Once city elf tribes (what tribes?) become a thing again, they will have metal katanas and secret elf magickers of doom and a coded zipline system to traverse the city in two seconds flat.
It has been a year to implement something which could plausibly be done in a week. It is the only explanation that makes any sense at all.
Quote from: Patuk on September 28, 2014, 05:49:39 PM
It has been a year to implement something which could plausibly be done in a week.
::)
Quote from: Patuk on September 28, 2014, 05:49:39 PM
It has been a year to implement something which could plausibly be done in a week. It is the only explanation that makes any sense at all.
Quote from: Nyr on April 30, 2013, 03:23:54 PM
There will always be a disconnect between what players want and what staff wants. In between the two is what staff is willing to work on, but currently is unable to do (due to existing work, focus on other areas, etc). Even with player assistance there is a bottleneck of staff work that is not insignificant, despite any claims that it is not all that hard to code up a tribe and give it documentation. (I know you weren't saying it is a cakewalk, but we do apply a lot more review to tribal documentation these days--you might notice that in any of the revamped tribes out there.)
It has been a year in which other things have definitely been implemented, but not this thing that you are desiring. That sucks for you and for the things that you want to see, and that is a tough thing to see in any environment, especially a game that you've invested time into and want to see grow in a particular way. Unfortunately, this is something everyone will need to get used to on a general level. You won't always get the thing you want in a timely manner (sometimes, not at all, depending on what it is). If possible, one way to look at it would be to try to understand the reasons why it is either a) not a top priority, b) more difficult to enact than you think it is, or c) just not something staff is willing to look at. Seeing as how I pulled that quote from a thread about delves, staff isn't blind to the player interest in elven tribes seeing some change/life/etc. We have discussed this issue before staff-side and there has even been some more recent talk about solutions.
However, we've also discussed the issue of revealing things before their time, and this is one of those areas where (unfortunately) all you would really get to see from us is an acknowledgement that yeah, this sucks at this time.
I don't want a debate on these terms again. I think I'd rather stay facetious.
Quote from: Nyr on September 28, 2014, 06:14:23 PM
Quote from: Patuk on September 28, 2014, 05:49:39 PM
It has been a year to implement something which could plausibly be done in a week. It is the only explanation that makes any sense at all.
Quote from: Nyr on April 30, 2013, 03:23:54 PM
There will always be a disconnect between what players want and what staff wants. In between the two is what staff is willing to work on, but currently is unable to do (due to existing work, focus on other areas, etc). Even with player assistance there is a bottleneck of staff work that is not insignificant, despite any claims that it is not all that hard to code up a tribe and give it documentation. (I know you weren't saying it is a cakewalk, but we do apply a lot more review to tribal documentation these days--you might notice that in any of the revamped tribes out there.)
It has been a year in which other things have definitely been implemented, but not this thing that you are desiring. That sucks for you and for the things that you want to see, and that is a tough thing to see in any environment, especially a game that you've invested time into and want to see grow in a particular way. Unfortunately, this is something everyone will need to get used to on a general level. You won't always get the thing you want in a timely manner (sometimes, not at all, depending on what it is). If possible, one way to look at it would be to try to understand the reasons why it is either a) not a top priority, b) more difficult to enact than you think it is, or c) just not something staff is willing to look at. Seeing as how I pulled that quote from a thread about delves, staff isn't blind to the player interest in elven tribes seeing some change/life/etc. We have discussed this issue before staff-side and there has even been some more recent talk about solutions.
However, we've also discussed the issue of revealing things before their time, and this is one of those areas where (unfortunately) all you would really get to see from us is an acknowledgement that yeah, this sucks at this time.
TL;DR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--OA0y9448s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--OA0y9448s)
oh god Bushranger thanks now I'm going to be on a Glee soundtrack spree
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/6e/6e5a8cad178e65f58dc01219891da8a953d94d97ef0a712feb3c2d8430e45c4c.jpg)
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 28, 2014, 06:27:47 PM
Is this a case of too many cooks spoil the soup, or that the kitchen is understaffed?
I was making the case for "neither". To use your example, the soup desired is not on the menu. The restaurant took it off of the menu. They have other soups. You might not like them, but that's okay, people like what they want to like. They've also said they want to bring that soup back, but it might have a new recipe that better fits the tastes of the restaurant.
Also, the meal is free, the cooks aren't paid, and you have to bring some of your own cooking supplies if you want a stellar meal.
Quote from: Nyr on September 28, 2014, 07:09:08 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 28, 2014, 06:27:47 PM
Is this a case of too many cooks spoil the soup, or that the kitchen is understaffed?
I was making the case for "neither". To use your example, the soup desired is not on the menu. The restaurant took it off of the menu. They have other soups. You might not like them, but that's okay, people like what they want to like. They've also said they want to bring that soup back, but it might have a new recipe that better fits the tastes of the restaurant.
I'll bring the scrab steaks.
Well, maybe if we talk about it enough it'll get put back on the menu, because yeah, city elf clans would be sweet.
There's that, too.
So city elves = Mcrib?
Quote from: Nyr on September 28, 2014, 07:09:08 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 28, 2014, 06:27:47 PM
Is this a case of too many cooks spoil the soup, or that the kitchen is understaffed?
I was making the case for "neither". To use your example, the soup desired is not on the menu. The restaurant took it off of the menu. They have other soups. You might not like them, but that's okay, people like what they want to like. They've also said they want to bring that soup back, but it might have a new recipe that better fits the tastes of the restaurant.
Also, the meal is free, the cooks aren't paid, and you have to bring some of your own cooking supplies if you want a stellar meal.
This just in: Doctors without borders volunteers no longer doing medicine because of heavy workload, decide to run pharmacy instead due to easier hours: Program ceases, because volunteers run it and program is dropped.
To be fair, they do receive funding. Maybe we should start donating to Arm.
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 28, 2014, 07:59:06 PM
To be fair, they do receive funding. Maybe we should start donating to Arm.
You guys fund it with all the insane hours you put in it.
You guys are volunteers too, don't ever think that Staff shouldn't be as grateful to have you as you are to have them.
Quote from: Armaddict on September 28, 2014, 07:56:08 PM
This just in: Doctors without borders volunteers no longer doing medicine because of heavy workload, decide to run pharmacy instead due to easier hours: Program ceases, because volunteers run it and program is dropped.
I love this game, but you just compared it to something actually important. It's a great hobby, but it's not saving lives.
As for the time involved, this (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,47159.msg810120.html#msg810120) is what it took just to add some echoes and different text for the weather command. Good thread to review.
I speak from experience in that it's -not- easy to do coding at all. It's a complicated pain in the ass process especially on less forgiving MUD codebases.
Building is just as difficult. You guys make it seem like it's easy to build, but when you build you also have to link those built rooms to the appropriate areas, which takes a lot of time. Designing an item isn't easy either. You have to set its ldesc, sdesc, mdesc, make sure its stats are balanced based on the type of item it is, set the price for the item (accounting for haggle prices), and do the weight properly. Plus you have to make sure it fits the world theme AND there's a need for the item.
If you're a builder, a low level builder, this usually means you're talking with higher level staff before you even implement the item, and in that situation you have to make a case for why you think that item will add more flavor to the game. You have to account for who the item is meant for, what region, what sect of people, if it's a rare item or a common item.
Rooms are the same way. Who is the room meant for? Some joe schmoe who happens to go exploring Region X to find Item Y and happens to stumble across this new Area Z (the name of my next zombie game)?
Or is it meant to flesh out an area that everyone else goes to? Will the room add a significant flavor to the game? Is it just filler? Is the description of the room up to standard? Will it have mobs? Items? Forageables?
Forageables have to be added individually to areas too. What can be foraged in this area, if anything? What hidden areas might there be? Why does this item exist?
Stop being so selfish and take two seconds to go build a MUD. Try building 500 rooms. Try building 30 rooms. It takes a lot of time and effort to do this, and it's draining.
Eh..I have noticed lots of little additions lately. I'm content for now. That being said PC gith. ;)
Quote from: Inks on September 28, 2014, 08:33:09 PM
Eh..I have noticed lots of little additions lately. I'm content for now. That being said PC gith. ;)
Another good one.
What do PC gith offer to the pbase that players can't already perform?
Quote from: Inks on September 28, 2014, 08:33:09 PM
Eh..I have noticed lots of little additions lately. I'm content for now. That being said PC gith. ;)
Same.
Quote from: Saellyn on September 28, 2014, 08:34:21 PM
Quote from: Inks on September 28, 2014, 08:33:09 PM
Eh..I have noticed lots of little additions lately. I'm content for now. That being said PC gith. ;)
Another good one.
What do PC gith offer to the pbase that players can't already perform?
It's really hard to play a PC raider without coded/staff support
PC gith would bring a lot to the game by adding actual constant danger in the wilds. Staff supported raiders is better than not as they would have a coded home base and not be a temporary thing like current raiders. Ever present danger.
Also an alien tribal mindset unlike anything else would be fantastic and create conflict for desert elves and human tribals alike.
Idk about PC gith. Staff-sponsored raiders, sure, so they can still go in the cities and maybe hodge-podge once in a while if their gith clannies aren't online.
Quote from: Inks on September 28, 2014, 08:40:19 PM
PC gith would bring a lot to the game by adding actual constant danger in the wilds. Staff supported raiders is better than not as they would have a coded home base and not be a temporary thing like current raiders. Ever present danger.
So constant and ever-present danger, with a coded location that supports their growth. Okay. What karma level, if any, should Gith be? How many should be allowed in game at one time? What kind of concepts are allowed in the Gith, and what kinds of concepts aren't? What kind of documentation would you need to fully flesh out a playable Gith race?
Quote from: Inks on September 28, 2014, 08:40:19 PM
PC gith would bring a lot to the game by adding actual constant danger in the wilds. Staff supported raiders is better than not as they would have a coded home base and not be a temporary thing like current raiders. Ever present danger.
Also an alien tribal mindset unlike anything else would be fantastic and create conflict for desert elves and human tribals alike.
3/4 of the playerbase can't come to grasp with the elven mentality, can you imagine the gith one?
Shit, with the playerbase we have we're pretty lucky that some of them actually manage to rp a semi-functional human being hah hah hah.
Sounds like halflings in the North.
I'd be a lot more inclined to agree if the PC celf tribal structure wasn't already in place, Saellyn. There are two tribes that functioned, and now do not, for reasons that Nyr has told us will not be disclosed. Couple that with the amount of people offering to help out with the building effort everytime any project is mentioned, and I really don't think the issue here is 'building is hard.'
Quote from: Patuk on September 28, 2014, 08:52:45 PM
I'd be a lot more inclined to agree if the PC celf tribal structure wasn't already in place, Saellyn. There are two tribes that functioned, and now do not, for reasons that Nyr has told us will not be disclosed. Couple that with the amount of people offering to help out with the building effort everytime any project is mentioned, and I really don't think the issue here is 'building is hard.'
Offering to help and actually building are two very different things. Like I said, I have experience with it. No amount of offered help is going to make the job any easier staff side.
The problem with getting help is now suddenly you have people who have designed the rooms, who aren't on staff, who have a leg up because they know about an area that other people don't. That's not fair.
Quote from: Patuk on September 28, 2014, 08:52:45 PM
I'd be a lot more inclined to agree if the PC celf tribal structure wasn't already in place, Saellyn. There are two tribes that functioned, and now do not, for reasons that Nyr has told us will not be disclosed. Couple that with the amount of people offering to help out with the building effort everytime any project is mentioned, and I really don't think the issue here is 'building is hard.'
You definitely have some strong opinions. We acknowledge that. Thank you for offering your opinions that differ from the staff view expressed here or elsewhere. We appreciate it! :)
Do you really? :smiley face:
I've personally been involved in that C-elf structure way back (I played a Jaxa Pah type) and it really didn't add anything big to the Rinth at all. If you want a C-elf tribe, I'd suggest proposing it to staff with documentation and how they would act, things they would do, how they react to certain situations. The issue with the Jaxa Pah is that they were so niche that nobody -really- wanted to play them, and it was -really- hard to actually get into the Jaxa Pah (which is normal for elves, but I digress).
The Jaxa Pah offered nothing that the Guild didn't already offer.
I think the Jaxa Pah added the Guild for the elves, didn't they? Are elves allowed in the Guild?
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 28, 2014, 09:06:47 PM
I think the Jaxa Pah added the Guild for the elves, didn't they? Are elves allowed in the Guild?
I... think they might be now? I'm not sure.
OK, thread created. This is the one for discussing city-elves this time around. You can find the previous discussions in a few places. I'll link those up shortly.
There's really nothing to discuss. Allowing city elf characters in the game without a coded clan for them to be part of is ridiculous, but we had a giant thread about that in the past where a few said you could make up a virtual clan and many agreed that this was even more ridiculous because you can't virtually represent the backing of an elf clan which is what makes the strength of an elf to begin with, his or her clan.
Either create a damned clan already or tell Patuk to shut it :)
:)
Gith already have documentation and quite extensive docs from what I understand, to answer your question Saellyn. And three karma would be fine.
Quote from: Inks on September 28, 2014, 09:31:16 PM
Gith already have documentation and quite extensive docs from what I understand. to answer your question Saellyn. And three karma would be fine.
No they don't.
Please don't pick and choose what part of my post to answer. Go for broke or go home. I'm making you do the work that staff would have to do to implement gith as a playable pc race.
Quote from: Adhira on September 28, 2014, 09:32:21 PM
Quote from: Inks on September 28, 2014, 09:31:16 PM
Gith already have documentation and quite extensive docs from what I understand. to answer your question Saellyn. And three karma would be fine.
No they don't.
So right back at you. What sort of documentation do Gith need to be a fully fleshed out, playable PC race? This is the same with elves. It has to work, within the defined structure of Gith society. You have to create their mindset, their rituals, their beliefs, their everything. You have to DESIGN this -entire- race.
How many can play it? 3 karma players? Okay. How many 3 karma players or special apps or whatnot are ALLOWED to play the Gith at one time? How many PCs can there be? What kind of gear do they wear? Weapons? How do they use them? I know for a fact the desert elf tribes, and even some elf tribes, had "fighting styles" rpwise that they would use, and a focus on what made their societies thrive.
Ah I always assumed from those Gith logs. I retract the first statement.
Also be less trollish Saline.
On topic: City elf clans go. Having played some before this would be great.
Quote from: Inks on September 28, 2014, 09:35:38 PM
Ah I always assumed from those Gith logs. I retract the first statement.
Also be less trollish Saline.
On topic: City elf clans go. Having played some before this would be great.
It is on topic, this is city-elves "and stuff". I'm not trolling.
It's Sailin'. Not Saline.
I think that clan documentation can be changed just fine. If Tuluk can get noble Houses scrapped in enormous public displays, others getting their structure altered, have templar orders merge, and have an ancient caste of nobility removed, I think the Jaxa Pah can be made more playable without any coded building needing to be done,
Also, no, the Guild does not allow elves. If you're an elf, go join Kurac or the Byn. Then be that guy nobody likes because they hold up everyone since they insist on walking goddammit Jim just get a beetle.
Freaking half-elves have more clan opportunities than elves do. I have seen half-elf legionnaires. Non-Kuraci GMH occasionally hire them as well, which is something I can see happening a little more plausibly.
But the fact of the matter is that a race that is virtually immenselypopulated and widespread is consistently also the race with the fewest amount of citybound players. Tweaking isn't what is needed for them, celves need boosting. The removal of their tribes is just one of many incentives people have not to play elves,
Quote from: Saellyn on September 28, 2014, 09:06:02 PM
I've personally been involved in that C-elf structure way back (I played a Jaxa Pah type) and it really didn't add anything big to the Rinth at all. If you want a C-elf tribe, I'd suggest proposing it to staff with documentation and how they would act, things they would do, how they react to certain situations. The issue with the Jaxa Pah is that they were so niche that nobody -really- wanted to play them, and it was -really- hard to actually get into the Jaxa Pah (which is normal for elves, but I digress).
The Jaxa Pah offered nothing that the Guild didn't already offer.
I think a lot of people wanted to play in the Jaxa.
It's just the fact that joining after chargen was basically impossible and you couldn't app in, despite that being the logical way. The same thing applies to the Akai Sjir.
I did app into the Akai Sjir, and some others did as well. I can't comment on the Jaxa Pah.
I can see how the Jaxa Pah would have it hard, though. They'd have all the recruiting issues the Guild has coupled with elven paranoia and testing. Good luck.
Previous allanaki city elf thread -- http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46421.375.html
Something asked there that wasn't answered officially by staff was
What happened to the Jaxa Pah?
The answer is that it was closed. It was closed because it doesn't really fit with the mold of what we want to see out of city-elf tribal roles. It set itself up as a more dominant power than it was. It erased several smaller groups and emerged as a powerhouse. It shouldn't have been one. After one tackle of the documentation to try and bind this tribe together consisting of multiple tribes and concepts all in one, it was closed and tabled for later discussion.
What happened to the Akai Sjir?
The answer is that it was closed. It was closed because it also didn't really fit with that mold we wanted to see for city-elf tribes. In that particular case it had other documentation issues that made it difficult. In a word, they were too civilized. To elaborate further, they were too much like a merchant house and not enough like an elven tribe. The docs were tackled here, too, but there is only so much a documentation overhaul can do without doing IC changes that would merit serious change. As player interest waned in the clan, we decided to eventually close the clan as well.
Sometimes new things get tried and they don't work. That happens and it sucks, but when it happens we learn from it. Sometimes going back to the old way of doing things works, and sometimes it doesn't. There is currently a definitive project to open/reopen city-elf tribes, taking into account the things we've learned from the above and apply them to any city-elf group that exists in the future. Why hasn't it been done yet? Sometimes, life and stuff happens, and a clan group might end up with less staffers than usual. That had been the case for quite a while for that particular group as it was rolling with one admin and one ST. I know all too well that when a clan group is short staffed, it is tough to focus on new projects in favor of supporting existing clans and existing players. In this case, that team definitely needed more support before it had more responsibility put upon it for such a task. It is getting that support now (you may have seen the 6 new/former STs we brought on board, they're tooling around). This particular project will be picked up. And it probably won't be done as fast as you want or in the way that you want.
So that's why.
Also, while staff and players refer to those population stats on the GDB, I'm pretty sure it's not official documentation-worthy stuff. It really needs a look so that it can be (if need be) put into official documentation.
Some official numbers would be lovely, yes. it isn't too big of a deal, though,
Just wanted to say I enjoyed reading that response. Cheers.
Here's the thing that frustrates me about the city-elf hiatus: you can't even make up for it on your own. You can do an elf family role call, but you can't say that your family is part of a virtual tribe. This makes me go ??? It seems completely contrary to everything elf.
NO TRIBES
(http://bizbloggingbuzz.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/no-tribes-shaded.png)
Fuck elves.
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 28, 2014, 10:05:07 PM
NO TRIBES
I can parse language with the best of them. My argument against that particular interpretation of the family role call rule is is that you're not creating a tribe, you're creating a family. All of your elven family members still have to be within one degree of affinity of each other or whatever. Maybe the rule should be, your elven family tribe can't be larger than your starting family, but your elven family should still be able to call its blood relatives tribe mates.
All elves have tribes, it's in the documentation. By permitting elven family role calls but not allowing them to call themselves tribemates, it effectively forbids players from doing a family role call for an elven family.
Quote from: valeria on September 28, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 28, 2014, 10:05:07 PM
NO TRIBES
I can parse language with the best of them. My argument against that particular interpretation of the family role call rule is is that you're not creating a tribe, you're creating a family. All of your elven family members still have to be within one degree of affinity of each other or whatever. Maybe the rule should be, your elven family tribe can't be larger than your starting family, but your elven family should still be able to call its blood relatives tribe mates.
All elves have tribes, it's in the documentation. By permitting elven family role calls but not allowing them to call themselves tribemates, it effectively forbids players from doing a family role call for an elven family.
no
all elves have tribes, or want tribes, except your elves, because you have to follow the documentation that says that even though elves are tribal and want tribes and belong in tribes you can't have a tribe
tribe
Wait, hold on
NO TRIBES
^
non-virtual
Oh I misread something. Virtual tribes cool then?
Yes. Virtual as in your pc does not get to be a part of one, ever. Like slaves, aod captains, or tribeless delves.
I'd kind of prefer to see tribal elves driven into the cities, and erase the racial difference, ie: elves are elves are elves. Then we have set up and established staff-supported elven tribes in the cities, filling that role. Now, replace PC tribal desert elves with PC gith, a natural predatory force. Gith at least do something other than think about eating, as PC mantis had to do to be RPed correctly.
Quote from: Saellyn on September 28, 2014, 08:12:53 PM
If you're a builder, a low level builder, this usually means you're talking with higher level staff before you even implement the item, and in that situation you have to make a case for why you think that item will add more flavor to the game. You have to account for who the item is meant for, what region, what sect of people, if it's a rare item or a common item.
I suspect you've hit on a real issue here. We (Storytellers of long ago) had a lot more freedom to build in days past. Securing agreement from a list of people is extremely challenging in any environment. It might mean a certain uniformity is maintained, but it has its cost.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 28, 2014, 11:07:37 PM
I'd kind of prefer to see tribal elves driven into the cities, and erase the racial difference, ie: elves are elves are elves. Then we have set up and established staff-supported elven tribes in the cities, filling that role. Now, replace PC tribal desert elves with PC gith, a natural predatory force. Gith at least do something other than think about eating, as PC mantis had to do to be RPed correctly.
I really like this idea.
Players already have enough issues with clans that are iso but minimally so. Gith would be absolutely iso. But you'd see PC gith sitting in Red Storm, having an ale.
Speaking of PC Gith, I think if Gith were tolerated in Red Storm Village again (History time: Some of the hooded npcs in Red Storm village used to be gith! It was part of the whole 'mind your own business' vibe of the village that I really love) then I think PC Gith as a tribe could work well. You've the desert raiding tribe that everyone wants and there is a place and a way for them to interact with others in a less than stab-face way.
As for elves I don't think desert elf tribes need to close but I think it would be a great idea if those tribes were tied to the city. I've spoken before about a hybrid city-desert tribe and I think that would work really well to have some elf presence in the cities! The Sun Runners are a Tablelands tribe that takes it's goods to market in Allanak there is a small portion of the tribe in that city to maintain the trading connection but, being elven, they're usually in the lawless 'rinth. The Soh Lanah Kah take their goods to Tuluk for trade in the tribal markets and there are usually a few from their tribe watching over the trade there. Neither are particularly fond of the city and the city is not particularly fond of them but hey, they're elves and never were anyway!
This gives city elves an option to be in a tribe: they're looking after tribe concerns in the cities, protecting the traders, stealing from the city folk (haha!). It also gives the desert elves a reason to go to one of the cities and interact with people there. I don't think having a small contingent of the desert elf tribes trading in the cities goes against any documentation either. Tuluk has an entire market dedicated to tribal trade.
What I think, in essence, is that the game needs a few more sweeping, world-shaking changes with how some of the culture is.
I wouldn't mind gith being added. I think there are a few other settlements where it makes complete sense for them to create a semi-cooperative outpost with escaped muls. Both escaped muls and free gith are equally reviled by the main establishments, muls have a massive benefit to being able to speak common sirihish, muls also have less to fear from gith being unbelievably capable fighters. I am not sure gith need to be around in red storm, though, that in my mind is a problem; the Kuracis, for instance, have a long standing hatred of gith, and are very present in Red Storm.
They're as present as Salarr or Kadius.
City elves are basically a city-based iso role at the moment.
One where it takes a veneer of an ic excuse to pk.
As much as I love city elves, you can't really play one that isn't 'rinthi anymore.
Quote from: Saellyn on September 28, 2014, 11:43:21 PM
They're as present as Salarr or Kadius.
In Red Storm? Maybe codedly yes, but at least in my experience, there have been far more "let's go to red storm" trips as a Kuraci than as salarris (can't speak for Kadius). Again, in my experience; players in GMH can choose to emphasize red storm more or less, but the availability of raw spice and the absence of a noble culture to fawn over Kadian products make Kurac > Kadius for sure, and the absence of a major military organization (byn, Arm of Dragon, Legions) makes Salarr more likely to go to Allanak or Tuluk for business.
This isn't a thread about gith. Gith PCs aren't going to happen, deal with it.
I don't think gith would really fit the mold of what they want to see.
Quote from: Malken on September 28, 2014, 11:52:19 PM
This isn't a thread about gith. Gith PCs aren't going to happen, deal with it.
This whole thread isn't going to happen, at least not as a result of this thread, so I can talk about whatever I want to within the topic of city elves "and stuff." I don't see anything new in this thread of significance about city elves/desert elves that wasn't in the much longer thread from not long ago, which also had a lot of good ideas that "aren't going to happen, deal with it."
Right, which makes me think that this whole thread is just for us to yap our mouths until we tire of this topic and move on. It gives us the illusion that our thoughts and ideas matter heheh.
Politics 101.
I enjoyed your ideas Harmless. Finally I am not the only one aboard the Gith train. Toot toot!
Threads like these show an ugly side to GDBers that I rarely like seeing.
Also Malken, the ground you stand on will be much firmer when you actually play the game again. Not hating on you not playing the game (we all have our reasons), but most of your posts involve 'fuck the man' without offering much helpful criticism.
Reminds me of people who talk about politics day in and day out but don't vote.
Saying the community's thoughts don't matter is true in the short term. Over the long term, and especially if accompanied by some kind of IC action, they might. I'm willing to risk typing a few ideas out into the void for the chance that it might stick eventually, because this is a free game and I literally have nothing to lose.
Gith PCs would be fun. Red Fangs were fun. Blackmoon was fun. City Elf tribes were fun.
Fun is the only justification anyone needs to do anything. I wish all this bureaucratic, red tape bullshit would go away and Arma would return to a game where the defining paradigm was "Fuck yes, that sounds awesome, let's do it!"
Armageddon is not Agrestic. It's not a precision engine. It doesn't need to be master planned. All it needs is talented, dedicated storytellers that are given creative freedom to bring the world to life.
Armageddon reminds me a lot of Austin. Austin was built by creatives - eccentric, brilliant, spastic dreamers. The city developed a unique culture. That culture attracted hordes of desktop support specialists, most of the creatives moved out, and the greatness that was once Austin is now a caricature of itself.
I criticize because I care, but I guess you can't go home again.
I don't know about gith. It may or may not be a good idea. It'd be fun, certainly, but I(and most of you) have no clue at all how their culture works, and implementing them may take a lot of work.
I do think a lot of issues could be solved by the Soh being allowed to leave the ass end of the world now and then.
Quote from: manonfire on September 29, 2014, 08:23:24 AM
Fun is the only justification anyone needs to do anything. I wish all this bureaucratic, red tape bullshit would go away and Arma would return to a game where the defining paradigm was "Fuck yes, that sounds awesome, let's do it!"
Armageddon is not Agrestic. It's not a precision engine. It doesn't need to be master planned. All it needs is talented, dedicated storytellers that are given creative freedom to bring the world to life.
Those are some interesting theories on how the game should be played and staffed. Thanks!
Quote from: Nyr on September 29, 2014, 09:13:58 AM
Quote from: manonfire on September 29, 2014, 08:23:24 AM
Fun is the only justification anyone needs to do anything. I wish all this bureaucratic, red tape bullshit would go away and Arma would return to a game where the defining paradigm was "Fuck yes, that sounds awesome, let's do it!"
Armageddon is not Agrestic. It's not a precision engine. It doesn't need to be master planned. All it needs is talented, dedicated storytellers that are given creative freedom to bring the world to life.
Those are some interesting theories on how the game should be played and staffed. Thanks!
Thanks in turn for the forbearance.
Quote from: valeria on September 28, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 28, 2014, 10:05:07 PM
NO TRIBES
I can parse language with the best of them. My argument against that particular interpretation of the family role call rule is is that you're not creating a tribe, you're creating a family. All of your elven family members still have to be within one degree of affinity of each other or whatever. Maybe the rule should be, your elven family tribe can't be larger than your starting family, but your elven family should still be able to call its blood relatives tribe mates.
All elves have tribes, it's in the documentation. By permitting elven family role calls but not allowing them to call themselves tribemates, it effectively forbids players from doing a family role call for an elven family.
Start a clan request, show the staff that you want to demonstrate your 'tribe' and their agendas within the game world and any currently running plots. I mean, if you -really- want to play a celf with a close-knit group/tribe, there's literally nothing stopping you from doing it. Just because two coded clans close for applications, doesn't mean you can't still roleplay it.
It would literally take you a week of playtime and some charisma to achieve your goal(depending on how assertive/creative you get). If you find yourself feeling, "Hey, this actually a lot of work," or "I don't have time to see this through", or "There's other important things that need more attention". Well.....That's probably how staff feel about c-elf tribes at the moment.
Oops! Double.
No, you actually cannot roleplay your city elf with a tribe.
This is literally not allowed unless you join the Byn or Kurac and call them your tribe.
My thoughts on this...
Dark Sun (comprising a large part of Armageddon's source material) turned many of the D&D fantasy tropes on their head: DEFILING magick, BALD dwarves, VICIOUS halflings, and tall, tan elves that wander, steal, and live in the moment (leading drastically shorter lifespans than their familiar counterparts). These 'twists' are part of what makes Dark Sun (and correspondingly Armageddon) such a fresh setting.
(http://dirtydoris.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/1105889576_elf.jpg)(http://burntlands.wdfiles.com/local--files/races/Elf%20-%20DS%20f%20running%20%5BDSCC%5D.jpg)
Armageddon has taken this bastardization of the elf one step further and introduced a city-bound variety, which is effectively a parasitic, alley and rooftop-dwelling, humanoid rat. This is some
awesome original content and, in my opinion, one of the game's many "national treasures".
Do these city elves *need* tribes? I am of the (maybe unpopular) opinion that it is a good thing that players can create one of these City Elves outside of a tribe. First, throwing newish players (especially first-timers) into a tribe would place immediate and intense constraints on their roleplay (in addition to distrust, no riding + limited travel ability, being a third-class citizen, and a prediliction to steal). Too many constraints and the role might become unfun to play - it may be unable to generate a critical mass of player interest.
Second, this may be an opportunity to further develop and distinguish the OC that is the Armageddon city elf, e.g.:
Quote
The elven tribal mentality tends to erode in the face of the scale and the oppression of city life. In the desert, the elf is the king of his tribal home -- but in the city the elf is a third-class citizen, often (and much to his chagrin) held in less esteem than even a half-elf. Some elves do cling to tradition and forge tribes in the cities, but family infighting tends to be the norm, rather than the exception in these cases.
It is interesting, then, to observe that a surrogate tribal mentality emerges: a city-bound elf will tend to side with another elf from the same city or settlement before any other. These alliances are loose at best, and trust still tends to come slowly, but tests of competency (can you run? can you steal? are you cautious?) are more common than tests of trust, since a certain affinity already exists.
But clans aren't tribes. It would be cool if city elves had more clans available to them.
As has been discussed in prior discussions, there are no tribes but there are crews. A crew is exactly that quote: a surrogate tribal mentality.
I recently had some fun with a city elf who benefited from a "crew." It didn't last, though, because the sheer number of opponents we had was enough to guarantee our destruction/dissolution.
These kinds of problems were discussed in the old thread, I think.
CM: You're right. "More clans available to them." However, from my experience, it isn't about being in a clan, it's just to increase the number of allies you have and reduce the number of enemies. The longest lived city elf I know/knew was in Kurac. The reasons for their longevity are immediately obvious: a powerful backing group.
The "crew" situation that I describe above was an unclanned crew.
So, yes, that would fix it. The question I have is, why isn't this already being pursued by city elves? City elves like to make allies, for selfish reasons. I can completely understand it if the "focus" of a city elf would be to "join a Great Merchant House." But just Kurac isn't ideal at all; Kurac isn't a city clan. There does need to be SOME kind of city clan for city elves to join (besides the Byn, also a desert oriented clan). There are currently none.
Quote from: Patuk on September 29, 2014, 04:52:35 PM
If companies will hire illegal immigrants, Zalanthans will hire elves. Not for their board of executives, but they will be hired.
This idea is brilliant. Have staff animate a spiced-up degenerate family member and suddenly pick out a PC city elf to hire, then immediately promote to sergeant. The family member makes his move permanent through railroaded staff powers and then staff step back and see what happens between the PCs. All of a sudden Salarr / Kadius has a whole new interesting problem on their hands, made even more interesting if the first thing the elf does is hire every elf he trusts from before his promotion, immediately creating a tiny modicum of power.
You know, a city elf sorceror blackmailing a family member into hiring elves (or else face horrifying consequences on the house) would be great, too.
PC raiders would be too difficult to target and wipe out if they have a village/camp, gith or not.
Nevermind, thats what I get for reading the first page, thinking it's the latest page.
Funny that this thread should appear, I just wrote up a few pages of documentation on a small tribe of Rinthi elves. I sent in a request afew days before I saw this to try and make a family role call based on this tribe, although I doubt staff will give me the go ahead 'because lol no tribes'. I dunno, still gonna try. Lets see where this leads... I'm really hoping it won't be a straight up no, or if it is I'll get a reason why not :p Wish me luck :)
Good luck, man.
Quote from: Tetra on September 29, 2014, 02:22:36 PM
Quote from: valeria on September 28, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 28, 2014, 10:05:07 PM
NO TRIBES
I can parse language with the best of them. My argument against that particular interpretation of the family role call rule is is that you're not creating a tribe, you're creating a family. All of your elven family members still have to be within one degree of affinity of each other or whatever. Maybe the rule should be, your elven family tribe can't be larger than your starting family, but your elven family should still be able to call its blood relatives tribe mates.
All elves have tribes, it's in the documentation. By permitting elven family role calls but not allowing them to call themselves tribemates, it effectively forbids players from doing a family role call for an elven family.
Start a clan request, show the staff that you want to demonstrate your 'tribe' and their agendas within the game world and any currently running plots. I mean, if you -really- want to play a celf with a close-knit group/tribe, there's literally nothing stopping you from doing it. Just because two coded clans close for applications, doesn't mean you can't still roleplay it.
It would literally take you a week of playtime and some charisma to achieve your goal(depending on how assertive/creative you get). If you find yourself feeling, "Hey, this actually a lot of work," or "I don't have time to see this through", or "There's other important things that need more attention". Well.....That's probably how staff feel about c-elf tribes at the moment.
Actually I've already talked with staff about this and I was told that I would not be allowed to band together to form a tribe of PC elves because it is against the family role call rule language. (I'm not a fan of that application, I think it applies language meant for one thing on another thing that it wasn't ever really meant for, but I've already had that discussion with staff.)
Edit for clarification: I was playing a c-elf at the time and it was the character's goal, I was told it would be unattainable for the OOC reason of it going against the family role call rule language.
Here's part II of my post that I didn't get to -- some clan/employment/role options for elves that would not require a full-fledged family/tribe. (n.b., this is just me spitballing based on some recent experiences in the game - maybe they're points for discussion.)
1. Superficially, the Guild (or an offshoot of the Guild, or a Guild-like clan) seems like a 'best fit' clan for city elves. Establish some kind of a scouting/rooftop division that's purely about information gathering for purposes of extortion and blackmail. Elves get along better with elves, so keep them in one 'unit' devoted to crawling around in dark places. They're humanoid rats, after all.
2. House Kurac's current non-virtual presence seems (I think) to be desert-oriented and less about smuggling. Why not more of the latter? One idea is to have Kurac hire city elves (perhaps exclusively, so as to limit inter-racial conflict) to run spice into the labyrinth, and/or to distribute it to buyers in Allanak proper. In exchange, such an elf would get access to a backroom, access to a smallish water barrel (that gets filled once per reboot - let the tragedy of the commons run its course), and perhaps involvement in some broader staff-run House Kurac plots.
I really only envision this as a bare-bones "offshoot" of House Kurac: the elf would essentially be clinging to the lowest rung of the Kuraci ladder with no advancement opportunities, but also few strings attached. If not enough spice is moved, _all_ of these elves would get reprimanded/priveleges revoked/water barrel not refilled or only filled with greyish water/etc.
3. (My least favorite idea of the three) Much as Tuluk has its tattoo checkpoints, certain ungoverned areas of the city states might have established 'racial' checkpoints. For instance, if you want to get into Market Area X, or into the back area of tent Y where they buy and sell anything, you need an elf to take you in, or to pay a fee. The obvious analogy is hiring a ranger to guide you through the harsh sand storms around, e.g., Red Storm: "it would be foolhardy to travel without one." This would give even a day 0 city elf an ultra-basic employment opportunity.
Quote from: valeria on September 29, 2014, 06:11:13 PM
Quote from: Tetra on September 29, 2014, 02:22:36 PM
Quote from: valeria on September 28, 2014, 10:25:07 PM
Quote from: MeTekillot on September 28, 2014, 10:05:07 PM
NO TRIBES
I can parse language with the best of them. My argument against that particular interpretation of the family role call rule is is that you're not creating a tribe, you're creating a family. All of your elven family members still have to be within one degree of affinity of each other or whatever. Maybe the rule should be, your elven family tribe can't be larger than your starting family, but your elven family should still be able to call its blood relatives tribe mates.
All elves have tribes, it's in the documentation. By permitting elven family role calls but not allowing them to call themselves tribemates, it effectively forbids players from doing a family role call for an elven family.
Start a clan request, show the staff that you want to demonstrate your 'tribe' and their agendas within the game world and any currently running plots. I mean, if you -really- want to play a celf with a close-knit group/tribe, there's literally nothing stopping you from doing it. Just because two coded clans close for applications, doesn't mean you can't still roleplay it.
It would literally take you a week of playtime and some charisma to achieve your goal(depending on how assertive/creative you get). If you find yourself feeling, "Hey, this actually a lot of work," or "I don't have time to see this through", or "There's other important things that need more attention". Well.....That's probably how staff feel about c-elf tribes at the moment.
Actually I've already talked with staff about this and I was told that I would not be allowed to band together to form a tribe of PC elves because it is against the family role call rule language. (I'm not a fan of that application, I think it applies language meant for one thing on another thing that it wasn't ever really meant for, but I've already had that discussion with staff.)
Edit for clarification: I was playing a c-elf at the time and it was the character's goal, I was told it would be unattainable for the OOC reason of it going against the family role call rule language.
Sorry to hear that. It does sound odd that it wouldn't be acceptable. In my mind, it makes sense that a clan comprised of city elves would be, for all intended purposes, the same as an urbanized tribe. Thematically, there definitely would be some variance, but the internal structure and operations could essentially remain the same(especially when you consider racial roleplay of elves to begin with). Were Jaxah Pah and the Guild player created?
On a separate stream of thought, maybe the staff prefers to avoid the use of the term "tribe" for c-elfs because it may blur the lines of what is expected in d-elf tribes. While both d-elves and c-elves might carry tribal mentalities, there is a difference in functionality, philosophy, attitudes, and expected behaviour that may dilute the former. Food for thought.
Quote from: Nyr on September 28, 2014, 09:46:41 PM
What happened to the Jaxa Pah?
The answer is that it was closed. It was closed because it doesn't really fit with the mold of what we want to see out of city-elf tribal roles. It set itself up as a more dominant power than it was. It erased several smaller groups and emerged as a powerhouse. It shouldn't have been one. After one tackle of the documentation to try and bind this tribe together consisting of multiple tribes and concepts all in one, it was closed and tabled for later discussion.
I'm sorry if someone already tackled this, I just skimmed through the thread. but
The original idea for JP was that it was a
loose alliance between four elven groups. They don't really trust each other that much and let them into their strongholds. The group just tries to present itself as a monolithic entity to outsiders, while inside squabbles are very much intended to be a thing. That's what I got from the docs and from Shaloonsh's response to a request.
So, can you explain please why the docs were changed at all, instead of just enforcing the divided nature of the clan? Why closing Dariki when the more different groups = the more internal strife? The change pushed the clan into the direction you didn't want it to go, so I'm confused.
I imagine Virtual Divided Struggle is difficult to maintain without actual PC presence.
Quote from: adriannetwork on September 30, 2014, 05:01:26 AM
Personally a great solution would be to eliminate the elves in the same way that kanks were eliminated.
Dwarves too.
Half-giants as well.
Just humans
Gith
and Mantis
yessss.
I'll mudsex your mantis with my gith.
Quote from: spicemustflow on September 30, 2014, 04:15:35 AM
Quote from: Nyr on September 28, 2014, 09:46:41 PM
What happened to the Jaxa Pah?
The answer is that it was closed. It was closed because it doesn't really fit with the mold of what we want to see out of city-elf tribal roles. It set itself up as a more dominant power than it was. It erased several smaller groups and emerged as a powerhouse. It shouldn't have been one. After one tackle of the documentation to try and bind this tribe together consisting of multiple tribes and concepts all in one, it was closed and tabled for later discussion.
I'm sorry if someone already tackled this, I just skimmed through the thread. but
The original idea for JP was that it was a loose alliance between four elven groups. They don't really trust each other that much and let them into their strongholds. The group just tries to present itself as a monolithic entity to outsiders, while inside squabbles are very much intended to be a thing. That's what I got from the docs and from Shaloonsh's response to a request.
So, can you explain please why the docs were changed at all, instead of just enforcing the divided nature of the clan? Why closing Dariki when the more different groups = the more internal strife? The change pushed the clan into the direction you didn't want it to go, so I'm confused.
The original idea for JP didn't last very far past implementation because of the things I laid out earlier. Despite it being planned out initially as something that worked in the manner you suggested, the reality later on was quite different, as determined by general consensus of staff (and by several players as well). The sense of progression and layout of the alliance didn't make much sense and the clan was confusing. We kept it going for a while after streamlining the documentation, progression, and the way the clan actually worked because we agreed at the time that the merit that the clan was built upon was worth trying to see through. However, it ultimately just didn't work. We've learned from it and we have plans to make improvements for future implementations, whatever they might be (whether tribal groups or not!).
Also, as you say, it wasn't a tribe, it was an alliance of tribes. Codedly it also was problematic in that there had to be multiple clans set up on multiple PCs/NPCs, things often broke, etc. It turned out that alliance clans didn't work too well with the codebase.
The change pushing the clan in the direction we didn't want it to go--not really true at all. The things I laid out above were an overview of the reasons why the clan is now closed and why we are looking at other options. It is not a timeline progression of the decisions we made while working with that clan. The closing of Dariki for PC play was a decision made because of the fact that of the four tribes in alliance, their docs were the least fleshed out and the most difficult to grasp. At the time, however, we still
did have issues with the perceived strength of this elven tribe (the fact that it was an alliance of a few tribes tends to prove its strength). If you set up a new NPC tribal alliance in an area and tell everyone "well these guys aren't the big dogs, someone else can stomp them down if they ever get uppity!" and then have no other real coded or virtual "bigger dog" to point at...PCs playing in the alliance will act like they're the big game in town. NPCs animated would be animated from those groups. Despite what the word on the street is (virtually), the de facto power would be the tribal alliance because it's coded. This was something we realized more and more over time.
What I think worked great was what was before the JP -- Haruch Kemad as a shadow organization behind the Sandas, and the other tribes were around as flavor roles. You could write Dairiki into your background, and there was the Dairiki House you could sleep at (sort of at your own risk sometimes, IIRC, depending what NPCs were around). I think a simple and elegant solution is to say the tribe alliance broke up, and write up more detailed backgrounds for each tribe (It was only a paragraph blurb back in '06, and actually, there's probably 5000% more documentation on those tribes now that the JP was implemented, so just C/P), and let people roll up elves and use the documentation in their background.
The fun thing about that was -- You might run into a new tribe-member, you might not, but it made the East Side feel much more real, when these background tribes existed independent of coded benefits. I think something similar could happen in Tuluk -- 2-3 non-coded background tribes that people can choose from. Make it so people can't recruit into the tribes (An OOC consideration, so you don't make a gang out of it). I doubt there will be so much interest in these roles that you'll find 8 city elf PCs banding together under the banner of this tribe, but still. Ask that they submit a report once a month, so Staff can keep track of them, etc.
In that way, you accomplish a major point of this game -- RP Backgrounds and Standards that can be monitored by Staff, and pursued by players. As it stands, City Elves definitely need tribes, they don't need clans.
Quote from: Reiloth on September 30, 2014, 11:23:30 AM
What I think worked great was what was before the JP -- Haruch Kemad as a shadow organization behind the Sandas, and the other tribes were around as flavor roles. You could write Dairiki into your background, and there was the Dairiki House you could sleep at (sort of at your own risk sometimes, IIRC, depending what NPCs were around). I think a simple and elegant solution is to say the tribe alliance broke up, and write up more detailed backgrounds for each tribe (It was only a paragraph blurb back in '06, and actually, there's probably 5000% more documentation on those tribes now that the JP was implemented, so just C/P), and let people roll up elves and use the documentation in their background.
The fun thing about that was -- You might run into a new tribe-member, you might not, but it made the East Side feel much more real, when these background tribes existed independent of coded benefits. I think something similar could happen in Tuluk -- 2-3 non-coded background tribes that people can choose from. Make it so people can't recruit into the tribes (An OOC consideration, so you don't make a gang out of it). I doubt there will be so much interest in these roles that you'll find 8 city elf PCs banding together under the banner of this tribe, but still. Ask that they submit a report once a month, so Staff can keep track of them, etc.
In that way, you accomplish a major point of this game -- RP Backgrounds and Standards that can be monitored by Staff, and pursued by players. As it stands, City Elves definitely need tribes, they don't need clans.
Yuuuuup. Best city elf tribe of all time, with the only caveat being that the announcement of HK as open made it so that everyone 'knew' about how things went eastside. Even when people asked, and you laughed and said that Haruch Kemad was a spinster's tale told to kids to keep them in line, and even with another clan created to 'mask' it...it just couldn't be kept secret like it was supposed to be.
Gonna continue to say the biggest problem facing the Jaxa Pah was the fact that it was borderline impossible to join, and if there were no PCs in the clan at the time, the circumstances were left to whatever staffer animated for you.
This would lead to silly scenarios like a southside elf being accepted in as a probationary leader type while a rinthi elf is chased out and told to never come back all in the same meeting.
Quote from: Nyr on September 29, 2014, 09:13:58 AM
Quote from: manonfire on September 29, 2014, 08:23:24 AM
Fun is the only justification anyone needs to do anything. I wish all this bureaucratic, red tape bullshit would go away and Arma would return to a game where the defining paradigm was "Fuck yes, that sounds awesome, let's do it!"
Armageddon is not Agrestic. It's not a precision engine. It doesn't need to be master planned. All it needs is talented, dedicated storytellers that are given creative freedom to bring the world to life.
Those are some interesting theories on how the game should be played and staffed. Thanks!
(http://forum.duelingnetwork.com/uploads/profile/photo-64230.jpg?_r=1380423659)
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on September 28, 2014, 11:07:37 PM
I'd kind of prefer to see tribal elves driven into the cities, and erase the racial difference, ie: elves are elves are elves. Then we have set up and established staff-supported elven tribes in the cities, filling that role. Now, replace PC tribal desert elves with PC gith, a natural predatory force. Gith at least do something other than think about eating, as PC mantis had to do to be RPed correctly.
A bit late to this discussion..yet here are my thoughts as a fervent player of elves and all things tribal.
Not a fan of this idea. It would radically change or possibly remove some of the funnest clans currently available for play. If I understand things correctly (and I may not so bear with me) you would also have to change the code to make a new type of elf, or get rid of one of the two types of coded elves now in existence, having one universal elf. Unielf.
If one were to pursue this (I am not advocating for or against here, just stating an option), it would work better to change the documentation for city elves, making them extensions of existing and coded d elf tribes. In tribal society a large tribe will often be broken into many different clans. Each clan has its own leadership and particular traits, but they all share the same tribal identity. You could simply be a city based Sun Runner (a coded clan) or a Desert based one (clan). You could do the same with some of the currently closed d elf clans. The type of coded elf you get when you create your PC would be determined by your clan choice.
That would allow for the racial equilibrium and make the elves defiantly "uncivilized" even if they were in a city based clan. It would still allow someone to play a non-clanned c elf. It would give d-elves a choice of more involvement in city based RP and plots, if a d elf PC wanted to do so.
I played in one of the celf clans when it was open, just prior to its closing. And there was just no interest in the player base it seems. The few c elves that played preferred to be independent. I reckon there were many reasons for this. Playing in the clan was really an insular role, but at the same time a Mercantilist one. It was hard to be both, although it was fun. It was also hard for other non elves to know how to treat us. True we were filthy neckers, but the mercantile aspect also made us civilized and we were often treated as such. The clan itself was great and had a lot going for it. Yet it did seem a bit out of place.
The idea I suggested above could remedy this situation, although there would be other problems. It will be interesting to see what the staff come up with, yet IMHO getting rid of -any- of the few tribal (elf or human) options currently open would be a big mistake, unless others were opened. Dyr Nyr Plys Dyn't Tych My Trybls.
I wouldn't have any sort of issue with branches of the same tribe existing in different locales, as long as the elven race were one race, and not two distinct ones.
If SLK could actually go places where they encounter more than 1 other PC per real life week I would probably never play anything else.
The SLK wouldn't have to go someplace else to meet people if they weren't so insanely difficult to arrange things with.
Who said anything about things being arranged?
We can't really discuss the specifics of their documentation but as it stands I feel like they're a tribe with very little IC purpose or direction beyond "survive" which is, as a Soh PC, really easy to do and also really boring.
Survive and ranger-arrow.
One time in Luir's I had all my shit fucked up, I think by a Soh. That was a cool little plot.
Quote from: HavokBlue on October 01, 2014, 05:11:18 PM
We can't really discuss the specifics of their documentation but as it stands I feel like they're a tribe with very little IC purpose or direction beyond "survive" which is, as a Soh PC, really easy to do and also really boring.
Soh rock. Hands down a very fun tribe, if you like that kind of rp. The most fun I have had to date with a PC was with my fairly long lived Soh. It helps if staff are up for working with you on things, but my experience was great. Kaaaaaa, Aiiii Soh!
SLK have always been an iso-clan. I'm curious why they came back and didn't go the way of ATV, for the same reasons. Dune Stalkers were always a more interesting option to me, and of course, the Red Fang.
I would play a Dune Stalker for the rest of my days if that clan was reopened.
Following on the slight derail. What I got out of playing with an iso delf tribe.
I loved the rinthi X hippy culture. I loved living off the land, being one with the land and the chance to explore that part of it safely, with a pair of fast legs.
It was ranger heaven, and I should have signed up for it as soon as I got a karma.
I got to play with elves and other despised individuals, without having to despise them. The group I played with were all kudos worthy, and it is still easy to remember their mannerisms and personalities.
When people complain about the world being "too small" and people not slowing down to appreciate the outside world, complain about the lack of hazards and the like, it always baffles me how they're unwilling to slow down for something as simple as a "tent break" to refresh the city neckers that aren't allowed to be mercenaries anymore anyway because others say it's silly.
I agree with this.
Quote from: Fujikoma on October 06, 2014, 11:21:35 AM
When people complain about the world being "too small" and people not slowing down to appreciate the outside world, complain about the lack of hazards and the like, it always baffles me how they're unwilling to slow down for something as simple as a "tent break" to refresh the city neckers that aren't allowed to be mercenaries anymore anyway because others say it's silly.
At least with movement, there's some action, whereas with neckers in tents, there's a lot of standing around (and clients getting annoyed).
The world needs to be bigger by additional lands, not by turning travel into Zeno's paradox, in my view.
Not sure if I agree, Eyeball.
Half the reason people speed through the desert from one place to another is precisely because travel is fucking boring. Who wants to watch a bunch of screens scroll by? There's nothing going on there. It's slowing down and stopping that makes the event enjoyable. Even if you're not being attacked by a band of Gith at least you could stop and roleplay fearing that a band of Gith might get you. I played a character a bit back in the Byn that was a loudmouth, one of my more memorable scenes with him was on a break during the trip, with him whining about how dangerous it was to stop in Gith territory.
But if we hadn't stopped, I would have never had the chance to roleplay that out. I think you're confusing player frustrations about slowing and stopping with character frustrations about slowing or stopping.
Edit: I guess I should clarify that I pretty much have always wanted the world to be bigger or take longer to get from place to place. So I agree with that much.
There needs to be about a million more echoes added to the desert, along with random scripting for encounters both dangerous and not dangerous, and so on and so forth. I don't know what sort of tax this would put on Ginka, but that's what would make travel a lot more fun. If NPCs acted even marginally realistic, it would be more fun, and way scarier.
So ...
- No lone gith raiding three travelers, but an archer might spit arrows at them in the hopes of killing one, and then return to loot the body when the friends are gone.
- You might enocunter gith returning from a raid.
- You might get to know the migration pattern of a herd of carru, and know that if it's noon, they are sheltering from the sun, and if it's dusk, you really shouldn't be ... HERE, because nobody is going to survive twenty carru.
- Gith might always attack in a raiding group that numbers D3 more persons than the number of PCs in a room. Not hard, via a loading script.
- Gurth might be shelled during the sun, and mobile at night, in the cool.
- Scrab might be scripted to provide newbs a taste of that simlife thing ....
- I could really, really, really keep going, a long time ...
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on October 06, 2014, 11:22:42 PM
There needs to be about a million more echoes added to the desert, along with random scripting for encounters both dangerous and not dangerous, and so on and so forth. I don't know what sort of tax this would put on Ginka, but that's what would make travel a lot more fun. If NPCs acted even marginally realistic, it would be more fun, and way scarier.
So ...
- No lone gith raiding three travelers, but an archer might spit arrows at them in the hopes of killing one, and then return to loot the body when the friends are gone.
- You might enocunter gith returning from a raid.
- You might get to know the migration pattern of a herd of carru, and know that if it's noon, they are sheltering from the sun, and if it's dusk, you really shouldn't be ... HERE, because nobody is going to survive twenty carru.
- Gith might always attack in a raiding group that numbers D3 more persons than the number of PCs in a room. Not hard, via a loading script.
- Gurth might be shelled during the sun, and mobile at night, in the cool.
- Scrab might be scripted to provide newbs a taste of that simlife thing ....
- I could really, really, really keep going, a long time ...
Thumbs up. So many little touches that could make the desert feel alive.
I like every idea 7DV said except that D3 more gith than PCs in a room. Should be a completely random number like 2-6, To avoid people not taking scrubs due to gith spawns.
Gith and raptors should for sure hunt in bigger groups though.
Quote from: Inks on October 07, 2014, 04:09:54 AM
I like every idea 7DV said except that D3 more gith than PCs in a room. Should be a completely random number like 2-6, To avoid people not taking scrubs due to gith spawns.
Gith and raptors should for sure hunt in bigger groups though.
I have seen as many as 1-3 raptors in a hunting party before. Trust me. You say that now, but later on you might wish they didn't.
Of course I don't want them to, for sake of my characters' lives. But they should, regardless. And if it were scripted properly, the raptors would hunt in a pack, but not just a move east, move west pack. Some might lag, then run two rooms quickly to catch back up to the pack. One might scout, one might get tired ... scripted properly, with enough random choices to make it unpredictable but still possess an underlying reliability to the entire procedure, is what I think makes a believable and exciting world.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on October 07, 2014, 08:55:48 PM
Of course I don't want them to, for sake of my characters' lives. But they should, regardless. And if it were scripted properly, the raptors would hunt in a pack, but not just a move east, move west pack. Some might lag, then run two rooms quickly to catch back up to the pack. One might scout, one might get tired ... scripted properly, with enough random choices to make it unpredictable but still possess an underlying reliability to the entire procedure, is what I think makes a believable and exciting world.
I totally agree: surviving on your own in trips in the desert is pretty damn easy, and I'm a newb. After just a relatively minor amount of time, I was comfortable enough with the desert, and spent a lot of IG hours (a lot lot lot) moving about on my own. I have on very rare occasions seen strange things (e.g. packs of raptors as mentioned), but for the most part the desert and its horrors are pretty static, so it didn't take long at all to figure out where to avoid. The problem is the static nature of the spawn spots, I think. Hence, more random whatever! Even as simple as a random mek showing up somewhere it isn't normally at. (Before my PC left the gates, which took several RL months, the rumors that other PCs generated of the dangers scared the fuck out of me, which was awesome.)
I remember the days of the roving gith squads of doom:
>
A spear flies in from the west and strikes you in the arm!
A spear flies in from the west and strikes you in the neck!
A spear flies in from the west and strikes you in the leg!
A spear flies in from the west and strikes you in the head!
Your vision goes black.
*beep*
Nevertheless, except for gith (who can magically disappear into nothing mid-swing in a melee), doesn't it seem odd to you that every creature in the desert is basically suicidally berserk?
Not every creature.
And that gith disappearing seems awfully lame considering PCs can't do it the way gith do, that I'm aware of.
Quote from: Saellyn on October 08, 2014, 07:07:57 PM
Not every creature.
Why did you reply with this, have to admit I'm curious.
Just a stickler for completeness?
Does it totally invalidate what I just said?
Some other reason?
Because it does invalidate what you just said. There are plenty of beasts who flee on sight, or flee when hurt enough.
Could stand to be a few more, I suppose, but I never really thought it was a problem.
I'm just saying there's plenty of creatures that will take off running at the first sign of them starting to die during a fight.
Quote from: Saellyn on October 08, 2014, 07:39:08 PM
I'm just saying there's plenty of creatures that will take off running at the first sign of them starting to die during a fight.
Ok, let's list them for the southlands.
1. Jozhals.
Um... uh... that seems to be it.
Suicidal beasts:
1. Mekillots.
2. Salt worms.
3. Silt flyers.
4. Silt horrors.
5. Scrab.
6. Drov beetles.
7. Tarantula.
8. Jakhals.
9. Snakes.
10. Raptors.
11. Dujats.
12. Hawks.
And a couple of things that will not attack but will fight to the death when provoked (rats and buzzards).
Does my point seem a little clearer now?
To me, the best creature of them all is the gurth. Kudos to whoever implemented that one, it actually has some character.
Quote from: Eyeball on October 08, 2014, 07:49:58 PM
Quote from: Saellyn on October 08, 2014, 07:39:08 PM
I'm just saying there's plenty of creatures that will take off running at the first sign of them starting to die during a fight.
Ok, let's list them for the southlands.
1. Jozhals.
Um... uh... that seems to be it.
Suicidal beasts:
1. Mekillots.
2. Salt worms.
3. Silt flyers.
4. Silt horrors.
5. Scrab.
6. Drov beetles.
7. Tarantula.
8. Jakhals.
9. Snakes.
10. Raptors.
11. Dujats.
12. Hawks.
And a couple of things that will not attack but will fight to the death when provoked (rats and buzzards).
Does my point seem a little clearer now?
To me, the best creature of them all is the gurth. Kudos to whoever implemented that one, it actually has some character.
I'll just say you're wrong.
And as interesting as I think it would be to have those creatures run off after taking a reeling hit, or a bunch of damage, I don't really feel like that's adding much to the game other than some mild annoyance. Technically ALL creatures should "nope" out of a bad situation after taking too much damage. This is how it works in nature(although many fight far too long and take a crippling injury that usually kills them later). But is that really how it should work in-game?
I'd be pretty annoyed if every time I went to hunt scrabs I had to chase them around the known to secure the kill.
Quote from: Saellyn on October 08, 2014, 07:59:26 PM
I'll just say you're wrong.
Huh?
Just what I said. That list is wrong. At least one of the animals in that list will flee if they take too much damage.
the ratio of suicidal to non suicidal animals is still significantly skewed.
Is it snakes? I think you have to have the damage of a Poor Strength elf to figure that out. :P
I think I saw a spider flee once, but I figured that was an animation because it was so rare.
I think snakes arbitrarily go to sleep in the middle of a fight if they fall below a certain threshold
Your blow bounces off its tough skin.
A sandy snake reels from the blow!
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 08, 2014, 08:11:46 PM
Technically ALL creatures should "nope" out of a bad situation after taking too much damage. This is how it works in nature(although many fight far too long and take a crippling injury that usually kills them later). But is that really how it should work in-game?
I'd be pretty annoyed if every time I went to hunt scrabs I had to chase them around the known to secure the kill.
I wish it did work this way honestly. Generally hunting something involves sneaking up on it, outsmarting it, and surprising it with a deadly attack before it can escape.
On the other hand, due mainly to limitations in our codebase, "hunting" in Armageddon just involves charging straight at aggressive vicious animals and dueling them with melee weapons while they fight on without any sort of self-preservation instinct until they die. The game could be a bit more realistic in that regard, alas.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 08, 2014, 08:52:53 PM
Your blow bounces off its tough skin.
A sandy snake reels from the blow!
A sandy snake attempts to flee from a city-elf!
Quote from: Rahnevyn on October 08, 2014, 09:20:42 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 08, 2014, 08:11:46 PM
Technically ALL creatures should "nope" out of a bad situation after taking too much damage. This is how it works in nature(although many fight far too long and take a crippling injury that usually kills them later). But is that really how it should work in-game?
I'd be pretty annoyed if every time I went to hunt scrabs I had to chase them around the known to secure the kill.
I wish it did work this way honestly. Generally hunting something involves sneaking up on it, outsmarting it, and surprising it with a deadly attack before it can escape.
On the other hand, due mainly to limitations in our codebase, "hunting" in Armageddon just involves charging straight at aggressive vicious animals and dueling them with melee weapons while they fight on without any sort of self-preservation instinct until they die. The game could be a bit more realistic in that regard, alas.
Yeah, I don't see the problem in having to actually utilize the ranger skillset to take down beasties in the wilds.
The only problem I have with that is the completely unrealistic nature of wounds in armageddon. If you could reliably determine that chopping a few legs off a scrab would make it only flee for 10 rooms before falling dead, that'd be pretty sweet.
I don't like how you can almost kill someone (as in, roleplay-wise they should be bleeding badly or have severely broken bones) and then suddenly they can run away like they were perfectly healthy.
I imagine any scripting could take into account the health level of the NPC. If not, then yeah, that'd be an issue.
Quote from: Delirium on October 08, 2014, 10:09:17 PM
Quote from: Rahnevyn on October 08, 2014, 09:20:42 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 08, 2014, 08:11:46 PM
Technically ALL creatures should "nope" out of a bad situation after taking too much damage. This is how it works in nature(although many fight far too long and take a crippling injury that usually kills them later). But is that really how it should work in-game?
I'd be pretty annoyed if every time I went to hunt scrabs I had to chase them around the known to secure the kill.
I wish it did work this way honestly. Generally hunting something involves sneaking up on it, outsmarting it, and surprising it with a deadly attack before it can escape.
On the other hand, due mainly to limitations in our codebase, "hunting" in Armageddon just involves charging straight at aggressive vicious animals and dueling them with melee weapons while they fight on without any sort of self-preservation instinct until they die. The game could be a bit more realistic in that regard, alas.
Yeah, I don't see the problem in having to actually utilize the ranger skillset to take down beasties in the wilds.
They'd have to fix projectile economy or re-implement traps in such a way that they were actual hunting tools instead of PvP surprise buttsecks.
Hrm, snakes may or may not flee. Well, that just must mean there's no room or use for improving Arm's fauna then. Glad we got that straight.
C'mon.
Did you not read all the ideas that were just suggested? We're wildly off topic anyways.
Quote from: Rahnevyn on October 08, 2014, 09:20:42 PM
I wish it did work this way honestly. Generally hunting something involves sneaking up on it, outsmarting it, and surprising it with a deadly attack before it can escape.
On the other hand, due mainly to limitations in our codebase, "hunting" in Armageddon just involves charging straight at aggressive vicious animals and dueling them with melee weapons while they fight on without any sort of self-preservation instinct until they die. The game could be a bit more realistic in that regard, alas.
Is that something that can't be handled by clever scripting, though? I don't know if we have mprogs, like ROM does, or Circle, or the like, but mprogs in both those code bases enable a very wide array of responses, if you are clever in writing it. I built a Circle once, and in it, my gate guards didn't check your clan, they checked your insignia, and if they saw what they needed to see, they let you in.
I built a script for a wolf that had the wolf flee, run away three rooms in a random pattern, emote howling, and come back to the spot he fled from with D-something other wolves with him. If there was no PC to attack, he dismissed the extra wolves and went back to prowling. If the code had had hunting, he would have hunted with that pack for a few rooms.
Both of those bases also had wimpy settings for NPCs, which was a percentage of health they would try to flee at. By creating tokens for various scenarios, I was able to make them do a lot of cool stuff. I think it was Oasis OLC in ... one of them, and another sort of OLC in the other.
Somebody who liked scripting could really do a ton of stuff with NPCs, from daily living to surviving. There's some versions of OLC that extend to Objects and Rooms too, which could add a ton to the network of scripts which comprise an ecosystem or cultural environment. I think there are some OLC systems on the MUD repository sight that you can download and write into your existing code, though they are probably made for Circle or Rom or Envy ... being that those were written in C, though, I'm not sure how hard it would be to adapt them to Armageddon's code.
Besides, we had DSPL (Dan's Shitty Programming Language) for scripting back in the day, and I know we've done some java integration into the code, iirc, so if our scripting capabilities are lacking, I think that's a serious place to consider allotting some coder time to, to enable the builders to add real life to all of their creations.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on October 09, 2014, 02:08:39 AM
Did you not read all the ideas that were just suggested? We're wildly off topic anyways.
I did, and I gave 7DV a thumbs up for them.
So much cool stuff could be done.
Like imagine a raptor spotting a grebber. Ok, too similar to the above. Imagine drove beetles which only emerge at night. Come dawn, they burrow back underground.
And so on. So much potential.
I dunno what y'all are talking about. The desert seems more deadly than ever, recently.
Not looking for added deadliness so much as to add give each sort of creature its own semi-intelligent behavior and to add to the sort of wilderness knowledge that can be accumulated.
If a tree falls in the woods...
I just don't know if scripting for stuff beyond the current SimDesert or whatever is worth the time. I'd rather coders code things that affect PC's, after all.
How in the world would scripting not affect PCs? You could play a real mugger if Merchant Shopkeepers sometimes wandered through a dark part of town on the way home. You could run into a real ambush that wasn't gank gank gank if gith were scripted with semi-ai. You could really experience hunting if you had to track a whole pack of carru in order to kill the lone straggler at the back end, and then figure out how to get time to skin it since a Tembo has been stalking you for the last ten rooms. You could run into real trouble if you smacked the jozhal and two more showed up, their yips heard from a couple of rooms away. You could bribe NPCs to do stuff if the scripting was intelligent enough, without staff assistance. THe silt horror could subdue and shake you to death if you couldn't flee, instead of just whipping you down. The Drov Beetle could hiss at you as it struck, towering over you [if_race dwarf] as it lashed out with it's mandibles. You could hire that elven whore for five IC minutes to follow you and take commands, or hire that Mercenary NP from the gates of the Byn to escort you out to salt at 5 am server time, when there are only three people online.
Yes, man ... it would certainly affect your PC.
I dunno.
I'd rather like, play with PCs.
PCs could also experience these NPC scripts together, making the world feel more alive. ???
Adding a bit of life to the world would give PCs more to react to, talk about, remember, etc. Might actually enforce more realistic behaviour in a lot of cases.
Which means more PCs would have world experience from actually experiencing the world.
Which might lead to more interesting PCs overall
Wrong thread
Your thread has been repurposed. No, I'm joking. You're right. I'll split all this scripting talk into it's own thread when I get home to a computer ... random thought: I need a laptop.
Quote from: Reiloth on October 09, 2014, 04:41:50 AM
I dunno.
I'd rather like, play with PCs.
It sounds like you'd be happy if NPCs were removed altogether and the citiy gates locked.
However, NPCs, hunting, surviving travel and exploration are an important part of the game for some players.
That's a pretty in depth analysis! How'd you get there?
There's plenty of single player games I can play with lots of NPCs, like Skyrim.
I play Armageddon for the interaction it provides with other players in a shared story.
While some of this stuff sounds cool, it also sounds like a big time-sink. And I personally wouldn't gain much from more complex NPC scripting (my imagination works just fine). While we're speculating, I thought I would offer the other side of the scale -- The "I don't really care about this" side.
Quote from: Reiloth on October 09, 2014, 01:50:02 PM
That's a pretty in depth analysis! How'd you get there?
There's plenty of single player games I can play with lots of NPCs, like Skyrim.
I play Armageddon for the interaction it provides with other players in a shared story.
While some of this stuff sounds cool, it also sounds like a big time-sink. And I personally wouldn't gain much from more complex NPC scripting (my imagination works just fine). While we're speculating, I thought I would offer the other side of the scale -- The "I don't really care about this" side.
Realistic interaction with other PC's also doesn't require scripting support. Interaction with the world at large, including NPC's, which is what the entire interaction with PC's is embedded into, does. It's great that you want to try and make it appear foolish to interact in a meaningful, character-driven way with Zalanthas, but for some people, the element of a living, breathing world outside of apartments and taverns is important.
::)
oversimplification is simple
Reiloth is saying he'd rather staff focus on something more important to the game world than making a horde of different animals flee just because you want them to flee. There are better things for them to spend their time on.
LIKE CITY ELVES AMIRITE!?
What elves?
Quote from: Saellyn on October 10, 2014, 11:16:07 AM
Reiloth is saying he'd rather staff focus on something more important to the game world than making a horde of different animals flee just because you want them to flee. There are better things for them to spend their time on.
Except it wasn't just about having them flee, for Krath's sake. Read what we write please.
EDIT: and if it was about making them flee, all staff would have to do is set a few flags. ::)
Quote from: Patuk on October 10, 2014, 02:15:52 PM
What elves?
And with that, I think that this thread has served its purpose. We mentioned earlier exactly what we are working on in general terms and that we have some areas to address with elves. There is an active discussion going on with administrative staff regarding the direction they are going to go. You'll see the results when they're available. If you are not satisfied with the speed at which staff works on this, please put in a staff complaint and save your thoughtful contributions for that venue where it will be given due consideration.
Quote from: Eyeball on October 10, 2014, 02:53:40 PM
Quote from: Saellyn on October 10, 2014, 11:16:07 AM
Reiloth is saying he'd rather staff focus on something more important to the game world than making a horde of different animals flee just because you want them to flee. There are better things for them to spend their time on.
Except it wasn't just about having them flee, for Krath's sake. Read what we write please.
EDIT: and if it was about making them flee, all staff would have to do is set a few flags. ::)
Also, it is continually being derailed. If you want to discuss scripting or coding stuff, there is already a thread for that.
Thanks!
As Nyr pointed out, we are discussing city-elves. They are pretty high on the list of things we plan to do/finish/introduce, but they aren't #1.
(They are #3 on my own list, but that doesn't matter as much.)