Armageddon General Discussion Board

Well, the title makes it pretty obvious.  I think it's also probably been discussed before.  But I'm in favour of this kind of code, provided it's tastefully done.  I believe Dragonrealms had an instrument code when I played.  I think it was alright.

Here's my observation.  For some reason, people more readily roleplay (and enjoy roleplaying) when they're simultaneously improving their coded skills.

I am yet a newb, so people please correct me on this, but I have never seen a person roleplaying being shitty and practising something, without something coded going on underneath.  That said, I've never played a bard in Tuluk.

I'd imagine the music code having such things as being able to choose the mood of the music.  Say, a dozen different options for echos that change/improve over time.  Perhaps even music could -affect- people, sending a listener specific echo their way, just for fun.

If somebody else is actively playing music in that room, you could play flute with amos, and this would change the room echos/listener echos yet again.  All depending on which instrument they're playing along with.

A lot of coding and writing echos, but personally, I'd love to see it.

>play guitar
>You can play guitar in the following styles:  cheerful, powerful, tricky, quirky, trying-to-impress-someone, plinking, mellow, angry, somber, depressed, funeral-ific.
>play guitar somber
>You attempt to play a somber tune, but you're so bad at it that you just sound like a wannabe emo squeezing a cat.
>Amos begins playing with you.
>A pitiful wail from a flute cuts through the air, hurting your ears.  It joins in chorus with your cat squeezing, creating a cacophony of unpleasant sounds.

Benefits:
Roleplaying practice enhanced
Gives another actual coded skill to bards
Prevents instant-master-musicians
Music-teacher profession
Encourages people to include instruments/music more often in roleplay.

Costs:
Some lost flexibility.  Emotes would have to fit better with the coded echos.
Yet another skill grind.  (which I think is a benefit, personally)
Difficulty in implementation
If it was implemented -today-, all those current master bards would have to send in requests for skill bumps.

Thoughts?

edit to add:  This is a lot more complicated to code than I'm letting on, and I appreciate that.  Variables to the room echo:  Number of people playing, which instruments they're playing, each persons individual skill at the instrument etc.

I would love to see something like this IG, though only, as you said, were it done tastefully.

I don't think that this is something that really needs to be adjudicated by the code.

In my opinion this would be a whole lot of work for something that, at the end of the day, would only stifle creativity. And what would the purpose be? Just to make a bard's role based on code? I realize the reason for it; to cut back on PCs who just decide one day Hey look, I can play twelve instruments beautifully, but honestly I think its a huge price to pay for a relatively minor problem.

Also, I just want to add that there is a mechanism, at least in Tuluk, for preventing insta-master-musicians. Its called the Circle. I'm not sure exactly how it works, but I think it takes some time for you to be recognized as a master of an instrument. So people can RP being awesome all they want, but they have to wait before they're socially considered awesome.

I also confess that I garner some pleasure out of increasing my coded skills.
*shrug*

You know how much you hate rolling a 33 year old who can't Way more than one person for two attempts at a time before they pass out?

As a group, we struggle with the balance between realism vs. coded benefits.  It's not possible to roll a master hunter at the start (without a special application), but you could hypothetically choose to RP a Circle Apprentice prodigy.  At the same time, you can app this awesome, elite politician noble, but you have to deal with all of the face-losing shame of not having basic skills learned.

Given that I dislike skill grinding and I find good characters being limited by social-focused skills as jarring (or more) than bad people RPing being better than they should be, I'd prefer this system not be implemented.  (Not that I don't think there's room for bards who mess up, but that's something that's better policed by continuing to have high standards for our peers with the RP they choose that provides the most entertainment value for everyone.  And rewarding them for it.)

I voted no.

I have in fact, RP'ed a character as not being skilled in playing an instrument, and paid other PC's to give said character lessons, to stir up RP. I really don't think anyone ever comes into the game deciding that their character can play every instrument as though they were a master musician (unless they have perhaps previously cleared such a concept with staff, like having a child wonder or something). Most folks who play bards pick 1 instrument that they decide their bard is skilled enough with to give performances on, and then they RP out learning the rest of them during their time in the circle.

But the main reason that I voted no, is because for me, being a successful bard honestly has nothing at all to do with how beautifully one emotes their PC's playing is. Being a popular bard, and having people like or dislike your PC's performances is really more dependant on how social and charismatic your bard is, both on and off the stage. Makng your bard interesting and entertaining to other PC's so that they want to RP with you, and want to RP being impressed by your bard's music is really the bread and butter of the role, and I would feel a bit cheapened if someone replaced all that with an echo that told me: You like this guy's music, but that girl over there needs to grind her flute skill up a bit more before you'll like her.

No. Not necessary. And the role of bard has so much potential in it--if you really think that coded effects are missing, then you've missed the majority of what's involved in barding.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 19, 2009, 06:03:52 PM
No. Not necessary. And the role of bard has so much potential in it--if you really think that coded effects are missing, then you've missed the majority of what's involved in barding.

I confessed right away to never playing a bard.
I'd also like to add that this isn't just about bards.  This is for every guild and subguild.  Your warrior or ranger can grind up music skills too, and perhaps play along with the bard later.

As I already said, it is a Do Not Want. All of my musicians have "ground up music skills" via RP. We don't need to ruin an area of the game by requiring yet more grinding.

I guess I'm just a sucker for code.

Perhaps this could go both ways?

You could have a Play command that is functionally similiar to emoting:

> play mandolin (strumming out a chaotic tune)
The quirky bard plays the baobob mandolin, strumming out a chaotic tune.

Or maybe

> play guitar (@ sits quietly on her stool, plucking out a steady rhythm on ~guitar)
The musical bard sits quietly on her stool, plucking out a steady rhythm on an agafari guitar


>stop play
You stop playing your instrument.


That command would have no coded effect unless someone was to assess you while you were playing. Something could be done about singing as well with little change to the code.

> assess bard
You are...
You are...
You find the quality of their musical talent to be: (Poor, Fair, Average, Good, Very Good, Outstanding, Exceptional)
You are not able to discern the quality of their musical talent.


This way, it would be possible to simply RP playing poorly or very well, but also give the person, as well as the player's listeners something to judge it by. I don't have much idea about how listeners would be able to determine bad quality from good, but obviously, a musician could get better with practice.

Ehhh ... I'm still a bit reluctant, mostly because music is something that's entirely subjective in terms of how much a listener will "appreciate" it. A country music artist could be an awesome singer with meaningful lyrics and an amazing ability with the guitar ... but you like rap, so he sucks.

Vice versa as well.

I really think it's one of those "skills" best left up to RP. I mean ... would you want actors in a play to be forced to grind up their "performance" skill so that the other characters could assess them to make sure that they're acting well?

After giving it a night's thought, I still believe there should be some coded aspect to it.

For the same reason that a master pickpocket does not practice his trade without err, a master performer is not perfect either.

I've seen precious few RP sessions where a performer of any quality flubbed, and then usually they were minor, hardly-damaging, and easily correctable.

Quote from: musashi on August 22, 2009, 01:46:39 AM
Ehhh ... I'm still a bit reluctant, mostly because music is something that's entirely subjective in terms of how much a listener will "appreciate" it. A country music artist could be an awesome singer with meaningful lyrics and an amazing ability with the guitar ... but you like rap, so he sucks.

That's why I tried to only imply the quality, and not the perceived quality. There is little doubt that composers such as Tchaikovsky and Motzart have a quality of music vastly superior than that of average Joe on the street corner, regardless of how much you actually like classical music.

In the end, I'm suggesting that it should be put in code, but I'm not necessarily sure just how.

No. No. No. Its a short step from something like this to implementing a beauty stat, or a socialization skill. What's next, are people going to complain that people always emote mudsex really well? Maybe we need a mudsex skill!

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 19, 2009, 06:49:47 PM
As I already said, it is a Do Not Want. All of my musicians have "ground up music skills" via RP. We don't need to ruin an area of the game by requiring yet more grinding.

Quote from: Xagon on August 22, 2009, 06:04:37 PM
I've seen precious few RP sessions where a performer of any quality flubbed, and then usually they were minor, hardly-damaging, and easily correctable.

Oh please. We have talked about this endlessly, previously. In Real Life, how often have you seen a professional performer fuck up badly, in proportion to the times you have not seen them fuck up? Same thing for bards in Zalanthas. No one goes to the Sanc to perform before they've polished their skills and piece elsewhere.

After giving it many nights' thought, I still believe there should not be any coded aspect to it.

And hey, if you want to see this done some other way, then feel free to roll yourself a bard and RP the worst-ever Zalanthan performer. In fact, I dare you to attempt playing any kind of bard at all. After you've made a faithful attempt, then (and only then) you get to come back to the GDB and whine about bards.

Right. As has been said ... going down that road can quickly turn silly. With skills for cutting hair, tieing knots, building campfires, whistling, and folding blankets. I can't see a music skill adding anything to the game beyond hassle and stifling creativity.

As for the remark about never seeing folks mess up during a performance; while I agree that I rarely see it either beyond a small mistake that's easy to glaze over ... I note that, that's how RL works as well. You don't start giving public performances with an instrument until you're comfortable playing in front of people and know that particular piece well. Most mistakes professional musicians make, the listeners don't really notice because without being a musician yourself, you're just not likely to knit pick it that much.

This also ties into a misconception I think a lot of players have about bards. People seem to think that rank in the bardic circle = how well you play an instrument. So, you should emote sucking as an apprentice ... be sort of kind of alright as a seeker ... and finally you can emote playing it well as a master.

But that's just wrong from top to bottom. I've had characters turned away from the bardic circle when they auditioned because they didn't already know how to play an instrument well enough to perform with it. Being competant in music enough to perform is the basic requirement of being a bard. The ranks are entirely political and have almost nothing to do with how well a bard may or may not play a given instrument.

Given that knowledge, how much would it suck to have to spam train some arbitrary music skill to mastery just so you can join a clan as an apprentice? Or ... perhaps everyone with the bardic subguild gets their music skill bumped up to mastery level from the start ... ok but .. then what's the point of having the skill at all? We're right back where we started.

Also, FYI, if you go to the poet's circle and hang out there for a bit you'll catch bard PC's RP'ing sucking at an instrument way more often. Because that's where they go to practice the instruments they aren't comfortable playing for crowds yet.

Follow-on to musashi's note about skill required simply to gain Apprentice rank in Poets' Circle: The mastery of a single instrument is required for that rank. PCs who have gained the Apprentice rank have typically spent many years already practicing instruments and other bard craft. If they were born into the Circle, probably 10 or more; if they auditioned into the Circle, then at least a few. They are not newbies to their craft.

If your PC is hanging out with a Poets' Circle PC, feel free to "look" at that PC's instrument and note the charms hanging from it. If there is a charm representing an instrument there, that means the PC has mastered that instrument. See http://www.armageddon.org/general/music/charms.html and http://www.armageddon.org/general/music/bards.html for more details.

In defense of the OP, since this thread seems to have stirred up so many latent emotions, I don't think he was slamming bards necessarily for lack of realism.  It almost sounds like he'd consider doing one if there were a coded aspect, as an acknowledged lover of cranking out coded skills.

That said, looks like the preferences of other players go the other way.  ;)

I've never even seen a PC bard.

edit:  not true.  For about 2 minutes I did.  (they got ran out of the tavern)

Quote from: MarshallDFX on August 23, 2009, 12:32:56 AM
(they got ran out of the tavern)

I love Allanak.

The major issue with attempting to apply code to a PC's ability to play an instrument or sing a song is that, even amidst talented performers, reactions to their work varies because of the subjective nature of the one judging their performance.

No one has a choice to judge a theft any other way than, "That dude just stole my dagger!".  The exchange is laden with irrefutable evidence that the dagger is missing, and someone else now has it.  Almost every skill in Armageddon is coded this way, resulting in an "all or nothing" result.  You either land the kick or you don't.  You either cast the spell or you don't.  You either haggle the price down or you don't.

A player's reaction to a performance can be completely subjective, however, regardless of the character's actual "skill" with a musical instrument or voice.  People have emotional reactions to music, they have tastes for music, they enjoy particular melodies, have soft spots for particular songs, and can appreciate or disapprove of any number of things related to a performance.  And you have both the presentation and the execution to consider -- performances aren't just about landing the right notes, but applying the right amount of emotion and style behind a piece, which can become a signature part of their work(s).

Bards and other performers are really the only characters where part of their success or failure is still based on the actual talent of the player.  Their talent to properly convey the mood of the music through text, to couple emotes with words to represent the correct styling of their song, the inventiveness or creativity to create original works that are genuinely likable or catchy, and their ability to gauge an audience for the appropriate type of song or performance.

These are things that will never be adequately represented by code, and why the use of musical instruments, singing of songs, and acting of scenes should remain one of the areas of the game that is left completely up to the players.  It remains their choice to control the level of skill behind their character, and it remains your choice to apply your arbitrary likes and dislikes to their works.

It's really a win-win for both the performers and the audience.

-LoD

I voted YES

For me, it's much like combat --  a few players might abuse the code and not role-play much/ the majority players will simply use the code as a base and role-play way above what any code could attempt to portray.

Some have brought out the argument of creativity...  I believe the creativity will come out because more players might be drawn into trying to play a bard.   Not all players have the time nor energy to OOC write up 10 minute presentations for their PC,  not all players are masterful emoters...  but, 99% of the player base CAN use a coded skill as a springboard to make their characters come alive.  And that's important if we want bards who are just that... bards (not thieves or prostitutes or spies simply using the term bard as a cover)

Even if simply used for characters who play instruments -- it gives an option for a character where there wasn't one before.  And that would add to the game.

Quote from: My 2 sids on August 23, 2009, 01:46:53 PM
Some have brought out the argument of creativity...  I believe the creativity will come out because more players might be drawn into trying to play a bard.   Not all players have the time nor energy to OOC write up 10 minute presentations for their PC,  not all players are masterful emoters...  but, 99% of the player base CAN use a coded skill as a springboard to make their characters come alive.  And that's important if we want bards who are just that... bards (not thieves or prostitutes or spies simply using the term bard as a cover)

Even if simply used for characters who play instruments -- it gives an option for a character where there wasn't one before.  And that would add to the game.

Ah.  Yes, thank you for putting this better than I could.  I definately would more readily roleplay music, or play a bard, would there be a coded base to it.

Yes, I need a crutch to prop up my shitty RP and creative talents.

I want it, but on the condition that it's like Guitar Hero; whenever you smeg up it goes PLINK PLONK BLINK TINK TONK until you get it right. That would be hilarious.

Quote from: MarshallDFX on August 23, 2009, 03:56:41 PM
Yes, I need a crutch to prop up my shitty RP and creative talents.

It's not even about needing a crutch.  It's about the difference between a MUD and a MUSH.

Quote from: My 2 sids on August 23, 2009, 06:38:04 PM
It's not even about needing a crutch.  It's about the difference between a MUD and a MUSH.

I've always appreciated the blend of MUD and MUSH as being one of Armageddon's primary strengths.

What I -could- see being implemented for the people who are somewhat intimidated by handling the performance aspect of a bard character would be the learning of coded "songs" or "poems", so that they could choose to play one of them and it would handle a specific set of emotes/echoes/sing messages.

Bard characters wouldn't be forced to learn these, but it could be interesting if certain songs could only be learned from certain NPC's around the game world.  Knowing a particular song or poem could then become meaningful if your character could perform it, and master bards (like master merchants) might even be able to add their own songs to those other bards could learn over time.

I think a system like that might solve the problem of the newbie bard without forcing code upon a group that feels such code would lessen the fun they would have with the role.

-LoD

Quote from: My 2 sids on August 23, 2009, 06:38:04 PM

Quote from: MarshallDFX on August 23, 2009, 03:56:41 PM
Yes, I need a crutch to prop up my shitty RP and creative talents.

It's not even about needing a crutch.  It's about the difference between a MUD and a MUSH.

I think that the people in support of this would feel very very let down when they finally grind their music skill up to mastery ... play at a tavern ... and have the majority of the PC's there give them an impassive shrug of the shoulder, if not attest flatly that they don't like it anyway, reguardless of what the code said happened.

I don't think it has anything to do with the difference between a MUD and a MUSH personally. LoD hit the nail on the head when he talked about how coded skills have all or nothing effects. You either did something or failed to do it and the result is not up for subjective opinion. Music is not like that. Acting is not like that. I just don't think that those types of skills (the ones whose result is heavily influenced by the subjective perception of the people watching) need to be coded.

Though if you know of any other MUD's that have coded that out and had it not completely suck, by all means, bring them up as an example of how we might use a system somewhat like it here.

I like LoD's idea too.

My only question/point would be:  Are the performances of these coded songs/poems going to all be at one "level of skill"?  Or are they going to be generic enough that one could emote one's own performance of the song in between echos?

I voted no.

Because I'd rather see a PC bard's creative emotes than canned echoes. No matter how many coded styles you have, there's still a limitation to how you play a piece of music (if it's coded). I think being a bard is pretty RP intensive, and having it as a coded skill will strip it off its benefits.

Of course, you can say that you'll drop emotes in between play, but then, what's the point of having a coded skill for bards in the first place if you're going to drop emotes anyway?

Although, the only benefit I can think of if you really do a coded skill for bards is the reaction of a VNPC crowd. So you'll have echoes of what the VNPC crowd think of your music as you twink up your code, though that will definitely put more work load on the staff, since each region/tribe/etc has different tastes on music.

Quote from: Kankfly on August 24, 2009, 10:16:21 AM

Of course, you can say that you'll drop emotes in between play, but then, what's the point of having a coded skill for bards in the first place if you're going to drop emotes anyway?

I have to blink at this.

People add emotes to combat, to magic, to foraging, to any of our coded aspects to the game. I don't see why there can't be an intermingling of code/rp. It's what we do here. We roleplay our characters, as you know.  Why should bards be any different?

Frankly I don't mind if they code this, or not. I've played maybe two bard type characters during my whole existance on Arm. One was a half-giant who moonlighted as a bard and who was a Winrothol guard. The other? A failure. I mean, not icly, but because I suck at rping a bard. This is where my creativity seems to end. I can't do the music part of rping those characters.

That said, I wouldn't mind a way to codedly help people like me, who aren't gifted in portraying music well. Though if it doesn't get done, I'll simply not play bards. Which is kind of sad, I wouldn't mind trying once more, someday.

Its simple, as a bard to have music coded means the echo becomes standard. I would not want to be leashed to a code that dictates my sound. I would be writting in to staff every week asking for a new echo. In my humble opinion, the suggestion of code would stifle uniquiness.

Quote from: Potaje on August 24, 2009, 12:49:39 PM
Its simple, as a bard to have music coded means the echo becomes standard. I would not want to be leashed to a code that dictates my sound. I would be writting in to staff every week asking for a new echo. In my humble opinion, the suggestion of code would stifle uniquiness.

I'm wondering if people are confusing the two ideas.

My suggestion was not for bardic code to be mandatory, but to be provided as an option.  Players who are uncomfortable or simply bad at expressing music or lyrics via emotes or tells, or perhaps need some practice, could utilize these coded scripts of songs to help them overcome those barriers and, perhaps, even learn to do it themselves without needing to appear incompetent.

Players who are comfortable or familiar playing bards wouldn't need to every make use of the coded script and could, instead, continue to perform completely free of any code or script -- just like they do today.  Nothing would force them to use these "coded" songs or poems; they would exist solely for people who would like to utilize a scripted performance to compensate for:

> Being unfamiliar with more sophisticated uses of the emote code.
> Being uncomfortable or unfamiliar with common emotes for instruments they may have never played or seen before.
> Being a slow typer by nature or handicap.
> Being intimidated by the creativity they feel needs to be associated with a bardic performance.

The point is that a solution like this could help the character appear more comfortable and capable giving performances even if the player is not.  My vision has it being a completely voluntary choice on the part of the player, and would neither restrict nor limit the performances of bard PC's who wish to remain completely original or clear of such coded scripts.

-LoD

The problem with scripting or coding any kind of bardic performance at all is that the individual player is only going to want to see that performance once, ever. It's only new once. This is why scripted bards at the old Barrel and at the Sanc don't get a lot of play: they are repetitive, even with long playlists; and they are not interactive; and they are basically jukeboxes who (by nature of this being a text environment) are overly intrusive on RP. A good bard is not repetitive, is engaged in active interaction with the current audience, and is responding to what's currently happening in the environment.

We don't have scripted combat emotes either. I don't see how scripted combat emotes would add to the game, and I don't see how scripting bardic performances would add to the game.

It's possible to learn to play a decent bard, just like it's possible to learn to play decently any other role; but a player's got to actually put the time in. It's not all about talent and creativity of the individual player. But the time has to be done.

I invite anyone who wants to learn to adequately play a bard to start a thread in order to discuss that topic, or to PM me privately; I'm more than happy to help.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 24, 2009, 01:11:48 PM
We don't have scripted combat emotes either. I don't see how scripted combat emotes would add to the game, and I don't see how scripting bardic performances would add to the game.

I'm not sure that's a fair comparison, since the outcome of a combat encounter will be much more random and varied than the outcome of a song someone has developed.  However, if we want to get technical, combat really is a series of emotes handled by the game to convey the progress of an event, albeit in a random order based on the results of behind-the-scenes mathematical results.  They're certainly more varied than a bardic script would be, but not by much.  We've just never had to use a system where we were asked to emote every line of action ourselves and, instead, have been content to rely upon the code to handle it for us.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 24, 2009, 01:11:48 PM
It's possible to learn to play a decent bard, just like it's possible to learn to play decently any other role; but a player's got to actually put the time in. It's not all about talent and creativity of the individual player. But the time has to be done.

Just like anyone can learn to be a casual player, but the player has got to actually be willing to alter their play style or get used to things with which might make them uncomfortable or frustrated?  I don't see why this is any different from wanting supplementary code to help you have fun handling casual roles that you feel currently aren't possible because the "way you want to play" isn't supported by the current game.

Concerning "solutions" for problems, you mentioned in another thread:

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 24, 2009, 01:11:48 PM
"Solutions" that rely primarily on the personal experience and expertise of the player are not solutions to this problem at all.

I argue that your sentiment expressed here should apply equally to people who don't have the personal expertise or experience to play a bard, and that coded support for those players who cannot or will not attempt a bardic role without it would only serve to help the game by providing those players an avenue through which to play -- in exactly the same way that coded support for casual players who cannot or will not attempt a role without them could be helpful for the game.

I would further argue that there are factors involved with handling IC performances that could be better bridged by supplementary code than by personal consultation and coaching.  Having a scripted song doesn't mean they can't personalize it with their own emotes in between the spoken or sung words, using the script as a tool to practice on something standard before moving to something they want to make 100% their own.

The NPC bards are sometimes considered a nuisance because they won't stop singing if a templar suddenly tells them to, or a fight breaks out, or the crowd gets up and leaves.  They won't flavor the performance with random or specialized emotes because they are following a script 100%, but I don't think that these scripted songs need to be that restrictive or limited.  They can be a very useful bridge for players that would like to take on a performance-based role without necessarily needing to have to handle every element right away -- the same way that combat handles "enough" of a scene to get you through without being forced to construct a series of emotes or flavor it with your own style.

The downsides for these coded "scripts" lay almost entirely on the shoulders of the bards using them, and I would likely tailor the song selection so that the bulk of the available scripted songs were chosen for a combination of general appeal and brevity.

-LoD

Casual players are asking for supplementary code so that they can play alone more effectively, since there are so many time and code barriers to playing with others for a few minutes here and there across a span of days. But bardic performances are not done alone, they are done in social circumstances; and scripted bardic performances will largely be perceived as a burden to other players. Getting players to pay attention to, and have any respect for, bards and performers is already difficult enough. Adding a layer of anyone-can-do-it-and-annoy-you-in-the-process will not help matters in the least.

Comparing players of bards to casual players is an inept analogy. And comparing bardic performances to the incredibly boring, scripted combat code is even more inept. Combat code is one of the worst parts of this game, when it comes to the interest of the scripting. (It handles the outcome of combat just fine, but the repetitiveness is mind-numbing.) The scripted emotes of the crafting system are bad enough; combat code is worse.

And, if players want a repertoire of songs, jokes, stories, and poems to which they can add their own un-scripted emotes--that already exists, on armageddon.org and in these forums. Why does it need to be actually scripted into the game, when other players have already contributed so much that is ready to be mined?

Scripted emotes weren't the original poster's request anyways.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 24, 2009, 02:02:02 PM
Casual players are asking for supplementary code so that they can play alone more effectively, since there are so many time and code barriers to playing with others for a few minutes here and there across a span of days.

I was drawing an analogy between the request of casual players for supplementary code to assist them in achieving a role they felt was "doable" or "fun" to the potential of bardic scripted code assisting players in achieving a role they felt is "doable" or "fun".  Both requests are for supplementary code that would allow some niche group to be more doable or have more fun -- by their very personal and individual definitions.

A personal dislike for scripts is certainly not a good enough reason to claim that it would add nothing to the game.  That's just simply untrue.  If players felt more comfortable or able to portray a bardic character via this supplementary code, and it provided them with enough stability to graduate to a point where they no longer needed to use it, then it could be a very helpful addition indeed.

And using the repertoire of songs, jokes, stories, and poems available on the web site still doesn't address the issues for slow typers, or people that can't easily discern what a good song might be for a particular region, or how to best phrase them with the various coded verbal commands -- when a script would handle much of those features for them initially, and make it easier to see (by example) how they might want to phrase/deliver their own performances.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 24, 2009, 02:02:02 PM
Scripted emotes weren't the original poster's request anyways.

What's the point of saying this?  The idea is a variant aimed at meeting some of the implied needs of the OP (and other subsequent posters).  Are you saying it doesn't belong here?  Or that it's not valid simply because the OP didn't request this specific solution, even though he later mentions that he likes it?

-LoD

Quote from: LoD on August 24, 2009, 02:17:22 PM

Quote from: Gimfalisette on August 24, 2009, 02:02:02 PM
Scripted emotes weren't the original poster's request anyways.

What's the point of saying this?  The idea is a variant aimed at meeting some of the implied needs of the OP (and other subsequent posters).  Are you saying it doesn't belong here?  Or that it's not valid simply because the OP didn't request this specific solution, even though he later mentions that he likes it?

It seems to me like the original poster was requesting coded skill advancement for bard-type activities because he enjoys coded skill advancement. And he believes that players would be more likely to roll bard-type PCs if there was coded skill advancement involved; him included. That was my whole point: that scripting performances doesn't address the heart of what he was asking for, which was a somewhat self-focused achiever-type desire for an incentive to play bards.

I think the majority of the GDB knows that I love bard characters, I have played a bunch of performer types (both in Poets' Circle and elsewhere), and I would love to see more bardish PCs because of what they add to the game environment and their potential to contribute to other players' fun and immersion. I have personally helped a lot of people (via PMs and IM) get acquainted with bards in general and Tuluki bards specifically, for the purpose of helping them to get into those roles and thus contribute. I'm certainly not an elitist, wanting to "save" these roles for those who "deserve" them by dint of their own possession of extreme creativity and patience.

However, that doesn't mean I want to see barding become a canned experience, either. There are some areas of the game that should be coded, and some that shouldn't. Portions of the bardic role which are amenable to coding, are already coded. And other portions of the bardic role which could necessarily appeal to the achiever gamer type, are already set up to appeal to that type.

I'm not going to get into a ton of specifics, because IMO some of it is IC information only privy to those who are playing bards of Poets' Circle, but people who want to play "achieving" bards have plenty to play with, right now:

-- Musical instruments can be codedly crafted. Proficiency in such crafting is required for bardic advancement (Arc of Music).
-- Proficiency in coded combat is required for bardic advancement (Arc of Blades).
-- Proficiency in coded languages is required for bardic advancement (Arc of Words).
-- Knowledge and/or coded proficiency in some other area is required for bardic advancement (Arc of Lore).
-- Charms can be collected and are part of bardic advancement.

See http://www.armageddon.org/general/music/bards.html for all the above.

And in order to make the role enjoyable and playable from another coded standpoint, we have the special "sing" and "recite" commands. Performances can (and should) be scripted ahead of time by the player, for quick and easy use in the game itself. Knowledge of what is appropriate for a region should, can, and does come from other players of bards, and/or from the imms, and/or from just doing something in game and seeing what happens. (Oh, the stories I could tell about the numerous times I fucked up as a bard--but survived, and had fun, and usually recovered.)

So again, scripted or coded whatever of the kinds described previously is a do not want, for me. Nor do I believe anything mentioned in this thread is necessary, for anyone. We already have what we need, if players would just be bold and take the risk and avail themselves of the resources.

I also mentioned that these things are not just about being a bard.  It's about anyone who wants to somehow include music or an instrument in their roleplay, if even only minorly.

Why do I like code so?  It gives value to things.  When you're the ultimate sword-swinger of doom, everybody knows that it obviously took time and dedication and probablyl of a lot of roleplay to get there.  That much can be appreciated.

This is by no means saying it doesn't take time and dedication and a whole lot of roleplay to be a good bard, because I suspect that it does.
But it's really hard for me to even explain.. I just plain don't derive the same kind of pleasure out of it.  It feels more like homework, and less like a game.  Even though others might see it completely the opposite.  That said, my roleplaying is kind of mediocre.

I'll repeat my earlier question to LoD too, about semi-scripted learned performances:

Are the performances of these coded songs/poems going to all be at one "level of skill"?  Or are they going to be generic enough that one could emote one's own performance of the song in between echos?

Quote from: MarshallDFX on August 24, 2009, 06:36:29 PM
I'll repeat my earlier question to LoD too, about semi-scripted learned performances:

Are the performances of these coded songs/poems going to all be at one "level of skill"?  Or are they going to be generic enough that one could emote one's own performance of the song in between echos?

I would answer "yes" to both.  Players would be able to learn these scripted songs/poems over some length of time, and the songs would be generic enough so that players could emote their own style or add their own flavor to each performance. 

The group I see benefiting the most from this idea are those players who feel intimidated or uncomfortable with performance RP in Armageddon.  They would probably be more likely to try a performance-based role if they knew there was some code to help their character appear competent even if the player was not and was still trying to learn the "ropes".

I do not think that playing a bard should require, or benefits from, any kind of relative instrument/voice skill that needs to be improved through hard-coded "practice".  However, I could see these scripts providing some support for an inexperienced player who wants to try their hand at a bard, but is nervous about their ability and how they'll be perceived.

I see comments all the time that hint at people's insecurities about their RP, and I think anything that can help bring people closer to the roles they'd like to play without trivializing or forcing something upon the rest of the player base can be a good thing -- especially with something that is almost completely RP-based such as performing songs and poems.

-LoD

Quote from: MarshallDFX on August 24, 2009, 06:36:29 PM
I also mentioned that these things are not just about being a bard.  It's about anyone who wants to somehow include music or an instrument in their roleplay, if even only minorly.

Why do I like code so?  It gives value to things.  When you're the ultimate sword-swinger of doom, everybody knows that it obviously took time and dedication and probablyl of a lot of roleplay to get there.  That much can be appreciated.

This is by no means saying it doesn't take time and dedication and a whole lot of roleplay to be a good bard, because I suspect that it does.
But it's really hard for me to even explain.. I just plain don't derive the same kind of pleasure out of it.  It feels more like homework, and less like a game.  Even though others might see it completely the opposite.  That said, my roleplaying is kind of mediocre.

I'll repeat my earlier question to LoD too, about semi-scripted learned performances:

Are the performances of these coded songs/poems going to all be at one "level of skill"?  Or are they going to be generic enough that one could emote one's own performance of the song in between echos?

I just wanted to say that while this is my own personal opinion, I found that it's entirely possible, if not more so, for a high ranking bard to be seen as codedly vaulable. One of the really cool things for me from a coded value standpoint is that ... obviously the Master Bards must be highly skill in whatever their guild is ... but what is their guild? A sword swinger of doom who is legendary for it is probably a warrior ... a famous water mage from Allanak (or infamous more lkely) is quite obviously a water elementalist. And so on and so forth. But bards are in a position to be somewhat more immune to guild sniffing and the wondering, oh the wondering of what coded abilities they might possess, made them valued and appreciated even more so than a dread sword slnger or  killer for hire would have been.

Assassin.  ;D

I picture it more like your coded skill at the instrument determines what sort of generic echo you get but still leaves room for you to emote more specifically how they are doing it and to rp singing along with it, etc.
Your character might be kinda bad at playing their instrument at first, but be a talented showman in other ways and eventually get codedly good with their instrument. (or any others they spent enough time practicing with)
I'd have no problem with it being implemented in this way. Leave enough room to rp but have a coded skill to determine your echo tag for playing said instrument rather than having the player just dictate whether or not their pc was any good with a given instrument.
In fact, this would make me want to play a bard more if I had the time to. To me, there being no coding at all to a bard's performance ability has always turned me off in regards to playing them, or interacting with them.

There are some areas of the game where I think some things are overcoded. This is one of them that I feel is undercoded.

Again, this isn't just about bards.  It's about instruments and determining your skill with one.

I understand that. I read it when you said it a couple of posts ago. People will still mention bards because it does affect some of those characters as well. Probably more of them than any other.

Quote from: jhunter on August 24, 2009, 10:18:41 PM
I understand that. I read it when you said it a couple of posts ago. People will still mention bards because it does affect some of those characters as well. Probably more of them than any other.

Apologies.  I should have quoted.  I was saying that more in response to musashi's post earlier up.

I don't like this. To me it seems like it reduces musical proficiency to how many times you can enter a 'play drum' command. The way I look at it, bards are roles where you really get out what you put into it. If you see a bard in game with some semblance of success, you can be sure the player behind the role worked to get there. I don't feel like that's always true in other areas of the game.

It might seem like people have an easy road to mastering an instrument, because after all, they get to emote it however they want to. But wouldn't they still be able to emote freely after the proposed change?

I guess I'm just concerned that this would shift things away from where they are now, where the player really has to breathe life into the performance from scratch, to something where something with so much creative potential depends on skill grinding.

I find it amusing that people complained that we're playing a MUD not a MUSH not too long ago... but now people want something uncoded.  Why is one situation different than another?  I think any objection to having musical skills coded in some way should address that issue.

The tall, muscular man sings, in sirihish,
"o i wish i was tektolnes,
so i had lots of food,
i wish i was tektolnes,
cause i am in the mood."

The tall, muscular man's playing is beautiful and enchanting.
You feel the need to tip the tall, muscular man.
Someone forces you to applaud for the tall, muscular man.
You give many coins to the tall, muscular man.

:-\

Quote from: spawnloser on August 25, 2009, 04:59:14 PM
I find it amusing that people complained that we're playing a MUD not a MUSH not too long ago... but now people want something uncoded.  Why is one situation different than another?  I think any objection to having musical skills coded in some way should address that issue.

We have addressed that issue, several times.

The difference is: The end result of music is not an all or nothing effect. To the best of my knowledge, all of the coded skills in game represent all or nothing type situations. You hit, or you didn't hit. You got it, or you got caght trying to get it. You hide, or you didn't hide, and so on, and so on.

It would be every bit as unrealistic as the current crafting code (which is a whole 'nother ball of wax) to have a music skill tested and either come back with a: You play the song perfectly -or a- you completely mangle the music and treat everyone to 5 minutes of torture, missing every note; type echo.

Likewise, even after you come back with a "You play the song perfectly" type echo ... no one is required to acknowledge that. I can still tell youI hate your music, even if you spam trained it for days on end, because unlike every other skill in the game right now, it's subjective.

As jcjules mentioned I believe, not many people feel having social interaction in the game handled by coded skills would enrich anything. But would in fact do quite the opposite.


ooc I passed my seduction check, you have to like me now!

The f-me PC has departed the world of Zalanthas.

Don't forget to submit a request for a bump to your seduction resistance skill if you play a Tuluki noble.

Quote from: jcljules on August 25, 2009, 07:05:46 PM

The tall, muscular man sings, in sirihish,
"o i wish i was tektolnes,
so i had lots of food,
i wish i was tektolnes,
cause i am in the mood."

The tall, muscular man's playing is beautiful and enchanting.
You feel the need to tip the tall, muscular man.
Someone forces you to applaud for the tall, muscular man.
You give many coins to the tall, muscular man.

:-\

I would tip that guy so hard.

I disagree with your assessment of the problem, musashi.  Think about it this way, we are playing a MUD, like a D&D game, where performance skills are indeed 'coded'.  Your character has a skill, not you.  Performance skills don't have to be done like crafting skills, which plenty of people like myself wish wasn't an all or nothing thing as well.  There can be a grey-scale result instead of black and white like crafting is now.  As it stands, music is just one big grey area.  I'm fine with people writing their own prose and poetry for the purposes, but I'd like the ability to play instruments as coded in some fashion.  A long-term sort of thing with multiple echos giving indications of general competence and leaving the emoting up to the person playing the bard as far as style goes only.

Its not true that coded skills are all or nothing. Strikes have varring degress of success or failure. As does poisoning, lockpick, ect. Esp. Stealing. That said why not post an example of this music thought and then it would be easier to say why or why not it would work for those playing bards, or have played.

For Potaje: For things like poisoning, lock picking, stealing, climbing ... are you sure those have varying degrees of success? From my own experience those skills all seem to do a success/failure/critical failure sort of thing; which to me ... seems like an all or nothing with an added risk of sucking extra hard if you're unlucky.

I have no where near enough knowldge about the combat code to confidently comment on that, but I would imagine that because combat draws upon a huge array of different skills all comming together, you can get quite a different array of results. Since strikes probably use many different skills to get their result, I wouldn't want to compare them to coded actions that use only 1 skill, like crafting, picking locks, sneaking, climbing, and our proposed music skill.

So I still feel like all the skills in game are "all or nothing" in a sense, and assuredly objective in result.

For Spawnloser: I don't believe that to say a MUD is like a D&D game is a correct assessment, because a D&D game has a storyteller always present to make the rest of the world respond according to the situation at hand. A MUD is up and running all the time, often without the support of a storyteller, thus the need for the results of skills and the like to be entirely objective.

In the case of our MUD in particular, do you know of any other performing arts skills that are presently coded into the game? If I should be thinking that a MUD and a D&D game are like one another, and a D&D game has social "skills" then, am I missing them? My character has never been able to get an acting skill ... or a song composition skill ... or a dancing skill ... why don't we have these kinds of things hard coded? And what kind of gain would you see for the game if there were?

One of the proposed benefits stated by the OP was that people are inclined to respect coded proficency in a skill so by having a coded music skill, people would respect a musician who had that skill at a high level.

I contest this. I believe that people respect another character's ability to affect their own character, not the fact of a high level skill itself. For example, Amos respects Malik, because Malik could kill Amos bare handed, even if Amos had a steel sword to defend himself with. Or Amos respects Malik because Malik could sneak into Amos' apartment and take away all of his cool stuff and there's little he could do to stop him. Or maybe Amos respects Malik because Malik can craft up really really nice items for Amos to purchase and then sport around.

To make this point even more clear, Amos is quite likely to respect His Faithful Lord Malik even in spite of the fact that Amos has much higher skills all around than His Faithful Lord Malik does. Why? Because that respect doesn't have so much to do with skills, as it does respect for Malik's ability to impose his will upon Amos, and Templar don't need much in the way of skills to do that if you're inside their city-state.

When talking about respect for coded ability, I feel like it has less to do with the coded ability itself, and way more to do with how the coded ability can affect the other PC's in the world. Having very high combat skills, or crafting skills could get you the respect of some PC's pretty quickly I would imagine. I would not however, say the same for folks with a high ... forage. Or hunting ... or even climb. Why? Because skills like that have considerably less ability to directly impact another PC, so they aren't "respected" quite as much.

A hard coded music skill would likely not "affect" other PC's in any direct, objective fashion, nor would anyone want it to I believe, so ... I don't foresee someone with a high level of the coded music "skill" being respected much for having put the time in to grind it up, so I don't think that the benefits the OP talked about would ever come to pass.

Quote from: musashi on August 27, 2009, 07:23:38 PM
A hard coded music skill would likely not "affect" other PC's in any direct, objective fashion, nor would anyone want it to I believe, so ... I don't foresee someone with a high level of the coded music "skill" being respected much for having put the time in to grind it up, so I don't think that the benefits the OP talked about would ever come to pass.

In that post, I was primarily just trying to explain why I enjoy the idea of seemingly "pointless" coded skills.  I just like having a third party adjudicator for things.  It gives it validity.  I wasn't really listing that as a main benefit of an instrument code.  The main benefits that I see are listed in my original post.

Quote from: MarshallDFX on August 27, 2009, 07:32:01 PM
In that post, I was primarily just trying to explain why I enjoy the idea of seemingly "pointless" coded skills.  I just like having a third party adjudicator for things.  It gives it validity.  I wasn't really listing that as a main benefit of an instrument code.  The main benefits that I see are listed in my original post.

This ... became really, really REALLY long, and I'm sorry for that.

Would you really like a 3rd party adjudicator to tell you IG what kind of music your PC liked while you were listening to it? I mean ... would you really like a coded ability to send you an echo to let you know if your character thought that musician/actor/dancer's performance was good or bad?

You might, but I really wouldn't. I suppose we can just leave that as a difference of opinion and agree to disagree.

Quote from: MarshallDFX
Benefits:
Roleplaying practice enhanced
Gives another actual coded skill to bards
Prevents instant-master-musicians
Music-teacher profession

For the first benefit, I'm not entirely sure I agree with your premise. You said in your post that for whatever reason, people tend to RP better while they're training up a skill at the same time but ... I'm not sure I agree with that. From my experience PCs are more likely to throw out "just enough RP" to get by and focus mainly on typing in the right syntax as much as they can, when training coded skills because the RP comes second to trying to train the skill up. We have a lot of posts on the GDB about "how much should I emote while I forage" or "what's the right ratio of emote to skill usage for this skill" type threads you can search through. I think most of those threads arose because folks are more likely to emote less, syntax more when training is their primary focus. Not that that makes anyone a twink or a bad roleplayer or anything, I think it's just a human condition; something we're apt to do unless we catch ourselves. My point is I don't agree with the idea that training up a skill while you RP somehow makes the RP better than not. The best RP I've had was always simple human interaction. Like smoking up in your friend's apartment ... being raided ... playing izadri with a blood sucking defiler for your soul ... no skills were being trained during any of those situations and the RP quality was much higher than when I was sparring or doing guard drills or foraging in the woods with a hunting buddy.

Giving another actual coded skill to bards. I think that before you list that as a benefit, you should check with the people who regularly play bards and ask them if that's a skill they'd actually want. If this thread is any indication, most bard playing folks came back with a resounding no. So I don't think that giving a coded skill to a group that doesn't want is a very good benefit.

Prevents instant-master-musicians. To be entirely honest ... I think that this is the meat and potatos of why most people would want a hard coded music skill in the game. This has been brought up several times since I've joined the community, and likely several more times before that. I get the sentiment, I really do. I'm trying to play a hunter and my PC has to suck at their job until they hit 10 days played, so why does this guy playing a bard get to be a really good bard right out of character creation, that's not fair. But keep in mind that the newbie bard who's RP'ing being an awesome drummer or a fantastic guitarist ... ... is still a shitty assassian/merchant/warrior/psion/whatever. I promise. In fact, that newbie bard even sucks at the skills he got from his bard subclass, or whatever other subclass he may have selected. He's going to have to go and grind his coded skills just like everyone else if he wants to later be a part of cool "higher level" storylines and what not. No one is getting a "free pass" by RP'ing the ability to play instruments well. You could walk into a tavern as a new PC and RP being able to read fortunes really well, or dance really well ... some PC's even seem to make a good living whoring. People don't get upset that they didn't RP being terrible at said performances when they first got approved; why do bards alone seem to draw that out of folks? Lastly, I think the whole "we need to prevent insta-master-musicians" thing is a bit of a red herring. I've never actually seen a bard PC try to RP being an insta-master-musician. Most, as has already been said in this thread, pick one instrument they want to be decent with to get the ball rolling ... then they actually RP out being inept at other instruments, and try to better themselves with those other instruments as part of their role-play. I've never seen a trend of people claiming to be able to play everything like a master musician simply because the code wasn't in place to tell them not to. Did this happen at some point in the past? Or is it recent and I'm missing it? Where has this ever occured beyond the rare, quickly discouraged, new player?

Music Teacher Profession. I'm not sure this would come to pass in the way you're thinking either. For example, take a look at the game in its present form. It has lots of coded skills and people with those skills at high levels could probably try to sell themselves off as teachers for folks wishing to learn; but how many PC's do you know who try to make a living as a teacher? How many PC's have you seen try to advertise their skills and bring in students to pay them? If we aren't seeing PC's trying to be professional teachers of skills we're pretty sure everyone is interested in already, like combat skills ... hunting skills ... sneaky skills ... what leads you to believe that a Music Teacher would be a viable profession? I agree that every now and then a student looking to learn an instrument might seek a teacher for lessons, but that happens already. I've done that as a PC who wanted to learn to play, and I've seen others do it as well. I would venture to guess it happens about as often as a student seeks out a teacher for a coded skill (and by seeks out I mean tries to find one independantly, not like, joining a clan you know will train said skill). So, I don't think that making music hard coded would really increase the opportunties for music teachers beyond what they already are.

Quote from: musashi on August 27, 2009, 07:23:38 PM
For Spawnloser: I don't believe that to say a MUD is like a D&D game is a correct assessment, because a D&D game has a storyteller always present to make the rest of the world respond according to the situation at hand. A MUD is up and running all the time, often without the support of a storyteller, thus the need for the results of skills and the like to be entirely objective.

Where did I say something would be forced on the other players, like you seem to think?  I just want an objective indication of the competence, not how much the audience likes it.  That has everything to do with personal preference.

Quote from: spawnloser on September 02, 2009, 03:41:18 PM

Quote from: musashi on August 27, 2009, 07:23:38 PM
For Spawnloser: I don't believe that to say a MUD is like a D&D game is a correct assessment, because a D&D game has a storyteller always present to make the rest of the world respond according to the situation at hand. A MUD is up and running all the time, often without the support of a storyteller, thus the need for the results of skills and the like to be entirely objective.

Where did I say something would be forced on the other players, like you seem to think?  I just want an objective indication of the competence, not how much the audience likes it.  That has everything to do with personal preference.

If you've ever listened to "edge" or even "12-tone music" of the early 19th century, you might have noticed just how far you can stretch the term "competence" when it comes to appreciating music. I feel that music is something that's just entirely too subjective to have objectivity at all. 12 tone music to me, doesn't even sound like music, it sounds like random notes being struck in a random order ... which I feel any child could do just fine. In fact, if you look at the definition of the 12 tone technique it says: The technique is a means of ensuring that all 12 notes of the chromatic scale are sounded as often as one another in a piece of music while preventing the emphasis of any Since the chromatic scale includes every single note in music as we know it ... you could argue that it is in fact, nothing more than random notes being hit in a random order. To some foks in the early 19th century that was brillant music. To me, it's something a four year old with one hand could manage on a tonka toy keyboard with no practice or experience before hand. I don't even view it as competent music composition, and yet it's an appreciated part of music history. That's how subjective music can be.

But that aside even, given the apparent structure of skill-checks currently, how would you propose such a system could be implemented without being just as bad as crafting?

And by the current apparent structure, I mean that when you try to use a skill, your proficiency is checked ... and you get one of four possible results.

You can't even try to do it.
You critically fail.
You fail.
You succeed.

How could a system like that adequately express how competent a musician is?

I would be really disappointed if a master bard with a maxed out music skill just happened to fail his check and the room was treated to an echo that he was a terrible, terrible musician botching every note in the piece he just tried to play. I've never heard of a professional musician standing up on stage and completely failing at delivering a song he was about to play for his fans; a wrong note or three during the song ... that most fans didn't even really notice, or quickly forgot ... sure, but an entire three minutes of torture to the ear drums by absolutely anyone's standard? When has that happened? And yet I can't see the structure for skills as it currently stands allowing anything but.

I feel like to do music justice, the code supporting it would have to be complex indeed, perhaps more so than the complexity of the combat code ... and for what little gain would be had for doing that, the work that would need to go into it seems to be more trouble than its worth, when just emoting the music has done a fine job thus far.

I think people are loosing perspective here.  This isn't about forcing PCs to like or dislike someone's music.

Rather, the code would simply reflect the dozens of NPCs and PCs listening. 

I may not pay much attention to the local musicians group that plays at the coffee shop -- but I will take notice if they start to have more and more people listening to their music.  I might start to assume that they're good (even if it's not exactly my favorite)

I'm not too fond of the idea of coded music skill. I think it's a matter of results that bothers me about it.

With the combat skill, the result is, an injured/dead/incapacitated target. The target is -also- coded to be the beneficiary of the skill.

With the crafting skills, the result is a finished object, or a ruined object (which can end up being losing the item you were working with). The object in question is -also- coded to change, or not change, depending on your level of skill with the craft.

With the riding skill, the result is that you get to point B, or if you fail, you stand still, or get thrown off. The mount is -also- coded to bear the brunt of your skill with riding.

With music, there is no target. Nothing is happening _to_ anything. There is no recipient of the skill, other than the *subjective* ear of the listener. The listener will either enjoy it, not enjoy it, be neutral to it, or run away from it before they have to deal with it at all. They won't *benefit* from it, they won't be *hurt* by it. Nothing will happen to the listener as a result of the music's existence. Nothing new is created, nothing old is harmed.

I'd prefer to leave it up to emotes, because of the subjectivity involved. It isn't up to the musician to decide whether or not the music was any good, it's up to the listener. So there really isn't any way to create a skill that would allow the listener to make that decision, that I can think of.

Quote from: Lizzie on September 04, 2009, 09:15:53 AM
With music, there is no target. Nothing is happening _to_ anything. There is no recipient of the skill, other than the *subjective* ear of the listener. The listener will either enjoy it, not enjoy it, be neutral to it, or run away from it before they have to deal with it at all. They won't *benefit* from it, they won't be *hurt* by it. Nothing will happen to the listener as a result of the music's existence. Nothing new is created, nothing old is harmed.

I'd prefer to leave it up to emotes, because of the subjectivity involved. It isn't up to the musician to decide whether or not the music was any good, it's up to the listener. So there really isn't any way to create a skill that would allow the listener to make that decision, that I can think of.

You're now dangerously talking about is having an issue with creating a rich atmosphere for the game rather than focus on just building up skills.



One of the ideals which sets apart Arm from any ol' hack-n-slash game is that we players value a coded, kick-ass arena match the same as an emoted, well scripted conversation.   Yet you appear to be saying if nothing physical (coded) happens -- than it somehow doesn't/ shouldn't count.   If some player is enjoying role-playing a dream or a roach-race in the Gaj -- so what?   Good for that player!   They certainly shouldn't be  chastised simply because they didn't add anything to _your_ gaming experience.

Further, the _musician_ wouldn't be deciding, the population would.  You know, we players rely on NPC and VNPCs to enhance the game.  That part of the population buys our crafts,  calls out thieves and magickers, etc.   Why the heck can't they appreciate music?


Finally, least I remind everyone that great effort was just made to code POOP.  My guess is that coded poop only really enhances the game for a small portion of the player base --  yet we now have it in game for them to enjoy.  Isn't this really about the same?  A portion of players saying, "Hey, I'd enjoy playing this type of PC if we could do this?

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 04, 2009, 11:06:56 AM
Finally, least I remind everyone that great effort was just made to code POOP.  My guess is that coded poop only really enhances the game for a small portion of the player base --  yet we now have it in game for them to enjoy.  Isn't this really about the same?  A portion of players saying, "Hey, I'd enjoy playing this type of PC if we could do this?

The difference is that the only opposition to coded poop came from people who thought it was a waste of time. It doesn't really hurt anyone. It adds something, even if nobody appreciates it, to the game. It shouldn't really bother anyone. Instrument code, however, would bother a lot of people.

Some people were saying that it would encourage those who aren't artistically inclined to play a bard. That way even if their songs were lousy, boring or irritating -- the code would say it was good if they trained for long enough or played for enough hours. But honestly, who wants to see lousy, code-generated performances from people who aren't, by their own admission, creative enough to play a bard without this sort of crutch? People have enough of a problem with bards already, and I mean the ones who actually put a lot into it! Imagine how they'd react to boring 'instrument code bards!' With torches and pitchforks, I imagine.

Not to mention I suspect bard PCs would hate this addition. Its basically an insult -- you refuse to roleplay being a lousy musician for as long as we'd like, so we'll force you to. Also, a lot of people play bards and other 'flavor' PCs because they don't have enough time to play to practice skills!

Instrument code would do the following:

• Scare away those who like playing bards the way they are currently.
• Annoy people who already find bards boring and jarring with even more boring bards.
• Stifle creativity and make the subjective objective.
• Waste time.
• I would stab people with a rusty knife.

Poop bothers me every time it breaks immersion with the "large piles of NPC shit", and "your warbeetle takes a shit during a tense, emote-heavy scene!" occurrences, among many others...

I would far rather it have been forageable and the piles merely added to stableyards & appropriate.

Just sayin'.

Some things are better left uncoded.

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 04, 2009, 12:23:34 AM
I think people are loosing perspective here.  This isn't about forcing PCs to like or dislike someone's music.

Rather, the code would simply reflect the dozens of NPCs and PCs listening. 

Ok, how would it affect them, do you suppose? In what way would you envision the skill working?

I envision it working the same way any other skill does!!   Players put in their time and effort into creating a dynamic PC for them and others to enjoy!!   


Not every player who plays a combat PC knows much about weapons or fighting,  Not ever player who plays a merchant has a business/marketing degree, not every player who plays a jeweler in game could put together a "My first necklace" kit from Crayola.   And you know what happens?  they watch and learn from the code, attempt to make some good emotes, and they have fun -- and the other players have fun too.


I just see this conversation being directed more and more down a "judge the player's quality".  You know, I've never held a real weapon in my life... but, I sure don't like the implication that if I want to make a Byn or Milita PC that's somehow "insulting" to any Military players?!  Just because I don't have enough expertise to put on some grand emote-feast for your eyes???



Better yet, let's make Barding a high-level Karma-based role!   I mean, that's what you all are really worrying about, right?   Having some "unworthy" player create a PC?  Players come to Arm, play Arm, and crate Arm-based work because _they_ enjoy it.   If someone is coming to Arm just for real-life afformation that they can do something other people cannot --- one change in MUD code isn't going to help that situation.

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 04, 2009, 12:29:52 PM
Better yet, let's make Barding a high-level Karma-based role!   I mean, that's what you all are really worrying about, right?   Having some "unworthy" player create a PC?  Players come to Arm, play Arm, and crate Arm-based work because _they_ enjoy it.   If someone is coming to Arm just for real-life afformation that they can do something other people cannot --- one change in MUD code isn't going to help that situation.

That's a terrible idea. I'm sure there are players who are excellent leaders, have a bajillion karma and roleplay realistically all the time, who would make terrible bards. By the same token, there are probably newbies who have some skill with rhyme and meter who could make great bards.

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 04, 2009, 12:29:52 PM
I just see this conversation being directed more and more down a "judge the player's quality".  You know, I've never held a real weapon in my life... but, I sure don't like the implication that if I want to make a Byn or Milita PC that's somehow "insulting" to any Military players?!  Just because I don't have enough expertise to put on some grand emote-feast for your eyes???

It's not really about player quality, it's about how much work the player puts in. I believe that any ARM player could play a decent, non-boring bard, if s/he was willing to put the work into it. And no, I don't think that grinding coded instrument skill is the right kind of work for a player to put in. Rather, players should be researching bards here on the GDB; reading all the relevant docs; looking through the player submissions for material; asking more experienced players how to play a bard; thinking about what the playerbase has previously expressed they do/don't like about bards; writing and practicing emotes, songs, poems, and stories; and so on. Do all of that, and any of you can play a decent bard, truly.

When I play a bard, I put in many, MANY long hours of work offline simply in order to prepare a good presentation for when I get back in game. I am not willing to trade that offline work for simply more hours of coded skill grinding, which adds absolutely nothing to the world.

Quote from: Gimfalisette on September 04, 2009, 01:39:50 PM
When I play a bard, I put in many, MANY long hours of work offline simply in order to prepare a good presentation for when I get back in game. I am not willing to trade that offline work for simply more hours of coded skill grinding, which adds absolutely nothing to the world.

Yep. Same for me.   I even put in lots of work offline for bards who really aren't very good -- who flub up their instrument, forget words of their piece, etc.  Though they may not be perfect bards, my presentation of their work is still good and entertaining.

Exactly my point though.   You all want to put in extra long time offline to write poetry and songs great.  Wonderful even.   But, you don't get any gold stars for that -- I certainly don't see why you all should covet a specific career all to yourselves.

We're not talking about all bardic activities anyways -- we're talking about instrument play.

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 05, 2009, 06:35:21 AM
I certainly don't see why you all should covet a specific career all to yourselves.

::) Yes, that's exactly what we're trying to do.

It appears to me that people are confusing a coded skill for instrument play with overall performance ability and how other characters percieve the performance based upon it.
Skill with an instrument is more a tangible thing than an outsider's perception. You can hear someone play an instrument and tell whether or not they are skilled with it. Just because the code says that someone plays their instrument well, it does not mean you are required to like their overall performance. You may not like their lyrics, their singing as a whole or the specific instrument they are playing.

Noone is suggesting that -everything- for rp'ing performances be coded. Just instrument skill. You would still be just as free to rp your performing character in every other way purely how you choose. You would just have a bit more framework in regards to playing instruments.

I think I said it before and I'm gonna say it again. The whole turnoff about performance pcs is that -every- bit of it is up to the player, how well they play an instrument, how well they sing, etc. I feel this way about them when others play them, and when I play them as well. I don't think there's anything unfair about wanting to have just this one part become a coded skill. If this were done, I would be more inclined to play a pc that played an instrument. I would feel less...cheated I suppose, when I see performance pcs going about their business.

It would also stop instrument-playing pcs from being good at whatever instrument they pick up without having earned it.

I just don't see what benefit there is, to coded instrument skill. What will it -give- to the game? What echo will the observer see? So far I haven't seen a single example of anyone explaining how they intend for this to work. In my mind, this is what I would see, if I was watching as an audience member:

>The tressy-tressed bard begins to play a lute.
>The tressy-tressed bard sings, in sirihish,
"Oh, I'm playin a lute, yeah yeah
it's resting between my leggins
I'm doin a great job, yeah yeah,
so don't be givin me no eggins"

>The tressy-tressed bard fails miserably, breaking the strings of her lute and taking several rotten pieces of fruit to the face.

>The tressy-tressed bard begins to play a lute.
>The tressy-tressed bard sings some more.
>Without breaking any strings, the tressy-tressed bard manages to play the lute.

>The tressy-tressed bard begins to play a lute.
>The tressy-tressed bard doesn't emote this time because she's just practicing in front of a couple of close friends who are busy spam-crafting while their players read the GDB.
>Without breaking any strings, the tressy-tressed bard manages to play the lute.

>The tressy-tressed bard begins to play a lute.
>The tressy-tressed bard's player IMs a few people while she waits for the success message.
>The tressy-tressed bard fails miserably, breaking the strings of her lute and taking several rotten pieces of fruit to the face.

>The tressy-tressed bard puts a lute in a large agafari chest.

That's what I see, in my head. And that is why I object vehemently to coding it. I can't see ANY benefit at all to coding instrument skill and can see lots of wasted effort on something that can only promote spammage and twinkery, with no actual benefit to the game.

>play lute

The prissy, flaxen-haired woman begins playing the lute, plucking the strings awkwardly.

(ldesc is changed to reflect this to those who were not present when she started)

The prissy, flaxen-haired woman is here, playing a lute awkwardly.

(the player, can then sing however they choose, can rp around the coded feedback that their pc simply isn't that skilled with the instrument yet)

It would be more than just a pass or fail, there could be five to six differing echoes to display several different levels of skill at playing the instrument. The trick is to keep the echoes so that they display a more loose definition of the skill level than saying things too specifically so that there is still plenty of room for the player to roleplay within that framework.
How awkwardly in this example would still be left up to the player to roleplay. Is it awkward because she keeps missing notes, or because her timing is off? Is it awkward sounding because she's still learning to get the lute in tune? What specifically makes it awkward sounding would be up to the player.

Not that I have ever enjoyed text-based musical performances in the past..since I haven't..but if this were implemented, I would make a very decisive effort to not attend any, ever again.

The prissy, flaxen-haired woman begins playing the lute, plucking the strings awkwardly.

The prissy, flaxen-haired woman emotes a bunch of times, they all look however they look, but her -player- is more concerned with the coded benefit than the actual performance. And so, as soon as she receives an echo back letting her know that the code is finished with her "beginning to play the lute," everyone sees:

The prissy, flaxen-haired woman begins playing the lute, plucking the strings awkwardly.

The prissy, flaxen-haired woman emotes some more. And she's still more concerned with the code than impressing anyone with her creativity. And so..

The prissy, flaxen-haired woman begins playing the lute, plucking the strings awkwardly.

A dozen people leave the performance.

The prissy, flaxen-haired woman begins playing the lute, plucking the strings awkwardly.

No thanks.

As it is now, I don't bother with performances simply because I know they didn't have to earn anything. So, either way you have people who dislike performing characters for one reason or another.
Every time I see someone start a performance I think to myself: "Great, here we go again with another shitty performance where I know they didn't earn a damned thing but will do their best to make their pc display as though they mastered their instrument, sing like an angel, dance like a prima ballerina, etc.
It irks the shit out of me. I don't think it's too much to ask to make some of it dependant upon a coded skill.
I've also seen bard pcs put down the performances of non-bard pcs just because they decided "I'm a bard, so anyone who isn't part of the circle must suck." I'd rather there be a coded skill (at least for instruments) to prevent people from being able to arbitrarily decide that someone is good or bad with an instrument.

Almost nothing else in the game allows for it. I don't think it should be as different as it is for performance characters. It's like performance characters get to play in a mush, but other characters have coded skills and restrictions.

Your example is flawed Lizzie. You're assuming that someone is going to sit and powergame the skill up, in front of -everyone- and not get reported for it. I know I'd report that in a heartbeat.

Quote from: jhunter on September 05, 2009, 01:17:44 PMAs it is now, I don't bother with performances simply because I know they didn't have to earn anything.

On the contrary, I never felt so much like I had to earn everything as when I played a bard.

The idea that bards should need to invest a certain amount of time entering "play mandolin" over and over again doesn't appeal to me.

You had to ICly earn your ability to play an instrument? I've never seen it rp'ed out by any performance character I've ever seen in the game.

The change you desire would not "fix" anything anyways, since if you take the example of a Poets' Circle Apprentice bard--in order to gain the Apprentice rank, they already have to be proficient for performance with a single instrument. They have ICly earned the proficiency in their instrument before you ever see them perform.

They could be like Tuluk's gemmers, where instead of sitting in a temple spamming spells, they sit in a garden spamming tunes!

Quote from: jhunter on September 05, 2009, 01:17:44 PM
As it is now, I don't bother with performances simply because I know they didn't have to earn anything. So, either way you have people who dislike performing characters for one reason or another.
Every time I see someone start a performance I think to myself: "Great, here we go again with another shitty performance where I know they didn't earn a damned thing but will do their best to make their pc display as though they mastered their instrument, sing like an angel, dance like a prima ballerina, etc.
It irks the shit out of me. I don't think it's too much to ask to make some of it dependant upon a coded skill.
I've also seen bard pcs put down the performances of non-bard pcs just because they decided "I'm a bard, so anyone who isn't part of the circle must suck should be ignored, disparaged, or brought into the circle, or blackmailed." I'd rather there be a coded skill (at least for instruments) to prevent people from being able to arbitrarily decide that someone is good or bad with an instrument.

Almost nothing else in the game allows for it. I don't think it should be as different as it is for performance characters. It's like performance characters get to play in a mush, but other characters have coded skills and restrictions.

The first thing is wrong. The second thing is supposed to happen, with the modification I made.

Quote from: jhunter on September 05, 2009, 01:35:27 PM
You had to ICly earn your ability to play an instrument? I've never seen it rp'ed out by any performance character I've ever seen in the game.

This definitely happens, just most often in private. And this sort of thing is enforced by the charm system, at least among Circle bards.

Also, I feel that the claim that most bards emote playing perfectly and singing with angelic voices is complete bullshit. I've never, ever, ever seen a single bard indicate that their playing is 'wonderful' or 'beautiful' or 'moving.' Most bards I've seen don't indicate the quality of their playing and singing one way or the other. Most bards I've seen just use big words to convey the overall feeling of their pieces. There's a big difference, quite honestly.

Also, I don't generally judge bards based on their 'voices' or 'playing,' because both of those things don't really matter in a text-based environment. I like to see bards use them, but only as 'dressing.' Want to know how I judge bards? I judge them based on the content of their songs, poems and stories. Cause rhyme, meter and poetry take some out of character skill. And gathering stories to tell takes some in character work. And unlike someone emoting an instrumental performance, I can really appreciate a nice poem or a story.

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 04, 2009, 12:29:52 PM
I envision it working the same way any other skill does!!   Players put in their time and effort into creating a dynamic PC for them and others to enjoy!!   

So you're in favor of music being terribly represented in a way that is in no way realistic or in line with the way music actually gets played ... sort of like our obviously flawed and often complained about crafting system.

Here is how the music skill would be if it worked the same as "any other skill" works (and I already said this before, above ... though I'm starting to think folks aren't actually reading the posts others make).

> play guitar

(code checks your skill and tests it)

Possible outcomes:

> You don't know how to play the guitar.
> You try to play a tune, but your strings break!
> You try to play a tune, but it comes out horrible.
> You play the tune perfectly.

I'm sorry, but I'm at a loss for how anyone could think that kind of implementation would enrich the game in any way whatsoever. When was the last time you went to a concert and the professional musician playing failed his music check and botched the entire tune he was playing as a direct result?

This arguement is the same one we have with crafting ... when is the last time you've seen a person mess up one link in a suit of chainmail and thus have the entire vest turn to dust and scatter to the winds?

You haven't, because the real world doesn't work like that and the crafting system is one of those areas where everyone knows the code fails to do justice to the idea its trying to represent.

"Wanting to know if a PC is a skilled musician" is a decent want, but the code in its current form won't do a good job of expressing that at all; and for all the work it would take to have a code flexible enough to do justice to something like music (or crafting) ... the staff's energy is probably better spent elsewhere; since we're getting on fine without the code for music as it stands now.

First, I voted no.

Second, I have seen new bards RP mistakes and being  inept in general.

Third, If there was such a skill and I was playing a bard I would simply bypass it with emotes anyway and give a straight up "fuck off" to anybody that complained.

Forth, I don't really give a fuck if somebody rolls a bard that is an expert from the start. Why, because we do not start PCs as children, they could have 20 years experience already.

Fifth and lastly, it is not a "skill" That can actually affect anybody. Not like D&D bards that can sing songs of traveling or balled of healing and cause people to run like a delf and regenerate at triple speed.

Quote from: X-D on September 05, 2009, 09:03:21 PM
First, I voted no.

Second, I have seen new bards RP mistakes and being  inept in general.

Third, If there was such a skill and I was playing a bard I would simply bypass it with emotes anyway and give a straight up "fuck off" to anybody that complained.

Forth, I don't really give a fuck if somebody rolls a bard that is an expert from the start. Why, because we do not start PCs as children, they could have 20 years experience already.

Fifth and lastly, it is not a "skill" That can actually affect anybody. Not like D&D bards that can sing songs of traveling or balled of healing and cause people to run like a delf and regenerate at triple speed.

I've been straining to resist the urge to start dropping f-bombs in this thread, but yeah ... that's about how I feel.

Quote from: X-D on September 05, 2009, 09:03:21 PM
Fifth and lastly, it is not a "skill" That can actually affect anybody. Not like D&D bards that can sing songs of traveling or balled of healing and cause people to run like a delf and regenerate at triple speed.

The dusky-skinned afro-haired man brandishes his shoulder-slung agafari guitar.

Psychedelic energy begins to swirl around the dusky-skinned, afro-haired man as he weaves a song.

The dusky-skinned, afro-haired man strikes a power chord, healing you with the power of ROCK!
You feel warm as wounds close all over your body. You involunteraily throw devil horns.

Quote from: Spice Spice Baby on September 05, 2009, 09:23:35 PM

Quote from: X-D on September 05, 2009, 09:03:21 PM
Fifth and lastly, it is not a "skill" That can actually affect anybody. Not like D&D bards that can sing songs of traveling or balled of healing and cause people to run like a delf and regenerate at triple speed.

The dusky-skinned afro-haired man brandishes his shoulder-slung agafari guitar.

Psychedelic energy begins to swirl around the dusky-skinned, afro-haired man as he weaves a song.

The dusky-skinned, afro-haired man strikes a power chord, healing you with the power of ROCK!
You feel warm as wounds close all over your body. You involunteraily throw devil horns.

I actually played a musician PC in Star Wars Galaxies. (Musicians and dancers could give buffs and speed healing.) I thought it was neat, sort of. But it ended up actually detracting from the RP that the RPers wanted to do; no one was ever just in a tavern/cantina to have a good time, everyone was there to get buffed, dood.

How about if we just let highly-skilled bard PCs do damage to everyone in the room instead? Rock on, if so. Oh, but if the bard hits a crit fail with their instrument, then THEY take damage. I wonder how many newb bards we can kill off that way!

Quote from: jcljules on September 05, 2009, 07:13:20 PM
Also, I don't generally judge bards based on their 'voices' or 'playing,' because both of those things don't really matter in a text-based environment. I like to see bards use them, but only as 'dressing.' Want to know how I judge bards? I judge them based on the content of their songs, poems and stories. Cause rhyme, meter and poetry take some out of character skill. And gathering stories to tell takes some in character work. And unlike someone emoting an instrumental performance, I can really appreciate a nice poem or a story.

First,  So you just don't want any instrumental bards in the game?  You want them all to be poetry, historical, or singing only?

Second,  Maybe I'm not understanding you here.  Who is "them"?   Because, when you're dealing with a strictly emoted/ non-skill-based PC  all you have to go on is the emoting ability of the PLAYER 


I would just like someone to explain to me why this as a coded skill is such a bad idea w/o the added arrogance of "anyone who uses a coded skill is a pathetic player who wants nothing more than power-game to build skills"

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 05, 2009, 10:30:01 PM
I would just like someone to explain to me why this as a coded skill is such a bad idea w/o the added arrogance of "anyone who uses a coded skill is a pathetic player who wants nothing more than power-game to build skills"

I already did, like four times dude!!! Read the posts I wrote!

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 05, 2009, 10:30:01 PM
I would just like someone to explain to me why this as a coded skill is such a bad idea w/o the added arrogance of "anyone who uses a coded skill is a pathetic player who wants nothing more than power-game to build skills"

I'm pretty sure nobody has said that at all.

My main argument against it is that most PC bards are at least Apprentice rank in a bardic circle, which means they're masters of an instrument already. Which means they'd just have to get the skill buffed up to master level upon character creation anyhow.

I just simply don't see why every aspect of playing a performance-based pc has to be uncoded and why it's so wrong for any little part of it to be a coded skill like every other fucking class in the game.
Personally, I think it's rather twinkish that people are so against it.

"Oh noes, don't force me to actually have my pc ICly learn to do any aspect of their job codedly like everyone else! Please let me keep my emote-powered twinkery!"

/obvious sarcasm

QuoteQuote from: My 2 sids on September 04, 2009, 02:29:52 AM
I envision it working the same way any other skill does!!   Players put in their time and effort into creating a dynamic PC for them and others to enjoy!!  


So you're in favor of music being terribly represented in a way that is in no way realistic or in line with the way music actually gets played ... sort of like our obviously flawed and often complained about crafting system.

No, I don't believe that's what anyone is saying. I believe that's exactly what some of us are against. Because the way that you described it, is the way I feel it to be -currently-. Currently, the way it works is that the player can simply decide the skill level of their pc and then go with that. In real life, it doesn't work that way, just like anything else, you have to work at an instrument in order to learn to play it well. You don't just get to decide that, "You know, I think I'm going to master the guitar today and *POOF* you're a master of the guitar." The way the game is currently designed in regards to it.
You would instead have to rp out learning to play the instrument of choice and actually spend time in game practicing it in order to be able to have the coded skil to play it at a certain level.

Quote from: jhunter on September 06, 2009, 01:27:24 AM
No, I don't believe that's what anyone is saying. I believe that's exactly what some of us are against. Because the way that you described it, is the way I feel it to be -currently-. Currently, the way it works is that the player can simply decide the skill level of their pc and then go with that. In real life, it doesn't work that way, just like anything else, you have to work at an instrument in order to learn to play it well. You don't just get to decide that, "You know, I think I'm going to master the guitar today and *POOF* you're a master of the guitar." The way the game is currently designed in regards to it.
You would instead have to rp out learning to play the instrument of choice and actually spend time in game practicing it in order to be able to have the coded skil to play it at a certain level.

This bard you're speaking of is a mythical creature. You're advocating for something that is a cure to a problem that does not exist.

I just described almost every bard I've ever seen in game. Don't discount my own experiences simply because your personal ones differ. I'm not just making something up out of thin air, I'm speaking from personal experience. I'm stating the reasons I have from those experiences that give me a bad taste in my mouth regarding -most- bardic/performance-based pcs I've dealt with over the years. Note: I'm saying -most- not all, there have been a few shining moments here and there but, for the most part, it's been truly disappointing, especially knowing that there's no coded basis for their talent, in any area of playing such a character at all.

If you actually see that happening, then it would seem legitimate to send a complaint to the imms about it. If you have seen bards of Poets' Circle playing proficiently in public, however, then you haven't seen what you say you've seen. That's just a fact.

Actually I don't see anywhere in the documentation where it states that -all- bards of the circle are required to be proficient with an instrument. Especially when reading through it that different groups specialize in different areas, some of which have nothing to do with instrumental performance. If you can show me documentation saying otherwise, I'd appreciate it.

Quote from: jhunter on September 06, 2009, 12:38:13 AM
I just simply don't see why every aspect of playing a performance-based pc has to be uncoded and why it's so wrong for any little part of it to be a coded skill like every other fucking class in the game.
Personally, I think it's rather twinkish that people are so against it.

"Oh noes, don't force me to actually have my pc ICly learn to do any aspect of their job codedly like everyone else! Please let me keep my emote-powered twinkery!"

/obvious sarcasm

You know, this is making a lot of sense.

musashi, surely you understand how our coded system works don't you?   Coded skills represent background knowledge, so in that sense everyone comes into game at "apprentice" level.  Clans hire PCs of "apprentice" level all the time!!!  What's unfair if Poet's Circle became the same?

Why all this special treatment for bards?

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 06, 2009, 06:29:56 AM

Quote from: jhunter on September 06, 2009, 12:38:13 AM
I just simply don't see why every aspect of playing a performance-based pc has to be uncoded and why it's so wrong for any little part of it to be a coded skill like every other fucking class in the game.
Personally, I think it's rather twinkish that people are so against it.

"Oh noes, don't force me to actually have my pc ICly learn to do any aspect of their job codedly like everyone else! Please let me keep my emote-powered twinkery!"

/obvious sarcasm

You know, this is making a lot of sense.

musashi, surely you understand how our coded system works don't you?   Coded skills represent background knowledge, so in that sense everyone comes into game at "apprentice" level.  Clans hire PCs of "apprentice" level all the time!!!  What's unfair if Poet's Circle became the same?

Why all this special treatment for bards?

First off, every aspect of playing a performance based PC is not uncoded. As has been already said ... many times ... the Arcs of Learning for the bardic circle include a great many things that are hard coded, and require skill grinding to improve. The only part that is presently uncoded is the actual performance itself because that's role-playing ... and probably best handled by the emote command.

Now as for your questions ... you'll have to forgive me ... but since I've already typed an answer to this at least three times, I don't really feel like putting forth the effort of doing it again (and likely having it ignored ... again). Here is the cut and paste though.

Quote from: musashi on August 27, 2009, 08:21:18 PM
Prevents instant-master-musicians. To be entirely honest ... I think that this is the meat and potatos of why most people would want a hard coded music skill in the game. This has been brought up several times since I've joined the community, and likely several more times before that. I get the sentiment, I really do. I'm trying to play a hunter and my PC has to suck at their job until they hit 10 days played, so why does this guy playing a bard get to be a really good bard right out of character creation, that's not fair. But keep in mind that the newbie bard who's RP'ing being an awesome drummer or a fantastic guitarist ... ... is still a shitty assassian/merchant/warrior/psion/whatever. I promise. In fact, that newbie bard even sucks at the skills he got from his bard subclass, or whatever other subclass he may have selected. He's going to have to go and grind his coded skills just like everyone else if he wants to later be a part of cool "higher level" storylines and what not. No one is getting a "free pass" by RP'ing the ability to play instruments well. You could walk into a tavern as a new PC and RP being able to read fortunes really well, or dance really well ... some PC's even seem to make a good living whoring. People don't get upset that they didn't RP being terrible at said performances when they first got approved; why do bards alone seem to draw that out of folks? Lastly, I think the whole "we need to prevent insta-master-musicians" thing is a bit of a red herring. I've never actually seen a bard PC try to RP being an insta-master-musician. Most, as has already been said in this thread, pick one instrument they want to be decent with to get the ball rolling ... then they actually RP out being inept at other instruments, and try to better themselves with those other instruments as part of their role-play. I've never seen a trend of people claiming to be able to play everything like a master musician simply because the code wasn't in place to tell them not to. Did this happen at some point in the past? Or is it recent and I'm missing it? Where has this ever occured beyond the rare, quickly discouraged, new player?

And for the record, bards come into the circle at "apprentice" levels as well. It just so happens that an apprentice bard more often than not, has to be proficient in an instrument enough to give performances with it. Later on they have to learn more instruments in order to advance through the Arc of Music.

Lastly ...

Quote from: jhunter on September 06, 2009, 01:27:24 AM

QuoteQuote from: My 2 sids on September 04, 2009, 02:29:52 AM
I envision it working the same way any other skill does!!   Players put in their time and effort into creating a dynamic PC for them and others to enjoy!!  


So you're in favor of music being terribly represented in a way that is in no way realistic or in line with the way music actually gets played ... sort of like our obviously flawed and often complained about crafting system.

No, I don't believe that's what anyone is saying. I believe that's exactly what some of us are against. Because the way that you described it, is the way I feel it to be -currently-. Currently, the way it works is that the player can simply decide the skill level of their pc and then go with that. In real life, it doesn't work that way, just like anything else, you have to work at an instrument in order to learn to play it well. You don't just get to decide that, "You know, I think I'm going to master the guitar today and *POOF* you're a master of the guitar." The way the game is currently designed in regards to it.
You would instead have to rp out learning to play the instrument of choice and actually spend time in game practicing it in order to be able to have the coded skil to play it at a certain level.

... I really feel like you're misquoting me on purpose to try and come up with some strawman arguement to rebuke. If you had included the rest of my post instead of just one sentence out of context, your repy would not have even made sense.

See this part ...

Here is how the music skill would be if it worked the same as "any other skill" works (and I already said this before, above ... though I'm starting to think folks aren't actually reading the posts others make).

> play guitar

(code checks your skill and tests it)

Possible outcomes:

> You don't know how to play the guitar.
> You try to play a tune, but your strings break!
> You try to play a tune, but it comes out horrible.
> You play the tune perfectly.

I'm sorry, but I'm at a loss for how anyone could think that kind of implementation would enrich the game in any way whatsoever. When was the last time you went to a concert and the professional musician playing failed his music check and botched the entire tune he was playing as a direct result?

This arguement is the same one we have with crafting ... when is the last time you've seen a person mess up one link in a suit of chainmail and thus have the entire vest turn to dust and scatter to the winds?

You haven't, because the real world doesn't work like that and the crafting system is one of those areas where everyone knows the code fails to do justice to the idea its trying to represent.

"Wanting to know if a PC is a skilled musician" is a decent want, but the code in its current form won't do a good job of expressing that at all; and for all the work it would take to have a code flexible enough to do justice to something like music (or crafting) ... the staff's energy is probably better spent elsewhere; since we're getting on fine without the code for music as it stands now.

To me it seems like you left that bit out so that you could pretend like my statement was actually describing the way music is handled currently. Does that (now in full context) seem like the way music is handled currently? Do you think anyone would like to see music handled like that? Because that is the way the skill code currently functions.

Ok so that wasn't the last bit ... found one more thing.

Quote from: jhunter on September 06, 2009, 01:50:10 AM
Actually I don't see anywhere in the documentation where it states that -all- bards of the circle are required to be proficient with an instrument. Especially when reading through it that different groups specialize in different areas, some of which have nothing to do with instrumental performance. If you can show me documentation saying otherwise, I'd appreciate it.

I take it you have never played a bard? I say this because if you had, and had access to the bardic circle clan documents ... you would not have made that statement to begin with. I would normally be more than happy to show you where it states that bards are required to know how to play, craft, and maintain instruments for clan advancement and how many correspond to each level of promotion, but I'm hesitant to post clan doc information that's behind a password protected webpage.

In an off topic thought ... I keep staring at my 2 sids avatar. It's got hypnotic properties.

The fact that bardship is OOC code for "spy/whore/assassin/etc" in game -- instead of being an actual line of work -- is a different thread all together. 
So, I don't care that the NPC sucks as "kill" or "listen" or whatever.

The idea that some players masterful emoters and some are not isn't a big deal (we're all role-playing after all, so individual styles aren't a big deal).  UNTIL it is said, "you players need code for a crutch when I don't"     I mean, how is that not offensive?   This is a _coded_ game:  some folks add TONS to the code, some add a bit...  none but a handful of twinks power-code to the point of abusing code or using it as a crutch or not emoting to the point of their characters becoming stagnate.

Again, we're talking about instrument play.  Outside of "awkward"  I think the true advantage to code would be to explain the mood of the music.  A novice or starting out musician may be able to play a song at a fast or slow pace, but a master can play a "hunting" or "sorrowful" or "angry" piece

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 06, 2009, 08:15:56 AM
Again, we're talking about instrument play.  Outside of "awkward"  I think the true advantage to code would be to explain the mood of the music.  A novice or starting out musician may be able to play a song at a fast or slow pace, but a master can play a "hunting" or "sorrowful" or "angry" piece

I would not be against a coded music skill that was robust enough to do what you're suggesting. But, the way that the code handles skills currently wouldn't allow for music to be coded in such a fashion, for reasons I already explained above.

For the amount of effort it would take to code up a music code that did justice to music, I just feel like staff's energy would be better spent elsewhere, because as things currently stand, I don't think anyone is really suffering from having to emote their musical aptitude, and I don't think anyone else is actually being cheated or wronged by another PC emoting out their own musical aptitude.

And I really don't think that musically inclined PC's are out there tossing out "twinky power emotes" like:
emo strikes a chord on the fiddle and everyone in the room begins to cry with tears of joy he's such a wonderful musician.

I've never seen that, not even once. I've never seen anything close to that. I don't think protecting the mud from something like that is an actual reason for anything because I don't believe that happens. If it did happen, I would treat it the same as if someone had done this:

emo lifts a finger and the entire tavern rockets off into space.

I would file a complaint for power emoting. Ok well actually I would assume it was a newbie who was clueless about what kind of game Armageddon was, and I would go OOC and try to explain it to them, preferably somewhere secluded. Failing that ... I'd file a complaint.

Quote from: jhunter on September 06, 2009, 01:50:10 AM
Actually I don't see anywhere in the documentation where it states that -all- bards of the circle are required to be proficient with an instrument. Especially when reading through it that different groups specialize in different areas, some of which have nothing to do with instrumental performance. If you can show me documentation saying otherwise, I'd appreciate it.

As mushashi said, the information about what is required to achieve each rank in Poets' Circle is in the clan docs and/or in the bard forums. You will just have to take it from those of us who have played bards of Poets' Circle on this--there are at least 4 posting on this thread. You are also welcome to "look" at the instrument of any bard of Poets' Circle to see what charms are on it; if there is an instrument charm there, then that means the bard has mastered the instrument. If there is no instrument charm there, then I encourage you to ICly ask that bard (assuming your PC knows enough about Tuluki culture to ask) why s/he does not have an instrument charm. (Sometimes the imms are slow or forgetful to give them out, so not having a charm is not an indicator that the bard has not mastered that instrument.)

And -every- bard of -every- group in the circle is required to be proficient with an instrument?

Yes, that is what we are saying to you. That is a requirement for every bard of Apprentice rank in the Circle.

If that's the case, I don't think it makes sense considering that some of the groups of the circle specialize in other areas that have nothing to do with the playing of instruments. It's rather flawed.

At any rate, this change wouldn't affect just bards, as has been stated several times. So they'd start out with a higher skill at -one- instrument. They'd have to icly learn any others and non-bard performers would have to start from scratch wherever they started. There is still no logical reasoning for not having some of those skills coded like most things are coded for everyone else.

I'm done posting in this thread from here on out. I won't be convinced that at least some part of performance ability in a MUD should not be coded and I'm unable to convince those who disagree of otherwise.

None of the Circles specialize in combat, and yet there is an Arc of Blades which is necessary for advancement. Your logic now seems to be at the point where it just comes back around to "I OOCly dislike bards and I want more reasons to ICly hate on them."

I can't remember if we talked about this already in the thread, but I might be OK with a coded instrument skill if it led to ways for bards to make money. For example, you're at 50% skill, you go into a tavern and "perform song" (of course, with emotes and whatever) (or have a special stage location like LoD has proposed previously) and you get paid based on your skill. But if there's no actual benefit to the bard PC of the skill, then I totally cannot support it. It is already hard and unrewarding enough playing a bard.

And, if there was a coded instrument skill, then I think any failure messages would need to be mediated by the instrument skill of the listener. If you have 0% skill and I have 50%, you are not going to notice any mistakes I do make.

Not to sound like a twink, but if instruments had a code-base... I'd be all over playing a bard-type. I'm consider myself primarily a code-player.

Quote from: My 2 sids on September 05, 2009, 10:30:01 PM

Quote from: jcljules on September 05, 2009, 07:13:20 PM
Also, I don't generally judge bards based on their 'voices' or 'playing,' because both of those things don't really matter in a text-based environment. I like to see bards use them, but only as 'dressing.' Want to know how I judge bards? I judge them based on the content of their songs, poems and stories. Cause rhyme, meter and poetry take some out of character skill. And gathering stories to tell takes some in character work. And unlike someone emoting an instrumental performance, I can really appreciate a nice poem or a story.

First,  So you just don't want any instrumental bards in the game?  You want them all to be poetry, historical, or singing only?

Second,  Maybe I'm not understanding you here.  Who is "them"?   Because, when you're dealing with a strictly emoted/ non-skill-based PC  all you have to go on is the emoting ability of the PLAYER 


I would just like someone to explain to me why this as a coded skill is such a bad idea w/o the added arrogance of "anyone who uses a coded skill is a pathetic player who wants nothing more than power-game to build skills"

I didn't say that. Instrumental bards are fine. I find them less interesting than bards who compose poetry and write songs, but they add atmosphere and flavor to the game.

Them is PC bards. And no, you don't have to go on emoting ability, if the song has words.

I think everything I'd use as an argument has already been said. But I'd encourage people advocating for this code to try playing a Tuluki bard in the Circle. For more than like two hours. Or at least actually watch a few PC bards perform.

Quote from: Is Friday on September 06, 2009, 12:50:32 PM
Not to sound like a twink, but if instruments had a code-base... I'd be all over playing a bard-type. I'm consider myself primarily a code-player.

You don't have to wait!

Quote from: The DocsArcs of Learning

Bards achieve the status of Master Bard by mastering what are called the Arcs of Learning. Each Arc represents a basic area of knowledge, and a Master Bard will be skilled in each of the following:

Arc of Music: To master the Arc of Music, a bard must be able to play and create a musical instrument from each of the three major types: percussion, wind, and stringed.
Arc of Song: To master the Arc of Song, a bard must know the standard repertoire of songs, as well as being able to compose an impromptu song on any topic when challenged to do so.
Arc of Words: To master the Arc of Words, a bard must know the standard repertoire of stories, from the humorous to the historical, as well as being able to compose such. They must also have mastered the intricacies of Tuluki ettiquette, the gentle art of diplomacy, and speak at least one language beyond sirihish fluently.
Arc of Acting: To master the Arc of Acting, a bard must know the basics of the theater: performing, costuming, mimicry, make-up, and crowd-control. Traditionally, a bard must have performed a central role in at least one major theatrical performance.
Arc of Lore: To master the Arc of Lore, a bard must know both the history and geography of Zalanthas thoroughly, as well as demonstrate in-depth knowledge of at least one other area of specialized learning, such as herb-lore, a crafting skill, animal-training, etc.
Arc of Blades: To master the Arc of Blades, a bard must demonstrate her or himself competent with at least one weapon.

Bards have to skill grind as well; there are plenty of skills they're required to build up that are coded within the game already as part  their "job".

Besides, even if playing music was coded ... you would still have to deal with all that other stuff that isn't in bold anyway, using just your own wits and the emote feature. Unless folks would like to start complaining next that we need coded skills to represent acting ability, knowledge of geography, etiquette, diplomacy, and song composition.

Quote from: jhunter on September 06, 2009, 12:03:30 PM
If that's the case, I don't think it makes sense considering that some of the groups of the circle specialize in other areas that have nothing to do with the playing of instruments. It's rather flawed.

At any rate, this change wouldn't affect just bards, as has been stated several times. So they'd start out with a higher skill at -one- instrument. They'd have to icly learn any others and non-bard performers would have to start from scratch wherever they started. There is still no logical reasoning for not having some of those skills coded like most things are coded for everyone else.

I'm done posting in this thread from here on out. I won't be convinced that at least some part of performance ability in a MUD should not be coded and I'm unable to convince those who disagree of otherwise.

I have to disagree and say that, in my opinion, your logic is bias from the get go and thus ... that's what's flawed. Would it make sense for a Legion/Byn medic to have no combat ability whatsoever because they specalize in an area other than fighting? Of course it wouldn't, because the clan is people'd with soldiers first ... specalized people second. The bards of the Poet's Circle are no different. Bards first, specalized circles second.

Onto more of your apparently flawed logic ... I agree that there is no reason for not having some bard skills coded in game the same way other folks have their skills coded. Now just look up at the top of this post I just made ... I bolded all the parts that are hard coded skills for you for ease of reading. See? We already have lots of hard coded skills for bards, performing just isn't one of them.

Anyway, I won't lie, I am a little relieved you're done posting, I was starting to feel like a biologist trying to explain evolution to a youth earth creationist. It's hard to have a dialouge with someone who admits that they've made up their mind in advance and refuses to consider anything to the contrary no matter what, ever.

Anyway, as has already been said by myself and others, it's not that we're against the idea of coded musical aptitude at its core. It's just that with the way the code functions currently, I think it would be next to impossible to implement a music code that wasn't lame ... like our crafting code. For all the work that would be required to do coded music right, I think suggesting ideas for it in the Reborn forum would be a better bet. For now, folks who actually play bards seem happy enough just role-playing their performances out instead of relying on code to support them; and folks who hate bards ... well, they're going to keep hating them no matter how much code they do or don't have.

Sorry to resurrect an ancient thread, but I have a question. If none of the bard-specific aspects are coded (music, performance, etc.) then why choose the Bard subguild at all? What's to stop someone from picking something else, and roleplaying as a Bard anyway? (This is not meant as a dig to the subguild, just an honest question.)

Because it has some useful social skills.

However, indeed you don't need it to be a bard.

You can also pick the bard subguild and not be a bard.

Why would someone do that?

Usually because the skills suit whatever role they have in mind. What you can 'be' in Arm, is more diverse than the actual guilds and sub-guilds available. Though, looking at the bard description, it is a little harder to figure out than most of them, and could mislead a (newer) player into thinking that there were actual coded musical abilities.

Guilds and subguilds are just a collection of skills and don't really impose any expectations regarding your roleplaying.  The names of guilds and subguilds are mostly for our benefit so we can make sense of them.  Your character, however, doesn't know he has a guild or subguild.  At most, he knows he's good at some things and terrible at others.

No.

I NEED to be able to have my Amos learn to play the drums in four RL days and for Talia to not be able to master it until two game months and for Mal to never really get beyond the 'upper-okay' plateau, although she's been playing for three years.

This code change would take away from my roleplay and I do not like it.

Meh. I see no reason why we can't have our cake and eat it too. Why cant there be a coded musical skill that people could just ignore if they didn't want to use, and simply roleplay out. But was also there for those who want to feel their character progress in something that they don't have exact control over.

I once proposed a virtual skill system where people could make up their own skills. (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,21131.0.html)

Hmmm. Seems they didn't think of the cake analogy either.

Yeah, I don't know why you'd object to a system that was both completely invisible and optional.

I really like it.

From what I have seen from bards in Arm they mirror the real world counterpart
Being a successful one has little to do with "skill"
Sure it helps but only somewhat.
So some no name comes along emoting they are better than the better known bard around town, big deal.
Sounds like an excellent reason to hire an assassins who is dying to kill someone(90% of tuluk players)

It seems like a lot of code to prevent something that isn't really a problem because of the above point.

Excellent emoters have a benefit in every social aspect of this game not just music.
I bet they even attract Templars to torture them!
I will never have that problem so I am safe.

I had a Clerk in the AoD who was learning to play the lute as a hobby. He sucked, as he didn't know anything about music. I was going to have him slowly improve, but he died before he got that much better. It seemed that some people assumed that he was just naturally horrible and tone-deaf and a pain in the eardrums, but in fact he was just a pure beginner.

It was kind of funny, because I have OOCly been a musician for about 19 years. But yeah. I didn't need anything coded, personally. I liked the freedom that it gave to have this one 'skill' of his be purely RP. Plus you can take into account that a person who was trained from youth would have a much easier time and be able to become more advanced than someone who learned when he/she was older--something you can't really express codedly.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on December 11, 2012, 07:38:12 AM
Meh. I see no reason why we can't have our cake and eat it too. Why cant there be a coded musical skill that people could just ignore if they didn't want to use, and simply roleplay out. But was also there for those who want to feel their character progress in something that they don't have exact control over.

Substitute "coded musical skill" with "coded combat skill" and you'll have your answer.

In short: This isn't a mush.

That might be a valid argument if we currently had a coded music skill... but as we don't, it doesn't make a lot of sense, Lizzie.

Unless instruments can be used as weapons! Hehe?

*crickets*

I thought I posted here.

No. Just, no. No thank you.

Quote from: benegesseritwitch on December 17, 2012, 01:50:44 PM
Unless instruments can be used as weapons! Hehe?

*crickets*

We were having pretty much this exact conversation at my Pathfinder group this week.  Spear flute!!

But really, I'm with boog.  I wouldn't want people playing instruments to turn flavorless and boring (like combat is to me, to borrow an analogy).

Quote from: valeria on December 18, 2012, 08:04:30 AM

Quote from: benegesseritwitch on December 17, 2012, 01:50:44 PM
Unless instruments can be used as weapons! Hehe?

*crickets*

We were having pretty much this exact conversation at my Pathfinder group this week.  Spear flute!!

But really, I'm with boog.  I wouldn't want people playing instruments to turn flavorless and boring (like combat is to me, to borrow an analogy).

Heh, we need a music-emote command.

You can only use it while holding an instrument, and when you do the instrument checks your relevent instrument skill ... and then treats your emote like language code. So someday ... after years and years of practice ...

the tall, muscular man plays f jfyrei chsii meodpy os jdw ldte.

Can finally turn into

the tall, muscular man plays a pretty chill melody on his lute.

I find music emoting awkward and basically impossible in the first place. I think it'd be even weirder with a code behind it.

Try this exercise:
Watch a youtube video of someone performing a song. Like, a live performance video, where you can watch the musician playing his/her instrument.

Now - open a text editor and describe what you saw. In detail.

Describe his fingers on the fretboard - which fingers went where on which hand, the expression on his face with each shift of chord - which chord it was - major or minor? Was it a full step or a half-step up or down from the previous? Was it a full-on super-bass-led chord, an anticipitory diminished 7th, or a schmaltsy augmented 5th?

See what I mean? It's impossible to *describe* in text, instrumental performances. You can put a whole lot of adjectives into an editorial and describe the overall sound, and describe the audience's reaction, and describe the musician's intensity. But you can't describe the notes, or the actual physical movements of the musician's play on his instrument. I mean, you CAN - but it'd be a pretty dumb thing to try in game, because most people will get glossy-eyed before you finish describing the first stanza. The only people who are likely to stick around to watch, would be people well versed in the circle of fifths, musical notation, can read C, F, and G clef fluently, and know which fingers go on which strings, and what those strings are called. If there are 10 people playing Armageddon who know all these things, I'd be surprised.

(I know of me, Nyr, and Musashi who would likely fall into the category of "people who would actually understand the significance of the circle of fifths" - I don't know if there are 7 other people in the game who would understand that. Music is an unusual language).

I know at least 2 more. Reiloth and MarshallDFX.

Add Beethoven to the list.

Mmmmm. I don't think it's as hard as Lizzie suggests. It's possible to describe music well in the game without resorting to complicated terminology. It's just really hard.

It's not too hard to emote music.  Using actual music terms (barring those that are commonly known) isn't necessary.

All you have to do it construct a few metaphors and, dare I say, be a little more subjective than you might normally emote.

Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 18, 2012, 03:59:04 PM
It's not too hard to emote music.  Using actual music terms (barring those that are commonly known) isn't necessary.

All you have to do it construct a few metaphors and, dare I say, be a little more subjective than you might normally emote.

So, how do you express, using only text, this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVadl4ocX0M ?

Assume it's two musicians, each playing a renaissance lute, which exists in the game, according to the instrument's mdesc (it's not *named* a renaissance lute, but the description matches one).

And just so you don't cop out and say it's a complex piece of music - it's just a fugue. I had to play those when I was taking piano lessons, at age 10. They're very simplistic melodies, even though the resulting sound is complex and rich.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 18, 2012, 08:24:55 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 18, 2012, 03:59:04 PM
It's not too hard to emote music.  Using actual music terms (barring those that are commonly known) isn't necessary.

All you have to do it construct a few metaphors and, dare I say, be a little more subjective than you might normally emote.

So, how do you express, using only text, this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVadl4ocX0M ?

Assume it's two musicians, each playing a renaissance lute, which exists in the game, according to the instrument's mdesc (it's not *named* a renaissance lute, but the description matches one).

And just so you don't cop out and say it's a complex piece of music - it's just a fugue. I had to play those when I was taking piano lessons, at age 10. They're very simplistic melodies, even though the resulting sound is complex and rich.

I suppose my point is you describe the intention of the song, the mood it elicits, it's tempo, its tone, pitch, its feeling, and a lot more. But describing the actual sounds such that someone would understand what sort piece you're trying to mimic? Why? That does seems awkward, but I've never seen anyone try to pull it off in game.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 18, 2012, 08:24:55 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 18, 2012, 03:59:04 PM
It's not too hard to emote music.  Using actual music terms (barring those that are commonly known) isn't necessary.

All you have to do it construct a few metaphors and, dare I say, be a little more subjective than you might normally emote.

So, how do you express, using only text, this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVadl4ocX0M ?

Assume it's two musicians, each playing a renaissance lute, which exists in the game, according to the instrument's mdesc (it's not *named* a renaissance lute, but the description matches one).

And just so you don't cop out and say it's a complex piece of music - it's just a fugue. I had to play those when I was taking piano lessons, at age 10. They're very simplistic melodies, even though the resulting sound is complex and rich.

That's probably the biggest strawman I've seen outside of a cornfield.  "How do you express this thing that has no analog in the world that we play in?"  The players that may desire to see a player use only text to express something "musical" with no lyrical content can probably be counted on one hand, starting and ending with the middle finger.  If I want to watch someone solo RP, I'll turn on monitor and echo something unusual in the room with them; this usually causes even the most jaded veteran to perk right up and start emoting at the least fun tasks.  When we create a bardic circle devoted solely to duets of instrumental renaissance lute wanking bereft of any lyrical content, then we can figure out what is needed here.  There's something to be said for events requiring the background music of a bard (and no singing), but the key point there is background music.  You're not reproducing melodies via text.  You're an extra emote between someone else's conversation that is way more important than what you're doing.

You're right, I do get the musical allusions and can speak to circle of fifths stuff.  However, I am able to put that aside and recognize that the general idea of music in the game is to back up storytelling and the lyrical content that players have put together.  In Tuluk, that means a song or a story with both overt and second meanings.  In either city-state, it might mean a fairly amusing song that you can laugh at in-game and also in real life.  In a tribe, you might have someone knocking on some drums as background music for a celebration where people are dancing to the music instead. 

This isn't to say that the emotes around a bard's musical endeavors are unnecessary.  They are important.  They just aren't so important that you have to adequately reproduce real-life music theory in every painstaking emote that you craft.  Use some resources to learn about music, read up on music on the website here, and make a good effort if that is what you want to do with your PC.  However, don't worry so much about making your music emotes annoyingly perfect, and don't agonize over the fact that you can't think of the best way to explain the trill you did on your flute.  In fact, if you are having trouble coming up with an emoted analog for what you're doing on the instrument your PC is playing...and you really find it impossible...don't do it.  "It" might be that emote, that part of the song, that song, or playing a musical character in the first place.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 18, 2012, 08:24:55 PM

Quote from: Marauder Moe on December 18, 2012, 03:59:04 PM
It's not too hard to emote music.  Using actual music terms (barring those that are commonly known) isn't necessary.

All you have to do it construct a few metaphors and, dare I say, be a little more subjective than you might normally emote.

So, how do you express, using only text, this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVadl4ocX0M ?

Assume it's two musicians, each playing a renaissance lute, which exists in the game, according to the instrument's mdesc (it's not *named* a renaissance lute, but the description matches one).

And just so you don't cop out and say it's a complex piece of music - it's just a fugue. I had to play those when I was taking piano lessons, at age 10. They're very simplistic melodies, even though the resulting sound is complex and rich.

Let's take a quick stab at it...
The tall muscular man starts to pluck a stately, but faintly somber, melody from his lute.

The tall muscular man's brow knits in concentration as the notes rise and fall gracefully and with greater frequency.

The lithe, blue-eyed woman starts to play her lute as well, echoing the song's stately beginning.

For a brief time, the tall muscular man switches roles with the lithe, blue-eyed woman, playing the counterpoint while her swift fingers take the lead.

The thick swarthy dwarf takes up his bass lute, his rich notes adding a layer of grandeur to the piece.

The tell muscular man leans back as he trills some of the higher notes from his instrument, then starts to pinch both melody and counterpoint from the strings.

Clear notes rise and fall elegantly from the lithe, blue-eyed woman's lute.

After a pause, the thick swarthy dwarf's bass sounds out again, underscoring the intertwining melodies of the tall muscular man and the lithe, blue-eyed woman.

The tall muscular man's instrument hums with sound, the music dancing around the lithe, blue-eyed woman's own performance.

The thick, swarthy dwarf's majestic notes join in the dance, all three musicians taking turn as lead melody.

The lithe, blue-eyed woman sways as her fingers flit across the strings.  Her music rises and falls, dashes as the lead and retreats into harmony.

After another rest, the thick, swarthy dwarf joins back in for the finale.

The tall muscular man's lute rings with sound, the notes dancing precisely.  All three players unify for the stately theme of the song ending on a majestic chord.

Though as a bard I'd try and prepare my best performances ahead of time, being a bit more poetic and descriptive.

Great depiction, MM.

Yeah, it's totally possible. At my university, in the Arts 101 class that every freshman is required to take, one of the major assignments was to attend any of the concerts held on campus and to write a description/analysis. This is a university primarily known for its computer science/engineering programs. If those guys could pass an assignment where they had to write a paper describing a piece of music, emoting a music performance is definitely within reach of probably every Armageddon player.