To discuss or ask questions about this announced change (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48618.0.html).
(http://i.imgur.com/zEF6W1u.gif)
(http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20141125020030/legomessageboards/images/6/64/I_like_it.jpg)
Wooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooh!
Reading between the lines, this means that there is no longer a restriction of 3 Skill Bumps / Application? So if you have 6 karma, you could (in theory) use all 6 CGP on an application to boost skills across the board? (With current restrictions in place regarding weapons skills, etc.)
Quote from: Down Under on January 08, 2015, 04:08:05 PM
Reading between the lines, this means that there is no longer a restriction of 3 Skill Bumps / Application? So if you have 6 karma, you could (in theory) use all 6 CGP on an application to boost skills across the board? (With current restrictions in place regarding weapons skills, etc.)
Yes - as long as your main guild costs 0 karma, you take no extended subguild and your race costs no karma.
Mostly correct...
If you have 6 karma, you can do one of the following:
apply for any combination of race/guild that gets you to 6 karma, where applicable
apply for an extended subguild and a 0 karma race/guild selection AND get 6 skill bumps, where applicable
apply for skill bumps for a 0 karma race/guild combo, and get 9 skill bumps, where applicable
So Half giants (even if you have the option through your karma) counts as 4 karma towards the application, correct?
Er, CGP. Karma. You know.
If Malik has eight karma can he play a half giant sorc? (Because that would be awesome.)
Quote from: Barzalene on January 08, 2015, 04:11:39 PM
If Malik has eight karma can he play a half giant sorc? (Because that would be awesome.)
Sorcerers are required to be human aren't they?
Also, will this open up the ceiling of karma from 8 to 8+?
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 04:12:15 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on January 08, 2015, 04:11:39 PM
If Malik has eight karma can he play a half giant sorc? (Because that would be awesome.)
Sorcerers are required to be human aren't they?
Yes, but... I had to ask.
Quote from: Down Under on January 08, 2015, 04:11:13 PM
So Half giants (even if you have the option through your karma) counts as 4 karma towards the application, correct?
Half-giants are 3 karma. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are asking?
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 04:12:15 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on January 08, 2015, 04:11:39 PM
If Malik has eight karma can he play a half giant sorc? (Because that would be awesome.)
Sorcerers are required to be human aren't they?
No. This isn't the case. But if Malik has 8 karma he cannot be a HG sorcerer as HG costs 3 CGP and sorcerer costs 8CGP.
Quote from: Nyr on January 08, 2015, 04:14:25 PM
Quote from: Down Under on January 08, 2015, 04:11:13 PM
So Half giants (even if you have the option through your karma) counts as 4 karma towards the application, correct?
Half-giants are 3 karma. Unless I am misunderstanding what you are asking?
Herp, derp. 3 karma.
But it would count as 3 towards the application, right?
Quote from: Rathustra on January 08, 2015, 04:15:05 PM
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 04:12:15 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on January 08, 2015, 04:11:39 PM
If Malik has eight karma can he play a half giant sorc? (Because that would be awesome.)
Sorcerers are required to be human aren't they?
No. This isn't the case. But if Malik has 8 karma he cannot be a HG sorcerer as HG costs 3 CGP and sorcerer costs 8CGP.
But he could spec-app, right?
Quote from: Down Under on January 08, 2015, 04:12:20 PM
Also, will this open up the ceiling of karma from 8 to 8+?
Someone spec. apping with 8 account karma gets 11 points to spend on their character, yes.
+ 3 no?
I figured if you had 8 karma you could have previously apped a HG sorc, unless I'm mistaken... seems like that wouldn't change. Maybe I misunderstood something somewhere.
How will/does this affect extended subguild apps filed before the change?
Quote from: Fujikoma on January 08, 2015, 04:19:38 PM
I figured if you had 8 karma you could have previously apped a HG sorc, unless I'm mistaken... seems like that wouldn't change. Maybe I misunderstood something somewhere.
Quote from: Fujikoma on January 08, 2015, 04:16:18 PM
Quote from: Rathustra on January 08, 2015, 04:15:05 PM
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 04:12:15 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on January 08, 2015, 04:11:39 PM
If Malik has eight karma can he play a half giant sorc? (Because that would be awesome.)
Sorcerers are required to be human aren't they?
No. This isn't the case. But if Malik has 8 karma he cannot be a HG sorcerer as HG costs 3 CGP and sorcerer costs 8CGP.
But he could spec-app, right?
Yes, correct. Sorry I can't maths apparently - 8 (sorc) + 3 (hg) = 11, which is our current CGP limit.
Quote from: Patuk on January 08, 2015, 04:20:39 PM
How will/does this affect extended subguild apps filed before the change?
If you have an extended subguild request in queue now, you can reply to it to request skill bumps if you are eligible.
The following would not be possible, is that correct?
Player with 4 karma. Applies for a human (0 karma) Rukkian (2 karma) with an Outdoorsman extended subguild (3 cpg) and 2 skill bumps to, say, forage (2 karma worth of skill bumps).
Quote from: Rathustra on January 08, 2015, 04:22:42 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on January 08, 2015, 04:19:38 PM
I figured if you had 8 karma you could have previously apped a HG sorc, unless I'm mistaken... seems like that wouldn't change. Maybe I misunderstood something somewhere.
Quote from: Fujikoma on January 08, 2015, 04:16:18 PM
Quote from: Rathustra on January 08, 2015, 04:15:05 PM
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 04:12:15 PM
Quote from: Barzalene on January 08, 2015, 04:11:39 PM
If Malik has eight karma can he play a half giant sorc? (Because that would be awesome.)
Sorcerers are required to be human aren't they?
No. This isn't the case. But if Malik has 8 karma he cannot be a HG sorcerer as HG costs 3 CGP and sorcerer costs 8CGP.
But he could spec-app, right?
Yes, correct. Sorry I can't maths apparently - 8 (sorc) + 3 (hg) = 11, which is our current CGP limit.
GO MALIK, GO!
Quote from: Eyeball on January 08, 2015, 04:25:48 PM
The following would not be possible, is that correct?
Player with 4 karma. Applies for a human (0 karma) Rukkian (2 karma) with an Outdoorsman extended subguild (3 cpg) and 2 skill bumps to, say, forage (2 karma worth of skill bumps).
That is a possible concept. The player has 7CGP to spend (4 account karma +3 bonus CGP for spec. app.):
-2 for guild,
-3 for subguild,
-1 for one bump,
-1 for second bump,
= 7 CGP in total.
So do I need 4 karma for a half-giant Rukkian, or can Iapply as normal if iI only have 3?
Quote from: MeTekillot on January 08, 2015, 04:30:08 PM
So do I need 4 karma for a half-giant Rukkian, or can Iapply as normal if iI only have 3?
Currently this system is running parallel to existing code in the MUD itself. So if you have 3k on your account you can currently play characters that will eventually cost 5CGP - such as HG rukkians. This isn't a bug, just an artefact of us introducing a new system manually as the code is worked on.
Edit: Also under the new system you will need 5CGP for a rukkian HG - 2CGP for the guild + 3CGP for the race.
I'm pretty sure a HG rukkian falls outside this system to anyone with 5+ karma, is specappable for the people with 2-4, and is unplayable for people with 1 or 0 karma.
Quote from: Patuk on January 08, 2015, 04:33:24 PM
I'm pretty sure a HG rukkian falls outside this system to anyone with 5+ karma, is specappable for the people with 2-4, and is unplayable for people with 1 or 0 karma.
Correct - if you use this system and send in a spec. app. you'll not be able to afford a HG viv/rukkian unless you have at least 2 karma.
So if I understand it correctly the amount of CGP you will be capped at still depends on the arbitrary doling out of karma by staff, plus 3 for a special application. Is there any plan to change the karma additions to a review process or something that is more transparent to players?
Or maybe in the future karma will be done away with altogether in favor of CGP (plus or minus a few tweaks)?
Quote from: Orin on January 08, 2015, 04:53:27 PM
So if I understand it correctly the amount of CGP you will be capped at still depends on the arbitrary doling out of karma by staff, plus 3 for a special application. Is there any plan to change the karma additions to a review process or something that is more transparent to players?
Or maybe in the future karma will be done away with altogether in favor of CGP (plus or minus a few tweaks)?
Nope - CGP is basically just karma under a new name! Karma also still represents trust invested in a player by staff, so it will remain doled out by staff. How arbitrary this process is can be debated - we follow a set of guidelines that we hope ensure that karma is given to players who deserve the trust it embodies. There is a sort of review process at the moment - you can submit an account notes request and ask for a karma review. We'll compare your current karma to our set of guidelines and discuss whether or not more karma is warranted - then grant it.
Have we considered maybe adjusting some of the karma levels for classes so that they aren't so easily available to everyone?
My primary concern is whirans, which were moved up the chain and out of the reach of most people for very good reasons...just became available to everyone at least once a year who has a minimum of three karma....which leaves me with sad feelings.
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 05:05:19 PM
Have we considered maybe adjusting some of the karma levels for classes so that they aren't so easily available to everyone?
My primary concern is whirans, which were moved up the chain and out of the reach of most people for very good reasons...just became available to everyone at least once a year who has a minimum of three karma....which leaves me with sad feelings.
They were available to those same people prior to this announcement. For the last couple of years the rule has been you may special app something that is within 3 points of your current karma level.
Quote from: Adhira on January 08, 2015, 05:06:57 PM
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 05:05:19 PM
Have we considered maybe adjusting some of the karma levels for classes so that they aren't so easily available to everyone?
My primary concern is whirans, which were moved up the chain and out of the reach of most people for very good reasons...just became available to everyone at least once a year who has a minimum of three karma....which leaves me with sad feelings.
They were available to those same people prior to this announcement. For the last couple of years the rule has been you may special app something that is within 3 points of your current karma level.
That makes me feel better. I had not considered this.
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 05:05:19 PM
Have we considered maybe adjusting some of the karma levels for classes so that they aren't so easily available to everyone?
My primary concern is whirans, which were moved up the chain and out of reach of most people for very good reasons...just became available to everyone at least once a year who has a minimum of three karma....which leaves me with sad feelings.
This isn't different to how it was before this? You have always been able to apply for things 3 karma levels above your current level. Anyone who has wanted to play a whiran has needed at least 3 karma to spec. app. a whiran since we adjusted its karma level. Note that just because you special app. for something within 3 karma does not mean you're going to get it. We assess what your application brings to the game, current levels of a given guild in the game at the time and your history as a player before we grant special applications. The level of scrutiny applied increases the further your desired guild is from your current karma.
Quote from: Rathustra on January 08, 2015, 05:08:51 PM
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 05:05:19 PM
Have we considered maybe adjusting some of the karma levels for classes so that they aren't so easily available to everyone?
My primary concern is whirans, which were moved up the chain and out of reach of most people for very good reasons...just became available to everyone at least once a year who has a minimum of three karma....which leaves me with sad feelings.
This isn't different to how it was before this? You have always been able to apply for things 3 karma levels above your current level. Anyone who has wanted to play a whiran has needed at least 3 karma to spec. app. a whiran since we adjusted its karma level. Note that just because you special app. for something within 3 karma does not mean you're going to get it. We assess what your application brings to the game, current levels of a given guild in the game at the time and your history as a player before we grant special applications. The level of scrutiny applied increases the further your desired guild is from your current karma.
I herped when I should have derped. Thank you for the reply. All is well in the world on Desertman's front once again. :)
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 05:12:01 PM
Quote from: Rathustra on January 08, 2015, 05:08:51 PM
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 05:05:19 PM
Have we considered maybe adjusting some of the karma levels for classes so that they aren't so easily available to everyone?
My primary concern is whirans, which were moved up the chain and out of reach of most people for very good reasons...just became available to everyone at least once a year who has a minimum of three karma....which leaves me with sad feelings.
This isn't different to how it was before this? You have always been able to apply for things 3 karma levels above your current level. Anyone who has wanted to play a whiran has needed at least 3 karma to spec. app. a whiran since we adjusted its karma level. Note that just because you special app. for something within 3 karma does not mean you're going to get it. We assess what your application brings to the game, current levels of a given guild in the game at the time and your history as a player before we grant special applications. The level of scrutiny applied increases the further your desired guild is from your current karma.
I herped when I should have derped. Thank you for the reply. All is well in the world on Desertman's front once again. :)
Yeah, whoops - didn't mean to double team you there. Hopefully the extra stuff about our procedure for granting guilds is helpful though.
Quote from: Rathustra on January 08, 2015, 05:13:07 PM
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 05:12:01 PM
Quote from: Rathustra on January 08, 2015, 05:08:51 PM
Quote from: Desertman on January 08, 2015, 05:05:19 PM
Have we considered maybe adjusting some of the karma levels for classes so that they aren't so easily available to everyone?
My primary concern is whirans, which were moved up the chain and out of reach of most people for very good reasons...just became available to everyone at least once a year who has a minimum of three karma....which leaves me with sad feelings.
This isn't different to how it was before this? You have always been able to apply for things 3 karma levels above your current level. Anyone who has wanted to play a whiran has needed at least 3 karma to spec. app. a whiran since we adjusted its karma level. Note that just because you special app. for something within 3 karma does not mean you're going to get it. We assess what your application brings to the game, current levels of a given guild in the game at the time and your history as a player before we grant special applications. The level of scrutiny applied increases the further your desired guild is from your current karma.
I herped when I should have derped. Thank you for the reply. All is well in the world on Desertman's front once again. :)
Yeah, whoops - didn't mean to double team you there. Hopefully the extra stuff about our procedure for granting guilds is helpful though.
Yar yar. Gracias.
How do I know how much karma I have? Do I have to ask each time (which takes weeks sometimes to get a response since less prioritized), or is there an easy coded way to learn this? Thanks,
Quote from: najdorf on January 08, 2015, 05:44:35 PM
How do I know how much karma I have? Do I have to ask each time (which takes weeks sometimes to get a response since less prioritized), or is there an easy coded way to learn this? Thanks,
If your karma had been increased or decreased since your last account notes request, you would have received an email about it. So you can look at your last account notes request to see what your current karma is.
Wonderful change. Kudos.
Quote from: najdorf on January 08, 2015, 05:44:35 PM
How do I know how much karma I have? Do I have to ask each time (which takes weeks sometimes to get a response since less prioritized), or is there an easy coded way to learn this? Thanks,
Open your mud client.
Connect to Arm, put in your user name and password.
The first menu you see after that, select o (the letter o, not the number 0)
You'll see all the guild/race options you have - you can compare with the help file on karma options to see the numeric value of your karma.
Does this mean you're only accepting Skill Bumps as starting out characters? I thought in some cases Skill Bumps are granted to existing older characters or am I just missing something here?
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on January 08, 2015, 06:45:59 PM
Does this mean you're only accepting Skill Bumps as starting out characters? I thought in some cases Skill Bumps are granted to existing older characters or am I just missing something here?
Unless I'm corrected I don't believe we grant skill bumps as part of the special application process except to new characters. There is a mostly antiquated 'Skill Change' request where you can petition for a skill change to an existing character, citing roleplay or other circumstance - but these are rarely approved except for bugs or previously approved situations (perhaps agreed upon as part of an 'old style' special application or role application).
(http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view2/1105684/big-gulps-huh-o.gif)
HOLY SHIT GUYS THIS IS LIKE EXACTLY WHAT I WAS ASKING FOR.
I'm so excited, there's a ton of great possibilities. Being able to spend that many cgp on skills alone is now a HUGE factor. And being able to do BOTH that and Extended subguild blew my mind.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 08, 2015, 07:02:14 PM
HOLY SHIT GUYS THIS IS LIKE EXACTLY WHAT I WAS ASKING FOR
Like watching a kid on Christmas morning.
This is WAY better than my Christmas was. What I'm most excited for is bumping up the skills that are for jobs so you can go in immediately with a useful skill.
You can start out the game with master forage and become an insane salter. Or Start with master cooking and instantly start up a food business. Master Scan and you're a you're now the AoD's #1 spider-avoider. Master Ride and you're now a Inix wrangler.
The possibilities to just jump into the game and be useful is fucking awesome.
Yeah honestly I have only one problem with all of this.
It wasn't announced on April 1st.
So you want it to not be real? ???
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 08, 2015, 07:42:00 PM
This is WAY better than my Christmas was. What I'm most excited for is bumping up the skills that are for jobs so you can go in immediately with a useful skill.
You can start out the game with master forage and become an insane salter. Or Start with master cooking and instantly start up a food business. Master Scan and you're a you're now the AoD's #1 spider-avoider. Master Ride and you're now a Inix wrangler.
The possibilities to just jump into the game and be useful is fucking awesome.
Could've sworn I remember reading that the cap on skill bumps is journeyman.
I think that's for combat skills.
Some skills will be limited/restricted from being bumped. For instance, weapon skills and some combat skills will not be bump-able more than twice each; the same goes for hide, sneak, steal, and backstab. Offense/defense will not be an option for bumping.
As I understand, for -each time- we create a character we will have CGP equal to our Karma score and via special app. may have up to karma +3 CGP. I mean still karma scores are not something that is spent right?
Quote from: Gaare on January 09, 2015, 01:15:56 AM
As I understand, for -each time- we create a character we will have CGP equal to our Karma score and via special app. may have up to karma +3 CGP. I mean still karma scores are not something that is spent right?
For now I think that's correct. I believe the future goal is to have it be a currency that regenerates at a fixed rate of time...to naturally limit the higher karma roles into being more scarce.
Quote from: wizturbo on January 09, 2015, 04:04:52 AM
Quote from: Gaare on January 09, 2015, 01:15:56 AM
As I understand, for -each time- we create a character we will have CGP equal to our Karma score and via special app. may have up to karma +3 CGP. I mean still karma scores are not something that is spent right?
For now I think that's correct. I believe the future goal is to have it be a currency that regenerates at a fixed rate of time...to naturally limit the higher karma roles into being more scarce.
Thank you!
Quote from: Gaare on January 09, 2015, 04:14:10 AM
Quote from: wizturbo on January 09, 2015, 04:04:52 AM
Quote from: Gaare on January 09, 2015, 01:15:56 AM
As I understand, for -each time- we create a character we will have CGP equal to our Karma score and via special app. may have up to karma +3 CGP. I mean still karma scores are not something that is spent right?
For now I think that's correct. I believe the future goal is to have it be a currency that regenerates at a fixed rate of time...to naturally limit the higher karma roles into being more scarce.
Thank you!
Just to make sure this is perfectly clear, it is each time you create a character using a CGP application (extended subguild/special app/skill bump request types).
QuoteWhat are the restrictions on CGP applications?
Each player has three total CGP applications they may use per RL year period at a rate of no greater than one per month period. This means that you must wait at least one RL month between one CGP application and the next. If you file a CGP application in January 2014, April 2014, and May 2014, your slots for CGP applications will be full until January 2015 (at which point, one will open up). In April 2015, another will open up. In May 2015, the last one will open up.
I am fairly certain that this was well understood but I wanted to makes sure that there wasn't any expectation set based on the "-each time- we create a character" statement. Though it can be each time if you are only going through 3 characters per RL year and they are spaced at least one month apart!
Thanks!
Quote from: Nathvaan on January 09, 2015, 06:18:55 AM
Just to make sure this is perfectly clear, it is each time you create a character using a CGP application (extended subguild/special app/skill bump request types).
QuoteWhat are the restrictions on CGP applications?
Each player has three total CGP applications they may use per RL year period at a rate of no greater than one per month period. This means that you must wait at least one RL month between one CGP application and the next. If you file a CGP application in January 2014, April 2014, and May 2014, your slots for CGP applications will be full until January 2015 (at which point, one will open up). In April 2015, another will open up. In May 2015, the last one will open up.
I am fairly certain that this was well understood but I wanted to makes sure that there wasn't any expectation set based on the "-each time- we create a character" statement. Though it can be each time if you are only going through 3 characters per RL year and they are spaced at least one month apart!
Thanks!
Under the old special application process which also had the limited number over time restriction, my understanding was that one could submit and get a special application approved, but not actually create the character just yet - this was useful for preparing a concept and approval ahead of time, if one already had an existing character. This applied for the Ext Subguild process if I'm not mistaken as well, but that was always a much shorter process than a spec app anyway. Is there a similar distinction between submitting and/or getting a CGP application approved and actually creating the character, since CGP apps potentially combine special applications in terms of the time limit restriction?
For clarity:
(a) Can one hold a pending approved special CGP application for future use as well?
(b) Can one do the same for a non-special CGP application?
(c) When does the clock start for the date limitations: when the application is submitted? Approved? Or when the actual character using the approval is created?
(d) Does the answer to (c) apply to both special and non-special CGP applications?
As an aside, in the original post on the topic, Nyr mentioned to check one's score to confirm the correct subguild was applied - is there also a change going in for the score display to show guild/subguild? If not and he meant to check one's skills instead, I don't think it'd be a terrible addition to the game to have the former, actually, for that very purpose. Or does it actually show in one's score and I'm somehow blind or not using the command properly?
Thanks in advance!
Quote from: Qzzrbl on January 08, 2015, 09:18:16 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 08, 2015, 07:42:00 PM
This is WAY better than my Christmas was. What I'm most excited for is bumping up the skills that are for jobs so you can go in immediately with a useful skill.
You can start out the game with master forage and become an insane salter. Or Start with master cooking and instantly start up a food business. Master Scan and you're a you're now the AoD's #1 spider-avoider. Master Ride and you're now a Inix wrangler.
The possibilities to just jump into the game and be useful is fucking awesome.
Could've sworn I remember reading that the cap on skill bumps is journeyman.
There was, but it was under the old policy. I don't see anything like that in the new policy.
(a) Yes. If you are approved for such an application in the request tool you may play it at any point in the future. We did initially want players to play them more quickly when we were intent on getting some results from testing. At this time that is no longer the expectation.
(b) I am not sure what you are asking here. Can you have a PC be approved for play and not play it? Yes. I think that may be what you are asking, but I am not sure.
(c) Date of submission. However, this can be a little bit flaky. Might need Nathvaan to confirm exactly how it works, because my own understanding is not exact on this. In fact, when players have pointed out that it didn't work as indicated (waited 30 days, or a full calendar month, and it didn't let them submit another), my best reply has been "well, wait 24 hours and try again," at which point it works...
(d) I am not sure what you are asking here. There is no coded restriction on normal applications.
As for checking your score, oops! I did mean skills, definitely check your skills.
why do all the good implementations come in just after I start playing a spec app? :P
You guys rock.
Quote from: Nyr on January 09, 2015, 10:54:48 AM
(c) Date of submission. However, this can be a little bit flaky. Might need Nathvaan to confirm exactly how it works, because my own understanding is not exact on this. In fact, when players have pointed out that it didn't work as indicated (waited 30 days, or a full calendar month, and it didn't let them submit another), my best reply has been "well, wait 24 hours and try again," at which point it works...
I don't have the bandwidth to dig into this deeper at the moment but I suspect that it is set to roll over at 31 days, which means some months it will be one month + 24 hrs.
Aw damn, I thought I had one of these coming up but I'm going to have to wait an extra month?
It stings!
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 09, 2015, 01:03:54 PM
Aw damn, I thought I had one of these coming up but I'm going to have to wait an extra month?
It stings!
It can't hurt to confirm with staff when you should be able to file another. That way if it is actually sooner than you expect, you can file it sooner.
Will you be taking age into account?
Like if I want to play a 12 year old militia recruit human warrior with advanced parry and advanced slashing and I have 4+ karma, is that possible?
We don't let people play characters younger than 13, but no, we aren't taking age into account for this beyond that.
One wouldn't be able to bump slashing to advanced anyway, though, from what I gather.
Quote from: Nyr on January 09, 2015, 02:17:28 PM
One wouldn't be able to bump slashing to advanced anyway, though, from what I gather.
Even considering certain chargen bonuses applied by a character's starting location?
Quote from: Nyr on January 09, 2015, 02:17:28 PM
We don't let people play characters younger than 13, but no, we aren't taking age into account for this beyond that.
One wouldn't be able to bump slashing to advanced anyway, though, from what I gather.
Oh yeah, I meant 13..
I figured that a warrior would start at like apprentice slashing so +1 to journeyman then +1 to advanced for a total of 2 CGP but then I don't really know what are the starting skill levels for every classes.
If you want to play a 13 year old would-be Muk Utep with 11 skill bumps then go for it. Your capabilities will directly relate to the trust we have in you as a player. If you get in game and play the character in a bizarre or unrealistic way we'll handle it like anything else!
It's a pretty boss concept though - the kid destined for greatness....
Weapons skills are subject to restrictions--no more than two bumps, and since they do not scale the same way as most other skills, they won't necessarily be skills that would see a bump from "apprentice" straight up to "advanced." (The equivalent would probably be somewhere high in the journeyman level.) But still, that's quite a bump--nearly equivalent to some sponsored military role setups I've seen, at least in that one area.
Quote from: Nyr on January 09, 2015, 10:54:48 AM
(a) Yes. If you are approved for such an application in the request tool you may play it at any point in the future. We did initially want players to play them more quickly when we were intent on getting some results from testing. At this time that is no longer the expectation.
(b) I am not sure what you are asking here. Can you have a PC be approved for play and not play it? Yes. I think that may be what you are asking, but I am not sure.
(c) Date of submission. However, this can be a little bit flaky. Might need Nathvaan to confirm exactly how it works, because my own understanding is not exact on this. In fact, when players have pointed out that it didn't work as indicated (waited 30 days, or a full calendar month, and it didn't let them submit another), my best reply has been "well, wait 24 hours and try again," at which point it works...
(d) I am not sure what you are asking here. There is no coded restriction on normal applications.
As for checking your score, oops! I did mean skills, definitely check your skills.
Sorry, wasn't fully awake this morning and for whatever reason the had the idea in my head that special apps were distinct, thanks Nyr.
I didn't see this anywhere else so I will ask here incase other people were wondering.
When you have sent in a request for an Ext. Subguild and have been approved, does it matter what subguild you pick when you actually create the character? Should we pick something close to what the Ext Subguild would be or just any random subguild that staff can easily change prior to approving the character for actual play? Just wondering if it's a simple change from subguild linguist to ext subguild aggressor, or if you had to manually add each skill and remove the ones from the normal subguild.
I saw in the approval email for my request that I should check the skills in the Hall of Kings once in game, which is why I picked something not related to the Ext Subguild in order to easily notice that the Ext Subguild has been added.
Just wondering what would be easier for staff to do, or if it doesn't really matter which one we choose at creation.
Usually it says in the acceptance to just pick any, but make sure to note that you were approved for blah with request number blah in your background.
Quote from: wildhalfling on January 24, 2015, 09:20:40 AM
I didn't see this anywhere else so I will ask here incase other people were wondering.
When you have sent in a request for an Ext. Subguild and have been approved, does it matter what subguild you pick when you actually create the character? Should we pick something close to what the Ext Subguild would be or just any random subguild that staff can easily change prior to approving the character for actual play? Just wondering if it's a simple change from subguild linguist to ext subguild aggressor, or if you had to manually add each skill and remove the ones from the normal subguild.
I saw in the approval email for my request that I should check the skills in the Hall of Kings once in game, which is why I picked something not related to the Ext Subguild in order to easily notice that the Ext Subguild has been added.
Just wondering what would be easier for staff to do, or if it doesn't really matter which one we choose at creation.
It doesn't matter which one you choose as long as you do this:
QuoteYou will need to include the request # in your PC's background and detail "approved for extended subguild X" where X is the subguild you were approved for.
Quote from: Nyr on January 26, 2015, 09:05:56 AM
Quote from: wildhalfling on January 24, 2015, 09:20:40 AM
When you have sent in a request for an Ext. Subguild and have been approved, does it matter what subguild you pick when you actually create the character?
It doesn't matter which one you choose as long as you do this:
QuoteYou will need to include the request # in your PC's background and detail "approved for extended subguild X" where X is the subguild you were approved for.
Would the same apply if you spec app'd for a higher karma race or guild, were approved, and now wanted to add skill bumps and/or something else that required CGPs, like a Karma-required guild or race? Or would it just be easier to burn a new spec app?
eg Player is at 0 Karma, app'd a Delf, got approved, and would now be eligible (at 0+3 CGP) to play a Delf Rukkian? Which would not have been a viable option before.
Am I correct that since all special applications now count as CGP applications, there's no reason NOT to put any leftover CGP from my race/guild choice into skill bumps?
Quote from: Thunkkin on February 12, 2015, 07:29:58 AM
Am I correct that since all special applications now count as CGP applications, there's no reason NOT to put any leftover CGP from my race/guild choice into skill bumps?
Yeah - unspent CGP in special applications are not carried forward so there's no reason not to (outside of wanting to for difficulty's sake).
Just wanting to confirm: There is no difference between GCP and special apps, right?
The whole system seems to have undergone a few changes since I was last around.
Quote from: John on February 23, 2015, 11:30:53 AM
Just wanting to confirm: There is no difference between GCP and special apps, right?
The whole system seems to have undergone a few changes since I was last around.
Correct, Close to make use of your CGP, you need to enter a
special app/extended subguild app where you explain out how you plan to expend your karma + 3CGP in build out of your new character [karma for race/guild + extended subguild + bumps as appropriate].
ETA: If you want a guild or race outside your karma range you still need to spec-app that.Each extended sub-guild has a CGP cost of 3 for this purpose, which varies from the explained cost of the subguild in some cases in the help file.
You can still build out a character with no skill bumps and with race and regular guilds/sub-guilds available to your character based on karma without a spec app.
Edited: cause RGS is right. There is still a difference between a Special App for playing roles above your karma and ext.subuild/skill bumps.
Incorrect.
A special app can be for anything you can imagine. Want a mutant with super high strength and armored skin? You special app that. You might not exactly get it, but if you want it you must special app it. This type of app takes around a month, maybe longer.
Extended subguild/skill bump are only for the extended subguilds and skill bumps, and they take much less time to go through the request tool. They are usually accepted around a week to ten days.
Thanks guys.
New player question...
Can an existing player be given crafting skill bumps to master level?
The reason I'm asking is, I just got eaten (again) and now I'm going to try Armormaker as a sub guild. But I also see, that there's an extended sub guild called Master Armorsmith. I read about Master Crafting and was going to use that as a long term goal for my character.
So I guess my question is...
Do I stick with the character I have now, and work my way up to whatever the ceiling is on Armormaker -- then request a bump to Master?
or
Cancel/suicide or whatever my current player, request Master Armorsmith first, and then wait a week to start playing again while the request is looked at?
or
Do I even need to worry about this because an Armormaker can eventually do Master Crafting?
Quote from: Rooger on March 03, 2015, 02:47:47 AM
Can an existing player be given crafting skill bumps to master level?
The reason I'm asking is, I just got eaten (again) and now I'm going to try Armormaker as a sub guild. But I also see, that there's an extended sub guild called Master Armorsmith. I read about Master Crafting and was going to use that as a long term goal for my character.
First off... welcome to Arm! Grats on getting eaten (again)!
The normal sub-guilds cap below Master. You would need the extended sub-guild if you want to reach Master in Armor Making.
Quote from: Rooger on March 03, 2015, 02:47:47 AM
Do I stick with the character I have now, and work my way up to whatever the ceiling is on Armormaker -- then request a bump to Master?
or
Cancel/suicide or whatever my current player, request Master Armorsmith first, and then wait a week to start playing again while the request is looked at?
or
Do I even need to worry about this because an Armormaker can eventually do Master Crafting?
Not C.
A. Sticking with your character has some value because you can learn the basics of crafting and RP'ing a crafter without worrying about messing up with your special app'd character. Maybe point your next crafter North if this one is South, or South if this one is North.
B. I would suggest at least submitting the Ext. Subguild request first. If you haven't played your current new character very much or at all, you might be able to "retire" the character, but really just be using all the background descriptions and such for this new character submission.
thanks for the quick reply
I think I'll go with option #D though
I really don't want to wait a week, doing nothing. And I'm not sure I want to spend a week on a character I know is going to get stored or whatever...
I'll just go in a completely different direction
I know new players complaining is probably considered bad form but...
the more I think about this, the crazier it sounds.... which makes me feel I might be missing something
The cost for unlocking a master crafter, is the same as unlocking a half-giant, and more than unlocking a magic user?
Do master crafters automatically start out with a much higher minimum in their chosen skill (like getting skill bumps built in?)
Is a Master Chef really that amazing?
I realize that some of the extended sub guilds are probably pretty awesome, and most likely have potential for abuse
**Berserker Merchant "What do you mean you insist on keeping the price where it is?!?!?!?!" e hurls twin bladed axe, embedding it the the nearest wall
but to me, it seems like this system is saying
Step 1. put in an application that may or may not be accepted... hang on a week, don't call us--we'll call you
Steps 2 though 1 billion. play your cards just right, don't die, learn all the secretest secrets of your chosen craft
then, if you get there...
Step 1billion and 1. congratulations you can actually use the thing you applied for 6 months ago... if you die along they way, sorry bout that. but you still have 2 more applications for this year. please try again.
IMESHO... (ever-so-humble opinion) these CGPs would be better used to allow submission of mastercraft items by non-masters.
;D
Quote from: Rooger on March 03, 2015, 06:59:39 PM
the more I think about this, the crazier it sounds.... which makes me feel I might be missing something
The cost for unlocking a master crafter, is the same as unlocking a half-giant, and more than unlocking a magic user?
The thing that you're missing here is that you aren't just getting a master crafter.
Consider a warrior/master armorsmith.
Now you potentially have a master warrior, master crafter. The combination of two skillsets at master level does require some additional trust in players, represented by the special applications. Given that all Extended Subguilds are standardized at 3 CGP until a more automated system is in place, the answer is yes - though that may change in the future.
Likewise, particularly effective combinations - warrior/outdoorsman, ranger/slipknife, etc, etc - represent the possibility for extremely codedly powerful characters. Combining a warrior and ranger's skillsets, or a ranger and assassin's skillsets
do represent a greater power level than a Vivaduan or Rukkian, in my opinion.
Also keep in mind that you can be a master crafter without playing an extended subguild - just play a merchant.
Quote from: Rooger on March 03, 2015, 06:59:39 PM
I know new players complaining is probably considered bad form but...
A new player complaining is definitely not bad form unless it's whiny and not constructive. Your complaint seems like it's intended to be constructive, so no, I wouldn't say it's bad form.
Quote from: Rooger on March 03, 2015, 06:59:39 PM
The cost for unlocking a master crafter, is the same as unlocking a half-giant, and more than unlocking a magic user?
Do master crafters automatically start out with a much higher minimum in their chosen skill (like getting skill bumps built in?)
Is a Master Chef really that amazing?
I think the 3 cgp for characters that can master crafting skills does represent a level of trust. A mastercrafter writes items. Think about it for a moment.... some of these items are going to be permanently in the game. That takes staff trust. Also it represents some level of work staff is going to have to put in for those characters over regular characters, just like they might have to put some more work into monitoring the more abuse-possible skill and subguild combinations just to make sure that they aren't in fact being abused. That's how I think of it anyway.
Quote from: Rooger on March 03, 2015, 06:59:39 PM
Step 1. put in an application that may or may not be accepted... hang on a week, don't call us--we'll call you
Steps 2 though 1 billion. play your cards just right, don't die, learn all the secretest secrets of your chosen craft
then, if you get there...
Step 1billion and 1. congratulations you can actually use the thing you applied for 6 months ago... if you die along they way, sorry bout that. but you still have 2 more applications for this year. please try again.
If you only think of your Armageddon characters as a set of skills that you're trying to master instead of stories that you're part of, you're probably approaching this harsh permadeath game from an angle that's going to be constantly frustrating anyway. ;)
I don't think mastering a skill represents trust. Merchants master almost every crafting skill, at zero karma. We have the mastercraft request tool bureaucracy to stop bad items from getting in the game. I don't think trust comes anywhere into it.
Quote from: Rooger on March 03, 2015, 06:59:39 PM
The cost for unlocking a master crafter, is the same as unlocking a half-giant, and more than unlocking a magic user?
I think you're misunderstanding the system. In order to play a half-giant, desert-elf, or stone/water elementalist you need Karma. 3 CGP =/= Half-giant. There's a minimum karma requirement to play any of those roles without a full on special application for reaching outside of your karma level.
Now, if you have 3 karma, you could use your +3CGP and app for a half-giant with the Master Chef extended subguild. Or a half-giant water elementalist with 1 skill boost, as both water elementalist and half-giant are within your Karma level to play without special applications.
If you wanted to play a Krathi though, you'd need to special app as you only have 3 karma and those require 4. Of course, when you do app, you could request 2 skill bumps along with it since you'd have 6 CGP on the app... Make sense?
Quote from: valeria on March 04, 2015, 06:07:52 PMIf you only think of your Armageddon characters as a set of skills that you're trying to master instead of stories that you're part of, you're probably approaching this harsh permadeath game from an angle that's going to be constantly frustrating anyway. ;)
yeah, it's something I fully haven't wrapped my head around yet...
If it's all about telling a story, then why is there any kind of "system" at all. Why do we even have attributes? Why is it encouraged to switch characters at all?... like why earn karma on one character just to create new character with a "more powerful" race and/or guild and/or sub-guild? For me the answer for that is to better protect what is mine. A prime example is my character as noobface nobody, has had multiple mounts stolen. One time, I was at the stable got off a mount, and someone else offered it to the stable hand and got a ticket for it... There was nothing I could do about it. If I had the ability to put boots upside someone's ass, I would have. Could very well have died, because I have no idea who it was, but at least I would have felt better about it, instead of just having to watch helplessly as something that I put effort into acquiring taken from me.
but more to the point here...
In my own case, I was interested in the master crafting process for the sake of, in theory, creating something permanent to change the game. To the best of my knowledge, no other game is currently offering user driven/generated content. I'm as interested in the process, probably more so, than the actual final product itself--at least at this point. If in theory, if I could create, the 'Armor of Bright Shininess' what is the upper limit? Given enough hours and days of effort, could I create a block of stone? The answer would seem to be yes. Could I make enough stone blocks to create a wall? How about a whole permanent building? How about a collection of buildings i.e. a settlement?
It's a very interesting can of worms when the lines between developer and player become blurry.
At this point, I believe the challenge is for my character to learn enough about the world, to get deep enough involved in a plot line, to spawn a sub plot of my own, for others to interact with. I guess I view mastering a skill as both a means, and also a chance to prove that I can create something worth doing.
Quote from: Rooger on March 05, 2015, 07:05:46 PM
Quote from: valeria on March 04, 2015, 06:07:52 PMIf you only think of your Armageddon characters as a set of skills that you're trying to master instead of stories that you're part of, you're probably approaching this harsh permadeath game from an angle that's going to be constantly frustrating anyway. ;)
yeah, it's something I fully haven't wrapped my head around yet...
If it's all about telling a story, then why is there any kind of "system" at all. Why do we even have attributes? Why is it encouraged to switch characters at all?... like why earn karma on one character just to create new character with a "more powerful" race and/or guild and/or sub-guild? For me the answer for that is to better protect what is mine. A prime example is my character as noobface nobody, has had multiple mounts stolen. One time, I was at the stable got off a mount, and someone else offered it to the stable hand and got a ticket for it... There was nothing I could do about it. If I had the ability to put boots upside someone's ass, I would have. Could very well have died, because I have no idea who it was, but at least I would have felt better about it, instead of just having to watch helplessly as something that I put effort into acquiring taken from me.
but more to the point here...
In my own case, I was interested in the master crafting process for the sake of, in theory, creating something permanent to change the game. To the best of my knowledge, no other game is currently offering user driven/generated content. I'm as interested in the process, probably more so, than the actual final product itself--at least at this point. If in theory, if I could create, the 'Armor of Bright Shininess' what is the upper limit? Given enough hours and days of effort, could I create a block of stone? The answer would seem to be yes. Could I make enough stone blocks to create a wall? How about a whole permanent building? How about a collection of buildings i.e. a settlement?
It's a very interesting can of worms when the lines between developer and player become blurry.
At this point, I believe the challenge is for my character to learn enough about the world, to get deep enough involved in a plot line, to spawn a sub plot of my own, for others to interact with. I guess I view mastering a skill as both a means, and also a chance to prove that I can create something worth doing.
As a certain admin recently mentioned - quite honestly, the most satisfying things you can do/ achieve in Armageddon, do not require any sort of coded ability what so ever. I'm a new player too, but i've experienced it first hand :)
Code is just a tool that deals the reality that scrabs are lethal.
Most power Is uncoded, though ultimately backed by code. Want to build a building? Be the noble that makes a case for spending sids to their House. Or be the artisan whose crew oversees it.
There are examples in Tuluk of buildings and artwork erected après le Deluge. These were spearheaded by pc nobles, with House approval and backing , materials collected by PCs, built I imagine by virtual labour and sessions of PC role play. Under the benevolent gaze of His Faithful.
If you want to make the shiniest sword, join Salarr as a recruit crafter. Truely, no one else in the Known can make Them, afaik.
Okay. I'm going to try to see if I understand this completely. Apologies if format or punctuation gets wonky, Im on my phone. Also apologies for doing this, but I usually have to rephrase and talk about something to grasp it fully.
1. Right now say I have 5 karma. Now if I want nothing special added, I could play a Half-giant elkrosian with subguild forager. This does not count against my three yearly CGP applications.
2. Or I can, while STILL playing my current character, apply for a character who is a human 0 krathi 4/outdoorsman 3 with one skill bump. Then, if approved, can play it AFTER my current character dies or I store him, even if 5 months down the road. Also would count as one of my three.
Quote from: Shoka Windrunner on June 04, 2015, 12:53:48 PM
Okay. I'm going to try to see if I understand this completely. Apologies if format or punctuation gets wonky, Im on my phone. Also apologies for doing this, but I usually have to rephrase and talk about something to grasp it fully.
1. Right now say I have 5 karma. Now if I want nothing special added, I could play a Half-giant elkrosian with subguild forager. This does not count against my three yearly CGP applications.
2. Or I can, while STILL playing my current character, apply for a character who is a human 0 krathi 4/outdoorsman 3 with one skill bump. Then, if approved, can play it AFTER my current character dies or I store him, even if 5 months down the road. Also would count as one of my three.
#2 looks kosher, but half-giant elkrosian is more than five karma. You add the totals together (3 + 5?) for 8 karma required to play without a special app.
No, if you have 5 Karma you can play anything at 5 karma or under.
If a half-giant costs 3 Karma, and an Elkrosian costs 5 karma, you can play an Elkrosian of any 5 karma or under race, including half-giant.
CGP costs stack, karma costs do not.
staff, plz make us stop do all this math, it's hard :(
Quote from: chuci on June 04, 2015, 01:06:26 PM
CGP costs stack, karma costs do not.
Not true for special apps (including extended subguild and skill bump apps). If you put in for an Elkrosian (5k) half-giant (3k) with an extended subguild (3k) and X skill bumps, you are going to need karma + CGP = 5+3+3+X. (Which makes it so you couldn't have skill bumps with that application, because no one gets 14 points to spend.)
For reference: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48618.0.html
Quote from: Shoka Windrunner on June 04, 2015, 12:53:48 PM
1. Right now say I have 5 karma. Now if I want nothing special added, I could play a Half-giant elkrosian with subguild forager. This does not count against my three yearly CGP applications.
2. Or I can, while STILL playing my current character, apply for a character who is a human 0 krathi 4/outdoorsman 3 with one skill bump. Then, if approved, can play it AFTER my current character dies or I store him, even if 5 months down the road. Also would count as one of my three.
1. Correct.
2. Correct.
Right but if you're apping for a karma-only role and you have the karma, 5 is enough. Which was the original question ("nothing special added").
So Narf's answer to #1 is actually incorrect.
If you're special-apping then yeah, that's a different weird world of CGP and Karma combinations that I haven't traversed.
That said, if you have the karma and are just applying for an extended subguild with x skill bumps, then it should actually be:
5 + 3 + x because Karma doesn't stack, only CGP stacks, and CGP is for extended subguilds and skill bumps. So actually that's 8 for the guild/race combo and extended subguild, and 3 points left over for skil bumps.
Making karma stack in special apps when it doesn't normally stack elsewhere would be weird.
Its like new math.
Quote from: chuci on June 04, 2015, 01:29:33 PM
Making karma stack in special apps when it doesn't normally stack elsewhere would be weird.
I'm telling you what the policy is and how we are doing it. Think of it as the cost of doing business via special application, maybe.
Aren't races and (sub)Guilds you've unlocked via the normal karma route essentially freebies, so long as you're not spec apping? So Someone with 5Karma could play a Half Giant Rukkian with zero skill bumps and not use up one of their yearly apps.
But if you have to put in a special app (applying for a role outside your karma range, an extended subguild or skill bumps) then 1) you're using one of your year's apps and 2) maths come in to it.
The maths part is pretty simple. Everyone's got 3CGP + X Karma. The above player with 5Karma has 8 points (5+3) total to spend on their race, subguild, and skill bumps.
Quote from: Talia on June 04, 2015, 01:42:43 PM
Quote from: chuci on June 04, 2015, 01:29:33 PM
Making karma stack in special apps when it doesn't normally stack elsewhere would be weird.
I'm telling you what the policy is and how we are doing it. Think of it as the cost of doing business via special application, maybe.
It makes sense to me. Otherwise my hypothetical 5karma player could have a Half Giant Rukkian with a whopping 8 skill points to distribute.
Quote from: Talia on June 04, 2015, 01:42:43 PM
Quote from: chuci on June 04, 2015, 01:29:33 PM
Making karma stack in special apps when it doesn't normally stack elsewhere would be weird.
I'm telling you what the policy is and how we are doing it. Think of it as the cost of doing business via special application, maybe.
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/002046547/422915837_my_brain_hurts_answer_3_xlarge.jpeg)
I don't think, that using the normal character creation, you can ever go OVER your karma +3. Pretty sure. So it's not that weird, just means that normal character creation, you are auto approved...sort of.
Now you may end up UNDER karma +3, but...you would have to have under 3 karma...I think? Just doing quick maths in my head.
Anyway.
Can you get a skill bump to those...uhh...hidden skills? Don't know what they are called but the ones that don't show up when you type skills? Like say I want to be able to drink basically anyone under the table, can I get a bump to my ability to hold my liquor? As an example?
Quote from: Shoka Windrunner on June 04, 2015, 01:55:23 PM
I don't think, that using the normal character creation, you can ever go OVER your karma +3. Pretty sure. So it's not that weird, just means that normal character creation, you are auto approved...sort of.
Now you may end up UNDER karma +3, but...you would have to have under 3 karma...I think? Just doing quick maths in my head.
Anyway.
Can you get a skill bump to those...uhh...hidden skills? Don't know what they are called but the ones that don't show up when you type skills? Like say I want to be able to drink basically anyone under the table, can I get a bump to my ability to hold my liquor? As an example?
Last I checked hidden skills couldn't be bumped.
#Notamod.
(http://blog.wallstreetsurvivor.com/wp-content/uploads/blackboard_1920-wide_11x6x72dpi.jpg.pagespeed.ce_.I3Zaghap7F.jpg)
Damnit, now I'm confused.
So if I have five karma, I can app a half giant krathi via the game client just fine. But if I have five karma and want to spec app a half giant krathi, its actually worth 9 points and out of my range?...
Wouldn't half-giant krathi be worth seven points in total if it worked like that? So it would still be within your spec-app range.
Quote from: HavokBlue on June 04, 2015, 03:49:44 PM
Damnit, now I'm confused.
So if I have five karma, I can app a half giant krathi via the game client just fine. But if I have five karma and want to spec app a half giant krathi, its actually worth 9 points and out of my range?...
Half Giant = 3 Karma
Krathi = 4 Karma
I don't know if you would need 4 Karma to just app in as a Half Giant Krathi normally, or if you would need 7 Karma. I think it's the former (4 karma) because otherwise a Half Giant Whiran or Nilazi would be impossible (being 10 karma points total) and I've never heard anything to that effect.
If you wanted to spec-app in as a Half Giant Krathi you would need at least seven points (karma + CGP) to acquire it. You would only spec app for one if you couldn't acquire one normally through your karma score, OR you want to buy an extended subguild and/or skill bumps for it. So if you, Havok, have five karma, you'll have 8 points to spec-app with. 4 points would go to the Half giant, 3 to the krathi guild, and 1 point to whatever skill you'd want bumped.
#notamod but I have been apping skill bumps and extended subguilds exclusively for the last six months...
From the public part of those docs:
QuoteRace and guild choice will now be taken into account when considering CGP applications.
On your own, without involving staff, using just your karma and the normal application process, you do not need to consider the karma of the race you want to play plus the karma of the guild you want to play. If you have 5 karma, you can create a half-giant elkran, because you have 5 karma.
When you file a CGP application, the rules mimic what the eventual automated system will be. You (and staff) must now consider the karma of the race you want to play plus the karma of the guild you want to play. If you have 5 karma and want to do an extended subguild or a skill bump, you have to break down what you wish to get.
5 karma = 5 CGP. You get 3 from the application, so let's call it 8 CGP.
Do you want a half-giant? If so, that will use 3 CGP. You have 5 remaining.
Do you want a rukkian? If so, that will use 2 CGP. You have 3 remaining. You can spend this on 3 skill bumps or an extended subguild.
Let's say you go with HG but want to go with a different guild. Do you want a krathi? If so, that will use 4 CGP. You have 1 remaining. You can use that on a skill bump.
Let's say you go with HG but want to go with a different guild. Do you want an elkran? If so, that will use 5 CGP. You have none remaining. You have also wasted your time, and your application...because you could have done this already, without staff.
Let's say you want to go with a sorcerer. If so, that will use 8 CGP. Your sorcerer must be one of the 0-karma races and you have no CGP to spend on an extended subguild or skill bumps.
So, basically, the way Karma works now will be scrapped in favor of taking race into account when the CGP system finally gets automated and Karma is done away with?
And the app-in system is mimicking the way CGP will work in the future?
And right now we just have a confusing hybrid of the two?
I feel kinda silly for saying it, but it would be kinda neat to have a calculator/app for this.
I may not be understanding the process and I know it should be easy, but it would be nice to just put in your karma level or whatever at one end of a general information calculator front end and then have a drop down list of your race and guild options at the other end of it along with your sub guild options and have it spit out how much you have left over for skill bumps after you make your selections. Then maybe have a general list of skills underneath that you can ask to have bumped if you decide to put in an application?
I dunno. Just shooting from the hip and likely talking nonsense.
Edit: Sniped by Nyr.
This is how it seems:
1. If you use the normal character creation system you have access to when you connect to the game, whatever you see there that is unlocked by your Karma, you are free to do. Just like always.
2. If you want to delve into getting skill bumps, extended subguilds or getting access to races/guilds, then the CGP rules apply. This means you may not be able to be that half-giant/krathi/Grebber, because that is 3+4+3 =10. This is a balance issue. It doesnt make necessarily logical sense, but balance is a necessary evil in games. Think that this ultimately makes you more powerful and is more difficult to play responsibly. A human/krathi/grebber, is in your reach and by comparison, less powerful and easier to rp responsibly. A half-giant/ranger/grebber with one skill bump is in your reach and by comparison, less powerful and easier to play responsibly.
To be honest, this will change over time Im guessing, because I think some of the extended subguilds will be considered less powerful and easier to play responsibly. We will see. Its a good change and an interesting one. Allowing for more diversity in the character base (even more than just adding the subguilds) making people even less cookie cutter than before.
Here's how to easily calculate this.
CGP Application (3 per year):
Pick your race:
0 - Human, Dwarf, Half-elf, Elf
1 - Desert Elf
3 - Half-Giant
7 - Mul*
Pick your Guild: (You must have at least enough karma to cover this section in order to do this on the "fast track" Skill bump/Extended Subguild queue. Otherwise it's a full special app with a longer queue generally...)
0 - Merchant, Pickpocket, Burglar, Warrior, Assassin, Ranger
2 - Water Mage, Stone Mage
4 - Shadow Mage, Fire Mage
5 - Lightning Mage
6 - Wind Mage, Void Mage
8 - Psionicist, Sorcerer
Pick your subguild:
0 - Any Standard Subguild
3 - Any Extended Subguild
Pick # of skill bumps (1 point per).
Add these all together, and it must be less than or equal to your current karma level + 3.
*Mul Magickers are not permitted, even if you have the Karma for it.
Example: Dwarven Stone Mage with an Extended Subguild and 3 skill bumps. 0 + 2 + 3 + 3 = 8 char-gen points. Requires 5 karma (5 from karma + 3 from using one of your special apps for the year).
Normal Application Process: (If the number to the left is less than or equal to your karma number, you can play it, no math required)
Pick your race:
0 - Human, Dwarf, Half-elf, Elf
1 - Desert Elf
3 - Half-Giant
7 - Mul*
Pick your Guild:
0 - Merchant, Pickpocket, Burglar, Warrior, Assassin, Ranger
2 - Water Mage, Stone Mage
4 - Shadow Mage, Fire Mage
5 - Lightning Mage
6 - Wind Mage, Void Mage
8 - Psionicist, Sorcerer
*Mul Magickers are not permitted, even if you have the Karma for it.
Example: Half-giant Sorcerer with no extended subguild (not a special app) and no skill bumps (not a special app). 8 karma required for the Sorcerer part, half-giant is under 8 so that's covered too.
Skill bump/ext. subguild apps are different from +3 karma apps though, aren't they? You get three of the latter per year whereas the former you can do if you have the karma for them without any sort of limit?
Quote from: aeglaeca on June 04, 2015, 04:43:34 PM
Skill bump/ext. subguild apps are different from +3 karma apps though, aren't they? You get three of the latter per year whereas the former you can do if you have the karma for them without any sort of limit?
Nope, they all count as special apps, its just Skill bump/ext. subguilds take a fraction of the time to get approved.
Yeah, the +3 karma apps was the old system. It's now kind of represented by the fact that everyone gets 3 CGP + their karma score for when they want to do special applications.
Edit: You still also had to spec app under the old system and had a 3/year limit.
Quote from: chuci on June 04, 2015, 04:19:31 PM
So, basically, the way Karma works now will be scrapped in favor of taking race into account when the CGP system finally gets automated and Karma is done away with?
And the app-in system is mimicking the way CGP will work in the future?
And right now we just have a confusing hybrid of the two?
More or less, sure.
If you don't want to put in a CGP application, you don't have to worry about anything. Karma worked the way it always worked.
If you do want to put in a CGP application, the cost of things you want will subtract from your total amount of CGP in the application.
At this point, take your karma amount. Add 3 to it. Let's call this "X". Everything you want to play that has a CGP cost
subtracts from "X".
If I understand this correctly then, the most any player could ever have to spend is 11 CGP (8 karma +3). So that means it is impossible for a half giant sorcerer to have any kind of extended subguild (HG 3 = Sorcerer 8). The only way to ever get an extended subguild on a sorcerer is to play a 0 karma race. This seems logical for HG and dwarves, but it penalizes elves for no reason I can see.
The same would hold true for someone with 8 karma wanting to lay a HG with a 6 karma guild (HG 3 + 6 =9. Not enough left for an extended subguild, but could get two skill bumps). You could play them as a 2 karma or less race and still get an extended subguild.
Is this correct?
If so are there plans to change things so that given the player has the necessary karma, all the races could be played with all the guild or ext-subguild combinations? Except Muls of course.
Sorcerers are already subguilds so you aren't going to be apping for a sorc and an aggressor.
Quote from: Norcal on June 04, 2015, 08:40:01 PM
If so are there plans to change things so that given the player has the necessary karma, all the races could be played with all the guild or ext-subguild combinations?
HavokBlue is correct that sorcerers ARE subguilds, so extended subguilds are a moot point with them.
The only thing out of reach would be a half-giant void/wind elementalist with an extended subguild (those would cost 12 CGP).
I checked the database, and HG wind/void elementalists are, perhaps predictably, sort of a niche market. If you are an eight karma player and are just really, really, really dying to play your half-giant nilazi majordomo, go ahead and put in a request I guess?
Quote from: Norcal on June 04, 2015, 08:40:01 PM
If so are there plans to change things so that given the player has the necessary karma, all the races could be played with all the guild or ext-subguild combinations? Except Muls of course.
Not at this time. This was intentionally designed with those restrictions in mind; it was not an oversight.