Armageddon General Discussion Board

Another idea that we have been discussing has been the role of Extended Subclasses.  Instead of just a moving of Extended Subclasses to zero karma and boosting the skill levels of existing zero karma subclasses, this is more a rationalization of subclasses, as many of the zero karma subclasses map to an extended subclass fairly well.

As we do not have, nor are we going to get, subclass versioning, the idea is to have the zero karma subclass replace the extended subclass it is similar to.  Characters with the extended subclass would get to play them out with it, but it would not be offered as a character creation option for new characters.  Some extended subclasses would remain, as they have no zero karma equivalent.  To be specific:

(https://i.imgur.com/94l2ZWr.png)

Custom Crafter is shown going away, that may or may not happen.  Considered a return to Custom Crafts for folks that get a craft skill to Master.

The rationalization means that some combinations of skills currently available via extended subclasses would be going away, replaced with fairly similar sets of skills in a zero karma subclass.  Currently, mock-up looks like this:

(https://i.imgur.com/FDYLBjc.jpg)

There are also some current zero karma subclasses that do not have an equivalent extended subclass, that would need to be updated.  I've also proposed two new subclasses to fill in a couple of gaps:

(https://i.imgur.com/4MnkG9d.jpg)

As you can see, this proposal makes normal subclasses have between 4 and 7 skills, at levels extended subclasses get them.  The only removal of a skill for a current zero karma subclass is pain tolerance for pit-fighters.  This is a bit of a weird skill in that existing characters with pit-fighter would keep their currently level of pain tolerance anyways.

Extended Subclasses of berserker, bruiser, lancer, master trader, rogue, slipknife, grebber, master potter, swordsman and reaver would remain the same, except that they would no longer have a karma requirement.

You may have noticed roughrider is missing.  It becomes the first subclass for an additional proposal.  These would be zero karma subclasses that only get two paired skills.  You'll notice the words master in red.  That is because these two skills would be at the max skill level any guild gets the skill.  Current proposed subclasses of this nature:

(https://i.imgur.com/HUPuY4Y.png)

This is not an all or nothing proposal, and the decision to even move forwards with it hasn't been made yet.  Feel free to give your feedback.  You can be for part of it and against part of it.  You can comment on which skills you feel should be included or not, but keep in mind the principles around how we would intend to update the subclasses due to lack of versioning.  If you are proposing something that doesn't work within that, it will likely get ignored.

There's a lot of information that I'll need to parse.


First question:

No karma required for any of these subclasses ?

I think this is a fantastic idea as the old subclasses are very much in need of an update.

The one thing I would ask is allowing current players the one time option of changing their sub classes to one of the new ones with the caveat that any skills they got from the change would start at the lowest levels. 

With the heavy changes to the sub classes it really only seems fair they get the option to update their characters if need be.

I was trying to put some subclasses into categories:

Weapon Skills Subclasses:

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Berserker	Chopping Weapons	Advanced
	Disarm	Advanced
	Kick	Journeyman
	Bash	Journeyman
	Subdue	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Blind Fighting	Journeyman
Reaver	Chopping Weapons	Advanced
	Shield Use	Advanced
	Hack	Advanced
	Disarm	Advanced
	Armor Repair	Advanced
Lancer	Piercing Weapons	Advanced
	Disarm	Advanced
	Kick	Journeyman
	Bash	Journeyman
	Subdue	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Blind Fighting	Journeyman
Bruiser	Bludgeoning Weapons	Advanced
	Disarm	Advanced
	Kick	Journeyman
	Bash	Journeyman
	Subdue	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Blind Fighting	Journeyman
Aggressor Pit Fighter	Slashing Weapons	Advanced
	Disarm	Advanced
	Kick	Journeyman
	Bash	Journeyman
	Subdue	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Blind Fighting	Journeyman
Swordsman	Slashing Weapons	Advanced
	Riposte	Advanced
	Parry	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced

Change #1 - Retire Aggressor and bump Pit Fighter up to Aggressor skill levels, remove Pain Tolerance Perk.
I'm okay with that.   Pit Fighter and Aggressor overlapped.

Suggested Change #1 - Give Swordsman "disarm" at Journeyman.   Swordsman feels a bit empty compared to the rest of the group.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Reaver "flee" at Advanced.  Reaver also feels a bit empty compared to the rest of the group.
Suggested Change #3 - Give Reaver "Shield Use" at Master.

Quote from: mansa on June 20, 2022, 06:58:42 PM
Suggested Change #1 - Give Swordsman "disarm" at Journeyman.   Swordsman feels a bit empty compared to the rest of the group.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Reaver "flee" at Advanced.  Reaver also feels a bit empty compared to the rest of the group.

Swordsman - That makes sense.
Reaver - Flee has no real synergy with the core skill set.  I was considering an advanced level to two-handed, which does have some synergy.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 07:10:21 PM

Quote from: mansa on June 20, 2022, 06:58:42 PM
Suggested Change #1 - Give Swordsman "disarm" at Journeyman.   Swordsman feels a bit empty compared to the rest of the group.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Reaver "flee" at Advanced.  Reaver also feels a bit empty compared to the rest of the group.

Swordsman - That makes sense.
Reaver - Flee has no real synergy with the core skill set.  I was considering an advanced level to two-handed, which does have some synergy.

I just edited the post to include a suggested change #3, but I'll repost it here:
Suggested Change #3 - Give Reaver "Shield Use" at Master instead of Advanced.

Quote from: Ender on June 20, 2022, 06:22:47 PM
I think this is a fantastic idea as the old subclasses are very much in need of an update.

The one thing I would ask is allowing current players the one time option of changing their sub classes to one of the new ones with the caveat that any skills they got from the change would start at the lowest levels. 

With the heavy changes to the sub classes it really only seems fair they get the option to update their characters if need be.

No, we will not be allowing players to change subclasses.  This will already come with a bit of pain for Admin+ Staff.

If you currently have an Extended Subclass that will be going away, you would just keep that Extended Subclass as the power level is equivalent.

If you currently have an Extended Subclass that stays and gets more skills, you'll need to wish up to have us add those skills manually, one by one.

If you currently have a zero karma subclass, you'll need to wish up to have us add those skills manually, one by one.

Does not seem to be a parity issue, as at the end of the day everyone will be able to be at the same overall level of skills.  Although some characters will have deprecated mixes of skills, that is not a power parity issue.

Quote from: mansa on June 20, 2022, 07:11:34 PM
Suggested Change #3 - Give Reaver "Shield Use" at Master instead of Advanced.

It is already at a crazy good level, it is just hard to see because of some specific wonkiness in the shield use skill. 

Most all of the skills given with these proposed subclasses, outside of the Mastery ones, do not give the maximum value that the best guild gets it at, even when they say Master (there are a handful of exceptions, like language skills).  They are somewhere below that.  With Shield Use, it makes no sense to bump it up so you see "Master" on the skill list but it isn't at the best level of shield use.

This is good idea. I would love to see this implemented.

The only feedback/suggestion i would have is that you have k1 and k2 options for the same subguilds, the only difference is k1 and k2 options would have higher skill caps. There is a big difference between advanced stealth and (maxed) master stealth in terms of usefulness, same with skills like archery, backstab and sap.

My suggestion is you balanced the subclasses in terms of skill but keep skill caps for k0 as currently extended subclass levels. However,  the skill cap on subclasses would then be boosted for k1 and k2 levels options, each options perhaps having 1 more maxed skill than the other. Of course, k1 or k2 options would consume karma.

I would rather see higher karma players playing raiders with more strong mundane skills, or with other interesting mundane traits then just another raider/magicker.

Lastly, rough rider should have direction sense as the classes who are most likely to pick this subclass would require that skill to make the most use of riding.

So...I finally got through everything. And Really, I am good with Brokkr's OP......one of the better thought out proposals I have seen on here.

As to certain suggestions, like flee for reaver or master over advanced shield use.....Nah, it does not make sense as I see it, Should protector get master shield and maybe even flee, Sure, But agresser subs or reaver...Nah.

Here's another category:

Perception & Languages Subclasses:

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Ministrel Bard	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Listen	Advanced
	Scan	Master
	Watch	Advanced
	Haggle	Advanced
	Instrument Making	Master
	Learn Languages Perk
	Steal
Majordomo House Servant	Hide	Advanced
	Pilot	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Listen	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Cooking	Master
	Floristry	Advanced
	City Stealth
	Sleight of Hand
Caravan Guide	Pilot	Advanced
	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Bendune	Master
	Wilderness Quit
	Hitch 2nd Mount
Linguist	Sirihish	Master
	Mirukkim	Master
	Allundean	master
	Northern Accent	master
	Southern Accent	master
	Labyrinthi Accent	master
	Learn Language Perk

Change #1 - Retire Ministrel and Bump Bard up.  Do not have Steal
Change #2 - Retire Majordomo and Bump House Servant up.   Do not have Sleight of Hand.
Caravan Guide - Bump Value to Advanced.
Linguist - No Change


Suggested Change #1 - Give Bard "Steal" at Advanced.   I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Bard "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Steal", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #3 - Give House Servant "Sleight of Hand" at Advanced.  I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #4 - Give House Servant "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Sleight of Hands", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #5 - Give House Servant "Brew" at Advanced.  Reason - I think any class with Floristry should also get Brew.
Suggested Change #6 - Bump House Servant "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #7 - Bump Caravan Guide "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #8 - Give Linguist "Value" at Advanced.

This is hawtness, Brokkr.

- Mercenary: You have it getting dual wield at master. Consider two-handed at the same level? That's doubling up on skills but I feel like folks typically pick just one or the other.

- Mountaineer: Consider climb at master, maybe with a reduction in something else. The name suggests to me that you're gonna try 3+ room climbs. :)

- Roughrider: It's cool, but who is it for? Because there's no direction sense it's a dodgy choice for non-wild classes, but wilderness combat classes don't get much of a boost. But maybe it's perfect for somebody's concept and that's fine.
  - Raiders get ride at master instead of advanced, mount taming.
  - Scouts get ride and charge at master instead of advanced.
  - Stalkers get charge at master instead of advanced.

Quote from: mansa on June 20, 2022, 07:33:19 PM
Caravan Guide - No Change
Linguist - No Change


Suggested Change #1 - Give Bard "Steal" at Advanced.   I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Bard "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Steal", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #3 - Give House Servant "Sleight of Hand" at Advanced.  I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #4 - Give House Servant "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Sleight of Hands", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #5 - Give House Servant "Brew" at Advanced.  Reason - I think any class with Floristry should also get Brew.
Suggested Change #6 - Bump House Servant "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #7 - Bump Caravan Guide "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #8 - Give Linguist "Value" at Advanced.

Caravan Guide actually has nearly master pilot now, and wilderness quit which it didn't before.

7 skill maximum.

I am approaching this with an eye toward what skills make sense for the role, rather than trying to squeeze in all the skills that might be "missing".

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 07:48:52 PM
...

Caravan Guide actually has nearly master pilot now, and wilderness quit which it didn't before.

7 skill maximum.

I am approaching this with an eye toward what skills make sense for the role, rather than trying to squeeze in all the skills that might be "missing".

I do find it weird that skills that directly correspond to player strength in combat are 'weighted' as much as passive observational skills, in terms of a maximum of number skills a subclass can give.  Observational skills work best together with other passive skills, and the subclass feels weak without peek / sleight of hand / steal.   'Watch' isn't as powerful as disarm or threaten, for example. 

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on June 20, 2022, 07:37:16 PM
This is hawtness, Brokkr.

- Mercenary: You have it getting dual wield at master. Consider two-handed at the same level? That's doubling up on skills but I feel like folks typically pick just one or the other.

- Mountaineer: Consider climb at master, maybe with a reduction in something else. The name suggests to me that you're gonna try 3+ room climbs. :)

- Roughrider: It's cool, but who is it for? Because there's no direction sense it's a dodgy choice for non-wild classes, but wilderness combat classes don't get much of a boost. But maybe it's perfect for somebody's concept and that's fine.
  - Raiders get ride at master instead of advanced, mount taming.
  - Scouts get ride and charge at master instead of advanced.
  - Stalkers get charge at master instead of advanced.

Mercenary - As two handed riding depends on both the ride skill and shield use/twohanded/dual wield skill, I added dual with as thematic to the subclass to make sure they can for sure get to hands full ride, that also nicely bumped up a little weakness in the class.  I chose dual wield over two handed specifically, and was potentially going to use two handed somewhere else.

Mountaineer - Probably a good suggestion.

Roughridger - Sunslits?  There is like, one area of the gameworld I would never go into without direction sense specifically, and that is weather dependent.  The rest of the world is fine with just sunslits honestly.  Sure, you get turned around now and then travelling solo, but you'll get where you are going eventually.  You may not want to be the leader of a group...but following along after a leader (character, not player) that knows where they are going is probably a good idea in a group.

Quote from: mansa on June 20, 2022, 07:55:58 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 07:48:52 PM
...

Caravan Guide actually has nearly master pilot now, and wilderness quit which it didn't before.

7 skill maximum.

I am approaching this with an eye toward what skills make sense for the role, rather than trying to squeeze in all the skills that might be "missing".

I do find it weird that skills that directly correspond to player strength in combat are 'weighted' as much as passive observational skills, in terms of a maximum of number skills a subclass can give.  Observational skills work best together with other passive skills, and the subclass feels weak without peek / sleight of hand / steal.   'Watch' isn't as powerful as disarm or threaten, for example.

advanced/journeyman vs advanced/master

It would be nice if instead of having spearmaking, nomad was a bit styled towards self-sufficiency like wastelander, but with cooking skill and wild-forage(or some other wild oriented skill) at some baseline(advanced+?) to represent more of that wilderness survival.

Nomad already have spearmaking, so it isn't going away.  Nomad having spearmaking I think was intended as a big hint that nomad should use....spears.

Also, I think of nomads as Tribals.  In a tribe.  Not oriented to living in the wastes alone, but rather with...their tribe.

Which is why I redid Wastelanders with Bendune.  Those tribals that are more self-sufficient.

Having different subclasses be near carbon copies of each other defeats part of the point of this exercise.

Here's another category:

Crafting Subclasses:

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Master Armorsmith Armormaker	Armor Making	Master
	Armor Repair	Master
	Leather Working	Master
	Tanning	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
	Haggle
Master Crafter Crafter	Forage	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Basketweaving	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Club Making	Master
	Stonecrafting	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
	Haggle
	Tanning
	Dyeing
Master Weaponsmith Weaponscrafter	Axe Making	Master
	Club Making	Master
	Knife Making	Master
	Spearmaking	Master
	Swordmaking	Master
	Toolmaking	Advanced
	Haggle
	Fletchery
Master Jeweler Jeweler	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Feather Working	Advanced
	Jewelrymaking	Master
	Stonecrafting	Advanced
	Toolmaking	Advanced
Master Tailor Tailor	Haggle	Advanced
	Clothworking	Master
	Dyeing	Advanced
	Jewelrymaking	Journeyman
	Toolmaking	Advanced
	Tanning
Master Chef	Skinning	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Forage	Advanced
	Haggle	Advanced
	Cooking	Master
	Forage Food in Wilderness Perk
	Forage Food in City Perk
	Alcohol Tolerance Perk
Master Potter	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Dyeing	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Toolmaking	Advanced
Apothecary Physician	Brew	Advanced
	Floristry	Master
	Bandage	Advanced
	Bandagemaking	Master
	Forage	Advanced

Change #1 - Retire Master Armorsmith and bump up Armormaker.  Do not have Haggle.  (This new gives Toolmaking to the new Master Armorsmith!)
Change #2 - Retire Master Crafter and bump up Crafter.  Do not have Haggle, Tanning, Dyeing.  (This new gives Toolmaking to the new Master Crafter!)
Change #3 - Retire Master Weaponcrafter and bump up weaponsmith.  Do not have Haggle, Fletchery.  (This new gives Toolmaking to the new Master Weaponsmith!)
Change #4 - Retire Master Jeweler and bump up Jeweler.  (This new gives Toolmaking to the new Master Jeweler!)
Change #5 - Retire Master Tailor and bump up Tailor.  Do not have Tanning.  (This new gives Toolmaking to the new Master Tailor!)
Change #6 - Add Alcohol Perk to Master Chef.  Add Forage to Master Chef.  Add Direction Sense to Master Chef.
No change to Master Potter
Change #7 - Retire Apothecary and Bump up Physician.   Do not have Master brew like Apothecary.



Suggested Change #1 - Give Dyeing to Master Armorsmith.   They should be able to dye their armors different colors.
Suggested Change #2 - Remove Club Making from Crafter - Give Dyeing and Tanning to Crafter.
Club Making doesn't make sense for a general crafter.  They should be able to dye things, and convert raw leather scraps into workable leather.  It's a "generic crafter" subclass, right?  A catch-all?
Suggested Change #3 - Give Fletchery to Weaponscrafter.  Weaponcrafters should be able to make arrows.
Suggested Change #4 - Give Tanning and Leatherworking to Tailor.  Tailors should be able to make me leather boots.   Remove Haggle.
Tailors should be able to make bags and boots and cloaks, and some of them fall into the leatherworking crafting skills.   Haggle would be too rich with the additional crafting skills.
Suggested Change #5 - Remove Master Potter, it's a duplicate of Crafter now.
Suggested Change #6 - Give "Master" Brew instead of "Advanced" to new Physician.   People chose Apothecary to get Master Brew specifically.

I think the two skill masteries are missing some vital synergy for them to be applicable and desirable.  I think they could get one more skill that maxes at journeyman level that works together well with their mastery

Roughrider - As this is about traversal it would really benefit from direction sense.  Roughrider feels really weak for any class that already gets ride, and almost useless for classes that don't get direction sense.

Wild Stealth - Direction Sense for the same reasons as Roughrider

City Stealth - Could benefit from peek, sleight of hand, or lock picking for when they get stuck in people's apartments after shadowing them in.

Poison Mastery - Could benefit from throw, blowgun use, or archery.  Something to use their poisons on.  I would lean more towards blowgun use as it fits more with the poisoner theme.

Skinning Mastery - Leather working they are masters of making leather, so it makes sense they should be able to do something with it.

Archery Mastery - Crossbow use they can make bolts, so it makes sense they can fire it from a crossbow.

Scan Mastery - This is a strange one because it's honestly a worse version of Wastelander.  Listen at Mastery does not make up for all the abilities Wastelander gets.  Maybe hunt would make it different enough from Wastelander to be appealing?

Mansa, you keep making mistakes.  Master Chef, for instance, would not be listed out if there were no changes.   I even listed out the subclasses that have no changes.

And please, if you are going to do bulk suggestions, provide the reasoning.

I might have misunderstood some of the intent here with two skill subclasses classes. Still a good idea still though.

Quote from: Ender on June 20, 2022, 08:21:55 PM
I think the two skill masteries are missing some vital synergy for them to be applicable and desirable.  I think they could get one more skill that maxes at journeyman level that works together well with their mastery

I agree with this, I would bump them up to three skills. City sneak could get listen, then you could remove scan mastery all together. 

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 07:16:44 PM

Quote from: Ender on June 20, 2022, 06:22:47 PM

you'll need to wish up to have us add those skills manually, one by one.

Then why not simply allow a subguild change?

I'm vastly in favor of updating subguilds and I'll need time to more coherently formulate feedback, though I think Mansa and Ender are both offering great suggestions. But not permitting players to update their characters, ESPECIALLY after a change like this, feels unfair and inconsiderate.

Players are trying to craft stories, and in a MUD those stories often need coded skills to back them up, and when you change skills around you're changing the story on them without giving them the opportunity to adjust so that the character feels right to them. I remember being stuck with an "old class" when the new classes went in and not being allowed the option of switching to one of the new classes, and though I stuck with the character for sake of playing out their storyline, it felt immensely unfair to be stuck with an old class when a similar "new class" would have both suited them better as a character and far outstripped my current class in sheer utility.

Saying hard no and forcing characters to remain grandfathered and stuck with their old classes and subs through changes like these only makes players feel embittered and left behind. If they want to stick with what they've got, great, but for the long-term characters and for the players who play for story and would like to be able to evolve, it's demotivating. Give us player agency to decide whether we want to update or stay with what we have and support that, because you will already be going through the effort of updating many of our skills anyway. It is NOT going to be that much more effort in the long run and it will vastly impact the morale of your playerbase to be given that agency rather than to yet again be told "your story isn't worth it."

Quote from: Dresan on June 20, 2022, 08:41:04 PM
I might have misunderstood some of the intent here with two skill subclasses classes. Still a good idea still though.

Quote from: Ender on June 20, 2022, 08:21:55 PM
I think the two skill masteries are missing some vital synergy for them to be applicable and desirable.  I think they could get one more skill that maxes at journeyman level that works together well with their mastery

I agree with this, I would bump them up to three skills. City sneak could get listen, then you could remove scan mastery all together.

This in particular I agree with (Ender's suggestions, and Dresan's further addition).

Give me an example of a player being left behind with this change that would need a subclass change to not be left behind.

And not an example where it is just a couple of skills difference between an Extended Subclass going away and it's replacement.

If you can't understand how switching skills around on characters impacts the player's story and agency to tell that story, no amount of examples is going to change your mind, and frankly after having submitted extensive and carefully thought out suggestions both through the request tool and the GDB only to feel ignored, I don't have the emotional bandwidth. Attitudes like yours are why players are leaving the game and I'm just about done. Every time I think I'm coming around to having fun again in spite of the attitude I get by trying to stick up for players and offer feedback that comes from having played experience with X and Y, things like this happen and posts like yours happen.

I'm glad you're finally making the changes and I appreciate all the effort that you put in and how much work it will be, I truly am and I truly do. I wish you could understand how brusquely you come across and how little you seem to care about the impacts these changes have on players and their characters. What should be an exciting change now feels scary and uncertain because we aren't being given the opportunity to adjust our characters, if desired, to the coded specs that would suit their story, both how it has played out in the past or how it might be evolving.

You want me to do more emotional labor of writing out carefully thought out examples but every time I've done so I've been ignored. Why should I bother? What proof have I been given that it will be worth that effort?

I can explain myself blue in the face but if you don't want to listen to me you won't. I've learned my lesson.

Here's another category:

Thievery Subclasses:

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Con Artist	Hide	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	City Stealth
Cutpurse Thief	Hide	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Peek	Advanced
	Steal	Advanced
	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	City Stealth
Rogue	Hide	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Search	Advanced
	Pick	Advanced
	City Stealth
Slipknife	Hide	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Poisoning	Advanced
	Throw	Journeyman
	Backstab	Advanced
	City Stealth

Change #1 - Con Artist - Bump Hide, Value, Haggle to Advanced.  Add Scan to Advanced.
Change #2 - Retire Cutpurse, bump Thief up.  Do not add Sap.
No change to Rogue.
No change to Slipknife.


The thievery subclasses tend to have a singular skill focus (Pick, Poisoning, Steal), and then have other stealthy skills built around them.

Suggested Change #1 - Give Peek to Con Artist.  Con Artist is very similar to Bard and House Servant, and those subclasses have an extra skill to make it special.  Peek is an under-utilized and underpowered skill.

Delirium, what I am saying is everything was designed to hopefully be additive.  Yes, I can understand that an Outdoorsman might look at Hunter and say "I would rather be that."  But until this point Outdoorsman was presumably doing fine for that character, and the power levels are not different.  So in terms of fit to character, this wouldn't seem to match your concerns.

If someone wants to change from Outdoorsman to Master Chef, it is a leap sideways that isn't even aligned with the substitute class.  Hopefully this isn't an example of what you mean but I don't know for sure.


When I ask for an example I am specifically asking you to try to change my mind, through an example(s) that makes sense and is well reasoned.

Con Artist was also given scan.

You seem to feel all the changes are additive to current classes, but from what I've looked at some subclasses are really changing in mentality and extended classes are being removed entirely in favor of new ones.

Why is it so hard to understand that in those cases players might want to switch?

Obviously the switch would need to make sense for the character's story and background.

I also feel like good suggestions (such as adding journeyman skills to balance the "two master" subs) are getting overlooked.

I am looking at subclasses in isolation, not in conjunction with classes.

To use Hunter/Outdoorsman as an example, there are some skills changing, but I wouldn't say the mentality has changed.  If you do, then I'd like to understand the thinking (just an example, not specifically this combo).  But how I view it may be fundamentally different that how you view it.  The key is that it isn't the viewpoint that matters, it is the reasoning used to get there, which is why high level statements do not really work.

As for the Two Mastery + Journeyman idea, it is simply something my own reaction is to say no to (as it gets rid of some of the sacrifice that balances out the best skill levels), but I need to talk to other Staff about as well as letting the idea percolate here.  It isn't something I feel particularly strongly about either way, so you aren't getting a yes/no a couple of hours after the suggestion.

I'm not asking for a yes/no answer right this minute but I do want to make sure they're at least being considered, because

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 10:00:00 PM
I am looking at subclasses in isolation, not in conjunction with classes.

THAT is the problem with the "two master" classes, and if you're not looking at how these subs might line up with the main classes, then we have another problem and a vastly different approach to balancing out the current issues with the classes and subclasses which I've already posted and spoken about ad nauseam.

Not sure I understand these images. For Forester->Woodworker, what level of haggle and and club making will they get?

I took the population of subclasses that players choose from 2021.

I merged the population of the expected "retiring" subclasses and what their replacements will be that have been listed in the first post.

I get this:
(https://i.imgur.com/Z8qJd9h.png)
(You might need to click it to get a bigger version of it)



Outliers are:
Master Potter (and I think it should be retired)
Lancer (Everybody gets piercing weapon skills now, up to Journeyman.  Get piercing up to Advanced with combat skills doesn't seem to be an advantage.  Maybe if it got backstab too?)
Bruiser (Almost everybody gets bludgeoning weapon skills now, for the most part.  It doesn't seem to be very attractive, similar to Lancer)
Hunter (with it combined with Outdoorsman) means a lot of players took it.
Physician (with it combined with Apothecary) means a lot of players took it.

And
Roughrider.


Nobody 4 Players choose Roughrider in 2021.  I think because the skills are a bad choice compared to what else is available.   They get so few additional skills, no player sees value in choosing them.
I believe this situation (no players will choose them) will be similar these the newly designed "Master" subclasses:
Wild Stealth mastery   (why not choose Outdoorsman?)
City Stealth Mastery   (why not choose Slipknife?)
Archery Mastery   (why not choose Outdoorsman?)
Scan Mastery  (why not choose Outdoorsman?)
Skinning Mastery  (why not choose Outdoorsman?)


I think Poisoning Master might be the only one to have some players choose them.

Quote from: mansa on June 20, 2022, 10:55:51 PMCity Stealth Mastery   (why not choose Slipknife?)

Advanced vs master is a significant difference when it comes to stealth. I would pair a master stealth subclass with heavy combat (raider, enforcer, fighter). Or with soldier, for a really well rounded city-based combatant that gets max stealth and max scan.

Well i won't lie, MAX skill archery and stealth skills are nice, nice enough to be good stand alones depending on how you want to play your character. But times have changed and not everyone has the time to invest in his game that they used to have.

There is a reason why stalker and raider are so attractive, they can do a lot regardless of subguild choices. This is important to think about when your time is limited and you want to maximize the fun you can create for yourself in this game.   Direction sense is an important time saver and may allow you to make the most of your time in game especially if you play in the south/redstorm.

Additionally, the only murderhobos I've normally seen in game are usually sponsored roles and high karma muls/magickers.  I am not even sure infiltrator is as popular as raiders or stalkers even after its buffs (I would love to see a current chart of class distribution over the last few months if anyone feels up to it).

That is why between master charge and low level direction sense, I feel most people would choose a class/subclass with some level of direction sense if they are looking to take their class outside the city for any reason.

I really like these suggestions overall. One thing that came to mind:

The new variant of archer/marksman only gets archery in the mockup, not the other ranged skills. The current marksman has all of them, that's a significant downgrade.
Edited to add: There should be some way to get the other ranged skills (at least sling use and blowgun use - I think everyone gets crossbows already?) via subclasses. Either let archer keep them, or at least make them accessible via another subclass.

Generally, sling use is underused. From a realism standpoint, it's the most efficient and accessible way to hunt small game that flees (jozhal, gurth and the like), due to the general ease of finding some rocks. Maybe add this to hunter and possibly other outdoorsy subclasses. The level doesn't even need to be particularly high to be useful, even at journeyman.

Another edit:
If the new archer ends up with too many skills, remove direction sense and featherworking. I'm not sure what those are doing there in the first place - afaik you don't need featherworking to make ammunition. Direction sense is nice to have for everyone, but I don't see the connection to archery.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 05:54:28 PM

You may have noticed roughrider is missing.  It becomes the first subclass for an additional proposal.  These would be zero karma subclasses that only get two paired skills.  You'll notice the words master in red.  That is because these two skills would be at the max skill level any guild gets the skill.  Current proposed subclasses of this nature:

(https://i.imgur.com/HUPuY4Y.png)

This is not an all or nothing proposal, and the decision to even move forwards with it hasn't been made yet.  Feel free to give your feedback.  You can be for part of it and against part of it.  You can comment on which skills you feel should be included or not, but keep in mind the principles around how we would intend to update the subclasses due to lack of versioning.  If you are proposing something that doesn't work within that, it will likely get ignored.

I think these are either absurdly useless or absurdly high utility. I would much rather see a subguild that applies the city+wild flag to stealth, scan, and hunt than split up these stealth masteries in such a cluttery way. It also seems really ridiculous to allow enforcer/raider to rock max dual max stealths. Currently access to poison+brew is very restricted. The only guilds that have both are fence, miscreant, and stalker. Access to poison from subguilds is heavily restricted, only existing on slipknife and drovian touched (which also both provide stealth flags).
Roughrider doesn't need master chargeride, it needs direction sense. Enabling enforcer, fighter, or even raider (to a lesser extent) to get master ride is something that absolutely boggles my mind considering how powerful that could potentially be.

Quote from: Dresan on June 20, 2022, 07:28:25 PM
This is good idea. I would love to see this implemented.

The only feedback/suggestion i would have is that you have k1 and k2 options for the same subguilds, the only difference is k1 and k2 options would have higher skill caps. There is a big difference between advanced stealth and (maxed) master stealth in terms of usefulness, same with skills like archery, backstab and sap.

My suggestion is you balanced the subclasses in terms of skill but keep skill caps for k0 as currently extended subclass levels. However,  the skill cap on subclasses would then be boosted for k1 and k2 levels options, each options perhaps having 1 more maxed skill than the other. Of course, k1 or k2 options would consume karma.

I would rather see higher karma players playing raiders with more strong mundane skills, or with other interesting mundane traits then just another raider/magicker.

Lastly, rough rider should have direction sense as the classes who are most likely to pick this subclass would require that skill to make the most use of riding.

ew no

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 07:48:52 PM

Quote from: mansa on June 20, 2022, 07:33:19 PM
Caravan Guide - No Change
Linguist - No Change


Suggested Change #1 - Give Bard "Steal" at Advanced.   I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Bard "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Steal", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #3 - Give House Servant "Sleight of Hand" at Advanced.  I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #4 - Give House Servant "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Sleight of Hands", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #5 - Give House Servant "Brew" at Advanced.  Reason - I think any class with Floristry should also get Brew.
Suggested Change #6 - Bump House Servant "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #7 - Bump Caravan Guide "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #8 - Give Linguist "Value" at Advanced.

Caravan Guide actually has nearly master pilot now, and wilderness quit which it didn't before.

7 skill maximum.

I am approaching this with an eye toward what skills make sense for the role, rather than trying to squeeze in all the skills that might be "missing".

http://armageddon.org/help/view/caravan%20guide
Please update the helpfile to include this very important information.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 08:11:29 PM
Nomad already have spearmaking, so it isn't going away.  Nomad having spearmaking I think was intended as a big hint that nomad should use....spears.

Also, I think of nomads as Tribals.  In a tribe.  Not oriented to living in the wastes alone, but rather with...their tribe.

Which is why I redid Wastelanders with Bendune.  Those tribals that are more self-sufficient.

Having different subclasses be near carbon copies of each other defeats part of the point of this exercise.

The currently existing options for pc tribals are
1) play in an existing coded tribe, restricting options heavily
2) do a family rolecall tribe and then find three other players to play with you with no repicks in the event of one flaking
3) play a solo tribal with an entirely virtual tribe with the consequence that you are literally on your own
Having actual other PCs who are also members of your tribe is extremely costly in the form of restrictions and the reality of it is that a vast majority of tribal PCs are played completely solo. Solo PC tribals often opt to either band together or just like become a city PC and ignore the fact that in three or so generations their bloodline will not speak a lick of bendune and accept cultural assimilation.

The reality of tribal gameplay is that self sufficency is something that should be heavily prioritized by players making tribal characters.

Giving bendune/bendune accent as a benefit to a subguild is not very desirable when compared to other languages because characters of almost any race can pick "nomadic origin" which gives players bendune and benduneaccent for free along with a container belt that can be opened and closed. I'm not joking about the belt. I love that thing and its sheer utility,

Quote from: Ender on June 20, 2022, 08:21:55 PM
snip

I think this post is a good example of the differences between what people expect from a subguild and what the "dual mastery" subguilds provide. They will end up being incredibly situational and overshadowed except when someone picks perhaps enforcer+wild stealth and then becomes an absolute terror abusing the master backstab/sap/bash with max dual stealths

Quote from: Delirium on June 20, 2022, 08:46:19 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 07:16:44 PM

Quote from: Ender on June 20, 2022, 06:22:47 PM

you'll need to wish up to have us add those skills manually, one by one.

Then why not simply allow a subguild change?

If a staffer changes a PC's subguild it will reset all of their skills to the starting level of the guild and staff would also have to manually update every single one of your skills back to the previous level. It is possible that is an amount of labor staff is unwilling to perform for every existing PC.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 08:28:51 PM
Mansa, you keep making mistakes.  Master Chef, for instance, would not be listed out if there were no changes.   I even listed out the subclasses that have no changes.

And please, if you are going to do bulk suggestions, provide the reasoning.

Do you find masa's suggestions objectionable for any non pedantic reason?

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 10:00:00 PM
I am looking at subclasses in isolation, not in conjunction with classes.

Subclasses need the context of other subclasses that they will exist alongside in order to be meaningfully evaluated. Looking at each of them in a vaccum can lead to many same-y subclasses or subclasses that provide things that are very valuable compared to similar subclasses. The citystealthy subclasses each having a different main focus the way mansa is showing them I think is really good but a lot of the proposed guilds that give advanced ride+dsense just don't feel that fantastic when considering what skills they would overlap with the guilds I might expect to pick them on (fighter/enforcer lines)

Eight posts in a short amount of time. I guess you have a lot to say.

Quote from: Lotion on June 21, 2022, 09:03:51 AM
Much Stuff

My thoughts:

• If the two skill subguilds seems a bit powerful then I would still recommend adding an addition skill and making it a 1 karma option plus restricting them as a choice for karma races.
• If staff feels the karma options are too strong to see continuously then i would recommend decrease karma regen time across the board
• If staff feels people just stop playing in order to pick karma options continuously I would recommend having karma regen time be based on in-game play time (something i think the game should actually do to properly balance karma options)

In my opinion seeing raider with max stealth mastery is still better for the game than continuously seeing raider/stalker/infiltrator- magick anything subguild. Again nothing against magickers, its a cool theme and people should be allowed to play them. I even support the return of full magickers someday and thought it was great staff announced additional support for magicker for opportunity for further character development, assuming they are RP'ing out their magick and engaged with Staff via reports and such.

However, it is too one sided, the options for experienced players that want to continue playing/supporting the mundane in-game world don't even remotely come close to the possibilities that open up as a magick subclass(including touched). This is even more apparent if joining a clan doesn't fit your limited availability.   The mundane karma options should just be as cool as the magicker ones.

Mansa, When talking about the aggressor subs, one has to think of them as basically one sub. They all do the same thing but each has a different weapon skill.

And there is a reason to take each one, including bruiser and lancer even if your main class does already get piercing or blunt.

But it is unfair to only look at the numbers of one of them, they really should be taken as a whole.

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on June 20, 2022, 11:09:29 PM

Quote from: mansa on June 20, 2022, 10:55:51 PMCity Stealth Mastery   (why not choose Slipknife?)

Advanced vs master is a significant difference when it comes to stealth. I would pair a master stealth subclass with heavy combat (raider, enforcer, fighter). Or with soldier, for a really well rounded city-based combatant that gets max stealth and max scan.

I was on board with the master sub guilds until this and then I realized you'd have max stealth city/wild heavy combat characters with (I mean potentially) master backstab running around and being the best at heavy combat AND stealth AND stealth murder seems to be incongruous with previous class balancing.

I keep seeing people suggest rough rider needs direction sense; I've suggested that in the past (along with adding wilderness food forage) and been ignored and so many others have too. It's hilarious to me that the obvious, logical fix to make rough rider not suck as a subclass keeps being what I can only assume is deliberately ignored at this point.

Quote from: Lotion on June 21, 2022, 09:06:40 AM

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 07:48:52 PM

Quote from: mansa on June 20, 2022, 07:33:19 PM
Caravan Guide - No Change
Linguist - No Change


Suggested Change #1 - Give Bard "Steal" at Advanced.   I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #2 - Give Bard "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Steal", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #3 - Give House Servant "Sleight of Hand" at Advanced.  I think it goes with the fantasy.
Suggested Change #4 - Give House Servant "Peek" at Advanced.   If they don't get "Sleight of Hands", perhaps they could get "Peek" - it would be good to cheat at Kruth cards.
Suggested Change #5 - Give House Servant "Brew" at Advanced.  Reason - I think any class with Floristry should also get Brew.
Suggested Change #6 - Bump House Servant "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #7 - Bump Caravan Guide "Pilot" to Master
Suggested Change #8 - Give Linguist "Value" at Advanced.

Caravan Guide actually has nearly master pilot now, and wilderness quit which it didn't before.

7 skill maximum.

I am approaching this with an eye toward what skills make sense for the role, rather than trying to squeeze in all the skills that might be "missing".

http://armageddon.org/help/view/caravan%20guide
Please update the helpfile to include this very important information.

In the proposal "now".  Not live and should be in the helpfiles "now".

Quote from: Lotion on June 21, 2022, 09:25:17 AM

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 08:28:51 PM
Mansa, you keep making mistakes.  Master Chef, for instance, would not be listed out if there were no changes.   I even listed out the subclasses that have no changes.

And please, if you are going to do bulk suggestions, provide the reasoning.

Do you find masa's suggestions objectionable for any non pedantic reason?

A slew of suggestions without reasoning behind them isn't very helpful for determining direction or whether this should move forwards.

He probably thought the reasoning was self-evident and/or didn't want to clutter up the thread with walls of text. It's more or less a proven fact that the shorter and snappier you keep your posts the more likely it is to actually be seen.

After thought I do not like the master subclass suggestions at all because they're both too limited (in the amount of skills they offer) and too powerful in conjunction with tier 1 combat classes. The ONLY combo I'd see not being too powerful is master scan/listen paired with Fighter because it'd give Fighters at least some counter to raiders/enforcers in late-game play, but let's be real, even master scan is not going to beat advanced hide + hide gear the majority of the time.

Just fix rough rider by adding jman dsense and wilderness forage and bumping the cap of either ride or charge to master.

The rest of the master classes seem like more trouble than they're worth when looked at holistically and not in a vaccum.

Quote from: Delirium on June 21, 2022, 10:42:00 AM
I keep seeing people suggest rough rider needs direction sense; I've suggested that in the past (along with adding wilderness food forage) and been ignored and so many others have too. It's hilarious to me that the obvious, logical fix to make rough rider not suck as a subclass keeps being what I can only assume is deliberately ignored at this point.

Not being ignored.  I don't know whether to take it back down to 4-7 skills but not master level, to deprecate it, or something else.  If there is a pair of skills that don't make sense for mastery (to the whole system doesn't make sense) it is easy enough not do them.  As I have mentioned before, this time you are included before any of the actual decisions have been made on whether to proceed or not.

If players are stuck with a deprecated subclass (that literally proves it sucks) and aren't allowed the option to switch to a new subguild, PLEASE at least let them add a couple related skills that they think would make sense (to jman level, nothing wild). Leaving them stuck with a bad subguild that is bad that people have repeatedly suggested fixes for would be horribly frustrating.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 21, 2022, 11:04:39 AM

Quote from: Delirium on June 21, 2022, 10:42:00 AM
I keep seeing people suggest rough rider needs direction sense; I've suggested that in the past (along with adding wilderness food forage) and been ignored and so many others have too. It's hilarious to me that the obvious, logical fix to make rough rider not suck as a subclass keeps being what I can only assume is deliberately ignored at this point.

Not being ignored.  I don't know whether to take it back down to 4-7 skills but not master level, to deprecate it, or something else.  If there is a pair of skills that don't make sense for mastery (to the whole system doesn't make sense) it is easy enough not do them.  As I have mentioned before, this time you are included before any of the actual decisions have been made on whether to proceed or not.

Yea, the more I'm thinking about it, the masteries would create more problems than they'd fix giving top tier classes too much umph, and giving mid tier classes not enough which would push top tier combat classes even further away from their mid tier counterparts.

An enforcer with master poisoning, a raider with master hide, a fighter with master scan (actually that one would be ok, poor Fighter is the worst) is just too imbalancing, and for the lower tiers they really get no real benefit from them that they wouldn't already have.

It does feel like these are made to support roughrider which really does feel like the worst extended subguild that is completely demolished by not having direction sense.

Honestly I've been of the opinion that direction sense in general (and to a lesser extent how climb works in the wilderness) are really anti-fun an exclusionary for any PC that does not have them in a game that has a dwindling playerbase.  Especially in places like Red Storm, for a PC that does not have direction sense it does not create a "Oh this storm is dangerous" feeling, it creates a "well, I can't do anything, so I might as well log off" feeling for characters without direction sense.

Quote from: Ender on June 21, 2022, 11:17:09 AM
Honestly I've been of the opinion that direction sense in general (and to a lesser extent how climb works in the wilderness) are really anti-fun an exclusionary for any PC that does not have them in a game that has a dwindling playerbase.  Especially in places like Red Storm, for a PC that does not have direction sense it does not create a "Oh this storm is dangerous" feeling, it creates a "well, I can't do anything, so I might as well log off" feeling for characters without direction sense.

Yep. Especially considering the blinding storms primarily happen in places where you won't just get turned around and lost, you'll very possibly fall to a guaranteed death. Especially considering the way climb is implemented, with a critfail or fail knocking you out for 10-20 minutes or so, leaving you utterly helpless. That's not fun for anyone, that's Gary Gygax style "rocks fall you die" style gameplay that went out with the dodo about 10-15 years ago.

Quote from: Ender on June 21, 2022, 11:17:09 AM
Honestly I've been of the opinion that direction sense in general (and to a lesser extent how climb works in the wilderness) are really anti-fun an exclusionary for any PC that does not have them in a game that has a dwindling playerbase.  Especially in places like Red Storm, for a PC that does not have direction sense it does not create a "Oh this storm is dangerous" feeling, it creates a "well, I can't do anything, so I might as well log off" feeling for characters without direction sense.

I agree with this sentiment.


However, in regards to master stealth subguilds, again I would be okay with it if it had a karma requirement which consumed karma.

And let me just add I might have still agreed that the subclasses were too powerful before infiltrator buffs or additional magick subclasses. However, I think the infiltrator class now has a good enough tool set to achieve decent murderhobo results with or without a karma subclass.

And heck, I want to believe that the only thing that will change is weathered high endurance dwarves might need to watch their backs a bit more instead of just aides and merchants, that is assuming an enforcer puts in the work to branch sap or backstab. But then again, enforcer stealth is viable enough currently to achieve that with enough training and bountry hunter sub-guild so meh.

We can trust players with powerful magicks that can render anything a mundane can do moot but not trust them with more powerful mundane abilities?  :-\

I think it's pretty obvious by now that I think subguild mages were a huge mistake and subguild sorcerers even moreso. Jury's out on psi's. But I already explained all that in another thread. That can of worms can stay there.

Quote from: Ender on June 21, 2022, 11:17:09 AM
Yea, the more I'm thinking about it, the masteries would create more problems than they'd fix giving top tier classes too much umph, and giving mid tier classes not enough which would push top tier combat classes even further away from their mid tier counterparts.

Top tier combat with master stealth is pretty overpowered, but it's not worse than top tier combat + any number of magick options. (Which, of course, are karma-limited and more restrictive. I am concerned about new account #567 achieving instagib power, but that's not a new problem...any enforcer with good stats and some time can get there.)

One concern I have with the master stealth subguild is...if you're playing a raider, obviously you're gonna pick master city stealth, and vice-versa with enforcer. Is it time to think about separating sneak and hide into city and wilderness skills? We have a ton of classes getting stealth today, and a ton of subclasses giving stealth options. It's a far cry from 2010's "assassin with hunter subguild."

I don't understand why there's so much resistance to an obvious, simple fix to roughrider that's been suggested multiple times by different people but now we're stuck on this "master skill" subclass tree discussion instead, which felt created entirely to support the idea of refusing to add skills to roughrider and bumping what they do have to master.

I'm halfway tempted to ask for some examples to justify the reasoning behind it but I've been salty enough already.

I'll be honest, I didn't read this thread in it's entirety. I'm sick IRL and trying to parse all this information has been difficult at best. After a good amount of reading and skimming, I feel like I probably missed this in here but I can't seem to find it so excuse me if I'm asking a redundant question.

What exactly is the intended purpose of subclasses?

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 10:00:00 PM
I am looking at subclasses in isolation, not in conjunction with classes.

I don't know if this bit means specifically in this instance, or in general. Especially because I'm pulling it out of context and already forgot what it's in response to. I don't hold my opinion in high regard because I can barely manage to play Arm these days. I don't have the stability in my life for it presently. So take what I say with a bucket of salt. I've always been under the impression classes were meant to supply the more meat of your skills, and by and large fit the core theme of your character's story. Then subclasses fill out the utility and quirky bits that are especially unique to their story, vs the general story the class fulfills. With certain skills (or level of skill) being relegated to class-only. If subclasses are being designed independently of classes that kind of throws my fundamental idea of their existence out the window and my personal idea of balance. I'm not going to say my way is the right way, but I'd like to understand what the intended direction is meant to be so I can better make suggestions that are in line with that stream of logic and ultimately make my peace with it.

Quote from: Delirium on June 21, 2022, 12:25:01 PM
I don't understand why there's so much resistance to an obvious, simple fix to roughrider that's been suggested multiple times by different people but now we're stuck on this "master skill" subclass tree discussion instead, which felt created entirely to support the idea of refusing to add skills to roughrider and bumping what they do have to master.

I'm halfway tempted to ask for some examples to justify the reasoning behind it but I've been salty enough already.

Actually I started with the idea of addressing feedback from awhile ago how none of the subclasses get maxed stealth and worked backwards from there.

Quote from: Mercy on June 21, 2022, 12:28:13 PM
I'll be honest, I didn't read this thread in it's entirety. I'm sick IRL and trying to parse all this information has been difficult at best. After a good amount of reading and skimming, I feel like I probably missed this in here but I can't seem to find it so excuse me if I'm asking a redundant question.

What exactly is the intended purpose of subclasses?

Quote from: Brokkr on June 20, 2022, 10:00:00 PM
I am looking at subclasses in isolation, not in conjunction with classes.

I don't know if this bit means specifically in this instance, or in general. Especially because I'm pulling it out of context and already forgot what it's in response to. I don't hold my opinion in high regard because I can barely manage to play Arm these days. I don't have the stability in my life for it presently. So take what I say with a bucket of salt. I've always been under the impression classes were meant to supply the more meat of your skills, and by and large fit the core theme of your character's story. Then subclasses fill out the utility and quirky bits that are especially unique to their story, vs the general story the class fulfills. With certain skills (or level of skill) being relegated to class-only. If subclasses are being designed independently of classes that kind of throws my fundamental idea of their existence out the window and my personal idea of balance. I'm not going to say my way is the right way, but I'd like to understand what the intended direction is meant to be so I can better make suggestions that are in line with that stream of logic and ultimately make my peace with it.

If you look at how subclasses are oriented, its around a role.  How can a subclass enable a certain role, usually related to its name but not always (Outdoorsman just being Hunter+ for instance).  Not how it can mesh with classes to min/max your utility.

The problem with designing subclasses independent of classes is that it ignores:

- People use subclasses to flesh out their characters so they can fill a role they've envisioned
- Players will min-max. They just will. Dorf rukkian empowerment anyone?

Not looking at how subclasses mesh with main classes ignores both scenarios and ends up with subs that are either going to be extremely attractive because of how powerful they are when combined with x class and/or x race, or extremely unattractive because they don't offer enough to flesh out the gaps in a main class that would allow a player to design their character for the role they wanted.

Here's another Category:

Ride / Exploration:

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Wastelander	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Scan	Master
	Search	Advanced
	Bendune	Master
	Tribal Accent	Master
	Forage Food in Wilderness
	Wilderness Quit
Grebber	Ride	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Hunt	Advanced
	Search	Advanced
	Forage	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Forage Food in City
	Forage Food in Wilderness
Outdoorsman Hunter	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Hunt	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Archery	Advanced
	Skin	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Hide
Nomad	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Haggle	Advanced
	Speakmaking	Advanced
	Bendune	Master
	Tribal Accent	Master
	Wilderness Quit
	Hitch 2 Mounts
Outlaw	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Knife Making	Advanced
	Speakmaking	Advanced
	Armor Repair	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Hunt
Bandit	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Charge	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Hide	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Quit
Mountaineer	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Hide	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Quit
	Forage food in Wilderness

Wastelander Change: Add Ride at Advanced
Grebber: No Change
Retire Outdoorsman, bump Hunter to Outdoorsman skill levels.  Add Ride at Advanced, Remove Hide.
Nomad: Bump Haggle to Advanced, Add Wilderness Quit.
Outlaw:  This wasn't listed, but I assume bump skills to advanced instead of journeyman.
Bandit:  New Subclass focused on charge, threaten, climb, and hide.
Mountaineer: New Subclass focused on Climbing and Outdoor Stealth


Observances:
A lot of these subclasses are similar in skill distribution, with only a couple differences.

Bandit should be replacing "Roughrider".   Roughrider is lacking in skills and having a 'mastery' in the charge/ride skill isn't that good, IMO.   Or you can just merge the two.

Otherwise, I like the new Mountaineer.


Question:  Is it possible to have movement points regen faster, or is that only an option for main classes?

Outlaw - Whelp, yep I forgot one.

MV Regen - Yes, that can be toggled on a subclass.

I know this has been brought up in the past, but it seems to me that since "learns languages faster" is a perk that exists, that linguists should get that perk.  It just seems like such a natural fit.  Someone with more interest and familiarity with languages would tend to learn additional languages quicker.

On a related note, I have always wished there were a subclass that learns accents faster. The bard subclass might be the best fit for this, and possibly linguists as well.

Quote from: flurry on June 21, 2022, 02:58:03 PM
I know this has been brought up in the past, but it seems to me that since "learns languages faster" is a perk that exists, that linguists should get that perk.  It just seems like such a natural fit.  Someone with more interest and familiarity with languages would tend to learn additional languages quicker.

On a related note, I have always wished there were a subclass that learns accents faster. The bard subclass might be the best fit for this, and possibly linguists as well.

Learn Languages Faster is the same perk as Learn Accents Faster, as far as I know.
Linguists get that perk.

https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Linguist
"They are also have a skill for parroting the mannerisms of others - being able to acquire and employ accents with ease."

Quote from: mansa on June 21, 2022, 02:59:38 PM
https://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Linguist
"They are also have a skill for parroting the mannerisms of others - being able to acquire and employ accents with ease."

Okay, half-giants should totally get that as a racial perk.

Quote from: Nao on June 21, 2022, 04:57:16 AM
I really like these suggestions overall. One thing that came to mind:

The new variant of archer/marksman only gets archery in the mockup, not the other ranged skills. The current marksman has all of them, that's a significant downgrade.
Edited to add: There should be some way to get the other ranged skills (at least sling use and blowgun use - I think everyone gets crossbows already?) via subclasses. Either let archer keep them, or at least make them accessible via another subclass.

Generally, sling use is underused. From a realism standpoint, it's the most efficient and accessible way to hunt small game that flees (jozhal, gurth and the like), due to the general ease of finding some rocks. Maybe add this to hunter and possibly other outdoorsy subclasses. The level doesn't even need to be particularly high to be useful, even at journeyman.

Another edit:
If the new archer ends up with too many skills, remove direction sense and featherworking. I'm not sure what those are doing there in the first place - afaik you don't need featherworking to make ammunition. Direction sense is nice to have for everyone, but I don't see the connection to archery.

Did I say something stupid here, or just got drowned out by Lotion?

No I just haven't had time to think about it much, working to get stuff I could put in front of players for guilds.

I agree it should be in one of the subs, just not sure where atm.

I don't know why archer has featherworking, it was one of the original skills.  So not taking it away (since that would delist from current archers).

Here's The Final Category:

Secondary Combat Skills Focused

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Marksman Archer	Archery	Advanced
	Fletchery	Master
	Bow Making	Master
	Feather Working	Master
	Dyeing	Master
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Crossbow Use
	Blowgun
	Sling Use
Protector Guard	Guarding	Advanced
	Parry	Advanced
	Shield Use	Advanced
	Rescue	Journeyman
	Subdue	Journeyman
	Watch	Advanced
	Bandage
	Flee
Bounty Hunter	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Hunt	Advanced
	Subdue	Advanced
	Sap	Advanced
	City Hunt
	Wilderness Hunt
Thug	Bash	Advanced
	Flee	Advanced
	Kick	Advanced
	Subdue	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Sap	Advanced

Change #1:  Retire Marskman, Bump Archer skills up.  Do not give Archer blowgun/crossbow/sling use
Change #2:  Retire Protector, Bump Guard up.  Do not give Guard Flee or Bandage
Change #3:  Bump Bounty Hunter's skills to Advanced
Change #4:  Bump Thug's skills to Advanced



Suggested Change #1:
Like Nao mentioned, I think Archer should have crossbow use, blowgun, or sling use.   Perhaps just sling use.   Otherwise those skills won't be available in a subclass format at all.

Suggested Change #2:
I think Guard should get bandage at Advanced.  I don't think a lot of players use it, and it would be beneficial to have it in a skillset that Guard has.

Alright, I'm done with my in-depth review.

Final Thoughts:

If the subclass gets wilderness quit, it should also get a better movement regeneration rate.
If the subclass gets direction sense, it should also get a better movement regeneration rate.


I do not like the "two Mastery" subclass idea at all.  I think subclasses should cap at Advanced for most skills.  I think it adds more complexity and balance issues.
I am intrigued at the master poisoner, but I think it can be replaced with a subclass that gets those skills:
"Alchemist" -
Poison - (low) Advanced
Brew - Advanced
Forage - Advanced
Floristry - Advanced
Cooking - Advanced


Bandit should replace "Roughrider" and Roughrider should be retired.
Master Potter should also be retired, as it is a duplicate of the new "Crafter"

This is cool. And I 100% approve.

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on June 21, 2022, 12:20:56 PM
Is it time to think about separating sneak and hide into city and wilderness skills? We have a ton of classes getting stealth today, and a ton of subclasses giving stealth options. It's a far cry from 2010's "assassin with hunter subguild."

I remember suggesting this a long time ago and it wasn't met with positivity from anyone, especially staff if i remember correctly..

I am not sure how easy this change would be to do, especially with the gear update required but i would support it.

That said, it would feel like a massive nerf to a number of mundane classes without something to counter it.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 21, 2022, 01:09:35 PM

Quote from: Delirium on June 21, 2022, 12:25:01 PM
I don't understand why there's so much resistance to an obvious, simple fix to roughrider that's been suggested multiple times by different people but now we're stuck on this "master skill" subclass tree discussion instead, which felt created entirely to support the idea of refusing to add skills to roughrider and bumping what they do have to master.

I'm halfway tempted to ask for some examples to justify the reasoning behind it but I've been salty enough already.

Actually I started with the idea of addressing feedback from awhile ago how none of the subclasses get maxed stealth and worked backwards from there.

Stealth flags are more important than max stealth. I think no subguild should give higher stealth than some nebulous concept of "high advanced". A stalker or miscreant can still take their max stealth and gain more stealth flags through subguilds. Stalker/cutpurse is fantastic fun. Touched whiran is a great example of a very flexible and useful subguild when viewed from a mundane lens. It gives both listens to a reasonable level, both scans to jman, both sneakhides to jman. By itself it's very mediocre but the sheer utility of a miscreant/stalker paired with the mundane skills of touched whiran is absolutely fantastic.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 21, 2022, 02:21:16 PM
Outlaw - Whelp, yep I forgot one.

MV Regen - Yes, that can be toggled on a subclass.

If there was a subclass that got stalker regen... oh baby

The 'mastery' classes aren't great, the others are good.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, which I feel like I am doing, but the impression I'm getting here is that class and subclass balance is literally not on the table. Subclasses are effectively "Small Classes". My earlier statement wasn't with min/maxing your utility in mind, but simply enabling utility outside of what the base class offer. What I'm seeing presently, looks like creating subclasses with the idea of min/maxing your utility because subclasses offer skills at maximums previously available exclusively to classes. Granted, my meta-knowledge of skills and skillcaps is limited as all fuck. I used to take that shit way too seriously for my liking, and these days I look at skills through the lens of "at what level can my character realistically portray confidence vs just lying through their teeth" and what things are likely to just straight up murder me if I don't understand how the code works (coughccoughlcoughicoughmcoughbcough). So maybe I'm mistaken. Maybe this is already a thing and I just haven't paid enough attention, and it's just being consolidated into a tighter list.

(oh snap I just saw the class thread)

If I'm not misunderstanding, than I have no feedback. I genuinely can't wrap my head around it to offer meaningful input. Not to suggest it isn't a good approach, I just don't know enough.

A few thoughts:

-Make certain sub guilds only available with certain class choices or through karma spends. Make certain combos reachable only through special application (that's what it's there for, right?)
-Make Mages classes instead of sub-classes. I feel this would balance things pretty smoothly.
-Make mastery choices available LATER in the game cycle. They can unlock when you reach certain days played, or X in certain synergies of your class skills. You pick it at creation of the PC, but don't get it until later.

I think advanced stealth from subclasses should be at old infiltrator levels. Good, but not so good master scan won't spot you on a regular basis.

That said, I really want to see a stealth mastery subclass.

It is worth karma and something as cool as magicker subguilds in my opinion.

I think mastery subguilds in general need some tweeks but its a good idea overall that brings flavor to the game. 

I don't have a huge opinion on master subclasses, but by God, please just keep every mundane subclass at 0 karma from here on out. Let us karma nerds show off with fancy races and magick, but do at least leave one area of the game open for all to have full potential. I cannot stress enough how strongly I feel that some level of parity for newer people is necessary in my book.

Quote from: Patuk on June 22, 2022, 08:43:38 AM
please just keep every mundane subclass at 0 karma from here on out. Let us karma nerds show off with fancy races and magick, but do at least leave one area of the game open for all to have full potential. I cannot stress enough how strongly I feel that some level of parity for newer people is necessary in my book.

Agreed. I can see a couple exceptions for extremely powerful combos but they should only cost 1 karma and not spend it (like ex subs work now).

Quote from: Delirium on June 22, 2022, 09:25:34 AM
Agreed. I can see a couple exceptions for extremely powerful combos but they should only cost 1 karma and not spend it (like ex subs work now).

I want to see more powerful combos. I lean towards karma options since I assume they would be stronger.

However, i do believe the karma should be consumed upon choosing it.

The game should really only allow karma regen based time played actively in game to avoid people choosing to stop playing, just to trying to select powerful combinations over and over again. 

Quote from: Veselka on June 21, 2022, 11:16:08 PM
A few thoughts:

-Make certain sub guilds only available with certain class choices or through karma spends. Make certain combos reachable only through special application (that's what it's there for, right?)

specapps are a highly limited resource and spending it to play a mundane with a slightly different skill configuration would have to provide an absurd amount of utility if the goal is to complete with playing a race/gick at karma level n+1

Quote from: Dresan on June 22, 2022, 10:11:04 AM

Quote from: Delirium on June 22, 2022, 09:25:34 AM
Agreed. I can see a couple exceptions for extremely powerful combos but they should only cost 1 karma and not spend it (like ex subs work now).

I want to see more powerful combos. I lean towards karma options since I assume they would be stronger.

However, i do believe the karma should be consumed upon choosing it.

The game should really only allow karma regen based time played actively in game to avoid people choosing to stop playing, just to trying to select powerful combinations over and over again.

If you let karma timers only tick away while actively playing, the people who pause their play are just going to not play.

Genuinely, the degree to which people feel eager to punish each other for wanting to play makes me sad. Please don't. And, again, please leave all mundane subclasses at 0 karma.

Quote from: Patuk on June 22, 2022, 11:52:21 AM
If you let karma timers only tick away while actively playing, the people who pause their play are just going to not play.

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on June 22, 2022, 12:00:59 PM

Quote from: Patuk on June 22, 2022, 11:52:21 AM
If you let karma timers only tick away while actively playing, the people who pause their play are just going to not play.

Or worse, they will literally just app low quality 0k characters for the purpose of idling to regenerate karma.

Re-reading the original post, it looks as if those who end up with a subguild that is deprecated will be given an opportunity to adjust, so my concerns there are moot. I'm still worried about the flavor/skills of a subguild that could have been baked into the character's personality changing and causing awkward breaches in continuity, but if you would literally have to re-set the entire character and not just their subguild, that explains why it would be too much work. In that case I would suggest working with the characters who are affected on a case by case basis and being willing to compromise with them.

Don't wrap yourself up too much in hard red tape rules, because that's a great way to frustrate both sides.

As for actual suggestions on the subguilds themselves, as mentioned in another post, I simply do not have time to go through them blow by blow, and it would probably be best submitted bullet point style either here or in a request.

I think most of Mansa's suggestions are solid. I have a few quibbles here and there.

Hopefully this is something being considered carefully and we'll all have time to gather our thoughts and submit ideas.

Quote from: Delirium on June 23, 2022, 12:47:09 PM
Re-reading the original post, it looks as if those who end up with a subguild that is deprecated will be given an opportunity to adjust, so my concerns there are moot. I'm still worried about the flavor/skills of a subguild that could have been baked into the character's personality changing and causing awkward breaches in continuity,

If you are currently a Fighter/Outdoorsman and this change happens, you would still be Fighter/Outdoorsman.  You you have exactly the same skills in the Outdoorsman subguild that you currently have.  There would be zero change for your character.  As mentioned before, you would simply not be able to choose Outdoorsman in character generation.  The subclass would still exist in the code.

If you are currently a Fighter/Hunter and this change happens, you would still be a Fighter/Hunter.  Your existing skills from Hunter would remain the same, except they would be able to raise to higher levels.  There would be extra skills added to the Hunter subclass, so you could get those added to your character.

I was careful with the zero karma skills to -not- remove any skills, except for one case that is sort of special (it is really just a boost to starting level of a hidden skill).  Which is why here and there some of them have some funky skills, like Archer having featherworking.  Everything would be additive.

My concern is with the subclasses that might get depreciated due to genuine suckage (there are a few which are evidently going away entirely, or at least might be). Are they going to be given the skills of whatever subclass the depreciated one gets combined with-- or to the closest match to that depreciated subclass-- or will they be stuck with what they have?

My impression was that they'd be transferred and get the new skills, which removed my concerns.

As long as the changes are additive, players won't feel screwed over. They can chalk it up to life experience.

If the changes are subtractive, and/or they're left with a deprecated subguild that sucks, those players will feel screwed.

At least when I look over the list of Extended Subs that would not continue, I don't see those sorts of subclasses.  Sure, there may be a skill or two difference, but there isn't the heavy suckage of current Roughrider, Wastelander or Master Chef.  All of which are due to be upgraded, not deprecated.

I'm glad most of the changes are additive, but I'd still argue that in some cases the suggested subguilds definitely seem to be changing in theme and feel, though, or remain confusingly limited (see: roughrider). Master ride/charge is NOT going to make people choose roughrider. Jman direction sense and wilderness food forage would, and both make perfect sense in keeping with the theme of the subclass.

Some players (I suspect most) would rather have more utility, even if they're not great at it (i.e., people in this thread and others saying "shit I'd take apprentice skinning over not at all" -- because it's hilariously difficult to get even just meat off things you kill without having skinning-- hell, I'd take NOVICE skinning over not at all) rather than being The Best At Everything. I'm most certainly one of those.

That still leaves room for those who have mastery in those areas-- and in fact, they are often needed and desirable and wanted-- but it does mean that those who only have middling ability can still function, if poorly, without them.

One of the best ways to grow the playerbase is to make sure players don't feel useless and bored.

Outdoorsman losing hide and Cutpurse loosing sap do feel kinda sad though.

I sort of do not have a problem with outdoorsman losing hide, or sneak for that matter, Assuming two things though.

1: Move skinning back to master, Move Scan to master. And give them wilderness quit.
2: Make a sub that is for the stealthy side of outdoors.

Same on cutpurse, I see no reason it should have had sap anyway, take it out, improve the "cutpurse" Skills and put sap somewhere else.

I mean, they won't.  They just will not be options in chargen anymore.

This is about what to ADD to Hunter and Thief more than it is about what gets removed from Outdoorsman/Cutpurse.  Sneak was put on Hunter because you can use it to....hunt NPCs with.  You don't need the hide piece to do that.

Hunter needs scan at past advanced then.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 23, 2022, 01:06:21 PM

Quote from: Delirium on June 23, 2022, 12:47:09 PM
Re-reading the original post, it looks as if those who end up with a subguild that is deprecated will be given an opportunity to adjust, so my concerns there are moot. I'm still worried about the flavor/skills of a subguild that could have been baked into the character's personality changing and causing awkward breaches in continuity,

If you are currently a Fighter/Outdoorsman and this change happens, you would still be Fighter/Outdoorsman.  You you have exactly the same skills in the Outdoorsman subguild that you currently have.  There would be zero change for your character.  As mentioned before, you would simply not be able to choose Outdoorsman in character generation.  The subclass would still exist in the code.

If you are currently a Fighter/Hunter and this change happens, you would still be a Fighter/Hunter.  Your existing skills from Hunter would remain the same, except they would be able to raise to higher levels.  There would be extra skills added to the Hunter subclass, so you could get those added to your character.

I was careful with the zero karma skills to -not- remove any skills, except for one case that is sort of special (it is really just a boost to starting level of a hidden skill).  Which is why here and there some of them have some funky skills, like Archer having featherworking.  Everything would be additive.

So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

Quote from: Brisket on June 27, 2022, 09:05:28 PM
...
So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

Classes aren't being "combined", so to speak.

The suggested change is to be:
Outdoorsman is being retired and you can never pick it again.
Existing players who have Outdoorsman won't have any of their skills changed.

Existing players who have Hunter will have their skill cap "increased" and may get additional skills.

Quote from: mansa on June 27, 2022, 10:13:10 PM

Quote from: Brisket on June 27, 2022, 09:05:28 PM
...
So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

Classes aren't being "combined", so to speak.

The suggested change is to be:
Outdoorsman is being retired and you can never pick it again.
Existing players who have Outdoorsman won't have any of their skills changed.

Existing players who have Hunter will have their skill cap "increased" and may get additional skills.

That's the same thing, you're just quibbling with words.  Those who chose Outdoorsman get screwed out of ride, those who chose Hunter luck into extra skills.

Quote from: Brisket on June 28, 2022, 12:00:25 AM

Quote from: mansa on June 27, 2022, 10:13:10 PM

Quote from: Brisket on June 27, 2022, 09:05:28 PM
...
So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

Classes aren't being "combined", so to speak.

The suggested change is to be:
Outdoorsman is being retired and you can never pick it again.
Existing players who have Outdoorsman won't have any of their skills changed.

Existing players who have Hunter will have their skill cap "increased" and may get additional skills.

That's the same thing, you're just quibbling with words.  Those who chose Outdoorsman get screwed out of ride, those who chose Hunter luck into extra skills.

outdoorsman does not currently give ride

Quote from: Lotion on June 28, 2022, 12:10:01 AM

Quote from: Brisket on June 28, 2022, 12:00:25 AM

Quote from: mansa on June 27, 2022, 10:13:10 PM

Quote from: Brisket on June 27, 2022, 09:05:28 PM
...
So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

Classes aren't being "combined", so to speak.

The suggested change is to be:
Outdoorsman is being retired and you can never pick it again.
Existing players who have Outdoorsman won't have any of their skills changed.

Existing players who have Hunter will have their skill cap "increased" and may get additional skills.

That's the same thing, you're just quibbling with words.  Those who chose Outdoorsman get screwed out of ride, those who chose Hunter luck into extra skills.

outdoorsman does not currently give ride

Correct, but Hunter - the new class that gives all of Outdoorsman's skills to Hunter - gets Hunter's ride.

Quote from: Brisket on June 28, 2022, 12:39:39 AM

Quote from: Lotion on June 28, 2022, 12:10:01 AM

Quote from: Brisket on June 28, 2022, 12:00:25 AM

Quote from: mansa on June 27, 2022, 10:13:10 PM

Quote from: Brisket on June 27, 2022, 09:05:28 PM
...
So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

Classes aren't being "combined", so to speak.

The suggested change is to be:
Outdoorsman is being retired and you can never pick it again.
Existing players who have Outdoorsman won't have any of their skills changed.

Existing players who have Hunter will have their skill cap "increased" and may get additional skills.

That's the same thing, you're just quibbling with words.  Those who chose Outdoorsman get screwed out of ride, those who chose Hunter luck into extra skills.

outdoorsman does not currently give ride

Correct, but Hunter - the new class that gives all of Outdoorsman's skills to Hunter - gets Hunter's ride.

Hunter does not get Outdoorsman's hide.


There's basically 3 subclasses
Old Hunter
New Hunter
Outdoorsman

Did you want to drop hide for ride?

Quote from: mansa on June 28, 2022, 12:40:19 AM

Quote from: Brisket on June 28, 2022, 12:39:39 AM

Quote from: Lotion on June 28, 2022, 12:10:01 AM

Quote from: Brisket on June 28, 2022, 12:00:25 AM

Quote from: mansa on June 27, 2022, 10:13:10 PM

Quote from: Brisket on June 27, 2022, 09:05:28 PM
...
So if your class is part of the classes that get combined (Hunter/Outdoorsman) but NOT the one that keeps its name, you don't get the bonus skills?  That hardly seems fair.  If you're adding ride to the subguild, it can't be that onerous to fix it for the 5-10 people that it might affect.

Classes aren't being "combined", so to speak.

The suggested change is to be:
Outdoorsman is being retired and you can never pick it again.
Existing players who have Outdoorsman won't have any of their skills changed.

Existing players who have Hunter will have their skill cap "increased" and may get additional skills.

That's the same thing, you're just quibbling with words.  Those who chose Outdoorsman get screwed out of ride, those who chose Hunter luck into extra skills.

outdoorsman does not currently give ride

Correct, but Hunter - the new class that gives all of Outdoorsman's skills to Hunter - gets Hunter's ride.

Hunter does not get Outdoorsman's hide.


There's basically 3 subclasses
Old Hunter
New Hunter
Outdoorsman

Did you want to drop hide for ride?

Well in the instance of Fighter/Outdoorsman Ride does seem much more useful.

And?  Outdoorsman characters would not be loosing any skills they currently have.

Hunter and Outdoorsman would be equivalently powerful.  That will be the bar, not going to worry about some sort of one character per player make whole.

And sort of surprised no one is making suggestions like "Keep hunter and outdoorsman and tweak this and that so they are significantly different to merit still existing".

Staff should probably consider:

• Giving thug city sneak and/or bounty hunter city sneak, as an alternative to getting sap on cutpurse
• Mountaineer sounds like the new grebber(would keep grebber name), would indeed give them master climb and add advanced forage
• Con artist should probably be removed, giving value/hide to bard since it lost steal
• Consider giving mercenary advanced disarm instead of master dual wield

Quote from: Brokkr on June 28, 2022, 11:25:42 AM
And?  Outdoorsman characters would not be loosing any skills they currently have.

Hunter and Outdoorsman would be equivalently powerful.  That will be the bar, not going to worry about some sort of one character per player make whole.

And sort of surprised no one is making suggestions like "Keep hunter and outdoorsman and tweak this and that so they are significantly different to merit still existing".

As long as outoorsman still gives the wilderness hide flag to classes that can already hide but get it for city environments, I think it'd be just fine.

Quote from: Patuk on June 28, 2022, 12:31:25 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on June 28, 2022, 11:25:42 AM
And?  Outdoorsman characters would not be loosing any skills they currently have.

Hunter and Outdoorsman would be equivalently powerful.  That will be the bar, not going to worry about some sort of one character per player make whole.

And sort of surprised no one is making suggestions like "Keep hunter and outdoorsman and tweak this and that so they are significantly different to merit still existing".

As long as outoorsman still gives the wilderness hide flag to classes that can already hide but get it for city environments, I think it'd be just fine.

Both Outdoorsman and Hunter give the "wilderness" stealth flags, so when Outdoorsman gets retired and Hunter gets boosted those flags shouldn't go away.

Need more zero karma city stealth subguild options besides the ultra-shitty house servant and thief.

Quote from: Miradus on June 28, 2022, 12:51:51 PM
Need more zero karma city stealth subguild options besides the ultra-shitty house servant and thief.

What skills would you give another city stealth subclass?

For reference, this is what is suggested:

House Servant	Hide	Advanced
	Pilot	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Listen	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Cooking	Master
	Floristry	Advanced
	City Stealth
Con Artist	Hide	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	City Stealth
Thief	Hide	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Peek	Advanced
	Steal	Advanced
	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	City Stealth
Rogue	Hide	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Search	Advanced
	Pick	Advanced
	City Stealth
Slipknife	Hide	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Sleight of Hand	Advanced
	Poisoning	Advanced
	Throw	Journeyman
	Backstab	Advanced
	City Stealth

Quote from: Dresan on June 28, 2022, 12:10:52 PM
Staff should probably consider:

• Giving thug city sneak and/or bounty hunter city sneak, as an alternative to getting sap on cutpurse
• Mountaineer sounds like the new grebber(would keep grebber name), would indeed give them master climb and add advanced forage
• Con artist should probably be removed, giving value/hide to bard since it lost steal
• Consider giving mercenary advanced disarm instead of master dual wield

• Cutpurse is gone, so you'll note you can't get sneak and sap together on a subclass, which was intentional.
• Bard has 6 skills, max is 7.  Bard didn't loose steal anyways?  But yes they are fairly close to one another.
• Mercenary has dual wield not for the combat power, but in conjunction with the ride skill to be able to ride hands full.

Quote from: Brokkr on June 28, 2022, 01:23:07 PM
which was intentional.

To be fair, I  do give you the benefit of the doubt most of the changes you make or propose, for better or worse, are intentional, and were not done in a drunken stupor or without some thought behind it.  :)

It doesn't change my suggestion, that said advance sap/sneak is not the hill i want to die on, neither is bard so I won't say more  :-X

On the topic of disarm, it would be nice to see one of the riding classes offer this, considering many other strong signature skills seem to be added to riding classes. Disarm is good in certain outdoor situation or missions that a mercenary or bounty hunter might encounter. Its just not as great as having ride/direction sense or stealth/backstab in my books so again just not the hill i personally want to die on.   :-\

Quote from: Brokkr on June 28, 2022, 11:25:42 AM
And?  Outdoorsman characters would not be loosing any skills they currently have.

Hunter and Outdoorsman would be equivalently powerful.  That will be the bar, not going to worry about some sort of one character per player make whole.

And sort of surprised no one is making suggestions like "Keep hunter and outdoorsman and tweak this and that so they are significantly different to merit still existing".

I'm ok with the idea of adding more differentiation to Hunter and Outdoorsman.  I'm less ok with Outdoorsman not getting ride if Hunter gets brought up to its 'level'.  Low/no ride is more or less unplayable for an outdoors character that isn't an elf.  That was a trade off considered in the esg/regular subg divide but would've lead to a different decision by at least some amount of people. 

Someone mentioned something in the Storms bread that got me to thinking.  Which is typically a slippery slope so I should do less of that but...

Origen subclasses.  Skills would be the skills that get boosted for starting in that place, maybe one or two others if that isn't a lot.

I don't usually do this, but since it is relevant to this, we have had conversations about looking at starting bonuses to possibly differentiate a bit more.  So keep in mind.

That is an idea...

Question, Just boosted? IE You have to have the skill.


I could see it being viable either way. but, I think you would need 3 subs for each starting spot. Tuluki hunter/melee sub, crafter sub and sneaky sub.

So, hunter gets bonus to tree hugging, wearing wood and sneering, while crafter sub gets the wooden...yeah, anyway, you know what I mean.

I am talking about the skills you get boosted for origin.  So like Allanak Origen gets slashing and dual wield, most obviously.  So basing a subclass around those skills that get those origin boosts, perhaps a couple of more skills depending on how many skills that is.

Just an idle thought.

Edited to add: used to call them starting location bonuses but now they are determined by your origen not start location.

Alright, Still sounds cool.

While it makes sense, origin boosts are a little meta. Certain skills are not hard to level up at low levels.

The most valuable current boosts are to weapon skills because of the offense/defense requirements to improve them.

If you suddenly said a certain location gave a boost to two-handed skill you would suddenly see people start from there more frequently for that same reason.

Instead what I would like to see is instead of orgin boosts, and class stat boosts...replace all that with background traits, allowing players pick one or two traits at creation to further customize their characters.

I think it was more what I was saying about people who origin in Red Storm and Luirs have a boost to direction sense.

EDIT:

Also, I don't know if the origin boosts are known except by helpfile? So it might be nice to include when making a character, particularly for new players, if it had a short paragraph blurb about the region you are choosing as an origin, and then asks you to confirm.

ALLANAK

A red-sandstone walled city state located in the Vrun Driath, most people who originate from the region are used to hardship and living under the brutal regime of Nobles and Templars that exact the Sorcerer King, Tektolnes', will. Law and order here are foreign concepts -- whatever the Templarate deems 'lawful' at the time is the absolute. Blah blah blah, flavor text.

-You start with a boost to slashing weapons
-You start with a boost to dual wield
-You start with a boost to evading drama

Is this the origin you would like for your character? (Y/N)

Just gonna toss this into the mix.

It'de be nice for City Hunt to be on a sub class.

Slipknife's j.man throw seems weak af. switch it with C. Hunt maybe?

My favorite subguild is outlaw. I don't see the update for it.

The wilderness stealth, direction sense and two crafting skills are nice when you the ride skill isn't important to your chosen race .

Quote from: Fredd on July 02, 2022, 02:27:18 PM
Just gonna toss this into the mix.

It'de be nice for City Hunt to be on a sub class.

Slipknife's j.man throw seems weak af. switch it with C. Hunt maybe?

Agreed -- I'd like to see them get advanced throw (honestly), or short of that, city hunt would be cool definitely.

I'd honestly prefer the choice for city OR wilderness hunt at chargen, rather than needing to pick the right subguild etc. Choosing the right subguild could give you both. It's just a bit esoteric right now.

Quote from: Veselka on July 02, 2022, 06:20:23 PM

Quote from: Fredd on July 02, 2022, 02:27:18 PM
Just gonna toss this into the mix.

It'de be nice for City Hunt to be on a sub class.

Slipknife's j.man throw seems weak af. switch it with C. Hunt maybe?

Agreed -- I'd like to see them get advanced throw (honestly), or short of that, city hunt would be cool definitely.

I'd honestly prefer the choice for city OR wilderness hunt at chargen, rather than needing to pick the right subguild etc. Choosing the right subguild could give you both. It's just a bit esoteric right now.

Slipknife isn't going away and see how it was all done ie no changing stuff that will impact existing characters.

We intentionally coded stuff like which environment hunt/sneak will work in into the classes and subclasses.  We can't even switch this around in a spec app, intentionally.

Quote from: Brokkr on July 02, 2022, 11:50:21 PM

Quote from: Veselka on July 02, 2022, 06:20:23 PM

Quote from: Fredd on July 02, 2022, 02:27:18 PM
Just gonna toss this into the mix.

It'de be nice for City Hunt to be on a sub class.

Slipknife's j.man throw seems weak af. switch it with C. Hunt maybe?

Agreed -- I'd like to see them get advanced throw (honestly), or short of that, city hunt would be cool definitely.

I'd honestly prefer the choice for city OR wilderness hunt at chargen, rather than needing to pick the right subguild etc. Choosing the right subguild could give you both. It's just a bit esoteric right now.

Slipknife isn't going away and see how it was all done ie no changing stuff that will impact existing characters.

We intentionally coded stuff like which environment hunt/sneak will work in into the classes and subclasses.  We can't even switch this around in a spec app, intentionally.

That makes sense. AFAIK no subclass has C.hunt. And it would be great to be able to get it there.

It looks like it would fit rogue but... That'de make rogue to OP, imho.

It would be neat to have a subguild that gives no skills and only gives flags. both hunts, both stealth, and both scans. For listen it would be awkward because they are separate skills now and not based on flags. If listen could be changed to have a city/wild flag ala hunt, stealth, scan, etc. then those could also be added. Currently the closest we have are in the touched subguilds of whira and drov.

Just a sidenote - Journeyman throw can still be pretty good and reliable. I've used it many times and I would miss it.

Quote from: Nao on July 03, 2022, 05:55:41 AM
Just a sidenote - Journeyman throw can still be pretty good and reliable. I've used it many times and I would miss it.

with a high enough agility roll, i guess it would be.

it wouldn't be the only sub with 7 skills (rogue) why not give it c hunt at adv or j.man and let it keep throw?

Not agility.

Quote from: Fredd on July 03, 2022, 12:44:29 AM
That makes sense. AFAIK no subclass has C.hunt. And it would be great to be able to get it there.

It looks like it would fit rogue but... That'de make rogue to OP, imho.

Bounty hunter has city and wild hunt.

Quote from: X-D on July 03, 2022, 10:53:44 AM
Not agility.

Oh yeah. Duh. it's early.

Quote from: Miradus on July 03, 2022, 10:56:10 AM

Quote from: Fredd on July 03, 2022, 12:44:29 AM
That makes sense. AFAIK no subclass has C.hunt. And it would be great to be able to get it there.

It looks like it would fit rogue but... That'de make rogue to OP, imho.

Bounty hunter has city and wild hunt.

Thank you for pointing that out. I missed it.

I think this is overall a really positive change because it'll free up options previously barred for new players. These are the lifeblood to any game, and making positive changes towards opening the doors and being inclusive really rocks. I'm especially excited to see updates to things like Master Chef and Roughrider, seflishly, since each would appeal to me and my character choices.

The only thing I might be remiss about would be the possible loss of customcrafter, because I had a adventurer/custom crafter concept that really rocked. I don't have time to disseminate each and every skill change or go through the whole thread, but overall,  I like it and wanted to say I like it a lot.

After thinking on it.

it would still be nice to have c. hunt on a stealy subclass. (bounty hunter not being this obv.)

Yeah I know I'm beating this inix pretty hard. but I don't think it's dead yet.

Grebber

Quote from: betweenford on July 04, 2022, 11:38:59 AM
Grebber

Has absolutely no stealing abilities.

I have gone through all the comments up until this point and they have been considered for incorporation.  Not everything has been incorporated, but a number of suggestions, or at least the reasoning behind them, has been.

Looking for suggestions on individual subclasses now.  Please keep in mind these suggestions should conform to the following:

• All zero karma subclasses need to keep all existing skills.
• Maximum of seven skills per subclass.  If you make a suggestion that would make it go over, you need to suggest what would be removed, keeping the above point in mind.
• There are certain Abilities that will remain limited on subclasses, like the ability to quit in the wilderness or regenerate moves at a higher rate.

I have tried to indicate changes since the last versions by making the text red.  At this point "Mastery" subclasses were pulled off the table, due to very mixed to negative feedback.  Custom Crafter is a question mark, it will probably remain.

In the past, 0 karma subclasses did not have branching, but many Extended Subclasses did have branching.  I have not included branching as I would like to firm up the skill list first.  Most (although not all, e.g. Linguist) subclasses will likely get branching.  Fortunately putting in branching will not create problems with characters already in the game.  If you want to suggest branching paths, feel free.

On subclass changes, I need to talk to other Staff, but I've come around to considering allowing it if it is a change to the remaining subclass if requested.  Meaning Marksman could only change to Archer, Outdoorsman only change to Hunter, etc.  Skills would both be added and removed as befits the new subclass, you would not get to retain skills that were only on the old Extended Subclass.  Thus it is a choice to be made with this in mind.

(https://i.imgur.com/jTswIbh.png)                                                      (https://i.imgur.com/8Vwv2Yd.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/uWT6KUu.jpg)



Apologies in advance for any errors, getting it into a format for players to view is a bit manual.
Imgur locations for folks that find it easier to view there:

https://imgur.com/a/rpn0Yox (https://imgur.com/a/rpn0Yox)
https://imgur.com/a/7bcsQJA (https://imgur.com/a/7bcsQJA)
https://imgur.com/a/p3oDh9i (https://imgur.com/a/p3oDh9i)

Can I make a suggestion for an elf-only bounty hunter that swaps ride for med+ move regen?

A random thought...but what if we removed karma from extended subs, but removed them from chargen?  What if our current 0-karma subclasses evolved into the extended subclasses?  Some sort of system where the extended subclass -was- the 'branch' of the current 0 karma ones?

I'll go over the individual classes later on today, but reading over your last post (Brokkr) made me think of the whole branching concept, plus the karma-requirement for extended subs rubbing people the wrong way, plus the power 'out of the gate' of some of the subclasses.  Or is that all too much codework/restructuring in the first place?

At first glance, without indepth observations:

Slipknife with blowgun use.  Could be overpowered. 
Poisoner with blowgun use.  Could be overpowered.

I still don't like the skillset that Crafter has.   I think it could do a bit better to be more interesting for players.
Master Potter - I'm still on the fence whether it should exist at all or not.

Con Artist with Peek - yay
Swordsman with disarm and two handed - very nice.
Grebber with Sling Use - nice
Archer getting Crossbow Use at master - nice
Fletchery to Weapon Crafter - Yay
Leatherworking to Tailor - Yay
Bard getting low level steal - Yay

House Servant's Pilot skill should be Master, in my opinion.  Same with Caravan Guide.    I don't think it should be limited to advanced.  Having it at master means you won't ever make a mistake, where you make a mistake pretty often at journeyman/advanced.


Everything seems good.  9/10.

No way to do, nor would we really want to, race specific subclasses.

Quote from: mansa on July 06, 2022, 04:20:08 PM
At first glance, without indepth observations:

Slipknife with blowgun use.  Could be overpowered. 
Poisoner with blowgun use.  Could be overpowered.

Slipknife already gets throw and backstab to deliver poisons with, this is just another method.
Poisoner doesn't get hide.

Quote from: mansa on July 06, 2022, 04:20:08 PM
I still don't like the skillset that Crafter has.   I think it could do a bit better to be more interesting for players.
Master Potter - I'm still on the fence whether it should exist at all or not.

Please note the limitations.  Crafter already has 7 skills.  It is what it is.
To be great with clayworking you pretty much need dyeing, and Crafter already has 7 skills.

Quote from: mansa on July 06, 2022, 04:20:08 PM
House Servant's Pilot skill should be Master, in my opinion.  Same with Caravan Guide.    I don't think it should be limited to advanced.  Having it at master means you won't ever make a mistake, where you make a mistake pretty often at journeyman/advanced.

That is one of the mistakes I warned might exist.  On my docs I had changed House Servant pilot to master, but forgot to copy it over.  Ditto Caravan Guide.

The grebber sling-use thing feels kinda outta nowhere, neat as it might be. choosing that over some other grebbing-oriented skill like cooking or ljacking or like... bandage or something it just feels odd.

Quote from: betweenford on July 06, 2022, 04:38:38 PM
The grebber sling-use thing feels kinda outta nowhere, neat as it might be. choosing that over some other grebbing-oriented skill like cooking or ljacking or like... bandage or something it just feels odd.

It was asked that sling use be included somewhere.  This was the best fit.

Grebbers don't need fletchery to make sling stones, as if they forage a lot, they will no doubt find lots of naturally occuring sling stones, thus the synergy.  Cooking, lumberjacking and bandage would seem to make much less sense than someone figured out a simple use for all these stones they were grebbing anyways?

Thief looks solid. You can slap that onto any main class, and be able to rely on it's abilities in the city to steal from npc's, and then pc's at the top end of your abilities.

Poisoner looks awesome. But my note: No one is going to let someone with jman skinning, skin anything they want the poison from. With most things having advanced skills, why not push it up to adv.  So it's reliable?

Quote from: Brokkr on July 06, 2022, 04:28:51 PM

Quote from: mansa on July 06, 2022, 04:20:08 PM
I still don't like the skillset that Crafter has.   I think it could do a bit better to be more interesting for players.
Master Potter - I'm still on the fence whether it should exist at all or not.

Please note the limitations.  Crafter already has 7 skills.  It is what it is.
To be great with clayworking you pretty much need dyeing, and Crafter already has 7 skills.

For reference:

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Crafter	Forage	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Basketweaving	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Club Making	Master
	Stonecrafting	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
Master Potter	Forage	Master
	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Dyeing	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
	Pain Tolerance Perk
Jeweler	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Feather Working	Advanced
	Jewelrymaking	Master
	Stonecrafting	Advanced
	Toolmaking	Advanced

I have changed my mind.   Master Crafter, Crafter, and Master Potter could all be combined into this:

Master Potter	Forage	Master
	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Dyeing	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
	Stonecrafting	Advanced

"Crafter" and "Master Crafter" doesn't seem to fit anywhere as a theme.  It just is a random combination of limited crafting skills.  It used to be picked because it was one of the few that got Toolmaking, but that has now changed.
Basketmaking & Clubmaking are, in my opinion, some of the worst crafting skills you can possibly get, because they don't have high-end expensive crafts that are worth anything to sell to people.   I suggest that since it doesn't make sense as a thematic choice, and shouldn't be offered at all.  It will be one more confusing option for new players to choice from.

I suggest to strike crafter out, and give Stonecrafting at advanced to Master Potters. 

Quote from: Fredd on July 06, 2022, 04:47:19 PM
Thief looks solid. You can slap that onto any main class, and be able to rely on it's abilities in the city to steal from npc's, and then pc's at the top end of your abilities.

Poisoner looks awesome. But my note: No one is going to let someone with jman skinning, skin anything they want the poison from. With most things having advanced skills, why not push it up to adv.  So it's reliable?

I think one of the upcoming changes to poison is that you can brew it, so that would be the primary source of poisons.  It would be a reduction of the need to get it from certain beasts only.

I would like to know why potters get pain tolerance.

Quote from: Fredd on July 06, 2022, 04:51:07 PM
I would like to know why potters get pain tolerance.

THE KILN IS HOT

...or something idk

Quote from: mansa on July 06, 2022, 04:50:44 PM

Quote from: Fredd on July 06, 2022, 04:47:19 PM
Thief looks solid. You can slap that onto any main class, and be able to rely on it's abilities in the city to steal from npc's, and then pc's at the top end of your abilities.

Poisoner looks awesome. But my note: No one is going to let someone with jman skinning, skin anything they want the poison from. With most things having advanced skills, why not push it up to adv.  So it's reliable?

I think one of the upcoming changes to poison is that you can brew it, so that would be the primary source of poisons.  It would be a reduction of the need to get it from certain beasts only.

Valid. but we may start with a base poison, and make it stronger from there. If that is the case, then skinning will still be very important.

Quote from: Fredd on July 06, 2022, 04:47:19 PM
Poisoner looks awesome. But my note: No one is going to let someone with jman skinning, skin anything they want the poison from. With most things having advanced skills, why not push it up to adv.  So it's reliable?

You could be out there killing the thing yourself, not skinning someone else's kill?  And it plays into knowing a little about anatomy, to know where the poison is from to do [redacted all the stuff that might change with poisons].

Quote from: betweenford on July 06, 2022, 04:53:06 PM

Quote from: Fredd on July 06, 2022, 04:51:07 PM
I would like to know why potters get pain tolerance.

THE KILN IS HOT

...or something idk

Pretty much the reasoning someone on Staff gave for adding it.

After discussion in Discord, replaced Forage (which was just a handful of points above the lowest any guild gets it at anyways) with woodworking at Advanced.

Quote from: Brokkr on July 06, 2022, 05:12:21 PM
After discussion in Discord, replaced Forage (which was just a handful of points above the lowest any guild gets it at anyways) with woodworking at Advanced.

We were talking about the Crafter subclass specifically.

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Crafter	Woodworking	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Basketweaving	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Club Making	Master
	Stonecrafting	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
Master Potter	Forage	Master
	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Dyeing	Master
	Clayworking	Master
	Toolmaking	Master
	Pain Tolerance Perk
Jeweler	Haggle	Advanced
	Value	Advanced
	Feather Working	Advanced
	Jewelrymaking	Master
	Stonecrafting	Advanced
	Toolmaking	Advanced

For potter:
Remove toolmaking

Add: Stonecrafting

Reasoning: A lot of vases, bowls, cups, ect. are made with stonecrafting.

Reasoning 2: Makes this an absolute ACE for thiefy types to take as a sub.



edit: Jeweler needs Dying, and has 1 slot open.

Quote from: Brokkr on July 06, 2022, 03:48:08 PM

• All zero karma subclasses need to keep all existing skills.

Toolmaking is an existing Master Potter skill.

The reason this bullet point is here is because if it gets removing as a skill from the subclass, existing characters will have it drop off their skill list.  And, as we have said before, there is no versioning for classes or subclasses, which would be necessary to fix this.  While the bullet point says zero karma subclasses, it is also relevant to Master Potter because of this limitation.

Quote from: Brokkr on July 06, 2022, 05:24:29 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on July 06, 2022, 03:48:08 PM

• All zero karma subclasses need to keep all existing skills.

Toolmaking is an existing Master Potter skill.

The reason this bullet point is here is because if it gets removing as a skill from the subclass, existing characters will have it drop off their skill list.  And, as we have said before, there is no versioning for classes or subclasses, which would be necessary to fix this.  While the bullet point says zero karma subclasses, it is also relevant to Master Potter because of this limitation.

i was shafted by toolmaking!

Fair enough :)

I like this iteration. Seems solid as is, and any minor quibbles were already discussed but aren't hills I'd care to plant a flag on.

Does "Master Trader" also get "master" level Pilot skill, similar to House Servant and Caravan Guide?

My previous post was written before I understood the current proposal, so while it's a cool idea, it's also completely unnecessary. xD

I like this iteration.  It will improve over what we have.  I'm not certain it totally encompasses 'my vision', but I believe it will serve the majority of the playerbase in their needs and wants, which means I can thumbs up it.  Maybe we can set up a time for review in the future, to see how everyone thinks it's impacting the game as a whole.

I like the sling use on grebber. It could be added to wastelander, too - they might want to snack on some small and skittish game every once in a while instead of being vegetarians.

Why not just keep Marksman and either add Archer as another option or phase it out? Marksman is fine as it is, and Featherworking that has to be kept and the limit of 7 skills make Archer a bit awkward.

Sling use seems, out of place to me for Grebber. Yeah they can forage sling stones? So can everyone else.
Personally, I think Grebber should get Jman skin..to clean up and profit from all the waste that so many leave behind.

Quote from: ShaiHulud on July 08, 2022, 11:09:19 PM
Personally, I think Grebber should get Jman skin..to clean up and profit from all the waste that so many leave behind.

That fits well with its theme and would make it an even better complement to Fighter.

QuoteThat fits well with its theme and would make it an even better complement to Fighter.

Should probably avoid a subclass design that is based around meshing them directly interlocking with classes.  That's what literally leads to lack of variety and choices in the first place.  Every decision regarding creation has gains and sacrifices, unless you enter this design loop where each class has these 3 viable subclasses; everything else is just overlap.

I can have everything I need if it just has X....is a good reason to not include X.

The subclasses look pretty interesting.

A few are a bit more questionable than others. For example, I don't know if I would risk a good character concept using subclass level theft levels skills on PCs but other people's millage may vary. :-\ I am  also not sure if poisoner is that good, blowgun without stealth skills is difficult to say the least, not to mention skinning is currently a very important component of getting powerful poisons but in the future that may change a bit. Additonally, I was fairly disappointed with msicreant level brew as well, and poisner's skill level  is probably lower.  Again though people's millage might vary.

One thing I would like to see is the name physician be changed to something more in line with the low tech world theme( maybe just use healer). The name physician seems like a very modern word, and feels out of place for every day commoners, medic as a word seems a bit better but still a bit out of place in low tech world.

The other thing is that physician should have some level of direction sense, for the same reason that chef has direction sense. This is a bit of a derail so bare with me but I really wish foraging for medical herbs and ingredients to be used with brew skill would become a specialized abilitiy similar to foraging for food in the wilderness. Its been a while since my character could forage for food but I remember there being some things you can only find with forage food in the wilderness that should probably be classified as a herb, or at the very least not as a food.

Anyways since a physician would need to forage for medical herbs outside the gates, they should also have some ability deal the weather turning bad on them before they can get home, journeyman direction sense is good enough for that. 

Poisoner looks good the way it is.
NOT getting stealth makes it the far more useful sub.

Quote from: X-D on July 09, 2022, 04:50:42 PM
Poisoner looks good the way it is.
NOT getting stealth makes it the far more useful sub.

Its just the changes planned for poison makes finding poison ingredients (forage/skining, +wilderness skills),  crafter stronger poison(brew), applying it(poisoning) and excecution(stealth, blowgun,food,throw,archery,etc) all their own areas of strength. In the future all these will also be possible points of failure and the poisoner seems to be trying to do a little of everything without really being that effective at accomplishing much.

I would probably prefer it to have narrowed down the scope and made the subclass better at a select fewer areas. Since slipknife can already apply poison and be great at execution, it would have been nice to have a subguild that focuses on finding and making it more so than anything else.

My dream  poisoner subguild(which focuses on getting and making poison):

• direction sense- journeyman
• forage-advanced
• brew- master
• poisoning - advanced
• skinning-advanced
• can stealth in both city/wilderness [Just flags, not skills]  (I will this admit this might be a bit strong, but regardless if its searching or attempting to execute the poison with whatever other skills you have, the poisoner can benefit from stealth flags but not skills, thus it wouldn't have any greater level of stealth higher than their class offers).

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on July 09, 2022, 10:35:11 AM

Quote from: ShaiHulud on July 08, 2022, 11:09:19 PM
Personally, I think Grebber should get Jman skin..to clean up and profit from all the waste that so many leave behind.

That fits well with its theme and would make it an even better complement to Fighter.

Just to clarify, there is a combination of skills I am trying to avoid putting on a single subclass.  This version of subclasses expands the number that have 3/4 of those skills, but none should have all of:

climb
skinning
ride
direction sense

Whenever I look at the non-Wilderness classes and thing about how I would want to use them in the Wilderness, those are the four skills I would want.  Which is a good point for no subclass needing to get them all.  Thus making it a choice which combination you want, as well as making sure no subclass is such a perfect fit for everything that would be wanted to switch to the wilderness.

Quote from: Brokkr on July 09, 2022, 06:20:17 PM
Thus making it a choice which combination you want, as well as making sure no subclass is such a perfect fit for everything that would be wanted to switch to the wilderness.

All the characters I had that referred to themselves as grebber could not afford to ride out on a mount. The jobs they did were mining, searching for food at the farms, clay and salting back in the day. Same up north with different list of stuff. They all walk out of the city on foot or stayed in alleys, and walk back to a tavern before the end of the day, they all kept to themselves and try not to stand out because no one with good skills would need to greb.

Hunters hunt, grebbers do not, they just skin whatever they find, like dead scrab at the gates, rats or chalton.  I would remove hunt and ride from grebber, there are many more subguilds offering those two skills that make better sense, remove sling_use and give it to some other sub-guild too, maybe to outlaw instead of hunt since it will help them be more self-sufficient.  Grebbers would then get  journeyman skin, and bonuses to cutting wood and break plants.  I would consider given them some duo stealth skills even if its only sneak,as staying out of sight is key to finding good stuff on the ground regardless of whether you are in the city or wilderness and getting back to a tavern without someone robbing your dusty unskilled, unaffiliated ass.


One should keep in mind that half of the non-karma races do not benefit from ride skill. It is an important wilderness skill, and its nice to see a lot of subguilds with it,  but its not useful for everyone so some more variety in wilderness sub-guilds is good. 

Quote from: Brokkr on July 09, 2022, 06:20:17 PM

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on July 09, 2022, 10:35:11 AM

Quote from: ShaiHulud on July 08, 2022, 11:09:19 PM
Personally, I think Grebber should get Jman skin..to clean up and profit from all the waste that so many leave behind.

That fits well with its theme and would make it an even better complement to Fighter.

Just to clarify, there is a combination of skills I am trying to avoid putting on a single subclass.  This version of subclasses expands the number that have 3/4 of those skills, but none should have all of:

climb
skinning
ride
direction sense

Whenever I look at the non-Wilderness classes and thing about how I would want to use them in the Wilderness, those are the four skills I would want.  Which is a good point for no subclass needing to get them all.  Thus making it a choice which combination you want, as well as making sure no subclass is such a perfect fit for everything that would be wanted to switch to the wilderness.

Though it pains me, I have to agree with this. Being able to slap all those skills on a class (especially city/criminal) that wouldn't otherwise get them seems a bit too min-max "don't need nobody now."

Pick and choose what's most important to your concept and find somebody else for the rest.

Clarification: I mean getting those skills to a high (aka advanced+) level, from a subclass.  I still think all classes should be able to branch climb, and maybe skin, like you do ride & pilot, to a very low cap.

Quote from: Brokkr on July 09, 2022, 06:20:17 PM

Just to clarify, there is a combination of skills I am trying to avoid putting on a single subclass.  This version of subclasses expands the number that have 3/4 of those skills, but none should have all of:

climb
skinning
ride
direction sense

[/quote]

I see the point, mechanically, but I still want to ask:  What about a single subguild for solo play?

Hermit
outdoor quit
outdoor food forage
climb, dsense, skin and ride at APPRENTICE

Quote from: Halcyon on July 10, 2022, 11:47:21 AM
What about a single subguild for solo play?

Hermit
outdoor quit
outdoor food forage
climb, dsense, skin and ride at APPRENTICE

If you were going to solo play, why wouldn't you pick the classes designed for solo wilderness play, and then pick a subclass that makes them more unique to your character?

Scout	Wilderness Quit
	Wilderness Forage Food
	Climb
	Direction Sense
	Skinning
	Ride
Stalker	Wilderness Quit
	Wilderness Forage Food
	Climb
	Direction Sense
	Skinning
	Ride
Adventurer	Wilderness Quit
	Wilderness Forage Food
	Climb
	Direction Sense
	Skinning
	Ride

Quote from: Halcyon on July 10, 2022, 11:47:21 AM

Quote from: Brokkr on July 09, 2022, 06:20:17 PM

Just to clarify, there is a combination of skills I am trying to avoid putting on a single subclass.  This version of subclasses expands the number that have 3/4 of those skills, but none should have all of:

climb
skinning
ride
direction sense

I see the point, mechanically, but I still want to ask:  What about a single subguild for solo play?

Hermit
outdoor quit
outdoor food forage
climb, dsense, skin and ride at APPRENTICE
[/quote]

I am not sure you've thought that through if you want ride at apprentice.

The subguilds I want to see:

Survivalist(for players that want to survive outside the walls but have no plans to travel to another far off town/city or far into wastes)

• Wilderness Quit
• Wilderness Forage Food
• Direction Sense-advanced
• Skinning-advanced
• Forage-advanced
• Wilderness sneak-advanced
• Wilderness Hide-advanced

Poison Maker (for players who want to explore the new poison system, be merchants of poison, but not play the part of assassin)

• Direction Sense-advanced
• Skinning-advanced
• Forage-advanced
• Brew- master
• Poisoning- master

These are the proposed subclasses that I have categories as "Exploration subclasses", with the common skills being "direction sense", "ride", and some of the wilderness perks.

Subclass Name:	Skill:	Proficiency:
Hunter	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Hunt	Advanced
	Scan	Advanced
	Archery	Advanced
	Skinning	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Hunt
Nomad	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Skinning	Journeyman
	Haggle	Advanced
	Speakmaking	Advanced
	Bendune	Master
	Tribal Accent	Master
	Wilderness Quit
	Hitch 2 Mounts
Wastelander	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Scan	Master
	Search	Advanced
	Bendune	Master
	Tribal Accent	Master
	Forage Food in Wilderness
	Wilderness Quit
Mercenary	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Watch	Advanced
	Dual Wield	Master
	Armor Repair	Master
	Knife Making	Advanced
	Alcohol Perk
Grebber	Ride	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Hunt	Advanced
	Search	Advanced
	Forage	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Sling Use	Advanced
	Forage Food in City
	Forage Food in Wilderness
	Wilderness Hunt
	Wilderness Stealth
Outlaw	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Hunt	Advanced
	Knife Making	Advanced
	Speakmaking	Advanced
	Armor Repair	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Hunt
Bandit	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Charge	Advanced
	Threaten	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Hide	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Quit
Mountaineer	Ride	Advanced
	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Climb	Advanced
	Sneak	Advanced
	Hide	Advanced
	Wilderness Stealth
	Wilderness Quit
	Forage food in Wilderness
Master Chef	Direction Sense	Advanced
	Skinning	Advanced
	Forage	Advanced
	Haggle	Advanced
	Cooking	Master
	Forage Food in Wilderness Perk
	Forage Food in City Perk
	Alcohol Tolerance Perk

Personally, I think there may be too many in this category already.

Quote from: mansa on July 10, 2022, 05:21:43 PM
Personally, I think there may be too many in this category already.

Out to all the wilderness classes you listed, the winner for best wilderness class in my books is master chef, and physician would be a close second if it had direction sense.

Honorable mentioned to mountaineer because it does look pretty good. I based survivalist idea off of it, just without ride and climb.

Quote from: Dresan on July 10, 2022, 05:53:06 PM

Quote from: mansa on July 10, 2022, 05:21:43 PM
Personally, I think there may be too many in this category already.

Out to all the wilderness classes you listed, the winner for best wilderness class in my books is master chef, and physician would be a close second if it had direction sense.

Honorable mentioned to mountaineer because it does look pretty good. I based survivalist idea off of it, just without ride and climb.

You know, you're right about master chef fitting into my 'exploration' category.  I had master cheft in my 'crafting' category simply because it has "can custom craft" as a perk currently.

physician's advanced brew is... limited compared to advanced brew on the main guilds. If physician is getting stuck with advanced instead of master, please bump it a little to match.

I like the subguilds being re-thought and balanced, but in a game where you can play raider/sorc I really hope these mundane subguilds remain powerful and interesting. It's not like the extended subguilds are overpowered now. It's just that the 0 karma ones are crap compared. So lift the 0 karma subguilds up, don't bring the extended subguilds down.

cast 'mon un nilaz morz inrof' subclass.thread

Necro'ing this thread, as I have gotten back to this.

To recap last episode:

• Make all mundane subclasses 0 Karma.
• In cases of duplicate or near duplicate subclasses, 0 karma subclass survives.
• Surviving subclasses have all the skills that dead extended subclass had.
• Dead extended subclasses don't get deleted, just made inactive in character generation.
• Skills new to surviving 0 karma subclasses typically made branchable, so that players can branch with a failure, rather than needing stuff to add a skill.

What does this look like, in terms of which subclasses would remain?  Like this!

(https://i.imgur.com/F7UrRq9.jpg)

What skills would mundane subclasses get, and to what levels?  Whelp...


(https://i.imgur.com/ht67qLL.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/vKxGSHk.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/Ff3ArHB.jpg)



(https://i.imgur.com/827rJnz.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/M2mspKG.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/5IH3b7s.jpg)



(https://i.imgur.com/PwlUqEb.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/Q5XEaI7.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/68RqwYs.jpg)



(https://i.imgur.com/hCJIr1a.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/bn8A5CW.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/4aRwXnl.jpg)


In addition to what you can see here, intending to try to get the minimum starting level for most subclass skills to a level where they would be above, and thus provide benefit to, any class.  One way would be to look at the highest starting skill level any guild gets a skill at, and add a handful of points and start there.  A different way, which is how I have it set up in my spreadsheets now, would be to start all skills at Journeyman or higher skill level.  This would be in general give starting levels equal to or higher than the first method.

Yes, please. This can't come soon enough imo

I do not enjoy the next statement I'm going to say....Excellent Job Brokkr  >:(

Feedback:

Why outdoorsman vs hunter?  I feel they are too similar in style.  The previous version had hunter replace outdoorsman.  The questionable skill was 'hide'.
Archer vs Marksman -> Previously, Archer was set to replace Marksman, but it wouldn't allow a subclass to get sling-use or blowguns.  This change to bring it back also brings back those two skills to a subclass.

Berserker doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Bruiser doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Lancer doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Rogue doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Marksman doesn't branch any of their skills? (they currently do)

If you make a change and an existing character has a legacy sub that is more limited than its replacement, will they be allowed to have the replacement skillset on that existing character? If so, can they have it, with whatever skills they've already improved on, remaining improved?

bard gets scan,which scan flags does bard get?

please make the crafting based branches be very low. having to increase a skill to 10 below the cap at master is very saddening

thief gets scan, which scan flags does thief get?

hunter looks way overtuned. hopefully that master skinning is scout's cap rather than stalker

edit:
big fan of advanced bash on pit fighter, previously only source of that was from elkrosian touched. i think giving pit fighter low jman parry would be nice to help with the playability of guild adventurer

house servant gets scan, which scan flags does it get?

HOLY CRAP MASTER SAP ON A SUBGUILD FROM BOUNTY HUNTER? i am going to abuse this

cavilish on caravan guide is so nice. would be cool to give it wild scan/hunt flags and maybe hide. useless on their own but very nice when supporting various other main guilds also good to include cavilish more places

con artists gets scan, which scan flags? (it's starting to feel like scan flags and stealth flags are one in the same and we've never been told, but that doesn't track with the info on the drov touched subguild which gives stealth flags but not scan flags)

master ride on nomad? i'm going to abuse this

wastelander scan, which one?

WOW you're really just handing out master ride and wilderness quit. full guild mages are going to love this

stalker mv regen on mountaineer??? with wild quit AND food forage? this subguild is bonkers.

outlaw looks like a pretty bad/funny guild but i think with specific combinations it can work

i'm glad poisoner sub exists, previously only slipknife and drovtouched got it. also including brew means it'll be nice on artisan. worried people might be able to sniff artisan physician vs artisan poisoner based on the bandage skills even if they try to keep the poison abilities secret

advanced blowgun on a subguild with advanced poisoning (with a cap high enough to identify poisons, i hope)? slipknife looks really good.

grebber looks mostly overshined by mountaineer but i'm sure people will like it

some of the newer wilderness subs also outshine outdoorsman by a lot. its main "flaw" was that it didn't have ride.

starting with max drawing on custom crafter is very funny. makes a pathetic and mostly vestigial subguild even more meme worthy

master trader is cute, probably overshined by other things. i think stalker/master trader could be cute

rouge gets scan but which flags?

marksman and archer are too similar, pls merge

seeing the higher caps on various skills it would be neat to see touched subguilds also get higher skillcaps on certain skills which require higher levels to feel useful (or even usable)
rukkian jman -> adv climb
whiran jman -> adv both listens (i think leaving scan at jman is fine because it's almost always put on a main guild which has scan anyway)

Would consider giving Guard scan and/or listen.  A bodyguard that can't detect threats coming and/or listen to conversations while they're standing sentinel feels like it's missing something.

Quote from: mansa on May 01, 2023, 09:03:18 PM
Feedback:

Why outdoorsman vs hunter?  I feel they are too similar in style.  The previous version had hunter replace outdoorsman.  The questionable skill was 'hide'.
Archer vs Marksman -> Previously, Archer was set to replace Marksman, but it wouldn't allow a subclass to get sling-use or blowguns.  This change to bring it back also brings back those two skills to a subclass.

Berserker doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Bruiser doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Lancer doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Rogue doesn't branch any of their skills?  (they currently do)
Marksman doesn't branch any of their skills? (they currently do)

Hunter v Outdoorsman - Elves.  Hunter is oriented towards hunters that want ride.  Outdoorsman towards folks that want sneak and/or wilderness quit.
Archer v Marksman - It was easier to leave it as is with Marksman having all the ranged skills than either squishing it all into Archer or spreading it out.
Berserker - Marksman branching - My oversight, branching would remain as is. Was more focused on the 0K new branching. Former extended subclass branching would be the same as it is now.

Quote from: LetaSpringle on May 01, 2023, 09:27:06 PM
If you make a change and an existing character has a legacy sub that is more limited than its replacement, will they be allowed to have the replacement skillset on that existing character? If so, can they have it, with whatever skills they've already improved on, remaining improved?

Part of the trickiness in all this is I tried to incorporate feedback from last round to make it so if you have a subclass that is going away, lets say Minstrel, if you want Staff can set your subclass to Bard and it should work without hiccups.

Quote from: Lotion on May 01, 2023, 09:27:55 PM
bard gets scan,which scan flags does bard get?

Neither.  There is no such thing as a scan ability that differentiates its use in different environments.

Quote from: Lotion on May 01, 2023, 09:27:55 PM
please make the crafting based branches be very low. having to increase a skill to 10 below the cap at master is very saddening

If they start the crafting skill above what even an Artisan starts it at, it isn't that many fails to branch really.

Quote from: Lotion on May 01, 2023, 09:27:55 PM
cavilish on caravan guide is so nice. would be cool to give it wild scan/hunt flags and maybe hide. useless on their own but very nice when supporting various other main guilds also good to include cavilish more places

Kind of hard for me to evaluate feedback like this unless you mention what you are comparing it to.  Lots of subclasses would benefit from more skills.  What is lacking here, or what is it too close to, or how did you evaluate that those skills would be needed?  I'm sort of lost on how to take some of the feedback that seems stream of conciousness like this.

Quote from: Lotion on May 01, 2023, 09:27:55 PM
seeing the higher caps on various skills it would be neat to see touched subguilds also get higher skillcaps on certain skills which require higher levels to feel useful (or even usable)

While I understand some people choose Touched just for the skills and abilities, they do also have the spells (even if you never use them for that).  So on the whole they seem about right.

I'll try to come back and re-read the rest of your comments tomorrow.  Not tracking on them all very well right now.

In my opinion, everything seems okay with the exception of these:

Physician should get clayworking (to make the different types of clay vials)
Jeweler should get higher forage, to find the diamonds in the rough.

(Mostly because those two classes are the only classes that feel like they are lacking something)

I think linguist should get either Bendune and Cavilish, or should be reframed into a new subguild that has allundean and mirukkim along with some other skills.  It doesn't seem fair that Caravan guide gets two (arguably more useful) languages + great skills whereas Linguist gets nothing.

Quote from: Brokkr on May 01, 2023, 11:09:18 PM
Hunter v Outdoorsman - Elves.  Hunter is oriented towards hunters that want ride.  Outdoorsman towards folks that want sneak and/or wilderness quit.

Outdoorsman gets wilderness quit!? I had no idea.


*edit* Didn't read back to Brokkr's original post, so didn't know what was going on. Love this idea and the subs look great!

Quote from: LetaSpringle on May 01, 2023, 09:27:06 PM
If you make a change and an existing character has a legacy sub that is more limited than its replacement, will they be allowed to have the replacement skillset on that existing character? If so, can they have it, with whatever skills they've already improved on, remaining improved?

TBD, it depends on how this settles out and what the end result is going to look like before we can decide that.

Is it possible to share the excel version of Brokkr's post  If this goes ahead I'll want to modify/improve my class picking tool.

(As an aside I wish we published caps with numbers, or more specificity to avoid all this "high advanced/low advanced speculating)

My Thoughts:

Get rid of Wastelander, It is redundant with Nomad, Grebber. Outdoorman, and Mountaineer

Quote from: mansa on May 01, 2023, 11:23:54 PM
Physician should get clayworking (to make the different types of clay vials)
Jeweler should get higher forage, to find the diamonds in the rough.

Both ideas incorporated.

Quote from: wizturbo on May 02, 2023, 03:06:32 AM
I think linguist should get either Bendune and Cavilish, or should be reframed into a new subguild that has allundean and mirukkim along with some other skills.  It doesn't seem fair that Caravan guide gets two (arguably more useful) languages + great skills whereas Linguist gets nothing.

Hmmm, true. I'll have to touch base and see what other Staff think.  We might have some room to make it more desireable in terms of accents, as well.

Quote from: Krath on May 02, 2023, 01:52:10 PM
My Thoughts:

Get rid of Wastelander, It is redundant with Nomad, Grebber. Outdoorman, and Mountaineer

I get why you say that.  It is the only one that has ride, outdoor quit, scan and bendune.  So means as a compliment to Nomad for nomadic folks, depending on which skillset is important.  Part of the issue is probably folks seem to want ride/direction sense on most outdoor type subclasses, so stuff does start to look a bit the same from the outset.

Something we have been discussing is slightly changing how stats are handled.  Part of this would be some small changes to the stats that Classes get, so that each class got two stat bumps, each to a different stat.  Currently most Classes are like this, but some give a double bump to a single stat, which is offset with a negative to another stat, so that the total net stat bump is the same across all the normal Classes.  This would change to something along potentially with some of the combinations, probably to something like:

(https://i.imgur.com/JIb1hB8.jpg)

We are discussing then combining this with a stat bump that each mundane subclass would give, something that might look like:

(https://i.imgur.com/vtAmvic.jpg)

So folks would get two bumps from their guild, and one bump from their mundane subclass.

I approve of mundane subs giving stat bumps unless they are full witches. Looking good, Brokkr.

Also don't get rid of Wastelander. It gives master scan which is amazing for mundane warriors and even any city based class.

Give mercenary some scout/infiltrator level shield use.

Quote from: roughneck on May 03, 2023, 05:54:34 AM
Give mercenary some scout/infiltrator level shield use.

Guard and Reaver already have that.  Would not give Mercenary both dual wield and shield use at those levels, so it seems really personal playstyle preference rather than anything thematic to Mercenary?

How your spreadsheet isn't calling you out on "Alcohal" I'll never know, but... in relation to Mercenary:

I don't see what is so specific about a mercenary that they CAN'T have shield use. A mercenary is a for-hire soldier, and I don't see how advanced ride, dual wield, and knife crafting is Mercenary, but "a shield to protect themselves" isn't.

I agree that two other subclasses get shield use and it shouldn't be given across the board, but it feels like a combat oriented subclass without a defensive option.

Not looking at it in terms of defensive option, and there are combat subclasses that have no defensive skill.

Looking at it in terms of there being three combat styles, and a subguild only getting 1 enhanced combat style.  Remember all guilds get the combat styles, to some degree, so it isn't like a character will simply not have shield use.

Ok just saw this post. Excellent! This will bring a huge balance to the mundane side of the force.

I like the stat boosts from subguild, and I like how you put strength exclusively on the combat focused subguilds.

My only recommendation would be to consider putting the wisdom bonus from crafting subguilds as +2 instead of +1, given the relatively lesser value wisdom has compared to Str/Agi/End.  Could always change this later if wisdom gets some more applications.

Quote from: Brokkr on May 02, 2023, 02:39:33 PM

Quote from: mansa on May 01, 2023, 11:23:54 PM
Physician should get clayworking (to make the different types of clay vials)
Jeweler should get higher forage, to find the diamonds in the rough.

Both ideas incorporated.

For my own spreadsheet of this, what proficiencies are you thinking of clayworking / forage.
Would you give custom crafting of clayworking to Physicians?

Quote from: Brokkr on May 02, 2023, 03:02:53 PM
Something we have been discussing is slightly changing how stats are handled.  Part of this would be some small changes to the stats that Classes get, so that each class got two stat bumps, each to a different stat.  Currently most Classes are like this, but some give a double bump to a single stat, which is offset with a negative to another stat, so that the total net stat bump is the same across all the normal Classes.  This would change to something along potentially with some of the combinations, probably to something like:

(https://i.imgur.com/JIb1hB8.jpg)

We are discussing then combining this with a stat bump that each mundane subclass would give, something that might look like:

(https://i.imgur.com/vtAmvic.jpg)

So folks would get two bumps from their guild, and one bump from their mundane subclass.

I've separated out the subclasses into my own categories:

Weapon Skills	Secondary Combat Skills	Exploration	Thievery	Perception & Languages	Crafting
Berserker	Archer	Bandit	Con Artist	Bard	Armormaker
Bruiser	Bounty Hunter	Grebber	Poisoner	Caravan Guide	Crafter
Lancer	Guard	Hunter	Rogue	House Servant	Custom Crafter
Pit Fighter	Marksman	Master Chef	Slipknife	Linguist	Forester
Reaver	Thug	Mercenary	Thief	Master Trader	Jeweler
Swordsman		Mountaineer			Physician
		Nomad			Tailor
		Outdoorsman			Weaponcrafter
		Outlaw
		Wastelander

I think the subclasses that get weapon skills or the SAP skill should have + to strength -> which would be:
Berserker, Bruiser, Lancer, Pit Fighter, Reaver, Swordsman, Bounty Hunter, and Thug.

I think the Crafting subclasses PLUS the subclasses in Perception & Languages should get + to wisdom -> which would be:
Bard, Caravan Guide, House Servant, Linguist, Master Trader, Armormaker, Crafter, Custom Crafter, Forester, Jeweler, Physician, Tailor, Weaponcrafter

I think the Exploration subclasses should have + to endurance -> which would be:
Bandit, Grebber, Hunter, Master Chef, Mercenary, Mountaineer, Nomad, Outdoorsman, Outlaw, Wastelander

I think the Thievery subclasses PLUS the leftover Secondary Combat Skills should get + to agility -> which would be:
Archer, Guard, Marksman, Con Artist, Poisoner, Rogue, Slipknife, Thief.


Guard getting Agility is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Endurance. 
Poisoner getting Agility is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Endurance.
Bard getting Wisdom is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Agility.
Hunter getting Endurance is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Agility.

Quote from: mansa on May 03, 2023, 05:44:43 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on May 02, 2023, 03:02:53 PM
Something we have been discussing is slightly changing how stats are handled.  Part of this would be some small changes to the stats that Classes get, so that each class got two stat bumps, each to a different stat.  Currently most Classes are like this, but some give a double bump to a single stat, which is offset with a negative to another stat, so that the total net stat bump is the same across all the normal Classes.  This would change to something along potentially with some of the combinations, probably to something like:

(https://i.imgur.com/JIb1hB8.jpg)

We are discussing then combining this with a stat bump that each mundane subclass would give, something that might look like:

(https://i.imgur.com/vtAmvic.jpg)

So folks would get two bumps from their guild, and one bump from their mundane subclass.

I've separated out the subclasses into my own categories:

Weapon Skills	Secondary Combat Skills	Exploration	Thievery	Perception & Languages	Crafting
Berserker	Archer	Bandit	Con Artist	Bard	Armormaker
Bruiser	Bounty Hunter	Grebber	Poisoner	Caravan Guide	Crafter
Lancer	Guard	Hunter	Rogue	House Servant	Custom Crafter
Pit Fighter	Marksman	Master Chef	Slipknife	Linguist	Forester
Reaver	Thug	Mercenary	Thief	Master Trader	Jeweler
Swordsman		Mountaineer			Physician
		Nomad			Tailor
		Outdoorsman			Weaponcrafter
		Outlaw
		Wastelander

I think the subclasses that get weapon skills or the SAP skill should have + to strength -> which would be:
Berserker, Bruiser, Lancer, Pit Fighter, Reaver, Swordsman, Bounty Hunter, and Thug.

I think the Crafting subclasses PLUS the subclasses in Perception & Languages should get + to wisdom -> which would be:
Bard, Caravan Guide, House Servant, Linguist, Master Trader, Armormaker, Crafter, Custom Crafter, Forester, Jeweler, Physician, Tailor, Weaponcrafter

I think the Exploration subclasses should have + to endurance -> which would be:
Bandit, Grebber, Hunter, Master Chef, Mercenary, Mountaineer, Nomad, Outdoorsman, Outlaw, Wastelander

I think the Thievery subclasses PLUS the leftover Secondary Combat Skills should get + to agility -> which would be:
Archer, Guard, Marksman, Con Artist, Poisoner, Rogue, Slipknife, Thief.


Guard getting Agility is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Endurance. 
Poisoner getting Agility is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Endurance.
Bard getting Wisdom is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Agility.
Hunter getting Endurance is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Agility.

Yes, yes, yes. People should think twice before going magicker. These additional stat bonuses for subclasses would be amazing.

If these are implemented, would we be able to app for the skills and buffs to stats, or would characters currently with these subguilds just be SOL?

Quote from: RheaGhe on May 04, 2023, 08:28:43 AM
If these are implemented, would we be able to app for the skills and buffs to stats, or would characters currently with these subguilds just be SOL?

If you had a subguild that gained new skills, they would automatically show up.  Either through failing a skill it branches from (if it branches), or next time you logged in.

For stats, we probably wouldn't adjust any existing players unless they were willing to also adjust stats for their main guild.  Currently all main guilds get +2 to stats somewhere.  It might be +1 agil +1 end, or it may be +2 to str, or it could even be something like +2 str +1 agil, -1 wis.  But it all evens out to +2.  Brokkr's proposal would be to adjust some of the main guilds so that no one gets +2 in a stat.  So Fighter, for example, might change from +2 str to being +1 str +1 agil.  And then mundane subguilds get another + to a stat making +3 total.  So if we were to adjust people to add the subguild bonus, then we'd have to adjust the main guild too.  It's a bit too early to say what we'll do for sure, this is just explaining the considerations.

Quote from: mansa on May 03, 2023, 05:09:54 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on May 02, 2023, 02:39:33 PM

Quote from: mansa on May 01, 2023, 11:23:54 PM
Physician should get clayworking (to make the different types of clay vials)
Jeweler should get higher forage, to find the diamonds in the rough.

Both ideas incorporated.

For my own spreadsheet of this, what proficiencies are you thinking of clayworking / forage.
Would you give custom crafting of clayworking to Physicians?

Right now I have it at advanced for both.  Physician already has 3 master level crafting skills.  Meanwhile, Crafter subclass is the only one currently with master level clayworking.  But it is a really weak subclass if it doesn't have the uniqueness of off skills that you can't CC otherwise with a subclass, currently basketweaving, stoneworking and clayworking.

Quote from: wizturbo on May 03, 2023, 05:02:55 PM
I like the stat boosts from subguild, and I like how you put strength exclusively on the combat focused subguilds.

My only recommendation would be to consider putting the wisdom bonus from crafting subguilds as +2 instead of +1, given the relatively lesser value wisdom has compared to Str/Agi/End.  Could always change this later if wisdom gets some more applications.

I would abuse this on combat characters, wisdom is OP

Quote from: Brokkr on May 01, 2023, 11:22:54 PM

Quote from: Lotion on May 01, 2023, 09:27:55 PM
cavilish on caravan guide is so nice. would be cool to give it wild scan/hunt flags and maybe hide. useless on their own but very nice when supporting various other main guilds also good to include cavilish more places

Kind of hard for me to evaluate feedback like this unless you mention what you are comparing it to.  Lots of subclasses would benefit from more skills.  What is lacking here, or what is it too close to, or how did you evaluate that those skills would be needed?  I'm sort of lost on how to take some of the feedback that seems stream of conciousness like this.

I meant it would be useful, interesting, and also not overpowered to give caravan guide the wildnerness hunt flat. Without an external source of the hunt skill it would not give any benefit.

Quote from: mansa on May 03, 2023, 05:44:43 PM
Guard getting Agility is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Endurance. 
Poisoner getting Agility is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Endurance.
Bard getting Wisdom is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Agility.
Hunter getting Endurance is a bit different - Brokkr has it getting Agility.

My thought process was similar to your rubric.  As for the differences in your logic vs mine...

Guards are guarding people.  Used to taking punishment.  HPs are important for a guard.
Poisoner, not sure how that got in your thief category, with them not having any theft/stealth skills.  Their main skill is poisoning, which they fail, so endurance is important thematically to survive that.
Bard isn't perception in how I oriented things because I didn't have a perception category.  They do have sleight of hand and steal, so I was putting them into the thief category, thus agility.
Hunter could go either way.  They don't get climb/or outdoor sneak which would benefit from endurance.  They do have archery and skinning though, which are the core of the concept.

Considering replacing Con Artist skill scan with flee, at the suggestion of another Staff member.

Quote from: Brokkr on May 04, 2023, 05:45:36 PM
Considering replacing Con Artist skill scan with flee, at the suggestion of another Staff member.

I like Scan for con artist, although having it only go to Advanced... maybe Flee would be better.  If it went to Advanced.

Quote from: Brokkr on May 04, 2023, 05:45:36 PM
Considering replacing Con Artist skill scan with flee, at the suggestion of another Staff member.

To me, if a class/subclass has HIDE, it should get SCAN.   Much like if a class gets STEAL, it should also get PEEK.

Nothing sucks more having master hide, and being unable to spot anybody else hiding, even though you're an expert at it.  That was the worst part of playing a burglar class.

You just got me to wondering how someone can be hiding and scanning at the same time.  Like, even if you aren't hiding behind some table with your view obscured, aren't you looking all over the place and thus drawing attention to yourself?

This seems to be like one of those personal preferences of play issues.  It doesn't really impact your hiding, that you can't see other folks that are hiding.  It is just kind of your personal preference to be able to do so.

At this point I think we are getting fairly close to locking things in, hopefully.

QuoteTo me, if a class/subclass has HIDE, it should get SCAN.   Much like if a class gets STEAL, it should also get PEEK.

Nothing sucks more having master hide, and being unable to spot anybody else hiding, even though you're an expert at it.  That was the worst part of playing a burglar class.

As someone who loved playing burglars, not sure I agree.  My burglars were great at using watch, like a spy, an observer, not at finding hidden targets.  That being said, I could use planning and observation to know what places they were likely to be visible if I needed them to be.

I don't agree that scan and hide have the same relationship as steal and peek.  Likewise, scan doesn't have the same usefulness of peek at lower levels; peek can fail a lot, but it doesn't cost you anything.  Scan really only becomes 'useful' at levels high enough that it works, and when you spread that out in accessibility too much it makes stealth unusable for non-pvp settings.

Ironically, you're basically pushing to hurt the people who -aren't- using hide to jump you, and are instead looking to linger and watch, by negating hide.

Quote from: Brokkr on May 04, 2023, 07:02:10 PM
You just got me to wondering how someone can be hiding and scanning at the same time.  Like, even if you aren't hiding behind some table with your view obscured, aren't you looking all over the place and thus drawing attention to yourself?

This seems to be like one of those personal preferences of play issues.  It doesn't really impact your hiding, that you can't see other folks that are hiding.  It is just kind of your personal preference to be able to do so.

At this point I think we are getting fairly close to locking things in, hopefully.

I don't know that it's a matter of hiding and scanning at the same time, but rather, since you're sooo good at hiding, you know what to look for when others are trying to hide or seem less conspicuous.

Or they're hiding behind that couch with you

Quote from: DesertT on May 04, 2023, 09:15:58 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on May 04, 2023, 07:02:10 PM
You just got me to wondering how someone can be hiding and scanning at the same time.  Like, even if you aren't hiding behind some table with your view obscured, aren't you looking all over the place and thus drawing attention to yourself?

This seems to be like one of those personal preferences of play issues.  It doesn't really impact your hiding, that you can't see other folks that are hiding.  It is just kind of your personal preference to be able to do so.

At this point I think we are getting fairly close to locking things in, hopefully.

I don't know that it's a matter of hiding and scanning at the same time, but rather, since you're sooo good at hiding, you know what to look for when others are trying to hide or seem less conspicuous.

This sentiment exactly.  I'm very good at pool for instance in real life.  I can watch someone play pool and simply know they are decent or a beginner by the knowledge I possess.  I don't need to have the same level of knowledge of pool as a TV reporter who has covered the sport for twenty years to at least get that much.

How the code works is you could be a MASTER at hiding, but can't seem to even have a chance of seeing another master without scan.

While I think it's good to have scan and all that, there should be some measure of the calculation for success based on your own skill at hiding and knowing the best practices and so on.

Quote from: Brokkr on May 04, 2023, 07:02:10 PM
You just got me to wondering how someone can be hiding and scanning at the same time.  Like, even if you aren't hiding behind some table with your view obscured, aren't you looking all over the place and thus drawing attention to yourself?

This seems to be like one of those personal preferences of play issues.  It doesn't really impact your hiding, that you can't see other folks that are hiding.  It is just kind of your personal preference to be able to do so.

At this point I think we are getting fairly close to locking things in, hopefully.

It is possible to scan discreetly. Hide is not nobody can see you, it's that nobody notices you. They might see you but you blend in and aren't worth really paying attention to.

I honestly think that hide code should be similar to brew and poison's synergies.  Someone who has Master scan + Hide should be able to see more hidden people than just a master at scan alone.

Now, here's the thought I just had.

I keep thinking of these subclasses as complete "mini-classes" with no optional skills.   They are complete units by themselves.   Perhaps con-artists shouldn't have scan, but flee is better for the character trope.

Would be interesting to be able to pick 3 subclasses instead of having a main + subguild.  Choose your own class.

Quote from: mansa on May 05, 2023, 09:07:49 PM
Now, here's the thought I just had.

I keep thinking of these subclasses as complete "mini-classes" with no optional skills.   They are complete units by themselves.   Perhaps con-artists shouldn't have scan, but flee is better for the character trope.

I'd argue for a different idea for Con-artists.

Keep scan, they need it to spot marks.

Flee is silly, only a "bad" con-artist needs to run away.

Quote from: RheaGhe on May 06, 2023, 02:18:10 AM

Quote from: mansa on May 05, 2023, 09:07:49 PM
Now, here's the thought I just had.

I keep thinking of these subclasses as complete "mini-classes" with no optional skills.   They are complete units by themselves.   Perhaps con-artists shouldn't have scan, but flee is better for the character trope.

I'd argue for a different idea for Con-artists.

Keep scan, they need it to spot marks.

Flee is silly, only a "bad" con-artist needs to run away.

Welcome to Armageddon, everyone starts out bad here.

Quote from: Pariah on May 06, 2023, 02:30:44 AM

Quote from: RheaGhe on May 06, 2023, 02:18:10 AM

Quote from: mansa on May 05, 2023, 09:07:49 PM
Now, here's the thought I just had.

I keep thinking of these subclasses as complete "mini-classes" with no optional skills.   They are complete units by themselves.   Perhaps con-artists shouldn't have scan, but flee is better for the character trope.

I'd argue for a different idea for Con-artists.

Keep scan, they need it to spot marks.

Flee is silly, only a "bad" con-artist needs to run away.

Welcome to Armageddon, everyone starts out bad here.

Not what I mean...

Conceptually, you assume that a guild/subguild is going to be successful.

It's the reason Miscreant, a VERY versatile class, doesn't have certain skills that would be nice to have, because it would prevent failure early on, but later on would prove poorly used.

Conceptually, A successful con-artist, shouldn't be running away, fleeing just proves the accuser right.

Conceptually, a successful pickpocket flees, because they need to act quickly.

I will probably stick with the most famous advice I know on swindlin' people:

You got to know when to hold 'em,
know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away,
and know when to run

I think it may be a good idea to give Mercenary a skillset that would enable someone to join the Byn and be mildly competent regardless of their mainguild choice.   Maybe it's just a name swap with another more combat capable subguild?

What we're trying to avoid is power/skill creep.  I know there's a lot of "it makes sense if so-and-so gets this skill", and while you could tailor an argument to support most of those of claims, we want to maintain some game balance.  We don't want a combo who can do so many things that they're a one-person-shop.

Add to that the notion that it's easier to add more things later to a subguild than to take away.  If your-favorite-subguild doesn't get the skill you think it should and we add it now, but later decide it's OP, there'd be hell to pay if we removed it. 

I had a very long list of skills to remove from all of this, and after some convo's with Brokkr we reduced that by a good bit.  In fact, I think we should all collectively be looking at it from the angle of "what combo of these proposals would be OP?".

I don't see a subguild with flee and parry which IMO was obvious choice for all classes that don't get those skill as they are #1 for surviving combat.  If I had to pick between the two, I'd take flee over parry but now there appear to be no subclasses with that?

Quote from: Halaster on May 06, 2023, 10:13:52 AM
In fact, I think we should all collectively be looking at it from the angle of "what combo of these proposals would be OP?".

I love these subclasses. I don't know if I'd call anything, but some are pretty fucking deadly, especially with certain racial traits.

Delf scout/slipknife is pk perfection.

In general, delves ability to get this new level of City/Criminal skills I think will be the biggest change in the game world. It really cements Delves as simply being a superior version of elf, with better abilities and starting skills, rather than just a "different" kind of elf.

Not saying I'm against it, but this opens up more new options for delves than anyone else. For example, previously I could play a human infiltrator/outdoorsman and it wouldn't be that much different than the new scout/slipknife combo in terms of effectiveness and role aside from a few skills and abilities. Delves never had that option, they do now.

Master criminal/city skills were never available to delves before, and in my mind that was for balance as much as it was for theme.

Quote from: Agent_137 on May 06, 2023, 10:25:32 AM
I don't see a subguild with flee and parry which IMO was obvious choice for all classes that don't get those skill as they are #1 for surviving combat.  If I had to pick between the two, I'd take flee over parry but now there appear to be no subclasses with that?

Guard has Master parry and Advanced flee based on the excel image thingy.

Quote from: Halaster on May 06, 2023, 10:13:52 AM
What we're trying to avoid is power/skill creep.  I know there's a lot of "it makes sense if so-and-so gets this skill", and while you could tailor an argument to support most of those of claims, we want to maintain some game balance.  We don't want a combo who can do so many things that they're a one-person-shop.

Add to that the notion that it's easier to add more things later to a subguild than to take away.  If your-favorite-subguild doesn't get the skill you think it should and we add it now, but later decide it's OP, there'd be hell to pay if we removed it. 

I had a very long list of skills to remove from all of this, and after some convo's with Brokkr we reduced that by a good bit.  In fact, I think we should all collectively be looking at it from the angle of "what combo of these proposals would be OP?".

When I think of "Over Powered" subclasses, I immediately disregard any of the crafting subclasses, and social engineering category of classes (thievery, perception, language), and focus purely on combat oriented classes.


I start to think about how characters are constructed:  class + subclass
Since most of the magick is put into a subclass, the other subclasses should give perks that people can use to get an edge over magick subclasses.  I'm curious how much will but cut-back from the recently presented list.

Quote from: Brokkr on May 06, 2023, 03:26:08 AM
I will probably stick with the most famous advice I know on swindlin' people:

You got to know when to hold 'em,
know when to fold 'em,
Know when to walk away,
and know when to run

That's the Gambler.  I don't see a gambling subclass.

All I read here was, regardless of what arguments have been stated, we're going with what one staff member suggested.

Dude got the last swallow and the cigarette, he was totally a con artist.

Most of the arguments seem to simply be what people prefer.  Or stuff like spotting marks.  That are hidden?  To do...what, exactly?

A gambler is a good approximation of how I view the subclass.  Peek to see their cards, sleight of hand to switch around yours.

How were you thinking of it?

QuoteMost of the arguments seem to simply be what people prefer.  Or stuff like spotting marks.  That are hidden?  To do...what, exactly?

I was posting something similar and deleted it.  Not sure why you'd see someone trying to avoid notice as a potential conartist mark.  Blackmail maybe?  Not sure.

Mostly, though...everyone is trying to put certain skills into every toolkit, without regard for how those impact other toolkits.  We can't have everyone being an anti-stealth specialist just because you want to be defensible against stealth.  Every character should have holes that they need help filling, and that's been my complaint about the class revamp for quite some time.

Quote from: Halaster on May 06, 2023, 10:13:52 AM
"what combo of these proposals would be OP?".

Subguilds that give master sap + stealth or master backstab + stealh seem potentially scary in combination with heavy combat main guilds.

Quote from: Brokkr on May 06, 2023, 06:26:20 PM
Dude got the last swallow and the cigarette, he was totally a con artist.

Most of the arguments seem to simply be what people prefer.  Or stuff like spotting marks.  That are hidden?  To do...what, exactly?

A gambler is a good approximation of how I view the subclass.  Peek to see their cards, sleight of hand to switch around yours.

How were you thinking of it?

My point remains from earlier in this thread that someone who is skilled at hiding and sneaking would be more able to skillfully pick out someone else who is also employing the same tips and tricks that they themselves use.

CATCH ME IF YOU CAN is a perfect example of this.  A con artist who had a wildly successful career, gets caught, essentially gets "rescued" by the United States, then is basically forced to help the FBI catch other con artists.

Is there a better real life example?

Quote from: wizturbo on May 06, 2023, 09:35:17 PM

Quote from: Halaster on May 06, 2023, 10:13:52 AM
"what combo of these proposals would be OP?".

Subguilds that give master sap + stealth or master backstab + stealh seem potentially scary in combination with heavy combat main guilds.

In a world of magical subclasses, nothing mundane is going to be all that OP.

Quote from: DesertT on May 06, 2023, 05:57:03 PM
All I read here was, regardless of what arguments have been stated, we're going with what one staff member suggested.

Then you've completely missed the point of two different staffers posting and discussing ideas.  Not to mention how many player ideas Brokkr specifically incorporated.

   
@Halaster

I was specifically responding to Brokkr's post regarding the Con Artist sub-class which he made below.

Was your post specifically talking about Brokkr's post below or other parts of the conversation that have branched after Brokkr's below post?

My comment was specifically about Con Artist. 

Maybe I should add that I'm getting more and more bitter. 

But that's for another complaint tool.  :D

Quote from: Brokkr on May 04, 2023, 05:45:36 PM
Considering replacing Con Artist skill scan with flee, at the suggestion of another Staff member.

Maybe I should've done better and quoted the exact post I was referring to, so now I have.

To recap, the whole story behind the movie "Catch Me if You Can" would seem to support a con artist being able to spot other con artists, thus why his involvement with the FBI to catch other con artists.

That only goes to my point of a Con Artist being able to both Hide and Scan, rather than Hide and Flee, which according to Brokkr, was suggested by ONE staff member.

Dude, if being great at both scan and stealth mean that much to you, pick one of the four main classes that offer Master in both!

There shouldn't be any subclasses that give both Master scan and Stealth, it's too much.

I'm completely glossing over any arguement DesertT makes because he thinks it's okay to make his words bigger than everyone else.

Quote from: DesertT on May 07, 2023, 05:20:42 PM
To recap, the whole story behind the movie "Catch Me if You Can" would seem to support a con artist being able to spot other con artists, thus why his involvement with the FBI to catch other con artists.

That only goes to my point of a Con Artist being able to both Hide and Scan, rather than Hide and Flee, which according to Brokkr, was suggested by ONE staff member.[/size][/font]

The guy in the movie was also really good at evading the authorities and running from them, which sounds like flee to me.  I get where you're coming from, but that's a movie about a guy pretending to be other people and forgery, which just is not really an applicable comparison in my opinion. 

I have taken Staff feedback a couple of times now.  The only thing out of the ordinary is that it came, and was something I agreed with, after I had made things public, again.

I've also taken plenty of player feedback, incorporating some and not incorporating some, which becomes a judgement call.  Some of the feedback that was incorporated also sometimes came from a single player, so not sure why something being from a Staff member is more triggering than another player having a differing viewpoint.  All they did was make a suggestion that I agreed with.  Just like pretty much all the changes that have been incorporated, whether from Staff or players.

I Like. Big. Words and I cannot lie...

Also, age.

Lastly, I'm just frustrated overall.

I seem to be on the losing end of every objection or even suggestion that I make to Staff regarding anything right now.

IC and OOC.

I could understand batting .500; hell, I could understand batting .150, but I'm batting .000 and it feels AMAZING!!

Honestly I think your font has a lot to do with that, I kind of gloss over your posts too lol

Quote from: DesertT on May 08, 2023, 01:56:25 PM
I could understand batting .500; hell, I could understand batting .150, but I'm batting .000 and it feels AMAZING!!

The frustration evident in your posts (and that blasphemous font) likely impact your 'hit' rate.  But the analogy here is kind of busted.  I don't think the staff are trying to throw fast balls at you.  It's a rigged game, they want you to hit home runs. 

My suggestion is to poke staff and ask for a chat.  Go have a virtual beer together, clear the air and reset your 'swing' and have them better calibrate their pitches so you can slam more home runs.

Fine, you assholes.  I won't use bigger font.

Quote from: wizturbo on May 08, 2023, 02:19:09 PM
It's a rigged game, they want you to hit home runs.

You say this, and I want to believe this, but of late, it certainly does not feel like it.

Quote from: wizturbo on May 08, 2023, 02:19:09 PM
My suggestion is to poke staff and ask for a chat.  Go have a virtual beer together, clear the air and reset your 'swing' and have them better calibrate their pitches so you can slam more home runs.

I have a couple/few requests trading comments back and forth with staff, so I feel like I am doing this, but as I keep getting denied even for small things...

If it hasn't been suggested,  double picks of the same skill should raise the cap.

Quote from: cali on May 08, 2023, 03:14:53 PM
If it hasn't been suggested,  double picks of the same skill should raise the cap.

By how much? If stalker gets 90 ride and nomad gets 80 ride do I get a ride cap above 100 with stalker/nomad?

Why not take the average....Ride of 80, ride of 90, your cap is 85.

Quote from: DesertT on May 08, 2023, 02:31:48 PM
You say this, and I want to believe this, but of late, it certainly does not feel like it.

I have a couple/few requests trading comments back and forth with staff, so I feel like I am doing this, but as I keep getting denied even for small things...

I feel ya man.  I felt the same way when I played a sponsored role, and wish I could go back in time and have asked for a sit down re-calibration talk.

I remember the ONLY time I had a real time conversation with Brokkr was when he set up my Templar.  He even said "this will be the last time we have this kind of talk, any questions?" or something along those lines.  I think that's a bad model.  If you're playing a sponsored role for RL years of time, you should probably be able to have an OOC "how we work together" talk with your staffer.  I think it'd help both parties hit home runs.

Quote from: Lotion on May 08, 2023, 03:54:32 PM

Quote from: cali on May 08, 2023, 03:14:53 PM
If it hasn't been suggested,  double picks of the same skill should raise the cap.

By how much? If stalker gets 90 ride and nomad gets 80 ride do I get a ride cap above 100 with stalker/nomad?

Something like:
Master + Master = 100
Master + Advanced = 95
Advanced + Advanced = 90
Advanced + Journey = 85
Journey + Journey= 80

Just so long as the mundane class can get an advantage over the Magick class, as theoretically they spend more time in their mundane skills and the filthy magickers are splitting their focus.

Quote from: Krath on May 08, 2023, 03:58:31 PM
Why not take the average....Ride of 80, ride of 90, your cap is 85.

this would only lower your cap and punish players for picking subguilds with skill overlap ever higher than they already indirectly are from opportunity cost

Quote from: cali on May 08, 2023, 03:14:53 PM
If it hasn't been suggested,  double picks of the same skill should raise the cap.

For various reasons, this won't happen.  What I did try to do is make it so choosing a subclass would give a bump in starting skill level, in order to give some benefit for overlapping skills, as well as trying to address some concerns raised over the grind.

Quote from: Brokkr on May 08, 2023, 05:00:47 PM

Quote from: cali on May 08, 2023, 03:14:53 PM
If it hasn't been suggested,  double picks of the same skill should raise the cap.

For various reasons, this won't happen.  What I did try to do is make it so choosing a subclass would give a bump in starting skill level, in order to give some benefit for overlapping skills, as well as trying to address some concerns raised over the grind.

Well done. <No Sarcasm>

So first off I'm using the spreadsheet mansa posted for this rather than the images.

I've got a few points that I think would add variety of choice to this list and help balance out each category.

Second off, the weapon skill based ones look fine, but I'm dogshit at combat. So fuck if I know.

EXPLORATION CLASSES
1. Outdoorsman should branch Forage to advanced instead of Hunt(Wilderness), leave Hunting the domain of the hunter. Keep outdoorsman more of a general survivalist.
2. Why is Master Chef underneath exploration classes and not crafting? Remove skinning from it(It makes no sense for a chef to butcher it's own meat). And give it Brew up too advanced branching from Cooking. And then place it under Crafting.
3. Wastelander should start with Dsense and branch it to search. Not the other way around. This makes for a more sensible progression, and puts a more useful skill up front and center.
4. Why does wastelander allow wilderness forage but not have forage skill. Possible fix: Replace search for forage. Or add forage, and place search after it instead. As it is wastelander is relatively barren and underpowered from my albeit limited perspective.
5. Remove Wilderness stealth/hunt from Grebber, and add in Hitching 2 mounts. This is a much more effective and useful trait that fits more with what grebbers actually do. This also makes them juicier targets for raiders than they already are. And more obvious targets. Get rid of sling use as well.
6. Similarly I'd replace the hunting on grebber, with Bendune. As it would be important to have to negotiate for claim rights with nomads. Make it more super utility, but largely lacking ways to defend itself.
7. Give mountaineer Forage and maybe skinning, to emphasize the survival aspect of them. Probably at advanced. It's got much less skills than the rest of the Exploration category. This is a class that's focused on being able to survive in distant places in the world like mountains. They need to be able to find food, and strip that food of nutrients. Give it medium movement regeneration as well. Climbing is rough and working at high elevations would likely require them to learn breathing techniques.

THIEVERY
1.Why thief and rogue as separate subclasses? Largely these two are doing the same things. And it feels like an attempt to make halves out of a whole class for them them. Propose cutting the perception skills except for peek. And rolling Thief into Rogue. And lastly Removing sap. Keep whichever name you prefer.
2: Poisoner looks choice. Very solid pick on a more subtly insidious character. I would give them alcohol tolerance, as a just general thematic resistance to poison.

PERCEPTION AND LANGUAGES:
1. Bard should get tool making to advanced and floristry to advanced. They should also get value. Have them give up watch or steal for this. If anything at all. It's another relatively low skill subclass. This would be more representative of the archetype. Maybe potentially give them the ability to selftrain Illustration to master if you really want to incentivize the artsy stuff.
2. Master trader should get Bendune. And so should Linguist. These people have the justification, and bendune needs to be spoken more.
3. That's about all I got. Hopefully I got these potential thoughts and explained them well enough.


Hopefully these aren't too late to be considered.

There's a few things:

a) Brokkr said that they won't put Ride, Climb, Skinning, and Desert Sense together into a subclass.

b) In the current iteration, subclasses are meant to be a secondary job or a hobby, and not the main class.  There are main classes that have all the skills you want - subclasses are currently designed to not function as your primary role.


With that being said:

Quote2. Why is Master Chef underneath exploration classes and not crafting? Remove skinning from it(It makes no sense for a chef to butcher it's own meat). And give it Brew up too advanced branching from Cooking. And then place it under Crafting.

It's an exploration class, based on the skills it has.  It's not a crafting class.

Quote7. Give mountaineer Forage and maybe skinning, to emphasize the survival aspect of them. Probably at advanced. It's got much less skills than the rest of the Exploration category. This is a class that's focused on being able to survive in distant places in the world like mountains. They need to be able to find food, and strip that food of nutrients. Give it medium movement regeneration as well. Climbing is rough and working at high elevations would likely require them to learn breathing techniques.

These suggestions are just replacing a class and turning it into a subclass.  It also goes against one of the rules that Brokkr stated - don't give a subclass all the exploration skills.

Quote5. Remove Wilderness stealth/hunt from Grebber, and add in Hitching 2 mounts. This is a much more effective and useful trait that fits more with what grebbers actually do. This also makes them juicier targets for raiders than they already are. And more obvious targets. Get rid of sling use as well.
6. Similarly I'd replace the hunting on grebber, with Bendune. As it would be important to have to negotiate for claim rights with nomads. Make it more super utility, but largely lacking ways to defend itself.

In my opinion, the Grebber class is someone that can go outside in the wilderness, by themselves, and find things, and return home.   Like a clay hunter, rock hunter, etc.  It's not a trader or a tribal.

Quote3. Wastelander should start with Dsense and branch it to search. Not the other way around. This makes for a more sensible progression, and puts a more useful skill up front and center.
4. Why does wastelander allow wilderness forage but not have forage skill. Possible fix: Replace search for forage. Or add forage, and place search after it instead. As it is wastelander is relatively barren and underpowered from my albeit limited perspective.

The picture has Wastelander branching desert sense from scan.
The benefits of high forage are that you can find rare gems / artifacts easier - I think the playerbase wanted search instead, since it used to be only on city-based thievery classes, and that's why it was added.

Quote1.Why thief and rogue as separate subclasses? Largely these two are doing the same things. And it feels like an attempt to make halves out of a whole class for them them. Propose cutting the perception skills except for peek. And rolling Thief into Rogue. And lastly Removing sap. Keep whichever name you prefer.

Rogue is burglar-lite - basically making a mini version of the old class - hence why it has lockpicking.
Thief is pickpocket-lite - basically making a mini version of the old class - hence why it has sap.

Quote from: mansa on May 13, 2023, 12:30:08 AM
There's a few things:

a) Brokkr said that they won't put Ride, Climb, Skinning, and Desert Sense together into a subclass.

b) In the current iteration, subclasses are meant to be a secondary job or a hobby, and not the main class.  There are main classes that have all the skills you want - subclasses are currently designed to not function as your primary role.


With that being said:

Quote2. Why is Master Chef underneath exploration classes and not crafting? Remove skinning from it(It makes no sense for a chef to butcher it's own meat). And give it Brew up too advanced branching from Cooking. And then place it under Crafting.

It's an exploration class, based on the skills it has.  It's not a crafting class.

Quote7. Give mountaineer Forage and maybe skinning, to emphasize the survival aspect of them. Probably at advanced. It's got much less skills than the rest of the Exploration category. This is a class that's focused on being able to survive in distant places in the world like mountains. They need to be able to find food, and strip that food of nutrients. Give it medium movement regeneration as well. Climbing is rough and working at high elevations would likely require them to learn breathing techniques.

These suggestions are just replacing a class and turning it into a subclass.  It also goes against one of the rules that Brokkr stated - don't give a subclass all the exploration skills.

Quote5. Remove Wilderness stealth/hunt from Grebber, and add in Hitching 2 mounts. This is a much more effective and useful trait that fits more with what grebbers actually do. This also makes them juicier targets for raiders than they already are. And more obvious targets. Get rid of sling use as well.
6. Similarly I'd replace the hunting on grebber, with Bendune. As it would be important to have to negotiate for claim rights with nomads. Make it more super utility, but largely lacking ways to defend itself.

In my opinion, the Grebber class is someone that can go outside in the wilderness, by themselves, and find things, and return home.   Like a clay hunter, rock hunter, etc.  It's not a trader or a tribal.

Quote3. Wastelander should start with Dsense and branch it to search. Not the other way around. This makes for a more sensible progression, and puts a more useful skill up front and center.
4. Why does wastelander allow wilderness forage but not have forage skill. Possible fix: Replace search for forage. Or add forage, and place search after it instead. As it is wastelander is relatively barren and underpowered from my albeit limited perspective.

The picture has Wastelander branching desert sense from scan.
The benefits of high forage are that you can find rare gems / artifacts easier - I think the playerbase wanted search instead, since it used to be only on city-based thievery classes, and that's why it was added.

Quote1.Why thief and rogue as separate subclasses? Largely these two are doing the same things. And it feels like an attempt to make halves out of a whole class for them them. Propose cutting the perception skills except for peek. And rolling Thief into Rogue. And lastly Removing sap. Keep whichever name you prefer.

Rogue is burglar-lite - basically making a mini version of the old class - hence why it has lockpicking.
Thief is pickpocket-lite - basically making a mini version of the old class - hence why it has sap.

Ah that's why it looked familiar. I really don't like the random sap in Thief though... Feel like it's more of a rogue-ish action. And vice versa for lockpicking. I really hate the distinction as well. Between varieties of thief. As it is, it's really hard to even play a side thief without having all the thief skills and all the perception skills. And that would make it a main job if it did that. So I think combining the two and making it very focused on the thieving actions would be a better one.

Branching D-sense from scan is better, I misread the image. Sorry.

Didn't realize that rule against those 4 skills. In that case, rather than skinning, do tool making, and stoneworking, to emphasize the mountaineering aspects of shaping stone for handholds, and making tools to do so.

In my mind the grebber is an example of a claim jumper, a person who travels in search of wealth scavenging what they can. Wandering the wastes looking for valuable things. The dual mounts would let them ride and have a second mount for additional storage. They wouldn't necessarily have hunting skill. I don't think it fits it. Conceptually it's either not useful at all, or potentially too useful. As it is with the things they have in there... A grebber can way too easily tell if an area is occupied before they begin harvesting, they feel like too safe of a choice for easy money. They also feel really broad right now. I think doing a second pass.

I'd remove the sling use, remove search, lower climb to advanced, remove hunt, and add in value(Need to know what rocks are worth picking up/what claims are good to jump), the 2 mounts, and maybe bendune, but that's mostly because it feels like they would be in tribal territory a lot, and a lot of claim jumpers and stakers tended to learn native languages to better attain local details.

As it is, master chef and Grebber compete for a niche that I'm just going to call the $$ niche. And I don't think master chef should be called master chef, given that it's more exploration focused. I think, Cook, or Wanderer, drifter, or something similar would be better. Chef implies a profession and a sole focus on cuisine. And it would give it a better focus and clarity to what it's trying to accomplish.

You are forgetting that we are not going to take away skills that stuff currently has, because it would disappear from current character's skillsheets.

Quote from: Brokkr on May 13, 2023, 03:34:45 AM
You are forgetting that we are not going to take away skills that stuff currently has, because it would disappear from current character's skillsheets.

Ah... That makes any tweaks like this even more hard. Thank you though. Just was trying to find an ideal.

Seriously do think the Master Chef should be called something else.

Quote from: Brokkr on May 01, 2023, 07:36:57 PM
cast 'mon un nilaz morz inrof' subclass.thread

Necro'ing this thread, as I have gotten back to this.

To recap last episode:

• Make all mundane subclasses 0 Karma.
• In cases of duplicate or near duplicate subclasses, 0 karma subclass survives.
• Surviving subclasses have all the skills that dead extended subclass had.
• Dead extended subclasses don't get deleted, just made inactive in character generation.
• Skills new to surviving 0 karma subclasses typically made branchable, so that players can branch with a failure, rather than needing stuff to add a skill.

What does this look like, in terms of which subclasses would remain?  Like this!

(https://i.imgur.com/F7UrRq9.jpg)

What skills would mundane subclasses get, and to what levels?  Whelp...


(https://i.imgur.com/ht67qLL.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/vKxGSHk.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/Ff3ArHB.jpg)



(https://i.imgur.com/827rJnz.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/M2mspKG.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/5IH3b7s.jpg)



(https://i.imgur.com/PwlUqEb.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/Q5XEaI7.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/68RqwYs.jpg)



(https://i.imgur.com/hCJIr1a.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/bn8A5CW.jpg)   (https://i.imgur.com/4aRwXnl.jpg)


In addition to what you can see here, intending to try to get the minimum starting level for most subclass skills to a level where they would be above, and thus provide benefit to, any class.  One way would be to look at the highest starting skill level any guild gets a skill at, and add a handful of points and start there.  A different way, which is how I have it set up in my spreadsheets now, would be to start all skills at Journeyman or higher skill level.  This would be in general give starting levels equal to or higher than the first method.

what if delves/elves got something in place of ride? is that something that's a possibility? a lot of these subs get access to higher levels of a skill that is completely useless to these races.

Quote from: strangerdanger on May 16, 2023, 08:28:39 AM
what if delves/elves got something in place of ride? is that something that's a possibility? a lot of these subs get access to higher levels of a skill that is completely useless to these races.

The current system does not allow race specific subclasses branching of a singular subclass.
Using the current system, you would just need to create an additional subclass and let people choose it, and that additional subclass wouldn't have the ride skill.
Look at the proposed changes to Outdoorsman and Hunter subclasses as an example:

Skill	Hunter	Outdoorsman
Archery	Advanced	Advanced
Sneak (Wilderness)	Advanced	Advanced
Hide (Wilderness)		Advanced
Skinning	Master	Advanced
Ride	Advanced
Scan		Master
Hunt (Wilderness)	Master	Advanced
Direction Sense	Advanced	Master
Fletchery	Advanced
Wilderness Quit		x

A couple new subclass options with climb I am definitely in favor of. Not having climb is rough.

Brokkr and I further refined the list and here's the changes to his above list.  I thought some of those were too high and the subguilds were going to be too OP, so you can blame me for toning these down a bit.  I'm trying to avoid too much power-creep, and didn't want subguilds getting -that- many skills at master (Crafter being the main exception).

Archer
- bow making will be high advanced and not master
- fletchery will be high advanced and not master

Bard
- listen will be high advanced and not master

Crafter
- value will be high advanced and not master
- toolmaking will be advanced and not master
- forage will be low advanced and not high advanced
- removing club making

Tailor
- dyeing  will be high advanced and not master
- tanning will be high advanced and not master
- toolmaking will be high advanced and not master

Thief
- sleight of hand will be high advanced and not master
- peek will be high advanced and not master

Weaponscrafter
- removing fletchery

Hunter
- skinning will be low master and not high master
- hunt will be high advanced and not master

Jeweler
- value will be high advanced and not master
- feather working will be high advanced and not master

Forester
- skinning will be journeyman instead of advanced
- hunt will be journeyman instead of advanced

Pit-Fighter
- slashing weapons will be low advanced instead of low master

Guard
- guarding will be high advanced and not master
- parry will be high advanced and not master

House Servant
- hide will be low advanced and not high advanced
- pilot will be high advanced and not master
- listen will be high advanced and not master
- cooking will be high advanced and not master

Bounty Hunter
- sap will be low advanced and not low master
- direction sense will be high advanced and not master
- hunt will be high advanced and not master

Caravan Guide
- pilot will be high advanced and not master
- direction sense will be high advanced and not master

Con Artist
- hide will be high advanced and not master
- listen will be high advanced and not master
- haggle will be high advanced and not master

Thug
- bash will be high advanced and not master
- flee will be high advanced and not master

Mercenary
- dual wield will be low advanced and not master

Nomad
- direction sense will be high advanced and not master

Master Chef
- forage will be high advanced and not master

Wastelander
- direction sense will be high advanced and not master

Outlaw
- armor repair will be high advanced and not master

Swordsman
- riposte will be high advanced and not master
- slashing weapons will be low advanced and not master
- two handed will be low advanced and not high advanced

Reaver
- chopping weapons will be low advanced and not master

Poisoner
- cooking will be low advanced and not high advanced
- floristry will be low advanced and not high advanced

Slipknife
- sleight of hand will be high advanced and not master

Grebber
- sling use will be low advanced and not high advanced
- climb will be high advanced and not master

Custom Crafter
- drawing will be high advanced instead of master

Berserker
- chopping weapons will be low advanced and not master

Bruiser
- bludgeoning weapons will be low advanced and not master

Lancer
- piercing weapons will be low advanced and not master

Master Trader
- pilot will be high advanced and not master

Rogue
- climb will be high advanced and not master

Marksman
- archery will be high advanced and not master
- crossbow use will be high advanced and not master
- blowgun use will be high advanced and not master
- sling use will be high advanced and not master

I'm actually glad they've been toned down. Particularly the weapon skills on subclasses.  I like having useful skills but at lower skill levels.  Let's you use them just fine but gives incentives to find someone even more skilled to help.

I actually don't mind the nerfs to Forester, but if so can they get Instrument Making at Advanced? It's not an equality issue, so much as making (mostly) wood instruments should be relatively easy for people who work with wood anyways. Especially if they can master Woodworking, as Foresters can.

I rather liked the sneaky buff to mundanes that those master skills woulda been. It is a shame to see them go.

Quote from: Patuk on June 10, 2023, 06:10:02 AM
I rather liked the sneaky buff to mundanes that those master skills woulda been. It is a shame to see them go.

They're still fairly significant bufs compared to what they were.

I think they are bad. People will keep playing mages, because these do not offer enough compensation.
Take Con artist. With previous recommendation, it was almost decent with master hide. Now it's advanced.
"But advanced hide is still okaaaay" right? No, it's not. You get spotted once and your career is over. You cannot build a long term character around it.
Similarly, low advanced sap for bounty hunter. It's almost annoying when people make comments with 0 experience with it. Low advanced sap is worse than having no sap at all. You at least don't attempt something stupid and waste a character at 40 days played. Sap / hide / backstab are kind of skills that without master or high advanced, they are useless.
Similarly, I had concepts built around Marksman, but now skills I want there are advanced. Archery at advanced is only good if you want to solo Rp hunting duskhorns. For PVP it's crap.

These changes were, in my opinion a direct counter to the rising trend of magicker / mundane balance. Especially in an environment where this balance was shifting in magicker side, and people slowly changing game's culture towards normalizing magick.

Who --> 12 players online, 7 of them magickers. Yeah, quit, store, roll a magicker to a) be their buddies b) PVP assault them (cause mundanes cannot, in their ridiculously weak form). Or if you are a masochist, go RP with that ritikki for another 20 more minutes.

make a max height/weight half-elf stalker with advanced bash on subguild and bash mages from hidden while dual wielding poisoned weapons if you think there are too many mages

do it on a gemmed elkrosian touched

I'll give my review here:
Note: I have put the subclasses into my own preferences of categories that I created, and it's not anything to do with how it is designed - it's just my groupings of how I make sense of it.

Weapon Skills Subclasses
Reaver
- chopping weapons will be low advanced and not master
Berserker
- chopping weapons will be low advanced and not master
Bruiser
- bludgeoning weapons will be low advanced and not master
Lancer
- piercing weapons will be low advanced and not master
Pit-Fighter
- slashing weapons will be low advanced instead of low master
Swordsman
- riposte will be high advanced and not master
- slashing weapons will be low advanced and not master
- two handed will be low advanced and not high advanced
The reduction of the end-level proficiencies of weapon skills seems the major balance issue here.   I assume that is because there are talks of bringing back 'full guild magickers', and they would be able to take these subclasses, and it would make these choices the preferred choice.  I assume the intent is to "prevent swordsman + full guild mage" to be as overpowered as I think it could possibly be.  In other words - no change to the current weapon skills subclasses.


Secondary Combat Skills Subclasses
Marksman
- archery will be high advanced and not master
- crossbow use will be high advanced and not master
- blowgun use will be high advanced and not master
- sling use will be high advanced and not master
Archer
- bow making will be high advanced and not master
- fletchery will be high advanced and not master
Bounty Hunter
- sap will be low advanced and not low master
- direction sense will be high advanced and not master
- hunt will be high advanced and not master
Guard
- guarding will be high advanced and not master
- parry will be high advanced and not master
Thug
- bash will be high advanced and not master
- flee will be high advanced and not master
Similar to the "nerfs" for the weapon skills subclasses, this seems to be aimed at reducing the effectiveness of "full guild mage + subclass" in combat.   In other words - no change to current Marksman, with a buff to current Archer, Bounty Hunter, Guard, and Thug.


Exploration Classes
Mercenary
- dual wield will be low advanced and not master
Outlaw
- armor repair will be high advanced and not master
Master Chef
- forage will be high advanced and not master
Hunter
- skinning will be low master and not high master
- hunt will be high advanced and not master
Grebber
- sling use will be low advanced and not high advanced
- climb will be high advanced and not master
I'm fine with these changes.  Hunter and Grebber seemed very attractive, and still are.


Skullduggery Subclasses
Con Artist
- hide will be high advanced and not master
- listen will be high advanced and not master
- haggle will be high advanced and not master
Slipknife
- sleight of hand will be high advanced and not master
Rogue
- climb will be high advanced and not master
Thief
- sleight of hand will be high advanced and not master
- peek will be high advanced and not master
Poisoner
- cooking will be low advanced and not high advanced
- floristry will be low advanced and not high advanced
I'm fine with these changes.  Rogue losing climb can be counteracted with climbing gear.


Perception & Languages Subclasses
Bard
- listen will be high advanced and not master
House Servant
- hide will be low advanced and not high advanced
- pilot will be high advanced and not master
- listen will be high advanced and not master
- cooking will be high advanced and not master
Master Trader
- pilot will be high advanced and not master
Caravan Guide
- pilot will be high advanced and not master
- direction sense will be high advanced and not master
Nomad
- direction sense will be high advanced and not master
Wastelander
- direction sense will be high advanced and not master
Pilot dropping to high advanced is upsetting, but I'm quickly over it.  Direction sense getting reduced to the current levels is .. okay, I guess.  Sunslit items can boost it up so you never fail.


Crafting Subclasses
Crafter
- value will be high advanced and not master
- toolmaking will be advanced and not master
- forage will be low advanced and not high advanced
- removing club making
Tailor
- dyeing  will be high advanced and not master
- tanning will be high advanced and not master
- toolmaking will be high advanced and not master
Weaponscrafter
- removing fletchery
Jeweler
- value will be high advanced and not master
- feather working will be high advanced and not master
Forester
- skinning will be journeyman instead of advanced
- hunt will be journeyman instead of advanced
Custom Crafter
- drawing will be high advanced instead of master
I'm okay with losing Club Making, since I've argued earlier in the thread to remove it.  "Crafter" and "Master Potter" always seemed weird, and I'm glad it finally got merged to a better subclass.
Weaponscrafter losing Fletchery is the only subclass change I'm not satisfied with.   I assume it's because you can make too many # of crafts and dominate the market without actually being a dedicated merchant class.   If that is the case - Suggestion: Perhaps split it into two? "Large Weapons Crafter" and "Small Weapons Crafter"

A bit late to this party but I want to make a couple points:

1. I hate to say this, because I do like to see these type of changes to the game but I think focusing on the subclasses before working on the classes themselves will cause more work later in the road. The subclasses are supposed to support and round out the classes, but when you have classes like stalker or raider that work so well just about anything, things can get a bit skewed. By fixing/updating the classes first we'll be able to adjust the subclasses to better support the mundane gaming experience. 

2. I regret not supporting the two skill master sub-guilds. The reason being is that I rather be good at just two or three skills, rather than be mediocre in many. I am hoping to see these smaller subclasses back as they add another cool element to the game.

3. All the mage/touched subclasses are enticing, I don't think mundane classes can compete in terms of character power or the roleplay potential it gives a character.  However, I think mundane subclasses, should give a bit more in terms of convenience. With some exception to the weapon/backstab/sab skills, all subclass should probably start the skills at max at their level cap, which would better reflect them being older hobbies from a character's past.

4. sneak/hide for sub guilds should be at high advanced, the same level as they were for old infiltrator levels. That level worked half decent on elves with exceptional agility. 

Quote from: Dresan on June 14, 2023, 01:18:48 PM
1. I hate to say this, because I do like to see these type of changes to the game but I think focusing on the subclasses before working on the classes themselves will cause more work later in the road. The subclasses are supposed to support and round out the classes, but when you have classes like stalker or raider that work so well just about anything, things can get a bit skewed. By fixing/updating the classes first we'll be able to adjust the subclasses to better support the mundane gaming experience. 

QuoteMain guild review/overhaul (Producer Team)

I wouldn't worry about it too much.  We have nearly all the work done for the subclasses. For the above, we are still talking among the Producers if the current classes are fulfilling the needs that A) they were put in place to address in combination with B) what the vision is for the current set of Producers.  So not really what I posted before about Guilds.

I like the idea of past events giving skill perks to classes/sub-class combos but I feel that having the initial boost to skills be on a set ratio with age.
Start your human crafter out at 25, crafting skills start at apprentice. 40 years old the start at journeyman.. Start you PC out at 55-60 your crafting skills start out at advance (never capped out tho)

On a slight tangent then, I still believe making mundane options more enticing is really the best way to combat mage popularity :

I would love to be able chose any mundane skills I want and allow me to train them to max for the following karma:

Bonus if instead of skill you can also allow resistances, stat bonus or class bonuses (heavy combat learning bonus, stalker stam regen, etc)

• 1 karma for 2 skills
• 2 karma for 3 skills
• 3 karma for 4 skills.

Quote from: Dresan on June 14, 2023, 07:03:57 PM
On a slight tangent then, I still believe making mundane options more enticing is really the best way to combat mage popularity :

I would love to be able chose any mundane skills I want and allow me to train them to max for the following karma:

Bonus if instead of skill you can also allow resistances, stat bonus or class bonuses (heavy combat learning bonus, stalker stam regen, etc)

• 1 karma for 2 skills
• 2 karma for 3 skills
• 3 karma for 4 skills.

It'd be really nice if karma was actually still used to reflect roles that were MORE DIFFICULT TO PLAY, not EASIER TO PLAY correctly, because when it's the first, it makes sense as a measure of staff trust. As the latter it becomes a measure of staff favortism, and screws over players who have less of it in the general passage of gameplay, systematically. Thus as a knock on effect only making the game harsher for newbies and easier for veterans. And since it's always veterans that are drilling to make the game harder, that seems like something that is not only unfair to newer players but also likely to backfire at the end of the day.

Quote from: dumbstruck on June 14, 2023, 07:36:57 PM
It'd be really nice if karma was actually still used to reflect roles that were MORE DIFFICULT TO PLAY, not EASIER TO PLAY correctly.

I'm curious which karma restricted roles you think are inappropriately placed on the scale using that measure? This is generally what we are trying to achieve, with a balance between higher karma roles being more difficult to play correctly but also with more potential for damage when they are played incorrectly.

All the magick ones, for starts. Dwarves are under-karma costed as well.

Quote from: Usiku on June 14, 2023, 07:42:26 PM

Quote from: dumbstruck on June 14, 2023, 07:36:57 PM
It'd be really nice if karma was actually still used to reflect roles that were MORE DIFFICULT TO PLAY, not EASIER TO PLAY correctly.

I'm curious which karma restricted roles you think are inappropriately placed on the scale using that measure? This is generally what we are trying to achieve, with a balance between higher karma roles being more difficult to play correctly but also with more potential for damage when they are played incorrectly.

It's being flattened and fixed currently but: literally every extended subguild that was mundane.

I'm not sure how far the IDB on the new iteration goes back but if it accesses 2011 era convos, you'll see the specifics of convo on it then. Like people wanted to put it in as something to make your character more powerful, not because it was more difficult to play correctly, and some people had reservations then about it, and how it and karma as understood played together. (much like the karma timers, and a number of other things which eventually proved to be problematic but are aside the point in this specific instance)

So what I was getting at in the above you were quoting was me trying to say: please don't do another thing that makes being a mundane pc who is for the most part in IC terms more or less "normal" something hard for new players to access and advantageous for veteran players, when those veteran players who would and will stand to gain the most (literally doubling in Dresan's proposal, which is what I was referring to explicitly) the number of "benefits" a karma player could acquire in a totally mundane sphere with mechanical advantage from what a new player could even special app for when it's often veteran players (who often have the most karma) who are most of the time pounding a drum for making shit harder.

That making shit harder when you are literally using advantages new players don't have to have an advantage to make it easier than they have it to start with is probably not going to have the intended effect, and just make things MUCH harder for newer players when it doesn't need to be, while karma gating more content that in the case where it's offering simple mechanical advantage and no IC increased difficulty... probably not likely to have the desired effect on new player retention, play for new players either, and simply be one more pocket advantage which has no IC root in being difficult to play properly (is it harder to play someone who regenerates their stamina faster? will karma players who use this advantage to pk newer and lower karma players ever going to get warnings or karma slapped over abusing the advantage to make life miserable for newbies or people who lack it? there's so little evidence of people getting karma slapped for doing stuff to grief other players with other roles it seems unlikely, so why gate this that way).

It's interesting to see that karma has evolved to now include "more potential for damage when they are played incorrectly" on roles, and not just ones that are "more difficult to play correctly" because that seems like it folds in with wanting to use karma on mundane things like people are still looking at kcgp/cgp like a system of advantages people can vie for karma for rather than just letting it literally be a measure of how likely someone is to come in and do something stupid, devastating and really contentious with other players, and it makes me wonder why armageddon.org/help/view/Karma (http://karma%20helpfile)

QuoteAcquiring karma points is not something you should be 'striving towards' as a player

if it's being used as a tally for how powerful a role you can play and not just how tricky or difficult the role you have access is supposed to be.

But that also folds into thoughts shared elsewhere on magick and how back in the day there was a natural balance to those roles in that they gave up utility, versatility, ability to hide what they were unless they were very clever, and more. But yeah, as Badskeelz points out, by that measure, dwarves should definitely be a karma race, and they're not. Hell, if we're going on power AND difficulty to play properly, honestly I think desert elves should be a karma higher to play than touched are. Touched are nearly completely mundane with only a piddly little handful of spells at most, and never the best shit that any guild had to offer combined together, where desert elves are basically wilderness templars as for a base power level, AND have roleplay documentation that they are supposed to be adhering to. Though I realize that that's probably not a super popular opinion. (Though I still think city elves need to be improved in some fashion to be playable even at 0 karma outside of very specific fringe cases).

Sorry, looks like that got a bit more verbose than intended, and if it comes off at all hostile, please understand it's not intended, I have very strong feelings, and I've been told that when expressing very strong feelings has come off hostile when not intended in the past, and it's definitely not intended here. Passionate, not angry. :D

After a while nothing is really hard to play, its more a question of how fun you find it to play.  :)

What I am proposing is a more interesting mundane role option that would still require a level of trust from staff. Its not really about hard or easy, and even compared to mage options at that those karma levels, it would not really be that powerful.

More mundane characters is a benefit to newbies vs hidden/rogue magickers everywhere, because they are more likely to stick around you, RP with you and more importantly show neat things/secrets that make the game easier to play in the future.

Now all that said, I am hoping slipknife/mountaineer/outdoors man gets old infiltrator level of high advanced sneak/hide.  ;D

Quote from: Dresan on June 14, 2023, 09:08:37 PM
After a while nothing is really hard to play, its more a question of how fun you find it to play.  :)

What I am proposing is a more interesting mundane role option that would still require a level of trust from staff. Its not really about hard or easy, and even compared to mage options at that those karma levels, it would not really be that powerful.

More mundane characters is a benefit to newbies vs hidden/rogue magickers everywhere, because they are more likely to stick around you, RP with you and more importantly show neat things/secrets that make the game easier to play in the future.

Now all that said, I am hoping slipknife/mountaineer/outdoors man gets old infiltrator level of high advanced sneak/hide.  ;D

I get that, but if we're trying to add mundane options that are specifically karma locked, I feel like that would be a place to let people app in as nobles and merchant house family members. aka someone who can't just put your ass in jail and turn the whole city military on you in 2 seconds and kill you publicly with no repercussions whatsoever, but are still (seemingly) trusted roles. And not just trusted roles but ones that people have actively lamented the lack of already. Rather than just adding some random skills on your sheet as an advantage that new players would lack.

Or even just a version of what you are proposing that has a hard cap of 2 things and is good for anyone with 0 karma to app in as as a 1 karma role. If you want to grow the playerbase, game design decisions should be made with an eye toward the play experience of new players you are trying to bring in, not just the people who already have massive advantage not only in in game knowledge, race and subguild access, and rapport with both one another and years of interaction with favored or disfavored staff members. (in my opinion, of course)

Quote from: dumbstruck on June 14, 2023, 09:33:59 PM
stuff

I disagree with you. You seem to equate difficulty to fun. Its really not.

Karma roles are usually more powerful and they are more easily abusable. The difficulty is related to the knowledge required to play them properly, so you aren't seeing smart giants or Tolkien desert elves. However, from a setting perspective there is potentially no roleplay difference between a karma 1 touched magicker and karma 3 magicker. The only difference is the level of power and ease of abuse.

I get you don't like the idea that more powerful roles are karma locked putting a 'newbie' at some sort of perceived disadvantage but its tough beans, this is working as intended. The only disadvantage I see to newbies is the one that occurs when too many people are playing mage roles and are off together on plots of high magick and adventure which the newbie cannot easily join as a mundane. Hence why it might make sense to make mundane roles for veteran either more convenient or give them some more mundane variety as my idea intended to do.   

I do find it rather funny you want to karma lock role calls, given your opinion. However, even though the staff does very likely take karma into account I do believe there are still some roles there open for someone who might have little or no karma but instead have a couple good well RP characters under their belt. Perhaps your definition of newbie is different from mine, but I would rather these rolecalls be open to everyone instead of karma locked.

I don't. On any of that.

I don't equate difficulty to fun.

I don't believe that noble or other such roles should be "karma locked" (and in fact I suggested that if YOUR suggestion were implemented it be done in such a way as to make it accessible to new players by making it a 1 karma thing if you MUST make mundane roles karma based even when they have no documentation based reason why they should be more difficult to play properly). In fact, I've been suggesting for months that those roles should be open to everyone with a 'role application' request with a reasonable cap of 2-3 in each house like desert elves are.

In fact, the only reason why it was even suggested was as a compromise of you wanting to make these mundane roles with no documented reason they should be more difficult as a special, karma locked thing, because they are existing mundane roles that people have been clamoring to see more of (even just 2 roles in each GMH that can sell that way every player in the game isn't stuck dealing with 1 player's playtimes to deal with an entire GMH).

Literally, check my post history. You'll find at least 4, probably half a dozen or more posts on it from me in the last 6 months.

I'm personally curious why it is you want to make these extra roles that are karma locked and have no documented reason why they are more difficult but are karma locked only because it confers advantages to long term players rather than being a role that requires special trust to understand and respect the setting.

I didn't mean literal physical damage.. I meant more like.. screw things up in game, cause a big mess, ruin plots in ways they shouldn't be ruined, abuse specific powerful skills, break immersion etc.

We have no plans to make things harder and more inaccessible for new players and karma will never be used as a currency with which you can 'buy' bumps and extra things because that isn't what it is for.

Quote from: Usiku on June 15, 2023, 04:46:51 AM
I didn't mean literal physical damage.. I meant more like.. screw things up in game, cause a big mess, ruin plots in ways they shouldn't be ruined, abuse specific powerful skills, break immersion etc.

My apologies, I misunderstood, and that does make more sense read that way. Sometimes I am too literal. Thank you for the clarification.