QuotePerhaps it's time to start a new thread regarding new additions. Be it new clan, new content to existing clan, etc? I'll read it. I can't guarantee everything put forth will come to pass, (world fit, theme fit, power balances) but hearing from you all regarding desired XYZ certainly won't hurt. I'm aware like-threads have been in play before, but as we all know - time changes opinion/want.
For the love of baby Tek, don't attack others for their ideas please. Civil debate/input and constructive feedback are a different matter.
Have at it!
ETA
** Re-cap of ideas for ease of read to reply to in separate thread by myself/other staff.
- City Elf Tribe
- More Noble Houses open.
- Pclan reworking (in a round about way)
- Some sort of outfit/clothing QoL (code, but it was read/noted)
- Full class mages
- GMH hunting branches
- LARP structure
- Remove crimecode
- Code markers for criminals
- Slave roles
- New/more plants & materials to make cloth
- More grunt jobs.
- Power from death - sorc/mage
- More explorer content/animal dens. + Dye making ability. + Magicker and anti-magicker tools, charms, potions.
- Tuluk, in part/whole.
- Silt sea expansion/addition.
- Clan compounds/apartments overhaul.
- Underground content/tunnels/networks
- "Outside the Known" force.
- More smokes/smokables.
- Post char-gen sub guilds.
PLAYABLE, OPEN AND STAFF SUPPORTED CITY ELF TRIBES!!
[refer to 200 message thread about this in discord yesterday. Staff might be working on it already in which case thank you!!]
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTmn74cLvrbLUzYxy-6ay3fBTTx9g_Zb13ZaKNGY5-9qxSWD7-F&usqp=CAU)
With the closure of Tuluk, the Allanaki Mercenary Company has truly become just that. A military organization that isn't the Arm of the Dragon but otherwise is completely loyal to the city.
I would like if the T'zai Byn branched out a little more and attempted to become a little more independent. They hardly use their desert outpost anymore, and most of their contracts are to guard things.
Mercenaries, to me, should be willing to do anything for a little drinking coin, but there are far more 'defensive' contract than there are 'aggressive' ones.
What if there was more content surrounding tribal/non-city-based malcontents that weren't hidden behind Red Storm rules. NPC tribes whose purpose was to be a nuisance, that the Byn could occasionally sortie for? Spiders are old hat, and gith tend to be far mor organized than a rag-tag bunch of misfits.
Quote from: Riev on May 13, 2020, 10:37:13 AM
With the closure of Tuluk, the Allanaki Mercenary Company has truly become just that. A military organization that isn't the Arm of the Dragon but otherwise is completely loyal to the city.
I would like if the T'zai Byn branched out a little more and attempted to become a little more independent. They hardly use their desert outpost anymore, and most of their contracts are to guard things.
Mercenaries, to me, should be willing to do anything for a little drinking coin, but there are far more 'defensive' contract than there are 'aggressive' ones.
What if there was more content surrounding tribal/non-city-based malcontents that weren't hidden behind Red Storm rules. NPC tribes whose purpose was to be a nuisance, that the Byn could occasionally sortie for? Spiders are old hat, and gith tend to be far mor organized than a rag-tag bunch of misfits.
I've always been of the mindset that the Byn should move to Luir's, and base out of it as a "Neutral" location.
One of my next characters is going to be an city elf in Morins.
I plan on starting my own city elf tribe there, and build an apartment complex. My idea is to have a city elf tribe that focuses on woodworking. We might even make wagons.
This should have a lot of conflict with the other merchant houses that focus on wood items, Kurac and Kadius. It will be fun.
Eventually, when my tribe is successful and we have a sorta base, I'm going to try and buy nobility from the newly opened Tuluk and be the first City Elf Nobles there. We'll be the best woodworking artist.
Quote from: mansa on May 13, 2020, 11:48:17 AM
One of my next characters is going to be an city elf in Morins.
I plan on starting my own city elf tribe there, and build an apartment complex. My idea is to have a city elf tribe that focuses on woodworking. We might even make wagons.
This should have a lot of conflict with the other merchant houses that focus on wood items, Kurac and Kadius. It will be fun.
Eventually, when my tribe is successful and we have a sorta base, I'm going to try and buy nobility from the newly opened Tuluk and be the first City Elf Nobles there. We'll be the best woodworking artist.
Piggybacking off this, staff wouldn't need to create a city elf tribe if they loosened up the rules on player-created trbies. The biggest killer for any player created tribe is that they can't (or almost can't) get new members applying in. This gives all player created tribes a ticking clock as characters either die off or leave for OOC reasons which inevitably ends the tribe.
I think this restriction needs to be loosened up. Maybe put a time on it that, if they make it past so many RL months they can begin accepting members from created character populations.
~ how to make a c-elf tribe, in three easy steps ~
Step one: Invent a new tribe. Not as a family roll call, but just pop into game and decide, "Hey, I'm going to pretend that I'm a Foo'kin Azole, so it seems like I'm part of a tribe."
Step two: Recruit other lonefoots into your scheme.
Step three: Recruit enough, and congrats, you're a "tribe". Without all the baggage of not being able to backstab your tribe mates.
I've been thinking, what if we limit House public noble representatives to 1 per House and use the 8-9 players we had to open each of the 9 Houses? It would certainly create a dynamic political scene where you have a House that does nearly everything.
Quote from: deskoft on May 13, 2020, 01:27:26 PM
I've been thinking, what if we limit House public noble representatives to 1 per House and use the 8-9 players we had to open each of the 9 Houses? It would certainly create a dynamic political scene where you have a House that does nearly everything.
This has been suggested a lot. Rather than consolidating, spreading it out. One Noble per clan, but a choice of clans, versus 3 nobles per clan and you can choose only my favorites.
I imagine nine open houses all vying for attention from staff would be a lot to handle.
Quote from: deskoft on May 13, 2020, 01:27:26 PM
I've been thinking, what if we limit House public noble representatives to 1 per House and use the 8-9 players we had to open each of the 9 Houses? It would certainly create a dynamic political scene where you have a House that does nearly everything.
While I like the idea of having more Houses open, I think we need more players for that, and I think that having more than one noble in each open House is kind of essential for the political landscape. The competing motivations of nobles inside the same House provides a lot of opportunities for plots and schemes that involve other players outside (and in) that House.
Quote from: Narf on May 13, 2020, 12:17:30 PM
Piggybacking off this, staff wouldn't need to create a city elf tribe if they loosened up the rules on player-created trbies. The biggest killer for any player created tribe is that they can't (or almost can't) get new members applying in. This gives all player created tribes a ticking clock as characters either die off or leave for OOC reasons which inevitably ends the tribe.
Yep, we all spent a ton of time debating this yesterday in Discord but you sum it up well here Narf.
WRT the insistence that it's easy to create a player made C-Elf tribe, one need only look at the results and the statistics. Spoiler: numbers indicate this is not an easy or common occurrence at all; most players have never interacted with a player made C-Elf tribe and never will. Spoiler: this is because a combination of docs and coded constraints make this, in fact, nearly impossible. Narf describes it briefly and well here.
Even if the documentation were altered to support more recruiting, there is just the question of why C-Elf is a special case somehow not deserving of an IG tribe. Every single argument about this can be easily refuted:
- Argument 1: City Elf tribes are broken because it gives them a place to hide after they commit crime.
Argument falls apart when you realize this also applies to The Guild.- Argument 2: City Elf tribes are broken because tribal loyalty makes them unfairly immune to infighting.
Argument falls apart when you realize this applies to any other tribe.- Argument 3: A codified tribe is not needed for C-Elves (Mansa's an N13's point) -- Excellently refuted by Narf here, also several other players poked holes in this well yesterday such as
RievSkeelz. The docs about "not recruiting outsiders" essentially kills most player made C-Elf tribes out the gate, in fact, by definition any player made C-Elf tribe would be in violation of the docs as they are today. I laughed at Mansa's example because it has two examples of breaking city elf documentation. And indeed anytime someone says "Make a C-Elf tribe that recruits," they are advocating for violating the docs (or having a snowflake unicorn concept).
- Argument 4: Staff do not want or do not have time to support this. This is the only constraint, staff were awesome and gave us an idea of just how much time they _do_ put in, for which we are thankful! This is the only "legitimate" argument at the table, Arguments 1-3 are disqualified due to logical fallacies therein.
So yeah, per my original brief post, there is a lot of contention around this, but it IS something Staff has spent development time on, and it hasn't been stated as being off the table.
I would like to see real city-elf tribes. Then again, I wouldn't, because I prefer in-game recruitment over just apping in. In game recruitment ensures that the PC is at least a halfway decent fit.
Desert elf tribes can 'adopt' and take in new members, so I don't see why city elf tribes would be any different.
Quote from: triste on May 13, 2020, 02:15:41 PM
Quote from: Narf on May 13, 2020, 12:17:30 PM
Piggybacking off this, staff wouldn't need to create a city elf tribe if they loosened up the rules on player-created trbies. The biggest killer for any player created tribe is that they can't (or almost can't) get new members applying in. This gives all player created tribes a ticking clock as characters either die off or leave for OOC reasons which inevitably ends the tribe.
Yep, we all spent a ton of time debating this yesterday in Discord but you sum it up well here Narf.
WRT the insistence that it's easy to create a player made C-Elf tribe, one need only look at the results and the statistics. Spoiler: numbers indicate this is not an easy or common occurrence at all; most players have never interacted with a player made C-Elf tribe and never will. Spoiler: this is because a combination of docs and coded constraints make this, in fact, nearly impossible. Narf describes it briefly and well here.
Even if the documentation were altered to support more recruiting, there is just the question of why C-Elf is a special case somehow not deserving of an IG tribe. Every single argument about this can be easily refuted:
- Argument 1: City Elf tribes are broken because it gives them a place to hide after they commit crime. Argument falls apart when you realize this also applies to The Guild.
- Argument 2: City Elf tribes are broken because tribal loyalty makes them unfairly immune to infighting. Argument falls apart when you realize this applies to any other tribe.
- Argument 3: A codified tribe is not needed for C-Elves (Mansa's an N13's point) -- Excellently refuted by Narf here, also several other players poked holes in this well yesterday such as RievSkeelz. The docs about "not recruiting outsiders" essentially kills most player made C-Elf tribes out the gate, in fact, by definition any player made C-Elf tribe would be in violation of the docs as they are today. I laughed at Mansa's example because it has two examples of breaking city elf documentation. And indeed anytime someone says "Make a C-Elf tribe that recruits," they are advocating for violating the docs (or having a snowflake unicorn concept).
- Argument 4: Staff do not want or do not have time to support this. This is the only constraint, staff were awesome and gave us an idea of just how much time they _do_ put in, for which we are thankful! This is the only "legitimate" argument at the table, Arguments 1-3 are disqualified due to logical fallacies therein.
So yeah, per my original brief post, there is a lot of contention around this, but it IS something Staff has spent development time on, and it hasn't been stated as being off the table.
There is a whole section in city elf roleplay about tests of loyalty, and bringing people to be companions and earning trust.
http://armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elf%20Roleplay
QuoteElven Tests of Loyalty:
Elves highly distrust anyone who is not part of their immediate family, or of their tribe, who has not been tested severely to earn their trust. Elves will go to great lengths to contrive and execute these tests, even to the point of putting their own lives at risk. Before an elf takes it upon themself to test everyone in sight, it should be kept in mind that an elf would only really go to the trouble of testing someone if they are going to be acting as a companion. A companion is someone that an elf may gain an advantage from being with. For example: you are a tribeless city elf who was born and raised in the labyrinth of Allanak, and it is far safer to run with a friend. Because they are already provided with companions in the form of family, tribal elves and those with a small grouping that is their family will find less reason to make companions out of outsiders. Tribeless elves, armed with their overwhelming distrust for anyone but themselves, will likely find much reason to apply tests to determine those that are loyal, and those that are not.
Most elves will want a potential companion to pass a number of tests of increasing risk to the tester before they will trust someone.
I don't think that an elf who recruits someone who has 'passed the loyalty tests', is breaking the intended roleplay documents.
C-Elf tribe! But also --
outfits.
An outfit command would be amazing. Remove everything in the outfit with one command after setting it up. Put on an outfit with the command as well, from a container or the room. Changing clothes into armor and back takes forever, which is why with most characters I've always just worn armor all the time instead of spending money on things they might like.
That might be more quality of life, but I thought it fit into the creation part of this thread. If not, my apologies.
Quote from: triste on May 13, 2020, 02:15:41 PM
- Argument 2: City Elf tribes are broken because tribal loyalty makes them unfairly immune to infighting. Argument falls apart when you realize this applies to any other tribe.
The dedicated raider tribes are no longer playable. Arguably the most successful raider tribe (the Red Fangs) was completely slaughtered, I think for OOC reasons as much as IC reasons.
Nobody wants to see a c-elf tribe open more than me, and you won't find many players on the server who have done more in-game to try to make it happen. That said, there's a fundamental problem with "criminal" tribes that has to be solved. My solution is the 'pseudo-tribe'. They pretend to be a tribe, they recruit lonefoots, and they do crime stuff. But they're not really a tribe, and it would be justifiable RP for an elf to betray the organization. The best thing about this you don't require staff's permission to start a pseudo-tribe. It's just a street gang, so just do it.
If you don't think that a psuedo-tribe can have a big impact or last a good long while -- find out IC. The short answer is, you're wrong.
As an alternative solution, allow elves in the Guild. I don't know how to modify the kayfabe to make it happen, but from a playability perspective, it makes a lot of sense.
Quote from: number13 on May 13, 2020, 02:58:25 PM
Quote from: triste on May 13, 2020, 02:15:41 PM
- Argument 2: City Elf tribes are broken because tribal loyalty makes them unfairly immune to infighting. Argument falls apart when you realize this applies to any other tribe.
The dedicated raider tribes are no longer playable. Arguably the most successful raider tribe (the Red Fangs) was completely slaughtered, I think for OOC reasons as much as IC reasons.
Nobody wants to see a c-elf tribe open more than me, and you won't find many players on the server who have done more in-game to try to make it happen. That said, there's a fundamental problem with "criminal" tribes that has to be solved. My solution is the 'pseudo-tribe'. They pretend to be a tribe, they recruit lonefoots, and they do crime stuff. But they're not really a tribe, and it would be justifiable RP for an elf to betray the organization. The best thing about this you don't require staff's permission to start a pseudo-tribe. It's just a street gang, so just do it.
If you don't think that a psuedo-tribe can have a big impact or last a good long while -- find out IC. The short answer is, you're wrong.
As an alternative solution, allow elves in the Guild. I don't know how to modify the kayfabe to make it happen, but from a playability perspective, it makes a lot of sense.
Just the fact that we're praising "psuedo" [sic] anything here proves my point that achieving what is set out in the documents is very difficult. And that, as many people have identified, is a problem.
Yes, I am aware of the documentation mansa linked, but the reality of how it plays out is almost always as Narf describes. I think I've seen an elf adopted into a tribe once, and many more than that fail. This isn't the fault of the players -- they were following those docs, which indicate tedium and test after test. The result -- tribes dying out, etc. The result -- well the result that is PLAIN and in front of everyone's face right now -- absolutely 0 playable C-Elf tribes and one "psuedo-tribe" [sic].
And both of you are continuing to dodge the crux of the argument here which several other players are now excited and exclaiming (!) about: Why
not have staff supported C-Elf tribes?
[why not both girl dot jif]
It's much easier to argue for just having a straight forward solution, a solution we had in the past, and a solution [multiple] human and [multiple] d-elf tribes enjoy, but for some [still to this point
unjustified] reason c-elfs do not have this same beneficial, fun scenario of an in game tribe. For some [still to this point
unjustified] reason, c-elfs cannot enjoy things like tribal docs, tribal crafts, etc. Sure. Maybe by definition we do not
need a C-Elf tribes, but many players see the obvious benefits to having one in game and want it.
If you want to enumerate the "Pros and Cons" of not having a staff supported C-Elf tribe, I will gladly enumerate why it's beneficial to have them, and this itemization will speak for itself.
Pros to having a City Elf tribe with staff/supported support like any other tribe:
- This option in no way precludes anyone from starting a player made tribe, indeed, could be the result of a player made tribe given staff support. Therefore this is in net, a feature addition and not a subtraction in any form [True any clan]
- This fills a niche currently completely unoccupied since we have no open C-Elf tribes [UNIQUE to this clan]
- This would be a good opportunity for new players as C-Elves are 0 karma, and indeed in the past C-Elf tribes are often great introductions to black market roleplay [UNIQUE to this clan]
- Opens up tribe locked craft, to which C-Elves have very limited access due to hiring policies of other clans [UNIQUE to this clan, False for player-made psuedo-tribes as proposed]
- Opens up rich, living documentation, lexicon. Documentation is beneficial as it allows player character contributions to endure for generations [True of any clan, False for player-made psuedo-tribes as proposed]
- Fully conforms to the docs, and makes the docs more real for players. The key strength of an elf in this setting is their tribe, and adding a supported C-Elf tribe would grant a more enriching experience, in effect fixing what is documented but broken an inaccessible IG [UNIQUE to this clan/role]
Cons:
- Staff resources / time spent to develop [True any clan]
- Potential of development effort flopping if clan is not well populated [True any clan]
- Possible metagaming, AKA hiding from crimes [True any clan]
- Players might not get to seed the initial idea [True any clan]
So here we see several unique benefits to adding a C-Elf tribe; all of the cons listed are true of any clan. No one has identified anything uniquely bad about this idea. Therefore, in net it's a boon.
There is a process set up that players can go through to get their own clams in game:
Stage 1 - Create a Request
(Must be selling a good or service.
Must be relying on/using PCs as well as NPCs to sell to
Need to let us know intending to progress to next level, so we can keep an eye on it
Contact leaders in game if available)
Do this for 1 year in-game, or approximately 45 RL days, then onto...
Stage 2 - "Playerspace Rented"
(Get a warehouse type room, with a key)
Do this for 2 years in game, or approximately 90 RL days after getting to stage 2, then onto...
Stage 3 - "NPCs owned"
(Get an NPC guard / hawker / shopkeep)
Do this for 5 years in game, or approximately 225 RL days after getting to stage 3, then onto...
Stage 4 - "Clam setup"
(Get a clam tag, IC board, start getting a compound, custom crafts under clam name.)
Do this for 5 years in game, or approximately 225 RL days after getting to stage 4... then onto
Stage 5 - "Clam Structure Implemented"
(Get a clam forum on the GDB, published clam documents, help files on website, etc)
Quote from: mansa on May 13, 2020, 03:55:28 PM
There is a process set up that players can go through to get their own clams in game:
Stage 1 - Create a Request
(Must be selling a good or service.
Must be relying on/using PCs as well as NPCs to sell to
Need to let us know intending to progress to next level, so we can keep an eye on it
Contact leaders in game if available)
Do this for 1 year in-game, or approximately 45 RL days, then onto...
Stage 2 - "Playerspace Rented"
(Get a warehouse type room, with a key)
Do this for 2 years in game, or approximately 90 RL days after getting to stage 2, then onto...
Stage 3 - "NPCs owned"
(Get an NPC guard / hawker / shopkeep)
Do this for 5 years in game, or approximately 225 RL days after getting to stage 3, then onto...
Stage 4 - "Clam setup"
(Get a clam tag, IC board, start getting a compound, custom crafts under clam name.)
Do this for 5 years in game, or approximately 225 RL days after getting to stage 4... then onto
Stage 5 - "Clam Structure Implemented"
(Get a clam forum on the GDB, published clam documents, help files on website, etc)
Again:
I already know all of this. Many of us knows this.
Yes no one has achieved this for C-Elves for years for reasons multiple posters here have identified. Please read their comments.
And finally, again:
Nothing about what I am proposing precludes or limits what you are. Anyone is feel free to take this script and try, good luck and thanks for your efforts. When you succeed, you will be rewarded with what I am asking for.
Or we can stop waiting multiple real life years for this Elven Neo Chosen One and fix what has been broken and left unaddressed more directly.
Hey, can you guys make a new celf thread if that's all this is going to be? It seems like there's enough posts for that! I love the ideas, I'm just afraid everyone else's stuff not about this main argument is going to get lost.
It's kind of a crazy thread -- We have two conversations going right now, and by design more are going to be added. If anything the C-Elf conversation started first and the other conversation interrupted it, but I am cool with that because that is kind of... the nature of this thread so far!
Besides, I am pretty sure the C-Elf conversation is over: What I want [and other people want] does not preclude what the critics want, so literally we can all have what we want. Debate over.
Thanks Staff for setting up this thread.
One of my next characters I want to apply for is going to be a special application for a humanoid sewer rat.
I'm going to ask to have some sort of ability to see in the dark, and to be able to climb, but also be unable to wear pants because of the rat tail.
I'm going to create a nest area in the deep tunnels of Allanak, and scare the shit out of Jal employees. I'll creep around down there, and eventually pop up to the surface dwellers and sell them the rare goods only the rat people can give them.
Also, I think I would play that I hate humans but like elves.
I think that would be something cool to try.
Quote from: mansa on May 13, 2020, 04:12:51 PM
One of my next characters I want to apply for is going to be a special application for a humanoid sewer rat.
I'm going to ask to have some sort of ability to see in the dark, and to be able to climb, but also be unable to wear pants because of the rat tail.
I'm going to create a nest area in the deep tunnels of Allanak, and scare the shit out of Jal employees. I'll creep around down there, and eventually pop up to the surface dwellers and sell them the rare goods only the rat people can give them.
Also, I think I would play that I hate humans but like elves.
I think that would be something cool to try.
You've talked about this rat person idea for about a year. If you repeatedly and publicly talk about an idea, are you allowed to play it?
If you aren't allowed to play it because you keep talking about it, is someone ever going to steal this idea? Please, someone do, please make mansa's dreams come true!
Removed. Attempt something productive to contribute.
Rather not need to clean out needless/salty posts while trying to get something productive done here with all of you and/or end up in a thread lock.
- City Elf Tribe
- More Noble Houses open.
- Pclan reworking (in a round about way)
- Some sort of outfit/clothing QoL (code, but it was read/noted)
What else?
I'll take the opportunity to ask, because it's something I really want.
Full Class mages alongside sub-class mages as options, maybe with a karma cost equal to the highest karma cost sub-class. 3 for whira/krath/drov, 2 for viv/ruk
Does reinstating the GMH hunter branches count as 'new'?
More important than opening and closing clans, or making X, Y, Z role available/unavailable, I think it might be fun to introduce a LARP-ish structured narrative to the game. Importantly, the narrative would have a metagame scoring that is shared with the community at the end of a chapter.
For example, let's say there's Coconuts of Quendor scattered all over the Known, in a couple dozen various odd locations. Some of the coconuts could be placed in very difficult locations to reach, like islands out on the Silt Sea, or dangerous monster-filled anti-magic caverns deep underground.
Finding the coconuts is one problem. Doing anything with them is more complicated. It might require a mini-RPT to actually fetch up a coconut.
Each clan/tribe would be given a directive related to the coconuts, and earn points for fulfilling their obligations.
1) The coconuts are sacred. Make sure they stay protected and undisturbed in their original locations, so that they'll sprout up into palm trees.
2) The coconuts are dangerous. Find and destroy as many coconuts as possible.
3) The coconuts are valuable. Gather up as many coconuts as possible, and once they are in your possession, keep them safe.
4) Who gives a shit about coconuts? Earn as much obsidian as you can helping out other clans with their coconut-related activities.
There could also be secondary goals, for which the clan earns less points. For example, a d-elf tribe might earn points for palm trees on their own turf, and have some incentive to steal coconuts from other places.
After a period of time, the narrative ends. Points are tallied, and broadcast OOCly to the community. There's a narrative result determined by storytellers, which feeds into the next chapter.
(In case it's not clear, coconuts are a stand-in for a McGuffin. It could be iron scattered around by a meteorite, or strange elemental crystals growing out of the sands, or...some sort of gross alien coconuts that boiled from unknown origin.)
Quote from: Riev on May 13, 2020, 01:51:38 PM
Quote from: deskoft on May 13, 2020, 01:27:26 PM
I've been thinking, what if we limit House public noble representatives to 1 per House and use the 8-9 players we had to open each of the 9 Houses? It would certainly create a dynamic political scene where you have a House that does nearly everything.
This has been suggested a lot. Rather than consolidating, spreading it out. One Noble per clan, but a choice of clans, versus 3 nobles per clan and you can choose only my favorites.
I imagine nine open houses all vying for attention from staff would be a lot to handle.
Doesn't change the fact that most noble houses have jack-all to actually do. Give the ones we have open now more to do before we further bloat the top-heavy structure of Allanak.
Suggestion: De-Virtualization of Noble House Activities*Let the Nobles have actual jobs that require actual PCs to do, so that they can hire on crews (both in-house or otherwise) and accomplish those tasks. Try and limit the amount of "work" that needs to be done via the request tool, and get as much in to the actual game. A noble that's hired on 6 workers to see their pet project done is adding at least 3x more play-ability than one noble who just hires an aide, then sits around waiting until they need to hire an assassin to kill a Merchant who hasn't delivered an order for six RL months.
What I'd like to see is more of the "virtual work" of Houses being brought in to the game world, so that PCs can take over from VNPCs. The Amber Wyverns are a historical example. They were a PC crew that belonged to House Borsail, and were charged with bringing in wild animals for the Arena. They even managed to do this somewhat successfully, although my impression was that they were fighting with code as much as it was working for them. If it was easier to capture and haul (N)PCs across the Known, I could see a clan like the Wyverns (or regular bounty hunters) being more successful. Let PCs do their jobs without having to have a six-week back-and-forth planning session in the request tool. Things like better subduing and confinement code, or even just more varied forage rooms in certain-places could go a ways towards providing PCs ways to play out their Houses better.
Suggestion: Remove CrimcodeSpeaking of giving people more things to do: remove crimcode. Give the Byn more jobs to do in town, give soldier and House servant PCs more of a point for existing, increase the turn-over of sponsored roles. Make Allanak more chaotic so we have something more to react against.
*Edit to add: This can really go for any clan, not just the Noble Houses. They just came to mind first based on the discussion.
Quote from: Pretentious on May 13, 2020, 06:24:12 PM
Does reinstating the GMH hunter branches count as 'new'?
+1000000 upvotes. See recent discussion in http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55629.0.html
Also upvotes to Skeelz comments related to this on opening more common jobs.
More ways to codedly lose a conflict without dieing.
Example 1: Give templars the ability to magically (or physically) mark a character as a pariah. This mark is either attached to a character's wear location or added to their main description. PCs can see it, and NPCs that would care about such a thing won't deal with the player. A mark can be removed by any figure of sufficient authority.
Example 2: Give high ranking criminal figures the ability to mark a character for harrassment. NPC criminals will attempt to steal from them, either through pickpocketing or knocking them out and taking their things. Merchants aligned with the criminals won't deal with the character, and may have their guards attack them.
Example 3: Codedly allow PCs to bribe guards to forgive violent crimes as long as they're not murder. The character won't become wanted (or loses wanted status) for one crime as long as the target lives through it. This could be set up in advance (command example: bribe guard Talia: Now targeting Talia will not create a wanted status until Talia dies).
Brands and/or tattoos for criminals would be good, Narf. I think Luirs has something similar already? Don't quote me on that. Maybe for Allanak, they could be brands for extra southern brutality.
I know the topic of slave characters is kind of contentious, since they were tried and removed due to how restrictive they were. That, and I didn't actually play while they were in use, so I can't argue for or against that sentiment. But I had an idea that I think would make the concept both work, and also allow House Borsail to actually participate in its main source of income. Introduce a labor camp (i.e. the obsidian mines that Allanak is said to have) that a variety of characters could be sent to. Criminals, prisoners of war, hapless grebbers/tribals. Depending on the circumstances they could serve different sentences (or life, and just have some opportunity to escape), and there would be opportunities for prison gangs to form and the AoD/Borsail to regulate the place. One of the main complaints that it looked like arose for slave chars prior to their removal was that slaves would be starved for interaction if their master's weren't on, in a labor camp sort of system this'd be alleviated by having other slaves to interact with. And of course, a player could just choose to store as a virtual prisoner, if they don't want to play such a scenario (as is currently the case). There could be quotas for obsidian mined, weighed in stones, and bonuses for the slaver Houses based on performance/number of slaves provided.
Of course, it's probably not the easiest undertaking (I have no clue as to what would go into making something like that), but one of the main complaints I see buzzing around is that Borsail's (like other clans) primary function isn't really factored into real gameplay anymore.
I'd personally like to see a revamp of the availability of "plant fibers" shift from just one plant, to multiple plants across the Known. Making sandcloth by hand for self-sufficiency is sort of painful as it stands due to the singular sourced nature of the components.
Raised availability for cotton... It's practically impossible to obtain in anything more than a singular length for every few days.
More "automated job" style jobs for the sake of variety in the Vrun Driath and improvements to ones that already exist, like clearing "weeds" in Yaroch in return for flour/money. Working for pay in the obsidian mines, adding "clay patch" items to New Menos, wrangling chalton in the chalton ranch, messing around with the barakhan horde in the chalton ranch.
So Sorcerors.
I played one quite a few years ago who went to the end of one of the spell path progressions, this was when the paths were not that old. As soon as he died (so it seemed) more spells were added, but what would have been great was the ability to learn other paths.
How they would do this? Who knows. Have to learn/kill/steal the soul of another sorceror of a different path. I always think back to Heroes with the stealing of powers when one died. This could be implemented for all I know, but from my knowledge, would be very nice.
In fact, could extend it to elementalists. Can actually learn the other aspects through some method (death preferable). Maybe it's not coded but staff can set up. Would give max magickers something to keep working towards and add distrust.
Very nice and would lead back to the old days (for us old players) who remember the full socs and elementalists.
- Olafson
I've only run into them a couple times but the random animal dens are cool.
I would like to see this code expanded to create more emergent content for military types and explorers to try and seek out. Random ruins, random bandit camps, random tombs, random sackable villages for the PC raiders, the rare not-quite-entirely depleted iron vein. Lot of new room assets to make, I guess, but it would bring back the feeling of surprise and adventure.
+1 to the idea of clear-cut 'prestige' progression for magic classes. Maybe have a prestige progression option for every class. Like if you fullbranch your PC and max every spell or every craft or fullmaster a weapon, you can select an otherwise unobtainable ability. I suppose these could be RP goals instead of code goals, but I think the more things are automated the less people cry bullshit and favoritism.
An ability to make herbs into dyes would be nice, they already have colored tints. Right now there is no organic way to source many of them except through shops. This isn't really anything that is desperately needed but it seems a rational expansion on existing craft system architecture and would give a use for some of those less-desirable herbs.
While many cry for fewer high magic elements, I would like to see these generally made more accessible. Not in the hands of NPCs, but in the hands of players. I'd like to see potions and scrolls and staves and all kinds of buggy nonsense that has been put under the rug come back. A handful of niche expensive anti-magic charms or tools usable by mundanes only would be cool--I have ideas for these but describing what they would act against and how would be spoilers for magic code.
I would like to see Tuluk opened but not actively staffed with player orgs and apartments. Just having it as a visible location to trade in, perhaps with new added dangers for foreigners in certain districts, would be nice.
This is obviously a long shot but something I've wanted for years but would require just a ton of work.
I want the silt sea expanded along the outside of the Known and have it stop near Luirs or some such thing. It'd immediately give another purpose to skimming and more options for travel. Skimmers right now just feel mostly pointless except for the occasional niche need and I'd love to see them have some utility.
I am not for city elf tribes. I don't feel people are responsible enough or understand the tribe mentality behind elven roleplay - from former interactions with city elf playermade tribes. It never changes. Its borderline trolling. Most take a playermade celf tribe as an excuse to do boldly suicidal things, that bring great threat to the tribe and to themselves, and that just doesn't make sense in an elven mindset.
Unless they have handicaps. Obvious dos and donts, that will get you exiled/murdered by your own tribe and preferably an npc animation.
Bring back the Kuraci Fist!
Quote from: th3kaiser on May 14, 2020, 09:11:19 AM
This is obviously a long shot but something I've wanted for years but would require just a ton of work.
I want the silt sea expanded along the outside of the Known and have it stop near Luirs or some such thing. It'd immediately give another purpose to skimming and more options for travel. Skimmers right now just feel mostly pointless except for the occasional niche need and I'd love to see them have some utility.
I love it whenever this idea comes up. It's tricky thinking about where we might stick it given the geography, but any expansion of the silt sea that adds utility as you say -- or maybe even makes the silt-sea
necessary as the only source of some materials -- would be great.
I love the creativity people have had around "fishing on the shore" for silt horrors, but it's one of those recent practices that further put a nail in the coffin for anyone wanting or
needing to silt skim.
Expansion of the silt sea in the way you describe might also allow for a good entry-point for skimming. We all comment on how often fatal silt skimming is, and how this also contributes to people not utilizing it. New content like this might allow for an adjustment of the very steep "starting to silt skim" curve, AKA an easier to raft down silt river leading to the silt sea. That said, I am fine if you are proposing the new silt areas would be equally fatal and vast.
I've played maybe four some years, on and off over a span of ten years, and I've never once "had" to ride a silt skimmer, so my characters never have. I literally haven't seen a skimmer in use in game, and it's ironic that the first time I
have seen and interacted with a silt skimmer was in a MUD based of Armageddon and not Armageddon itself.
I've absolutely used skimmers but I've had to purposefully make PCs with the intention of buying a skimmer just to explore. I've gone through most of the current iteration (as of a few years ago) of the silt sea and while it's super neat, it's not a necessary or particularly profitable place to go. And I love the idea of Stormers having the ability to just sail up to a northerly location for trade/pillaging. Silt Vikings FTW.
First off let me begin by saying I love these types of threads. Over the years there have been many ideas popping up in the forum,and many of them do get implemented. Everything from "give my warrior backstab" to many other smaller ideas and asks.
Elf Tribes and indie clans
I think if you play an elf in any of the main locations there are options now for you to join a clan. Playing in these in some of these clans as c-elves have draw backs but its part of the drawbacks of being an elf. It is good enough, but if anything I believe that indie groups as a whole need much more support then they currently get and some things should be more streamlined like being able to rent out compounds.
It used to be much easier to be an indie or part of an indie group in Tuluk, you could also be a excellent grebber/hunter and have access to the political content in that city. I think some of that needs to be analyzed to see what can be learned from it and try to encourage it more.
I feel this is important, because indie clans rise and decline, all while bringing a breathe of fresh air and content to the game.
Clan compounds and apartments
On the subject of clans, I believe that some of the compounds are way too safe, conversely apartments are still deathtraps. I believe clans should provide safe storage, a rent locker system should be implemented, with a guard handing out the key to rented out lockers. Of course, sleeping areas should be well patrolled as well. However, I would make climbing out of the compound easily accomplished.
Having spies, competitors, thieves and even assassins finding ways into their 'safe' compound should be a concern of all clans.
With apartments, doors should lock only from the outside and when an apartment door closes, it should lock automatically. If someone flees with in the apartment in the direction of the door, the door should open letting the person run out.
These changes would encourage players to use these areas in new creative ways.
Tuluk and Luirs
City of Tuluk should not re-open. That said they should bring Tuluk back by adding a couple tuluki nobles in Luirs or even having Tuluk nobles fleeing from the city take over luirs.
Luirs is still too closely tied with Allanak, since merchant houses cannot go against their clients the allanak nobility. If you fuck up in either area you only have Redstorm to move into. Additionally, this would put merchant houses back into a tight rope balancing the interests of themselves with their two large clients tuluk and luirs.
Underground Caverns, passageways and caves
I would like to see a larger network of underground caverns and passages way under allanak's sewers that would extend all the way to redstorm. There should be reason for grebbers, hunters and explorers to risk their life to go there. There should be no water or light (basically you can visit but you can't stay). The passage ways would not be suitable for mounts. This would be wilderness rooms but stamina costs should be 0-1 or 2 at the most).
Opening up an area like this to be shared between redstorm and Allanak players would be wonderful and just be a source of amazing player and staff content generation.
To be honest, I love the idea of a competitor for Allanak. I'd like to see that, as I think a lot of people would.
However, just listening to everyone talk about Tuluk and hearing the differences between each player about how it was, and seeing how much exploded just now from re-opening a completely changed small tribal group, I think Tuluk has to stay dead. I wouldn't wish staffing a re-opened Tuluk on my worst enemy.
So, something else. Someone takes over Tuluk. A new Sorcerer King. A new city, not even Tuluk, or a massive camp of invading savages led by a sorcerer-King a la the Legion in Fallout. Something that gives the GMH leverage to play off one another, and gives nobles a direct enemy, and gives military companies a direct enemy, and gives raiders a place to flee or people to play off one another, two cities that can both hire mercenaries against one another.
I just think Allanak needs a real, constant enemy for balance, whether mostly virtual or not. And I also think Tuluk as-is should get wiped off the map in the process.
So I want to speak on the Hunter Branches as I was apart of it a bit at the time of the removal. As for what Staff are doing now about it, I have no say nor opinion on it, but I do have some suggestions.
Hunter Branches of the GMHs in an economical sense to the Houses were to expensive. Paying someone a consistent rate month after month, and they brought in what you needed... sounds great and all, but let me tell you from my experience in those clans how it worked out. I've played as an Agent and Merchant, and have some intimate relations when it comes to the GMHs. So what happens is you have a crew of hunters that go out and hunt, it was great... but then you get item bloat, so much junk and unneeded items that it became a chore to handle and maintain. As a crafter, I HATED going into a craft hall and digging through the absolute mountains of materials... it was even worse if it wasn't organized. Then you'd tell the hunters to stop hunting... they'd get bored, get themselves killed... then you'd have to hire more.
As for leader roles, to operated a GMH clan at the time of hunting divisions, there was the Sponsored Hunter leader, then Agent & Merchant. So three sponsored roles. Normally there was need for a second leadership position for the Hunters, so the hunter leader would try to find one. (Oh note, I've played a sponsored role hunter leader also.) So we have four potential leadership positions there, then add in the senior crafter... we're talking some leadership bloat here.
Next we have all those hunters, we're talking normally 4-5 hunters per clan, normally this number would get up to 6-8, so in the top days of this, that is 24 hunters between the three GMH clans that would use hunters. No GMH house needs that many hunters, but then if we cut down on the number of hunters per clan, we get 3-4 per clan. New hunters would go out on their own because not everyone is on their play times, then they would end up dead. Rinse repeat, find new hunters.
So economically, it more feasible for the GMHs to buy only the materials they need directly from hunters, but from what I understand, it can sometimes be hard to find those hunters. If they GMHs get only the materials they need, they are happy. Hunters get paid for what they bring in, they are happy. So we really have two problems here, GMHs need hunters, but they don't need them in clan... but having them in clan makes it more convenient, though it adds bloat to the clan.
Here is my suggestion... Hunter Clan in Luir's. A singular sponsored role hunting clan, similar to the Byn in a way. I could see the GHMs coming together to sponsor a Hunter Clan of sorts. This could be a great Newbie entry clan also, just also like the Byn. I think the issue is that this SHOULD have come up already with the Player Clans, but I don't think the current Player Clans rules allowed for it to come to become a fully sponsored Clan by Staff as easily as it should.
Having this Hunter Clan they could easily sell goods to each of the GMHs, maybe one GMH will pay a bit more to get one material that is commonly used by many. Each of the GMHs don't need their own hunting division, what they need is a group of reliable hunters they can buy from. A sponsored clan make it more reliable and can have documentation and rules to go along with it.
I don't know, I'm just spitting this idea because I think it is very fitting for the world. Now that I think on it, it would have been likely a better idea for the GMHs back in the day, but the Player Clan Rules came out also... so I'm sure the intention was to see this come out of the player clans, rather than created by Staff.
Once again, this is my own thoughts, my own opinions. I appreciate any constructive criticism.
Quote from: LindseyBalboa on May 14, 2020, 02:00:32 PM
So, something else. Someone takes over Tuluk. A new Sorcerer King. A new city, not even Tuluk, or a massive camp of invading savages led by a sorcerer-King a la the Legion in Fallout. Something that gives the GMH leverage to play off one another, and gives nobles a direct enemy, and gives military companies a direct enemy, and gives raiders a place to flee or people to play off one another, two cities that can both hire mercenaries against one another.
I really like the idea of an invading Empire from outside the Known. Their camp could be small, but their support and culture huge...they could have virtual city-states back home supplying them. But maybe Allanak/Tuluk have some sort of advantage that allows them to resist the endlessly surging invaders...like maybe they don't have any elementalists in that corner of the world.
GMHs would have to decide whether they want the trade routes with the invading empire, or to support the current regime, or to play both sides.
To play my broken record again -- I vastly prefer strong narrative direction to opening clan X, Y, Z. I don't see opening clans as adding much of anything to the play experience, unless that opening coincides with a story event that everyone can participate in.
Not clan related but going to throw it in here anyway.
More things to smoke that aren't spice. I often feel like my characters would be chain smokers but not in a spice kind of way, so preferably something casual and available, akin to tobacco.
Like Jherweed menthol cigarettes.
I'm going to suggest, once again, the ability to select your subclass AFTER chargen. ;D
This way, you can start getting involved into roleplay and make more of a selection based on what's happening instead of a predetermined path.
Quote from: SodaDogARM on May 14, 2020, 03:29:39 PM
Not clan related but going to throw it in here anyway.
More things to smoke that aren't spice. I often feel like my characters would be chain smokers but not in a spice kind of way, so preferably something casual and available, akin to tobacco.
Like Jherweed menthol cigarettes.
#LegalizeKrentakh
It's easy to think that removing crimcode would be a good idea, but in my mind, it would destabilize a lot of thing, from Templar bribes (which is the leading way they make coins) to the ratio of murders that happen. 5 guys can't patrol a city that realistically is patrolled heavily.
Quote from: SodaDogARM on May 14, 2020, 03:29:39 PM
Not clan related but going to throw it in here anyway.
More things to smoke that aren't spice. I often feel like my characters would be chain smokers but not in a spice kind of way, so preferably something casual and available, akin to tobacco.
Like Jherweed menthol cigarettes.
Attempted that as a Kuraci agent. Did all the research, and I have a file somewhere with all the tested affects of the various plants. It fizzled out, but I can't recall if it's because we didn't have the crafter or staff said no can do, but I do recall that Nyr did not want cigars in the game. Too anachronistic, I think was what he said.
Quote from: mansa on May 13, 2020, 03:55:28 PM
There is a process set up that players can go through to get their own clams
YES I LOVE CLAMS
It's a lot of work but also I think a skilled/determined rper could definitely pull it off.
I really like the idea about outfits. I know in another MUD there are clothing dummies you can dress up and then swap outfits with
Quote from: th3kaiser on May 14, 2020, 11:45:34 AM
I've absolutely used skimmers but I've had to purposefully make PCs with the intention of buying a skimmer just to explore. I've gone through most of the current iteration (as of a few years ago) of the silt sea and while it's super neat, it's not a necessary or particularly profitable place to go.
This makes me sad.
This game was never about exploration but still...
It would be cool if there were
unique resources in areas such as this. Resources as valuable as tree/logs are that would generate interest to forming crews to go make profit from this potentially dangerous excursions. Valuable enough that GMHs are really willing to sit down and negotiate prices.
Its a bit of a code change but increasing how long the effects of spice last to make it more tempting for players to use.
There being an actual player demand for spice with in the game would just create tons of fun all by itself.
Should've asked this sooner. Do you all want return commentary on ideas as I'm able, or just wait X time until the thread winds down for ease of read?
IE:
Idea X may be problematic because XYZ.
Idea Y already exists in some fashion.
Idea Z is something we're working/discussing/can potentially do.
I say just give a comment now, and we can build / reiterate the thread in a nicer format later.
Quote from: Shabago on May 14, 2020, 06:23:18 PM
Should've asked this sooner. Do you all want return commentary on ideas as I'm able, or just wait X time until the thread winds down for ease of read?
IE:
Idea X may be problematic because XYZ.
Idea Y already exists in some fashion.
Idea Z is something we're working/discussing/can potentially do.
I would love commentary on my ideas. As much of a headache as it might seem at the outset though, I think it would be wise to put such commentary in another thread to keep this one focused on the brainstorming/polling process.
I know I'm desperately curious why no one has taken up the mantle of a city elf tribe after so many years. Is it just lack of interest? (Don't take the bait and answer this in this thread though or you'll get it inundated).
+1 more silt sea swag/action
Quote from: Narf on May 14, 2020, 06:31:05 PM
I know I'm desperately curious why no one has taken up the mantle of a city elf tribe after so many years. Is it just lack of interest? (Don't take the bait and answer this in this thread though or you'll get it inundated).
If you mean players, it has been tried, multiple times.
If you mean staff, the answer that's been given over and over is, it's really, really hard to get it right, and even a c-elf clan with great documentation (like the Bejeweled Hand) eventually turns sour. (This also extends to d-elf tribes with raiding bents.)
Also, I'm easily baited.
Again there are already groups/clans that players can join in every major location if the play an elf.
So if people are asking for an city elf tribe, they aren't just looking for a group to join as they could join the byn and all the clan benefits,etc,etc. The benefit of an elf tribe is of course their mentality would make them very loyal to each other. Not having to worry about your comrade backstabbing you is really boon.
But what i can find is what people feel the purpose of new city elf tribe would be:
- What purpose so they can be relevant and fun. another merchant group?
- How do you make sure they don't become overpowered and terrorize the players in the city?
- If you make the elves within the tribe worried about farting without potentially causing the downfall of the clan, just goes back to the original question of how do you even make this fun
I would love to read these ideas. Not saying this isn't possible, but other than 'i want an elf tribe' i haven't heard many ideas to how to actually integrate one into place like Allanak without ruining it for every one else that plays there. There was something that seem very forced with the bejeweled hand that i could never quite put my finger on. Even if I wanted to see a group like that return(which i don't), I am not sure how they would fit into Allanak (south-side, staff have players covered north-side).
Just joining in to say: the benefit of a c-elf tribe is to experience the roleplay of thematic elf tribes using the documentation put forth. It's a whole different game when a tribe is full and active. It's much different than playing a human in a clan, and elves are geared toward being in a tribe.
Quote from: LindseyBalboa on May 14, 2020, 10:11:09 PM
Just joining in to say: the benefit of a c-elf tribe is to experience the roleplay of thematic elf tribes using the documentation put forth. It's a whole different game when a tribe is full and active. It's much different than playing a human in a clan, and elves are geared toward being in a tribe.
What will this tribe of elves do in the city, and how is the this 'experience' fit into allanak? How do you expect the experience to be different then the current elf only city based clan in the game right now?
I am not bashing the idea of a city elf tribe, but I would like to hear more of the ideas of how to actually make it work especially in contrast to what is current already being offered for c-elves.
Quote from: LindseyBalboa on May 14, 2020, 10:11:09 PM
Just joining in to say: the benefit of a c-elf tribe is to experience the roleplay of thematic elf tribes using the documentation put forth. It's a whole different game absolute stupid fun when a tribe is full and active. It's much different than playing a human in a clan, and elves are geared toward being in a tribe.
ftfy.
Please please please bring back full class mages.
Quote from: Pew Pew on May 15, 2020, 08:56:46 AM
Please please please bring back full class mages.
+1
Edit, just to add: Also bring back [other redacted awesome magick things that cannot be publicly discussed but were once open and now are not so far as I know :o]
One thing I'd really love to see is an NPC in every playable city/settlement (Allanak/Luir's/Red Storm/Morins) that just buys every raw material (shell/hide/bone/stone/meat/herbs/etc) really cheaply. Like 1-2 sid per item cheaply, without limit on the items. To prevent abuse, it could be capped at something like 30 sid per character per IC day. It'd allow characters to sell off things they accumulate for a pittance. It'd be way more profitable to sell things to the shops like normal, or to other PCs, but it would smooth off some rough edges on immersion when it comes to hunters/grebbers leaving things behind because they know they'd be unable to sell them even if they really should be able to pass them off cheaply.
The items sold to this NPC could be available to buy at normal prices for a short time - maybe an IC day or two? I think this would encourage the people that need materials to end up going there to check for things, running across the people selling them, and cutting out the middleman.
Quote from: 9001 on May 15, 2020, 12:07:12 PM
One thing I'd really love to see is an NPC in every playable city/settlement (Allanak/Luir's/Red Storm/Morins) that just buys every raw material (shell/hide/bone/stone/meat/herbs/etc) really cheaply. Like 1-2 sid per item cheaply, without limit on the items. To prevent abuse, it could be capped at something like 30 sid per character per IC day. It'd allow characters to sell off things they accumulate for a pittance. It'd be way more profitable to sell things to the shops like normal, or to other PCs, but it would smooth off some rough edges on immersion when it comes to hunters/grebbers leaving things behind because they know they'd be unable to sell them even if they really should be able to pass them off cheaply.
The items sold to this NPC could be available to buy at normal prices for a short time - maybe an IC day or two? I think this would encourage the people that need materials to end up going there to check for things, running across the people selling them, and cutting out the middleman.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/26FLgGTPUDH6UGAbm/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47da7efa2b23b13982a782ce14eb617341a272b881&rid=giphy.gif)
Make it like the buyer in the Blackwing Outpost. Y'all know which one I'm talking about.
Quote from: Delirium on May 15, 2020, 12:30:44 PM
Quote from: 9001 on May 15, 2020, 12:07:12 PM
One thing I'd really love to see is an NPC in every playable city/settlement (Allanak/Luir's/Red Storm/Morins) that just buys every raw material (shell/hide/bone/stone/meat/herbs/etc) really cheaply. Like 1-2 sid per item cheaply, without limit on the items. To prevent abuse, it could be capped at something like 30 sid per character per IC day. It'd allow characters to sell off things they accumulate for a pittance. It'd be way more profitable to sell things to the shops like normal, or to other PCs, but it would smooth off some rough edges on immersion when it comes to hunters/grebbers leaving things behind because they know they'd be unable to sell them even if they really should be able to pass them off cheaply.
The items sold to this NPC could be available to buy at normal prices for a short time - maybe an IC day or two? I think this would encourage the people that need materials to end up going there to check for things, running across the people selling them, and cutting out the middleman.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/26FLgGTPUDH6UGAbm/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e47da7efa2b23b13982a782ce14eb617341a272b881&rid=giphy.gif)
Make it like the buyer in the Blackwing Outpost. Y'all know which one I'm talking about.
My obligatory yearly rant on this subject:
Have ALL NPC buyers be able to buy a small number of EACH item from EACH PC, per day/week/month of real time. You can reduce the value of the items in question with each subsequent sale during that window of time. For instance:
Amos has 4 red widgets, 7 blue widgets, and 2 orange widgets.
Kadius will buy up to 2 of each item from Amos. So he can sell 2 red, 2 blue, and 2 orange widgets. The consequence to Amos:
He can sell one of each, with the haggle skill at max, at 50 sids each. So he would net 150 sids from the first of each color he sells.
The second (and final) one of each, the most he can make with max haggle, will be 25 sids. So that'd be 75 max for the second of each color combined. And a total for the RL week of 225 sids.
That might not sound like a lot, but he can ALSO sell 1 of the red and one of the blue at the generic tradesman for an additional 100 sids. And because widgets are containers, he can ALSO sell one blue one to the container guy down the street, for 400 sids. This means he'll still have 3 blue widgets unsold, which he could try and sell to actual PCs, or give as a "donation" to the local law enforcement, or gift to their mate, or whatever else.
That means he just earned 400 sids for just one item in three different colors. He could make serious bank if he was serious enough to make thingamabobs and sell those as well.
But he'd have to put in some actual work, he still has a limit to what he can SELL to an NPC, but the player eliminates the frustration of going to all the shops only to discover that Randy the Stump beat him to the 5 max per BUYER, rather than the max per SELLER.
Quote from: Shabago on May 15, 2020, 01:31:46 PM
Full class mages
In short - Unlikely. Various reasons/positions on this. To name a few;
1) Exceptionally limiting as a role.
2) Guild sniffing for those trying to remain ungemmed.
3) Unbalanced/overpowered and unfortunately, prone to abuses in various forms.
For what it's worth I think many of those asking know that 1 and 2 are true, but find the role fun despite that.
As for 3, not something that just effects the one choosing to play the class. Maybe make them spec app only, if it's good enough for letting someone play a sorcerer, I hope it's good enough to allow a full class mage.
I think it would be cool to have rotating dungeon crawl type events for players to discover.
Here's how I would code it up.
On a set rotation, in set areas of the game, load up 3 'dungeon entrances'.
Each dungeon is a basic cave structure with random badies / traps / treasure.
Every 2 weeks RL, close the entrance and then open up a new entrance to 3 more dungeons.
This may be able to use the same code that is used to migrate the camps for the tribal clans.
If you have it rotate on a 20 week cycle, you would only need to create 60 "dungeons". and I believe a rotating set over 20 weeks with 60 unique dungeons to explore would be fun enough, and "sufficiently" random enough so that people won't get bored.
Quote from: lostinspace on May 15, 2020, 02:10:05 PM
Quote from: Shabago on May 15, 2020, 01:31:46 PM
Full class mages
In short - Unlikely. Various reasons/positions on this. To name a few;
1) Exceptionally limiting as a role.
2) Guild sniffing for those trying to remain ungemmed.
3) Unbalanced/overpowered and unfortunately, prone to abuses in various forms.
For what it's worth I think many of those asking know that 1 and 2 are true, but find the role fun despite that.
As for 3, not something that just effects the one choosing to play the class. Maybe make them spec app only, if it's good enough for letting someone play a sorcerer, I hope it's good enough to allow a full class mage.
I think this is actually a very fair compromise. Making Full mages akin to sorcerers.
3 Karma and Special app required. I would be ok with this.
Quote from: Pew Pew on May 15, 2020, 03:39:31 PM
3 Karma and Special app required. I would be ok with this.
Me, too, but...it should be something that's actually special and rare. If there's five of them running around at the same time, or even three, or even two, then it's less special.
The problem there is for all the players who really, really want to play full class mages, their would only be a scant few slots. People might feel slighted if they don't get to be the Chosen One.
An alternative, for people who want the RP experience of being a full class mage, there could maybe be a Mystic full class that has some mana bonuses, but few skills. The elementalist subguilds already have a pretty wide range of spells, as it stands. From what I saw from playing one elementalist (since the change), that character's spell list was pretty long. It felt like more than half of the old spell list.
I'm not sure why they'd need to be rare, but even if they do, similar constraints exist for sorcerer no? I've never got to play one, but I was under the impression if there are already 2-3 in game special apps will be denied for the role until a slot opens.
I like deskoft's idea of opening one noble per house and more Houses.
I would like to see the rule to remain anonymous and not discuss IG plots and details as optional.
I think there is too much secrecy ooc and ic around the game and that information sharing constantly happens anyway, especially in regards to the one year anonymity rule. I think the secrecy and lack of transparency around the game hurts the game and encourages an OOC element of deception not all, but some of the time.
There is a heightened sense of fairness that must be maintained when you go off of the assumption that players know OOC information and are expected to play IC anyway. I didn't read this whole thread, but I saw a mention of LARP and that's how it's generally done in LARP as when you are playing person there is obviously an immediate lack of anonymity.
I do not like the idea of full class mages, however ... going along the lines of increased transparency I would like lists of what each magicker actually can do as when I would attempt to play mages I never knew how to select them properly. Playing magickers as mysterious IC shouldn't lead to needing to hide what they can do OOC.
I am for removing time restrictions on karma roles and letting people play what they want.
I'm going to toss a few more ideas, here's the first:
Phouse Rework
Two scenarios:
THE CURRENT SCENARIO: Phouses are used just for a specific variety of scenes and very minor storage, sparring, and minor stealing of items because they tend to be unfurnished due to the excessive amount of thefts. Phouse renting gives you a very short amount of enjoyment all around, and zero accomplishment.
THE POTENTIAL SCENARIO: Make apartments unable to be lockpicked. Notably increases the difficulty of wiping out every apartment in an apartment complex. You would probably need to sneak in with a PC and/or steal the key. It creates a money sink in furniture since players can NOW buy furniture and the only way they get the apartment stolen is by someone targetting their apartments specific (which is something that happens IRL since people 'case' places before stealing them). The money sink makes having an apartment a social thing and people want to have cool apartments.
Opens the possibility of insanely expensive apartments with 5-rooms and the like that cost an eye of the face, therefore increasing the amount of achievement a player can have.
Will it make players RP in cliques? They already do.
Quote from: deskoft on May 15, 2020, 08:07:55 PM
I'm going to toss a few more ideas, here's the first:
Phouse Rework
Two scenarios:
THE CURRENT SCENARIO: Phouses are used just for a specific variety of scenes and very minor storage, sparring, and minor stealing of items because they tend to be unfurnished due to the excessive amount of thefts. Phouse renting gives you a very short amount of enjoyment all around, and zero accomplishment.
THE POTENTIAL SCENARIO: Make apartments unable to be lockpicked. Notably increases the difficulty of wiping out every apartment in an apartment complex. You would probably need to sneak in with a PC and/or steal the key. It creates a money sink in furniture since players can NOW buy furniture and the only way they get the apartment stolen is by someone targetting their apartments specific (which is something that happens IRL since people 'case' places before stealing them). The money sink makes having an apartment a social thing and people want to have cool apartments.
Opens the possibility of insanely expensive apartments with 5-rooms and the like that cost an eye of the face, therefore increasing the amount of achievement a player can have.
Will it make players RP in cliques? They already do.
I want!
There were some ideas I really liked from Arm Reborn/2.0 I am struggling to recall but which I want to recall so I can post them here. I know many of the innovations from that time did make their way into the current game. While I continue my archival search for those other ideas I did find this gem (https://brideofson.wordpress.com/2010/01/25/guy-pearce-walks-in-with-a-polaroid-and-a-notepad/) from the Brideofson blog about "notes" which could be added by staff and by players. I'm sure some of it is in use already, but there are other ideas to consider here:
QuoteImagine if players could create the following:
- Item Biographies
What if a certain cane had its lineage detailed by its several owners? - Mount Biographies
That beetle's been with you through thick and thin, sandstorms and battles – a scarred, jaded, but loyal beast. Document its life for the stories and for the imm who might animate it - Merchant House Orders
A merchant needs to keep track of orders placed by their clientele. What better way to keep that information than in-game for Imms to peruse and load items as needed. - Clan Information
Instead of sending in clan emails, players in clans could make notes and updates inside the game for their imms to read. - Literature
Books, books, and more books. - OOC Player Notes
"Oh man, I need to remember to give Amos his share of the sid tomorrow night at 8 EST." or "What was the name of that red-head I just met?"
Now add to that the ability for imms to create:
- NPC Biographies
History and notes that define that NPC's interaction with other characters, giving imms new to a clan the necessary knowledge for consistent animation. - Room Biographies
Lasting entries that describe the major events of a location, not only for other imms to use but perhaps for characters of certain abilities to discover.
There are also administrative notes:
- Builder Information
Rooms, items, echoes, and various other things that require completion, questions , notes, or to-do lists for a builder to manage.
Love the idea of item and room bios...everything should be able to have a bio attached to it.
Even better if we can read those bios somehow without being a psion.
Farming
This idea has two parts, first the crops and then playability. The intent is to bring Farming to Armageddon.
Crops:
Wheat: Presently we have flour IG and Staff have said there are wheat plants that select Clan(s) have access to harvesting and grinding. I think this happens in Red Storm. Yaroch is known to be one a crop-growing village around Allanak but the info doc-wise on just what those crops are is super ambiguous but from what I have seen IG the general consensus seems to be 'wheat' because of food and stuff. Wheat isn't sold in Allanak unless a PC sells it to the local grocery. Some clans have wheat available in their Clan Kitchens, though. To get a sack of flour you have to go to Red Storm or Morin's in the north. The massive sacks are only in Red Storm.
Wheat grows best in loam soil which is soil composed mostly of sand, silt, and a smaller amount of clay. Wheat thrives in 70-75F/21-24C but not much hotter than that or it dies. Wheat requires 12-15 inches of water via rainfall a season to produce a viable crop.
Flax Flax is what is required to make linen and canvas. Flax is not presently IG as a raw plant that is forageable or cultivated. Flax also makes grain/flour, fiber for ropes, oil for furniture, instruments, painting, and sealants as well as used in many ancient medicines.
Flax should be planted in poor and barren earth. Sand and clay contribute to the best growth. It does best in temperatures of 50-80F/10-27C until the blooming stage and then hot, dry weather is best for threshing and drying the straw. Watering the growing flax plant is usually not necessary, as the plant prefers dry, sandy ground.
Cotton Cotton is what is required to make the cloth cotton. Cotton plants exist IG only in Tuluk which is closed for play. Virtual supplies of cotton randomly pop up around Luir's on occasion and are known to also come from a northern tribe which virtually grows a type of cotton and may or may not trade in it if you can locate their camp. Cotton parts (bolls) are craftable into yarn that can then be woven with a loom into a length of cotton by those with clothworking skills, no clanning required.
Cotton prefers a sandy loam, which is silt and clay that contains some sand. Loamy sand contains some silt and clay. Cotton prefers 70-100F/21-37C temperatures. An individual cotton plant requires about 10 gallons of water to achieve maximum yield potential.
Playability:
Geography and World Fit
-Wheat doesn't make the best sense being in Red Storm or Yaroch, it makes better sense in the north where the temperatures, in theory, are lesser given the Grey Forest hasn't burned off.
-Flax makes the most sense for being in the south and being the grain producer via crop growth.
-Cotton doesn't really make sense even in the north given the extensive amount of water a single cotton plant requires. If not for the heat, it would make more sense produced by a House that can either provide a ton of water by natural sources or unnatural sources.
Jobs and Economy
-If wheat was a viable crop accessible in the north, where geographically it fits better, it would give PCs an opportunity to either earn a small amount of coin harvesting a crop, working a mill to grind grain for the 'farm', or pay to take away the plant or the grain they grind for a modicum fee. They could then effectively be a miller as an independent job and not just 'go to Storm and buy a sack to sell with markup' but could sell the sack that they made and make a better profit. On the flipside, maybe there's still dangers in this half-wild wheatcrop and so the farmer needs a guard or something and that would give yet another job opportunity to an independent mercenary or even the Byn.
-If flax was added to the south in Yaroch as an accessible crop, like wheat above, it would create job opportunities for farmers, crafters, and combatants. It would also create further opportunities for the flax-plants to be harvested and sold to the necessary clans that are documented to make linen to then buy the plants and actually make their cloth. It would create for said clans a role or job of a weaver as a crafter. It could then open up opportunities to make gradients of linen such as canvas for painting and canvas for skimmers and stuff.
-I super agree that cotton should be pretty rare at this point and northern, because of the water consumption for a crop big enough to produce a useful quantity. I still would support having bolls in that tribal camp and documented more clearly which tribe, and a vague idea of where, so that it would create a job of hiring someone to hoof it out there, make the purchase through dangerous terrain, and deliver it to those seeking.
Craft and Skills
-Farming Skill but available to all like drawing is with variable caps based on Guild or Subguild. Farming skill would allow for some farming crafts or work like a form of forage. It could open up opportunities to plant and grow some small plants or tubers in apartments or something, too. Or even for tribes with permanent home locations.
-Crafts in terms of wheat and flax individually: harvesting, making grain, bagging grain (or sacking it up). For flax specifically: processing the plant (drying it), de-seeding to then work into oil, processing the dried plant by 'retting' it, further processing it through 'breaking', 'braking', 'swingling', 'scutching', and the 'hackling' it to spin it into yarn and thread, then there could crafts for weaving it into linen or canvas, and then one to like bleach it similar to how cotton is handled that way. Making cloth isn't the end all here. Flax can be made to make grain, make linseed oil, used as a raw plant or cooked plant in dishes, used in medicine, and more.
Off the top of my head, wheat plants are mentioned or existing in at least two locations in the game world, one of which is moderately well known.
Quote from: Brokkr on May 16, 2020, 03:15:25 AM
Off the top of my head, wheat plants are mentioned or existing in at least two locations in the game world, one of which is moderately well known.
Yes, as Teacup mentioned.
I too would like to see such content as farming and proper clothmaking available.
Also I would like to see tattooing added similar to drawing as a possible skill and more capabilities to create fluids as a craft and with mastercrafting, be they alcohol or not. Winemaking and distilling as example.
Tattooing working like drawing creates a pretty big problem. Not everyone spells well, not everyone describes things well, and not everyone understands the intricacies of sentence structure. Not everyone has to.
When you're drawing, it's on a piece of parchment, or doodling on the sidewalk. The code causes the sidewalk drawing to fade, and parchment can be tucked into a closet or discarded, never to be seen again.
A tattoo will be on the person you draw it on until that PC ceases to exist. A good drawing can be made into a disaster with a badly written description. For that reason I'm glad it doesn't work similarly to drawings. I don't think anyone should be able to put a description on anyone ELSE...unless there's a way to get it through quality control before it's made permanent.
Maybe temp tattoos instead?
Quote from: Lizzie on May 16, 2020, 09:04:22 AM
Tattooing working like drawing creates a pretty big problem. Not everyone spells well, not everyone describes things well, and not everyone understands the intricacies of sentence structure. Not everyone has to.
When you're drawing, it's on a piece of parchment, or doodling on the sidewalk. The code causes the sidewalk drawing to fade, and parchment can be tucked into a closet or discarded, never to be seen again.
A tattoo will be on the person you draw it on until that PC ceases to exist. A good drawing can be made into a disaster with a badly written description. For that reason I'm glad it doesn't work similarly to drawings. I don't think anyone should be able to put a description on anyone ELSE...unless there's a way to get it through quality control before it's made permanent.
This would lead to a hierarchy of PC tattoo artistry, some being better than others. Which is good no? I'm not sure how drawing work IG but the fact that they're permanent and therefore you want them to be of good quality doesn't seem to me to be strong criticism of the idea. Unless I've misunderstood your meaning?
I think it would be hilarious and cool to have PC's be able to tattoo like draw. Imagine going to someone who is "world famous" and have a "No Regerts" moment lol.
Quote from: Helloworld on May 16, 2020, 10:14:07 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on May 16, 2020, 09:04:22 AM
Tattooing working like drawing creates a pretty big problem. Not everyone spells well, not everyone describes things well, and not everyone understands the intricacies of sentence structure. Not everyone has to.
When you're drawing, it's on a piece of parchment, or doodling on the sidewalk. The code causes the sidewalk drawing to fade, and parchment can be tucked into a closet or discarded, never to be seen again.
A tattoo will be on the person you draw it on until that PC ceases to exist. A good drawing can be made into a disaster with a badly written description. For that reason I'm glad it doesn't work similarly to drawings. I don't think anyone should be able to put a description on anyone ELSE...unless there's a way to get it through quality control before it's made permanent.
This would lead to a hierarchy of PC tattoo artistry, some being better than others. Which is good no? I'm not sure how drawing work IG but the fact that they're permanent and therefore you want them to be of good quality doesn't seem to me to be strong criticism of the idea. Unless I've misunderstood your meaning?
You've misunderstood my meaning. This is a -text- game. Our characters aren't reading text. They are seeing a visual representation of an item, person, or scene. The picture of the skull on their arm is something they are SEEING. The PLAYER is reading the description. If the description is poorly written, but the picture is intended to be flawless and masterful, it totally ruins it for me.
It's leik
if you have this descrprtion
of a picture of a
great skull with masterful eyes
drawn in teh middle and jaw partly
stretched wide to show the big jaw
(etc)
The PLAYER - is trying to portray something awesome and terrific, but he just isn't very good at writing the descriptions. Maybe English is his second language. Or maybe he's dyslexic. Or just really overtired. Even if his CHARACTER is a master tattoo artist. This is why the staff has quality control, and why we even have the typo command. So that we can present the best experience for the READER as possible, which makes it much easier for us to better visualize the experiences of our characters.
There is no quality control by staff on drawing items. People and their IC opinion along with the skill level displayed codedly on the item is the quality control. (It says novice-master quality as you look at it.) Maybe tattooing can branch from drawing?
I would love tattooing, and I'm not too worried about bad tattoos. You've always been able to get a new tattoo over the one you have, so if you get something terrible you can just pay a couple small and get it covered up by an inking of a desert expanse or whatever.
Seems like a weird concern in general, surely you'd know the writing quality of a character already just by virtue of talking to them? If you thought they wouldn't write a good tattoo description you could just not get one from them.
Some people are better off writing prose than dialogue.
I don't see how tattooing would be different than drawing. It would have a Quality listed at the bottom. So that really insanely masterful flaming skull would still be 'novice' quality at the end. So you're world famous tattoo artist might pitch you on this:
(https://img-cache.oppcdn.com/img/v1.0/s:10179/t:Q29hc3RsaW5lIFRhdHRvbw/p:24/g:tl/o:2.5/a:30/q:90/1400x720-dJPz0JJlP1OFgSQy.jpg/598x720/4ff30971e044bd587f1fee1f34275004.jpg)
But really you get this:
(https://www.galleryoftattoosnow.com/badtattoosHOSTED/images/gallery/medium/bad-skull-tattoo.jpg)
Prison Tats for Bynners 2020.
Just have a prompt at the end before the tattoo item is added, letting the tattooed char accept or deny the tattoo and proof it. Since a tattoo can't be forced on anyone without their consent (I assume, anyway, that it falls under mutilation rules), there's no reason not to give that option.
Quote from: Lizzie on May 16, 2020, 10:50:25 AM
Quote from: Helloworld on May 16, 2020, 10:14:07 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on May 16, 2020, 09:04:22 AM
Tattooing working like drawing creates a pretty big problem. Not everyone spells well, not everyone describes things well, and not everyone understands the intricacies of sentence structure. Not everyone has to.
When you're drawing, it's on a piece of parchment, or doodling on the sidewalk. The code causes the sidewalk drawing to fade, and parchment can be tucked into a closet or discarded, never to be seen again.
A tattoo will be on the person you draw it on until that PC ceases to exist. A good drawing can be made into a disaster with a badly written description. For that reason I'm glad it doesn't work similarly to drawings. I don't think anyone should be able to put a description on anyone ELSE...unless there's a way to get it through quality control before it's made permanent.
This would lead to a hierarchy of PC tattoo artistry, some being better than others. Which is good no? I'm not sure how drawing work IG but the fact that they're permanent and therefore you want them to be of good quality doesn't seem to me to be strong criticism of the idea. Unless I've misunderstood your meaning?
You've misunderstood my meaning. This is a -text- game. Our characters aren't reading text. They are seeing a visual representation of an item, person, or scene. The picture of the skull on their arm is something they are SEEING. The PLAYER is reading the description. If the description is poorly written, but the picture is intended to be flawless and masterful, it totally ruins it for me.
It's leik
if you have this descrprtion
of a picture of a
great skull with masterful eyes
drawn in teh middle and jaw partly
stretched wide to show the big jaw
(etc)
The PLAYER - is trying to portray something awesome and terrific, but he just isn't very good at writing the descriptions. Maybe English is his second language. Or maybe he's dyslexic. Or just really overtired. Even if his CHARACTER is a master tattoo artist. This is why the staff has quality control, and why we even have the typo command. So that we can present the best experience for the READER as possible, which makes it much easier for us to better visualize the experiences of our characters.
Hm, ok. In that case I think I actually understood you correctly, at least partially. I had thought that the images would be described in text on the screen. Seems that would be obvious. I had also thought you were saying that the players ability to write elegantly descriptive prose was the bottleneck to having a tattoo you OOCly think is pleasing to observe. Thus far we're on the same page.
Where we seem to differ is seeing that dynamic as the issue.
The way I look at it is just as in the real world if you want a good tattoo (IE, *you* personally really like the aesthetic) you have to find someone already with a tattoo from the artist and see if you want one from them as well. That artist could be technically expert at their craft but just not have a style you appreciate. That would proxy in in this case for PCs with l33t skills run by a player who is prose-impaired, according to your tastes at least.
The different players' abilities to word their tattoos would then create a hierarchy of skill.
Another thing that happens in real life is the artist sketches something on paper and you get to see it before hand. You could do this in game, then the process of applying the tattoo to your PC would be an identical wording of the description of the image on the paper.
I think, and I may be wrong here, that part of your dislike of the idea is that players who are prose-impaired would be gated from playing excellent tattoo artists by their ability to actually artfully describe their tattoos. (One possible solution to this would be them procuring descriptions written by other people they know IRL, could be a fun little side project for people, lol). What I would say in response to this would be that this gating is already inherent to the game genre and to roleplaying in general. You can't play a funny character if you as a player don't understand humour. Similar things happen for extreme intelligence, or empathy. Your PCs will always be, in-part, limited by the capacities of their player.
Back to the tattoo issue though. Possible work arounds for the problem you highlight would include: Consent to apply the tattoo, as mentioned above, some kind of prompt (do you accept the image as worded... etc). Also application to staff to have the tattoo re-worded in some way. But I think my above mentioned similarity to real-life tattoos, them being sketched first on paper, is a viable work option.
Interested in your thoughts! :)
Weird one,
Playable "jail" or mine you can be sent to.
People can play as prisoners and work their way out
or
People can play as guards or something?
I dunno, I'm high while writing this but there's a good idea somewhere in there. Triste help me out or something.
Okay wait, I came back to add more. The "prison" can be its own city. All come in, few come out. Own economy, can be a starting point. Place to twink and RP and not have to be Byn. I dunno.
That might make slaves more workable. Allow people to make secondary guard or prisoner characters to help populate the areas. If it's popular enough it might make slavery/imprisonment an actually feasible part of the game.
Plus, yah know, something to do while you're waiting for a character to be approved.
Quote from: Narf on May 16, 2020, 10:09:36 PM
That might make slaves more workable. Allow people to make secondary guard or prisoner characters to help populate the areas. If it's popular enough it might make slavery/imprisonment an actually feasible part of the game.
Plus, yah know, something to do while you're waiting for a character to be approved.
oh that's good. Just choose a number and there's a premade burly scarred dwarf that you just mine as and grunt.
Making Slave PC's a secondary character ain't a bad idea. They're quite restricted as it is.
I've suggested before, there's all sorts of possibilities for characters that anyone can just step into for a day, not just boring old slaves in a prison camp.
There could be some random runners to inhabit, if you feel like going on a contract. There could be some beggars on street corners or barflies in the Gaj -- just flavor characters for any player to possess for a short duration. Or for RPTs (especially HRPTs) various short term roles could be made available -- for anyone to possess for the duration of the event.
Like the event that happened in Luirs; my character had no reason to be there, and no way to actually get there. But I (or anyone else) might have maybe jumped into a garrison NPC or antagonistic NPC and had fun anyway.
I think about 90% of the playerbase could be trusted not to abuse the privilege, and the ones that do, could be restricted from doing so. And we have a sizeable number of lapsed and semi-lapsed players would likely enjoy playing Arm for a day, without having to dedicate time to a PC.
I would like to see random calls for short term clan openings and events. Staff gives a group of 5 or 6 PC's a 1 week window to raid and start trouble and generally liven up a fairly lifeless but incedibly dangerous desert. A one-shot week where a gith tribe goes nuts, or a resurgent elf tribe, raider group, or slave uprising. Hand over a starting story and a bare-bones set up for them. No sparring or grind, just the opportunity to tell a brief but highlighted story that will spur activity for the hum-drum life most of the world seems to lead.. Run it Sunday night to Sunday night, with the playerbase knowing that those days are going to be lit up with trouble and they should get in on it.
I like the temporary PC idea too.
The antagonistic ones could have a bit more generic s-descs like soldier or desc, to be able to tell a bit easier they were NPC being controlled. Basically their skills would be set to be cannon folder but still would be fun.
Others like for RP might be a bit more standard with very little in the way of powerful skills but still be able to experience a story. Basically I believe this was done in the HRPT and it was great. I don't think it is easily done without staff effort but perhaps changes to how accounts work might make it easier to manage.
Just as a side idea:
If this were in place I would love to see something longer term akin to gith or kryl (or threat) emerge from the salt flats, big enough to threaten Redstorm, and Allanak, and even Luirs in their own way. What these events do is generate demand for just about everything. Within the Allanak having to deal with sabotage originating from Redstorm and a tuluk controlled luirs on top of everything. I think what could happen is that the need to kill an individual(who would just be quickly replaced) would be less important than the need to destroy or stop an organization's plans.
Regarding Shabago's response to my idea on the response thread:
My thoughts on "buying all from NPCs" wasn't really that. It was "buying a limited amount of each" of whatever that NPC normally buys and instead of the limit imposed on the buyer, it is imposed on the seller.
Rather than 1 guy being able to sell 5 red widgets, 5 blue ones, 5 orange ones, and 5 green ones for 100 sids each to NPC Amos JUST because he happens to be there before anyone else can get to him -
Let him *AND EVERYONE ELSE* be able to sell only 2 of each. And reduce the NPC's offer with the second of each, from each seller.
I want a new race.
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on May 17, 2020, 11:55:18 AM
RE SHABAGO'S POST ON REPLY THREAD: I don't get this. We introduce a bigger variety of items and commodities, and the main concern is, that = more money = more tilted economy?
It's not new items and commodities that are the problem, then, it's the base mechanics of the economy, down to the core, which is the problem. It sounds like the problem we are having here is that there's just too much obsidian floating around then, right? There's only two ways to fix this:
1) Reducing the amount of coin which can potentially be generated by the economy. This may mean lowering prices NPCs buy goods for, limiting how much money NPCs can spend on anything, lowering pay for those clans with paymasters, lowering how much money nobles and templars and GMH blood members get to throw around, or simply making said resources that can bring in money harder to acquire. It should not, however, mean discouraging more varieties of items.
2) Increasing the number of things which obsidian can be used for. In essence, what makes coin useful is that it can be used to purchase goods and services which are useful or otherwise desirable. We've got booze, overpriced food, mounts, skimmers, and a variety of equipment that can be purchased from vendors. I think in this respect, we just have to be more creative with more ways we can use obsidian.
Maybe we should have weapons degrade, as was suggested before. Needing to repair weapons means more resources are consumed, or new weapons may simply need to be bought entirely.
I also remember recently reading the thread on cures that should be degraded. Well honestly, that doesn't sound like a terrible idea, but everyone complains that the cures are a huge pain to make already. Okay then, simple solution: let's make the cures degrade slowly as every other perishable item, but let's also have some vendors which can sell these ingredients. Now we have a need for an item, and more potential money being taken out of the economy.
Another thing we can do. Maybe we should be able to directly convert obsidian coins into obsidian commodities? Like, we could have a huge furnace/crucible, you dump a bunch of coins in, and you get obsidian chunks and shards?
Quote from: Lotion on May 17, 2020, 02:05:16 PM
RE SHABAGO'S POST ON REPLY THREAD: Are there appropriate money sinks? It kinda seems like there's a bunch of places where coins/wealth is generated but not as many where the value it represents is destroyed.
Moving this here as it was placed in the wrong thread. We'll try to keep replies here! Thank you!
Though this is part of the economy I want to see more tempting money sinks in the game.
-I loved the addition of decay (food,poison,etc)
-I loved armor especially shield wear out over time
-I loved the addition of mount feed.
-I would love to see spice become more useful so its a worthwhile money sink.
I once suggested public baths but there are now bathing oils which is awesome. Attending a high class event? The fact you don't stink of sweat and sand should be checked at the door.
Once the economy update is done it'll be easier to provide feedback, as I strongly believe that outside investing in a class/sub-guild with crafting skills or performing in-game job the ability to generate coins should be a bit more toned down.
Since C-elf has been confirmed and potential new crafts, as well as two-moons being around as well. Lower strength character definitely need more options for higher end gear that is light, especially after the balancing of material types.
Some possibilities:
-lighter shield that are reinforced by leather
-light city stealth gear that isn't heavy leather
-a light for option that for both city/wilderness stealth
-stronger crossbow options that don't weight 20stone and can be used by weaker PC
-Some more crossbow gear (there is so much more archery gear but crossbow stuff is still lacking)
-stronger stabbing weapons that can be thrown with appropriate bonus for both.
This doesn't need to be a c-elf clan crafting idea, but just throwing it out there for the various crafting clans.
And though this is a coding idea, I would love to be able to assess any piece of equipment and being able to tell if it would help with a skill (maybe with value skill). Currently I feel description can be somewhat misleading or misinterpreted further promoting OOC information spread.
An equivalent to bury for use in the city, making dead-drops, stashes behind loose bricks in walls, etc.
(Posted some of this already, but in the wrong thread (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52143.msg1046446.html#msg1046446).)
Idea: Mount Skills
Give mounts skills that can be trained, corresponding to the PC skills (ride/charge/trample).
- (Your basic store-bought mount has adequate ride skill but no combat skills.)
- This completely ends Fungible Mounts (which we've already been moving away from with persisted titles and with all the new varieties introduced a few years ago).
- Mount training becomes an exciting new career.
- Mount stealing becomes legendary.
Idea: Animal Husbandry (Ranchin')
Extend some of the mount and feed code to other domestic animals: chalton, escru, etc.
- Make it possible to buy and feed 'em; add a chance of well-fed mixed-sex populations spawning young.
- Make it possible to move them around without resorting to "subdue." (Stupid simple option: allow "hitch" with a skill check against ride.)
- Where appropriate/needed, add scripts for extracting resources without slaughtering the animal.
Shabago, some of your concern about farming would obviously apply to ranching too.
In favor of farming and, even more, ranching, I'd say: I'm excited about anything that lets a player build up something that PCs can fight over. Cultivated land is an okay thing to fight over; grazing land with oh-so-portable animals is maybe even better.
Wilderness Quit Revamp:
Instead of just quitting in the wilderness, make wilderness quit a sociable tool that allows you to (with appropriate crafting delays) build a campsite. Other PCs can quit there, lasts the equivalent of an IG night unless the PC that made the campsite is there to maintain it with their presence. Visible via hunt, or maybe some small room desc tag, a la "the recent remains of a campfire can be seen here." Could give a rest bonus and thirst/hunger bonuses to all characters present.
It would never be necessary to bring someone a stalker to build your camp, but it would provide small bonuses as well as roleplay opportunity for doing so.
I do not really have any new content ideas to contribute at this time, but I wanted to take a moment to express my appreciation to Staff for chiming in on the content and ideas generated in this topic. Also a big shout out to Shabago for taking their time to read and respond.
Quote from: Pale Horse on May 18, 2020, 05:17:14 PM
I do not really have any new content ideas to contribute at this time, but I wanted to take a moment to express my appreciation to Staff for chiming in on the content and ideas generated in this topic. Also a big shout out to Shabago for taking their time to read and respond.
I really love these types of threads. And have nothing but kudos for Shabago for taking the time to do this.
I myself am really scraping the bottom of the barrel for ideas at this point as over the years many of the ideas suggested have already been implemented. As I mention I once suggested roman style baths as a money sink, instead we got scented oils to clean the body which fits the theme much more but at the same time also satisfies the idea of a money sink regarding hygiene.
How about making it so more than 2 people can rent at out any given apartment?
I want scribble to last RL days if it was done in the city.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 18, 2020, 06:54:35 PM
How about making it so more than 2 people can rent at out any given apartment?
There could also be an additional cost for every person beyond 1 (100 extra sid a month) with some of the bigger apartments costing more for extra people.
Quote from: Dresan on May 18, 2020, 07:20:39 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 18, 2020, 06:54:35 PM
How about making it so more than 2 people can rent at out any given apartment?
There could also be an additional cost for every person beyond 1 (100 extra sid a month) with some of the bigger apartments costing more for extra people.
That's the exact opposite of how multiple people renting property works.
Quote from: Dresan on May 18, 2020, 07:20:39 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 18, 2020, 06:54:35 PM
How about making it so more than 2 people can rent at out any given apartment?
There could also be an additional cost for every person beyond 1 (100 extra sid a month) with some of the bigger apartments costing more for extra people.
At some point over the last year, I played a character that qualified for one of the position-exclusive apartment blocks in Allanak. I made less per cycle (by 100 sid) than the rent was, even though that character was the target audience for it - in other words, by design, I was being encouraged to rent with another PC.
Multiple people sharing a place, should lower the cost per-person. But I can see the benefits in a one-time larger fee to account for the 'front desk' having to get another key cut (get two as standard, you want more, pay for them).
I'm all for illegally subletting your spare room out to Shady Dude #1 for a fee to keep quiet...or even a family of 8 who just doesn't want the AoD's knowing exactly where they are living. Or for running your prostitution ring out of. Or any other reason. Zalanthans must have large families, and with resources so low (for NPCs anyway!), living crowded like cockroaches under a fridge should feel more the norm, and be accessible to PCs who want that feel too.
All for lower str characters aka elves getting gear tuned to them. But please make the damage lower as well. The last thing you want is a warclub that swings almost as fast as a dagger and hits as hard as a dwarf in the hands of an elf with a 10 point agi gap on his foe.
Quote from: molecricket on May 18, 2020, 07:24:48 PM
That's the exact opposite of how multiple people renting property works.
To be clear I am all for additional money sinks. As long as character can make enough to buy food/water that is good enough. Gross poverty should be a default of this game.
If you don't know how to make coins, join a clan.
Multiple people renting one space sounds great for everyone but the person the owners and the person at the door. An additional cost can be justified in many ways, but its an additional cost, not doubling the rent. To further simplify, you would still save money from renting with more people just not as much.
Quote from: Dresan on May 18, 2020, 09:28:53 PMGross poverty should be a default of this game.
Gross poverty is the
virtual default. The PCs we play tend to be or end up being on the exceptional end of what they are - from grebbers, to hunters, to thieves, to mercenaries, to merchants and so forth.
I do think the economy should reflect the theme and for the coded elements to reinforce what should and shouldn't be profitable and to what extent - but I don't think we should be forced to play the bottom of the barrel that is the virtual default. It's certainly an option and I've seen
great characters represent that end of things. That kind of poverty isn't fun for everybody to play, and even when it is, it may not be fun to play except every once and a while.
I'm all for well-considered money sinks, but there's a balance to be found. The goal shouldn't be to grind players down to poverty, but to have thematically appropriate economic activity that promotes interaction, fun, and RP.
Simple.
If you want to generate moderate to obscene amounts of wealth just pick a light or heavy mercantile class or a crafting sub-guild.
Or soldier...you can always be a soldier and be rich... :o
From the sidebar thread:
Quote
- Dungeon crawls/rotation
Really cool and would be fun on paper. < No realistic basis.
Where did this come from? We have ruins, battle sites, outposts, research/dig sites and so on that would explain a potential location for a "dungeon", be it above or below ground. Those could potentially be built, yes. But it's a one off. The idea of rotating them with replenishing <insert loot here> is pretty jarring, imo. It's sort of like Sandy Claws is real, running about and dropping presents for people to find, after X was cleared out. This ties into the above, because ... who built it? Why? There's one group or two out there that needed <thing> and they made the thing. Beyond that, it'd be hard to game-world justify.
Random dungeon crawls don't specifically appeal to me. Doesn't really jive with the themes of the game.
That said, a lot of the game world is completely virtual. There's a myriad of buildings in the Rinth and Allanak that you can't walk into...that aren't even mentioned in the text descriptions. Virtually, those buildings are there. If suddenly you could walk into one of those buildings, it would only be OOCly jarring. In the narrative, that building would have been there all along.
Similarly, Armageddon's setting is supposedly post-apocalyptic. There has to be all sorts of ruins...somewhere...of a bygone era.
A massive sprawling ruin that randomly opens up new areas for fresh dungeon-crawling is actual content. Or tunnels that have side passages that might open or close upon reboot. Or little sinkhole caverns that open up randomly, and get filled with beasties. Or islands that appear and disappear in the Sea. It's not that stuff doesn't exist already, it's just that it's virtual until it's codely linked into the shared narrative -- just like fresh obsidian deposits, or foraged rock deposits.
QuoteNPC shop buyers buying 'all' per PC.
- NPC shops buying everything -> More coin - More tilted economy.
Since Shabago invited further debate once points were replied to, I want to touch on this again with the tilting of the economy in mind.
I know that there were a couple of ideas being responded to at once in that, but I think the idea I put forward isn't going to contribute to the tilting of the economy, or if it will it will be trivial enough for added value to the game to outweigh it - but I know my perspective is limited here. I'm going to explain why I think this is thematically appropriate economic activity that will be a net benefit to the game, as well as promote interaction and RP instead of just being coin generation.
My proposal was a single NPC per settlement that would cheaply buy raw materials, with a limit per IC day on how much they'd buy from a single PC. Every PC would have their own quota, so they're not fighting over who gets to sell to this NPC first. My wording earlier may have been confusing when I said they'd buy materials without limit, but I was referring to the NPC not having a limit on buying a specific item, shared or per PC. If someone had sold them five feathers that day, there would be nothing stopping them from buying a sixth from them - or a tenth, or a hundred if a bunch of PCs decided they really needed to get rid of feathers that day.
I originally said that cap of 30 sid made per PC per IC day sounded like it would prevent abuse. So if the NPC was buying at 2 sid each item, a PC could only sell 15 items per day. If this still sounds like it has the potential to add too much coin to the economy, I think a cap of 15 sid or even 10 is still workable, with each item being bought for 1 sid. I feel it's thematically appropriate for this NPC to be ripping grebbers and hunters who don't have the time or energy to be finding better deals for their goods off, and with a limit of 15 sid per IC day it's three days work to afford filling a waterskin. Working through a nice mound of dung would be more profitble.
This idea was never about trying to make a new way for PCs to get a bunch of coin, but allow certain types of characters to just barely get by doing what their IC 'job' was when they can't find work for PCs and the shops are saturated, as well as have a way to deal with some clutter that made more IC sense than 'junk bone' x 10. It can be jarring to be playing a hunter coming in with chalton hides and horns, and still having to go scrape dung or some other codedly profitable task to get by because I'm totally unable to sell them. If anything, I think that having something like this may keep PCs from having to go to those more profitable tasks instead of being able to play their concept and scrape by when waiting to get business involving other PCs.
If this NPC is also selling the items it gets, this may act as a coin sink or at least mitigate the effects of its coin generation. If some hunter comes in with their leftovers that they were unable to sell for a decent profit elsewhere and gives up their scrab shell for 1 sid just because they can't deal with holding onto it, then someone coming along and buying the shell for 50-100 sid takes money out of the economy. The NPC would have a wide variety of things, and I can see certain PCs checking for things regularly, knowing that something they find value could show up - and to run into the grebbers/hunters doing the selling. It'd be far more profitable (and fun) for everyone involved to bypass this NPC, after all.
On the topic of the NPC having things up for sale, I think it should never have more than five of a thing. Even if it was sold twenty feathers in a day, only five would be up for sale, and that virtual sales should happen very often to encourage the PCs buying from it to visit more regularly and run into the characters selling what they want to be buying. If every IC day 3 of each item in stock were disappeared by virtual sales that could represent scarcity well, and nothing would be sitting around in the inventory for more than two IC days if nobody was continuing to sell them. I don't intend it to be some one-stop shop where the inventory gets bloated with so much stuff that it stops people from having to interact with PCs to get things. Another option is to have whatever's put up for sale be sold virtually if it's been up for more than IC day, if that's easier to implement codedly. I'm aware that either way of doing this is probably quite different from how virtual sales are currently implemented and would require more work because of it. It's less about the specific way it's done and more about making sure that items put up aren't there for very long in order to promote bypassing the NPC in favor of direct interaction.
I hope that addresses at least some of the concerns on how this would interact with the economy.
Random Adventure Generation:
Zalanthas is a pretty large and fascinating place to explore, but due to the static nature of MUDs, and "gritty" MUDs in particular, eventually players that are inclined to explore them end up exploring everything and having nothing more to do with regards to exploration potentially for years at a time. Further, those of us that haven't explored the game as much are less inclined to because we know that any given place we go has been picked over by previous characters for anything interesting that might be there. People have suggested a random dungeon generation system, with the response that it isn't very much in theme. That seems valid, I think it'd feel too much like a public MMO and you'd start to see... breaks in how realistically people rped their characters if you had that sort of thing available. It's not a theoretical problem either, a lot of the less realistic aspects of the game that exist now have ripple effects on how people rp.
That said, I think it would be worth brainstorming ways that randomized content generation could work within the theme of the game. Some of the less creative examples might just be making randomized dungeons in places where it would be more fitting with the world to occur, relying not on ruins of unspoken past civilizations (that by necessity would have no story to them), but instead making interesting natural phenomena that lasted a while and were worth exploring. Natural phenomena doesn't need a constantly generated set of history or backgrounds, and thus avoids the issue of random dungeon generation.
Think like the northern lights, but with more weirdness associated.
Some examples:
*A rare form of crystal occurs underneath the sea of silt, and occasional vortexes or wind patterns will uncover not just the crystals but the strange ecosystem that occurs within their depths.
*A portal opens up to another plane, staying open for a limited duration. Those knowledgeable in magic might know when they open and when they close, something highly important because you do not want to get stuck on the other side when it closes.
*During particular phases of the moon a natural phenomena will occur in certain parts of the world that has strange effects on the creatures living there. Some positive, some negative. This could effect local eco systems, visiting mounts and of course players, but the area these phenomena occurs in is randomized (within certain restrictions) even if the timing is predictable to those knowledgeable in the effects of the moons.
Having shifting content like this has the potential to stir a lot of interest in exploration that will tend to die off for more veteran players over time, and I think with some brainstorming you could come up with randomized content that didn't rely on backstoryless dungeon crawls.
Create room wide sandstorm/siltstorm instances that occasionally apparate in Red Desert, or the silt sea. Upon entering it, you are considered lost and you've only got three options. Exit:Wonder. Exit:Escape. Or you camp down and wait it out to disperse on its own.
If you choose the exit escape.
You have 15% chance to fail and restumble back into the sandstorm and encounter a creature that might be aggressive.
You have 60% chance to fail and restumble back into the sandstorm without any dangers, a little more tired, but ready to try again.
You have 5% chance to fail and stumble onto a mysterious cave entrance/island that you can enter. It might be just a little cove that has better resting environment. It could have something living in there. It could be a network of caves with a vein of emeralds inside. Whatever else.
You have 20% chance of succeeding and stumbling out of sandstorm back into normal desert environment.
If you exit the exit 'wonder'
You have 45% chance to fail and restumble back into the sandstorm and encounter a creature that might be aggressive.
You have 25% chance to fail and stumble back into the sandstorm without any dangers. A little more tired, but ready to try again.
You have 20% chance to stumble onto a mysterious cave entrance/island that you can enter.
You have 10% chance to stumble out of the sandstorm.
Or you can camp down and after a certain time, be ejected from the sandstorm as it disperses.
Do those caves exist on the map? No they dont. Once you visit one. Can you lead others to it? No. You cant, you were in the middle of the freaking mother of all sandstorms. All you can say it's somewhere in Red Desert. Or In the middle of the silt sea. Or whatever other environs that could create instances that obscure observation and can explain people stumbling into unknown environs and then never being able to find their way back.
Boom. Now you have randomized dungeons/adventures, without needing to explain how did they appear without being there at all times. Desert is vast. The sea is vast. You can spend a lifetime looking for that odd spot you've stumbled onto once, while pushing your way through a sandstorm.
Random dungeons of this type isnt per se a theme of Armageddon? True. But personally? I think they would 'improve' the game more, then detract from it.
Balancing things out will be difficult though. I'll admit. Ways will need to be created that would prevent people from spending too long of a time inside the instanced dungeons. I suggest gradual reduction in hp/stun/mana regen and a gradual increase of temperature.
Less jarring perhaps, there could be some 'trackless desert' rooms on the edges of the map, with two exits -- a cardinal direction that represents pressing on or 'exit'.
If a party follows the 'press on' direction a random number -2 to 5 is generated, which determines your new room number. You have a percent chance based on the room number/10 to instead be spit out into a random 'far flung' location -- a random encounter -- for which the only escape is back into the trackless desert. There would also be a very small percent chance (again, based on the room number) to be set back out on the normal grid.
If you exit, a random number -5 to 2 is generated. When the room number is less than 0, you are spit back out somewhere along the edges of the normal grid.
You can stay as long as you like in the far flung locations, and wilderness characters can quit out in trackless deserts. There might even be save/quit rooms in certain 'far flung' locations, or magical means to (re)visit these locations. The might also be a way to 'mark' a far flung location with direction sense, so that you can return via traversing the trackless desert.
Of course, the edges and middle of the Silt Sea could also have 'trackless' rooms. (For all I know, they already do.)
.........
My thinking is the content on the other end of the trackless rooms is built by builders, rather than randomly generated. Really, randomly generating compelling content in a text based game with a limited budget is probably not possible. 'Compelling' being the key word there.
The built locations could be added to over time, if the feature proves popular. Or randomly generated locations could be added to the mix, if someone is smart enough to figure out a way to make them interesting. Markov chains or whatever?
I honestly believe this would help the game. Keep the explorer/offpeak portion of our playerbase entertained during the lulls. And provide some mostly non consequential, but important content in conversation. When more player driven topics have dried out, or are off limits.
Sure, it's very D&Dish, but that is not necessary a bad thing.
What about making a new critter (or adding this to an existing on) that has it burrow out some tunnels in one of the areas that's a lot of open space? Have it be an aggressive critter that lives in packs/colonies, and have it be a collector. When it comes across a dead body, or it and its packmates kill someone, it drags their remains back to its lair, which is a mini-maze of critters. Have these little mazes be procedurally generated so they're all different. They'd be spawned in their territory like another current feature of the game, and once cleared out would collapse after a bit since they're not being maintained.
At the heart of the lair would be a bunch of stuff that they'd collected - maybe some random gear/etc, perhaps actual PC gear from corpses they dragged in, or even ones that sunk into the sands in their territory.
These lairs/dens could have some variety due to procedural generation, some being smaller, some being larger and more dangerous that would require a good few people to get through. It's not quite a dungeon crawl, but it would add content to go search out for, and have 'rewards' in the loot of scavenged corpse gear and perhaps natural resources in a way that doesn't break immersion. These creatures could have dug up some interesting things that got lost in the sands over the ages to hoard in their lairs, offering a very small random chance to have some super interesting things.
I could see some sort of randomized features, but this is primarily and role playing game, where the focus is on role playing primarily. I think some of the better features to work on is maybe moving or adjustable dens during different seasons, kinda like how some of the tribal camps move around. Maybe work more on the AI of the creatures in the game like how certain big things move around the grasslands. In any case, make the world seem more living and breathing, rather than static and same as it has been for many years. I realize there has been updates here and there, but take the existing and improve upon what is there rather than building new.
To be a successful
multiplayer online game, we should hit all the points on the Bartle's taxonomy of player types. There should be something for everyone, killers, socializes, achievers, and
explorers.
QuoteWe have ruins, battle sites, outposts, research/dig sites and so on that would explain a potential location for a "dungeon", be it above or below ground.
Great! You got the concept of the idea - a semi-randomly generated location that appears and disappears in the desert wastes, using the 'enter' command, that can lead to a small/large area to explore. Incentive to explore can be resources, treasure, knowledge, nothing, or whatever. Maybe have a 'guardian spirit' type of MOB to defeat, and they drop a map and cool looking rare boots. Have the explorers come back and have to hire a group to go back out to kill.
QuoteWhy? There's one group or two out there that needed <thing> and they made the thing. Beyond that, it'd be hard to game-world justify .... If IC actions or <event> causes such to be doable/realistic, I'm game. Who knows? Some ungodly huge salt worm decides to go on vacation to a silt island? Boom - Tunnel.
Why.I sometimes feel the game lacks some of these small adventure type quests that bored players could go on. It's the fantasy adventure aspect of the RPG genre that sometimes gets missed out, because it requires time, energy, and work to set up. With enough semi-randomness to it, any player could be out in the wastes and discover something new, giving the players another thing to do when they feel like they've done it all.
Why.I sometimes feel that introducing new things to ArmageddonMUD is hampered by restrictions to a theme that shouldn't be as rigid in the fantasy setting. I'd love to have new races pop up, cities be destroyed and rebuilt & then destroyed again, roads to be changed and modified. I feel that some of the
justifications that are required for changes should just be simply as
because magick or
because the wind blew or
an earthquake opened up a new passageway through the mountains. We're writing
our own story, we don't need to align 100% with some predetermined DUNE or DARK SUN worldbuilding rules.
Why.I
wants it. ;)
QuoteClan compounds/apartments overhaul.
I'll be honest and say the ability for this sort of reworking has been largely spoiled by certain witnessed behaviour. It's not a one off case where we've seen X location be hit/raided stolen from with utter disregard for the world around them. There are, pending clan/tribe, hundreds of employees/family/guards/tribals there, and a PC waltz in and steals half a warehouse worth of goods and waltz back out. Changing the build to allow this isn't something I'm very interested in. Those actually wishing to engage the game world realistically and accomplish something like this are welcome (and encouraged) to work with staff on it. It's doable, but should be extremely risky/challenging - without the check and balance in place, it leads to abuse.
On the apartment front, this is something we've been discussing. Apartments are a very different creature compared to big compounds/Houses. Finding a balance of possible to do, but with appropriate risk would be ideal. We're working on it.
This problem of twinky behavior is not likely to go away, and its not that I'm suggesting that the clan and player treasures shouldn't be fully guarded, but every other location be more open.
There should be clan warehouses that only a couple people have access to that you need to go through guard who has a key. Equally lockers should be treated like apartments where you get the key to the locker once you are in an area for members only so anyone picking the locks would get their ass kicked.
Is this a lot of work? Yes, but clan compounds contribute to helping stagnate the game. As soon as someone is in their clan compound they are cut off from the rest of the world unless someone wants to potentially be trapped or fight his way out. These places should have a lot of people coming in and out all the time. There shouldn't be a closed door at the front.
Clan compounds should be safe for their members and their things BUT spies and enemies could still be lurking just around the corner. The solution to every problem in the city shouldn't just be run into your compound, though admitted it still the very best place to head to for a member as the guards will jump to your rescue if someone openly attacks you.
As for apartments, there is risk even if doors only locked from the outside and you could flee right out the door. These are places are crime code free and have only one exit. But i think changing it from guaranteed death to potential death is enough to get many more people to use them. Maybe some of the much MUCH more expensive places should have crime-cod in the apartments to reflect hired security.
One more thought:
I still believe that the overall power level of Allanak as a whole is way to strong for the current game.
I think most idea players/staff come up with are already easily handled at the red robe+ militia level.You add black robes and even tuluk suffers loses. Luirs is a pretty good example of a place that lacks this high magical presence and where on can still seriously feel that a new threat of gith or magick could be what leads to staff implementing the ruined luirs map it had years ago.
Yet these thrilling events in luirs would feel like nothing more than another spider den when places next to Allanak.
The high level VNPCs mere existence(even if we don't hear/see them doing anything) just makes Allanak feel untouchable and stagnant. Now maybe at its heart that is the true theme of allanak, but it doesn't feel very interesting and it makes the effort of staff/players to do anything that feels somewhat relevant or impactful just feel kinda meh.
Granted this is just my opinion and it could just I should just be playing in remote places or small tribes, where events or my actions can have more impact.
Quote from: Dresan on May 20, 2020, 04:27:22 PM
This problem of twinky behavior is not likely to go away, and its not that I'm suggesting that the clan and player treasures shouldn't be fully guarded, but every other location be more open.
There should be clan warehouses that only a couple people have access to that you need to go through guard who has a key. Equally lockers should be treated like apartments where you get the key to the locker once you are in an area for members only so anyone picking the locks would get their ass kicked.
Is this a lot of work? Yes, but clan compounds contribute to helping stagnate the game. As soon as someone is in their clan compound they are cut off from the rest of the world unless someone wants to potentially be trapped or fight his way out. These places should have a lot of people coming in and out all the time. There shouldn't be a closed door at the front.
Clan compounds should be safe for their members and their things BUT spies and enemies could still be lurking just around the corner. The solution to every problem in the city shouldn't just be run into your compound, though admitted it still the very best place to head to for a member as the guards will jump to your rescue if someone openly attacks you.
As for apartments, there is risk even if doors only locked from the outside and you could flee right out the door. These are places are crime code free and have only one exit. But i think changing it from guaranteed death to potential death is enough to get many more people to use them. Maybe some of the much MUCH more expensive places should have crime-cod in the apartments to reflect hired security.
Compounds are already codedly easier to get into than they should be by people who aren't supposed to be there. Making them
less secure is something I think would have a hugely detrimental effect on the game. I think we've already seen what happens when sneaky characters go a bit too far with apartments. The security of a clan compound is one of a few very important, real benefits that is matched (mostly) codedly to its IC value. It's an OOC and IC draw towards clans that matches these powerful organizations' place in the game. It's entirely ICly appropriate and expected for it to be a really risky endeavor to try and sneak into, and then out of a compound.
It's already too easy to just rely on the code to do this. Making it even easier is going to drive players out of clans when the inevitable abuse happens more than it already does, and perhaps even off the game. Stealthy, sneaky characters and the ways they take advantage of those skills are an important, meaningful part of the game, but they're one of the roles that has a huge potential to negatively impact the experience of other players when not played in a well-considered manner.
This idea that clan compounds being as safe as they ICly should be stagnates the game is puzzling to me when my experience is that the opposite is true. When you don't have a place that can't be looted at the whims of some skilled up stealth PC, where you can't have some expectation of talking without being overheard, suddenly long terms plots become a lot more difficult and frustrating. Failure and struggle are a part of the game but when there's too much of it, particularly due to invisible forces you can do nothing to prevent and little to nothing to engage with after the fact, it really grinds down on the motivation to put in the effort to actually do things of consequence.
Screwing over clan security further is going to hurt the potential for plots that aren't 'screw over/steal from clan X'. It'll take away a really strong reason to be in a clan that's currently reflected both IC and codedly, when so few of the IC reasons to be in a clan are reflected as strongly as they should be. It could drive players out of clans, out of that kind of group gameplay, and even potentially off the game.
The more potential for abuse there is and the more actual abuse there is, the harder it is to trust that when something does happen it was done in an appropriate manner. I think trust is a huge factor in this kind of thing on both sides. We need to be able to trust other players to be RPing responsibly when it comes to using these skills, and we need to trust other players to be reacting
to stealth appropriately as well. Otherwise things get pushed towards relying more and more on the code to try and avoid other peoples (perhaps just perceived) misuse of coded mechanics. That's not fun, and I don't think it's good for the game - even if it is inevitable to some extent. We need to err on the side of making stealth/sneak/steal/etc harder to abuse in my opinion when we do balance things. Even if nine out of ten times this kind of RP is done in a fantastic manner, that one out of ten times the experience goes horribly has the potential to make all those other times it's done wonderfully be more suspect. The players that engage in this RP well deserve better than to have their every attempt scrutinized with OOC suspicion, but the more awful experiences people have with it and the more awful those experiences are, the less they may be willing to engage with it in an open-minded manner - and it's justified not wanting to risk getting screwed over in an immersion-breaking manner.
Clan compounds are easy enough to get into as they are, and the risks in doing so are already milder than makes sense IC. It should be a risky endeavor, and if you feel like you should be able to slip in with virtual traffic and you think doing so will create fun for the game, arrange a plot with staff. You know what another great way to spy on a clan is? Join it. This sort of thing should be incredibly risky to any character trying it in this harsh, unforgiving world, not a common criminal activity.
@9001. I don't fully disagree with you but a couple things:
- In my idea all your virtual stuff clan/PC would remain safe from thieves. Only stuff on your persons is still subject to normal risk found just about anywhere else.
- Killing someone in a compound is probably the worst idea as it should lead to a bounty so high everyone will want a piece of you. Basically even if you succeed in killing someone there and you get away from all the guard that are more condense then in a tavern, you'll still be very easily identified. At the very least you will very likely receive justice vs getting killed in an apartment.
- The big secrets are still often safe within emails between sponsored roles and staff, as well as many sponsored roles have offices they can take meetings to which adds that extra layer of protection.
That said I personally am okay with PC targeting each others plots rather then just having to resort to kill the other PC. Plot having a chance to fail because PC are investing time in watching and listening to you from the shadows doesn't seem so bad to me. This is actually what I hoped would be Tuluk's theme would be rather than the feeling that all plots would fail with certainty because their templars knew everything.
@Dresan
I'm going to tackle your points a bit out of order.
Quote from: Dresan on May 20, 2020, 06:58:32 PMThat said I personally am okay with PC targeting each others plots rather then just having to resort to kill the other PC. Plot having a chance to fail because PC are investing time in watching and listening to you from the shadows doesn't seem so bad to me.
I agree with the first part of that 110%. I want more avenues for conflict that aren't immediately jumping to 'how do I kill this character', from every angle. The second part is where things get more complicated. The amount of time invested in things doesn't matter to me if it just makes no sense in the first place. This gets into the question of what does it
mean to sneak and hide. What's happening virtually to justify the coded effects? If you're on a busy street, blending into the crowds is a thing. Or in a crowded tavern. And if someone notices you despite this, they're noticing that you're
trying to be inconspicuous, and failing.
In a clan compound, however, what's supposed to be happening? Are you wearing clan livery and acting in a way that's not suspicious in that environment? Or are you dressed head to toe in stealth gear, sticking out like a store thumb? Are you hanging around a table, listening to conversations? Hiding under it? There are NPCs and vNPCs doing their own business in clans... but they're doing things that should make sense. I have come down hard on people hiding/sneaking in clans I have leadership positions in for hiding and sneaking about, after being berated for doing it myself.
It's like a (somewhat) less absurd version of managing to shadow someone into an apartment and remain hidden. Is it codedly possible? Yes. Does it make any sense to be able to get through the door behind someone unnoticed, and then cling to the ceiling like some kind of elf ninja to avoid detection? Not so much. Do you really think your PC isn't going to stick out in a clan compound, particularly if they're lingering or rummaging through things they don't seem to have any reason to be. I don't see a situation where being able to get away with this using code alone makes any sense.
I don't want my plots to be messed with because someone has a high level of hide and is essentially ignoring the virtual world and what it ICly means to use the hide and sneak skills. I'll reiterate those skills aren't always used with disregard for what sense it makes. I'd even wager that most of the time their use is reasonable enough. You're not encouraging plotting and RP by opening up clans to be infiltrated in a more cavalier manner. You're just encouraging plotting to be stifled and happen over Ways. And for anyone hiding in compounds to be attacked. Anyone acting suspicious in a sneaky manner in a compound
should be attacked, especially if your clan is unrealistically lax about gate security. This just (reasonably) encourages more seeking out and smashing of stealthed PCs, and more unrealistic sneaking to avoid that.
I don't see this as realistic, engaging, or interesting interference with plots. It's just frustrating, immersion breaking, and draining.
Quote
In my idea all your virtual stuff clan/PC would remain safe from thieves. Only stuff on your persons is still subject to normal risk found just about anywhere else.
A clan compound isn't just anywhere else though, for the reasons outlined above. Again, this goes in to what it means ICly to be doing something like stealing. It's the difference between someone bumping into on the street and lifting a pouch off your belt and some out of place figure in a dark cloak lingering by your bunk, picking through your pack or things. Even if they're disguised in clan livery, it's still a wholly different environment.
I think anyone who wants to pull that off is welcome to coordinate with staff.
Quote
Killing someone in a compound is probably the worst idea as it should lead to a bounty so high everyone will want a piece of you. Basically even if you succeed in killing someone there and you get away from all the guard that are more condense then in a tavern, you'll still be very easily identified. At the very least you will very likely receive justice vs getting killed in an apartment.
Killing someone in a compound you're an intruder in should get you ganked, unless you managed to pull it off somewhere private.
Quote
The big secrets are still often safe within emails between sponsored roles and staff, as well as many sponsored roles have offices they can take meetings to which adds that extra layer of protection.
Encouraging leadership roles to be even more stingy with secrets and plot information is going to make the game less engaging, not more. If you're suggesting that some rooms don't allow hiding, and reflect the impossibility of that in their room description, I'm all for it. Otherwise, we still have the issue of hide being abused as invisibility. Driving every even somewhat sensitive conversation into these secure rooms
is something that I think will stagnate the game further.
P.S. I know I'm opposing you on almost every point here, but I do appreciate that your willingness to debate them and highlight our differing perspectives.
Let us not get into a deep discussion about game play mechanics since for ever reason you may have about its 'realism', someone else can come up with a counter to the effect that it all turns into a hyperbole.
I don't disagree that clans should offer some of the benefits it current does in full, but i would sincerely suggest staff review what level of commitment(time) people should be giving to clans to begin receiving the benefits that they do. Some clans do not need the level of protection they get for ALL its members from day 1, nor should they be giving all its members a place to hang out outside of work. Even communal sleeping areas should probably be something for full members not every dirty new recruit depending on the job they will be doing.
The amount clan members get for free because its collecting dust somewhere in the compound should be reviewed.
These places amass such huge amount of goods that there is often no longer any need for members to earn their own shit. This is one of the reasons I feel the game needs to be more aggressive with decay. If it isn't on a PC and instead just sitting in one of these storehouses, it should begin slowly decaying and breaking down. Or be like shops someone coming in everyone once in a while and take it away to making use of it.
The lack of need for anything is really detrimental and reduces interactions for PC. Right now there is very little opportunity to get to those secrets,whether through stealth or bribes. I would rather have people be stingy but still have an opportunity rather than have no opportunity at all.
Great Merchant (Flop)House.
Since nobody employs rando hunters anymore, there is now a communal building that all recruit crafters/aides of the House congregate in. It provides a modicum of security, but not the gate + guard of the typical compound. Base it off the Tuluki tattoo code, but have it look for an item of clothing, perhaps? Something where you need a particular item in order to get by the front desk area, but also easily abuseable by those who can sneak/hide/acquire that item themselves.
If you can prove yourself an asset to the House, they let you in the Compound as a full member. Until then, use the Flophouse. Don't use the Flophouse. Buy an apartment, they don't care.
I think the view of clans today are still polluted by the fact that years ago being in a clan sucked compared to being indy.
During this era:
- Tuluk was in full swing and you could get involved with political plots with joining clans
- Rangers ruled the world and thieves sucked.
- Indies were richer than clan members
- Some were very respected and had backing with their noble patron.
Allanak is a different beast that doesn't support or encourage indies like Tuluk did. Heck just a couple years back you couldn't sell a chalton hide with salarr/byn making sure you weren't stepping on their toes. Back before the war there were two indie shops in tuluk competing and hiring people.
Indies in allanak feel like walking targets just waiting for their day to be crushed. Stealth actually matters now too as much as bash, archery,ride and disarm.
Additionally progression in any game is important for long term fun. Wealth, power and social status should be things earned with time, if not it should come with appropriate risk. The pendulum basically skewed too far the other way now with clans offering way to much as soon as you join.
Quote from: Dresan on May 21, 2020, 09:07:45 AMThe amount clan members get for free because its collecting dust somewhere in the compound should be reviewed.
These places amass such huge amount of goods that there is often no longer any need for members to earn their own shit.
I think this is something to be addressed by leader PCs in clans. Things accumulate, and there are good reasons to deal with that clutter. It makes sense for the people in clans to decide what's worth the space it's taking up, and what isn't. And how much should be earned by new hires, and what should be given. How this should work should depend on the clan itself, and the leadership style of whoever's running things. Organically driven need for things is fun. Forcing it for the sake of it is just adding to the grind.
I could say more on the topic, but this is already getting to be a bit of a derail.
Quote from: Riev on May 21, 2020, 09:55:10 AM
Great Merchant (Flop)House.
I like this idea. It makes sense to me ICly that people need to prove themselves a bit before getting access to the more secure area. My concerns would be that people are already generally unimpressed with a clan's coded benefits despite the IC draw they should be, and the splitting up of the clan leading to less interaction with the newer members, and I wonder if it'll make GMHs less newbie friendly. I think GMH clans should be a great place for new players to get acclimated to the game.
Quote from: 9001 on May 21, 2020, 01:03:49 PM
I think this is something to be addressed by leader PCs in clans.
In the same way you don't agree stealth 'reasoning' should be left in the hands of player due to that 10%, I don't agree this should be left with the player either even if they are sponsored.
But I agree the conversation has derailed a bit. Good discussion though.
Quote from: Dresan on May 21, 2020, 03:16:30 PMIn the same way you don't agree stealth 'reasoning' should be left in the hands of player due to that 10%.
This is not what I said, and misrepresenting my point. I think it is up to players to determine when and how the use of their skills is reasonable, but at the same time when it comes to what is codedly possible and how easy it is, we need to err more on the side of protecting from abuse and misuse on that kind of thing when it comes to weighing the balance of things.
Okay. Now I'm done on this topic, at least on this thread. Just wanted to make sure my point wasn't misunderstood there.
'Carry' command. Similar to subdue, but for a willing 'victim'.
Quote
carry miffy
You move to pick up a green-eyed person.
A green-eyed person lets you carry them.
/
A green-eyed person refuses to let you pick them up.
Quote
A tall person would like to pick you up, do you accept?
yes
You get picked up by a tall person.
/
no
You refuse to be carried.
Quote
setdown miffy
A tall person puts a green-eyed person down.
Changes out the 'walk' text (to '<carried> is carried by <carrier> in from the east') and ldesc is altered (to '<carried> is here, being carried by <carrier>').
Doesn't flag crimcode like subdue does (since it requires at least OOC compliance).
If carrier is unconscious, automatically accepts.
Perfect for carrying your lovely lady/gent around your apartment, for carrying your injured sergeant to a medic after she got her leg bitten off by megafauna, or for carrying your latest recruit home when he got black-out drunk in the Gaj.
Subdue is always so...dodgy to use for these things (because crimcode doesn't discriminate!), and it'd be nice to not be codedly walking (ruins immersion!). Subdue is great...but this covers the other reasons someone might want to haul another person around in a more peaceful and careful manner!
Blurb should be simple (not necessarily as above, but similar), to allow for carrying in bridal-carries, fireman's lifts, or just two burly troopers slinging a drunk runner between their shoulders. Nothing too 'cute', basically!
Not sure about the 'setdown', could just toggle 'carry' to drop them? Open to suggestions for that!
Obviously only one person able to carry another. Should be close enough to subdue to be not horrible to pillage it for easy code parts (mebe?)
110% would PK six people for this addition ;D
Addition of a "not" clause to "get", "put", "drop", "junk" etc.
Example:
> get all.branch not.thorny
> put all.branch bag not.thorny
> junk all not.branch
Do you see where I'm going with this?
Thoughts? :)
Quote from: Helloworld on May 22, 2020, 02:44:23 AM
Addition of a "not" clause to "get", "put", "drop", "junk" etc.
Example:
> get all.branch not.thorny
> put all.branch bag not.thorny
> junk all not.branch
Do you see where I'm going with this?
Thoughts? :)
Love it! Though my preferred syntax would work it in with the keywords, just with a symbol preceding it like '!'.
'get all.dye.!red bag' or 'get all.!red.dye bag' would get all dyes that don't have the red keyword from a bag.
Perhaps the more natural language approach in your post is more intuitive for most people, though.
Not to detract since I do like the carry idea. But I thought this thread wasn't about purely coded ideas.
Mind you all the ideas require some coding at some point but perhaps the carry idea should be moved to its own thread in coding section.
I was actually thinking of putting this thread on coding or general discussion for a long time. However, its not so much of ideas as some suggestions.
The Wisdom stat...... :(
I don't think I need to go into the utter value of strength these days, or agility which often compete for first or second priority. Both of these are important to combat or stealth character both of which have quite a bit of popularity these days. Endurance often is a healthy second at times too, if you get one shot you can only blame yourself for not prioritizing this stat higher.
From this perspective alone we can see that wisdom is a bit lacking. However, having played with a super high wisdom (elf) character a while ago I am pretty disappointed with what this stat did for my character compared to the benefits of any other stat. The main advantage of high wisdom is supposed to be learning faster. The main problem is that the way it does this is that in my opinion it is promoting twinking,unless you are spamming your skill way more often this benefit is lost. Even this benefit for combat roles has diminished with the bonuses found for training in clans.
The benefits high wisdom provides to perception skills is painfully disappointing. Assuming no other bonus, you won't be spotting a player that has prioritized agility that easily with scan, listen is even worse in this regard. Watch seems to be amazing all on its own. In general i am fine with this as I believe strong stealth brings a lot to the game though.
I have seen one cool thing come out of having high wisdom but its a chance encounter that only happened once since i started playing this game.
To a point skills trump stats, but that doesn't mean stats don't matter. This is actually a good thing in our game because we have the option of prioritizing stats. Someone who prioritized agility and endurance over strength has different ability and advantages over someone who prioritized strength and endurance. That is a good thing, it adds variety, and a need to used varied gear and play styles even within the same classes. An aide that prioritize endurance can probably an arrow to the neck which would kill the rough bynner who prioritized strength and agility. This adds great variety to the game's encounters and in the way the game is experienced.
Unfortunately, the fact that wisdom is so lackluster diminishes that flavor and variety to the game.
Some ideas to make wisdom a more tempting stat to prioritize over strength or agility (at the very least endurance):
- wisdom could add +skill bonus to skills when successful in the same way a piece of gear might.
- wisdom could in-prove chances of critical success for some skills or combat or even landing poison. Agility helps you hit,strength helps you hit harder, wisdom could help you hit better, endurance helps you survive it all.
- Wisdom should no longer help people learn as often. Instead it should helps you learn more with every failure. Giving you an increasing chance to learn x2 or x3 times more
- The bonus from gear and environment could be boosted by wisdom providing 0/50/100/150/200 percent more bonus depending on wisdom.
Quote from: Dresan on May 22, 2020, 10:10:26 AM
...
The Wisdom stat......
The thing about stat modifications to existing skills and other coded functions is ...
How can I, as a player, make my character increase their stats? There is nothing you can do within the game to forcefully increase a stat point permanently.
So it becomes - there is something about my character that I cannot change, that is preventing me from succeeding at something I want to.
I feel we would need to be very careful with
what we want to modify when it comes to perks based on a something we can't really adjust after the fact. That's why RPG games usually allow character to adjust their base stats as they progress, and allow the players to pick what stats they want to increase.
I believe the ability to prioritize stats is sufficient enough for this particular game since PCs die/store all the time.
I'm not sure about the rest of the suggestions with wisdom, but I do really like changing wisdom so that it increases the amount you learn each time instead of changing how often you learn. As it is, characters with high wisdom will only gain some of the benefits of it if they have extended playtimes. I know some skills don't work that way, but most of them do.
Personally I'd rather just say: You can get one skill bump a day. The amount you get from that bump is based on a combination of your wisdom stat and whether the skill is a fast-raise or slow-raise skill.
Quote from: Shabago
"Outside the Known" force.
This has likewise been something to come up a few times on staff-side chatter. As a general rule, the team seems agreeable to the idea on paper, much like some of you in the player base at large. It has it's appeal and a pretty decent list of pro's. There are some cons attached to it as well.
Q: Why were they never mentioned anywhere in game legend? A: They were outside of the Known!
Q: Ok, if outside of the Known, how are they getting into the known? A: Skimmers over the silt! (example)
Q: Ah, but the silt in enclosed by cliffs - where are they getting through? A: An earthquake broke a hole?
Q: Ok, so an event that never occurred in game happened off screen allowing this new race? How do players interact with them? A: Players can set sail to their homeland or see them when they come ashore, in angry/peaceful fashion?
Q: So, an area even further out than Tuluk that requires mass building, and would take a big chunk away from condensed play zones and thus, utterly eliminate the point of Tuluk's closure?
A: This is awkward.
Tongue in cheek, obviously, but I imagine you all get what I'm driving at. "New race" out of nowhere in the current setting would be real jarring/senseless on the continuing story of the game as a whole. Adding one 'outside' the Known defeats the purpose of the condensed play-area for interaction.
Yes, absolutely there are ways around said cons/hurdles and we've continued to speak on them staff side. Again, pros and cons to the various suggestions.
Short answer - Maybe.
I think it's possible to have the story develop in such a way as not to be jarring. Doesn't even have to involve a new race's entry into the narrative. Mantises have been somewhat absent for a while. Perhaps something going on in their neck of the woods pushes them out into the playable races territories? Not as much building needed (I can only guess though).
Interestingly I actually think this kind of event would further condense the player base, people would gather to the conflict and story and have to rely on each other more.
Possible reason for the change in their cultural behaviour (ingress into the played territories) could be due to a technological innovation of some kind. Not sure what fits but perhaps the wheel? Domestication (or primordial version of the same, think symbiosis).
People's thoughts? More I think about the mantis idea actually, the more I see its merits.
I mean, we have other races that are canon that only a handful of people have ever seen or heard about. I'm thinking about a specific one that had a ton of plot stuff a decade ago. Some of this stuff already exists, I don't see why we'd need to make up brand new ones. But whatever, I honestly think we and staff take this game FAR too seriously sometimes.
Why can't we have races from beyond the Known show up? Because we ourselves have painted us into this corner with our strict adherence to rules we made up as a community. Just let loose a bit, y'know?
Halflings Riding Mantises!!
Quote from: Shabago
Tongue in cheek, obviously, but I imagine you all get what I'm driving at. "New race" out of nowhere in the current setting would be real jarring/senseless on the continuing story of the game as a whole. Adding one 'outside' the Known defeats the purpose of the condensed play-area for interaction.
You put 'new race' in scare quotes, so I know you know...it isn't necessarily about a 'new race' so much as as strange culture, and a hint at a wider world beyond that which is Known.
Just as with the random dungeons, there's a lot of places that exist virtually in the game, that we cannot go to or enter. There must be rooms on the game map that simply end. Though it would be plausible in the narrative for a character to continue exploring, we collectively make the decision to say, "The narrative focus is here, not there."
There have been forces from Beyond invading the Known, before. When there's a [elelmental/demon/space-kank] attack, nobody thinks that means we have to take the fight into their home plane, and now all of the sudden there has to be three city-state sized settlements ready to go in the Elemental Plane of [whatever].
Maybe if PCs make the arduous trek to the homelands of the invaders, they get stored for a couple RL years to account for the distance and difficulty of the trip.
Someone might say, "Well, my silly mage has goofy powers that lets them go places very fast." To which I say, a) the Known might be special for the strength of elemental magic in the vicinity. Outside the Known could be magic-dead, and without water, for hundreds of thousands of leagues, until you reach the next Oasis. And b) those goofy powers cheapen exploration, and therefore probably shouldn't exist in the first place.
...
Brings up the idea that the invaders might the survivors of an Oasis that was defiled to death. A plotline like that would emphasis the apocalyptic theme of Arm, which is often missing in action.
Quote from: number13 on May 22, 2020, 07:42:12 PM
A plotline like that would emphasis the apocalyptic theme of Arm.
I think this ^ applies in general to the entire idea of a force/antagonist/invasion originating outside the commonly travel places of the known. Stability ought really to be a very short lived phenomenon.
A while ago there was a thread on criminal RP that had me thinking about how to help it be something that can be engaged in without escalating to PK fests. One problem was that 'small' mistakes could be ruinous to characters once people got a glimpse of their descriptions. So what about...
Master Crafted Disguises
Have there be an extended subclass with the 'disguise' skill. Perhaps this can only be paired with certain other main guilds. Getting the right balance on this kind of thing would be tricky, but I think it could add more ability to engage in certain kinds of RP on a level that doesn't escalate quite as suddenly as it currently does with the right checks and balances.
A disguise would change your short description and main description when worn. Disguises are Master Crafted to provide oversight and to put a limit on how often they can be changed. Perhaps it'd be something that can only be put in for every 2 IC years, rather than one. A disguise cannot be used by someone who didn't Master Craft it - it represents the effort in disguising behavior and mannerisms, not just appearance. A disguise shouldn't radically alter the appearance of the character, either, and should obviously be an attempt to hide the real appearance, paired with gear. It wouldn't be an attempt to appear as another person, just to avoid giving away identifying details. If your character is a hulking, muscle-bound dwarf, there should still be references to that, even if you don't the exact same words. You'd only be able to have one disguise at a time, and master crafting a new one means you can't use the old one anymore.
Along with the description and gear (or type of gear) intended to be used for the disguise, you'd submit some details about your real description that can 'leak', particularly at lower levels of disguise. This means the more you interact with someone in disguise, the more risk of them learning small details about you there is.
Example PC:
The hulking, muscle-bound dwarf
This dwarf's face and hairless head bear numerous scars from a life of violence, few seeming to have cleanly healed, showing up starkly on his pale skin. His brown eyes are wide-set and bloodshot. This dwarf is almost absurdly muscle-bound and hulking.
Example Disguise Application:
the bulky, dark-smeared dwarf
Very little of this short, extremely bulky figure isn't wrapped up in dark, grimy cloth. What little skin is showing under its hood seems to have charcoal or kohl smeared over it, or some other dark substance. A hint of brown can be seen in its squinty eyes.
Leakable details:
Badly healed scars are visible under the dark substance smeared on this dwarf's face.
The bulkiness of its figure is due to an abundance of hulking muscles.
Its eyes seem perpetually bloodshot.
Its skin is pale under the dark substance smeared over it.
More effort would be put into the descriptions, of course, but I wanted to give examples of how I was thinking this would work. Carefully used, I think a disguise could allow certain PCs to interact with people while hiding their identity. Used too liberally, people would begin to pick up on too many identifying details. Staff oversight would make sure that the disguise makes sense and has justification - details like hulking muscles being adequately covered by being called bulky with a thick cloak and cloth obscuring the reason for that bulk, or deliberately squinting hiding a detail like bloodshot eyes or perhaps their color.
Disguises should be able to be removed by other people if you're subdued or knocked out, as well, and should have a high standard of RP attached to them. If your disguise uses kohl and a dark cloak, you should have those items even if they're not codedly required when you 'put on' your disguise, and care should be taken in whether or not wearing particular armor/items/weapons makes sense in it.
I could talk more on details and checks and balances, but I'm curious what other people think of the feasibility of this in play.
I used to think disguise was a good idea. At the very least that it should be tied to skills like backstab, or hide etc..
However, having seen examples in game of people just not caring whether you know its them or not, the sheer freedom it gives needs to continue to cost what it currently does to achieve.
Instead of disguises I rather see rinth, luirs and redstorm (maybe morins) become places where if someone screws up in one location they can go start a productive life somewhere else.
I don't think disguises will prevent PKs instead i think it will make people that normally wouldn't attempt them a lot more times with less concern if they fail.
Hm. That is a very valid concern.
I'd like to see the skills helpfiles reference what classes/subclasses get the skill in question. Like a new subcategory "Requisite:" or "Requirement:"
I would like to see more helpfile in the same way magick help files work. Maybe a little indicator that notifies a new help-file is now available to you.
For example if you have brew or poison these help-files or even more extensive help-files could become available to you. Maybe assessing herbs would provide more information on what help file to read.
Basically the more information the game provides in a natural way without the need of resorting to OOC chat or finding PC run by a staff member the better who may need to dig up through historical records the better.
Just to add to the previous idea mentioned, with brew being so much fun I would love to see magickal crafting too.
Low power magickal potion, weapons, even armor in particular seems like the subtle low level magick i would love to see more of in this game rather than death ray throwing full mages.
This things would generate so much RP from the people who sell it, to the people who want to use it, to the people who want to find the criminals who use it. After all you are probably not going to be able to keep this stuff in a clan locker without getting in trouble. Just using this stuff should label you a mage.
A useful money sink that has risk and RP involved for everyone. It is what I wish spice could be in the game but unfortunately isn't.
Here are some ideas I have. Certain parts of the game I am a little out of touch, and such ideas may already be incorporated anyway, which is great. I didn't read through all the thread so I might be doubling up on ideas as well.
House Oash
----------
Their primary source of income comes from Ocotillo wines. Let's get Oashi nobles and servants focused on this actual task, instead of Ocotillo wine and spirits just arriving out of thin air via virtual NPCS. The Oash Shop of Fine Wines could become a PC supplied shop. If the Oash nobility become lazy and ignore keeping up stock, then I'm sure the other nobility would become quite upset, and their virtual income could be severely reduced. Have much of their income non virtual and relied on by shop sales. This would allow for the the Oashi Elite clan to be open once more. Oashi nobles would require a retinue of Oashi Elite as protection, as well as needing T'zai Byn escorts. Create a vineyard sector under forage, keeping the lower end wine leaves easily able to find, and having the higher end leaves very rare like emeralds or diamonds. After you have the materials, use the same code to brew other alcohols and drinks with a still. Make the whole process PC if possible.
House Tor
---------
House Tor is now a small, semi-professional army, the Tor Legion, or just keep calling them the Tor Scorpions. You need to introduce an enemy, old or new, that actually challenges the Southlands region. Establish front lines, a border, assign them a small fort to live in, and the Tor Legion is the shield against this enemy. They are only small in number, so obviously there will be holes the enemy can slip through and attack closer to Allanak. There's ten total villages I believe, 7 virtual. Make a few more of them less virtual, and more villages can be raided, defended, and so on, so the soldiers don't feel like they are just protecting sand. Mantis, Kryl, or the Gith are great enemies and can amass in large numbers, and when you kill them there's no worry about players being able to amass large amounts of loot. If you want to play a full blooded soldier, this is the role for you. There's many ways an enemy can surface and why there's a need to fight with such an enemy. E.g Silt Mongrels. A race of humanoids that have crossed the vast silt sea from beyond and have crashed a large ship on the edge of the Known, and are warlike and wanting to settle in the Southlands and plunder it's resources.
Scripts can be used to have these hostile forces raid the Southlands, so player patrols can randomly come across them, and won't need staff to animate and harass them. One Tor PC would act as Warlord or Warlady in command of the PC unit, with a Lord Marshal NPC as overall commander, and another PC would play political and run the Academy in Allanak. All Tor family would be an officer in the Tor Legion, and they may rotate between positions.
A new degree could be announced by the Templarate that any criminals in Allanak that may face death in the pit or the arena that is not charged with treason or magick, may chose to join the Tor Legion instead as a slave soldier. They get a slave mark and assigned a unit. Borsail may get to broker the deal. If they chose to desert, they become outlaws. They don't get force stored, call in the Borsail Wyverns, or even backdoor shady contacts such as the Guild to hunt these people down and see them executed.
House Tor would not get crimeflag immune. The Arm of the Dragon still keeps it's position as the city watch, and the Templars still enforce the law. War ministry templars probably have a rank in the Tor army, but otherwise the region of the Fort and Tor's front line is under Tor's command. The Tor Legion duties should not interfere with work that the Byn does. Guard missions, escorts, big hunts, spider nest clearings, whatever they are doing, the Tor Scorpions shouldn't be disrupting Byn business and profit. While there might be some comradery in the Byn, they are still scummy mercenaries, and it's nothing like the RP of being totally devoted to one's mission, and the sense of duty a soldier feels, and serving and dying with honour as a soldier, or managing to survive and live to become an old hero.
House Borsail
-------------
I'm not very familiar how the gladiators were handled. I really enjoyed interacting with the gladiators however, and the days I could get to the arena events, I liked. If we can't get PC gladiators back, let's at least get back to bi-weekly arena fights. How? Borsail should be managing the arena. Bring back the Wyvern clan. The Wyverns could operate as semi gladiator/guards/beast-wranglers. 3-5 PC's, can go out hunting down animals with the caged wagon and capture them, and then fight them for the crowd. Any escaped slaves from the Tor legion could be thrown into the arena as well. Borsail nobles might want to mix things up and could hire the Byn to fight, or other clans may wish to show off their prowess in attempt to bolster recruitment by showing how dominant they are. Also, maybe each Borsail junior noble PC is able to auction one NPC slave every two years, and more distinguished get to do one every year, etc.
House Fale
----------
Clan specific crafts for streamers, and party like decorations. So if you are hosting an event, you would definately want a Fale to spice it up in a unique way other PC's can't. I know it's been tried by PC's in the past, but I would develop a documented Fale Bard clan within House Fale. There's so much that can be taken from the Bards of the Poets circle and the way Winrothol were dedicated to the Arts. Towards the end of Tuluk I had some amazing PC's in Winrothol such as Tallis and Flaire who did some great performances, and I'd love to see such things in Allanak mid-high class life.
The Labyrinth and the Guild
---------------------------
Move the Screaming Mantis to a more central location so it is more accessible to outsiders, at the end of the entrance path. Think of the Screaming Mantis as the Continental from John Wick now, run by the Guild. No killing is allowed, or stealing in the tavern, without facing major consequences. Add secure apartments above with no windows, and the only roof access allowed by NPC guards is by having a clan membership. Food and alcohol will be supplied entirely by PC's. The NPC bartender will only sell what the PC's stock it with. Rat kabobs, roasted sewer worms, all sorts of scum food, unless there's a good PC cook to arrange better foods. Add a makeshift still, and some ingredient only found in the rinth that can make moonshine, perhaps this moonshine also has a special aphrodisiac effect similar to zharal, but with actual coded messages to enhance the experience. It could cause a demand and a reason for people to want to sneak to the Screaming Mantis besides spice and shady dealings. I would also add a fighting pit for fighting and betting, and add a pleasure den. Remember in the Sanctuary in Tuluk where NPC's would be scripted at certain times to come out and dance? This could be done to the Mantis. Maybe pay a small fee and a dancer will strip for you. If I had any sort of low class character I'd be here all the time hanging out.
Is Spice too expensive? Do people feel the benefits outweigh the risk and the cost? War spice seems powerful enough, but I think the other spices could do with a bit of a buff. If a spice added 1 or 2 endurance, is that really worth while x amount of coins? 4 points on the other hand. Wow. Should the duration be a bit longer even? I just don't know if people value spice enough to cause the demand for the Guild the way it is currently.
I'm trying to come up with activities to keep the guild fun and interesting, without just killing Amos or stealing everything from his apartment cause he's bored. So the Guild now has the Screaming Mantis as part of their responsibility to manage, another thing would be a pawn shop, run by a Fence PC. Maybe a backroom for clanned members allows access to a Akir Sajir fence, selling their clan gear and specialised black market goods. Gives value to membership and working your way up the chain.
I know when I ran the Lia-Kavair Thieves Guild on Harshlands there was a recruit safehouse, a senior member safehouse, a sewer safehouse, a village safehouse just outside of the city, and others in distance unplayable cities just incase we travelled. We had threats in the sewers to deal with, sewer blobs that were very nasty and killed many, but we could extract poison from, so it was worth us being down there hunting them, not just killing them randomly to skill boost. We also faced undead down there all the time and it was fun killing them, and we were actually helping protect the city from a far greater evil that people had no idea about on the surface. Open up a few more accessible sewer entrances outside the rinth, if common people wish to go down there, that's there risk. Be great to see some sorcerer or powerful nilazi NPC set up in the sewers. It could certainly demand action from the Guild as it is interrupting the smuggle of spice into Allanak.
Clan Population
---------------
Most noble houses have a max of 2 PCs. Currently there is Borsail, and Oash open, and I thought it was Jal, but on the webpage is says Fale, and Jal is closed. Add 3 Templars, that is only 9 noble PCs. We had about 200 unique logins. I get the impression people seem to think we are top heavy, but I think it's quite the opposite. These players are the movers and shakers, and I feel to help keep them going, they need more people in their caste to interact with, as allies or enemies. Same goes for the merchant family. They are the backbone of the middle class, and the more GMH who can attend parties and stir up business and create plots the better it is for the game. I have fond memories as Kradj Kurac sitting at gatherings with Overseer Siamaca Kadius and Crew Leader Kevak Salarr. They were similar in social standing and it was acceptable.
These are the numbers I'd go with. Or if Jal is closed, have 3 in each noble house.
2 Borsail
2 Oash
2 Tor
2 Fale
2 Jal
3 Templar
=13
3 Salarr Family
3 Kadius Family
3 Kurac Family
1 Terash Family
=10
Total=23
Rewards
-------
Better tiered rewards and opportunities for PC's with wealth and title. E.g 1st rank noble gets a 1 room bedroom. Gets promoted now has a 2 room bedroom. 3rd rank noble gets 2 aides now, a private bathroom, able to purchase a small carriage as transport around the city, etc. Same goes for merchant family members with more luxurious living quarters or offices. Independants rich enough able to lease townhouses from the Ministry Templars and so on. We just need more money sinks I feel.
That's my two cents.
The only change to spice it needs are:
- It needs to last way longer. (2 IC days at least)
- Make snorting or smoking it an hemote that doesn't break hide.
- increase the prices of war-spice accordingly(100-200sid)
Additionally militia/templars should crack down on the city/clans to ensure the laws against it are being enforced. It doesn't necessarily need to be stronger, but there should definitely be a difference from the stuff gathered on the ground and the refined stuff kurac sells.
Editted to add: I think spice you can find should probably work as it does now. Spice kurac refines should work like the above with the right price tag.
I definitely don't fully understand the rinth but that change to the mantis doesn't sound at all feasible. There's a very good reason why it is where it is. If you want strippers/a rintharena then there's ample opportunity to make that happen with minimal long-term staff intervention.
Plot-wise I think it would be great to see the game continue to move away from Dark Sun elements and mythos.
Don't get me wrong, this game will always been heavily influenced by dark sun. Outside of Armageddon2 we will always have the playable races, most which are unique to dark sun. However, we could still slowly do away with a lot of terminology and lore that is often only known to staff anyways.
I think it might be more interesting to see return of undead/demon(the salt flats feel a bit empty) plot lines vs anything to do with dragon/dragonthralls. It might also be nice to slowly see the rebranding of several things such as templars, sorcery and sorcerer king to continue making this game unique. The class and function would not disappear, rather just the way they are references within the game as game plots unfold over the years.
Evilone,
I love all of your ideas, and keep them coming. One thing is, there use to be a bar on the Road of Slaves for that purpose over a decade, maybe two, ago that was used for that exact purpose. I do agree, the Mantis should be in a more central location, but there should be some amount of risk for an outsider coming there to buy "drugs" or whatever it is, much like any shady part of town.
Quote from: Pew Pew on May 26, 2020, 10:56:43 AM
Evilone,
I love all of your ideas, and keep them coming. One thing is, there use to be a bar on the Road of Slaves for that purpose over a decade, maybe two, ago that was used for that exact purpose. I do agree, the Mantis should be in a more central location, but there should be some amount of risk for an outsider coming there to buy "drugs" or whatever it is, much like any shady part of town.
I remember that. I think that was the Rinth bar back then, the others were added later. Maybe the mantis was around, but I can't remember it.
Strangle
Using this command, a Player Character will begin strangling another Player Character.
In order to strangle a Player Character, PC A must successfully subdue PC B. After a successful subdue attempt, PC A must type "strangle" or "strangle PC B" to begin strangling.
While strangled, PC B will suffer a continued loss of stun points until rendered unconscious.
While strangled, PC B will suffer a penalty to all verbal communication commands, such as "say" "shout" "tell" "ask," etc. Every attempt to verbally communicate, successful or unsuccessful, will result in an increased loss of stun points to reflect a victim's loss of breath and fighting against their attacker.
At any time, PC B may attempt to break out of the strangulation attempt by typing "flee self," as they would to break out of being subdued. A successful attempt to break loose will result in PC B being freed of the attempted strangulation and subdued status.
Unconscious PCs may be strangled without first needing to be subdued. Typing "strangle PC" will result in both a check to subdue the target and begin strangulation. At which point, if the PC undergoing strangulation has a positive current stun point value, they will awaken and be able to attempt to escape.
If the PC being strangled has 0 or less current stun points, they will begin to loos HP until the PC strangling them is halted or death occurs.
A PC performing strangulation is able to cease their attempt at any time by typing "stop strangle" at any time while they have another PC subdued and being strangled. This will halt the strangulation attempt but not release the subdued PC. The PC who has stopped being strangled may then make use of verbal communication commands as normal.
Quote from: Pale Horse on May 26, 2020, 05:49:48 PM
Strangle
...
A PC performing strangulation is able to cease their attempt at any time by typing "stop strangle" at any time
Love the idea! Not sure I like the stopping command (I know I'll forget it!). I'd prefer to tie it into a command we have already, somehow (disengage, release?).
In other news/requests...does Arm have the ability to tie/untie people? We have rope (requires some type of rope). Allow for arguments
Quote
tie amos
You tie amos up.
tie amos hands
You tie amos' wrists together.
tie amos feet/legs
You tie amos' ankles together.
Tying hands removes ability to wield/hold (ep, es, etwo, hold), perhaps including eat, drink, use, crafting, cleaning. Tying feet removes ability to walk (walk/run). Tying both...well, both!
Good for battening down your prey/victim, so you can pontificate at them, wander around sharpening knives, threatening their family, gesticulating wildly, etc. So they don't run off mid-scene. Good for RP, and fancier
Must be unconscious, asleep, or subdued prior to being tied up. You can tie up someone you are subduing or someone else is subduing (so you can work alone!). Need to have a type of (sturdy) rope in your inv which gets used up.
For the victim, 'flee' will trigger a struggle attempt to loosen the bindings and slip out. Strength of the rope would be a factor (need thicker rope to hold a stronger person, so HG murderbeast requires chunky rope, pathetic prissy crafter gets by on the cheap stuff (Salarr/Kurac extra-strong rope market there!), and strength of the person.
Quote
flee
The green-eyed amos struggles with their bindings.
Not sure if I would auto-show when someone got free...gives the chance of the element of the surprise? Watch -should- let you see that they have loose...
Quote
watch amos
The green-eyed amos struggles with their bindings.
You notice: The green-eyed amos gets his/her/their hands free.
Obviously 'untie' would be the same in reverse. Untie undoes both, untie hands undoes hands only, untie feet undoes legs only. And it should show when looking...
Quote
look amos
He is an amos with green eyes.
The green-eyed amos is in poor condition.
His/her/its wrists are bound together.
His/her/its legs are bound.
He/she/it is tied up.
(First carry, then strangle, now tying people up...I promise I'm not trying to host a betrayal torture party...I'm just planning for future ones ;D)
Edit:Forgot an important part! Escape!
If your hands AREN'T bound...you can untie your own feet. This is more obvious than struggling...
QuoteX unties their ankles.
If your hands ARE bound...fleeing will work. But I'd suggest adding in a moderate timer, say, 1 IC days, before this spams up...
QuoteX's bonds start to loosen.
/
Your bonds start to loosen.
Either make the 'flee' check easier, or slowly start to tick down a timer. Let your capture 'tie' again to re-secure. But basically it is to stop someone tying someone up, going linkdead, and them dying of boredom/hunger. While I, personally, rather like the idea of tying some totally worthy victim up, dragging them out into the middle of the salt, and leaving them to die, it does seem rather...unlikely. So giving them the option of essentially gnawing through the ropes, even as a weakling who can't flee them, after a certain amount of time...may stop people stuffing people in holes rather than finishing the job.
(also might add penalty to combat for it, but, tbh, if you can't hold a weapon...plus you're effectively subdued...you're going down fast, so doesn't seem worth the hassle!).
I like the idea of strangle but some of these ideas can be accomplished with brew.
Tie up... force them to drink a vial of peraine. They can still chat using the way.
Strangle? ... once subdued you can get a friend to force them to drink a vial of heramide.
The only thing with strangle is that it would basically work without the additional condition of an item+friend.
+1 to strangle and tie, but you can't do them to someone you're subduing. Victim must be subdued by another person, paralyzed, or unconscious.
Requiring more than one aggressor doesn't prevent all abuse, but it helps with the Griefer-Dwarf scenario.
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on May 26, 2020, 07:40:38 PM
+1 to strangle and tie, but you can't do them to someone you're subduing. Victim must be subdued by another person, paralyzed, or unconscious.
Requiring more than one aggressor doesn't prevent all abuse, but it helps with the Griefer-Dwarf scenario.
Can see that being a point - I didn't want to snub the lone wolves, but tbh, if someone is lone-wolfing it, the chance that they have poisons makes it unlikely (I don't do 'lone wolf', so was trying to put myself in their shoes on what would feel 'reasonable'). I am 100% down with the adjustment though...can tie a subdued person, can not tie someone you, personally, are subduing. Raiders take prisoners, Lords hold thieves found in your estates, criminals begin hostage negotiations...etc.
I did miss one point major point though, escape! Let me edit my post...
Tie up should need another person or unconciousness.
But strangle should 100% be doable alone, in real life you can totally strangle someone on your own.
I asked if we could have more restraints like this IG maybe a year ago and just wanted to share some details I got from staff on this. Essentially the first given answer was "Restraints exist in game already, but are rare."
But I wanted to thank you all for bringing this all up because they definitely need to be more available to mundane players. Just like restraining people is a tactic IRL [most modern enforcers will have a clip of bullets AND a wad of zip ties] and it's one of those things that, by providing a adversarial interaction option besides kill, we'll only enhance plots / RP for all people involved.
and no need to joke about my icon here lol
Quote from: Hauwke on May 26, 2020, 08:25:13 PM
Tie up should need another person or unconciousness.
But strangle should 100% be doable alone, in real life you can totally strangle someone on your own.
Figured I'd pitch in. If you're at the advanced or master end of the subdue skill IRL you would also easily be able to tie someone solo with a rope if their skill is journeyman or lower.
Master > Journeyman or below
Advanced > apprentice and below
Edited to add: especially if the rope is prepared to already have a slip knot on one end
For Shabago:
I did a scribble on an apartment wall last month I believe, and it started to fade within a couple of IC hours. I was surprised.
Quote from: DesertT on May 27, 2020, 11:13:57 AM
For Shabago:
I did a scribble on an apartment wall last month I believe, and it started to fade within a couple of IC hours. I was surprised.
Will look into this one. Thanks for the heads up.
Quote from: Dresan on May 24, 2020, 02:23:38 PM
The only change to spice it needs are:
- It needs to last way longer. (2 IC days at least)
- Make snorting or smoking it an hemote that doesn't break hide.
- increase the prices of war-spice accordingly(100-200sid)
Additionally militia/templars should crack down on the city/clans to ensure the laws against it are being enforced. It doesn't necessarily need to be stronger, but there should definitely be a difference from the stuff gathered on the ground and the refined stuff kurac sells.
Editted to add: I think spice you can find should probably work as it does now. Spice kurac refines should work like the above with the right price tag.
If you're smoking spice, there's smoke coming out of one end of the tube/pipe and smoke coming out of your nose/mouth when you exhale. Where there's smoke, there's someone smoking. It should absolutely positively always break hide.
On multi-renting apartments (to Shabago):
A possible option:
If there are two people each renting one-room apartments in the same building, they could be allowed to share their apartments with each other. In this way, they could "convert" one of those apartments into workspace/storage area and use the other as a living room/sleeping area. There are some one-room apartments that might provide some interesting arrangements that way.
Each room would still have its own keyset - the ONLY thing that would change is that the two renters can share each of their combined two apartments.
Quote from: Dresan on May 24, 2020, 02:23:38 PM
The only change to spice it needs are:
- It needs to last way longer. (2 IC days at least)
- Make snorting or smoking it an hemote that doesn't break hide.
- increase the prices of war-spice accordingly(100-200sid)
Be nice if spice aroma would fade while offline; it lasts quite a while.
Quote from: Brytta Léofa on May 27, 2020, 02:25:42 PM
Quote from: Dresan on May 24, 2020, 02:23:38 PM
The only change to spice it needs are:
- It needs to last way longer. (2 IC days at least)
- Make snorting or smoking it an hemote that doesn't break hide.
- increase the prices of war-spice accordingly(100-200sid)
Be nice if spice aroma would fade while offline; it lasts quite a while.
Some good stuff here actually. Spice could use a bit of a rework or at least clean up. There is a lot of good potential there, but needs some more refinement to make it even better.
Quote from: Lizzie on May 27, 2020, 12:20:27 PM
On multi-renting apartments (to Shabago):
A possible option:
If there are two people each renting one-room apartments in the same building, they could be allowed to share their apartments with each other. In this way, they could "convert" one of those apartments into workspace/storage area and use the other as a living room/sleeping area. There are some one-room apartments that might provide some interesting arrangements that way.
Each room would still have its own keyset - the ONLY thing that would change is that the two renters can share each of their combined two apartments.
This would just exacerbate apartment shortages, as two people now own two apartments. I'd rather have a half-dozen people squeezed in to one, interacting with each other (if not the wider game world) than that.
QuoteStrangle
QuoteTie up
I'm a little leery of things like these as long as we have half-giants and their insanely overpowered subdue. There's also the issue that criminal PCs are basically forced to play with nosave arrest on in order to avoid instadeath from NPC soldiers, which in turn leaves them completely defenseless against PC soldier subdue. This has thus far been tolerable because unless a soldier subdues you right next to the jail, you have a lot of chances to flee as they begin to move you there. And if the subduer is out to kill you, attacking you breaks the subdue. If they can instead just start to strangle you or tie you up, that seems like it'll just be too easy for HGs and soldiers to effortlessly kill anyone without a very high flee skill. I'm in the camp that thinks the code handles certain things so poorly that we're better off without mechanics that revolve around those things. But then again, if staff comes up with a new coded function for arresting characters and divorces it from the subdue command, that would open up a lot of possibilities.
Smoking should break hide, and you shouldn't be able to snort it while fighting.
Quote
More seriously, getting tossed on back into realism on just what these apartments are, versus how they're used - Eh. Not much a fan personally on this. I understand the theme of people living on top of one another, but as we already see tents/single room apartments being jammed with crates, cots, two couches and a tree dug up from the Grey Forrest just for two PCs and they're upset when capacity is met, adding a 3rd, 4th, 5th renter is just fuel to the fire. Further, it takes away a 'perk' to joining certain clans and there's a balance issue. Finally, accessible RP partners are fun for the game world. A mini indy clan that finds the two or three people they enjoy playing with gets sucked into the void of their 4-5 room apartment fortress, never to be seen again by the populace at large
I think clans should also stop providing those same fortresses that indies are not allowed to have.
There seem to be many apartment empty in Allanak mostly because most people are encouraged into clans where either they cannot afford an apartment or are given theft free storage.
Instead of isolating these character from the rest of the game, why don't all clan just subsidize apartments buildings for their members. Forcing them to get one of these places for their storage needs. It would be nice to see apartments being highly contested commodities in Allanak.
Again as the game has changed and evolved, with area closures, class rework, skill and combat learning reworks, the perks which might have been modest for clans to have at one point are just getting outright nutty now. Maybe closed off risk free hang outs and storage can be toned down?
Quote from: worldofsand on May 27, 2020, 06:55:33 PM
QuoteStrangle
QuoteTie up
I'm a little leery of things like these as long as we have half-giants and their insanely overpowered subdue. There's also the issue that criminal PCs are basically forced to play with nosave arrest on in order to avoid instadeath from NPC soldiers, which in turn leaves them completely defenseless against PC soldier subdue. This has thus far been tolerable because unless a soldier subdues you right next to the jail, you have a lot of chances to flee as they begin to move you there. And if the subduer is out to kill you, attacking you breaks the subdue. If they can instead just start to strangle you or tie you up, that seems like it'll just be too easy for HGs and soldiers to effortlessly kill anyone without a very high flee skill. I'm in the camp that thinks the code handles certain things so poorly that we're better off without mechanics that revolve around those things. But then again, if staff comes up with a new coded function for arresting characters and divorces it from the subdue command, that would open up a lot of possibilities.
Unless someone actively teaches a HG the subdue skill, they have a bunch of trouble actually getting it to a point where you can't break out reliably.
That said, yeah that is a concern.
Strangle:
When you have someone subdued, you can attempt the command, 'strangle'. It'll slowly start draining their stun, 'til they pass out, but at this point the strangled person gains a bonus to escape since the grasp is entirely focused on strangling them rather than holding them in a way that is easy to keep them pinned like with regular subdue. However, as one knows, it is quite tiring to try and break out of a subdue, so struggling too much can hasten your death. Sometimes, you shouldn't struggle as much to buy yourself time for your friends to get them off of you. Otherwise, fight for your life.
When their stun is drained, it'll start draining their movement points.
Once their movement points are drained completely, it'll begin draining their health until it goes to 1: To finish someone off, you need to use the 'kill' command to simulate a final deadly squeeze to either strangle the life out of them or to break their neck completely.
The higher the strangle skill, the more stun and mv you drain per 'tic'. However, the HP drain is fixed to be slightly slower. When you're out of air, it's only your endurance that will keep you from turning blue and dead.
Obviously, there may be more options to strangle from stealth as well, such as with a garrote or a rope in hand, that does not require a subdue first. Like a much slower, more intimate sap that may be easier to achieve due to it needing less precision than striking them on the temple with a club.
>strangle amos
You creep towards Amos, choking implement in hand...
You lash a rope around Amos' throat from behind, strangling him!
Amos gasps for air and struggles!
Amos gasps for air and struggles!
Amos jerks away from being strangled, heaving for air.
Amos runs to the west.
>think Damn.
Quote from: worldofsand on May 27, 2020, 06:55:33 PM
QuoteStrangle
QuoteTie up
I'm a little leery of things like these as long as we have half-giants and their insanely overpowered subdue. There's also the issue that criminal PCs are basically forced to play with nosave arrest on in order to avoid instadeath from NPC soldiers, which in turn leaves them completely defenseless against PC soldier subdue. This has thus far been tolerable because unless a soldier subdues you right next to the jail, you have a lot of chances to flee as they begin to move you there. And if the subduer is out to kill you, attacking you breaks the subdue. If they can instead just start to strangle you or tie you up, that seems like it'll just be too easy for HGs and soldiers to effortlessly kill anyone without a very high flee skill. I'm in the camp that thinks the code handles certain things so poorly that we're better off without mechanics that revolve around those things. But then again, if staff comes up with a new coded function for arresting characters and divorces it from the subdue command, that would open up a lot of possibilities.
I think it's telling that the only scene in which I've had a character tied up was also a scene in which they were perrained.
Humanity has had ropes and have used ropes/restraints for time immemorial in warfare and other contexts, yet this usage is rarely seen in game... because the mechanic arbitrarily doesn't exist.
So, escru herders, you can perraine dart your escru when you need to shear them rather than tying them up! JK, for escru you can "just roleplay it out." Need to tie up your escru while shearing them, just RP it out, argument works, nice!
However, in scenes of conflict you can't "just roleplay it out." You need the code, or else it isn't going to happen. And in fact, in years of playing, the only time I did see it happen was, ironically and hilariously, when perraine was involved,
because that provided the code mechanic actually making it possible.In one of humanity's very first pieces of storytelling, the Odyssey, Hector is tied up to a chariot and dragged around the walls of Troy.
Here in Armageddon we have the chariot, we have the walls, we have the warfare... but no widely available restraint code, oops! So you can re-enact all of that scene, and other common dramatic scenarios like it, except... you can't. Rope is for
ERP emotes climbing only.
That the Iliad, tho.
Quote from: HeeBeeGB on May 27, 2020, 11:52:58 PM
That the Iliad, tho.
Thanks for
trolling correcting me, and you
further proved my point because the Iliad came
before the Odyssey. So there you go, one of Europe's very first piece of literature and by many definitions
the first.
You can do literally the DEFINITION and ORIGIN of the word Epic, Iliad grade epic drama, except that one part.
And oh, all 2351412514123 pieces of literature with that -- not that either.
You can enjoy the very code mechanic we are asking for in perraine, but not in this context because... no good reason given.
DAT ILLIAD THO
I agree rope in its most primitive use was probably 'I can climb that thing' at about the same time it was 'I can kill that motherfucker with this'.
+1 to Strangle
+1 to Hog-Tie
I think there has been enough time with the new classes and subclasses to investigate whether they are functioning as designed.
I have a few suggestions and some tweaks:
Minstrel to have the language perk (if it already has it, the help file needs to be updated)
Wastelander to have advanced ride and search.
Master Crafter to get tool making
Master Jeweler to get tool making
Marksman to get Dying
Roughrider to get Direction Sense and Pain Tolerance.
House Servant to get Journeyman Scan
I've been brewing ideas a while and with new mount feeding code and such, and with this thread, I am inspired to lay them out. Likely some have been presented before. I think these could tie in with the great ideas above regarding mounts.
1. Wear locations on mounts for the display of scars/markings
2. A scar/dismemberment room you can access with your mount, to add various things to location. Examples:
<on body> a wyvern branding
<on back> two long jagged scars
<on shell> some acid scarring/a broken section/
<on leg/legs> a broken end/a missing leg
<on head/face> A missing eye/a scarred snout
3. Places to sell stolen mounts, not just butchering them.
4.Affecting mounts with spiced foods.
"I don't care what you call him, now, that's my fucking Inix"
"Oh my Krath, that's Spot! Someone stole him last month!"
"Horse thieves with be shot with a deadly bolt!"
Quote from: mansa on May 28, 2020, 12:36:04 AM
Minstrel to have the language perk (if it already has it, the help file needs to be updated)
It does not, or did not as of November 2019 when I asked for confirmation via request according to Brokkr (while trying to pick between it and Bard), when the language perk was the thing I was most interested in. Without that perk, it feels vastly underweighted in comparison to its non-karma-requiring counterpart!
Quote from: mansa on May 28, 2020, 12:36:04 AM
Marksman to get Dying
...I
really hope that is an unfortunate typo/misspelling...
Quote from: mansa on May 28, 2020, 12:36:04 AM
I think there has been enough time with the new classes and subclasses to investigate whether they are functioning as designed.
I have a few suggestions and some tweaks:
Minstrel to have the language perk (if it already has it, the help file needs to be updated)
Wastelander to have advanced ride and search.
Master Crafter to get tool making
Master Jeweler to get tool making
Marksman to get Dying
Roughrider to get Direction Sense and Pain Tolerance.
House Servant to get Journeyman Scan
Another new thread for feedback on classes and sub-guilds now that time has passed would be great especially given all the game changes that have impacted them(example: there is now always a chance to dodge,etc).
Remove a lot of free food options from noble estates and GMH compounds etc. Make sure these clan specific recipes are craftable, so they aren't lost, or perhaps posted to each clan board so they are a bit more accessible, or they become available at a certain clan rank.
To allow for different playtimes and people not being able to meet up IG, allow food bin/storage items longer delay on food decaying while stored inside.
Good cooks would now be highly in demand, and definately a focuse of study at the Atrium to teach and master. The grocer type shops may sell to folk other than npcs, and hunters may be able to sell a bit more meat instead of leaving it to waste. Noble PCs might have a stronger desire to acquire exotic meats and food instead of just ask npc cook bahamet steak with ginka sauce.
Quote from: Evilone on June 02, 2020, 10:00:31 AM
Remove a lot of free food options from noble estates and GMH compounds etc. Make sure these clan specific recipes are craftable, so they aren't lost, or perhaps posted to each clan board so they are a bit more accessible, or they become available at a certain clan rank.
To allow for different playtimes and people not being able to meet up IG, allow food bin/storage items longer delay on food decaying while stored inside.
Good cooks would now be highly in demand, and definately a focuse of study at the Atrium to teach and master. The grocer type shops may sell to folk other than npcs, and hunters may be able to sell a bit more meat instead of leaving it to waste. Noble PCs might have a stronger desire to acquire exotic meats and food instead of just ask npc cook bahamet steak with ginka sauce.
This is excellent not just for making the skills in demand, but it might introduce a need for "royal taster" type assistance as you no longer have an instantly trustworthy NPC just handing you food. What if someone snuck in and poisoned your food? Better have some flunkie taste it first, or have it cooked in front of you for your fancy dinner party. idk
I'm not a fan of the push to require PC interaction for absolutely everything. Why? That PC you need is unavailable for RL days at a time, more often than not. Sometimes for weeks at a time. This results in everyone that now needs that PCs service to twiddle their thumbs until that PC shows up, if they bother to play at all. Sure, you may have involved one more hunter/grebber/cook/merchant, but in the meantime you've also blocked a whole lot of RP for several other PCs. This may now never happen at all because everyone else involved just got tired of sitting around and waiting for one hunte/grebber/cook/merchant PC.
Quote from: Evilone on June 02, 2020, 10:00:31 AM
Remove a lot of free food options from noble estates and GMH compounds etc. Make sure these clan specific recipes are craftable, so they aren't lost, or perhaps posted to each clan board so they are a bit more accessible, or they become available at a certain clan rank.
To allow for different playtimes and people not being able to meet up IG, allow food bin/storage items longer delay on food decaying while stored inside.
Considering how tight funding was the last time I was in such a clan, both for the head honcho and as a groundling, I'm not sure this is a good idea. We
were buying in a lot of exotic food (and non-exotic food), because eating the same thing was very dull, but that was on a 'I found this hunter and want to RP and spread the love and plot around', not a 'My supposedly higher society privileged character is starving and I am desperate for food'.
Finding people to do X can be hard, as an off-peak player AND putting a deadline on it by way of do-this-or-die...
I would rather see encouragement of expanding tastebuds, especially in nobles and high-ranking GMH people, without penalising their underlings (who make -considerably- less than indies do!). It would be awful for immersion to have these big clans go "Whelp, half our people are starving because Bob and Phil haven't logged in since Saturday, and nobody has wanted to roll a hunter-type character who wants to socialise and provide us with 20 bits of chalton a RL day". That is just plain stupid!
Quote from: ShaiHulud on May 28, 2020, 01:02:16 AM
I've been brewing ideas a while and with new mount feeding code and such, and with this thread, I am inspired to lay them out. Likely some have been presented before. I think these could tie in with the great ideas above regarding mounts.
1. Wear locations on mounts for the display of scars/markings
2. A scar/dismemberment room you can access with your mount, to add various things to location. Examples:
<on body> a wyvern branding
<on back> two long jagged scars
<on shell> some acid scarring/a broken section/
<on leg/legs> a broken end/a missing leg
<on head/face> A missing eye/a scarred snout
3. Places to sell stolen mounts, not just butchering them.
4.Affecting mounts with spiced foods.
"I don't care what you call him, now, that's my fucking Inix"
"Oh my Krath, that's Spot! Someone stole him last month!"
"Horse thieves with be shot with a deadly bolt!"
All I can think of is a rinthi chop shop that will re-spray your brown inix you pinched from Red Storm a fabulous hot pink so you can sell it to that tressy aide, so Bruno-the-raider doesn't realise that poor Stompy is now being called Princess Foo-foo!
I am down with mount customisation via scarring though, that'd be neat!
Re-updated the sidebar thread. Let's give this one another 3 days? Then I'll close/do replies. From there, we can cycle back regarding additional feedback given.
The helpfiles I think are already linked from the game to the website so that the same files are kept updated between each, what could be interesting is if there was a website button that could auto-fill the current contents of the help file into the form for editing for a new Request category "Helpfile update suggestion" - I think that would be a good way to get stuff kept more current and with helpful little things that people tend to notice for new people (think and feel are missing (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55795.msg1047372.html#msg1047372) from the new player guide on the website as well, they are both quite hidden)
(I posted similar about wagons on the release note discussion thread which has a lot of good ideas on sometimes there (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52143.1150.html), about 2 months waaay back before anything about a new wagon-centric group)Wagon combat! :) Try turn around the thing of such things being able to be used in a cheesy manner to avoid interactions with mekillots and other player characters, especially when no staff is around to allow them to be attacked :) since the only other alternative is to enter the wagon and kill the guard NPCs (I'm also figuring staff would expect to be told about killing "special" NPCs first maybe? Even though wagons are smaller without virtual crew?)
This would mean that wagons are awkward in a lot of ways by putting an unbalanced onus on the attacker to clear things with staff,
unless the riders also need to notify staff in advance before moving wagons and arrange a time for wagon movements to be overseen, which could be a good idea (it's
always through dangerous territory), they seem very cheese at the moment, it could be balanced out by making wagons more realistic to deal with from the outside to slow or stop them rather than silly memey just zooming past everything in the known due to it being an "object" rather than a NPC that can be attacked - Targeting rope connecting the harness, the wheels, making the puller NPCs stampede, or lighting the things on fire if people hit it enough times with a torch :D Make them like a boss monster!
Cart combat! Instead of having to incapacitate the pilot or every one of the animals to stop a cart (and everyone on it) moving (because you need to be able to ride it to be able to use the unharness command - the help files should also probably be updated for the elves to let them know if using the command for brief moments like that is allowed, as well as jumping on things with the intent of attacking and not riding on them, it's not clear lore-wise at the moment though there's this:
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Dune%20Stalkers
Quotecaravans that are hit by Dune Stalker raiding crews are usually unaware of danger until the first few bodies tumble off the wagon
Wagon+cart damage!
I think this would also add more RP business+plot hooks for people with the wagonmaking skill to repair them after they have been attacked maybe :)
Also maybe could also be a nice idea to put in the option to sabotage carts/wagons (with risk of it being noticed both during and after if someone takes the care to inspect the moving parts before setting off) if someone actually manages to jump on top of a moving cart to cut the harness, or infiltrate a wagon to disconnect moorings and such while they are on board making it unable to move again until it gets fixed and maybe need a rescue group to come - Fun chances for adventures and intrigue, rather than holes being the main nemesis of wagons :D
Training pits.
We used to have something similar in Tuluk that was removed because people abused it. However it was really popular because it allowed indies and different clans to gather together in the same location to spar and RP. Frankly it generated a lot of fun especially when you were potentially stuck in a clan with no one to train with.
The game has changed a lot since then, and frankly even if someone were to sit there all day and night sparing random people all the time due to code changes at some point they would mostly be helping train the local newbies rather then themselves. If two people wanted to meet and spar all the time, well currently they can still rent an apartment and do so its a moot point.
The way I envision a training pit is that it would cost coins to use, maybe four training rooms. It would take advantage of the 'rent' command like in taverns. There would be a seating area above like a regular arena to view the fights too(this might be free), where people waiting to use the training rooms themselves can sit...and yell. Additionally the longer you spend in your current session, the more you need to pay extra the next time you want to use it, so staying there just to recover is going to cost you later.
If you enter these places its easy to flee in any direction but be careful who you enter with. It would be nice to see the act turning someone to a corpse making you wanted, but not attacking people. Regardless be careful who you enter with, accidents happen.
Pros:
-Yo! Another fun and useful money sink.
-Support for indies.
-We move away from groups sparring in tiny apartments.
-more fun RP and interaction!
Con
-I never figured out how exactly people were abusing the old arena but abuse happens. We should remove elves from the game because someone might want to ride stuff with them.
-Taverns become boring (UNLESS training pits are areas IN the taverns, in which case going to taverns becomes much more interesting.)
Quote from: Dresan on June 03, 2020, 09:48:50 AM
-Taverns become boring (UNLESS training pits are areas IN the taverns, in which case going to taverns becomes much more interesting.)
Yeah I've been wanting to say this whole time that there's a great idea from a game
very similar to Armageddon but not Armageddon where a fighting pit is
inside the tavern. It means it's easy to duel people you argue with immediately, or practice in a fun and public way. People literally sip ale while people fight in the pit, it's jolly good fun.
Quote from: Dresan on June 03, 2020, 09:48:50 AM
Training pits.
Honestly this seems like something a player could easily do in an apartment.
Oh you wanna train? Amos shows up outside the Gaj and shouts that it's training time and then we all pay him 30 sids and follow him to his apartment.
Hell, you could probably do this twice a "week" and make a few small each time which would more than pay for rent+bribes. Plus the networking opportunities...
RE: Wilderness Quit / Camping
I think the reliance on another PC to have the capability to make the camp sort of reduces the idea of 'people who don't have this perk shouldn't be out in the wilderness to begin with'. Classes like Raider certainly should be out in the wilds, but they don't have wilderness quit. Classes like Fighter don't even get Ride (!) and having cross-class synergy increases interaction rather than reduces it, IMHO.
Going on long ranges into the great unknown shouldn't rely on which class you are from the gates -- it should matter who you bring with you. Imagine LoTR, but everyone had to be Class Stalker.
In essence, all that I would ask for that would be cool is:
-Those who have wilderness quit can make a room wilderness quit with proper materials. People who quit out there cannot use it more than that one time (Think an IC version of Quit OOC).
-Campfires are made MUCH easier to make. They are terribly esoteric right now, requiring multiple materials and kindling and so on. I'd prefer that the campfire object be easier to make (one or two foraged items) and needing to be refilled with fuel. Honestly, I'd like if wilderness-minded classes could just craft a campfire out of RP'd materials once per IC day. I typically see when people are roughing it and want to make a campfire, they spend the entire night looking for materials, and then it's daytime.
Quote from: Awentawa on June 03, 2020, 10:47:01 AM
Quote from: Dresan on June 03, 2020, 09:48:50 AM
Training pits.
Honestly this seems like something a player could easily do in an apartment.
Yes. It would be nice to see that Indy players don't have to keep resorting to sparring in their very tiny apartments because the only other viable option is to rent a warehouse or go somewhere even more potentially dangerous to spar.
Perhaps not something you find in Allanak, but in places like Redstorm and Luirs these fighting pits would be very well used and enjoyed by everyone. The potential for gambling would be great too.
Campfires:
Quote from: HeeBeeGB on June 03, 2020, 12:55:20 PM-Campfires are made MUCH easier to make. They are terribly esoteric right now, requiring multiple materials and kindling and so on. I'd prefer that the campfire object be easier to make (one or two foraged items) and needing to be refilled with fuel. Honestly, I'd like if wilderness-minded classes could just craft a campfire out of RP'd materials once per IC day. I typically see when people are roughing it and want to make a campfire, they spend the entire night looking for materials, and then it's daytime.
Your basic southern dung-fire isn't so bad, but they're all a little material-heavy to make all the time. My slightly contrary suggestions:
- Easier fires: Reduce the recipe requirements by 1 piece. Consider eliminating kindling.
- Less spammy fires: Expire campfire objects from the room as with corpse decay. (Maybe this happens already?)
- More necessary fires: Allow low-level regional baddies, such as scrabs and scorpions, to see in the dark so they can roll up and attack you. (Don't give this to spiders because fuck that.)
Wilderness Quit, terrible-ideas-discuss:
- DON'T simplify campfire recipes; however: a tent becomes quit-safe if it's in a room with a campfire.
...I actually love this a lot. It gives adequate code support to anybody who wants to temporarily base a group in the wilderness, while requiring equipment (tent), material (fuel), and ongoing effort to maintain a viable site, and leaves the site vulnerable to destruction. Wilderness-quit PCs retain substantial advantages: they can camp without equipment while leaving little trace.
Pretty sure staff have definitively said the inside of tents will never be a quit room. There's some funkiness around them being destroyable and the like. I've had bugs before where I entered one tent and then stepped outside and was on the opposite side of the world.(I just don't think code will make this particular option an easy one.)
But other than that I'd be down! If you wanna leave your 1000+ coin tent in a room just to log out? Go for it. That tent's mine now.
I rather see anyone with the wilderness quit skill be able to make camp for people. As in make an area into quit safe place for everyone temporarily.
In cases of emergency there is already ooc quit. For everything else, wastelander is an extended sub-guild.
Please correct me if I am wrong but I believe one of the changes they made with classes is that while ride is useful skill if you want to ride early on, combat classes can all eventually ride hands free if they get skilled enough with dual wield/two-handed (not sure if shield use is included in that for combat heavy)
In short if you really want this skill, you should should just take it as part of a class or extended sub-guild or with my suggestion above hopefully someday just travel with someone that can help you quit in the wilderness.
RE: Eliminating NPC cooks:
You would think that with a playerbase that keeps shrinking in ways that keep killing more and more options, and a years long trendline showing no reverse of the downward numbers trend, that foresight would indicate that it's a BAD idea to make you require a million characters around for a million different things, because all that does is make bigger parts of the roles that still exist unplayable unless you luck into a constantly dwindling resource. That seems very confusing as a design choice.
Edit to clarify what choice I'm referring to from the previous page.
Quote from: ChuciPeppers on June 03, 2020, 05:56:03 PM
RE: Eliminating NPC cooks:
You would think that with a playerbase that keeps shrinking in ways that keep killing more and more options, and a years long trendline showing no reverse of the downward numbers trend, that foresight would indicate that it's a BAD idea to make you require a million characters around for a million different things, because all that does is make bigger parts of the roles that still exist unplayable unless you luck into a constantly dwindling resource. That seems very confusing as a design choice.
Edit to clarify what choice I'm referring to from the previous page.
I agree with the reasoning here, but cooking is a somewhat exceptional case because it's
so underutilized right now. People were just joking on the Discord about what a useless subguild Master Chef is. The only useful skill the subguild seems to have in many peoples' eyes is skinning: master cooking is nothing more than a "flavor" skill, pardon the pun.
OP for this topic fleshed it out well. This is another one of those things where players can "be the change" and start a cooking renaissance similar to the French court at Versailles, but OP raises a good point about how automatically getting luxury dishes from NPCs eliminates that need and reduces the likelihood of this ever happening.
In a lesser scale then farming, potted plants:
There are plenty of plants with useful herbs out there. I think it would make sense that some people prefer to grow them at times.
Prepared 'seeds' could be crafted using floristry skill using herbs/seeds collected from the plant. You would need to buy a pot with soil (money sink) and plant it. Pots would require watering semi-regularly(money sink). Eventually a plant would grow and produce herbs. If not watered a plant will not grow/wither.
If watered regularly plants would produce herbs/seeds a few times before dying. Dung/magick water(money/time sink) would help improve growth, life and produce of a plant. All herbs, some good and even some poison plants could be grown (not heramide of course). If plants are not taken care of they will dry out and wither or get too old they will need to be found in the wild once again, by someone with floristry skill.
Keeping potted plants would be a more time and money consuming venture then running out and just gathering the herbs from the wild. However, some rarer plants and herbs would be clearly very nice to keep especially if they don't grow locally.
While i am thinking of using floristy as a required skill, I am also thinking it might be great for it to be a planting/farming skill very much like drawing skill that everyone can learn with practice.
In regards too the cooking skill, I wish that it had some recipes that were less effective (more difficult) versions of the tanning skill, or rendered raw hide and other low quality leather items. It's really frustrating to have a good haul of leathers and nothing to do with them because the shops are full. Additionally, and I know it may not be part of the game, but even I, a guy who's never skinned anything know the premise of brain-tanning hides. In a world where hunting is so commonplace you'd think the knowledge would be extremely commonplace and available.
Regarding the fighting pits, why not just have the Arena open to the public between events. It's strange to me that a huge plot of land sits unused 99% of the time and lore wise I believe even the gladiators aren't using it to train in. They could charge admission and every short-lived indie company could use it as an alternative (like 50-100 sid per person) instead of a warehouse they own for the express purpose of sparring in and storing rocks. It could also be overseen by the sabers as a duty (like once a week) and would explain how it's kept relatively safe.
I would love to see Elkrosian elementalists completely high magicked/retconned out of the game. With thier abilities recycled and infused in to the 15 magickal subclasses we currently have to to further make them interesting and unique.
It feels like this has happened somewhat but feels like a wet loose thread that just needs to be finally yanked.
Quote from: Dresan on June 05, 2020, 01:38:34 PM
I would love to see Elkrosian elementalists completely high magicked/retconned out of the game. With thier abilities recycled and infused in to the 15 magickal subclasses we currently have to to further make them interesting and unique.
It feels like this has happened somewhat but feels like a wet loose thread that just needs to be finally yanked.
Were elkro really that OP/bugged that there's no way to properly create a subclass analog? I've noticed the dispersal of elkro stuff, but am equally wary, I think, of them being turned into a subclass because after playing one specific subclass I noticed that ALL of the bite was gone out of the class, and a lot of the subclasses appeared to be built around one specific very useful spell, with lots of little frills attached. The new subclasses feel like "One easy trick to alter reality. Templars hate him!" more than a balanced or well rounded choice.
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on June 05, 2020, 01:54:46 PM
...I noticed that ALL of the bite was gone out of the class, and a lot of the subclasses appeared to be built around one specific very useful spell, with lots of little frills attached. The new subclasses feel like "One easy trick to alter reality. Templars hate him!" more than a balanced or well rounded choice.
This made me laugh because it's so true.
For touched gicker classes this completely makes sense, and I love that. I absolutely adore that touched gickers have one to two flashy tricks, it creates more of a feeling of a "Spellsword" in Elder Scrolls or warrior/wizard dual class in Dungeons and Dragons.
For other subguilds though, I agree even they can feel like a one trick pony, and that is a real bummer when you pick one and find that out. Agreed, I'd love to see all non-touched magick subguilds have a little more depth/breadth.
While I miss full magickers, I am glad for the revisions because the utter lack of combat and outdoors skills made them easily sniffable and unfun to an extent. But beefing up the non-touched subguilds would rock.
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on June 05, 2020, 01:54:46 PM
Quote from: Dresan on June 05, 2020, 01:38:34 PM
I would love to see Elkrosian elementalists completely high magicked/retconned out of the game. With thier abilities recycled and infused in to the 15 magickal subclasses we currently have to to further make them interesting and unique.
It feels like this has happened somewhat but feels like a wet loose thread that just needs to be finally yanked.
Were elkro really that OP/bugged that there's no way to properly create a subclass analog? I've noticed the dispersal of elkro stuff, but am equally wary, I think, of them being turned into a subclass because after playing one specific subclass I noticed that ALL of the bite was gone out of the class, and a lot of the subclasses appeared to be built around one specific very useful spell, with lots of little frills attached. The new subclasses feel like "One easy trick to alter reality. Templars hate him!" more than a balanced or well rounded choice.
The only thing the main class, on its own, was any good at was combat. They were useless in every other possible way.
Love, player of the last remaining Elkrosan in the game, who was still playing her after they shut them down.
The thing is many of the main classes have so much bite all on their own within their own element, that any subclass just really help give them another element to their characters RP but doesn't really define them. In short, even magickers feel like people first now, not just mysterious casters (though they can certainly still be played that way)
On that note, I hope that once the economy work is complete and coin generation is normalized and controlled better, it'll be crafters who rule the world. I really like some of the subtle changes that are being done in that regard so far.
Quote from: Lotion on June 05, 2020, 05:00:13 AM
Problem:
The game crashes a lot and sometimes this happens when your backpack is on the ground which seems to happen the most often during sparring. Losing the items you to have with you at all times until staff manages to fulfill your reimbursement request really sucks because it's a vital part of agency. Having your items destroyed by a game glitch and having to wait days to get them back is incredibly demotivating and absolutely has a profound negative impact on RP.
Potential solution:
I'm not claiming it is perfect, there's probably some small problem but I'm posting it on the gdb instead of using the idea tool so that the best possible idea can be found.
Allow certain rooms to be temporary save rooms (referred to as tsave from here on out) which will sometimes activate and deactivate so that items in them will be preserved for a crash but not an intended reboot. A tsave room would not indicate to players when it starts or stops saving its contents because there might be sneaky people sneaking around doing sneaky stuff.
Conditions to turn it into a save room:
* A player logs in to the room (it's also a quit room, someone did wilderness quit, or did quit ooc)
* A player enters the room (gickery or just mundane walk/climb/sneak/run/etc.)
Conditions to deactivate it as a save room:
* The only remaining player in the room quits
* The only remaining player in the room leaves (gickery or just walking)
I believe this would be a good way to prevent people's bags from being destroyed in the event of a crash while they are on the ground in a sparring hall.
tl;dr make it so the sparring rooms are save rooms if at least one person is inside to protect the precious runner backpacks aren't lost in crashes
Locked for now, as mentioned in the earlier post. I'll try to get more answers out over the next couple of days, then reopen one of the threads to further replies as wished/warranted.
What did I miss, if anything? Rebuttals? Let's avoid more wishes/additions at this stage and focus on what's been put forth for discussion.
Status of tweaking magick subguilds. I sent in a request about the Nilazi subguild in specific and it seems like others echo similar issues for different subguilds. Will we be seeing a change in the spell suite for some of these subguilds or new spells added entirely? When should we expect to see those changes? Will they be represented in game by a planned event?
For reference my request was a year ago and I was assured it had sparked staff discussion and that's the last I've heard of it.
Quote from: Shabago on June 13, 2020, 01:35:08 PM
What did I miss, if anything? Rebuttals? Let's avoid more wishes/additions at this stage and focus on what's been put forth for discussion.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55741.msg1047564.html#msg1047564 ! :)
Quote from: tiny rainbow on June 03, 2020, 04:02:16 AM
The helpfiles I think are already linked from the game to the website so that the same files are kept updated between each, what could be interesting is if there was a website button that could auto-fill the current contents of the help file into the form for editing for a new Request category "Helpfile update suggestion" - I think that would be a good way to get stuff kept more current and with helpful little things that people tend to notice for new people (think and feel are missing (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55795.msg1047372.html#msg1047372) from the new player guide on the website as well, they are both quite hidden)
(I posted similar about wagons on the release note discussion thread which has a lot of good ideas on sometimes there (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52143.1150.html), about 2 months waaay back before anything about a new wagon-centric group)
Wagon combat! :) Try turn around the thing of such things being able to be used in a cheesy manner to avoid interactions with mekillots and other player characters, especially when no staff is around to allow them to be attacked :) since the only other alternative is to enter the wagon and kill the guard NPCs (I'm also figuring staff would expect to be told about killing "special" NPCs first maybe? Even though wagons are smaller without virtual crew?)
This would mean that wagons are awkward in a lot of ways by putting an unbalanced onus on the attacker to clear things with staff, unless the riders also need to notify staff in advance before moving wagons and arrange a time for wagon movements to be overseen, which could be a good idea (it's always through dangerous territory), they seem very cheese at the moment, it could be balanced out by making wagons more realistic to deal with from the outside to slow or stop them rather than silly memey just zooming past everything in the known due to it being an "object" rather than a NPC that can be attacked - Targeting rope connecting the harness, the wheels, making the puller NPCs stampede, or lighting the things on fire if people hit it enough times with a torch :D Make them like a boss monster!
Cart combat! Instead of having to incapacitate the pilot or every one of the animals to stop a cart (and everyone on it) moving (because you need to be able to ride it to be able to use the unharness command - the help files should also probably be updated for the elves to let them know if using the command for brief moments like that is allowed, as well as jumping on things with the intent of attacking and not riding on them, it's not clear lore-wise at the moment though there's this:
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Dune%20Stalkers Quotecaravans that are hit by Dune Stalker raiding crews are usually unaware of danger until the first few bodies tumble off the wagon
Wagon+cart damage!
I think this would also add more RP business+plot hooks for people with the wagonmaking skill to repair them after they have been attacked maybe :)
Also maybe could also be a nice idea to put in the option to sabotage carts/wagons (with risk of it being noticed both during and after if someone takes the care to inspect the moving parts before setting off) if someone actually manages to jump on top of a moving cart to cut the harness, or infiltrate a wagon to disconnect moorings and such while they are on board making it unable to move again until it gets fixed and maybe need a rescue group to come - Fun chances for adventures and intrigue, rather than holes being the main nemesis of wagons :D
Quote"Outside the Known" force.
This has likewise been something to come up a few times on staff-side chatter. As a general rule, the team seems agreeable to the idea on paper, much like some of you in the player base at large. It has it's appeal and a pretty decent list of pro's. There are some cons attached to it as well.
Q: Why were they never mentioned anywhere in game legend? A: They were outside of the Known!
Q: Ok, if outside of the Known, how are they getting into the known? A: Skimmers over the silt! (example)
Q: Ah, but the silt in enclosed by cliffs - where are they getting through? A: An earthquake broke a hole?
Q: Ok, so an event that never occurred in game happened off screen allowing this new race? How do players interact with them? A: Players can set sail to their homeland or see them when they come ashore, in angry/peaceful fashion?
Q: So, an area even further out than Tuluk that requires mass building, and would take a big chunk away from condensed play zones and thus, utterly eliminate the point of Tuluk's closure?
A: This is awkward.
This is cringe inducing to read. It evokes the wrong way to write in additions to the game and the wrong way to think of the game as a whole.
First of all, this isn't a novel we're playing in. It's a game. If there's an improvement to me made, the response shouldn't be "But does it fit in the world?". It should be "Will this improve gameplay dynamics/emergent narrative?". I don't know if an outside force would improve game play dynamics, or allow for better emergent narratives. But it shouldn't be dismissed because someone can't figure out how the they got over the impassible silt cliffs.
Secondly Armageddon is something like a novel in other ways. Armageddon staff have this amazing power called AUTHORSHIP. There's already so much stuff that barely works or barely fits into the game at all. Moreover staff have previously removed plenty of content (this isn't a complaint) from the game world, that have even resulted in revisions of the history page. The game has been changed in the past just to fit new systems of content. Reaches have been removed, talking to elemental has been removed, flash powder has been removed. These were all parts of the game's canon at one point and they were written out because of their effects on game dynamics. (this still isn't a complaint) There's no reason why something can't be written into the game in favor of new canon. To take the silt cliffs as an example, it just doesn't have to be more complicated than "Oh look, a new passage through the cliffs has been discovered." Templars in Tuluk were changed because that large asshole said so. Like, come on.
TLDR
Good reasons to change content in the game.
"It improves immersion/gives more stuff to do/improves social/combat dynamics/creates oportunities for emergent narratives, etc."
Bad reasons not to change content in the game.
"Ughh! We can't fit it into existing lore."
As an interesting note to the above, Zelda game makers often create their mechanics and dungeons first and then add story for it to make sense not the other way around.
QuoteGMH Flophouses
In theory, I like this. In practice, I'm not so sure it would fly. As it stands right now, getting employees/minions to GMH or Noble Houses both seem to be a challenge. Reducing a perk for the role may well just make the issue all the worse. Granted, it could be unrelated to perks and merely people want their 'freedom RP' or coin making ability. Whatever the reason may be. I'll give it some further consideration.
Perhaps not GMH or noble house employees one would think they have both the best perks but also the least number of openings. I already talked in another thread that I don't think its perks that is makes these roles unattractive.
I think clans, especially popular clans providing hangout places isolated from the rest of the game is not a good thing. There are sometimes 60 people in the game and the city feels utterly empty. If this is an issue about someone walking in and stealing the excessive stuff from clan's storehouses, then just make them steal proof or better yet remove them completely and force clan members to decide what they need and what they don't with more limited storage space. Other than a secure training area and maybe and a storage area for full members, the rest of the compound should literally be an open area anyone can wander into with a cook that would only serve food/water to clan members.
Also what about potted plants? You are basically trading much coins for convenience of having herbs and poisons growing within the city.
I think the idea of the setting is that agriculture is some sort of closely guarded secret. Like house Rennick (I think) is the only one growing gardens and there are zero farmer commoners. It's more of a military or state knowledge right up there with troop tactics and magical shit, which makes sense in a sort of way because if you can't feed an army you aren't a threat. I'm willing to write it off that Zalanthas is so ecologically fucked that you either need magick or some hyper specific care to grow even normal crops. The stuff that grows wild just happens to have gotten lucky.
However, this is as good of a jumping off point as any, I wanted to ask if there's been any further discussion about methods to use patches (as in salt patches) or massive corpses in other forms of foraging? Right now everyone who's played for a few years knows the general location of every plant in game, so transitioning to random patch styles that grow randomly in each biome would be great. Additionally it would prompt better foraging as a skill because it's pretty easy to miss good kalans in a patch or just waste your energy crunching around in brush before you find anything worth the effort.
Please keep in mind this may be a code question, but the code already exists in game and wouldn't need to change its form in any way. You'd just change white cube of salt to ripe blue kalan and red lump of salt to moldy kalan fruit. Easy peasy.
Where are we at with this?
Apologies, in retrospect I'm coming into this with my questions late.
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on June 14, 2020, 03:38:51 PM
I think the idea of the setting is that agriculture is some sort of closely guarded secret. Like house Rennick (I think) is the only one growing gardens and there are zero farmer commoners.
Isn't Yaroch (and other villages around Allanak) full of farmer commoners...? I've met a handful of 'farmers coming for a better life in the city' PCs from Yaroch over the years.
Quote from: Kyviantre on June 14, 2020, 03:57:41 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on June 14, 2020, 03:38:51 PM
I think the idea of the setting is that agriculture is some sort of closely guarded secret. Like house Rennick (I think) is the only one growing gardens and there are zero farmer commoners.
Isn't Yaroch (and other villages around Allanak) full of farmer commoners...? I've met a handful of 'farmers coming for a better life in the city' PCs from Yaroch over the years.
I understood that it was full of soldiers and farming slaves. Maybe I'm wrong?
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on June 14, 2020, 04:14:13 PM
Quote from: Kyviantre on June 14, 2020, 03:57:41 PM
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on June 14, 2020, 03:38:51 PM
I think the idea of the setting is that agriculture is some sort of closely guarded secret. Like house Rennick (I think) is the only one growing gardens and there are zero farmer commoners.
Isn't Yaroch (and other villages around Allanak) full of farmer commoners...? I've met a handful of 'farmers coming for a better life in the city' PCs from Yaroch over the years.
I understood that it was full of soldiers and farming slaves. Maybe I'm wrong?
IIRC yaroch is populated by commoners, soldiers, overseers, slaves and common wretches much like allanak. There's a few techniques and such employed to agriculture that are "small secrets" and "full-blown" secrets. But much of the toil of allanaki villagers isn't exactly a secret. I'd imagine things like harvesting, reaping, weeding, (obvious) pest control, plowing and sowing would all be common knowledge. How to do it right on the other hand and have a successful harvest is another thing entirely, especially in an arid desert.
Two Big Things in order of priority:
1. Can we PLEASE, please please, reverse the change that was made maybe 10-15 years ago of making the plots player driven, and have have a mix of World Driven Plots by staff. Specifically, Stuff that was like DragonThralls, Copper Wars, Kryl leaving the hive like the movie aliens(Way back when). I know there was garbage stuff that happened with plainsman etc, but please toss a bone.
2. Remove the Glass ceiling for PCs. Let there be Lieutenant Byn Sergeant PCs, One Red Robe Templar PC, A High Noble, Etc.
Quote from: Pew Pew on June 14, 2020, 09:45:15 PM
Two Big Things in order of priority:
1. Can we PLEASE, please please, reverse the change that was made maybe 10-15 years ago of making the plots player driven, and have have a mix of World Driven Plots by staff. Specifically, Stuff that was like DragonThralls, Copper Wars, Kryl leaving the hive like the movie aliens(Way back when). I know there was garbage stuff that happened with plainsman etc, but please toss a bone.
2. Remove the Glass ceiling for PCs. Let there be Lieutenant Byn Sergeant PCs, One Red Robe Templar PC, A High Noble, Etc.
100% both of these, well, maybe not the nobility side or Templars, I agree that those are a bit much power for players to wield codedly. Not because of trust but because to fully represent the power that is a Red Robe they would need to be basically invincible compared to other players.
That said, I would love to see Byn Lts playable, AoD Lieutenants also. Hell, throw it up and let people play a Marshall in the Garrison (if its the correct rank, I think it is but idk for sure.)
.
I would also absolutely love an overarcing and far more present staff ran meta-plot. Is it a bunch of work? I have no idea. But I am sure it could quite easily be figured out and then every month or so something big happens to shift the gameworld. Maybe the gith plot that has been happening for years finally gets the full love and attention it should and beseiges Allanak. Maybe they take over Luir's for that month and it is on us the players to fight back and win the Outpost back. Or not.
I agree with above.
I don't think it is just a matter of the plots but its the narrative that has to change especially for allanak.
Allanak won against Tuluk. They are so damn powerful nothing can threaten their walls. There are black robes and who knows what else protecting the city. This perception needs to begin going away.
They can't lose the city but they can lose other things like the valley. Mantis/gith alliance take it over. As soon as they rally the troops to take it back by force. Guess what tuluk stirs. Potential losses of soliders is unacceptable with unknown threat of tuluk. Sensing weakness Mantis and gith begin sending raiding and scouting groups into the city through underground. Meanwhile economy suffers, things cost more and merchants can't pay as much, pushing people to poverty and making coins much harder to come by.(economy update ;D)
When there are problems, people will strive to work to fix them, even if its small improvements, leading groups to get wood from the grey, scouting parties into the pah, leading charges against pushing gith/mantis hordes. This is why it used to be that a single raider could have a unit after then for robbing a grebber. The better the sense of real threat to the lives and homes of PCs the more they will rise up to do something with it, for good or bad.
For example, there was a constant threat of kyrl in tuluk, so the thorn barrier was erected. Culling parties went into the grey to cut down hordes of kyrl. New kryl based crafts were introduced. A lot of plots and accomplishments came out of this one narrative. And sure it was due to an HRPT which revamped the grey with kryl instead of halflings which required a lot of work but it was the right spirit of the stuff that the players needed to continue to make the game fun for themselves months afterwards.
re: Scribble with Chalk
QuoteInner city scribble
Don't they last a fair bit as is? Inside rooms surely persist. If you mean on random walls and streets - I'm 50/50 on that, considering wind and sand scouring taking place at the best of times, and game chalk isn't exactly finely ground, super-glue like compounds we have in modern times. Heh.
Did you manage to take a look at the timer before it starts to degrade?
I still think for playability sake, we should triple or increase the timer tenfold for everything other than 'wilderness'
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on June 13, 2020, 02:09:16 PM
Status of tweaking magick subguilds. I sent in a request about the Nilazi subguild in specific and it seems like others echo similar issues for different subguilds. Will we be seeing a change in the spell suite for some of these subguilds or new spells added entirely? When should we expect to see those changes? Will they be represented in game by a planned event?
For reference my request was a year ago and I was assured it had sparked staff discussion and that's the last I've heard of it.
Could I have my question added to the question cue, please?
Sure Shabago will list it next time they get around to updating the list. Please refrain from bumps. We get to it when we get to it.
How about removing all drops over 4 rooms in the wilderness? "Shrink" the drops like the sinkhole north of Allanak. We ought to call that thing the Plot Hole for how many characters and plots its abruptly terminated over the years.
I'm not a great fan of these "instant death" falls. Not only do they stand a good chance of killing someone who makes a simple typo or other code error, I also think they have a depressing affect on willingness to adventure. "I could go explore this thing, but the chances of my character dying on a single skill roll are so high that I'd rather just not." If we make these rooms 4 drops, max, that's still a danger, but not nearly so fatal a one. It also opens up the possibilities of people needing to be rescued from these holes.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 18, 2020, 05:55:09 PM
How about removing all drops over 4 rooms in the wilderness? "Shrink" the drops like the sinkhole north of Allanak. We ought to call that thing the Plot Hole for how many characters and plots its abruptly terminated over the years.
I'm not a great fan of these "instant death" falls. Not only do they stand a good chance of killing someone who makes a simple typo or other code error, I also think they have a depressing affect on willingness to adventure. "I could go explore this thing, but the chances of my character dying on a single skill roll are so high that I'd rather just not." If we make these rooms 4 drops, max, that's still a danger, but not nearly so fatal a one. It also opens up the possibilities of people needing to be rescued from these holes.
That would be nice, but I do think there should be things that require magickal effects to traverse such as flying, heat resistance, uh water breathing maybe? That said, I HATE death traps in a permadeath game. More often than not it's a failure on the games part to communicate how dangerous the thing actually was. No, I wouldn't walk straight off a massive cliff, nor plunge head first into the deep silt, nor step over the rim of a volcano. I may enter a relatively normal looking cave, but not one littered with bones, however. If it's not properly flagged the blame is NOT on the player! I would much prefer a "do you want to do this" for all those leaps you can toggles, or alternatively treat them as if something your PC wouldn't do willingly unless under a magickal effect. Your PC won't knowingly eat something that's poisonous (in most cases), and will only do so after poisoning something edible. But I agree for the most part.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 18, 2020, 05:55:09 PM
How about removing all drops over 4 rooms in the wilderness? "Shrink" the drops like the sinkhole north of Allanak. We ought to call that thing the Plot Hole for how many characters and plots its abruptly terminated over the years.
I'm not a great fan of these "instant death" falls. Not only do they stand a good chance of killing someone who makes a simple typo or other code error, I also think they have a depressing affect on willingness to adventure. "I could go explore this thing, but the chances of my character dying on a single skill roll are so high that I'd rather just not." If we make these rooms 4 drops, max, that's still a danger, but not nearly so fatal a one. It also opens up the possibilities of people needing to be rescued from these holes.
How do holes even get that big in a desert with winds like this unless they are being maintained by someone or something?
You would think that over a relatively short time, a large hole would get filled up by dirt and sand.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on June 18, 2020, 05:55:09 PM
How about removing all drops over 4 rooms in the wilderness? "Shrink" the drops like the sinkhole north of Allanak. We ought to call that thing the Plot Hole for how many characters and plots its abruptly terminated over the years.
I'm not a great fan of these "instant death" falls. Not only do they stand a good chance of killing someone who makes a simple typo or other code error, I also think they have a depressing affect on willingness to adventure. "I could go explore this thing, but the chances of my character dying on a single skill roll are so high that I'd rather just not." If we make these rooms 4 drops, max, that's still a danger, but not nearly so fatal a one. It also opens up the possibilities of people needing to be rescued from these holes.
Having fallen down the sinkhole a good few times, one of which was as an indie employer of other PCs, it definitely brings little more to the game than a needless end to characters and plots. Flee causing you to dive into a pit of certain death at noon with clear weather is pretty questionable; I'm fairly sure that if I'm ever in a dangerous situation where I need to escape, I will be able to move at a run while maintaining the presence of mind not to run full-tilt into the nearest wall when the other 3 cardinal directions are completely free of hazards. Two different problems but both rather silly.
Just fyi pretty sure you can specify a flee direction once you reach a certain breakpoint in the skill.
And I really like the concept of climb checks being barriers that can't just be muscled through. I'm for flee not yeeting you off cliffs, but removing them because players are typoing or not respecting their lethality seems excessive.
If no fall is fatal then it's just an annoying delay to scale, and eventually anyone with the time will be able to brute force attempt their way up.
You can always specify a direction, there is a check for going in the correct one though.
I think sandstorms kill more than the flee command, but they're both kind of ridiculous.
I figure at the end of a week now, I can consider most rebuttals/comments and such made at this stage. I'll re-lock at this point, update the other lists and get replies out tonight/tomorrow.
Appreciate the civil discussion on all of this, guys and gals.
A couple of people have mentioned wanting to be able to reply to my commentary stuff, so I'll re-open this as well, for such.
For now, I won't be taking more suggestions/adds or the like. This is purely as a means to discuss what is already being covered.
Thank you both, Shabago and Brokkr for replying. Though it sounds like it's not exactly the direction I was hoping you'd go in, I am glad that it was something that you guys found useful.
I don't think anyone who hears a juicy secret should be obligated to spill the beans to anyone. Taking sensible RP into consideration should be the highest priority, not trying to hasten a plot unfolding or shooting your own foot for no reason, other than staff encouraging it.
in response to shabago's plots n stuff:
i think time has a dampening effect on this stuff. the timeline of events, of plots, of player-made clans continues to spread out and seems to act as a deterrent to being proactive.
granted this is an observation of an on/off player, but it seems like we're creating an environment where the metagame behind achieving long-term objectives is to just turtle up and play it safe. spread plot from lord whatever and I'm likely to die. spread plot from crime master and I'm likely to die. if i were to try and make shit more interesting it would just hurt my chances of being the next Samos or whatever. it's hard to see the incentive, so we're all inflicting these boring ass played out "go on a patrol" plots on each other.
it's not a criticism of staff or players or trump, and i don't have a solution, but it does seem to at least play into the topic of plots.
I think something that might be interesting to see if for the game to promote more PC based clans in areas that have less people and staff support.
From my perspective, I agree the current system is somewhat of a deterrent, along with the approach of support in the game. The amount of effort it takes on a player to create and fund a small clan or crew does not seem to be encouraged or rewarded by the game or staff. Quite frankly most of the support in this game is clan based, if you are not in the clan you aren't often involved in the supported clan activities/plots which is a deterrent all on its own. This is especially true if you are trying to start anything other that a hunter/gather group.
At the same time PC clans and crews emerging and declining are a great source of new and fresh content that should be promoted. There should be two stages to warehouses, just a warehouse and warehouse with guard (which would act like an apartment rent NPC) allowing more then one person to enter a warehouse. Maybe add a cost for every additional who can access the warehouse.
The current system sounds good on paper but it is only used once or twice a year perhaps it should be revised even if its in more remote locations.
Quote from: Khorm on June 30, 2020, 12:12:15 PM
stuff, good stuff
People who got to be legendary went out and did legendary things and survived. Against the odds. There seems to be a current of wanting to accomplish something "meaningful", but also, if you will, being sure that it is going to be "this character" that does it. So a perception that hunkering down and not doing the things that make a character legendary will lead to that. When part of the premise on our side is not everyone is going to make it, that you can't determine at the front end if a character will get things accomplished. That the game isn't about succeeding, it is about overcoming (or not) the challenges.
Quote from: Dresan on June 30, 2020, 12:36:00 PM
Stuff that includes stuff about warehouses
There was a change made so warehouses have an apartment master, just like apartments. Once you have been set up for a warehouse, you can rent through them. NPCs are all sort of custom, so you still have to go through Staff for them.
@ Brokkr
I've seen them and it was a solid addition. Though not sure if it makes sense for Redstorm to require it to be you starting location before you can rent there given the nature of the town.
My suggestion was to basically streamline mini PC clan compounds using warehouses. Frankly if players could give more members of his crew access to his warehouse then it would promote creation of PC groups. This content would not make my character feel legendary, it still feels quite basic reward for being active in this game and being to be able to generate those amounts of coins regularly while finding other active people to work with you despite other staff sponsored clans offering everything short of steel weapons.
Additionally:
- Maybe there would be a limit of 6 people, with ever additional person an additional cost to rent.
- Of course, option for a custom PC compound would still be there if all tribulation are met.
Quote from: Brokkr on June 30, 2020, 02:41:13 PM
Quote from: Khorm on June 30, 2020, 12:12:15 PM
stuff, good stuff
People who got to be legendary went out and did legendary things and survived. Against the odds. There seems to be a current of wanting to accomplish something "meaningful", but also, if you will, being sure that it is going to be "this character" that does it. So a perception that hunkering down and not doing the things that make a character legendary will lead to that. When part of the premise on our side is not everyone is going to make it, that you can't determine at the front end if a character will get things accomplished. That the game isn't about succeeding, it is about overcoming (or not) the challenges.
I can appreciate this perspective and I think it's a healthy take on the game; I've always thought of it as something like a "roguelike". I think the issue in my mind comes from the fact that it doesn't feel like it's reflected at the ground level.. there's this dissonance of vision between higher game concepts and core gameplay.
Samos was maybe a shitty example because for better or worse you can't actually do that anymore. the band of possibilities has narrowed and the time investment has lengthened to the point where doing anything meaningful means an incentive to play extremely safe. then you're not legendary, you're just a boring, two rl old PC that hasn't done shit except outlive competition. maybe there needs to be some mechanics or story elements added that encourage moving outside of safe territory and into more dramatic or dangerous elements?
as far as why there's the "be meaningful streak" - idk. i don't have super concrete ideas about this stuff and I don't think any one demographic of staff or player is responsible for it, but I do think it's valuable to consider/think about/discuss the topic.
also it's possible that my read of things is lacking, or more likely that it's super narrow in perspective. maybe it's working for more people than the conversation seems to suggest.
I think one additional thing that also needs to be taken into account when looking into PC clans is that most of the challenges to overcome are not really all IC rather OOC frustrations.
A world where jobs are supposed to be scarce and people are desperate for food/water is not really reflected that well in our game with a small population where every group wants to attract players. Currently if someone wants to attempt this, they need to have massive hours to invest in the game, because they'll need to craft, hunt and generate coins as well as RP and recruit, along with making joining them fun for others. Even if you gather people 3-5 people to work with you, the same frustrations staff faces when dealing with burn out is the same one players face when dealing with people disappearing or storing.
It is a huge OOC effort before even looking at the IC challenges, thus I believe offering non-custom basics functions to players attempting this might encourage players to try a bit more.
That said considering how hard staff try to make their sponsored clan options attractive, I do get the feeling that indies clans are at best annoyances for staff, especially with what seems to be a trend with a number of tribe/clans taking up the role of hunters lately.
Hello,
One thing I would like to see is a change to the sitting code for silt skimmers. As of now, the sitting code is incredibly punishing not only if an NPC attacks your PC, but also cumbersome to navigate while piloting a skimmer. To be more specific, to thoroughly navigate the silt and look for NPC's one must constantly stand, look in all directions, sit, pilot a direction, stand, look, sit, pilot a direction, and on and on. I've found this process incredibly taxing on my fingers physically, as well as difficult in maintaining some semblance of organization of thought, typing ability, and my PC's position. Things get worse when your PC has other PCs' lives in its hands. As a result, emoting becomes a secondary thing. I find this to be a shame, given how fun it is to RP a skimmer pilot.
I suggest the fall off while skimming code be removed.
Quote from: Spider on July 02, 2020, 04:49:19 PM
I suggest the fall off while skimming code be removed.
I've never had the pleasure of skimmer riding. Lol is this what happens when you stand=>walk? That's ridiculous. I knew it was dangerous, but that's borderline bug territory.
Just in case it hasn't been viewed by the people watching this thread, I think re-opening Tuluk would be a good idea for all the reasons talked about in this active thread: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55898.0.html (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,55898.0.html)
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on July 02, 2020, 07:05:48 PM
Quote from: Spider on July 02, 2020, 04:49:19 PM
I suggest the fall off while skimming code be removed.
I've never had the pleasure of skimmer riding. Lol is this what happens when you stand=>walk? That's ridiculous. I knew it was dangerous, but that's borderline bug territory.
No, when you are standing on a skimmer and pilot a particular direction, your PC has a chance to fall off in the silt. Sitting prevents this from happening. The help files detail it, help skimmer.
Has nobody in Zalanthas ever tried tethering themselves to the skimmer?
Probably, but its not a coded feature so we can't actually do it effectively.
Quote from: Lotion on July 02, 2020, 11:57:17 PM
Has nobody in Zalanthas ever tried tethering themselves to the skimmer?
would be nice to see this addressed
concept: prompt an aliases being tied to account instead of character
Being able to switch prompts on the fly and also having a basic set of aliases that of my characters will have would be nice.
Some examples of aliases that I have repeatedly had:
* alias cld change ldesc
* a few aliases for changing between each language, accent, etc
* alias asv assess -v
would improve playability
I imagine if you tether yourself to the skimmer, there are a lot of issues revolving around that as well.
For instance, if you were to still fall off the side, now all of your weight is dangling off the side. Now for a human, that might not be a big issue. But what if a half-giant were to fall over the side? I'm fairly certain the skimmer would capsize, at which point, everyone does, not just the one person who was standing.
I've never played around with skimmers, but I imagine typing
stop
stand
to cancel out your pilot commands wouldn't be hard. Especially in the silt, you shouldn't really be stacking pilot commands anyways, simply because it is that dangerous. Red Storm region is known for its brutal storms, likely in large part due to its proximity to a giant mass of just wide, open silt sea. I imagine the silt sea is very stormy as well, so being seated while moving is likely more to do with shielding yourself from horrendous winds while you're sailing on a rickety set of planks that probably barely floats to begin with.
Quote from: Saellyn on July 03, 2020, 04:54:36 AM
I imagine if you tether yourself to the skimmer, there are a lot of issues revolving around that as well.
For instance, if you were to still fall off the side, now all of your weight is dangling off the side. Now for a human, that might not be a big issue. But what if a half-giant were to fall over the side? I'm fairly certain the skimmer would capsize, at which point, everyone does, not just the one person who was standing.
I've never played around with skimmers, but I imagine typing
stop
stand
to cancel out your pilot commands wouldn't be hard. Especially in the silt, you shouldn't really be stacking pilot commands anyways, simply because it is that dangerous. Red Storm region is known for its brutal storms, likely in large part due to its proximity to a giant mass of just wide, open silt sea. I imagine the silt sea is very stormy as well, so being seated while moving is likely more to do with shielding yourself from horrendous winds while you're sailing on a rickety set of planks that probably barely floats to begin with.
Unfortunately, this is a complete misinterpretation of my post, which may be my fault and/or your lack of interaction with silt skimmers. The commands are not stacked in a queue. Thus, my statement that navigating while piloting a silt skimmer is cumbersome and painful on the fingers.
To be more thorough on what it looks like:
pilot east;stand;l n;l s;l e;sit;pilot e;stand;l n;l s;l e;sit;pilot e... and so on.
Furthermore, I was not suggesting some IC work around, though thanks to those that offered such solutions. I suggested a removal of the fall off while skimming code in order to reduce its cumbersome nature, painful effects on the fingers, and punishing combat consequences.
Vaguely on the topic of more grunt work, vaguely on the topic of more smokables and brought to mind by the new release notes about mount stables... farming. People want it and have mentioned it on discord etc. Would love to see some crude implementation. Many ancient itinerant cultures have developed crude farming simply from the observation that seeds they dropped at certain places would grow. Example, I read at some point that ancient Koreans would plant small clusters or even singular plants along trails they traveled as markers and to gather as they travel. My point in bringing this up is Zalanthan agriculture need not resemble modern western agriculture, therefore farming isn't against setting and can be adapted to fit the setting.
I have seen some people try to farm plants IG, but it would be awesome to see plant farming get coded love like animal breeding gets coded love as shown in the release notes today. It's a harsh desert wasteland but also aren't Inixes herbivous and known for their huge appetites? WTH are they eating when kept in the south? IDK, I think it is ecologically reasonable to allow some very small scale farming if only to support stuff like feeding your inixes at this fancy new Kasix stable [or, don't even allow inixes there].
Plant farming might also open more agriculture type roleplay for those excluded from animal-centric agriculture such as elves as well.
Lastly, people wanted more smokables and have also lamented the economics of spice. Growing smokables would be a blast.
TLDR; people have mentioned wanting farming before and have offered their own awesome ideas. Wanted to mention again now that it is timely.
On the subject of skimmers:
Not being able to stand and tether yourself to a skimmer isn't a bug, it's literally a feature.
We, as staff, WANT the Silt Sea to be deadly. We WANT that experience of you, as a player, thinking "Okay every time I step on this skimmer, my PC can die in a blink. Am I willing to take this risk? Are the gains that high?" We WANT there to be mysteries which, much like the styrax stuff, was literally in game FOR A WHOLE YEAR before people started going "Oh, holy crap, look at this!" There needs to be mystery, and the best way to make mystery stay a mystery is by making Death the price for failing to get the answer.
Now if Staff ever change their direction on this view, I promise you, the Silt Sea won't become any safer. I'll build like I've never built before to throw in threats that can't just be defeated with '>etwo axe' and then I'm sure there will be posts about how totally unfair that is as well.
I prefer the latter to the former. I'm constantly hearing about horrors and not how slippery silt is.
Also you could allow PCs to look while seated on a skimmer and it sounds like it would fix the problem.
Quote from: Shalooonsh on July 16, 2020, 01:25:33 PM
On the subject of skimmers:
Not being able to stand and tether yourself to a skimmer isn't a bug, it's literally a feature.
Now if Staff ever change their direction on this view, I promise you, the Silt Sea won't become any safer. I'll build like I've never built before to throw in threats that can't just be defeated with '>etwo axe' and then I'm sure there will be posts about how totally unfair that is as well.
An area full of death and reward sounds really great.
However, what spider is describing does make the code seem rather clunky. Tethering may be too safe but perhaps it doesn't have to feel as clumpy syntax wise to keep the place dangerous?
ICly dangerous is fun, but OOCly annoying not so much.
Just remember. You've never heard stories about Amos, who swam through the Silt Sea. There's a reason for that.
Quote from: Dresan on July 16, 2020, 01:55:58 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on July 16, 2020, 01:25:33 PM
On the subject of skimmers:
Not being able to stand and tether yourself to a skimmer isn't a bug, it's literally a feature.
Now if Staff ever change their direction on this view, I promise you, the Silt Sea won't become any safer. I'll build like I've never built before to throw in threats that can't just be defeated with '>etwo axe' and then I'm sure there will be posts about how totally unfair that is as well.
An area full of death and reward sounds really great.
However, what spider is describing does make the code seem rather clunky. Tethering may be too safe but perhaps it doesn't have to feel as clumpy syntax wise to keep the place dangerous?
ICly dangerous is fun, but OOCly annoying not so much.
This is really the crux of my point. The silt sea being dangerous is great, but the OOC stuff with falling off a skimmer is painful both physically and mentally. The IG negatives that surround a seated PC heighten those OOC downsides. I don't think the Silt sea ceases to be deadly by removing this code. Furthermore, the addition of other things to make it more deadly is fine by me.
Edited to add: Another option would be to remove the penalty to scan while seated on a skimmer. That'd remove two different command inputs per command cycle, while combing over the silt. This way, NPCs are still as dangerous, but also one does not need to work their fingers as hard. This would also put it closer to the feel of exploring while mounted or walking.
Quote from: Spider on July 16, 2020, 10:39:12 PM
Quote from: Dresan on July 16, 2020, 01:55:58 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on July 16, 2020, 01:25:33 PM
On the subject of skimmers:
Not being able to stand and tether yourself to a skimmer isn't a bug, it's literally a feature.
Now if Staff ever change their direction on this view, I promise you, the Silt Sea won't become any safer. I'll build like I've never built before to throw in threats that can't just be defeated with '>etwo axe' and then I'm sure there will be posts about how totally unfair that is as well.
An area full of death and reward sounds really great.
However, what spider is describing does make the code seem rather clunky. Tethering may be too safe but perhaps it doesn't have to feel as clumpy syntax wise to keep the place dangerous?
ICly dangerous is fun, but OOCly annoying not so much.
This is really the crux of my point. The silt sea being dangerous is great, but the OOC stuff with falling off a skimmer is painful both physically and mentally. The IG negatives that surround a seated PC heighten those OOC downsides. I don't think the Silt sea ceases to be deadly by removing this code. Furthermore, the addition of other things to make it more deadly is fine by me.
Edited to add: Another option would be to remove the penalty to scan while seated on a skimmer. That'd remove two different command inputs per command cycle, while combing over the silt. This way, NPCs are still as dangerous, but also one does not need to work their fingers as hard. This would also put it closer to the feel of exploring while mounted or walking.
Sounds good on the surface, though it detracts from realism.. and quite frankly, a way around this is having actual lookout people come along as a crew. It would be advantageous to bring multiple people with you on a skimmer as crew, not only so they can be effective lookouts while someone else is busy trying to pilot, but they can also be backup pilots, backup medics, etc.
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on July 16, 2020, 11:33:22 PM
Quote from: Spider on July 16, 2020, 10:39:12 PM
Quote from: Dresan on July 16, 2020, 01:55:58 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on July 16, 2020, 01:25:33 PM
On the subject of skimmers:
Not being able to stand and tether yourself to a skimmer isn't a bug, it's literally a feature.
Now if Staff ever change their direction on this view, I promise you, the Silt Sea won't become any safer. I'll build like I've never built before to throw in threats that can't just be defeated with '>etwo axe' and then I'm sure there will be posts about how totally unfair that is as well.
An area full of death and reward sounds really great.
However, what spider is describing does make the code seem rather clunky. Tethering may be too safe but perhaps it doesn't have to feel as clumpy syntax wise to keep the place dangerous?
ICly dangerous is fun, but OOCly annoying not so much.
This is really the crux of my point. The silt sea being dangerous is great, but the OOC stuff with falling off a skimmer is painful both physically and mentally. The IG negatives that surround a seated PC heighten those OOC downsides. I don't think the Silt sea ceases to be deadly by removing this code. Furthermore, the addition of other things to make it more deadly is fine by me.
Edited to add: Another option would be to remove the penalty to scan while seated on a skimmer. That'd remove two different command inputs per command cycle, while combing over the silt. This way, NPCs are still as dangerous, but also one does not need to work their fingers as hard. This would also put it closer to the feel of exploring while mounted or walking.
Sounds good on the surface, though it detracts from realism.. and quite frankly, a way around this is having actual lookout people come along as a crew. It would be advantageous to bring multiple people with you on a skimmer as crew, not only so they can be effective lookouts while someone else is busy trying to pilot, but they can also be backup pilots, backup medics, etc.
Sounds good on the surface as well, but your scouts have the same penalties. They'll have to st, look all directions, sit, etc. Furthermore, good luck getting enough PCs together to accomplish all that. I've tried separating scout and pilot roles, but it did not get any less clunky. Thanks for the suggestion though.
Not sure what realism has to do with a sea of silt and the inability to see as well seated on a skimmer as you can while seated on a war beetle.
I see it as like driving a car. The driver needs to be paying attention more to what's in front of them and how they are carefully handling the vehicle. They can't afford to be rubbernecking. That is dangerous.
On the sea, especially when swells get big, I imagine that the pilot has to not only be trying to manage how to be getting over them properly without tipping over or getting too many waves over the skimmer, but also paying attention to the wind.
Riding animals, while it's kind of true to an extent.. the animals are at least kind of paying attention to what's in front of them already, and just navigating the terrain itself isn't really a danger.
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on July 16, 2020, 11:51:45 PM
I see it as like driving a car. The driver needs to be paying attention more to what's in front of them and how they are carefully handling the vehicle. They can't afford to be rubbernecking. That is dangerous.
On the sea, especially when swells get big, I imagine that the pilot has to not only be trying to manage how to be getting over them properly without tipping over or getting too many waves over the skimmer, but also paying attention to the wind.
Riding animals, while it's kind of true to an extent.. the animals are at least kind of paying attention to what's in front of them already, and just navigating the terrain itself isn't really a danger.
So therefore they shouldn't be able to see well even in front of them or looking into a mirror to check a blind spot, or stopping the car to look up and down an intersection?
I suppose realism must mean making stuff up to justify a position.
Realism means the game behaving like you would expect in the real world. And no, someone concentrating on driving will likely see something in front of them. But very unlikely something to the sides or behind them. I suppose you think skimmers have mirrors on them? lol Sounds like you just don't know how to gracefully lose an argument.
I definitely agree that other crew on the skimmers should be able to be sitting down and be able to look all around without a huge penalty. But still, not penalty completely. After all, you should be able to see more/better if you're standing.
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on July 17, 2020, 02:24:19 AM
Realism means the game behaving like you would expect in the real world. And no, someone concentrating on driving will likely see something in front of them. But very unlikely something to the sides or behind them. I suppose you think skimmers have mirrors on them? lol Sounds like you just don't know how to gracefully lose an argument.
I definitely agree that other crew on the skimmers should be able to be sitting down and be able to look all around without a huge penalty. But still, not penalty completely. After all, you should be able to see more/better if you're standing.
Look who's talking, learn to read.
I was taking your analogy further while staying within the analogy. My argument was never about realism, you brought it up as a misrepresentation of my argument. My argument concerns the OOC pain I've experienced specifically with exploring on a skimmer and do not experience with any other aspect of the game. I've been playing this game off and on for eleven years.
Quote from: Spider on July 17, 2020, 02:34:13 AMLook who's talking, learn to read.
I was taking your analogy further while staying within the analogy. My argument was never about realism, you brought it up as a straw man to my argument. My argument concerns the OOC pain I've experienced specifically with exploring on a skimmer and do not experience with any other aspect of the game. I've been playing this game off and on for eleven years.
I made perfectly valid argument citing realism because it makes sense to not be able to see as well when you're sitting down on the skimmer and even moreso while you are distracted piloting. I brought in the example of driving a car because of course, you can't pay attention to everything around you and drive at the same time safely.
You then took the car analogy "further" and ruined it when you completely failed to make a connection between blind spots, mirrors, stopping at intersections, and piloting a skimmer. These bear no relevance at all, actually. I'm afraid the only one making strawmen is you, when after you butcher up the analogy into something that no long even applies anymore, you condescendingly say my using realism is just making stuff up. On top of that, you tell me to learn how to read.
I don't care how long you've been playing. You've no right to speak rudely.
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on July 17, 2020, 02:56:30 AM
Quote from: Spider on July 17, 2020, 02:34:13 AMLook who's talking, learn to read.
I was taking your analogy further while staying within the analogy. My argument was never about realism, you brought it up as a straw man to my argument. My argument concerns the OOC pain I've experienced specifically with exploring on a skimmer and do not experience with any other aspect of the game. I've been playing this game off and on for eleven years.
I made perfectly valid argument citing realism because it makes sense to not be able to see as well when you're sitting down on the skimmer and even moreso while you are distracted piloting. I brought in the example of driving a car because of course, you can't pay attention to everything around you and drive at the same time safely.
You then took the car analogy "further" and ruined it when you completely failed to make a connection between blind spots, mirrors, stopping at intersections, and piloting a skimmer. These bear no relevance at all, actually. I'm afraid the only one making strawmen is you, when after you butcher up the analogy into something that no long even applies anymore, you condescendingly say my using realism is just making stuff up. On top of that, you tell me to learn how to read.
I don't care how long you've been playing. You've no right to speak rudely.
Fair enough, I didn't mean to be rude with the realism thing, but did with the grace point you made. I do appreciate your view on the passenger vision, but with the way skimmers work as code, I'm not sure how one would go about implementing that. Skimmer code is strange when it comes to the pilot and the passengers. I still disagree with your notion that driving a car means you cannot see objects as well as you could otherwise, we'll just have to chock it up there. I know one can make mistakes with seeing while driving, but one can also make mistakes with seeing while walking. Chance to fail with pilot and scan already does this as far as IG.
I'm passionate about the silt sea. It is an exciting place filled with many RP opportunities. The way the silt code, scan code, and skimmer code converge though, has OOC downsides that in my view hinders such opportunities. I brought up two solutions to resolve those downsides. One being the removal of the falling off code, and the other a change to the scan penalty while sitting on a skimmer. These solutions are strictly OOC measures, and both individually would resolve the OOC downsides. I'm not saying those are the only two, but nothing about my view has anything to do with realism. It is strictly a way to make exploring that region more pleasant on an OOC level.
My apologies for getting worked up and taking it out on you.
Edited to add: It gets frustrating that I am talking about the pain in my hands due to all of the commands I must input, and others bring up realism as a point of disagreement.
I mostly agree with spider on the standing on skimmers thing, especially humans (or stumps etc) standing on the larger skimmers. Smaller skimmer sitting only is perfectly fine.
Another thing that needs to be changed is the ability to get off the skimmer in non deadly depths (shoulder height or less, maybe knee high for stumps).
If the Captain is slain or incapacitated it could potentially lead to a wipe due to the way the order of Captains works, which is more meta than ic. A "commandeer" command to allow the 2ic to take over the skimmer would make sense and also solve a lot of meta problems.
Quote from: Inks on July 17, 2020, 06:25:05 AM
I mostly agree with spider on the standing on skimmers thing, especially humans (or stumps etc) standing on the larger skimmers. Smaller skimmer sitting only is perfectly fine.
Another thing that needs to be changed is the ability to get off the skimmer in non deadly depths (shoulder height or less, maybe knee high for stumps).
If the Captain is slain or incapacitated it could potentially lead to a wipe due to the way the order of Captains works, which is more meta than ic. A "commandeer" command to allow the 2ic to take over the skimmer would make sense and also solve a lot of meta problems.
Inks comment concerning how the code determines pilot brings to mind another possible solution. Instead of the code determining who is pilot by the order in which PCs get on the skimmer, there could be a different command to board the skimmer as pilot or as crew. For example, sit/stand skimmer as pilot, and sit/stand skimmer as crew. That way, while combing a let's say 10x20 room region, the Captain can stand and look for certain NPCs without screwing up the roles should a Captain fall off and need to jump back aboard.
I do like the commandeer idea as well, it would solve one big OOC issue.
Edited to add: However, I do imagine the coding undertaking required to fix room depth interaction, for everyone room that it applies, with getting off a skimmer, as well as how the code determines pilot, might be too much, and requires a simpler solution.
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on July 17, 2020, 02:24:19 AM
lol Sounds like you just don't know how to gracefully lose an argument.
Why was the comment above necessary and how did it help the discussion?
Hot take: I think realism should come third to quality of life and fun in my games. Keep in mind, you're also sailing on a sea of "silt" which is unlike real silt as it's semi-solid and is closer to ash from a volcano. It's not real.
Therefore it could have any effect on a skimmer that we want it to have. It could float more easily if we wanted it to.
Don't we talk about realism only because we know that is the direction of the game the producers want to go in? So we use it to justify our points and they to justify theirs? As an observation; Armageddon is not very realistic.
Quote from: gotdamnmiracle on July 17, 2020, 10:06:44 AM
Hot take: I think realism should come third to quality of life and fun in my games. Keep in mind, you're also sailing on a sea of "silt" which is unlike real silt as it's semi-solid and is closer to ash from a volcano. It's not real.
Therefore it could have any effect on a skimmer that we want it to have. It could float more easily if we wanted it to.
Don't we talk about realism only because we know that is the direction of the game the producers want to go in? So we use it to justify our points and they to justify theirs? As an observation; Armageddon is not very realistic.
I more or less agree, but it took me some time to get there. I have been criticized here for referencing history and literature in my arguments, but I will continue to do so, only in a way that takes it 0% seriously now.
History and "realism," with regards to Armageddon, basically serves the same purpose as metaphor in philosophy. It helps make your argument logically contiguous and thereby organized. It gives a point of reference. It's not a literal call for realism but it is often [not always] a good rhetorical device. When plato mentioned giraffes in his arguments, he was not literally concerned about giraffes, he was making a point. When metaphor, or taking examples from real life, doesn't serve as a good rhetorical device in a given argument, drop it and pick a new implement. Easy peasy.
Quote from: Pew Pew on July 17, 2020, 10:00:12 AM
Quote from: NinjaFruitSalad on July 17, 2020, 02:24:19 AM
lol Sounds like you just don't know how to gracefully lose an argument.
Why was the comment above necessary and how did it help the discussion?
This question, ironically, adds nothing either and just detracts the subject further, back onto a disagreement should have already passed.
When your argument is turned into a strawman and then, someone says I'm just "making stuff up", I don't take kindly to that. Sorry, but I tend to respond to rudeness in kind.
Anyway, while I'm definitely opposed to changing the scan penalties for the pilot, I'm all for lowering it for the other crew. There also may be other creative suggestions to help combat these problems, for example, new built in features to the LOOK <direction> commands when on a skimmer in the silt seas, which may temporarily make your character stand to get a better look - though at the risk of falling should the skimmer move. What we could also do is let one or two characters (aside from the pilot) stand on the skimmer and hold onto the mast for support. By holding onto the mast, you do not risk falling off and you have no penalties to your perception skills. That's win-win I think. Unless somehow the whole mast gets destroyed, in which case everyone is probably screwed anyway.
Other ideas suggested here are also great. Being able to leave the skimmers safely and also to change captain also.. they totally make sense. Again, this is realism, though it greatly benefits the players in this case. On the topic of realism: you just can't have a harsh, gritty world without it.
Skimmer code went in before the penalty to scan when you are sitting. Before the silt automattically hid creatures in it. As few were set to be hiding, you could sail around the Sea of Silt and see pretty much everything. It was not very challenging, and it was completely feasible to explore the Sea of Silt with a merchant class.
Other than the Silt hiding creatures in it, nothing was intentionally done to make it harder. That said, it isn't a bad thing. You don't -have- to stand up every time. You could just pilot around, if you aren't hunting anything in particular.
Debating this here is less likely to result in a change than sending in a request detailing the history of changes that has led to the current situation, the aspects of the situation that are problematic, and leaving your opinion out of it as much as you can.
The whole point of this thread was to offer suggestions and idea of content. Some of which staff have mentioned themselves have sparked some debate.
I admit the thread might have gotten a bit off track with feedback and ideas that are clearly at the producer level or just completely out of the range of 'content'.
However, there is definite merit in discussing ideas and problems with everyone who may or may not be experiencing the same annoying issues together.
Misery likes company after all ;D
Could we pllllllease implemented a way to review/see way messages missed while linkdead AND/OR logged off.
Quote from: Pew Pew on July 28, 2020, 03:38:17 PM
Could we pllllllease implemented a way to review/see way messages missed while linkdead AND/OR logged off.
How would this handle it when you are trying to deliberately disappear and leave doubt about whether you are still alive? How would it react if you have your barrier up in-game? Would it stack up the messages regardless? Would it still take messages for you when your PC is dead?
I want the plausible deniability of not getting Templar commands, for example, without him absolutely knowing that I have to get them the moment I log back in.
please don't add answering machine deus ex machina to a global network of instantaneous messaging through psionics. if anything I'd be behind instances of characters accidentally Waying the wrong person with messages, like you try to way someone and you think it's the right person and you send some secrets to the wrong target. as it is I can already communicate completely without notice to someone in the same room with no chance of (almost) anyone overhearing me. the ability to just drop off a psionic message to someone that they get hours later is, for lack of a better phrase, OP AF. if you want to talk to someone who isn't getting your messages, just pay someone to deliver the message.
Point Taken about the answering machine thing. The main thing I want is a way to review messages if you are linkdead. You could still act like you did not get the message, if you so chose, but having the option should be available. Going linkdead is an OOC issue and should not result in you not "icly knowing" what was said while your connection was dropped OOCly.
Quote from: Pew Pew on July 29, 2020, 08:38:03 AM
Point Taken about the answering machine thing. The main thing I want is a way to review messages if you are linkdead. You could still act like you did not get the message, if you so chose, but having the option should be available. Going linkdead is an OOC issue and should not result in you not "icly knowing" what was said while your connection was dropped OOCly.
Random aside; it is odd to me that people seem to be linkdead more than ever when there are now mobile phone MUD clients, mobile hotspots, and all sorts of tools that allow you to log out in an emergency. I was traveling through the mountains last weekend and lost internet for 20 minutes, but only that; unless you are in Antarctica you don't really have an excuse for being linkdead more than an hour in 2020 AD. I don't care if you are busy, I have 3 jobs and work 80 hrs a week and also miraculously avoid linkdeadness. Frankly I think linkdead people should just do their damndest to log out. We should have 0 tools to help linkdead people, besides maybe a button you can click on armageddon.org to log out IG. I got to assume best intentions but I am willing to bet a lot of people who chronically have issues with being linkdead are feigning internet problems in an era of near constant connectivity because being linkdead also comes with the OOC advantage of allowing your skill learning timers to cool down. If you add an answering machine for linkdead people I guarantee you are going to see more linkdead people: don't incentivize linkdeadness, it will suck for everyone.
The only tool linkdead people need are tools to help them log out because their linkdead presence sucks for everyone else.
There are no skill timers which require you to be logged in or connected to reset. You can go skill up, log out, come back X minutes later and skill up again.
People just forget they're logged in.
Correct, skills have nothing to do with it. I would also argue your point of that everyone in the day of connectivity should not ever go LD. Connections stop and fail all the time and also due to the connectivity the playin population had, we are able to log in at places we never could before. This means on a lunch break or for a file to come in, waiting for your friend or whatever it may be. There are countless occasions to where when people play they suddenly drop off instead of logging out and I think we need to assume people normally would, but life happens. I disagree about not having more for LD players because they leave their PC far more at risk than being logged out. Nothing to gain and everything to lose so to speak.
Lairos and Friday basically summed it up.
Good to know, was just trying to figure out why people are chronically doing something completely preventable.
My core point still stands and is impossible to refute. The only tools linkdead people should get are tools to help them log out.
A way answering machine helps nothing. If I urgently need to way someone IG, I don't want my stun points to be wasted on a Linkdead person. Linkdead people literally get people killed that way.
Linkdead people bring nothing good to the game with their presence so the only tools Linkdead people need are tools to log out, period. And frankly they do not need these tools because quit OOC and about 10 other tools already exist to help them.
I think such tools are useless. If I am link dead due to connectivity issues how would expect someone then to access in order to use them? When many do play from phones like was mentioned it seems useless. On the flip side of non connectivity issues? Yes there is quit ooc but as an example? If my child starts crying or something happens you better believe I wont hesitate to either close the laptop or drop the phone immediately because I'm not going to take the time to type a single thing because RL comes first 100% of the time. I don't see the point. Sending messages and things to offline people has been discussed many times before and I don't see it coming, but it makes some sense only because in normal situations, outside of barrier, you'd be able to find them. Though you'd go to the next person as you do now.
Tools beyond the ones existing are useless, correct. I was just trying to brainstorm new ones:
- When 10 people try to way a linkdead person you get an automated email saying "You forgot to hang up the phone, silly 💋"
- When your linkdead character starts starving the player is sent a picture of their mother/parent saying "Do you need more chocolate milk sweetie? I thought you've learned to clean up after yourself by now!"
OR we can just let people suffer the consequences of their mistake. That is how children learn mommy won't always clean up after them.
But agreed with linz; Psionic voice-mail isn't the cure for linkdeadness.
I would say no to any of the emails unless its after an hour or being ld you get an email reminding you that you should log out. No other prompts should be given pr automatic log outs since that too could be abused. I think it is the way it has been where outside of a reminder that you may have forgotten you are on your own.
Something possible to add for those who are sending ways to LD people is when you send a way their sdesc also has an LD tag or it doesn't allow you to send it with a message as if they're asleep or a different message.
Quote from: lairos on July 29, 2020, 10:05:09 AM
I would say no to any of the emails unless its after an hour or being ld you get an email reminding you that you should log out. No other prompts should be given pr automatic log outs since that too could be abused. I think it is the way it has been where outside of a reminder that you may have forgotten you are on your own.
Something possible to add for those who are sending ways to LD people is when you send a way their sdesc also has an LD tag or it doesn't allow you to send it with a message as if they're asleep or a different message.
If it wasn't obvious the emails were facetious. I could get behind the idea in your second paragraph and have recommended that to staff after they sent me a message about someone I wayed being linkdead. Might as well automate what staff are doing manually. I see no reason for staff not to want it.
Well, sometimes you might get a really spotty connection. I know sometimes with Comcast, their service would suddenly stop, appear to be working for a few minutes, then go down again. This would go on for hours....
A tool to help a linkdead person log off might help in that situation.
I've seen someone linkdead for 8 hours. Honestly, if someone is linkdead (not idling, but their connection has dropped), the game SHOULD kick them off after 10 minutes. For the person I saw linkdead that long, I tried wishing up in the end to see if they could get bumped off the game, because it was beyond ridiculous!
I am genuinely surprised it doesn't. Every other game I've played, if you're linkdead after X amount of time, it boots you from the game...people shouldn't still be lurking hours afterwards like a spectre at the feast. Yes, you shouldn't go linkdead, but life happens. Connections drop, emergencies occur, and so on...
For some reason staff do not have a policy of disconnecting linkdead PCs currently. I know some characters have died of thirst while the player was linkdead and not revived so this policy may be out of fairness to those who died [lol].
But if it were automated somehow as you all are proposing in various ways that might be an agreeable solution. And again I like Lairos's idea too about the echo.
Edit: the reply to this post with citations is a good reminder that though I am busy I should cite sources too.
Staff won't log out linkdead players: fact, source, staff statements, I can dig up logs but I bill $30/hour
Player dying of thirst while linkdead: Some guy on discord. Maybe he was lying, maybe it was before the update, maybe he had a script interfering with the idle script. I bill $1,000,000/hour for digging up discord logs because you cannot pay enough to convince me to join that server again.
Quote from: triste on July 29, 2020, 01:47:42 PM
For some reason staff do not have a policy of disconnecting linkdead PCs currently. I know some characters have died of thirst while the player was linkdead and not revived so this policy may be out of fairness to those who died [lol].
But if it were automated somehow as you all are proposing in various ways that might be an agreeable solution. And again I like Lairos's idea too about the echo.
It's coded that after 1 hour of idle your thirst / hunger levels
stop increasing, same as when linkdead.
Quote from: http://www.armageddon.org/general/updates/view.php?week=48&year=2008
Full people can eat tablets after next reboot -- Nessalin.
People over 1hr idle will no longer lose hunger/thirst (treated as linkdead) -- Nessalin.
Thanks for all the details, I rarely go linkdead [or log in at all really] and didn't know.
Lairos's proposal seems most optimal then. Just automate what staff are doing manually currently -- sending messages to people to say "Sorry that person is linkdead."
Given there are already mechanisms like what Mansa posted it should be easy to do!
Some of us live in regions where the hellscape of winter can take out power and access to the internet for days at a time. Stop assuming every single person has immediate instant access to the internet and that it's their fault if they go linkdead.
Huh. I've gotten staff to log out linkdead players many times in the past. Lots. It just takes a quick wish generally. Maybe policies have changed, but I don't know why they would have.
wish all Dudeface is linkdead at the span, can you purge him please?
I'll pull up the logs where staff refused to log a player off when I am done with work if someone wants them. It was actually the subject of a staff complaint. Point being their policy on this is variable. Therefore all the people asking for an automated solution to linkdead players are in the right; policies with variable enforcement are not good policies and are best remedied by automation. The voicemail idea raises concerns but the other ideas are good here.
As a busy person I have been in favor of the voicemail idea in the past but LindseyBalboa is right that it kills roleplay opportunities.
I guess it's not policy or such, but usually when I send a psi to a LD character (and it seems somewhat important), I think Staff gets notified that it's to a LD player, they'll sometimes send me a message and say 'That person is LD' and then log them off, or just log them off without sending a message. Maybe that doesn't happen as much anymore or it's not official, but enough that I've noticed it as a trend in the past at least.
I also don't think people go LD on purpose for the most part. In my case it's when I'm logging in while it's business hours, and my client disconnects me after not being active for like 2 minutes. Just as well my internet goes out sometimes for an hour or two on end. I think people for the most part try to log off when they can, if not, I'm not aware of the reasons why they would willingly be LD.
See a LD player.. Wish up, staff are there for that kinda thing IMO
Going linkdead is not always preventable. I am sorry, but if my computer literally blows out a puff of smoke, and ceases to work (actually happened once to me, mid game. Not armageddon, but same point.), my first priority is unfortunately not really if I logged out of the game I was playing, but more among the lines of "What in the unholy Krath just happened to my PC?"
In any case, it would be cool if there was some sort of way to at least tell the other side that the person is linkdead :)
I have found the mobile phone app "MudRammer" useful for getting back in to Arm to deal with a linkdead pc. It is for iphone, but there are other free mud client apps for both types of phones.