Instead of dragging up an old topic, I thought I'd start a new one to see if anything has been done or is about to be.
Quote from: Nyr on January 30, 2009, 03:53:47 PM
Elf love is coming, from what I understand.
and:
Quote from: Shalooonsh on February 25, 2009, 04:41:37 PM
Thought has been given to city elves lately.
I just finished reading through this whole topic. http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34139.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,34139.0.html)
Trying to play a city-elf not in the rinth is indeed quite difficult. Other's rp seems to try to drive a relatively law abiding elf into the rinth or out the gates. Since this seems to have been going on regularly for years, is there any thought to give city-elf some way to cope outdoors or a coded tribe to back them up?
I think several people's suggestion of giving c-elves the same or close to coded ability of d-elves to move outdoors while keeping their stamina at current levels would be a good compromise, allowing them to move further than 20 or so rooms from a city before collapsing and waiting to be eaten. Barring that, since this game is decidely NOT dark sun, why can't some city-elves who make their living outdoors overcome their pride and ride, or use mounts to save their own lives?
I just would like to hear a staff opinion on this since so far I only saw them make statements about their stats, which aren't even really the issue at hand.
Thank you, and discuss.
As for the two quotes you've used, they refer to coded tribes with sponsored roles that were opened/created at the time.
It seems elves are never going to ride in Armageddon. As far as I see it, playing a city elf is an extremely challenging role, one which some people simply cannot deal with. These people sometimes post threads claiming how broken and useless city elves are. Personally, I think it's a matter of preferance.
City-elves are my favorite race to role-play.
I don't think celves need anything to be more awesome. They already have the means to be extremely powerful codedly and politically (in a way.)
Besides being a blast to play, they do have the most 'powerful' kinship of any race. (So long as they belong to a tribe.) That in itself lends the celf unparalleled advantages.
Quote from: Is Friday on June 15, 2010, 02:21:13 PM
I don't think celves need anything to be more awesome. They already have the means to be extremely powerful codedly and politically (in a way.)
Besides being a blast to play, they do have the most 'powerful' kinship of any race. (So long as they belong to a tribe.) That in itself lends the celf unparalleled advantages.
Where are these tribes then in 3 out of the 4 major population centers?
What I'm saying is, with a lack of coded clans to belong to, c-elves are easy pickings for anyone bored and wanting to flex their racism rp. This forces them either to the rinth, or outside.
Related to this, since its been stated several times that c-elves and d-elves are genetically the same race, just with different habits and lifestyles, why can't c-elves at least have some fraction of a d-elves movement abilities outside? I'm just asking for some middle-ground so that c-elves can, when things get tough where they are, realistically be able to pack up and flee town for easier pickings.
If this isn't to be coded, I'd like to hear from staff member about if it would ever be possible for a c-elf to train or learn the d-elf running skills? Such as a few years of living with a d-elf tribe or running by themselves along the outside roads and sending in years of logs. I just want to know if the possibility exists, not that every elf who steps outside will automatically be granted it.
I think that's part of what makes the celf so appealing.
Besides which--you don't play a delf and get the coded benefits without playing in a clan. It's required to.
You don't get the roleplayed benefits of playing a celf without playing in a tribe. It's not required to.
If anything, celves are more flexible for roles than delves. If you find it too hard, don't play one. If you want to have an easy time codedly or otherwise, pick human, or even half-elf. Don't petition to reduce the variety we have available to us.
C-elf and D-elf may share a common gene pool from a few dozen generations back, but that doesn't mean they're the same. Just look at earth, all humans spring from the same gene pool, but generation after generation, various segments of humanity have adapted to their environment. Body hair, skin pigmentation, muscle and bone growth, etc. These are things that a person is born with, and cannot be learned/trained/adjusted to (at least not to the extent that the "native" population had adapted over time.)
I'd say you should think of D-elf and C-elf as the same species (Like Earth Human are) but different races (Asian, African, Latin, Anglo, etc).
To play a city-elf in Allanak, without being from the rinth, is certainly hard. Really the only way for one to live in the commons without ever setting foot in the rinth is having a wide network and playing it smart. It's doable though, as with any role.
Almost all elven deaths, or actions leading to their demise, is from them being stupidly prideful. Sure you'll get harassed in situations, but an elf (or any PC at that) will rarely ever be killed without having done something to give suspicion or a reason.
If you haven't found any members of the coded city-elf tribes in Tuluk or Allanak, you really haven't been trying very hard.
And remember, delves don't like celves any more then they like anybody else outside tribe.
The odds of a celf living in the wilderness for a long enough time to muscle up and be able to run like a delf is pretty much 0, though higher then a celf being able to live with a delf tribe as anything other then slave that cannot leave the camp.
I played one city elf in the rinth and stored. It was an experiment.
No. The situation is crap.
You're either on when the clan is or not. City elves ought to be able to go indie and be successful.
IMHO.
Quote from: janeshephard on June 15, 2010, 10:25:44 PM
I played one city elf in the rinth and stored. It was an experiment.
No. The situation is crap.
You're either on when the clan is or not. City elves ought to be able to go indie and be successful.
IMHO.
Make your own tribe?
And C-elves -can- be indie and successful..... Ever tried a c-elf burglar?
The staff have given the c-elves some love in the last year or so.
The only thing I really really want to see is openings for elves in the other two merchant clans.
Quote from: janeshephard on June 15, 2010, 10:25:44 PM
I played one city elf in the rinth and stored. It was an experiment.
No. The situation is crap.
You're either on when the clan is or not. City elves ought to be able to go indie and be successful.
IMHO.
The situation is crap because you played one experimental city elf, didn't like it, and stored?
You know this game just way too well.
I personally love city elves and everything about them. There are plenty of ways to make one successful without having to kiss everyone's ass. Quite some time ago I played a rather well off city elf who had gained quite a bit of power in multiple areas of the game world. I have also witnessed quite a few other rather well off and very well roleplayed city elves in my time, it takes some work, yes....but that makes it well worth it. They have their own positives that d-elves just don't have....coded tribes have been opened and made available for anyone wishing to find them IG. That being said, look just a weeeeeeeee bit harder in-game and you will be successful.
Just my two sids...;)
I've met clanned city elves in Tuluk and Allanak recently. If you aren't encountering any, you either aren't looking in the right places or it might be a playtimes issue.
There are clanned elven NPCs in all the merchant clans, I think. Don't really get why PCs aren't hired outside of a particular employer's preference.
That said, it is very possible to play a city elf in any city, clanned or unclanned, and do so successfully. It takes a far greater effort to do so than with a human... and as well it should, just like all the other non-human races.
Quote from: janeshephard on June 15, 2010, 10:25:44 PM
I played one city elf in the rinth and stored. It was an experiment.
No. The situation is crap.
You're either on when the clan is or not. City elves ought to be able to go indie and be successful.
IMHO.
I have to disagree with this. I think that if you want to go indie that you should play a human or half-elf (or hg or mul or dwarf) because it is psychologically consistent with what those races are. Elves however, whether delf celf are tribal creatures. Being part of the tribe is what they are.
I don't know for sure that is impossible, but I think it's difficult to play an elf, as an elf without a tribe. I believe one may be intregal to the other.
If however instead of changing city elves one argued that there should be more coded tribes to belong to, that might resonate more for me.
Quote from: Cutthroat on June 16, 2010, 07:29:28 AM
There are clanned elven NPCs in all the merchant clans, I think. Don't really get why PCs aren't hired outside of a particular employer's preference.
Three of the four GMHs do not hire elves, because they are slippery thieving scum. Only one of them puts that kind of slippery thieving scum to use.
Regarding enjoyment or lack thereof of playing any particular race/guild/clan, it could be for a few reasons.
- You haven't fully explored all the possibilities of that role and given it sufficient chance to prove itself to be enjoyable.
- You're too focused on the limitations rather than the advantages.
- Or, that type of role simply isn't for you.
Elves are more challenging because of their reputation and limitations. The only race that truly has no limitations are humans.
Quote from: Spice Spice Baby on June 16, 2010, 06:21:49 AM
I've met clanned city elves in Tuluk and Allanak recently. If you aren't encountering any, you either aren't looking in the right places or it might be a playtimes issue.
It was playtimes I think. Either way I found I don't have a high tolerance for "challenging" roles so I don't go for them anymore :)
QuoteThree of the four GMHs do not hire elves, because they are slippery thieving scum. Only one of them puts that kind of slippery thieving scum to use.
Errrr. I think NPCs were mentioned. And while this is correct on a PC level, I am not sure it is on an NPC level. Trying to think of an example off the top of my head...the Salarri shops in Tuluk, I think?
Quote from: Twilight on June 16, 2010, 02:36:27 PM
QuoteThree of the four GMHs do not hire elves, because they are slippery thieving scum. Only one of them puts that kind of slippery thieving scum to use.
Errrr. I think NPCs were mentioned. And while this is correct on a PC level, I am not sure it is on an NPC level. Trying to think of an example off the top of my head...the Salarri shops in Tuluk, I think?
There are or were elven militia in Redstorm. There were also elven PCs in Salarr in the past.
I find it frusterating that players and even staff think that only one facet of of the documentation is true. Elves are not always 'slippery thieving scum'. Potentially, elves can be the most loyal employee a merchant house has ever had.
Red Storm is a different case. They have muls as militia, too.
Quote from: Jingo on June 16, 2010, 08:48:25 PM
Quote from: Twilight on June 16, 2010, 02:36:27 PM
QuoteThree of the four GMHs do not hire elves, because they are slippery thieving scum. Only one of them puts that kind of slippery thieving scum to use.
Errrr. I think NPCs were mentioned. And while this is correct on a PC level, I am not sure it is on an NPC level. Trying to think of an example off the top of my head...the Salarri shops in Tuluk, I think?
There are or were elven militia in Redstorm. There were also elven PCs in Salarr in the past.
I find it frusterating that players and even staff think that only one facet of of the documentation is true. Elves are not always 'slippery thieving scum'. Potentially, elves can be the most loyal employee a merchant house has ever had.
I love the "Long Con"!
I always like to imagine the drastic shake-up in play the game would experience if PC elves were represented in the same proportion as they supposedly are in the population overall.
But I completely understand why folks don't care for playing them...I've ranted about it at length, elsewhere.
I love playing celves and delves. They are entirely different from each other, and yet the same. Their gameplay is compleyely different from playing humans though. There "are" clans that hire elves. Especially in the labyrinth. The problem and 'beauty' of it though, is that it is 'difficult'. Not a 'nuisance' difficult, but 'rp' difficult to be part of a clan for an elf. Mainly due to all the trust issues. Stuff just does not come easy for elves in terms of trust and that's a great thing.
Celves are very playable right now, but their gameplay "is" different and 'not' easy. I'm in full support of people who say Celves should be a karma race. Not because it is any particular way stronger then non karma races (I'd argue the opposite), but due to the complexity of the mindset.
Quote from: creepyguy on June 15, 2010, 01:45:35 PM
. Barring that, since this game is decidely NOT dark sun, why can't some city-elves who make their living outdoors overcome their pride and ride, or use mounts to save their own lives?
Ironically in Dark Sun there are no city elves/desert elves. It's just Elf. They all have the "running mind state" that they can enter and start their olympic marathon across the wastes. Just pointing that out..
Oh. Also there was an elf in the Dark Sun books that did ride a kank. He was around 200 years old though and couldn't run for shit anymore, and had risen in rank to become the right-hand man of a sorcerer king which was pretty cool.
Quote from: Timetwister on June 17, 2010, 12:36:50 AM
Quote from: creepyguy on June 15, 2010, 01:45:35 PM
. Barring that, since this game is decidely NOT dark sun, why can't some city-elves who make their living outdoors overcome their pride and ride, or use mounts to save their own lives?
Ironically in Dark Sun there are no city elves/desert elves. It's just Elf. They all have the "running mind state" that they can enter and start their olympic marathon across the wastes. Just pointing that out..
Oh. Also there was an elf in the Dark Sun books that did ride a kank. He was around 200 years old though and couldn't run for shit anymore, and had risen in rank to become the right-hand man of a sorcerer king which was pretty cool.
I don't see any irony here.
Quote from: Malifaxis on June 18, 2010, 09:35:08 AM
I don't see any irony here.
The fact that he said it's not Dark Sun. Yet in that setting the elves, regardless of where they live can enter their mental running state and take off. This isn't true on Arm, which obviously has DS influences.
In Dark Sun, it's not a 'running state' like some altered state of mind or anything. It's like they're all d.elves as far as running ability goes, in Arm terms. (In D&D2e terms this means they all have the 'running' proficiency.) Others can get that proficiency too, though.
As far as Arm goes, though, I have long been a proponent of getting rid of the celf/delf distinction and only have an elf race. Maybe make the elf running ability not as effective as delfs get it but better than celfs, whatever. The specifics are malleable.
Ah I think you're right. I don't know why i thought they had to meditate or something. I guess I'm confusing it with something else. I found this though:
http://darkoftheday.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=dsraces&action=print&thread=1044
C-elf playability has been discussed many times. In most cases, the issue stems from their not having as many movement points as d-elves added to the fact that they do not ride, thus rendering them difficult to play - in locations that require the PC to commute long distances. This issue is further emphasized when their desert-cousins contrarily have so many movement points, that they can almost run across the Known World without needing to rest much.
I think to make things equal for c-elves not being able to run outdoors (added to the fact that they don't ride), d-elves should get a massive negative modifier when they are within cities or using any man-made roads. Its unrealistic and unfair to see d-elves fit in and run around with all those movement points, inside cities, without even a hint of being out of their element!
In fact, it would be fair to c-elves and d-elves, if all the man-made roads (i.e. North Road and others), give c-elves a city-like positive movement modifier and d-elves a similar city-like negative modifier.
That'll allow city elves a relatively higher mobility than they currently have - which is desperately needed, while giving the desert elves a fair balancing negative modifier when they decide to use man-made roads instead of the natural ones, to which they are used to.
Mind you - I'm specifically not saying that c-elves should get more movement points, coz that'd just be a crude workaround to the real issue, which is the adaptability of c-elves and d-elves to different terrains, and, man-made roads anywhere in the Known World, being more akin to city terrain and less like natural terrain.
Quote from: Twilight on June 16, 2010, 02:36:27 PM
QuoteThree of the four GMHs do not hire elves, because they are slippery thieving scum. Only one of them puts that kind of slippery thieving scum to use.
Errrr. I think NPCs were mentioned. And while this is correct on a PC level, I am not sure it is on an NPC level. Trying to think of an example off the top of my head...the Salarri shops in Tuluk, I think?
*waves his hand* This elf has always been a half-elf. Also, these are not the droids you are looking for.
*Becomes a zombie*
No way dude, that salarri is a half-elf. Everyone knows that.
Quote from: Incognito on June 21, 2010, 06:30:56 AM
In fact, it would be fair to c-elves and d-elves, if all the man-made roads (i.e. North Road and others), give c-elves a city-like positive movement modifier and d-elves a similar city-like negative modifier.
Thank you for this. I think this is pretty much what I had in mind to help balance c-elves and allow them some chance of getting to a "safe" city within a day.
There already is balance.
Here, let me give the syntax.
drop tent
make tent
enter tent
Quote from: X-D on June 21, 2010, 12:26:18 PM
There already is balance.
Here, let me give the syntax.
drop tent
make tent
enter tent
Hahahah..
City Elves can navigate the world just fine. Probably in a more realistic sense, as far as time frame, than most of the travel going on.
City Elves have a slew of tribes to choose from these days in every city state, both coded and uncoded, you just have to find them.
City Elf stats are fine, if not great, for any guild you choose upon creation.
Socialization for City Elves match the documentation quite well.
What's the playability problem here?
Quote from: Spider on June 21, 2010, 01:08:45 PM
City Elves have a slew of tribes to choose from these days in every city state, both coded and uncoded, you just have to find them.
..."find them?" I want to (hypothetically)
play a city elf, not scalp one.
Quote from: Spider on June 21, 2010, 01:08:45 PM
City Elves have a slew of tribes to choose from these days in every city state, both coded and uncoded, you just have to find them.
What's the playability problem here?
The problem with city-elf tribes is, that there is only
1 listed as being open in the clan docs. I know you say to find out IC for others, but how is a player supposed to apply to create a family member already in one of these tribes if they are not listed publicly anywhere? This should be an option since joining one through play could take IG years to become trusted and fully part of one. And with none being listed as being open in the clan docs, it makes players planning on playing a city-elf assume that there are no tribes for them to join and so they create characters with backgrounds of being loners since they do not know there are other options.
There are two tribes open. I thought there was an entry on this already, but there was not. I added one and will flesh it out later.
Akai Sjir (http://www.armageddon.org/ic/#Akai%20Sjir)
Jaxa Pah (http://www.armageddon.org/ic/#Jaxa%20Pah)
Quote from: Nyr on June 21, 2010, 02:21:52 PM
Jaxa Pah (http://www.armageddon.org/ic/#Jaxa%20Pah)
Awesome. I was totally unaware of this.
Nice to see the Jaxa get added to the list. They're fun people. ;)
I've definitely been happy to see city elves with clans again. It seems that Rinthi elves in particular have been lost since the previous city clans had been closed.
Quote from: X-D on June 21, 2010, 12:26:18 PM
There already is balance.
Here, let me give the syntax.
drop tent
make tent
enter tent
kill tent
Quote from: AI Fashion and Swag on June 22, 2010, 01:06:56 AM
Quote from: a strange shadow on June 21, 2010, 11:52:28 PM
Quote from: X-D on June 21, 2010, 12:26:18 PM
There already is balance.
Here, let me give the syntax.
drop tent
make tent
enter tent
kill tent
guard tent
Lol, at this point I think "rescue tent" is necessary.
On topic: The city-elf clans have been revealed, they have opportunities, you just have to be an elf about it. You know, sneaky sneaky.
Quote from: X-D on June 21, 2010, 12:26:18 PM
There already is balance.
Here, let me give the syntax.
drop tent
make tent
enter tent
X-D, gonna have to disagree with you on this one - it would be a rare c-elf PC, who would be able to carry around personal belongings AND an extra tent, and still have a low enough encumberance to allow for city-to-city mobility.
Edited to add:
Besides, what is the justification in d-elves having zero movement penalties inside cities and on man-made terrain, when their city cousins get a distinctive negative modifier when they are outdoors?
Add 'hitch kank'
But yes, just like city/wilderness sneak and hide, desert-elves should have a lot of difficulty running through crowds. The problem at present is, as has already been mentioned, that even with their modifiers desert-elves could outrun city-elves. If that's a problem, though. City-elf running could be what's left over of their running ability, so rather it's a bonus for city elves compared to other city-dwellers because they have retained some running ability -and- adapted to the city.
Spoon beat me to the pack animal.
Also, not all tents are created equal.
As to the last bit, city elves have grown soft, it is that simple.
And crowds? Come on, I've yet to see a city rooms that states "Crowds of world cup density" and delves have to run dodging rocks, trees, other plants, holes, predators and more, I think that more then allows practice that carries over to darting around slow moving humans.
Lastly, City elves are...Um, CITY elves, it should not be easy for them to travel in the wilderness, they should not even want to be in the wilderness. Sure, they can travel between cities, but it should be risky and a real pain in the ass. So, things are just fine.
Quote from: Spoon on June 23, 2010, 07:43:57 AM
Add 'hitch kank'
But yes, just like city/wilderness sneak and hide, desert-elves should have a lot of difficulty running through crowds. The problem at present is, as has already been mentioned, that even with their modifiers desert-elves could outrun city-elves. If that's a problem, though. City-elf running could be what's left over of their running ability, so rather it's a bonus for city elves compared to other city-dwellers because they have retained some running ability -and- adapted to the city.
Have you actually ever had a foot face between a city elf and a desert elf, in the city? My last one was maybe five or six years ago, so maybe the code has changed, but to me it definately looked as if it were working as intended.
City elves start with sirihish and don't have to spend 98% of their days played alone after their whole tribe gets eaten by weezers.
City elves running the city have a bonus that defeats even desert-elves running in the city. So you guys know.
Unless it's been changed.
I seem to remember city elf stamina used to be higher?
I seem to remember less whining.
Quote from: Malifaxis on June 23, 2010, 05:19:59 PM
I seem to remember less whining.
I believe you're mistaken there.
Yeah, you've been here before too Barzalene?
Anyway, on a less inane level:
Twilight, I haven't actually tested both in a footrace. If it's like this already then all's well.
X-D, Woudln't running down the high street of a town is trickier than running through a park? I'm not really making a point for code change though as I'm pro status-quo on this. I think if you pick city elf, you deal with the restrictions. There are plenty of other options if people can't deal with it.
Sure it would be trickier then a park...But I don't think anybody would call the zalanthan wilderness a park....take a look at them room descs sometime...brutal.
Yeah, I guess they train race horses and soldiers on sand in real life because it's such a bastard to run on, too.
Here's a little experiment:
Try going for a jog down a city sidewalk.
Then try going for a jog over the choppiest part of a sandy beach, the part that's not been washed smooth by the water.
As a counter-argument, I do think that running on wilderness roads should cost as much as walking on one, for a city elf.
This is, if it doesn't already. I haven't played one in, um, a really long time.
Personally. I like the handicap the celves have in the wild. They're 'ment' to have them. The delves having no handicaps in the city isnt that big a deal, considering only a few tribes can even "enter" cities, and it is up to the playerbase to decide just how 'welcome' those delves are.
For celves, a passage from city to city is a long, difficult ordeal, not something to be taken lightly, easily, or on a whim. A celf living in the wild, must have some extremely difficult adaptation to do.
C.elves can run in the city better than d.elves. Just because d.elves can still run better than anyone else in the city doesn't mean they have no handicaps. Coded handicaps, maybe they have less than a human, but they have plenty of socio-cultural handicaps, more than c.elves.
Quote from: Niamh on June 24, 2010, 12:19:42 PM
Here's a little experiment:
Try going for a jog down a city sidewalk.
Then try going for a jog over the choppiest part of a sandy beach, the part that's not been washed smooth by the water.
Is this assuming that I could get better at beach running? Why wouldn't city elves be able to have an innate ability to run and simply improve upon it by running outside?
Timetwister, by definition, a city elf didn't do that for all the years of growing up and are not conditioned for it the same way a desert elf is. The difference between a city elf and a desert elf is 100% nurture, not nature.
Quote from: spawnloser on June 25, 2010, 01:26:58 PM
Timetwister, by definition, a city elf didn't do that for all the years of growing up and are not conditioned for it the same way a desert elf is. The difference between a city elf and a desert elf is 100% nurture, not nature.
Well, I wouldn't exactly say that. Weaker runners out in the wild die. Stronger runners survive. Weaker runners who fall behind a lot get less time with the ladies (heh heh, no, that's not serious). But. With long periods of time with their isolation and lack of mixing with the city elves...there very likely are genetic differences between the two. Whether it be muscular, structural, or cardiovascular differences, whatever. Really quite possible for their 'running' to be not only nurtured, but a focal point of their body far more than the city elf.
Either way. I don't want them combined. And I think these complaints are silly.
Wouldn't mind the staff taking delf/celf -- and combining them, into just plain elf, and maintaining the 1 karma standard. That elf wants to be a tribal in the desert, whatever, that elf wants to be in the city, whatever.
Having a distinction between the two makes about as much sense as classifying your left and right testicle as different races. It makes about as much sense as taking individual human tribes, or tuluki and nakki humans, and making them separate races.
That's my opinion at least. And if my opinion carried any weight, which it doesn't -- elves might be enjoyable, or playable, and at this point -- they're absolutely not.
Quote from: FightClub on August 11, 2010, 05:17:39 AM
Wouldn't mind the staff taking delf/celf -- and combining them, into just plain elf, and maintaining the 1 karma standard. That elf wants to be a tribal in the desert, whatever, that elf wants to be in the city, whatever.
Having a distinction between the two makes about as much sense as classifying your left and right testicle as different races. It makes about as much sense as taking individual human tribes, or tuluki and nakki humans, and making them separate races.
That's my opinion at least. And if my opinion carried any weight, which it doesn't -- elves might be enjoyable, or playable, and at this point -- they're absolutely not.
Not necessarily....
There are distinctions like this IRL between humans.
There are some African tribes who hunt by
running an chasing after their prey until it collapses to the ground out of sheer fucking exhaustion.
You can take your best Olympic endurance runner, and he'll fall behind like the city slicker he is.
There was a video on youtube documenting one of those tribal hunts.... And if I can find it, I'll post it up here.
Here we go.
Ladies and gentlemen.
I present to you.
Desert elves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUpo_mA5RP8
Wow. Amazing and sad.
Not sure why it is sad. But it is amazing. Long distance running was the true human advantage and drove quite a bit of the evolution of our legs, hips, gait, etc.
I'm glad you dug that back up, Qzzrbl. It's a damn awesome video.
Quote from: Thunkkin on August 11, 2010, 10:28:54 AM
Not sure why it is sad.
I found the part with the animal collapsing sad. To know you're going to die but you can't do a damn thing about it.
Quote from: spicemustflow on August 11, 2010, 12:22:47 PM
Quote from: Thunkkin on August 11, 2010, 10:28:54 AM
Not sure why it is sad.
I found the part with the animal collapsing sad. To know you're going to die but you can't do a damn thing about it.
I found it apt of the stamina/movement code. Still sucks for it, though. I've lost many a pc to randomly being chased down.
Quote from: spicemustflow on August 11, 2010, 12:22:47 PM
Quote from: Thunkkin on August 11, 2010, 10:28:54 AM
Not sure why it is sad.
I found the part with the animal collapsing sad. To know you're going to die but you can't do a damn thing about it.
Nothing wrong at all with empathizing with your prey. The hunter in the video did.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on August 11, 2010, 07:58:00 AM
Here we go.
Ladies and gentlemen.
I present to you.
Desert elves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUpo_mA5RP8
I present to you...Salarr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkN6C1ur1t8&feature=related
Quote from: FightClub on August 11, 2010, 03:22:09 PM
I present to you...Salarr
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkN6C1ur1t8&feature=related
Ok ... some of THAT hunting made me rather sad, especially the elephant. Nonetheless ... holly hells, some of that hunting was dangerous. Buffalo, elephants, and hippo can
really rearrange someone's life if they don't get away from the animal fast enough.
Wow. That elephant was just standing there ripping the spears out of itself.
Watching that elephant sucked dog balls.
I'd rather watch a human get stuffed chock-full o' spears.
Now what the hell am I going to do with all this anger...
Quote from: Malifaxis on August 11, 2010, 04:39:03 PM
Watching that elephant sucked dog balls.
I'd rather watch a human get stuffed chock-full o' spears.
Now what the hell am I going to do with all this anger...
Malifaxis has arrived from the east.
You look at Malifaxis.
_______ ___
/\\_____//~-_ _-~\\__
(~) ~-_ ~-_ _-~ _-~
(~) ~-_ ~-_ _-~ /-~
Welcome to Armageddon! (~) `~-_ ~_======_--~~ __~
(~) _~_\__\____/__/_--\ ~`-_
\ _-~~ _-~~~-_ \_ ~-_
You may: ~- __--~`_ / _-~ ~. ~_
(C) Disconnect from character -~ \ _~ ___, \ ~-_ \
(V) Toggle ANSI/VT100 mode ,~ _-, ~ _~ \ \ | , \ \
(B) Toggle 'brief' menus / /~/ -~ / ~ / / \~ \
(D) Documentation menu | | \ _~ | __-~ / _/ \~ '\
(M) Mail menu \ ~-_~ - | _ ~-____-~ .~ \~ |
(S) Stats of your character /`. __~~ ~ `_ __-~ \~ \~
(E) Enter Zalanthas \_ ~~ . | . ~-____--~~ \ \_~ _/~
Adding to the derail.
City-elves and desert elves should have a tribe that does this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqGDv0KCJl8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqGDv0KCJl8)
Quote from: Malifaxis on August 11, 2010, 04:39:03 PM
Watching that elephant sucked dog balls.
I'd rather watch a human get stuffed chock-full o' spears.
Now what the hell am I going to do with all this anger...
Think about that, next time you volunteer for a mekillot, bahamet, silt horror hunt, it's like that, x1000
---
Oh and back on topic. Complain about city elves all you want, and all you need to hear is one name -- SHARAK. The most badass elf ever, destroyed everything, and everyone, delf, celf, human, mul, half-giant, halfling babies -- everything. Think they're underpowered, just say it SHARAK, SHARAK, SHARAK. End story.
You do realize that Sharak had a bunch of crazy shit going on that kind of makes him an apple to a normal city-elf's oranges, right?
I would say Rahnel, but you'd just blame it on defense nerfs. The dude did still kill a Gaj on his own, though.
If you folks think city-elf warriors are so awesome, go ahead and roll one up and prove yourself wrong.
I use to dream of a glorious Kija vs Sharak showdown..
Quote from: Synthesis on August 11, 2010, 10:41:08 PM
If you folks think city-elf warriors are so awesome, go ahead and roll one up and prove yourself wrong.
Done it. Recently. It kicked ass.
Quote from: Hot_Dancer on August 11, 2010, 10:45:07 PM
I use to dream of a glorious Kija vs Sharak showdown..
Sorry, Kija would've got eaten alive -- in a very glorious way, however.
Quote from: FightClub on August 12, 2010, 12:28:49 AM
Quote from: Hot_Dancer on August 11, 2010, 10:45:07 PM
I use to dream of a glorious Kija vs Sharak showdown..
Sorry, Kija would've got eaten alive -- in a very glorious way, however.
Probably eaten alive in a literal sense too. Sharak and all.
Quote from: Thunkkin on August 11, 2010, 10:50:23 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on August 11, 2010, 10:41:08 PM
If you folks think city-elf warriors are so awesome, go ahead and roll one up and prove yourself wrong.
Done it. Recently. It kicked ass.
Quote from: Hot_Dancer on August 11, 2010, 10:45:07 PM
I use to dream of a glorious Kija vs Sharak showdown..
You aint alone.
Rahnel wow.
Quote from: FightClub on August 12, 2010, 12:28:49 AM
Quote from: Hot_Dancer on August 11, 2010, 10:45:07 PM
I use to dream of a glorious Kija vs Sharak showdown..
Sorry, Kija would've got eaten alive -- in a very glorious way, however.
I think it would have come down to player skill at this point.
pof Sharak lived down the street from me when we were playing these characters at their height..
Kija was a pre-defense nerf character and his iso clanning versus Sharak's Allanak clanning, post-defense nerf creation..
A pre-defense nerf character + isolation and a no skilled combat practice partners? Kija was definitely more bark than bite.
It's not proper to go into much detail but there was definitely a Chosen One versus the Great Evil thing brewing that
simply never kicked off. It almost happened during that fateful Luirsfest, atleast one PC was aware of the other's nature.
Quote from: Hot_Dancer on August 14, 2010, 06:39:35 PM
pof Sharak lived down the street from me when we were playing these characters at their height..
Kija was a pre-defense nerf character and his iso clanning versus Sharak's Allanak clanning, post-defense nerf creation..
A pre-defense nerf character + isolation and a no skilled combat practice partners? Kija was definitely more bark than bite.
It's not proper to go into much detail but there was definitely a Chosen One versus the Great Evil thing brewing that
simply never kicked off. It almost happened during that fateful Luirsfest, atleast one PC was aware of the other's nature.
I'd think Kija would have had longevity in his favor though, compared to Sharak. A fight between the two would have been great to see. Too bad it didn't come down to that.
While I never played a c-elf warrior, I can see how it's not that easy to pull off. But impossible and a waste of time? Not by far. I would consider any c-elf role an interesting challenge, especially with functional tribes in both city-states these days. Actually, I would consider a c-elf merchant in Allanak harder to play than a warrior, while it might be more feasible in the Tuluki tribe.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on August 11, 2010, 05:52:17 AM
There are some African tribes who hunt by running an chasing after their prey until it collapses to the ground out of sheer fucking exhaustion.
You can take your best Olympic endurance runner, and he'll fall behind like the city slicker he is.
There was a video on youtube documenting one of those tribal hunts.... And if I can find it, I'll post it up here.
I hope you're joking. Olympic endurance runners could easily keep pace with any of the hunters shown in the video you posted, and would probably outpace them. I understand there are subtle differences to trail running opposed to track running, but a runner is a runner is a runner. If you love running you'd do it anywhere and the best runners in the world can hold a 5 minute mile for 26 miles or more. Check out this marathon running link for records: http://www.marathonguide.com/history/records/alltimelist.cfm?Gen=M&Sort=Time
I don't think there's anything special about the other video you posted. It wouldn't be that hard at all for a good runner to run down animals. The tracking/hunting part would have to be learned by them but the running part would easily be covered. To think that other people have developed "natural" running abilities is kind of stupid. Hard work and dedication make you a great runner, not being born with good genes.
There is no group of people who are simply born better runners then others. There are groups of people who are raised into societies that value running and are therefore better than others at it. The same reason there are all sorts of sports that have societies that raise them into it and make the best of their generation. Just look at the Russians and tennis.
i wish I knew more of Sharak's story. i just got in at the very end, and often wondered.
City elf warriors, the most deadly city elf warrior are the ones who hide like ghosts and move like the wind. One moment you're standing on the streets, then a second later, backstabdeath/sapknockoutdeath. Honestly, just hiding and sapping someone, elves seem good at this, and it's horribly dangerous. Dying by it sucks though.
Quote from: Timetwister on August 15, 2010, 02:58:16 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on August 11, 2010, 05:52:17 AM
There are some African tribes who hunt by running an chasing after their prey until it collapses to the ground out of sheer fucking exhaustion.
You can take your best Olympic endurance runner, and he'll fall behind like the city slicker he is.
There was a video on youtube documenting one of those tribal hunts.... And if I can find it, I'll post it up here.
I hope you're joking. Olympic endurance runners could easily keep pace with any of the hunters shown in the video you posted, and would probably outpace them. I understand there are subtle differences to trail running opposed to track running, but a runner is a runner is a runner. If you love running you'd do it anywhere and the best runners in the world can hold a 5 minute mile for 26 miles or more. Check out this marathon running link for records: http://www.marathonguide.com/history/records/alltimelist.cfm?Gen=M&Sort=Time
I don't think there's anything special about the other video you posted. It wouldn't be that hard at all for a good runner to run down animals. The tracking/hunting part would have to be learned by them but the running part would easily be covered. To think that other people have developed "natural" running abilities is kind of stupid. Hard work and dedication make you a great runner, not being born with good genes.
There is no group of people who are simply born better runners then others. There are groups of people who are raised into societies that value running and are therefore better than others at it. The same reason there are all sorts of sports that have societies that raise them into it and make the best of their generation. Just look at the Russians and tennis.
Agreed.
Good marathon runners can sustain a pace of less than six minutes per mile. That's silly.
Quote from: Timetwister on August 15, 2010, 02:58:16 AM
There is no group of people who are simply born better runners then others.
Except for Desert Elves.
I've been wondering about this. I read some older threads where people talked about city elves and why people don't play them much, and the general consensus seemed to be that the race is just really unattractive from a coded perspective. It appears to me that the elven race sacrifices the two most important combat stats in exchange for the other two seemingly less valuable, to the point where an ordinary city elf warrior is just straight up worse than one of any other given race. Then tack on the inability to ride, the obscene racism, the severely limited choice of clans, and whatever other disadvantages they suffer. Since far more players choose combat type characters than non-combat, and with the elven race being very unattractive to them, this may in turn deter players of non-combat characters from choosing the race due to the prohibitively small number of potential associates, even though the race is perfectly fine for rogue classes, magickers and merchants. Is this theory all wrong?
An unfortunate trend here seems to be the practice of digging up completely anecdotal evidence to dispute an argument. So there were some badass elven warriors called Kija and Sharak; how many others have there been? I've never heard of any, and I certainly haven't ever seen any myself. Some of these threads had some seemingly sound arguments but were typically countered with retorts along the lines of "well, Sharak was really badass, so you're just wrong". Surely a diligent player of a long-lived character will succeed no matter what race or guild they choose. If the richest character in the history of a game was a half-giant merchant, that doesn't mean half-giants are excellent merchants. Fortunately, they aren't meant to be. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem right to me that elves should be so poor fighters that barely anyone plays them. Plenty of people play dwarves, and it's not as if that race has anything at all going for it except for hefty boosts to the "right" stats.
Would making the elven race more appealing to aspiring warriors possibly strengthen the potential for a racial society to build up? I mean, dwarves have it the other way around: great stats, no culture whatsoever, and there's quite a lot of them. Elves have excellent potential for culture in both cities, but seemingly poor stats, and hardly anyone plays them. Maybe I'm missing a piece of this puzzle?
People who don't play elves tend to fall into one of two categories: either they understand the elven race mindset and they don't like it, or they don't understand the elven race mindset and don't have the time to learn.
Those who learn the elven mindset and love it tend to be habitual elven players, myself included. Do I only play elves? No. I dabble in other races, I enjoy them, but I tend to have more fun playing elves, so that's what I stick with. I think this is true for a great many players on both sides of the fence.
Then you have the people who don't care about the mindset, or learning it, and just want to be the biggest dick on the block. Those people tend to go with dwarves. Why? Because dwarves are hardasses, and everyone knows it. Why don't they go with half giants or muls? Commonly this is because staff understands that they're all about 'winning the game.' This is a major deterrent to karma gain.
The reason why Sharak and Kija ended up being such hardasses was because of rigorous training and excellent player knowledge. They understood that the elven strength is not in the arms, but in the legs. When the going gets rough, you fucking haul ass out of there and come back with homies, or you lurk and you wait for the perfect moment. Humans can kick in a door and clean house, because they're strong, smart, and have the hitpoints to back up a long fight. Dwarves can do this as well. An elf has to use the environment and natural cunning to prevail, which is as it should be. Elves should be thinkers more than fighters... that's how they've survived this long.
If you're playing an elf, count on not toe-to-toe'ing a damn thing for a while. Even as a warrior, it takes patience and persistence to become a real tough bastard.
Oh... and by the way, there have been TONS of badass elves. The difference is that elven players that have badass PCs realize that the fewer people who know about them, the fewer people will come after them. There are elves around all the time that can give both Kija and Sharak a run for their money, or even slap them around like a little bitch, but they don't advertise it. This, as well, is the elven way.
I had a long rant written up, but I decided to pare it down to this:
Since this thread is already long on rants and short on suggestions, I guess I'll offer some constructive fixes:
1) Every city-elf created must be clanned. No more solo city-elves. You roll one, you are in the Jaxa Pah or the Akai S'jirr, period.
2) All city-elves get city hide and sneak to (advanced).
3) City-elves gain the same ability to run in the desert that desert-elves get, but remain limited by lower total stamina, the lack of desert stealth, and the inability to choose the ranger class.
What Mali said.
Also
QuoteIt appears to me that the elven race sacrifices the two most important combat stats in exchange for the other two seemingly less valuable, to the point where an ordinary city elf warrior is just straight up worse than one of any other given race.
Many people think that, they are, in fact, 100% wrong.
I was the player of Tarq, My PC trained Sharak, And LONG before Sharak became special evil dude, he could wipe floor against pretty much anything in the game, including Meks.
Most people are simply not flexible enough to play to strengths and instead go with a certain template. That template might work great with dwarves and humans, but it will totally suck ass with elves.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 15, 2010, 09:12:15 PM
I had a long rant written up, but I decided to pare it down to this:
Since this thread is already long on rants and short on suggestions, I guess I'll offer some constructive fixes:
1) Every city-elf created must be clanned. No more solo city-elves. You roll one, you are in the Jaxa Pah or the Akai S'jirr, period.
2) All city-elves get city hide and sneak to (advanced).
3) City-elves gain the same ability to run in the desert that desert-elves get, but remain limited by lower total stamina, the lack of desert stealth, and the inability to choose the ranger class.
Not needed at 'all'. Celves are fine the way they are. They're just different.
So different hardly anyone plays them.
Right, that's just fine. ::)
Quote from: Synthesis on August 15, 2010, 09:12:15 PM
I had a long rant written up, but I decided to pare it down to this:
Since this thread is already long on rants and short on suggestions, I guess I'll offer some constructive fixes:
1) Every city-elf created must be clanned. No more solo city-elves. You roll one, you are in the Jaxa Pah or the Akai S'jirr, period.
2) All city-elves get city hide and sneak to (advanced).
3) City-elves gain the same ability to run in the desert that desert-elves get, but remain limited by lower total stamina, the lack of desert stealth, and the inability to choose the ranger class.
Yeah. That would totally fix the stigma people were complaining about. Give them -all- hide and sneak.
If people made city elves into mini-versions of desert-elves, just as a 0 karma way to make some sort of whatever the hell this would be, I'd be very sad. I likely wouldn't play this race anymore.
What's the point of giving every city-elf the steal skill, without sneak and hide?
In case you never played with it, steal doesn't work worth a shit (even with awesome agility) if you don't have the hide skill to go along with it.
It's basically a giant Ha Ha! newbie trap.
Quote from: Synthesis on August 15, 2010, 11:05:30 PM
What's the point of giving every city-elf the steal skill, without sneak and hide?
In case you never played with it, steal doesn't work worth a shit (even with awesome agility) if you don't have the hide skill to go along with it.
It's basically a giant Ha Ha! newbie trap.
Using it wrong.
Yeah, how about you go ahead and assume I'm not a newbie? ::)
I refuse. Then I would lose my GDB epeen.
No, but seriously? I've found some very nice ways to use city elf steal. It's just important to realize that it's not when -you- want to do it, it's along the lines of the elven mentality. Opportunity knocks, I open the door, I don't open the door and expect opportunity to rush in.
I gotta go ahead and agree with Synthesis' change ideas...but I would suggest making them a 1 karma class. Makes them even in their own unique way with desert elves. And city elven culture is very hard to play correctly so I only think it's proper that atleast 1 karma point is needed to play them.
Elves are supposed to be thiefy sum'bitches.
That's why they get the skill.
I've seen more than a few instances of someone stealing something without hiding or sneaking.
If you don't like it, there are plenty of other races to choose from....
City elves don't need desert-elf running in the desert, 'cause -CITY- elves usually don't play around in the desert.
And I don't see why it would ever be required for c-elves to be in a clan or tribe.... It's easy enough to get in either c-elf tribe anyhow.
Quote from: Qzzrbl on August 16, 2010, 04:20:02 AM
And I don't see why it would ever be required for c-elves to be in a clan or tribe.... It's easy enough to get in either c-elf tribe anyhow.
You actually have experience with this? Working "with" them and part of them are two different things. I dont think the tribes are ment to be easily recruited into.
Quote from: Dar on August 16, 2010, 05:27:22 AM
Quote from: Qzzrbl on August 16, 2010, 04:20:02 AM
And I don't see why it would ever be required for c-elves to be in a clan or tribe.... It's easy enough to get in either c-elf tribe anyhow.
You actually have experience with this? Working "with" them and part of them are two different things. I dont think the tribes are ment to be easily recruited into.
I remember reading somewhere is that all you had to do was e-mail the staff ahead of time for docs and to give them a heads up.
Process is pretty much -just- like d-elf tribes.
But then again, I could be wrong.
I'll look for the link to the thread I read it from.
::Edit::
And, if by chance I'm wrong -- it definitely
should be that way.
I played a burglar that was pretty good at 'steal' and never hid while stealing. I was never arrested. Take that for what you will.
I suspect that a burglar (a professional thief) has a higher cap on his steal skill than your average elf. I know for a fact that my last long-lived non-thiefly city-elf used steal probably hundreds of times, with a success rate of maybe 10%, a "cover" rate of maybe 80%, and a critical fail rate of about 10% when stealing coins from inventory, which I'm assuming is the simplest task to accomplish (after significant usage, and given my knowledge of skill advancement, I can safely say that he was at his racial cap). And when you're the only elf standing in the room, those covers might as well be fails, as far as the average player is concerned. Contrary to this, with one of my assassin c-elves, the steal skill was functional and very useful almost immediately, without much practice, as long as I was hiding when I attempted the theft. I think that's pretty clear evidence not only that hide makes a huge difference, but also that it makes a critical difference with regard to the skill's usefulness.
Giving them all sneak and hide would make sense, since elves are supposed to be a little shady, and as many folks have asserted, typically would use stealth and cunning to overcome their natural lack of strength and endurance. Capping it at advanced would presumably allow it to be useful, but still vulnerable to scan and listen.
As far as desert-running is concerned: the point isn't to make city-elves uber-rangers. It's simply to allow them to travel from city to city a little bit easier. Can you currently walk a city-elf from Allanak to Tuluk? Probably, but it entails a level of risk that is absolutely unacceptable for anyone who knows what they're doing, which means that it's a functional, if not technical impossibility (even a maxed warrior would be taking an unacceptable risk, because if you -do- run out of stamina points, it's a trivial thing for even a relatively newbish ranger to shoot you to death while you're unable to move). It would also allow them to do a bit of minor hunting in close proximity to the city. They wouldn't be able to range far and wide in search of exotic game, but at least a 'nakki city-elf could go out and kill a scrab without having to stop and rest every five rooms. (I'll grant that this is currently do-able around Tuluk, since Tuluk's zones are generally newb-friendly.)
And I'll amend the "all city-elves must be in a tribe" thing to make an exception for magickers.
But all in all, these changes are merely suggested as ways to increase the numbers of city-elves in the game. I can beg all day for people to play more of them, but really...the only things that are going to change demographics over the long term are small to moderate increases in the "cool" factor of the race.
Currently, playing a city-elf is about as cool as (to paraphrase jstorrie, I believe) "pounding your dick with a hammer."
Quote from: titansfan on August 16, 2010, 03:37:17 AM
I gotta go ahead and agree with Synthesis' change ideas...but I would suggest making them a 1 karma class. Makes them even in their own unique way with desert elves. And city elven culture is very hard to play correctly so I only think it's proper that atleast 1 karma point is needed to play them.
This would only serve to reduce the already low numbers of PC elves. Considering that elves are still one of the most populous races in the Known, this would be detrimental rather than beneficial to the over-all race.
Whatever the case and reason, it's pretty clear that city elves aren't attractive enough to players. The race is supposed to be the second most numerous in the world, yet it is by far the least common of all save for muls; that's with the possible exception of the rinth's east side, but they appear to have virtually no influence on the rest of the game and may as well not exist for everyone outside that area. At the same time, there appears to be no crippling shortage of desert elves, a race known for its generous perks and for being well-suited to their environment, rather than existing in spite of it, as seems to be the case with city elves.
One thing I'm wondering is the logic behind the fact that city elves can't ride. This is supposedly because they take pride in their ability to run and not need a mount, but since this is clearly not the case, why the hell would they feel this way? They place such a ridiculous restriction on themselves out of pride in an ability that they don't have? Who are they kidding?
I like the idea of giving them sneak and hide at a functional but not infallible level. Balance aside, it seems odd for a race based wholly around the concept of dishonesty, elusiveness, trickery and theft to not have developed a natural aptitude for inconspicuousness. Also, the ability to run better in the wilderness is a good idea. If they weren't able to, it makes no sense that they would refuse to ride. These two changes alone would certainly make me much more inclined, even tempted, to play one. Since I have no interest in the rinth and am really unimpressed with Tuluk, I would do so in Allanak, yet the only clan that appears to welcome elves there is the Byn, and there's just no way I would bother to do that with the way city elf travel currently works. I'm sure it's doable and has been done before (as three vets will soon smugly inform me) but I just wouldn't care to, as much for my own sake as for the rest of the clan. The prospect of leaving the city with a race that can't move more than fifteen rooms seems absurd, and the inability to leave the city is hugely deterring.
The point isn't to entice players to play them by skill/stat/powerz boosts.
The point is to get more players interested in playing the race because the race kicks ass and has an awesome amount of culture.
Quote from: Malifaxis on August 16, 2010, 05:07:28 PM
The point isn't to entice players to play them by skill/stat/powerz boosts.
The point is to get more players interested in playing the race because the race kicks ass and has an awesome amount of culture.
You think that's gonna work?
(In fairness, all this talk about elves makes me want to play one. In unfairness, the chance of it being a mundane combatant is about 1%.)
Quote from: Malifaxis on August 16, 2010, 05:07:28 PM
The point is to get more players interested in playing the race because the race kicks ass and has an awesome amount of culture.
Well, it appears that people don't find the kickass racial culture enough of an encouragement to play it.
I do think that leaving city elves desert-nerfed is a decent way of keeping them inside the walls, where they belong.
Quote from: Malifaxis on August 16, 2010, 05:07:28 PM
The point isn't to entice players to play them by skill/stat/powerz boosts.
The point is to get more players interested in playing the race because the race kicks ass and has an awesome amount of culture.
QFT.
And yes, it is going to work. People who are attracted to the skill/stat/powerz, can play dwarves :). People who are interested for a unique and challenging role, will be attracted to Celves.
Quote from: Qeynos on August 16, 2010, 05:19:20 PM
Quote from: Malifaxis on August 16, 2010, 05:07:28 PM
The point is to get more players interested in playing the race because the race kicks ass and has an awesome amount of culture.
Well, it appears that people don't find the kickass racial culture enough of an encouragement to play it.
That's because there's a bunch of dunderheads who are still determined to try to 'win' the game instead of just enjoying playing it in all of its various forms.
Quote from: Malifaxis on August 16, 2010, 05:33:50 PM
Quote from: Qeynos on August 16, 2010, 05:19:20 PM
Quote from: Malifaxis on August 16, 2010, 05:07:28 PM
The point is to get more players interested in playing the race because the race kicks ass and has an awesome amount of culture.
Well, it appears that people don't find the kickass racial culture enough of an encouragement to play it.
That's because there's a bunch of dunderheads who are still determined to try to 'win' the game instead of just enjoying playing it in all of its various forms.
You're being unfair to the silent majority of dunderheads. Playing a character who, in their deluded daydreams, could achieve Great Greatness and be spoken of in Hushed Tones at APMs is one of the primary ways many people have fun.
Potential coded power is like physical beauty. It's useful in about 1% of daily life, but people pick it over everything else time after time.
Quote from: Malifaxis on August 16, 2010, 05:33:50 PM
That's because there's a bunch of dunderheads who are still determined to try to 'win' the game instead of just enjoying playing it in all of its various forms.
So the reason for the shortage of elves is essentially that the quality of roleplayers in this game isn't good enough to keep a challenging race at a playable level of activity? I'm not disinclined to believe that, but it sure is unfortunate either way.
I'm not convinced that there is a shortage of city elves currently; we see a lot of them coming through the application queue. Yes, there may be a shortage of city elves in one particular area, but that does not mean there is an overall shortage. There also may be a shortage of long-lived city elves, but that's because most characters of any race don't live long at all. The implementation of playable, ICly-joinable city elf clans in both cities has really helped make city elves a much more attractive option, from what I can see.
Well, we've had this thread (and the one that got locked) giving them special publicity for the last couple months. ;) All the hubbub has certainly gotten me interested in trying one.
Well, those elves must be doing their job. There are whole RL days where I don't see a single one, and if it's not because there aren't any, it must be because they're succesfully being elves.
Quote from: Malifaxis on August 16, 2010, 05:07:28 PM
The point isn't to entice players to play them by skill/stat/powerz boosts.
The point is to get more players interested in playing the race because the race kicks ass and has an awesome amount of culture.
Listen to Malifaxis, he's one sharp dude.
A decent elf-player will be able to pull off an elf with decent stats.
An amazing elf-player will be able to pull off any elf with poor stats across the board.
After thinking about it a bit, I could see where c-elves have developed an aptitude for stealth....
I give that idea +1.
But as far as any running ability whatsoever outside of cities, no.... Just no.
City-elves are meant to be city-bound.
That's their culture, that's their lifestyle, that's their livelihood, that's their home, that's where they belong.
Why don't they ride mounts? Because they don't need to. They don't want to. The only time a c-elf would ever need a mount is to go outside of the city to do stuff, which they ordinarily shouldn't do, ever. C-elves should steal, kill, bargain, and bullshit their way into getting anything they ever need.
Traveling from city-to-city? I could see why some elves would want to do this. Business could be better in one area as opposed to another.
Get pack mounts to carry your shit and travel in groups.
Don't have friends to group with? You're doing something wrong.... Smart c-elves would make friends, gain trust, and maybe.... Just -maaaybe- return a bit of mutual trust and kindness. It's not easy, but after playing for so long and having an elven right-hand-man for a human character or two, a well-played c-elf whose trust tests you pass and actually befriends you will be your best friend ever hands-down.
C-elves are hard to play, true.
But, I'd imagine anyone who manages to play one well would wind up -drowning- in kudos and karma.
I've played a long-time city elf that wasn't locked down in a city, and I have strong opinions where city elf playability is concerned.
I think City Elves are fine just the way they are for the most part, except their coded ability to run only in the cities without much cost.
It's my belief that even city elves should be able to run in the desert at the same reduced cost as desert elves, as their naturally lower total stamina would be enough of a difference to continue to justify desert elves being superior desert runners. City elves properly equipped and outfitted for the desert should be decently mobile, at the very least being able to outpace a mere human or dwarf in the sands.
At least a couple of clans elves may belong to in this game often head into the wide open wastes, putting city elven characters not only at a disadvantage, but often as a burden to commanders in terms of group mobility over the longer haul.