Armageddon General Discussion Board

So this is more a post I wanted to make to try and get an idea of other people's views/opinions on stats at character gen. Personally I feel significantly demoralized when I make a new character and both of my stat rolls are bad. Even though I haven't been playing the game for long, I've 100% experienced what the game is like with and without good stats, and the difference is easily noticable and impactful, even with stuff like endurance and ending up with ~50%~ less/more hp.

What do people think about stat rolls? Do people think that people should be able to improve their stats through play? What do people usually do if they roll a bad-statted combat character? How do people feel about combat characters being a little MAD (Multi-ability dependant) compared to other character types? Just generally want to get an idea of what people think, as personally I find it really hard to find the enthusiasm to play a character with poorly rolled stats.

The question isn't how we can make stats feel better, it's how can we make the game feel less dependent on stats.

That's a MUCH harder problem to solve, though, so I don't know if my input here is going to be that great.

Quote from: HazelHomewrecker on February 15, 2023, 08:49:34 AM
The question isn't how we can make stats feel better, it's how can we make the game feel less dependent on stats.

That's a MUCH harder problem to solve, though, so I don't know if my input here is going to be that great.

I'd much rather prefer it if everyone started with similar stats and then raised stats similarly to skills, maybe different skills having different stats associated with them that would raise when you riased said skill. Having your stats permenantly decided from character creation in a long-term game about progress and development doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me and has a pretty big impact when you make a new character and type "score" for the first time.

Don't forget that depending on your age, your characters stats are actually improving over time. Most PC's are, they just don't live long enough to see it.

Quote from: Doublepalli on February 15, 2023, 08:55:08 AM
Don't forget that depending on your age, your characters stats are actually improving over time. Most PC's are, they just don't live long enough to see it.

I'm aware of this, but having to wait irl time for that to happen alongside knowing that some people just start amazing and get even better doesn't really feel like much of a decent system.

The ironic part is my last few of my preferred style characters, stalkers, has been passable or horrible stats.

I make a crafter, AMAZING stats.

It's like some sick joke.

I don't think there is any problem with the current way the game implements stats per say.

Stats should matter. It gives the game some important dimensions and gameplay.  Getting to prioritize stats over another basically should resolve most problem.

The problem the game has had is that one stat: strength matters a lot more than the others in terms of combat effectiveness. Having an agile character, or having a high endurance character should open new dimensions of play with different combat styles but it doesn't because e-two and high strength are so overpowered at the human and dwarf levels of exceptional strength.

I think the game is moving to fix/balance these existing issues with the next wave of combat changes.

After that the only thing I would recommend is looking into giving players who only choose to prioritize one stat a bit of a bonus when rolling that one stat. After all, there are already mudane ways to resolve low stats but will agree their half-life after taken and cost should probably get reviewed at some point in the future mostly to promote more viable money sinks.

Quote from: Dresan on February 15, 2023, 09:13:18 AM
I don't think there is any problem with the current way the game implements stats per say.

Stats should matter. It gives the game some important dimensions and gameplay.  Getting to prioritize stats over another basically should resolve most problem.

The problem the game has had is that one stat: strength matters a lot more than the others in terms of combat effectiveness. Having an agile character, or having a high endurance character should open new dimensions of play with different combat styles but it doesn't because e-two and high strength are so overpowered at the human and dwarf levels of exceptional strength.

I think the game is moving to fix/balance these existing issues with the next wave of combat changes.

After that the only thing I would recommend is looking into giving players who only choose to prioritize one stat a bit of a bonus when rolling that one stat. After all, there are already mudane ways to resolve low stats but will agree their half-life after taken and cost should probably get reviewed at some point in the future mostly to promote more viable money sinks.

I'm fine with the idea of people having different stats. In a perfect world, every character would have one good stat, two average stats and one bad stat. But I think the main issue I have is the sheer range of stats and how it impacts you. Like you can roll a character with three EG/EX stats and then your very next character can have a second VG stat and that's it. The range is pretty massive and there's no real mundane way to raise your stats once you roll them (and yes I'm gonna say that waiting irl months for your stats to increase doesn't count)

My worst luck too is on spec apps, I'll wait a month to get approved or to play because my previous homie is still alive.

Jump into my OMG AMAZING CLASS, and be physically handicapped.

It's all randomized so it's not really something that can be controlled. Some classes give bonuses to specific stats and sometimes you roll a significantly low number that even the bonus doesn't help. That's just how playing a game like this is.

If the stat window were halved, that might be less impactful.

I mean, we ARE suppose to be playing a hardy bunch of humanoids surviving in a harsh desert environment.

Other than the obscene flat damage strength stat gives, currently stats aren't really that game changing.

Running down the list:
- High HP from endurance is my favorite but i've had PCs with around 90~ hp survive a long time.
-For stealth, skill is king, in terms of miscreant you won't notice much of a stealth performance difference between mul, dwarf, human and elf at max skill and some gear. For lower level of skill, I would argue it all sucks equally but your millage might vary.
- Agility for combat has been seen as demerit by many vets for a long time. Maybe the new agility damage update changes that perception a bit, but you still won't be two shoting anyone with agility alone.

I can keep going but honestly I think once the combat updates go ahead, stats will really matter a lot less than skill.

Quote from: Dresan on February 15, 2023, 12:01:35 PM
Other than the obscene flat damage strength stat gives, currently stats aren't really that game changing.

Running down the list:
- High HP from endurance is my favorite but i've had PCs with around 90~ hp survive a long time.
-For stealth, skill is king, in terms of miscreant you won't notice much of a stealth performance difference between mul, dwarf, human and elf at max skill and some gear. For lower level of skill, I would argue it all sucks equally but your millage might vary.
- Agility for combat has been seen as demerit by many vets for a long time. Maybe the new agility damage update changes that perception a bit, but you still won't be two shoting anyone with agility alone.

I can keep going but honestly I think once the combat updates go ahead, stats will really matter a lot less than skill.

I think Wisdom plays into stealth though.  Every stalker for well ever I've had has ended up with max scan due to E l n l s l e, rinse and repeat IG day in day out.

Only thing I've noticed is that elves no matter what, if they have stealth maxed, I can't see their shadow reliability.  But let a dwarf, a human or anything else try to hide and I see them each and everytime.

Elves seem to have whatever makes stealth literally unfindable.

Stats are fine as is - they're a random factor that can lead your character down a number of different roads and cause a number of different RP decisions based on how they were rolled. 

To normalize and equalize stats the way it was suggested would be to lose a lot of the luster from the world.  Not everyone is Conan.  Not every concept is going to be King Shit of Fuck Mountain.  That variance creates and removes opportunities in equal measure on both sides of the spectrum.

Life is cheap.  You can make a new character.  Awesome stats don't mean you're going to survive.

Quote from: Brisket on February 15, 2023, 03:59:02 PM
Stats are fine as is - they're a random factor that can lead your character down a number of different roads and cause a number of different RP decisions based on how they were rolled. 

Life is cheap.  You can make a new character.  Awesome stats don't mean you're going to survive.

I personally would be fine if stats were not a thing.  I think they're fun but I agree it's demotivating if they're low in some areas and it's totally random that you might feel disappointed about a character you were otherwise looking forward to.  The answer people will give is that it doesn't matter, just enjoy the game.  But by that logic if they don't matter, it shouldn't matter to start everyone of the same race with the same capability.

It's a bit of a tabletop kind of situation but tabletops are much different than coded video games.

I'd be open to -

No stat rolls below average.
No stats everyone starting at the same stats and characters being skill based.  But that would require some alterations to the meta I think.

Quote from: Krath on February 15, 2023, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: Brisket on February 15, 2023, 03:59:02 PM
Stats are fine as is - they're a random factor that can lead your character down a number of different roads and cause a number of different RP decisions based on how they were rolled. 

Life is cheap.  You can make a new character.  Awesome stats don't mean you're going to survive.

good stats end up having absolutely no bearing on character survival if you just roleplay your character and train your craft consistently (assumedly as part of usual rp).

i do see the argument that it would be nice if there were no stats that gave negatives (rather than averages. average str on an elf for instance may not be that good). it's kind of weak and lame and catering to players over reality but also nobody wants negatives they don't choose when making a character. and this is a game and people are here to have fun. as long as it's an equal playing field in mechanical fairness, due to pvp.

edit: nm i don't like that actually

When I roll a PC with excellent stats I typically end up finding reasons to like the PC because the stats are too good.

When I roll a PC with horrible stats I usually end up having a blast and liking the character despite the shit stats. Red shirt baby!

From a combat character perspective, stats are changing a bit with the recent weapon/style updates.  To be effective, since like the year 2000 (is that when they turned off 10 rolls in char gen?), you only needed one thing:  High str.  Even if all your other stats were dumpster fires, you could at least contribute with high str. Extremely Good or Exceptional human Str was the only baseline, really(Vg really doesn't cut the cheese with the 'old' combat system).   These changes will change the game to make it so you probably need to have 2 good stats to be a 'contributor', at least that's my concern.  In all cases you want all four stats to be kinky high to be the guy punching mekillots (if that's the goal of your character).  So this is adding a bit more pressure for high stats for combat rolls.

For crafters, in which I have MUCH less experience but still some, there was a stat that was king and I don't think that's changed.  You can still one stat them, though like combat roles, more stats in the other three still help a lot.

On the other hand, digging through the changes that were implemented while I was gone, it looks like some bug fixes were done to make the rolls finally obey the priority you set, so that really helps.  And I think I was around when they 'upped the min' a bit.  All in all, I'd say its precarious as to where stats sit in the balance but overall I get more enjoyment from the randomness than feeling like punished Kryos.  In conclusion, I'd say unless you overhaul the whole char gen system, stats might need a little polish but are 'close', and I'd highly suggest to leave them random.  You don't know how much you miss the RNG of stat rolling in a reasonable way until you are forced to used point buy.

I don't think stats need less impact.  Stats are a big part of pretty much every 'rpg' character aside from pure storytelling ones...and even there they usually have some system of determining the capabilities of your character.

I don't mind the idea of there being various ways of customizing your stats: random vs point buy, where random has more potential but more risk, and point buy can be customized to make sure you get exactly what you want without giving you enough to degrade the value of stats.  Template, where you have set stats that you assign.  Whatever, I'm okay with alternatives to randomization, as long as they make sense from a design perspective.

I will say that some of my coolest moments, looking back, are: the -struggle- to keep those wondrous-statted characters alive while simultaneously trying to stay involved in things in the game enough to enjoy it, and as permadeath games make you do, failing at it.  And the -struggle- to make an unnotable character notable in any other way possible and succeeding.  The latter is perhaps even better simply because you can have low expectations, and end up surpassing by far the expectations you'd have for a far more 'meta' character.

Saw 80 hp's on a heavy combat and definitely thought to myself, "and suicide isn't an option,  what a punishment of a past time."  To those that seem to be under the opinion that stat don't matter, please put me in touch with your Dealer.  I can't see myself getting excited to play a pc that takes longer than 60 seconds, while sleeping, to restore 1 hp.  Let alone the unmitigated shit show of a slog that will be for a heavy combat grind.  Sure maybe pc stats ultimately don't matter, but my time does to me at least. To which, there is a DIRECT correlation.  Sit and hope nothing tries to kill me for thirty minutes, or go play literally anything else.

The impact stats have on combat is bonkers. Hence the impact stats have on any sort outdoors combat pc is vastly disproportional. It doesn't matter what your skills are, you arn't going to get very far if it takes you 5 minutes to kill a scrab.

If you join a clan? Stats really do stop mattering anywhere outside the sparring ring.

Staff could easily save themselves a stupid amount of work just by narrowing stat differences within a race down to a d4 and give half-giants and dwarves longer pauses between swings.

I think it's worth considering something like a point-buy model for stats, rather than the current system. Or at least have that as an option. Although we have more control over stats than ever before, there is still something a little strange about discovering a character's stats as they enter the game, after already having dreamed up the concept and written the description.

Of all the things I've seen posted here, I will say the one that I see the biggest merit in is just limiting the bad stats, just making it impossible to roll a character with mild muscular dystrophy or something.

Someone mentioned them "upping the mins". I don't think that happened.  In fact,  I've noticed lower hp rolls on humans primarily lately for the hp and stun numbers.  Stats matter in the beginning of a character primarily and frankly that's when most players are playing characters then die late early to mid of their characters lifespans. So no experiencing the master combat skill levels that end up slightly changing the mold.

If you have sub 90ish hp you risk dying to a single crit fall. One sap from anything with higher stats. One swipe of a claw and fall from a mount. It's a huge difference. I understand the rp is king but so many people focus on pvp and in that case stats matter so much.

Instead of having a 12-point difference (or whatever it is) for a single race, what if it was only a six point different?

What if we renamed stat levels instead and changed nothing else:

good
very good
great
extremely good
excellent
incredible
absolutely incredible
awesome
legendary
godlike

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on February 16, 2023, 10:09:35 AM
What if we renamed stat levels instead and changed nothing else:

good
very good
great
extremely good
excellent
incredible
absolutely incredible
awesome
legendary
godlike

This would solve it - also old players who aren't actually all that good at combat/the game who complain endlessly about stats should calm down, because it agitates the newbies.  Stats matter for the first couple of days and last ten minutes of a character.  Between those two times, your skill is the thing that matters - and 'bad' stats often mean you'll be skilling up faster.

80 hp vs 120 hp is 2-3 hits - try using the flee skill more, you may not be able to sit and facetank every creature if you third/fourth slotted endurance.  You may take longer to kill something if you got a bad strength roll.  It's not a hack and slash mud, being The Best At Combat is not the point.

I only speak of receiving 2 below average or poor stats.  Or of tanking on hp even at average. The very low end of stats are tough to make work.  Poor/below average strength is basically a non combatant until you master multiple different things. (So 10-15 days played? Depending on wisdom).  Flee is a great skill but combat happens so fast most times if you lag even a little/ get reeled you're dead.

Pretty sure narrowing the range just results in increasing the level that everyone still relentlessly complains about.

Quote from: Armaddict on February 16, 2023, 11:09:50 AM
Pretty sure narrowing the range just results in increasing the level that everyone still relentlessly complains about.

As with a lot of code stuff, its people making bad assumptions about how negatively it impacts their PC.  I've had ultimate badasses with below average strength.  I've had total chumps with AI.  It does matter, but it just alters how you should play.

On my dwarf Krull Stonetusk, he had a PC under him named Drie. Drie, clearly, had below average or lower strength. She sucked. She really did. Drie, over the period of 5 IG years of training with Krull, became one of the most deadly, dangerous combatants in the game - all with shitty strength.

Stats do matter.

But they aren't the end all see all.

Enough time and hardwork will turn anyone into a certified bad-ass.

Like my highly successful c-elf miscreant who had poor strength. He couldn't hold a wine bottle in his hand. Think about that. But he could kill and tango with high-str, high-level heavy combatants.

I mentioned my idea before, but..

I wish that on your character's first birthday after they were created, and on their fifth birthday after their character was created, you get to pick any stat and have it increased by one.  This would encourage players to continue to play their character, and would also have a manual choice in what you think your character's progression in their stats would be after practice in game.  Everybody would be entitled to it.

The game already actively discourages risky behavior and encourages longevity above all. I'd much prefer that doesn't happen even more.

There is no stat which matters more to the risk-taking player than wisdom.

It allows you to skill up fast and become competitive with the risk-adverse.

Quote from: Patuk on February 16, 2023, 12:52:51 PM
The game already actively discourages risky behavior and encourages longevity above all. I'd much prefer that doesn't happen even more.

Eh. I'm of the opposite opinion, it barely changes anything and doesn't help or solve any issues. +1 for surviving an RL month and then another a few more RL months is barely a motivator. Especially when after 5 IC birthdays your stats have probably changed already due to age range. Getting rid of karma timers kind of removed any encouragement to 'play it safe' at any point, imo.


However, to add on to what others have said just now:

My longest living combat character had 1 less HP than the minimum amount of HP I considered, as a player, necessary to survive.

My top 3 longest living combat characters, actually, all had one more issue than I was really 'okay' with having. And I'm okay with a glaring weakness to overcome, so that's at least 2 'bad things before' I even started playing.

Conversely, I've spec app'd a character with max racial strength due to his position and experience, etc. I think he died 2-3 days played? All of his stats were randomly top tier. And that's the story with almost any character I've had who started off with really noticeably great stats.

A really huge thing to take out of an earlier post was "bad stats tend to equate to better skill gains." Including stuff you can't see.

Unless you're playing an elf with ~good or less strength prior to the etwo change, or an extremely high stat character in a very fringe set of circumstances that all align correctly (incorrectly?), you are going to be fine when it comes to stats and combat.

The only other issue I've seen in the thread is low hp, which is solvable by prioritizing endurance.

Disclaimer: you may not be the best, however, without being very lucky or putting time into it. This is a standard game mechanic.
(edited for proofing)

Devil's advocate, I am curious about how much time players spend not playing between suiciding accidental deaths of PCs because of bad stats accidents and waiting on approval.

And also how much staff time is wasted approving apps for characters with really low stats that die quickly.

Here's some baselines ...

below average or less strength on a combat char ... without an enormous amount of  twinking you will not be  able to do more than tickle, assuming you can even get past their armor. Your hits will glance off more than not. For a long, long time. This  is somewhat mitigated with a spear and it's high armor-piercing factor. But not a lot.

Below 92 hp on any climbing character puts you at risk of death with any failed climb. And the way climb is so random, you will still fall sometimes even at master. A 3 room fall does about 93 damage. So if you fall from that height at 92 hp ... mantishead.

Below avg or less wisdom - 90+ minute skill timers mean you'll be less effective at 90 days played than most everyone else with higher wisdom. Unless you cheese it and only log in, get your twink on, then log right back out and go play Valheim.

Quote from: Patuk on February 16, 2023, 12:52:51 PM
The game already actively discourages risky behavior and encourages longevity above all. I'd much prefer that doesn't happen even more.

Gonna echo this.

I think a lot of the push to make the game world safer comes from how punishing it is to start new characters over. If you want player support for a harsher world, the very first thing you should do is make death less OOCly punishing.

Quote from: Miradus on February 16, 2023, 01:29:45 PM

Here's some baselines ...

below average or less strength on a combat char ... without an enormous amount of  twinking you will not be  able to do more than tickle, assuming you can even get past their armor. Your hits will glance off more than not. For a long, long time. This  is somewhat mitigated with a spear and it's high armor-piercing factor. But not a lot.

Below 92 hp on any climbing character puts you at risk of death with any failed climb. And the way climb is so random, you will still fall sometimes even at master. A 3 room fall does about 93 damage. So if you fall from that height at 92 hp ... mantishead.

Below avg or less wisdom - 90+ minute skill timers mean you'll be less effective at 90 days played than most everyone else with higher wisdom. Unless you cheese it and only log in, get your twink on, then log right back out and go play Valheim.

These 'baselines' are not supported by my experience with the game, or the experience of several others posting in this thread.  These stated 'baselines' are why newbies fear a stat that's labeled as 'below average' when, without a range that allows for 'below average' average has no real meaning.

Quote from: mansa on February 16, 2023, 12:42:53 PM
I mentioned my idea before, but..

I wish that on your character's first birthday after they were created, and on their fifth birthday after their character was created, you get to pick any stat and have it increased by one.  This would encourage players to continue to play their character, and would also have a manual choice in what you think your character's progression in their stats would be after practice in game.  Everybody would be entitled to it.

Maybe it's just a scewed perspective from me, but I would much rather characters start with much lower stats but then more regularly be able to bump them up and shape their character. Rather than the majority of the character's attribute progression be front-loaded.

Quote from: Kavrick on February 16, 2023, 01:37:22 PM

Quote from: mansa on February 16, 2023, 12:42:53 PM
I mentioned my idea before, but..

I wish that on your character's first birthday after they were created, and on their fifth birthday after their character was created, you get to pick any stat and have it increased by one.  This would encourage players to continue to play their character, and would also have a manual choice in what you think your character's progression in their stats would be after practice in game.  Everybody would be entitled to it.

Maybe it's just a scewed perspective from me, but I would much rather characters start with much lower stats but then more regularly be able to bump them up and shape their character. Rather than the majority of the character's attribute progression be front-loaded.

The issue with it is you get people gamifying statgains, rather than just playing a role.  And its a game about playing a role, even if your role isn't Conan the Barbarian.

edit: I want to be clear to you also Kavrick, and any other newbies - the people making bold claims about 'poot strength means you can never do damage!!!' are wrong.  I'm not saying you can walk out and reel-lock a scrab with a poor strength stalker elf, but there are things you can fight and there are IC ways to improve.  That's part of the journey.  Part of the story.  Part of playing that role.

Quote from: HammerofJericho on February 16, 2023, 09:06:10 AM
Someone mentioned them "upping the mins". I don't think that happened. 

Was me, and you're right.  Turns out it was emphasizing the possibility of at least one good stat, and most likely two 'better' ones, not lifting the min bar.

Its funny, this thread shows that the players are taking away several different positions about the impact and importance of stats.  Unless staff let us 'pull back the curtain' and go with logs and deep examples to disabuse strange notions or reinforce others we'll just end up continuing the circles that are currently being discussed:  some more earnestly or politely than others.  With that in mind I'd stick with my first guns:  they're just about right. 

Games like WoW or 5E go for homogenization, dumbing down, and pandering to the most players possible with the least depth  and difference possible.  Others have taken this route before and the path it sets those games on is predictable.  Good in the short term, but the bell tolls.  I'd rather Arm keep its distinctness, even if it is modified or improved upon in ways and RNG stats are part of that, long as they are 'fair'.

But for the OP I'd like to add that yes, when asking for certain roles and coming out of Chargen with quad average when you want to be Conan in that role:  that is a sucky place to be.

I've always thought that stats should just matter less. Like they still exist, but the bonuses and penalties you get from them are halved from what they are now. I don't normally like random elements for character creation, but I think if they were just a lot less impactful (either good or bad) it'd be more palatable. Maybe even kinda fun. Having a stat that's "Very poor" agility on your sheet would be a lot more appealing to role play if it didn't come with the inability to hold more than two things in your inventory.

That is, again, a bit of an overstatement of what actually happens unless you dumpstat agility on an older half-giant.

Quote from: Brisket on February 16, 2023, 01:56:13 PM
That is, again, a bit of an overstatement of what actually happens unless you dumpstat agility on an older half-giant.

What if you didn't dumpstat, and still can only hold three?

Lets not play blame the player.

Honestly after reading a lot of the responses here, it's a little bit of a mixed topic. I do understand both sides. I'm not personally someone who wants to roll a god character every time, usually I'm happy if I have one good stat, two 'ok' stats (like AA to VG) and then one bad stat (P to A, Very poor is pretty much always an awful experience).

I do understand the idea of 'that's just how the dice drop, deal with it' concept but I guess personally in a game where you're encouraged to play out a long-lived character and not intentionally die or anything, being saddled with something you had no power over does feel kinda sucky.

it really seems like people just don't like being told they have bad stats, even if they have absolutely no idea of the code or mechanics behind those stats. this pretty clearly shows that veterans who have no idea how code works very directly affects the play of new players who weren't worried about this before.

one option would be to be completely transparent with how code works. people are going to 'game' if they want to game. everyone has a level playing field so they can focus on roleplay. give everyone the same understanding of how stats work, how game mechanics work, and i'd wager bugs/exploits would be more quickly reported as well because the majority of the playerbase would know when things are not working.

there are bugs for stats/combat that have literally been exploited for rl years by players on this game (not accusing anyone in this thread specifically) that only get found out by the majority of player population when there's an update or someone complains about it publicly elsewhere loud enough. sometimes these bugs are exploited by players that have no idea they things are not working as intended (i have 100% done this: see elf hidden running, which I thought was coded and had fails/successes so only used rarely). those are huge drawbacks to the current opaque system, which really unfairly favors people that are ignorant of code and ignorantly exploiting it, or willing to cheat in a multiplayer game until someone stumbles upon that bug who knows it's a bug and reports it... and then also only when it is addressed, which means it's found out and reported at a time when it is a priority amongst all the things happening in arm.

i also think people would mostly stop worrying so much about stats if they saw how little it mattered most of the time, except in rare fringe cases, and mostly when you're first starting off.

although i do like idea from Kavrick to conform with RPGs that start you off low and let you raise your stats over time, as opposed to those that start you off with full stats that gradually adjust over time due to age (and maybe after randomly finding a 'skill tome' or whatever you want to call it). i thought about that a while and starting off even shittier, even if everyone does, seems kinda unfun, too. it would require a massive game rebalance.

Quote from: mansa on February 16, 2023, 12:42:53 PM
I mentioned my idea before, but..

I wish that on your character's first birthday after they were created, and on their fifth birthday after their character was created, you get to pick any stat and have it increased by one.  This would encourage players to continue to play their character, and would also have a manual choice in what you think your character's progression in their stats would be after practice in game.  Everybody would be entitled to it.

This is a pretty cool thing.

My thought is that stats do matter. And it does feel great to roll a character with fantastic stats. There'd be a loss if everything was homogenized, I think. But then again, it can feel crushing to get a character who just sucks on the stat roll. So minimizing the bad and still allowing for some randomization would be good.

And maybe address the fringe circumstances. Let HGs carry 6 things who cares. Elf stuff may be fixed with the combat change, so willing to wait. But the little things that are more oocly punishing than roleplay hooks.

Quote from: LindseyBalboa on February 16, 2023, 03:16:03 PM
And maybe address the fringe circumstances. Let HGs carry 6 things who cares. Elf stuff may be fixed with the combat change, so willing to wait. But the little things that are more oocly punishing than roleplay hooks.

I'm down with that, a base carry limit of like 4 would solve pretty much the only real issue caused by dumpstats.

I'm just not sure who these veteran players are that "don't unstated the mechanics of combat". My gripe with stats is experienced and due in part to some bad luck of mine over my characters rolls. Poor on an elf that becomes a badass as I said after 10-15 days played yeah they can keep up.  But most people don't live that long or survive things because of a low roll versus having that extra 10-15 hp or whatever. I'm not trying to scare be players away I'm being honest about an experience that I've repeatedly had over 20 years of playing this game.

Quote from: HammerofJericho on February 16, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
I'm just not sure who these veteran players are that "don't unstated the mechanics of combat". My gripe with stats is experienced and due in part to some bad luck of mine over my characters rolls. Poor on an elf that becomes a badass as I said after 10-15 days played yeah they can keep up.  But most people don't live that long or survive things because of a low roll versus having that extra 10-15 hp or whatever. I'm not trying to scare be players away I'm being honest about an experience that I've repeatedly had over 20 years of playing this game.

I'll be honest, I find it hard to buy the whole "yeah but you can make up for it with skills," Even if your character manages to get their skills up, someone with the same skills as you but with better stats is still going to be better than you. The thing is about stats is that it's not only your starting advantage but it's also your end-potential. A master swordsman with good strength is going to be worse than a master swordsman who has exceptional strength.

I'm not concerned with being the best in my position on this topic.  I just want to be able to take risks and have a decent chance at surviving them. I don't like sitting around and such. Or grinding combat stats like mad just to be able to survive slightly better.

Quote from: Kavrick on February 16, 2023, 04:46:41 PM

Quote from: HammerofJericho on February 16, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
I'm just not sure who these veteran players are that "don't unstated the mechanics of combat". My gripe with stats is experienced and due in part to some bad luck of mine over my characters rolls. Poor on an elf that becomes a badass as I said after 10-15 days played yeah they can keep up.  But most people don't live that long or survive things because of a low roll versus having that extra 10-15 hp or whatever. I'm not trying to scare be players away I'm being honest about an experience that I've repeatedly had over 20 years of playing this game.

I'll be honest, I find it hard to buy the whole "yeah but you can make up for it with skills," Even if your character manages to get their skills up, someone with the same skills as you but with better stats is still going to be better than you. The thing is about stats is that it's not only your starting advantage but it's also your end-potential. A master swordsman with good strength is going to be worse than a master swordsman who has exceptional strength.

if they started and ended up equal in every single other way over the course of getting to a master weapon skill, including all hidden stats/skills and modifiers, then yes that one thing would matter. i doubt that's every happened or will happen.

but also this is just describing how like games work? idk.

Quote from: Kavrick on February 16, 2023, 04:46:41 PM

Quote from: HammerofJericho on February 16, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
I'm just not sure who these veteran players are that "don't unstated the mechanics of combat". My gripe with stats is experienced and due in part to some bad luck of mine over my characters rolls. Poor on an elf that becomes a badass as I said after 10-15 days played yeah they can keep up.  But most people don't live that long or survive things because of a low roll versus having that extra 10-15 hp or whatever. I'm not trying to scare be players away I'm being honest about an experience that I've repeatedly had over 20 years of playing this game.

I'll be honest, I find it hard to buy the whole "yeah but you can make up for it with skills," Even if your character manages to get their skills up, someone with the same skills as you but with better stats is still going to be better than you. The thing is about stats is that it's not only your starting advantage but it's also your end-potential. A master swordsman with good strength is going to be worse than a master swordsman who has exceptional strength.

As LindseyBalboa said, there are so many other factors involved in being of 'equal' skill that its not really a comparison that can ever be made.  What're their agis? What weapons are they using? What is their endurance? What about the various hidden skills?  What about the unhidden skills? Their encumbrance? Their armor? Their fighting style?

And that's ignoring the fact that we can't and shouldn't balance the game around 'would this be even in an exact, perfect Byn sparring environment'.  There are too many other factors, and those factors are the whole roleplay environment which is the point of the game.

Some people are stronger.

Some people are more nimble.

Some people are tougher.

Some people are more clever.

To mute the curve on this would be to lose a lot of the chance and variety that creates interesting stories.

High agility (lower chance to fail combat skills) and high str (shorter fights) both get in the way of skillgains, so I do think these even out a bit in the long run. Super shitty stats are rare enough or easy enough to avoid that they've never been much of an issue for me. You do have some control by prioritization, rerolls, and picking your starting age.

I do with that there were more stat gains when you start out young and age. They do not seem to come up to the same level that they would have been if you had started at an older age.

I'm not sure if HP ever goes up with age. I've had a human that started at 20 with 88hp at below avg endurance. I played him until age 30 or so - endurance went up, but HP never did.

Quote from: Brisket on February 16, 2023, 05:16:26 PM

Quote from: Kavrick on February 16, 2023, 04:46:41 PM

Quote from: HammerofJericho on February 16, 2023, 04:09:03 PM
I'm just not sure who these veteran players are that "don't unstated the mechanics of combat". My gripe with stats is experienced and due in part to some bad luck of mine over my characters rolls. Poor on an elf that becomes a badass as I said after 10-15 days played yeah they can keep up.  But most people don't live that long or survive things because of a low roll versus having that extra 10-15 hp or whatever. I'm not trying to scare be players away I'm being honest about an experience that I've repeatedly had over 20 years of playing this game.

I'll be honest, I find it hard to buy the whole "yeah but you can make up for it with skills," Even if your character manages to get their skills up, someone with the same skills as you but with better stats is still going to be better than you. The thing is about stats is that it's not only your starting advantage but it's also your end-potential. A master swordsman with good strength is going to be worse than a master swordsman who has exceptional strength.

As LindseyBalboa said, there are so many other factors involved in being of 'equal' skill that its not really a comparison that can ever be made.  What're their agis? What weapons are they using? What is their endurance? What about the various hidden skills?  What about the unhidden skills? Their encumbrance? Their armor? Their fighting style?

And that's ignoring the fact that we can't and shouldn't balance the game around 'would this be even in an exact, perfect Byn sparring environment'.  There are too many other factors, and those factors are the whole roleplay environment which is the point of the game.

Some people are stronger.

Some people are more nimble.

Some people are tougher.

Some people are more clever.

To mute the curve on this would be to lose a lot of the chance and variety that creates interesting stories.

If we muted the curve, would anyone put in a special app to have their stats reduced? I very much doubt it.

Quote from: Master Color on February 16, 2023, 05:47:04 PM
If we muted the curve, would anyone put in a special app to have their stats reduced? I very much doubt it.

People regularly play non-combat classes.  People put in to have their karma reduced voluntarily.  People are down to just play roles in this role playing game.

It very much doubt that anyone would ask staff for a reduction in stats because they believed the game needed a better distribution of low statted pc's.

Quote from: Nao on February 16, 2023, 05:22:34 PM
I've had a human that started at 20 with 88hp at below avg endurance. I played him until age 30 or so - endurance went up, but HP never did.

Seems like a bug with the age code.  Ought to submit that for review.

Quote from: Master Color on February 16, 2023, 05:58:37 PM
It very much doubt that anyone would ask staff for a reduction in stats because they believed the game needed a better distribution of low statted pc's.

And yet evidence of people voluntarily choosing suboptimal combat efficiency exists.  And your claim has no evidence save your gut feeling.

Quote from: Brisket on February 16, 2023, 06:00:25 PM

Quote from: Master Color on February 16, 2023, 05:58:37 PM
It very much doubt that anyone would ask staff for a reduction in stats because they believed the game needed a better distribution of low statted pc's.

And yet evidence of people voluntarily choosing suboptimal combat efficiency exists.  And your claim has no evidence save your gut feeling.

Voluntarily choosing suboptimal combat efficiency because...they're choosing to gain in some other area. Whether its a class or something else. No one's just choosing to suck to suck.

Just assign stats from a static pool that gets distributed from a roll to determine whether your first priorirty was high, and thus your last low, or the inverse. Arm's stats system has always been absurd and outdated. There should not be such a degree of randomness. There should be a baseline number of stat points allotted to each race, then a roll to determine their distribution, and then you can apply class/age modifiers afterwards. It is a blemish upon this game that two human characters can come out with AI/EG/VG/EG and another with VG/A/P/AA. It's a failure of game design, and it should change.

How many thousands of characters have waded into the Silt Sea because they rolled G/BA/P/AA? And they were right to do so. It's a broken system. Change the system so that this is not a thing. It's insanity to expect such a wildly unbalanced stat system to function in this day and age. Anyone who defends it is out of their mind, or doesn't understand the most basics of it. Players don't want to be met with the information, upon first entry, that their character will suck forever.

Change that. It's quite possibly the greatest blemish on ArmageddonMUD. Quite a few players have quit this game because they rolled garbage stats and saw how much it mattered. Change this shit. It should have happened fifteen years ago.

This convo comes up about hmm, once a year?

To be honest although Arm was set up like a tabletop it's come a long way since then.  Arm is a video game, MMO type of situation.

Can you imagine if you played WoW and randomly the warlock you picked just got WAY less HP than another warlock just because?

There is a part of me that loves the thrill of stats.  But maybe there should be the option of stats, reroll and then default stats where you can opt for a neutral "good" at everything or at least average at everything.

You can debate it all you want (I'm not much of a code player) but it is, and always has been, demotivating and frustrating to have characters based on a chunk of random happenstance and see that poor rear it's ugly head.

Not to mention stats come after you've built a description, a background etc etc.

So you could be the huge muscular brute of a man, but have poor strength.

Let me spend a karma point or two on a single stat to keep in line with my vision for my character. That way I don't get a crappy agility assassin or brutish axeman who can't carry a hatchet.

Quote from: Bogre on February 16, 2023, 06:58:47 PM
Voluntarily choosing suboptimal combat efficiency because...they're choosing to gain in some other area. Whether its a class or something else. No one's just choosing to suck to suck.

The problem is you viewing it as 'sucking' instead of seeing it as 'a role you're playing' - you can tell a story with all poor stats, and in the end that's the point of the game.  And that's ignoring that people voluntarily dropped karma and various other examples.

(https://i0.wp.com/us-east-1.linodeobjects.com/gunaxin/2014/10/Gimp.jpg)

Truthfully, I've only really felt bad stats the first few weeks of playing a character.


Although I feel the pain when seeing bad stats, it does suck, but in many ways it's just another obstacle. If everything went they way I wanted, this game wouldn't be nearly as fun. In fact it wouldn't be fun for me.

Truly, I'd think there would be a lot of loss of interest if stats were taking away, or even the range was reduced.

I think the fact that you could have just a god like human fighter because they not only lived and learned in short enough time that they didn't become decrepit with old age, but also that they started with great stats to begin with.

And sometimes we just need lackeys. Not everyone needs to be the greatest or the best.

Quote from: Brisket on February 16, 2023, 10:36:47 PM

Quote from: Bogre on February 16, 2023, 06:58:47 PM
Voluntarily choosing suboptimal combat efficiency because...they're choosing to gain in some other area. Whether its a class or something else. No one's just choosing to suck to suck.

The problem is you viewing it as 'sucking' instead of seeing it as 'a role you're playing' - you can tell a story with all poor stats, and in the end that's the point of the game.  And that's ignoring that people voluntarily dropped karma and various other examples.

Sure, show me all those examples of people voluntarily asking for stat drops.

The karma off had a lot of people with seller's remorse, too, and asking for it back at some time later.

I'm not saying you can't tell a story with poor stats. I'm saying it's unlikely someone will opt into it without some gain. You can tell that same story of your downtrodden beggar with great stats.  Sure, some people might ask for a challenge. But how many people do you see complain their stats are too high?

But focusing on the exception case rather than the 95+% of time when people would be better assisted in telling their story by a more survivable character (statwise, etc) and having a more enjoyable time mechanically is tunnel-vision.

Just as a side note, I would like to thank all the replies and the civil discussion on the matter. Honestly I didn't expect this thread to get such attention. As I've said previously, I'm pretty new to the game so it's very insightful to get the views of people who have been playing for much longer than me.

I think I do agree with both sides. You can create good stories with both godlike characters and regular shmos.i personally don't like playing something on the lines of a "main character", I kinda like observing plots and characters around me without being the focus of them. But I guess also as someone who still has a lot of "unknown" when it comes to the game, the idea of playing a particular inept character can be stressful. I'm completely fine with people being better/stronger than me, but perhaps making it so depending on the priority of the stat, the minimum roll is increased. (Making it so your number 1 priority can never be less than good but your last prio stat can still be very poor) might be a nice safety net while still allowing people to have a big range in stats on characters.

I will say, stats do feel like they matter far more for combat than anything else. The new changes to combat seem like they will be lovely and I look forward to them a lot. (Although I do hope halaster decides to make shield/weapon styles be both agi and strengths so you can do rapier + buckler type fighting styles that don't rely on strength).

Again thanks for all the replies, very insightful.

Quote from: Bogre on February 17, 2023, 01:15:04 PM

Quote from: Brisket on February 16, 2023, 10:36:47 PM

Quote from: Bogre on February 16, 2023, 06:58:47 PM
Voluntarily choosing suboptimal combat efficiency because...they're choosing to gain in some other area. Whether its a class or something else. No one's just choosing to suck to suck.

The problem is you viewing it as 'sucking' instead of seeing it as 'a role you're playing' - you can tell a story with all poor stats, and in the end that's the point of the game.  And that's ignoring that people voluntarily dropped karma and various other examples.

Sure, show me all those examples of people voluntarily asking for stat drops.

The karma off had a lot of people with seller's remorse, too, and asking for it back at some time later.

I'm not saying you can't tell a story with poor stats. I'm saying it's unlikely someone will opt into it without some gain. You can tell that same story of your downtrodden beggar with great stats.  Sure, some people might ask for a challenge. But how many people do you see complain their stats are too high?

But focusing on the exception case rather than the 95+% of time when people would be better assisted in telling their story by a more survivable character (statwise, etc) and having a more enjoyable time mechanically is tunnel-vision.

You made the claim that nobody would. I gave examples of times people have.  The way this works is that its your turn to provide evidence outside your gut feeling that you're definitely totally correct with made up numbers.

Play the stats you're given, that's the role - you can become a god tier fighter with mediocre stats, that's a fact.

I knew two players back in the day that had the highest level of Karma and participated in the Karma off.

I still am in contact with both of them, and neither of them play anymore.

When I asked them about it, they told me they did it in hopes it would be a temporary thing, going from 7 to 2 or whatever they did.

Come to find out they regretted it as by the time the new levels kicked in, they still had not got back their previous choices or levels.

I think the max I've ever had is whatever half giant used to be on the old system before I got into it with staff and was kicked down to desert elf territory.

So I only have my experience and what these two players told me who dont play anymore and I know that given the choice again they would have never quit and we would have two awesome players still here kicking around.

I never understood the reasoning behind that karma off, karma is not a finite resource, it's supposed to be staff trust in your play and decisions in the game world.  I think people were looking at it incorrectly back then.

Only reason I bring this up is because people keep bringing it up like it was some massive philanthropical thing, some generous act by a charitable playerbase and I don't feel that way at all from my small sliver of experience of it.

I'm honestly not really sure from this thread what people consider good and bad stats. Are good stats stats that are above average in every category? Because having at least one average seems pretty normal to me. With reroll and reroll undo, I've never ended up with a stat that was 'poor' on both rolls, though I have a couple of times had to consider whether I wanted to give up a very high stat in order to wipe out a 'below average' in the stat I deprioritized. That could just be my experience. Maybe giving a person an option to reroll just one stat instead of rerolling the entire stat pool might help with that, idk.

I'm not going to run a forum search for it, but I do remember a staffer saying that your stats are influenced by your priority order and the main stat of the class you pick. I think you almost have to work at it, or gamble, to end up with a low main stat for the class you picked.

I've seen point buy brought up a few times over the years, and my favorite version was giving the player the option to select between point buy and random stats, where the number of points would only add up to the average stats of a person who chose to gamble and roll stats, and where the buy would be increasingly costly the more you boosted a stat off of average. Though I personally like random stats, I don't think it would hurt to give people more options, including one where they feel they can exercise more control.

Quote from: Pariah on February 18, 2023, 10:52:44 AM
I never understood the reasoning behind that karma off, karma is not a finite resource, it's supposed to be staff trust in your play and decisions in the game world.  I think people were looking at it incorrectly back then.

The reason for the karma off was that the players vocally told the staff to stop approving magicker, sorcerer, mul, and psionicists characters because it didn't represent the coded power levels and the roleplay reactions to having everybody in your surrounding neighbourhood be a magicker in the game world, and since the staff wasn't going to stop approving magickers the players asked to have their karma removed in revolt.

You can read it here: https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,28005.0.html

Quote from: valeria on February 18, 2023, 11:58:20 AM
I'm honestly not really sure from this thread what people consider good and bad stats....

Put plainly, good stats are what allow me to achieve my plan for the character. A sneaky thief? I want high agility. I don't care about strength that much. A stronk brawler? I wanna be strong. I don't care about agility hugely much because I will be wearing heavy armor anyway.

And so forth and so on.

Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. It's your character. Your vision. Your plan.

That's not the extent of what makes a good character though.  The world is richer by having both skilled and unskilled thieves.  By having warriors who wear heavy armor and warriors who wear leather.  By having people who wield a dagger, and people who wield a club.

Just because a few people would prefer to Win every time doesn't mean that's what's best for the game.

Quote from: Brisket on February 18, 2023, 12:51:44 PM
That's not the extent of what makes a good character though.  The world is richer by having both skilled and unskilled thieves.  By having warriors who wear heavy armor and warriors who wear leather.  By having people who wield a dagger, and people who wield a club.

Just because a few people would prefer to Win every time doesn't mean that's what's best for the game.

Win every time? Do you even play Armageddon? you can have AI across the board and some mul is still going to konk you flat with a club, or you'll lose link and fall off your beetle or a storm sends you plunging into the sinkhole or a templar doesn't like your pants and it's to the arena with you.

The good character is by how it's played, not by its stats. Can you be fun with bad stats? Sure. But I can be more fun if I have great stats to survive the mischief I cause. That's the argument.

Quote from: Miradus on February 18, 2023, 12:56:18 PM

Quote from: Brisket on February 18, 2023, 12:51:44 PM
That's not the extent of what makes a good character though.  The world is richer by having both skilled and unskilled thieves.  By having warriors who wear heavy armor and warriors who wear leather.  By having people who wield a dagger, and people who wield a club.

Just because a few people would prefer to Win every time doesn't mean that's what's best for the game.

Win every time? Do you even play Armageddon? you can have AI across the board and some mul is still going to konk you flat with a club, or you'll lose link and fall off your beetle or a storm sends you plunging into the sinkhole or a templar doesn't like your pants and it's to the arena with you.

The good character is by how it's played, not by its stats. Can you be fun with bad stats? Sure. But I can be more fun if I have great stats to survive the mischief I cause. That's the argument.

I think I do agree with this. If you roll good stats, you can still rp your character as having flaws and being bad traits rp wise, but if you roll bad stats you kinda have it thrust upon you to be bad at things.

Quote from: Pariah on February 18, 2023, 10:52:44 AM
When I asked them about it, they told me they did it in hopes it would be a temporary thing, going from 7 to 2 or whatever they did.

Come to find out they regretted it as by the time the new levels kicked in, they still had not got back their previous choices or levels.

It was player choice to reduce their karma.  In respecting such choices, it was never refunded en masse.  When individual players have reached out to us to request their karma be returned that they voluntarily gave up, we have refunded it.  I have only seen a few cases of this, and none in the last several years that I can remember, as most of that happened before I was on Staff.

If anyone wants their voluntarily reduced karma back, have them put in a request.  We tracked reductions on folks accounts so it is quite clear to us who did this and there shouldn't be an issue in most cases in getting it back.

Quote from: Brokkr on February 18, 2023, 01:25:01 PM

Quote from: Pariah on February 18, 2023, 10:52:44 AM
When I asked them about it, they told me they did it in hopes it would be a temporary thing, going from 7 to 2 or whatever they did.

Come to find out they regretted it as by the time the new levels kicked in, they still had not got back their previous choices or levels.

It was player choice to reduce their karma.  In respecting such choices, it was never refunded en masse.  When individual players have reached out to us to request their karma be returned that they voluntarily gave up, we have refunded it.  I have only seen a few cases of this, and none in the last several years that I can remember, as most of that happened before I was on Staff.

If anyone wants their voluntarily reduced karma back, have them put in a request.  We tracked reductions on folks accounts so it is quite clear to us who did this and there shouldn't be an issue in most cases in getting it back.

Awesome, I'll let them know, might get back a two more old players.

Quote from: Miradus on February 18, 2023, 12:56:18 PM

Quote from: Brisket on February 18, 2023, 12:51:44 PM
That's not the extent of what makes a good character though.  The world is richer by having both skilled and unskilled thieves.  By having warriors who wear heavy armor and warriors who wear leather.  By having people who wield a dagger, and people who wield a club.

Just because a few people would prefer to Win every time doesn't mean that's what's best for the game.

Win every time? Do you even play Armageddon? you can have AI across the board and some mul is still going to konk you flat with a club, or you'll lose link and fall off your beetle or a storm sends you plunging into the sinkhole or a templar doesn't like your pants and it's to the arena with you.

The good character is by how it's played, not by its stats. Can you be fun with bad stats? Sure. But I can be more fun if I have great stats to survive the mischief I cause. That's the argument.

I think the issue is that you're making a subjective claim (its more fun to have good status) and saying it as if its objective.  The point of the game isn't your mobkill score or your pk score, its to tell a story within the world as it exists.  Stats don't matter for that, they just influence (somewhat) how the story goes.

Quote from: Brisket on February 18, 2023, 02:55:23 PM

Quote from: Miradus on February 18, 2023, 12:56:18 PM

Quote from: Brisket on February 18, 2023, 12:51:44 PM
That's not the extent of what makes a good character though.  The world is richer by having both skilled and unskilled thieves.  By having warriors who wear heavy armor and warriors who wear leather.  By having people who wield a dagger, and people who wield a club.

Just because a few people would prefer to Win every time doesn't mean that's what's best for the game.

Win every time? Do you even play Armageddon? you can have AI across the board and some mul is still going to konk you flat with a club, or you'll lose link and fall off your beetle or a storm sends you plunging into the sinkhole or a templar doesn't like your pants and it's to the arena with you.

The good character is by how it's played, not by its stats. Can you be fun with bad stats? Sure. But I can be more fun if I have great stats to survive the mischief I cause. That's the argument.

I think the issue is that you're making a subjective claim (its more fun to have good status) and saying it as if its objective.  The point of the game isn't your mobkill score or your pk score, its to tell a story within the world as it exists.  Stats don't matter for that, they just influence (somewhat) how the story goes.

I'm with you Brisket, but counterpoint:

You are trying to tell a story about an escaped gladiator mul. Class Fighter. This is what they have been trained to do. This is what they're good at. You prioritize strength because you want to be big stronk gladiator mul.

Your roll, and reroll, don't put you above "good" strength, and your agility is "below average".

You can tell a story about this. Absolutely. But it is a struggle when your concept is now not matching. Telling people "stats don't matter because we're playing an RPI" is dangerously close to "we don't need a flee skill or combat because we should be roleplaying it out".

Quote from: Riev on February 18, 2023, 03:42:13 PM

Quote from: Brisket on February 18, 2023, 02:55:23 PM

Quote from: Miradus on February 18, 2023, 12:56:18 PM

Quote from: Brisket on February 18, 2023, 12:51:44 PM
That's not the extent of what makes a good character though.  The world is richer by having both skilled and unskilled thieves.  By having warriors who wear heavy armor and warriors who wear leather.  By having people who wield a dagger, and people who wield a club.

Just because a few people would prefer to Win every time doesn't mean that's what's best for the game.

Win every time? Do you even play Armageddon? you can have AI across the board and some mul is still going to konk you flat with a club, or you'll lose link and fall off your beetle or a storm sends you plunging into the sinkhole or a templar doesn't like your pants and it's to the arena with you.

The good character is by how it's played, not by its stats. Can you be fun with bad stats? Sure. But I can be more fun if I have great stats to survive the mischief I cause. That's the argument.

I think the issue is that you're making a subjective claim (its more fun to have good status) and saying it as if its objective.  The point of the game isn't your mobkill score or your pk score, its to tell a story within the world as it exists.  Stats don't matter for that, they just influence (somewhat) how the story goes.

I'm with you Brisket, but counterpoint:

You are trying to tell a story about an escaped gladiator mul. Class Fighter. This is what they have been trained to do. This is what they're good at. You prioritize strength because you want to be big stronk gladiator mul.

Your roll, and reroll, don't put you above "good" strength, and your agility is "below average".

You can tell a story about this. Absolutely. But it is a struggle when your concept is now not matching. Telling people "stats don't matter because we're playing an RPI" is dangerously close to "we don't need a flee skill or combat because we should be roleplaying it out".

Absolutely - in that instance, if its *that* important I'd probably use a Spec App to request that this character be given a stat boost to be in line with the concept.  Communicate with staff and make it a fun story.  They might even throw you some neat hooks or an extra item or something to help make it more real.

Stats *can* matter.  I'm only arguing against the people who seem to be claiming that  unless you have (what they consider to be) good str, agi, and end you simply cannot play the character.  Because that's a silly way of viewing a game that is, primarily, about stories.

Quote from: Brisket on February 18, 2023, 04:59:42 PM

Quote from: Riev on February 18, 2023, 03:42:13 PM

Quote from: Brisket on February 18, 2023, 02:55:23 PM

Quote from: Miradus on February 18, 2023, 12:56:18 PM

Quote from: Brisket on February 18, 2023, 12:51:44 PM
That's not the extent of what makes a good character though.  The world is richer by having both skilled and unskilled thieves.  By having warriors who wear heavy armor and warriors who wear leather.  By having people who wield a dagger, and people who wield a club.

Just because a few people would prefer to Win every time doesn't mean that's what's best for the game.

Win every time? Do you even play Armageddon? you can have AI across the board and some mul is still going to konk you flat with a club, or you'll lose link and fall off your beetle or a storm sends you plunging into the sinkhole or a templar doesn't like your pants and it's to the arena with you.

The good character is by how it's played, not by its stats. Can you be fun with bad stats? Sure. But I can be more fun if I have great stats to survive the mischief I cause. That's the argument.

I think the issue is that you're making a subjective claim (its more fun to have good status) and saying it as if its objective.  The point of the game isn't your mobkill score or your pk score, its to tell a story within the world as it exists.  Stats don't matter for that, they just influence (somewhat) how the story goes.

I'm with you Brisket, but counterpoint:

You are trying to tell a story about an escaped gladiator mul. Class Fighter. This is what they have been trained to do. This is what they're good at. You prioritize strength because you want to be big stronk gladiator mul.

Your roll, and reroll, don't put you above "good" strength, and your agility is "below average".

You can tell a story about this. Absolutely. But it is a struggle when your concept is now not matching. Telling people "stats don't matter because we're playing an RPI" is dangerously close to "we don't need a flee skill or combat because we should be roleplaying it out".

Absolutely - in that instance, if its *that* important I'd probably use a Spec App to request that this character be given a stat boost to be in line with the concept.  Communicate with staff and make it a fun story.  They might even throw you some neat hooks or an extra item or something to help make it more real.

Stats *can* matter.  I'm only arguing against the people who seem to be claiming that  unless you have (what they consider to be) good str, agi, and end you simply cannot play the character.  Because that's a silly way of viewing a game that is, primarily, about stories.

Have substandard stats ever enrichened anyone's story, though?

When people make these characters it's usually with an objective or a goal in mind. To become the best hunter, assassin, soldier, or whatever. In the best case scenario, instead their story becomes about they brood over their wish to git gud and then die the first time they attempt to do the thing they wanted to do. In the much more likely scenario, they get burned out and stop playing, or just suicide because they refuse to play with such garbage stats, and why would they?

True.  But your examples are also like...intro course goals for RP.  We have people who start with a lot richer, less stat oriented goals.

If you are just really interested in code performance, stats are probably more important to you than someone playing the social game primarily.

Quote from: Brokkr on February 18, 2023, 06:19:27 PM
True.  But your examples are also like...intro course goals for RP.  We have people who start with a lot richer, less stat oriented goals.

If you are just really interested in code performance, stats are probably more important to you than someone playing the social game primarily.

I'd argue social players would be losing out, too. Social players tend toward being passive and reactive where as the sorts of players who care about stats tend to be proactive. If you don't have players being proactive and doing things, there's nothing for these social players to socialize over. No raiders terrorizing people, no hunters leading grand hunts into dangerous lands, etc etc. But to turn it on the head, who really benefits from coded stat discrepancies other than twinks who'll just shrug and suicide instead of playing out their poorly statted character? What does the game gain from having poorly statted characters exist?

I only worry about stats with combat oriented characters, like if I am playing a AoD Sergeant or something.

I never worry about them for my social / craft minded PCs. I fully intend for them to squish at first sign of dagger.

Quote from: Brokkr on February 18, 2023, 06:19:27 PM
True.  But your examples are also like...intro course goals for RP.  We have people who start with a lot richer, less stat oriented goals.

If you are just really interested in code performance, stats are probably more important to you than someone playing the social game primarily.

Quote from: WarriorPoet on February 16, 2023, 08:32:15 PM
Let me spend a karma point or two on a single stat to keep in line with my vision for my character. That way I don't get a crappy agility assassin or brutish axeman who can't carry a hatchet.

Thinking on this.  If you spend a spec app for nothing but stat tailoring and got the 'elite array' of 1 Exceptional, 1 Extremely good, 1 Very good, and 1 Good is that 1) fun 2) worth it for the spender 3) within tolerances for power?

In the more recent versions of Arm, I have found that you get 1 good stat almost always, at least.  So if you Str/agi/wis/end first, it'll be in the upper band unless you do some real jank stuff to impact that.  I think this ameliorates ye old quad Poor, which I have had in the old days to a thing of those times.  Have you found this different in the past, say 3 years?

Quote from: Bebop on February 16, 2023, 08:21:39 PM
This convo comes up about hmm, once a year?

To be honest although Arm was set up like a tabletop it's come a long way since then.  Arm is a video game, MMO type of situation.

Can you imagine if you played WoW and randomly the warlock you picked just got WAY less HP than another warlock just because?

There is a part of me that loves the thrill of stats.  But maybe there should be the option of stats, reroll and then default stats where you can opt for a neutral "good" at everything or at least average at everything.

You can debate it all you want (I'm not much of a code player) but it is, and always has been, demotivating and frustrating to have characters based on a chunk of random happenstance and see that poor rear it's ugly head.

I would be horrified if Arm started to normalize things like an MMO.  "Balance" ends up being pretty freaking bland and not very fun, less emergent behavior generation, etc.  Little tweaking to the system?  Sure.

Quote from: Kryos on February 19, 2023, 01:31:56 AM

I would be horrified if Arm started to normalize things like an MMO.  "Balance" ends up being pretty freaking bland and not very fun, less emergent behavior generation, etc.  Little tweaking to the system?  Sure.

I agree.  Part of the FOIC that I love is that in almost any encounter, you never really know the capabilities of the other party in a conflict. I think leveling is more of a net negative than an neutral.  Classes/races/individual PCs should have varying strengths and weaknesses.  IMO, Armageddon should never be "fair" or "balanced". There should be a set of engineerable circumstances where I can win, and a set of circumstances "you" can engineer to where you can win.  The rest of the time, it's a dice role.

Absolutely what FW just said.

Engaging with an opponent who turned out much more badass than you thought they'd be is so much fun. And then going out and "getting gud" to come have that rematch is the stuff of legends. It's where great stories are made.

So much better than the people who will absolutely never engage in conflict unless they can guarantee they will win in any situation.

Quote from: Miradus on February 19, 2023, 04:31:32 PM
Absolutely what FW just said.

Engaging with an opponent who turned out much more badass than you thought they'd be is so much fun. And then going out and "getting gud" to come have that rematch is the stuff of legends. It's where great stories are made.

So much better than the people who will absolutely never engage in conflict unless they can guarantee they will win in any situation.

I'm not really sure what stat discrepancy has to do with this though? if anything, the larger the stat discrepancy, the more of a chance somebody dies in that encounter instead, denying any possibility for there to be more RP to come from it.

Quote from: Miradus on February 19, 2023, 04:31:32 PM
Absolutely what FW just said.

Engaging with an opponent who turned out much more badass than you thought they'd be is so much fun. And then going out and "getting gud" to come have that rematch is the stuff of legends. It's where great stories are made.

So much better than the people who will absolutely never engage in conflict unless they can guarantee they will win in any situation.

I've never let someone who attacked me live, it's a die or kill situation.

Quote from: Pariah on February 20, 2023, 02:20:20 PM

I've never let someone who attacked me live, it's a die or kill situation.

Sometimes it's not always that you let them live, but they escape from the situation anyway.

But if you've never let a wimpy would-be adversary live to come back after you again at a later time, I encourage you to try it. When they are a good roleplayer, I always try to allow for that. Especially if I can maim them in some way to get them to come back for revenge.

Probably 90% of the time when I go after someone in PK, I don't really care if they live or die. It's the fight that is important. Not the outcome.

Quote from: Miradus on February 20, 2023, 02:38:56 PM

Quote from: Pariah on February 20, 2023, 02:20:20 PM

I've never let someone who attacked me live, it's a die or kill situation.

Sometimes it's not always that you let them live, but they escape from the situation anyway.

But if you've never let a wimpy would-be adversary live to come back after you again at a later time, I encourage you to try it. When they are a good roleplayer, I always try to allow for that. Especially if I can maim them in some way to get them to come back for revenge.

Probably 90% of the time when I go after someone in PK, I don't really care if they live or die. It's the fight that is important. Not the outcome.

This.  Remember that we're here to craft stories, not 'win'.  It's somewhat unreasonable that *every* PC you play will *always* be revenge obsessed (no hate if that's your vibe, it just feels more like an OOC decision than an IC one).  Let stories play out, let people get away, let their revenge plots come to fruition, and let yourself lose from time to time.  The game is a lot more fun when you do.

a fresh toon with a particularly amazing statroll changes how you play the game. a lot of riskier things are somewhat off the table because wasting such an amazing statroll to such a stupid splat feels so bad (akin to splatting a specapp)

Quote from: Lotion on February 25, 2023, 09:02:49 PM
a fresh toon with a particularly amazing statroll changes how you play the game. a lot of riskier things are somewhat off the table because wasting such an amazing statroll to such a stupid splat feels so bad (akin to splatting a specapp)

I don't agree with much Lotion says, but this is true.

The above is absolutely true but I also encourage you to just piss away a high value role on one bullshit scene. It is liberating.

Quote from: Miradus on February 20, 2023, 02:38:56 PM

Sometimes it's not always that you let them live, but they escape from the situation anyway.

But if you've never let a wimpy would-be adversary live to come back after you again at a later time, I encourage you to try it. When they are a good roleplayer, I always try to allow for that. Especially if I can maim them in some way to get them to come back for revenge.

Probably 90% of the time when I go after someone in PK, I don't really care if they live or die. It's the fight that is important. Not the outcome.

+1 to pulling knives at the drop of a hat regardless of days played or stats.

+1 to making long-term enemies. but also +1 to the good roleplayer that gets away, or that you get away from, that makes it fun. drinks at the bar, mockery, maiming, blood debts, whatever.

played out vendettas are *chef's kiss*

Quote from: Kavrick on February 15, 2023, 08:43:41 AM
What do people think about stat rolls? Do people think that people should be able to improve their stats through play? What do people usually do if they roll a bad-statted combat character? How do people feel about combat characters being a little MAD (Multi-ability dependant) compared to other character types? Just generally want to get an idea of what people think, as personally I find it really hard to find the enthusiasm to play a character with poorly rolled stats.

While yes, starting a fresh PC and rolling pretty average or poor stats is relatively demoralizing - It isn't end all. I've know of and played PC's with relatively bad stats, and still played them in their roles successfully.

I will say, good stats significantly increase the odds of your character's early survival stages of your playtime, but with enough experience as a player, you learn that base stats aren't all that apply. I've face-rolled PC's with stupidly high stats, in a fight, just because I had more skills at a higher experience than them.

So, just like IRL, there are some people who have better genetics, better reflexes, and a higher IQ than others. Does that mean people give up on their goals and dreams just because there is someone who can do it better? Absolutely not. If they did, humanity wouldn't have advanced beyond cavemen.

One of my recent characters had pretty average stats and she was easily one of my favorites. It sure does feel GREAT when I land some delicious stataroonies though. I feel it chafes the most when you lose a beloved character and then your next PC is atrocious.

Quote from: Gunnerblaster on February 25, 2023, 11:58:44 PM
So, just like IRL, there are some people who have better genetics, better reflexes, and a higher IQ than others. Does that mean people give up on their goals and dreams just because there is someone who can do it better? Absolutely not. If they did, humanity wouldn't have advanced beyond cavemen.

Well said.

"Comparison is the thief of joy."