Armageddon General Discussion Board

A facewrapped figure walks into the room.  You immediately pin them as female... but wait, they lower their facewrap to reveal stubble and sharp ears.  It was a breed the whole time.

Should facewrapped figures still show their gender?

Why did you gender your character in the first place?

Who cares?

Are they hot?

Until I can choose a they/their neutral gender codedly for my androgynous pc concepts (which I am not currently playing due to its lack), I am fine with things as they stand. Until you can have a neutral gender codedly, I think it is fine to assume that you can tell if it is male or female, because codedly you cannot have a pc which you cannot tell the gender of by looking in ANY fashion. If/when, a neutral gender were introduced, I would be on board to remove the male/female part from sdesc in facewraps etc.

(http://i.imgur.com/Vrk8Sxf.png)

They don't know either

Facewrap != bandana

(http://i.imgur.com/VufGuCN.jpg)

While that's true, Nakki fashion (and much armor) is notoriously tight and body fitting, which would thus in theory reveal the torso shape of the wearer. Just sayin'.

Why assume even if you -can- see their face, if we're going down this route?

Just because they're wearing a facewrap doesn't mean there aren't other factors that give away sex. If someone is bundled up to the point where it's impossible to tell but the code still tells you male/female, it's your responsibility to RP your PC's uncertainty.

I don't think either option perfectly works, but of the two, I'd rather keep the male/female thing for facewraps. The wraps themselves don't really obscure the figure like a closed cloak with a raised hood does, and it helps from things getting too confusing with multiple people with facewraps on. Part of why I also like the distinction between male and female voices.

Rather than do away with it altogether, if any changes are to be made, I'd say put in an optional flag at chargen. Well, two flags. Androgynous appearance/voice, that can be set if you want your PC's gender/sex to be ambiguous when wearing certain visually obscuring items that still do show male/female, or when they're talking in the dark. Rather than pretend there's never any discernible difference, I'd much prefer an option that allows ambiguity if it makes sense for that character.

Quote from: bardlyone on December 14, 2016, 10:10:45 PM
While that's true, Nakki fashion (and much armor) is notoriously tight and body fitting, which would thus in theory reveal the torso shape of the wearer. Just sayin'.

hips don't lie

Quote from: Pretentious on December 14, 2016, 10:12:38 PM
Rather than do away with it altogether, if any changes are to be made, I'd say put in an optional flag at chargen. Well, two flags. Androgynous appearance/voice, that can be set if you want your PC's gender/sex to be ambiguous when wearing certain visually obscuring items that still do show male/female, or when they're talking in the dark. Rather than pretend there's never any discernible difference, I'd much prefer an option that allows ambiguity if it makes sense for that character.

Sorta the same as the half-elf code works now, where you pick your race (in this case gender) codedly, and then your appearance (a. male b. female c. neutral)? I could get down with that, hard.

Don't robes show sex too? I find that more logically objectionable to facewraps outting the sex of the wearer since they should actually be obscuring the lines of the wearer.

Also it's 2016, why the fuck do we not have helms that hide sdesc?

If a mdesc allows for it, and there is appropriate attire, I ignore the gender tag. I don't know if we should change it, or not, but I voted no. If the reality of the roleplayed situation is that you're so covered up, no one can tell what gender you are, you hipless, small bosomed, bony urchin, it doesn't really matter to the person who uses the coded fact that information about your gender is given to them.

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/a7/1f/ce/a71fceaee18a88455ad9aa56d4d7ad21.jpg)
The blond male human is pictured above.

Wrap this up in sandcloth, and question your sexuality. Thankfully, the code will save you from thinking too hard.

Edited to add: You know, it might not be fair to use a Balkan angel as an example.

you tricked me into this thread

Quote from: bardlyone on December 14, 2016, 10:17:02 PM
Sorta the same as the half-elf code works now, where you pick your race (in this case gender) codedly, and then your appearance (a. male b. female c. neutral)? I could get down with that, hard.

Not quite what I had in mind. I was thinking that if you set your voice to ambiguous/androgynous, even if you're clearly male or female visually, in the dark or in a sandstorm, your voice wouldn't give it away. Or if you set your physical build to that, then when you're wearing something like a facewrap or a veil, then you're similarly ambiguous with regards to sex. I like the idea of being able to fine tune certain things. Like, for instance, a character who is clearly male from a physical standpoint, but perhaps has a feminine or ambiguous voice? So that they could be 'the tall male in a bright orange facewrap'  (or however that shows up), but their voice doesn't give away in the dark.

(There's also the issue of  too many options making things too complicated at chargen and frustrating/confusing new players.)

As far as I know, there's nothing about the code that necessitates that your PC's sdesc and coded gender match their biological sex (IC). You could set their gender to female, have 'woman' at the end of their sdesc, and still have them be biologically male, or something less binary, and represent it through RP. I've actually seen something like that in game.

I don't think we need to have coded gender and sex. Just (apparent) gender is enough - male, female, ambiguous. And then the PC can have the appropriate sdesc for their mdesc, and then if biological sex ever becomes relevant, they can RP it out as necessary.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 14, 2016, 10:24:41 PM
Don't robes show sex too? I find that more logically objectionable to facewraps outting the sex of the wearer since they should actually be obscuring the lines of the wearer.

I think robes with hoods up obscure sex. They just show 'the <something> figure in the <something> cloak/robes'.

Quote from: Raptor_Dan on December 14, 2016, 11:21:17 PM
If a mdesc allows for it, and there is appropriate attire, I ignore the gender tag. I don't know if we should change it, or not, but I voted no. If the reality of the roleplayed situation is that you're so covered up, no one can tell what gender you are, you hipless, small bosomed, bony urchin, it doesn't really matter to the person who uses the coded fact that information about your gender is given to them.

This. The code's never going to be able to perfectly represent every situation, so we're still going to have to make judgments on if  we should be able to know something about a PC even if we can codedly gather the information.

We're actually not that good at determining sex based on physical silhouettes. We're much better at determining sex (or really gender) based on presentation, body-language, voice and clothing.

You can totally submit a special application to have the gender pronouns removed for a more neutral look. I think it's fine as it currently is, however, as if you're distinctly a female, or distinctly a male, your body shape will likely give away your gender. Again, though, special application if you don't want that.

This is basically a "special app" situation that you want as a normal option.

There have been plenty of PCs in game who were androgynous, or otherwise gender neutral. Some people play along, others dont. Same with every other 1/10000 situation in the game. It's 2016, we are assuming gender because this is a 20 year old game and modern society hasn't caught up with these changes.

So. No. The game handles this as well as it can. If you play "a chick with a dick", your PC is not normal. If you are SO androgynous that people can't tell... be okay with it. Maybe Zalanthan ears can detect things RL people cant.

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m39vat0vdB1r73iu8o1_1280.jpg)
She is carrying: Nothing you can see.
You are Casey Legler, Male Model of Ford Models

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-wIFg72_jcdY/UTcyf7i7n8I/AAAAAAAACbM/yQoK6m97B8s/s1600/Alexander+Bekker+(2).jpg)
He is carrying: Nothing you can see.
You are Alexander Bekker

I think it's very ironic that the first place your mind jumps is 'chick with a dick'. I can keep finding images of examples of people who are simply so different from their apparent gender it's unreal. But I would think simple androgyny where you can't tell on a glance would be much more common in Zalanthas. But yes, so long as people who look at Casey and see 'she is carrying nothing' and don't read the mdesc are still plenty able to think mistakenly that no, no, she is apparently female, because code line here, I have no interest in playing that out. Because there are a NUMBER of players who have posted to say over the years that they don't read descriptions. 

When are we going to have xe as a coded pronoun?

Having to identify as either gender shouldn't be forced upon a player and should be hand waved for the same reason IG sexism/skin colorism/homophobia is. I play this game to escape the real world and it's immersion breaking constantly having it's prejudices shoved down my throat.

Quote from: bardlyone on December 14, 2016, 10:17:02 PM

Quote from: Pretentious on December 14, 2016, 10:12:38 PM
Rather than do away with it altogether, if any changes are to be made, I'd say put in an optional flag at chargen. Well, two flags. Androgynous appearance/voice, that can be set if you want your PC's gender/sex to be ambiguous when wearing certain visually obscuring items that still do show male/female, or when they're talking in the dark. Rather than pretend there's never any discernible difference, I'd much prefer an option that allows ambiguity if it makes sense for that character.

Sorta the same as the half-elf code works now, where you pick your race (in this case gender) codedly, and then your appearance (a. male b. female c. neutral)? I could get down with that, hard.

This would be tight.

Quote from: Lutagar on December 15, 2016, 03:00:15 AM
When are we going to have xe as a coded pronoun?

Having to identify as either gender shouldn't be forced upon a player and should be hand waved for the same reason IG sexism/skin colorism/homophobia is. I play this game to escape the real world and it's immersion breaking constantly having it's prejudices shoved down my throat.

By the same token, I shouldn't have to have the reality of life shoved down my throat in the game. Yes, there are gay characters. Yes, there are gender neutral characters. Yes, there are different colored characters. Just like in real life. I get that. Stop forcing it on me all the time, I play this game to escape the real world and it's immersion breaking constantly having its political correctness shoved down my throat.

(I don't actually adhere to this line of reasoning, I'm simply spitting back to you the same thing you're trying to impose on me, from the other side of things. Goose, gander, and so on.)

In addition - "they" and "their" indicate plural. If you are twins, or multiple personalities, it fits. If you are not twins, or multiple personalities, it doesn't fit. If you want to play gender neutral, then use a gender neutral pronoun: it. And possessive pronoun its. And contracted "it is" to it's.

If you're not him or her, you're it.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 15, 2016, 07:49:44 AM
If you're not him or her, you're it.

Somehow that feels more strange than 'they'. If I saw 'it', I'd immediately assume the person is a gith or mantis in disguise.

I once read an interactive novel that used 'ze' (for gender neutral he / she) and 'hir' for gender neutral his / her. There were some other terms that I don't remember, but I remember that they were quite well done.

Then again, some players might find them annoying. I played a gender neutral character way back in the day and got player complaints for using 'they'.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 15, 2016, 07:49:44 AM
In addition - "they" and "their" indicate plural. If you are twins, or multiple personalities, it fits. If you are not twins, or multiple personalities, it doesn't fit. If you want to play gender neutral, then use a gender neutral pronoun: it. And possessive pronoun its. And contracted "it is" to it's.

If you're not him or her, you're it.

I'll just leave this here:

Quote
Additionally, the practical reason that people often use this form of words is if you are referring to someone of an unknown gender, to use he, him, his, etc. is nowadays considered sexist (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/explore/the-language-of-gender). Using them, they, or their is a way to avoid making an assumption of gender as there is no gender explicit in these pronouns. Find out more about gender-neutral language (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/explore/the-language-of-gender). Second, people prefer not to use he or she, him or her, etc. because they are long-winded (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/long-winded) and can be distracting, especially if they have to be repeated several times in the same sentence or paragraph.Is it grammatically correct?Despite objections, there is a trend to use 'singular they'. In fact, it is historically long established. It goes back at least to the 16^th century, and writers such as Shakespeare, Sidney, Byron, and Ruskin used it:
There's not a man I meet but doth salute me
As if I were their well-acquainted friend (Shakespeare's The Comedy of Errors)

Source: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/using-they-and-them-in-the-singular (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/using-they-and-them-in-the-singular)


Not only is it not a modern phenomenon to use they/their to refer to someone whose gender you cannot readily discern (it refers to a thing, not a person), there is a centuries-long history of it. Additionally, I believe that I will take Oxford dictionary's view on grammar as the correct one, since they are also a venerable source with a respected place in helping establish both the shape of English as it evolves, and also helping lay out the meaning of the individual words in it.

"It" is a descriptor used for inanimate objects. If you can't see how refering to gender neutral characters as "it" is derogatory then I don't know what to say you.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 15, 2016, 07:49:44 AMBy the same token, I shouldn't have to have the reality of life shoved down my throat in the game. Yes, there are gay characters. Yes, there are gender neutral characters. Yes, there are different colored characters. Just like in real life. I get that. Stop forcing it on me all the time, I play this game to escape the real world and it's immersion breaking constantly having its political correctness shoved down my throat.

(http://i.imgur.com/iWKad22r.jpg)

I love my LGBTQ, but I don't know if coding the desired amount of identities is gonna happen. There are characters in game right now that do well with their emotes and presentation without it and I'm with Dan in that if I see an androgynous character in game, I treat them as such.l until they reveal what they identify as or my character cares enough to ask.

And Lut. It is offensive in real life. It might also be offensive in game. Bring the conflict of being referred to in such a manner should someone use it in dialogue in game. Kill em.

Quote from: Lutagar on December 15, 2016, 08:13:43 AM
"It" is a descriptor used for inanimate objects. If you can't see how refering to gender neutral characters as "it" is derogatory then I don't know what to say you.

Because grammar. Singular personal (and possessive) pronouns: him, her, he, she, his, hers, it, its. "They" and "their"  are not singular personal (and possessive) pronouns. As the oxford dictionary states - they are USED that way - but their use doesn't make it a rule. It makes it an exception to the rule.

I'm not asking for a shitload of gender identities to be put in game. I'm asking that maybe you don't see 'he/she' etc in all emotes, when they don't necessarily look male or female specifically. I'm suggesting a 3rd option which is neutral. Not for all other possible options (of which there are many). I think that a 3rd option would be a fine umbrella for all other possible nonbinary options to play under, simply by removing the he/she from all targeting and looks and assessing. I think putting in a load of other options would be extraneous and unnecessary, but that the ability to be free of the gendered pronouns for the purposes of someone who does not always readily fit with one... makes a lot of sense. That's why I thought it would be interesting if it was done the way a half-elf's stuff is, though I'd be happy to just see [Choose your gender M/F become M/F/N] and then they/their/them replace the gendered pronouns in current use. That is flexible and simple.

Quote from: bardlyone on December 15, 2016, 08:45:13 AM
I'm not asking for a shitload of gender identities to be put in game. I'm asking that maybe you don't see 'he/she' etc in all emotes, when they don't necessarily look male or female specifically. I'm suggesting a 3rd option which is neutral. Not for all other possible options (of which there are many). I think that a 3rd option would be a fine umbrella for all other possible nonbinary options to play under, simply by removing the he/she from all targeting and looks and assessing. I think putting in a load of other options would be extraneous and unnecessary, but that the ability to be free of the gendered pronouns for the purposes of someone who does not always readily fit with one... makes a lot of sense. That's why I thought it would be interesting if it was done the way a half-elf's stuff is, though I'd be happy to just see [Choose your gender M/F become M/F/N] and then they/their/them replace the gendered pronouns in current use. That is flexible and simple.

Currently the game doesn't provide for gender neutral. You can be either male or female. In addition, I don't think "gender neutral" is even a thing. Neutral would imply the LACK of male combined with the LACK of female. Neither male nor female. If a character wants to possess features of both, then they are not neutral. They're something else. Androgynous I believe would be the term, and both him/her he/she are applicable at any time. A character could even switch off, using both male and female pronouns alternately, and it'd make more sense than "them" and "they" or "it."

In my mind, when I read these concepts in novels/games, I think:
Neutral = lack of male/female.
Androgeny = possessed of both male/female.

People who want to be neutral should be using it.
People who want to be both should use both he and she alternately to emphasize that the character possesses features of both genders.

That's just how I see it, and I never see a place for "they" or "them" unless someone is referring to a character with multiple personalities or cojoined twins.

I truly believe the language we are currently using was crafted to be estranging, and is still being manipulated to remove the potential for deep thought and dissent from the mainstream. Kind of like how you have more avenues for spiritual or magickal conversations using Bendune, than you do using Sirihish.

In addition, the above speaker is entitled to THEIR opinion. I don't agree with THEM, but there it is.

Also, it's androgyny.

As a writer, I believe that having better descriptive words is always preferable to awkward and only partially correct alternatives.

I feel like more than anything, this was a flimsy excuse to push for social change because the modern world isn't ready for it.

When it comes to the game, we assume sex to be male or female, based on looks and voice. "the person in a facewrap" just doesn't cut it. And if you're a male-looking female, wearing a facewrap that says "the female in a facewrap" and someone says "Ask that woman over there"... well. Maybe they know. Maybe they're assuming. They're still pointing at you so everyone knows who they are talking about.

If you want to be gender neutral, I still say its a special application. Its not an option we need out of chargen, or some function of code we need because "I, as the player, believe that nobody can tell me what sex I look like", then it feels like you're asking for code to be a special snowflake. There have been "androgynous" PCs and NPCs before. One was written so well I STILL don't know which it was, and I was afraid of them all the more for it.

There are ways to achieve this without forcing the social agenda in a 20 year old text based game in a desert alien world. Codedly. You can be "the figure in a" instead of "the female wearing a".

Special app or gtfo.

In character creation, you do not pick gender or sexuality - you pick your character's sex. Sex choice refers specifically to the biological status of your character - i.e., what reproductive organs your character has. Intersex conditions (again, specifically referring to the character's biological status) would be lumped under the broader category of mutations by Zalanthans. They would be considered minor cosmetic mutations (no special application required).

Gender refers to attitudes, feelings, and behaviors that a culture associates with a person's sex. In Zalanthas, there is no gender-normative behavior (where gender matches with sex, according to culture) or gender-nonconformity (where gender does not match with sex, according to culture) because no cultures in Zalanthas associate gender roles with a person's biological sex.

With that in mind, gender is not even a concept in Zalanthas - only sex (biological status) and sexuality (sexual orientation). The former is chosen at chargen - intersex characters could choose the sex that they are closer to and use the background to describe their intersex status. The latter is roleplayed and perhaps mentioned in the background.

This is a complicated subject, but one that can be discussed civilly. With that in mind, players are more than welcome to portray any character they like.

I really appreciate the open mind and level head you are using to respond here, Nergal. We don't always agree, but you do try and be fair and level headed. And I appreciate that.

I am referring (if you look at the above post I made with the two pictures) to people who are biologically of female sex, and male sex respectively. They are not transgender (as Andrej(a) Pejic) in Raptor_Dan's post is. Casey Legler works exclusively as a male model and is female. Alexander Bekker has more fluid presentation.

I'm not asking for (or suggesting) the ability to pick a neutral gender role, but instead to be able to pick an option that does not gender all targeted emotes, assess -v, wear, and many, many other commands, to something that should not necessarily be he/she. The people in the pictures are not biologically intersex or even transgender. They are a woman who legitimately looks like a man, and a man who legitimately looks like a woman. Not necessarily all of the time. At many junctures, you are able to tell their sex is one or the other.

As a question/aside: If I was to want to play Casey Legler from the above pictured - she is biologically female and for all apparent appearances is male, should I choose male or female in character creation? Bearing in mind in the answer: all coded echoes, emote targeting, assess -v, look, and dozens and dozens of other commands will tell you that Casey is a woman, even though she looks entirely male. Could you choose male instead, even though you are not biologically a male, so that the hundreds of thousands of times (over a few years, granted) that these coded things will be a part of your character's experience reflect their male appearance?

What about someone who looks female all over but is 95% genetically male on a chromosomal level, and is not technically intersex because their genitalia is not ambiguous and they only present the sex characteristics of one sex? Should I choose female even though they are not a female via their biological sex?

I am not asking this because I want to stir up problems or be difficult, but because there are thousands and thousands of little ways that the game genders your character based on your decision of 'sex', and there are a lot more grey areas and places where this is not 100% obvious on a glance, than a lot of people might think.

I'll grant that I am a mite bit obsessed with such things. (I don't know how many people realize the difference and similarity in the cowper's/skene's gland, or that both males and females have a prostate that can be stimulated but the female prostate is actually what is commonly referred to as the 'g-spot'. I don't know how many people understand that you can be perfectly female physically and genetically 95% male. There is a lot about sex and biology that many people are not aware of.)

Should I pick a female gender with Casey and a male gender with Alexander? If so, does it not seem more strange and jarring that someone who looks female or looks male consistently and constantly be misgendered (mis-sexed?) in every emote or time that code comes into play? What would be considered the best solution and way to broach it (again, bearing in mind that neither is intersex, they just look different than their biological sex)?

Especially in light of hearing from Akaramu about player complaints for trying to convey someone that does not have the binary appearance of X or Y gender, how can we better reflect this in the game? Because it seems like it is a problem if trying to convey this lack of physically apparent sex results in player complaints to be fielded.

I am asking because you are not just choosing their sex. You are choosing the gender pronouns that will be enforced on you by code during every interaction that you will ever have for the life of a character. I would honestly prefer it if coded gender pronouns were all changed to they/their/them, and let players show through emotes on the part of their own pc what the pronoun appropriate for their appearance is, without the game enforcing it based on biological sex, when biological sex can be at total odds with actual apparent sex, even when you are not clinically intersex. But I doubt that will ever happen. Which is why (and I'm not seemingly alone in this) it would be nice to have an option to choose that for yourself, rather than having the game pick a biological sex for pronouns, that may be 100% at odds with what people are seeing in your description.

Much's I want to be sensitive to this issue, because it's a very sensitive subject to many people, having grammatically incorrect "their/they" would make emotes in general harder to read, harder for me to interact with, and frankly just distract me heavily. It would very much break my immersion.  "Xe/ze" or other terms that aren't widely recognized and used would do this also. It would probably also look like the game had typos or that the code was broken, especially to new players that have enough to swallow with adjusting to our gameworld already.

I'm all for social change but this one kind of feels like it's trying to impose that on a medium that's already trying to its very limits to be accommodating.

Like others have said, "it" isn't appropriate either. I don't think there's a good answer or change to this that isn't going to cause more problems than it solves.

Quote from: In Dreams on December 15, 2016, 11:45:46 AM
having grammatically incorrect "their/they" would make emotes in general harder to read, harder for me to interact with, and frankly just distract me heavily.

This is interesting to me, is it just a grammar OCDish thing?  I'm not sure how...

QuoteThe very tall figure in a sandcloth dustcloak waves their bone shortsword threateningly in your direction.

As they approach, the very tall figure in a sandcloth dustcloak waves their hand and says, in sirihish, "Dude."

You slash the very tall figure in a sandcloth dustcloak, delivering a grievous wound.  They reel from the blow.

... are contextually confusing.  I would choose they/their over (s)he, his/her, Xe/ze jarring nonsense every time.  I suppose - To each their own? 

Also realize that not everyone is a native English speaker. I know it might be hard to understand for native speakers but the use of "it" and "their" or other neutral gender terms can really confuse non-native speakers, especially if you use it to refer to a person.

Looking at the other examples, it's even more confusing for me because it makes it sound like many people are approaching or waving their bone shortswords threateningly.

Maybe it's just a French thing, I dunno.

For the example you used, whitt:

Often when you're somewhere with a "figure in a hooded blahblah cloak", there's all too likely to be more, or many many more, figures in similar or exactly the same hooded cloaks that you absolutely cannot tell a difference between. And you're reading what for me is already-barely-readable interspersions of code garble that may have split-second life or death consequences for PCs involved because this is Armageddon. Often the only thing that's giving me any hint to who or what people are doing anything is how they're writing or what pronouns are coming out. Making them more vague for all hooded/masked figures will make this problem, for me personally, much much worse.

Periodically in movies there are attempts to "surprise" the viewers about the gender. Like some bike helmet covered figure that kicks everyone's ass and then takes the helmet off and "whoosh" goes the long hair swiveling with fine features of a female. Or some detective flick, where some covered up criminal does whatever and later on, "gasp" the criminal was actually female! Then there are the gritty attempts like in deadwood.  Not once has it taken me any longer then a heart beat to identify the person as having a female physiology.

When I'd see a covered up figure. I wouldnt know it's sexual orientation, sexual identity, it's preferences, or it's life story. All I would see is a body, covered up in material. And from experience IRL, I'd say it'd take me seconds of watching the figure move to know it's gender.

Quote from: Dar on December 15, 2016, 12:06:11 PM
Periodically in movies there are attempts to "surprise" the viewers about the gender. Like some bike helmet covered figure that kicks everyone's ass and then takes the helmet off and "whoosh" goes the long hair swiveling with fine features of a female. Or some detective flick, where some covered up criminal does whatever and later on, "gasp" the criminal was actually female! Then there are the gritty attempts like in deadwood.  Not once has it taken me any longer then a heart beat to identify the person as having a female physiology.

When I'd see a covered up figure. I wouldnt know it's sexual orientation, sexual identity, it's preferences, or it's life story. All I would see is a body, covered up in material. And from experience IRL, I'd say it'd take me seconds of watching the figure move to know it's gender.

I think the issue of the OP, is that they want to play an androgynous person. Not an "OMG SURPRISE" type, but a "You know that could probably be a guy... excuse me... Sir?" ... "MA'AM"... "Yup you're right time to go".

I think the wording (which I assume was tongue-in-cheek, but maybe not) of the poll has distracted us into -- I think a good -- discussion of gender/sex/pronouns.   But isn't the point of the poll something like this:

Raising a hood on a cloak you are wearing masks your sex in a certain way;  so why shouldn't facewraps (and perhaps other items, like some barbute helmets) do the same thing?

So, just as:

raise hood

turns you into:

the figure in the big blue cloak.

so too:

wear facewrap

should turn you into:

the figure wearing a big blue facewrap


Or am I wrong about the poll?

I voted 'no' -- that is, I think wearing a facewrap should do the same thing as raising your hood.

that's not what I'm talking about. All I'm saying is that clothes and face coverings do not hide people's gender. Which is what I thought the OP was talking about.

Quote from: Raptor_Dan on December 15, 2016, 09:03:50 AM
I truly believe the language we are currently using was crafted to be estranging, and is still being manipulated to remove the potential for deep thought and dissent from the mainstream. Kind of like how you have more avenues for spiritual or magickal conversations using Bendune, than you do using Sirihish.

In addition, the above speaker is entitled to THEIR opinion. I don't agree with THEM, but there it is.

Also, it's androgyny.

Thanks - I knew I spelled it wrong but had a brain-fart and didn't look it up to see how it should have been. And - I'm a she. Or her. Though my account is truly gender-neutral and "it" would apply just fine.

I dunno, I think your 'gender' you pick at chargen is just what you are born as. Whatever you identify as is up to you (the player) and also you (the PC).

I've had male characters that wear female clothing and identify with being more of a woman in certain environments.

I guess I don't see the big deal? I think Nergal just gave carte blanche to pick whatever gender you are born as, and then choose whatever gender you want to be.

That's what I read Nergal's response as, too.

:o

It's a display thing.

Yeah, you can be a character who was born female who prefers to present as a man, but no matter what she wears, the code will make her "look" female - when she wears a hood or facewrap, when she speaks in a sandstorm, when people assess her.

To get around this, if you have a female character who wants to present as male (or vice versa), I'd suggest picking the "male" option at chargen. That way the gender you would prefer to present as will display correctly. You can state that your character is actually female in the bio, and roleplay them as having female genitals. I am sure staff would be fine with that.

Quote from: LauraMars on December 15, 2016, 05:12:33 PM
It's a display thing.

Yeah, you can be a character who was born female who prefers to present as a man, but no matter what she wears, the code will make her "look" female - when she wears a hood or facewrap, when she speaks in a sandstorm, when people assess her.

To get around this, if you have a female character who wants to present as male (or vice versa), I'd suggest picking the "male" option at chargen. That way the gender you would prefer to present as will display correctly. You can state that your character is actually female in the bio, and roleplay them as having female genitals. I am sure staff would be fine with that.

So long as there's not some sort of policy limiting this, that seems like a fine workaround, but you're right on with what I'm talking about there. It's the display aspect/thing. That and frankly I don't want to be playing a male pc that looks and presents as female (and thus chose female at char gen for the sake of what all the pronouns will show up as), and have to worry about people lodging complaints about it, as seems has happened to someone else. That's why I asked even after Nergal's post. Because I basically just want to grok thoroughly what direction is up with that I guess. Bleh, just got off an hour long call @ work, and my brain is dead.

If people lodge complaints about something that's not against policy, the target of the complaint shouldn't hear anything.

Personally I just chalk anything physically weird up to "mutations", the rest to Zalanthas' particular gender roles (or lack thereof) and roll with it. This doesn't need to be a big deal. Don't worry how others play, just worry how about how your character ought to react.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 15, 2016, 05:28:14 PM
If people lodge complaints about something that's not against policy, the target of the complaint shouldn't hear anything.

Personally I just chalk anything physically weird up to "mutations", the rest to Zalanthas' particular gender roles (or lack thereof) and roll with it. This doesn't need to be a big deal. Don't worry how others play, just worry how about how your character ought to react.

Yarp.

I love the idea of being able to choose your gender presentation like half-elf presentation, but in the meantime the method Nergal described is fine for me.

As a player, I always, always, always err on the side of RP. If something seems ambiguous and there's no roleplayed reason my PC would know the truth of something--from gender to whether someone's a magicker to whether they're a dangerous wanted criminal--then I always err on the side of making my character a dipshit because the game is way more fun that way.

It may interest people to know that there are androgynous/hermaphroditic npcs in the game, with documentation and everything. There's just, unfortunately, no real coded way to handle them other than giving them the gender neutral/sort of offensive 'it' pronoun.

I'd like more options for display/presentation, myself. I won't die without it, and there's ways to work around the code, but I think it would still be kinda nice. It has nothing to do with being politically correct, and everything to do with being interesting and increasing appeal (how many games - even roleplaying games - let non-binary people represent themselves?) Besides, having more interplay with genders is just cool from a writing perspective, and it feels appropriate for the "anything goes" nature of the game.

Hmmmmm. Even having an option at chargen that is like, super liberal forward thinking.

What is the gender your PC was born as? (Male/Female)

What gender do they present as? (Male/Female)

That might be too many steps for people not familiar with gender roles...Or who don't care about them, though.

EDIT:
Oh, someone already posted this on the last page.

I'm also fine with the way Nergal has presented it, that's how I already do it, too.

Then again...I'm not exactly sure why 'male/female' is attached to facewraps. I guess because the rest of your body is visible? But it does seem like an unneccesary thing to add. If you want to figure out if the facewrap was a male/female, you should have to read their mdesc and figure it out. If it's ambiguous from the mdesc...Uh...Then I guess too bad?

Quote from: Reiloth on December 15, 2016, 06:41:16 PM
Hmmmmm. Even having an option at chargen that is like, super liberal forward thinking.

What is the gender your PC was born as? (Male/Female)

What gender do they present as? (Male/Female)

That might be too many steps for people not familiar with gender roles...Or who don't care about them, though.

Yeah. I guarantee you if anyone in a rural part of NC decided to give Armageddon a whirl and saw that, they'd immediately go, 'what the fuck is a gender presentation?'

Quote from: boog on December 15, 2016, 06:43:13 PM

Quote from: Reiloth on December 15, 2016, 06:41:16 PM
Hmmmmm. Even having an option at chargen that is like, super liberal forward thinking.

What is the gender your PC was born as? (Male/Female)

What gender do they present as? (Male/Female)

That might be too many steps for people not familiar with gender roles...Or who don't care about them, though.

Yeah. I guarantee you if anyone in a rural part of NC decided to give Armageddon a whirl and saw that, they'd immediately go, 'what the fuck is a gender presentation?'

They might be in for a surprise when they get in game, tho...

I'd be happy with this instead, and the understanding that it does not determine a gender role or biological sex, but instead JUST the pronouns used with targets and commands to refer to your pc.


What name do you wish to call yourself?
What is your character's sex? (M/F/N)


Quote from: Reiloth on December 15, 2016, 06:41:16 PM
What is the gender your PC was born as? (Male/Female)

What gender do they present as? (Male/Female)

The former would have zero coded relevance, though, so why bother?

No, you either look female or you look male. Pick one. That's your game sex. Nobody cares afterward if you have a penis or not. If you look neither male nor female, exactly 50% 50%, then you're a special snowflake and you need to special app.

OP was talking about facewraps and such - this is a totally different topic.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 15, 2016, 07:49:44 AM
In addition - "they" and "their" indicate plural. If you are twins, or multiple personalities, it fits. If you are not twins, or multiple personalities, it doesn't fit. If you want to play gender neutral, then use a gender neutral pronoun: it. And possessive pronoun its. And contracted "it is" to it's.

If you're not him or her, you're it.

Let's test that one out.

"Hey, you should have heard the templar at Red's this morning."

"Oh yeah? What did it say?"

'They' would work in that sentence.

they
T͟Hā/Submit
pronoun
1.
used to refer to two or more people or things previously mentioned or easily identified.
"the two men could get life sentences if they are convicted"
2.
used to refer to a person of unspecified sex.
"ask someone if they could help"

The They wearing a grey, sandcloth facewrap is standing here.

It seems to me it would be pretty easy to simply modify the code to remove the male/female options in the sdesc when someone wears a facewrap.  When wearing a hood you already don't have to worry about it, you appear as a figure.

The figure in a dark, desert-sandcloth facewrap

/end of thread

You could go the Octavia Butler route and check out the ooloi stuff. I don't remember how they referred to themselves, or how others referred to them, but I'm pretty sure it was "it." It was the third sex. There was male, female, and ooloi. Him, her, it.

Also, the facewrap thing - I give you exhibit A:

The buxom, curvy woman.

Wearing a facewrap.
And a bra.
And a tight pair of pants.

The code should hide the fact that it's a female just because she's covering the bottom half of her face? Seriously?

And don't suppose that this is an isolated incident. There lots of buxom, or curvy, or wide-hipped, or otherwise OBVIOUSLY female-written PCs in the game. Often. The code should absolutely positively NOT hide their gender just because the lower half of their face is covered. If they're wearing a cloak, then the cloak is obscuring the most obvious features. If they're wearing a cowl - it isn't obscuring them and I don't think those should hide their gender either.

Things that cover the head, but not the rest of the body, should NOT hide gender.

Oh lord.

*tries desperately to close pandora's box*

*cheerfully dropkicks pandora's box*

In my dream world I'd be able to set what coded gender I'm presenting as at will. Paint on a mustache and be a dude for a day. Stuff some melons down my shirt, cinch up a corset and pass as a girl.

With appropriate roleplay of course.

Quote from: LauraMars on December 15, 2016, 08:17:36 PM
*cheerfully dropkicks pandora's box*

In my dream world I'd be able to set what coded gender I'm presenting as at will. Paint on a mustache and be a dude for a day. Stuff some melons down my shirt, cinch up a corset and pass as a girl.

With appropriate roleplay of course.

Completely 100% agree. I have wanted to RP Mrs. Doubtfire and Aladdin scenes and, due to code, cannot.

I'm serious that isn't sarcastic!

In my dream we would have a scale of obscuring for clothing

Masks, facewraps, bandanas, etc hide the sdesc but NOT the sex
Hooded robes, abas, cloaks and the like would hide the sdesc AND the sex

I'd also like the the detail of an sdesc to drop depending on distance.

So there.

Quote from: LauraMars on December 15, 2016, 08:17:36 PM
*cheerfully dropkicks pandora's box*

In my dream world I'd be able to set what coded gender I'm presenting as at will. Paint on a mustache and be a dude for a day. Stuff some melons down my shirt, cinch up a corset and pass as a girl.

With appropriate roleplay of course.

Not going to lie, if neutral pronouns existed, 95% of the time, I'd be down for using those, especially if the gender thing was removed from facewrap/cloak stuff, so I could do this very thing. Genderfluidity ftw.

I like both LauraMars' and BadSkeelz' take on it. When you think your character is appearing, or vocalizing, more like a female than a male, then your pronoun can toggle back and forth. Downside to that is the same as the downside to movement/talk aliases - if you forget to re-toggle appropriately you end up being the bald female with the male voice and mustache, or the male with melon-sized knockers. Also, the sdesc morphing to a "figure" as you gain distance from whoever you're looking at.

Sounds like a decent compromise.

I wish shouting and talking in the dark just pulled from a voice description you could set at chargen and in description change requests instead of being male/female/whatever.

The tall muscular man kicks you in the pelvis, making you see stars!

Your voice changes from Deep to High.

>change voice deep

You can't do that yet, you're in too much pain.

Quote from: MeTekillot on December 15, 2016, 09:06:43 PM
I wish shouting and talking in the dark just pulled from a voice description you could set at chargen and in description change requests instead of being male/female/whatever.

That would also be sweet.

the really loud half-italian woman shouts, 'you fuckin' idiots ate all my meatballs!' from the south

The nice subset of that (perhaps unforeseen) is that when you overhear people shouting or talking from another room, they might have different 'sounds' to their voice.

If you want to play someone that looks like a woman but has the plumbing of a man or the plumbing of a woman but looks like a man, write your desc as your primary gender and then put in your background what biological gender you were born as.

Quote from: bardlyone on December 15, 2016, 08:27:09 PM
Genderfluidity ftw.

I generally don't post, but was moved enough to say:  thank you, thank you, thank you for advocating for this in a graceful and articulate way.  I have "skin in the game" myself, and it's really quite amazing to not feel like I need to shut up and grit my teeth.  I came because of the RPI and setting; I'm staying because of the depth of RP and the chance to explore things in a game-world that are impossible IRL. 

And this:

Quote from: Nergal on December 15, 2016, 09:30:13 AM
This is a complicated subject, but one that can be discussed civilly. With that in mind, players are more than welcome to portray any character they like.

is a wonderful thing to read, and know that that's an official staff position.  In fact, I have to say all my interactions with the staff around gender identity/pronouns/fluidity have been similarly positive and supportive.  For a 20-year-old game, Armageddon, you're sure growing up nicely. ;-)

Wish I read nergal's post before responding in the other thread. I think it's a fine policy.