These are the revised guidelines that the application reviewers will be using. I will also be linking these in from the OOC documentation page, so people have this for reference when creating a character, and will also include a link in the intro docs.
Most of this has been hashed out in extensive discussion, but I would be glad to know if there are obvious errors, things that might mislead new players, problems caused by this doc, etc. before I link them in and make them official.
http://www.armageddon.org/general/appproc.html
Perhaps the comment should be italized?
like this:
Adjectives:
* Action adjectives (ex. serene, silent).
Behavior words are not good -- but sometimes allowable if they can be changed to something like "the serene-looking". Check with the player before making such a change. Facial expressions like "unsmiling" and other terms that can lead to sentences like "The unsmiling woman smiles at ~someguy. " should be discouraged. Okay to reject on this ground.
Looks pretty nice, and makes a good guide I think.
I've never been a fan of things like "the serene-looking" however, and actually have a total dislike for any action in a desc of any sort.
Not gonna be so serene looking when my Half Giant is sweeping a mace at you and I look at you. I've always felt that any action of any kind always has problems in a desc, and if you want to look serene, use an emote.
Other then that... :P
I think that's well put together.
Good work. :)
QuoteObscure adjectives (ex: nigrescent, gracile, etc).
Obscure words are okay if a) the word is used correctly and b) the main description provides some clue to the meaning of the word. Okay to reject if criteria are not met.
That whole thread and your obscure word policy is only two lines long? jk :P
Looks good to me.
You might want to add elf, dwarf, mul, half-elf, and human to your noun list just to be complete, though.
QuoteWe are and always have been about quality over quantity, and no one wants a rush job, especially when making a first impression on a new player.
Perhaps add:
"I helped mansa with his first character, and we had 4 emails back and forth before his first character was accepted, and now mansa won't go away."
;P
Ha, I had totally forgotten that.
I don't like that breed is not allowed.
Other than that, nice.
Well breed is actually short for half-breed, so it's sort of slang in this instance. Moreover, even if breed were permissable, what TYPE of half-breed are you? A half-elf? Mul? Ratlon?
I'm not saying it doesn't make sense. I'm saying I don't like it. Take a chill pill.
Seeing as I'm rather calm and casually engaging in a pleasant conversation, I'll look for someone who actually needs the chill pill. But thanks, though, dude! Good lookin' out.
By the way, would 'the short, curly-haired fellow' be rejected? Technically fellow just means a male, boy or man. Just curious.
I don't like the girl is not allowed. I'm 19, and I still consider myself a girl, maybe a young woman, but I'm more than happy with girl. Anyway, I thought the age went down 13, for humans at least, so (and yes I know Zalanthians are more mature) I'd consider that to be a girl too, unless it's a male.
My first char had girl in the sdesc. :(
Quote from: "Beux"I don't like the girl is not allowed. I'm 19, and I still consider myself a girl, maybe a young woman, but I'm more than happy with girl. Anyway, I thought the age went down 13, for humans at least, so (and yes I know Zalanthians are more mature) I'd consider that to be a girl too, unless it's a male.
My first char had girl in the sdesc. :(
Yea, mine, too. She was a 'blah blah teenange girl'. I don't like how that isn't allowed, either - takes up only four characters and, other than teen, specifies gender. Seriously, I'd like to keep those in game, exspecially for 13-year olds and the like.
Heh, I know for a fact that I've had at least two characters that were accepted with nouns that are on the restricted list, one recently.
To Staff, for our knowledge, if we are currently playing a character with a restricted noun, should we talk to staff about getting it changed? (I ask because I know of characters in game with restricted nouns.)
Quote from: "Nao"Quote from: "Beux"I don't like the girl is not allowed. I'm 19, and I still consider myself a girl, maybe a young woman, but I'm more than happy with girl. Anyway, I thought the age went down 13, for humans at least, so (and yes I know Zalanthians are more mature) I'd consider that to be a girl too, unless it's a male.
My first char had girl in the sdesc. :(
Yea, mine, too. She was a 'blah blah teenange girl'. I don't like how that isn't allowed, either - takes up only four characters and, other than teen, specifies gender. Seriously, I'd like to keep those in game, exspecially for 13-year olds and the like.
The problem is, when most people read 'boy' or 'girl', they assume you are a child, under the age of 13. Additionally, in the past, we've actually seen some rather unrealistic age-play with people with the 'girl' or 'boy' sdesc: 16-year olds running around acting like 8 year olds, and expecting to get out of trouble with the local Templarate because they're "Just Kids".
Additionally, an 18-year-old 'Man' can asses -v your 19-year-old 'girl', and wonder why how a 'girl' can be older than a 'man'.
Quote from: "Tlaloc"
Additionally, an 18-year-old 'Man' can asses -v your 19-year-old 'girl', and wonder why how a 'girl' can be older than a 'man'.
I know plenty of 18 yr old guys who think they're men. :wink: Doesn't make me any less of a girl. It's a matter of opinion really. Shouldn't the problems with bad age-roleplay be addressed individually, or through means of informing players, rather than taking away certain, otherwise, acceptable words?
No, because the issue isn't soley with how the PCs are being played, but what people think of when they see the words 'boy' or 'girl'. After some discussion, we decided that most people don't think "19-year old woman" when they hear the word "girl". They think 2-12 year-old, at best. I know Sanvean can post some much more consice and convincing arguments, and I'll let her get into it, heh.
If it really kills you, I would suggest using: adolescent, lass, maiden, teen, teenage, youth, young-woman...or any workable comination therein. All of those are acceptable nouns as per this list (http://www.armageddon.org/general/words.html), and are much better at defining the true age of someone by looking at them, far better than a misleading 'girl'.
It is a matter of opinion, but for the sake of applications we've decided that girl and boy are not appropriate.
The age of maturity in Zalanthas is different to how you might view it in the world today. A girl or boy is deemed to be younger than the 13 age limit we have for apping a character.
The list isn't meant to restrict your RP - you're perfectly welcome to play out that your pc considers themselves to still be a child.
But woman just sounds so...old. :cry:
Since Staff have responded but not to this...
Quote from: "spawnloser"To Staff, for our knowledge, if we are currently playing a character with a restricted noun, should we talk to staff about getting it changed? (I ask because I know of characters in game with restricted nouns.)
If "man/woman" is too old, you could still use...
:arrow: lad/lass
:arrow: teen/teenager
:arrow: youth
:arrow: young man/woman
If the pc is already in game with the sdesc continue as is, we won't be going around changing these.
What will be happening is that we'll be using the posted guidelines for all future applications we approve.
If you are playing a character with a restricted noun, submit a request to have it changed. Please don't start typoing restricted nouns on other people.
Um...just because I want to be ABSOLUTELY clear...
Those people with those restricted nouns, are they required to request a change?
If so, I would assume it doesn't count against the '2 per' rule. Would I be correct in this assumption?
They are not required to request a change. If they want an sdesc change at this time, they can request one. It will not count against the number of description changes they can request.
Am I the only who finds lad and lass terribly jarring?
No...I can't stand lad and lass...I really can't. Don't know why, it just doesn't seem right at all.
The following are my thoughts on the subject of the boy and girl nouns. Yes, policy has been laid down, no, it's unlikely to change and I don't expect it to, but what's wrong with reading a fresh perspective?
:idea: My first thought is that behavior does not follow appearance. Let's say we have a thirteen year old PC with "girl" in her sdesc. Does she look like a girl? Of course she does, she's a thirteen year old human, and I expect her to develop like a human being. Having three younger sisters (all rapidly approaching or experiencing this age...eek!) acquaints me well with this process.
At thirteen, her body is not developed, has no hips or boobs, her face is round, skin is smoother, not all her baby teeth have fallen out. Unless there's a policy that says Zalanthan humans always look older than Earth humans and spring from the cradle directly to a weathered and mature exterior, there's going to be a period where they look like children, and most 13-15 year olds I've met fit the bill.
But does our imaginary character act like a girl? Not at all. She's seduced and murdered people, lives by herself, is a prostitute, schemes and plots with templars, and generally acts in a way that is unchildlike to the extreme. (This imaginary character is an exaggeration, but it's all possible, no?) Let me reiterate: behavior does not follow appearence. Sdescs are about appearences, not behavior.
:idea: My second thought is that you have other words to indicate childhood. Lass, in fact, according to the Oxford English Dictionary means A GIRL. It's the first definition. Maiden and lad are defined likewise (lad, however, obviously means boy). Youth and teen are especially annoying when you wish to indicate your gender in your short description. What is a male youth? A boy. What is a female teenager? A girl.
You must admit that the blond-haired male teenager sounds a bit more awkward than the blond-haired boy, and frankly, I get the exact same impression from both - that of an adolescent human.
However, since this is apparently not the case for the rest of the player base, according to Tlaloc, Sanvean, and the rest, I must restate that this is only my opinion. How you imms have measured specific reactions to these words, I have no idea, but you've all been mudding before I'd even heard of them, so rock on.
In conclusion (how I've gone on), I recognize the "no kids" policy thing and will say no more words about it...right after these next three sentences! Since the impression Staff is giving currently is that there has been substantial abuse in the past with the words "girl" and "boy" in order to escape trouble with the law or what have you, then I'll acquiesce if it's been such a jarring influence on the game world. We can't have that. However, I will miss some of the creative freedom the restricted noun list represents, and continue to puzzle quietly to myself over "maiden."
Looks great overall, and a very useful doc to have.
I did find a small goof.
Quote
Pronouns:
If a player uses "a" instead of "the", use the web editor to fix it.
These are articles, not pronouns.
Laura, you bring up a good point. Girl = lass. Boy = lad. However, I think it has to do with perception more than definition.
Are some of these guidelines new? I think I've seen over 40 girls/boys (two of which were my own PCs) and at least 10 breeds in my 6 months of Arming. I personally don't see the sense in disallowing boy/girl, there are so many NPCs with that noun that especially new players will get the wrong impression.
Edit: my opinion is mostly similar to Laura's post, but I can't bother typing that much.
Quote from: "LauraMars"
:idea: My first thought is that behavior does not follow appearance. Let's say we have a thirteen year old PC with "girl" in her sdesc. Does she look like a girl? Of course she does, she's a thirteen year old human, and I expect her to develop like a human being. Having three younger sisters (all rapidly approaching or experiencing this age...eek!) acquaints me well with this process.
At thirteen, her body is not developed, has no hips or boobs, her face is round, skin is smoother, not all her baby teeth have fallen out. Unless there's a policy that says Zalanthan humans always look older than Earth humans and spring from the cradle directly to a weathered and mature exterior, there's going to be a period where they look like children, and most 13-15 year olds I've met fit the bill.
Your sisters are weird. :P I had puffy "mosquito bite" boobs by the time I was 10 or 11. I got my period when I was 11 1/2. And baby teeth at 13? I'm pretty sure all mine were gone years before that. I've never known teenagers that were still teething (except for wisdom teeth that come in a few years later, but they are additional teeth, not replacement teeth.) It is within the range of normal for a girl to not get her period (and noticeable secondary sex characteristics) as late as 15, but I think 13 is usually the average.
To adults (say, over 21) adolescents look like children, but to children (say, under 9) adolescents look a lot like adults. They are in-between, they have characteristics of both children and adults.
Personally I'd prefer that boy and girl were allowed (but then I'd like for urchin and whelp to be allowed too). Everyone knows that the minimum starting age is 13 (or racial equiv lent) so we know that a PC boy or girl isn't a
little boy or
little girl. But apparently there have been problems in the past with people using descriptions that could apply to either children or adolescents, and then having those characters act like small children rather than acting like adolescent.
And sometimes the false children get into adult situations, and you get issues of child abuse and pedophilia -- things that may be a normal part of Zalanthan life but that many Earthlings don't want to deal directly with in a game setting. Plenty of people aren't entirely comfortable with 13 or 14 year old characters having sexual relationships with characters in their 30s, if that 13 year old acts like they are 7 or 8 it gets much worse. The culture shock is just too severe, it is too alien, and it is difficult for players to come up with realistic and appropriate responses to situations like that.
So even though I like starting my characters young, I can see why children may not be allowed. But if kids aren't allowed,
lass and
lad should be off the list too.
QuoteAre some of these guidelines new?
Yes. As noted in the initial post:
QuoteThese are the revised guidelines that the application reviewers will be using.
As extensively discussed here (http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=21616&highlight=whelp), this is an attempt to list and standardize the criteria different reviewers have been using, for a variety of reasons.
Quote from: "Angela Christine"Your sisters are weird. :P I had puffy "mosquito bite" boobs by the time I was 10 or 11. I got my period when I was 11 1/2. And baby teeth at 13? I'm pretty sure all mine were gone years before that. I've never known teenagers that were still teething (except for wisdom teeth that come in a few years later, but they are additional teeth, not replacement teeth.) It is within the range of normal for a girl to not get her period (and noticeable secondary sex characteristics) as late as 15, but I think 13 is usually the average.
To adults (say, over 21) adolescents look like children, but to children (say, under 9) adolescents look a lot like adults. They are in-between, they have characteristics of both children and adults.
We are all late bloomers in my family, and people still have mistaken me for a much younger person even now. The point is, there's no use trying to pin down the exact moment people transition from looking like a child to looking like an adult since its different for everyone, and yes, perception is a big deal...however, that's a bit difficult to regulate in a text game.
Maybe we could make an elaborate script where anybody older than the target PC sees "girl" when she's in her teens and anybody younger than her sees "young woman" or something, but I think that's going a little far, haha.
I don't particularly like the fact that subjective words are allowed. I have an intense aversion to having opinions forced upon me, due to the fact that everyone's personal tastes vary. Beauty/ugly is in the eye of the beholder! I still can't believe that a PC with comely in its sdesc got approved. That drove me batty! My PC did not find this supposedly comely PC attractive at all.
Example: Don't tell me "He has a handsome face." I want to know WHY he is supposed to be attractive. What if he has soft, feminine features? Not everyone finds that sort of look handsome. My PC may well find rugged, stubbly features attractive.
Another example: Don't tell me "She has an ugly face." Tell me instead what makes her so ugly. Is her skin covered in pockmarks? If so, perhaps my PC would see past that and find her face pleasing for other reasons.
And this goes doubly for races. Most often I've noticed that the PCs with subjective adjectives in their descriptions are human. I'm sorry, but my dwarf isn't going to find your svelte human with luxurious hair attractive in the slightest. My elf isn't going to find your plump human with full lips attractive. My halfling hates you all and thinks you're more attractive roasting on a spit.
Quote from: "Barzalene"Am I the only who finds lad and lass terribly jarring?
You're not alone. Lass and lad strike me as slang and, frankly, I would find it far easier to envision 'boy' or 'girl' than lass or lad (besides which they mean the same thing yet, oddly, boy and girl are not allowed). Lad is something I would use in speech, as in "Hello young lad, how are you today?" Not in formal writing. The same goes with lass. I find the ban on boy/girl keywords disheartening insomuch as they are the best means of expressing a maturing adolescent without having to rely on awkwardly long sdescs, as lauramars pointed out.
I find
the lanky adolescent elven male far less appealing to the eyes of a reader than
the lanky elven boy. Moreover, many novels I have read refer to a 'youth' as someone younger than 13. Someone very very young. Boy/girl does not = toddler, ladies and germs.
Has anyone seen the movie Master and Commander? Do you remember the BOYS on the ship? They weren't treated as little children, they had a rough job to do. But they were limited in their career path due to their age. They were far from mature. They were, quite frankly, boys.
Lastly, it isn't the ban on boy/girl keywords that frustrates so much as is the accepted alternatives, some of which contradict rejecting boy/girl given that they are synonyms. If someone is pretending to be a child by using boy/girl keywords, then they should be dealt with individually, in my opinion. Because a 13 year old sure as heck ain't no adult! They're barely a teen for that matter. With respect, if you're connoting boy and girl with children but not the slang, informal words lass or lad, then I'm afraid you aren't fully grasping the definitions of these words. Boy and girl means not fully developed, it does not mean toddler or child per se. While boy and girl CAN be used to describe children, so to can adult be used to describe anyone from an 18 to 89 years old. It's about a range of ages. I've seen men in their late 20's referred to as boys by their elders for that matter.
Laura spoke out my thoughts clearly actually. I would much rather like to have boy/girl allowed. Teen, youth are not gender specific. Young man/woman take about one third of your allowed characters in the sdesc, and a 13-15 year old are not young man or woman if you ask me. I could put 18-23 in the young man and woman category.
Quote from: "Barzalene"
Am I the only who finds lad and lass terribly jarring?
No you are not the only one.
oh so we can't use dickens-whelp
wtf is hitler in charge now or something thanks a lot sanvean you just ruined all of my char concepts
Quote from: "jcarter"you just ruined all of my char concepts
Might I suggest not basing a character concept around a certain combination of words in a sdesc? Most well-developed characters could have a seemingly limitless supply of features suited for a sdesc, at least some of which should come naturally to the creative player.
Lord Templar Hard Nose shakes his head in sorrow.
P.S. - I like the new changes, agree with Barzalene about lad and lass, but everyone is going to have an issue or two with any new set of guidelines. Good work!
Quote from: "Eternal"Quote from: "jcarter"you just ruined all of my char concepts
Might I suggest not basing a character concept around a certain combination of words in a sdesc? Most well-developed characters could have a seemingly limitless supply of features suited for a sdesc, at least some of which should come naturally to the creative player.
Lord Templar Hard Nose shakes his head in sorrow.
P.S. - I like the new changes, agree with Barzalene about lad and lass, but everyone is going to have an issue or two with any new set of guidelines. Good work!
Haha, I was being facetious
Hard to tell anymore. :wink: Still, good to have up there for new players, I guess.
NO DRIZZT?!?!111
The only disagreement I have with any of it at all is that one cannot use "breed". That to me seems just as acceptable as any of the others that are listed as acceptable. With that exception, I agree completely with the rest of it.
Quote
breed
n.
A group of organisms having common ancestors and certain distinguishable characteristics, especially a group within a species developed by artificial selection and maintained by controlled propagation.
A kind; a sort: a new breed of politician; a new breed of computer.
Offensive.. A person of mixed racial descent; a half-breed.
I'm not particularly fond of lad or lass either, but the real place I wanted to weigh in on was on the banning of 'boy' and 'girl'.
We have 35 characters with which to make an sdesc, and as we all know, the longer your sdesc is, the less creative you can be using change ldesc.
'girl' is 4 characters, whereas the closest non-jarring synonym is 'young woman' -- 11. That leaves you with, really, only 24 to work with. 20 if you count 'the'. That's not a lot of room for creativity, unfortunately.
That's *my* beef with it, anyway.
I'm sure the Imm's are tired of hearing complaints about this "girl, boy" thing after they've already made their decision, but oh well... ;)
I hate it. It seems to just remove some of the 'good' variety of the game.
While I understand if you don't want some character 40 yrs old using the word "girl" or "boy" in their sdesc, I still think you can put a limit somewhere like maybe mid-20's depending on the main desc and personality of the character.
Players are allowed to make up keywords on the fly, yet are not being trusted to use "girl" or "boy" where they see fit? Doesn't seem to make sense to me. Why can't you just deny apps the same way you probably would if someone put "teen" or "lass" for their 50 yr old half-giant? Heh.
Sorry, no offense, this all just seems silly to me.
The halfbreed thing irritates me also. I can't remember if it was just "breed" or "halfbreed" also.. but I don't see any problem with that either, for basically the same reasons as above... i.e. it would have to be used to make some sort of sense for the character or fall within certain guidelines.
Really... can't we trust the players for something as minor as that. I'm not saying don't punish the ones that try to abuse that trust - but that goes for everything else as well. Why not this? Just seems ridiculous... don't know what else to say... please reconsider.
- Boggled
I can live without seeing another 'boy' PC running around giggling. I can do this easily. Given, though, that all of the alternative descriptors for the age frame are much longer, maybe the char length for an sdesc could be bumped to 42 or so? I definately dont want those long, sucky ass sdescs you get on them other muds, but 42 is still reasonably short...
And it'd let me play...
the tousle-haired, mahogany dickens-whelp
Wait, no dickens-whelp?! Curse you!
There are disadvantages to boy and girl, but I don't see any alternatives for a 13-year old.
13-year olds tend to look like children, exspecially when they're badly nourished. I wouldn't call them lad or lass, since those seem to be much older than 13, besides, I absolutely hate those words.
Teen and youth are too sexless - sure, you could put male or female in, but that takes up too many characters to leave room for much of anything else.
Same goes for young man or young woman - a 13-year old isn't the picture I get from young woman. Then there is also the character thing....
I hate to say it, but it seems as of late a lot of charactors that go against these guidelines have been popping up. Oh well, it is the imms who approve them, and I am sure they have their reasons.
Quote from: "Vessol"I hate to say it, but it seems as of late a lot of charactors that go against these guidelines have been popping up. Oh well, it is the imms who approve them, and I am sure they have their reasons.
The policy is put there recently. It might be that they already had their characters before. From now on, I think you would not see one approved (considering this is the staff policy)
Quote from: "Barzalene"Am I the only who finds lad and lass terribly jarring?
Och, lassie, haud yer wheesht. Whit else are we to call a bonny callant but lad? A lad's a lad, an' a lass is a lass, an' it pleases me fine that the twa are here to stay. Aye, an guid on the staff for ridding us of those Sassenach synonyms, "girl" and "boy". We'll hae the mud speaking Lallans afore a fortnight's oot.
I love Quirk. :oops:
I don't mind lad or lass so much, but I definitely mind boy/girl. The connotations are there, whether we like it or not, that "boy/girls" are the younger sorts, and 9 times out of 10, they act like it, too.
I see no problem with teen/youth - start learning to use the assess command!
I like 'lad' and 'lass'... so I guess I'll settle for using those. I think they fit into the realm of Zalanthas just fine, personally. The only problem I had was that certain characters just seem to fit the word 'boy' or 'girl' better than 'lad' or 'lass'. And also since the two are so similar I didn't see why it mattered... like I said before... why not just use the same rules for allowing 'lad' or 'lass' as you do for allowing 'boy' or 'girl'. *shrug* No matter I guess... I sorta like the use of words better this way now that I think of it.
Thanks Armageddon Staff! (cheezy smile)
P.S. I hope I can still use roamer, wanderer, or vagabond though!?!
*loud guitar music playing in background*
Permitting lad and lass is of the same school of logic as allowing dude in an sdesc.
The fact of the matter is, a 13 year-old boy or girl is not a "young man" or "young woman" (besides which, these are unnecessarily long keywords). Moreover, very few players want to choose an asexual keyword such as teen or youth. What's more, male/female keywords are better connotations for animals than human(oid)s. As in, the female kitten or the male donkey. If I see the lean, dark-haired female, the first question on my mind is: female what? Female elephant?
I can't think of more than one instance where someone using boy/girl keywords portrayed their character as a bona fide child. The infrequency of boy/girl keyword misuse can only fairly be handled on a case by case basis, rather than punishing the entire playerbase for the actions of a markedly small minority.
Great post, by the way, Quirk!
I'm disappointed that girl and boy won't be allowed anymore. I think all the points that I feel have basically already been made, so I wont repeat.
However, since Sanvean's post was a review and discussion of the changes made, I can only hope the staff will reconsider based on the very vocal opinion of the players in this particular.
Quote from: "Pantoufle"Well breed is actually short for half-breed, so it's sort of slang in this instance. Moreover, even if breed were permissable, what TYPE of half-breed are you? A half-elf? Mul? Ratlon?
I see Breed as a word for half-breed, but helps you stay under 35 characters.