Here are the existing restrictions to subguild/guild based on race, in black. Additional restrictions that will go in with the new subguilds are in blue. Subguilds with strikethrough are going away with the new list.
---------------------------------
Muls
- cannot be any mage subguild
- cannot be any mage main guild
Half-giant
- can only be _touched magick subguilds
- cannot be sorcerer
- cannot be full guild elementalists
Humans
- only race who can be psionicist
- only race who can be templars
Thryzn
- cannot be bard, con artist, cutpurse, house servant, majordomo, minstrel, rogue, slipknife, thief
- cannot be enforcer, infiltrator, miscreant, pilferer, fence
Desert Elf
- cannot be bard, con artist, cutpurse, house servant, majordomo, minstrel, rogue, slipknife, thief
- cannot be enforcer, infiltrator, miscreant, pilferer, fence
City Elf
- cannot be raider, scout, stalker, adventurer, dune trader
The delf changes would make it even more fucking annoying to play out any kind of wilderness-to-city conflict because of how anyone treats any wilderness conflict in this game. People legit just zoom to cities and then immediately feel safe. They shouldn't feel safe against the desert ambushers and if one of those desert ambushers so chose a city subguild and effectively wrote their whole character around it, they should be allowed their city subguild because they made a tradeoff.
There are entire tribal roles in some tribes dedicated to killing people who are otherwise safe in cities. There are tribes who have it written into their documentation that they steal, kidnap, and trade for children who've lived the start of their lives in slums. The delf changes just make it more annoying to do any kind of meaningful conflict and even less reason to interact with the cities. And on top of that celves face no changes? There are entire docs based around desert elves literally stealing stuff within cities, stealing stuff outside of cities. Not raiding or trading and calling it stealing, but actually stealing stuff. Why eliminate the specialist role? Because an elf can sneak inside and outside? The race meant to cause conflict and skulk is skulking around?
I made a suggestion some months back about how stealth should be broken up in three ways, which add up to whatever the max is. A generic stealth skill, a city stealth skill, and a wilderness stealth skill. Generic is always called, and adds with the relevant skill to its 100% max in the relevant environment. Meaning a city elf has to sneak in the wilderness to be a sneak-god outside, and has to level sneaking outdoors. Same for desert elves.
The only ones I really like in here are the Muls and Half-giant restrictions, since they're thematic and on-point for balancing.
The rest I feel are just stepping on player creativity, especially if you consider classes just an abstract bundle of skills. Personally I haven't paid much attention to the class-lore since honor got nerfed outta Warrior, and all the nobles became Miscreants.
There is no reason delves cannot learn city skills. Several tribes have 'we do crime in the city' in their docs (Two Moons, Dune Stalkers, probably other tribes that I haven't played in). With the way delves can move between tribes, a delf can easily have spent part of their youth or even later years in the city.
[Edited out some detail about specific criminal activity in tribal docs - staff, feel free to ask.]
Every other race can learn to hide and sneak in both cities and outdoors, but because they're elves and they spend the majority of their time in one location... they can't?
By documentation, city elves can go outside the walls and travel. By documentation, desert elves can go inside cities - some tribes have members that will spend extensive time in cities.
Why would a city elf not learn how to hide and sneak outside city walls, when they have no other real elf tricks out on the sands?
Why could a desert elf not learn to blend in when visiting a city? By repeated staff statements on the GDB, elves are stealthy and tricky and should rely on that. Why wouldn't a desert elf try to learn their one real defense in a city?
Stealth needs to be reworked, yes. Desert elves could be WORSE in cities than outdoors, and that would make sense. However, this is a change to a system that does not exist in a vacuum. Highly against this change to subguilds, very much in favor of reworking the stealth system as a whole instead.
These feel like appropriate restrictions to me.
I mean, everything seems mostly fine, I just dislike the idea the Desert Elves can't have city skills, but City Elves can have wilderness skills. It's weird and stomps on playability options for unique characters.
Quote from: HazelHomewrecker on May 27, 2023, 01:56:48 PM
I mean, everything seems mostly fine, I just dislike the idea the Desert Elves can't have city skills, but City Elves can have wilderness skills. It's weird and stomps on playability options for unique characters.
Ever tried playing a city elf in the desert? If you ride a mount you need to hand in your ears, and the admins absolutely (correctly) refuse to give you desert running.
If you're a city elf outside the walls, good luck to you. You'll need it.
Quote from: Trevalyan on May 27, 2023, 01:58:17 PM
Quote from: HazelHomewrecker on May 27, 2023, 01:56:48 PM
I mean, everything seems mostly fine, I just dislike the idea the Desert Elves can't have city skills, but City Elves can have wilderness skills. It's weird and stomps on playability options for unique characters.
Ever tried playing a city elf in the desert? If you ride a mount you need to hand in your ears, and the admins absolutely (correctly) refuse to give you desert running.
If you're a city elf outside the walls, good luck to you. You'll need it.
I've outwitted and outmanoeuvred PC Delves, fought Gith, Carru and Kryl successfully as a City elf with Outdoor Subguild. And I was a hunter for Kurac, and a rather good one at that.
Half giant already can't become full guild eles because touched cannot become full guild eles.
Will delves be allowed to play a mundane version of drov/whiran touched? It looks like it would be worth it just for the city hide flags.
Quote from: Halaster on May 27, 2023, 11:44:30 AM
Thryzn
- cannot be bard, con artist, cutpurse, house servant, majordomo, minstrel, rogue, slipknife, thief
- cannot be enforcer, infiltrator, miscreant, pilferer, fence
Desert Elf
- cannot be bard, con artist, cutpurse, house servant, majordomo, minstrel, rogue, slipknife, thief
- cannot be enforcer, infiltrator, miscreant, pilferer, fence
Basically:
Bard, Con Artist, House Servant, Rogue, Slipknife, Thief.
What do these classes bring to the table?
| Skill | Class |
| Bard | House Servant | Con Artist | Rogue | Slipknife | Thief |
| Hide (City) | | Advanced | Master | Advanced | Advanced | Advanced |
| Sneak (City) | | | | Advanced | Advanced | Advanced |
| Climb | | | | Master | | |
| Steal | Advanced | | | | | Master |
| Sleight of Hand | Advanced | Advanced | Master | | Master | Master |
| Lockpick | | | | Advanced | | |
| Poisoning | | | | | Advanced | |
| Pilot | | Master | | | | |
| Scan | Master | Master | Advanced | Advanced | | Advanced |
| Listen (City) | Master | Master | Master | | | |
| Watch | Advanced | Advanced | Advanced | Advanced | | |
| Peek | | | Advanced | | | Master |
| Search | | | Advanced | Advanced | | |
| Haggle | Advanced | | Master | | | |
| Value | | | Advanced | | | |
| Crafting |
| Instrument Making | Master | | | | | |
| Cooking | | Master | | | | |
| Floristry | | Advanced | | | | |
| Perks |
| City Stealth | | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes |
Short review:
Thryzn and Desert Elves cannot get 'lockpick', 'backstab', 'peek', 'steal' or 'sleight of hand' in a class or subclass.
They
can get city stealth by picking Outlaw or a touched magick subclass. (Touched Drovian and Touched Whiran)
They
can get city listen with Fighter, Soldier, Laborer class, or Bounty Hunter, Master Trader, or Touched Whiran subclass.
Long Review:
This change primarily limits the class/subclass combination that gives outdoor classes the ability to use (with high proficiency) sneak and/or hide inside the cities.
Those areas of the game are typically Tuluk city streets, Allanak city streets, and Allanak's criminal quarter - the Labyrinth. This would prevent
long-term playability of those races, in those areas.
The question is - does it make sense within the game world to have a master thief and burglar who is a Thryzn - whose job is primarily to infiltrate nobles houses, picking locks, and stealing priceless artifacts from their vault?
Does it make sense to have a house servant who is a desert elf, who can steal scrolls and books and infiltrate and spy upon nobles?
These changes primarily push desert focused races outside from the city, and prevent them from operating
long-term in Tuluk, Allanak, and the Labyrinth.
Take the Desert-Elf restrictions away from those who decide to play a Two Moons.
"Problem Solved.
Problem Staying Solved.
Rangers Lead the Way!"
8)
Quote from: DesertT on May 27, 2023, 03:11:57 PM
Take the Desert-Elf restrictions away from those who decide to play a Two Moons.
"Problem Solved.
Problem Staying Solved.
Rangers Lead the Way!"
8)
That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists :)
Quote from: mansa on May 27, 2023, 03:13:55 PM
That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists :)
Where do I find this juicy truth?!?!
I don't see it in the info regarding Two Moons on the website. :-\
Quote from: DesertT on May 27, 2023, 04:38:59 PM
Quote from: mansa on May 27, 2023, 03:13:55 PM
That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists :)
Where do I find this juicy truth?!?!
I don't see it in the info regarding Two Moons on the website.
:-\
The functionality exists -
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49825.msg1082219.html#msg1082219
I'm not saying what you specifically ask for exists.
Thank-you for the clarification, Mansa.
I dedicate my 1200th post to you, good Sir!!
Quote from: mansa on May 27, 2023, 03:13:55 PM
Quote from: DesertT on May 27, 2023, 03:11:57 PM
Take the Desert-Elf restrictions away from those who decide to play a Two Moons.
"Problem Solved.
Problem Staying Solved.
Rangers Lead the Way!"
8)
That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists :)
That's a fantastic idea, actually. Making a Two Moons specific subguild that -does- get city stealth.
Quote from: Halaster on May 27, 2023, 04:58:32 PM
That's a fantastic idea, actually. Making a Two Moons specific subguild that -does- get city stealth.
Halaster, I could kiss you!!
I'm riding down now...
ETA: Disregard that. I forgot that it's heavily frowned upon, and sometimes moderated, to express either like or dislike for a Staffer.
My Bad!! ::) :o 8)
Quote from: DesertT on May 27, 2023, 05:04:11 PM
Quote from: Halaster on May 27, 2023, 04:58:32 PM
That's a fantastic idea, actually. Making a Two Moons specific subguild that -does- get city stealth.
Halaster, I could kiss you!!
I'm riding down now...
ETA: Disregard that. I forgot that it's heavily frowned upon, and sometimes moderated, to express either like or dislike for a Staffer.
My Bad!!
::) :o 8)
Breaking GDB rules here, myself.
Shut. Up.
Quote from: Halaster on May 27, 2023, 04:58:32 PM
Quote from: mansa on May 27, 2023, 03:13:55 PM
Quote from: DesertT on May 27, 2023, 03:11:57 PM
Take the Desert-Elf restrictions away from those who decide to play a Two Moons.
"Problem Solved.
Problem Staying Solved.
Rangers Lead the Way!"
8)
That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists :)
That's a fantastic idea, actually. Making a Two Moons specific subguild that -does- get city stealth.
That's not a bad idea at all. And upon further reflection, I think the changes are totally fine as-is as long as there is the allowance that you can burn a spec app to get city-specific subguilds as a d-elf. That requires justification. City elves don't actually have any new restrictions I just smoke a lot of weed
and brought them into the conversation for balance.tl;dr +1 but allow spec apps w/ justifications for d-elves to pick city subguilds. leave main guild restrictions as-is.
EDIT by Halaster: Sorry, I didn't change anything. I accidentally clicked Modify instead of Quote in meaning to reply to this. So it looks like I edited it, but I didn't.
Dislike the subguild restrictions.
The unintended consequence is that it's just going to make more delves be magickers.
Quote from: LidlessEye on May 27, 2023, 02:15:02 PM
Quote from: Trevalyan on May 27, 2023, 01:58:17 PM
Quote from: HazelHomewrecker on May 27, 2023, 01:56:48 PM
I mean, everything seems mostly fine, I just dislike the idea the Desert Elves can't have city skills, but City Elves can have wilderness skills. It's weird and stomps on playability options for unique characters.
Ever tried playing a city elf in the desert? If you ride a mount you need to hand in your ears, and the admins absolutely (correctly) refuse to give you desert running.
If you're a city elf outside the walls, good luck to you. You'll need it.
I've outwitted and outmanoeuvred PC Delves, fought Gith, Carru and Kryl successfully as a City elf with Outdoor Subguild. And I was a hunter for Kurac, and a rather good one at that.
Nice. It's certainly possible to be a good c-elf hunter, even a good c-elf merc. It does require thinking, though, to overcome the handicaps.
Quote from: Halaster on May 27, 2023, 04:58:32 PM
Quote from: mansa on May 27, 2023, 03:13:55 PM
Quote from: DesertT on May 27, 2023, 03:11:57 PM
Take the Desert-Elf restrictions away from those who decide to play a Two Moons.
"Problem Solved.
Problem Staying Solved.
Rangers Lead the Way!"
8)
That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists :)
That's a fantastic idea, actually. Making a Two Moons specific subguild that -does- get city stealth.
Enough d-elf tribes have reason, cause, and tribal role enough that they regularly send skulks/assassins out to cities that there could be a catch-all "city-born" or "pit-assassin" subguild exclusive to d-elves except the ones that literally dont ever visit cities, ever. which isnt alot
Is that a player deciding they have a gap in their utility or a lore/documentation reason though?
Quote from: betweenford on May 27, 2023, 11:46:29 PM
Quote from: Halaster on May 27, 2023, 04:58:32 PM
Quote from: mansa on May 27, 2023, 03:13:55 PM
Quote from: DesertT on May 27, 2023, 03:11:57 PM
Take the Desert-Elf restrictions away from those who decide to play a Two Moons.
"Problem Solved.
Problem Staying Solved.
Rangers Lead the Way!"
8)
That could be a clan-specific subclass, which already exists :)
That's a fantastic idea, actually. Making a Two Moons specific subguild that -does- get city stealth.
Enough d-elf tribes have reason, cause, and tribal role enough that they regularly send skulks/assassins out to cities that there could be a catch-all "city-born" or "pit-assassin" subguild exclusive to d-elves except the ones that literally dont ever visit cities, ever. which isnt alot
So - how would that subguild be different from slipknife/thief/whatever? Why do we need to restrict delf subguilds, then add a new subguild because these restrictions never made sense in the first place? 'Cities' also includes Luirs, why wouldn't a delf be able to sneak around there or even pick some pockets?
Delves are not thryzn, they have been nowhere near as isolated from larger settlements.
Quote from: LindseyBalboa on May 27, 2023, 09:00:27 PM
...as long as there is the allowance that you can burn a spec app to get city-specific subguilds as a d-elf. That requires justification.
I like that idea too!
Quote from: Nao on May 28, 2023, 03:19:54 AM
So - how would that subguild be different from slipknife/thief/whatever? Why do we need to restrict delf subguilds, then add a new subguild because these restrictions never made sense in the first place? 'Cities' also includes Luirs, why wouldn't a delf be able to sneak around there or even pick some pockets?
Delves are not thryzn, they have been nowhere near as isolated from larger settlements.
We don't need to make a new subguild for a tribe. But we can, and it could have some differences than the existing ones.
Based on the feedback, I like the idea of making the city-based subguilds to be specapps for delves. By default, I don't think delves should be able to pick city subguilds. Part of that is because they're 1 karma. Delves are a part of the first batch of things someone opens with karma, so it's not uncommon for people to immediately play one, but they don't necessarily fully understand everything about playing them. Restricting them to only the 'standard' things a delf can pick seems reasonable. And then using a specapp and/or adding a tribe specific subguild could allow more established players to get around the restrictions.
That's my thinking currently on it. I'm happy to have my mind changed again.
d elves should be nervous / claustrophobic even in environments like morins / luirs. lack of super high walls shouldnt be a justification. the busy social life is there, and is enough to give them goosebumps. therefore they shouldnt have city skills.
With the unique Two Moons relationship with Allanak, I feel it would be more appropriate than all other delf tribes combined, but I'm fine with making it a spec app process.
My main problem with making this sort of guild combination a specapp-only type thing, is that you already only have so few of them per year, and having to spend it on something like a MUNDANE subguild is going to feel so horrible unless you really really really really SUPER DUPER want to play that concept and want nothing else.
Honestly, with things requiring specapps coming more often, like how you might be turning splintered subguild mages into specapps, with full guild mages being the norm, why not increase the yearly specapp limit to 3 instead of 2. I could 100% justify spending a specapp on a delf with a city subguild that way. Just a thought.
Who asked for this, anyway? Where did this suggestion stem from?
Quote from: najdorf on May 28, 2023, 09:48:36 AM
d elves should be nervous / claustrophobic even in environments like morins / luirs. lack of super high walls shouldnt be a justification. the busy social life is there, and is enough to give them goosebumps. therefore they shouldnt have city skills.
Morins and Luirs are two very different places. Luirs is a tribal trade hub with a lot of delf presence. This is reflected by a number of delf NPCs, delf traders, and room descriptions/room echos, the proximity to the tablelands and so on. Luirs is not associated with a city state, there are no templars ruling it. It is not the same as Morins and would not evoke the same response.
Elves have high wisdom and are fast learners, and there's the whole thieving thing. It makes no sense whatsoever that they couldn't learn to pick a pocket or a lock just because they're tribal.
Quote
Based on the feedback, I like the idea of making the city-based subguilds to be specapps for delves. By default, I don't think delves should be able to pick city subguilds. Part of that is because they're 1 karma. Delves are a part of the first batch of things someone opens with karma, so it's not uncommon for people to immediately play one, but they don't necessarily fully understand everything about playing them. Restricting them to only the 'standard' things a delf can pick seems reasonable. And then using a specapp and/or adding a tribe specific subguild could allow more established players to get around the restrictions.
Is "1 karma players make delves with city subclasess that hang around in cities too much" a common problem? If so, can these subclasses just be two karma on delves?
I've seen
1. Delves with no utility skills because something like heavy combat/mage is so popular, leaving all the skinning/foraging/fletching to tribemates.
2. Loner delves
but not really 'that delf who hangs out in the city too much'.
Lore first, OOC skill selection second.
Lore wise, I can't think of a Desert Elf clan where members would realistically spend enough time in the city to gain city specific skills. Dune Stalkers -certainly- do not. As for Two Moons...those in the tribe (and it has been awhile since I remember anyone doing this) that were in their background were brought into the tribe at a later stage of life (ie teen+), were codedly city elves, not desert elves.
Quote from: Brokkr on May 28, 2023, 03:25:53 PM
Lore first, OOC skill selection second.
Lore wise, I can't think of a Desert Elf clan where members would realistically spend enough time in the city to gain city specific skills. Dune Stalkers -certainly- do not. As for Two Moons...those in the tribe (and it has been awhile since I remember anyone doing this) that were in their background were brought into the tribe at a later stage of life (ie teen+), were codedly city elves, not desert elves.
Tossed in a request. There are 2 tribes with lore of significant time spent in cities by desert-dwelling members.
Quote from: Brokkr on May 28, 2023, 03:25:53 PM
Lore first, OOC skill selection second.
Lore wise, I can't think of a Desert Elf clan where members would realistically spend enough time in the city to gain city specific skills. Dune Stalkers -certainly- do not. As for Two Moons...those in the tribe (and it has been awhile since I remember anyone doing this) that were in their background were brought into the tribe at a later stage of life (ie teen+), were codedly city elves, not desert elves.
Dune Stalkers... cannot possibly learn backstab!?
Every celf alive is descended, somewhere along the line, from a delf who couldn't hack it in the sands and opted for a city dwelling existence. Over the King's Ages it would amount to untold thousands or even millions of elves shifting from the desert to the city (and perhaps sometimes also the reverse). For those individual elves in question, they somehow managed to make the adjustment. Maybe it wasn't easy, maybe they endured emotional stresses in the process but it still happened. Thousands and thousands of times over. I think the emotional response expected in these discussions is sometimes over exaggerated.
Added to this is the fact that the Known World is an unreasonably small scrap of land. Even if you RP taking it slow you can still go from one end to the other in well, well under a day (half even). This idea of delves being somehow akin to the uncontacted tribes in the Amazon is absurd. An uncontacted tribesman would indeed be traumatized at entering a city. A wild elf in an extremely small Known World where the nearest point of civilization is never more than an hour or so away in any direction is not going to be that traumatized at the ordeal. I'm not saying they won't be emotionally impacted whatsoever but, again, this is not the same thing as an Amazonian from an uncontacted tribe suddenly being thrown into Time's Square in Manhattan!
The other issue as far as I see it is this hyper-interpretation of city vs wilderness stealth. Regardless of what the help files state, no, city hide is not always blending into a crowd. It could also be hiding in a rubbish heap or concealing oneself in a darkened alleyway just outside a road, or literally hundreds of other possibilities as well. In these cases, you're using your surroundings rather than people in order to hide. I see no reason a delf couldn't do these things. Certainly with less familiarity, but let's not pretend like like hiding in bushes and hiding beneath a parked wagon is suuuuuuuch a big difference. It's really not.
Now if you want to say we've implemented these differences for purposes of game balance, that's totally fine. Just say it. But it's certainly not done because it reflects reality. Rather, it's done for the sake of overzealously enforcing policy.
I think as balance ideas goes it makes sense. As an interpretation of these as being two different races when its common for the shift and intermingle between city and desert elf tribes to some degree (Akai Sjir and Sun Runners, Two Moons and Allanak - presumably appropriate Rinthi tribes) seems silly. In fact, I think from a balance perspective, keep this, but in addition, to make city elves more desirable...
Give city-elves a subguild that offers nothing but desert running. Nothing but that. So that your c-elf warrior in the Byn who's been in his background been with the Byn for ten years or whatever and came in as one of those special placed Byn Trooper positions, as example... why wouldn't he have desert run if it's conditioning and this guy's been running the desert for ten years, but that Two Moons who was born as a Nakki c-elf and got adopted in at fourteen or whatever now does?
Why not? We have a subguild to give nothing but custom crafting. One just for poisoning. And it wouldn't offer desert /stealth/, only /running/ which supposedly /all/ elves are proud of.
My two pence for restrictions is..
Allow city elves to be able to have touched magick.
Scrap dwarves and HGs being able to be magick users at all.. they are tanks all on their own without magick to help
Idk. I was thinking about this and it just seems so heavy handed and dismissive of player history and roleplay. "Desert elves might have newbies that do the wrong thing," makes sense but why don't we just trust new players that MIGHT join and MAYBE take a d elf at some point. Karma is trust right?
The other argument is "lore" but in reality there are assumedly ~30 RL years of lore and played history and retold stories showing d elves sneaking around in cities when they learn how to and focus on it.
It makes no sense to claim elves can't learn city stealth, or city elves can't go running. As noted these things are documented in previous player actions and histories. I know for a fact a PC c elf has learned to run the desert, for instance, in the few years I've played here.
As recent as a ~year ago RL files were updated to show a desert elf tribe was nearly destroyed, spent one generation inside a city, then the elves born in that city took off and went running into the wilds and reclaimed their wild running ways.
From the updated Silt Winds help file:
"Long thought to be extinct, a bare handful of Silt Winds were left in the cities at the time of the cataclysm that destroyed 98% of their people. Quickly rallying, and sadly losing themselves to the city for a generation, this desert tribe is one of the few who has fully re-freed themselves from the clutches of the city in order to retake to their wild roots on the sands once more."
So integration into a city is possible - and keeping in mind Brokkr's statement on GDB that elves are tricky and use stealth as first option over brute strength, they'd have learned stealth. The next generation, born in a city, went off and learned to run well enough to move a whole desert elf camp on trade routes in the wild.
The point of this is that elves are one race by help file and theme, and there is documented and role played history by PCs and NPCs that's being tossed. Beyond that, every elf who specializes in dual stealth is one less gick and is also one more PC that probably hunts rogue gicks.
Quote from: LindseyBalboa on May 29, 2023, 09:44:04 AM
Idk. I was thinking about this and it just seems so heavy handed and dismissive of player history and roleplay. "Desert elves might have newbies that do the wrong thing," makes sense but why don't we just trust new players that MIGHT join and MAYBE take a d elf at some point. Karma is trust right?
The other argument is "lore" but in reality there are assumedly ~30 RL years of lore and played history and retold stories showing d elves sneaking around in cities when they learn how to and focus on it.
It makes no sense to claim elves can't learn city stealth, or city elves can't go running. As noted these things are documented in previous player actions and histories. I know for a fact a PC c elf has learned to run the desert, for instance, in the few years I've played here.
As recent as a ~year ago RL files were updated to show a desert elf tribe was nearly destroyed, spent one generation inside a city, then the elves born in that city took off and went running into the wilds and reclaimed their wild running ways.
From the updated Silt Winds help file:
"Long thought to be extinct, a bare handful of Silt Winds were left in the cities at the time of the cataclysm that destroyed 98% of their people. Quickly rallying, and sadly losing themselves to the city for a generation, this desert tribe is one of the few who has fully re-freed themselves from the clutches of the city in order to retake to their wild roots on the sands once more."
So integration into a city is possible - and keeping in mind Brokkr's correct and previous statements on GDB that elves are tricky and use stealth as first option over brute strength, they'd have learned stealth. The next generation, born in a city, went off and learned to run well enough to move a whole desert elf camp on trade routes in the wild.
The point of this is that elves are one race by help file and theme, and there is documented and role played history by PCs and NPCs that's being tossed. Beyond that, every elf who specializes in dual stealth is one less gick and is also one more PC that probably hunts rogue gicks.
"He's got a good point. Damn this is good it needs to be quoted," -Halaster, Discord, General, 7:29 AZMST AM Monday the 29th of May, 2023
I think this is only really a concern because everyone wants to double up on city and wilderness stealth on every character.
Quote from: Armaddict on May 29, 2023, 10:51:32 AM
I think this is only really a concern because everyone wants to double up on city and wilderness stealth on every character.
So what? Why is that even an issue? Should players feel shamed for wanting that? In years past there was no city vs wilderness stealth. There was just... stealth. Then when the skill became divided magically everything changed overnight and we were expected to RP like that's how it's always been. You guys make it out like hiding in bushes and hiding amongst some sort of city-type obstacles is as different as spear fishing is from table tennis. It's really not
that different. I get that they're not the exact same thing, sort of like how riding a horse and riding a camel aren't exactly the same things. They're also not wildly, wildly different either.
I'll also add, these clans with documentation about delves moving to the city for a period of time or vice versa were amusingly written by the very staffers who are/were the most overzealous about not wanting delves in the city or celves to travel. Phrases such as "a rule for thee but not for me" immediately spring to mind.
I'm with the majority concensus here. Who gets what types of stealth (if not stealth itself) needs to be revised.
Quote from: Suhuy on May 29, 2023, 12:47:47 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on May 29, 2023, 10:51:32 AM
I think this is only really a concern because everyone wants to double up on city and wilderness stealth on every character.
So what? Why is that even an issue? Should players feel shamed for wanting that? In years past there was no city vs wilderness stealth. There was just... stealth. Then when the skill became divided magically everything changed overnight and we were expected to RP like that's how it's always been. You guys make it out like hiding in bushes and hiding amongst some sort of city-type obstacles is as different as spear fishing is from table tennis. It's really not that different. I get that they're not the exact same thing, sort of like how riding a horse and riding a camel aren't exactly the same things. They're also not wildly, wildly different either.
I'll also add, these clans with documentation about delves moving to the city for a period of time or vice versa were amusingly written by the very staffers who are/were the most overzealous about not wanting delves in the city or celves to travel. Phrases such as "a rule for thee but not for me" immediately spring to mind.
I'm with the majority concensus here. Who gets what types of stealth (if not stealth itself) needs to be revised.
I miss sorely the days when listen was just listen and you could take your ranger to the bar and eavesdrop just like your merchant. Making it only matter or count for 'wilderness stealth' listening, rather than letting you eavesdrop on people had a couple of effects outside that as well: It made it much less interesting or worthwhile for huntery types sitting at the bar eavesdropping (I used to play this, I don't now, it does nothing because you can't hear shit without burning a subguild for a separate type of listen?), it made it much harder for wilderness types to up their listen. And I get where you can say that it's different trying to hide in a trash heap or blending in with people from ducking behind a bush to where you need a whole different skill for it, but why do you need to entirely different types of listen skill? Are light footsteps so different you can't tell light footsteps from light footsteps, if you're trying to suggest that it's about the listen vs stealth element? And if you're able to hear light footsteps of animals across a league coming in what might be fierce ass winds, why wouldn't you have at least a slightly increased chance of hearing what some guy down the bar is whispering when you're in town?
Quote from: Suhuy on May 29, 2023, 12:47:47 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on May 29, 2023, 10:51:32 AM
I think this is only really a concern because everyone wants to double up on city and wilderness stealth on every character.
So what? Why is that even an issue? Should players feel shamed for wanting that? In years past there was no city vs wilderness stealth. There was just... stealth. Then when the skill became divided magically everything changed overnight and we were expected to RP like that's how it's always been. You guys make it out like hiding in bushes and hiding amongst some sort of city-type obstacles is as different as spear fishing is from table tennis. It's really not that different. I get that they're not the exact same thing, sort of like how riding a horse and riding a camel aren't exactly the same things. They're also not wildly, wildly different either.
I'll also add, these clans with documentation about delves moving to the city for a period of time or vice versa were amusingly written by the very staffers who are/were the most overzealous about not wanting delves in the city or celves to travel. Phrases such as "a rule for thee but not for me" immediately spring to mind.
I'm with the majority concensus here. Who gets what types of stealth (if not stealth itself) needs to be revised.
If it was years past it was decades ago. This wasn't something that came about with the new classes and abilities. It has been hard coded to guild and subguild for a long time, perhaps since the beginning, I do not know. There was a subclass that got stealth skills and had no hard coding, so essentially it did not work, thus pulling it out into an ability so it was visible and consistent.
I actually agree with the original documentation about tribes coming into or leaving the city. I think where disagreement comes is in timeframe. You might be thinking an IC year to adapt to the new environment and I am thinking 15-20 IC years. I also see it as a mental switch, as an elf you are either comfortable in the city or the desert, but never both.
I know some of you think your character should be able to pick up city skills in an IC month or two. Becoming comfortable enough and familiar enough with a city or the desert to pick up relevant skills to me is a much, much longer timeframe. You do not know New York like a native even if you have been there a year. The skills depend on the environment, like how people act and what they notice in a city, or the behaviors of a variety of animals in the desert. Those things take a long while to hone to a level to be useful.
While I know there has been IC history, folks ignoring and not playing to lore do not get to have the lore changed to reflect how they are playing. And yes, things evolve. There used to be Blackwing assassins.
There is only one elven race, but the environment shapes them. Not over a year or two, but over a longer horizon. Also, keep in mind if there is a base state for elves, it is city elves, not desert elves. The largest desert elf tribes are 600-700ish, and in total they number in the thousands. Large city elf tribes are also about that big, but in total they number hundreds of thousands (something players often seem to forget when extolling their own importance in places like the rinth).
Your argument makes no sense in the context of city elves being able to learn desert skills Brokkr.
Anyhow, as for elf tribes who have(and have had) assassins(sometimes even roles given a name within their tribe, damn!!!!) who very much would enter the city, have "assassination" as part of their culture as much as physical attempts at stealing, Lore First, Code Second and whatnot:
Two Moons
Sun Runners
Akei Ta Var
Blackwing
Silt Winds
Dune Stalkers
Red Fang
N'kala, apparently?
That's what, pretty much every desert elf tribe except for the ones that are hard-stanced "nah i basically never visit city locations"?
QuoteIn years past there was no city vs wilderness stealth. There was just... stealth.
This must have been pre-1998, because my very first character was also the one where I learned my assassin could not hide in the wilderness. That was before subclasses. Subclasses that went in were 2-3 skills. Some of them had something like apprentice city-sneak, which allowed them to double up on the stealths, but in order to do it, you had to also effectively take skills that were entirely irrelevant to your main skillset. Then extended subs came, and it became more common because the skillsets became better. Not fully amazing, but good enough to use in most cases. Then the class revision came. You have the most powerful classes the game has ever had, fully functioning subguilds, where combinations can effectively give you every non-crafting skill you could possibly need...and the big deal is that you need your desert elf to be fully functional in the city as well.
This kind of character design in a roleplaying game is fully flawed, and it would be easily recognizable if this were anything other than a text game. These models are the games where you go through and do the quests once, and you're done; there is no reason to recreate characters and experiment with combinations, because ultimately they all end up with the same necessities, which seems now to be -everything-. The only divergence being made is crafter vs non-crafter, and which people you play around. That hasn't worked well for pretty much any long-lived rpg in history.
So yeah. It's kind of a problem if out of that incredible amount of 'get almost everything' that we've built, the big deal is that there exists a single role in the game where the place you don't want to go, you're actually not that great in.
ETA: As far as actual feedback, and pertaining to the above, I'd say take any subguild that confers stealth and cut it down. No other skills other than the stealth skills. If you want to be a stalker with backstab, great, but you won't get city stealth with it. Then have two subguilds that are only sneak and hide, one of wilderness, one of city (I don't mind desert listen and city listen being more common). That way if you're choosing omni-stealth, you are actually making a tradeoff for it, rather than the purely additive nature of subclasses now. Make actual choices in character creation, and make them matter; they will dictate where you are weaker, where you are stronger, and your modus operandi for progressing and solving problems.
Quote from: betweenford on May 29, 2023, 07:07:02 PM
Your argument makes no sense in the context of city elves being able to learn desert skills Brokkr.
It sounds like elves are about to forget how to elf. Elves are known for being light footed and pick pockety, whether they be city or desert.
I agree that a desert elf wouldnt know how to use the lay out of a city to sneak around and visa versa.. but are their fingers going to suddenly work a different way that they cannot be a pickpocket type? Or stabbing people in the back is going to work different? Are city people going to develop humps on their back that will alter the perception of how backstab works?
And then on the other side of things, limiting city elves to literally be city elves and a single one will never be able to have aspirations to be something more than they are? A grebber, a hunter? It is not like there has been an overflow of city elves being hunters, and taking away the option to be anything hunter orientated seems unneeded and makes the race far less appealing when there are not a huge amount of city elves to begin with because they are already pigeon holed.
Really think things shouldn't be messed with if they are not broken, instead of squashing and limiting players from being able to do what they want with their pretty much mundane characters, why not use that energy to create something more for the world that will interest new and old players alike? Given the hell we, as a community recently went through, we should be adding things in not taking them away.
There are other arguments on why city elves should be able to pick up desert based subguilds. Mostly the fact that the entire PVE 'hunting' game lives outside of cities... so desert skills have dramatically more utility than city skills for that aspect of the game.
The other arguments is that Desert Elves have pretty substantial coded advantages, which warrants having the disadvantage of a more limited subguild pool to choose from. City elves do not.
Quote from: wizturbo on May 30, 2023, 03:26:25 AM
The other arguments is that Desert Elves have pretty substantial coded advantages, which warrants having the disadvantage of a more limited subguild pool to choose from. City elves do not.
Right. See, that's totally what I'm talking about. Just say it's for game balancing issues and that's why the distinction exists. There's nothing wrong with that. But let's not keep pretending like it's designed to reflect reality. It's not. There's nothing city-based about backstabbing. And there doesn't have to be. It's not meant to reflect reality, it's meant to give different groups their own set of unique advantages. It's ok to say that. It sure beats the mental gymnastics to try and say why it's for realistic purposes.
Backstab in the desert though? I can't see it. Maybe it's the way I'm envisioning backstab. I know it's really just a 'hit critical area' thing, but you still need to sneak up right next to someone in order to do it. We have one square per league (IG def) which means you are in a wide open space!
Perhaps a different skill like 'Ambush', where you would have to be sitting in wait for someone to come into that area and jump them. I can see that in the desert or the forests.
Change my mind. :)
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on May 30, 2023, 07:31:42 AM
Backstab in the desert though? I can't see it. Maybe it's the way I'm envisioning backstab. I know it's really just a 'hit critical area' thing, but you still need to sneak up right next to someone in order to do it. We have one square per league (IG def) which means you are in a wide open space!
Perhaps a different skill like 'Ambush', where you would have to be sitting in wait for someone to come into that area and jump them. I can see that in the desert or the forests.
Change my mind. :)
It just seems like you're stretching that argument soooo thin just to make a point, not because it reflects some greater realism about critical strikes. And why create an ambush skill that functions as a "wilderness backstab" when we already have the backstab skill itself?
But I'm not even talking backstab. I'm saying the whole city vs wilderness arrangement. Most delves will not have any city based stealth, most city elves will not have any wilderness based stealth. What's the big deal if a subclass or two allows that rare overlap? You can argue why a desert tribesman wouldn't have city related talents until you're blue in the face but the fact remains it's not impossible for someone to be trained in both. You wanna make it rarer, knock yourself out. You wanna keep it limited for game balance issues, be my guest. You wanna try and argue why it wouldn't be possible at all ever and all you're doing is lying to yourself.
So - question for staff.
How many delves were created in the last year or so (the timeframe is not that important) and how many of these actually had one of these subclasses that you want to ban?
Quote from: Nao on May 30, 2023, 08:49:35 AM
So - question for staff.
How many of the delves created in the last year or so (the timeframe is not that important) actually had one of these subclasses that you want to ban?
and how many survived past 10 days played lmao
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on May 30, 2023, 07:31:42 AM
Backstab in the desert though? I can't see it. Maybe it's the way I'm envisioning backstab. I know it's really just a 'hit critical area' thing, but you still need to sneak up right next to someone in order to do it. We have one square per league (IG def) which means you are in a wide open space!
Perhaps a different skill like 'Ambush', where you would have to be sitting in wait for someone to come into that area and jump them. I can see that in the desert or the forests.
Change my mind. :)
Same skill, different name, its just nomenclature at that point. If they called the skill "MonkeyPaw" and it did the same thing, it shouldn't matter.
Desert Elves can, and do, sneak up right next to you with their amazing stealth. Whether they are swimming in the sand, dressed properly, or just know the lay of the dunes to know how to run up on your ass, they can and do.
Your issue, it seems, is more with the fact that Desert Elves can sneak up next to you with stealth and not what they do once they're there.
Quote from: betweenford on May 30, 2023, 08:50:59 AM
Quote from: Nao on May 30, 2023, 08:49:35 AM
So - question for staff.
How many of the delves created in the last year or so (the timeframe is not that important) actually had one of these subclasses that you want to ban?
and how many survived past 10 days played lmao
And how many engaged in such wildly game breaking behavior that this is a priority for staff?
Quote from: Suhuy on May 30, 2023, 04:28:05 AM
Quote from: wizturbo on May 30, 2023, 03:26:25 AM
The other arguments is that Desert Elves have pretty substantial coded advantages, which warrants having the disadvantage of a more limited subguild pool to choose from. City elves do not.
Right. See, that's totally what I'm talking about. Just say it's for game balancing issues and that's why the distinction exists. There's nothing wrong with that. But let's not keep pretending like it's designed to reflect reality. It's not. There's nothing city-based about backstabbing. And there doesn't have to be. It's not meant to reflect reality, it's meant to give different groups their own set of unique advantages. It's ok to say that. It sure beats the mental gymnastics to try and say why it's for realistic purposes.
It only takes ONE person to engage in bad behavior for EVERYONE to have to suffer. It is a problem that affected me personally, so now everyone should be limited.
Quote from: Krath on May 30, 2023, 10:57:27 AM
Quote from: Suhuy on May 30, 2023, 04:28:05 AM
Quote from: wizturbo on May 30, 2023, 03:26:25 AM
The other arguments is that Desert Elves have pretty substantial coded advantages, which warrants having the disadvantage of a more limited subguild pool to choose from. City elves do not.
Right. See, that's totally what I'm talking about. Just say it's for game balancing issues and that's why the distinction exists. There's nothing wrong with that. But let's not keep pretending like it's designed to reflect reality. It's not. There's nothing city-based about backstabbing. And there doesn't have to be. It's not meant to reflect reality, it's meant to give different groups their own set of unique advantages. It's ok to say that. It sure beats the mental gymnastics to try and say why it's for realistic purposes.
It only takes ONE person to engage in bad behavior for EVERYONE to have to suffer. It is a problem that affected me personally, so now everyone should be limited.
It must have been all those celves with wilderness hunt who were ruining your gaming experience. I hate when that happens!
There's a lot of attitude going on in this thread.
Please be kind to your fellow members of the community.
Quote from: Nao on May 30, 2023, 08:49:35 AM
So - question for staff.
How many delves were created in the last year or so (the timeframe is not that important) and how many of these actually had one of these subclasses that you want to ban?
Of the 20 active desert elves (for this purpose active means logged on even once in 2023), only 2 have city-based subguilds. Which tells me that the delf community is doing a pretty good job of self-policing this. Which tells me that it
won't be missed and there's a lot of arguments trying to keep it, when it only happens about 10% of the time.
Quote from: Halaster on May 30, 2023, 12:27:24 PM
Quote from: Nao on May 30, 2023, 08:49:35 AM
So - question for staff.
How many delves were created in the last year or so (the timeframe is not that important) and how many of these actually had one of these subclasses that you want to ban?
Of the 20 active desert elves (for this purpose active means logged on even once in 2023), only 2 have city-based subguilds. Which tells me that the delf community is doing a pretty good job of self-policing this. Which tells me that it won't be missed and there's a lot of arguments trying to keep it, when it only happens about 10% of the time.
That it was seldom used doesn't mean it won't be missed, to me. It more likely means it was doing its purpose of being a rare occurrence. From that angle, it was functioning precisely as it should. And you know if it ain't broke....
Quote from: Kestria on May 30, 2023, 03:18:28 AM
And then on the other side of things, limiting city elves to literally be city elves and a single one will never be able to have aspirations to be something more than they are? A grebber, a hunter? It is not like there has been an overflow of city elves being hunters, and taking away the option to be anything hunter orientated seems unneeded and makes the race far less appealing when there are not a huge amount of city elves to begin with because they are already pigeon holed.
Quote from: Halaster on May 27, 2023, 11:44:30 AM
Here are the existing restrictions to subguild/guild based on race, in black. Additional restrictions that will go in with the new subguilds are in blue.
---------------------------------
City Elf
- cannot be raider, scout, stalker, adventurer, dune trader
Not sure what you are referring to. Nothing in blue for city elves. Guild restrictions are already in place for all elves, have been for a long time. In looking at the subguild stuff, we realized that while guilds are restricted, subguilds are not. So we holistically relooked at them, for all the normally placed races (it strikes me right now that gith should have the same restrictions as desert elves).
The issue, mainly, is that just-about nobody asked for this, and that doing this will annoy a good deal of people while pleasing very few of them. The game is there for peoples' enjoyment, and sacrificing peoples' enjoyment at the altar of the game is a move to be made with appropriate caution.
In addition to what Patuk said, it feels like there are other, more important things, that should be worked on, rather than items like this that no one asked for. If I am incorrect, others please correct me.
Quote from: Halaster on May 30, 2023, 12:27:24 PM
Of the 20 active desert elves (for this purpose active means logged on even once in 2023), only 2 have city-based subguilds. Which tells me that the delf community is doing a pretty good job of self-policing this. Which tells me that it won't be missed and there's a lot of arguments trying to keep it, when it only happens about 10% of the time.
... bro.
no, it tells you that most desert-elf players are responsible enough not to go buck wild with things that are thematically rare. that doesn't mean it should not exist. just because people don't play the same concept every time doesn't mean they don't want viable concepts to be removed.
this statement is even more wild when i take a step back because it sounds like there was no problem at all in the first place and players were doing a great job at keeping rare the occasional d-elf that would have city stealth unless it made a lot of less for the pc.
so to reward players who are staying thematic and keeping to lore on their own, this shit? to get players back in cities, the idea is to remove city options from wilderness PCs that want to spend more time in cities? in a world where there are daily conversations about 'are there too may magickers,' the idea is to remove mundane options from PCs?
maybe look at it like:
Quote from: Patuk on May 30, 2023, 02:23:32 PM
The issue, mainly, is that just-about nobody asked for this, and that doing this will annoy a good deal of people while pleasing very few of them. The game is there for peoples' enjoyment, and sacrificing peoples' enjoyment at the altar of the game is a move to be made with appropriate caution.
If it is not broken.. do not fix it. Fix things that need fixing, or build new things.
Brokrr, this is not meant to be cheeky or dickish or anything, but it feels like instead of focusing on making things more playable and coming up with more stories, we seem to focus on ways to change the game or limit options. For instance, Subguild and Extended subguild changes...Fucking fantastic...THis, not soo much.
Quote from: LindseyBalboa on May 30, 2023, 02:46:05 PM
Quote from: Halaster on May 30, 2023, 12:27:24 PM
Of the 20 active desert elves (for this purpose active means logged on even once in 2023), only 2 have city-based subguilds. Which tells me that the delf community is doing a pretty good job of self-policing this. Which tells me that it won't be missed and there's a lot of arguments trying to keep it, when it only happens about 10% of the time.
... bro.
no, it tells you that most desert-elf players are responsible enough not to go buck wild with things that are thematically rare. that doesn't mean it should not exist. just because people don't play the same concept every time doesn't mean they don't want viable concepts to be removed.
this statement is even more wild when i take a step back because it sounds like there was no problem at all in the first place and players were doing a great job at keeping rare the occasional d-elf that would have city stealth unless it made a lot of less for the pc.
so to reward players who are staying thematic and keeping to lore on their own, this shit? to get players back in cities, the idea is to remove city options from wilderness PCs that want to spend more time in cities? in a world where there are daily conversations about 'are there too may magickers,' the idea is to remove mundane options from PCs?
maybe look at it like:
Quote from: Patuk on May 30, 2023, 02:23:32 PM
The issue, mainly, is that just-about nobody asked for this, and that doing this will annoy a good deal of people while pleasing very few of them. The game is there for peoples' enjoyment, and sacrificing peoples' enjoyment at the altar of the game is a move to be made with appropriate caution.
Staff keep trying to reinvent the wheel to get over a bumpy road instead of fixing the potholes.
We're considering this because we feel it's lore and game appropriate. Some of you keep saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it". We think it's broken. We think desert elves should not have city stealth abilities, and that it should have been there long ago. We feel we are correcting an error. And honestly, that's it, that's the reason. There isn't really much else to it. That's the vision we have for desert elves, and we are working to get the reality more in line with it.
Hal,
While I may not agree with it (the changes), that is the kind of transparency, we as the playerbase, are looking for. Thank you.
Quote from: Halaster on May 30, 2023, 05:32:25 PM
We're considering this because we feel it's lore and game appropriate. Some of you keep saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it". We think it's broken. We think desert elves should not have city stealth abilities, and that it should have been there long ago. We feel we are correcting an error. And honestly, that's it, that's the reason. There isn't really much else to it. That's the vision we have for desert elves, and we are working to get the reality more in line with it.
Give us three spec apps per year, Hal Mussolini!!
Quote from: Halaster on May 30, 2023, 05:32:25 PM
We're considering this because we feel it's lore and game appropriate. Some of you keep saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it". We think it's broken. We think desert elves should not have city stealth abilities, and that it should have been there long ago. We feel we are correcting an error. And honestly, that's it, that's the reason. There isn't really much else to it. That's the vision we have for desert elves, and we are working to get the reality more in line with it.
That makes sense on some level. Are you going to be rewriting the documentation of ~half the tribes that talk about irregular city presence?
I agree with the staff on this one. Its literally in their name " city elves" and "desert elves". While they are the same species, they have clearly adapted to their environments over centuries.
The other changes look good too and are in line with documentation in lore.
If you want something different, spec app.
Quote from: Patuk on May 30, 2023, 06:57:19 PM
Quote from: Halaster on May 30, 2023, 05:32:25 PM
We're considering this because we feel it's lore and game appropriate. Some of you keep saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it". We think it's broken. We think desert elves should not have city stealth abilities, and that it should have been there long ago. We feel we are correcting an error. And honestly, that's it, that's the reason. There isn't really much else to it. That's the vision we have for desert elves, and we are working to get the reality more in line with it.
That makes sense on some level. Are you going to be rewriting the documentation of ~half the tribes that talk about irregular city presence?
I received a request on this from someone (that lists nearly every tribe as having a role in the documenation) and so far as I have gone through, it seems to be a combination of different interpretations of what was said (e.g. one role called them a "desert assassin" but the context around it seems to be in a generic sense of assassin as someone that does targeted kills, not using trope assassin skills and no where mentioned that it is in cities) and likely seeing folks do stuff with their characters and thinking that is part of the documentation, rather than contra-documentation. And some I can't seem to find where they have the idea that the documentation says something. So, work in progress.
Quote from: Riev on May 30, 2023, 08:59:12 AM
Quote from: JohnMichaelHenry on May 30, 2023, 07:31:42 AM
Backstab in the desert though? I can't see it. Maybe it's the way I'm envisioning backstab. I know it's really just a 'hit critical area' thing, but you still need to sneak up right next to someone in order to do it. We have one square per league (IG def) which means you are in a wide open space!
Perhaps a different skill like 'Ambush', where you would have to be sitting in wait for someone to come into that area and jump them. I can see that in the desert or the forests.
Change my mind. :)
Same skill, different name, its just nomenclature at that point. If they called the skill "MonkeyPaw" and it did the same thing, it shouldn't matter.
Desert Elves can, and do, sneak up right next to you with their amazing stealth. Whether they are swimming in the sand, dressed properly, or just know the lay of the dunes to know how to run up on your ass, they can and do.
Your issue, it seems, is more with the fact that Desert Elves can sneak up next to you with stealth and not what they do once they're there.
The difference would be, sneaking up to someone vs. them walking into a place where you are waiting. But really, I don't have a kank in this race. I suck at stealthy pc's.
Quote from: Halaster on May 30, 2023, 05:32:25 PM
We're considering this because we feel it's lore and game appropriate. Some of you keep saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it". We think it's broken. We think desert elves should not have city stealth abilities, and that it should have been there long ago. We feel we are correcting an error. And honestly, that's it, that's the reason. There isn't really much else to it. That's the vision we have for desert elves, and we are working to get the reality more in line with it.
Thank you for shedding some light on Staff's reasoning. Your reasoning and vision is bad, but now we can better understand how it's bad.
What are some actual examples of the current system appearing broken that you feel warrant this change? What is the actual problem?
It's probably just coincidental, but I can't help but feel there's been a downwards trend of player numbers the more Staff (principally Halaster and Brokkr) try to force a separation between City and Wilderness roles. Scan getting split between City and Wilderness; Skinning getting hugely curtailed in favor of "player interaciton" (while we were shedding players year over year); and now this notion that City Elves and Desert Elves need to be completely separate in terms of playability.
All of these changes just make life more onerous for players who want to move in and out of the cities and interact with different populations. It encourages the player population to fragment and compartmentalize, which makes the game feel even less populated than it is. That in turn drives disengagement, which lessens the players, and the cycle begins to repeat itself.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 12:16:34 AM
*snip*
See, I had the opposite impression. For me, the game started losing players when you'd log in and everyone was off doing whatever they wanted. No one had to wait for you for anything, they could just...do it themselves. Wanted to go over there? No vulnerability there, I got that shit covered. I just disappear from the player pool while I get done what I want done.
Everyone said they hated waiting around for people. People started adjusting and going to new roles and making sure their character creation was based on 0 downtime. Turned out that downtime where was most of the things actually happened. Waiting in a bar for people? That's when your enemies found you. Needed something done over there? You started asking randos who they knew who could get that done. All of the 'get things done'/action oriented players disappeared from the social pool, leaving a bunch of people who wanted to get things done but had no one to cooperate with. Then apartments got super common...and those who were still 'waiting for other people' ended up waiting endlessly instead of finding fruition, so they either transitioned so that they, too, could play without depending on other people, or left.
The downward trend of players was there, with brief resurgences based on actual things being around for 'shit to do' for some consistent amount of time, but I think it's reading in reverse; the less dependent on people you are, the less downtime you have, and the less available you are, and the less interested in seeking people for meaningful things you are.
Note that this is not meant as a correction to your post; I just find it interesting how far spread those two perceptions can be on describing the same scenario. Enlarging the sphere of influence/playability made people less available, where smaller, more defined spheres of comfort/influence made you have to seek people out to get into other spheres.
It's a fair point, and just makes it more likely I'm seeing a coincidence.
Still... might be that the numbers shed are those of us who prefer the mundane sphere. Magickers are definitely the most self-sufficient types out there, and as they've been made more and more prominent codedly there's less and less reasons to bother playing mundanes. These proposed changes aren't doing anything to help Desert Elves in that regard.
Hell, if this is really the path we want to go on, I propose splitting humans between Urbans Settled and Tribals and start restricting what class you get based on where they begin too.
Dwarves can keep everything because they're meta.
eta: a better term
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 12:16:34 AM
Thank you for shedding some light on Staff's reasoning. Your reasoning and vision is bad, but now we can better understand how it's bad.
I disagree with you on this. I think the reasoning is sound. I can see why there'd be restrictions on a race that's meant to be top dog in the desert and has all kinds of coded bonuses as a result having some trade offs inside the city unless you special app for it. I also think the reasoning that Desert Elves being a popular race that new players who just got 1 karma play often play explains why they want to put these guard rails in place.
Separately, and far more importantly, I really wish you'd make an effort to share your opinions in a kinder manner. After I read the "reasoning and vision is bad" part of your comment I was annoyed and became reluctant to read further because you were being rude to someone who was being open and transparent about their thinking. I like transparency. I like it when Halaster and Brokkr discuss things with the players instead of do it all behind closed doors... Isn't this what you've been asking for? Try and encourage it? You started the post the right way, but then you had to take away your 'Thank you' immediately by saying something nasty?
I'm only responding in the same manner I've received from them. At least I'm not lying (which is what saying "Your opinion is wrong" would be, since that's my own subjective opinion).
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 12:16:34 AM
*snip*
I'm not going to edit the original because I think editing is ultimately harmful for discourse, but I will rephrase it.
"Thank you for sharing your opinion. I disagree with and find your opinion unconvincing, and would like to see more reasoning than what you've given. What are some actual examples of the current system appearing broken that you feel warrant this change? What is the actual problem?"
Thanks BadSkeelz. That was cool of you.
Also I totally agree if people have been nasty to you, it makes you want to do the same in return. Trying to stop the cycle is all.
Quote from: Brokkr on May 30, 2023, 07:55:25 PM
Quote from: Patuk on May 30, 2023, 06:57:19 PM
Quote from: Halaster on May 30, 2023, 05:32:25 PM
We're considering this because we feel it's lore and game appropriate. Some of you keep saying "If it ain't broke don't fix it". We think it's broken. We think desert elves should not have city stealth abilities, and that it should have been there long ago. We feel we are correcting an error. And honestly, that's it, that's the reason. There isn't really much else to it. That's the vision we have for desert elves, and we are working to get the reality more in line with it.
That makes sense on some level. Are you going to be rewriting the documentation of ~half the tribes that talk about irregular city presence?
I received a request on this from someone (that lists nearly every tribe as having a role in the documenation) and so far as I have gone through, it seems to be a combination of different interpretations of what was said (e.g. one role called them a "desert assassin" but the context around it seems to be in a generic sense of assassin as someone that does targeted kills, not using trope assassin skills and no where mentioned that it is in cities) and likely seeing folks do stuff with their characters and thinking that is part of the documentation, rather than contra-documentation. And some I can't seem to find where they have the idea that the documentation says something. So, work in progress.
Right. I can see that, I suppose
When I go to read someone's post and they start with "your idea is bad" or "your vision is bad", know what I do? I don't read the rest. I have no interest in even hearing the rest of their opinion because they're just going to be an asshole. Don't need 'em, don't want 'em.
If they say "I disagree with that and here's why", and show an ounce of respect, then I will.
Quote from: Halaster on May 31, 2023, 12:18:13 PM
When I go to read someone's post and they start with "your idea is bad" or "your vision is bad", know what I do? I don't read the rest. I have no interest in even hearing the rest of their opinion because they're just going to be an asshole. Don't need 'em, don't want 'em.
If they say "I disagree with that and here's why", and show an ounce of respect, then I will.
Please post this in staff announcements so that players can reference how to properly address concerns with staff. You've got ~180 people from different backgrounds and with different communication styles. If you know a style works for you, please let us know rather than just disregard player opinion based on their communication style.
Quote from: Riev on May 31, 2023, 12:48:13 PM
Quote from: Halaster on May 31, 2023, 12:18:13 PM
When I go to read someone's post and they start with "your idea is bad" or "your vision is bad", know what I do? I don't read the rest. I have no interest in even hearing the rest of their opinion because they're just going to be an asshole. Don't need 'em, don't want 'em.
If they say "I disagree with that and here's why", and show an ounce of respect, then I will.
Please post this in staff announcements so that players can reference how to properly address concerns with staff. You've got ~180 people from different backgrounds and with different communication styles. If you know a style works for you, please let us know rather than just disregard player opinion based on their communication style.
As much as I dislike agreeing with Brokkr, I dislike agreeing with Riev more..But I agree with Riev
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 02:54:26 AM
What is the actual problem?
The code doesn't always match up well with the game lore, for various reasons. As the game progresses through time and folks have the time, ability and inclination, bits and pieces of code are implemented to reflect the lore. I don't think of this as a problem, just a natural evolution of trying to make things a bit tighter and have a bit more consistency. Although I guess it could be argued that the lack of consistency is the problem (i.e. why are guilds restricted by race in but subguilds are not? That is not consistent).
Quote from: Brokkr on May 31, 2023, 12:54:27 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 02:54:26 AM
What is the actual problem?
The code doesn't always match up well with the game lore, for various reasons. As the game progresses through time and folks have the time, ability and inclination, bits and pieces of code are implemented to reflect the lore. I don't think of this as a problem, just a natural evolution of trying to make things a bit tighter and have a bit more consistency. Although I guess it could be argued that the lack of consistency is the problem (i.e. why are guilds restricted by race in but subguilds are not? That is not consistent).
Correct me if I'm misinterpreting:
"Desert elves were always restricted from picking Assassin, and City Elves were always restricted from picking Ranger, for {reasons}. As we shifted away from Guilds and started making more subclasses with options, we inadvertently allowed Delves and Celves access to the skills we never meant for them to have, at skill caps we didn't want them to achieve. This isn't about lore, this is how it was meant to be, and we unfortunately have allowed this to progress over time. We are correcting that oversight."
Quote from: Krath on May 31, 2023, 12:51:16 PM
As much as I dislike agreeing with Brokkr, I dislike agreeing with Riev more..But I agree with Riev
u wanna fite? Give me 3 months and access to .... uh. Well. Your PC for training purposes. THEN THE PERAINE COMES.
(Where'd this smiley come from)
Quote from: Brokkr link=to pic=59448.msg1093105#msg1093105 date=1685552067
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 02:54:26 AM
What is the actual problem?
The code doesn't always match up well with the game lore, for various reasons. As the game progresses through time and folks have the time, ability and inclination, bits and pieces of code are implemented to reflect the lore. I don't think of this as a problem, just a natural evolution of trying to make things a bit tighter and have a bit more consistency. Although I guess it could be argued that the lack of consistency is the problem (i.e. why are guilds restricted by race in but subguilds are not? That is not consistent).
Okay, then what is the inconsistency being addressed by these changes?
Are the lines between City and Desert elves too blurred? Why do those lines exist for elves but not any other race? Are human tribes going to face similar restrictions on their skills? Should they?
Quote from: Riev on May 31, 2023, 12:48:13 PM
Quote from: Halaster on May 31, 2023, 12:18:13 PM
When I go to read someone's post and they start with "your idea is bad" or "your vision is bad", know what I do? I don't read the rest. I have no interest in even hearing the rest of their opinion because they're just going to be an asshole. Don't need 'em, don't want 'em.
If they say "I disagree with that and here's why", and show an ounce of respect, then I will.
Please post this in staff announcements so that players can reference how to properly address concerns with staff. You've got ~180 people from different backgrounds and with different communication styles. If you know a style works for you, please let us know rather than just disregard player opinion based on their communication style.
https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59147.0.html
1.
Show respect and kindness above all. This includes offensive actions and comments directed at someone's gender, sexual orientation, appearance, race, religion, language, etc.
We respect healthy debate, but will not tolerate argumentative discourse. Discuss the idea, not each other.
5. Do not bash other MUDs, communities or
other users.
--------------
That's what I'm basing it off, so it's already announced. "Your idea is dumb" or "your vision is bad" etc. are not a measure of healthy debate. "I don't like that idea and here's why", or "I don't agree with that and here's why" are measures of healthy debate.
If you want someone to listen to you, don't attack them. Phrases like the above are often attacks against a person, and when a person feels attacked they're going to naturally become defensive. The way to convince someone of your argument is to show respect and understanding, while maintaining or presenting your ideas or disagreements. When the disagreement is rephrased to ""Thank you for sharing your opinion. I disagree with and find your opinion unconvincing, and would like to see more reasoning than what you've given. What are some actual examples of the current system appearing broken that you feel warrant this change? What is the actual problem?"" then it becomes a healthy debate and people are more inclined to engage with the person.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 01:00:40 PM
(Where'd this smiley come from)Quote from: Brokkr link=to pic=59448.msg1093105#msg1093105 date=1685552067
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 02:54:26 AM
What is the actual problem?
The code doesn't always match up well with the game lore, for various reasons. As the game progresses through time and folks have the time, ability and inclination, bits and pieces of code are implemented to reflect the lore. I don't think of this as a problem, just a natural evolution of trying to make things a bit tighter and have a bit more consistency. Although I guess it could be argued that the lack of consistency is the problem (i.e. why are guilds restricted by race in but subguilds are not? That is not consistent).
Okay, then what is the inconsistency being addressed by these changes?
Are the lines between City and Desert elves too blurred? Why do those lines exist for elves but not any other race? Are human tribes going to face similar restrictions on their skills? Should they?
Elves were split into two races back in the 90's sometime, probably mid/late? The point was to differentiate between them to point out their differences. Their culture and upbringing made them very different people despite being the same race. It was some years later that city and wilderness skills (stealth, hunt, etc) were separated out with the idea that they're different skills. Similar in function and outcome, but requiring different abilities based on the environments. The point is that we are were we are today because of an evolution of the game over a long time.
The original two concepts (splitting elves up and splitting stealth skills up) was to highlight the differences. It is our opinion that desert elves never should have had those city-based skills as a standard issue thing. We could choose to ignore it and take the stance of "well, it's too late now, the cat's out of the bag", or we could choose to try to correct what we see is the error. I'm not a fan of just letting things go that don't fit our theme and our vision. I would rather correct the problem if I'm aware of it, even if it is many years later, than not at all.
So that is the inconsistency being addressed by this proposal. That desert elves should not have city-based skills. Riev's statement asking for clarification generally sums it up appropriately:
"Desert elves were always restricted from picking Assassin, and City Elves were always restricted from picking Ranger, for {reasons}. As we shifted away from Guilds and started making more subclasses with options, we inadvertently allowed Delves and Celves access to the skills we never meant for them to have, at skill caps we didn't want them to achieve. This isn't about lore, this is how it was meant to be, and we unfortunately have allowed this to progress over time. We are correcting that oversight."
All this said, I'm kind of thinking now that we won't roll this out (if we ever do, I keep using the phrase proposal intentionally) with the subguild stuff, since it's contentious and we want to make sure we do it right.
EDIT: was reminded scan isn't divided into city/wilderness, so removed it as an example
I wanted to add after a convo with Brokkr and Usiku, that we understand our current stealth system and our current city/wilderness system and our current celf/delf system aren't necessarily ideal. Overhauling some or all of them are much, much larger projects. We'd like to do that sometime, but tweaking the existing systems to better match our intentions is a quicker, easier fix.
I'd love to see elf as one race, but subguilds determine abilities like desert run and stuff.
I'd love to see city/wilderness stealth be more of a gradient than a one or the other.
I'd love to see our entire stealth system overhauled somehow.
I'd love to see custom subguilds.
Until we can implement those larger features, we gotta make do with what we got!
Off topic but did Scan get changed again? Per its documentation it *is* divided between City and wilderness. Though I recall that happening at maybe a later date than others.
QuoteNote that as with skill hide and skill sneak, there are city and wilderness versions of this skill, and it will obviously operate better in the appropriate environment.
I remember when Slipknife came out and every desert elf player I knew was like "OMG I CAN BACKSTAB IN THE WILDERNESS NOW?"
Is it about having the skills -at all-. or is it the level to which they get them?
Could a desert elf still critically strike, or hide in the city but at a disadvantage? Would it even be worth having city_hide at high Jman to show a lack of understanding of urban stealth?
Also as a note, yes there are a ton of Desert Elf tribes but I am imagining a Sun Runner trying to blend in with traffic on Caravan Way in Allanak.
Quote from: Brokkr on May 31, 2023, 12:54:27 PM
Quote from: BadSkeelz on May 31, 2023, 02:54:26 AM
What is the actual problem?
The code doesn't always match up well with the game lore, for various reasons. As the game progresses through time and folks have the time, ability and inclination, bits and pieces of code are implemented to reflect the lore. I don't think of this as a problem, just a natural evolution of trying to make things a bit tighter and have a bit more consistency. Although I guess it could be argued that the lack of consistency is the problem (i.e. why are guilds restricted by race in but subguilds are not? That is not consistent).
Guilds have always been the 'main thing', with subguilds more of a side gig, with lower skillcaps. They're not what you're best at. That's the reasoning.
Quote from: Halaster on May 31, 2023, 12:18:13 PM
When I go to read someone's post and they start with "your idea is bad" or "your vision is bad", know what I do? I don't read the rest. I have no interest in even hearing the rest of their opinion because they're just going to be an asshole. Don't need 'em, don't want 'em.
If they say "I disagree with that and here's why", and show an ounce of respect, then I will.
My last response was incredibly conversational and probably not the best for text, so I'm actually going to use this as an opportunity for improvement in communication.
Quote from: Halaster on May 30, 2023, 12:27:24 PM
Of the 20 active desert elves (for this purpose active means logged on even once in 2023), only 2 have city-based subguilds. Which tells me that the delf community is doing a pretty good job of self-policing this. Which tells me that it won't be missed and there's a lot of arguments trying to keep it, when it only happens about 10% of the time.
I'd like to counter that as I believe it's looking at the data the wrong way, from a point of view that feels more "old Armageddon" than one in which people are honestly all trying to work together to tell stories.
Here's why I think that: as stated, players of d-elves seem to be doing a good job self-regulating what is supposed to be thematically rare. It takes focus to learn to sneak around in the city, time, effort, as everyone in the thread agrees.
Same data, but a different conclusion. Instead of 'they won't be missed,' I think this is actually a prime example of 1+ karma players following documentation.
To look at it another way, if the playerbase gradually stops playing as many magickers as they get all the concepts they wanted to play out of their systems, and magickers gradually become about 10% of the active pool of characters on-grid. Would the argument be made that 'they won't be missed' when removing magickers?
In conclusion, although the GDB is a small snapshot of a vocal part of the playerbase, I believe the hugely negative response overall in this thread and on Discord generally gives you the answer to 'will they be missed.' Yes. Should they ever have to be missed? No.
As for the other viewpoint,
Brokkr, that 'according to lore desert elves cannot sneak while inside a city because they'd never be able to learn:'
I understand that 'players doing things' does not make a thing lore in-game, however, decades of real life time spent by players should probably be taken into account a bit more than it is being taken into account. Players being responsible and self-regulating a thematically rare occurrence should be trusted to continue to be judicious in their judgment. If a player decides to pick a city stealth subguild as a d-elf they are committing to a background that has a lot of city in it, they're committing to city play, they're committing to a mundane, they're committing to interactivity between wild and city. They're actively making decisions to bring roleplay to isolated groups. These are the d-elves that go into the rinth. These are the d-elves that might do business with the Golden Hand.
Mechanically, the stealth system is binary and it is not mechanically able to show 'desert elves might be not as good in cities as city elves, when it comes to stealth' but that would not realistically mean desert elves are all bad at sneaking inside 100%.
As the system is 'all or nothing,' there's absolutely no way that lore-wise, desert elves are incapable of learning to sneak inside cities. They spend time there. A desert elf spending 1/3 of a year with a city elf would 100% learn to sneak effectively in the cities as that is their MAIN defense. Real life military training boot camps for stealth take 2-3 months. A desert elf that spends a few weeks out of a year would eventually learn to blend in by necessity. The argument that 'they hate being inside cities' could easily be applied to 'they learned quickly to hide from people staring at them all the time.'
Half-giants, as a race, should all get city listen so they can listen in when the bar is full or they're too big for a table.
Dune Traders should also get city listen, they travel between the cities/outposts. They would be the news reporters/gossip spreaders/information mongers of the Known.
Last thought on this subject.
City hide is blending into the city. Staff says desert elves could never learn to blend in with other people in the city, and it would need ~15 years of growing up in the city to be able to do it. The argument is, this is lore.
I'd like to bring up some other lore: racism.
Racism against elves is so rampant I have been arrested by a templar on more than one occasion and every time, I've either been blamed for ANOTHER elf's crimes, been able to blame another elf, or escaped and another elf was punished. Because all elves look the same.
It literally takes switching cloaks and walking to become a city-elf. Master hide. Nobody would look twice.
emote throws on a dark, hooded cloak and slinks along behind a group of city elves in dark, hooded cloaks.
Literally unseeable.
Desert hide doesn't even make any sense. What are you hiding behind? Are you under the sand?
I lied, maybe this is my last thought.
The Desert Elf Outpost is a city, set city, and requires city-stealth to sneak around in.
Desert elves spend a lot of time in the Desert Elf Outpost.
Many of them have members that live inside the Desert Elf Outpost.
How do none of these desert elves learn to be stealthy?
Do none of them go back and share this knowledge?
This just doesn't make any sense, lore-wise, for it to be black and white. They're not evolutionarily unable to sneak in cities. It doesn't take 10 years to learn to blend into a crowd. It doesn't even take 3 months.
Quote from: Classclown on May 31, 2023, 03:26:53 PM
Desert hide doesn't even make any sense. What are you hiding behind? Are you under the sand?
The desert isn't just flat sand, it's ripples from wind and sandstorms that have settled, maybe they are hiding behind a dune, watching you.
(https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/OPIWPJSIGII6VENLZZBZVJOHYE.jpg)
Quote from: Classclown on May 31, 2023, 03:11:54 PM
Half-giants, as a race, should all get city listen so they can listen in when the bar is full or they're too big for a table.
Dune Traders should also get city listen, they travel between the cities/outposts. They would be the news reporters/gossip spreaders/information mongers of the Known.
Yes, please, and city listen would make more sense for a dune trader than wild listen for that reason, in addition, this would ENCOURAGE PEOPLE to sit at bars or tables to talk and practice it. :D
I also love the half-giant idea and makes great sense from playability alone.
As it is now, I like it.
Quote from: Pariah on May 31, 2023, 03:51:56 PM
Quote from: Classclown on May 31, 2023, 03:26:53 PM
Desert hide doesn't even make any sense. What are you hiding behind? Are you under the sand?
The desert isn't just flat sand, it's ripples from wind and sandstorms that have settled, maybe they are hiding behind a dune, watching you.
(https://arc-anglerfish-washpost-prod-washpost.s3.amazonaws.com/public/OPIWPJSIGII6VENLZZBZVJOHYE.jpg)
Okay, but I would still see them as soon as they left the dune to backstab me. It'd be like the Geico commercial with the surveillance guy in the trash can.
Yes, in the 5000 odd years of recorded human history, there has never been a record of a successful ambush launched in the desert. /s
People can hide behind dunes, behind rocks, under the sand, in a small gully. You're unlikely to have panoramic vision a hundred yards out, and will have moments of distraction or otherwise loss of situational awareness that ambushers can exploit. Hiding and sneaking in the Desert makes a lot more sense than people stealthing out of sight in a brightly lit hallway in front of witnesses, which is peak City stealth.
My humble opinion on topic, or at least I hope...is...make subguilds more broad and versatile, race included. The more those you have, those combinations done to make fun for a player. The hard separation between city and wilderness is fine, but exceptions are fun too. Also, I think if you limit the guild/sub options by race, or any others, just makes for more gick subs out there, and not helping promote mundanes as many speak about.
To add, I think folks should be able to choose a sub that might be contrary to normal situation/life. Its a story. And from the numbers presented, its not a problem. Bad change imho.
IIRC elf documentation is also kinda contradictory on how elves settle into this or that location, and simplifies it to agoraphobia and claustrophobia when its moreso a generalized fear of the unfamiliar and unknown. Tribes flit wherever their stomping grounds are regardless of environment within those grounds. Tribes settle all the time from the desert into the city and flee from the cities to the (immediate) wastes whenever things get too hot for the tribes. There are city elf tribes with documentation on them having specialized hunter roles. Limiting the reverse is weird.
Quote from: LindseyBalboa on May 31, 2023, 03:43:27 PM
I lied, maybe this is my last thought.
The Desert Elf Outpost is a city, set city, and requires city-stealth to sneak around in.
Desert elves spend a lot of time in the Desert Elf Outpost.
Many of them have members that live inside the Desert Elf Outpost.
How do none of these desert elves learn to be stealthy?
Do none of them go back and share this knowledge?
This just doesn't make any sense, lore-wise, for it to be black and white. They're not evolutionarily unable to sneak in cities. It doesn't take 10 years to learn to blend into a crowd. It doesn't even take 3 months.
Awesome example!! And there's hundreds more you could come up with like this.
This is why the only real explanation to the changes made is one that is OOC in nature, not IC. It's done for game balancing purposes, so each class, subclass and race has their own set of advantages and disadvantages.
And it's totally ok to say that! The issue is when you try and come up with some absurd IC explanation, one that easily falls apart after close examination of a few help files, clan docs, or even the mere existence of the Blackwing Outpost.
I'd be curious for someone to prove it's heavily used. Last time I went there the board was like six months out of date.
Also it's old as dirt and probably an oversight that it's considered city for sneak/hide purposes. It would make more sense since it's filled with elves to be wilderness anyways.
Quote from: Pariah on June 02, 2023, 01:55:35 AM
I'd be curious for someone to prove it's heavily used. Last time I went there the board was like six months out of date.
It doesn't matter if it's heavily used or not. It exists and thematically has an inconsistency if you're going to take wilderness vs city stealth literally. There's a good chance most delf camps have some rooms which require city stealth. That's where LindseyBalboa's point comes in. They can hide in a sand dune but after years of growing up in that camp NO ONE can figure out how to properly conceal themselves on that rocky path near the tents or inside the vast tribal pavilion etc? It just doesn't make sense. So rather than trying to explain it away with an IC logic that demonstrably does not exist, say it's for game balance and call it a day.
Its used about every other day. Desert elves are furtive and dont like sharing secrets with every other tribe that walks into the outpost unless its like major news everyone would already know about anyways. And then on top of that they each have individual boards