of their time to try and make the game enjoyable for everyone else, so in exchange for that unpaid labor, I think 8 karma is probably the least the can receive ... because at the end of the day, it's a game, not the codes to the missile silos of the midwest or anything.
Quote from: musashi on December 20, 2008, 11:58:18 PM
I would think that if you're trusted enough by the staff to be staff, then you should be trusted with 8 karma.
That's my way of looking at it. I would think that, by being selected to be on staff, one has clearly displayed that they deserve a level of trust far
above maximum karma, so if they step down, why shouldn't they still be trusted?
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on December 21, 2008, 12:09:51 AM
I would think that, by being selected to be on staff, one has clearly displayed that they deserve a level of trust far above maximum karma, so if they step down, why shouldn't they still be trusted?
Because they're not staff anymore? Eventually there will be one hundred legends in ArmageddonMUD, half of which may decide to still play. For balance's sake, mayhaps.
Quote from: Lakota on December 21, 2008, 12:16:38 AM
Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on December 21, 2008, 12:09:51 AM
I would think that, by being selected to be on staff, one has clearly displayed that they deserve a level of trust far above maximum karma, so if they step down, why shouldn't they still be trusted?
Because they're not staff anymore? Eventually there will be one hundred legends in ArmageddonMUD, half of which may decide to still play. For balance's sake, mayhaps.
They've already earned that trust, is what I'm saying. By being selected to be on staff, the other staff have shown that this person has demonstrated that they're worthy of some of the highest levels of trust offered in this game. It isn't given lightly. Even when they opt not to be on staff anymore, I would argue that they haven't un-earned that trust, and so they should be allowed to keep it.
And for the sake of balance, I contend that they shouldn't. I'm done.
Quote from: Lakota on December 21, 2008, 12:34:48 AM
And for the sake of balance, I contend that they shouldn't. I'm done.
And for the sake of common courtesy and respect for all they did for the game, all the different stories they added. I say they should be able to play any damned thing they want.
The only thing I think that should be taken into account is not counting the legends when looking at things like, "Should I approve this mindbender application, there is already Halaster and Enerah (Sorry if I mispelled) playing them." That way there is really no negative to having legends play.
Right now the only bad thing I see is IF the legends are taking up all the good shit. You need to spread that around!
JaRoD
I've been with this MUD for probably about 5 to 6 years now. I've been a Byn sergeant, a maxxed out and pissed off Krathi, a Nilazi, and even a templar. I've never had anything I'd even consider near negative feedback. Some constructive, but that's about it. I've got a grand total of two karma.
I really don't believe that karma level is anywhere near pertinent to qualifying how good a player is. It's easy to get overlooked because you play offpeak, or you favor playing independents, or you've got a rotating schedule that you'd need to hire a private detective to follow.
I've seen some things done in game with higher-karma characters that I thought were questionable and didn't agree with, but whatever, it's not my call and it's not my problem. I don't run this show, the staff does, so let them handle it however they want. Don't get bitter and post on the GDB about it. I've had players IM me telling me they didn't think something a past char or whatever did was really what someone would do, and so on and so forth. And I've pretty much told them to shut the fuck up, because it was my own call to make and I've got my reasons for every call. Think about that next time you go talking about how terrible that Nilazi in the Gaj is on the GDB.
You gotta ask for it. They have too much shit they are doing to be remembering who did awesome at being a Byn Sergeant.
Just write up a nice request in the request tool and ask for the Karma. If you never ask, you never know what they will say.
JaRoD
Quote from: Cerelum on December 21, 2008, 02:29:34 AM
You gotta ask for it. They have too much shit they are doing to be remembering who did awesome at being a Byn Sergeant.
Just write up a nice request in the request tool and ask for the Karma. If you never ask, you never know what they will say.
JaRoD
I'm not concerned about it and don't mind it as much as I mind people using karma as an absolute value of a player's abilities and integrity.
I went through the special apps for 2008-to-date and found some interesting statistics.
Of the accounts that submitted special apps this year (there were 112 such accounts):
87.5% of them submitted 1-3 special apps
which accounted for 68.5% of all special apps
12.5% of them submitted 4+ special apps
which accounted for 31.5% of all special apps
So you people who submit a new special app as soon as the last one dies/is rejected...you are accounting for 1/3 of the work the special app imm has to handle. You also account for most of the complaints about the length of time it takes for these apps to be reviewed. :P
Quote from: Vanth on December 25, 2008, 06:49:05 PM
I went through the special apps for 2008-to-date and found some interesting statistics.
Of the accounts that submitted special apps this year (there were 112 such accounts):
87.5% of them submitted 1-3 special apps
which accounted for 68.5% of all special apps
12.5% of them submitted 4+ special apps
which accounted for 31.5% of all special apps
So you people who submit a new special app as soon as the last one dies/is rejected...you are accounting for 1/3 of the work the special app imm has to handle. You also account for most of the complaints about the length of time it takes for these apps to be reviewed. :P
That's an extremely interesting statistic. That basically 1/10th of the people account for 1/3rd of the work.
Actually, it's 1/20 of active player base for 1/3 of the work, keeping in mind that roughly half of the base didn't apply at all.
Are you counting in those special apps, sponsored roles that require special apps, that are promoted by the staff?
Such as templar, noble, GMH family member. Is there a way to "discount" those, if they are included in your stats, so we can see the stats on just random unsponsored roles?
Those roles are not placed in the special app/request queue. They are handled through e-mail and then the normal application process.
The person handling special applications does not have to deal with sponsored roles that are requested on the GDB on the Staff Announcements board.
Due to the nature of sponsored roles, I would say that they are not present in the above statistics; all of the above statistics are just for "random unsponsored roles."
Wow. Given that those stats do NOT include nobles, templars and the like, that's astounding.
To be honest, I am not at all impressed with those numbers and I think better about playerbase now.
98 people special apping 130-140 times per year does not look unreasonable. We know that part of their apps is rejected, so it basicly means only one pokemon per apping player per year.
Very special 14 players, for whom special application is no longer special, are odd and sad creatures indeed, but I am not worried about special applications anymore.
Quote from: Doppelganger on December 26, 2008, 04:09:59 AM
Actually, it's 1/20 of active player base for 1/3 of the work, keeping in mind that roughly half of the base didn't apply at all.
This is a very typical number for any kind of customer support system.
I don't really find it that surprising. I think those 12.5% who did apply for a few have a lot of interesting ideas. I don't think I've ever seen a 'special' character played wrong. Maybe a 'gicker or half-giant who emotes/spells badly, but most of the time, I love watching them and being around them.
Personally, I'm fond of special apps. Nobody really uses them to wreak havoc, most of the time they add to the game :)
Quote from: musashi on December 20, 2008, 09:00:26 PM
Quote from: Lakota on December 20, 2008, 06:12:55 AM
Hell, if I had it my way retired staff members wouldn't be allowed to keep their accounts and the max karma that comes with it, but that's just me.
I think that's a bit overboard.
I think that's really overboard.
If you think someone's play is twinkish or in poor OOC taste, send up a player complain. As Nyr said, while the system is not perfect, if there was no means of special app, it would force people to play high-profile characters in hopes to gain the Staff's attention. No longer would you see beggars, whores, and common thieves. Instead, you would see a large percentage of the populace striving to improve their standing with the staff, in hopes that when they ask for their account notes, or request a karma review, they will have made a difference! They will have won the game.
Just my projection, of course.
I'm very fond of special apps. I don't ask for them often, and I think the month downtime between requests is good enough to keep people focused on their current role. There are people who just app and app and app and app until one gets through. I'm sure the Staff are aware of these people, by those statistics Vanth showed in the last month. Many players of Armageddon don't even consider karma, or special apps, when making a character, and some have even been playing for 10+ years. I don't really care about Karma, and I special app once in a while when I have a -really- whacky idea. I've played a handful of magickers / bizzare roles, and always seem to come back to the warrior, or the assassin.
I have a few ideas for special apps, but I'm sifting through them carefully because I know I only have a few. Frankly, all of them are great ideas which would add a lot to the game for everyone. I'd probably do better at them, then playing a d-elf, just for the sake of having a karma point to do it. I like the special app system. I think a lot of people who have a lot of interesting ideas also have the experience to pull them off well.. too bad some of those players aren't more active.
Anyway, I find that the few 'nuclear weapons' out there die early and die quick - within 2 or so days because they felt invincible and tried to take on a salt worm or a high-ranking warrior. The best players seem to live quite long.
Eh... my last specapp died in a couple of hours of playtime.
I guess I'll give it six months before I try again.
My special app was rejected because I gave up my magicker karma :(
Quote from: mansa on January 15, 2009, 04:17:40 PM
My special app was rejected because I gave up my magicker karma :(
Karma indeed, if it was for a 'gicker. ;) :-*
Quote from: mansa on January 15, 2009, 04:17:40 PM
My special app was rejected because I gave up my magicker karma :(
*twitch*
I can't help but get a chuckle out of the people that gave up their points in the great Karma-Off demonstration, but continued to special app roles and/or quietly requested that their karma be returned to them, at a later date.
/me is footloose and karma free.
lawl alawl lwalw.
No, it wasn't for a magicker class. No, I didn't ask for my magicker karma back. No, I still believe the karma system is broken and Yes, if you've read the "karma off" thread, you'll notice that I was suggesting for a different type of system to handle characters - in fact one that was based around special applications. No, it was my first and only special app of 2007-2008.
Quote from: a strange shadow on January 15, 2009, 05:22:25 PM
I can't help but get a chuckle out of the people that gave up their points in the great Karma-Off demonstration, but continued to special app roles and/or quietly requested that their karma be returned to them, at a later date.
/me is footloose and karma free.
Why give up the karma when you can just stop playing the roles? Do you need to give it up, cause you don't have the self control to stop rolling up Sorcerers or something? ;D Besides, I -do- want to see fewer magickers... but I'd miss seeing muls, d-elves and fearing mindworms. So don't give up your karma, veterans!
You should read the thread they're referring to jcjules, it was actually pretty interesting. Like a big karma bonfire.
Actually jcjules, magicker karma, as opposed to race karma, was given up. So people with say, 7 karma, would give up the 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th tiers of karma, but not the d.elf, half giant, and mul karma tiers. Same for if they have the halfling option.
Quote from: Lakota on January 15, 2009, 05:35:29 PM
Actually jcjules, magicker karma, as opposed to race karma, was given up. So people with say, 7 karma, would give up the 2nd, 4th, 5th, and 6th tiers of karma, but not the d.elf, half giant, and mul karma tiers. Same for if they have the halfling option.
Ohhhh.... I wasn't around back then, so thanks for telling me. I withdraw my previous opposition to the idea.
The halfling option? Like a add on option for a car?
Giving up the karma was more of a 'sit in' kind of commentary. People threw in their karma in hopes that it would bring people's attention to mundane classes again. Hell, I stored a Magicker I had just rolled up in order to play an amazing bard in Tuluk.
Things change, however, and I decided perhaps half a year later to try a pair of Krathi's. I found out I wasn't missing much, and returned to mundanes, all the way.
Judging people for changing their minds is kind of silly, and a long road down hypocritical lane.
Quote from: musashi on January 15, 2009, 05:37:18 PM
The halfling option? Like a add on option for a car?
No. More like a Dodge fucking Viper tricked out with missiles and defense systems.
If you haven't ever played one, I heartily encourage you to special app one.
The problem with giving up my Karma was that it seems I gave up my right to earn Karma at the same time. Damn it.
The karma-off was completely voluntary and if you want your karma back, you can request it back at any time. if you feel you have been overlooked for gaining more karma for this, please submit a karma review request and indicate this in the request.
For anyone curious, here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28005.0.html) is the thread in question with the great karma-off and everything. It started sometime back in 2007 after the non-mundane portion of the playerbase had been growing steadily following the announcement of the Reborn project. Unnatural entities of various kinds were starting to rival, or in some areas even exceed, the numbers of mundane PCs in the game, and after months of countless irate threads about it, the playerbase took the apparently necessary step to get a reaction from the staff.
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 16, 2009, 04:01:32 PM
For anyone curious, here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28005.0.html) is the thread in question with the great karma-off and everything. It started sometime back in 2007 after the non-mundane portion of the playerbase had been growing steadily following the announcement of the Reborn project. Unnatural entities of various kinds were starting to rival, or in some areas even exceed, the numbers of mundane PCs in the game, and after months of countless irate threads about it, the playerbase took the apparently necessary step to get a reaction from the staff.
Wow ...
Very informative. Also, looks like that whole thread in the arm.2 forum is redundant. :D
Quote from: Thunkkin on January 16, 2009, 07:09:29 PM
Very informative. Also, looks like that whole thread in the arm.2 forum is redundant. :D
Now you begin to understand how most of us who were here a year ago feel.
Quote from: Tisiphone on January 16, 2009, 07:10:19 PM
Quote from: Thunkkin on January 16, 2009, 07:09:29 PM
Very informative. Also, looks like that whole thread in the arm.2 forum is redundant. :D
Now you begin to understand how most of us who were here a year ago feel.
Or three.
Or eight.
Or ten.
Also, I'd like to admit that some time around 1995 or so, in the pre-karma days, as a young lad when I played about 20 different muds and tried out ARM a few times (and would always give up, since I would just run out the gates and attack gith on every character) ... I made an old vivaduan based on the biblical Noah and stood outside the Trader's Inn shouting prophesies about floods. I don't think I even realized I had spells, much less figured out how to cast one. After a few days, I got bored and ran out of the gates and fought gith.
There, I've got my magick twinking days off my chest now.
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 16, 2009, 04:01:32 PM
For anyone curious, here (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,28005.0.html) is the thread in question with the great karma-off and everything. It started sometime back in 2007 after the non-mundane portion of the playerbase had been growing steadily following the announcement of the Reborn project. Unnatural entities of various kinds were starting to rival, or in some areas even exceed, the numbers of mundane PCs in the game, and after months of countless irate threads about it, the playerbase took the apparently necessary step to get a reaction from the staff.
Actually - there was no action from staff other than we removed karma from those who asked. If you noticed any changes within the game itself it was likely a result of people not apping magickers, rather than anything staff did.
Adhira:
You mean, the same percentage of vampire mindbending sorcerer nilazi apps were approved?
I seem to recall that some players started having their outrageous character concepts rejected moreso after the karma komplaint, than before.
...
But what do I know, I usually have people complaining at me compared to people telling me their secrets. Its like a ratio of 5000:1
We did not change our special application criteria, what you heard was probably gossip. ::)
Please discuss the change in policy (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34148.0.html) here.
Oops. I locked the topic. It's unlocked now.
My only request is that cancelled special applications (by the player) be not counted as part of the three total and exempt from the 30 day period.
This is the best change the game has seen in a long time, imo. Going to see more quality over quantity.
Hooray.
Quote from: Prince Prig on January 28, 2009, 01:33:21 PM
My only request is that cancelled special applications (by the player) be not counted as part of the three total and exempt from the 30 day period.
This is reasonable (and
will be has been updated to reflect that, per Morgenes).
I think the only thing this'll change is the time apps take to get looked at.
Sorry, I think player-canceled SAs should count towards the max. I'm thinking this whole new rule is really about players being more aware and considerate when it comes to special applications -- and that includes control over impulses. If a player is finding they have to request cancelation after cancelation that, to me, implies they're submitting more impulses than wanted characters.
I once special-apped a character and was informed that it didn't require a special app--will this count towards my total?
Quote from: jcljules on January 28, 2009, 01:43:37 PM
I once special-apped a character and was informed that it didn't require a special app--will this count towards my total?
I would suggest you request that the special app be marked cancelled in that case. Hopefully staff will think about it and do that for you.
This is a great change.
I agree with not having player-canceled apps apply toward the limit; because a player-canceled app doesn't require anything from the staff in terms of time, and thus it doesn't impact staff or the game.
How does this affect people who might have put in 3+ special apps already since February 2008? Will they have to wait to submit again, or does the year period just start fresh, now, for everyone?
Starting now. Those of you who submitted a dozen special applications last week won't be affected by this until you've submitted three more starting today.
Quote from: Gimfalisette on January 28, 2009, 01:47:29 PM
How does this affect people who might have put in 3+ special apps already since February 2008? Will they have to wait to submit again, or does the year period just start fresh, now, for everyone?
Quote from: Vanth on January 28, 2009, 01:13:04 PM
Effective immediately, special apps will be limited to 3 per account per year. There is still a 30-day waiting period between special apps. Applications will count toward this limit regardless of whether they are approved or denied.
Emphasis mine.
Per calendar year or rolling year? :D
I've never been one of those people who liked special apps. Who wants to wait thirty plus days to play a character, when there are concepts I can play within 24 hours?
But then I got to wondering: Does the limit include those applications toward positions announced as open by staff? Say staff wants another templar and you try an application for something like that, does it count towards the three special ap limit?
That's maybe going to dry up the well towards some of those roles, if so. That's my only concern.
Quote from: deviant storm on January 28, 2009, 01:54:03 PM
I've never been one of those people who liked special apps. Who wants to wait thirty plus days to play a character, when there are concepts I can play within 24 hours?
But then I got to wondering: Does the limit include those applications toward positions announced as open by staff? Say staff wants another templar and you try an application for something like that, does it count towards the three special ap limit?
That's maybe going to dry up the well towards some of those roles, if so. That's my only concern.
Sponsored roles != special apped roles.
If you are responding to a call for a sponsored role, this is completely separate from a special application, and will not count towards your limit.
Quote from: Nyr on January 28, 2009, 01:56:03 PM
Quote from: deviant storm on January 28, 2009, 01:54:03 PM
I've never been one of those people who liked special apps. Who wants to wait thirty plus days to play a character, when there are concepts I can play within 24 hours?
But then I got to wondering: Does the limit include those applications toward positions announced as open by staff? Say staff wants another templar and you try an application for something like that, does it count towards the three special ap limit?
That's maybe going to dry up the well towards some of those roles, if so. That's my only concern.
Sponsored roles != special apped roles.
If you are responding to a call for a sponsored role, this is completely separate from a special application, and will not count towards your limit.
Okay. Then I'm good with the whole thing. :)
I think this is a great idea.
I'm pretty cool with it as well. As was said, this makes absolutely no difference to 90 percent of the players.
Should limit it to 1.
Which of these factors holds more sway in whether or not a special application is approved?
> The quality and originality of the application. How many similar characters are already in the game. How little or much the game might benefit from such a character. The potential for meaningful interaction and involvement with other players.
> The player's dedication, responsibility and roleplay capability. Their history and involvement with the community. The observations that staff make during the review. The player's previous characters.
Also, what happens if the player wants to make some adjustments to the application after it has been approved? Say they applied for a character of some guild or race but want to change the description or the starting location before creating the character. Is this possible? Who should the player consult?
My word is of course, only my opinion, but from my limited experience I think that a player's dedication, responsibility, and history with the game weigh more heavily than the originality of the application; though both are likely important and factor in.
I say that because in the last (and really only) special app I submitted, staff told me that while they weren't positive that my concept /needed/ what I was asking for ... my account notes and history with the game thus far were quite positive and based on that merit, they were willing to let me have a go with it.
As for making adjustments, if it's something minor like a little tweak in the description I think you're ok, since you're still going to have to go through character generation when the PC is actually created anyway. But typically, staff discourage people from asking for changes once the special app is submitted.
If you did want to change something beyond a simple description tweak, I think you would do better to cancel the current app, and put in an entirely new one with the changes you want, then tough it out and wait the extra wait time for having started over.
Quote from: Clearsighted on January 28, 2009, 09:10:12 PM
Should limit it to 1.
I could live with a limit or 1 or 2. Three is fine, too.
Special apping doesn't just mean karma it can mean playing a role in a clan with a unique storyline and so on.
Quote from: Bebop on January 28, 2009, 11:55:47 PM
Special apping doesn't just mean karma it can mean playing a role in a clan with a unique storyline and so on.
I agree that special apping doesn't just mean playing above your karma, but can you explain what you mean about a unique storyline?
My prediction: those who actually get special apps approved will be 4x as trigger-happy, or 4x as isolated. There's no room for error when you only get 3 chances per year.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2009, 12:33:00 AM
My prediction: those who actually get special apps approved will be 4x as trigger-happy, or 4x as isolated. There's no room for error when you only get 3 chances per year.
Yeah, I'd agree with this. I mean--its good to cut down on staff time spent on reviewing special apps, as well as the amount of special characters. But I know if I play a special app I'll be more nervous than when playing a normal character, and that'll hurt my ability to act ICly, even if I try to stay IC all the time.
Quote from: jcljules on January 29, 2009, 12:37:58 AM
Yeah, I'd agree with this. I mean--its good to cut down on staff time spent on reviewing special apps, as well as the amount of special characters. But I know if I play a special app I'll be more nervous than when playing a normal character, and that'll hurt my ability to act ICly, even if I try to stay IC all the time.
...I don't think losing a special app character is any worse than losing a normal character with days worth of play time invested. If people are going to be more 'trigger-happy' because they have a specially apped character, then maybe that sort of person shouldn't have a specially apped character to begin with.
Right?
People care more about things that are special.
Hell, I quit playing for around 6 months after my last special app. died, and that wasn't even a role that was above my karma level: just a role with a few skill additions.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2009, 12:33:00 AM
My prediction: those who actually get special apps approved will be 4x as trigger-happy, or 4x as isolated. There's no room for error when you only get 3 chances per year.
If someone is playing a special app role that doesn't require them to be trigger-happy or isolated in the first place (from my perspective that covers everything other than rouge magickers and raiders) ... I don't think their behavior would change overly much.
Quote from: musashi on January 29, 2009, 12:59:30 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2009, 12:33:00 AM
My prediction: those who actually get special apps approved will be 4x as trigger-happy, or 4x as isolated. There's no room for error when you only get 3 chances per year.
If someone is playing a special app role that doesn't require them to be trigger-happy or isolated in the first place (from my perspective that covers everything other than rouge magickers and raiders) ... I don't think their behavior would change overly much.
Think about it: how many karma classes are there that aren't essentially paper tigers that need to get the first strike or die within a couple of shots by any 10-day warrior? Even if you're a special-apped gemmed mage, you're still going to fireball first and ask questions later. Or you're a damn fool.
But, we already established that not every special app is to play something above their karma, didn't we?
Sometimes folks just want extra skills or special mutations to give coded weight to an uncommon background idea.
What if you are rejected, fix about the character what you are asked to fix, and resubmit.... does that count as two or one?
Furthermore, what about all the crazy ideas that might just be crazy, but might also have been really cool?
I played a special-apped rat once, and that was fun. Who the hell is going to special app for a rat now?
I applied for a magick gwoshi once and got rejected...sure, maybe it was crazy, but it might have been accepted (and if it were, it would've been really fucking cool, in my humble opinion).
For a while I've had an idea about a psionicist/burglar who breaks into people's apartments, rearranges their belongings, then makes them believe the furniture was always arranged that way. No chance I'm going to waste one of my 3 slots/year on something that asinine (despite its potential for hilarity).
I've been thinking about applying for a city-elf warrior with some sneak skills, possibly clanned in a coded city-elf tribe in order to reinvigorate the city-elf scene, but right now I doubt I'm going to waste a special-app on what is quite possibly a hopeless role destined for an early death by twinkery.
Similarly, I was thinking about applying for a human tribal with some extra skills, to maybe help one of the tribes get some loving, but again: not going to waste a special app. on a character that can get picked off at a moment's notice by some bored elf with a buttload of arrows he's been practicing his poisoning skills on.
The only roles I'd wait 4 months for are sorceror or psionicist Bad Asses. Sorry, but that's just the only attitude that seems rational to me at this point.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2009, 01:24:25 AM
Furthermore, what about all the crazy ideas that might just be crazy, but might also have been really cool?
...
The only roles I'd wait 4 months for are sorceror or psionicist Bad Asses. Sorry, but that's just the only attitude that seems rational to me at this point.
This post makes me believe the appropriate number of special apps per player per year should be zero.
Easy now ... just a game on the internetz :P
But I can see where number13 is comming from in that, a lot of people think that the game is not about coded power, but rather, about good PC to PC interaction. To people of that mindset (myself included) special app'ing something for the ability to codedly "win" at the game might come up a bit shallow in comparison to some of your earlier examples, like app'ing a rat, were-kank, and what have you.
Quote from: musashi on January 29, 2009, 01:43:25 AM
Easy now ... just a game on the internetz :P
But I can see where number13 is comming from in that, a lot of people think that the game is not about coded power, but rather, about good PC to PC interaction. To people of that mindset (myself included) special app'ing something for the ability to codedly "win" at the game might come up a bit shallow in comparison to some of your earlier examples, like app'ing a rat, were-kank, and what have you.
It's not about "winning" the game: it's about being able to survive for at least the 4 months minimum you've invested in even -applying- for the role.
Then we come back around to the point I made at first. The special app character might not be a raider or a rouge 'gicker (or rate ...) who has to live on the bad end of the entire player base starting right out of character generation and survive on that jagged edge.
They might be a ranger who's dad was a merchant and thus, they want the bater and value skills; or they might be someone who wants to play a Whiran but only has karma for a Vivaduan, but they're still gemmed, and still hanging out in Allanak.
I don't see their chances of being suddenly hunted down as being exceptionally high, or in need of crazy power boosts to justify them.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2009, 01:24:25 AM
Furthermore, what about all the crazy ideas that might just be crazy, but might also have been really cool?
I played a special-apped rat once, and that was fun. Who the hell is going to special app for a rat now?
I applied for a magick gwoshi once and got rejected...sure, maybe it was crazy, but it might have been accepted (and if it were, it would've been really fucking cool, in my humble opinion).
For a while I've had an idea about a psionicist/burglar who breaks into people's apartments, rearranges their belongings, then makes them believe the furniture was always arranged that way. No chance I'm going to waste one of my 3 slots/year on something that asinine (despite its potential for hilarity).
I've been thinking about applying for a city-elf warrior with some sneak skills, possibly clanned in a coded city-elf tribe in order to reinvigorate the city-elf scene, but right now I doubt I'm going to waste a special-app on what is quite possibly a hopeless role destined for an early death by twinkery.
Similarly, I was thinking about applying for a human tribal with some extra skills, to maybe help one of the tribes get some loving, but again: not going to waste a special app. on a character that can get picked off at a moment's notice by some bored elf with a buttload of arrows he's been practicing his poisoning skills on.
The only roles I'd wait 4 months for are sorceror or psionicist Bad Asses. Sorry, but that's just the only attitude that seems rational to me at this point.
You know. Alot of players manage to make non-special apped roles last longer than four months, while dealing with the same dangers.
Quote from: musashi on January 29, 2009, 01:49:13 AM
Then we come back around to the point I made at first. The special app character might not be a raider or a rouge 'gicker (or rate ...) who has to live on the bad end of the entire player base starting right out of character generation and survive on that jagged edge.
They might be a ranger who's dad was a merchant and thus, they want the bater and value skills; or they might be someone who wants to play a Whiran but only has karma for a Vivaduan, but they're still gemmed, and still hanging out in Allanak.
I don't see their chances of being suddenly hunted down as being exceptionally high, or in need of crazy power boosts to justify them.
Okay, I appreciate your concern here with rooting out potential exceptions to the rule.
However, if we assume that players will behave with even a modicum of rationality, then the inevitable conclusion is that the majority of applications submitted will have to have a substantial payoff to balance out the risk of losing a scarce commodity. It's like banking with player characters: you're not going to grant a "loan" to a concept that isn't going to provide a return on the investment.
This leaves most experienced players who can already apply normally for most karma-required roles in the lurch: the expected payoff for a few extra skills is nominal compared to the 4 months of special-application dead-time you would incur. Thus, the only rational application consists of a powerful character above your karma level: getting a few extra skills on a class/race you can already apply for is simply not worth it. If you're essentially burning four months, you might as well go large.
Or... you can play something else during those four months? Or not be so focused on being "rewarded" or "powerful"?
I just don't get the logic.
Quote from: Clearsighted on January 29, 2009, 02:02:04 AM
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2009, 01:24:25 AM
Furthermore, what about all the crazy ideas that might just be crazy, but might also have been really cool?
I played a special-apped rat once, and that was fun. Who the hell is going to special app for a rat now?
I applied for a magick gwoshi once and got rejected...sure, maybe it was crazy, but it might have been accepted (and if it were, it would've been really fucking cool, in my humble opinion).
For a while I've had an idea about a psionicist/burglar who breaks into people's apartments, rearranges their belongings, then makes them believe the furniture was always arranged that way. No chance I'm going to waste one of my 3 slots/year on something that asinine (despite its potential for hilarity).
I've been thinking about applying for a city-elf warrior with some sneak skills, possibly clanned in a coded city-elf tribe in order to reinvigorate the city-elf scene, but right now I doubt I'm going to waste a special-app on what is quite possibly a hopeless role destined for an early death by twinkery.
Similarly, I was thinking about applying for a human tribal with some extra skills, to maybe help one of the tribes get some loving, but again: not going to waste a special app. on a character that can get picked off at a moment's notice by some bored elf with a buttload of arrows he's been practicing his poisoning skills on.
The only roles I'd wait 4 months for are sorceror or psionicist Bad Asses. Sorry, but that's just the only attitude that seems rational to me at this point.
You know. Alot of players manage to make non-special apped roles last longer than four months, while dealing with the same dangers.
A lot of players? Maybe. Let's let the data speak to the facts: the average lifespan of a character in the game is about 2 weeks, according to Gimf's last posted analysis. Hell, I've been playing the game for 10 years and I still die to dumb shit like the beetle that was north-east. When I consider the odds, I find it ridiculous to even imagine special apping say, a warrior who can speak cavilish. The skill adds zilch to your odds of survival, which means that you just set yourself up for an expected payoff of something like negative 14 weeks. In other words, you might as well play an ordinary warrior and save your special application slots for something totally fucking awesome that other players will probably roll their eyes at and go, "Gosh, another one of -those-?"
Quote from: a strange shadow on January 29, 2009, 02:13:28 AM
Or... you can play something else during those four months? Or not be so focused on being "rewarded" or "powerful"?
I just don't get the logic.
You don't get the logic because you don't understand the premises, probably because you've (according to your own admission, at least) been playing the same role for an ungodly amount of time. When you burn through characters at the rate of 1-2 a month, your perspective on the situation will probably change.
It's pretty basic risk vs. reward reasoning/game theory. You can try to wish that people were different, but human nature has a way of defeating all possible alternatives. So I'm simply making a prediction: fewer "flavor" special apps who blend in with the world. More applications for "power" special apps.
Of course, if you are satisfied by mudsex and tavern roleplay, this change probably won't affect you, and you can carry on with your interests.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2009, 02:15:50 AM
Let's let the data speak to the facts: the average lifespan of a character in the game is about 2 weeks, according to Gimf's last posted analysis. Hell, I've been playing the game for 10 years and I still die to dumb shit like the beetle that was north-east. When I consider the odds, I find it ridiculous to even imagine special apping say, a warrior who can speak cavilish. The skill adds zilch to your odds of survival, which means that you just set yourself up for an expected payoff of something like negative 14 weeks. In other words, you might as well play an ordinary warrior and save your special application slots for something totally fucking awesome that other players will probably roll their eyes at and go, "Gosh, another one of -those-?"
Could you tell me where in Gimf's post she said she average lifespan was about 2 weeks? I couldn't find it in the OP.
That aside though, I think the statistics are a bit skewed in that regard. I would think most people play characters they are really digging for at least a RL month if not several. I know quite a few have had characters last into RL years. But inbetween those awesome long-lived interesting characters I think that people probably have a couple of "throw-aways" as we call them, who they more or less, let die on purpose. Sort of a ... hmm I could flee the beetle but ... fuck it, this guy is boring." Kind of mentality.
I'm just basing that off my own personal experience, because the several month long ranger that I had was perfectly capable of fleeing from all manner of NPC wildlife to survive. Even though it was NPC wildlife that ended up getting him in the end, it took him basically falling into a hole and being attacked while prone and stuck in darkness to really do him in. Escapsing normal raptors/carru/scrabs/ect was never a problem.
So I'm just thinking that people who really
want their current PC to survive can usually keep them around for at least several months, hence ... I don't see the logic in assuming that special app characters are any more prone to die than the normal ones (again, unless you're apping a rouge 'gicker who lives in the waste or a raider ... but special app or not those roles have a low survivability rate) ... and since I don't see them as being any more prone to die, I don't see people playing them as being any more prone to being trigger-happy or iso than they normally would be.
EDIT: I would also totally blow all three of my yearly special apps on flavor roles like rats, were-shiks, and muls with a mustache.
I'm with Synthesis here. I don't even know If I want to make a special app now, with my track record of killing my chars off within only a few days playing. Now I'll save those three chances for some extremely well thought out, Karma class that I don't have, because why waste something I can only use three times on a couple little stat boosts that 10+ games days can get me. I've never spec-apped something that wasn't above starting karma, but now that's all I will probably app.
Then again I'll end up just making some uber class I've never played before and he'll die in under a days playing time too, so what does it matter?
It's not about winning or being better than other players. It's about having your character more represent the background you want for him/her, and giving him the tools to start you off in a well thought-out role.
I must say, I see Synthesis points. Sometimes, you have this ... concept in mind, that requires juuuust a little bit of Imm help. Not to make the chara superly skilled, not to make the chara super buff, but just to give the chara a 'lil' flavor, a 'lil' difference from ... let's admit it, pretty boring selection of guilds (Once you've played them all 3-8 times. Not that I did ... or anything.)
But fact is ... characters die, more then that ... they die often and suddenly, without them expecting it most of the time. Which means your wonderful concept that was special apped to offer just a tiny bit of flavour to him, could end it's existance on his third hour of gameplay. Or even if not third hour ...after a rl month. There are plenty of 'blink blink' insta mantis screen deaths in the game. Incidents which are completely out of whack, completely out of nowhere, and not really controllable unless you're forewarned.
With a limit on 3 apps per year, you will have to pick and choose your concepts. You can ... special app a (not so special/uber concept), and die in 3 hours/1 month, using up one special app selection. Or ... you can just create a mundane character (without the added flavor) do some compromises, do some alterations, and just ... 'grind' your concept into what you envisioned him to be. While leaving your special app slots for characters with ... UBER ABILITIES. Simply because ... UBER ABILITIES, tend to drastically increase one's lifespan, simply due to being ... UBER. Which means the odds of survivng past one months are higher, which means special apping charas with UBER abilities is just more sensable of an investment, then special apping a character with some added 'flavor' traits.
The result? People stop special apping concepts just to add something they would think enrich the game, even if it's not earth shattering elementals of doom. And begin special apping concepts that are 'only' uber in nature.
I would advice changing the policy a little. Simply do this. Every account can place 3 special apps which will be reviewed in the regular normal matter that they are being reviewed in now. AFTER the 3 special app limit is reached, all the 'other' special apps are put in a different section, which is always reviewed 'only' after the 'main' section is emptied out. Maybe move the 'delayed' app to 'normal' app, if it has been untouched for one month.
This way, people might still choose to special app flavor characters, but will need to come to the fact that they might have to wait ... perhaps much longer then they had usually.
Quote
You don't get the logic because you don't understand the premises, probably because you've (according to your own admission, at least) been playing the same role for an ungodly amount of time. When you burn through characters at the rate of 1-2 a month, your perspective on the situation will probably change.
Discounting months in which I've been inactive, my burn rate is probably around 2 characters a month if not higher. I also have made a grand total of 3 special apps over the course of probably two years (all rejected, and rightly so). I've played 3 hours worth of a karma-required character, and then stored it. Every other character I've had has been 0 karma. No sponsored roles applied for or offered.
Apparently I should get a Mundane Medal to be pinned to my chest, because I can have adequate fun in the game minus the ability to app a Mindbender with Sneak/Hide/Pick or a warrior tricked out with Backstab and AI strength. It feels like an arms race. Maybe I should have been special apping warriors with a few extra super powers all along? How is my character ever going to be significant in a coded sense otherwise?
EDIT:
QuoteI would also totally blow all three of my yearly special apps on flavor roles like rats, were-shiks, and muls with a mustache.
Agreed.
Hmm, I must be playing on a different wavelength. My PC's have never died unless I knew the situation there were in was dangerous beforehand (I never tried to drink from the cleaning barrel, the boards warned me ahead of time!!!). I've never really had death spring up on me out of nowhere and leave me completely dissatisfied, so I wouldn't be worried about suddent insta-death affecting what I do or don't special app.
A post was removed for flaming.
For what it's worth, I don't think that saving your apps up for a psi/sorc is a good strategy. So few apps for those classes get approved, it wouldn't seem to be worth it, to me. The less you ask for, the more likely you are to get approved.
Player A will have 3 rejected psi apps. Player B will have 3 approved apps for something Player A thought was "a waste."
Saving special apps isn't worth it, only to people who have played them before and are already in the "been there done that" phase of playing Arm. To those of us who have little or no knowledge of the more "arcane" and dark side of Armageddon, these are the "big deal" roles that we strive for. And if we don't "waste" our special apps on those roles, who will? The same few who always get those roles anyway? If that's the case, why bother even allowing them at all? Just tell us "these roles exist only for those few, and will never be available for anyone else again."
Quote from: musashi on January 29, 2009, 02:59:54 AM
Hmm, I must be playing on a different wavelength. My PC's have never died unless I knew the situation there were in was dangerous beforehand (I never tried to drink from the cleaning barrel, the boards warned me ahead of time!!!). I've never really had death spring up on me out of nowhere and leave me completely dissatisfied, so I wouldn't be worried about suddent insta-death affecting what I do or don't special app.
Count yourself lucky. Trying not to go into detail, I have had a streak of late where I go through a couple characters a
week. Some of it was the normal stuff...npc critters and bad choices, mostly. However, some of it was...well, I can't go into ic detail. Suffice it to say some really good characters I looked forward to playing for a good long time met the mantis head early and I'm still not very happy about that. It certainly wasn't by a choice I made. It was due to other player 'factors'.
I can understand a little of what Synthesis is saying. Though again, I don't have the patience for special apps and so I doubt I'll ever make that Ubercharacter. I might someday go for a tweaking on a character I could play now, if I come up with a concept good enough to make me consider it worth the long wait time for approval.
But that's just me.
The whole point of reducing the number of special applications you can toss out in a year is so that the wait will be less. Instead of having to wait three months to hear back about that role you want to play that's just one more karma than you've got, because there will be fewer people spamming in a new spec app every time they kill off their old one, you might only have to wait two weeks.
Since I only very rarely spec app anything, I don't see anything wrong with that. I personally benefit a lot from not having to wait four months for my one spec app in the last two years to go through. This change makes me happy.
So instead I get to wait two weeks for my character that may last two weeks... or may last a lot longer. If you're interested in preserving the length of time you play a spec app, maybe you shouldn't engage in risky behaviors like... playing the game. ;)
As for people 'saving it up' I think that's pretty ridiculous. If you're the kind of person who is interested in playing more than 3 uber-leet beefed up concepts in a year, I'm not really crying for you. Or who has to fudge your application three times to have it go through. To me, that seems like not putting enough thought into not only what you want to play, but what would be acceptable to have in the game world also. Come walk with the rest of us, who can have fun without bugging the staff with twelve concepts that just need a little or a lot of tweaking.
Got to go to work, sorry for the lack of polish on this one :(
Your three Special applications per year does not include the roles offered in Staff Announcements does it?
That's been answered a couple of times now. :P
No, it doesn't.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2009, 02:25:23 AMOf course, if you are satisfied by mudsex and tavern roleplay, this change probably won't affect you, and you can carry on with your interests.
...rofl. Cute. Also no.
You and I will have to agree to disagree. We have a completely different approach to the game.
Mine seems to be working out for me, so I'll stick with it.
The idea behind this isn't to restrict you to playing only roles that are 'uber' so you can survive. In fact it's quite the opposite. I've seen a lot of special apps that were simply crazy and had an ice cube's chance in hell of being approved (example: zalanthan heavy metal rock band complete with metal instruments), or that were so completely unbalanced that the player should have known it would have thrown the whole game off (example: ancient sorcerer in a half-giant's body but with human intelligence, with a full warrior skill tree).
The goal behind this is to reduce the special app work load by encouraging you to send in special apps that are likely to get approved. We'll be working on some extra documentation to give more hints and tips towards that. Instead of trying to special app the most powerful character possible, you should focus on concepts you've always wanted to try that have been beyond your reach, and put lots of thought and detail into them before you apply.
Synthesis, I looked over your account and see that in the last twelve months you have submitted...
Three special applications.
So I guess what I'm saying is that you should just keep on keeping on and continue to submit special applications through the request tool at your current rate, and you should be just fine.
What if you are rejected, fix about the character what you are asked to fix, and resubmit.... does that count as two or one?
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 29, 2009, 09:31:47 AM
What if you are rejected, fix about the character what you are asked to fix, and resubmit.... does that count as two or one?
A rejected app counts the same as an approved app. You won't be able to submit again for 30 days and counts against your 3 per 12 month limit.
I think we're all forgetting that this doesn't affect the playerbase, except for the 10% that send in over four applications.
I mean, I send in one special app a year, if that.
Quote from: mansa on January 29, 2009, 11:16:09 AM
I think we're all forgetting that this doesn't affect the playerbase, except for the 10% that send in over four applications.
I mean, I send in one special app a year, if that.
It doesn't even affect 10% of the playerbase; because only about 1/3 of the playerbase special apps at all. This affects 10% of that 1/3, so about 4% of the playerbase total.
Quote from: musashi on January 29, 2009, 02:26:08 AM
Could you tell me where in Gimf's post she said she average lifespan was about 2 weeks? I couldn't find it in the OP.
This was actually in a different thread, a while ago: http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,31961.msg371802.html#msg371802
Quote from: Cavaticus on January 29, 2009, 09:31:35 AM
Synthesis, I looked over your account and see that in the last twelve months you have submitted...
Three special applications.
So I guess what I'm saying is that you should just keep on keeping on and continue to submit special applications through the request tool at your current rate, and you should be just fine.
I think Syn is more worried about how this will affect the game and people he plays with, more than how it will affect him. But I'm not sure.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 29, 2009, 12:05:06 PM
Quote from: Cavaticus on January 29, 2009, 09:31:35 AM
Synthesis, I looked over your account and see that in the last twelve months you have submitted...
Three special applications.
So I guess what I'm saying is that you should just keep on keeping on and continue to submit special applications through the request tool at your current rate, and you should be just fine.
I think Syn is more worried about how this will affect the game and people he plays with, more than how it will affect him. But I'm not sure.
I might've had only 3 special applications in the past year, but I also only played what...3 serious characters in the past year? I see a PC on my list that fought in the gith war...and I only recognize three of the character names following it, including my current. Further, those 3 special apps have all come within probably the last 3 months or so.
My last serious character died during the summer/early fall (if I recall correctly), and I didn't start playing again until December. Why? Because there aren't many stock race/class/subclass combinations that really interest me anymore. I've got what...72 characters on my account now.
I've played human rangers, burglars, warriors, assassins, Rukkians. I've played city-elf warriors, assassins, pickpockets, elkrosians, and Vivaduans. I've played dwarf rangers, warriors, and assassins. I've played half-giant warriors. I've played half-elf rangers, assassins, warriors?, and Rukkians. I've played d-elf warriors, rangers, merchants, Vivaduans and Whirans.
I have very little interest in playing ordinary roles anymore, and I try to avoid the responsibility that comes with sponsored (noble/templar/GMH) roles. That leaves me with the special application process. The reason I'm willing to wait 30 days for approval is that there's honestly nothing else in the game I'd rather be doing. The only reason I'm even remotely interested in my current role is because it's so utterly ludicrous that it's like a personal challenge to see how long I can gut it out.
So...you know what? Fine. I'll log into the game the once per year I actually manage to sneak a special application through. I have better shit to do than play another Amos.
I actually agree with Synthesis on this point.
I've been playing for almost 17 years now, I have played everything that can be played through normal app process several times over. Including some things that are closed now.
So now, I have gotten to the point that I will likely have to use the special app process to have any more PCs that interest me (And they will be suprisingly mundane). Now true, I can keep a PC alive for more then a year normaly, but what happens if I have a string of bad luck? And why exactly are some of us being punished for the stupidity of others? I personaly think the limiting of special apps should be taken on a case by case basis. We all know it is not hard to note an account. player amos puts in 10 stupid special apps a year, ingnore all till an OL says otherwise. There, thats 10 silly apps taken out and it would not take long to clean the rest as well as for most people to get the hint.
Quote from: Synthesis on January 29, 2009, 01:40:55 PM
I have very little interest in playing ordinary roles anymore, and I try to avoid the responsibility that comes with sponsored (noble/templar/GMH) roles. That leaves me with the special application process. The reason I'm willing to wait 30 days for approval is that there's honestly nothing else in the game I'd rather be doing. The only reason I'm even remotely interested in my current role is because it's so utterly ludicrous that it's like a personal challenge to see how long I can gut it out.
So...you know what? Fine. I'll log into the game the once per year I actually manage to sneak a special application through. I have better shit to do than play another Amos.
Why don't you take on more challenges akin to your current character? Why not voluntarily play the game on hard mode? Ditch your starting coins. Promise yourself not to use any coded skills but Sirihish and contact. Ask to have your Sirihish skill set to base levels. Research a real life psychiatric malady and play it as best you can. Pick a personality type on one of the personality scales Gimf has linked to in the past and play that as best you can. Make your own rules so Armageddon becomes a challenge again.
Maybe it's just me only having played 6 years and having a very low character count, but I think it's kinda sad if you feel the only way you can make an interesting character is with an unusual combination of coded skills.
Quote from: X-D on January 29, 2009, 01:48:47 PMplayer amos puts in 10 stupid special apps a year, ingnore all till an OL says otherwise. There, thats 10 silly apps taken out and it would not take long to clean the rest as well as for most people to get the hint.
Isn't that what they're doing? Only difference is the number is 3, not 10.
I would very much like for staff to let us know how this affects the average number of spec app submitted each month.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 29, 2009, 02:20:10 PM
I would very much like for staff to let us know how this affects the average number of spec app submitted each month.
It reduces them.
Quote from: Shalooonsh on January 29, 2009, 02:35:21 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 29, 2009, 02:20:10 PM
I would very much like for staff to let us know how this affects the average number of spec app submitted each month.
It reduces them.
rofl
Quote from: Shalooonsh on January 29, 2009, 02:35:21 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 29, 2009, 02:20:10 PM
I would very much like for staff to let us know how this affects the average number of spec app submitted each month.
It reduces them.
...my analysis based on best-guesstimates and the data Vanth provided is that special apps will be reduced by about 40 to 50 per year, 17%-ish of the total.
That is, assuming that this cap does not prompt a significant number of players who have been apping 0 to 2 special apps per year to start apping up to the cap, because their perspective has been changed by the cap along the lines of, "There are fewer special apped PCs now so this is a good time for mine," or "We each have a limit and dangit I'm going to get ALL of mine."
I doubt that will happen, but with human behavior, ya never know. A follow-up analysis of the relevant data in 6 months would probably be a good thing.
Hehe, I laughed too...
Nice one, Vanth Shalooonsh.
I was hoping for numbers after the fact. ;)
I hope that it is a significant reduction: the ones that would have been rejected won't get submitted, and it will make the ones that get approved take less time and feel like less of a load on the staffer handling the.
I am assuming the number of approved apps will remain pretty consistent with what they are now.
But you know what they say about assumptions.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 29, 2009, 03:12:05 PM
Hehe, I laughed too...
Nice one, Vanth.
... :o
>emote pushes back abruptly from ^me table, chair skidding with a piercing scrape as !me shuffles aside towards the wall
It wasn't sarcasm, lol.
I was acknowledging that it was a good comeback.
Really... wait...
Someone is at my d...
NO NO NOasdfkjdfasjdf
a
adfja
The short, bearded man has lost link.
edited to add: Ooops... i just realized my mistake, sorry Shalooonsh. :D
He STILL doesn't get it.
Quote from: Eloran on January 29, 2009, 03:37:16 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 29, 2009, 03:12:05 PM
Hehe, I laughed too...
Nice one, Vanth.
... :o
>emote pushes back abruptly from ^me table, chair skidding with a piercing scrape as !me shuffles aside towards the wall
>emote Sighing, @ closes his eyes, giving his head a sad little shake.
FantasyWriter,
Our records indicate that your PC, [PCNAME], will be passing on soon. For
your convenience and future reference, we have taken the liberty of
compiling all of his journal entries, in-game board posts and in-
character writings; they will be attached below.
Thanks for playing, and we hope to see you back again soon.
Best Regards,
The Admin Team
Quote from: Shalooonsh on January 29, 2009, 03:53:33 PM
FantasyWriter,
Our records indicate that your PC, [PCNAME], will be passing on soon. For
your convenience and future reference, we have taken the liberty of
compiling all of his journal entries, in-game board posts and in-
character writings; they will be attached below.
Thanks for playing, and we hope to see you back again soon.
Best Regards,
The Admin Team
:D :D :D
Quote from: Gimfalisette on January 29, 2009, 02:51:29 PM
That is, assuming that this cap does not prompt a significant number of players who have been apping 0 to 2 special apps per year to start apping up to the cap, because their perspective has been changed by the cap along the lines of, "There are fewer special apped PCs now so this is a good time for mine," or "We each have a limit and dangit I'm going to get ALL of mine."
I doubt that will happen, but with human behavior, ya never know. A follow-up analysis of the relevant data in 6 months would probably be a good thing.
That 'would' happen. I know this because now I feel that I should've apped more often. Now I can almost guarantee that I will make an effort to fill up my three slots a year. And if there are two months left for my running year, odds are I'll toss in a special app (Most likely a poorly written one, poorly thought through, and not 'all' that really desired), just so I'll have it pending, when my count resets. Cant be wasteful now, can we? And my total special app amount is ... negligible to say the least.
Yeah, I believe Karma alone is a flawed system and that special apps complete it. I'm not trying to join the debate here so much as support other people who have already stated my views.
That being said, the limit doesn't bother me. 3 special apps per rl year? I doubt if I do even 1 app a rl year, let alone a special app.
Then maybe remove the special app limit with permission from the staff? For those who've already played sorcs and mindbenders and whatever else and have been at the game for so many years. It's not like the world is over for the exceptions to this case. At least I hope it's that way.
For the regular Amos', the cap works fine. For those who'd special app 3 in a row in three month's time, you just need to wait a year until your next one, no matter how crappy your 3 were. In the meanwhile, people who actually have basis for a special app can app without the clutter and extra time for the next 9 months. Fair enough, eh?
Quote from: Semper on January 29, 2009, 04:21:44 PM
Then maybe remove the special app limit with permission from the staff? For those who've already played sorcs and mindbenders and whatever else and have been at the game for so many years. It's not like the world is over for the exceptions to this case. At least I hope it's that way.
For the regular Amos', the cap works fine. For those who'd special app 3 in a row in three month's time, you just need to wait a year until your next one, no matter how crappy your 3 were. In the meanwhile, people who actually have basis for a special app can app without the clutter and extra time for the next 9 months. Fair enough, eh?
If staff think you are ready to play sorcerers and psionicists without special apping within the limits of the rules, we will make an exception for them by granting them the karma for the roles.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 29, 2009, 09:34:18 AM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 29, 2009, 09:31:47 AM
What if you are rejected, fix about the character what you are asked to fix, and resubmit.... does that count as two or one?
A rejected app counts the same as an approved app. You won't be able to submit again for 30 days and counts against your 3 per 12 month limit.
Can we get some kind of leeway here? I'm not really worried about ever hitting the specapp limit. I just think it would be a lot cooler if staff tried to find a way to work with the player to make that neato concept.
Sometimes I get a "Sorry, this concept won't work for IC reasons." or "No chance in hell, this build would break the game!" for a concept I happen to think was well thought out. When this happens, I really wasn't given any info as to why; just that it wouldn't work. Which I guess is fine.
I just think it would cool if the staff could help us tweak it bit so it would work in the game world. Either by giving us alternative options for the next specapp or by contacting us and offering suggestions as to how it can be changed to fit with the game.
[sudden ideas]
More subguild options!
And I think there should be 1 karma tribal option so we don't have to worry about losing that handful of useful skills to the nomad class.
[/sudden ideas]
Edit: because I used the word "cool" way too many times.
Quote from: Morgenes on January 29, 2009, 04:30:34 PM
Quote from: Semper on January 29, 2009, 04:21:44 PM
Then maybe remove the special app limit with permission from the staff? For those who've already played sorcs and mindbenders and whatever else and have been at the game for so many years. It's not like the world is over for the exceptions to this case. At least I hope it's that way.
For the regular Amos', the cap works fine. For those who'd special app 3 in a row in three month's time, you just need to wait a year until your next one, no matter how crappy your 3 were. In the meanwhile, people who actually have basis for a special app can app without the clutter and extra time for the next 9 months. Fair enough, eh?
If staff think you are ready to play sorcerers and psionicists without special apping within the limits of the rules, we will make an exception for them by granting them the karma for the roles.
Quote from: SynthesisI've played human rangers, burglars, warriors, assassins, Rukkians. I've played city-elf warriors, assassins, pickpockets, elkrosians, and Vivaduans. I've played dwarf rangers, warriors, and assassins. I've played half-giant warriors. I've played half-elf rangers, assassins, warriors?, and Rukkians. I've played d-elf warriors, rangers, merchants, Vivaduans and Whirans.
I have very little interest in playing ordinary roles anymore, and I try to avoid the responsibility that comes with sponsored (noble/templar/GMH) roles. That leaves me with the special application process. The reason I'm willing to wait 30 days for approval is that there's honestly nothing else in the game I'd rather be doing. The only reason I'm even remotely interested in my current role is because it's so utterly ludicrous that it's like a personal challenge to see how long I can gut it out.
I meant in these situations.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 29, 2009, 03:12:05 PM
Hehe, I laughed too...
Nice one, Vanth Shalooonsh.
I was hoping for numbers after the fact. ;)
It will take some time before we can see what the effect is. Some people may choose to use up all their apps in Jan, Feb, and Mar while others will space them out. While we may have some idea what the effect has been, in about 6 months, waiting a year would be better, because then we'll be comparing two equivalent sets of apps: i.e. one year's worth in each case.
If you're bored with the class options you have at, say, 2 karma, then I'm sorry, but you are bored with the game itself. All a sorceror is, is a more powerful combat/mage class. All a psionicist is, is a more powerful stealth/social class. They don't give you access to a different game, or interaction with different players. They don't make travel cakes taste any different.
I suspect the only difference is in your perception: because you have to put a lot of thought into the concept, and because the concept is more restricted, you care more about it. If you cared that much about your warriors and burglars, you might have more fun with them, too. But because you know you can roll up a warrior or a burglar on any day that ends in Y, you don't invest as much in it.
Quote from: Vanth on January 29, 2009, 08:55:02 PM
If you're bored with the class options you have at, say, 2 karma, then I'm sorry, but you are bored with the game itself. All a sorceror is, is a more powerful combat/mage class. All a psionicist is, is a more powerful stealth/social class. They don't give you access to a different game, or interaction with different players. They don't make travel cakes taste any different.
I suspect the only difference is in your perception: because you have to put a lot of thought into the concept, and because the concept is more restricted, you care more about it. If you cared that much about your warriors and burglars, you might have more fun with them, too. But because you know you can roll up a warrior or a burglar on any day that ends in Y, you don't invest as much in it.
I whole-heartedly agree on the point Vanth just made.
And... I've only special apped once in the whole nearly five years I've been playing.
Quote from: Vanth on January 29, 2009, 08:55:02 PM
If you're bored with the class options you have at, say, 2 karma, then I'm sorry, but you are bored with the game itself. All a sorceror is, is a more powerful combat/mage class. All a psionicist is, is a more powerful stealth/social class. They don't give you access to a different game, or interaction with different players. They don't make travel cakes taste any different.
I disagree. It's like saying, if you're tired of being a human/assassin, then you're tired of being an elf/assassin. The two allow a whole sort of different gameplay, even if the skills are reasonably same.
I disagree quiet a bit about the psis. Psionics open a whole different entirety to the game in my opinion, albeit I have not really actually played one. Yes it is majorly a social/shady role, but it allows one to also experience things a social/shady one would never experience. It allows portraying psyches and dementias that would be a little stretched for other guilds.
Also, I'd like to think mages tend to differ quiet a bit in personality. Sure, in the end, a mage is just a merchant guild with neat tricks. But if magicks begins to affect their values, then each mage is different from each other, or at the very least ... can be. That's why I personally am not interested in playing any mages, except drovians/nilazi (for which I dont have the karma). Not because they're the most powerful (they really really arent), but because it allows concepts that would be .... a little stretchy (in my opinion) if applied to a rukkian or a krathi (Even though power wise, a rukkian or krathi could dish out much more damage then drov).
Well I for one am not bored with the types of characters I play, or the skillsets. I get a kick out of them. And most of them are -not- karma-restricted at all. Ranger, merchant, human. Occasionally I shift to something else. But that's the usual.
However I feel that by saying "sorcerers are -just- this" and "psis are -just- that" you take all the excitement about the possibility that some day I might actually earn the right to play one. If you feel it's no different from anything else, then I invite you to add that amount of karma to my account so I can roll one up any time I like without having to special app it. Afterall, it's "just" another class, they don't make travel cakes any different, or get access to another game, or interact with any different people.
Quote from: Dar on January 29, 2009, 09:53:37 PM
Quote from: Vanth on January 29, 2009, 08:55:02 PM
If you're bored with the class options you have at, say, 2 karma, then I'm sorry, but you are bored with the game itself. All a sorceror is, is a more powerful combat/mage class. All a psionicist is, is a more powerful stealth/social class. They don't give you access to a different game, or interaction with different players. They don't make travel cakes taste any different.
I disagree. It's like saying, if you're tired of being a human/assassin, then you're tired of being an elf/assassin. The two allow a whole sort of different gameplay, even if the skills are reasonably same.
Exactly. And I think that was the essence of what Vanth was saying. At 2 karma you have 5 races and 8 guilds to choose from. That's 40 different combinations. Factor in starting location and sub-guilds and you have well over 500 distinct options. Add in whatever flavour, quirks, flaws, illnesses, desires you want for your PC and... yeah, infinite.
Quote from: Dar on January 29, 2009, 09:53:37 PM
Quote from: Vanth on January 29, 2009, 08:55:02 PM
If you're bored with the class options you have at, say, 2 karma, then I'm sorry, but you are bored with the game itself. All a sorceror is, is a more powerful combat/mage class. All a psionicist is, is a more powerful stealth/social class. They don't give you access to a different game, or interaction with different players. They don't make travel cakes taste any different.
I disagree quiet a bit about the psis. Psionics open a whole different entirety to the game in my opinion, albeit I have not really actually played one. Yes it is majorly a social/shady role, but it allows one to also experience things a social/shady one would never experience. It allows portraying psyches and dementias that would be a little stretched for other guilds.
I think its something that most shouldn't experience. Though I think by this time, most long term players with a yearning to play a psionicst, have had at least a special app crack at it by now. I think out of all the guilds, they bring the least to the game.
Quote from: Clearsighted on January 29, 2009, 10:44:27 PM
I think out of all the guilds, they [psionicists] bring the least to the game.
Completely disagree, here, for a smashingly wide array of reasons, none of which I can really get into.
The only time they "bring the least" is when there's a poor player at the helm, or when there are too many in the game.
Quote from: Only He Stands There on January 29, 2009, 11:24:20 PM
Quote from: Clearsighted on January 29, 2009, 10:44:27 PM
I think out of all the guilds, they [psionicists] bring the least to the game.
Completely disagree, here, for a smashingly wide array of reasons, none of which I can really get into.
The only time they "bring the least" is when there's a poor player at the helm, or when there are too many in the game.
You may disagree with me, but I agree with you.
If you can't keep a special app'd character concept alive for at least four months to evenly space out your applications, then you probably should focus on learning to survive and make friends within the game before getting behind the wheels of something that may take staff time to set up.
A special app is like a car. A nice car. While most of us drive around in our average cars like F-150s and Focuses, the special app serves as a Lamborghini. Now, someone with an average car could drive all over the world, into crazy situations, and have plenty of fun with it, and most importantly, never wreck their average car. Let's say that you'd like to put in a special app, so you do, and you get your nice car. But a few weeks later, you crash it and totally wreck it and are forced to drive an average car once again, and summarily crash that one. Why should you be given another free nice car if you can't drive? Learn to drive before doing those complex, well-thought out concepts, and this 3 per year limit will be no big deal.
Quote from: Archbaron on January 31, 2009, 01:59:22 PM
If you can't keep a special app'd character concept alive for at least four months to evenly space out your applications, then you probably should focus on learning to survive and make friends within the game before getting behind the wheels of something that may take staff time to set up.
A special app is like a car. A nice car. While most of us drive around in our average cars like F-150s and Focuses, the special app serves as a Lamborghini. Now, someone with an average car could drive all over the world, into crazy situations, and have plenty of fun with it, and most importantly, never wreck their average car. Let's say that you'd like to put in a special app, so you do, and you get your nice car. But a few weeks later, you crash it and totally wreck it and are forced to drive an average car once again, and summarily crash that one. Why should you be given another free nice car if you can't drive? Learn to drive before doing those complex, well-thought out concepts, and this 3 per year limit will be no big deal.
You mean there's a way to learn about spells without actually jumping in the car and flying at full speed?
I like special apping my first sorcerer.
and dying 4 hours later.
You mean, gathering mana from yourself makes you wanted? duuuuuuuu
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?gather
oh great, the helpfiles mention that NOW....
/shakes fist
No, I'm saying that if you can't stay alive because of the basics, then you have a problem. Learning your spells is part of playing that part, and dying in that sense is a little different. However, if you play it realistically and not just cast spells for the hell of it, and actually find a hiding place, then you won't have this problem.
I'm not saying that this was necessarily your problem or your fault mansa.
Quote from: Archbaron on January 31, 2009, 01:59:22 PM
If you can't keep a special app'd character concept alive for at least four months to evenly space out your applications, then you probably should focus on learning to survive and make friends within the game before getting behind the wheels of something that may take staff time to set up.
A special app is like a car. A nice car. While most of us drive around in our average cars like F-150s and Focuses, the special app serves as a Lamborghini. Now, someone with an average car could drive all over the world, into crazy situations, and have plenty of fun with it, and most importantly, never wreck their average car. Let's say that you'd like to put in a special app, so you do, and you get your nice car. But a few weeks later, you crash it and totally wreck it and are forced to drive an average car once again, and summarily crash that one. Why should you be given another free nice car if you can't drive? Learn to drive before doing those complex, well-thought out concepts, and this 3 per year limit will be no big deal.
Good analogy.
I played my first two spec apps last year, one of them died supper fast (4 play days in about a real life week--less than twenty minutes after I got my last app related setup.)).
The other... he died with about fifteen days on him I believe. Needless to say I was MUCH more careful that time around. :D
Quote from: Archbaron on January 31, 2009, 01:59:22 PM
If you can't keep a special app'd character concept alive for at least four months to evenly space out your applications, then you probably should focus on learning to survive and make friends within the game before getting behind the wheels of something that may take staff time to set up.
A special app is like a car. A nice car. While most of us drive around in our average cars like F-150s and Focuses, the special app serves as a Lamborghini. Now, someone with an average car could drive all over the world, into crazy situations, and have plenty of fun with it, and most importantly, never wreck their average car. Let's say that you'd like to put in a special app, so you do, and you get your nice car. But a few weeks later, you crash it and totally wreck it and are forced to drive an average car once again, and summarily crash that one. Why should you be given another free nice car if you can't drive? Learn to drive before doing those complex, well-thought out concepts, and this 3 per year limit will be no big deal.
The game isn't about living the longest, and dying doesn't mean you can't play roles properly. Maybe I'm misinterpreting you here, but that just a damn stupid statement. I've never had a character live 4 real life months. Are you saying I'm a bad player?
I thought that he was just saying how much more it sucks to spends a lot of extra time and effort (the player and staff) on a special app, just to loose it quickly.
It has to be frustrating as hell for the staffers.
I would assume that when the staffer set up my first spec app, then a [censored] ganked me with ten minutes and twenty rooms later, he wasn't too happy with the time he spent setting the PC up that he could have been doing something else. Not to mention spent reviewing the app and checking around to make sure it fit the game.
The more work put on a PC the more Ginka craves to sink it's teeth into it. :D
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 31, 2009, 05:27:15 PM
I thought that he was just saying how much more it sucks to spends a lot of extra time and effort (the player and staff) on a special app, just to loose it quickly.
It has to be frustrating as hell for the staffers.
I would assume that when the staffer set up my first spec app, then a [censored] ganked me with ten minutes and twenty rooms later, he wasn't too happy with the time he spent setting the PC up that he could have been doing something else. Not to mention spent reviewing the app and checking around to make sure it fit the game.
Yes, I was comparing it to frustration. People die, and its not always their fault, but someone who goes through more than 3 or 4 special apps a year really needs to reconsider what brings them enjoyment in the game and what they're doing wrong.
Keeping a character alive for four months wasn't the point of the analogy.
I think my longest lived character did about 1.5 RL months, spec app or not.
I don't really care to have characters live long sometimes, because I'd rather go and play something else, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Granted, all of my spec apps died to something "not really" my fault. I think I as a player enrich the world a great amount, plus, I spec app a lot too.
Quote from: Archbaron on January 31, 2009, 06:06:42 PM
Quote from: FantasyWriter on January 31, 2009, 05:27:15 PM
I thought that he was just saying how much more it sucks to spends a lot of extra time and effort (the player and staff) on a special app, just to loose it quickly.
It has to be frustrating as hell for the staffers.
I would assume that when the staffer set up my first spec app, then a [censored] ganked me with ten minutes and twenty rooms later, he wasn't too happy with the time he spent setting the PC up that he could have been doing something else. Not to mention spent reviewing the app and checking around to make sure it fit the game.
Yes, I was comparing it to frustration. People die, and its not always their fault, but someone who goes through more than 3 or 4 special apps a year really needs to reconsider what brings them enjoyment in the game and what they're doing wrong.
Keeping a character alive for four months wasn't the point of the analogy.
I know. I was saying people aren't playing wrong when they lose 3 or 4 spec-aps a year. I'm also saying maybe they do enjoy it.
Quote from: Is Friday on January 31, 2009, 06:09:08 PM
I think my longest lived character did about 1.5 RL months, spec app or not.
I don't really care to have characters live long sometimes, because I'd rather go and play something else, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Amen.
Also, I've never special apped. There was something much more rewarding about playing <karma role(s)> without shortcuts. I might special app one day, but It's probably going to be for a merchant and not a walking death machine.
Quote from: Sephiroto on January 31, 2009, 07:47:51 PM
I might special app one day, but It's probably going to be for a merchant and not a walking death machine.
I'm going to special app a merchant who can craft walking death machines.
Quote from: number13 on January 31, 2009, 09:46:35 PM
Quote from: Sephiroto on January 31, 2009, 07:47:51 PM
I might special app one day, but It's probably going to be for a merchant and not a walking death machine.
I'm going to special app a merchant who can craft walking death machines.
(http://www.videogamesblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/metal-gear-tx-55-specs.jpg)
Quote from: Fathi on January 31, 2009, 09:56:50 PM
(http://www.videogamesblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/metal-gear-tx-55-specs.jpg)
Please stop posting pictures of my character.
Quote from: mansa on January 31, 2009, 02:05:38 PM
http://www.armageddon.org/cgi-bin/help_index/show_help?gather
I actually kind of wish this wasn't in the public documentation.
Me too. Why not just send it to an apped sorcerer?
Something to think about for the next game, I guess.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 31, 2009, 11:02:10 PM
Me too. Why not just send it to an apped sorcerer?
I sort of thought that about not just gather, but the different paths of magick as well. And while we're sending stuff to people when they get their character approved ... a little message saying how to look at the spell helpfiles would be nice.
Quote from: musashi on February 01, 2009, 01:32:07 AM
a little message saying how to look at the spell helpfiles would be nice.
AMEN.
Quote from: musashi on February 01, 2009, 01:32:07 AM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 31, 2009, 11:02:10 PM
Me too. Why not just send it to an apped sorcerer?
I sort of thought that about not just gather, but the different paths of magick as well. And while we're sending stuff to people when they get their character approved ... a little message saying how to look at the spell helpfiles would be nice.
While I agree that information about gathering and the paths of knowledge aren't common knowledge to characters, most people would find it very difficult, if not impossible to write a fleshed out background for a sorc if they did not know those basic bits of information. Honestly, those few files hold no greater secrets than the help files for "sea_of_eternal_dust", "language_tatlum", or the plant "runebane" do.
Aside from those helpfiles, the only other knowledge I had to go by when I wrote my sorcerer's background was what I learned through correspondence with the the Imms. One of them was kind enough to give me some basic examples of how one might learn true magick. Since there are few helpfiles and no example backgrounds for sorcs that is about the only option we have. Taking away what little lore the players have access to might keep a few secrets hidden, but I don't having everyone know that information poses any sort of threat. How many times have you met a Bynner or a Merchant asking around about the Path of Movement or the Path of War? Chances are, you haven't. So I'm confident the issue in question isn't a big deal.
Aside from that, adding a blurb to the "skills" helpfile that teaches everyone how to look up available skill help by subdivision, i.e., "help psi_<skill>" "help magick_<skill>" help "language_<skill>" would be helpful.