Armageddon General Discussion Board

Ever since Arm's population started decreasing noticeably, there has always been a sense of denial about it. People tended to blame the season, or various RL current events, or whatever. Of course there have always been hills and valleys, so I can understand why people didn't want to accept that numbers were on the decline and not getting any better. But I think it's clear by now that the small playerbase we have right now is, at least for the time being, an inescapable reality.

Obviously, the issues people have with staff right now are a big part of the unusually low numbers, but at the same time, it becomes a vicious cycle at this point. It's hard to be able to honestly encourage returning players or newbies to play the game when it tends to be such a lonely experience. People don't want to have to be the change; they just want to hop in and have a good time. But everything feels dead.

It used to be that you could walk into the Gaj and there'd be half a dozen people there, but now you're lucky if you find one or two all RL day. And people just log off when they see there's no one in the regular meeting spots, because they don't feel like idling away the day, getting hungrier and thirstier, in hopes that maybe one random person will be interested in a scene. Now we have to face the fact that it isn't like that anymore, and we aren't just a temporarily inconvenienced 70+ player game. We're an actual low-population community and we need to face that and make changes based on that.

But we don't have to just wait for the players to come back -- because they won't; not on their own, not when the experience is this...well, let's just be honest. When the experience is this dull and isolating. There are tools that could be implemented that would actually make the game feel alive again, even with the tiny playerbase we can currently count on. Here are some things that could be implemented, though I'm sure there are many more:

- Being able to manually flag your location as visible to attract RP
- Certain hot spots broadcasting their population
- Offline psi

Some or all of these can be abused, yes, but I'm not worried about that right now. I honestly am not. I'm far, far more worried that this game is going to slowly die. The only people left will be the ones who want to play it as a single-player Elder Scrolls-type experience, and then they'll eventually leave too.

In my opinion, this needs to be among the TOP PRIORITIES. Not that I'm anyone with authority or clout, but as a simple player, I would beseech staff to pay close attention to this issue, because this problem is only going to get worse if we don't address it, and then there will be no fixing it. Because at that point it will be too late, as no amount of these changes will make a game with a peak count of 5 feel anything but empty. We are still built like a 70+ peak game and we are just not anymore. Maybe one day we could be. Maybe not. But it's never going to happen when I can't even honestly promise anyone that playing here will be fun and rewarding and that they'll get RP.

If you have more suggestions on how we could make the low player count experience better, please post them here. And staff, I would urge you to put this on your radar ASAP. This game is very important to me and I do want to see it thrive again. I do think there is a way forward.

Your hunger and thirst already doesn't go down when idle for a long time --  You can idle in the tavern and don't worry :)

The game DOES need a "keep alive" option to silently send new lines now and then though, as sometimes it can silently disconnect sometimes

(even on clients with KeepAlive, this is apparently a thing because of changes in internet hardware since the mud was made and a known issue with telnet)


Having a where option would probably mean more people would never walk out estate/wagon/clan HQ since people would check that instead of going to look around (and this also prejudices against sneaky characters waiting for RP which a lot of the time is not killing and just intrigue!)

Totally agree.

The game has lower pop, and instead of everyone moping about it and feeling it harsh, some quick & easy OOC rp-finding mechanics could be added in and I guarantee the game would be feeling more active and accessible then it was with 50~ player pops.

If the staff want inspiration for a solid system from a sister MUD that's been up as long, if not longer then Arm, look to HL. They have been very low pop for over 20 years, and so they adapted to it and they still had a fun MUD even with 5-10 players on.

What they have is 2 simple mechanics. They have MUDmail that can be used in an OOC or IC fashion, and they have a who list of characters that you can opt in or out on with 'set available'. If you're shown on the who list and you're sitting somewhere you want to RP in, you type 'set location'. What this does is add the room name after your character's sdesc in the who-list.

For example:
>who
---
There is 27 players online.

Available Characters:
the tall, average man (Gladiator & Gaj Tavern)
the short elf
the tressy aide (Arboretum)
the stone-like dwarf
the kadian merchant (Gladiator & Gaj Tavern)
---

It's unbelievably simple and very efficient. I had trouble finding RP even when the game had 50~ players on, and this type of change would make the game much more active then those times.

And let's be frank. The downsides are miniscule, and not worth killing the game over holding staunchly to the archaic idea of absolutely no RP aids.

EDIT: Wanted to make clear this was a response to tiny rainbow:

As for the hunger and thirst, you're right -- but what I call idling isn't always being wholly in another window. Sometimes I'm still checking who, trying to contact people, etc. Maybe 'idling' isn't the word for that. Just being stationary?

These ideas MAY make some kinds of encounters more unlikely to happen, or some roles more awkward, but I doubt it, mostly because people are probably pretty eager to find each other right now and I doubt they'll use these tools to avoid each other. There may have been a time when those were very important objections, but right now I don't see those concerns being a good enough reason to just...watch people slowly give up on even finding RP. The only people left are the people who are really, really dedicated to TRYING to get it going again.

Again, these suggestions may make some things harder or more awkward. A sad truth, to be sure, but I'm firmly in the camp that something needs to be done. I don't think the way it is now is working very well anymore. Do you?

This is how they do it on Harshlands:

Use this command to let another player character (PC) you are
familiar with, or other clan members, know that you are online
and looking for roleplay. The notify command will cause the user's
terminal to issue a system beep to catch their attention if they
are in a different window or otherwise away from the keys.
(If you find the beeps distracting, you may toggle them on and off
using the '#6set mute#0' command.)

You may notify a PC by their name, or by all or a part of their short
description. ALL online PCs matching your criteria will be
notified, so be as specific as possible.

Syntax:
> notify Revus
> notify silver-haired, sapphirine-eyed man
> notify silver
(this would notify the last PC to log into Harshlands
with 'silver' anywhere in their short description)
> notify Tashal City

NOTE: You must type a clan name EXACTLY as you see it in clan
with the exact capitalization in order to work properly.
It is case sensitive.

The same command is used to respond to a notify sent to you or
your clan, to let the notifier know that you are online and ready
to engage in roleplay. To do this, simply type notify without any
extra arguments to the command.

If you want the notifier to see your short description in your notify
response use notify back.

If you want the notifier to see your short description and the room
name you are in currently use notify area.

Syntax:
> notify (This returns "Notifyee is online")
> notify back (This returns "Notifyee is online" to the notifier)
> notify area (This returns your sdesc and room to the notifier)

GENERAL NOTES:
The notify command does not stack. If multiple people notify
your reply will be sent to the last notifier.
However you can have a Clan Notify and Personal Notify on you so you may
need to Notify back multiple times to clear both from your character.

Notify does not expire. And can be left/ignored until you log
off or position yourself where you are avaliable to roleplay.
With consideration to note 1.

The set command has two other valuable ways to help find and be found by
other PCs: set available and set location

100% Agree, I did a big write up about some ideas in another thread here too: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,59100.0.html Rather than just repeating myself, but a +1 for sure

I think this would be a horrible thing to do and make the game feel much more OOC, those other games don't have the secrecy element so it doesn't really matter since they don't have anything worthwhile to be interested in, but with Armageddon a lot of the time there's characters that can't idle in taverns without being killed, or can't identify themselves by using the Way when giving interesting information that can lead to fun plot points you wouldn't hear otherwise (though this is also a good reason to keep hoods down in the city if you're waiting around for RP, sometimes a character might way still if they aren't comfortable hanging out)

It'd mean people would just sit around checking who, and less likely to be the first to go look (and then sit down instead of walking all the way back straight away)

Maybe just specify taverns as having greatly slowed down food/thirst like was done during some of the big RP events

Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 25, 2023, 02:17:14 PM
I think this would be a horrible thing to do and make the game feel much more OOC, those other games don't have the secrecy element so it doesn't really matter since they don't have anything worthwhile to be interested in, but with Armageddon a lot of the time there's characters that can't idle in taverns without being killed, or can't identify themselves by using the Way when giving interesting information that can lead to fun plot points you wouldn't hear otherwise (though this is also a good reason to keep hoods down in the city if you're waiting around for RP, sometimes a character might way still if they aren't comfortable hanging out)

Maybe just specify taverns as having greatly slowed down food/thirst like was done during some of the big RP events

The food/thirst thing is the least of my problems. Forget I even mentioned that. I really don't care all that much, it's a money sink anyway and those are good. Let the game feel a little more OOC. I'd take that over watching its death rattle any day.

Not everyone has to be identified just because it automatically says there are 3 people in the Gaj; it's totally opt-in if you want you yourself to be identified by sdesc or whatever. If you enter a hot spot, the number may tick up, but it won't say who it is. And there's no reason you'd have to use those tools if you didn't want to.

The only horrible thing to do on this front that I can imagine is nothing. I don't know where you're playing or when you're playing that you think that the biggest problem we might have is the game feeling a bit OOC with its mechanics. The cities are empty, the clans are empty, and people are writing rumors just to announce that they exist.

Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 25, 2023, 02:17:14 PM
those other games don't have the secrecy element so it doesn't really matter since they don't have anything worthwhile to be interested in, but with Armageddon a lot of the time

That's pretty rude and wrong.

HL does infact have huge secrecy, I'd argue almost more then Arm. There are forbidden dark faiths that skulk around, there's the thieves guild that has 9~ characters in it, and if anything, these mechanics help improve their gameplay then if there wasn't these mechanics.

Here's a log from July 5 2019

QuoteThe Storm's End Spice Den [N, S, W, U]
At a black silk pillow, you overhear the swarthy, dark-bearded man say in tribal-accented sirihish:
     "I was there to appreciate and nearly bid for the Drov piece.. I've seen your talent."
At a black silk pillow, you overhear the dusky, feline-eyed woman say in an unfamiliar tongue, settling back into the pillow again with a grin:
     "oqatu oia. m'vq pyljiyu il re oyreny, oitge omo'uc eu qyaos mna mehlmimoeom ul lyna."
Reconnecting...
Reconnected.
You notice: The swarthy, dark-bearded man's eyes flicker from a brief, distant look, back to the dusky, feline-eyed woman.
You notice: The dusky, feline-eyed woman's gaze searches over the draperies above as she looks away from the swarthy, dark-bearded man.

These players were literally reacting to the OOC message of Someone has reconnected. I know at least one of them absolutely knew better, but part of the problem is having "roleplay is required" in the rules is very vague and messages like that should have on the end to make it clear, so people can't abuse gray areas: (OOC, do not respond to)

Letting people know "There is one person here" but not seeing any PCs IC (so knowing OOC there is someone hiding) would be terrible, some people would absolutely start acting strangely to avoid interaction, or running off even (even for people that say they wouldn't, knowing stuff like that can prejudice people's actions unconsciously, this is just one of those unavoidable human nature things)

And if it DIDN'T say there is that extra person hiding, some people would just not go to the tavern at all, because it doesn't say there's people there. :)



One thing also to consider though is that it also can be bad for RP if there's one person staring around/ logging all chat and all Sdescs that go in and out of the tavern (I've seen some people do this at city gates even, which feels really unfair since it's frowned upon to take action against AFK/linkdead characters) and make people avoid that tavern if there's someone idle bot-logging everyone that goes in/every conversation


I think a lot of people stopped playing in cities because there's some players in powerful roles that are absolutely cheating, I hope that changes but probably a lot of people are waiting for stories of some people being caught and the rot being excised, even before the recent drama Luir's has been busier for a long time now




Maybe what would be good is if there was a heat-map style thing that says instead, when you enter the tavern- you do a sort of thing like Hunt but only for taverns, "mix"/"mingle":

You take a while to look around, assessing the crowd:(this takes a while, so people don't just walk in, check, then leave)
There's always people around, but it seems pretty busy right now. Though people say it was busier a few hours ago. (OOC: 4 player characters are or were here within the last 10 minutes, 6 during last 30 minutes, 9 this past Zalanthan day)
(while avoiding people on opt-out/in stealth)

First of all, it would be easy enough to make hidden characters not tick up the count. That's how it works in most of these games, as far as I know.

Second of all, I am still in favor of it even if someone exploits OOC information sometimes. Let the game get over its death throes, at least, before we double down on our famous Armageddon purism. By all means, take out these mechanics once we no longer need them. That is, IF we ever get to the point that we no longer need them, which I think is a pipe dream at this point. But this, right now -- this is about saving the game from the brink. And I don't think that's a melodramatic statement. It's the honest, realistic truth.

Yeah but already went over that it would stop people coming to RP with the hidden people if that became the new standard of checking where is active, because if they know "no one" is there, it's one of those endless design problems that no one usually wants to be the first one to wait around, there'd be more hiding away and waiting for an OOC message to pop up

I think the idea I put at the end could be a good compromise anyway

People will have plenty of reasons to be elsewhere than the most populated room. Lots of people hate tavern-sitting anyway, and have plenty of reasons to go elsewhere, whether they choose to advertise their locations or not. I don't think your idea does much, tiny rainbow. It might have been a cool little feature at one time, but it isn't very useful now. There needs to be a system in place that can, at the very least, guarantee new/returning players that they will be able to get some kind of RP if they play Armageddon. That is the bare minimum, and we are falling short of that bare minimum. How can you ever expect it to get better when that is the case?

I like the idea of the game displaying where some of the players in the game are.
The big question is:
How much is shared?


I think my current parameters are:
No names, no short descriptions.

I would like it split up into zones, much like other games do.  Here's an example:

>who
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 8 players in Allanak, Labyrinth & the Vrun Driath area
There are 6 players in Tuluk & the Gol Krathu area
There are 4 players in Luir's Outpost & surrounding area
There are 3 players in Red Storm & surrounding area
There are 8 players in the Tablelands area
There are 9 players elsewhere in the known

I like mansa's version of it the best, personally, in terms of the 'where' command.

I also felt the need to do the math and made sure he properly added up the numbers.

Quote from: mansa on March 25, 2023, 03:30:03 PM
I like the idea of the game displaying where some of the players in the game are.
The big question is:
How much is shared?


I think my current parameters are:
No names, no short descriptions.

I would like it split up into zones, much like other games do.  Here's an example:

>who
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 8 players in Allanak, Labyrinth & the Vrun Driath area
There are 6 players in Tuluk & the Gol Krathu area
There are 4 players in Luir's Outpost & surrounding area
There are 3 players in Red Storm & surrounding area
There are 8 players in the Tablelands area
There are 9 players elsewhere in the known

I liked the options that EoE had. You could use 'someone' rather than a sdesc, or you could show your sdesc (handy for sponsored roles or people who are looking for employers), and you could just choose if you showed as part of it as not on the where. If you weren't on where, you weren't shown, if you chose to be shown, it showed the room, which could be in taverns, or whatever room you choose.

So you could see something like:

You see 8 people other than yourself.

The chiseled, onyx-streaked lass is at the Storm's End.
Someone's at the Storm's End.
Someone's in the Gaj and Gladiator.
Someone is at <Whatever the sdesc of the room desc for The Gem in the Pah is>.

Just, as an example.

I like Mansa's suggestion, but at the same time I'm not sure if it's a good idea for the game to let someone know they're the only active player in a particular population center.

edit: Maybe if it's below a certain threshold it just says "There are fewer than x people in..."

What if it used the new Tavern flag, and showed you how many people were in each tavern?



>where
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in the Gladiator and the Gaj
There are 6 players in The Storm's End

Quote from: Halaster on March 25, 2023, 04:57:00 PM
What if it used the new Tavern flag, and showed you how many people were in each tavern?



>where
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in the Gladiator and the Gaj
There are 6 players in The Storm's End

This is a good idea.

A lot of games actually do a variation of this already, but they usually flag rooms as "public" and anyone that is visible (or not trying to be invisible) in those rooms is counted. Can easily be applied to taverns, as well as other common gathering RP spots. You could even have clan-only spots so that someone in the Byn, for example, can "who" and see how many people are in the mess hall or something.

Quote from: Halaster on March 25, 2023, 04:57:00 PM
What if it used the new Tavern flag, and showed you how many people were in each tavern?



>where
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in the Gladiator and the Gaj
There are 6 players in The Storm's End

This'd be solid, and expanded on easily if need be.

That'd be terrible for the game though - There's been new players that came from other MUDs recently, talking about serious problems can't even be mentioned here - but people play here because it offers something different from everything else. If we start taking that away, it dilutes the sense of mystery and adventure Armageddon has:

The idea of having a quick way to OOC check which areas are active without doing any IC travelling would not help people not playing Templar-aligned characters at all:
If people see that there are no people in the tavern and so don't go there, everyone is missing out on RP opportunities constantly, it'll be much worse for a lot of players, while only helping one side. Game changes need to help everyone.

A lot of the time those "antagonist" characters are just more neutral, and it's the city type characters that are antagonistic to them (e.g. death if caught) - aren't even out to kill or steal or hurt, just for fun politics RP (that helps increase RP in both cities even!). Seriously. Think about someone like Little jozhal, I can count one one hand characters stolen from or killed! And facilitated a lot of RP and plots between both cities. Before the way change, if there was something, even an emote, that made someone suspicious, I sometimes used to get people, including sponsored role merchant characters, sometimes using contact to see if it says "Someone" (before the change, it would show that if someone was hiding). Code supporting people equally when possible instead of only relying on staff to punish, is usually better that way, and avoids a lot of drama too.

I don't mind the idea, but I think you should have to travel to the room first to see if people have been around recently.

Like this:

Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 25, 2023, 03:08:51 PMsort of thing like Hunt but only for taverns, "mix"/"mingle":

You take a while to look around, assessing the crowd:(this takes a while, so people don't just walk in, check, then leave)
There's always people around, but it seems pretty busy right now. Though people say it was busier a few hours ago. (OOC: 4 player characters are or were here within the last 10 minutes, 6 during last 30 minutes, 9 this past Zalanthan day)
(while avoiding people on opt-out/in stealth)

Quote from: Halaster on March 25, 2023, 04:57:00 PM
What if it used the new Tavern flag, and showed you how many people were in each tavern?



>where
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in the Gladiator and the Gaj
There are 6 players in The Storm's End

This would be really good idea, I do also think an option to advertise your character name or some sort of way to allow people who don't know you to way you. The main issue I've had with trying to find people in game is both well... Finding them in the first place, and waying them. Going through your entire contact list waying every single person hoping you get a hit is far from ideal, especially when sometimes contact fails without you knowing it. Just something people can opt-into if they want to find people, if it's opt-in, I cant imagine there being any issues with it.

I can see the allure of knowing what areas people are playing in.

I honestly think that would be something to know at chargen.

If I knew which clans were popping with activity, I'd be more inclined to play in those clans.

If you tell me Allanak is popping with activity, that could mean a few things.  The Gemmed (who are allowed limited positive interaction), the Byn (who rely heavily on an active leader), the AoD (also relatively depended upon an active leader), the Nobility (who rely on Aides and others), Merchant Families (who rely on local consumers), the Rinth (east side who rely on a PC population), the Rinth (west side who also rely on a PC population), and Independents (who are the recipients of the aforementioned's interactions).

If I roll a spec app for a Byn Trooper and then find out that the Byn in Allanak is dead and the activity I saw for Allanak was all Gemmed, well then... Crap!!  I can't recruit to the Byn as a Trooper.  I shouldn't be riding out alone.  There's nobody to spar with...  Sure glad I rolled a combat character with little to combat.

This is the same for an AoD member or someone rolling a rinther or even an independent.

Maybe someone could update a weekly roster of which clans have activity AND which clans are actively recruiting.  It'd be nice to see some of those IG recruiting rumours put onto the GDB somewhere.

I like Halaster's idea to start. I think that was kind of what I was getting at earlier with the "hot spots" thing. They wouldn't all have to be taverns, although if that's an easy way to do it because of the flag, that's cool too. I do think we may need more dramatic measures to save us from bleeding out playerwise, but we can start with that for sure!

For old-schoolers who are concerned that it's all a bit too OOC for our immersive game, what about an IC or quasi-IC mechanic? Stand in a room that's flagged as populated, and drop a command like 'query' or even 'ask around'. It could return certain PUBLIC areas (noble and templar quarters excluded, of course) where there is more than one PC gathered. Nowhere sneaky, no dark alleys, no weird side streets, no clan compounds, just areas that are flagged as potential meeting areas for the general public.

You listen to the chatter, and learn of some lively areas in town:

The Gladiator and the Gaj Tavern -- Main Room
The Red's Retreat -- Antechamber
Meleth's Circle

It's not perfect. For one thing, yes, NPCs and VNPCs are people, too. But I think we can assume that they tend to go where the PC's go, as well. If people are really that put off by a 'where' sort of command, this could be a way to flavor it IC.

Quote from: Halaster on March 25, 2023, 04:57:00 PM
What if it used the new Tavern flag, and showed you how many people were in each tavern?



>where
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in the Gladiator and the Gaj
There are 6 players in The Storm's End

I like this particular idea quite a bit - more so than what I thought I would prefer (any public room with an opt-in command) because people come to the taverns (usually) to seek out RP with a variety of other people as opposed to while buying furniture.

+1 mansa.

The problem is though if you can just check without going there, because they just did a command and it said no one there:

- no one will go there if characters are opted out of showing, who sometimes have very legitimate fun RP reasons and are not just there to steal all your travel cakes

- if it says there are people on the list and you can't see them, some people start acting differently due to the OOC knowledge

Can't win, it's better to just tell people if there's people visiting when people travel to the room, so people will know to hang around and meet others and avoid the "person checks tavern/who list, sees no one, walks on, second person walks/logs on and does the same" :)

Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 25, 2023, 05:11:41 PMwould not help people not playing Templar-aligned characters at all:
If people see that there are no people in the tavern and so don't go there, everyone is missing out on RP opportunities constantly, it'll be much worse for a lot of players, while only helping one side. Game changes need to help everyone.

A lot of the time those "antagonist" characters are just more neutral, and it's the city type characters that are antagonistic to them (e.g. death if caught) - aren't even out to kill or steal or hurt, just for fun politics RP (that helps increase RP in both cities even!). Seriously. Think about someone like Little jozhal, I can count one one hand characters stolen from or killed! And facilitated a lot of RP and plots between both cities. Before the way change, if there was something, even an emote, that made someone suspicious, I sometimes used to get people, including sponsored role merchant characters, sometimes using contact to see if it says "Someone" (before the change, it would show that if someone was hiding). Code supporting people equally when possible instead of only relying on staff to punish, is usually better that way, and avoids a lot of drama too.

I don't mind the idea, but I think you should have to travel to the room first to see if people have been around recently.

Like this:

Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 25, 2023, 03:08:51 PMsort of thing like Hunt but only for taverns, "mix"/"mingle":

You take a while to look around, assessing the crowd:(this takes a while, so people don't just walk in, check, then leave)
There's always people around, but it seems pretty busy right now. Though people say it was busier a few hours ago. (OOC: 4 player characters are or were here within the last 10 minutes, 6 during last 30 minutes, 9 this past Zalanthan day)
(while avoiding people on opt-out/in stealth)

At the moment, it's impossible to determine which RP centers are populated without taking the time to walk to them. Depending on things like weather conditions and where you're starting from, it can take 10-20 minutes to do a full check of a city's taverns.

The solution being discussed in this thread would help facilitate pushing players towards populated locations asap. To solve the problem of players not going to taverns because they see no one there, I don't think that can be programmed. That requires a cultural shift on the part of the playerbase for players to be willing to be the first one in a tavern.

You can easily program the "who" command to not count players that are invisible or trying to hide. You can also remove the count of a room in "who" if you are already in that room. That would leave no room for players using OOC knowledge to be suspicious about a room's occupants or lack thereof.

Quote from: CirclelessBard on March 25, 2023, 07:40:33 PM

The solution being discussed in this thread would help facilitate pushing players towards populated locations asap. To solve the problem of players not going to taverns because they see no one there, I don't think that can be programmed. That requires a cultural shift on the part of the playerbase for players to be willing to be the first one in a tavern.

You feel this needs a cultural shift to get players to be the first in a tavern. I agree! That's why I think it's a bad idea to encourage people to go to places already populated by telling them where everyone is. That discourages people from going anywhere else.

Quote from: LetaSpringle on March 25, 2023, 07:53:13 PM

Quote from: CirclelessBard on March 25, 2023, 07:40:33 PM

The solution being discussed in this thread would help facilitate pushing players towards populated locations asap. To solve the problem of players not going to taverns because they see no one there, I don't think that can be programmed. That requires a cultural shift on the part of the playerbase for players to be willing to be the first one in a tavern.

You feel this needs a cultural shift to get players to be the first in a tavern. I agree! That's why I think it's a bad idea to encourage people to go to places already populated by telling them where everyone is. That discourages people from going anywhere else.

I don't see how it is ever a bad idea in a roleplaying game to tell players where other players looking for roleplay are hanging out. The player can use that information to go to a populated tavern, or use that information to go to an empty one.

Quote from: CirclelessBard on March 25, 2023, 07:56:24 PM

Quote from: LetaSpringle on March 25, 2023, 07:53:13 PM

Quote from: CirclelessBard on March 25, 2023, 07:40:33 PM

The solution being discussed in this thread would help facilitate pushing players towards populated locations asap. To solve the problem of players not going to taverns because they see no one there, I don't think that can be programmed. That requires a cultural shift on the part of the playerbase for players to be willing to be the first one in a tavern.

You feel this needs a cultural shift to get players to be the first in a tavern. I agree! That's why I think it's a bad idea to encourage people to go to places already populated by telling them where everyone is. That discourages people from going anywhere else.

I don't see how it is ever a bad idea in a roleplaying game to tell players where other players looking for roleplay are hanging out. The player can use that information to go to a populated tavern, or use that information to go to an empty one.

option c) They can use that information to be discouraged and log out if the populated tavern is in a different city.

without the change they would go or not go as their character would do and run into other people or not. If they spend 5 minutes to get there maybe they'll stick around another 5 minutes and someone else will come along.  With the change you encourage them to just not do that.

The staff member coding this feature could easily only show tavern counts for the city your character is currently in. I hope we don't discount the entire idea when a relatively minor tweak to the idea can preserve it.

I was expecting a slightly different discussion in this thread.  I would like to ask

What suggestions do people have for facilitating finding RP with a small playerbase that can be done right now?
Do you have any advice that does not involve OOC coordination or the introduction of new game mechanics?
what can we do on our own without any code updates?

Quote from: Obeliskocism on March 25, 2023, 08:30:48 PM
I was expecting a slightly different discussion in this thread.  I would like to ask

What suggestions do people have for facilitating finding RP with a small playerbase that can be done right now?
Do you have any advice that does not involve OOC coordination or the introduction of new game mechanics?
what can we do on our own without any code updates?

Everyone stores and joins the Byn.

Quote from: Obeliskocism on March 25, 2023, 08:30:48 PM
I was expecting a slightly different discussion in this thread.  I would like to ask

What suggestions do people have for facilitating finding RP with a small playerbase that can be done right now?
Do you have any advice that does not involve OOC coordination or the introduction of new game mechanics?
what can we do on our own without any code updates?

I think the players that are left are already trying as hard as they possibly can to make this happen, and it's not happening on its own. Maybe there are things we can do to make it slightly better, but this kind of initiative is never going to be enough when we cannot in good conscience promise new/returning players that they will have regular RP in this presumably roleplay intensive game. That is a huge problem that will not go away until something tangible is changed.

I'm really shocked that any of these ideas are even controversial at this point. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and these honestly aren't even desperate measures.

I usually see about 5-12 players online at my regular playtimes, and often none of them seem to be in my area or anywhere I can find at all. This isn't just about going where the crowd already is; you can go to an empty tavern and be secure in the fact that other people will not have to stumble upon you by some stroke of luck in a very nearly empty game, but that they'll be able to see that you're there and at least have the information they need to make a decision about whether to go there or not.

I am actually...amazed that people are fighting any kind of measure like this, when the off-peak experience is basically a single-player experience. Are we trying to go down with the ship here? Because that's what this feels like.

Yes, there are some minor downsides. There are downsides to 'who c' too, but I've always found it much better than not having it in a tribal context. And I'm sad to say it, but often the entire game has the numbers that I used to see in the Tablelands alone. But do any of you guys actually, honestly think that a vast, barren, desolate text game whose numbers are constantly hemorrhaging will actually be better off when no one has any OOC or even quasi-IC tools they can use to find each other? I think it'd be great if we could just rely on chance encounters, but we aren't playing that game anymore! We can't just stick our heads in the sand and pretend this is going to get better out of our own sheer gumption when I literally have to beg the person I brought to the game to stay because he sees no one, interacts with no one, there are next to no clans to join, etc.

Quote from: Beethoven on March 25, 2023, 08:51:06 PM
I'm really shocked that any of these ideas are even controversial at this point. Desperate times call for desperate measures, and these honestly aren't even desperate measures.

I usually see about 5-12 players online at my regular playtimes, and often none of them seem to be in my area or anywhere I can find at all. This isn't just about going where the crowd already is; you can go to an empty tavern and be secure in the fact that other people will not have to stumble upon you by some stroke of luck in a very nearly empty game, but that they'll be able to see that you're there and at least have the information they need to make a decision about whether to go there or not.

I am actually...amazed that people are fighting any kind of measure like this, when the off-peak experience is basically a single-player experience. Are we trying to go down with the ship here? Because that's what this feels like.

Yes, there are some minor downsides. There are downsides to 'who c' too, but I've always found it much better than not having it in a tribal context. And I'm sad to say it, but often the entire game has the numbers that I used to see in the Tablelands alone. But do any of you guys actually, honestly think that a vast, barren, desolate text game whose numbers are constantly hemorrhaging will actually be better off when no one has any OOC or even quasi-IC tools they can use to find each other? I think it'd be great if we could just rely on chance encounters, but we aren't playing that game anymore! We can't just stick our heads in the sand and pretend this is going to get better out of our own sheer gumption when I literally have to beg the person I brought to the game to stay because he sees no one, interacts with no one, there are next to no clans to join, etc.

This.

I'm actually genuinely astonished there's bite-back on this. It seems like people are trying to argue for the ship to sink, at this point. Most RPIs don't pull alot of players, and that's why these mechanics are a norm for almost every other RPI. This is why those RPIs can last with their 'community' for a long, long time.

If people play an RP game and find absolutely no RP because a couple people are scared of some incredibly arbitrary downsides to a very positive change, then, you will get a dead game sooner then later.

Just strange over-all.

There's a reason people keep coming back to Armageddon - Trying to remove the few things it has that differentiate it from less interesting games seems more like trying to argue for the ship to sink, because it's the kind of thing that would make us get bored of it.

I played both play styles as I was trying to point out, the important thing is to not prioritize one over the other.

It's not fair to give people a means to avoid one half of the game just because it will help the other. It's half of the game.

Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 25, 2023, 09:30:02 PM
There's a reason people keep coming back to Armageddon - Trying to remove the few things it has that differentiate it from less interesting games seems more like trying to argue for the ship to sink, because it's the kind of thing that would make us get bored of it.

I played both play styles as I was trying to point out, the important thing is to not prioritize one over the other.

It's not fair to give people a means to avoid one half of the game just because it will help the other. It's half of the game.

I think the problem is that they're not, though.

We literally halved, at points third, even quartered who was logged in at peak times 3 months ago.

So I think presupposing people 'keep coming back' is... disingenuous at best. And willfully blind.

We stopped logging on for very different reasons though. One of them is the way some city players behave. Not staff, players. Because experience as per the examples given, has proven the way this kind of thing would end up.
Giving another reason to make things less interesting is not the kind of thing the game needs right now.

Just being able to tell when people have been around would make a huge difference and stop the ships passing by problem that wouldn't be solved by this, it just turns to log in and log out instead.

I admit I'm a huge proponent to this kind of change to help people find RP easier. We're talking about regular old tavern RP here, not who is hanging out in somewhere special. If people don't find people to play with, they're going to log out from boredom - especially when you can travel from Luir's to Storm to Nak and not find anyone.

Worse, miss people who you could have found right away if it wasn't for making unnecessary trips.

Facilitating the ease of RP immediately should be a top priority to retain or attract players.

It's already ridiculously too easy to travel through the desert compared to the old stories of gith and adventures, if it was updated and modernised to be more reactive (remove the feeding buff to avoid cities it was a massive mistake, add NPCs spawning up to warparties if killing lots or a big group etc) without needing staff to be there, maybe people would be in the cities more and group up for stuff instead of soloing until they get bored

+1 to Mansas idea!

A 'where' command that shows how many PCs are in bar areas could be useful. You don't even need to show the exact sdesc of the PCs there. It could just be:

>where
>The Gladiator and the Gaj: 3 PCs.

Quote from: Kankfly on March 26, 2023, 07:29:57 AM
A 'where' command that shows how many PCs are in bar areas could be useful. You don't even need to show the exact sdesc of the PCs there. It could just be:

>where
>The Gladiator and the Gaj: 3 PCs.

This one particularly appeals to me. Get to see how crowded  some hubs are without giving away who's around

How about we have a Roster posted on the GDB of active clans with their player count.  Easily captured by the monthly attendance rosters that people post in their respective clan sub-forums.

I don't know that it's about finding people in game as much as it is finding people that make sense for you to roleplay with.

I also think that some of the older restrictions on in-city disallowances should cease.

I don't understand the reasoning behind allowing Templar aides into the AoD barracks if you're not going to allow them to spar.  They're not allowed a locker or a cot.  We're being overly restrictive for the sake of telling somebody NO.  There were six players on the other day and two people decided to spar together.  They received reprimands.  Why?  I think for something like sparring when both parties have access to the same barracks, that should be allowed.

I recall playing Tariq (a mundane) and getting harassed for brawling with a gemmed when I specifically had the roleplay of him kicking the gemmed off of his stool.  And please don't tell me that he shouldn't be sitting where a gemmed sat.  If that's the case, you can't walk in Allanak at all.  Beating down a gemmed (or even a breed) for a barstool should be normal.

Maybe it is time to close Allanak. Not even half of the playerbase is there.  Not even one-third.  I'd venture to say not even one-quarter.  There was an event at 1430 Server yesterday that drew four total people.  Two of them were running the event.  One of the four showed up and left.  This was announced on the GDB, announced in the rumour boards, and the bell was rung repeatedly for ten minutes prior.  There are clans that have successfully logged in similar numbers IN ONE CLAN.  Allanak has how many clans?  Byn, Guild, AoD, Oashi Circle, Eastrook, Sasani, Gemmed (now that they have a sub-forum, yay!), a few active nobles looking for aides, Kurac, Salarr, Kadius (all three looking for hunters and crafters), and Independents.  Between all those clans, only four people showed up for a time that should have worked for both American and European players.

There's a severe lack of PC leadership as well.  Maybe because nobody wants to play an underling in Allanak.

Couple the lack of PC leadership with the fact that there's no real PvE in Allanak, and with lower numbers all you have is PvP.  Sorry, but a rogue drovian alleyrat isn't what draws people to play in the city.

Having a command that shows WHERE people are playing can be helpful, but I don't believe it'll be anywhere close to enough.

The problem with Mansa's version is it will threaten to further enhance the problem. If someone logins to Allanak and they see no one is playing in Allanak they might log off.  Harshlands way similarly has this flaw.  If you want to play with x person and they're not on maybe you just log off. 

I think more ooc facilitation is long time coming and desperately needed, but it can have cons more so than just too much IC information.

Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 25, 2023, 02:17:14 PM
I think this would be a horrible thing to do and make the game feel much more OOC, those other games don't have the secrecy element so it doesn't really matter since they don't have anything worthwhile to be interested in,

This sounds like sour grapes, especially since those other games now frequently have larger who sizes than Armageddon does.

Quote from: Supified on March 26, 2023, 04:55:50 PM
The problem with Mansa's version is it will threaten to further enhance the problem. If someone logins to Allanak and they see no one is playing in Allanak they might log off.  Harshlands way similarly has this flaw.  If you want to play with x person and they're not on maybe you just log off. 

I think more ooc facilitation is long time coming and desperately needed, but it can have cons more so than just too much IC information.

I feel the same. Also easy to find your victim with some other ideas.  contact your target by name and know they're a city person. Then try where and get: There is one person in Allanak. They're in the Gaj.

goto gaj backstab target

Much easier to pk if you know where to find your targets because the ooc command tells you where to look.  Also easier to rob apartments if you know there's 5 people in Allanak and you go to the Gaj and all 5 of them are sitting at the bar.

Supified's objections make sense, but I'm not sure I agree with LetaSpringle's. I would personally rather be twinkishly robbed or murderized IC than give up and eventually just drop the game because it's dismal and lonely.

Quote from: Beethoven on March 26, 2023, 06:10:06 PM
Supified's objections make sense, but I'm not sure I agree with LetaSpringle's. I would personally rather be twinkishly robbed or murderized IC than give up and eventually just drop the game because it's dismal and lonely.

I agree with this honestly, I don't think the majority of people who play Arm play it for the PKing, I'd rather the majority have better access to interaction than the game dropping because people think the game is dead when they log on.

I wouldn't do this 'where' command by region zones. Tavern only would be fine.

What Armageddon has is a different type of RP, and if it was just the same as everywhere else, then there would be no reason to come here instead, so chipping away at the things that make it unique is literally the worst thing we could do.

The ships passing by thing is a real, important issue that's been talked about it before. But being able to OOC instantly check where people are with a command doesn't solve it, as people from other games have said..

Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 25, 2023, 03:08:51 PMfor taverns, "mix"/"mingle":

You take a while to look around, assessing the crowd:(this takes a while, so people don't just walk in, check, then leave)
There's always people around, but it seems pretty busy right now. Though people say it was busier a few hours ago. (OOC: 4 player characters are or were here within the last 10 minutes, 6 during last 30 minutes, 9 this past Zalanthan day)
(while avoiding people on opt-out/in stealth)

Making it so you know where is busy is the obvious thing, and it'd be way better than having to spam a who command often which means you'd still miss people logging in to look, then logging out again.

Quote from: Supified on March 26, 2023, 04:57:27 PM

Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 25, 2023, 02:17:14 PM
I think this would be a horrible thing to do and make the game feel much more OOC, those other games don't have the secrecy element so it doesn't really matter since they don't have anything worthwhile to be interested in,

This sounds like sour grapes, especially since those other games now frequently have larger who sizes than Armageddon does.

Hi. Maybe think carefully when being rude to people you don't know on a game like this, because it might be someone who played a few different characters that I got the impression you liked
...No despite the assumption, no, I've not had any issues with larger MUDs personally. But I literally can't repost again some of the horrific things I read about, from new players that left other places to join here, because it's not allowed to talk badly about other MUDs.

It's a lot less effort to RP somewhere that's already known for being stricter, than to try reinvent the wheel when everywhere else seems like back in the stone age still.
If someone wants to find a big amount of people roleplaying, the OBVIOUS choice is commercial games, which have thousands more people than any text-based game.
...And if numbers were the only thing that mattered, that would be the OBVIOUS choice
...But only going for quantity makes it a lot more effort to find anything worth spending the time on, and the chance of finding intricate plot-based RP is like finding a diamond in sand.

I bolded some lines I thought were important in these comments:

Quote from: flurry on March 25, 2023, 04:54:28 PM
I like Mansa's suggestion, but at the same time I'm not sure if it's a good idea for the game to let someone know they're the only active player in a particular population center.

edit: Maybe if it's below a certain threshold it just says "There are fewer than x people in..."

Quote from: Supified on March 26, 2023, 04:55:50 PM
The problem with Mansa's version is it will threaten to further enhance the problem. If someone logins to Allanak and they see no one is playing in Allanak they might log off.  Harshlands way similarly has this flaw.  If you want to play with x person and they're not on maybe you just log off. 

I think more ooc facilitation is long time coming and desperately needed, but it can have cons more so than just too much IC information.

Quote from: LetaSpringle on March 25, 2023, 08:16:49 PM

Quote from: CirclelessBard on March 25, 2023, 07:56:24 PM

Quote from: LetaSpringle on March 25, 2023, 07:53:13 PM

Quote from: CirclelessBard on March 25, 2023, 07:40:33 PM

The solution being discussed in this thread would help facilitate pushing players towards populated locations asap. To solve the problem of players not going to taverns because they see no one there, I don't think that can be programmed. That requires a cultural shift on the part of the playerbase for players to be willing to be the first one in a tavern.

You feel this needs a cultural shift to get players to be the first in a tavern. I agree! That's why I think it's a bad idea to encourage people to go to places already populated by telling them where everyone is. That discourages people from going anywhere else.

I don't see how it is ever a bad idea in a roleplaying game to tell players where other players looking for roleplay are hanging out. The player can use that information to go to a populated tavern, or use that information to go to an empty one.

option c) They can use that information to be discouraged and log out if the populated tavern is in a different city.

without the change they would go or not go as their character would do and run into other people or not. If they spend 5 minutes to get there maybe they'll stick around another 5 minutes and someone else will come along.  With the change you encourage them to just not do that.

I agree with the statement that "Is anybody in this area?" and you check, and there is no-one in your area, so you log out.
However, the other statement is, "Where is everybody?", which is also a very important to players who have the time to search out people.


I was rethinking my idea, and I think presenting the exact number of people in the area is an incorrect way to do it.   I still think we should tell the current players where the other players are, but presenting the exact number of them is the wrong way to do it.


Perhaps it could be modified in groups of 5?

>who
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are between 5 and 9 players in Allanak, Labyrinth & the Vrun Driath area
There are between 5 and 9 players in Tuluk & the Gol Krathu area
There are less than 5 players in Luir's Outpost & surrounding area
There are less than 5 players in Red Storm & surrounding area
There are between 5 and 9 players in the Tablelands area
There are between 5 and 9 players elsewhere in the known

Or other phrases to use to separate the volume of players into words.
"a few" - less than 5
"some" - between 5 and 10
"lots" - between 10 and 20
"many" - more than 20

Quote from: Halaster on March 25, 2023, 04:57:00 PM
What if it used the new Tavern flag, and showed you how many people were in each tavern?



>where
Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in the Gladiator and the Gaj
There are 6 players in The Storm's End

I think this is a great idea, and a good way of dipping our toes in the water of "do we want this kind of OOC tool."

Please don't include hidden people in the count? Both to protect sneakies and to discouraging perma-lurkin'.

TL;DR Giving any sort of OOC knowledge to be used in game will usually have unforeseen consequences that have be accepted and acknowledged.  Mostly, I think it's better that if we want to have other players included in play as much as possible, we should probably stop making pushes for everything everywhere all of the time.

QuotePlease don't include hidden people in the count? Both to protect sneakies and to discouraging perma-lurkin'.

Sneakies kind of throw a chink into this whole thing.  This all seems well and good now, but as criminals gain an automatic RP finder where their RP is nicking your gear or robbing your house while you're away, it won't be long before we have people talking about abuse of this command.

Honestly, this is one of those things that isn't needed.  It wasn't needed before when we had low player counts.  The only thing that has changed since then is that we have a simultaneous demand going on, to have things outside the cities be fleshed out and good for people, while also wanting things inside the cities to be readily available whenever we want them.  The game is 'based' on consolidation in the cities, and 'based' on public areas being main meeting spots (note:  When I say 'based', I don't mean we're playing it wrong.  I mean that innovations over time have lowered the availability/need of public spaces.  We've made apartments more available, we've made the desert easier, clan footlockers aren't your best hope for out-of-backpack storage, etc) Over years and years, we've fleshed out those other areas, grown the playerbase to support it, and just called it good, but in reality we can't be talking about how we hate playing in cities because they're more dangerous than the wilds and less fulfilling, then also demand that we have congregation spots filled up with people all across the known.

Whatever it is, a nosave toggle will make it better. I wouldn't want to be able to radar detect magickers in grasslands and go hunt them. If someone purposefully wants to be out of this zone broadcasting, vague or not, they should be given the right to do so.
Or perhaps, make it IC and -barrier- preventing it. (sorry if it was mentioned before, too lazy to read all right now.)

QuoteWhatever it is, a nosave toggle will make it better.

Derp, you might have mentioned that earlier but I didn't think of that.  That does address a good amount of crap.

Just make it a toggle.

'Set available'
And your location shows up.
Make it auto turn off if you leave the room/hide.
Poof, issue solved.

Agreed. If people don't want to show up in the count, let them toggle it off. Keep the count to bars only for people looking for RP. I think the problems people are concerned about are a lot less of an issue than they realistically are as opposed to the very real frustration people keep mentioning about being unable to find RP at times.

Quote from: Supified on March 26, 2023, 04:57:27 PM

Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 25, 2023, 02:17:14 PM
I think this would be a horrible thing to do and make the game feel much more OOC, those other games don't have the secrecy element so it doesn't really matter since they don't have anything worthwhile to be interested in,

This sounds like sour grapes, especially since those other games now frequently have larger who sizes than Armageddon does.

QuoteHi. Maybe think carefully when being rude to people you don't know on a game like this, because it might be someone who played a few different characters that I got the impression you liked
...No despite the assumption, no, I've not had any issues with larger MUDs personally. But I literally can't repost again some of the horrific things I read about, from new players that left other places to join here, because it's not allowed to talk badly about other MUDs.

It's a lot less effort to RP somewhere that's already known for being stricter, than to try reinvent the wheel when everywhere else seems like back in the stone age still.
If someone wants to find a big amount of people roleplaying, the OBVIOUS choice is commercial games, which have thousands more people than any text-based game.
...And if numbers were the only thing that mattered, that would be the OBVIOUS choice
...But only going for quantity makes it a lot more effort to find anything worth spending the time on, and the chance of finding intricate plot-based RP is like finding a diamond in sand.

I appreciate your response and I need to clarify my intent is not to be rude to you.  If I came off that way I apologize.  The point I guess I am trying to make but didn't actually articulate is that Armageddon has long had the sense that it was the prime RPI game and the best and while this may have been true in the past, I feel that this feeling has also greatly contributed to where it is today.  A sort of sense of no urgency to improve due to already being the best.  Regardless now of if some of the remaining players still feel that way, the stark reality is the court of public opinion does not seem to agree anymore.  So when someone posts something implying the "we're the best" mentality, it really rubs me wrong, because I think it's been a harmful view that the culture of Armageddon has long since clung to.

So again, I apologize for not communicating well, it isn't my intent to insult you and I Think there is valuable discussion to be had here.

I think it's a bit of a strawman to act like any of us are saying numbers are the only thing that matters. Personally, I just think that the numbers we have currently are unsustainable. I don't need thousands of players. I don't even need the old days of 70+ at peak. I just want enough that I feel like the world is alive again. Otherwise people will give up and there'll be 0 players, or maybe 1 guy every now and then who likes the single player experience.

Quote from: Beethoven on March 27, 2023, 11:28:26 AM
I think it's a bit of a strawman to act like any of us are saying numbers are the only thing that matters. Personally, I just think that the numbers we have currently are unsustainable. I don't need thousands of players. I don't even need the old days of 70+ at peak. I just want enough that I feel like the world is alive again. Otherwise people will give up and there'll be 0 players, or maybe 1 guy every now and then who likes the single player experience.

I do think we need to give credit where credit is due. The last players left will be those who believe the system is fine the way it is. All 5-10 of them.

Personal opinion only, I would honestly be most interest in regional information, and have it be a toggleable option.

Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in Allanak
There are 2 players in RSV
There are 4 players in Tuluk
There are 4 players in Luirs
There are 3 players in Southlands
There are 6 players in Tablelands

and so on, again with the option be toggle on/off.  You will show up in who as a player currently in the world regardless.  Then if you should decide you are interested in attracting RP (and have accepting that all RP does not equal positive RP) then toggle your zone flag.     Even though it would absolutely be an ooc construct, knowing what regions are active would at least likely impact where I gen up my next PC.

Quote from: GreenTransient on March 27, 2023, 01:57:10 PM
Personal opinion only, I would honestly be most interest in regional information, and have it be a toggleable option.

Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in Allanak
There are 2 players in RSV
There are 4 players in Tuluk
There are 4 players in Luirs
There are 3 players in Southlands
There are 6 players in Tablelands

and so on, again with the option be toggle on/off.  You will show up in who as a player currently in the world regardless.  Then if you should decide you are interested in attracting RP (and have accepting that all RP does not equal positive RP) then toggle your zone flag.     Even though it would absolutely be an ooc construct, knowing what regions are active would at least likely impact where I gen up my next PC.

There are 38 players total. 23 of them are okay with you knowing that area they're in. The rest are in the game but not telling you where. I like this.

Quote from: LetaSpringle on March 27, 2023, 02:40:14 PM

Quote from: GreenTransient on March 27, 2023, 01:57:10 PM
Personal opinion only, I would honestly be most interest in regional information, and have it be a toggleable option.

Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in Allanak
There are 2 players in RSV
There are 4 players in Tuluk
There are 4 players in Luirs
There are 3 players in Southlands
There are 6 players in Tablelands

and so on, again with the option be toggle on/off.  You will show up in who as a player currently in the world regardless.  Then if you should decide you are interested in attracting RP (and have accepting that all RP does not equal positive RP) then toggle your zone flag.     Even though it would absolutely be an ooc construct, knowing what regions are active would at least likely impact where I gen up my next PC.

There are 38 players total. 23 of them are okay with you knowing that area they're in. The rest are in the game but not telling you where. I like this.

Seconded. If you know where which zones people are in but as long as there are a few who don't indicate their zone so MAYBE your zone has people in it, that should largely fix the problem of people logging off the second they see no one is in their zone.   The possibility that they COULD be should counter it.  After all, people could already have logged off after trying to way one or two people, so it's at least no worse than present.

Quote from: Supified on March 27, 2023, 03:56:41 PM

Quote from: LetaSpringle on March 27, 2023, 02:40:14 PM

Quote from: GreenTransient on March 27, 2023, 01:57:10 PM
Personal opinion only, I would honestly be most interest in regional information, and have it be a toggleable option.

Immortals:
---------

There are 0 visible Immortals currently in the world.

There are 38 players currently in the world, other than yourself.
---------
Zones:

There are 4 players in Allanak
There are 2 players in RSV
There are 4 players in Tuluk
There are 4 players in Luirs
There are 3 players in Southlands
There are 6 players in Tablelands

and so on, again with the option be toggle on/off.  You will show up in who as a player currently in the world regardless.  Then if you should decide you are interested in attracting RP (and have accepting that all RP does not equal positive RP) then toggle your zone flag.     Even though it would absolutely be an ooc construct, knowing what regions are active would at least likely impact where I gen up my next PC.

There are 38 players total. 23 of them are okay with you knowing that area they're in. The rest are in the game but not telling you where. I like this.

Seconded. If you know where which zones people are in but as long as there are a few who don't indicate their zone so MAYBE your zone has people in it, that should largely fix the problem of people logging off the second they see no one is in their zone.   The possibility that they COULD be should counter it.  After all, people could already have logged off after trying to way one or two people, so it's at least no worse than present.

We all know the others are all in Tuluk. The whole subtle thing eh?

Quote from: GreenTransient on March 27, 2023, 01:57:10 PMEven though it would absolutely be an ooc construct, knowing what regions are active would at least likely impact where I gen up my next PC.

That's the same problem as I mentioned before again though, if you think about it - That if people aren't showing in the WHO list, then people won't go there - and human nature means most people won't want to risk going somewhere where there might not be people, when they can go to one they know has people already - so you get an unintended restriction of choice, effectively creating a filter bubble (https://www.ted.com/talks/Feli_pariser_beware_online_filter_bubbles) _{(notice also how TED provides a transcript link for the visually impaired, which Google/Youtube refuse to)}

- But to an even worse extent if it's people literally not trying other zones because they're assuming one area is empty, when it's not. Most of the time in some areas, that who list would be completely wrong.

Would be the same problem, making it region-wide just passes on and shifts the problem to an earlier stage really.



Some sort of "group finder" for making characters could be a good idea, that matches when people are logged on and gives suggestions where to play, one one level... But what if people don't want to give that kind of personal information for privacy or personal safety? (and one thing that is very noticeable is that a lot of people who are vulnerable for one reason or another play MUDs, I guess that is part of why I've been fighting so hard to try give this place a chance, I've seen a lot and read a lot of stories, happy and sad - and some very messed up, and a lot of people simply never want to make a fuss about what other players do, or poke their head up above the parapet in internet arguing - another example is even if not designed intentionally sites like reddit and wikipedia have ended up entirely patriarchal, just from their statistics, in a very similar way that a lot of people don't want to get involved in aggressive board room arguments)

Obviously a lot of us have seen these kind of things already in place elsewhere, and noted that they don't work particularly well for what they were intended, even if they were meant that way. Armageddon's different, but not worse.

Same deal with clans too, obviously there's too much IC plot info on clan boards to just browse through without pretty much ruining the game for everyone else, but a few times it was just me left, and a small group coalesced and became busy again, even while avoiding OOC networking because it doesn't feel fair on other people (Sergeant Kea didn't even advertise on the IC rumor boards and still didn't need to), and I wouldn't like it being done to me, so I don't do it either. If everyone acted like that, things would be so much better in so many ways

Again it comes to the same problem that some people would be missing out, through no faults of their own, either:

- Not being able to participate in it for whatever reason,

- Or being on the other side, and being given a false impression of numbers, and missing an opportunity - when sometimes, you can have a wonderful time sometimes even when there's only one other player around who is hidden at first, I definitely learnt that in the Sun Runners, and I think for some people Little jozhal was the first character they met, but that wouldn't have happened if people thought Luir's was empty. Not hiding to rob you. Hiding because she was involved in just about every plot in the game at some point and seemingly nearly every kind of monster that exists was after her.

A command that would merely tell you how many people are in each tavern would assist in social roleplay, but it however wouldn't help if there are specific characters you're looking to seek out to advance various plots. People can be constantly missing each other which can be a problem, especially if it's the time sensitive sort of plot or the people participating just don't have the time to be overtly active.

Finding out whether or not a specific person is online is a solved problem: you just type CONTACT AMOS. Finding any person with a pulse to emote at is the bigger issue here.

I think people are overestimating how discouraged people will be when they see that the taverns in their area are empty.

For one thing, as things are right now, they could walk by the tavern, find it empty, and decide to do the same thing. Taverns have a quit room of their own, and I don't see why someone might not just as easily go by the Gaj, see no one is there, and immediately quit out.

In fact, I think I would be LESS likely to immediately quit out if I knew that I could broadcast my being at the Gaj to others, and that people would know they could come RP with me if they wanted.

If there are two players logged on besides me, but I know that those 2 players can see that I'm looking for some social RP, that's a lot more incentive to stay on than "well, maybe we'll stumble across each other randomly."

EDIT: Plus, it has the added advantage of letting you advertise venues that are currently underutilized as RP hubs, rather than everyone just flocking to the Gaj because it's the only place you can find anyone these days, even if it doesn't make sense for their social class.

Quote from: Patuk on March 28, 2023, 06:36:49 AM
Finding out whether or not a specific person is online is a solved problem: you just type CONTACT AMOS. Finding any person with a pulse to emote at is the bigger issue here.

It's less easy than one might think. After all, both need to be active at the same time. Certainly, there are people that have the time to spend multiple hours on Arm. However, if a set of people don't, reaching each other can be a game of whack-a-mole. This is exacerbated since one IRL day corresponds to several IG. The further issue presented is, even if you do have time to be active for an extended period of time, you'll either need to consistently contact every period of time or act like a contact-beacon. This costs resources, water and food. Which means that, depending on your IC status, you have to spend further time acquiring resources just to stay online, time you won't be spending roleplaying but focusing on the mechanics of the economy.

ICly, it's also somewhat difficult to comprehend. *Why* am I unable to contact a character that exists and is presumably out and about? Maybe an OOC mailing system would be useful, discussing times and stuff such as 'we can say our characters ate together when we were both offline'. That sort of stuff is interesting. As it stands, another PC may be your best friend in the world, but inexplicably you only talk every few weeks. Have it require giving someone 'trust' to be able to OOCly message you to prevent abuse.

EDIT: This doesn't need to be a "one or the other" case. You can have this *and* another system advertising social area player counts, they don't need to be mutually exclusive.

There should not be an IC broadcast system. It will 100% be used, and correctly, to ambush players who come to investigate. If a mugger PC can get someone to broadcast their position at a bar then attack them outside on the way in, why wouldn't they? The idea here is to stimulate social RP with somewhat 'less' of a risk of violence.

However, an OOC where/who system is so ubiquitous in every other MU* it's almost jarring not to have it. I understand that this worked well when there were large amounts of players at any time, but I do think we need to face the fact that we're an online game and prioritize finding roleplay. I don't think it matters if someone checks where and sees nobody is around - if they're only logging in to check that, there's a better chance of them roleplaying with the command than without. In most situations you'd just end up in the exact same position as you are now. However, if I did know that there were 4 other people in public rooms not hidden in Allanak, I would probably be more likely to go out and see if I could stumble upon someone for a scene.

An OOC broadcast would be fine here, too. Pretty much any OOC system to find roleplay will outweigh the possible negatives, and if it's opt-in there shouldn't be an issue.

Before any of this I would first suggest something intermediate and easy to implement - like a recruiting board for new characters, timezone info on clan pay when making a char, localization of characters when making a char, etc. More information given when planning out what to make and where to play.

Quote from: Ibzie on March 28, 2023, 12:22:13 PM
EDIT: This doesn't need to be a "one or the other" case. You can have this *and* another system advertising social area player counts, they don't need to be mutually exclusive.

Correct. It is related, but separate from the issue people talk about, and likely deserves its own thread. It already had some discussion not too long ago in the MUDmail conversation, but it (regrettably) seems to have gone nowhere.

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on March 28, 2023, 01:31:57 PMif I did know that there were 4 other people in public rooms not hidden in Allanak, I would probably be more likely to go

But as mentioned before, part of the problem is exactly that you would go, that you would go there, instead of anywhere else - you'd have got a false impression, and passed up other characters that can't participate in this system because as mentioned before and the examples given of people acting very differently when they know other players is around (it's the same issues around making staff visible).

Quote from: Beethoven on March 28, 2023, 10:55:11 AM
I think people are overestimating how discouraged people will be when they see that the taverns in their area are empty.

What about the people who feel discouraged that they are patiently waiting for RP, and people are using OOC methods that are suggesting it's busier somewhere else, so go there, and completely go past Luir's or whatever, instead?

Do you not think that might be a bit discouraging too?

Why create a two tier system that favors only one group?

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on March 28, 2023, 01:31:57 PMBefore any of this I would first suggest something intermediate and easy to implement - like a recruiting board for new characters, timezone info on clan pay when making a char, localization of characters when making a char, etc. More information given when planning out what to make and where to play.

At one point the Arm of the Dragon were advertising their playtimes on the IC rumor board, but I don't think that kind of info should be available OOC, it seemed silly because it was basically saying "Hi, Allanak is unmonitored outside these times, go wild". It's probably just better to keep selection blind so there's no OOC influence in decisions

I was toughing it out. But randomly finding the one other guy still hanging on with you dead kinda just adds to the downward spiral as now there is no one.

I got tired of reading the same objections over and over without good options being offered in response.  In my search to find RP, I've moved elsewhere, which I guess seems to be the desired effect.  For whatever reason, to all of you who are so opposed to those of us stating that we can't find RP and are frustrated by that fact that we would like to see some kind of change to keep us playing here I hope you that insist that your personal opinion on what should and shouldn't be OOC should trump people wanting to play.  You deserve to feel the way we do, and I hope you get what you deserve.  People who are of the opinion that nothing is allowed to happen unless it benefits them personally, are a drag on the game and humanity.

These last two posts are an honest depiction of what is really happening with players. The player count speaks for itself, but if you don't believe that, at least listen to these people who are speaking out. For every tiny rainbow who is upset at the idea of making this change, there are probably 10+ players who quit out of frustration and loneliness. While I value the opinions of the tiny rainbows of the game, I don't think their comfort is worth losing the game over. Which is exactly what is happening, RIGHT NOW. Right before your eyes. I can't believe the contrarians don't think some concessions might actually be worth it. I really, really hope that staff listens to the desperation of (especially off-peak) players over the ones who think everything is cool and fine and shouldn't change (except, of course, in small, insignificant ways that are unlikely to make any difference), but I'm not counting on it, because denial and stagnancy are -- and I'm sad to say it -- classic Armageddon traditions.

Prove me wrong, staff. Read the writing on the wall.

(https://i1.sndcdn.com/artworks-SvzDuFfyt3AJ9fO1-iQrV9Q-t500x500.jpg)

The root cause of Armageddon's approaching demise is because too many people forgot that this is supposed to be a game and not a replacement for actual authority or emotional satisfaction in real life.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 29, 2023, 12:24:17 PM
The root cause of Armageddon's approaching demise is because too many people forgot that this is supposed to be a game and not a replacement for actual authority or emotional satisfaction in real life.

While I agree with you, I do see efforts to mitigate that tendency...whether or not they can be trusted, I don't know yet. What I do know is that this will help us masochists who still do want to play, have a reason to even bother attempting to do so.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 29, 2023, 12:24:17 PM
The root cause of Armageddon's approaching demise is because too many people forgot that this is supposed to be a game and not a replacement for actual authority or emotional satisfaction in real life.

This. Its a game. Just that.

Nobody is asking Wizards of the Coast to change their rules at our hometable, here.

We're just trying to find ways to better get everyone TO our table and enjoying their time.

I mean, you have one Producer on record of desiring that there be ten or less active players in "their" game. So good luck with that.

The greatest motivator for me wanting to play the game has always been knowing that people are playing and what they're playing. Hearing of ongoing exploits and of fun, existing characters is way more of a draw than historical cases. Being told about any of this is of course against the rules, lest we threaten the sacred ic/ooc separation that only staff players are allowed to fully circumvent.

Kill that sacred cow and serve its meat up on a platter and we might get some re-engagement. Show people what can and is being done in game, now. Let them know where they can go and who they can talk to to get in on the action.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 29, 2023, 12:51:17 PM
I mean, you have one Producer on record of desiring that there be ten or less active players in "their" game. So good luck with that.

Can you show me that quote please?

Quote from: Halaster on March 29, 2023, 01:44:15 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 29, 2023, 12:51:17 PM
I mean, you have one Producer on record of desiring that there be ten or less active players in "their" game. So good luck with that.

Can you show me that quote please?

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58875.msg1087227.html#msg1087227

Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 29, 2023, 02:19:01 PM

Quote from: Halaster on March 29, 2023, 01:44:15 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 29, 2023, 12:51:17 PM
I mean, you have one Producer on record of desiring that there be ten or less active players in "their" game. So good luck with that.

Can you show me that quote please?

https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,58875.msg1087227.html#msg1087227

So this?

Quote
I am not particularly focused on numbers.  They are nice to have, obviously.  I have played the game in time periods where lots of time it was sub-10 players and we would be lucky to see 20 on.  And loved it.  Because there was a lot out there I hadn't seen...

Taken in context it seems pretty obvious that he's saying he's played when there were 10 people on and enjoyed it.  And that high numbers aren't his focus.  That's an impressive leap to say he desires it.

I still don't understand what the issue is with a proposed system being opt-out for those who feel threatened in some way. Obviously people are having trouble finding other people to RP with and it is causing them to leave out of boredom and frustration. This is a major problem that needs fixing.

Because changing the game in drastic ways, to make it more like games that other people have already left for various reasons to come play here instead, is maybe not the smartest decision to make in a chain of consequences?

Because as other people have noted, those systems don't really help that much anyway since people:
- Just check them and log out
- Or only go to the places that are on the who list and ignore everywhere else

Because some people keep trying to push things over and over to change it to like how they want, instead of what other people are comfortable with?



Because the problem is not being able to see where people are OOC, the problem is low player count in cities? This is what is REALLY happening with players. And a lot of the reason people don't play in cities isn't just staff issues, it's OTHER PLAYERS.



Players who've apparently been playing for more than ten years. But openly advocate for cheating in plots, removing the rules, and giving newer players a bad impression - because we don't know if that person has had action taken against them and is disgruntled, or is someone who was previously considered a pillar of the community in a mafia kind of sense while being a corrupt piece of work with their friends.

Players that despite this, happily co-ordinate their plots over Discord with nobles or templars, right up to the point of getting their character made a red robe.

This stuff gets out, people talk, even when staff don't catch it, and people are afraid to pass it on. It's enough to slowly rot the game. Where do you think the aide players went? The people that make plots, maybe the people most needed of all for city RP?

A lot of people don't make forum posts, they get traumatised from the similarities to real abuse, from other players using Discord to groom people into their circles of corruption and implied threats once they find out what character someone is playing. People that just avoid MUDs entirely after that. I meet some of them playing other games. I have lots of friends too, but unlike some people, I deliberately try to keep the game separate, because I treasure the mystery and I don't want it to just feel like some abusive mafia.

Players acting like that.

Players killing their own game, that they claim to love.

Because there's no exit poll when people stop logging on - so no one was even knowing to be ale to listen to the people that already left without making any complaints (because MOST PEOPLE DO NOT MAKE COMPLAINTS THIS IS EXTREMELY RARE AND SHOULD NOT BE RELIED UPON), before any of the recent stuff - players driving off other players.

Because we rely too much on email, which only older people use outside formal contexts, and the website is like some ancient artifact from times past, dug up from underneath the ocean, that occasionally blinks an eye and screams unnatural sounds (I really respect those brave people who signed up to help with the webdev a LOT, it seems like such an awkward position to be put in when people can't be hired to help out with it)

The people that don't make much forum posts. The people that don't like to talk about things they've seen or heard other players doing, because they're scared of retaliation. The people that don't make reports. Because there's been MASSIVE COMPLACENCY on how bad the problem has been.

Because we keep ending up with people who sometimes seem like they don't really know what they are doing and miss basic things, which means they are missing bigger things too (producers should definitely do the mystery shopper thing occasionally since we don't have anything like an internal affairs to check up on people's ability to be in roles)

It's not fixable with game code changes. The game needs a culture shift away from IMs and DMs (I agree with the staff decision on this, but it needs to be for players too so new players aren't being manipulated by abusive people trying to find out who their character is and bringing them into their circles of corruption, it's literally grooming) -- and there needs to be temporary reports instead of forever BECAUSE PEOPLE NEED TO FEEL SAFER TO REPORT THINGS OR YOU END UP WITH NOT HAVING ANY IDEA WHAT PEOPLE ARE DOING), and shady companie (https://reveddit.com/v/discordapp/comments/11ihqq6)s like Discord (https://cadence.moe/blog/2020-06-06-why-you-shouldnt-trust-discord) . It needs to make people feel confident and safe to report stuff, not in messages being logged forever that eventually get leaked or seen by someone that gains a position of power they probably shouldn't have been given.

That is why no one wants to play in cities. Because a lot of the older players contribute a NET LOSS in terms of damage to the game, and haven't been helping but just making things worse. If people start focusing less on their groups and more on the game as a whole, things can still get better.

(https://i.imgur.com/7eTHHRc.png)

I still believe it's fixable, though. But this is not the way. This would help too (last time I repost it I swear :)) But I remember I suggested something like this before and I think a lot of stuff was just not taken as seriously or as important compared to other priorities at the time probably:

Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 25, 2023, 03:08:51 PMfor taverns, "mix"/"mingle":

You take a while to look around, assessing the crowd:(this takes a while, so people don't just walk in, check, then leave)
There's always people around, but it seems pretty busy right now. Though people say it was busier a few hours ago. (OOC: 4 player characters are or were here within the last 10 minutes, 6 during last 30 minutes, 9 this past Zalanthan day)
(while avoiding people on opt-out/in stealth)

Clearly we should ban everyone who started playing before 2019.

tiny rainbow, I have heard your idea, and just like you've heard mine and dislike them, I personally think your idea would accomplish absolutely nothing whatsoever, except for occasionally making people feel like they just missed out on RP. I made this thread to discuss ideas, and you have repeatedly presented yours. While I'm okay with you passionately nixing all the suggestions that I think would make any positive change at all, there's a point at which your objections stop being helpful and start repeatedly derailing the conversation. You've said your piece, we know how you feel, we know your idea. Nothing new can really be suggested or fine-tuned if you keep making the conversation all about how this will or won't ruin the game or how this game is better than that game. All I want is concrete solutions, and respectfully, your objections have been heard, and you're now just forcing the conversation away from those solutions and how they might be tailored to this game and this playerbase.

I'm not trying to tell you to get off the thread, but please stop using every opportunity to turn the conversation into something it was never meant to be.

EDIT: this is Beethoven. I meant to post on that account. same person

Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 28, 2023, 04:55:28 PM

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on March 28, 2023, 01:31:57 PMif I did know that there were 4 other people in public rooms not hidden in Allanak, I would probably be more likely to go

But as mentioned before, part of the problem is exactly that you would go, that you would go there, instead of anywhere else - you'd have got a false impression, and passed up other characters that can't participate in this system because as mentioned before and the examples given of people acting very differently when they know other players is around (it's the same issues around making staff visible).

That's a great idea. Where can only be used to see people in your local region. Double it and pass it on.

Quote from: tiny rainbow on March 28, 2023, 04:55:28 PM

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on March 28, 2023, 01:31:57 PMBefore any of this I would first suggest something intermediate and easy to implement - like a recruiting board for new characters, timezone info on clan pay when making a char, localization of characters when making a char, etc. More information given when planning out what to make and where to play.

At one point the Arm of the Dragon were advertising their playtimes on the IC rumor board, but I don't think that kind of info should be available OOC, it seemed silly because it was basically saying "Hi, Allanak is unmonitored outside these times, go wild". It's probably just better to keep selection blind so there's no OOC influence in decisions

there are 31 open clans, at least, not counting any player clans. There are 20 people logged on currently. I would like to put forward the notion that if a player, knowing that the Arm of the Dragon currently mostly plays from 6pm-9pm EST, changes their behavior drastically or 'goes nuts' when they think there aren't any players around... those aren't the players who should be playing this game. And it is a game. A roleplaying game. Based on a tabletop. People only act as trustworthy as they are allowed to be. Transparency breeds a positive, trusting community.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on March 29, 2023, 06:03:57 PM
Clearly we should ban everyone who started playing before 2019.

lol

Quote from: Malken on March 25, 2023, 02:10:36 PM
This is how they do it on Harshlands:
...
> notify (This returns "Notifyee is online")
> notify back (This returns "Notifyee is online" to the notifier)
> notify area (This returns your sdesc and room to the notifier)

Hey, nobody discussed this at all. Obviously it's a much more radical change than expanding who. Intriguing, though.

Could be abused, but less so than Discord DMs.

Mansa's refinement is cool. The tavern only option is cool. Mudmail is cool. I think I'm just in the camp of "do things" rather than not.

Way voicemail...  Hear me out.

contact homeboy
You feel your homeboy's mind, but it's sluggish.
Psi Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub?  It's crazy bro!
You feel like your message was received by their mind

Homeboy logs in
You feel thoughts awaiting your attention.
PSI
TheBroDude sent Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub? It's crazy bro!"

Quote from: Pariah on March 30, 2023, 04:20:03 PM
Way voicemail...  Hear me out.

contact homeboy
You feel your homeboy's mind, but it's sluggish.
Psi Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub?  It's crazy bro!
You feel like your message was received by their mind

Homeboy logs in
You feel thoughts awaiting your attention.
PSI
TheBroDude sent Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub? It's crazy bro!"

Something along these lines has been suggested numerous times over the years, and it's always been shot down.  Maybe this time will be different.

Quote from: Synthesis on March 30, 2023, 04:34:29 PM

Quote from: Pariah on March 30, 2023, 04:20:03 PM
Way voicemail...  Hear me out.

contact homeboy
You feel your homeboy's mind, but it's sluggish.
Psi Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub?  It's crazy bro!
You feel like your message was received by their mind

Homeboy logs in
You feel thoughts awaiting your attention.
PSI
TheBroDude sent Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub? It's crazy bro!"

Something along these lines has been suggested numerous times over the years, and it's always been shot down.  Maybe this time will be different.

The only objections I've heard that I agreed with are:
  1). It might provide confirmation that Amos is not online instead of just barriered up and might lead to OOC hijinks.
  2).  Sometimes you don't want to get messages from certain people, and therefore when you are online, you are actively barriering up to avoid them.  "Hello, this is Lord Templar Amos. Contact me withing three weeks or I will start exacting my displeasure upon your underlings.".
  3) Might especially suck for Merchant PCs, "Hey, where's my Horror Armor?!  I've been asking for my order for a month, twice a week.  I'm complaining to your boss and Lord Templar Amos for ignoring me, next."
  4) It removes the ability to overhear or Way-drop in on such messages and can move anything shared this way out of IG interactions. "Remember: it goes down next week.  And the target is Drucella this time.  The tressy-tressed man with tresses."

#4 is the one that seems the hardest to swallow.  There might be other objections, but I tend to think the positives outweigh those negatives. Particularly when focusing on retention and n00b engagement.

I am all for this 'leave a message ability' Keeping in mind people's personal time and desire to RP this would help a lot of PC's out in leadership rolls with recruiting and work as well.

Quote from: Seeker on March 30, 2023, 05:25:51 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on March 30, 2023, 04:34:29 PM

Quote from: Pariah on March 30, 2023, 04:20:03 PM
Way voicemail...  Hear me out.

contact homeboy
You feel your homeboy's mind, but it's sluggish.
Psi Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub?  It's crazy bro!
You feel like your message was received by their mind

Homeboy logs in
You feel thoughts awaiting your attention.
PSI
TheBroDude sent Hey bro, you hear they killed Gizzard from down at the pub? It's crazy bro!"

Something along these lines has been suggested numerous times over the years, and it's always been shot down.  Maybe this time will be different.

The only objections I've heard that I agreed with are:
  1). It might provide confirmation that Amos is not online instead of just barriered up and might lead to OOC hijinks.
  2).  Sometimes you don't want to get messages from certain people, and therefore when you are online, you are actively barriering up to avoid them.  "Hello, this is Lord Templar Amos. Contact me withing three weeks or I will start exacting my displeasure upon your underlings.".
  3) Might especially suck for Merchant PCs, "Hey, where's my Horror Armor?!  I've been asking for my order for a month, twice a week.  I'm complaining to your boss and Lord Templar Amos for ignoring me, next."
  4) It removes the ability to overhear or Way-drop in on such messages and can move anything shared this way out of IG interactions. "Remember: it goes down next week.  And the target is Drucella this time.  The tressy-tressed man with tresses."

#4 is the one that seems the hardest to swallow.  There might be other objections, but I tend to think the positives outweigh those negatives. Particularly when focusing on retention and n00b engagement.

This is what I mean by acknowledging downsides and being intellectually honest on things.  This is an odd issue for me.  I like interaction.  I like playing with pretty much anyone (just about any roleplayer in arm has the potential to suddenly be kickass in your mind as you play with them more).  But I also like immersion.  I like having to take actions to find people who may not want to be found.  I like when there are strains on communication that have to be worked through, because they create situations that have to be problem-solved in game.  The search for people was always an immersive experience for me.  So was the avoidance of being found.

No changes that we make will be purely beneficial.  Not a one of them.  Weighing out pros and cons via each player's self-customized priority list is the challenge of creating meaningful changes.  Most of the time, I end up resistant to change just because I don't observe a necessary amount of inspection of those cons, or sometimes even a flat-out denial that the cons are there, which only makes me more worried for what they will actually be.

I think the who modification with a toggle is probably the 'safest'.  Direct notifications seem preeeeetty easily counterweighted with cons.  And I'm still of the firm belief that players taking the onus that 'I want interaction' = wait in interaction areas is still best, because it's a culture shift that naturally consolidates rather than consolidation under direction/closure, and it's a spillover of proximity that results in more natural parallels and conflicts between people's paths.  People just like to be spread out doing their own thing too much.  I mean...sure, it's safer to be just doing your own thing, distant from power structures that aren't yours, etc, but it ain't really helping anyone or even yourself in finding non-engineered, natural interaction, either.

- remove the line "there are X players, other than yourself" from who output.

- implement something like the suggestion above from Mansa(?): if a character is in a "hotspot" area (room with a Tavern flag?) and they "toggle whovis on", then "who" will include them in the total number for that area, e.g., "There are X players whovisible in the Gaj."

- maybe use words rather than precise numbers: there are no|a few|many|a whole heckuva lot players whovisible in the Gaj.

- only allow characters who have under X hours played to see this information (where X is something suitable for getting your new character connected to a job. I dunno, 40 hours?) <b>This solves a lot of worries about cheating. It is a tool for new characters to make connections after chargen. That's that.</b>

- at chargen before point allow someone to see a more detailed "who" output that lists number of players in each of the main areas, along with who is staffing that area, e.g.:

There are 7 players online in the Northern Area - Usiku (admin), Caverin, Enthemu
(Utep Sun Legions, Tuluki Templars, Tuluki Noble Houses, Bards of the Poets Circle,Akai Sjir). If feeling fancy, maybe even: over the past week there have been X players in the Northern Area... If feeling *really* fancy: over the past week there have been X players in the Northern Area, 40% of whom are EST; 40% CST; 40% PST; 40% "European"; 20% that guy in Hawaii.

This last would be a tool for new players to decide where to point.

Maybe close some of all these clans. It's a ridiculous amount. Ruins the game, frankly.

Quote from: Yelinak on March 30, 2023, 11:25:55 PM
Maybe close some of all these clans. It's a ridiculous amount. Ruins the game, frankly.

I've pointed this out a few times but the idea of people not being able to play the clan they like seems to cause a fair bit of upset. The game world is very very clearly designed for 50~ players, rather than 20 on a good day on on-peak. Consolidation is the only way you're going to manage to keep the game feeling 'alive', but I dont see it happening.

QuoteI've pointed this out a few times but the idea of people not being able to play the clan they like seems to cause a fair bit of upset. The game world is very very clearly designed for 50~ players, rather than 20 on a good day on on-peak. Consolidation is the only way you're going to manage to keep the game feeling 'alive', but I dont see it happening.

The game had only a few less clans back when prime-time was usually between 25-30 players.  The difference was that they were mostly city-centric (i.e. We have a lot more tribal/wilderness groups than then).  And being an indie was a lot harder, due to storage space issues and a whole lot more randomness and big baddies in the wilds.  So there was a LOT more variety in terms of 'I'm a warrior, who do I wanna fight for?' within the city, and whole lot less of 'I don't like cities, I'm just gonna avoid 'em'.

I am always a proponent for people being able to choose as much as is practical with an online survivalist rpg.  But I still think the problem is that we moved more opportunity to roles that more based on personal goals than clan-centered ones.

Quote from: Yelinak on March 30, 2023, 11:25:55 PM
Maybe close some of all these clans. It's a ridiculous amount. Ruins the game, frankly.

Quote from: Kavrick on April 01, 2023, 09:24:52 AM

Quote from: Yelinak on March 30, 2023, 11:25:55 PM
Maybe close some of all these clans. It's a ridiculous amount. Ruins the game, frankly.

I've pointed this out a few times but the idea of people not being able to play the clan they like seems to cause a fair bit of upset. The game world is very very clearly designed for 50~ players, rather than 20 on a good day on on-peak. Consolidation is the only way you're going to manage to keep the game feeling 'alive', but I dont see it happening.

"More choice" isn't the problem in my opinion. I don't think it would consolidate anyone to close things, because the game world is so huge; at most it could make some regions empty of PCs from time to time.

I don't think shrinking the game world is the solution, either, as that's just cutting away parts around the problem.

There isn't any reason to play in centers of civilization, where PCs would typically gather and interact. When there is - like the RPT today - people from literally all over the game world show up. 20~ PCs in and out of a bar over the course of a few RL hours. There's obviously a desire by players to have reasons to congregate.

Cities need to provide mechanical perks for players choosing to be there. Re: Allanak specifically, I still really think there's a need for a central, 'safe' ish spot for rinth/city/outdoors to meet, a la the Den; it needs to be reachable without over-concern of violence, and 'safe' inside because of in-game reasons and motivations that keep players policing players from doing anything there. It also needs to be a fixture.

Actually, I'm going to put in that request again.

I believe DeseretT mentioned that only 2 or 3 people came to the RPT in Allanak, which took place around the same time as this one. Yet ALOT of people went to the RPT in Luir's.

This goes to show the disparity of clans and the general malaise with city play RN. I'm willing to bet most of the Luir's folk were tribals or indies, which is where most of the playing population is right now.

Quote from: Tranquil on April 01, 2023, 07:49:47 PM
I believe DeseretT mentioned that only 2 or 3 people came to the RPT in Allanak, which took place around the same time as this one. Yet ALOT of people went to the RPT in Luir's.

This goes to show the disparity of clans and the general malaise with city play RN. I'm willing to bet most of the Luir's folk were tribals or indies, which is where most of the playing population is right now.

I can only talk of my personal experience but I think Luir's is just overall a much more desired location. It's a spot that pretty much welcomed everyone. From northies, to southies to tribals and even Thryzn, you don't have to worry too much about prejudices, at least not to the same degree as going to allanak.

Also I kinda just prefer Luir's in every way. It's more condensed, easier to get around in. The markets and bazaar in allanak have been a headache for me ever since I started playing. Also the "vibe" as kids these days say is much nicer. Being in the gaj and seeing the Nth echo about piss/shit/vomit/violence is appropriate, but not my favourite thing. Storms end in comparison has a nice spice lounge, balcony and the fancy tribal room which is a personal favourite of mine.

At least from my personal opinion and subjective taste, Luir's just kinda wins in every category.

Quote from: Kavrick on April 02, 2023, 03:04:18 AM
[Welcoming, clean, great lounge and balcony view]

I feel like I just read a TripAdvisor review.  10/10 post.

*Edit typo

That's definitely one of the draws to Luir's for me as well, Kavrick. Not only do I hate being in Allanak for the general headache of "I wonder who is going to fuck with me out of the blue today and make life a hassle" but also the disgusting air about the place. I admit, I'm a squeamish germaphobe and the overwhelming atmosphere of shit/piss/puke in Nak - and especially the Gaj - is outright nausea inducing. The Den wasn't the cleanest place but it didn't have an oppressively disgusting miasma about it, either. Luir's, on the other hand, is positively a palatial resort town in comparison.

I don't know where I was going with this other than I agree with Kavrick and maybe people need to get in the habit of using Red's or something.

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on April 01, 2023, 07:47:15 PM

Quote from: Yelinak on March 30, 2023, 11:25:55 PM
Maybe close some of all these clans. It's a ridiculous amount. Ruins the game, frankly.

Quote from: Kavrick on April 01, 2023, 09:24:52 AM

Quote from: Yelinak on March 30, 2023, 11:25:55 PM
Maybe close some of all these clans. It's a ridiculous amount. Ruins the game, frankly.

I've pointed this out a few times but the idea of people not being able to play the clan they like seems to cause a fair bit of upset. The game world is very very clearly designed for 50~ players, rather than 20 on a good day on on-peak. Consolidation is the only way you're going to manage to keep the game feeling 'alive', but I dont see it happening.

"More choice" isn't the problem in my opinion. I don't think it would consolidate anyone to close things, because the game world is so huge; at most it could make some regions empty of PCs from time to time.

I don't think shrinking the game world is the solution, either, as that's just cutting away parts around the problem.

There isn't any reason to play in centers of civilization, where PCs would typically gather and interact. When there is - like the RPT today - people from literally all over the game world show up. 20~ PCs in and out of a bar over the course of a few RL hours. There's obviously a desire by players to have reasons to congregate.

Cities need to provide mechanical perks for players choosing to be there. Re: Allanak specifically, I still really think there's a need for a central, 'safe' ish spot for rinth/city/outdoors to meet, a la the Den; it needs to be reachable without over-concern of violence, and 'safe' inside because of in-game reasons and motivations that keep players policing players from doing anything there. It also needs to be a fixture.

Actually, I'm going to put in that request again.

There's gotta be something to make Nak more appealing to play in to get people to play there. Shutting things down would just make me play in whatever is open that still isn't Nak.

This is pretty complex and above my pay grade. In the mean time, I will watch for players in bars in the Late at Night hour and animate, prioritizing solo idlers.  Be the change and all.  Let's collectively keep an eye on the clock and make a point to find an IC reason to hit the bars at night.   

Allanak has a special meeting place that crosses castes that nobody uses.  Morning devotions!  We could also try to get that going as a habit and meeting place since Nak has so many bars.  Thoughts?

Quote from: Kaathe on April 02, 2023, 01:11:28 PM
This is pretty complex and above my pay grade. In the mean time, I will watch for players in bars in the Late at Night hour and animate, prioritizing solo idlers.  Be the change and all.  Let's collectively keep an eye on the clock and make a point to find an IC reason to hit the bars at night.   

Allanak has a special meeting place that crosses castes that nobody uses.  Morning devotions!  We could also try to get that going as a habit and meeting place since Nak has so many bars.  Thoughts?

I think allanak has a lot of potential but suffers a little from people not really wanting to do solo rp. Like you could 100% go to morning devotions, but when someone sees that no one else does it, not even Arm of the dragon characters, it's hard to want to do it yourself.

I do think one thing that would be good for drawing people together, and it's been brought up before but, public sparring pits. People can rp taking bets and the like, and would draw people away from just sparring in their compounds, because compound sitting is a bit of a problem.

I personally attempted to campaign for things within Allanak during my time playing there last, that I saw needed changes to make it more of a 'people attraction'. 

I repeatedly suggested creating a public fighting pit in Allanak, and kept getting told 'there is one in Yaroch'.
Which yes, there is, but no one ever uses it unless it is for a Festival, and next to no one ever uses Yaroch apart from pitstops when hunting/grebbing.  More to the point, no one clanned, such as the Talons/Byn etc would be allowed to just, take off to Yaroch for the night to go and sit in the 'fight club pub'.  But this fell on deaf ears. 

Part of what made the Den attractive was the fact you could spar upon the stage, it made it a social place where people could punch each other.  The majority of the player base tends to lean more toward combat orientated roles because there is more selection to merge skills around with them, so everyone has a little basic understanding of weapon skills, which made the idea of a fighting pit in Allanak all the more attractive to me to encourage activity in the city.  Hopefully staff will see this keep cropping up and rectify it in the future.

Then there is Red's, which everyone complains isn't really utilized, again, something I attempted to campaign for was to have more soliders patrolling, because, at night there is -none- sometimes.  Or one off duty.  Part of the reason why people do not use Red's is because it is a pk hotspot, everyone knows it, because there are so many blindspots, and so little in the way of guards.  Yet people then pout that nobles/aide/templars/GMH's do not go there often, if at all.  Again, these pleads fell to nothing, I was instead told 'there are lots of virtual people that come and go there that haven't been killed'.   

Quote from: Kestria on April 02, 2023, 01:50:43 PM
I personally attempted to campaign for things within Allanak during my time playing there last, that I saw needed changes to make it more of a 'people attraction'. 

I repeatedly suggested creating a public fighting pit in Allanak, and kept getting told 'there is one in Yaroch'.
Which yes, there is, but no one ever uses it unless it is for a Festival, and next to no one ever uses Yaroch apart from pitstops when hunting/grebbing.  More to the point, no one clanned, such as the Talons/Byn etc would be allowed to just, take off to Yaroch for the night to go and sit in the 'fight club pub'.  But this fell on deaf ears. 

Part of what made the Den attractive was the fact you could spar upon the stage, it made it a social place where people could punch each other.  The majority of the player base tends to lean more toward combat orientated roles because there is more selection to merge skills around with them, so everyone has a little basic understanding of weapon skills, which made the idea of a fighting pit in Allanak all the more attractive to me to encourage activity in the city.  Hopefully staff will see this keep cropping up and rectify it in the future.

Then there is Red's, which everyone complains isn't really utilized, again, something I attempted to campaign for was to have more soliders patrolling, because, at night there is -none- sometimes.  Or one off duty.  Part of the reason why people do not use Red's is because it is a pk hotspot, everyone knows it, because there are so many blindspots, and so little in the way of guards.  Yet people then pout that nobles/aide/templars/GMH's do not go there often, if at all.  Again, these pleads fell to nothing, I was instead told 'there are lots of virtual people that come and go there that haven't been killed'.

This is something I seen IG and put some serious love and hard work into helping out how I could IC. Thank you!!!!

Quote from: Kestria on April 02, 2023, 01:50:43 PM
I personally attempted to campaign for things within Allanak during my time playing there last, that I saw needed changes to make it more of a 'people attraction'. 

I repeatedly suggested creating a public fighting pit in Allanak, and kept getting told 'there is one in Yaroch'.
Which yes, there is, but no one ever uses it unless it is for a Festival, and next to no one ever uses Yaroch apart from pitstops when hunting/grebbing.  More to the point, no one clanned, such as the Talons/Byn etc would be allowed to just, take off to Yaroch for the night to go and sit in the 'fight club pub'.  But this fell on deaf ears. 

Part of what made the Den attractive was the fact you could spar upon the stage, it made it a social place where people could punch each other.  The majority of the player base tends to lean more toward combat orientated roles because there is more selection to merge skills around with them, so everyone has a little basic understanding of weapon skills, which made the idea of a fighting pit in Allanak all the more attractive to me to encourage activity in the city.  Hopefully staff will see this keep cropping up and rectify it in the future.

Then there is Red's, which everyone complains isn't really utilized, again, something I attempted to campaign for was to have more soliders patrolling, because, at night there is -none- sometimes.  Or one off duty.  Part of the reason why people do not use Red's is because it is a pk hotspot, everyone knows it, because there are so many blindspots, and so little in the way of guards.  Yet people then pout that nobles/aide/templars/GMH's do not go there often, if at all.  Again, these pleads fell to nothing, I was instead told 'there are lots of virtual people that come and go there that haven't been killed'.

There's some strange taboo with sparring pits that I don't understand. They're a great way to bring people together but they always have strange rules and allowances. I had been told in the past, even when the sole combat member of a clan, that I could not bring outsiders into the sparring pit to train. I don't understand the purpose for the constraints on sparring pits.

Quote from: Kavrick on April 02, 2023, 02:16:46 PM
There's some strange taboo with sparring pits that I don't understand. They're a great way to bring people together but they always have strange rules and allowances. I had been told in the past, even when the sole combat member of a clan, that I could not bring outsiders into the sparring pit to train. I don't understand the purpose for the constraints on sparring pits.

Part of this taboo is PC safety - Clanned NPCs can act strangely when a clanned and non-clan PC engage in combat within their aggro radius. This is particularly true of crimcode-enabled clans, and to a lesser extent crimcode-enabled PCs. When I was in the AOD it was lethally dangerous to bring non-clanned PCs in to our barracks, and I was always leery of sparring others in their estates lest they get stomped by half-giants immediately after stepping outside.

Quote from: Seeker on March 30, 2023, 05:25:51 PM
The only objections I've heard that I agreed with are:
  1). It might provide confirmation that Amos is not online instead of just barriered up and might lead to OOC hijinks.

My idea of how a PVM would work is that the contacter wouldn't notice anything different at all - they send their psi message, and they just don't get a reply right away (which can also be realistic in-game play).  If people don't like that, tie it in to the gone code and/or put in an echo that the recipient seems to be preoccupied at the moment or something to that effect as an OOC signal that they're offline or even idling too long (is there one built into the game already?) or linkdead which would help mitigate the OOC hijinks problem.

Quote2).  Sometimes you don't want to get messages from certain people, and therefore when you are online, you are actively barriering up to avoid them.  "Hello, this is Lord Templar Amos. Contact me withing three weeks or I will start exacting my displeasure upon your underlings.".

Perhaps it could be coded in to be able to set your PVM have a toggleable barrier function, and then if someone tries to contact you it would still run a barrier/contact challenge to see if they get through?

Quote3) Might especially suck for Merchant PCs, "Hey, where's my Horror Armor?!  I've been asking for my order for a month, twice a week.  I'm complaining to your boss and Lord Templar Amos for ignoring me, next."

Like IRL VM, could be coded in to be able to set a limit on how many way messages it stores?  Or have them auto expire after a certain amount of time, or some other limitation?

Quote4) It removes the ability to overhear or Way-drop in on such messages and can move anything shared this way out of IG interactions. "Remember: it goes down next week.  And the target is Drucella this time.  The tressy-tressed man with tresses."

Perhaps a new Psion ability could be put in for them to be able to spy on people's PVM's, much like the bios?  Some limitations could be put on this if it's thought to be too strong or inappropriate.

---

I really want to see this finally put in - I really think it would help facilitate gameplay and new player retention, but especially so for the off-peakers.

  Considering everything I have learned and the opinions expressed I will work on being one of the more involved players. I am normally one of the loner players that don't pull the most RP into the community. That being so, I have decided to revise how I write my backgrounds to push me towards the RP staff are tied in with.

Looking forward to what comes next. Still have a lot to learn.