Armageddon General Discussion Board

So here's something I've been mulling over...

I remember back in my paper Role Playing days reading something or talking to someone about the idea that PC's are - in some ways - special people.  The idea was that while most of the population (the NPC's) are content to go about their lives and do mostly normal things, the PC's are those who want more from life or who are in some way oddballs.

That explains why while most of the population is doing fairly unremarkable things, there's all these PC's running around doing some more remarkable things.  The PC slaves run away in disproportionate numbers because the ones that are "posessed" by players are the exceptional ones.

I'm not throwing this out there to encourage bad roleplaying but rather as an explanation for why so many of those doing exceptional things are PC's...

Thoughts?  Agreements?  Disagreements?  Flames?

...respectfully submitted...

I would tend to agree with this philosophy, except that I think roleplaying mundane people can be both fun AND can add a great deal of texture to the world.  That said, I make no apologies for my exceptional people.  Being exceptional is fun.  If I always wanted to be mundane, I'd wander off and do the job I'm actually paid for, instead of mudding.  ;)

But then, drunks are mundane.  Brawlers are mundane.  Slaves are mundane.  Merchants are mundane....  thugs are mundane.  Most of the world of Zalanthas is mundane.  Sand, really.

Being a pretty regular player of a Rom H/S RP encouraged MUD, this situation comes up alot when players begin to claim how unrealistic it is that people know your name. (No sdesc feature), and it is commonly claimed that the players of the game are the 'Heros' experienced wanderers, and that npcs and vnpcs make up the bland, everyday people of the world.

Thats why the 'avatar' characters are capable of being above the law, slaying guards at will, etc etc.

But that very much doesnt apply here in my opinion.

Characters are normal people in the world that CAN make a name for themselves, but really never achieve these super type personalities of other MUDS. Most common people wont be able to kill every guard in Allanak, or have a reason to. There will almost always be something strong, scarier, or more cunning. So most people will never achieve an "Avatar" type stage in their character, where they are gods among men. Making them always similar to the normal run of the mill people in the world.

But in a sense, that is why PCs have an urge to make and do great things. Its alot harder to blend into the bland commoner life of npcs and vnpcs when the world is designed to conquered like a game. Places to explore, things to see, things to do. I personally would be horribly bored playing a cook at the Gaj. Working full days cooking, then going home to sleep, or sitting at the bar a few more hours. Id have much more fun playing an explorer, or caravan guide, even if they'd most likely die alot quicker. But even a caravan guide, explorer, Bahamet hunter, these things arnt 'Great' in Zalanthan terms. Maybe extraordinary, but nothing comparable to a common 'hero' in a hns that slays an entire town without so much as a bruise.

In summary I like Armageddon, people are more real to their environment, and the environment treats them accordingly. While there is considerably less room (Comparitively to other muds) for greatness being a small person in such a grand world of vnpcs and npcs and history, there is still room for those that can push themselves. Yes it might be hard, but greatness usually isnt easy.

Anyways, those are my thoughts and comments.

Quote from: "RideTheDivide"I remember back in my paper Role Playing days reading something or talking to someone about the idea that PC's are - in some ways - special people.  The idea was that while most of the population (the NPC's) are content to go about their lives and do mostly normal things, the PC's are those who want more from life or who are in some way oddballs.

I remember this being stated before on the old GDB.  I disagree with this philosophy.

As past threads have demonstrated, problems have been caused when PC's for either IC reasons or OOC player misunderstanding, seem to think they are more special than the rest of the populace.  Certain unrealistic actions may occur, running contrary to the true game world.  This sort of attitude fosters the idea that PC's are somehow important, even right off the bat, and typically they are not.

That being said, it is not impossible for PC's to become special, well-known or even "heroic" in a Zalanthan sense.  I've said it in the past and I'll say it again, I actually prefer to see PC's break that glass ceiling into importance and power that seems to always be held by NPCs and VNPC's, except in very rare circumstances.   I just don't think its appropriate that the player of Joe Schmoe Ranger or the PC itself think of himself as special or more important then the rest of his city-state's populace 5 minutes after being in the game, because he won't be.

Quote from: "Fedaykin"I just don't think its appropriate that the player of Joe Schmoe Ranger or the PC itself think of himself as special or more important then the rest of his city-state's populace 5 minutes after being in the game, because he won't be.

Well, Joe Shmoe PC Ranger is special in that he may ride off to the salt flats or his local salt lick to find salt and bring it back so that everyone can get their clothes cleaned.  That isn't all that heroic (unless you were the damsel in distress becuase her silk knickers are all sweat stained) but it is unusual, most people never leave their hometown.

A question in the back of my mind when I was creating D&D or other characters is "why isn't she a farmer?"  Now Arm characters aren't as heroic or different than the general populous as D&D characters, but they do tend to be unusual.  Most PCs start as free commoners with no affiliations or obligations, and that is rare.  And most people are not warriors, thieves, magickers or wealthy merchants, but many PCs are.

So what is it about this person that they didn't become a farmer, barmaid, dung sweeper, etc.?  Some people play slaves, they are what they are because somebody made them that way.  Some didn't want a mundane job so they go to the big city seeking fame, fortune, or a good lay.  Some have their farm, family, tribe, employer, hut, etc. destroyed by raiders, slavers, disease, magickers, templars, rebels, gith, or other destructive types, so the mundane life they were planning isn't available to them.

AC

Again, I disagree.  Some PC's may leave their home town, yes.  Most virtual people will not, again yes.  However leaving the city is not widely uncommon that it makes doing so special, or the one who does such special.  There are both PC's and VNPCs who act similarly on a regular basis.  

Hunters, lumberjacks, mercenaries, guards, soldiers, merchants and crafters are all perhaps not the -most- mundane of jobs, but they are not in the least bit unsual either.  No matter how often that hunter rides out he is still only one of many who leave the cities for largely the same reasons.  PC Bynners leave the city often as well on their contracts, but they're still only a few in an organization of hundreds of virtual mercenaries who do so as well.  

Quote from: "Angela Christine"
most people are not warriors, thieves, magickers or wealthy merchants, but many PCs are.

That still doesn't change the fact that they are not special.  Thieves are special?  There are hundreds of thieves, and that PC thief is no more special than the rest.  Warriors?  Plenty of guards, soldiers and mercenaries out there. Wealthy Kadian merchant?  Less of them around, sure, but he's still only one of many in a very large family.  Magickers?  Unusual, but there are still elemental temples with plenty of magickers, so that magicker is still only one of a number of others.

Having jobs or positions a little bit less mundane then the rest of the populace doesn't automatically make PC's by any means unusual or special, IMO, and in most cases there a hundreds of NPCs or VNPCs out there who still hold similar positions themselves.

I don't think that, that is what is meant by not regular. Many PC do an experience things that the NPC population of Zalanthas would not. Participating in events helps to enforce that. Then there is always that defiler and there can't be too many of those around.

The terms used were "special" and "remarkable".  PC's are not all more special and remarkable than the rest of the populace solely because they are PC's, although some may become special or remarkable.

I don't exactly know what you mean by participating in "events".  If you mean RPTs, plenty of NPC's and VNPC's participate in the majority of those as well, some of them perhaps even more directly than many PC's.

As for PC's doing things that the NPC population would not do, I again disagree.  The NPC/VNPC population of the game world includes Sorceror Kings, Precentors, High Templars, Senior Nobles, Wealthy Merchants and House Heads, Magickers and Defilers.  So in fact, I'd actually say that there are NPCs and VNPCs who do much more extraordinary things than 99% of the PC population ever will.

Certain PC's will be more remarkable than other PC's just like certain NPC's will be more remarkable than others, but PCs as a whole are not more special than the NPC/VNPC populace.  Some PC's may do extraodrdinary things, but NPCs and VNPCs from the population are doing them as well.  Each group has its unremarkable and remarkable people.  Remarkability comes down to a Character by Character basis and has nothing to do with those characters being Player Characters, Non-Player Characters or Virtual.

Quote from: "Fedaykin"Each group has its unremarkable and remarkable people.  Remarkability comes down to a Character by Character basis and has nothing to do with those characters being Player Characters, Non-Player Characters or Virtual.

Which is, may I add, one of the great things about this game. Most can't seem to accomplish this, which creates a rift between PC and NPC/VNPC that serves to make the world that much less believable.

Good point, I agree with you, Fedaykin. I guess I was thinking more in OOC terms than IC.

I agree - PCs are destined, via OOC intervention, to be different.  They have the ability to attain mastery in something, most characters do not.  They get to start the major intrigues, their average wealth is well beyojnd the average Zalanthan, etc.

This is in hindsight, however - Batman doesn't live comic after comic because he is good.  It's easy to imagine how easy it would be to kill Batman with, say, enough guys with handguns.  The reason why Batman lives is because he has support of his creator, the writer, to stay alive for the story.  This is essentially hindsight destiny.  The writer can kill off Batman or do anything - but whatever the case, Batman was destined to be unique long before even created. Same with the average Arm char controlled by a PC.

Sure, you can play a mundane character, but by virtue of this very medium, the fact that you are playing one means you are not playing a potentially limitless other characters, giving one existence over all others.  That's foresight destiny.

Just some whacky chicken Vs Egg thoughts.

Quote from: "gfair"I agree - PCs are destined, via OOC intervention, to be different.

I agree completely. While we are not dragons from long lost eras or children of world dominating sorcers, etc, we are different that the average NPC. We may never become important and majestic figures, but we can, and that is something that the average denzien of Zalanthas cannot say.

Thus, I have little issue with the view that the PC population of Zalanthas is typically the cream of the crop. Some of that cream, in fact most, gets spilled, but the remainder constitutes the water of the world.

Let us put it this way. If it were not for the fact that some positions are unwieldy due to the powers at command, and thus out of the reach of the PC population at the discretion of the staff, PCs would rule the world.

That is the bottom line.

I look at PCs on Zalanthas to be a slice of normal society. To say that players have support of the creators to achieve more is inaccurate from my point of view. 95% of the famous figures in history are NPCs.  The senior nobles are mostly NPCs. The senior Templars are mostly NPCs. Merchant house leaders are mostly NPCs. Just because their story isn't told to the general public does not mean that this group of NPCs have not led extrordinary lives. However, NPCs have backgrounds. In Borsail at least, the NPCs have even accended to their position through IC events and that may have even been influenced by PCs. You also have a much larger portion of NPCs which accomplish nothing. These NPCs have potential too, but they haven't made it. What portion of PCs made never amount to anything? What portion spend years as nobodies? In their own eyes and to their own self, their life is interesting and important. Wouldn't that be true of the NPCs too?

The exceptional thing about Armageddon for me, is that you do have the potential to change the world, to make an impact and become famous, but it isn't your birthright any more than it was Luir's birthright. If your character dies, no one is going to bend the rules to save you. That's why it is so much the sweeter when you do change the world. It was not handed to you. You are not destined for it. You had to have earned it, and that feels damn good.

Cerebus

Hmm...never thought of it precisely that way. Good point.

Chuckle, No, the senier nobles and such are not npc's, they are staff:)

That and the only reason they are handled in such a manner is because staff thinks that it is far to much power for non-staff to wield, also, quite a bit of the 'history' was written or 'virtual' and then the famous figures were put in, or they were played by staff, again, making them not npc though they may have become one later.

I could go much farther on that, I had a char in arm within 3 months of it opening, but even at that time it had a 'virtual history' that never happened:)


Anyway, I think of it in three tiers, The VNPC, the vast majority, the average person that just wants to lead an uneventful life, the ones that keep thinks going day to day, the NPC above average, they aspire to more then the VNPC but are not very creative, sometimes haveing bright flashes of action/insight/creativity this is also the heads of houses noble/templar/merchant, they are not exceptional but established and wish to stay that way, the PC the exceptional person, dynamic and working to change his place in the world and capable of doing something that no NPC does and that is change his station in life, When that begger outside the traders stands up gets a job, works, gets a job with the militia, work his way up and in 20 years become captain...when the elf boy playing with the ball starts training with a bow instead and becomes a good hunter and starts a tribe...when any of this ever happens, then I will change the way I think about it, but currently the only way that is going to happen is if a staff member restrings the npc and writes up a backround/history and posts it, at which point it is still just virtual.

Cerebus, I agree with you, but one thing - those NPCs were all created by players.  I don't mean to expand the definition of player either, to the "all the world is a stage" notion, I mean NPCs.  Despite the acronym, these senior NPCs you speak of ARE special long before written up or put into the game - their birth starts not with an event in Arm, but with the idea by an IMM that another NPC is needed.

And NPCs actually do tend to defy life - they can be regenerated, can they not?  When an NPC is killed and comes back in identical form, with identical background, skills, description and equipment, is that one of the few cases where an NPC plays the same part over and over?  So... these NPCs are much more than any other virtual character. Now the instant some virtual NPC is invented by IMM or PC, that VNPC does indeed come out of the ether destined to be an important NPC.

As for PCs - if a PC changes the world in a significant way, she/he is turned into an NPC in some cases.  So while changing the world doesn't occur when an IMM approves a char to exist in Arm, it does give PCs the ability to transcend the abilities of any other Zalanthan, by being reborn and living eternal, until an IMM decides that the NPC is no longer important.

I'll summarize in a point - there may be gods in Zalanthas, but people in our real world are the creators.  And by virtue of the fact that we can do that, we already stamp any played or playable character with the mark of higher purpose than all never-played (as opposed to NPC and VNPC) member of Arm.

Quote from: "X-D"Chuckle, No, the senier nobles and such are not npc's, they are staff:)

Quote from: "NPC helpfile"Any NPC may at any time be inhabited by the spirit of an immortal (i.e., controlled by a staff member)

Senior nobles and such are still non-player characters even if the staff plays them out occasionally, as they are characters not played by players.  However, the entire NPC populace has the possibility of being inhabited by an immortal, not just higher echelon NPCs.  That being said, where do these exceptional NPC's and VNPC's such as nobles, templars, sorceror kings etc., fit into your three tiers?

Quote from: "gfair"these senior NPCs you speak of ARE special long before written up or put into the game - their birth starts not with an event in Arm, but with the idea by an IMM that another NPC is needed.

How does certain NPC's being created special have any bearing on whether or not player characters are automatically more special than the rest of the populace?  They're still both characters.  Some are going to be special some aren't. Also, the creation of NPC's with prefabricated backgrounds is not unlike the way PC's are created.  Typically you decide this character should be in the world,  and then come up with a prefabricated life of however many years that occured before their actual creation.  All characters are created this way.  Some will be "special" off the bat, like noble NPC's and noble PC's, and some won't like nearly all commoner NPCs and PCs.  However, even though certain PC's like nobles are going to start more "special" than the rest of the populace, they are not special ammong their own class of other PC, NPC and VNPC nobles until they prove themselves as such.

Quote from: "gfair"So while changing the world doesn't occur when an IMM approves a char to exist in Arm, it does give PCs the ability to transcend the abilities of any other Zalanthan, by being reborn and living eternal, until an IMM decides that the NPC is no longer important.

If any NPC is an individual and not merely nameless representative of the commoner populace, and that NPC is killed and the immortals are informed, I'm pretty sure they will remove him for consistency's sake.  Also, just because certain game mechanics issues exist, a character in a realistic world who just happens to be inhabited by a player is still not automatically more special than the rest of the populace.

Quote from: "gfair"I'll summarize in a point - there may be gods in Zalanthas, but people in our real world are the creators. And by virtue of the fact that we can do that, we already stamp any played or playable character with the mark of higher purpose than all never-played (as opposed to NPC and VNPC) member of Arm.

This is not an OOC issue.  This is an IC issue.  We play in a realistic world.  Your character is not special ammong the populace, or those similarly situated, until he or she manages to prove themselves as such.  Even if a PC has the "mark of higher purpose" as you put it, although what sort of mark of higher purpose a common thief trying to survive might have I'm not sure of, no one is going to know of this purpose to mark them and special, and chances are they won't achieve it anyways.  Perhaps NPC's aspire to higher purpose as well, they just never achieve it the same way 95% or higher of the PC populace never will.

There is a whole world out there.  Just because you're not apart of everyone's lives and everyone else's lives do not affect yours, doesn't mean that these VNPC and NPC characters and their lives aren't every bit as dynamic as those of PC's.  You just don't hear about it as much, the same way in real life  you don't hear about everyone's lives and actions.  It doesn't mean the rest of the world and its people are doing nothing or going about business as usual.  The world goes on and doesn't revolve around you.

Think you're special?  Prove it.

Until then, your character is just another nameless sheep in the flock.

QuoteX-D wrote:
Chuckle, No, the senier nobles and such are not npc's, they are staff:)

                                                         Um, notice the little smily      ^
                                                                                                   |

That line was joking.

QuoteThink you're special? Prove it.

I think the problem or arguement here is basicly a problem with semantics/definition

Hhhhmmm, Ok, the few of us arguing the point have used the word special, I think, but I prefer exceptional, now, this in no way makes them "above" or "better" then anybody else but it makes them the exception to the rule IE not in the norm or average...true, for a lot of us this may be something that has stuck from pencil and paper RPG days, but for the most part it does apply to Arm. PC chars often act outside the norm, even if what they strive to achieve is to be normal.

Regardless on wether it is true or not, it is a perception issue and most (IMO) of the players will see thier charecters in this way. My char is not special/better then most other vnpc's npc's or pc's for that matter, but, he is different....though I think he is better then anybody elses:) and he knows he is better then everybody else.

And I am never going to get the formatting correct on here...sigh

Something about your responses Fedaykin tell me that you take things way too seriously.

As for the long list of reasons why every individual in the real world is unique and special, including me, that's for you to discover.  I think I have the inside track on the technique for discovering that inner beauty.

As for the world revolving around me - where that figures into the debate, I don't know.  It doesn't have any bearing on the fact that the players and IMMs of Arm are omnipotent creators for our own slice of the game - that wasn't any implication for real life, Fedaykin, maybe you need to chill out a little on that slant.

As for my PC - gosh no, where do you get the notion that she/he is just part of the flock?  The very moment an IMM approved it, it was destined to be beyond unique - that's what characters in a story are, Fedaykin, they are living versions of manifest destiny.  It's quite rhetorical - you only read about the characters in the story, not the ones that aren't written about.  The mere fact that I can create a character, NPC and virtual characters mean that they are all pulled out of the non-existant world and into the existant world, making them each much more important to Arm than any characters that don't exist, the unmentioned virtual populace of Zalanthas, because players never see any large proportion of that virtual populace, they see only the NPCs, PCs and VNPCs that are mentioned.  

So, in a town of 400K for example, how many of that virtual population will ever be mentioned by Arm players?  Not a large percentage, I bet.  So effectively, when no player or IMM ever conjures up any of those virtual people (excluding the virtual ones that are mentioned) they have no impact on anything, they're just the town background.   How can a person who will never exist, that nobody knows anything about and is never mentioned, ever be as important than anyone, virtual or hard-coded, who does exist or is mentioned?

You can disagree politely, but try not to flip out alright?  It's an opinion, I've not presented anything as fact - with opinion, there is no right and wrong. Count to ten and then come back in to contribute to the opinions on what a PC is, philosophically and realistically, to Arm in your opinion.

Quote from: "X-D"Um, notice the little smily ^
That line was joking.

My mistake then.  It seemed like in your previous post the lines following that statement were defending that position.

Quote from: "RideTheDivide"
I remember back in my paper Role Playing days reading something or talking to someone about the idea that PC's are - in some ways - special people. The idea was that while most of the population (the NPC's) are content to go about their lives and do mostly normal things, the PC's are those who want more from life or who are in some way oddballs.

Quote from: "X-D"I think the problem or arguement here is basicly a problem with semantics/definition

What it boils down to then is: Are PC's outside the norm of Zalanthan society?

Quote from: "X-D"PC chars often act outside the norm, even if what they strive to achieve is to be normal.

Personally, I once again think that "normality" is based solely on characters and not necessarily on whether or not those characters are player inhabited or non-player.

If you think as the "norm" as everyday strive to survive commoner life in a world filled with hundreds of years old sorceror kings, magick, mutants etc., many PC's will fall into this "norm," fighting to simply survive most of the time, and some of them won't.  This applies to NPCs and VNPCs as well as there are those go well beyond the norm such as the senior nobles and templars, while most of the NPCs and VNPCs fall within the norm.

Quote from: "Cerebus"
I look at PCs on Zalanthas to be a slice of normal society.

I can't stress this enough.  Ammong PC's, just as ammong NPC's, 95% of them are normal people looking to get by and are relative nobodies, while certain people will manage to do extraordinary or exceptional things.

Certain characters will be different, certain characters won't.  The original question asked whether PC's were "special" or "oddballs."  I feel most PCs are realistically played to reflect Zalanthan soceital norms and therefore that a sweeping generalization labeling PC's in general as "special," "oddballs," or implying that they are all in some way outside the norm is a wrong generalization to make when so many of the PC's clearly reflect that norm.

Gfair, I'll adress your comments to me here since you made them here, but if you have any in the future, please feel free to send them via a private message:

Quote from: "gfair"Something about your responses Fedaykin tell me that you take things way too seriously.

Quote from: "gfair"
You can disagree politely, but try not to flip out alright?  It's an opinion, I've not presented anything as fact - with opinion, there is no right and wrong. Count to ten and then come back in to contribute to the opinions on what a PC is, philosophically and realistically, to Arm in your opinion.

Actually, gfair, I believe thats what I was doing. I felt I expressed my statements quite clearly.  When I say "you," "your," and "yours" (Such as "the world does not revolve around you") I'm typically adressing myself to the significant number of readers on the GDB, and not you in particular, gfair.  If I was directly adressing you personally on the general discussion board, gfair, I'd make it quite clear by using your name, similar to the way you just used mine repeatedly and the way I'm using yours now, or through a private message.

I rebutted your points with those of my own and stated my beliefs in general, gfair.  If you take that as taking things too seriously or believe that disagreement with your opinions is an attack on you personally, then I'm very sorry you feel that way, but you're the one making arguments to the person, not me.  I'll try and stick to the discussion instead:

Quote from: "gfair"
The very moment an IMM approved it, it was destined to be beyond unique - that's what characters in a story are, Fedaykin, they are living versions of manifest destiny.

Personally, I've always thought as Armageddon as more of a "life simulation" then a story, which is probably why I feel characters tend to represent a realisitic slice of the populace.  After all, in most stories you typically find out everything at some point, and in Armageddon you almost never have that chance when your characters die.  As for any notion of destiny, I think Cerebus said it best:

Quote from: "Cerebus"That's why it is so much the sweeter when you do change the world. It was not handed to you. You are not destined for it. You had to have earned it, and that feels damn good.

I don't believe in any form of manifest destiny for PC's, in part, because rarely do any of them achieve anything worthy of note, or anything more than the NPC and VNPC populace.

Quote from: "gfair"
How can a person who will never exist, that nobody knows anything about and is never mentioned, ever be as important than anyone, virtual or hard-coded, who does exist or is mentioned?

When stating "the world doesn not revolve around you," I was trying to highlight one of the key differences in the philosophy here.  I do not believe that simply because their stories are in the background that these people do not exist or they aren't any less real or relevant to the world of Zalanthas.  Thousands of virtual characters who's stories you may never hear and whose names you'll probably never see, still make up large and powerful organizations which can effect major changes.  Characters may only know of the specifics in their local circles, but there are many such other circles out there, despite being in the background.

Quote from: "gfair"As for my PC - gosh no, where do you get the notion that she/he is just part of the flock?

Again, this was meant in general.  I believe until you distinguish your character from the flock, they're apart of it and no different from the NPCs, and by extension VNPCs, sitting at the bar leading their "normal" life.  This is also, once again, why I don't feel it is a good generalization to automatically label PC's as special, different or oddballs, until they prove themselves as such.

Can't we all just get along?

:cry:

I think it is going to boil down to the agree to disagree thing, But I am going to make one more small attempt here using real life and myself.


I myself am not out to change the world, or even to make any mark on it, when I die maybe nobody will even remember or know that I ever existed, this bothers me not in the least, none the less, I am an exceptional charecter and far outside the norm, I am a 32 year old male, I have done more in my life then 95% of the people in the world by the time they are 70, statisticly speaking, people die within 20 miles of where they are born, I know these people, they yearn for nothing but a nice quiet comfortable life and to raise children, Myself, I have been to every state, I have lived in 8 of them for at least a year....I do things all the time because I think that a person's life is nothing but a collection of deeds and memories and I will have no regrets of things I wish I would have done.

To the world, I am not 'special'.

Maybe this makes a bit more sense, maybe not, but I basicly consider every pc in the same light, why, because I know there is a person behind it who is playing a game for the experiance, life simulation or not, therefor your pc's life is nothing but a set of memories and deeds, This is something that no npc or vnpc can say, regardless of how you or anybody else wishes to argue it.

Quote from: "Fedaykin"Gfair, I'll adress your comments to me here since you made them here, but if you have any in the future, please feel free to send them via a private message:

I was, as you were without making the "this is addressed to everyone" disclaimer, only interpreting it as intended.  Since the last part made bold statements like "Think you're special?  Prove it!" and so forth, it seems silly for you to be speaking to anyone else but the person you responded to.  Yes, of course, the interpretation could also be made that you are speaking to a character, but in context, and without anything looking like an adequate disclaimer, and given your past history of comments towards my opinions, it is far too easy to assume that you are singling out one person, and not addressing the group.

Quote from: "Fedaykin"Actually, gfair, I believe thats what I was doing. I felt I expressed my statements quite clearly.  When I say "you," "your," and "yours" (Such as "the world does not revolve around you") I'm typically adressing myself to the significant number of readers on the GDB, and not you in particular, gfair.  If I was directly adressing you personally on the general discussion board, gfair, I'd make it quite clear by using your name, similar to the way you just used mine repeatedly and the way I'm using yours now, or through a private message.

Rather, the better alternative would be to say "You (everyone)" or "if the group of players thinks" or "if each character on Zalanthas thinks".  Those are much better at addressing issues without getting personal.  So, next time, think about that.  You, your, used over and over, makes it unlikely that you are seriously addressing the general readership.

Quote from: "Fedaykin"I rebutted your points with those of my own and stated my beliefs in general, gfair.  If you take that as taking things too seriously or believe that disagreement with your opinions is an attack on you personally, then

You were obviously taking things too seriously at the end of your post, which is quiet consistent with what I've seen from message boards, discussion forums, and conversations in general in life.  The disagreement was not presented as a disagreement at all, but rather in direct contrast, implying there was something wrong.  Just as you failed to include any disclaimer about making comments to the readership or the entire group of characters, you also failed to make any disclaimer about it being your opinion.  While that, too, is an easy assumption, it's also a common failure on the part of the writer to forget that the line between presenting an argument as opinion versus fact is very blurry, made even more so when unsettled.

Hope that gives you some good tips for sharing other opinions when you disagree strongly. Also, saying things like "I disagree", or "We may find no common ground, but I tend to ...", etc.

The art of communicating your message effectively, and as you intend it, is an extremely hard one, Fedaykin, and most people can use a lot of practice, so don't be too cautious in citing context and speaking whatever comes to mind.

Quote from: "Fedaykin"Gfair, I'll adress your comments to me here since you made them here, but if you have any in the future, please feel free to send them via a private message:

I was, as you were without making the "this is addressed to everyone" disclaimer, only interpreting it as intended.  Since the last part made bold statements like "Think you're special?  Prove it!" and so forth, it seems silly for you to be speaking to anyone else but the person you responded to.  Yes, of course, the interpretation could also be made that you are speaking to a character, but in context, and without anything looking like an adequate disclaimer, and given your past history of comments towards my opinions, it is far too easy to assume that you are singling out one person, and not addressing the group.

Quote from: "Fedaykin"Actually, gfair, I believe thats what I was doing. I felt I expressed my statements quite clearly.  When I say "you," "your," and "yours" (Such as "the world does not revolve around you") I'm typically adressing myself to the significant number of readers on the GDB, and not you in particular, gfair.  If I was directly adressing you personally on the general discussion board, gfair, I'd make it quite clear by using your name, similar to the way you just used mine repeatedly and the way I'm using yours now, or through a private message.

Rather, the better alternative would be to say "You (everyone)" or "if the group of players thinks" or "if each character on Zalanthas thinks".  Those are much better at addressing issues without getting personal.  So, next time, think about that.  You, your, used over and over, makes it unlikely that you are seriously addressing the general readership.

Quote from: "Fedaykin"I rebutted your points with those of my own and stated my beliefs in general, gfair.  If you take that as taking things too seriously or believe that disagreement with your opinions is an attack on you personally, then

You were obviously taking things too seriously at the end of your post, which is quiet consistent with what I've seen from message boards, discussion forums, and conversations in general in life.  The disagreement was not presented as a disagreement at all, but rather in direct contrast, implying there was something wrong.  Just as you failed to include any disclaimer about making comments to the readership or the entire group of characters, you also failed to make any disclaimer about it being your opinion.  While that, too, is an easy assumption, it's also a common failure on the part of the writer to forget that the line between presenting an argument as opinion versus fact is very blurry, made even more so when unsettled.

Hope that gives you some good tips for sharing other opinions when you disagree strongly. Also, saying things like "I disagree", or "We may find no common ground, but I tend to ...", etc.

The art of communicating your message effectively, and as you intend it, is an extremely hard one, Fedaykin, and most people can use a lot of practice, so don't be too cautious in citing context and speaking whatever comes to mind.

Thanks to everyone for your input on this.  It really clarified the issue in my mind.  The conclusions I draw from all of this:

- Some at least agree that they view PC's as "exceptional" in that they tend to have a desire to do more with their lives than the average person.  So if I take that mindset when I play I am not entirely out of line.

- There is some concern that this kind of thinking could lead to players thinking of their PC's as "special" or - worse - "above the rules" of everyday life.  So its wise for those of us who do think of things this way to keep that in mind and try to both RP as "plain folk" and have our characters not think of themselves too much as anything other than "plain folk".

Thanks for all the great thoughts on this!  It really helped clarify it in my mind.

Your kidding, we made sense? Wow, Your welcome...I think.

Quote- There is some concern that this kind of thinking could lead to players thinking of their PC's as "special" or - worse - "above the rules" of everyday life. So its wise for those of us who do think of things this way to keep that in mind and try to both RP as "plain folk" and have our characters not think of themselves too much as anything other than "plain folk".

I thought that was worth repeating...and I agree.

Quote from: "RideTheDivide"- Some at least agree that they view PC's as "exceptional" in that they tend to have a desire to do more with their lives than the average person.  So if I take that mindset when I play I am not entirely out of line.

- There is some concern that this kind of thinking could lead to players thinking of their PC's as "special" or - worse - "above the rules" of everyday life.  So its wise for those of us who do think of things this way to keep that in mind and try to both RP as "plain folk" and have our characters not think of themselves too much as anything other than "plain folk".

Well, I think out of all the bickering, you got the meat of the message.

However, I should mention that everyone is more important to themselves than anyone else is.  You can think of yourself as something other than plain, but keep in mind that someone may change those beliefs on you very quickly if you get too uppity.

I hate when two people think the same thing at the same time.


Em glares at the two posts above

Quote from: "X-D"I hate when two people think the same thing at the same time.


Em glares at the two posts above

<--- This is me grinning.

Ideally, the PCs aren't anything different from the normal population. Realistically, they are practically the only population. There is a small society of PCs that make up the majority of the things that happen in the world, and we don't see the effects of NPC's actions very often, from what I've seen. It wouldn't even be that hard for one PC to be known by most of the PCs in the game, but still not be famous in the known world.

Ask yourself this testing question: If there had been no PCs' pushing for independence in the North, would it have rebelled?

I honestly don't know, I'm a newbie, but it seems to me that PCs can and do make an truly exceptional difference in the world. Ten or twenty PCs get together out of the hundreds of thousands of VNPCs... and they can and often do change the world.

We don't really hear about what the NPC's do that often, especially VNPCs, and as far as I can tell they don't make that huge of an effect on the world. If they did, the staff would have to be doing a whole lot of work just for the sake of realism.

[/topic]

Quote from: "gfair"Something about your responses Fedaykin tell me that you take things way too seriously.

Quote from: "gfair"The art of communicating your message effectively, and as you intend it, is an extremely hard one, Fedaykin, and most people can use a lot of practice, so don't be too cautious in citing context and speaking whatever comes to mind.

So which is it?  Am I taking the discussion too "seriously" or am I "too cautious" in speaking whatever comes to my mind?  Or was that simply a line to practice "the art" of condescension?

Quote from: "gfair"without anything looking like an adequate disclaimer, and given your past history of comments towards my opinions, it is far too easy to assume that you are singling out one person, and not addressing the group.

We have a history of me directing comments at your opinions?  Aside from this topic I remember a single issue about ignore and moderation features on the GDB from some months back.  Is there something else I'm missing? I quoted more than just you in that previous topic, and no one else seems to have had any trouble at all in understanding my posts and opinions, aside from yourself. Also, I don't recall a disclaimer in all of your own posts or after all of your own opinions stating them as such.  In an argumentative conversation over unclear issues on the general discussion board, that is typically naturally assumed (*Disclaimer* In my opinion).

Quote from: "gfair"Hope that gives you some good tips for sharing other opinions when you disagree strongly.

Now that we're completely off topic and on to argument making, why don't I reciprocate and give you some constructive advice for attempting to state your own opinions:

Quote from: "Stephen's Guide to Logical Fallacies"
Attacking the Person
(argumentum ad hominem)

Definition: The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of the argument itself.
ad hominem (abusive): instead of attacking an assertion, the argument attacks the person who made the assertion.

No matter how strongly you may have felt I disagreed with your opinions, or how much you felt my disagreement was directed solely at you personally, I was still adressing points and never resorted to attacking you personally.  From your comments at me in this topic and from your comments to those who disagreed with you over the ignore and/or moderating features where you told people who held opposing points of views that they didn't understand the issue or were lacking of the facts, this logical fallacy may be something you have a problem with.  However, I by no means intend to imply that that is indicitive of all your posts.  You typically have good points even if I do not agree with them, and I have nothing against you personally.  If you're going to attack me personally though, there is a deeply ingrained streak in my blood that prevents me from not responding.

[topic]

Quote from: "RideTheDivide"
- There is some concern that this kind of thinking could lead to players thinking of their PC's as "special" or - worse - "above the rules" of everyday life. So its wise for those of us who do think of things this way to keep that in mind and try to both RP as "plain folk" and have our characters not think of themselves too much as anything other than "plain folk".

Indeed.  I'm glad you understand that opinion and where those of us who hold it are coming from even if you don't necessarily hold it yourself, RideTheDivide.  As the staff has already illustrated in a previous thread, http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2720 , often players  have a tendency to believe their characters more important than they actually are and hence can sometimes end up playing somewhat unrealistically within the world.

Quote from: "Sanvean"Basically, players overlook the virtual world when estimating their place in it, and tend to assume themselves much more important than they are.

That is what I think many people who hold this opinion are simply trying to prevent, and towards that end do not want to see a bad precedent of PC's being viewed as more important or special than the rest of the populace started.

Quote from: "RideTheDivide"Thanks to everyone for your input on this. It really clarified the issue in my mind.

I'm glad the topic helped to at least clarify the various points of view on the issue :)