Armageddon General Discussion Board

This is a thread for some brainstorming on player retention.

There are several things we can do to bring in new players, period, and the biggest one is voting (obligatory "get out the vote" msg!).  However, after they get here, we want to find ways to get more of them to stay.

What suggestions do you have for player retention?

I may be biased but hear me out.
Make things less system base/allow more 'change' after char gen.
I'll post more later after class.

Just dropping in my idea regarding the possibility of a random character "Generator" for new players. It would basically write their sdesc, mdesc, and background for them after letting them pick "The Fun Stuff" so they could go ahead and get in the game and give it a try.

Another one I have thought of recently.

You know how on the "Loading Screens" for some games it gives you tips and hints for how to better play the game?

Newbie accounts could possibly be setup with a code that sends them and only them "Hints" randomly about how to play the game.

One ever few minutes.

You could of course turn this off by typing "Hints Off". Of course, one of the hints you would get would be....

"Hint - To turn off these hints, just type "Hints Off"".

Examples:

"You should always bow to southern Templars."

"Hint - See "help emote" to improve your roleplaying!"

"Hint - Read Board in any room with a board to see the recent rumors and find out who's hiring!"

"Hint - Just type the first letter of the direction you want to walk to move in that direction!"

"Hint - You can sit at a table or bar with someone just by typing "Sit" with one of their keywoards. Sit With Purple."

"Hint - Type Score to see your stats! Type Skill to see your skills!"

"Hint - Use Talk instead of Say to talk to the people only at the table or bar you are sitting at!"




Things like that.

Quote from: Desertman on October 27, 2015, 02:38:15 PM
Just dropping in my idea regarding the possibility of a random character "Generator" for new players. It would basically write their sdesc, mdesc, and background for them after letting them pick "The Fun Stuff" so they could go ahead and get in the game and give it a try.

Requiring players to write their descriptions is itself a litmus test for whether they can actually write in English. 

If we ever did anything like the above it would need to be regulated in some other fashion.  We truly cannot handle an increase of +500% in actual new PC logins.

Quote from: Nyr on October 27, 2015, 02:53:40 PM

Quote from: Desertman on October 27, 2015, 02:38:15 PM
Just dropping in my idea regarding the possibility of a random character "Generator" for new players. It would basically write their sdesc, mdesc, and background for them after letting them pick "The Fun Stuff" so they could go ahead and get in the game and give it a try.

Requiring players to write their descriptions is itself a litmus test for whether they can actually write in English.  

If we ever did anything like the above it would need to be regulated in some other fashion.  We truly cannot handle an increase of +500% in actual new PC logins.

That's a good point I had not considered.

Maybe have them write their description but give them an option for a randomly generated background?

The description might be a "fun" part for some people. But for someone brand new to the game writing a background that actually fits the world seems like the part where they will most likely say, "Yeah, screw this crap. I don't have time to go to the website and read forty pages of docs just to play this MUD.".

1.  Find ways to make clan recruits less likely to end up alone and bored, trapped by a schedule.  New players benefit from being in a clan when it works right; they have someone to show them the ropes and are somewhat shielded from the harsh realities of the struggle for survival in our game.

2.  Clans could have reciprocal agreements, where their members could train or hunt or whatever with each other, in times of lean numbers.  This really helped me in the times it's been available.  It'd have to be worked out in a way to make sense, of course, but idling in a clan hall doesn't compete well with other games that you could be playing instead, and when you're new, you might not know what else to do on your own.  Anyway, anything we can do to make clans better for new players would be great.

3.  Our GDB treatment of each other should always be respectful, even during times of heated disagreement.  We are a small and dwindling group of enthusiasts and we should value each other even if our PCs don't.  We are all at least fairly able to express ourselves, given the platform of the game we've chosen, and most of us are adults.  We should be able to debate anything without insulting or abusing each other.  When you see people sniping at each other on the boards, many might not choose to try to be part of that community.  And we -need- each other, because there's not too many people who 'get' us.

4.  Is there still a limit on the size of the Byn?  I'd suggest removing that, if not the limits on all clans, especially newbie-friendly ones.  If you've got a popular leader who draws in players because they're having fun, that's a good thing.

Time to explain more.
Lets say you are new to the game and playing Bob.
Bob joins X organization and finds himself needing to use/wants to use a sword or something other than a small dagger and the like.
Bob thought being a non combat class would be fun at the time.
Bob is in a situation he can't avoid due to X and wants to learn how to use a sword to make his life realistically easier.
Bob asks admin chat and receives " As for actually getting the skill - no, that isn't something that can happen."
Bob is confused, why can't Bob just learn how to use a sword? Rip Bob.
Not really in all terms but thats frustrating.

In other ways I think the game is already welcoming to new people, maybe a bit vague but you can figure it out.
I don't necessarily like the idea behind "Die a few times and figure it out" though, because then you just meta information over characters.

I think that behind the scenes, the game should have a story that's going on.  Maybe the players only catch glimpses of it from time to time, if they even manage to do that much.  But it should be there, quietly clicking away and running the show, informing staff decisions, and giving Storytellers and semi-informed pcs a place to hang their plots and draw others in to the net.  Maybe it's just staff being aware of what Tektolnes and his Black Robes are plotting in Allanak this month.  Maybe it's something else.  Whatever it is, it should exist, whether it becomes a great big HRPT or not.

Television shows, comic books, and video games usually have a lot of side moments, monster of the week episodes, or fetch quests that explore the lore of the world, expand on individual characters, offer a rip-roaring good fun time, and provide small, encapsulated stories of their own - but in the end, these all spiral gradually towards the "main plotline."   Armageddon has an amazing universe with a lot of lore and a lot of elbow room for individual stories to be told - but, just lately, it doesn't feel as though there's any major story arcs going on.  And I think major story arcs really draw in players like nothing else.

Yeah, I know how much work that is for staff.  I know it real damn well.  But face it - when there are a lot of plots and "big style" rpts happening, you get more people logging in, and more people staying to enjoy the afterglow and roll up a new character. That's facts.

Along with the whole "no story thing going on" even when things do go on they just end.
I want there to always be something going on. Someone make Tektolnas actually scheme some shit.

Quote from: Jihelu on October 27, 2015, 03:06:48 PM
Time to explain more.
Lets say you are new to the game and playing Bob.
Bob joins X organization and finds himself needing to use/wants to use a sword or something other than a small dagger and the like.
Bob thought being a non combat class would be fun at the time.
Bob is in a situation he can't avoid due to X and wants to learn how to use a sword to make his life realistically easier.
Bob asks admin chat and receives " As for actually getting the skill - no, that isn't something that can happen."
Bob is confused, why can't Bob just learn how to use a sword? Rip Bob.
Not really in all terms but thats frustrating.

In other ways I think the game is already welcoming to new people, maybe a bit vague but you can figure it out.
I don't necessarily like the idea behind "Die a few times and figure it out" though, because then you just meta information over characters.

This is honestly one of my biggest turnoffs to Arm. Why can't Bob learn how to use a sword? He's a person with a brain and he can practice using a sword and get better at it, can't he?

It feels like an ancient limitation of code that needs to be done away with.

Quote from: In Dreams on October 27, 2015, 03:15:59 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on October 27, 2015, 03:06:48 PM
Time to explain more.
Lets say you are new to the game and playing Bob.
Bob joins X organization and finds himself needing to use/wants to use a sword or something other than a small dagger and the like.
Bob thought being a non combat class would be fun at the time.
Bob is in a situation he can't avoid due to X and wants to learn how to use a sword to make his life realistically easier.
Bob asks admin chat and receives " As for actually getting the skill - no, that isn't something that can happen."
Bob is confused, why can't Bob just learn how to use a sword? Rip Bob.
Not really in all terms but thats frustrating.

In other ways I think the game is already welcoming to new people, maybe a bit vague but you can figure it out.
I don't necessarily like the idea behind "Die a few times and figure it out" though, because then you just meta information over characters.

This is honestly one of my biggest turnoffs to Arm. Why can't Bob learn how to use a sword? He's a person with a brain and he can practice using a sword and get better at it, can't he?

It feels like an ancient limitation of code that needs to be done away with.

Not even the coded aspect makes me mad.
Just allow staff to let people learn some things.
Worse case scenario they die in a week.
Best case they become the best swordsmen.
I don't think people should be able to learn everything. It should be hard coded to prevent that. But staff and roleplay should be the medium between "What you can and can't do" and right now it seems to be "What you can't" do.

It makes me even feel worse when I read cool stories of like "staff let me make this super cool magick thing campaign and all this other shit" and I'm over here like "So when can I learn sword"

Quote from: Desertman on October 27, 2015, 02:38:15 PM
Just dropping in my idea regarding the possibility of a random character "Generator" for new players. It would basically write their sdesc, mdesc, and background for them after letting them pick "The Fun Stuff" so they could go ahead and get in the game and give it a try.

There already is one of those online, it's just not part of the "official" arm docs. But it was written especially for Armageddon by one of the players. Someone just needs to make it part of the official docs and link it to the main website.

Quote from: Lizzie on October 27, 2015, 03:20:58 PM

Quote from: Desertman on October 27, 2015, 02:38:15 PM
Just dropping in my idea regarding the possibility of a random character "Generator" for new players. It would basically write their sdesc, mdesc, and background for them after letting them pick "The Fun Stuff" so they could go ahead and get in the game and give it a try.

There already is one of those online, it's just not part of the "official" arm docs. But it was written especially for Armageddon by one of the players. Someone just needs to make it part of the official docs and link it to the main website.

Fair enough.

I think having it actually in the client would be more effective in terms of accomplishing the end goal however.

I can see the reasons for limiting new skills on a character build, but a good compromise could be something like:

"You may learn ONE extra skill after character generation with the proper amount of roleplaying IG (e.g. who are you learning it from? How are you learning it? How often are you practicing? Show this in logs and send in a write-up to staff). This extra skill does not include sorcery or magic. Any additional new skills will require trading it for one existing skill. You may not learn more than one new skill every four RL months." Staff would have to decide where these skills are capped at, and for which guilds.

For example, many years ago I had an assassin PC who ended up constantly hanging out with some hunters and one of them taught her how to skin. So I got novice skin, after proving I'd roleplayed the lessons out. It was capped pretty low, but at least I could use it. Nowadays, I don't think that would be an option at all. But it's a totally reasonable request.

I have more thoughts on storytelling I'll have to get into later, Laura covered it pretty well.

I just gotta wait for when I teach my self sorcerery and unarmed combat...such is life.

New player guides (documents) That tell new players how the code works with regard to new character creation.  Yes it's part of the litmus test to glean that information from the guild description, but the test is just as frequently can you google search to find another (toxic) site that has this information?  Just telling them what skills each guild/sub-guild grants and where they cap doesn't have anything to do with lore or finding out IC - With the exception, maybe, of magickers - but we're talking about new player retention, so keep magickers and Templar skill sets off the table.  Even extended sub-guilds.  Just help people make characters that aren't gimped because a Warrior/Guard sounds like a cool concept, but that new player is pretty much throwing their sub-guild choice away.

Also start primary guild skills at the bottom of Apprentice instead of Novice.  Branched skills can grind away, but few new players come into game understanding how much they are going to suck at the skills they think (and probably background app'd) their character as having made a living at.  Not sucking out the gate makes for a better new player experience.  You're still not going to be good.  Not sucking would be pretty hot for characters that die and need to start over too.

Here are some thoughts about stories.  First, thanks to staff for all the work they put in.  Some of this will be critical, but with an aim towards the positive, so, you know, constructive feedback, from a limited perspective here.  I'm also light on suggestions, but hopefully it'll get some brainstorming happening, (or not).

1. Stories/Storytelling. I too have noticed that the 'big plots' seem to suffer from problems (think back to the recent one in Allanak):

a) They tend to be hard to observe/get involved in, until its too late, and then it feels like a bit of a light show.

b) They tend to be hard to understand as a commoner PC, before, during, and after the event.

c) They tend to just end (maybe a factor of (a) and (b)).

Suggestions:

a) A lot of plots trickle down from leadership and sometimes they don't reach the bottom tiers, and, in any case, they wouldn't reach independents and the like, so perhaps try to do a lateral-oriented approach to seeding the plots, e.g., drop some hint bombs in the Gaj, post rumours, look into what player plots are going on and slip in some hints in your reaction to those, etc.

b) Post rumours.  Please please please post rumours.  The onus should be on staff here -- I've seen several big events from a very limited perspective and so wasn't in any place to post a rumour or understand the event, and never saw a rumour.  The rumour should help us commoners who might have missed the big event (a riot for instance) understand what went on, so we can incorporate that plot into our roleplay, thus generating more plots around it.  In fact, a lot of plot movement can just be rumours.  This addresses the before and after.  (I know sometimes rumours get posted, but I'm saying: do it way more often.)  (I'll stop, but this is one of my peeves: when some giant ass beast just decimated the Gaj, and the NPCs are the same, and the PCs in there just logged in, and so are like: huh, what?)

Echoes As for the 'during the event', I've had several times where it's been kind of spammy and I miss the world echoes - perhaps consider putting those in bold so we catch them, and having more of them, so we can better understand what's going on.  Once we get the idea of what staff thinks is going on (oh, there are giant bats over the city, ok!), then we can incorporate that in our emotes as part of the virtual world too.

Arrange In combination with the rumours, try to arrange things (with 'arrange') so we know, for instance, that there's a big blood stain on the floor there.

Timing.  The code in Armageddon is fast and brutal, but when a cool story is going on, I'd like to have some time to let it soak in.  But often things happen so fast, I'm just like: What the fuck happened there (scroll up up up up)?  I know you can't slow down mobs (wait, can you?) but it might be nice to slow things down a bit more than I've at least noticed.

c) A lot of what Laura says rings true about keeping 'the big one' moving.

I have other thoughts on retention and stories, but that went on for a bit.  Like I said, I'm sure a lot of this happens, or is obvious, but I hope those observations were helpful.

Maybe give Helpers an in-game "Helper Channel" they can access where the ONLY thing they can see is that there are "New Players".

They can't even see the sdesc. Literally all they would see is...

Helper Who

"There are 4 new players in the world." (New players would be players who are on accounts that have existed for less than a RL month?)

Help List

(Here we would randomly generate them a "Name" to refer to as a keyword for ease of use.)

Bob
Darrel
Cindy
Patrick

helpsend Bob Hey there I see you are new to the game. I'm a game helper. If you have any questions you can send them to me now by typing "HelpWish Jack" and then your message.

Something like that. The specifics don't even matter.

The core here is a channel for helpers to actually send new players in game messages and get responses from them in order to help them with newbie questions.

"An RPT a day keeps the Jcarters away."

Quote from: LauraMars on October 27, 2015, 03:10:32 PM
I think that behind the scenes, the game should have a story that's going on.  Maybe the players only catch glimpses of it from time to time, if they even manage to do that much.  But it should be there, quietly clicking away and running the show, informing staff decisions, and giving Storytellers and semi-informed pcs a place to hang their plots and draw others in to the net.  Maybe it's just staff being aware of what Tektolnes and his Black Robes are plotting in Allanak this month.  Maybe it's something else.  Whatever it is, it should exist, whether it becomes a great big HRPT or not.

Television shows, comic books, and video games usually have a lot of side moments, monster of the week episodes, or fetch quests that explore the lore of the world, expand on individual characters, offer a rip-roaring good fun time, and provide small, encapsulated stories of their own - but in the end, these all spiral gradually towards the "main plotline."   Armageddon has an amazing universe with a lot of lore and a lot of elbow room for individual stories to be told - but, just lately, it doesn't feel as though there's any major story arcs going on.  And I think major story arcs really draw in players like nothing else.

Yeah, I know how much work that is for staff.  I know it real damn well.  But face it - when there are a lot of plots and "big style" rpts happening, you get more people logging in, and more people staying to enjoy the afterglow and roll up a new character. That's facts.

+1  

Couldn't say it better.  The best way to keep people playing, is to make the world feel like it's alive and cool shit can happen at any moment.  You want to login after a weekend away and hear about all this cool stuff that happened, and go "damn, wish I had time to play this last weekend!  I'm going to set aside saturday afternoon for Arm next weekend!".

For those of you who missed it, last night was one of those moments.  Some awesome Allanaki blood and sand moments.

Quote from: LauraMars on October 27, 2015, 03:10:32 PM
I think that behind the scenes, the game should have a story that's going on.  Maybe the players only catch glimpses of it from time to time, if they even manage to do that much.  But it should be there, quietly clicking away and running the show, informing staff decisions, and giving Storytellers and semi-informed pcs a place to hang their plots and draw others in to the net.  Maybe it's just staff being aware of what Tektolnes and his Black Robes are plotting in Allanak this month.  Maybe it's something else.  Whatever it is, it should exist, whether it becomes a great big HRPT or not.

Television shows, comic books, and video games usually have a lot of side moments, monster of the week episodes, or fetch quests that explore the lore of the world, expand on individual characters, offer a rip-roaring good fun time, and provide small, encapsulated stories of their own - but in the end, these all spiral gradually towards the "main plotline."   Armageddon has an amazing universe with a lot of lore and a lot of elbow room for individual stories to be told - but, just lately, it doesn't feel as though there's any major story arcs going on.  And I think major story arcs really draw in players like nothing else.

Yeah, I know how much work that is for staff.  I know it real damn well.  But face it - when there are a lot of plots and "big style" rpts happening, you get more people logging in, and more people staying to enjoy the afterglow and roll up a new character. That's facts.

I was actually gonna say something like that, but yeah, you say it better.

I've played this game for a billion years (give or take) and it's always been Muk Utep vs Tektolnes vs the Mysterious Sandlord That Nobody Has Ever Seen.

New major characters would be -great-.

If you don't have the energy/drive/time to make "big things" happen anymore then pass the flag on to someone else who wants to make these things happen. It would be unfair to the players if you would just sit on your laurels and be satisfied with the status quo while the game loses its appeal for many because nothing ever seems to happen.

(I'm not targeting anyone when I say "you", nor do I know about any of the Staff, so please don't feel targeted - Just saying it in general.)

I'll vote for a more dynamic and active story along with others.  It doesn't always need to be in the same area of the world, but I think part of the downturn at the moment is due to the lack of major events.  People's interest was piqued by the 'election' and Tuluk closure plots because it felt like things were going on in the world.  Even if these are pre-canned and players can't affect them much, it creates a sense of vibrancy that gives people stuff to talk about.

Also, I think it should be easier to get involved in clans, especially as a non-combat character.  Many other RP muds now have options to join the 'basic' clans right out of chargen, which hooks you up with other characters easily and gives you some objectives.

Maybe an in-game newbie/guide channel would be of assistance as well.  Many people probably don't realize there's a web tool you can log into, or aren't willing to through the extra effort.

Quote from: Malken on October 27, 2015, 04:05:23 PM

Quote from: LauraMars on October 27, 2015, 03:10:32 PM
I think that behind the scenes, the game should have a story that's going on.  Maybe the players only catch glimpses of it from time to time, if they even manage to do that much.  But it should be there, quietly clicking away and running the show, informing staff decisions, and giving Storytellers and semi-informed pcs a place to hang their plots and draw others in to the net.  Maybe it's just staff being aware of what Tektolnes and his Black Robes are plotting in Allanak this month.  Maybe it's something else.  Whatever it is, it should exist, whether it becomes a great big HRPT or not.

Television shows, comic books, and video games usually have a lot of side moments, monster of the week episodes, or fetch quests that explore the lore of the world, expand on individual characters, offer a rip-roaring good fun time, and provide small, encapsulated stories of their own - but in the end, these all spiral gradually towards the "main plotline."   Armageddon has an amazing universe with a lot of lore and a lot of elbow room for individual stories to be told - but, just lately, it doesn't feel as though there's any major story arcs going on.  And I think major story arcs really draw in players like nothing else.

Yeah, I know how much work that is for staff.  I know it real damn well.  But face it - when there are a lot of plots and "big style" rpts happening, you get more people logging in, and more people staying to enjoy the afterglow and roll up a new character. That's facts.

I was actually gonna say something like that, but yeah, you say it better.

I've played this game for a billion years (give or take) and it's always been Muk Utep vs Tektolnes vs the Mysterious Sandlord That Nobody Has Ever Seen.

New major characters would be -great-.

Or - introduce us to a -direct- minion of the Sandlord. Special app, animated NPC, recruited in-game, whatever. Just anyone who is directly involved with the Sandlord, who can trickle down plotlines with enough "street cred" to make their rep stick and count for something.

What do you mean new major characters?

I see a lot of you want to see plot.  Now when you guys talk these large plots, are we talking plots that you guys see, but are unable to interact with, but may affect the game world you play in?  Say for example, a battle between Red Storm and Some Raiders where fights will be heard about on the rumor boards, or through animations, but you really have no capacity to change the outcome.  You may see a few raiders outside Red Storm, you can kill them, but this doesn't mean you beat them back.

Or are you guys looking for more interactive large plots?  Something where player action does make a difference.  Say for example the raider leader is camped somewhere and if the players kill him, Red Storm may owe a debt to the players.

The big difference here is how much time is invested.  Big plots that include major player interaction require a lot of work, planned RPTs, planning, etc.  That which doesn't require much interaction and really only affects the game world and the players are the viewers and somewhat affected, these are more easy to manage on a staff level.

These are just some talking points, so I'm interested in hearing what you guys have to say.

I recall a plot where the T'zai Byn went out to shitstomp some raiders in the salt flats. That was a really awesome plot. It didn't affect the entire world. It involved around 20 players and there was a definitive start and endpoint.

In the end I think the players didn't really affect the outcome very much. The sad truth is they lost the fight but the raiders still got destroyed due to staff intervention.

Either way, it was a very fun event in my opinion and a solid example of a "small time" plot that included a lot of people but didn't need to include the world or even have any real lasting effects.

More staff driven plots.

1)  Player driven plots require a lot more coordination and raw effort to get off the ground than staff plots.  

My post on this thread goes into detail on why this is ((http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg909381.html#msg909381 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50010.msg909381.html#msg909381)))

2)  Staff plots are able to reach higher than player plots in most cases (Red Robes, mythical creatures, etc...players can only react to that stuff, they can't directly stir it up).  

3)  Staff plots are able to reach lower than player plots.  Lower in the sense that they could just be events that Zalanthas would experience from time to time, without any particular social motivations that the players see.  For instance, if staff loaded up a random group of gith raiders to terrorize the southlands for a day, only to be killed off or retreat the same day.  Something like that would add a ton of flavor and excitement to the world that doesn't necessarily require a lot of build up or aftermath work.  Desertman's example above is exactly what I mean.

Quote from: Ath on October 27, 2015, 04:15:23 PM
What do you mean new major characters?

I see a lot of you want to see plot.  Now when you guys talk these large plots, are we talking plots that you guys see, but are unable to interact with, but may affect the game world you play in?  Say for example, a battle between Red Storm and Some Raiders where fights will be heard about on the rumor boards, or through animations, but you really have no capacity to change the outcome.  You may see a few raiders outside Red Storm, you can kill them, but this doesn't mean you beat them back.

Or are you guys looking for more interactive large plots?  Something where player action does make a difference.  Say for example the raider leader is camped somewhere and if the players kill him, Red Storm may owe a debt to the players.

The big difference here is how much time is invested.  Big plots that include major player interaction require a lot of work, planned RPTs, planning, etc.  That which doesn't require much interaction and really only affects the game world and the players are the viewers and somewhat affected, these are more easy to manage on a staff level.

These are just some talking points, so I'm interested in hearing what you guys have to say.

I think both are good.  The game world is supposed to be huge, and just hearing about things going on makes it feel more alive, and having an admin's word of god behind 'this happened the other day' makes it more legit than people just making up potential things.  You can drop rumors about current events and use people's interest levels in different rumors to gauge which ones you turn into more player-interactive storylines.

The kind of objective you described with the raider leader doesn't necessarily require a big admin RPT.  You could just drop a fortified 3-room encampment in the game, and have a trophy item on the leader that can be acquired for turn-in.  I know it might seem a little more like an MMO's 'quests,' but it's also something I'd like to see more of in the world -- more tools for us to go out and make our own fun.  Military clans in particular often stagnate because there's not really a lot of opportunities for them to actually go out and do military operations.  The warcraft/fort system that SoI has is probably too complex for Arm's engine as it stands, but I'd love to see neutral villages and forts that have to be captured or guarded every so often.


Unrelated:  I think one of the biggest barriers to entry is for a new player are as follows:
1.  What am I supposed to 'do?'
2.  What is the difference between PCs and NPCs?  How can I tell which is which?
3.  Where the hell are all the PCs, anyway?  (the way change helped with this, but players can't Way PCs until they've met them)


On another game we handled the second point by making NPCs a different 'color' than PCs, but that's not an option on Arm, it seems.
As for the third point, every other RP mud has some variation on an RP hotspot or notification system to make it easier to find RP, especially during off-peak hours.

+1 for small time random and generally pointless happenings.

There doesn't NEED to be a reason for six gith in a "raiding party" to show up and start camping the Salt Road other than "This gith has decided he wants to do this.", that is where the story can end and it will still give people something to do.

There doesn't NEED to be a reason that a "flock" of eight silt-fliers has been reported to be swooping down in a group and terrorizing the mining fields west of Allanak. They just roamed up and there they are to get destroyed or do some destroying of their own...and the story ends there.

There doesn't NEED to be a reason "Gulgak the rinth dwarf was just spotted killing someone in the street and now he's on the loose for the AOD to chase down.". He may even intentionally put himself in harms way (staff decision, obviously Gulgak wouldn't know he was doing it, he would think he was being cunning or whatever) so the AOD can get their hands on him....and the storyline ends there.

Things like that. I don't see why we need a lot of staff involvement and writing plotlines and getting them approved to throw out one of these sorts of things a week where the whole city can hear about it and those who are in a position can do something about it, or ignore it if they choose.

If they do happen to organically create interest in an off-shoot plotline and the avenue is there then staff can write a deeper story and get it approved and pursue it.

When I DM some of the most interesting things my players get into are stories I have written up based entirely on the random things they decided to do during encounters that I fully intended to never have a storyline.

Yeah, I think that the game could benefit from more low-rent 'random encounters' that don't have a huge depth of characterization, but allow staff to do some quick in-and-out storytelling, tabletop gaming style.

Here's an example, stolen from something I did as a head builder/storyteller in another game, long ago.

Our admin wanted to create a new hunting area (it was an RP-enforced hack-n-slash, where the #1 way to level up was to hunt but not the only way).

I came up with the idea of a haunted house and yard near the outskirts of town. I explained the concept, the types of "mobs" we'd have, and he had the coder build the mobs themselves with whatever stats and gen rates and whatever else (I left mob-building to the admin/coder people).

I then created the avatar I'd play for the grand opening, along with another builder who often worked with me on projects. My avatar was a little girl, an orphan who had been raised by the "middle" lands (there was dark, neutral, light). I had her show up spontaneously for no particular reason, just as a way of getting people used to seeing her around. She'd sit on a half-giant's lap and demand story-time, and the half-giant would send his message to the game-world (we had a public psi channel) that he was gonna have story time so everyone gather round. So that HG, played by just a player, would create that little impromptu RPT. Then another time I'd have my little girl show up in another section, maybe walk into one of the workshops where a tailor PC was working, dragging along a raggedy doll with a torn dress. She'd walk in crying because her dolly's dress was ripped, and he help? And we'd have a little RP time with him emoting out fixing the dress - and I'd change the description of the doll to reflect the recent repair. I'd do a bunch of these for around two weeks.

Then one day she showed up in another part of the game world, maybe at the bar in the other town, with her newly fixed dolly, and asked if anyone had seen her best pal. So they'd all go on a hunt for her best pal. My co-staffer, who was playing the best pal, would be wizinvis near the new hunting area, and my avatar would run home to her auntie in case her pal showed up. And then I'd switch out to play the crazy old fortuneteller lady who suffered from narcolepsy. I'd have her just a few rooms away from where people were looking, and as soon as they came her way I'd have a little something to say about portents of doom and something spooky, and maybe include a hint of what the best pal looked like in a "vision." She'd tell the legend of the old hermit, complete with a description of the shack and the basement. And then of course my chick fell asleep standing up, came to, and demanded to know who stole the glasses that were on top of her head.

Finally one of the players would get the hint and start looking on the outskirts of the lightlands - and my co-worker would start doing the "kid is yelling and screaming for help" bit, and I'd add some spooky effects with game-wide emotes and region-wide emotes.

My friend was already "in" her avatar (this was a MOO, you could just "become" any avatar you had authority to use, and could make your own any time), invis and ready to come out when the time was right.

They finally found the little boy, battered and bruised, but not til after they had hunted through the haunted house and discovered the ghosts and ghouls of dead children in the basement, where the boy was hiding inside a big dresser drawer.

They defeated the ghost of the hermit and recovered his axe, and the hunting area was made available, as an undead hunting area with modest treasures.

The entire process took around a month from start to finish, but the actual coded part of the mobs took I think a day - and the avatar creation took me and my co-worker around 20 minutes each.

I was able to re-use the little girl avatar on subsequent RPTs - she became a minor character in the world that people knew and could interact with at random times - sometimes for RPTs, sometimes just because I enjoyed playing her and would bring her out to goof around with the "adults" in the game.

Quote from: Ath on October 27, 2015, 04:15:23 PM
What do you mean new major characters?

In a lot of other RP environs, there are PCs that are real movers and shakers on a level bigger than they can do on Arm. They can start wars or affect the political landscape beyond small personal conflicts. It seems like PCs are in a world with a very low ceiling here.

Why not put some trust in the players and expand the scope of our impact on the world a little bit?

Some more random examples of "low budget" encounter style events, that don't necessarily involve combat...mainly because I think the combat RPT's probably see the most attention now and days:

• An incredibly harsh sandstorm hits, and staff go around animating the world to show just how devastating it can be.  Kill off mounts, periodic HP damage to those who don't take cover, etc.
• Drop a single tiny nugget of silver in a random spot, watch the excitement and plots that come from it.
• A Red Robe of the Trade Ministry decides to make a spot inspection of the Kadian compound.  You have 1 IC day to prepare for their arrival....GO!
• A shipment of spice is lost in a sandstorm, and House Kurac tells the PC Fist unit to go ride out and find it before it's stolen. (Oh, and by the way, the same rumor is dropped to numerous other groups...just for a little competition.

I'm a big fan of some rewards, trophies, perks being available too for a successful outing.  It feels like Armageddon is incredibly stingy when it comes with rewarding PCs.

QuoteIt feels like Armageddon is incredibly stingy when it comes with rewarding PCs.

This is probably an overreaction to the constant accusations of staff favoritism in certain quarters, and the past reality of blatant staff favoritism and avatarism as represented by the fabled Floating Castle Guy.

Quote from: Ath on October 27, 2015, 04:15:23 PM
What do you mean new major characters?

I see a lot of you want to see plot.  Now when you guys talk these large plots, are we talking plots that you guys see, but are unable to interact with, but may affect the game world you play in?  Say for example, a battle between Red Storm and Some Raiders where fights will be heard about on the rumor boards, or through animations, but you really have no capacity to change the outcome.  You may see a few raiders outside Red Storm, you can kill them, but this doesn't mean you beat them back.

Or are you guys looking for more interactive large plots?  Something where player action does make a difference.  Say for example the raider leader is camped somewhere and if the players kill him, Red Storm may owe a debt to the players.

The big difference here is how much time is invested.  Big plots that include major player interaction require a lot of work, planned RPTs, planning, etc.  That which doesn't require much interaction and really only affects the game world and the players are the viewers and somewhat affected, these are more easy to manage on a staff level.

These are just some talking points, so I'm interested in hearing what you guys have to say.

I know that my "Why not both?" sounds like I'm a heartless dude not caring about the amount of work you guys would have to do for that to happen, but please understand that by that I mean that it could be a super -long- story that would get "updated" once in a while and that new things would pop up about it, NOTICEABLE things.

Like we hear the rumors of a powerful tribal leader who has conquered the Seik and the Arabeti and he's like, "Ok you pricks, you are now one tribe and you are called the Schmoofs, no more Seik and Arabeti BS". So now the Schmoofs are under the leadership of this powerful tribal guy who may/may not have some super wicked powers and slowly he decides that he also wants to take over the tribal lands and at some point he gets somewhere with it and now the Schmoofs have a new camp deeper into the tablelands and the d-elves have to start worrying about that dude.

Then the Schmoofs leader decides that he's strong enough to take on Muk Utep and maybe he even -destroys- Muk Utep but he just wants Muk Utep's axe.. So now Muk Utep is finally gone-gone from the game and there's a power vacuum going on in Tuluk and someday (maybe months, maybe years) we'll see a new powerful dude taking over the city and Muk Utep will just be a legend of the past, so when we are all in our 50s we can tell the youngins' that there used to be a Muk Utep guy and a Tektolnes but no one remembers these guys because they have long been replaced by other powerful dudes.

Part of the story can be experienced by the players and the other part leaves "permanent" and new powerful characters that take over the old ones and at least we have a sense that Armageddon has a sort of "main story" that evolves with time.

Quote from: Erythil on October 27, 2015, 04:48:55 PM

QuoteIt feels like Armageddon is incredibly stingy when it comes with rewarding PCs.

This is probably an overreaction to the constant accusations of staff favoritism in certain quarters, and the past reality of blatant staff favoritism and avatarism as represented by the fabled Floating Castle Guy.

I'm also not suggesting we give PC's steel swords and flying mounts (at least not often...something along those lines should happen every few years though).  I just mean simple "uncommon" level stuff.  Here's an unusual gith book.  It's written in their foreign tongue, so, you aren't ever going to read it...but you have it!   Or here's an odd colored mount, or let me tell you a secret you might not otherwise find out...  You know, stuff that makes you go "neat!", especially for us veterans who rarely get those kind of moments from day to day play.

In reference to my above post: My point is, I'd love to see "real characters" - avatars who might not have any particular significance to the game world, but be played by staff, who serve a "while you're bored, here's just a little something fun to chew on" function. Maybe the one-armed ex-recruit of a dead VNPC Guild boss who you bring out in the Gaj to demonstrate why a new player should probably not go around telling everyone he's a thief and is for hire. Or perhaps have one of the Kadian Junior agents of some other virtual Kadian crew come to the crafting hall to bitch about how he had to fire everyone in his crew for insubordination and now he needs exactly two pairs of white silk gloves for Lord Jojo Fale in an hour or else, and he'll pay 200 sids to the first one to bring them to him as a bonus.

Or some random grebber outside Luir's comes rushing up to the firepit (where there's a bunch of PCs resting their mounts), all bloodied up and not looking well, screaming about the crazed gurth (and then make some weird spotted gurth that some evil VNPC hunter glued a lit tube of aggross to its mouth or something and give it mul rage with a hopped up offense and unarmed skill - their prize for taking it down: the tube of aggross and maybe an interesting arrow).

Or, my personal favorite - have a tregil take a shit on a Kurac sergeant's boots when they're out hunting :)

I wasn't really suggesting any specific plot or story ideas (the ones mentioned are interesting though).   Just the idea of having heavy plot elements hanging in the background like curtains is something I miss recognizing.   It's also something that can naturally spawn plenty of smaller player-driven plots if twisted right.  

If there's a big story grinding slowly into existence, people can feel it, they can smell it, and they want to get involved and get their friends involved.  It's usually more than "there's something in the sewer again!" or "guys its raider o clock" or even "POLITICS: THE RPT" (there is absolutely nothing wrong with those types of plots either, btw. All that stuff is aces too). That feeling of a main plotline simmering on the back burner is hard to articulate, but it's just something that I've noticed seems to be absent at the moment, though I am sure it will come around again eventually.  

I do feel, however, that flexibility and spontaneity are pretty key attitudes to have when attempting something like that.  The more flexibility a plot has at the outset, the better.  I've seen multi-month, multi-clan plots spawn from a single npc with a treasure map, I doubt there was a ten point proposal and color coded outline behind the idea initially.  All I'm saying is, if anyone feels motivated to write that kind of story, I think they should write it. DO IT.  Throw dumb ideas at players until they stick, then be flexible, if players go somewhere with it that you weren't expecting (and they will), don't get frustrated - follow them off the tracks.  Players are dice, and they just need someone to roll them.  

If people don't wanna do any of that well that's ok too. It's just a hobby at the end of the day.  Most dungeon masters dungeon master because they want to, not because they feel they have to.  But hopefully there's still people who want to be the master of this dungeon.

(edit: the above is kinda directed at leader pcs too.)

I like the idea of mini-plots and things to make the world feel alive on a general week-to-week basis. Even if it's just things you hear on the rumor boards. Little things that change the world in a noticeable way would be nice, too. The sandstorm thing someone mentioned, for example.

And while I'm not really good at coming up with examples, I think occasional events that actually involve PCs in some way would create considerable interest. They don't necessarily have to be things that PCs can shape and influence, but being actually involved in things even if you aren't a mover-shaker PC would go a long way to keeping interest alive.

I think the player retention issue extends beyond new players. I struggle to play lately because there's so many other games grabbing my attention while I simply keep Armageddon connected in case something interesting happens. I'm not the kind of player who can start plots and make things happen. I'm more of a follower than a leader. But I still want to enjoy the game somehow.

LauraMars for president.  +1

Quote from: Erythil on October 27, 2015, 04:48:55 PM

QuoteIt feels like Armageddon is incredibly stingy when it comes with rewarding PCs.

This is probably an overreaction to the constant accusations of staff favoritism in certain quarters, and the past reality of blatant staff favoritism and avatarism as represented by the fabled Floating Castle Guy.

Not sure where that quote is from, but that brings up another topic entirely: positivity!

Nobody wants to perceive (much less for there to be) favoritism.  I think the history of bitching out there has shown that much.  But staff can 'reward' in a very broad sense in a variety of other ways, ways that encourage people to stick to it, roleplay, and get things going.

1. Use encouraging language.  Staff has to say 'no', a lot, but they can do so in a positive way.  Try to suggest other ways to get what they want done that might fit the gameworld better.  Try to find what's positive out of something, and highlight that, rather than just the negatives.

2. Be proactive/collaborative.  Try to figure out why the player is asking for what they are asking, or doing what they are doing, and get in there and nudge them and encourage them.  Staff has more knowledge than we do, so they can really use that knowledge to move our own plots along.

3. Do something positive, not just negative. Staff has to animate a lot to have the world respond in negative ways to players.  I've very rarely seen it respond in positive ways.  (I don't mean backrubs or mustache waxings, although that's fine.  But it's nice to see neutral or positive animations now and then.) Look into player bios and figure out what story they are trying to tell, and animate the world to encourage that story, in really minor ways that drive that story forward.

4. Kudos? Staff could send out kudos when they see you doing something good. I received one once a long time ago. More of that.  Kudos are amazing.  Just fucking amazing.

I'm sure this is all already happening to some extent, but those are ways of 'rewarding' players without dipping into 'favoritism'.  I think they'd also address another issue, which has been hinted at before: non-sponsored leadership burnout.  What's that?  It's this frustration you feel when you try to get stuff going on the ground level, and bump into walls, be it staff or just players dying out, not playing along.

Quote from: nauta on October 27, 2015, 05:01:44 PM
4. Kudos? Staff could send out kudos when they see you doing something good. I received one once a long time ago. More of that.  Kudos are amazing.  Just fucking amazing.

Staff kudos...  wow!  Such an easy thing to do, and could have such a positive impact.  This is one of those things that seems so obvious in hindsight, but is so rarely mentioned on the GDB...  Getting kudos from players is great, but players don't see everything staff do.  A character might seem boring and lame, but behind the scenes been freaking awesome...  Having staff give out those butt pats could go a long, long way in retention.

Btw, I agree with all three of your points (especially 3 and 4)...but #4 seems like a total slam dunk.

As pathetic I think it is that people want a reach-around from staff to let them know they're doing a good jerb playing a game, yeah, positive reinforcement is nice. It's the main reason I request account notes.

Less snarky condescension on the GDB would be nice too.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 27, 2015, 05:05:30 PM

Quote from: nauta on October 27, 2015, 05:01:44 PM
4. Kudos? Staff could send out kudos when they see you doing something good. I received one once a long time ago. More of that.  Kudos are amazing.  Just fucking amazing.

Staff kudos...  wow!  Such an easy thing to do, and could have such a positive impact.  This is one of those things that seems so obvious in hindsight, but is so rarely mentioned on the GDB...  Getting kudos from players is great, but players don't see everything staff do.  A character might seem boring and lame, but behind the scenes been freaking awesome...  Having staff give out those butt pats could go a long, long way in retention.

Btw, I agree with all three of your points (especially 3 and 4)...but #4 seems like a total slam dunk.

High five.  (I still think magickers are gross and scary.) :-)

Anyway, in the background too, kudos  would also offset those hideously negative, often contentious, negative account notes I'm sure we all have.

Quote from: Delirium on October 27, 2015, 05:16:23 PM
Less snarky condescension on the GDB would be nice too.

Oh, this reminds me, sort of.

For a long time when I started playing this game I DIDN'T KNOW THE GDB EXISTED.

I had no clue we had a forum.

Maybe we could also point players to the forum during character generation so they have somewhere to "dick around" until their app gets approved. I think there might be a small message in there somewhere about it? I can't recall. But something more prominent to make sure they know about the forums and can come here for help/questions etc might be nice.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 27, 2015, 05:13:04 PM
As pathetic I think it is that people want a reach-around from staff to let them know they're doing a good jerb playing a game, yeah, positive reinforcement is nice. It's the main reason I request account notes.

When you phrase it that way, it sounds so ugly and bad...  Honestly, it's just cool for people to appreciate your character.  Nothing really bad about it, and staff are in a position to see more than anyone else.

Quote from: Desertman on October 27, 2015, 05:19:42 PM
Maybe we could also point players to the forum during character generation so they have somewhere to "dick around" until their app gets approved. I think there might be a small message in there somewhere about it? I can't recall. But something more prominent to make sure they know about the forums and can come here for help/questions etc might be nice.

Noooo!!!!!!  Let them enjoy the game without reading our jaded, corrupted ways of thinking for a little while.  :)

Quote from: Delirium on October 27, 2015, 05:16:23 PM
Less snarky condescension on the GDB would be nice too.

My first thought on seeing this thread was "It'd be nice if we didn't have so many threads whinging about the game." I worry that it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy and overall negative atmosphere.

When was the last time we had a log posted and everyone reminisced over how cools things were? I found those threads inspiring.

Timesink deletion. Staff interaction. Make the world more mysterious by eliminating the systems rules with more staff meddling with your shit.

What made me stay was all the attention my first clan admin showed me, without me even knowing it was an admin doing it. Years later when that sort of interaction was all scaled back it blew my mind - and the game has never really been the same for me. D&D would be boring if your DM only came around to correct you if you tried to bend the rules.

I am sure you have a large pool of players who are inactive who have years of playtime logged, you could contact them directly and ask what would bring them back - they could probably add a lot of quality and help intergrate new players as well?

It is however hard to make a suggestion here that isn't work intensive or that will cancel itself out by making another person leave because of the change etc.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 27, 2015, 05:21:46 PM

Quote from: Delirium on October 27, 2015, 05:16:23 PM
Less snarky condescension on the GDB would be nice too.

My first thought on seeing this thread was "It'd be nice if we didn't have so many threads whinging about the game." I worry that it creates a self-fulfilling prophecy and overall negative atmosphere.

When was the last time we had a log posted and everyone reminisced over how cools things were? I found those threads inspiring.

Made one.

For actual in-game improvements, I agree with Laura that the game world should have an on-going plot... BUT! For new players, the focus should really be on getting them engaged with other players. They don't need to know about that big Metaplot as long as there are job offerings and plothooks for them to immediately get latched on to. They can be small, too, since these are new players. We might yawn at another sewer RPT, but a newbie probably isn't.

This engagement shouldn't be coming primarily from staff. It should be coming from leadership roles. Get newbies in to your clan, give them something to do, get them involved. The leader's job will be made easier if they're presented with a metaplot to "Hang their plots on", which in turn trickles down newbies and non-sponsored roles having jobs and plots of their own.

A less static gameworld inspires and motivates leaders. Inspired and motivated leaders engage fellow players.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 27, 2015, 05:26:42 PM
For actual in-game improvements, I agree with Laura that the game world should have an on-going plot... BUT! For new players, the focus should really be on getting them engaged with other players. They don't need to know about that big Metaplot as long as there are job offerings and plothooks for them to immediately get latched on to. They can be small, too, since these are new players. We might yawn at another sewer RPT, but a newbie probably isn't.

This engagement shouldn't be coming primarily from staff. It should be coming from leadership roles. Get newbies in to your clan, give them something to do, get them involved. The leader's job will be made easier if they're presented with a metaplot to "Hang their plots on", which in turn trickles down newbies and non-sponsored roles having jobs and plots of their own.

A less static gameworld inspires and motivates leaders. Inspired and motivated leaders engage fellow players.

Solid +1 on that.  Energetic and happy leaders are a huge factor in keeping players around.

Two other smaller things, one brought up before, but I'll pitch it differently (and they are kind of related, maybe):

Find out IC is a double-edged sword.  We want to protect the mystery, both coded and lore, and that's a fun part of the game.  (The coded mystery for me isn't really that fun, but I lean more towards the MUSH than the MUD, I guess, although I've never played a MUSH, so...)  But sometimes it is jarring and immersion breaking.  The helper chat has been so useful here, but I think we could maybe have a look at some things (maybe a whole thread dedicated to it) that fall into the category of "my PC is not an idiot, I would know how to do that!"

Bugs.  This is probably just me, but I heard someone else bring it up: it'd be nice to get a notification on bug reports, when fixed or declined. I've sometimes received staff notifications or whatever IG after filing a bug, letting me know it isn't a bug.  That's nice, but spotty.

Oh, and I agree: I think a big part of retaining new players is retaining other players who are interested, excited, and enthusiastic about getting things going.  Which is why I think positivity is a big deal.  (Personal theory: a lot of people leave because they see so many NOs on so many levels, and not enough YESes, or No, but what about this...es.)

Quote from: Erythil on October 27, 2015, 04:26:38 PM
The kind of objective you described with the raider leader doesn't necessarily require a big admin RPT.  You could just drop a fortified 3-room encampment in the game, and have a trophy item on the leader that can be acquired for turn-in.  I know it might seem a little more like an MMO's 'quests,' but it's also something I'd like to see more of in the world -- more tools for us to go out and make our own fun.  Military clans in particular often stagnate because there's not really a lot of opportunities for them to actually go out and do military operations.  The warcraft/fort system that SoI has is probably too complex for Arm's engine as it stands, but I'd love to see neutral villages and forts that have to be captured or guarded every so often.

See, I hated SoI's fort system, it was too disconnected int he sense of RP and was only there for the hack and slash players.  I was on staff for SoI when that system was around.  On the topic of adding a fort and adding NPCs and items, and leaving it there to be killed.  That to me is not in the spirit of Armageddon.  There is no RP there, that is hack and slash with a reward.  Now let me tell you what goes into what you're requesting here.  First, we have to come up with a Plot Proposal, this has to describe the plot, and give the goals, etc of the plot, to then get feedback and approval.  Next we have to build the rooms, get those approved, next we have to build the reward object, get that approved, then build the NPCs, and get that approve.  I could likely skimp a bit on the NPCs and use some generic raiders, but the Leader would need to be good.  Now, I could just plop this in and let them get killed, because the PCs will figure out how to kill them, but where is that fun for all that work?  Next we have to hook some players into going into this RPT, then plan for the RPT, and then execute the RPT.  Which likely will be 10 players or more showing up to kill a bunch of raiders and then the leader.  Very little RP.  I hope you see the issue here.

Quote from: Desertman on October 27, 2015, 04:29:17 PM
+1 for small time random and generally pointless happenings.

There doesn't NEED to be a reason for six gith in a "raiding party" to show up and start camping the Salt Road other than "This gith has decided he wants to do this.", that is where the story can end and it will still give people something to do.

There doesn't NEED to be a reason that a "flock" of eight silt-fliers has been reported to be swooping down in a group and terrorizing the mining fields west of Allanak. They just roamed up and there they are to get destroyed or do some destroying of their own...and the story ends there.

There doesn't NEED to be a reason "Gulgak the rinth dwarf was just spotted killing someone in the street and now he's on the loose for the AOD to chase down.". He may even intentionally put himself in harms way (staff decision, obviously Gulgak wouldn't know he was doing it, he would think he was being cunning or whatever) so the AOD can get their hands on him....and the storyline ends there.  

This is called animations, we already do it.  Maybe we need to do it more.  My issue here is when you animate, you run a risk of killing the player or all the players involved.  Making a fair fight on the fly is extremely hard to do when you animate.  I would be more than happy to animate more, I will try, but when you guys die due to animations, don't start crying that staff killed you on purpose.  Because I'll be honest, I don't like stupid killing, but if it is realistic, tasty tasty brains.  As for the dwarf idea, that could happen, but that requires a bit of prep work, sorta described above.  One thing I thought of is having each staff member try to come up with a few NPCs for their area that they can just animate.  Maybe this dwarf doesn't get killed, but he does pay up his bribe each time... stupid Gulgak causing trouble again, oh well.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 27, 2015, 04:43:56 PM
Some more random examples of "low budget" encounter style events, that don't necessarily involve combat...mainly because I think the combat RPT's probably see the most attention now and days:

• An incredibly harsh sandstorm hits, and staff go around animating the world to show just how devastating it can be.  Kill off mounts, periodic HP damage to those who don't take cover, etc.
• Drop a single tiny nugget of silver in a random spot, watch the excitement and plots that come from it.
• A Red Robe of the Trade Ministry decides to make a spot inspection of the Kadian compound.  You have 1 IC day to prepare for their arrival....GO!
• A shipment of spice is lost in a sandstorm, and House Kurac tells the PC Fist unit to go ride out and find it before it's stolen. (Oh, and by the way, the same rumor is dropped to numerous other groups...just for a little competition.

I'm a big fan of some rewards, trophies, perks being available too for a successful outing.  It feels like Armageddon is incredibly stingy when it comes with rewarding PCs.

I wish it was this easy... item 1- That's possible, but that would require prep work, but pretty plausible.  I could damage the entire city of Allanak if I wanted to, but you mentioned if they don't take cover.  Hmmm, now that makes it more difficult, code doesn't let me determine either or.  I would have to walk around ALL of Allanak to watch for people not in doors, this would likely require several staff members to do this.  item 2 - None of you would ever freaken find it if I just dropped it somewhere.  I would sit looking at it for days, someone will likely find it, probably a newb wandering, it will go into a pack, and we'll never see it again.  I know, buzzkill, but I'm not trying to be one.  Oh, now if I hinted at it on the boards, well -everyone- would be out there, we're talking RPTs of 20+.  Though we do have some ideas brewing along these lines, but a bit more different.  item 3 - See, this would require two teams to coordinate and agree on doing it.  I could see this as being an easier to obtain one though.  Item 4 - Hmmm, could do this... not a bad idea.  Object hunt, maybe the NPCs are all dead or don't need animation or something.  *taps finger to lips*

Too many replies for me to get to all of them, but here is at least some replies to you guys.  I'll keep reading and seeing what I can come up with.

On the surface of what Ath is saying, it sounds like to do anything takes so much "authorization" that likely comes from The Big Three that any ideas are going to require RL months of background prep for what might amount to "you staff suck railroad plots I'm going back to Harshlands etc etc etc". Which I get, because why would staff want to put in months of effort for what might likely fizzle out into nothing?

And while I would LOVE to see more "railroad" plots with only 1 of 2 outcomes, I would rather see more of what was mentioned about an "overaching plot". I know there is one (THERE IS!) but nobody would ever know about it.

What if Arm had literal "seasons" like TV, where each "Season" was plotted out to be an overarching plot, with a couple subplots but the general goal has only a couple endings. Bad guy loses, good guys gain fame... or Bad Guy wins, resources are harder to get for a while and Deus Ex Tektolnes comes into play. I don't know. It might be better to advertise "Next season in Armageddon: Sam the Defiler is back, and he wants butts!"

While bureaucratic approval has something to do with it, I think a lot of us grossly underestimate how much actual command-entering in-game work it takes to get something done staffside.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 27, 2015, 05:55:24 PM
While bureaucratic approval has something to do with it, I think a lot of us grossly underestimate how much actual command-entering in-game work it takes to get something done staffside.

This.  Approvals are in place for a reason, so that fairness stays in tact and it is is realistic to the game world and vision.  It isn't as bad as Riev makes it out to be to be honest, but it does take work.

I'd target the maximum amount of fun, for minimum amount of work.

For instance, in the gith encampment example...  Why create a bunch of rooms and boss man Gith NPCS?  Just load up some gith, give them orange bandanas to signify they're part of the dreaded orange bandana crew...and spawn a tent with some random stuff raider's might steal from virtual merchants.  Then go out, have some dinner, watch a movie, come back and see if anyone has raided your encampment.  You don't even need to animate anything...although it would be cool and add flavor, just having the encampment itself does that.

If no one finds the encampment, or if you want to try and encourage players to find it while you're available to animate, have an NPC wander in and mention something to hint at it.  Local taverns are great for this....or just make a rumor board post, without any NPC wandering in at all if you're short on time.

If players manage to kill themselves fighting the gith...welp, welcome to Armageddon, you didn't have to ride out there and fuck with them.  This is especially true if you go the dinner and a movie route, where you aren't even giving the Gith some kind of special control to make them more dangerous.

As for my silver nugget example...doh...don't just drop it into a truly random room!  Take all the random players online at a given time (lets say 50), drop their names into excel, and ask Siri on your iphone "Random number between 1 and 50".  Whatever number Siri says, follow that player around for a little while and look for an opportunity to drop the nugget in their path.  No favoritism, just random good luck (or horrible, horrible luck...if you consider what many people will be willing to do for even a tiny nugget of silver).  Granted it might be more complicated than this...silver nuggets shouldn't be lying around the streets of Allanak for instance...  But you get the idea.  Maybe you have a table of "city rare valuables" and a table of "outdoors rare valuables" and you draw from that once every few months, depending on who "wins".  I cannot stress enough how "winning" has the potential to go horribly, horribly bad for some of these characters...  heh

Gith camps already exist in the game. It's on player leaders to draft up a warband and try and take them out.

Desertman mentions a Byn plot a year or so ago that was involving killing raiders and I just wanted to chime in on that, from staff perspective.

I agree it was a super neat plot and I got to be one of the major people (there were several of us) pulling the levers behind the scenes to make it come to life.

But I will just say that while this wasn't a big plot that changed the world, it still took a ton of work from our side to get done.  We wrote up about five new rooms for the game, a new camp object, some neat reward objects, and about 10 NPCs - all of whom had backgrounds, personalities, and so on.  Since this was a combat-heavy RPT, then we had to assign skills to all of them and try (emphasis on TRY) to make them challenging but not super overkill deadly for a big group of battle-hardened PCs, where we didn't know how many exactly would be showing up.

(Incidentally this is nearly impossible to do with any degree of accuracy, up-front.)

Doing plots like that now and then is awesome and I dare say that we as staff enjoy them as much as the players do, but it's also a boatload of work and takes the efforts of multiple staffers over the course of a couple weeks (at minimum) to get set up, not to mention the brainstorming up front.

In this case the camp got burned down or destroyed and all but one or two of the NPCs are dead as a result of the RPT, so it's a lot of investment for a one-time thing.   :)

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 27, 2015, 06:20:11 PM
Gith camps already exist in the game. It's on player leaders to draft up a warband and try and take them out.

They exist, but they aren't threatening the norm.  They aren't really "raider camps" if they're in the same place, and there's a viable route to take to avoid them.

Move one of the camps, or create a makeshift one in a different spot, and you've created something players might respond to...  and if they don't, okay, no worries...  if anything the world is just fresher as a result of this.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 27, 2015, 06:23:35 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 27, 2015, 06:20:11 PM
Gith camps already exist in the game. It's on player leaders to draft up a warband and try and take them out.

They exist, but they aren't threatening the norm.  They aren't really "raider camps" if they're in the same place, and there's a viable route to take to avoid them.

Move one of the camps, or create a makeshift one in a different spot, and you've created something players might respond to...  and if they don't, okay, no worries...  if anything the world is just fresher as a result of this.

They're as threatening as you RP them to be. If a PC Templar recruits your character to fight a war against the gith, that you spend a few RL weeks training and interacting with your fellow soldier PCs before, and then when the big day comes and you ride to battle, are you going to tell the Templar "Hey man, this camp has ALWAYS been here, what gives? This isn't what I signed up for!"

It would be nice if gith camps rotated like other tribal camps, but there is nothing stopping us from roleplaying with them as they are now.

Players need to exercise a little more imagination and creativity on their part and stop asking Staff to bend over backwards for them.

Sometimes we try to throw leaders (and other PCs) plot threads to pick up on and they just don't.

Sometimes they will, and we'll get a dozen requests saying "what do we do next?"

And then we reply with the equivalent of "well, what do you do next?" because we don't want to railroad PCs, and we never hear about it again.

Quote from: Mordiggian on October 27, 2015, 06:31:18 PM
Sometimes we try to throw leaders (and other PCs) plot threads to pick up on and they just don't.

Sometimes they will, and we'll get a dozen requests saying "what do we do next?"

And then we reply with the equivalent of "well, what do you do next?" because we don't want to railroad PCs, and we never hear about it again.

I'm not sure how it would work, but a feedback system might be nice.  In any case, did you follow up with them on it?  Did you try to figure out why they had dropped it?  Was it because they thought it wasn't interesting enough, or because they had other IC reasons to not pursue the plot hint?

EDITED TO ADD: I didn't mean that to sound harsh -- I meant it to be more of what the 'feedback' device would give answers to.

See, the issue here we don't want to just give away plot details to the player OOC.  We want the players run with a hook and go with it, but just like in D&D, the DM may have a great plot hook, but the players won't catch it or go with it.  The issue with Arm and plot hooks is if the players don't catch the plot hook, the plot can fizzle and the effort can be wasted.  Now, on this note, most plots that are being run now have consequence or action taken if the plot is left to it's own devise.

Quote from: Mordiggian on October 27, 2015, 06:31:18 PM
Sometimes we try to throw leaders (and other PCs) plot threads to pick up on and they just don't.

Sometimes they will, and we'll get a dozen requests saying "what do we do next?"

And then we reply with the equivalent of "well, what do you do next?" because we don't want to railroad PCs, and we never hear about it again.

That's how it goes, though.  That's a sign of the system working as it should.  I mean, you still have to get Pa a Father's Day card every year, even if it's not his thing.   You still need to poke the players now and then, even if their response is lackluster.  

I think staff misunderstand sometimes when they're in the zone.

Edit: spelling

I kept accidentally killing plot-hook staff animation NPCs, and then when I got to sit down with one she turned down my offer to fite and ran away.

y u no giv me plotz staff

Sounds like a pretty good plot to me.

Player retention means different things depending on the type of player you are hoping to retain.

To retain brand new first time players I would suggest these things:

- Make char gen for first timers much easier, perhaps even automated.
  For these types of PCs you could allow them to start without a ldesc. They would have to come up with one within say 5 days. If they do not, then they can no longer log in. Get them in the door and playing asap.

- Expand the start areas (near the starter shops) to include some tutorial rooms.

- Set up a newbie chat channel. I know this is kind of anathema, but I think it would really help new players avoid quitting in frustration. Have helpers from the player base who could supervise it.

- Animate for them. Arm is the most realistic MUD I know of, so capitalize on this. Make the world come alive and it will hook the newbs into logging on again.


Now, how to hold onto those newbs that have logged in a few times, yet might be getting bored with the slow pace of skilling up, and the super steep learning curve that we all had to face.

-Keep that newbie chat option open to them for a little longer.

-Make sure there are ample and relatively -easy- opportunities to get a job! If you want to retain players, then let them work.  I remember when I started, I used the helper chat on the web page. I asked "How do I survive" the response was  "Get a job". I said "Well how do I stay alive when I am trying to find one?"  "Look for food outside the walls" was the response.  

Not only were these responses very Spartan, they did not really tell me -how- to go about doing either of these things. So make a certain set of jobs very easy to get and quite obviously available, so that I can answer the questions for myself.

For the folks beyond the fresh newb category, I think some of the suggestions I have been reading about above are spot on:
- More action and interaction, rpts.
-More plots that we can get involved in easily.
-Acknowledge good play in this category of players.  Staff should -initiate- communication in this sense. Send an email to say to Suzy Salter "Hey! I see you have really improved!  Great job!  If you need anything let me know!"  Wow...that would like  totally inspire a deeper commitment to the game.

And for the vets?  
This is quite important.  Loosing a two day player is not good, yet loosing a five year plus player is very bad. Those make the backbone of the game.
-Help us avoid burnout, keep it fresh and active.
-SHOW THAT YOU TRUST THEM.
- Open up more sponsored roles, or send some plot ideas our way and let us work with staff on them.
-Do not be so stingy with karma. I mean really.
-Allow them a greater role in making long lasting changes to the game world.
-Acknowledge them somehow. A perk. Maybe an extra CGP or two.
Let them store and unstore PCs. If they get bored they could store, and then come back to it a year or so later.


Honestly, there is not another MUD around that even comes close to ARM. I also think that in the four or five years (I think) I have been playing, staff have done an amazing job of making things better and easier. I hope we can do even better in the next five years.

Cheers

Quote from: Ath on October 27, 2015, 05:45:37 PM

This is called animations, we already do it.  Maybe we need to do it more.  My issue here is when you animate, you run a risk of killing the player or all the players involved.  Making a fair fight on the fly is extremely hard to do when you animate.  I would be more than happy to animate more, I will try, but when you guys die due to animations, don't start crying that staff killed you on purpose.  Because I'll be honest, I don't like stupid killing, but if it is realistic, tasty tasty brains.  As for the dwarf idea, that could happen, but that requires a bit of prep work, sorta described above.  One thing I thought of is having each staff member try to come up with a few NPCs for their area that they can just animate.  Maybe this dwarf doesn't get killed, but he does pay up his bribe each time... stupid Gulgak causing trouble again, oh well.

In my experience 19/20 of these happen "as an aside" to something else the players are already doing which may be why you get this sort of backlash at times.

Most of the time it isn't..."Hey there's a rumor that this gith tribe is here camping the Salt Road, maybe you want to go check that out!".

Most of the time it is...."You guys are going to gather pech gras...SURPRISE GITH TRIBE ATTACK!!!".

I'm not saying those aren't super freaking fun. They are super freaking fun. What I'm saying is making the fighting the "GOAL" so that when people go they KNOW the fight is the goal, and not the surprise in transit to the goal or the task stopping them from the goal might reduce the idea that "staff killed me" is realistic.

How do you blame staff for a gith tribe killing you when you KNOW you are on your way to fight said gith tribe?

It's a bit easier when that gith tribe randomly shows up unexpectedly while you are trying to harvest agate shards instead.

Both scenarios can be fun, but if the fear is you will get blamed for killing PC's when that isn't your intention, you might lean towards "full disclosure" events, so to speak.  

Recurring events are good for getting people to pop in.  It's my understanding that we already have code that lets you spectate the arena no matter where you are in the world... so why not have regular but simple arena events?

For staff, there'd be the initial outlay of defining a number of humanoid NPCs with s/descriptions (maybe even solicited from players) and skills/stats. Then they could just be loaded into the arena to battle each other 1V1, 2V1, etc. using existing aggro code.  PCs could watch to determine which NPCs are the stronger ones, which would facilitate actual gambling.

More gamblin'!

Quote from: Refugee on October 27, 2015, 02:57:44 PM
1.  Find ways to make clan recruits less likely to end up alone and bored, trapped by a schedule.  New players benefit from being in a clan when it works right; they have someone to show them the ropes and are somewhat shielded from the harsh realities of the struggle for survival in our game.

2.  Clans could have reciprocal agreements, where their members could train or hunt or whatever with each other, in times of lean numbers.  This really helped me in the times it's been available.  It'd have to be worked out in a way to make sense, of course, but idling in a clan hall doesn't compete well with other games that you could be playing instead, and when you're new, you might not know what else to do on your own.  Anyway, anything we can do to make clans better for new players would be great.

3.  Our GDB treatment of each other should always be respectful, even during times of heated disagreement.  We are a small and dwindling group of enthusiasts and we should value each other even if our PCs don't.  We are all at least fairly able to express ourselves, given the platform of the game we've chosen, and most of us are adults.  We should be able to debate anything without insulting or abusing each other.  When you see people sniping at each other on the boards, many might not choose to try to be part of that community.  And we -need- each other, because there's not too many people who 'get' us.

4.  Is there still a limit on the size of the Byn?  I'd suggest removing that, if not the limits on all clans, especially newbie-friendly ones.  If you've got a popular leader who draws in players because they're having fun, that's a good thing.

the bolded one especially - i've made it very obvious its been my first year of play so far, or close to it., it wasn't much of a problem to me as Arm wasn't my first RP game, but many newbies to RP are also seen first trying RP on muds ,or not even realizing the game -is- RP. I've had a character in the byn, when it was at a low period of activity - having to follow the schedule during this time is just awful. I mean its part of the RP, but no one wants to sit there rping chopping vegetables for ten minutes to help with stew. (i mean ,if its with others, it can be fun, given the content of the RP).

my first character had a lot of  :o :o :o moments that had me hooked, and I think this is the most important part for player retention - sure, there was down time, but its like reading a good book - theres a hook to the game that keeps people interested.

I've noticed in long time of RPing that most rpers online (from byond ,ect, other commuinites), especially when they're new to a game, or new to rping in general, they're 'reactionary' Rpers - they wait for something to happen, they either don't know enough to make something happen , or they are a bit intimidated to try and make something happen. If nothing happens, they wind up bored, then either stop logging in, or quit outright. So its not only important to make sure they're not sitting their twiddling their thumbs. A big part of what kept me hooked was lots of action and things going on that lead to me learning cool things one after another, both my PC and my self OOCly learned tons of neat things. I personally think its important to get a player interested in the world at large. Let them see tidbits of the lore , bring out their curoisity. This will lead to them not only being interested, but some will start being less reactionary and more get-going.. Starting things, trying things - even if they fail. That said. When I DM a RP, I follow a  large ideal of Risk vs reward. High Risk scenarios should carry an equally great reward that everyone involved could be a part of in some sort of way. I do not know if this could count in armageddon - but I honestly believe that when characters start something, Risk a lot. possibly evne their lives, reputation.. ect.  The reward should be fitting the risk. Theres many times where i've seen people quit a roleplay because they felt their effort after taking huge risk to their character only to be given a pat on a back and a 'good job!'

We also got to remember - Games are meant to be fun, its that fun factor that keeps them in , and yes, there will -always- be down times. But its punishing to make those down times have to be chopping up vegetables or cleaning shit.


One thought might be to allow newbie players to create a character thats already a new runner of the byn, but that might be too much.

Underlined part, I agree with as well - while it'd be bad to let something Swell TOO much, if a clan is growing big. Say for example house borsail gains not just aides, but starts having wyvern PCs build up. This is going to be noticed. Other noble houses might be interested in knocking them down a few notches. This alone would create possible conflict - the only issue I see is that its hard to populate many clans with that many players with our current playerbase, but in simple terms - without hiring caps, an influential noble house would actually be the -target- of their rivals. That to me  I think would make things fun.

Quote from: Norcal on October 27, 2015, 07:46:07 PM

- Animate for them. Arm is the most realistic MUD I know of, so capitalize on this. Make the world come alive and it will hook the newbs into logging on again.
Now, how to hold onto those newbs that have logged in a few times, yet might be getting bored with the slow pace of skilling up, and the super steep learning curve that we all had to face.

This brings up the thought of possibly having a set of staffer, much like the builders focused on building, focused on animating and bringing the world to life on improvised situations - storytellers could then be allowed to focus on players working out the bigger plots and such. I don't know if 'it'd work out, but on other roleplays i played, some of them had an admin postion like this to be able to bring the world to life on the fly, and were constantly watching for situations for world reaction, they had an ability to see the posts of anyone emoting, ect, no matter where they were (And the ability to mute the RP of certain players to keep things like mudsex hidden). They could then target a specific character, then use a command to make a narration/echo in the local area of that character to show, or even spawning  an NPC character or taking control of one in the surrounding rooms to then RP.

its a long shot, but its an idea. I doubt it'd work anything like how I explained it. But it really worked at keeping the world alive.

Just give the players what they want. If we ask for the return of Tuluk, give it to us. If we ask for the return of X or Y playable race, add it back in. Re-introduce full sorcerers for the highest karma special apps only. If people want certain features/bugs repaired, address them. Show that you're dedicated to keeping players happy and they'll stick around. Cater less to the wishes and desires of staff and players who are very tight with staff and consider the viewpoints and ideas of the larger majority of players that have been traditionally disregarded or ignored. If you want more players, make more people happy rather than a few people happier. Take a more relaxed attitude towards running a game which should be a casual experience. Free the storytellers to interact regularly with players. Encourage plots among players to the fullest and let our own PVPing/competition sort it out. Take a relaxed attitude towards OOC communication and facilitate it officially on the GDB.

Pick your favorite among the above suggestions and implement them one at a time, staging them, and assessing the positive or negative impacts of each. Don't, on the other hand, do all of the above at once, for then you wouldn't know which ones were the right move.

But I think in general reversing the trend of staff decisions over the past year or two would do well to reverse the downtrending player counts.

Look back in time and observe the activities and events surrounding upward spikes in playercounts and recreate those moments.

Quote from: Ath on October 27, 2015, 05:45:37 PM
See, I hated SoI's fort system, it was too disconnected int he sense of RP and was only there for the hack and slash players.  I was on staff for SoI when that system was around.  On the topic of adding a fort and adding NPCs and items, and leaving it there to be killed.  That to me is not in the spirit of Armageddon.  There is no RP there, that is hack and slash with a reward.  

Wow, I disagree. I played a Batallion armsman/sergeant during the mini-fort wars and there was a great deal of RP around them.  It was loads of fun.  There was a lot of problems with the dang things, it's true, and they started being codedly abused, but for a long time it really gave us a lot of fun that people still bring up when we reminisce, years later.

Quote from: Nyr on October 27, 2015, 02:29:51 PM
This is a thread for some brainstorming on player retention.

There are several things we can do to bring in new players, period, and the biggest one is voting (obligatory "get out the vote" msg!).  However, after they get here, we want to find ways to get more of them to stay.

What suggestions do you have for player retention?

Can you give us more information on when, where, and how we're losing new players?  I know it's going to vary from person to person, but are there any trends?

Quote from: nauta on October 27, 2015, 05:43:58 PM
Find out IC is a double-edged sword.  We want to protect the mystery, both coded and lore, and that's a fun part of the game.  (The coded mystery for me isn't really that fun, but I lean more towards the MUSH than the MUD, I guess, although I've never played a MUSH, so...)  But sometimes it is jarring and immersion breaking.  The helper chat has been so useful here, but I think we could maybe have a look at some things (maybe a whole thread dedicated to it) that fall into the category of "my PC is not an idiot, I would know how to do that!"

One example of this is the crafting recipes, I think.  Some people play games like these specifically TO craft stuff.  But our craft helpfiles contain these vague (sometimes very vague) starter recipes -- it might be more newbie friendly if they were more comprehensive.  IMO it's not spoiling anyone to tell them which specific hunk of bone their knifemaker can craft into a dagger.

Here's my random thoughts and ideas on recruiting and retaining players:

Recruiting:

1.  Update the MotD regularly.  When I used to check out MUDs, the first thing I wanted to know was, "Is this game actively maintained?"  If the MotD hadn't been updated in two years, I logged off and didn't go back.

2.  Consider advertising somewhere other than the MUD connector.  Don't spam, but I wonder if a well-placed post on reddit subs like MUD, darksun, rpg, or dnd might not garner more quality attention.  I'm sure there are other sites out there that cater to role-players, writers, Dune fans, and so on.

3.  Post some fanfic or even tightly edited logs on some fiction sites.

Retaining:

1.  Go after the veterans that have stopped playing.  I don't mean email them.  Make the game appealing to them.  They're out there, reading the GDB, waiting.

2.  Seriously look into ways of making the game available to players who can't dedicate 20 hours per week to it.

3.  Recognize how dedicated your playerbase is, and utilize that.  Give me building tools (even just a properly formatted XML front) and a fair audience, and I'll build you some brand spanking new zones.  I'm not the only one who would do this.

4.  I love, love, love, love, love, love, love the idea of new major characters.  We have a whole universe to explore, and Tektolnes and Utep are the only timeless characters?

5.  Let people multi-play in a limited fashion.  Let players animate the world via one-off characters.  At 2 karma, you can log in as a gortok or a scrab.  At 4 karma, a gith or a kryl.  At 6 karma, you get a deaf and dumb ghost that can possess the NPC of your choice.

I like OK's ideas.

Just my view...

I'm not a great builder, but I'd say I'm decent, and writing descriptions for a camp and a few NPC's (not all of the 10 raiders should/need to be unique), I don't find it very hard at all, so for high quality builders it should be a walk in the park, which is what I'd expect on ARM. I've been a builder on a similar mud as well, so the commands aren't that in depth. You don't even need to animate as someone else said. Just plop it somewhere a little different, and let players discover it. Have some new gith band operating from it, and just load some booty. Someone said you can just do that anyway with what's in the world,  but there will be no interesting booty in those camps I bet unless staff get involved, and they have been in the same old place for how many rl years? They also shouldn't be so easy to defeat, sometimes. There needs to be big bads in the world that people should know not to mess with, unless its very well organised. It's going to take some time to build these small camps, plot ideas, but so does logging in and sparring and doing a patrol equally take time for a player. Why is it that it seems people cringe at the thought of having to do the work. Some players put in hours of time to the game to help foster plots and the like, why should they expect any less from staff to put the same amount of time and work for plots. If people are cringing at the thought of the work to provide for players, then I think the wrong people are being chosen for staff. Becoming a storyteller is telling stories IMO, acting as a DM, or it should be, and even the lowest level shouldn't have so much red tape. This red tape is the biggest problem. Instead of the administrators or producers having to approve every little idea, free their time up and only have them step in when things get out of hand? More small stories, more things to talk about, more players interested, more players logging in so they don't miss anything. That's a huge incentive for me, like not wanting to miss a cool battle so that my character might become a hero from it, or finding some ancient artifacts in a lost temple somewhere.

The veterans no longer playing. Why not? Look at the sudden return when Tuluk was closed, but what happened to them? Those numbers are gone and we seem to have less players. What actually changed in Allanak or the world to keep them interested apart from just having more players in one area? That's great, but more was needed. Bring back the actual fun roles in the clans, the elite people. Something to aspire too, and also they have all the unique gear mostly and lots of people enjoy showing that off and feeling special. Hmm. Would it be better to close the hunting branches of the GMH, and just let them trade their monopoly, but actually have separate PC hunting clans supply them instead? It would be much more interesting to have joe fight against amos in the wilds cause they are in competition for the scrab than it would be for kadian hunter guy vs salarr hunter guy for the fact that everyone will make a big deal out of kadius going against salarr. Just from experience it's very tip toe when it's GMH vs GMH when if its two independents not as many people would give a damn, which would allow for more conflict to happen? This could also open up the GMH to be more general in what they sell and maybe not even hold such a strong monopoly over certain areas, so there's more sales competition, sabotage, etc.

A RL friend of mine was a staffer on a Starwars Mush long ago and I always enjoyed hearing him tell me about their ideas for story arcs. These would be set out for like a seasonal period, or half yearly.  Just like Riev said, Next season in Armageddon: Sam the Defiler is back, and he wants butts!" This sort of thing is a great idea, and will let people know staff have a vision and make an effort to keep things interesting. I also really like when staff are open about upcoming projects and what new features are being worked on and added. Keep those up to date, as it keeps me interested at least. I know there is a trust level problem with letting just any coder do some work, but what if the CGP system could get implemented if a professional coded could be paid to do the work? I'm sure we could get more paypal donations to see more coding projects completed. Less time staff have to worry about stuff which isn't animating, or creating plots the better.

The new extended sub guilds I thought was an excellent addition. Adding a new one every 3 months with the story arc idea might be a neat. It's just like WOW then, get a new class, or race, every expansion. Imagine getting a full new class as well! Do the current classes need an overhaul or change? That's another idea to spice things up. Maybe one arc is 'The Highlord's Games' - Introduces a new class called Gladiator, and this PC starts out as an escaped slave, branded of course, and they need to hide as long as possible from the outside world until the Wyverns find them, or hear about them. Then when caught, they are thrown into the arena to fight and die, or live if they are good enough. How cool would it be as nobles to sponsor gladiators to fight and win you fame and riches from gambling and prizes etc. Make the new gladiator class a 3 karma role to limit it being overused or add it to the special role condition of 3 a year? It could still be spec apped from a person with 0 karma, but I'd also let this slave start with a couple free boosts to weapon skills to give them a little extra survivability and to factor it being worth 3 karma for.

More history recorded, allow it to be legal for at least family GMH and mid-level/senior members to learn reading/writing that isn't just cavilish. Secrets, maps to treasures, character histories and the like it would be great to see more of them kept IG, than just posted on the GDB a RL year later to read about. There's another extended subguild to add, Scribe. I've really enjoyed the RP around reading journals and telling a certain PC stories from old journals. This sort of thing should happen a lot more. This falls strongly on the players who would be in these roles to write more, but staff just need to give the green light about it and approve it in the senate, or even turn it into a plot PC's can somehow get involved in. Maybe all GMH just need to do something to convince one noble voter or faction or whatever to change their mind (I don't know much about how senate meetings actually work).

Making the world seem alive and time is passing actually helps to keep things fresh and not stale. Replacing certain NPC's in the game world (I know one family noble house NPC list WAY out-dated). Muk and Tek bore me, I don't know about everyone else? If they are content to just sit around and do nothing, which works great for them, but it makes for a boring story. What are the Kryl doing, just playing halfling in the forest now? I can't see aliens just sitting around can anyone else? ;) What about a gith warlord to rally other tribes into one big army? An elf who declares himself kill off all other elves and decides to take over Luirs?

Lastly... bring back Tuluk, but what needs to change? Make a thread about it and get ideas and suggestions. Make Tuluk smaller? Get rid of the shadow artist system? Make everyone not so covert with everything they do? Bring back undertuluk, or make changes to the warrens to allow for a more interesting criminal life. Not be so anti-blood in a fighting arena, and let people fight and die etc., as well as have Descending Sun as a thing. 'Create an enemy to the east that isn't just Kryl. Bring back the Qynars and Striasari, maybe make the north more feudal? Build more farming villages, and let PC's live in farm houses and such instead of just in apartments. Bring back the Hlum. That was deadest one of the coolest ideas Tuluk had I think. Being able to go from a commoner to a noble. That's everyone's dream, or nearly should be as a commoner.

Anyhow, that's enough nonsense from me for tonight. Sorry if I got a bit carried away and was a bit critical, but staff stepping up to ask this sort of feedback is a step in the right direction! Well done.

The problem is not that the game isn't easy enough for new players, or that not enough people find out about Armageddon. It's a safe bet that virtually everyone in the RPI community has played this game. The actual problem is a rift between staff and players which needs to be mended. Until this is acknowledged instead of swept under the rug, everything else you attempt to do is a waste of time. You need to accept that in the last handful of years, an alarming number of players have quit the game in anger or disappointment rather than from having had their fill of Armageddon. Many then take their friends with them, or contribute to a chain reaction where others quit because the numbers dip too low. This is the real problem, not the lack of a random character generator or anything like that.

Don't ignore the elephant in the room. A few things in particular have to change: Armageddon needs to become an interesting and fun game again, not one buried in stifling stagnation and constant obstacles to anything slightly outside the ordinary that one seeks to do. Certain staff members need to stop being so cruel to players they don't like, even if their reasons for disliking some players are occasionally fair enough. The trend of removing pieces of the game needs to be counterbalanced by comparable additions so that Armageddon isn't simply diminished every year like it has been in recent times. World events need to start mattering and provide meaningful changes to gameplay, like the mantis invasion of Luir's, and unlike the volcano thing or the new black moon thing.

The solutions are there, but they'll take more of a concession than to decide that all that's needed is more voting or a newsletter. There are plenty of good suggestions in this thread, but most of them have nothing to do with the reason so many players have left the game this year. I mean, it would be fantastic if being a recruit wasn't such a lonely, unsatisfying experience, except that's always been the case. People didn't suddenly quit over that. Fixing that would be great but is not the solution to the problem, which is ultimately an issue with management and a slowly widening divide between staff and playerbase.

Since we are brainstorming, don't take this as an attack merely an idea that would help in my opinion:

I would like to see a global banmesty for jaded vets and they can take it or leave it. Just a banmesty? You won't have to grovel and neither will we, cool : Yes [] no [], Tabula Rasa blank slate. Even with 0 karma they can app for ruks and vivs no problems.

You can always just ban again if they keen fucking up like Asan.

I would like to see Tuluk as an antagonist using it's (IC) packs to take prisoners back for (IC). Maybe even npcs with fancy scripting.

Honestly my experience with the game is overall extremely positive and lately even more so.

Also give Fuji +1 endurance every time he mudsexes and make him the new Sorcerer King please.

Quote from: Inks on October 28, 2015, 08:04:12 AM
Since we are brainstorming, don't take this as an attack merely an idea that would help in my opinion:

I would like to see a global banmesty for jaded vets and they can take it or leave it. Just a banmesty? You won't have to grovel and neither will we, cool : Yes [] no [], Tabula Rasa blank slate. Even with 0 karma they can app for ruks and vivs no problems.

There was a banmesty last year or whenever. It's a pretty meaningless gesture. Almost no players get banned, the numbers aren't down because a bunch of people have been banned and can no longer play. In nearly all cases, banned players are people you don't really want back. What you do want back is the players who have quit, and many of these departures were preceded by harsh confrontations with specific staff members. That's the area where those players need to feel assuaged if they are to return. They need to feel that they're going back to a game that has changed, whose proprietors will no longer treat them like dirt.

Huh. Didn't realize there was one last year. Thanks.

I have seen more animation in the last couple of months than in a year. That should help new player retention at least. If players choose to die on a scary mob you have animated assuming they could escape welcome to Arm. It took me a couple of years away to really "get" the game. So higher recruiting is important as well. But it took vets who were better rpers than me to get me really into it.

As players we should encourage interaction in meaningful ways with newbies. Even if you are an antagonist at least rp and draw out a death or robbery or betrayal if at all possible. With a lower vet count new players are being taught the game by new players which thins the blood a bit.

Hey jaded veterans. Come play in the Byn. It's like a comfy old skool slipper and helps keep the gameworld grounded, gritty and cutthroat whilst being interactive.

(Players in other clans or indies that are also helping to do this, we see you and you rule.)

Actually, the ban amnesty was at the beginning of 2013, not last year.  Fergie is right in one point there:  very few players are actually banned, and no more than 3 were banned for such reasons that we do not want them back.  Generally, all it takes is asking to return.  Some return anyway on new accounts and should be commended for doing a great job at not doing the things that got them banned on their previous accounts.

The other side of the "discontented leaving veterans story" is that unless they flipped off staff on the way out the door or dropped a rage-quit deuce on the game doorstep, staff members only hear about it after they've left.  At that point, it is second-hand, heavily edited, only half of the story, and certainly not posted in order to make amends.  In the cases where there was anything approaching a "harsh confrontation" that didn't result in an actual ban...it was a confrontation in which staff disagreed with the player, and since staff has the final word, staff wins, the player dislikes losing, the player quits, and then the player complains about the whole ordeal. 

What does that player want?

Some ideas for new player retention that look pretty doable in terms of "low effort" and "potentially higher reward":

Quote from: DesertmanYou know how on the "Loading Screens" for some games it gives you tips and hints for how to better play the game?

Newbie accounts could possibly be setup with a code that sends them and only them "Hints" randomly about how to play the game.

In the other thread I saw a couple of good ones, like better management of RPT times, and finding a way to see what areas have activity at what times.  Code-wise I'm not sure how those would work, but they are worth considering.  More random encounters is also easier to do, honestly--laid out quite well in the thread.

Higher effort but good ideas, regardless:

• keep something larger lurking in the background in terms of plot, connected to smaller plots (TV season plots)
• New major characters (the effort involved here is actually kinda high, but I can definitely see the appeal)
• more staff driven plots -- not that this is a bad idea or that we don't do this, it's just that we need a certain amount of effort on it just to keep it going, so...it takes time, but we are always wanting to do more

I'd go so far as to say this about plots:  we have to find a better equilibrium between "find out IC" and "post the details of the plot verbatim in advance."  I think that in some cases we have erred too far on the side of trying to surprise players in order to give a more fulfilling individual experience.  In the process, people know in general that "OOCly" something is going down, but maybe aren't aware of the scope of it, so they skip the RPT because there are too many other things IRL that could demand attention.  They show up on the forum the next day, everyone that showed up to the RPT is like "omg you missed it!" and the player is left thinking..."how'd I miss it, I knew there was an RPT, but how was I supposed to know how big it could be?" 

That doesn't always happen but it has happened more often than it should.  The Allanaki plot still hasn't been posted on the chronology page, I'll make it a focus to get that done this week if at all possible.  It involved all of the things players have mentioned that they'd love to see "more of" here.  Black robes fighting, red robes galore, SOME magick (but not a lot), and plenty of violence.  That was this year, in the spring/leading up to early summer, it lasted for like 3 months, and while there were some lessons learned for it in terms of management staff-side (namely...wow, long-term plots are hard to keep going)...it was fun.

I'll elaborate more in another post on what I might see as helpful in this area (RPT management/etc).

There's ideas here about removing systems that just clog things up but I don't really see any specifics about what it is that clogs things up (just like previous threads) so...maybe I'll skip past those!  ;)

Hypothetical situation:

Let's say that staff have a plot ready to go and are ready for the first phase of it.  It is expected to last for about 4-5 RPTs over the course of a month and a half, and it involves a couple of things in and around Red Storm.

Here's how that could work, if adjusting our current stuff a bit:

• Staff posts about it, either in announcements or in some kind of RPT/plot tracker for players.  No IC details are posted, merely OOC stuff, like "we have a plot ready to go.  This will be set in the Red Storm area.  We don't have exact dates lined up but it will be happening over the course of the next two months.  Please see RPT tracker thread for details on when the individual RPTs will be!"
• This gives players enough time to adjust.  If they don't have a PC, maybe they roll up a new one in this area, or they roll up one elsewhere but have a pretext (OOC) to find a reason (IC) to be there.
• Staff nudges groups that should normally be involved in this kind of thing, and give them IC reasons to be there.
• RPTs posted at least 1 week in advance to give players time to plan to be there.
• Post rumors on IC boards first.  After 2 weeks (1 RL month), if it's large enough, post on chronology page

It is hard to find a balance sometimes with how long things take. You try and do your own ideas and things take forever RL to accomplish. Meanwhile a Staff plot or sponsored character can just skip all that and it feels cheap to some (me) who put in time on stuff.

People say CGP can reduce how long it takes to get your character good. Haven't had a chance yet to see about it.

So I'd say reduce time to get players relevant. Queue the skill grind defenders.

I would like if players could affect plots from a pre-determined outcome (railroading) as well. If savvy players stop x from happening deus ex shouldn't be used to make x happen. This would be a good step in putting story and engagement back in the hands of the players. Such as a tiered choice tree you could write up in 10 mins and you only need to plan the next choice in detail. But if there is a choice and if pcs with ulterior IC motives could alter that would be pretty cool.  

Quote from: Nyr on October 28, 2015, 09:57:24 AM
Hypothetical situation:

Let's say that staff have a plot ready to go and are ready for the first phase of it.  It is expected to last for about 4-5 RPTs over the course of a month and a half, and it involves a couple of things in and around Red Storm.

Here's how that could work, if adjusting our current stuff a bit:

• Staff posts about it, either in announcements or in some kind of RPT/plot tracker for players.  No IC details are posted, merely OOC stuff, like "we have a plot ready to go.  This will be set in the Red Storm area.  We don't have exact dates lined up but it will be happening over the course of the next two months.  Please see RPT tracker thread for details on when the individual RPTs will be!"
• This gives players enough time to adjust.  If they don't have a PC, maybe they roll up a new one in this area, or they roll up one elsewhere but have a pretext (OOC) to find a reason (IC) to be there.
• Staff nudges groups that should normally be involved in this kind of thing, and give them IC reasons to be there.
• RPTs posted at least 1 week in advance to give players time to plan to be there.
• Post rumors on IC boards first.  After 2 weeks (1 RL month), if it's large enough, post on chronology page

That seems okay from a "player knowledge" viewpoint, but I would tweak it (yes I'm still referring to my own experience as a builder/storyteller-type):

• Staff introduces some minor characters (avatars) to the game world in a fairly unobtrusive way. A thief who works for the main antagonist in the plot, who is mostly a meat-shield with the steal skill (think: newbie burglar/Byn runner, the staff can have him show up right when one of the Sergeants is in the Gaj). Have the thief get caught pilfering when the player-played templar is around, as a method of getting the templar to meet this minor character, who will drop a hint before he's released/pked (whatever). So now the seed is planted. Add a couple more avatar PCs - flavor pcs who have little tidbits of information they can spread about the existence of "a thing" that might need investigating at some point
• THEN do all the rest

Quote from: Nyr on October 28, 2015, 09:45:01 AM
There's ideas here about removing systems that just clog things up but I don't really see any specifics about what it is that clogs things up (just like previous threads) so...maybe I'll skip past those!  ;)

I have no idea what ideas/posts you're referencing, but here's the one that comes to my mind:  CGP, and it's little cousin, special app requirements.

Scrap CGP.  Neat idea, but it's stuck in coding limbo.  Here's the thing:  You guys moved the bar by adding extended sub-guilds (ESGs), and now I have absolutely zero interest in playing a class/subguild character, I only want a class/ESG character with skill bumps, and I only get three of those per year.  This isn't a huge deal, but now I'm playing with the mindset that I have to be stingy with my characters because each one has to last four months.  I assume a lot of people feel this way.

Could we just add ESG's to character creation with karma restrictions?  And if so, could you make some high-karma ESG's that have all the skills people want, and not just one or two?  Give me a spy ESG that gives sneak, hide, scan, and listen, please.  Or a gladiator ESG that gives slashing weapons, parry, and shield use.

At the VERY least, look at some of the popular class/ESG combos, and make them full-fledged karma-required classes.  Warrior/outdoorsman is popular?  Make a bandit class that gets the warrior tree, plus scan, hunt, and direction sense.  Assassin/cutpurse gets a lot of love?  Make a rogue class for 3 karma.  How about a Weaponmaster class that's just the warrior tree, but with all skills bumped twice, yours for only 6 karma.

Let me save my special apps for off-the-wall zany shit that you guys have no interest in seeing in game.

ETA:  Also, ease up on the restrictions against players recruiting for roles.  One of the hardest things about leadership roles is finding your right-hand man that makes it all possible.  Let people recruit their damn friends to play at their side, and don't get upset when they plan world domination over a beer at a real bar instead of the Gaj.

Quote from: Nyr on October 28, 2015, 09:04:08 AM
The other side of the "discontented leaving veterans story" is that unless they flipped off staff on the way out the door or dropped a rage-quit deuce on the game doorstep, staff members only hear about it after they've left.  At that point, it is second-hand, heavily edited, only half of the story, and certainly not posted in order to make amends.  In the cases where there was anything approaching a "harsh confrontation" that didn't result in an actual ban...it was a confrontation in which staff disagreed with the player, and since staff has the final word, staff wins, the player dislikes losing, the player quits, and then the player complains about the whole ordeal.  

What does that player want?

I confess I didn't understand fully the paragraph above the question (if a player quits because they are disappointed, discouraged, and so on, why should they make amends?  Maybe you meant that it wasn't posted in the spirit of constructive feedback?)...  but about the question itself:

I think someone suggested it before: you might consider asking them, privately, or even publicly.  I think the question here is rhetorical, though, right?  I mean, a lot of what they want was listed in the thread itself (speaking about veteran players).  If it's not rhetorical, then you might consider looking at what was listed in the thread itself (e.g. Norcal's suggestions, which were great) or starting a new thread on the topic itself: "If you left Arm in the last two years, why did you do so?"

I agree, that we shouldn't focus our energies on banned players -- what you want to go after are the players who were exciting roleplayers, got stuff started, then just... vanished, often without a word.

Quote from: Inks on October 28, 2015, 10:15:07 AM
I would like if players could affect plots from a pre-determined outcome (railroading) as well. If savvy players stop x from happening deus ex shouldn't be used to make x happen. This would be a good step in putting story and engagement back in the hands of the players. Such as a tiered choice tree you could write up in 10 mins and you only need to plan the next choice in detail. But if there is a choice and if pcs with ulterior IC motives could alter that would be pretty cool.  

I'd like to see this. Maybe when a major plot happens, and then as more players get involved, plan out a few possible outcomes will be nice. It'll probably take a lot of work for the staff side though.

Pre-planned plots are overrated. They're nice, but it's not the key to a sustainable game. If the game is healthy, the plots will happen organically of their own accord. Armageddon has never had a particularly heavy emphasis on plot; it's a game world designed, at least in intent, to generate friction and intrigue by merit of the game's setup itself. You can run the occasional Cluedo plot if you like, but that's not the thing that makes or breaks the game. It never has been, and there never was all that much of it around. The unfortunate fact is that most plots tend to entertain a small few players at a time and leave everyone else feeling left out. You need one or two annual world events, things that everyone can react to and which might sow the foundation for new character types or fundamentally change existing ones.

I can't think of any such event since the Copper War. Before that, there were the likes of the Luir's occupation, the liberation of Tuluk, and probably the Thrain rebellion thing although that was before my time. In recent times, no event that I can name has had an actual lasting impact on the game, excepting the closure of Tuluk which has been disappointing for different reasons. Take events like the gith infestation, the volcano thing, even the most recent stuff with riots and infighting -- ultimately, these things have changed nothing on the surface level of the game. If you're not directly involved, which is the case for almost anyone besides militia, the game has remained the same. Even the deluge of Tuluk, which ostensibly changed a lot in that city, really just had cosmetic impact for anyone but the select few tasked with "rebuilding" it (which was in itself a bit of a facade task). Well, and then it closed off Under-Tuluk without adding anything comparable in return, which is another of the game's problems in recent times.

The recent HRPTs are all events which didn't create any new roles, didn't change anything about how any of the game's core roles are played, didn't leave anything tangible behind for people to work with, and are now barely mentioned in any context. Today, who is affected by the gith skirmishes? Who still cares about the black moon? If there's anyone at all, it's very few and a very minor influence. These events have been dubbed "lightshows," mildly interesting while they occur but, for most, observed from the ground without any way to participate or influence the event, and with little left behind once the fireworks are finished. Such events are fine if the rest of the game is thriving and players have other things to occupy themselves with in the day-to-day run of play, but if they don't, these lightshows feel really hollow and do little more than illuminate the stagnation that everyone suffers from.

Quote from: NyrSome ideas for new player retention that look pretty doable in terms of "low effort"

This highlights one of the major problems that have cost the game players. By RPI standards, you have an enormous gamestaff and such a well-defined game that there's no good reason why everything has to be low effort, minimal workload, quick fixes. It should be really easy to build for Armageddon, everyone's intimately familiar with the theme and the game world as it has never changed significantly. Your staff doesn't need to constantly get used to overhauls and revamps, so there should be no obstacle for high effort projects. I can't think of anything that has been added to this game in the last five years which looks like it took more than a weekend to make. Meanwhile, you've closed off myriad storied areas and clans, often in the name of reducing workload. Where do these extra resources go? Why does it feel like everything is the quick, easy solution? It's difficult not to get the impression that today's staff does as little as they can get away with, and routinely removes things that are difficult for them.

If getting back alienated veterans is what you really want, you need to address the reasons they're gone. One of those reasons is that the game no longer feels like it's in the hands of people who truly care about its well-being, or who still have the inspiration to keep it somewhat fresh. Those players are not brought back by low effort ideas. They might consider returning if they see staff really acknowledge that things haven't been done quite the way they probably should, and that players haven't always been treated so well in recent years. They might be tempted to play again if the game actually starts to look like there's something new to experience, instead of just the same old minus whatever areas and clans have been culled since they left. It takes two parties to reconcile.

Quote from: Fergie on October 28, 2015, 10:42:32 AM

This highlights one of the major problems that have cost the game players. By RPI standards, you have an enormous staff and such a well-defined game that there's no good reason why everything has to be low effort, minimal workload, quick fixes. It should be really easy to build for Armageddon, everyone's intimately familiar with the theme and the game world as it has never changed significantly. Your staff doesn't need to constantly get used to overhauls and revamps, so there should be no obstacle for high effort projects. I can't think of anything that has been added to this game in the last five years which looks like it took more than a weekend to make. Meanwhile, you've closed off myriad storied areas and clans, often in the name of reducing workload. Where do these extra resources go? Why does it feel like everything is the quick, easy solution? It's difficult not to get the impression that today's staff does as little as they can get away with, and routinely removes things that are difficult for them.

I suspect one of the reasons that staff is looking for lower investment ideas is because if they're going to put a lot of effort into something, it'll probably be one of their own ideas that they're excited about. If you get a suggestion that you're not super excited about, but may still be a good idea, it can be somewhat of a fool's errand to try to dedicate massive resources to. More than likely you'll peter out half way through the project.

Perhaps if we were talking about high effort endevors we should reorient the discussion to:

Hey, what's staff excited about doing? Do you want help? Ideas on how to do it?

Double Post

Quote from: Fergie on October 28, 2015, 10:42:32 AM
A lot of stuff that I don't really feel the need to respond to line by line, even though I disagree with nearly all of it

The thing that most of your post makes clear is that you have a perception about the game and its staff and what we've done that doesn't match up with what has actually occurred.  You've missed where I've pointed out some high-effort things we could focus on...in lieu of your tunnel-vision on me pointing out some of the low-effort ideas we could also focus on.  We've even apologized for screwups we've had, both individually and collectively.  It's not as easy to find because there's not a post or thread detailing all public apologies from staff, but it's there, we've done it.  I won't even get into the comment about how anything done in the past 5 years could've been done over a weekend--that's hyperbolic to the point of silliness.  :)

Maybe you haven't seen these things, or maybe you do want to discuss these things more seriously.  If you want to discuss these things individually, I'd be more than happy to do so.

Are you one of these alienated veterans to which you are referring?  If so, what can we do to retain you?

Quote from: nauta on October 28, 2015, 10:19:10 AM
I agree, that we shouldn't focus our energies on banned players -- what you want to go after are the players who were exciting roleplayers, got stuff started, then just... vanished, often without a word.

This is something we do...maybe once a year, once every two years.  It's probably time to do it again.  We go through player history stuff and find the ones that aren't playing anymore, and send them an update e-mail thing with "here's what's been happening, we've missed you, maybe you could swing by and say hello?"

We could do it more often but we also don't want to spam people.

Quote from: Inks on October 28, 2015, 10:15:07 AM
I would like if players could affect plots from a pre-determined outcome (railroading) as well. If savvy players stop x from happening deus ex shouldn't be used to make x happen. This would be a good step in putting story and engagement back in the hands of the players. Such as a tiered choice tree you could write up in 10 mins and you only need to plan the next choice in detail. But if there is a choice and if pcs with ulterior IC motives could alter that would be pretty cool.  

The Black Robe plot in Allanak this year was one such plot, or at least close enough to count it.  Players got to be involved in having their Houses or groups support different sides of the conflict.  Player actions and reactions determined the end results.

I'd like to point out that this takes a lot longer to do than suggested.  The more potential steps involved, the more work needs to be done, especially if any building is involved (most plots require that).  Otherwise, we end up pausing a lengthier amount of time in between each step, and players may lose interest in the plot altogether.  This is an area where we can find a happy medium, surely.  The Black Robe plot was easier to make open-ended because there were already existing pieces we could use (Red Robes were already in-game and built).  When the plot requires mostly "animation and destruction", we can better prepare for almost any eventuality thrown into the mix by players.  When the plot requires more building or a specific end-goal (from an OOC stand-point) in mind, there's less room for the "end result", but plenty still available for the tracks leading to the railroaded destination.

Quote from: Nyr on October 28, 2015, 11:22:39 AM

Quote from: Fergie on October 28, 2015, 10:42:32 AM
A lot of stuff that I don't really feel the need to respond to line by line, even though I disagree with nearly all of it

The thing that most of your post makes clear is that you have a perception about the game and its staff and what we've done that doesn't match up with what has actually occurred.  You've missed where I've pointed out some high-effort things we could focus on...in lieu of your tunnel-vision on me pointing out some of the low-effort ideas we could also focus on.  We've even apologized for screwups we've had, both individually and collectively.  It's not as easy to find because there's not a post or thread detailing all public apologies from staff, but it's there, we've done it.  I won't even get into the comment about how anything done in the past 5 years could've been done over a weekend--that's hyperbolic to the point of silliness.  :)

Maybe you haven't seen these things, or maybe you do want to discuss these things more seriously.  If you want to discuss these things individually, I'd be more than happy to do so.

Are you one of these alienated veterans to which you are referring?  If so, what can we do to retain you?

The fact that you disagree with all of it is enough to probably deter those players. I'm sure it's not news to you that you're rather often cited as the reason, and that an entire community has gathered in large part around their disputes with you personally. The fact that you completely deny it tells me that there's not likely any chance of reconciliation with that group of people. It would take a few concessions on your part that I don't reckon you'd make. I'll not go into private debate with you because you're known specifically for requesting this and then treating the person you speak privately with so badly that they never want anything to do with you again. I was willing to be civil on the public forum in the interest of perhaps encouraging change that would help a game that I used to love, but I don't think that'll happen if you maintain this "you're wrong about everything, let's talk privately where nobody can see the tone I use for you" approach.

Suffice it to say that it's not the first time (https://youtu.be/dnjAcWPY4rU?t=74) Armageddon's staff has been plagued by this, and I think it has lapsed back into this habit since Sanvean's departure. For my part, there's probably nothing you can do to retain me if you're not open to any of what I say. Why should I? I've pointed out what I think is wrong and you "disagree with nearly all of it."

Quote from: Fergie on October 28, 2015, 11:42:15 AM

Quote from: Nyr on October 28, 2015, 11:22:39 AM

Quote from: Fergie on October 28, 2015, 10:42:32 AM
A lot of stuff that I don't really feel the need to respond to line by line, even though I disagree with nearly all of it

The thing that most of your post makes clear is that you have a perception about the game and its staff and what we've done that doesn't match up with what has actually occurred.  You've missed where I've pointed out some high-effort things we could focus on...in lieu of your tunnel-vision on me pointing out some of the low-effort ideas we could also focus on.  We've even apologized for screwups we've had, both individually and collectively.  It's not as easy to find because there's not a post or thread detailing all public apologies from staff, but it's there, we've done it.  I won't even get into the comment about how anything done in the past 5 years could've been done over a weekend--that's hyperbolic to the point of silliness.  :)

Maybe you haven't seen these things, or maybe you do want to discuss these things more seriously.  If you want to discuss these things individually, I'd be more than happy to do so.

Are you one of these alienated veterans to which you are referring?  If so, what can we do to retain you?

The fact that you disagree with all of it is enough to probably deter those players. I'm sure it's not news to you that you're rather often cited as the reason, and that an entire community has gathered in large part around their disputes with you personally. The fact that you completely deny it tells me that there's not likely any chance of reconciling. I'll not go into private debate with you because you're known specifically for requesting this and then treating the person you speak privately with so badly that they never want anything to do with you again. I was willing to be civil on the public forum in the interest of perhaps encouraging change that would help a game that I used to love, but I don't think that'll happen if you maintain this "you're wrong about everything, let's talk privately where nobody can see the tone I use for you" approach.

See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnjAcWPY4rU

Suffice it to say that it's not the first time Armageddon's staff has been plagued by this, and I think it has lapsed back into this habit since Sanvean's departure. For my part, there's probably nothing you can do to retain me if you're not open to any of what I say. Why should I? I've pointed out what I think is wrong and you "disagree with nearly all of it."

Then play a role that doesn't involve you with Nyr in any way.

I love this game but there is no denying there are some staffers I will simply not play under. If they become the leader of my clan/group in a rotation of staff....I find a reason to get out quickly because I know I don't have any desire to be part of anything they do.

There are also staffers I will intentionally try to play under because we do get along well.

It isn't that they are wrong or that I am wrong most of the time. Most of the time it is just that I don't like them personally and they probably don't like me personally.

It is what it is. Not everyone is going to agree with each other but you have options that let you not have to be part of their world. Nyr is a Producer. Play a role that you enjoy that does not need or even want staff oversight. Those exist and can be very fun.

That is my recommendation. It works for me.

Quote from: Nyr on October 28, 2015, 11:31:09 AM

Quote from: nauta on October 28, 2015, 10:19:10 AM
I agree, that we shouldn't focus our energies on banned players -- what you want to go after are the players who were exciting roleplayers, got stuff started, then just... vanished, often without a word.

This is something we do...maybe once a year, once every two years.  It's probably time to do it again.  We go through player history stuff and find the ones that aren't playing anymore, and send them an update e-mail thing with "here's what's been happening, we've missed you, maybe you could swing by and say hello?"

We could do it more often but we also don't want to spam people.

Nyr, really? More than one email every two years is spamming?  This is something simple that -could- possibly produce good results.  And it sounds like it is already part of the program, yet just never gets done.  

This kind of highlights an issue; Are there current staff limitations which prevent solutions to improving player retention from being implemented (i.e. being overworked already)?

If so, how can we constructively reduce those limitations?

Quote from: Fergie on October 28, 2015, 11:42:15 AM

The fact that you disagree with all of it is enough to probably deter those players.

The points you've made that I disagree with:

• pre-planned plots are overrated
• Armageddon has never had a heavy emphasis on plot
• most plots tend to entertain a small group of people
• no events since the Copper War that would sow the foundation for new char types
• the game has remained the same since then
• everything was just light shows and nothing actually mattered or was anything of substance
• that we don't actually want to focus on any high-effort work
• anything added in the past five years looks like it took less than a weekend of work

I don't agree with you on those points, but those are your opinions and you can believe those things if you like.  I just disagree with them.  This is not the end of the world.

QuoteI was willing to be civil on the public forum in the interest of perhaps encouraging change that would help a game that I used to love, but I don't think that'll happen if you maintain this "you're wrong about everything, let's talk privately where nobody can see the tone I use for you" approach.

I didn't say you were wrong about everything.  I said I disagreed with almost everything you posted.  I also meant discussing the things you posted individually, not discussing the things you posted privately.  There's no reason to discuss them privately; you posted them here.

QuoteFor my part, there's probably nothing you can do to retain me if you're not open to any of what I say. Why should I? I've pointed out what I think is wrong and you "disagree with nearly all of it."

I have no problem with discussing those things individually, one thing at a time.  Please post one specific concrete suggestion that we should do that we aren't already doing (or something we should stop doing that we currently do), and we can address those things one area at a time.  That way, we don't get bogged down!  :)

Quote from: Nyr on October 28, 2015, 11:31:09 AM

Quote from: nauta on October 28, 2015, 10:19:10 AM
I agree, that we shouldn't focus our energies on banned players -- what you want to go after are the players who were exciting roleplayers, got stuff started, then just... vanished, often without a word.

This is something we do...maybe once a year, once every two years.  It's probably time to do it again.  We go through player history stuff and find the ones that aren't playing anymore, and send them an update e-mail thing with "here's what's been happening, we've missed you, maybe you could swing by and say hello?"

We could do it more often but we also don't want to spam people.

That's a really good thing!

I also have had a vague idea about a feedback mechanism or an exit questionnaire (e.g., if someone stores, you could ask them why they stored, and where they think things might be improved -- maybe you do this, and that's great.  I've never stored.)  I once piggybacked some feedback on the back of a staff kudos I sent, since staff had asked me if there were ways one could improve the experience in the rinth.  I actually never heard anything back about that in about a year.  (Maybe a fluke, and trust me, it was all positives.)  What's important about a properly functioning feedback mechanism is it keeps things off the gdb and the internets in general, where something positive can turn into something negative on a dime.

It might be important to stress that not all feedback is hostile or aggressive, some feedback is positive and constructive, even if you disagree with it, and just as the IG experience isn't about winning and losing but about telling collaborative stories and killing things with bone swords, so too the out of game experience (minus the killing things with bone swords).  That's in reference to your line here:

Quote
...it was a confrontation in which staff disagreed with the player, and since staff has the final word, staff wins, the player dislikes losing, the player quits, and then the player complains about the whole ordeal.

I wouldn't consider that winning.  

I'd doubly encourage players to pursue ways of providing positive feedback.

I also have to say that sometimes what you say publicly comes off as a bit strange.  For instance, you wrote:

Quote
There's ideas here about removing systems that just clog things up but I don't really see any specifics about what it is that clogs things up (just like previous threads) so...maybe I'll skip past those!  Wink

Why did you wink?  Don't you think that the players who posted those suggestions feel a bit ignored as a result of you saying you'll just 'skip past them', without following up, privately or publicly, even with a simple: Well, that's an idea, and hopefully I'll circle back around to addressing it, but...? (I'm not even sure what you are referring to!)  
(In fact, isn't the wink sort of a salt-in-the-wound move?  I just don't get it.)  I'm not saying you have to answer each post here, but what probably would be more constructive is to not dismiss a whole swathe of suggestions with a wink.  This is one area where 'tone' is important.

Quote from: nauta on October 28, 2015, 12:28:27 PM

Quote from: Nyr on October 28, 2015, 11:31:09 AM
...it was a confrontation in which staff disagreed with the player, and since staff has the final word, staff wins, the player dislikes losing, the player quits, and then the player complains about the whole ordeal.

I wouldn't consider that winning. 

Put simply, if there's a disagreement over something game-related and staff disagrees with the player on the matter, at the end of the day, what staff end up doing/deciding is what occurs.  That is what I mean by "since staff has the final word, staff wins".  I was not making a statement about it in any other way than that.

Quote

Quote
There's ideas here about removing systems that just clog things up but I don't really see any specifics about what it is that clogs things up (just like previous threads) so...maybe I'll skip past those!  Wink

Why did you wink?

I wanted it to be clear that the tone of that specific line should be taken in a light-hearted manner.  It was a reference to a non-specific concern, similar to one that I saw in another thread, so I responded and added an emoticon at the end.  Perhaps I should have used a different one.  I don't like the big cheesy smiley face one though because that can be taken sarcastically. 

Maybe text is a medium in which people can read too much into something--with or without emoticons.  :-\

QuoteDon't you think that the players who posted those suggestions feel a bit ignored as a result of you saying you'll just 'skip past them', without following up, privately or publicly, even with a simple: Well, that's an idea, and hopefully I'll circle back around to addressing it, but...? (I'm not even sure what you are referring to!)

I'm not sure what they're referring to, either.  Let me clarify below.  As it turns out, it was only one suggestion, so I'll quote it and clarify with context.

Quote from: Voular on October 27, 2015, 05:24:40 PM
Make the world more mysterious by eliminating the systems rules with more staff meddling with your shit.

This idea here about removing systems rules isn't very specific, not sure what you're referring to here.  We can't improve on (or even offer an explanation for) things that aren't specified!  If you'd like to elaborate, feel free.  If not, no worries!  ;)

Good players probably leave quietly because they get burnt out of putting in a lot of effort to try and create change in the gameworld and/or get staff cooperation on a plot, without success or recognition. When they leave it is a feeling of relief, as all of that time and energy they spent just to be abruptly killed by a staff-animated critter really doesn't feel worth it in hindsight. You might see these players stick around if:

a.) it wasn't such a god-awful grind to become influential and or powerful
b.) There weren't arbitrary limits on the number of times per year they can roll up a decent combatant (see above suggestions on "why 4 ext subguild apps a year!?) AND OR the number of times they can roll up a noble or GMH family member (role call only)
c.) Staff allowed them the ability to modify the gameworld realistically without there being a long approval process. Build this, that, add this, that door, building, hut, fortification.

In contrast to the above, I think there are players who are dedicated to destruction and death. They may have left the game because they have gotten multiple warnings from staff about how they need to report up in advance before PKs, or they need to limit the number of PKs they do or else forced storage. I get the reasoning behind those warnings, but the core issue isn't that there was too much death but that growth and progress took too long and it was unbalanced. So, assuming a, b, and c are accomplished:

d.) Allow us to PK wantonly. Require a post-PK report and require us to wish up in the moment of the kill, and to give advance warning when possible, but stop putting OOC limitations on our murdering. If you want to animate a large-scale NPC response to a murderer go ahead, but cut the OOC warnings/threats of a ban/threats of forced storage.

These changes require major attitude and policy changes from staff, but it would draw more players back, those who wanted to build and accomplish but felt like their hands were tied, and those who wanted to play as true antagonists to the former and felt like their hands were tied also.

I really, really would love it if you guys opened up extended subguilds to the karma system, as suggested. I used to never special app, but now I feel like I don't have enough spec apps anymore. There are so many new things and concepts I want to play, but I'm always carefully managing my spec apps now and calculating when my next will open up again, which is so different from what I ever used to do or ever wanted to do.

I know I can just play regular subguilds, but I'm so excited about the more complex concepts that the extended ones open up, it's hard not to want that.

Quote from: Beethoven on October 28, 2015, 01:00:21 PM
I really, really would love it if you guys opened up extended subguilds to the karma system, as suggested. I used to never special app, but now I feel like I don't have enough spec apps anymore. There are so many new things and concepts I want to play, but I'm always carefully managing my spec apps now and calculating when my next will open up again, which is so different from what I ever used to do or ever wanted to do.

I have no problems with that myself, saw that mentioned earlier.  Will shoot it over towards the coder peeps to see what is needed to divorce this from the rest of the proposed CGP stuff.

Double how fast time passes. 16 years for 1 RL year.  Recruit years now 3 weeks instead of 6.

Quote from: Nyr on October 28, 2015, 01:02:57 PM
I have no problems with that myself, saw that mentioned earlier.  Will shoot it over towards the coder peeps to see what is needed to divorce this from the rest of the proposed CGP stuff.

Awesome! :D

That's exciting. Also, if you could ask the coders how terribly difficult it'd be to finish coding the wagonmaking skill that'd be baller. Building wagons and having easier access to extended subguilds probably nets you another 10-15 players active per day at least!

Quote from: KankWhisperer on October 28, 2015, 01:08:39 PM
Double how fast time passes. 16 years for 1 RL year.  Recruit years now 3 weeks instead of 6.

I'd rather see skills go up twice as fast than time speeding up, myself.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 28, 2015, 01:16:03 PM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on October 28, 2015, 01:08:39 PM
Double how fast time passes. 16 years for 1 RL year.  Recruit years now 3 weeks instead of 6.

I'd rather see skills go up twice as fast than time speeding up, myself.

It can be pretty demotivating not seeing your skills increase for the longest time, yeah.

Quote from: Norcal on October 28, 2015, 12:16:43 PMNyr, really? More than one email every two years is spamming?  This is something simple that -could- possibly produce good results.  And it sounds like it is already part of the program, yet just never gets done.  

This is a fine line. I wouldn't want to see more than one email from Armageddon a year, myself.  One every six months at most.  If I wasn't playing, I mean.  It doesn't take much for me to hit the "spam" button on repeated emailers that I have no interest in, and then I never see email from that sender again.

I am playing, so obviously this doesn't apply to me, but...just saying, if I'm quick to bin the spam I'm sure other people would be too.

Quote from: Old Kank on October 28, 2015, 04:13:36 AM
1.  Update the MotD regularly.  When I used to check out MUDs, the first thing I wanted to know was, "Is this game actively maintained?"  If the MotD hadn't been updated in two years, I logged off and didn't go back.

Yeah, getting someone on the motd would be great.  Mentions of RPTs, rolecalls, a weekly death tally, and recent changes in the world would be great.  Even putting a weekly trivia question in there or something would be fun.

Quote from: LauraMars on October 28, 2015, 01:19:25 PM

Quote from: Norcal on October 28, 2015, 12:16:43 PMNyr, really? More than one email every two years is spamming?  This is something simple that -could- possibly produce good results.  And it sounds like it is already part of the program, yet just never gets done.  

This is a fine line. I wouldn't want to see more than one email from Armageddon a year, myself.  One every six months at most.  If I wasn't playing, I mean.  It doesn't take much for me to hit the "spam" button on repeated emailers that I have no interest in, and then I never see email from that sender again.

I am playing, so obviously this doesn't apply to me, but...just saying, if I'm quick to bin the spam I'm sure other people would be too.

Yeah, those were my thoughts.  I wasn't saying "more than one per year" is too much, but "more than once per year might be too much especially if that player hasn't responded to previous attempts to engage them."

Quote from: NyrI have no problem with discussing those things individually, one thing at a time.  Please post one specific concrete suggestion that we should do that we aren't already doing (or something we should stop doing that we currently do), and we can address those things one area at a time.  That way, we don't get bogged down!  :)

There's so many things that it almost feels odd to post a single one, because it'll be a brick in the wall. If I had to pick one concrete suggestion, it would be for you, personally, to acknowledge that there's a divide between staff and players which needs to be mended. We can say that it has to come from you because you're the producer, if that's nicer than because most of the complaints are about you. There's too much hostility, both from staff and from that growing crowd of players (current and former) who feel wronged. It goes both ways but I do feel it starts with the staff. This issue lies at the root of most of the other problems, and needs to be addressed before the other problems.

I don't think you really like most players, and thus don't trust them enough to do things that matter. It leads to excessive snark and manipulative rhetoric on the GDB, habitually vindictive private correspondences, and a tendency to deny players any creative freedom. As a consequence, many players have come to dislike you and distrust staff in general. Change this with a serious and believable admission that things aren't as they should be, and I think it'll suddenly be much easier to improve the game as a whole. People won't be so afraid of becoming the arbitrary targets of staff disfavor, won't be afraid to post their honest views and be met with callous snark from staff, and you might recuperate enough players with a renewed appetite for Armageddon that much of the stagnation takes care of itself.

It's not just a matter of population. These issues have persisted for years, long before the numbers started to drop significantly. The playerbase has learned that they can't do anything noteworthy because they always get told no, so they lose their inspiration and love for the game. Without any lasting competition, the numbers were okay for a while but even this has now begun to falter, even though it's far from the first sign of trouble. It's just the first one that can't be staunchly denied. But before you can do much about this, you have to handle the two-way animosity that has built up over the last few years.

Improve the atmosphere around this game and you'll find that not only will it be easier to improve the game itself, it'll also need much less fixing. Armageddon isn't salvaged with RPT schedules and tinkering with the guild system. These are not the reasons people quit. It's because Armageddon has become a game where nothing happens, where people aren't allowed to matter, and where there's no connection between the game's features and how people are told it should be played. That's on staff.

I'm having a hard time expressing what I want to say. This will be my third attempt; sorry if it comes out all garbled and confused. I KNOW it's going to be tl;dr.

Before I played Armageddon, I came from some RP-enforced but more H&S MUDs (which I was terrible at, by the way, because I was only there for the RP, so I was constantly PK'd into oblivion) and in those places, the game world is just where the players do their coded/emoted thing. There's no expectation that it will ever change. People always group up and head to the Forest of Blah to kill snorglefaxes and gain XP in a certan level range. People ascend to the top of the Tower of Blurgh to collect the magical artifact that all mage characters need in order to be remotely viable. And people go to the inn to chat. The same clans were always enemies of each other, the same NPCs always gave out the same generic fetching quests...that's just the way it was.

When I came to Arm 5 years ago, of course I knew I was playing in a more realistic and developed game world. I knew I was finally free of the generic fantasy quest bullshit and power-leveling painted in a thin shiny glaze of minimal RP. I wasn't one of those H&S players who asked where the weak mobs are so I could go level up my ranger (although I'm certain my other hilariously noobish mistakes were just as facepalm-worthy!) No, I was glad to be rid of all that. What stuck with me was the idea that the game world was just a static environment to play in. It didn't even occur to me that something could be built by players. And when so much was coded, I was pretty content anyway. That assumption stayed with me for YEARS, to the point where even a year or so ago when one of my PCs was approached by a templar that wanted to help him build a building, I took it as one of those virtual goals that I'd have to find an excuse for not happening. (This was before the whole MMH thing, of course.) It didn't even cross my mind that she was talking about shooting for an actual, tangible goal, difficult as it may have been. (Due to IC circumstances, that plot never got off the ground.)

Only very recently have I been able to completely shed the notion that the game world isn't supposed to be changed by players. I'd heard IC about famous historical PCs building things and making changes in the world, but it always seemed like a once in a King's Age thing, something extremely outside the norm. My question is, why was I able to maintain that assumption for so long? I think it's because something about Armageddon feels static rather than organic. It's not only accepted, but expected that the bartender in the Gaj will always be the same guy, forever. Same with every other tavern. The noble houses always seem to keep the same feel. There's no sense that people behaved differently or that culture was any way different in the past than now, except maybe in Tuluk, but that seems to have resulted from an OOC effort to "fix" it more than anything. Honestly, all these static staples don't feel so different from The Tower of Blurgh being the place where everyone knows to go to for the supercool respawning wand.

I hear a lot of disgruntled or just discouraged vets saying that you're entrenched in a bureaucratic nightmare the second you attempt to make any real changes or shake things up. The response I most often hear staffside is that the only reason people think this is because the belief is self-perpetuating; that people who think trying to change things is a waste of time won't try, so they won't ever be able to test those assumptions. Well, that sounds fair enough, but whether or not the world can be changed, it doesn't feel like a place that can be changed. Maybe if the perception is the problem, it's the perception you need to work on. Because honestly, I'm not enough of a mover or a shaker to know how possible that stuff is in actuality. I just know how the general vibe is, and it doesn't seem conducive to change.

I'm not sure how someone could go about making the game world appear more organic and malleable. Staff would probably have a better idea than I would.

I used to have character who started his own small company (i'll keep it vague), but since i had alot more time to play back them, they used to stumble upon new players alot. My character would take the time to show these 'lost' people around, teach them survival tricks, and how to greb. They would see what they were good at and try to lead them in a profitable path, with the excuse that they would eventually come back to buy goods/services from him. This would involve alot of ooc chat, as I taught them the basic commands and showed them around. Several of them did. And I know some of them died, made another character and came back to play  with him some more. Their RP style and mistakes were obvious but they were still learning.

What this game needs is a special secret role call, for volunteer players in the right positions to stop into the gaj 'coincidently' when a brand new player logs in, in order to strike a conversation. The system would do the following: whenever someone new to the game logs in, these volunteer players would be notified. If they can go meet the newbie and spend time with them showing them the ropes, they would type 'accept newbie', and all the other volunteers would be notified that this newbie is being taken care of.


It sounds oocly jarring, but we need a system like this so that no newbie falls in the cracks. This game can be dull and very hard to pick up when you first begin but that changes the moment someone shows up and begins to show you around, or begins to talk to you and RPs with you. If we had a system like this I believe the new player rentention would go up. Again this is from experience just from that one character running my little company which i know for a fact increased the player count by at least 1 or 2. However not every character is suited to do this job, it fits better if you are an independant hunter for example vs a gemmer or someone who players in a location where newbies don't start. Then again any volunteer player should be experienced enough to help a newbie learn the game regardless of what they are playing.

But again we need that support system to notify us when those new players log in.

My main suggestion is get rid of the 'too big to challenge', 'monopoly' and 'culture of no' thing we have going on in the game. I think everyone would acknowledge you can't readily challenge the GMHs, city states, the Sand Lord, Sun Runners, etc. So I would suggest taking out nearly every clan that is too big to fail with perhaps the Arm of the Dragon remaining as 'the law'. 'Byn would remain.

Kadius, Kurac, Salarr, Noble Houses, Sun Runners, and Akei should all be closed. They're all too big to fail background NPC/VNPCs.

What would I replace them with? I would replace them all with player run clans. These clans would mostly have to pay a tithe to whoever they were a subset of. Sell Armor, then Salarr gets 25% for doing nothing. Salarr is too big to fail, your clan can be squashed however.

Allanak proper would have one or two warehouses available for player run clans. The 'rinth would have one. Red Storm would have one. Luir's would have one. Morin's would have one. I would also add a coded 'raider camp' that moves between various locations every week or so that players can have a semi-secure setup in.

Why? I think that if players were all competing for these minor merchant house positions, they would feel that what they did mattered. You -don't- matter to the closed organizations but to these upstart organizations, you are important. What the players do would now matter. The staff wouldn't have to say no as much because now you are just picking fights with people of generally the same social level as you. If your organization wins then after a couple RL years you get coded into the game as NPCs and begin the game of warehouses again. Personally I really think this would be a lot more fun and engaging for the playerbase.

I think that is an interesting idea. I don't think we are to the point yet that we can really manage that, but I do like the idea of it in theory.

Quote from: Old Kank on October 28, 2015, 10:19:06 AM

Quote from: Nyr on October 28, 2015, 09:45:01 AM
There's ideas here about removing systems that just clog things up but I don't really see any specifics about what it is that clogs things up (just like previous threads) so...maybe I'll skip past those!  ;)

I have no idea what ideas/posts you're referencing, but here's the one that comes to my mind:  CGP, and it's little cousin, special app requirements.

Scrap CGP.  Neat idea, but it's stuck in coding limbo.  Here's the thing:  You guys moved the bar by adding extended sub-guilds (ESGs), and now I have absolutely zero interest in playing a class/subguild character, I only want a class/ESG character with skill bumps, and I only get three of those per year.  This isn't a huge deal, but now I'm playing with the mindset that I have to be stingy with my characters because each one has to last four months.  I assume a lot of people feel this way.

Could we just add ESG's to character creation with karma restrictions?  And if so, could you make some high-karma ESG's that have all the skills people want, and not just one or two?  Give me a spy ESG that gives sneak, hide, scan, and listen, please.  Or a gladiator ESG that gives slashing weapons, parry, and shield use.

At the VERY least, look at some of the popular class/ESG combos, and make them full-fledged karma-required classes.  Warrior/outdoorsman is popular?  Make a bandit class that gets the warrior tree, plus scan, hunt, and direction sense.  Assassin/cutpurse gets a lot of love?  Make a rogue class for 3 karma.  How about a Weaponmaster class that's just the warrior tree, but with all skills bumped twice, yours for only 6 karma.

Let me save my special apps for off-the-wall zany shit that you guys have no interest in seeing in game.

ETA:  Also, ease up on the restrictions against players recruiting for roles.  One of the hardest things about leadership roles is finding your right-hand man that makes it all possible.  Let people recruit their damn friends to play at their side, and don't get upset when they plan world domination over a beer at a real bar instead of the Gaj.

I really like all of OK's ideas here. these are pretty cool!

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 28, 2015, 01:16:03 PM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on October 28, 2015, 01:08:39 PM
Double how fast time passes. 16 years for 1 RL year.  Recruit years now 3 weeks instead of 6.

I'd rather see skills go up twice as fast than time speeding up, myself.

I'd agree with this as well. Sorry for double post!
modified to add:
Basically. I -understand- why it takes a while to improve someones skills in game. The thing is. It shouldnt feel like a second job to get anywhere on a character. Part of having fun on a game like this is the feeling your character is progressing.

now, that doesn't mean people should be twinking 24/7 and hoping to get INFINITE power. But I can really asure that if people can build up a character quicker that there would be less complaints about lame PC deaths, because all that hard work just went down the drain! most of the people who play armageddon are grown people with jobs and limited free time.  I feel that there would be a bigger focus on the Rp because people realize that gaining skills is more lenient. I don't think it needs to be like ..5x faster, or anything 2.5x at best - though, from what players i've seen speak of mages and THEIR ability to branch quickly. I don't think mages need to branch/gain new spells faster.

Just saw OK's idea about letting you recruit your friends. I don't think this is going to do anything to encourage the vets to come back, but it might help with newer players. For example, my boyfriend. He's logged in maybe three times ever, but I could probably get him to come back and stay if I wasn't afraid of interacting with him too much or being accused of favoritism. Let him roll up somebody that has an excuse to interact with my character. It doesn't mean I'll immediately drop all pretense of fair play and start giving him extra supercool favors and OOCly warning him about stuff he shouldn't know about. It just means he might enjoy getting to know the game a bit more if somebody OOCly familiar was at his side. Right now, even if he logged in and my PC did have a perfectly good reason to want to interact with him, I'd try to avoid it because I don't want either of us being accused of seeking each other out.

Quote from: Fergie on October 28, 2015, 02:04:13 PM

Quote from: NyrI have no problem with discussing those things individually, one thing at a time.  Please post one specific concrete suggestion that we should do that we aren't already doing (or something we should stop doing that we currently do), and we can address those things one area at a time.  That way, we don't get bogged down!  :)

There's so many things that it almost feels odd to post a single one, because it'll be a brick in the wall. If I had to pick one concrete suggestion, it would be for you, personally, to acknowledge that there's a divide between staff and players which needs to be mended.

Sure, I'll give it a shot, but I do not think you are going to like the caveats added to the acknowledgment. 

There's a divide between some (definitely not all) players and staff (either individually or as a whole), which we can both try to mend. 

That means that players that feel there's a rift between them and staff need to want to mend that rift.  For our part as staff members, we can try to do that by talking to the ones that are willing to talk to us individually about these things; our door is always open.  We can try to reach out to more, but as strange as this may sound, we don't know everything and we may not actually know who is out there that feels there is this rift between them and their staff.  That's why we encourage players to start on their end to talk to us--it means that they, at the very least, want to address things, whatever the case may be.  If they don't want to and they feel like it should be our job to know they are discontented, what can we do?  We can try and reach out to them anyway if we know who they are; that's probably something that can be looked at for sure...but we'd have to know who they are in order to do that.  It's not insurmountable, but it is a challenge--we'd have to be pretty sure about the identity.

Next suggestion (or response to the above, if you prefer).

Also:

Quote from: Eurynomos on August 05, 2015, 04:08:26 AM
There is no Player and Staff divide beyond the illusion of one, fabricated by the history of our experiences together. We are on the Player's side, because we are also Players. We are on the Staff's side, because we are also Staff. We dance the line between both worlds, because we choose to make the game a better place to play in, and a better place to Staff over. We actively encourage each other not to dwell on GDB drama. We pick up the slack when other Staffers have duties that call to them IRL -- Family, friends, merry-making, kids, wives, husbands, and other hobbies. We achieve great goals that we set for ourselves -- And we admit when we make mistakes. After all, we're only human.

Humans love continuity. We desire to see a connection between the past, the present, and the future. We like to remember how things were, because it gives us context for who we are. I say this, because when you look at the continuity of ArmageddonMUD, you can't be anything but incredibly impressed at how far we have come. And it's easy to forget how far we have come, because we take it for granted. Just like when you are sick, all you can think about is how sick you are, how horrible you feel, how 'normal' feels like a quality you never even had...And when you get better, you can't even remember what sick felt like.

Every year that ArmageddonMUD still exists is a year it has bettered itself -- The continuity between the past and the present shows a rich tapestry of change. Perceived mistakes are addressed, sometimes poorly, and then adjusted again, and again. Documentation for clans that didn't exist is written and implemented, and then re-written when errors or inconsistencies are noticed. Code is revamped, changed, and revamped again, constantly improving on the old, and creating where there was lack.

Communication between Staff and Players has never, in the existence of the game, been as good as it is now. Checks and balances are in place to leave a paper trail of communication between Staff, and Players. Protocol has been created, and is followed, to remain as professional as possible on a free to play RPI. Gone are the days of emails to the MUD account with possibly no response, or a response months later. Context is provided through this paper trail, so that future generations of Staff can read back and through old logs, PC relationships and histories, and so forth.

I think communication is key to any successful relationship. And our communication has never been better than it is now. Following the continuity bit, we can only aspire to achieve greater goals, to engage the player base, to make a fun game that people want to play, and to provide an experience that is unlike any other experience on the Net.

Speaking as a Storyteller, I can only say that my goal is to provide intelligent suggestions to the rest of Staff on how to make the game better, and offer my opinions on their own ideas and concepts, while attempting to weave entertaining stories for the players of ArmageddonMUD, and finishing with the icing of enhancing your own trials and tribulations. I'll reiterate that there is no Player or Staff Divide beyond what illusion of one is perceived by certain Players who feel, in their tale of continuity, that they were dealt a bad hand.

I also had 'bad account notes' with Staff in my dealings with them. I had chips on my shoulder about Nessalin being a douche to me in how we interacted with one another. I felt Staff was, at one point, out to get me. I refused to speak with Nyr at one point, due to a back and forth on a few requests I had open, and then re-opened to continue arguing, and then opened again to keep re-arguing. I asked Staff to not make notes on my account that were 'feedback' oriented unless I asked for it. Despite being a prima donna and basically being a little shit, I joined Staff, and here I am today. So I suppose I am saying, even the misfits and highly opinionated can and will be on Staff. People with opinions and passion tend to care about the game they pour their time into.

We are all on the same side of the fence, and there is no Iron Curtain. Believing there are two sides of the fence, or there is an Iron Curtain, is entirely up to you.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on October 28, 2015, 02:24:35 PM
My main suggestion is get rid of the 'too big to challenge', 'monopoly' and 'culture of no' thing we have going on in the game. I think everyone would acknowledge you can't readily challenge the GMHs, city states, the Sand Lord, Sun Runners, etc. So I would suggest taking out nearly every clan that is too big to fail with perhaps the Arm of the Dragon remaining as 'the law'. 'Byn would remain.

Kadius, Kurac, Salarr, Noble Houses, Sun Runners, and Akei should all be closed. They're all too big to fail background NPC/VNPCs.

What would I replace them with? I would replace them all with player run clans. These clans would mostly have to pay a tithe to whoever they were a subset of. Sell Armor, then Salarr gets 25% for doing nothing. Salarr is too big to fail, your clan can be squashed however.

Allanak proper would have one or two warehouses available for player run clans. The 'rinth would have one. Red Storm would have one. Luir's would have one. Morin's would have one. I would also add a coded 'raider camp' that moves between various locations every week or so that players can have a semi-secure setup in.

Why? I think that if players were all competing for these minor merchant house positions, they would feel that what they did mattered. You -don't- matter to the closed organizations but to these upstart organizations, you are important. What the players do would now matter. The staff wouldn't have to say no as much because now you are just picking fights with people of generally the same social level as you. If your organization wins then after a couple RL years you get coded into the game as NPCs and begin the game of warehouses again. Personally I really think this would be a lot more fun and engaging for the playerbase.

This would ultimately be my dream for Arm. Having players directly participate in things that are just too big for them to effect significantly is a recipe for frustration. That said, these elements of oppression add tremendously to the atmosphere of the game. Making them NPCs and giving players little ponds to be the big fish in would be my ideal solution.

However like Desertman said, I don't really see a path to get to this point.

Player ability to effect the outcome of big, world changing plots is already quite high.  If you use the Black Robe plot in Allanak as a recent example, player choices directly effected a big portion of that entire plot line.  I doubt that random independent grebbers had much to do with it (from my vantage point at least, it doesn't seem that way), but if you were a noble, Templar, or a sponsored clan leader you definitely had an opportunity to sway the course of events.  Some did, in a big, big way.  Some hid under a rock (which was probably the intelligence IC decision to make, to be honest...heh).

• The battle in the sky above Allanak between the two Black Robes was sparked off because of player choices (although, I suspect this part was railroaded and inevitable.  PC choices might have delayed/accelerated this outcome though.)
• The fall of Ten Sarak was the direct result of player choices on both sides.
• When the violence in the streets broke out was 100% decided by player choices.
• A Red Robe being executed in the Arena was the direct result of PC actions.  
• Who ascended to the Black Robe was, essentially, decided by players even if no single character entirely decided that outcome.  
• Who ascended to Red Robe, to replace the elevated Black Robes, was at least partly decided by player choices.

I do want to say though, it isn't like staff rolled up and said, "Excuse me, madam, but we'd like you to choose whether or not Great Lady Sath or Great Lord Valika shall ascend to the Black Robe.  Please cast your ballot by 9PM."   Events happened, choices were made at those events, and looking back I can see how those choices affected the outcome.  No one knew what the outcome would be of the choices they made (at least I sure as hell didn't), but that's realistic.  I'll never know if staff had a certain direction in mind, and twisted the story to make sense based on the choices that were made, or if they changed the actual direction of events based on those choices...but frankly I don't really care.  The end result was the same.  It was fun, and didn't feel railroaded.

Combat is fine but other skills could be adjusted a bit.

Its not only that most skills should train faster, but I also feel like some skills should start a little higher. Either at apprentice or journeyman depending on the guild of the character, so that they are able to a bit more do more from chargen. However I agree the amount of time it takes for any character to become decent is way too long, resulting in people not wanting to  risking the lives of their characters and contributing to lack of plots from the player side.

Code based player retention?

Honestly the problem with player retention has nothing to do with code tweaks.

That being said; opening extended subguilds to karma system is a superb idea.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 28, 2015, 04:39:28 PM
Player ability to effect the outcome of big, world changing plots is already quite high.  If you use the Black Robe plot in Allanak as a recent example, player choices directly effected a big portion of that entire plot line.  I doubt that random independent grebbers had much to do with it (from my vantage point at least, it doesn't seem that way), but if you were a noble, Templar, or a sponsored clan leader you definitely had an opportunity to get involved.  Some did, in a big, big way.  Some hid under a rock (which was probably the intelligence IC decision to make, to be honest...heh).

• The battle in the sky above Allanak between the two Black Robes was sparked off because of player choices (although, I suspect this part was railroaded and inevitable.  PC choices might have delayed/accelerated this outcome though.)
• The fall of Ten Sarak was the direct result of player choices on both sides.
• When the violence in the streets broke out was 100% decided by player choices.
• A Red Robe being executed in the Arena was the direct result of PC actions.  
• Who ascended to the Black Robe was, essentially, decided by players even if no single character entirely decided that outcome.  
• Who ascended to Red Robe, to replace the elevated Black Robes, was at least partly decided by player choices.

I do want to say though, it isn't like staff rolled up and said, "Excuse me, madam, but we'd like you to choose whether or not Great Lady Sath or Great Lord Valika shall ascend to the Black Robe.  Please cast you ballot by 9PM."   Events happened, choices were made at those events, and looking back I can see how those choices affected the outcome.  No one knew what the outcome would be of the choices they made (at least I sure as hell didn't), but that's realistic.  I'll never know if staff had a certain direction in mind, and twisted the story to make sense based on the choices that were made, or if they changed the actual direction of events based on those choices...but frankly I don't really care.  The end result was the same.  It was fun.

It sure as Drov was. wizturbo is right. What I liked about that plot is that even though it was something going on in the highest echelons of society, it trickled down to affect the general populace, with the rioting and violence going on. I wasn't a big fan of the big DBZ battle but all the intrigue and ultraviolence that followed was awesome. And it didn't feel railroaded--it felt totally organic, and the NPCs involved felt very real. If I didn't send a kudos about that entire arc, I should have and will send a belated one soon.

And I agree, skills should start higher AND train faster. The slow grind of mundanes doesn't really facilitate much RP in my opinion.[/list]

Skill bumps might shave a few hours off of the grind, but unless you're playing 40 hours a week and using a skill timer it's difficult to  get to a point where you feel your character is competent in a "reasonable" time frame. At least where combat is concerned.

I'd like to see Armageddon be more of a game and less of a part/full-time job.

Quote from: Beethoven on October 28, 2015, 04:56:05 PM

Quote from: wizturbo on October 28, 2015, 04:39:28 PM
Player ability to effect the outcome of big, world changing plots is already quite high.  If you use the Black Robe plot in Allanak as a recent example, player choices directly effected a big portion of that entire plot line.  I doubt that random independent grebbers had much to do with it (from my vantage point at least, it doesn't seem that way), but if you were a noble, Templar, or a sponsored clan leader you definitely had an opportunity to get involved.  Some did, in a big, big way.  Some hid under a rock (which was probably the intelligence IC decision to make, to be honest...heh).

• The battle in the sky above Allanak between the two Black Robes was sparked off because of player choices (although, I suspect this part was railroaded and inevitable.  PC choices might have delayed/accelerated this outcome though.)
• The fall of Ten Sarak was the direct result of player choices on both sides.
• When the violence in the streets broke out was 100% decided by player choices.
• A Red Robe being executed in the Arena was the direct result of PC actions.  
• Who ascended to the Black Robe was, essentially, decided by players even if no single character entirely decided that outcome.  
• Who ascended to Red Robe, to replace the elevated Black Robes, was at least partly decided by player choices.

I do want to say though, it isn't like staff rolled up and said, "Excuse me, madam, but we'd like you to choose whether or not Great Lady Sath or Great Lord Valika shall ascend to the Black Robe.  Please cast you ballot by 9PM."   Events happened, choices were made at those events, and looking back I can see how those choices affected the outcome.  No one knew what the outcome would be of the choices they made (at least I sure as hell didn't), but that's realistic.  I'll never know if staff had a certain direction in mind, and twisted the story to make sense based on the choices that were made, or if they changed the actual direction of events based on those choices...but frankly I don't really care.  The end result was the same.  It was fun.

It sure as Drov was. wizturbo is right. What I liked about that plot is that even though it was something going on in the highest echelons of society, it trickled down to affect the general populace, with the rioting and violence going on. I wasn't a big fan of the big DBZ battle but all the intrigue and ultraviolence that followed was awesome. And it didn't feel railroaded--it felt totally organic, and the NPCs involved felt very real. If I didn't send a kudos about that entire arc, I should have and will send a belated one soon.

And I agree, skills should start higher AND train faster. The slow grind of mundanes doesn't really facilitate much RP in my opinion.[/list]

I felt the plot was very railroaded and was only a game for those already in power. Sure players got to see cool shit but in the end just some NPC shuffling and no significant changes that matter to Joe shmoe.

Quote from: NyrThat's why we encourage players to start on their end to talk to us

Quote from: Eurynomos on October 28, 2015, 03:13:21 PM
There is no Player and Staff divide beyond the illusion of one

Then I have no faith in your intentions. You have this way of always blaming the players, making everything the player's responsibility, and generally absolving yourselves of all wrongs. Players aren't going to individually contact you because every time they do, they're subjected to your manipulative and underhanded manner of private communication, where you can use your authority to invariably railroad the subject into "you're wrong" territory no matter how much or little that's the case. If you still can't see that the problem is a systematic abuse of power, mismanagement of the game and mistreatment of players over the course of years, not on an individual basis, then there's no point in trying to reconcile with the many players who have quit the game because of you. Best of luck. The community of people who quit Armageddon because of you grows by the month. You'll continue to hemorrhage players until you can admit that much if it is your fault and the change has to come from you, or the game dies, whichever comes first.

Adios.

I like the sense of accomplishment too, but I kind of wish they'd start a leetle higher. But I'd probably be assuaged if skill bumps were karma-based instead of requiring a special app. If they only change extended subguilds, though, I'll be happy.

(I'd like to add it's mostly combat that I'm talking about. I hate playing combat characters and whenever I try, I'm reminded of why. If the grind was eased up a bit, even if it's still extremely tough to live to become a legendary warrior, I'd be pleased as Punch.)

Quote from: Fergie on October 28, 2015, 05:16:17 PM

Quote from: NyrThat's why we encourage players to start on their end to talk to us

Quote from: Eurynomos on October 28, 2015, 03:13:21 PM
There is no Player and Staff divide beyond the illusion of one

Then I have no faith in your intentions. You have this way of always blaming the players, making it the player's responsibility, and generally absolving yourself of all wrongs. Players aren't going to individually contact you because every time they do, they're subjected to your manipulative and underhanded manner of private communication, where you can use your authority to ultimately railroad the subject into "you're wrong" territory no matter how much or little that's the case. If you still can't see that the problem is a systematic abuse of power, mismanagement of the game and mistreatment of players over the course of years, not on an individual basis, then there's no point in trying to reconcile with the many players who have quit the game because of you. Best of luck. The community of people who quit Armageddon because of you grows by the month. You'll continue to hemorrhage players until you can admit that much if it is your fault and the change has to come from you, or the game dies, whichever comes first.

Adios.

Adios.  If you feel like talking to us rather than at us/about us to the GDB, our door's always open.  And just to emphasize the thing I said earlier that wasn't cherry-picked/quoted, I'm sending you an e-mail as well, as I'm at least somewhat confident on the identity front in this case.  (I'm not sure what your specific issue is--I get that your general issues are that I'm terrible and drive away tons of players, but you specifically seem to be driven away, so I'll shoot it out there to you.  I suppose we'll have to find out there and try and move past it?)

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 28, 2015, 04:50:24 PM

Quote from: Inks on October 28, 2015, 04:46:44 PM
Code based player retention?

Honestly the problem with player retention has nothing to do with code tweaks.

I can personally vouch that having to put 240 hours into a character's code-based levelling up before I reach a point where I can start playing as I want to IS a turn-off.

I've raised the idea of bumping up all starting levels in the past. In fact I wanted to move them all to a point where no one bothered to train them, putting (in my mind) the focus on RP, rather than coded advancement.  An informal query amongst players resulted in multiple people expressing a desire not to shift all skills to this kind of level. I believe the reasoning was that some felt it devalued their characters progression if others could just app in at 1 hour old and be at the level of more experienced characters.

I'd be happy to revisit the idea if thinking amongst the playerbase was different.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on October 28, 2015, 05:11:17 PM
I felt the plot was very railroaded and was only a game for those already in power. Sure players got to see cool shit but in the end just some NPC shuffling and no significant changes that matter to Joe shmoe.

That's because many of the PC choices were 'status quo' choices.

I don't want to get into too many details, as these are still relatively fresh IC events...  Okay, I do want to get into details, but I won't because staff might hit me in the face...so I'll walk on (hopefully) the edge of the line on what I can say.  

Here's one example of how major significant changes were in the hands of players, so you don't think I'm just hand waving here:

There was a candidate for Black Robe of City that was very Oash in their way of thinking.  Pro magick.  If that person won, it was safe to say the city would see a rise in the use of magick.  They didn't win, and I have good reason to believe they didn't win because of player actions.  In this particular case, I saw involvement from literally every echelon of Allanaki society.  Gemmed, Independent Merchants, GMH, Nobles and Templars all got involved in some way or another.  I've no idea if they realized they were able to sway events or not, it probably felt way over their head...but they could have.  I know, because I saw people sway them.  

I think, regardless of opinion, people who argue about what the game's direction should be and how the game can be improved are passionate and well-intentioned. At the same time, there is a need for accuracy and civility. We can't improve the game if all we have are accusations and one-sided stories. However, there are some good ideas in this thread that have been presented clearly, and I think they will be useful to staff and future plans. I know that personally, I have been inspired by one particular idea in this thread and started to draft a couple of plans related to it. Some of the ideas here are interesting and worthy of further discussion. One very interesting idea is the idea of "plot seasons" and arranging a cohesive storyline long-term.

I think the level of bureaucracy that players or storytellers have to deal with is highly overestimated. The producers are on-hand to maintain the consistent atmosphere of the game as well as an overall direction of how the came can be improved through code or policy. Admins and Storytellers are in charge of running plots of their own and supporting players with plots or building.

I can say for a fact that staff value player input whether we agree or not, and welcome continued discussion.

Quote from: Beethoven on October 28, 2015, 05:21:14 PM
I like the sense of accomplishment too, but I kind of wish they'd start a leetle higher. But I'd probably be assuaged if skill bumps were karma-based instead of requiring a special app. If they only change extended subguilds, though, I'll be happy.

(I'd like to add it's mostly combat that I'm talking about. I hate playing combat characters and whenever I try, I'm reminded of why. If the grind was eased up a bit, even if it's still extremely tough to live to become a legendary warrior, I'd be pleased as Punch.)

Extended subguilds really should not be tied to karma. It doesn't require additional staff trust and player responsibility to play a pickpocket that's really good at pottery or whatever. Karma is meant to be a requirement for roles that have additional roleplaying requirements above and beyond the minimum in the game, and extended subguilds just don't fit the bill for this at all.

Right now they're a little boost available to all players at an equal level. Honestly, we need more of these not fewer.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 28, 2015, 05:44:15 PM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on October 28, 2015, 05:11:17 PM
I felt the plot was very railroaded and was only a game for those already in power. Sure players got to see cool shit but in the end just some NPC shuffling and no significant changes that matter to Joe shmoe.

That's because many of the PC choices were 'status quo' choices.

 I've no idea if they realized they were able to sway events or not, it probably felt way over their head...but they could have.  I know, because I saw people sway them.  

Some thoughts from staff on this plot - there was some idea from staff what the end result would be: that we would have 2 new black robes. The other parts of the plot that were predetermined were the NPCs that were competing for the job, their personalities, and their personal goals.  Everything else was open and dependent on where players took it.  

We threw out multiple plot hooks, introductions and avenues for PCs to have some say/effect.  A large majority of PCs seemed to think that this was indeed a 'railroad plot' that was over their PCs head and there was nothing they could do to effect it. So they did nothing or not much at all and that meant they had no effect on the outcome. Some PCs went all in and tried some things that would/could have had a drastic effect.  I will say that there was one moment where a PC initiative was underway that we determined meant X outcome.  As the scene played out something totally unexpected happened, via intervention of another PC. It entirely changed what we had planned/thought and we had to go with things on the fly.  End result - we didn't know who was going to move to a certain position until the very final moment.  The key PC players in making that happen were a magicker, a half-elf, a commoner merchant, a servant and a couple of nobles, so not just 'one strata' of the game.

Quote from: Narf on October 28, 2015, 05:53:16 PM
Extended subguilds really should not be tied to karma. It doesn't require additional staff trust and player responsibility to play a pickpocket that's really good at pottery or whatever. Karma is meant to be a requirement for roles that have additional roleplaying requirements above and beyond the minimum in the game, and extended subguilds just don't fit the bill for this at all.

Right now they're a little boost available to all players at an equal level. Honestly, we need more of these not fewer.

I've never really understood why there's this upper tier of mundane subguilds that don't really require any more RP talent than basic subguilds. Magickal subguilds, sure. But I think there could be a bigger choice of subguilds available to all players and not just those who have done Amazing Things(tm) to gain staff attention (not to be confused with favoritism please, not what I'm saying).

There are plenty of things that require karma, rightfully, in order to play. I think we could do with more options available to all players, not just a select few.

Quote from: wizturbo on October 28, 2015, 04:39:28 PM
Player ability to effect the outcome of big, world changing plots is already quite high.  If you use the Black Robe plot in Allanak as a recent example, player choices directly effected a big portion of that entire plot line.  I doubt that random independent grebbers had much to do with it (from my vantage point at least, it doesn't seem that way), but if you were a noble, Templar, or a sponsored clan leader you definitely had an opportunity to sway the course of events.  Some did, in a big, big way.  Some hid under a rock (which was probably the intelligence IC decision to make, to be honest...heh).

• The battle in the sky above Allanak between the two Black Robes was sparked off because of player choices (although, I suspect this part was railroaded and inevitable.  PC choices might have delayed/accelerated this outcome though.)
• The fall of Ten Sarak was the direct result of player choices on both sides.
• When the violence in the streets broke out was 100% decided by player choices.
• A Red Robe being executed in the Arena was the direct result of PC actions.  
• Who ascended to the Black Robe was, essentially, decided by players even if no single character entirely decided that outcome.  
• Who ascended to Red Robe, to replace the elevated Black Robes, was at least partly decided by player choices.

I do want to say though, it isn't like staff rolled up and said, "Excuse me, madam, but we'd like you to choose whether or not Great Lady Sath or Great Lord Valika shall ascend to the Black Robe.  Please cast your ballot by 9PM."   Events happened, choices were made at those events, and looking back I can see how those choices affected the outcome.  No one knew what the outcome would be of the choices they made (at least I sure as hell didn't), but that's realistic.  I'll never know if staff had a certain direction in mind, and twisted the story to make sense based on the choices that were made, or if they changed the actual direction of events based on those choices...but frankly I don't really care.  The end result was the same.  It was fun, and didn't feel railroaded.

Did those players understand the potential effects of their choices, or was it really difficult to perceive the connections between actions and outcomes much less predict them beforehand?

I want to say, I only want ext. subguilds tied to karma because I don't want to spend special apps on them, and it doesn't look like the CGP thing is getting automated anytime soon. If they made extended subguilds 0 karma I'd also be happy, but then they would just make the old subguilds obsolete, which I didn't think was the intention of extended subguilds at all. I probably wouldn't mind if more people were more talented at more things, but if extended subguilds are supposed to be rarer than ordinary subguilds, there has to be some sort of deterrent.

I just don't want to spend a spec app slot that I could be spending on that sorc/whatever I've always wanted to play on a guy that's better at cooking than the average warrior. I will if it fits a concept I want to play, but it doesn't feel right for those two things to be bought for the same exact price, if you know what I mean.

Quote from: Nergal on October 28, 2015, 05:50:31 PMI know that personally, I have been inspired by one particular idea in this thread and started to draft a couple of plans related to it.

so curious

Quote from: Eyeball on October 28, 2015, 06:08:19 PM
Did those players understand the potential effects of their choices, or was it really difficult to perceive the connections between actions and outcomes much less predict them beforehand?

In my personal experiences I understood that my character's actions were going to have an affect on the outcome.  They didn't always have the outcome I predicted they would, but that was realistic.  And in some cases, small choices my character made had a larger impact than I would've thought.  

In the example that Adhira mentioned a few posts before this one however (if it's the event I think it is), I'm pretty sure the PCs knew exactly what the immediate effect their invention would have on the situation.   But I'm guessing they had no clue what the long term effect would be...i.e.. that they were essentially making a choice that would effect who would be the next Black Robe.

I look forward to seeing those logs.

I think it's pretty natural for most players to assume that, when events like Black Robe selections are happening, the plot is out of their hands. Most of our PCs aren't moving in that sphere and neither are our NPC bosses. It's good to remember and be reminded that sometimes we can have such an impact on the game world.

Personally I like to think that me emote-hitting a 10-year-old in the face with an axe had a definite impact on the Black Robe selection.

Quote from: Adhira on October 28, 2015, 05:44:10 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 28, 2015, 04:50:24 PM

Quote from: Inks on October 28, 2015, 04:46:44 PM
Code based player retention?

Honestly the problem with player retention has nothing to do with code tweaks.

I can personally vouch that having to put 240 hours into a character's code-based levelling up before I reach a point where I can start playing as I want to IS a turn-off.

I've raised the idea of bumping up all starting levels in the past. In fact I wanted to move them all to a point where no one bothered to train them, putting (in my mind) the focus on RP, rather than coded advancement.  An informal query amongst players resulted in multiple people expressing a desire not to shift all skills to this kind of level. I believe the reasoning was that some felt it devalued their characters progression if others could just app in at 1 hour old and be at the level of more experienced characters.

I'd be happy to revisit the idea if thinking amongst the playerbase was different.

For the love of everything mercilful please raise the issue again.  :'(

In the past people have been very against any sort of change, even the smallest suggestions of change met with so much resistance. However this game needs to change in order to keep up with the times. Today is my day off, and I'm still completely wrapped up with work. With iphones, tablets and skype we just don't have the time we used to, in general.  I love this game, there is alot of stuff I want to do, but sometimes all i have to look forward to is the grind, if I don't grind my character will won't be able to do anything but sit at a tavern. So do i go and play something like league of legends for 20/40 mins and have fun, or do I log in here and mindlessly train my character for the off chance that someday they can actually get to the point they can do something fun?

I still believe it should take some time for people to be fighting melikots, but lets face it, even back when defense was broken, the game didn't really suffer at all. At most the staff jsut ended up seeing people fighting gith on day one. I think a boost to all skills, allowing players to get into the game and just start RPing, start plotting, start trying things without having to train for 1-2 months before they can do things with a modest chance of success is not too much to ask in a game where even 100 day old characters can die instantly.


Woo, kinda gets me excited to think of the possibilities.

My advice on the skill gains discussion is make small changes and observe the results, rather than swing the pendulum too quickly one way or another.  Having everyone start with journeyman combat skills for instance may have a lot of unintended consequences.  Game systems are complicated ecosystems, after all.

Increasing skill up speed by some percentage amount is probably not a bad idea though.  I doubt anything terrible would happen if mundane combat skill gains came 50% faster.  But that's probably an over simplistic solution.

Also, keep in mind, that at the end of the day after combat skills are capped out, whose better than who comes down to stats.  Is it preferable for your relative combat ability to be determined by the dice rolls at chargen?  I personally don't think so.  Otherwise we're just going to see more and more suicides until you get those great rolls.

You just gotta order all minions guard me
Thats all you need.
You know how.

Quote from: Adhira on October 28, 2015, 05:44:10 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 28, 2015, 04:50:24 PM

Quote from: Inks on October 28, 2015, 04:46:44 PM
Code based player retention?

Honestly the problem with player retention has nothing to do with code tweaks.

I can personally vouch that having to put 240 hours into a character's code-based levelling up before I reach a point where I can start playing as I want to IS a turn-off.

I've raised the idea of bumping up all starting levels in the past. In fact I wanted to move them all to a point where no one bothered to train them, putting (in my mind) the focus on RP, rather than coded advancement.  An informal query amongst players resulted in multiple people expressing a desire not to shift all skills to this kind of level. I believe the reasoning was that some felt it devalued their characters progression if others could just app in at 1 hour old and be at the level of more experienced characters.

I'd be happy to revisit the idea if thinking amongst the playerbase was different.

I'm one of the people who enjoy the "accomplishment" side of the game. I like branching, because it means I've "done something cool" between then and now to make that branch happen. I would really really hate playing if I didn't have to do something to earn those accomplishments. I'm not even all that happy that the contact skill is now at master. I would've liked it better if novice was just a little more efficient than it used to be.

If skills had numeric values (I know they do but I don't know what the values are), I'd like to see somewhat of a curve, if there isn't one already. Here's my example (hypothetical, I'm not a numbers person):

"Master" max is 100, minimum 85
"Advance" 84 - 70
"Journeyman" 69 - 50
"Apprentice" 49 - 35
"Novice" 34 - 25

And if you don't have the skill on your list at all, you can still codedly attempt to do it, with a 5% catastrophic failure rate, an 85% non-catastrophic failure rate, and a 10% chance of success. Like - steal, hide, scan, sneak, backstab, sap - everyone should be capable of trying these things. Only people who have the actual skill on their skill list should have a reasonable chance of success, and "novice" should -be- an actual reasonable chance of success.

I feel like my standard-issue (not even ext subguild!) PC has been part of some very earthmoving things, and has had a lot of influence in things that have happened.  I keep hearing the complaints about not being able to influence anything but I have to say, in my experience it's just not so.  I wonder what it is that people are talking about? 

Another suggestion that came to mind was that perhaps commoner PCs that reached the highest levels in Noble Houses, like Advisor, might be able to learn to read and write.  This is a position that takes many, many IG years to reach.  Then books and histories would be produced that would linger in the world after they were gone, with names and stories of PCs that nobility would never have reason to write down but that the Advisor would care about and note.  That would give a sort of permanence to players' efforts, since their stories would likely find themselves in the Advisor's journals and be read for generations.

I usually disagree with Staff but I can empathize with Staff on one thing. It is very difficult to please players of this game. You do your best but people are never usually satisfied with anyone's ideas but their own. People don't want to lead but they definitely know the leader is doing a bad job, and they could do it better. Alas, they don't have the <insert excuse> to do it. But you, terrible.

Part of the issue is that the lower on the rung you are the less you realize WTF is going on at times. So it can, in my experience, seem very arbitrary and confusing when someone/something in power turns on you. Maybe they did a lot of RP behind the scenes, but due to the strict IC information rules, it just kind of seems like you got screwed and no one is allowed to explain it. I really don't know how to resolve it btw. I'd like to not have to wait a whole year to post logs. 6 months? It's a game.

A few ideas that might increase the playability for those with limited play time:

Have skills increase more quickly after being logged out for 15-20 hours a time. Combine this with a penalty that afterwards slows skill increases for the next several hours to compensate.Basically giving these players their skills up front so they can go to sleep at night and still keep up with players. Maybe only apply this to players in clans and only to the skills in their profession to account for learning their trade virtual.

Have skills increase more quickly when interacting with other characters more, like sparring together, etc. This would incentives players to interact more.

Often times people stay logged in hoping to catch another player online. Allow players to leave messages with an NPC or some other mechanism to allow them to communicate even though their playtimes don't overlap.

While the last one may be the most  may be the most unrealistic, maybe these ideas can be built upon or inspire something better.

Quote from: Refugee on October 28, 2015, 07:12:23 PM
I feel like my standard-issue (not even ext subguild!) PC has been part of some very earthmoving things, and has had a lot of influence in things that have happened.  I keep hearing the complaints about not being able to influence anything but I have to say, in my experience it's just not so.  I wonder what it is that people are talking about? 

Another suggestion that came to mind was that perhaps commoner PCs that reached the highest levels in Noble Houses, like Advisor, might be able to learn to read and write.  This is a position that takes many, many IG years to reach.  Then books and histories would be produced that would linger in the world after they were gone, with names and stories of PCs that nobility would never have reason to write down but that the Advisor would care about and note.  That would give a sort of permanence to players' efforts, since their stories would likely find themselves in the Advisor's journals and be read for generations.

This is a really neat idea, I agreee with this fully.

Then again, I think litereacy should be a bit more free to learn then that, but i know the lack of literacy is part of the theme.

Quote from: Lizzie on October 28, 2015, 07:03:11 PM

I'm one of the people who enjoy the "accomplishment" side of the game. I like branching, because it means I've "done something cool" between then and now to make that branch happen. I would really really hate playing if I didn't have to do something to earn those accomplishments. I'm not even all that happy that the contact skill is now at master. I would've liked it better if novice was just a little more efficient than it used to be.

I am very much with Lizzie on this. I've been playing text based games for I guess over 10 years now, and I live for the grind, the skill gains. And the thing is, once I know what I'm doing it becomes like a minigame for me to play when there's no one to RP with, or for some clans, a tool for when rping.

I have stored two characters in the  past, both of them were at points that I wouldn't be seeing any real skill gains for a long time if ever. One was in a relatively high position of authority and had a dozen or more other characters to play with. Without that grind on the side I just can't keep a real interest in Arm. For this reason the loss of sorcerer hit me the hardest, because from what I understand no other class had as many skills to learn and master.

Quote from: lostinspace on October 28, 2015, 07:40:48 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on October 28, 2015, 07:03:11 PM

I'm one of the people who enjoy the "accomplishment" side of the game. I like branching, because it means I've "done something cool" between then and now to make that branch happen. I would really really hate playing if I didn't have to do something to earn those accomplishments. I'm not even all that happy that the contact skill is now at master. I would've liked it better if novice was just a little more efficient than it used to be.

I am very much with Lizzie on this. I've been playing text based games for I guess over 10 years now, and I live for the grind, the skill gains. And the thing is, once I know what I'm doing it becomes like a minigame for me to play when there's no one to RP with, or for some clans, a tool for when rping.

I have stored two characters in the  past, both of them were at points that I wouldn't be seeing any real skill gains for a long time if ever. One was in a relatively high position of authority and had a dozen or more other characters to play with. Without that grind on the side I just can't keep a real interest in Arm. For this reason the loss of sorcerer hit me the hardest, because from what I understand no other class had as many skills to learn and master.

While I don't especially love the grind, I do love playing characters that suck at skills and then eventually become good at them. Having the char become good as soon as it goes ig kind of takes away the fun for me.

The grind makes me not bother with any PC that needs to make extensive use of coded skills any more, bar merchants, which are easy. I'd be all for having PCs begin competent. There could be an option for people who enjoy skill-grinding and have all the time to sink into that to start with novice skills across the board, but I really hate it.

Regarding the black robe plot, I felt that only a small handful of PCs had any bearing on it, that information about it was too tightly controlled so that most people had no idea what was happening, and more significantly, it had no real repercussions for the majority of players to observe. The status quo was preserved, nothing much changed. Nobody cares about the Red Robe characters or Black Robes. They're much too high up to be relevant. Though on that note, since so many organisations and establishments in the game are basically indestructible - templarates, noble and merchant houses - without staff initiating a plot to destroy them, I'd happily see them all become completely unplayable, and have all PCs be big fish in a smaller pond instead.

I'd happily see them all become completely unplayable, and have all PCs be big fish in a smaller pond instead.

Quote from: Delusion on October 28, 2015, 08:04:38 PM
I'd happily see them all become completely unplayable, and have all PCs be big fish in a smaller pond instead.

I am partial to this idea, not the start skill increases though. I could go with a 50-75% Increase to mundane skillup speed, in a pinch. Not sure if this is a player retention thing or not.

But yeah. Feeling powerless and stagnant is the complaint I hear from a lot of players.

Yup.  Not to bash the whole Black robe thing..it was well done.  However we need more plots which directly involve the majority of PCs, not a small minority of folks.

That was the good thing about having Tuluk open is that it at least created the -possibility- of battles and skirmishes, raids and counter raids, that the average PC could get involved in.

We need more of these opportunities. And it should be PvP, not P v NPC. It does not have to big mega scale either.

An example would be from a few years back when the Soh and Kurac were having a spat.  We killed some of them, they killed some of us, and it was  a lot of fun having that tension.  Such plots should be encouraged.  

More mayhem.

Let PK mean player kill and not Paper worK.

Make it FUN and they will come. And they will stay.

The Black Robe plot was 100000x better than any war plot in terms of Getting Involved AND Fun. PVP is fucking garbage and every incident of war-PVP was garbage. If the game world had more settlements that weren't defended by hundreds of (V)NPCs, maybe a war would work. But it doesn't, so there's nothing you can conceivably attack without weeks of planning and 4+ hours of playtime.

My only complaint about the Black Robe plot is that it ended. If I could login knowing I'd get to slaughter NPCs in the streets I'd be playing every day of the week.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 28, 2015, 09:55:33 PM
The Black Robe plot was 100000x better than any war plot in terms of Getting Involved AND Fun. PVP is fucking garbage and every incident of war-PVP was garbage. If the game world had more settlements that weren't defended by hundreds of (V)NPCs, maybe a war would work. But it doesn't, so there's nothing you can conceivably attack without weeks of planning and 4+ hours of playtime.

My only complaint about the Black Robe plot is that it ended. If I could login knowing I'd get to slaughter NPCs in the streets I'd be playing every day of the week.

Yes, attacking a settlement would be difficult.  It would need to be an unusual circumstance to allow it to happen with any chance of success. So just create the circumstance. It is a game..and things like that are possible.

Allanak is also defended by many VNPCs. In normal circumstances you would not be able to do what you did, and what you say you had fun doing. Yet to increase player fun, normalcy was put aside.

More of this please. You don't need to have pitched battles with armies. As I said, it does not have to be mega scale.

Massed pvp is awful.

Solo/ small scale PvP is exciting and never do I feel a rush in any game than when someone is trying to murder/murdering me/ getting murdered by me. It is seriously like the best coke rush for me in terms of time spent/ reward. Every part of that planning and murder is amazing, especially if delayed. Especially when it it's not certain which way it is going to go, one mistake can end it for a would-be murderer but...that rush either way.

It fucks me up. It is why some of my pcs are non-violent.

Quote from: Inks on October 28, 2015, 11:12:10 PM
Massed pvp is awful.

Mass PVP is especially awful for leader PC's.

Quote from: Jave on October 28, 2015, 11:37:35 PM

Quote from: Inks on October 28, 2015, 11:12:10 PM
Massed pvp is awful.

Mass PVP is especially awful for leader PC's.

How fast can you type kill Templar?

Quote from: KankWhisperer on October 28, 2015, 07:25:43 PM
I usually disagree with Staff but I can empathize with Staff on one thing. It is very difficult to please players of this game. You do your best but people are never usually satisfied with anyone's ideas but their own. People don't want to lead but they definitely know the leader is doing a bad job, and they could do it better. Alas, they don't have the <insert excuse> to do it. But you, terrible.

Part of the issue is that the lower on the rung you are the less you realize WTF is going on at times. So it can, in my experience, seem very arbitrary and confusing when someone/something in power turns on you. Maybe they did a lot of RP behind the scenes, but due to the strict IC information rules, it just kind of seems like you got screwed and no one is allowed to explain it. I really don't know how to resolve it btw. I'd like to not have to wait a whole year to post logs. 6 months? It's a game.

This post would hold water if your estranged playerbase were complaining about IC things.  Most of the time (not always) players complaints with staff aren't related to anything going on IC but with disrespectful behavior during correspondence.  

Quantifying the amount of players who have left is staggering to me.  Never before have I seen two separate forums for a game and you have almost the same amount of players posting on either.  And this isn't seen as a problem?  Hmm. Hand waving won't make this one go away.

I think there comes a time for some Arm players, and this time will vary from person to person where you realize that you'd rather just be anonymous and play the game.  I know that I have taken solace in the fact that very few people know any of the characters I've played for years now.  Maybe it's the introvert in me but I think a lot of players get to this point with the game where just logging in to get in-character and have fun is all the matters. The roleplay is all that matters.  So where does the discontent come from if the IC gameworld is not the problem?  Of course it is the out-of-character correspondence itself.  I would never attempt to contact staff these days, I have no desire to even attempt any discourse.  That's a huge problem.  It would be like a player refusing to communicate with his DM.  Inconceivable.  I don't think that is sustainable and eventually these players walk off into the sunset with their heads down.  

The plot that half of me has enjoyed the most has bee the closing of Tuluk. (The other half of me sits quietly weeping in a corner) . It shook PCs lives upside down for real, (sorry honorable storees), and changed everything for some, and continues to provide plots. This isn't Atonement, is there other plots that could pick a large bunch of PCs up by the scruff of their necks and dropping them, without further destruction of our assets?
I'm aware that most posters including me don't know most of what's going on.

Skill progression- I have relatively few PCs and I'm happy to start as a useless bit and take what comes. There is a lot of you that aren't though, so I feel people like me may have to give up some more sacred cows to have this game hopping.

Quote from: PurifiedDrinkingWater on October 29, 2015, 01:35:19 AM

Quote from: KankWhisperer on October 28, 2015, 07:25:43 PM
I usually disagree with Staff but I can empathize with Staff on one thing. It is very difficult to please players of this game. You do your best but people are never usually satisfied with anyone's ideas but their own. People don't want to lead but they definitely know the leader is doing a bad job, and they could do it better. Alas, they don't have the <insert excuse> to do it. But you, terrible.

Part of the issue is that the lower on the rung you are the less you realize WTF is going on at times. So it can, in my experience, seem very arbitrary and confusing when someone/something in power turns on you. Maybe they did a lot of RP behind the scenes, but due to the strict IC information rules, it just kind of seems like you got screwed and no one is allowed to explain it. I really don't know how to resolve it btw. I'd like to not have to wait a whole year to post logs. 6 months? It's a game.

This post would hold water if your estranged playerbase were complaining about IC things.  Most of the time (not always) players complaints with staff aren't related to anything going on IC but with disrespectful behavior during correspondence.  

Quantifying the amount of players who have left is staggering to me.  Never before have I seen two separate forums for a game and you have almost the same amount of players posting on either.  And this isn't seen as a problem?  Hmm. Hand waving won't make this one go away.

I think there comes a time for some Arm players, and this time will vary from person to person where you realize that you'd rather just be anonymous and play the game.  I know that I have taken solace in the fact that very few people know any of the characters I've played for years now.  Maybe it's the introvert in me but I think a lot of players get to this point with the game where just logging in to get in-character and have fun is all the matters. The roleplay is all that matters.  So where does the discontent come from if the IC gameworld is not the problem?  Of course it is the out-of-character correspondence itself.  I would never attempt to contact staff these days, I have no desire to even attempt any discourse.  That's a huge problem.  It would be like a player refusing to communicate with his DM.  Inconceivable.  I don't think that is sustainable and eventually these players walk off into the sunset with their heads down.  

What's your solution?

QuoteWhat's your solution?

I would say I have neither the time nor inclination to provide one. But this isn't true I could find the time to write out a long, profound and thought provoking post on the matter.  I dervise a fair bit of satisfaction in solving problems, as this happens to be what I do for a living.  Obviously this problem is subjective, there could be many solutions I just don't feel like any I provide would be considered objectively by the current administration.  Some posters here would also say there is no problem, evidenced by staff themselves saying so.  I'm just giving my two cents.

Far smarter people than myself post here and have already provided good solutions, Desertman being one of them. I'm too tired and cynical I guess.

I grow more and more disgusted and cynical about the playerbase, personally. I've seen better and better "behavior" from staff than ever, including Nyr (I'm not afraid to mention the elephant in the room). Nyr has been laying low on the GDB - why? Who knows. But that's what people claim to have wanted, and he's done that, and what happens? Everyone continues to bitch and moan and whine and gripe about how horrible Nyr is.

Not everyone "gets" Nyr. I know I don't. But that doesn't make him a bad staffer. People are parking complaints squarely on his shoulders, even though the decisions they're griping about weren't his. He was just the "mouthpiece" here to tell everyone about them. People are riled up about things that happened when he wasn't a Producer, and insisting that it's his fault, that he made those changes, he made those decisions, blah blah blah. In many of those cases, if players who whine would actually pay attention, those decisions would have been made by Adhira - or Nessalin - or, in a couple of those cases, were started by Sanvean and simply carried forward.

So everyone parks their troubles on Nyr's door and Nyr gets his hackles raised and claws out. If I learned everyone in the neighborhood was moving out because of something the Senior Housing director did in the projects behind my house, and was telling all the real estate agents to warn everyone else out because of ME...you betcha I'd have my claws out and hackles raised. And fuck all of you who have a problem with it.

You don't have to like Nyr in order to have fun in Arm. You don't even need for Nyr to like you. This isn't the 8th grade, and as we've seen in a recent poll thread, the average age of players here is in their 30's.

You want to know what's wrong with the game that players aren't coming and staying, and vets are leaving? It's you, players who actively, aggressively, and publically put the blame for everything wrong with your miserable lives on Nyr. Some of it might actually be his fault. But it's getting lost in the ridiculous hyperbole - and no one wants to play this game, knowing that they might be playing with one of you people who are here playing on proxy.

Coming from the person who used to agree with her own posts with an alt gdb account.

Honestly I have never had a problem with Nyr or any staff. But a substantial portion of the playerbase is clearly dissatisfied with something and they can speak. I don't think the drama is as much as is being made out but it obviously comes from somewhere and a raving response isolating dissatisfied players doesn't help.

Imms will lock the thread when it turns too crazy. I don't feel like the amount of these derail threads help the game, that being said. My last 3 years playing were better than my first 5, personally and in that respect I agree with you. I feel like the staff have been much better in public as well but just because I have very positive experiences doesn't mean others haven't had negative.

I would just combine this with the vis a vis old times thread myself. Anyway from my view I would say if staff keep up what they are doing and give players more chances to change the world we will be just fine.

Quote from: PurifiedDrinkingWater on October 29, 2015, 01:35:19 AMNever before have I seen two separate forums for a game and you have almost the same amount of players posting on either.

Probably more a sign of how easy it is to create a forum these days.  This certainly isn't the first time this or anything similar to it has happened; it's just way easier these days.  It's also way easier to find anything on the Internet than it was 10 years ago.

QuoteAnd this isn't seen as a problem?

Not really, at least, not it by itself.  Taylor Swift was only the most recent artist to capitalize on a phrase about players and haters.

When this thread was made I was hoping to see constructive ideas come out of it. It started off great... hopefully we don't get bogged down in hyperbole and pointing fingers.

As for me, Laura and Old Kank pretty much covered everything I wanted to say. I do think visible, well-thought out story arcs are very important, as is giving a measure of control back to the players and continuing to add to and improve the areas of the gameworld. The rooftop additions made me so excited, I'm looking forward to what's next when that project is complete.

Agreed, D.  I was hoping to get some other advice on what concrete things we could do, and there's plenty of that here, but maybe too much of the not so helpful stuff.

I've very much enjoyed the rooftop 3D-ifying as well.

I used to have a lot of friends who played role playing games.  I invited two or three of them to try this game, but then stopped because I ran into a problem.

Nobody wants to play a game where you can't link up with your friends.  Right now, it's way to hard to make something like a game family where you and bunch of your buddies can easily link up to go do crazy stuff together. 

The current rules are supposed to prevent people from effectively prevent out of game alliances from forming, however if this was seriously the intent then it would make a lot more sense to encourage people to register their alliances (for example, as a family) so that you can track these things.

By the time someone makes their third or fourth character in a row with their real life roommate, that would be an excellent time to have a chat with them about their long term interests. 

Being able to play with your friends should be streamlined. 

Quote from: ibusoe on October 29, 2015, 12:11:38 PM
I used to have a lot of friends who played role playing games.  I invited two or three of them to try this game, but then stopped because I ran into a problem.

Nobody wants to play a game where you can't link up with your friends.  Right now, it's way to hard to make something like a game family where you and bunch of your buddies can easily link up to go do crazy stuff together. 

The current rules are supposed to prevent people from effectively prevent out of game alliances from forming, however if this was seriously the intent then it would make a lot more sense to encourage people to register their alliances (for example, as a family) so that you can track these things.

By the time someone makes their third or fourth character in a row with their real life roommate, that would be an excellent time to have a chat with them about their long term interests. 

Being able to play with your friends should be streamlined. 

This change would likely require an overarching change in Armageddon's core philosophy.

Personally it'd be one I'd support, but realize that these sorts of rules (if not their exact wording) have been in place for decades.

I remember back when I was in college some fifteen years ago my friends and I all put together a little elf tribe that was loads of fun until we all got eaten by a wandering Mek. It was horrifically against the rules, we even all played in the same house together at the same time. But it definitely allowed us to get people playing that never would have played on their own.

That said, I know some people have gotten really screwed over by OOC collusion and they could probably tell you the darker side of this sort of thing. Personally I've been lucky enough not to be targeted by this sort of thing.

The fact that Adhira has been thinking of shifting the focus of this game from mindless grinding of skills to a game where you as a player can just focus on RPing your character's life, is probably the best news I've heard since extended sub-guilds/skill bumps.

You get rid of that initial grind before a character becomes decent enought to do things with, and you'll attract so many people who current feel they don't have the time to invest in this game.  Not to mention have less threads asking for more plots from staff, because people will be feel more confident of attempting plots themselves and getting others involved.

...I'm out.

Some thoughts on plots and story arcs, because I think that's tremendously important for keeping players interested:

• I love the idea of chapters or seasons, but ONLY from an administrative (and perhaps historic) point of view.  If the staff doesn't already have a story arc ROUGHLY planned out, they should.  It doesn't have to be detailed, or railroad tracks, or anything like that.  Just a basic outline of what's happening with the major players.  Tectonic shifts in the political world, disruptions in the elemental forces, major bad guys looming just outside the Known.  Things like that that the minor players (clans) may be able to respond to.


• I wonder, is the staffing structure conducive to advancing story?  Creativity by committee may not be the best route.  Was the old one staff, one clan system better in terms of competition?


• Some of the staff-driven stuff that I've seen lately has been mostly high-brow Game of Thrones stuff.  Political machinations, assassinations, powers shifting.  That seems really interesting on paper, but seems to lack the meat I'm hungry for.  I can't imagine it does anything for the average character that's not a templar or noble.  I missed the Black Robe event, so maybe I don't know what I'm on about.


• I want armies, bad guys, treasure, and other cheap, low-brow fare.  If you want to appeal to players who have grown bored, cynical, or burned out, give them something to get into with a 2 hour character, rather than something that requires 50 days played to subtly appreciate.


• I feel like players are too stingy with their scheming.  I THINK this may be the big dividing line I'm trying to find, but I'm not sure.  A lot of those old, big, really awesome plots were pushed by CLANS, and not just a single PLAYER, so all you had to do was be in the right clan, or the right geographic area, and you could get involved.  Now I feel like you have to be chosen to get involved.


• Players shit on the gypsies for their waterslides and perceived staff favoritism, but they were selective for player quality at a time when some of the playerbase was not so great, and they were able to get a lot accomplished.  Is there a benefit to putting several good players in the same basket?

The idea of 'seasons' for plots is a good one, and one that we actually implemented in the game around 3 years ago.  It's hard to sustain when staff drop out though, so we need a method that makes it easy for people to pick up where others left off. This is the reason we ask staff to write up their plots on the idb and post progress reports there. This is the 'red tape' that players seem to rail again, but if staff don't do that, that is when we either lose a plotline or story arc, or we get things mixed up and wrong and the players feel like we've changed the direction on them completely and (often rightly) they rail against that.

It's not an excuse. Story arcs and overlying plots for the game as a whole are great and Admin and STs do work on these, but I wanted to give some perspective on why there can be lulls in this area. I know from looking at our boards that the staffing team has a lot going on, or a lot in the works that they wish to do. The implementation and timing of these is entirely up to the individual staffer and generally that is directly related to their amount of free time. If you haven't seen things in game, then keep an eye out. One thing that we need to work on is how to clue in and get players involved in plots in a way that makes in game sense, but is better than we do now. Right now we hope for the trickle down (or up) to take effect and drag people in, we've erred on the side of caution when using NPCs to push people to get involved due to the large backlash we had a few years back about 'railroading' characters and only making them play out our storylines, instead of letting them do their own. As a response we moved to putting out crumbs hoping they'd get collected, and not forcing issues if players didn't seem to want to eat them.  It seems the pendulum is swinging in another direction now, so we can reassess and try and find a happy medium there.

I think also, beyond year-long "arcs", what Armageddon needs is a malleable version of the "5 year plan".

What direction is the game going in? Where should the stories take us? What do we want to accomplish both OOC and IC?

What are our goals to keep the MUD sustainable and the player-base interested and active? Economy, plot, code goals?

Stuff like that.

Another thing that definitely needs to happen is an audit/examination of the shops & merchants in Allanak.

If we are making that our primary playerbase area and cramming upwards of 50 PCs in the same city, we'll need more merchants and/or a faster rate of VNPC purchase.

I recommend a lot more of the same kind of merchants, with lower buy prices across the board, and the ability to sell anything anywhere for at least 1-2 sids.

There are also a lot of "flavor" shops that see almost 0 traffic due to the weirdness of their prices (a certain pastry/candy seller comes to mind).

And another idea!

You should be able to quit anywhere. Period. The only people that end up being punished by the inability to quit anywhere in the game are casual players.

Pros:
Groups of people can go out into the wilderness on long trips together regardless of class
Encampments can set up and dismantle at will regardless of quit-rooms
Casual players no longer need to fear being trapped far from a login area (you can't use quit OOC twice in a row)
Casual players will log in more and play a wider variety of roles
The need to flag quit rooms becomes obsolete

Cons:
Wilderness becomes far more accessible to non-combat or city-based classes


Honestly, the only "con" I see, which I've listed above, is counterbalanced by the fact that the wilderness is fucking deadly.

I guess I qualify as a veteran player who has given up on being retained beyond more than just a casual log-in.   (though, hell, ask me in a year and that may change)

There are a couple of reasons why, though probably the biggest ones are out of anyone's control.   I've played for almost two decades now, give or take a year or two off.  What drew me to the game over all the other myriad muds out there was the impression that one didn't have to be on staff to make an impact on the game world.   Granted, it took a bit of submission and a healthy relationship with your clan imm, but it was do-able.   There are, or were before the world shrunk, rooms that I could walk into that were there because I wrote them, I submitted them.   [Edit here:  Adhira & Mekeda are two clan imms that were instrumental in making that happen.  Whether I was a leader or a peon under their oversight, I never really felt micromanaged or constantly denied.  Nor did I feel like I had to stroke an ego in order to make an impact.]  Clan documentation that included my input.   Certain concepts of the game that I helped to shape - whether it was a special rank/position within a clan or a name/phrase/slang that caught on.   There's even a tribe I helped to keep alive.

Whether or not it was really me is irrelevant.   It felt like it was.   Most of that has been, um, discontinued I guess is a good word.  Closed.  Inaccessible.  Retconned out.

I distinctly remember when it was announced from on high that Arm2.0 was on and everything else would be abandoned.   I was sitting in a hotel room, chilling with a drink in my hand and I just suddenly realized how ephemeral was the vessel in which I was pouring my creativity.   Sandcastles below the tideline.   Even though it was a creative medium that I would return to from time to time, the forced impermanence had a strong dampening effect.

Then when that, too, was abandoned - I let myself get sucked back in.   Gravitating to clans I once loved and doing my best to recognize the subtle nuances of favorite veteran players through their characters.   Again, whether or not it really was the same folk or not is irrelevant.  It felt like it was and they were fun to play with.

I had some solid, strong characters and really felt like they were amazingly effective and interesting.  Not just for me, but for the players I interacted with.   Gleefully, with bright eyes and eager to end-cap the long-lived characters with reading some good account notes - I would submit to read them.

And nothing.   Or, worse than nothing, a neutral-negative comment as the only marker.   Sandcastles, right?    I'm not a GDB Superstar, I figured, nor do I always remember to file my paperwork through background and other dear diary notes.   Fair enough.  [Edit 2:  In fairness, I did get some positive feedback from a couple of character reports, though, that was inspiring but ephemeral.  Notes are forever, it seems.]  

So to ask what would bring this player back is hard to answer.  

The most fun I've ever had in the game not only didn't involve the Imms, it was sometimes in spite of them.  I don't mean that in a hostile or negative way, only that when decisions made by the folks who run the game adversely affect my character or my fun . . . it has sparked me moving them in directions I never expected.  Destroy my character's entire tribal encampment?  okay.   Force me to become a licensed contractor no longer working for my lifesworn employer?   welllll....okay.    Lock my home city off of the game?  *sigh*  Alrighty then. . .  

In all of those situations, and others like it, I found other characters in the game that were dynamic and interesting and offered at least something of a niche for me to fit into.   All of those other characters wore dazzling coats with long tails upon which to ride.  Maybe -those- players were the ones who figured out how to navigate the waters of continued imm support and attention?  Don't know, maybe they were just better roleplayers than me.  

You can sniff out a veteran player quicker than you can sniff a guild.  

But I meander away from answering a question, I think.

What would bring this player back to more than just logging in every other game year or so to smack something with a bone mace, get bored, and log out for another month or three:

*Obvious support of character-led initiatives.  I hated having to wait around for an NPC to animate just to give me marching orders.  The most fun I've ever had was being the right (or left) hand peon of some wild-eyed hungry PC leader.  Even (especially) when it got me killed.  I guess here is where the perspective of whose game it really is comes in.  I'd argue that it belongs to the players.  Mudconnect can point you to any number of player-less muds that belong to an Imm.

* Intentional cultivation of veteran players.   Some of the changes recently point to that.  I really like, for instance, the way special apps are heading.  Would be even better if it was automated.  Maybe even after X amount of approved characters/X amount of karma - remove the approval process completely.  Really, after about ten years or so of playing this game you'd think at least some folks could have earned the ability to just FastPass generic dwarf ranger +151

* Hand over controls of the clans to the players.  Let them make or break it.   Step in as Undying Senior Patriarch Bosszilla only if it starts getting stupid.

* I'm not so concerned about apologies from people I couldn't pick out of a crowd, but there really isn't a vibe of open dialogue.  Even as I write this I wonder if I am going to regret writing out an answer.   Maybe is best to just keep lurking and try to make my own subtle fun within the confines of whatever whoever is running the game this year.  

I'll think more on it and maybe edit later.   Never really thought about what would make me come back playing like I used to play.  

There's a part of it, too, that just can't be helped.  Playing Pong isn't as fun today as it was when I was a kid.

This is something I touched upon my post on skill grind but...Right now it feels like we are really dependent on clans, staff/ roles sponsored by staff to get things done.

And while I want to focus on the skills grind for now because the is my greatest hump to overcome before I feel I can begin contributing in this game, I know that it isn't the only one for other people.

Other people have mentioned there are other road blocks that prevent people from attempting stuff. The IC powers in this game are too strong. GMH need to be toned down in terms of dominance, and stuff like sorcerer kings needs to be removed completely. This has been said before but its not the player's power ceiling is too low, its just that the virtual power ceiling is way too freaking high. Its funny because removing or changing these things doesn't necessarily change the way we play. The only different is that these changes will allow people to dream big again, to plot big along side staff. 

I am not saying that staff still don't need to have year long story plots that are fed to the players gradually, or 5 year plans on where to take the game story-wise like Delirium suggested, that would help the game so much. However staff need to make sure players have the ability from creation to begin to plot and accomplish some fun and wonderful things, that will improve the game for everyone playing. Basically players need to be encouraged to attempt more plots for themselves and not depend staff them for enjoyment.

Honestly, one, one major thing, I want to see more.

is the ability to -adventure-. Small plots, minor plots, let players create the idea behind a fun adventure, maybe an indie wants to go exploring out to find some ruin.. a staff decidcated to minor adventure plots works with the indie, making out some sort of rough idea of the adventure - it might be a three or four room little ruin with neat things left behind, ect. . Improvised adventure RP is some of the best there can be.

I still have a ton of the game to explore, but things like this could open up a new avenue of fun for newbie players and veteran's alike.
Armageddon is an RPI, but its also a game. Let people have their fun with crazy adventures. Those alone create stories and things to RP around.

I enjoyed the adventures my first character had. If more stuff like that could happen on a smaller scale, I think people would be attracted to it.

Not everyone is on arm to play the political plots, or the antagonistic plots. Some people just want to get out there and challenge the unknown itself. Another major thing about these adventures and the world is that yes - its low fantasy. But Magick is a part of the world. Some of these adventures involving magick in ways can add a level of depth that makes the game feel like a proper fantasy world.

I'm sure some of you have memories of a group of six friends and adventures as characters, each with their own little niche that makes them apart of the team. in previous RPs, or D&D.  Some D&D Rps have plot, but most people don't remember it for the plot or what happened at the end. They remember it for what the characters went through, what they DID together. how that halfling rogue managed to pick the lock to the door in the nick of time before that crazy lich-wizard blasted the scariest fireball you've seen at the group. Or that lawful good paladin being at odds with the lawful evil sorcerer but understanding each other to a level that it winds up being a good cop/bad cop duo.

Now I wana try and put in a request for some ideas like this :<

Quote from: Rokal on October 29, 2015, 03:54:30 PM
Honestly, one, one major thing, I want to see more.

is the ability to -adventure-. Small plots, minor plots, let players create the idea behind a fun adventure, maybe an indie wants to go exploring out to find some ruin.. a staff decidcated to minor adventure plots works with the indie, making out some sort of rough idea of the adventure - it might be a three or four room little ruin with neat things left behind, ect. . Improvised adventure RP is some of the best there can be.

This.  Lots of this.

Quote from: Dresan on October 29, 2015, 02:36:05 PM
The IC powers in this game are too strong. GMH need to be toned down in terms of dominance, and stuff like sorcerer kings needs to be removed completely. This has been said before but its not the player's power ceiling is too low, its just that the virtual power ceiling is way too freaking high.

The day Armageddon doesn't have wicked sorcerer kings or their equivalent, is the day I stop playing forever.  I don't care if some of them are overthrown, and replaced with new powers...but taking sorcerer-kings out of Armageddon is like taking the Jedi/Sith out of Star Wars.  Some people might like Star Wars without the Jedi/Sith, and I won't fault them for having that opinion, but I'm not interested.

ZalanthanDreams:

I call it a static sandbox, much like your sandcastles beneath the tideline.  You get to create and influence things, but in the end, the game can't change -too- far, and that's really the only logical way for it to be.  If player-desired change happens willy-nilly, it either outright changes the setting, or progresses the setting beyond a point of maintaining the setting.  Because that's the sort of thing that players like to work on.  Things that progress the game world.  Thus, I view the changes made as taking parts in the changes that still maintain that setting (and thus being notable, more than game-changing).  It's a sandbox, but it's a sandbox that we can't make bigger, put too much more sand in it, or bring in any of those digger-setups that let you pretend you're a tractor in them.  It has to be a maintainable atmosphere within the setting, or else the game loses part of the identity that was the attraction in the first place.

Players can make impacts.  Making impacts happens all the time.  But you need to focus it on how you impact players and stories, rather than impacting the entirety of the known itself.  Don't look to make a new fortress that will last until the end of time with your name on it, to your credit.  Instead, make a camp of PC's out in the wilderness that actually survives.

For Staff:
-Support those sort of small scale plots, those things were players are banding together to influence their own place in things.  It does not require changes in the game world.  Sometimes it requires code innovation, but every time you code something, it's a benefit to the playerbase at large.  Everyone can now engage in a similar plot in the future.  I hear a lot of 'I can't make an impact', and I think it's a misguided statement.  I don't think anyone truly expects to leave gigantic footprints (or if they do, they might favor other methods of storytelling), but it goes a long way for there to be minor staff interactions and nudges and basically 'open' shows of support for minor plots.  Likewise, run your own small plots, consistently.  Desertman talked about this some.  It's less about sweeping world change, particularly to the new player, and more about 'Holy shit, things are happening!'.  There was once a movement among players for them to be more in control of plots, and it ended up being listened to.  Staff used to run plots constantly, players criticized it (much to my chagrin), and a newer form of 'stand back' was adopted over time.  This, I think, put staff in a position more akin to an approval board than the movers and shakers of the game that they are.  I think it may have made your job feel like everything needs to be so tightly constricted that you're less willing to let in the idea of the static sandbox.  Let small changes happen.  They can unchange later.  Make your own small changes that promote 'Holy shit, things are happening!' for at least a small group of PC's.  Salters, beware this week!  'rinthers, this this happening!  It's not RPT's.  Just make little temporary blips in the static, but consistently.

-Stop snarking.  Armageddon has never been a democracy, ever, and I don't know where that somehow filtered in.  Players provide feedback on things, and pool together ideas, but this game has ultimately always been run by staff.  It is -their- votes and designs that count.  That is okay, that is not a gripe.  But the open discussion and push for 'Everything that players want, they should get' will subject you to constant criticism from all directions, and is why the GDB can feel like a very hostile place.  However, whether it be in the privacy of a request, a GDB post, or in email...if you are worried about retention, you cannot afford to belittle people even unintentionally.  It doesn't happen often, but whenever I do see Snark, it's one of the most disheartening things for me, coming from an era where staff used to put their foot down -real hard- to me in emails, but at the same time maintained a very cordial, polite, and real invitation to continue to enjoy the things being set up for our enjoyment. The only exceptions to this were when I raged out on things, in which case even I couldn't deny that I had some harsh words coming.

-Be humble.  I know that sounds strange, but just read on through.  Realize that a lot of the game is far from perfect, and frustration comes with it.  A lot of your projects are not perfect.  A lot of your plots are not perfect.  A lot of your plans are not perfect.  Embrace that idea, because I have seen personally situations where there are implementations and systems you put up -for us- to enjoy, which we are very grateful for, but that doesn't mean we can't spot problems that aren't working exactly towards the purpose of that system, and yet a critique of said system pointing out why is either brushed aside without further attention or rather defensively reacted to.  This is unnecessary.  As staff, you are the bird's eye view of the game and are by far the most qualified to dictate what is and is not helpful to the game.  However, there are also players that are uniquely positioned or involved to be able to give you valuable data that you need to make adjustments.  Please accept that data.

For Players:
-OOC Collusion:  Someone brought this up, wanting a system in place to 'register' for.  I don't consider it a bad idea to inform them of OOC circumstances, such as roommates and such, but at the same time...I think this is more on the players.  Inevitably, you will make friends in this game.  Through clans, hangouts, whatever, it happens.  It's on the players to be responsible here.  A few years ago, there was a player who used to talk with me pretty constantly during play.  Things as specific as 'Oh, I'm here doing this.  I'm fiddling with this item to try and do this.'  This is OOC info, but not particularly damaging as long as the players are responsible about it.  With that same player, when I revealed something from my background, the response was 'Noooo, now I have to pretend not to know that which will be hard!'.  The point being:  OOC collusion is damaging when you, the player, make it that way out of some need for advantage.  Talking about the game is incredibly fun, and will help other players stick around when they can brag about their recent changes in the static sandbox.  But you have to make it your responsibility to keep it non damaging.  I realize this flies in the face of the NO OOC TALKING GUYS rule, but I'm pretty much resigned to the idea that there are friends talking to each other about this game, and that's actually a great thing for some people to be able to nerd out on the game with someone else who understands.  But staff can't regulate it.  We have to.

-Jading each other:  Stop it.  This ties in with the above.  People tend to get jaded because over the course of time, there -are- going to be unpleasant experiences, either with staff, with other players, or with the game setting/world.  We have an amazing game that we obviously all enjoy or we wouldn't be here.  There's that rule about campsites, where you leave it better than you found it.  Consider that same rule for the game, but in the realm of social interactions.  Yes, I am guilty of toxicity and vitriol as much as anyone else, I'm not saying this in a condescending way.  But it really is damaging to the morale of the playerbase to have even other players, not just a staffer who has a different priority, talking about all the terrible things in the game that they -don't- enjoy instead of pointing out the things they're still doing for fun.  When someone new joins up and browses the board...I hope they see impassioned arguments between people who care a lot about the state of the game, and not a bunch of people quibbling about how their part of the game is more important than everyone else's, or how terrible this system is.  But I'm not optimistic.

-Be creatively helpful to newbies:  I don't mean just true-blue newbies, this is a push to my other veterans.  We have 'figured things out' with experience.  We have noticed code quirks.  We have lost characters to stupid mistakes.  There are other people who have even played the game for a good amount of time but just haven't been exposed to this sort of knowledge.  While we can't share this sort of thing on the GDB, we -can- have our characters involved in the welfare of other PC's that we notice suffering from this.  Find creative ways to explain it in the game to someone, because sometimes the 'Ah, that's how that works!' or 'Wow, that's good to know' is a big part of enjoying the game.  Having it figured out through the game, rather than explained in a straightforward 'this is how the code works' fashion is also more satisfying and gives that accomplishment feeling that most players strive for.

Cooperative Competition:  This is a cooperative storytelling game, but with an autonomous world constantly updated and interacted with via code.  The setting of that world is not a friendly one.  We, the players, can be friends, but our characters will often get in the way of each other in pursuit of their own goals.  Come to terms with the idea of this, because it is not an assertion that my plots and goals are more important than your plots and goals, it's a reality that my character is going to do what's best for them, even if it makes me feel like an asshole to you on a player-to-player basis.  People will kill each other.  People will fuck up your plan so that theirs can succeed.  It's going to sting, it might infuriate you, it might make you cry, if you're one of those.  Accept the fact that despite our cooperation in forming this web of stories and plots and our own desert Game of Thrones, there is very real competition that will be led in a realistic way that preserves that atmosphere.  The harder we push for the OOC understanding of 'Let's be nice about it', the further this understanding that the game wants to kill you and PC's are not a party of D&D adventurerers goes away.  The understanding on an OOC level does not need to be 'Hey, your plots are important to you and we should all foster each other's plots', because we all already understand that and know it and embrace it.  But that does not always fit into the game.  The understanding needs to be emphasized that zalanthans are not people bound by modern moral codes, and sometimes we'll get in the way of each other.  Cooperatively, we can make it fun so far as we still maintain that level of competition that brought the conflict into being.

Take Risks:  I talk about this a lot.  There is a risk aversion among us.  This makes sense, it really does.  But it also lowers the danger experience of the game.  I won't say we're all here for it.  But I will say that Armageddon is the only game that can -inject- adrenaline into me in the blink of an eye.  That is an amazing feeling, when you manage to come out the other side of it.  It's a terrifying feeling.  The sudden chance of loss of your character makes you appreciate the character and what it has and what it does.  When we live in a safety net, that appreciation can quickly fade into a feeling of monotony and boredom.  Risks exist in the game, risks are presented, and there are often payoffs that -require- risk, but no one feels like tackling it until that safety level has been reached.  There was a leader I (relatively) recently interacted with that roped me into some incredibly risky situations.  In game, they weren't always-smart- decisions.  But on the OOC level, that makes the attachment to the character, and to the game.  So please, please...don't make your goal 'live forever', make it 'find that thing no one else knows where it is, then profit' or 'become known for this'.  Risks make the game, and is the beauty of living vicariously through the game in a very dangerous world.


There's a whole lot more.  But I'm rambling now, and this is probably too long already.  Maybe more later, but I think it's important to note this is about retention, not an invitation to poke and prod about personal gripes with this person or that person.  The derail into another player/staff divide thread will not retain players.  I feel the divide is -just as much- the fault of players holding grudges over relatively minor ordeals in the long run.  The focus of retention is making experiences enjoyable, and the divide focuses on interactions that are not the majority of experiences within the game.

Oh good we are back to talking about a static gameworld which players have little perceived effect as being the problem. I approve. :)

I really liked your post, ZalanthanDreams.

Quote from: Armaddict on October 29, 2015, 04:39:05 PM
ZalanthanDreams:

I call it a static sandbox, much like your sandcastles beneath the tideline.  You get to create and influence things, but in the end, the game can't change -too- far, and that's really the only logical way for it to be.  If player-desired change happens willy-nilly, it either outright changes the setting, or progresses the setting beyond a point of maintaining the setting.  Because that's the sort of thing that players like to work on.  Things that progress the game world.  Thus, I view the changes made as taking parts in the changes that still maintain that setting (and thus being notable, more than game-changing).  It's a sandbox, but it's a sandbox that we can't make bigger, put too much more sand in it, or bring in any of those digger-setups that let you pretend you're a tractor in them.  It has to be a maintainable atmosphere within the setting, or else the game loses part of the identity that was the attraction in the first place.

Oh, to slip on those slopes and fall splashing into the tide.    I mean, okay, I guess.   Not complaining about it any more than I complain about the weather outside.  Not something I can control any more than any other independent volunteer character-actor in this mutually nurtured artificial reality.  (A truly thankless job, let me tell you, but not without its rewards sometimes.)  They did ask, though.  My answer really doesn't require agreement or instruction. 

I but look on as a very, very minor player and wonder rhetorically how well that's working and toward what goal?   

I've read things that said people weren't allowed to install a door despite money/materials.

It's a door.
Come on.


I also just want to use a sword.
Not currently cause that'd be meta.
But come on.

Also I'm drugged up right now and in pain so we'll see if I don't say stupid shit soon.

Well.  I'd say that historically it worked very well, in tandem with Player plots and influences.

Recently, less so, because as noted...there was a time where there was a criticism made against staff controlling plots and only their plots getting attention, and staff agreed to step back and leave it to players, which has made for an environment where...well.  Let me link it.

Quote-Support those sort of small scale plots, those things were players are banding together to influence their own place in things.  It does not require changes in the game world.  Sometimes it requires code innovation, but every time you code something, it's a benefit to the playerbase at large.  Everyone can now engage in a similar plot in the future.  I hear a lot of 'I can't make an impact', and I think it's a misguided statement.  I don't think anyone truly expects to leave gigantic footprints (or if they do, they might favor other methods of storytelling), but it goes a long way for there to be minor staff interactions and nudges and basically 'open' shows of support for minor plots.  Likewise, run your own small plots, consistently.  Desertman talked about this some.  It's less about sweeping world change, particularly to the new player, and more about 'Holy shit, things are happening!'.  There was once a movement among players for them to be more in control of plots, and it ended up being listened to.  Staff used to run plots constantly, players criticized it (much to my chagrin), and a newer form of 'stand back' was adopted over time.  This, I think, put staff in a position more akin to an approval board than the movers and shakers of the game that they are.  I think it may have made your job feel like everything needs to be so tightly constricted that you're less willing to let in the idea of the static sandbox.  Let small changes happen.  They can unchange later.  Make your own small changes that promote 'Holy shit, things are happening!' for at least a small group of PC's.  Salters, beware this week!  'rinthers, this this happening!  It's not RPT's.  Just make little temporary blips in the static, but consistently.

Basically, the idea of 'Yeah, PLAYER PLOTS FOREVER' was originally thought to mean that they could just do everything they could think of.  But that doesn't work in a multi-player game that has to be maintained for everyone, and over a long period of time.  So as those drastic sort of plots got put down over time, people were more and more discouraged and it turned into this 'Man, we can't do anything'.  That's the same as the original feeling, but now without people motivated to do it on the small scale, and without the enjoyment of the once-consistent larger arc activities.

This is the main trouble of the game, I think.  Me, I survive it very well, because I know that large changes -can- be made, but it's a hard process that fits with the game and requires some luck, some good places and times, and a lot of work.  I don't think this game is about having a freeform sandbox, and I think that the idea that it was designed or 'supposed' to be one is the misconception.  This doesn't have to destroy what it is, though, if the focus is shifted to what it does allow you to do.  Have a rich, static world with very deep culture and existence coded and played in...and a bunch of other people to influence, compete with, join with, steal from, protect, and so on.  The changes are on the scale of the stories.  Those are the big impacts you make.  Not on the scale of changing where the story takes place, because other people have to be able to tell their story after yours.

Modified to add:  I'd like you to stay, ZalanthanDreams :).  But I do think a lot of the problem isn't with the game.  I don't think 'Man, Arm has changed so much.' Things have been added or removed, but the game itself remains pretty close to how it's been, as far as function. I think the expectations of players has, though, based off of an egocentric point of view.  In other words...it's become more about how the game can accomodate each of us, rather than how can we use this coded structure in here to play a character.  That's what we came here for, was roleplaying.  We have people who talk about loving to play insignificant people.  Beggars.  Playing the surprises.  How much they enjoy it.  But we -lose- people who are under the impression this isn't about playing what you want, it's about -doing- what you want.  I'm not sure if that's a distinction that will result in good things or bad things, but that makes sense in my head.

I feel more often than not, the snark is a lie.

Nah but really though I just want to paint things.

I haven't read any of the posts in this thread, but I played this game a long time and quit several years ago due to time constraints:

Remove the glass ceiling. Make player interactions matter. Make player efforts matter and support them! Let them change the world!

People play games like this to get an escape from reality and ROLEPLAY something else. Let that happen. Encourage it. If you put up roadblocks at every turn players are going to get frustrated and give up. Time is a limited resource. Things shouldn't be easy, I get that. But change shouldn't be impossible. If you structure a world where no amount (or too great of an amount) of time and effort will ever be enough to change said world, players will walk away. This is the sort of game where players want to write a story for their characters. They want to write a chapter that might end up in the (imagined) book. If you remove that possibility or make it so hard that it will almost never be a reality, people are going to spend their time elsewhere.

More rambling! Sorry in advance.

Remove the limit on ALL clan caps and such (if it hasn't been done already). If Noble A wants to hire on an army of followers to serve under him who are all dedicated soldiers, let them. As long as they can pay them from their own wage and not a npc paymaster, it should be fine. If noble A then wants to go and take on a tribe in the distant west because suddenly some valuable plant has been found, let them. Then maybe the other nobles will hire on armies, and they might fight for this special plant, and then alliances might be formed with noble A and noble C to fight against noble B. The Byn might get involved as well. Sure, they can be hired by noble B to help, but then the Byn sergeant might face the wrath of noble A and C and end up dead, and a replacement might come in who is loyal to noble D... and so on and so forth. While having a main story arc in the background is great, it's the little things which admins can just CREATE that players can't, and have placed in the game world are the key to getting many players involved and having daily fun. These plots shouldn't need to have RPT's, they should just be happening all the time to keep people wanting to log in so they don't miss out.

Examples

*Rare beasts loaded in appropriate areas which might contain a magnificent hide when skinned, instead of just the standard one. Or stronger, sharper claws for better weapons. You get the picture. Maybe a small rumour finds its way to a PC who spotted the rare sighting, maybe not. It could be as simple as creating the mob, loading it, and dropping into the world, and let the players find it, fight over it all they want. Don't do this just once a RL year either, keep it frequent, but random. I know I'd be keen to go hunting daily if this sort of thing was happening.

*Gold, Silver, Bronze... small amounts can be uncovered and maybe set in place, and then it's up to PC's only to go and fight for it. It is mostly a desert world, storms could unveil just about anything long ago buried. I know this sort of stuff is meant to be rare, but from the past few years it's been practically just non existent. You add a little more to the game world, and people will go crazy over it and fight for it. If Amos the grebber finds it by some fluke, and manages to safely keep it but ends up dying somewhere remote and no one knows, then who cares. Maybe at least for that one guy he felt really special for a little while as he had it.

*Artifacts. Famous people in history, and their weapons, armour, tokens and such surfacing in the world for people to claw over, learn off, and so on.

*Magical cursed items. Maybe they can't be dropped, and give stat decreases or something similar. Then these people finding them would need to seek out mages for help.

*More lone wolf bandits or those in groups loaded in places around the Known to try and raid PC's as they travel. Even give them distinct colours if they are a bandit group, and they become more of a constant thing and target for militia and other military clans hired to track down to kill them and keep the roads safe. There should be bandit groups popping up all the time, which is easy to do with NPCs, but for PC's it is so difficult due to the time it takes to invest to get good, against how quickly it is to just get wiped out by having EVERYONE suddenly gunning for you. Make more cave rooms, hidey holes for such things so it's not just "Oh, they left Tuluk heading east to hide out?" We all know a certain cave which is more than likely the spot they went too, instead of having to consider 4 or 5 caves, which should be more reasonable.

As for skills, I don't want to see them go up any faster. I like the idea of certain characters after a great amount of work standing out from those who don't put in that work. While it might give an advantage to those that play more, it's just something to accept, as they will be the people who benefit more from many other things. If you want to become a death machine warrior, then play more. However, I think raising the starting levels might help a little for new PC's to survive the struggles. It will keep players on par, but give that little edge against NPC's/Mobs.

I touched on this before, but having something like the 'Elite Warrior' Guild, which might cost 3 Karma, and will set all combat skills at like apprentice, and maybe a couple at journeyman, might allow staff to spend less time reviewing special applications for extended sub guilds, as this process doesn't require anything more than standard approval, unless you had 6 karma and wanted to be an Elite Warrior/Outdoorsman extended sub guild for example. I feel adding new guilds might actually take a bit of work, but it would definitely be worth the extra time you would save in the long run. The same principle could be applied to all the other guilds, but with an elite version. This wouldn't be necessary though if the GCP system was finished and coded into chargen. It could be a quicker fix though?

Making wealth actually mean something. The player created clans is a great feature added. Grebber Amos who might be wealthy, can't really spend his coin on much because he's just a shitty grebber. No Kadian wants to sell him a fancy emerald necklace because they'd rather sell it to noble A, who will earn them the coin and the favour. So if Amos wants to show off bling and look important and become powerful, becoming his own merchant house will allow him to do that. That is a long way down the track, but it's a long term goal. He can still probably buy great weapons, armour, and jewellery, but he just generally can't have the best, at least not showing it off in public without the proper status to back it up. What about a GMH merchant though, what can they dream for? Why should they be working so hard to earn 20k sid, or 40k, or 60k? What can they buy with it that makes them feel special? What players can actually do is probably not so limiting, but generally they might feel it is, and don't bother to try for it because they don't think it will succeed. Maybe it's time to come up with a more public list of what they can buy or achieve for x amount of coins. Maybe becoming a GMH Agent simply requires 5 years of service, and spending 10k to buy your way into the family. Then you need another 15k to buy your own place within the estate. Then if you want another room it costs another 5k, and then you need to furnish it. Adding on a few rooms to an estate is easy work as a builder, and something so easy can mean the world to this one PC. Some people really love to play 'House'. I know I do. Just imagine if Nobles could even buy their own estates. Not just have one family estate where 20, or 50, or 100 of nobles of the ONE House live in all together. Then they are the noble player created clans. Maybe even these nobles can pay 100k to form their own blooded family name, and become separate from the Houses already in game. Then it really can become Noble Houses vs Noble Houses. If a noble wants to buy a slave for 20k (as an example), just let them. Maybe 300 coins gets taken off their monthly pay or something to explain the living costs to keep it. Next, if the noble wants the slave to be a PC, let them put out a role call in player announcements. If the person gets bored of the role or stores or whatever, that's the risk the noble took and the player of the slave, and they should wear it, but they should have the option. More options please.

I would say I strongly disagree with Armaddict. A wall of text only counts as one opinion and I feel like the majority of players want much more ability to change the world.

That being said I could be wrong. I don't think saying suck it up to everyone who disagrees with you is helpful or an actual discussion. Which is what this board is for.

For what it's worth, I've made an effort to consolidate all of the ideas in this thread - even conflicting ones - and just posted a list up on the staff discussion board, which I will update if new ideas come in. That way it's a defined resource for all staff, since we want to improve the game in ways that ideally, the players will approve of. Thank you to those who have contributed to a reasoned discussion so far!

Quote from: Inks on October 30, 2015, 07:40:11 AM
I would say I strongly disagree with Armaddict. A wall of text only counts as one opinion and I feel like the majority of players want much more ability to change the world.

That being said I could be wrong. I don't think saying suck it up to everyone who disagrees with you is helpful or an actual discussion. Which is what this board is for.

I'd agree with you that most players would love to change the world. I'd argue though that if "the majority of players" had more of an ability to change the world, then the world would be changed such that the majority of players would no longer want to play it. You can't change the world to please the majority of players, because each player wants something different. Everyone has their own individual goals, independent of everyone else's goals. MY character wants to be the first rinthi to be declared templar. But so does that other guy's, and that other girl wants HER character to be the first gemmer to be declated templar. We can't all have what we want. Someone has to be disappointed.

My idea of fun isn't the same as yours, my idea of a "changed world" that is enjoyable to play isn't the same as yours. The more people who have a hand in the change, the more muddy that change becomes. Someone has to run things, and someone has to take a step back and let others get the changes done.

I rarely have anything to do with game-changing events. I am still in the majority who would love more of an ability to get things done. But I'm also pragmatic and accept that extending that ability could be game-killing, not game-expanding. And so I'm happy to play on the sidelines, be part of someone -else's- game changing experiences when they become available for me to participate in them. I frankly don't give a shit whether that's another player or a staff member, as long as I can be involved.

Quote from: Nergal on October 30, 2015, 07:41:08 AM
For what it's worth, I've made an effort to consolidate all of the ideas in this thread - even conflicting ones - and just posted a list up on the staff discussion board, which I will update if new ideas come in. That way it's a defined resource for all staff, since we want to improve the game in ways that ideally, the players will approve of. Thank you to those who have contributed to a reasoned discussion so far!

I was very gladdened by your response. Thanks.

Liz, your examples of world changes are a straw man. Nobody is going to support a rinthi in becoming a templar. I think what people more realistically would seek are to expand the holdings of their merchant house, build an additional door here and there, design a cloak the way they want to, put up statues or other works of art, or attempt to make a small outpost or wagon. I have never heard players say they didn't like how staff kept their elf from ascending to noble status. It is the little changes that bring the world alive and make it feel dynamic. Additionally, players should be empowered to knock down other players' sandcastles and drink their milkshake. Nobody is asking for the changes they make to last forever. They are asking for realism and competition.

The idea of adding new minor houses and subsidiary groups for PCs to have more power and control in sounds better to me every day.

I actually agree with Armaddict's points, one of which is that the change that at least some people want to bring about in the world isn't so much a matter of permanent marks but a matter of temporary marks that drive a story they want to tell forward.

One simple solution (depends on code, I guess) would be to add a more Save rooms.  Players can then use the arrange command to reflect the story they are telling.  Here are some examples:

Suppose I want to make a small brothel or a gambling den or a tiny little cooking business as flavour.  I actually did all three via a very tedious process of logging in after each reboot and using the arrange command on a coin to reflect this.

This isn't perfect and it might cause some abuse (hoarding), but I don't see why staff couldn't pop in now and then and virtually rob the place (not all of it, just little reminders), or send little warnings to the player that hoarding silver rings in a hovel probably isn't a wise idea, and of course griefer PCs can wreck that shit, but at least it isn't wrecked every week at reboot.

Save rooms are a finite resource, so we can't just flip a flag on any given room and turn it into a save room, sadly.  We have an ongoing project to reclaim save rooms from areas of the game that have been rewritten or changed by history's events:  e.g. Tan Muark holdings, old Tuluk, parts of Allanak that have been rewritten, etc.

There's also some code ramifications that happen that may not be readily apparent to many players, that are nonetheless meaningful, for save rooms.

Having more "dungeon crawls" and outside threats that are more than "spider attack #999" (spider attacks are fun, but they do get old eventually) would probably go a long way into making the world feel dynamic. Raiders... Tuluki patriots... an upstart tribe of elves... a sorcerer hell-bent on carving a swathe of territory out for himself far to the oh wait that's been done.

Well, I guess we could go the "shambling undead" route too, that one's always a hoot. A nest of scorpions swarms the city during a particularly bad storm.

Gith are fleeing a terrifying sorcerer and decide to try and carve out a chunk of the southern deserts for themselves and start plauging the southlands until they're driven back by the trusty Byn. Then you find out about the sorcerer... but it's in elf territory, so what do you do? Let them deal with it? Ally with them to put it down before it gets stronger? Accuse the elves of harboring the sorcerer and attack them instead? Choices, choices!

It doesn't have to be elaborate. It just has to provide some hooks and some actions and be fun!

Let people change and improve the rooms they want to change and improve, as long as they put in the effort to do so. Let them fix up a stanky old tower... and if it gets attacked and destroyed, well, destroy it again. You really only have to update room descriptions in that case, and maybe adjust a few other variables. It's not a ton of effort, especially if the player does the writing for you.

Support player initiatives and work with them to find a way to help the world change and grow a little instead of being so stuck on "this is how it is and forever will be".

I'm with Inks and Harmless on this one.  Came here to post basically what they said.   I can come up with countless scenarios where trusting players to make changes could be a horrible idea.   Nobody is mad or disenfranchised because their idea for a flying elf furry unicorn-rider was shot down.    

I'm encouraged by some of the staff responses to the thread, even if only because it doesn't feel right now as if folks are making excuses for or arguing against the answers given (even if not everyone is seeing the same need.)   Again, looking at veteran players, you're dealing with a different demographic now than when we started.  I'd say many of us began as teenagers, either in late HS or early college, back when the internet and multi-user gaming was in its infancy.   Arm required a different level of policing, I'd argue, than it does today.  

To make assumptions about the typical veteran player demographic, I'd say you're looking at:
* Gen X, probably mid to late 30's.  Believe what you will about generational stereotypes. . .
* Likely finished with any post-secondary education, many with graduate level degrees or equivalent in certifications/training
* Spent at least 10 years in a professional environment, likely at this point to be well beyond entry level and into management/administration
* Likely a few years out from having kids old enough to play, likely with a spouse that plays
* Has spent decades now consuming literature and media related to fantasy/sci-fi fiction
* Knows intimately the mechanics of the game world and how to hurdle even a fresh new PC into a viable role
* Has made it past the worst mistakes of brand new players and survived through some very interesting times when Imms acted/reacted in very arbitrary ways

If you're still thinking of this player the same way you thought of them when they were a 19yr old college student, then you're making a critical mistake in how you deal with your clientele.  


Edited to add:

As much as I hate to suggest removing anything else (while still being raw about what has already been taken away), please kill the ever-full bags of free food-holding that are clan cooks.  Also paymasters.   GMH vending machines too.   Automating those things kills the need for characters to be recruited and cultivated into providers.  It took an entire base layer out of the food chain of fun. 

I ain't sorry for saying it.

I think this comment will dovetail nicely with zalanthasdreams' comment above:

I remember reading in a thread a while ago about the history of Armageddon, and one thing struck me.  I wish I could find it (edited: I found it here -- thanks google (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php?topic=17820.0;wap2)), but it was something about what made Armageddon a success: encouragement and enforcement.  One thing that staff has to do is enforcement -- they have to police things so that it is fair (eliminate twinks and griefers), they have to control quality, and they have to make people notice things about the virtual world that they might not have noticed.  But one thing that staff also has to do -- according to this old document -- is encouragement -- encourage good roleplay, collaborate with players on their stories, etc. -- I talk about this a lot, but I haven't seen very much of the latter, and a lot of the former. 

We're an older audience.  Perhaps, we might consider putting the emphasis on being proactive with encouragement and retroactive with enforcement -- in the last case, at least with people who have karma.  (Everyone should be encouraged.)  What's retroactive mean?  It means that they take a 'wait-and-see' stance on bad behaviour, assume innocence before guilt, give the benefit of the doubt, that sort of thing, perhaps even wait for a player complaint to come in, and also that they engage the player about the worry, and so on.  I've seen things on my account notes, and I've had things brought up to me after the fact, and used as evidence, things I was just surprised were even there -- nobody had discussed them with me, and they were pretty dubious.

An off-the-cuff idea would be to greatly simplify the karma system.  Have two, maybe three, levels of 'player trust': [tier one] new players, [tier two] longevity and a recognized commitment to roleplaying, [tier three] a recognized commitment to encouraging others to roleplay well and an acknowledge respect for the virtual world.  (Or something like that.  The karma system strikes me as something that a younger generation would get excited about -- oh, if I work hard I can achieve that and unlock that -- but something that I at least could care very little about, other than that it prevents new players from coming in out of chargen and ruining quality.)

At level two a lot of options would open up and at level three some others would open up (muls, sorcs).  Staff could cap the number of rarer options (sorcs, muls, etc.) allowed in the game at a given point.



 

Quote from: Harmless on October 30, 2015, 09:11:38 AM
Liz, your examples of world changes are a straw man. Nobody is going to support a rinthi in becoming a templar. I think what people more realistically would seek are to expand the holdings of their merchant house, build an additional door here and there, design a cloak the way they want to, put up statues or other works of art, or attempt to make a small outpost or wagon. I have never heard players say they didn't like how staff kept their elf from ascending to noble status. It is the little changes that bring the world alive and make it feel dynamic. Additionally, players should be empowered to knock down other players' sandcastles and drink their milkshake. Nobody is asking for the changes they make to last forever. They are asking for realism and competition.

The idea of adding new minor houses and subsidiary groups for PCs to have more power and control in sounds better to me every day.

This is the ticket.

Edited to add that much of the stuff mentioned (besides the wagon) is possible right now.  Even the outpost is doable, just not an easy sell. I think we need more of this and more conflict between groups. So I really like the last part of your post, as it opens the door for increased conflict.

In my experience, even what conflict might exist between GMH at lower levels, cannot get far, because such conflict does not exist at levels above the glass ceiling.  So in order to create more conflict, we need more groups which can be pushed about possibly to the point of being eliminated. Or we need staff to forget the docs for a while and push the chaos button for a resource war between the GMH. Much better than spiders IMO.

Quote from: seidhr on October 30, 2015, 09:41:56 AM
Save rooms are a finite resource, so we can't just flip a flag on any given room and turn it into a save room, sadly.  We have an ongoing project to reclaim save rooms from areas of the game that have been rewritten or changed by history's events:  e.g. Tan Muark holdings, old Tuluk, parts of Allanak that have been rewritten, etc.

There's also some code ramifications that happen that may not be readily apparent to many players, that are nonetheless meaningful, for save rooms.

Why are they a finite resource? They worked well enough in 1996 and computers nowadays are about 100 times more powerful and spacious.

EDIT: Is it the sheer amount of junk that people store in them?

I made an account long ago (couple years before my current - I don't even remember the passwords, username, character name, or email I used) due to the urging of a friend and his great stories, had, like, eight hours played, and then left.

Some of my reasons were:
- I started in Tuluk (heh)
- There was a distinct lack of anything going on as I wandered aimlessly, searching the streets for another soul. That was primarily due to my inexperience with the game (I wasn't even aware there was a GDB).
- I was playing at -another- friend's house (who had also started to play) and then a staff member was quite brusque when he or she popped in and announced the decision to flag the account due to suspicion of multi-boxing or something. I was on my laptop, he was on his computer. The way the interaction was done felt needlessly hostile, but I was an angsty youth and unaware of the IP notification you had to submit, so...
- Trying to get my bearings and locate meeting spots was a little overwhelming.
- I struggled horribly with syntax and there are a few inputs you have to learn IG instead of on the website.
- I eventually joined the Legion and came to find that sparring everyday was not as enjoyable as I thought.

To sum up, it was an overwhelming experience and I could have really used a sense of direction. I also didn't have any inclination to deal with the seemingly uptight nature of staff when I had far more enjoyable things to do during my spare time.

They're all easily solved by:
- Consolidating the playerbase (check).
- Maintaining cordial and professional interactions with -all- players. If he or she had just said, "Hey, we've noticed there are two accounts tagged to this IP, and we do have a strict policy against playing on multiple. Are you sharing an IP with somebody? If so, please request--" blah, blah. You get it.
- Introduce clans that newbies and even veteran players can pop into immediately (I wanted to join the Byn, but couldn't find a sergeant in Tuluk ). This isn't a new idea, and has been expressed multiple times by others. Mentors get boots on the ground and helpfully guide players on an OOC level via syntax issues and errors with the documentation and customs.
- I find sparring is somewhat enjoyable with more PCs, so... that may have solved itself. Taking a look at the soul-tearing grind is something to indeed put on the burner, though.

Those are a couple of things that could have been done to retain me on my first go of things as a newbie. I eventually decided to give the game another go when my Xbox broke and my laptop was far too shitty to handle anything more. Thanks, Xbox and horrible laptop!

Far as retaining veterans? I'd go ahead and vote for the suggestions to have the game in motion at all times with a progressing story; staff-run plots and/or assistance with player-created should always be in the spotlight. The Black Robe plot, for example, was excellent and I'll always wish I didn't jump in at the end of things. 2013 seems to have had the highest number of players in the last six or so years, and that was undoubtedly because of the HRPT.

Quote from: TheWanderer on October 30, 2015, 11:33:02 AM2013 seems to have had the highest number of players in the last six or so years, and that was undoubtedly because of the HRPT.

I will be (tactfully, I hope) blunt and qualify this. People were excited about the HRPT because it seemed to be leading toward a period of open warfare between Tuluk and Allanak, with Luir's and Tan Muark in the middle. They were excited for bloodshed, for battle, for raiding parties and sorties and espionage. They were excited for a shakeup beyond the norm, for ongoing conflict, a culmination of those days spent scheming and sparring.

Instead, they got what has been infamously termed the "laser light show" - a lot of "stop, wait, and watch" rather than "go forth and do!" I've already touched on my thoughts in more detail in another post (see here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49671.msg902300.html#msg902300)), so I won't repeat myself, other than to say that this is a prime example of a failure to comprehend what players really find enjoyable, and what they want - we want to DO things, EXPERIENCE the hostile creepy craziness of the world, create glorious insane memories so we can chew over them during the quiet lull times, or maybe die gloriously, but it's okay, because we died doing something epic, not because Amos's girlfriend got jealous.


edited because I forgot a link.

Yes. The reasons above are precisely why I thought the Black Robe plot was excellent and a great leap in the right direction. If players can't influence the outcome of things, like that HRPT, there's an empty feeling to the experience.

I'm certainly hoping the decisions made in the Black Robe plot come to play a role in whatever staff has been planning during the months since. It makes the game feel organic and alive.

Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2015, 11:42:27 AM

Quote from: TheWanderer on October 30, 2015, 11:33:02 AM2013 seems to have had the highest number of players in the last six or so years, and that was undoubtedly because of the HRPT.

I will be (tactfully, I hope) blunt and qualify this. People were excited about the HRPT because

I think the above is a reasonable assessment to make for its own reasons, for sure.  It should be discussed for its own reasons, as well.

However, I'd still bang the drum that a better case can be made that a more direct cause was voting.  We started looking at this and promoting it in FEBRUARY of 2013.  There was no word of a new website, there was no word of an HRPT, there was just "the game as it is."  The data points far more to voting (not to mention a snazzy website) than it does to an HRPT.  Here's the first thread (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,44983.0.html) discussing measures to improve.  To quote something I noticed then:

QuoteWe currently have 288 "in" votes for the month of February.  February has had 7 days so far.  Fewer than 40 people voting once per day could have gotten us to where we are now.  Let's assume that's about the case, then.  If those 40 people voted twice per day, we'd be at 560 by now.  That's #2 on TMS, at least by this month's current numbers.  40 people might sound like a lot, but we have 36 people online right now and it's off-peak.

Things start ramping up, per our stats (original thread here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46890.0.html)).  I'll quote some things and start in January so you can see the progression.

QuoteJanuary total:  83 new accounts
TMS -- 8 (9.6%)
TMC -- 12 (14.4%)
friend/family/word of mouth/etc. -- 8 (9.6%)

February total: 123 new accounts
TMS -- 15 (12.2%)
TMC -- 31 (25.2%)

We started pushing voting HEAVILY in February to prep for March.  This paid off:

QuoteMarch total:  227 new accounts
TMS -- 69 (30.4%)
TMC -- 37 (16.3%)

Then it explodes for a few months, presumably at least in part because of a new website.  (The HRPT wasn't announced until a few weeks before it started.)  We held #1 on TMC after a month or two and kept it from then until recently.  We held #2 on TMS for the next several months.

QuoteApril total:  452 new accounts
TMS -- 87 (19.2%)
TMC -- 148 (32.7%)

May total: 488 new accounts
TMS -- 87 (17.8%)
TMC -- 166 (34%)

June total:  464 new accounts
TMS -- 55 (11.9%)
TMC -- 162 (35%)

July total:  406 new accounts
TMS -- 75 (18.5%)
TMC -- 133 (32.8%)

August total:  425 new accounts
TMS -- 50 (11.8%)
TMC -- 174 (41%)


September total:  434 new accounts
TMS -- 49 (11.3%)
TMC -- 154 (35.5%)

We stopped being dominant on TMS after this point and were trending downwards, but still stayed near the top.

Quote
October total:  365 new accounts
TMS -- 27 (7.4%)
TMC -- 102 (28%)

November total:  305 new accounts
TMS -- 26 (8.5%)
TMC -- 125 (41%)

December total:  250 new accounts
TMS -- 28 (11.2%)
TMC -- 84 (33.6%)

The conclusion drawn at the time:

QuoteWe get a lot of new players in the door due to TMC and TMS voting now.  In fact, we get so much that it increases staff workload just to process the applications.  This isn't without rewards, either--we've seen about 20-25 players stick to the game solely due to our work on TMS and TMC this year, which is (by one method) as much as we retained total in 2010.  Voting is one of the major drivers of our player retention year over year by any method it is reviewed.

I still think that holds true.  To prove it wrong or right, vote a lot next month and see what that does to overall numbers of new players, which affects numbers of players that log in, which affects numbers of players that get and remain hooked.  Yes, other stuff should be done in conjunction with this, and I am not discounting that at all.  No, we can't hold #2 on TMS indefinitely (because when we did that in 2013, we eventually created enough of a stir that other MUDs began to compete with us solidly on TMS voting), but we've proven that we can take it and hold it for a while at least.

So, btw, vote.

(http://www.topmudsites.com/images/vote_mud.gif) (http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/topmuds/rankem.cgi?id=sanvean) (http://www.mudconnect.com/images/tmcvote1.gif) (http://www.mudconnect.com/cgi-bin/vote_rank.cgi?mud=Armageddon)

Quote from: Nyr on October 30, 2015, 12:10:28 PM

Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2015, 11:42:27 AM

Quote from: TheWanderer on October 30, 2015, 11:33:02 AM2013 seems to have had the highest number of players in the last six or so years, and that was undoubtedly because of the HRPT.

I will be (tactfully, I hope) blunt and qualify this. People were excited about the HRPT because

I think the above is a reasonable assessment to make for its own reasons, for sure.  It should be discussed for its own reasons, as well.

However, I'd still bang the drum that a better case can be made that a more direct cause was voting.  

I'd bet it's sort of a chicken and egg thing. 

You need something going on that engages the players that do come, but staff are more excited about producing for a growing playerbase.  There's certainly no guarantee that if you build it, they will come, but I can pretty much guarantee if they come and it seems (perception is reality for someone new to the game) like there isn't much going on to get involved in, folks are less likely to come back.  Those that are hooked and stay are retained by careful timing of the "next awesome (not necessarily big) thing" to coincide with when those players are approaching a low point in their own personal stories.   By that, I mean, most players do seem to drive their own stories based off what they've encountered.  Every now and then they need another jolt to inspire fresh stories based on how the world has changed around them.

Save rooms are a finite resource because there are ~3-4 'zones' that are save rooms, and these have X amount of rooms in them. And IIRC one or maybe two of those zones are completely full (in use). When we find a save room that is out of circulation or not being actively used, we tag it UNUSED and put it back into circulation. But it isn't as easy (as Seidhr said) to flip a toggle on a room. Some of those things are easy. Making a room 'populated', or changing its sector and city. But we would have to copy the room from one zone to the save zone. It's not hard, per se, but it isn't easy, either, or rather it isn't easy to do it as a 'blanket' command.

Um, what else. Oh! There's a lot of great ideas here, they've obviously sparked good discussions amongst Staff. I've found (so far) that EXTREME suggestions (close all the top heavy clans), even if they might have merit, will have less chance of being implemented, as they're not only daunting, but would be classified as an 'incredible change'. They'd change the game irreversibly in one direction or another -- I think more moderate examples can gain more traction, especially if they aren't heavy on code changes, because those take quite some time. Some of our current coding direction is modifying existing code, making it more efficient, so that future generations of coders can easier add on to existing code or modify it. Adding new code isn't beyond the realm of possibility, but it puts the onus on one or two Staffers, who have a very full plate as it is.

Just something to keep in mind! There are some great ideas here, and we (on Staff) are at the very least reading and discussing them, so you aren't shouting into a vacuum.

I lurk more than I post, but my significant other has expressed a desire again to try and play again.
It got me thinking. In some other games, that would be easy because, well. I could just have him roll up a character and our little characters could interact a bit and I could show him the ropes as I knew them, walk him around, role play with him a bit.. that sort of thing. I get that a request has to be submitted for the same IP, and that's fine, that's not the subject I'm on.

What if there were a separate instance of the game or area just for this sort of interaction? A newbie instance? I know it's not a new idea, but think of the possibilities.

-New players could get a limited feel for the game with pre-genned characters and helpers, players and GMs could walk around in this instance when they felt like it and be available for assistance. (which could be stressful, but might give a welcoming feel that some games DO have)

-EXISTING players could log in with PRE-GENNED characters and explain syntax or an OOC question could be answered at length with a confused friend who lives in a distant place and the solution could be demonstrated in game (How do I craft this? - Have limited crafting items available for small crafting demonstrations)

-Maybe there could be rooms with training dummies or a scrab where someone new could get a "feel" for combat.

-Instead of having those big player/GM meetings over Teamspeak, they could be held in game in this instance with the actual GM characters. No Teamspeak limits and maybe more people could attend? With their pre-genned characters, of course.

-Leader characters could have meeting spaces and could either use pre-genned characters or their real characters (since it would be an OOC forum to collaborate and get times and events down) A GM could even HELP them set up RPTs in this way.


I'm sure perhaps people could think of other ways this might be beneficial? Or maybe reasons why it wouldn't be. I just know that it might help to have a place that I could help someone learn to play.

Nah but really though I want to use a sword.

The 'let people buy more shit' idea sounds good.

Quote from: Nyr on October 30, 2015, 12:10:28 PM


However, I'd still bang the drum that a better case can be made that a more direct cause was voting.  We started looking at this and promoting it in FEBRUARY of 2013.  There was no word of a new website, there was no word of an HRPT, there was just "the game as it is."  The data points far more to voting (not to mention a snazzy website) than it does to an HRPT.  Here's the first thread (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,44983.0.html) discussing measures to improve.  To quote something I noticed then:

Voting seems like a good source of new players logging in to check the game out, but based on what people have been saying about their first experiences with the game having the HRPT running while these new players were checking the game out for the first time probably made all the difference.

I imagine we'll see soon if that's the case. People started really getting votes in this last half of the month. We'll probably have some new players from it, but I don't think we'll keep them for more than a session or two if there's nothing visible going on.

That aside, I haven't actually paid attention to the MOTD for a while but is there a chance we could put up a link to the existing maps of Allanak in preparation for an influx of new, horrifically lost players?

I've noticed a marked increase in logins -- Oddly enough, from players who haven't been here for a while and have logged back in again. COINCIDENCE? Or is this very visible thread having some sort of effect?!

Fix the whole "point Tuluk" thing in character generation. Too many lost newbies get stuck in Morin's which is a very newbie unfriendly place.

Quote from: WithSprinkles on October 30, 2015, 12:33:14 PM
I'm sure perhaps people could think of other ways this might be beneficial? Or maybe reasons why it wouldn't be. I just know that it might help to have a place that I could help someone learn to play.

Honestly, I think the best course of action would be to guide him towards joining the same clan as you, at least for the first character. Arranging a situation where you can both play together is not the same as colluding. The letter of the rules might say not to do this, but unless you two are in a room pick-pocketing each other or something, I question that it would be that big a deal. RL Couples have played more closely together before.

Maximize IC interaction and activities and provide the helping hand OOC. Do clan stuff, hit the world running, get him exposed to Armageddon. This can have the added benefit of making your clan look more active, which draws other players. What was once an ad hoc tutorial can then became just good ol' Armageddon with a new player or two following along learning the ropes.

It's not all that different a situation as new players being encouraged to join the Byn because it's a newbie-friendly environment that gives a lot of introduction to skill, code, and RP.

Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2015, 12:46:05 PM
Fix the whole "point Tuluk" thing in character generation. Too many lost newbies get stuck in Morin's which is a very newbie unfriendly place.

I like having the Northlands as a starting location (more options are better). The Northlands could be disabled for new characters (like other areas) or even a note in parentheses by the name in the hall of kings that says "(very low player density/population)" or something to that effect.

Quote from: Eurynomos on October 30, 2015, 12:35:55 PM
I've noticed a marked increase in logins -- Oddly enough, from players who haven't been here for a while and have logged back in again. COINCIDENCE? Or is this very visible thread having some sort of effect?!

That, and the staff are being nicer to people.  When you guys started admitting when you're wrong it's had a huge effect on our ability to deal you.  Or admitting fallibility, etc.  My staff experience has improved by like 90% over the course of the past year.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 30, 2015, 12:51:33 PM
unless you two are in a room pick-pocketing each other or something

Slightly off topic, but I thought I'd mention that there's nothing wrong with training thief skills with a friend.

Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2015, 12:46:05 PM
Fix the whole "point Tuluk" thing in character generation. Too many lost newbies get stuck in Morin's which is a very newbie unfriendly place.

AFAIK, Tuluk is not a starting location option for New Players. We've noticed a couple bugs where a few people are slipping through the cracks, but in general, this is the case (or should be the case). If Helpers are noticing questions about new players starting in Tuluk (Morin's Village), please let us know via the request tool.

Quote from: Eurynomos on October 30, 2015, 12:35:55 PM
I've noticed a marked increase in logins -- Oddly enough, from players who haven't been here for a while and have logged back in again. COINCIDENCE? Or is this very visible thread having some sort of effect?!

Do you mean this week?  Last week was legit the worst week we've had in the last five years for player logins.  Looking at this week's numbers so far we'll probably beat last week, but we're still trending under 200.

We have 181 unique logins so far this week.  Last week we had a total of 186.  I really want to hit home just how low that is for Arm:

Lowest weekly players by year:

2014: 225
2013: 246
2012: 237
2011: 224
2010: 252

Weeks 2015 had the five year low (out of 43 total weeks): 29

(http://i.imgur.com/6NpgHEZ.jpg)

My point of this is we need, to Nyr's point, to start VOTING and voting seriously if we want this trend to change.

Another thing I tried to do in this data is mark points of big changes in comments (you can see them as red arrows).  I'm curious to see how the playerbase reacts to various types of changes to the game.  I don't really have enough data so far to undeniably link trends between changes that are viewed as beneficial or punitive to the player, and really pinning down what's widely viewed as beneficial or punitive is equally hard.

Mar 2010 - Skill levels became visible
Jul 2010 - Allanak RPT large enough to be announced on the news page
Aug 2012 - Karma change, Whirans bumped to 6, Drovians dropped to 4
Jul 2013 - HRPT
Apr 2015 - Tuluk Closes
Aug 2015 - Banking updates

Quote from: Eurynomos on October 30, 2015, 01:00:23 PM

Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2015, 12:46:05 PM
Fix the whole "point Tuluk" thing in character generation. Too many lost newbies get stuck in Morin's which is a very newbie unfriendly place.

AFAIK, Tuluk is not a starting location option for New Players. We've noticed a couple bugs where a few people are slipping through the cracks, but in general, this is the case (or should be the case). If Helpers are noticing questions about new players starting in Tuluk (Morin's Village), please let us know via the request tool.

This is correct. New players do not have Tuluk as a starting option.

Quote from: Eurynomos on October 30, 2015, 01:00:23 PM

Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2015, 12:46:05 PM
Fix the whole "point Tuluk" thing in character generation. Too many lost newbies get stuck in Morin's which is a very newbie unfriendly place.

AFAIK, Tuluk is not a starting location option for New Players. We've noticed a couple bugs where a few people are slipping through the cracks, but in general, this is the case (or should be the case). If Helpers are noticing questions about new players starting in Tuluk (Morin's Village), please let us know via the request tool.

I kinda think that new players should not even be able to be Tulukis -- it's a hard role to pull off nowadays -- being an expat Tuluki in Nak -- and it might strike a lot of people as hugely discouraging to come into the game and have everyone treat you like poo.  (Just my view though: I also think new players should be heavily dissuaded from being breeds or city elves for just that reason as well.  But I can understand the balance that needs to be struck between 'options' and making sure the new player has an OKish experience.)

Quote from: Adhira on October 30, 2015, 01:07:18 PM

Quote from: Eurynomos on October 30, 2015, 01:00:23 PM

Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2015, 12:46:05 PM
Fix the whole "point Tuluk" thing in character generation. Too many lost newbies get stuck in Morin's which is a very newbie unfriendly place.

AFAIK, Tuluk is not a starting location option for New Players. We've noticed a couple bugs where a few people are slipping through the cracks, but in general, this is the case (or should be the case). If Helpers are noticing questions about new players starting in Tuluk (Morin's Village), please let us know via the request tool.

This is correct. New players do not have Tuluk as a starting option.

Okay well, I do see a lot of questions from confused Tuluki newbies coming through my helper inbox.

Maybe that is players who have had 2-3 characters already?

They just seem so incredibly confused. Maybe the documentation hasn't been updated yet? Is it crystal clear that Tuluk is no longer "Tuluk" but Morin's, a small logging village?

Quote from: Ender on October 30, 2015, 01:05:59 PM

Aug 2011 - Karma change, Whirans bumped to 6, Drovians dropped to 4

Pretty sure this was in 2012 as I recall it happening.

Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2015, 01:20:56 PM
Okay well, I do see a lot of questions from confused Tuluki newbies coming through my helper inbox.

Betting it's because they don't understand the possibly severe reaction they'll get for starting in Allanak as a Tuluki ex-pat.

First character should probably auto-pop as an Allanki human.  Period.  Then open up the full list of options.  Most folks aren't going to get Dwarfs or Elves or what it means to be a Tribal or a Tuluki until they've actually seen it.  It's bad enough that they grew up in Allanak and don't know where to buy the clothing they're wearing.

Quote from: whitt on October 30, 2015, 01:40:58 PM

Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2015, 01:20:56 PM
Okay well, I do see a lot of questions from confused Tuluki newbies coming through my helper inbox.

Betting it's because they don't understand the possibly severe reaction they'll get for starting in Allanak as a Tuluki ex-pat.

First character should probably auto-pop as an Allanki human.  Period.  Then open up the full list of options.  Most folks aren't going to get Dwarfs or Elves or what it means to be a Tribal or a Tuluki until they've actually seen it.  It's bad enough that they grew up in Allanak and don't know where to buy the clothing they're wearing.

Having a game where you have exactly one option for race and culture for a first time player is probably going to cost you more than it gains you.

Quote from: Narf on October 30, 2015, 01:45:07 PMHaving a game where you have exactly one option for race and culture for a first time player is probably going to cost you more than it gains you.

Gonna have to agree with that one, much as it pains me.  When investigating a potential game, most people like to see options, not be told "there's many options, but they're all too hard for you - so you only get one option."  While I may think that the right choice for becoming acclimated to Armageddon is to put everyone in a human suit and start them up in the Gaj - I realize it might not make an appealing first impression.

Quote from: Narf on October 30, 2015, 01:45:07 PM

Quote from: whitt on October 30, 2015, 01:40:58 PM

Quote from: Delirium on October 30, 2015, 01:20:56 PM
Okay well, I do see a lot of questions from confused Tuluki newbies coming through my helper inbox.

Betting it's because they don't understand the possibly severe reaction they'll get for starting in Allanak as a Tuluki ex-pat.

First character should probably auto-pop as an Allanki human.  Period.  Then open up the full list of options.  Most folks aren't going to get Dwarfs or Elves or what it means to be a Tribal or a Tuluki until they've actually seen it.  It's bad enough that they grew up in Allanak and don't know where to buy the clothing they're wearing.

Having a game where you have exactly one option for race and culture for a first time player is probably going to cost you more than it gains you.

Yeah... my first PC was a halfbreed. I remember obsessively studying the docs and trying to act appropriately. I got a kudos even.

Let's not limit, but let's make it as easy as possible for them to know what they're getting into.

Having an option to just be able to get into the game quickly and see the world and the roleplay is very appealing, though. When I first arrived here the sheer amount of documentation and culture to absorb very nearly scared me off from ever even seeing the gameworld because of all the barriers to entry.

Maybe an option to just be able to hop right in with an Allanaki human and a basic background would help?

Welcome to Armageddon! For your very first character, you may choose:

a) Quick-Start Option
b) Customized Option

If they choose a) they would choose a gender and be plopped into Allanak as a human, with an appropriately randomized background, sdesc, and description.

After their first character, they have to write their own.

That's a good idea.  Best of both worlds.

So we've got a way to get people 'into' the game easily...how do you get them to stay?

ropes

Quote from: BadSkeelz on October 30, 2015, 01:23:05 PM

Quote from: Ender on October 30, 2015, 01:05:59 PM

Aug 2011 - Karma change, Whirans bumped to 6, Drovians dropped to 4

Pretty sure this was in 2012 as I recall it happening.

You're correct, it's marked 2012 in the chart I posted.  Changed it in my post

Quote from: Jihelu on October 30, 2015, 02:06:08 PM
So we've got a way to get people 'into' the game easily...how do you get them to stay?

Replicate the atmosphere of the game in 2013.

Quote from: Molten Heart on October 30, 2015, 02:12:33 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on October 30, 2015, 02:06:08 PM
So we've got a way to get people 'into' the game easily...how do you get them to stay?

Replicate the atmosphere of the game in 2013.

You can't. It's not possible. Many of the staffers that contributed to 2013 being as popular as it was, are no longer on staff. There is a whole other set of staffers that are here now, that weren't staff then. Several veterans that contributed to it - are no longer playing. There is a whole new set of players who are playing, who weren't then.

The volcano was in a different place. Tuluk was not only still open, but so were Hlum nobles, and a couple of houses that have since been "absorbed" into other houses.

You'd basically have to completely retcon the game, re-create the same staff and playerbase, make them all the same relative age with the same relative state of employment/marriage/children (so that they can't say "sorry - got twins/a job/family obligations now, didn't 2 years ago, can't play like I used to"), and everyone involved would have to be 100% perfectly okay with the idea that their characters, which were alive then and aren't even in the database anymore, have to be recreated and they have to continue playing them.

I believe he's talking about recreating the general atmosphere that made 2013 such a popular time for Arm, not recreating absolutely every single detail.

I would have to return to being unemployed to recapture that atmosphere tho.

Phew, this thread moves fast.  Something caught my eye that I wanted to address:

Quote from: zanthalandreams on October 30, 2015, 09:57:46 AM
[Take out] GMH vending machines too.   Automating those things kills the need for characters to be recruited and cultivated into providers.

Since this has been one of the projects I've helped with, I just wanted to clear up a possible misconception - these vending machines only provide items that previously needed staff to load, which doesn't include things that can be crafted.  So the only thing it should kill is the need to place an order and then wait x number of days for it to be ready.

Oh, well in that case, I retract that part.   I have a vaguely different memory of one such having items that could be crafted by a GMH merchant who was provided with the correct materials. . . which negated the need to hire and cultivate up an actual PC who could make those very same things.  Convenience trumps relying on actual player interactions to provide resources.

That has been a while ago, though, and may have changed.   Sorry if I got it wrong.

One thing that those numbers tell us is that the only thing staff need to do to make the population go up over 300, is throw an HRPT and lower the karma requirement of whirans to 3 (lets not though).

However we always bleed players as soon as people begin dying and there is nothing big going on. I remember how horrible things were when Arm 2.0 had fizzled and staff were on their 'only player generated plots' policy for months. Now those were some real sad times. Suprised we didn't dip below 150 back then.  


The point is that things aren't as bad as those numbers dictate (mostly because Tuluk is closed and the player-base consolidated) , but besides voting the game should make the changes necessary to tackle the factors that make the game bleed players after big changes or events. Otherwise in the future, we'll be back here again with even lower pitiful numbers.

Quote from: Lizzie on October 30, 2015, 02:28:04 PM

Quote from: Molten Heart on October 30, 2015, 02:12:33 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on October 30, 2015, 02:06:08 PM
So we've got a way to get people 'into' the game easily...how do you get them to stay?

Replicate the atmosphere of the game in 2013.

You can't. It's not possible. Many of the staffers that contributed to 2013 being as popular as it was, are no longer on staff. There is a whole other set of staffers that are here now, that weren't staff then. Several veterans that contributed to it - are no longer playing. There is a whole new set of players who are playing, who weren't then.

The volcano was in a different place. Tuluk was not only still open, but so were Hlum nobles, and a couple of houses that have since been "absorbed" into other houses.

You'd basically have to completely retcon the game, re-create the same staff and playerbase, make them all the same relative age with the same relative state of employment/marriage/children (so that they can't say "sorry - got twins/a job/family obligations now, didn't 2 years ago, can't play like I used to"), and everyone involved would have to be 100% perfectly okay with the idea that their characters, which were alive then and aren't even in the database anymore, have to be recreated and they have to continue playing them.

Are you for real?

^

Coded limitations and blockages make me want to physically maim a small child and the only reason I even get on anymore seems to be to interact with people.

What are skills.

I think retaining people might be a lot easier if it weren't so important to be an insomniac from America's pacific regions.

More games that can be played by oneself.

Only game I know of this type is Giant's Fist.

More games, period.

I would love to see a plethora of coded games added in, or just a few, to help kill time.

Sure you can gamble in Storm, but by the time you figure it out you're waiting on that whiran special app.

I really wish this game would stop giving out account notes. There is this other mud game I used to play, once upon a time it had up to 100 people logging in. One of the main factors for its downfall to about 10-20 people at peak time, is that it has something akin to account notes.

Account notes are often full of short comments that can easily be taken out of context. Not to mention they are often very negative if not outright snarky.

I'm not saying staff shouldn't have these for their own records but they should stop showing them to players. If a person wants to improve their RP, they can ask to speak to a staff member who would gather information and have a honest, friendly conversation with them about how they can improve but please no more account notes.  

This game also needs to have a discussion on karma again. There has got to be a better system we can use to measure faith in players then this clearly biased system. It breeds toxicity and elitism because it rarely seems fair.

Frankly I would almost rather everyone have to special app for non-mundane roles if it meant we could move away from karma.  

Trusting players and making a very competent application process would encourage good roleplay and reward good players.

Or people would just lie then max fireball people.
Then again you could just monitor people who aren't trustworthy but ech.

Quote from: Dresan on October 31, 2015, 02:24:39 PM
I really wish this game would stop giving out account notes.

This is probably not a bad idea.  Though some sort of feedback loop is helpful.

With regards to account notes, the intent is to have it open as an option for people who want to see them. Those who don't want to see them never have to, since the notes and karma review are separated from each other. Submitting either type of request comes with the assumption that you can accept the constructive feedback you're likely to receive if staff feel you can improve. We don't set out to hurt anyone's feelings with notes, just to record what we see. They are short because they are limited in length - setting a note requires putting in a command while we're logged into the game, and the command length is limited to a certain length.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The other game gave them out because they thought people enjoyed reading them and would use them to improve. They always ignored how much bitterness and resentment grew out of those comments.

Its a bad idea.

There are better ways to deliver 'constructive' criticism.

Quote from: Nergal on October 31, 2015, 02:46:56 PM
Submitting either type of request comes with the assumption that you can accept the constructive feedback you're likely to receive if staff feel you can improve.

I never knew that was the assumption.  There really isn't anything formed in the way of feedback in either the account notes I've read (going back fifteen or so years) or the karma reviews I've received.   I could infer from some of the comments what was seen (at that time, by whatever individual placed the note) as being positive or negative enough to note.   

So if there isn't any constructive feed back, does that mean nobody felt I could improve? 

If there's no constructive feedback, that means there's nothing specific that we feel needs improvement. Our goal is to help a player improve and have fun, whether we provide constructive feedback or not. If you specifically don't want constructive feedback, then I suppose you could write in your karma review request you don't want any. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do that, though, because they either want karma or advice on how to improve. And account notes requests are purely a request for a dump of the account notes, without additional comment. That's for the sake of transparency.

Here are my thoughts on Account Notes/Staff Feedback Device:

I think a few things could change with regard to the 'account notes' system.  Some of these might be implemented already, but at least with me weren't done.

If a note gets entered into the pinfo (or whatever the technical name for that file is, where there's that coded limitation):

1.staff also enters that note (probably expanded) somewhere in the 'report tool', say 'Player Account Notes', so you can do: was twinking the dummy again 11/12/2012 (see #2345) in the pinfo and then expand on it in the report tool

2. if the prior note is neutral or negative in tone, this note must be positive (the goal being a one-for-one of negative/disciplinary to positive/encouraging)

3. staff inform the player via an e-mail that 'A note has been added to the file.  Would you like to enter into a discussion about it?'  (This could be automated.)

(You could combine [1] and [3] by having the note be entered into the Question/Request feature, perhaps with a special [Account Notes] in the 'subject' field.)

Basically, if you are going to say something about us in the hopes of us improving or by way of encouragement -- if you are going to provide us with feedback -- (1) it should be more than a one-sentence aphorism, (2) it should both be positive and negative (the goal is to encourage and enforce), and (3) we should know about it at the time, and not after the fact.

For what it's worth, we already do #3 as a matter of policy. Staff need to inform the player after leaving a negative note in their account notes.

Quote from: Nergal on October 31, 2015, 04:40:01 PM
For what it's worth, we already do #3 as a matter of policy. Staff need to inform the player after leaving a negative note in their account notes.

That's a good policy.  Mine must have slipped through the cracks.

Quote from: nauta on October 31, 2015, 04:45:15 PM

Quote from: Nergal on October 31, 2015, 04:40:01 PM
For what it's worth, we already do #3 as a matter of policy. Staff need to inform the player after leaving a negative note in their account notes.

That's a good policy.  Mine must have slipped through the cracks.

I've had a few that have slipped through the cracks. So far as Account Notes, I just wish there was a process to... I don't know. Appeal? I had a PC once who had subguild tailor, and after a long time he finally decided to buy himself a length of silk and make some nice sleeves. Just to feel special (this was in Tuluk). He was also a pickpocket, but this didn't matter. One day he saw a Legionnaire weapon on the ground (likely from a criminal arrest) so he picked it up, and returned it to a Legionnaire. There's now a "neutral" account note that ends with "I guess this is okay in post-flood Tuluk".

Is it negative? No. Has it kept me from sponsored roles? No, my own actions do that. But this note really doesn't serve much purpose, and when I look at it, it looks like "I stepped in for a moment, had no sense of what was going on, decided to leave a note instead of investigate".

I hate talking with the staff.  Absolutely hate it.  I've been hesitant to post about this because I don't have some constructive idea or criticism to follow with, but most of my breaks from the game have come as a direct consequence of dealing with staff, so it's very apropos.

I don't hate the staff.  I don't have a grudge against the staff.  I think they do a pretty good job, overall.  I don't think I have a bad relationship with staff.  But I hate talking to the staff.

Why?  Staff hold all the power in interactions.  Interactions with staff are far more likely to spiral down into negativity than turn into something positive.  Same old story we've heard a dozen other times. 

But in my opinion this problem is compounded by the bureaucratic system we now have.  All of this account notes, player notes bullshit.  It reminds me of that inescapable, mythical permanent record they used to scare grade school kids with.  Now your every action and communication is reviewed by committee, and saved for later review by a bunch of strangers I couldn't pick out of a crowd.  There are no appeals, and even if there were - in my experience - explaining your side to the staff is about as effective as hitting a brick wall.  The whole system is heartless, and it's getting harder and harder to avoid.

I don't even know how to try and build bridges with the staff any more.  I've offered to volunteer my time for the game and been turned down for stupid bureaucratic stuff.  Submit more reports to the scrutiny of the all-knowing committee judgement?  No thanks.  I'll just try and play and keep my head down.

I don't know of a solution.  Better public relations?  Expiration of old records?  Better volunteer management that isn't tied to specific staff projects?  Require clear-cut constructive objectives for every rejection or negative response?  Maybe the staff could have a bigger out-of-game presence, like a steam group or something?

Old Kank's post is a lot of how I feel.

Personally, I don't know if the staff likes me. I don't know if they dislike me. I've never looked at my account notes and probably never will, because it scares me that their opinion of me will in some way affect my roleplay. I'm just here to play. I don't need many peoples' opinions of it if I'm having fun, but I feel like if the staff didn't like me I think I'd be crushed and paranoid and I'd run away to hide from it.

I don't like the whole idea of a permanent record there and I'm pretty afraid of how it would affect my experience on Armageddon.

I'm not sure what we can do if you hate talking to the staff so much that you stop trying. If you are willing to give it a try, now would be the best time to do it. Things have changed over the years and so have staff members. Maybe you'll have better luck trying again?

Also, no one on staff cares about old negative notes if they don't reflect who you are as a player now. If anything, such notes show the extent to which you've improved as a player - which is a good thing, IMO.

QuoteAlso, no one on staff cares about old negative notes if they don't reflect who you are as a player now. If anything, such notes show the extent to which you've improved as a player - which is a good thing, IMO.

This is true, in my experience.

However, it is also true that a lot of negative notes seem terribly out of context.

I have a note on one of my characters about how my weapon skill was high for how far along into the character I was, and so I was penalized by having blood_loss code added.  However...the reason my piercing weapon skill was high was because I sat in a staff-run lesson on that weapon skill through a buff npc to his minions.  He used teach on me as well, since I was there.  (This was a long time ago, so don't start jumping in on this like 'THIS HAPPENS?!' because it doesn't anymore.  Heh.)  So basically, I was given a boon, then penalized for it, and slapped with a long lasting note about it.

Man... how cool would it be for some Captain NPC or even higher type rank in the Byn, Legion, or Arm to have come along and done that these days... so much communication has been taken out of the game, and taken to an OOC level. I get why, because it's much easier to track and easier to respond to and deal with, but still... it's fun to have the face to face with your bosses, and communication can then actually have a chance to be intercepted by outsiders.

I just thought I'd mention to any "disgruntled" ex-players that Nyr's invitation to contact him is not sincere. You'll get a dismissive one-line response.

Quote from: Nergal on October 31, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
Also, no one on staff cares about old negative notes if they don't reflect who you are as a player now. If anything, such notes show the extent to which you've improved as a player - which is a good thing, IMO.

This is very, very true. A lot of us on staff have negative account notes somewhere in the history of our player accounts. I know it can be annoying to look at and see in the record, and I know you can feel like it's not fair, or was out of context.

But as Nergal pointed out, these notes actually help more than players seem to believe they hurt. If anything, it provides a point of reference against which to justify improvement when it comes time to consider sponsored roles, karma, staff applications, etc.

Quote from: Nergal on October 31, 2015, 07:05:29 PM
I'm not sure what we can do if you hate talking to the staff so much that you stop trying. If you are willing to give it a try, now would be the best time to do it. Things have changed over the years and so have staff members. Maybe you'll have better luck trying again?

Also, no one on staff cares about old negative notes if they don't reflect who you are as a player now. If anything, such notes show the extent to which you've improved as a player - which is a good thing, IMO.

Nergal is pretty chill. I'm like hey this makes sense for these reasons. He's like 'word'. Done.

Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 01, 2015, 03:43:16 AM
Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Hey guys, I use to play this game a few months ago and just stopped so I believe my personal opinion on why I stopped playing would interest you guys.


One big reason is that the documentation isn't really that well written out (no offense). For Example, As a new Player I barely knew anything about the world of Armageddon including things my character should have know already and I felt the reason why is because the documentation on that matter wasn't really that informative(Again I apologize if I offend anyone with this comment)

The second thing I really didn't like.. I always kept getting pushed towards the T'zai Byn and it really didn't fit my characters background...  the clan that I did want to join because it fit my background pretty much kind of shrugged me off and just told me to join the Byn(they realized I was a true noob and to me that seems like they're letting ooc feelings get in the way of that decision).Bottom line, I feel like every clan should be open to true noobs and should just try their best to help that true noob get use to the game the same way the T'zai Byn does.

I hope to try the game out again because even though it was frustrating as a true noob, I did see the beauty in this game and would love to get pass the true noob stage. Also I realize the 2nd thing that frustrated me has nothing to do with the staff but more with the players.

edit: Here's an idea that might seem stupid to you guys but I'd like to say it anyways. I am not entirely sure how many staff are employed by Armageddon or how busy they are but I think if staff checked up on new players every now and then... and if they see that they're alone and are struggling to do anything productive maybe they should intervene somehow and guide that player towards becoming more productive. They could do this in the form of an npc... and they should probably warn the new player that they're a staff member oocily first so he/she doesn't think that he was interacting with another player.

Good post, Trillmendous.

"What you know" is a definite pitfall that can be tricky to address. You want to strike a balance of "informative docs" but not "too much documentation." I read the docs extensively before submitting my first PC, and yet I didn't know you're supposed to bow to templars in Allanak. Nor is "m'lady" an appropriate form of address. And I was playing in Allanak in the first place because the Tuluki docs of those days appeared overwritten and complicated for my tastes.

I recommend the forums or Helper Chat whenever you find yourself confronted with a gap in your knowledge of the game world, but that might not be a practical solution (like if you're in mid conversation).

What kind of information did you find yourself missing, Trillmendous?



As clans go, recruiting newbies largely comes down to what kind of players are currently running the clan. For combat clans, you might still get pushed towards the Byn first for in-game (And possibly OOC) training, which can happen to PCs played by vets or newbs. An elite military clan does not want to be taking in raw recruits when the Byn can do the job of training for them (and often more effectively), after all.  And even then, some clans are just not a good newbie fit. The militias are particularly not advised for newbies because at a relatively low rank you get a lot of coded power and roleplay responsibilities. As a clan leader, you can decline to promote the newbie of course, but then you run the risk of the newbie getting frustrated with his lack of progress. Generally speaking however, I think a newbie who can demonstrate good command of speech and emote code has a decent shot of getting in to any clan. Promotion will come if you can prove yourself a (relatively) mature player who's respectful of the docs and the gameworld.

I do think Staff are keeping an eye on newbies, as much as their time permits. As a militia officer, I vaguely recall being vectored in on a newbie who was 1) playing an elf 2) in a "fancy" tavern 3) who had a weapon drawn and 4) had two noble PCs getting panicked at him. After about a minute I figured the newbie was having trouble with inputting commands, so I just subdued him, dragged him to the nearest alley, and gave what OOC help I could.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 01, 2015, 05:18:31 AM
Good post, Trillmendous.

"What you know" is a definite pitfall that can be tricky to address. You want to strike a balance of "informative docs" but not "too much documentation." I read the docs extensively before submitting my first PC, and yet I didn't know you're supposed to bow to templars in Allanak. Nor is "m'lady" an appropriate form of address. And I was playing in Allanak in the first place because the Tuluki docs of those days appeared overwritten and complicated for my tastes.

I recommend the forums or Helper Chat whenever you find yourself confronted with a gap in your knowledge of the game world, but that might not be a practical solution (like if you're in mid conversation).

What kind of information did you find yourself missing, Trillmendous?



As clans go, recruiting newbies largely comes down to what kind of players are currently running the clan. For combat clans, you might still get pushed towards the Byn first for in-game (And possibly OOC) training, which can happen to PCs played by vets or newbs. An elite military clan does not want to be taking in raw recruits when the Byn can do the job of training for them (and often more effectively), after all.  And even then, some clans are just not a good newbie fit. The militias are particularly not advised for newbies because at a relatively low rank you get a lot of coded power and roleplay responsibilities. As a clan leader, you can decline to promote the newbie of course, but then you run the risk of the newbie getting frustrated with his lack of progress. Generally speaking however, I think a newbie who can demonstrate good command of speech and emote code has a decent shot of getting in to any clan. Promotion will come if you can prove yourself a (relatively) mature player who's respectful of the docs and the gameworld.

I do think Staff are keeping an eye on newbies, as much as their time permits. As a militia officer, I vaguely recall being vectored in on a newbie who was 1) playing an elf 2) in a "fancy" tavern 3) who had a weapon drawn and 4) had two noble PCs getting panicked at him. After about a minute I figured the newbie was having trouble with inputting commands, so I just subdued him, dragged him to the nearest alley, and gave what OOC help I could.

Pretty much the same things you didn't know about like how to interact with a noble or templar or even how to recognize them. I didn't know much about how the city of Tuluki was ran or it's history even after reading it's documentation.  I also didn't really know much about the creatures that existed in the world of armageddon. I'm also sure that theirs still alot of stuff I don't know even now that my future character probably should know. I also understand that this stuff is in the documentation but it's not as clear about most the stuff as it should be.

Thanks for you input on clan.s It was like you said a militia that rejected me.  I personally wouldn't have mind if I happened to be stuck at the basic role because of my experience. It would have been better than joining the T'zai Byn because like I said it didn't really fit my characters background. He was a zealot and a patriot and wanted to do nothing but serve Tuluk and it's nobles. I just think maybe making most clans a bit more friendly to true noobs wouldn't be a bad idea.


Just wondering but are  newbie friendly role calls a thing? I personally think my life would have been so much easier if I did a relatively simple role call instead of building a character from scratch.

This is probably a trivial thing but I think it'd contribute to the "cause" of player retention in its own very small way.

When you send a typo/idea/bug in-game, it obviously gets logged, and when the staff resolves it, it gets listed on the website: Lizzie (3).

But I don't know which three were resolved. I've sent hundreds of those over the years and remember one time they had resolved something like 18 of them in a single week. So I know a whole lot of them are probably years old, maybe duplicated from someone else who bugreped it before I got to it, etc.

What I'd like, is a simple note sent to my e-mail:

Lizzie: Your in-game idea report of September 22, 2010, was resolved.
>[Account: Lizzie sent] Give this Kadian NPC some clothes - he always reboots naked!

It's a sense of closure when I know a specific thing was addressed - even if I don't know what was done about it.

Quote from: Lizzie on November 01, 2015, 07:41:53 AMWhat I'd like, is a simple note sent to my e-mail:

Lizzie: Your in-game idea report of September 22, 2010, was resolved.
>[Account: Lizzie sent] Give this Kadian NPC some clothes - he always reboots naked!

It's a sense of closure when I know a specific thing was addressed - even if I don't know what was done about it.

This is an awesome idea. I would love to see something like this happen!

That would be nice, but it sounds like a lot of work. Would it be a lot of work, staff?

Quote from: The Silence of the Erdlus on November 01, 2015, 09:55:24 AM
That would be nice, but it sounds like a lot of work. Would it be a lot of work, staff?

I don't know -how- it would work, even if it could work.

But if the code allowed it to work similarly to the request tool, it'd be "just" a matter of closing the report. The system would auto-generate the e-mail, just like when the staff closes out request tool requests now. No comment from the staff necessary but they could if they wanted to.

The trick (in my mind) would be to get the in-game report linked to the account/account e-mail/request system.

Does that NPC still do that sometimes? Not to derail hardcore here, but if he does at THIS point, screw it. Just make him, once in a while, streak through the bazaar going, "Iiiiiiii'm NAKED!"" or something. Or if you see him naked, load him up again with something like a trenchcoat, boots, a stuffed animal and a smile.

It's probably fixed, but heh, I'm being a goof.

Trillmendous actually gives an interesting idea. It is indeed a step away from RPI, but with some proper thinking, might still be okey, or perhaps even better then lack of that feature.


I am speaking of pre-made characters. Send out a call to playerbase to write up a shitton of basic chara apps and imbed them into chargen. So if you're karma 0 and are still eligible for 1st hour rez, you get the option of using one of these pre-made characters. You're explained carefully that they're premade and are given an extra option of 'adding/editing' biography/anything about the character. With clear explanation that the basic profiles were designed to be able to fit to as many possible clans, with widest possible options for gameplay, specifically to ease a new player integration.  This will allow the new player to get into the game 'immediately'. Yes, it'll be a pretty one-dimensional character, but let's be honest 90% of all new player characters are one-dimensional. And those who arent, became more interesting 'as they played and learned' not at chargen.

Potentially, it's possible to even use that website that did mismatch of sdesc/mdescs of chara description. I recall seeing it like 4-7 years ago? Dont know what happened to it. But I think it'd be less jarring if playerbase just wrote up dozens of their own and sent them in.

Another possible idea.

Allow players to register their location.  So say I'm playing in the labyrinth. I have the option of going "register labyrinth". Then at chargen (or any time, I guess, it's debatable), prior to chara creation, an account can see Labyrinth:1 player registered. Allanak: 20 players registered, etc.  If my character dies, code could unregister me. If my character moves (and if I care enough), I can 'reregister' myself to whatever new locale I am currently calling my stable place of habitation. If I'm a rogue and I'm concerned enough about how hidden I am, I simply do not register and that's that.

It'll help people who 'prefer' not to play in areas that are devoid of people. And it wont stop people who are experienced in starting in empty areas and then making them awesome enough to entice other recently deaded accounts from chargenning into that area.

So a few ideas from the only other RPI I ever played at (SoI) that I think helped retain players.

1) A mentor flag.  If you set your mentor flag, you would get a system notification that (new player) A tall, dark, handsome fella has entered the world at the Battered Shield.  This would let folks who had their mentor flag set and weren't busy with something else know that they might want to head to the Battered Shield to help this new PC figure out the game world.  The caveat was always there that you should be playing a character the has a reason to help new players and you shouldn't abuse it or your flag would be set to off permanently.  The new player likely has no idea why a short time after commencing a couple folks showed up where they were, they just didn't commence in an empty inn with no idea where to go or what to do.

2) Player modified room edits.  These came pretty late in SoI's lifetime, but players could ask for and be approved to make on the fly edits to a room's description.  Are you and three of your friends out on the Flats digging for salt for a few days / weeks.  Enter a quick room desc change that shows someone was here via tweaking the existing description to show several holes dug in the sand, the smoldering remains of a campfire, and some beetle droppings.  Killed a Mek?  Leave the bones and blood.  If it was something that might have a permanent change effect, submit your new room desc via the request tool and it will either be approved or disapproved, but it was a neat add that let trusted folks occasionally leave a footprint on the world.  Again, abuse would result in the loss of this coded ability and it was generally reserved for PC leaders of groups to further limit the potential for abuse.  Seldom did these changes last past the next boot cycle.

3) Let folks app in Apprentice "x" and Journeyman "x" as a guild choice.  Rather than process skill bumps adding to staff workload, makes this karma based guilds that automatically set your starting guild skill at the appropriate skill level.  Have 1 karma?  You can app in as an Apprentice Merchant.  No staff work needed.  At 3 karma, you can app in as a Journeyman Assassin.  Might eliminate the whole workload around skill bumps, in fact.  Not sure if there is a coded limiter to how many guild choices that would prevent this.

Anyway, the things above definitely kept me playing SoI to the point that I only came over here when the game died.

They all sound good. If there are no elves around, there is arrange for no.2

Quote from: Rokal on November 01, 2015, 03:56:32 AM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 01, 2015, 03:43:16 AM
Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Quote from: Rokal on November 01, 2015, 03:56:32 AM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 01, 2015, 03:43:16 AM
Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Quote from: Rokal on November 01, 2015, 03:56:32 AM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 01, 2015, 03:43:16 AM
Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Quote from: Rokal on November 01, 2015, 03:56:32 AM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 01, 2015, 03:43:16 AM
Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Quote from: Rokal on November 01, 2015, 03:56:32 AM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 01, 2015, 03:43:16 AM
Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Quote from: Rokal on November 01, 2015, 03:56:32 AM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 01, 2015, 03:43:16 AM
Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Quote from: Rokal on November 01, 2015, 03:56:32 AM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 01, 2015, 03:43:16 AM
Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Quote from: Rokal on November 01, 2015, 03:56:32 AM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 01, 2015, 03:43:16 AM
Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Quote from: Rokal on November 01, 2015, 03:56:32 AM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 01, 2015, 03:43:16 AM
Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Quote from: Rokal on November 01, 2015, 03:56:32 AM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 01, 2015, 03:43:16 AM
Staff are generally pretty cool if you act like an adult and not have this weird persecution-martyrdom complex.

Quote from: Trillmendous on November 01, 2015, 05:33:30 AM
Just wondering but are  newbie friendly role calls a thing? I personally think my life would have been so much easier if I did a relatively simple role call instead of building a character from scratch.

I'm not sure if you're asking what I think you're asking, but I do think the idea of spelling out that a given rolecall is suitable for newer players has merit.  (But I don't think you're asking about role calls in the terms that we refer to them as role calls?)  Maybe you could expand a bit on what you mean?

Quote from: Lizzie on November 01, 2015, 07:41:53 AM
(stuff about getting an email when idea/bug/typos get resolved)

The entire system for that is pretty basic, there's so much other stuff with more "oomph" out there waiting for upgrades.  Plus, the signal to noise ratio on bug/idea/typo submissions is pretty bad - a lot of duplicates, things that aren't really bugs, really poorly thought out ideas, truncated submissions (again all commands to the game have a character limit), etc.

Quote from: whitt on November 01, 2015, 01:16:09 PM
2) Player modified room edits.  These came pretty late in SoI's lifetime, but players could ask for and be approved to make on the fly edits to a room's description.  Are you and three of your friends out on the Flats digging for salt for a few days / weeks.  Enter a quick room desc change that shows someone was here via tweaking the existing description to show several holes dug in the sand, the smoldering remains of a campfire, and some beetle droppings.  Killed a Mek?  Leave the bones and blood.  If it was something that might have a permanent change effect, submit your new room desc via the request tool and it will either be approved or disapproved, but it was a neat add that let trusted folks occasionally leave a footprint on the world.  Again, abuse would result in the loss of this coded ability and it was generally reserved for PC leaders of groups to further limit the potential for abuse.  Seldom did these changes last past the next boot cycle.

Tdescs for rooms would be cool.  You can already do this to some extent with the arrange command, just drop a rock and include it in the desc somehow.  Most people do this responsibly.  A few people don't.

Quote from: various people
(stuff about hating to communicate with staff it's like a kick in the gut, I tell ya...and those account notes suck!)

Hey look - I'm on staff, an Admin even, and I have some of those old account notes that are... shall we say, less than pristine.  If you need further evidence that "we" (staff) are capable of looking past old account notes to give someone another shot, I don't know what to tell you.

With regard to other comments about account notes - I think like any system, this one has its pros and cons.  You've pointed out some of the cons, but an in-game method of tracking what is going on with players and PCs is a big pro, too.  If we set a note on someone's ACCOUNT that is negative, they should get an e-mail about it.  If we set a note on someone's PC that is negative, we don't typically send an e-mail.

Quote from: other various people
(stuff about simplifying the application process and starting out for newbies)

This is just a really tough one for a number of reasons.  I'd say that a good 75% of the newbie apps we get require HEAVY revisions to even get them into the game.  We see a lot of Legolas-wannabes, bearded dwarves who forge mithril, seafaring pirates, and the occasional:

sdesc:  the demonic ninja
mdesc:  This man is a demon who has come from other worlds to devour the souls of his enemies.  He will crush and oppress all those who stand in his way....(all on one line, repeated about eleven times because they can't figure out how to use the text editor, heh)

As a matter of course, we do help newbies with edits during the application process a lot - we do a lot of fixing and editing to get them to a "ready to ship" status so they will be viable in the game world.  Sometimes we simply HAVE to reject people because they do something like:
a) Pick a totally inappropriate name - this isn't something we can change, sadly.
b) Show that they completely do not understand what they are getting into and should probably read some documentation before jumping in - a bearded dwarven fisherman with a pet dragon, demonic warriors, etc.
c) It's not clear that this person can speak or write English, at all.

I could have missed it but no one is really saying you shouldn't have account notes.

Yes, you should have them, staff needs them to help them monitor players and behavior. I am just saying you should stop showing them to people. Instead if and when people ask for constructive criticism on their RP  (mostly during karma review I reckon) then these notes can be reviewed privately by staff, along with other feedback and then a more helpful conversation with the player can take place. Something that is lost by just showing these account notes to people as is basically.

Emails on negative account notes can remain as is since its most likely done to stop unwanted behavior in the game.

As an added benefit, it will reduce the work since you don't have to take the time to gather and clean up those notes anymore.  

Quote from: seidhr on November 01, 2015, 09:05:53 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on November 01, 2015, 07:41:53 AM
(stuff about getting an email when idea/bug/typos get resolved)

The entire system for that is pretty basic, there's so much other stuff with more "oomph" out there waiting for upgrades.  Plus, the signal to noise ratio on bug/idea/typo submissions is pretty bad - a lot of duplicates, things that aren't really bugs, really poorly thought out ideas, truncated submissions (again all commands to the game have a character limit), etc.

[snip]

With regard to other comments about account notes - I think like any system, this one has its pros and cons.  You've pointed out some of the cons, but an in-game method of tracking what is going on with players and PCs is a big pro, too.  If we set a note on someone's ACCOUNT that is negative, they should get an e-mail about it.  If we set a note on someone's PC that is negative, we don't typically send an e-mail.

1. Thanks for your input. I guess it would be a lot more spam if every idea/bug/typo closed out with an e-mail to the person who sent it. It's still on my "want" list even though I accept it probably won't ever get implemented.

2. This part about the negative notes on accounts vs. characters explains a lot. I've only received one notification about a bad -account- comment, and yet my overall requested account notes showed a number of less-than-pleasant comments from staff.  Looking back, I'm pretty sure all the other ones were just comments about specific characters. This would be pretty useful information to be included in the account notes helpfile. I don't know if anyone else ever knew that one type got an e-mail and the other did not, intentionally.

Re: Account notes.

We have moved to a system where you only get account notes if you SPECIFICALLY ask to see them. That means everyone can easily go their entire playing career and never see those notes.

The reason we did not move to a system where we didn't share them at all (and it was considered) is that players have said that want transparency. The feeling is that if we have account notes and tell you - no sorry, we are not showing you these administrative notes - then players are going to feel that we're writing things about them unfairly. That we're keeping secrets and so on.

I feel like we're doomed whatever way we go, here.

Quote from: Adhira on November 01, 2015, 09:48:07 PM
Re: Account notes.

We have moved to a system where you only get account notes if you SPECIFICALLY ask to see them. That means everyone can easily go their entire playing career and never see those notes.

The reason we did not move to a system where we didn't share them at all (and it was considered) is that players have said that want transparency. The feeling is that if we have account notes and tell you - no sorry, we are not showing you these administrative notes - then players are going to feel that we're writing things about them unfairly. That we're keeping secrets and so on.

I feel like we're doomed whatever way we go, here.

I wouldn't feel doomed, it's really not that big a deal (at least I don't think it is).  If it goes into my pfile but no one thinks it's important enough to address with me directly, then I'll just assume exactly that: that it wasn't important enough to address with me directly.  I've only asked for account notes twice, I believe, and the second time was actually just hoping for a karma review, before you made it a separate request type. Now that we can do karma reviews, I probably won't have any burning need to request my account notes again.

I'm not one who really gives a damn about transparency anyway. Sometimes - it's better not to know :)

I don't think you are doomed at all. :)

I had no idea about the different types of notes or how they are handled.

A simple way to handle both would be to simply delete them -all- after a period of time, if the player has not shown repeat behavior.  If  the player has shown the same behavior, keep the notes.  I reckon it's easier for everyone, and it would possibly please those who see no need for notes at all.

Quote from: Adhira on November 01, 2015, 09:48:07 PM
Re: Account notes.

We have moved to a system where you only get account notes if you SPECIFICALLY ask to see them. That means everyone can easily go their entire playing career and never see those notes.

The reason we did not move to a system where we didn't share them at all (and it was considered) is that players have said that want transparency. The feeling is that if we have account notes and tell you - no sorry, we are not showing you these administrative notes - then players are going to feel that we're writing things about them unfairly. That we're keeping secrets and so on.

I feel like we're doomed whatever way we go, here.

I won't lie to you. Your reasoning is sound and you are right, this is a possibility. However, I think its a bit moot because regardless of whether you show those account notes or not there are people out there who believe that members of the staff are out there to get them and only them, and plot to ruin their fun anyways. :-\ I feel account notes just makes it worse regardless, because its not even about the negative notes. People have also complained about not getting enough comments on their character. Again this is something that has been common across this game and another game. If you make a lot of notes, some positive, some negative, the negative ones will still stand out. If don't make any notes, some players will think you are ignoring them.

This is why I suggested, that instead of showing those account notes, which can be taken out of context, they are instead reviewed by a staff member upon request. That staff member can then also get feedback from the other staff, and then have an honest conversation with that player on aspects they found that they might want to improve on. This way, you remain transparent, because anything on those account notes that stands out will still be discuss in a more positive environment, but you never risk whatever is in those notes to be taken out of context.  In short, you should just stick to a more in-depth karma review for those that request it.

Again, more serious negative account notes should continue to be discussed immediately through email as you have been doing. And as an added benefit you do less work by not having to prepare those notes, but hopefully build a better and more positive relationship with players by getting a chance to communicate with them more positively about ways they can improve (again only if they ask).

Quote from: Adhira on November 01, 2015, 09:48:07 PM
I feel like we're doomed whatever way we go, here.

Probably, but this Arm, so... appropriate?   ;D

That said, I think what players really crave and that generates karma reviews and account notes request is feedback.  A lot of the time, playing any RPI is like acting to an empty theatre.  You don't know if you're doing well, where you need to improve, or if something has completely jumped off the tracks.  So they request that feedback via the above, not knowing how else to gauge the producers' reaction to the role(s) they've played over the last six months.  Like an actor reading the stage notes on a performance, that feedback is usually terse, primarily because it's not meant to be the yardstick by which performance in a role is judged.  It's spur of the moment note taking.

The problem arises in that there is no audience to read the applause from.  So I'd suggest that short of staff and/or players sending their fellow players more kudos when they see something they like?  You're right.  Folks will continue to try to get that feedback anyway they can and in this case use the wrong measuring stick.

...I see no merit behind keeping them hidden altogether.  I've been able to request them as long as I've been here, even back when they had had to manually 'redact' the names involved.  I'm not sure what is gained by that.

However...I'm also in agreement that this is not a big deal.  I already know how they're used, and even in my 'prime' of negative account notes, I still had no troubles getting things aside from once when it was through a particular staffer.  Another staffer vouched for my recent performance, I got the role anyway.  Sooo...my only reason for talking about it was just to gripe about how some of the negative notes shouldn't have been there in the first place, really.  Out of context.

Really, a lot of this is based around veteran retention more than newbie retention.  A lot of these ideas, a newbie won't even start to wrap their head around in the beginning, I think.  I think the easiest part to focus on is getting newbies in game and knowing things as quickly as possible so they can get comfortable and sink in.  After that, you can try to tackle some of these deep-seated things that seem to have people in a dither.  Those are things where some players are essentially asking for things that either change the game dynamic a great deal, or give the power to alter the game in more-permanent-than-not-permanent ways.

EDIT: Eh, what I posted doesn't really matter.

Quote from: Adhira on November 01, 2015, 09:48:07 PM
Re: Account notes.

We have moved to a system where you only get account notes if you SPECIFICALLY ask to see them. That means everyone can easily go their entire playing career and never see those notes.

The reason we did not move to a system where we didn't share them at all (and it was considered) is that players have said that want transparency. The feeling is that if we have account notes and tell you - no sorry, we are not showing you these administrative notes - then players are going to feel that we're writing things about them unfairly. That we're keeping secrets and so on.

I feel like we're doomed whatever way we go, here.

I remember staff used to let people get voluntarily banned from the game during midterms or the like.

You could always offer the same option for account notes? For people that just can't resist the urge to make account note requests but feel they're too delicate to see them...

That sounds weird when I actually type it out. Is that really what people are asking for?

I like seeing my account notes 'cos I'm curious to see what staff wrote about my weirdo characters.

If there's one thing I wish people would take away from a discussion on account notes, it's that sometimes people feel they're a bigger deal than they really are.

Notes (bad or good) or a lack of notes are not the end of the world. While I'm obviously a flawless paragon of virtue, capable of only good  ;), even staff members sometimes have negative notes on their mortal accounts.

Easy solution, let players leave staff account notes.  Bam.

Nothing could possibly go wrong.

No but really, it's like grades in high school and "your permanent record" nonsense growing up.  Never really makes a difference on what you can do, but everyone makes a big deal about it anyway.  I'm basing this off some epic players who've posted their bad notes over the years.

I don't think any change is necessary apart from maybe being able to appeal a negative note decision, or at least have a chance for players to explain their side of the story? Maybe you can already do that? I've never worried about it. If staff find your reasoning legit, than a small note could be added straight after stating a simple, 'Player explained situation and staff approve', or something obviously better written than my example.

Otherwise, if you want to see your account notes you can, if you can't handle it, then don't look at them. It's pretty simple. I think there's a point where a line needs to be drawn when tiptoeing around people's feelings.

Quote from: whitt on November 01, 2015, 10:13:02 PM
That said, I think what players really crave and that generates karma reviews and account notes request is feedback.  A lot of the time, playing any RPI is like acting to an empty theatre.  You don't know if you're doing well, where you need to improve, or if something has completely jumped off the tracks.  So they request that feedback via the above, not knowing how else to gauge the producers' reaction to the role(s) they've played over the last six months.  Like an actor reading the stage notes on a performance, that feedback is usually terse, primarily because it's not meant to be the yardstick by which performance in a role is judged.  It's spur of the moment note taking.

I suggest if you want feedback on your PC then communicate with your (un)clan ST via report and just ask. Often the producers are asking storytellers and admin how the PC is doing when they need to give feedback anyway, as we're the ones most involved with or monitoring PCs. They don't just go off account notes.

"If you can't handle it, then don't look at them" is a nice sentiment, but misses the point.  I'm not picking up that anyone is sitting with their chin quivering because of mean nasty ugly words that really just don't mean all that much, really, and just don't matter in the big picture. . . or because they misconstrued what was genuinely meant to be constructive feedback.  

I think the disappointment and demotivating aspect of account notes is when you've played a character for, sheesh, years.  RL years.   In a game that supposedly rewards things like longevity and consistency and enriching the game world.   And you nailed it.  I mean, you know you done good.  Kudos have sifted through, you have imm replies to your reports that are encouraging and uplifiting.

But your account notes come in and it is a middle-school slam book entry.  And you're stuck with the realization that, whelp. . . that's their take-away.   Now you can spout T-shirt slogans at folk all day to just toughen up about this.  Another tactic would be to consider it as contributing to the hemorrhage.

"Hwat we've got here is. . . failure to communicate. . ."

(Edit - this is the last I'll say 'bout account notes here, because I think the thread took a derail and I liked how it was going before.  Having said that, if the topic is important enough to generate this much discussion by itself, it probably is a good indicator that it shouldn't be dismissed outright as not being a significant impact - whichever side of the issue you land.)

What is the role of account notes?

Here are two guesses I could come up with:

o A mechanism for staff to track players in order to better enforce the rules.  We now have the report tool.  A one-sentence aphorism, often negative or neutral, viewed from a limited perspective, having gone unchallenged, is probably not the most reliable guide to player behaviour.  If you see something (negative or positive) and you want to take the time to 'note' it, why not just open some communication in the report tool?

o A mechanism for players to receive 'feedback' from staff.  Here, I'm dubious that many people actually wants 'feedback' on their 'roleplay' from staff -- a lot of time people just say that because they want karma.  But even if people do want feedback, the better way to receive it is to ask your clan staff if there are things that you are doing right and things that you are doing wrong.  Notice: feedback isn't just the negatives or areas of improvement -- feedback also includes the positives.  Your clan staff, who is familiar or will familiarize themselves with you, can, as Xalle suggests, actually enter into a dialogue with you about your roleplay, and that strikes me as far better than the karma review process based on crumbs and done by someone who may have never even observed you.

My suggestion would be to just get rid of them -- they don't seem to execute the roles they were designed to execute very well (I could be wrong on the roles).

My alternative suggestion: change the policy so that players get e-mailed / a report is opened in the report tool when an account note gets added, positive or negative or neutral, IG or OOG.

To be a little more on track, I definitely think part of retaining people would be more things they can get involved in. Players have tried weekly card games, betting, coded and uncoded games, anything to keep people coming back but it always fizzles out. Whether the in game rewards aren't good, or people feel its a "waste" when they could be getting dem skillz, I can't say.

But if there were things happening slightly more often? Vennant throwing a yearly party at the Gaj, or a parade down Caravan road. Sometimes I think players get sick of each other and want to experience the world, which we can only do through staff.

Quote from: zanthalandreams on November 02, 2015, 05:41:22 AM
"If you can't handle it, then don't look at them" is a nice sentiment, but misses the point.  I'm not picking up that anyone is sitting with their chin quivering because of mean nasty ugly words that really just don't mean all that much, really, and just don't matter in the big picture. . . or because they misconstrued what was genuinely meant to be constructive feedback.  

I think the disappointment and demotivating aspect of account notes is when you've played a character for, sheesh, years.  RL years.   In a game that supposedly rewards things like longevity and consistency and enriching the game world.   And you nailed it.  I mean, you know you done good.  Kudos have sifted through, you have imm replies to your reports that are encouraging and uplifiting.

But your account notes come in and it is a middle-school slam book entry.  And you're stuck with the realization that, whelp. . . that's their take-away.   Now you can spout T-shirt slogans at folk all day to just toughen up about this.  Another tactic would be to consider it as contributing to the hemorrhage.

"Hwat we've got here is. . . failure to communicate. . ."

(Edit - this is the last I'll say 'bout account notes here, because I think the thread took a derail and I liked how it was going before.  Having said that, if the topic is important enough to generate this much discussion by itself, it probably is a good indicator that it shouldn't be dismissed outright as not being a significant impact - whichever side of the issue you land.)

If staff are communicating to you when they apply negative notes, wouldn't you know in advance? Not to mention that people appreciate different kinds of RP, and most people think they're good roleplayers or on point with a character when they're not necessarily. Why base your sole enjoyment in the game in what random staff think of you (or more correctly, what you think they think of you)?

Some of you guys are really making a mountain out of a molehill about the account notes here.

I would also say that when notes do get added... they are in-general, positive more often than not.  Secondly would be purely neutral in tone, and finally negative in last place.

If you are the kind of player who enters a dark gortok den with no light, then cycles all your weapon types to train blindfighting and all your weapon skills as efficiently as possible, or you go up to a linkdead PC, throw knives at him from the adjacent room, go back into the room with the PC, pick up the knives again, and go back a room away to throw them at them again (and yes, these things really do happen!  and no, we don't encourage it!) then you'll probably get a pinfo about it.  If you do this a lot, your account might be full of notes like this - but it probably won't impact you a whole lot until you try to app for that mul.   ::)

On the other hand, if you're playing a lovable oaf who just can't get anything right and really bring a scene to life, you might get a pinfo that is essentially a staff kudos for doing a great job.

If you're seeking to establish a new criminal element in Red Storm, you might get a pinfo saying as much.

These are all valid uses for account notes.  If you feel that one of your account notes is bogus or misguided, you can always send in a request and ask us to discuss it.  We might even change it if there was a misunderstanding.

If you don't want to engage the staff in communication, you are also free to do that.  I personally feel that's counterproductive, but it's up to you!

Quote from: seidhr on November 02, 2015, 05:09:26 PM
If you don't want to engage the staff in communication, you are also free to do that.  I personally feel that's counterproductive, but it's up to you!

I appreciate you stepping up and trying to clarify some things.  My contribution at least is in the interest of 'brainstorming'.  I haven't asked for an account notes since the new system that separated karma from account notes, but I do find some aspects of account notes discouraging, and one thing that might help retain players, new, middling, and old, is to avoid things that are discouraging.

I guess my worry was that players don't know the pinfo note is there, apparently because policy is to only alert the player if the pinfo note concerns something negative ooc-wise.  As far as I can tell (do correct me if I'm wrong) but the only way to know if there is an account note (positive, negative ic-wise, or neutral) is by asking for your account notes, which I think you are only allowed to do once every six months (again, I could be wrong).  In any case, a player won't be able to engage the staff in communication about the account note at the time because they don't know it's there!

To discover that staff thought you were doing something questionable (and no, we aren't talking about the examples you listed) without opening a line of communication about it is discouraging.  As well, you are missing a golden opportunity to do something encouraging: when you see someone do something neat, open that line of communication, send out that positive note to them.

Quote from: seidhr on November 02, 2015, 05:09:26 PM

If you are the kind of player who enters a dark gortok den with no light, then cycles all your weapon types to train blindfighting and all your weapon skills as efficiently as possible.

....... :(

Seidhr. Much of what you said is common sense and something that unfortunately didn't need to be said in the first place. Most of us understand that, and thats why I'm sure that many of aren't too concerned about what the staff's feeling are on our time in the gortok cave, or what your thoughts are on us bashing that raptor, forgetting to wield our weapon for the hundred time. We are sure if there is a big enough problem we'd hear about it, but otherwise we are happy just playing for our enjoyment. In an ideal world, common sense would reign supreme, but unfortunately it doesn't always. This is one such occasion, where despite whatever you have to say, you will still have people quoting those remarks as the reason they are bitter staff or the game.

There is no right or wrong way to go about this, if staff decide to keep it, I'm sure they do it for good reason, or if they change it, its also for good reason. There are pros and cons with both solutions. However, no matter what you say it won't change the fact that some people will continue to  take those comments way too personally and continue hold grudges over them since we don't live in an ideal world where common sense reigns supreme. :)


Moving away from account notes, I really hope staff do take a look at the grind across the board. The amount of time we spend grinding our skills in this game could have been time better spent RPing or working on plots. The game needs more plots/storylines and a better newbie system but the grind to mediocrity is what drives me away from the game.

If you get a negative ACCOUNT note, you will get an e-mail about it.  If you get a 'questionable' or even 'negative' note on a character, you won't get a note of it until you request your account notes, but it might be brought up if you ask for feedback during regular back and forth with staff via character reporting.  There's times when I've brought stuff up with people that's on their pinfo and I want more information on it or sought clarification and it ended up being totally fine.  Other times players have taken that critique and changed how they do things.

As Adhira mentioned earlier in the thread we're like... damned if we do, damned if we don't.  If we don't divulge the account notes (whose purpose is to be notes to ourselves) we're being secretive.  If we do divulge them we aren't being sensitive enough and whatever else.

Anyway I've got to run, gonna be late to the gym, whoops!

You also have a staff only forum, don't you?  :-* 

sometimes some of you people can be overly sensitive, and by that, I mean you're so overly sensitive that I feel like you're going to take an overly sensitive approach to me telling you that.

I've had the idea in mind for a long time which would essentially be a one-page long sheet including the most bare of basic info and the necessary ten or so commands.

I don't think we have one and if we do, its not immediately visible and glaring in red letters from the main page. The quickstart is something different to me, its how to create a character app mostly.

Quote from: The Silence of the Erdlus on November 02, 2015, 07:17:15 PM
I've had the idea in mind for a long time which would essentially be a one-page long sheet including the most bare of basic info and the necessary ten or so commands.

I don't think we have one and if we do, its not immediately visible and glaring in red letters from the main page. The quickstart is something different to me, its how to create a character app mostly.

I think this could be good, as well as maybe re-writing the intro page (if it hasn't been done before) by adding it in. Maybe even just having a link to the Code Discussions thread about all the neat little things we can do with the code.

Quote from: Nyr on October 27, 2015, 02:29:51 PM
What suggestions do you have for player retention?

1) Poor experiences interacting with staff is why most people I know have quit. If staff, or a specific staffer, comes off as repeatedly arbitrary, dismissive or abrasive...over time, that can wear down a person's desire to have anything to do with a game. This might happen even if most staffers are fine, or even pleasant.

Having some transparency in the staff complaint process might also help. Because it seems that the staff complaint request tool doesn't serve so much to enable conflict resolution, as to pinpoint potential troublemakers and treat them accordingly. No staff complaint request should ever be pre-emptively closed, without even an investigation, while belittling the player who made it, for example. Posts on the GDB shouldn't be deleted simply because a staffer finds them disagreeable. That only encourages people to go elsewhere to have an honest conversation. There's too much of a 'circle the wagons' mentality.

2) The whole staff-player divide is extremely opaque at the moment, and it does not feel like a collaboration at all. The game's grown too bureaucratic. Armageddon has gotten by as long as it has, owing to a mix of lack of competition and nostalgia. That can't go on forever (and it evidently, isn't going to). Maybe the best course at this point, would be just to release the codebase, and let others promulgate it, and do what they will with it, and see which incarnation/management philosophy proves the most attractive.

3) At some point, staff needs to learn that players are more important, than say NPCs, or their own preferred narrative of events. Plenty of people have gotten jaded and fed up with Armageddon, because they were bored of being treated like sex offenders that might molest some meticulous, pre-configured narrative regarding plot or NPCs. Staying vague here for obvious reasons, but when 9 out of 10 of every conflict resolution between NPCs and PCs, ends up being in the NPC/status quo favor, and left with annoyed, confused or upset players...Well. That's just poor STing.

You know, when I was a 12 year old dungeon master, and every time my friends tried to do something, I had some badass NPC appear to show them up, they eventually got tired of playing with me too. Fortunately, I learned that lesson at a young age.

Quote from: seidhr on November 02, 2015, 07:06:35 PM
If you get a negative ACCOUNT note, you will get an e-mail about it.  If you get a 'questionable' or even 'negative' note on a character, you won't get a note of it until you request your account notes, but it might be brought up if you ask for feedback during regular back and forth with staff via character reporting.  There's times when I've brought stuff up with people that's on their pinfo and I want more information on it or sought clarification and it ended up being totally fine.  Other times players have taken that critique and changed how they do things.

As Adhira mentioned earlier in the thread we're like... damned if we do, damned if we don't.  If we don't divulge the account notes (whose purpose is to be notes to ourselves) we're being secretive.  If we do divulge them we aren't being sensitive enough and whatever else.

Anyway I've got to run, gonna be late to the gym, whoops!

For the record, this isn't true. I'm not calling you a liar, but you might be misinformed or viewing events through the rose-colored lenses of your own experiences. I've had horrific things written on my account notes (undeserved, IMO), but which I was given no clue about it, and not even a heads up, and only learned about when I got sent my unedited account notes by accident, once upon a time.

Also. Staff often set account notes without having the whole picture of events. Some 10 years ago, when I was RPing with X-D's fire mage, we had several scenes where my Bynner was in abject terror of him. Finally, after seeing him throw up a fire wall for the 20th time, I was less fazed about it. But that's the one encounter a staffer saw, and that's where I got my first bad account note. And I didn't even find out about it for years. I never got a helpful line dropped telling me to be more afraid of magic. Just a snarky one liner that sat there for years.

There are other examples, but I'm sticking to one a decade old.

Quote from: Clearsighted on November 02, 2015, 11:26:57 PM
For the record, this isn't true. I'm not calling you a liar, but you might be misinformed or viewing events through the rose-colored lenses of your own experiences. I've had horrific things written on my account notes (undeserved, IMO), but which I was given no clue about it, and not even a heads up, and only learned about when I got sent my unedited account notes by accident, once upon a time.

Also. Staff often set account notes without having the whole picture of events. Some 10 years ago, when I was RPing with X-D's fire mage, we had several scenes where my Bynner was in abject terror of him. Finally, after seeing him throw up a fire wall for the 20th time, I was less fazed about it. But that's the one encounter a staffer saw, and that's where I got my first bad account note. And I didn't even find out about it for years. I never got a helpful line dropped telling me to be more afraid of magic. Just a snarky one liner that sat there for years.

There are other examples, but I'm sticking to one a decade old.

I'm not saying how things were ten years ago, as I wasn't on staff then.  I'm saying how they are now, and they are as I've described them.  I know this because I'm on staff.

I'm looking at your account notes right now, and there's nothing "horrific" in them whatsoever, so I'm not sure what you're talking about - I do see the one about the fire walls.  That was in 2008 and was written by one staffer who is long gone.

But those were the good old days, back when things were grand and the game was better and not ran by a bunch of sadomasochists - am I right?  Please.  Your facts are wrong and your logic is flawed.

Quote from: seidhr on November 03, 2015, 12:10:27 AM
But those were the good old days, back when things were grand and the game was better and not ran by a bunch of sadomasochists - am I right?  Please.  Your facts are wrong and your logic is flawed.

Ouch. This is... really biting.

Quote from: seidhr on November 03, 2015, 12:10:27 AM

Quote from: Clearsighted on November 02, 2015, 11:26:57 PM
For the record, this isn't true. I'm not calling you a liar, but you might be misinformed or viewing events through the rose-colored lenses of your own experiences. I've had horrific things written on my account notes (undeserved, IMO), but which I was given no clue about it, and not even a heads up, and only learned about when I got sent my unedited account notes by accident, once upon a time.

Also. Staff often set account notes without having the whole picture of events. Some 10 years ago, when I was RPing with X-D's fire mage, we had several scenes where my Bynner was in abject terror of him. Finally, after seeing him throw up a fire wall for the 20th time, I was less fazed about it. But that's the one encounter a staffer saw, and that's where I got my first bad account note. And I didn't even find out about it for years. I never got a helpful line dropped telling me to be more afraid of magic. Just a snarky one liner that sat there for years.

There are other examples, but I'm sticking to one a decade old.

I'm not saying how things were ten years ago, as I wasn't on staff then.  I'm saying how they are now, and they are as I've described them.  I know this because I'm on staff.

I'm looking at your account notes right now, and there's nothing "horrific" in them whatsoever, so I'm not sure what you're talking about - I do see the one about the fire walls.  That was in 2008 and was written by one staffer who is long gone.

But those were the good old days, back when things were grand and the game was better and not ran by a bunch of sadomasochists - am I right?  Please.  Your facts are wrong and your logic is flawed.

I was referring to the one set by Olgaris. If it's gone now, that's news to me, because I brought it up in the past and was basically just told 'Sorry, you shouldn't have seen that'. Hell, X-D backed me up on the fire mage thing, and that's still there, so I can only assume the Olgaris one is too. Or more likely, staff just didn't care enough to get it right to even make a query to X-D. It was easier for them to just leave it there as a black mark, rather than get it right.

Point being. Until people can check their account notes at will, and they don't need to be edited and made 'safe' to see, then that distrust or apprehension will linger. Nothing should be written about a player in their notes, that staff isn't comfortable with that player seeing. Because staff can get things wrong too, and it's quite possible to make someone feel blacklisted when they haven't deserved it. If everything is there for all to see, there is a much greater urgency for it to be accountable and 100% legit, and not just on a whim.

I haven't even requested to see my account notes in five+ years because the incident with Olgaris proved to me, that the things I should probably really worry about, would be concealed. Is that right or wrong? I don't know. But it allowed me to move forward.

Not everything can be handwaved as 'that was the bad old days'.

Well, in the bad old days, staff was rude to people, and mistreated them. And that happens these days too. So from what I've seen, although various staffers come and go, and some are nicer and more considerate than others, there are plenty of remnants from the past who seem to act the same as they always have. This isn't the place to raise up old and specific cases, but I've seen instances of abuse quite recently that could've happened in 2008 too. There were good staff back then, and there's good staff now. But it only takes one or two bad apples to turn someone off from logging in anymore.

Hmm, no the thing about the krathi is from another staffer.  Olgaris is gone too, incidentally - since 2010.

If you'd like more specifics you can certainly send in a request about it.  :)  You may not like the request system, but it's how we do business and the offer is there.

Quote from: seidhr on November 03, 2015, 01:38:56 AM
Hmm, no the thing about the krathi is from another staffer.  Olgaris is gone too, incidentally - since 2010.

If you'd like more specifics you can certainly send in a request about it.  :)  You may not like the request system, but it's how we do business and the offer is there.

I wasn't suggesting that Olgaris made the krathi note. He made another note about what he thought of my clan leadership. And I've brought that to Adhira's attention long ago (and was brushed off). I'm past it. I've also contacted staff several times over the years about the demonstrably false krathi note still being there, and if it's still there, after all this time...really, what is the point? It's why I don't request account notes anymore. I'm not alone in this mentality.

But this isn't about me. It's about my contention that the current account notes system makes relations between staff and players less transparent and less trusting than they could be. If people can check what's being written about them, then there will be an impetus to making sure what goes down there is directly relevant and truthful.

If you think relations are transparent and trusting enough as they stand, and that it's not causing anyone to stop playing, then obviously, you will disagree with me.

Armageddon is all about player accountability. But staff accountability is almost always behind an opaque veil of 'just trust us guys'. When you get burned enough times that stops being sufficient.

Some people are going to be completely paranoid and feel persecuted no matter what you do.

I wish staff would spend less time trying to help those people unfuck themselves and spent more time animating. That's what people want, right? Animation and things in game and not therapy?

I think some people are of the mindset that everything and everyone is awful and will twist almost any scenario to reinforce their own bias.

I don't think there's a lot we can do to change the minds of people who think like that and while I can't speak for other staff, I personally don't care all that much to try. Easily the biggest 'negative' of staffing is reading the staggering amounts of mind-blowingly toxic vitriol some people direct at us.

I would rather spend my time adding neat things to the game, helping the players in my clans do fun stuff, animating for/helping newbies, or just playing the game than subject myself to reasoning with people who are so determined to lay on the soul-crushing hatred, often without all the facts and often in spite of the reality of a situation.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 03, 2015, 01:46:47 AM
Some people are going to be completely paranoid and feel persecuted no matter what you do.

I wish staff would spend less time trying to help those people unfuck themselves and spent more time animating. That's what people want, right? Animation and things in game and not therapy?

You know what makes someone feel paranoid? Getting a shitty account note that is either 1) Clearly and provably false, or 2) Extremely hostile, and being told you shouldn't have seen it.

You know an easy way to stop those kind of toxic, distrust-inducing events? Having a transparent account notes system that doesn't require so much editing and preparation for your consumption, that it's only requestable once every six months.

You'll forgive me, if by virtue of your past posting behavior, I assumed the 'paranoid' remark was aimed at me. Since it usually is with you, Skeelz.

Quote from: Mordiggian on November 03, 2015, 01:53:27 AM
I think some people are of the mindset that everything and everyone is awful and will twist almost any scenario to reinforce their own bias.

I don't think there's a lot we can do to change the minds of people who think like that and while I can't speak for other staff, I personally don't care all that much to try. Easily the biggest 'negative' of staffing is reading the staggering amounts of mind-blowingly toxic vitriol some people direct at us.

I would rather spend my time adding neat things to the game, helping the players in my clans do fun stuff, animating for/helping newbies, or just playing the game than subject myself to reasoning with people who are so determined to lay on the soul-crushing hatred, often without all the facts and often in spite of the reality of a situation.

You say this as if no one like that has EVER staffed for Armageddon in the past, and all of the negativity comes from the playerbase, who are all completely unreasonable in being jaded. Armageddon staff basically have to choose between either more transparency and less opacity in their processes, or just continue the same 'circle the wagons' mentality that everyone is out to get them.

Quoteanimating for/helping newbies

Just so you know...the thing that got me grabbed by this game was when some staffer decided to animate a bartender and chat with me, then vouch for me from a templar who was harassing me because the first thing I did when I entered the game was 'backstab slave' (I came from a hack and slash).

I promptly went to all my OOC contacts screaming 'EVEN THE BARTENDERS IN THIS GAME ARE PLAYED BY PEOPLE THIS IS AWESOME.'

So good on you.

And Clearsighted...I'd like to post my notes to you.  But they're pretty bad.  And they discuss it in the notes.  I've still never been turned down for a role, and they talk about that in them too.  It's...less restrictive than you think, I think.

Edited to add:  And while it can be irritating that things are placed there without context...at the same time, when they are not serving as much of a barrier when you are, earnestly, just trying to enjoy yourself in the game...it's not a 'meh' that is submissive or cowing to staff as some like to assert.  It's actually learning to not care because...no one really does, except some people who took it way too personally.  That's staff included.  I think it's a guideline, not something where they suddenly stiffen up when they see a bad note and go 'Ohhhhhh, THIS GUY IS A TWINK FUCK THIS GUY'.  I dunno.  I feel like you have to openly put yourself on the other side of the line from staff, a line that doesn't really have to exist, to start being regarded as 'I'm not sure I trust this guy.'

Quote from: Armaddict on November 03, 2015, 01:57:01 AM
And Clearsighted...I'd like to post my notes to you.  But they're pretty bad.  And they discuss it in the notes.  I've still never been turned down for a role, and they talk about that in them too.  It's...less restrictive than you think, I think.

I don't care about the content of the notes. If I fucked up, fine. Tell me. I'll try to not fuck up again.

What I care about is that often times account notes are incorrectly made. And they're just left there. They're left there even when the issue of their falseness is raised multiple times with corroborating evidence. I'm far from the only person that has received a negative note because a staffer only saw a fraction of the overall situation.

I am also against the fact that some account notes are edited out, so that players aren't allowed to read them.

That's it. Making the account note process more transparent would increase my trust in staff and decrease my suspicions. I think my past (and recent) experiences make that mindset quite reasonable. But apparently, I can go fuck myself as a paranoid freak out of touch with reality, twisting everything that staff says and seething with vitriol and hatred.

...I wasn't telling you to go fuck yourself.

I was trying to say I don't think it's as big a deal as I think it seems to a lot of people.  That's all.  Honestly, I've never tried to appeal to have notes removed, because...again, they weren't standing in the way of anything.  Sorry to try and reassure you.

Quote from: Clearsighted on November 03, 2015, 02:01:58 AM
That's it. Making the account note process more transparent would increase my trust in staff and decrease my suspicions. I think my past (and recent) experiences make that mindset quite reasonable. But apparently, I can go fuck myself as a paranoid freak out of touch with reality, twisting everything that staff says and seething with vitriol and hatred.

That's not really what I said and I wasn't really referring to you but it is a good example of the attitude I'm talking about.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 03, 2015, 02:08:58 AM
...I wasn't telling you to go fuck yourself.

I was trying to say I don't think it's as big a deal as I think it seems to a lot of people.  That's all.  Honestly, I've never tried to appeal to have notes removed, because...again, they weren't standing in the way of anything.  Sorry to try and reassure you.

It was tongue in cheek, and not directed at you.

Quote from: Mordiggian on November 03, 2015, 02:11:47 AM

Quote from: Clearsighted on November 03, 2015, 02:01:58 AM
That's it. Making the account note process more transparent would increase my trust in staff and decrease my suspicions. I think my past (and recent) experiences make that mindset quite reasonable. But apparently, I can go fuck myself as a paranoid freak out of touch with reality, twisting everything that staff says and seething with vitriol and hatred.

That's not really what I said and I wasn't really referring to you but it is a good example of the attitude I'm talking about.

It is really what you said. And you were referring to me. But if you claim otherwise, then I'll just agree to pretend your posting right then (as you have in the past) was a coincidence.

We don't really have time or the energy to hate anyone playing the game or pass on vitriol. We have disagreements sure, but we typically just pass it along to someone else if it's becoming an issue. It's a game where we pretend to be elves and chop mothafuckas up with bone swoodz. I think there was a different time in the game where Staff was a little bit less...Controlled, polite, tactful, etc. But we do try our best to be as positive as possible with people.

Account notes (when bad) need to be sent to a player, now. So there's no more shocking surprises when you ask for account notes. If there's discrepancies, let us know, and we will get in touch with the people who made the notes and remind them of this procedure.

We are also trying to figure out a good way of getting in touch when we make good notes too. There's some discussion about this Staffside, currently.

Quote from: Eurynomos on November 03, 2015, 02:22:17 AM
We don't really have time or the energy to hate anyone playing the game or pass on vitriol. We have disagreements sure, but we typically just pass it along to someone else if it's becoming an issue. It's a game where we pretend to be elves and chop mothafuckas up with bone swoodz. I think there was a different time in the game where Staff was a little bit less...Controlled, polite, tactful, etc. But we do try our best to be as positive as possible with people.

There are some staff that are still around from that time when they were less 'controlled, polite and tactful', and they still behave the exact same way now as they did then, and which serves to reopen old wounds from time to time.

For what it's worth, the new staffers, and especially at the storyteller level, are a higher quality bunch. My personal opinion is that it's because most of them were players in that previous era, and having stuck with Armageddon this long, they're just naturally more sensitive to certain facets of the staff-player interplay.

But then, that's the nature of threads like these. Almost without exception, the staffers reading it and responding to it (or caring about what's being posted in there) are almost always the ones that it doesn't really apply to.

Quote from: Eurynomos on November 03, 2015, 02:22:17 AM
Account notes (when bad) need to be sent to a player, now. So there's no more shocking surprises when you ask for account notes. If there's discrepancies, let us know, and we will get in touch with the people who made the notes and remind them of this procedure.

Just as a point of clarification: I think seidhr has said a few times that whereas negative ACCOUNT notes do get automatically sent to the player, negative CHARACTER notes do not.  

It's not really a doomed or damned if you do, doomed or damned if you don't situation, it's just a kind of weird process thing: we can see them, but only after we request an account notes (which has a lag of up to six months and generates paperwork).  Wouldn't everyone prosper from having the character notes sent out when they get written?  I at least don't think staff would intentionally put down a dubious note, but granted the limitation in characters, and the distance that time brings, those notes are going to be awfully easy to misinterpret.

And this is really promising:

Quote
We are also trying to figure out a good way of getting in touch when we make good notes too. There's some discussion about this Staffside, currently.

I'm going to post this as a reminder.   This here is what folk have been breaking their silent exodus to answer.  The question is a good one.  Hell, I'd even say it is a brave one.  This isn't just a random place for folks to post about why they hate the game.  These are answers to a very specific question fielded by someone I get the impression folk have been waiting to ask just that sort of question.  

Quote from: Nyr on October 28, 2015, 09:04:08 AM
What does that player want?

And in answering it, folk are going to indicate a certain level of unhappiness about what they've slogged through.  This can be interpreted - and seems to be - as just complaining or whining or attacking.   At which point, most folk are going to read the replies.  Know that the status quo is being maintained, consider the original question likely to be rhetorical, and go back to not doing what they weren't doing before.  

Another way to look at it is as customer feedback.   Think that, you know, maybe I disagree with you. . or thank goodness that isn't the way things are now . . but here's how we are doing this better.  

But then I read a response like this:  

Quote from: Mordiggian on November 03, 2015, 01:53:27 AM
I think some people are of the mindset that everything and everyone is awful and will twist almost any scenario to reinforce their own bias.

I don't think there's a lot we can do to change the minds of people who think like that and while I can't speak for other staff, I personally don't care all that much to try. Easily the biggest 'negative' of staffing is reading the staggering amounts of mind-blowingly toxic vitriol some people direct at us.

I would rather spend my time adding neat things to the game, helping the players in my clans do fun stuff, animating for/helping newbies, or just playing the game than subject myself to reasoning with people who are so determined to lay on the soul-crushing hatred, often without all the facts and often in spite of the reality of a situation.

And I think, well, if that's all they're hearing from this then it is a wasted effort.   I don't know Mordiggian, didn't even know M. was an Imm.   But when you post as an Imm you are, in ways, speaking for all staff.   While there's a Them perception, Them is all of Them.   Which, I guess, is another reason to be particular about which of your management staff you allow in front of the cameras in case they start saying things contrary to the message trying to be sent by the company.

There's a whole GDB devoted to the adoration of the way things are, have always been, or just giddy praises from the folk who aren't represented in the fading number of logins or the silent veteran walk-outs.  I know you guys disagree with a lot of what you'll read here because, well, none of it applies to you yet.  Keep posting, but don't be offended if you read something here that hasn't been your experience, wasn't your fault, or that you disagree with.   The thread isn't about listing all the great reasons we're currently retaining all of our veteran players and pulling back in folks who walked away.  


One last edit this morning before I head off to work:

When my wife is pissed at me, the worst thing I can do is try to minimize why she is angry.  Doesn't really matter, in the moment, if I believe she is being rational or if she has all the facts or if she's just holding on to something stupid I did back in 2004.  I have two options:  escalate or deescalate.   Now sometimes, it is a hill I need to die on.  If so, then I'm prepared to face the consequences of that decision.   If reconciliation is the goal, though, I try to remember that perception is reality and nobody will win if you start arguing about the accuracy of another's perception instead of how to change that perception so that everyone is seeing closer to the same thing.   

Okay, someone else can have the mic for a bit.

We've been doing our best to turn things around for the players that have walked away unhappy, frustrated, or bored... but still have an eye on someday returning to the game, if only X or Y happened. But there also has to be a point where these players meet us halfway and understand that the past is in the past, and give the current team some benefit of the doubt. Things like old account notes don't matter to us. They were made by former staff members with different guidelines. As an extreme example, some older accounts have notes from the 90s and early 2000s about being banned for bad RP. We don't do that anymore - we reach out instead.

In more recent years we've established guidelines on how to treat players fairly. In more recent times there's been a greater consensus among staff on how to communicate with players, which is something that is still developing. But most importantly, we're working on developing the game at large, and I think players will be pleased at what comes in the coming months. The ideas featured in this thread and the closely-related skill thread generated a lot of discussion staff-side, and hopefully, a means to move forward.

I don't disagree with that at all.   This thread is a concrete example of that.   If you want to make another thread asking "What have we done that is making you decide to come back and play again?" then I bet you'll read those answers and feel a lot more warm and fuzzy after.  Hopefully I'm not the only one seeing the parallel here about not liking what you asked to read in the first place.

Here's a question - if they don't matter to the staff, and they've changed in recent years . . . but old negatives lingering like graffiti are being listed as one of the reasons for folk leaving, what could be done about that?   

Quote from: Mordiggian on November 03, 2015, 01:53:27 AM
I think some people are of the mindset that everything and everyone is awful and will twist almost any scenario to reinforce their own bias.

I don't think there's a lot we can do to change the minds of people who think like that and while I can't speak for other staff, I personally don't care all that much to try. Easily the biggest 'negative' of staffing is reading the staggering amounts of mind-blowingly toxic vitriol some people direct at us.

I would rather spend my time adding neat things to the game, helping the players in my clans do fun stuff, animating for/helping newbies, or just playing the game than subject myself to reasoning with people who are so determined to lay on the soul-crushing hatred, often without all the facts and often in spite of the reality of a situation.

What I'm getting from you, is that you're really creative and really supportive and really sensitive.  Which isn't a bad way to be.

Not everyone can do customer service.  Not everyone who can do customer service can deal with every single customer.

Maybe, if you feel this way, then find the (minority?) of players you can work well with, and be there for those players?  It's a mistake to try to be everything to everyone.  Focus on what you can do well?

Quote from: zanthalandreams on November 03, 2015, 06:37:24 AM
I don't disagree with that at all.   This thread is a concrete example of that.   If you want to make another thread asking "What have we done that is making you decide to come back and play again?" then I bet you'll read those answers and feel a lot more warm and fuzzy after.  Hopefully I'm not the only one seeing the parallel here about not liking what you asked to read in the first place.

Here's a question - if they don't matter to the staff, and they've changed in recent years . . . but old negatives lingering like graffiti are being listed as one of the reasons for folk leaving, what could be done about that?   

To be honest I don't really know. There isn't a way to delete the graffiti that are bad account notes, as far as I can tell. Only "paint over" it by adding new notes. I can tell you that I will make it a point to add a new note whenever I see someone's old notes don't really apply to them anymore, to make this fact less implicit.

Quote from: Nergal on November 03, 2015, 06:45:53 AM

Quote from: zanthalandreams on November 03, 2015, 06:37:24 AM
I don't disagree with that at all.   This thread is a concrete example of that.   If you want to make another thread asking "What have we done that is making you decide to come back and play again?" then I bet you'll read those answers and feel a lot more warm and fuzzy after.  Hopefully I'm not the only one seeing the parallel here about not liking what you asked to read in the first place.

Here's a question - if they don't matter to the staff, and they've changed in recent years . . . but old negatives lingering like graffiti are being listed as one of the reasons for folk leaving, what could be done about that?   

To be honest I don't really know. There isn't a way to delete the graffiti that are bad account notes, as far as I can tell. Only "paint over" it by adding new notes. I can tell you that I will make it a point to add a new note whenever I see someone's old notes don't really apply to them anymore, to make this fact less implicit.

I think this post right here addresses the "problem" of past account notes.

I think players think that when they receive edited notes, it's because the actual pfile was edited. It wasn't. Every single note that was appended to that file is still there. It's copied/pasted to another file and you get to see the edited version.

There exists no way to delete notes from the pfile itself, only from the copy.

So for those who are complaining about a note that was written in 2010 by a staffer who isn't on staff anymore, let it go, really. There's nothing anyone can do about it. The grafitti is up, it's there, and unless you want a full pfile wipe (which includes your current character, list of previous characters, the entire history of your account's existence in the game), it will remain an unimportant notch on your file that the current staff doesn't care about.

If it offends you, ask them to add ANOTHER note right under that note, reminding them to omit the comment the next time you ask for your account notes. It'll still be there, but you won't have to see it anymore.

Quote from: Lizzie on November 03, 2015, 07:10:25 AM
let it go, really.

Well, they have been.  Letting go.   Just not of what we want them to let go of.  They're letting go of the game.  Maybe the process of account notes itself is flawed?  Perhaps it is not a good idea to allow a dynamic and imperfect admin staff (humans being what we are) an outlet for anonymous slam graffiti?

Throw them out.  Can't delete them, but maybe consider them a relic of past practices and simply let them go.   Rely on other, more constructive, ways of managing feedback.  

Quote from: zanthalandreams on November 03, 2015, 07:19:05 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on November 03, 2015, 07:10:25 AM
let it go, really.

Well, they have been.  Letting go.   Just not of what we want them to let go of.  They're letting go of the game.  Maybe the process of account notes itself is flawed?  Perhaps it is not a good idea to allow a dynamic and imperfect admin staff (humans being what we are) an outlet for anonymous slam graffiti?

Throw them out.  Can't delete them, but maybe consider them a relic of past practices and simply let them go.   Rely on other, more constructive, ways of managing feedback.  

That would require a pwipe. Your entire history of playing, including all your karma, proof that you CAN do a good job and deserve special character roles, your past characters' bios, stats, your current character's info (including the character itself), all gone. Everyone starts over at zero. I mean that's all well and good, but how about people who have taken years to earn the karma they have, and the trust from PAST staffers to play special roles, which were commented on positively in their no-longer-existent pfile, so that current and future staffers can know that this player is top-notch and will do justice to anything you throw at them?

I'm not interested in a pwipe for my account, and in fact I'd be pretty pissed off as a veteran player whose taken years to earn the karma I have now, if someone said "hey - all that work you did? It's time to start from scratch again because we're deleting everyone's accounts!"

Quote from: Lizzie on November 03, 2015, 07:27:51 AM

Quote from: zanthalandreams on November 03, 2015, 07:19:05 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on November 03, 2015, 07:10:25 AM
let it go, really.

Well, they have been.  Letting go.   Just not of what we want them to let go of.  They're letting go of the game.  Maybe the process of account notes itself is flawed?  Perhaps it is not a good idea to allow a dynamic and imperfect admin staff (humans being what we are) an outlet for anonymous slam graffiti?

Throw them out.  Can't delete them, but maybe consider them a relic of past practices and simply let them go.   Rely on other, more constructive, ways of managing feedback.   

That would require a pwipe. Your entire history of playing, including all your karma, proof that you CAN do a good job and deserve special character roles, your past characters' bios, stats, your current character's info (including the character itself), all gone. Everyone starts over at zero. I mean that's all well and good, but how about people who have taken years to earn the karma they have, and the trust from PAST staffers to play special roles, which were commented on positively in their no-longer-existent pfile, so that current and future staffers can know that this player is top-notch and will do justice to anything you throw at them?

I'm not interested in a pwipe for my account, and in fact I'd be pretty pissed off as a veteran player whose taken years to earn the karma I have now, if someone said "hey - all that work you did? It's time to start from scratch again because we're deleting everyone's accounts!"

I think he means a new system of handling player notes entirely, and letting the current method fade into obscurity.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 03, 2015, 07:31:35 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on November 03, 2015, 07:27:51 AM

Quote from: zanthalandreams on November 03, 2015, 07:19:05 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on November 03, 2015, 07:10:25 AM
let it go, really.

Well, they have been.  Letting go.   Just not of what we want them to let go of.  They're letting go of the game.  Maybe the process of account notes itself is flawed?  Perhaps it is not a good idea to allow a dynamic and imperfect admin staff (humans being what we are) an outlet for anonymous slam graffiti?

Throw them out.  Can't delete them, but maybe consider them a relic of past practices and simply let them go.   Rely on other, more constructive, ways of managing feedback.   

That would require a pwipe. Your entire history of playing, including all your karma, proof that you CAN do a good job and deserve special character roles, your past characters' bios, stats, your current character's info (including the character itself), all gone. Everyone starts over at zero. I mean that's all well and good, but how about people who have taken years to earn the karma they have, and the trust from PAST staffers to play special roles, which were commented on positively in their no-longer-existent pfile, so that current and future staffers can know that this player is top-notch and will do justice to anything you throw at them?

I'm not interested in a pwipe for my account, and in fact I'd be pretty pissed off as a veteran player whose taken years to earn the karma I have now, if someone said "hey - all that work you did? It's time to start from scratch again because we're deleting everyone's accounts!"

I think he means a new system of handling player notes entirely, and letting the current method fade into obscurity.

Oh. I think that'd be great. But it doesn't address the concern that those notes still exist. The players who are having trouble with negative notes are saying they want the old ones expunged. It isn't possible without a pwipe.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 03, 2015, 07:31:35 AM
I think he means a new system of handling player notes entirely, and letting the current method fade into obscurity.

Yep.   I wouldn't like a pwipe for the same reasons, Liz.  The slope doesn't have to be that slippery.

Quote from: Lizzie on November 03, 2015, 07:34:52 AM

Quote from: Qzzrbl on November 03, 2015, 07:31:35 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on November 03, 2015, 07:27:51 AM

Quote from: zanthalandreams on November 03, 2015, 07:19:05 AM

Quote from: Lizzie on November 03, 2015, 07:10:25 AM
let it go, really.

Well, they have been.  Letting go.   Just not of what we want them to let go of.  They're letting go of the game.  Maybe the process of account notes itself is flawed?  Perhaps it is not a good idea to allow a dynamic and imperfect admin staff (humans being what we are) an outlet for anonymous slam graffiti?

Throw them out.  Can't delete them, but maybe consider them a relic of past practices and simply let them go.   Rely on other, more constructive, ways of managing feedback.   

That would require a pwipe. Your entire history of playing, including all your karma, proof that you CAN do a good job and deserve special character roles, your past characters' bios, stats, your current character's info (including the character itself), all gone. Everyone starts over at zero. I mean that's all well and good, but how about people who have taken years to earn the karma they have, and the trust from PAST staffers to play special roles, which were commented on positively in their no-longer-existent pfile, so that current and future staffers can know that this player is top-notch and will do justice to anything you throw at them?

I'm not interested in a pwipe for my account, and in fact I'd be pretty pissed off as a veteran player whose taken years to earn the karma I have now, if someone said "hey - all that work you did? It's time to start from scratch again because we're deleting everyone's accounts!"

I think he means a new system of handling player notes entirely, and letting the current method fade into obscurity.

Oh. I think that'd be great. But it doesn't address the concern that those notes still exist. The players who are having trouble with negative notes are saying they want the old ones expunged. It isn't possible without a pwipe.

Out of sight, out of mind.

Quote from: nauta on November 03, 2015, 05:44:14 AM
Wouldn't everyone prosper from having the character notes sent out when they get written?  I at least don't think staff would intentionally put down a dubious note, but granted the limitation in characters, and the distance that time brings, those notes are going to be awfully easy to misinterpret.

I have no idea if the coders would be able to do this or how much work would be involved, where it would fall in terms of priorities, etc but-

While we as staff would still need to be able to add notes players should not see such as:
i3: Pal'ing around with Dexter. Doesn't know he's secretly the infamous serial killer of Allanak.

Maybe some code could be devised so that we can toggle whether the note we're adding is secret or not, and if it's not it gets emailed to the player's account email automatically showing them what was added.

I'll bring it up on the staff boards for discussion.

Quote from: Jave on November 03, 2015, 09:08:47 AM

Quote from: nauta on November 03, 2015, 05:44:14 AM
Wouldn't everyone prosper from having the character notes sent out when they get written?  I at least don't think staff would intentionally put down a dubious note, but granted the limitation in characters, and the distance that time brings, those notes are going to be awfully easy to misinterpret.

I have no idea if the coders would be able to do this or how much work would be involved, where it would fall in terms of priorities, etc but-

While we as staff would still need to be able to add notes players should not see such as:

Code Select Expand

i3: Pal'ing around with Dexter. Doesn't know he's secretly the infamous serial killer of Allanak.

Maybe some code could be devised so that we can toggle whether the note we're adding is secret or not, and if it's not it gets emailed to the player's account email automatically showing them what was added.

I'll bring it up on the staff boards for discussion.

I'd like that actually. I like reading account notes because I like feedback, whether I'm doing something wrong or not, it's always better for me to know. If a note gets added to the account, I'd love to know it without using the account notes request.

I'll reiterate that negative account notes (when added) require the Staff member who added it to get in touch with the player of make it known via an open request.

We'd like to do something similar with good account notes. We are trying to devise a very simple method that doesn't create a bog of request tool work. I'll personally promise a resolution to it :)

Quote from: Eurynomos on November 03, 2015, 10:27:36 AM
I'll reiterate that negative account notes (when added) require the Staff member who added it to get in touch with the player of make it known via an open request.

We'd like to do something similar with good account notes. We are trying to devise a very simple method that doesn't create a bog of request tool work. I'll personally promise a resolution to it :)

My account notes aren't stellar. I'm pretty sure I have one from where I intentionally tried to attack Halaster's avatar back in the day when he came down to reprimand me for shouting OOC for someone to save me.

That really happened....

I've never had it hold me back a single time.

Quote from: Eurynomos on November 03, 2015, 10:27:36 AM
I'll reiterate that negative account notes (when added) require the Staff member who added it to get in touch with the player of make it known via an open request.

I'd be a big fan of this rule if it was more consistently enforced.

Quote from: Eurynomos on November 03, 2015, 10:27:36 AM
I'll reiterate that negative account notes (when added) require the Staff member who added it to get in touch with the player of make it known via an open request.

We'd like to do something similar with good account notes. We are trying to devise a very simple method that doesn't create a bog of request tool work. I'll personally promise a resolution to it :)

That's great!  It's really promising to see this sort of thing, staff engagement, and so on.  From what I can tell there are two issues tangled together up above in the thread:

(1) a suggestion for improving the mechanism (automatically e-mail them, move away from the one-liner limited character system towards the report tool or something...);

(2) some worries that old account notes linger around (a perennial problem from what I can tell; staff has repeatedly said they don't take old account notes seriously, so maybe make this a policy and put it in the help file on account notes);

One tiny quibble, though, and this is just to clean up a confusion I have.  Your first sentence doesn't mesh well with seidhr's comments below. 

Quote from: seidhr on November 02, 2015, 07:06:35 PM
If you get a negative ACCOUNT note, you will get an e-mail about it.  If you get a 'questionable' or even 'negative' note on a character, you won't get a note of it until you request your account notes, but it might be brought up if you ask for feedback during regular back and forth with staff via character reporting.

And:

Quote from: seidhr on November 01, 2015, 09:05:53 PM
If we set a note on someone's ACCOUNT that is negative, they should get an e-mail about it.  If we set a note on someone's PC that is negative, we don't typically send an e-mail.

Quote from: Eurynomos on November 03, 2015, 10:27:36 AM
I'll reiterate that negative account notes (when added) require the Staff member who added it to get in touch with the player of make it known via an open request.

We'd like to do something similar with good account notes. We are trying to devise a very simple method that doesn't create a bog of request tool work. I'll personally promise a resolution to it :)

You know what might help?  If there were a couple of communication-related flags on people's accounts that they could set.

Personally, I prefer that staff who know me, be rough, direct and informal.  Staff who don't know me should be polite and informal.

Other players seem to want formality, seem to want people to be gentle with them.  That's fine.  I just don't think staff should have to waste time guessing what players want.

I don't think we have to go that far, ibusoe.

Just be tactful, honest, and direct. Treat the player with respect and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Just as we should be doing with staff.

Armageddon has actually taught me a lot about how to constructively interact with people in an online format.

None of us are perfect, so I think the MOST important thing is: benefit of the doubt.

I'll use an example, a recent one - a staff member asked me to contact them to clarify problems I was having. Their initial response to my email seemed very brusque, but when I took a few deep breaths, looked at it as objectively as I could, and responded with as much honesty and tact as I could muster - it turned out a lot of our issues were simply miscommunication, and some misplaced expectations. Apologies were delivered on both sides and while it won't change the past, it made me feel a lot better about staff communication.

So it is a two way street. You cannot be hostile and reactionary to staff if you do not want them to be hostile to you... and vice versa.

Presumably, if one feels it necessary to insert a negative and  non-removable comment into a permanent record and has the time to do so, they could also just as easily send an ooc to the player to tell them what they are doing is not good rp and to knock it off.  Then they could not bother writing the note unless the player does not correct the mistake.

I have been spoken to by staff like this on more than one occasion. I have no idea if they added the account note as well, but it has always resulted in a change in my play. Hopefully for the better.  Is that not the goal? More FUN?

ON THE OTHER HAND     

Having followed the arguments in this thread, and understanding more about the legitimate need for notes, and the code mechanics that make them permanent even if staff do not want it to be so, I can not see this divide being bridged. Notes are not going away, at least not as easily as some might hope.

So, perhaps we should just move on and show some trust all around?  Staff are doing many things to improve the game.  And we have some solid, dedicated players who do the same. Lets go have FUN.

Quote from: Delirium on November 03, 2015, 11:23:52 AM
I don't think we have to go that far, ibusoe.

Just be tactful, honest, and direct. Treat the player with respect and give them the benefit of the doubt.

Just as we should be doing with staff.

Armageddon has actually taught me a lot about how to constructively interact with people in an online format.

None of us are perfect, so I think the MOST important thing is: benefit of the doubt.

I'll use an example, a recent one - a staff member asked me to contact them to clarify problems I was having. Their initial response to my email seemed very brusque, but when I took a few deep breaths, looked at it as objectively as I could, and responded with as much honesty and tact as I could muster - it turned out a lot of our issues were simply miscommunication, and some misplaced expectations. Apologies were delivered on both sides and while it won't change the past, it made me feel a lot better about staff communication.

So it is a two way street. You cannot be hostile and reactionary to staff if you do not want them to be hostile to you... and vice versa.

Almost every issue a player and staffer can possibly have will most likely stem from something of this. Communication is key with staff, and sometimes -miscommunication- happens. it happens to all of us, and clarifying such things in a civil fashion is the most important part of the communication process.

Miscommunication is easy to happen as no two people think exactly alike.

my opinion, anyway.

Make Rathustra a Producer.

...

K good, now we've got that outta the way.

People are way too angry about comments or criticism of their roleplays. Staff need some means to note things that occur that they don't understand, aren't happy with or are happy with. Nobody here's a perfect RPer. Some old notes should go, sure. If it can't be done right now, that's nobody's fault, but can be something worked towards.

Perhaps there could be some templated lines for some behaviours added to notes, so it removes the perceived snark or personal hostility. Maybe make a producer statement that all current PC notes or sufficiently negative notes can be requested to staff with an explanation, so people don't feel as powerless (you already can do this, but still). For noted things that are neutral, observations... split them out from positive/negative RP notes, into their own little section. It'll help remove the doubt and feelings of oppression that some people will read into them - then state that these DO NOT factor into staff decisionmaking for karma (but maybe for sponsored roles). There's a number of things that could be done to ease these tensions. I wasn't even aware it was some major source of tensions, but there you go. Nobody wants to feel permanently tainted I guess.

As a caveat, I have one visible out-of-context-but-looks-bad note, and that was on Lyvren from early on. Never came up IG and never factored in to anything as far as I know.

We have DOUBLED Aardwolf's votes on TMC.

DOUBLED.

I feel an Armageddon Golden Age incoming. I'm very excited about the future over the next few months.


(I meant this for Random Thoughts. Oops. Oh well, here works!!!)

Quote from: Norcal on November 03, 2015, 11:36:44 AM
ON THE OTHER HAND      

Having followed the arguments in this thread, and understanding more about the legitimate need for notes, and the code mechanics that make them permanent even if staff do not want it to be so, I can not see this divide being bridged. Notes are not going away, at least not as easily as some might hope.

So, perhaps we should just move on and show some trust all around?  Staff are doing many things to improve the game.  And we have some solid, dedicated players who do the same. Lets go have FUN.

I know people will break their backs around here in favor of justifying the status quo, but anything that serves to create more transparency, less bureaucracy and more trust between staff and players on Armageddon, can only be a good thing at this stage. It doesn't seem plausible that the 'benefit' of how account notes are handled currently outweighs their drawbacks and the ill feelings they encourage. This should be especially easy as we're constantly being told 'they don't matter' and 'not to worry about them'. If that's the case, and they're not some elaborate control mechanism for blacklisting people as many others have suspected, then it should be simple to make them transparent and no longer restricted to view.

And again. Many games, past and present, have done quite well without requiring such secrecy. It's possible that some aspects of staff culture have contributed to more headaches and more work than they're worth. Such as the obsessive need for being as opaque as possible in dealing with players. This is an online game. It's not a government agency, and anything that gets in the way of trust and cooperation, needs to be addressed.

And sorry, but Armageddon and its staff are long past the 'just trust us' stage. Maybe many of the current staff aren't responsible for that. But it certainly exists, and I think we all realize that there are severe trust issues in the playerbase. You want to know why Armageddon has trouble retaining players? It's not because the game isn't fun. It's because players don't trust staff. So eventually, if you care about the health of the game, you're going to want to do anything to create more trust.

At this point, that's only possible by significant and structural changes in policy. Something obvious and permanent that represents a break with past management philosophy. The feel good circle jerk 'let's all just trust each other more' mantra will only encourage and bring back the ardent GDBers. Not the sullen, silent majority.

Because whatever Armageddon's past management philosophies have been, it has not encouraged a healthy atmosphere. It's wrong to lay the blame for that on the players. Player attitudes are largely just a reaction to staff decisions. It's the same in RL companies or organizations, where the employee culture has turned toxic.

I mean, honestly. This whole thread just comes off as an excuse to pat each other on the back, how everything is actually for the best, and all past complaints to the contrary have safely been proven baseless, and there's no need to change any policies. I have personal experience, not just from ten years ago, but a few months ago, as to how completely arbitrary and unfair the staff-player dynamic can feel.

I dunno about all that.

Glass seems half full to me, not half empty and I think I will go with the trust. 

At the end of a year we will compare notes and see who is having more FUN.

Bureaucracy and transparency are kind of one and the same in a way in Arm. I might be way off, but here's how I see it.


A storyteller sees someone doing whatever and decides to make it a lot more fun. So he animates a bunch of npcs, bends the world a little, adds a little high fantasy shtick, and makes it all fun for everyone. Perhaps some NPCs did not act like they were ment to act as per their personalities and stations, but in the end ... fun was had.

No notes were posted, no special "this character was involved in Tektolnes coup' or whatever. No mention of anything in the request tool. No mention anywhere at all. A storyteller saw a potential to have a fun scene and chose to bend the world theme to make it fun for the player.

"Zero" Bureaucracy.  "Zero" transparency. Because other staffers dont know it happened. Next time, charas approach the same NPC participants expecting a similar behavior and get something entirely different. Some PCs who lost something, or got killed during the impromptu RPT have no real closure, or even any way to track down how did they die/lose.

That's how I understand it personally. To get transparency, stuff needs to be recorded/reported/noted and eventually released to those who request it. I myself 'like' that system.

Though admittedly, I imagine it leads to a situation when some staffer wants to do something, but suddenly cant, because ... bureaucracy.


I dont really have a solution to this. I just know baking a cake and eating it too is usually a pretty bad choice of strategy to achieve anything.

Half full.

Quote from: Inks on November 03, 2015, 10:37:52 PM
Half full.

Well, it's comforting to know that the people still playing are satisfied with the levels of transparency and mutual accountability in staff-player interaction. But if you wanted to know why many people have quit playing, well, there's your answer.

There also seems to be an unhealthy undercurrent to the effect that just because Nyr is gone, and Rath is is a producer now, then magically, all concerns have been addressed. Noone's come right out and said it, but there's definitely a vibe like that around. I also know there's a certain segment of the playerbase that fixates on one or two specific staffers (whose name may or may not begin with N) as the source of all their unfairness, and if they were gone, then everything would be right as rain.

I don't think that's the case. I don't think Armageddon's problems with retaining players have anything to do with any one staffer, even if one might be a convenient scapegoat to some people. There are deep and systemic cultural problems with how Armageddon staff in general, approach interaction with the playerbase. For a game with barely 50-70 people on prime time, on a good night, and with probably ~10-15 staffers logging in every day minimum in one capacity or another...They have managed to create an extremely disproportionate amount of work for themselves.

Armageddon needs deregulation, and part of that is starting with the easy things, like say, account notes, then moving on from there. Armageddon is managed extremely inefficiently...and if people can't see that. Well. All I can say is that well-managed games don't need to brainstorm about retaining players.

Quote from: Clearsighted on November 03, 2015, 11:37:56 PM
Well, it's comforting to know that the people still playing are satisfied with the levels of transparency and mutual accountability in staff-player interaction. But if you wanted to know why many people have quit playing, well, there's your answer.

There also seems to be an unhealthy undercurrent to the effect that just because Nyr is gone, and Rath is is a producer now, then magically, all concerns have been addressed. Noone's come right out and said it, but there's definitely a vibe like that around. I also know there's a certain segment of the playerbase that fixates on one or two specific staffers (whose name may or may not begin with N) as the source of all their unfairness, and if they were gone, then everything would be right as rain.

I don't think that's the case. I don't think Armageddon's problems with retaining players have anything to do with any one staffer, even if one might be a convenient scapegoat to some people. There are deep and systemic cultural problems with how Armageddon staff in general, approach interaction with the playerbase. For a game with barely 50-70 people on prime time, on a good night, and with probably ~10-15 staffers logging in every day minimum in one capacity or another...They have managed to create an extremely disproportionate amount of work for themselves.

Armageddon needs deregulation, and part of that is starting with the easy things, like say, account notes, then moving on from there. Armageddon is managed extremely inefficiently...and if people can't see that. Well. All I can say is that well-managed games don't need to brainstorm about retaining players.

I can agree I'm baffled that staff should involve themselves in the Kudos process, for example.  Like where is the value added?  I can see them rubber stamping stuff, but generally shouldn't players (who want feedback from other players) receive it?

I'd like to see kudos go through staff. Rather than see unsolicited messages occur between players.

Kudos have to go through staff because otherwise IC secrets could be divulged, links to dickpicks sent, death threats, etc. through the Kudos tool if it wasn't. Sure there'd be consequences, if it were monitored, but it's important that staff be able to review that information before it's passed on.

Great job with your breed, Amos. Also, if you want my gear a scrab killed me just outside the gates.

To further elaborate ('cause I wanted to be creative and talk about dead cats) -

You received a kudos for your play as PimpDaddyGG, TW:

"you play like a dying cat that's been sprawled out across a fifteen year old keyboard, fuckface. go die in a hole, you twinky, unoriginal piece of shit."


I can't really think of any requests that staff should just completely remove from the process.

PimpDaddyGG, TW:

Request resolved!

Might have been a forwarding problem, however, as we sent it to your mom's email address, whoops!

(http://awesomegifs.com/wp-content/uploads/cheers-slow-clap.gif)

Good thing I'm not an admin, I totally missed who that was supposedly going to.

Quote from: Fujikoma on November 04, 2015, 12:41:17 AM
Kudos have to go through staff because otherwise IC secrets could be divulged, links to dickpicks sent, death threats, etc. through the Kudos tool if it wasn't. Sure there'd be consequences, if it were monitored, but it's important that staff be able to review that information before it's passed on.

I'm reading this with a sarcastic tone to it.  If he only knew...

Quote from: Taijan on November 04, 2015, 02:00:06 AM

Quote from: Fujikoma on November 04, 2015, 12:41:17 AM
Kudos have to go through staff because otherwise IC secrets could be divulged, links to dickpicks sent, death threats, etc. through the Kudos tool if it wasn't. Sure there'd be consequences, if it were monitored, but it's important that staff be able to review that information before it's passed on.

I'm reading this with a sarcastic tone to it.  If he only knew...

That's why I'm glad I'm not on staff, I'm sure I'm not the only one who tries to send all three under the guise of kudos.

Quote from: Clearsighted on November 03, 2015, 11:37:56 PM

Quote from: Inks on November 03, 2015, 10:37:52 PM
Half full.

Well, it's comforting to know that the people still playing are satisfied with the levels of transparency and mutual accountability in staff-player interaction. But if you wanted to know why many people have quit playing, well, there's your answer.

There also seems to be an unhealthy undercurrent to the effect that just because Nyr is gone, and Rath is is a producer now, then magically, all concerns have been addressed. Noone's come right out and said it, but there's definitely a vibe like that around. I also know there's a certain segment of the playerbase that fixates on one or two specific staffers (whose name may or may not begin with N) as the source of all their unfairness, and if they were gone, then everything would be right as rain.

I don't think that's the case. I don't think Armageddon's problems with retaining players have anything to do with any one staffer, even if one might be a convenient scapegoat to some people. There are deep and systemic cultural problems with how Armageddon staff in general, approach interaction with the playerbase. For a game with barely 50-70 people on prime time, on a good night, and with probably ~10-15 staffers logging in every day minimum in one capacity or another...They have managed to create an extremely disproportionate amount of work for themselves.

Armageddon needs deregulation, and part of that is starting with the easy things, like say, account notes, then moving on from there. Armageddon is managed extremely inefficiently...and if people can't see that. Well. All I can say is that well-managed games don't need to brainstorm about retaining players.

Well managed games also tend to pay their employees for their time.

I think we are doing the best that we possibly can at the moment to make Players happy, and Staff happy.

We really do want you to have fun!

Quote from: Fujikoma on November 04, 2015, 12:41:17 AM
Kudos have to go through staff because otherwise IC secrets could be divulged, links to dickpicks sent, death threats, etc. through the Kudos tool if it wasn't. Sure there'd be consequences, if it were monitored, but it's important that staff be able to review that information before it's passed on.

Great job with your breed, Amos. Also, if you want my gear a scrab killed me just outside the gates.

The real tragedy is that staff does not have to do or monitor half the things that they're currently convinced they need to be. The request tool allows 5-10% of the playerbase to monopolize 90% of staff's time, and gives them a false sense of accomplishment after two hours of wading through requests.

Well. Spending a quarter of that time, going in game, to animate a random gith to fling an arrow at a passing patrol, would create more value (and more RP), than two hours spent handling the same requests/reports/kudos/desc changes/extended subguild apps/account note requests, for the same player.

The request tool might be here to stay, but it has definitely contributed to staff interacting less with the playerbase in a meaningful fashion. It has also been used to facilitate a lot of needless makework. It makes staff too available to players that are too needy, and distracts them from engaging with the majority. Plenty of people will come up with counter-examples, but I probably went on 40-50 patrols in a 4-5 month period (almost always with 4-8 players involved, out of around ~50-60 online), at least a dozen of which were planned in advance with several days warning. I think in all that time, we encountered an animated NPC once.

And yet, I'm sure our clan staffer was working very hard and wading through all the requests ending up on his desk. It's just easy to get fixated on the request tool and ignore everything else, and to believe things are accomplished and done, and everyone is satisfied, so long as the request queue is empty.

Quote from: Eurynomos on November 04, 2015, 03:51:36 AM
Well managed games also tend to pay their employees for their time.

I think we are doing the best that we possibly can at the moment to make Players happy, and Staff happy.

We really do want you to have fun!

This isn't the case. There are many, many, many volunteer projects and open-source efforts (wikipedia), fanfiction sites, mods for games like skyrim etc, and countless MUDs or MUSHes, that don't have paid employees but who manage to attract people and keep them happy. I think it's representative of the extreme amount of bureaucratic makework that Armageddon staff toils under (largely of their own making), that makes it feel like a job that needs monetary compensation to endure.

Storytelling should be fun. Staffing should be mostly fun. I've been a storyteller/producer-esque type (different genres have different terminology for staff types) in the past. I've worked on a game that had several hundred people on during prime time. We had fun. I didn't need to be paid to want to do things efficiently. But it does start to feel that way, I'm sure, when staffing becomes more like data entry.

If staff feel like they need to be financially compensated to perform better, then they probably shouldn't be volunteering their time.

Also? Somehow, whenever these threads crop up (and there's been a couple in the past), 'doing your best', always translates to defending the status quo, after letting people vent for a little while. The truth is, Armageddon has a deeply flawed management philosophy, and it's probably harmed the staff more than the players. You guys have got to start cutting away the dead weight chores and giving more agency and responsibility to the playerbase.

Nobody reasonable thinks staff is malicious. Nobody reasonable is sitting around going "staff dont want us to have fun! They're trying to make the game worse, and everyone miserable!" We know you are trying. We appreciate it. I also totally get that a bunch of people criticizing your hard work sucks.

That said, "I'm a volunteer" and "this is the best we can possibly do" are not very constructive.

"I'm a volunteer" in particular, I think, is missing the point of Clearsighted's suggestion. He's calling for streamlining so that the volunteers will have more time to do stuff that makes the game more fun for staff and players alike.


I recall this from the moon code changes thread (and let me preface by saying it was a great change and I appreciate the work):

Quote
"During this step there are hours of back and forth collaboration with other staffers and coders in game and on discussion boards.  It can take days or weeks to hash out all the details depending on everyone's schedules and the nature of the change.  As part of the collaboration, all the feature lists are created and a design document can be drafted, revised and re-revised. "

This was very worrisome to read. This has stuck in my head since I read it. When I think "Armageddon has become bureaucratic," I think "the moon design document thread."

Hours of back and forth? Discussion boards? Weeks to hash out details? Schedules?

I get that there are benefits to those processes. Really though, I can see this working just as well with 1 person, the coder, being supplied with relevant information so they don't violate game lore, and being set loose. There does not need to be a convention called to handle projects like this.

It's very nice to get the team involved and have discussions and meetings and back and forth and posts about this objection and this and that, but you're sacrificing a lot of time and agility when you operate like this.

Projects like that, without huge consequences: put someone on it. Give them a little guidance where necessary. Let them work. If it needs revision, give them that feedback.

The idea of "every detail must get a rubber stamp from the top of the hierarchy" needs to be excised from Armageddon's management culture. Let the game breathe. You're holding it in an iron fist.

Quote from: Large Hero on November 04, 2015, 04:01:52 AM
The idea of "every detail must get a rubber stamp from the top of the hierarchy" needs to be excised from Armageddon's management culture. Let the game breathe. You're holding it in an iron fist.

Exactly this. There's plenty of specific examples where staff creates unnecessary work for themselves and stifles the playerbase.

Just off the top of my head...Warehouses. Instead of being an elaborate bureaucratic process that seems to require at least 3 separate staff meetings behind the scenes at each step of the process...Just give Allanak four warehouse compounds. Let the templars handle it. Staff doesn't need to concern themselves with which indy outfit qualifies as a 'minor merchant house' officially or not. Let the templars handle that.

if someone is trusted enough to be a templar, they can be trusted enough to handle everything concerned with warehouses and indy outfits without staff involvement.

If someone can come up with the 50k, 100k, or however many sids to acquire a warehouse property, let them work it out with the templar. If a new templar comes along that wants to evict them or demand more sids, let them deal with that too.

Staff does not need to be involved. They do not need to hold behind the scenes meetings to address the 'OOC integrity' of the player behind the merchant. If staff doesn't trust someone to be able to acquire a warehouse or form a merchant house in the game - regardless of all their IC RP, and even getting a templar to go along with it, then why are they even allowed to log in?

If the leader of a clan wants to make an elite unit, or have someone be an 'Outrider', let them do it. There is no need for staff to micromanage clans. That's what you have players for. It defeats the purpose of having players, if all the cool roles and the ones requiring the most initiative and leadership are left to NPCs...Because it's staff that has to step in. Is it going to ruin the game if the elite and interesting units suddenly have PCs in them instead of NPCs? Most clans only have a small handful of players. They might as well take on the interesting roles. Staff cannot fill the upper-middle and upper leadership function of every clan. They need to experiment with letting players have control of them - again.

Extended subguilds. There's no reason why they need to be treated like a special app. It just seems another way of creating more work for staff. It could be very easily automated. But there's a fear against doing so, because it removes another control mechanism.

Staff is way too concerned about control. And clearly, their unprecedented control and direct oversight has not helped the game. No more than overregulation helps the economy.

I could go on. Armageddon is the very definition of a centrally-planned RP-economy. It creates a minimum of entertainment value with a maximum of work and supervision. The game has always been more fun when staff took on less responsibility.

I don't have a whole lot to add to this discussion since the reason I'm not playing is simply because I got busy as hell.

But re staff forcing you to go through them rather than templars to do stuff, I have to say PLEASE do not change this. Having to go through PC templars for stuff like warehouses would make the game even less friendly to off-peak players than it already is.

I played a PC in Tuluk who tried to hire a shadow artist for literally months because, as an off-peak player, I could never find a Lirathan.

I played a gemmed mage in Allanak who had to eventually get his gem from a staff-animated templar because I could never find a templar.

And this was when I was playing a good 4-6 hours a day several times a week. It may be a lot of additional work for staff, but leaving stuff like that entirely in the hands of PC templars would be a huge kick in the family jewels to folks who don't live in USA time zones. It's not the greatest system in the world and I'm sure there's room for improvement, but if I had to go through PC templars to do a lot of stuff, it would severely limit the types of roles for players like me. I don't want to live in mortal terror of my warehouse being given to someone else because I haven't been able to find a PC templar and my rent's been due for a week.

I think the amount of work that players perceive that staff have to do is severely overblown. When projects take weeks, they are beside other projects that also take time to do and are worthy of finishing. Often, these projects are not publicly announced, as they are for specific PCs or clans. The perception is partially our fault: when we share the design process for something, the implication is that the project was the only thing we talked about or worked on for the past few weeks - but it wasn't.

Regarding the glass ceiling, or restricted roles within clans, there is more room than there has been in a long time to move up in clans. While I won't get into IC details, I can think of at least four clans off the top of my head that have PCs in very high positions in their clan within the past year or so, relative to the virtual and NPC aspect of their clan. Additionally, a new clan was planned and opened with the intent of the PCs taking the "interesting roles" within it. The glass ceiling is more apparent when the clan is populated by relatively newer PCs that haven't earned those promotions yet. But when they do earn those high-level promotions, they tend to get them. That is something I've both experienced as a player and tried to ensure as a staff member.

Automating extended subguilds requires a code change that Nessalin is looking into.

Spending a good deal of time discussing a minor change like the phases of the moon doesn't strike me as wasteful. It strikes me as a serious commitment to quality control. I once worked in a metal shop where this was crucial, we used to do work for DOW Chemical. Our tolerance range for measurements being off on jobs that, weren't entirely crucial with details? Less than a 32nd of an inch, ANYWHERE. More than that off? It's scrap. Make a new one. Something more sensitive? We'd contract it out to a shop with the equipment to ensure it got done with as little error as possible, and THEN we'd check that shit obsessively, and say "Make us a new one, you fucked up here, get some of your lost funds back by recycling this garbage you sent us. What, do you want to incinerate tens of thousands of people?". I think it shows in the phases of the moon. Maybe it doesn't matter to my current PC, but maybe one day I want to play a demented Seer who makes all his decisions based on what occurs to him given the positioning of the moons and bizarre chants.

That said, there are times where, I wonder, is this simple change over here really of such magnitude that it needs to sit on the back burner for months, despite logs upon logs of player effort, only to be shot down with a no? I can only imagine what's going on there, but, I have to admit, though befuddled, I have no idea.

I'm not sure about the request tool, I wasn't here before it went into use, so I can't pine for the days or yore, nor can I say, well, the days of yore sucked, fuck you. The request tool works, there's a lot I don't understand about how it works, but, it's there.

As far as maliciousness, I don't, personally, think staff is overly malicious, I do, however, think it a mistake to begin with the assumption that they aren't malicious in the slightest, or that it's not focused on some players to the exclusion of others, who may be committing more grievous sins. This is only human, it feels unfair to the person on the receiving end, whether justified or not, and is magnified by the veil of secrecy, which, in a game like this, is necessary. In a game where there is significant emotional investment, unlike, say, a PvP mud or hack and slash, this can cause a good deal more frustration in players with a lower tolerance (usually newer) and inspire them to find something else to do, or, in the event something seemingly more unfair happens, even a well adjusted player, even a stoic player may choose to move on. A lot of this could be eased on staff's end by, one, adjusting the way staff communicates, which, is hard for me to gauge but I've been seeing some positive, though slow, change, and two, staff adjusting the way they look at even problem players. It's difficult to give staff the benefit of the doubt when it comes to maliciousness, when it can feel like they aren't extending us the same courtesy.

Quote from: Clearsighted on November 04, 2015, 03:58:06 AM

The real tragedy is that staff does not have to do or monitor half the things that they're currently convinced they need to be. The request tool allows 5-10% of the playerbase to monopolize 90% of staff's time, and gives them a false sense of accomplishment after two hours of wading through requests.

The request tool also allows 90% of the playerbase to monopolize 10% of the staff's time. It's up to the staff to determine which requests they'll focus on and which will be shelved, resolved within minutes, or closed without resolution. Since you're not on staff, and neither am I, it's pretty pointless to base your entire opinion on an assumption you can't back up with facts.

----

Quote
There are many, many, many volunteer projects and open-source efforts (wikipedia), fanfiction sites, mods for games like skyrim etc, and countless MUDs or MUSHes, that don't have paid employees but who manage to attract people and keep them happy. I think it's representative of the extreme amount of bureaucratic makework that Armageddon staff toils under (largely of their own making), that makes it feel like a job that needs monetary compensation to endure.

There are a whole lot MORE volunteer muds that fail miserably because no one is held accountable due to "I'm just a volunteer, therefore I don't have to do anything if I don't want to." In addition, Armageddon has a niche audience, whose only real common trait is they enjoy muds. Not everyone likes the magick system, not everyone wants it to change. Some of them want to condense the playerbase in fewer clans, some want them more spread out and more clans opened. Some want this, while others want that. You *CANNOT* make the playerbase happy. Some of them will be annoyed/irritated/miserable/disappointed, and some will be happy/overjoyedsatisfied/content.

Just because you think something isn't working, and therefore the game should change to fit your idea of what works - doesn't mean that a change in that direction will make everyone else happy. In fact, it doesn't mean it'll make ANYONE else happy. It might - but you have no way of knowing one way or another.

I'd love to see some changes. But I also know that what suits me doesn't necessarily suit anyone else. I don't hold a hard line of "fix it or I"m leaving" because even if they DID do what I asked - I have no way of knowing until then, whether or not I'll like the results.

But yeah, I think it seems kind of, unnappreciative to pick out a change like the phases of the moon, which I'm only now beginning to realize the depths of, as an example of staff waste. I know they don't always make the changes we want to see, but, as I said before, quality control, consensus. Considering there are many things going on at once, part of a collaborative effort of people who don't live in the same timezone, I'd say it's a nice change. Not only that, the process was explained to us as an effort at transparency. That adds another level of seeming ingratitude on top of using it as a negative example. I obsessively use the "weather" command, so, over time, I've been just, checking out the wide variety of positions and phases the moons can be in. I won't say I understand what's going on there, but it's evident to me that a lot of thought and consideration went into it, and it's not just some random variable, but part of a system with some kind of basis.

And maybe there's reasons this was done, maybe, therein, are contained some kind of clues as to a plot. Who knows? Likely some elderly Sath scholar, peering up at the sky through a primitive telescopic tube, before paling significantly and gasping, "Oh... shit."

Some of us wonder why seemingly simple changes we'd like to see are so hard or impossible at this time. It's not up to me to speculate, as I have zero fricking information on the matter, but I imagine there must be some reason. On the surface, it strikes me as rediculous, but I'm ambivalent in that I want to look at it as there must be a reason, and, for whatever reason, that reason isn't being shared with me. I know some other muds develop more quickly, it's also easier to get consensus from 2-3-4 staff members than it is a larger team, further, there's a good deal of history and lore to take into account, I would assume.

EDIT: I should also, likely, note the challenges involved in figuring up the orbits of satellites around an object that gets, two or three hours of "night" compared to so many daylight hours. Not sure if that went into it or not, but it's something I'd, personally, be worried about if it were a project I were working on.

I get confused when I see people telling us about all the red tape and bureaucracy we have to deal with because it isn't really the case?...

The first thing I really did when I joined the team was revive the old Rinth starter shop project. Here is how it went:

1. I found a few items that had been created for the old project.

2. I asked if anyone was still actively working on it. Turns out the staffers involved were no longer on the team.

3. I asked if anyone had issues with me taking over the project. All clear!

4. I wrote a draft for a style guide to give the builders. Emailed it to my admin for approval. Done.

5. We made a bunch of dope stuff (88 new items, some NPCs, rooms, etc).

6. I submitted an object approval for the new goodies. This step caught a few typos I hadn't noticed. Boom. Done.

7. I asked the code wizards to adjust the spawn code when you point Labyrinth so you pop in the starter shop. Boom. Done.

8. Everything was pushed live. No ridiculous bureaucracy or red tape or extra work.

Quote from: Fujikoma on November 04, 2015, 10:06:40 AM
This is only human, it feels unfair to the person on the receiving end, whether justified or not, and is magnified by the veil of secrecy, which, in a game like this, is necessary. In a game where there is significant emotional investment... this can cause a good deal more frustration in players with a lower tolerance (usually newer) and inspire them to find something else to do, or, in the event something seemingly more unfair happens, even a well adjusted player, even a stoic player may choose to move on.

Not surprisingly, some people take issue with others wielding power, authority, secrecy, and judgement over them.  It doesn't matter how noble the intentions are, or the direct form it takes (I'm convinced some of the account note vitriol is just a proxy for a general sense of resentment), it's going to ruffle some feathers.  Whether or not this is finally a problem worth addressing is up to the staff, but I'd say it is.

I don't think the staff are doomed when it comes to this problem, but it may take a pretty big cultural shift.

• Understand that when players get upset about stuff, it's probably because they're passionate about this game, their character, or whatever.  Try and channel that passion, rather than shoot it down with style and sarcasm.
• Most staff should focus more on facilitating, less on enforcement.  Code, and tell stories.
• Get out of the business of RP critiquing entirely.  We can do workshops on the GDB or in special in-game sessions if people feel really strongly about wanting feedback.
• Account and player notes should be based exclusively on objective data.
• Set up a thorough enforcement policy for offenses that steps outside the veil of staff-player secrecy and empowers players.  Set up a system of warnings that ranges from, "We noticed something fishy; feel free to submit an explanation to your clan staff," to "This is your third and final warning, if this behavior continues, a formal complaint will be sent to Nyr and the enforcement team."  If you're going to accuse someone of doing something wrong, you have to bring them into the conversation as an equal partner.  Do it person to person, not player to great and powerful Oz. Do it on Teamspeak, or Skype if desired.  Include an appeals process, and an option for impartial third party mediation, not a peer, friend, and co-volunteer of the great and powerful Oz.
• Engage with players differently, enable players to assist with the game in ways that share the workload.  Minimize the distinction between player and staff and give players the benefit of the doubt based on their experience and participation.  How about: player, volunteer, assistant, builder, legend, storyteller, administrator, producer
• Promote staff and player engagement outside of clan management.  How about regular clan staff-player meetings, just to shoot the shit during the World Series, or to talk about different aspects of the clan on an OOC basis?

Players, too, have to alter their ways some.

• Let go of the past
• Stop trying to get the last word in in request and GDB exchanges.  Make your case, respond one time if clarification is needed, then let it go.  Seriously, chill.
• I'm sure there's more, I may ninja edit them when I have more time.

Mordiggian, I think it's due to when a member of staff a while back posted to the GDB explaining what went into the phases of the moon project, which, is a different project than the starter shop project, I'm going to have to play a rinthi sooner or later because I'm highly excited to see what's in there.

Oldkank, yeah, yeah, I know there are times where I've pursued an argument via the request tool past a "no", it was rather unwise of me, and really wasn't worth the time and hassle of anyone. These days I either don't submit a request or brush it off and move on. There can be some buildup over time due to interactions with, um, less favorable results, though I must say I admire the patience that's been shown with me. Good post overall.

The moon project was code-heavy and required revolved pretty much entirely around new coded functions. These do need to undergo a thorough testing/vetting process so the game doesn't break.

Sometimes simple building projects crash the game! Not that I would have any recent experience with that or anything...

Quote from: Mordiggian on November 04, 2015, 02:35:56 PM
The moon project was code-heavy and required revolved pretty much entirely around new coded functions. These do need to undergo a thorough testing/vetting process so the game doesn't break.

Sometimes simple building projects crash the game! Not that I would have any recent experience with that or anything...

Heehee, please build more, I have a large pile of silky braies and hair needles that need selling.  ;)

That said, I have often wondered why doors and curtains are sometimes taboo in Zalanthas, depending on location and setting.

Re: Request tool

In the olden days (not really all that long ago), character reports and such were delivered to an animated NPC superior if you were in a clan, and were either cast into a void or maybe emailed to staff if you were unclanned, I guess. I never reported things back in those days.  When I was giving those reports, they were kinda nice. It let my character feel like they were building a relationship with their direct superior and get real time feedback.

But, these only happened on occasion due to login times with the Storyteller not matching up, and oftentimes there were other PCs there waiting to give their reports as well.  It was a huge time sink on both ends - sure, I had a lot of free time back then, but it meant 1-2 hours were spent not RPing with other players. Instead I was either listing off various things that might've just got thrown in a mental trashcan, or waiting for my turn. If I forgot something, I'd either have to wait until next time or just never mention it.  And once a report was given, I never knew if any of that information would go anywhere.

A lot of it didn't. Only a handful of things were recorded, and the rest was lost. If it was an email sent in, it could go to a group of people. But as staff have rotated out, those get lost too.  So I think the request tool is great. Data is stored for all staff to see, new staff can look at a character's request history when they're assigned to a new team, and everyone gets a chance to see them and offer feedback/additional info.

The word bureaucracy gets thrown around a lot here and in those jcarter parts.  I won't say there's not a process to getting things added or changed, but it's more about getting a second or third pair of eyes to proofread your work and offer advice for improvements. We want our work to be of high quality.

Back to requests - many of them really don't take long.  Some may go unresolved longer if they generate discussion, or if it prompts a dialogue with the submitter.  Or we want to give other staff a chance to see things and offer feedback before resolving right away.  But the number one thing that might lead to a perception that requests are a time sink is - most times, we're animating for a group of players, are observing them, are planning out plot lines and scenes, or are doing work on various projects that give everyone some new toys and tools to play with.  A large portion of my attention has been focused on trimming away "administrative" work so I and future staff can direct that focus more on players (automating item orders was a big one).

I think that Eurynomos' comment that we're not paid was misconstrued.  A paid employee that helps to run a game can likely expect to have 8-12 hours of their day focused solely on the efforts to run that game.  We don't. We have other full time jobs, bills to pay, families to feed, friends to spend time with, and other hobbies that we like to pursue outside of this game that we all love.

I can't speak for everyone, but I can speak for me - time is a finite resource. Every hour I devote to Armageddon is an hour I don't devote to something else - and I'm okay with that, or I wouldn't be doing it still.  But, I've still got other things competing for my time. I try to dedicate an hour each day to exercise, and another dedicated solely to playing with my dog - there's some free time that I'm pretty much not going to give up for anything.

But there's that extra window of free time that gets dedicated to gaming.  I've really been  enjoying Phantom Pain and a replay of Life is Strange on top of the time I focus on Armageddon. And it's a safe bet that when Fallout 4 comes out next week (and I finally make the decision between buying an expensive computer or a PS4), some free time is gonna go towards that.  So here's an important question that I haven't seen addressed much in this thread: how do WE make Armageddon attractive enough to make someone not want to play something else for even just 1-3 hours every day or so?

A lot of fingers have been pointing towards staff, and I'll freely admit that there's always room for improvement. But c'mon, in game I can safely assume that >95% of your interactions are with other players.  When I could sit down and play a character of my own (it's been a little while), player-to-player interactions were what I kept coming for. Staff attention wasn't even icing on the cake for me - at best, it was a cherry on top.  For me, that was never a bad thing. I enjoy a little staff attention from time to time, but I have a lot more fun with other players.  Voting is great for bringing in new people, but fun is going to keep them here.

So what do you find fun?  How can you share that with others?

Can't wait to read the hate posts on the alt gdb now that you've stirred the turd.

Here's a trend I've seen that I particularly don't care for in regards to the request tool.

If the IC superior has a perfectly sound IC reason for the message being handed down...you get an animation.

If there really is no good IC reason for the superior to give the direction being handed down, because it makes no IC sense...the request tool gets used instead.

Why?

In my experience the answer is, "Because if we animate this NPC, really, IC'ly, this guy hasn't done anything wrong and he has a really good case to tell this NPC how it is and possibly actually -win- the interaction and get their way for IC reasons.".

The only time I've found superior NPC's to really be animated is when the outcome doesn't matter, or when they are so high up the food chain that trying to present any argument at all is futile.

Basically, you only get them if you are guaranteed a no win situation and staff is guaranteed full control of the conversation and its outcome.

Anything else where you might be able to present a sound IC argument to get your way in an IC fashion and you get the request tool.

Granted, that's my own personal experience, but I can think of a few situations where it applied.

With all of that being said, I remember the days of doing things via email only....we did the SAME things then...we just did it in a much more clunky much harder way.

Would it be ideal if every interaction and every bit of direction was handed to you by an NPC you could interact with? Yes. Is that possible due to the real IC restrictions on resources and time that staff has? No.

I don't have a good solution.

I, personally, love interacting with other players, whether in the taverns, behind closed doors, in the streets or marketplace, or in the wastes. I like to try and create a moment that, years later, the player behind that character will still remember. When in character generation, I keep my backgrounds vague, but, with some guidelines to work around, then flesh them out as the character develops and the time to share stories comes up. Over the lifespan of my characters, they natrually go through a good deal of changes (provided they survive) and learn lessons, and, may have some tales of tragedy and woe, or, comedy, with a valuable moral, to share with other characters.

I like making things IG, not just the finished product, but the design process itself, not a bunch of solo RP trimming fabrics or gluing bone together to find out what works, na, that's done, virtually. I mean, musing on ideas, consulting fellow creatives, who you trust not to steal your ideas, or, the types of characters you intend to be your customers, well, Amos, what do you think would help you greb more efficiently? Then bounce it back and forth a bit, ruminate, reflect, consult, all are reasons for interaction.

I don't like grunt squint spar rough circle times infinity. These can be entertaining enough if you insert some character development and humor, but, sooner or later, it gets old, which is why I think the subject of the increasing of combat skills and weapons skills bears some looking at, as the rediculousness of finding a fail at certain skill levels can aspire an achiever type t explore some really wacky options. But yes, I like to bring interaction into these roles as well, because, I mean, what else can you do? If you don't, it, really becomes quite bland.

I like finding newbies and finding IC excuses to help them out, whether it's pointing them to the Byn or some other group, or, even if they're clanned, maybe finding an excuse to discuss a topic that may warn them about something their fellow PCs might have forgotten which could lead to YASD. I like seeing them grow and succeed, and I interact in the hopes of providing examples of character growth and hoping their characters find their own moments to grow.

EDIT: That's what I do anyway. I fail to see the benefit of immediately imposing the harshness of the world on someone who hasn't the slightest idea what's going on yet, that's not very sporting.

Taijan, I do feel like the way you say "We do our best with the limited time we have to dedicate to Armageddon" sounds a lot better than "We're volunteers, deal with it."

The first sentence makes me understand you and where you're coming from, since I have to deal with the same problems IRL and time -is- limited. I totally understand that.

The second sentence makes it sound like you want us to put you on a pedestal and worship every little code changes that get implemented or else we're selfish bastards playing on your hallowed ground.

I much prefer the way you phrased it and think you should ditch the volunteerism martyrdom for it :)

(and of course, as always, I don't mean "you" as "you" personally, just in general).

I agree with Malken, I love the way that was phrased, it not only emphasizes the RL time concerns that many of us have, encouraging an empathetic response, but challenges and encourages us, as players, to do our part at player retention, without coming off as blaming or finger-pointing. It's more positive reinforcement than shaming the player and simply saying, "You're not trying hard enough.", but saying, "What do you do? Let's all share strategies for player retention, which I've already aknowledged you're working toward, in order to pursue a common goal.".

Quote from: Taijan on November 04, 2015, 02:47:33 PM
A lot of fingers have been pointing towards staff, and I'll freely admit that there's always room for improvement. But c'mon, in game I can safely assume that >95% of your interactions are with other players.  When I could sit down and play a character of my own (it's been a little while), player-to-player interactions were what I kept coming for. Staff attention wasn't even icing on the cake for me - at best, it was a cherry on top.  For me, that was never a bad thing. I enjoy a little staff attention from time to time, but I have a lot more fun with other players.  Voting is great for bringing in new people, but fun is going to keep them here.

So what do you find fun?  How can you share that with others?

Totally agree with the above.  If I'm not interacting with other players then... why am I here?  I could be solo RP'ing somewhere with graphics.  So yes, more players in game means more opportunities to find interaction which means more potential for fun to be had. 

How do you share that?  Find a hook for your character to interact with the characters around them. A great example that comes up is RP'ing hate/disgust.  No just pretend to be link-dead to show you're not interested in interacting.  Throw out an emote that you get up from your stool at the bar, move a few stools further away, and start muttering about that filthy allanaki patriot.  Give those around you something to play off of.

Quote from: Malken on November 04, 2015, 03:14:07 PM
The second sentence makes it sound like you want us to put you on a pedestal and worship every little code changes that get implemented or else we're selfish bastards playing on your hallowed ground.

I much prefer the way you phrased it and think you should ditch the volunteerism martyrdom for it :)

(and of course, as always, I don't mean "you" as "you" personally, just in general).

Hmm, that's about the exact opposite of the thought I was trying to express.  Thanks for the second set of eyes on that, Malken!

Quote from: Taijan on November 04, 2015, 03:42:35 PM

Quote from: Malken on November 04, 2015, 03:14:07 PM
The second sentence makes it sound like you want us to put you on a pedestal and worship every little code changes that get implemented or else we're selfish bastards playing on your hallowed ground.

I much prefer the way you phrased it and think you should ditch the volunteerism martyrdom for it :)

(and of course, as always, I don't mean "you" as "you" personally, just in general).

Hmm, that's about the exact opposite of the thought I was trying to express.  Thanks for the second set of eyes on that, Malken!

playerstaffinteraction.txt

Quote from: Taijan on November 04, 2015, 03:42:35 PM

Quote from: Malken on November 04, 2015, 03:14:07 PM
The second sentence makes it sound like you want us to put you on a pedestal and worship every little code changes that get implemented or else we're selfish bastards playing on your hallowed ground.

I much prefer the way you phrased it and think you should ditch the volunteerism martyrdom for it :)

(and of course, as always, I don't mean "you" as "you" personally, just in general).

Hmm, that's about the exact opposite of the thought I was trying to express.  Thanks for the second set of eyes on that, Malken!

Without the first part of the quote, Malken's words taken out of context, it looks like he's saying  the opposite of his original post to me. He's not talking about your second sentence, he's talking about the ones in his post in quotation marks, perhaps "former and latter" would have been better word choice in his post...

...or... that's the joke, and I missed it? *boggled*

Quote from: Taijan on November 04, 2015, 03:42:35 PM

Quote from: Malken on November 04, 2015, 03:14:07 PM
The second sentence makes it sound like you want us to put you on a pedestal and worship every little code changes that get implemented or else we're selfish bastards playing on your hallowed ground.

I much prefer the way you phrased it and think you should ditch the volunteerism martyrdom for it :)

(and of course, as always, I don't mean "you" as "you" personally, just in general).

Hmm, that's about the exact opposite of the thought I was trying to express.  Thanks for the second set of eyes on that, Malken!

No I think he meant the way you said it was good and encouraging, and the way people have said it in the past ("We're volunteers you ungrateful savages") is off-putting and makes people feel bad.

Yeah, English being my 2nd language, if there's a mix up it's probably my fault.

But I'm not sure where the mix up is, I was saying that what Taijan was describing as a genuine lack of time to do everything they and we want done on Armageddon sounds a lot better than the usual "We're volunteers!" we often hear.

Yeah, what Lauramars says :)

Oh!  :-[

Okay, Taijan is on the same page now.

Quote from: Taijan on November 04, 2015, 04:04:01 PM
Oh!  :-[

Okay, Taijan is on the same page now.

Technically, there was a page roll.

staff are just people and players are just people. Us and them is a horrible illusion

Quote from: Case on November 04, 2015, 04:11:26 PM
staff are just people and players are just people. Us and them is a horrible illusion

As far as I know, staff all were players at one point, and many still are. Perceived staff attitudes, strengths, weaknesses, behavior and style are probably pretty representative of what is found in the playerbase as a whole. 

[There was some mean stuff here. Chill out. - Mordiggian]

Quote from: Taijan on November 04, 2015, 02:47:33 PM
Re: Request tool

In the olden days (not really all that long ago), character reports and such were delivered to an animated NPC superior if you were in a clan, and were either cast into a void or maybe emailed to staff if you were unclanned, I guess. I never reported things back in those days.  When I was giving those reports, they were kinda nice. It let my character feel like they were building a relationship with their direct superior and get real time feedback.

Honestly, the game was a lot more fun back then. I know the request tool is here to stay. But I'll remain convinced that it's done more to separate players and staff than anything else.

Quote from: Old Kank on November 04, 2015, 02:20:04 PM

Quote from: Fujikoma on November 04, 2015, 10:06:40 AM
This is only human, it feels unfair to the person on the receiving end, whether justified or not, and is magnified by the veil of secrecy, which, in a game like this, is necessary. In a game where there is significant emotional investment... this can cause a good deal more frustration in players with a lower tolerance (usually newer) and inspire them to find something else to do, or, in the event something seemingly more unfair happens, even a well adjusted player, even a stoic player may choose to move on.

Not surprisingly, some people take issue with others wielding power, authority, secrecy, and judgement over them.  It doesn't matter how noble the intentions are, or the direct form it takes (I'm convinced some of the account note vitriol is just a proxy for a general sense of resentment), it's going to ruffle some feathers.  Whether or not this is finally a problem worth addressing is up to the staff, but I'd say it is.

I don't think the staff are doomed when it comes to this problem, but it may take a pretty big cultural shift.

• Understand that when players get upset about stuff, it's probably because they're passionate about this game, their character, or whatever.  Try and channel that passion, rather than shoot it down with style and sarcasm.
• Most staff should focus more on facilitating, less on enforcement.  Code, and tell stories.
• Get out of the business of RP critiquing entirely.  We can do workshops on the GDB or in special in-game sessions if people feel really strongly about wanting feedback.
• Account and player notes should be based exclusively on objective data.
• Set up a thorough enforcement policy for offenses that steps outside the veil of staff-player secrecy and empowers players.  Set up a system of warnings that ranges from, "We noticed something fishy; feel free to submit an explanation to your clan staff," to "This is your third and final warning, if this behavior continues, a formal complaint will be sent to Nyr and the enforcement team."  If you're going to accuse someone of doing something wrong, you have to bring them into the conversation as an equal partner.  Do it person to person, not player to great and powerful Oz. Do it on Teamspeak, or Skype if desired.  Include an appeals process, and an option for impartial third party mediation, not a peer, friend, and co-volunteer of the great and powerful Oz.
• Engage with players differently, enable players to assist with the game in ways that share the workload.  Minimize the distinction between player and staff and give players the benefit of the doubt based on their experience and participation.  How about: player, volunteer, assistant, builder, legend, storyteller, administrator, producer
• Promote staff and player engagement outside of clan management.  How about regular clan staff-player meetings, just to shoot the shit during the World Series, or to talk about different aspects of the clan on an OOC basis?

This is a great post. It's tragic that it'll be lost in the thread spam and never actually implemented. Because this is what the game needs. But as Kank said, it would require a cultural shift, and I don't think many staff actually want a cultural shift. They seem to just want to let people vent for a bit, then go back to business as usual.

Judging from 99% of the staff responses in this thread (especially the most recent ones), they are bemused by any criticism and convinced they're doing everything exactly as it should be done.

Well. So be it. I posted in here why I left, and why many others have. If it makes people still playing feel better to deride and object to those reasons and go back to what they were doing, then there you have it. But if you want to know the REAL kind of structural changes that would convince past jaded players to really give Armageddon a second chance? Then Old Kank pretty much nailed it.

Oooooh boy.

I think this discussion is now going unpleasant places!

If you can't play nice, you can't play at all.

Unlocking this for now.

You are welcome to disagree or object to the way the game is staffed. You are welcome to be critical of the ideas of staff or other players.

You aren't welcome to harass other players because you dislike them or their ideas, regardless of what those ideas are.

Thanks friends.

Quote from: Mordiggian on November 04, 2015, 05:09:48 PM
Unlocking this for now.

You are welcome to disagree or object to the way the game is staffed. You are welcome to be critical of the ideas of staff or other players.

You aren't welcome to harass other players because you dislike them or their ideas, regardless of what those ideas are.

Thanks friends.

See baby this is the shit you gotta do to be that first world country white stuff I'm proud of you this was a good solution to the problem I think this might be a run on sentence.



We need to focus less on calling 'shit' out and calling 'game shit/staff shit (Not just not liking people)/issues out"
Or something.

When it comes to NPC superior animations I agree that having them is a time sync...  however, they added ALOT to the role.  I'm not opposed to making these animations infrequent because of the time sync, but they've virtually been eliminated as far as I can tell.  Having a face to face meeting with your superior once every two IC years (every 3 months) isn't much to ask in my opinion...  But then again, I'm not staff, so maybe these things take more effort than I'm able to realize from my perspective.

It's fine to disagree with people and staff if you do it respectfully.

If you just want to sh*t on the carpet, you can go start your own Internet community and do it there.   ::)

...cuz we don't want to clean up after you.  Tee hee.

As to what Case said, I've heard something similar before. I was having a civil political discussion at a bar with a rather charsimatic fellow, and he said something that changed the way I look at things. He's like, "Look here, you're subscribing to an us vs. them perspective. There is no us, there is no them, there's just people. The us vs. them game is a game those in power use to control you, I know you're smarter than that, don't fall for it.".

Also, the misunderstanding as to Malken's post highlights Taijan's point about needing not just a second set of eyes, but a third, maybe a fourth. I know whenever I'm writing, drawing, making music, despite the fact that I destroy most of it, some of it I do get a second or third opinion on before destroying it... sometimes my sketchbook gets stolen or the audio copied in the process, however.

Please, Clearsighted, don't get defensive in response, this is a unique opportunity to have a productive and civil conversation with staff, something some of us have been waiting for for a looooong time. Don't ruin it for everyone with hostility. Yes, Old Kank's post is constructive, yours is, well, not, please try and agree (or disagree) in a constructive manner, rather than making assumptions as to staff motivation and perspective. I just jumped into this conversation, and I'm not going to read a bunch of pages back, but as far as I can tell things are veering toward good things.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plQihaRQBfI

Just posting to say I've been MIA for a year and a half not to do with anything about the game, but because I have been busy as hell, and also my laptop broke (which helped me focus on RL stuff causing me to eventually become busy as hell) and all I got at home is an iPad and I'm not playing this on an IPad... or at work.

So, game was still fun when I stopped.

Plus, getting older, regretting blowing loads of time on a (very very very very well designed and fun) text game instead of other stuff.  That plays into it too.  I yearn to return from time to time.

Great post Old Kank.  If I had to choose three of the ideas you listed here as priorities, I'd choose these:

Quote from: Old Kank on November 04, 2015, 02:20:04 PM

• Understand that when players get upset about stuff, it's probably because they're passionate about this game, their character, or whatever.  Try and channel that passion, rather than shoot it down with style and sarcasm.
• Most staff should focus more on facilitating, less on enforcement.  Code, and tell stories.
• Promote staff and player engagement outside of clan management.  How about regular clan staff-player meetings, just to shoot the shit during the World Series, or to talk about different aspects of the clan on an OOC basis?

The first two are pretty self explanatory, the third one seems like pure gold to me.  There's a reason workplaces encourage team members to go out and have a drink after work, or plan team building events.  It's so people build an "out of office" rapport with one another.   Anyway we can simulate that would go a long way in improving the community at large.

Yeah, I love the post myself, and I think sometimes we have some very good, passionate players, who could stand to take the player advice section to heart. All these points taken together, and I hope to see the ninja-edited version once he's done, would cause some very needed change in player-staff interactions, it would be idealistic to say I'd hope it'd fix all problems, but I think it'd steer clear of a lot of unneeded and unwanted conflict and waste.

Quote from: Old Kank on November 04, 2015, 02:20:04 PMUnderstand that when players get upset about stuff, it's probably because they're passionate about this game, their character, or whatever.  Try and channel that passion, rather than shoot it down with style and sarcasm.

I agree with this. I don't think staff always shoots down players when they are upset, by any means. But it has happened before, and I think taking a step back and remembering that the player is upset is worth it. That said, I agree with your end points about what players should be doing. Stop trying to have the last word, and also... Remember that staff are people too. If you can, wait to make your request until you're not angry. Seriously, a calm, well-thought out complaint or response to staff is only going to benefit you. Extra angry emotion doesn't do anything positive (even if I know it's super tempting sometimes).

QuoteMost staff should focus more on facilitating, less on enforcement.  Code, and tell stories.

I guess I don't get where the idea comes from that staff isn't doing this already. You talk about the need to change culture--Isn't the player assumption that staff is somehow just sitting around, doing nothing productive, just waiting to punish people one of the ideas that could use changing? I mean, we've had staff working on introducing a lot of new things lately. I also feel like there have been RPTs in the world of late that have been a result of staff actions.

Could staff do more with plots like some players have suggested? Sure, some of the plot suggestions here have been good. But the way your suggestion is phrased makes it sound like they're not already coding, animating, and telling stories. That's just not the case.

QuoteGet out of the business of RP critiquing entirely.  We can do workshops on the GDB or in special in-game sessions if people feel really strongly about wanting feedback.

Well, I don't know if that suggestion will work either. I guess it depends on what you mean by "RP critique". Are we talking account notes? Are we talking karma review feedback?

Account notes help staff keep track of what a player is doing, positive and negative. That's important.

Karma reviews are normally about a player wanting to know if they've earned more karma. Usually, this involves feedback on their RP. I mean, if I submitted a karma review and was declined, I'd certainly want feedback, and to know why, and to see how I could improve. I can only imagine other people feel the same way.

So I guess I'm just not sure what you're getting at here.

QuoteAccount and player notes should be based exclusively on objective data.

I agree that the tone in some notes could be used to make them more neutral, but I don't know if it's possible to have a note that everyone agrees is "objective". That's just the nature of the beast.

QuoteSet up a thorough enforcement policy for offenses that steps outside the veil of staff-player secrecy and empowers players.  Set up a system of warnings that ranges from, "We noticed something fishy; feel free to submit an explanation to your clan staff," to "This is your third and final warning, if this behavior continues, a formal complaint will be sent to Nyr and the enforcement team."  If you're going to accuse someone of doing something wrong, you have to bring them into the conversation as an equal partner.  Do it person to person, not player to great and powerful Oz. Do it on Teamspeak, or Skype if desired.  Include an appeals process, and an option for impartial third party mediation, not a peer, friend, and co-volunteer of the great and powerful Oz.

Well, okay, I like the idea of what you're getting at--The idea is to avoid accusations, to start approachable, let people explain, and then ramp it up as needed. That's a great goal.

I don't know that there could be a comprehensive policy for every infraction, but I guess there could be an attempt at opening up a conversation in a specific way.

QuoteEngage with players differently, enable players to assist with the game in ways that share the workload.  Minimize the distinction between player and staff and give players the benefit of the doubt based on their experience and participation.  How about: player, volunteer, assistant, builder, legend, storyteller, administrator, producer

In what ways are you hoping that this system would better able players to assist?

Staff do put out general calls for projects when they need general submissions. Sometimes they ask players for assistance on this or that as well, when they're hoping for it. In addition, there was a "Builder" rank added for those who aren't staff but are helping staff make things--That new rank was a direct result of player's requesting to help.

I'm all for ways to contribute more, I'm just not sure what system would work better or what contributions you want people to be able to make.

QuotePromote staff and player engagement outside of clan management.  How about regular clan staff-player meetings, just to shoot the shit during the World Series, or to talk about different aspects of the clan on an OOC basis?

I think this happens sometimes. Anybody else remember when staff got together IRL on the staff retreat, and advertised how they were going to be drunk on Teamspeak? Good times.

Maybe this could be done more often, but I think it's seen some activity already.

He's implied he's still in the ninja-edit phase, that said...

I thought it important to take note of because of what players can take away from it, and how they might communicate with staff. Now, Old Kank is not proposing anything untested or unproven, positive reinforcement works astonishingly well on social animals like canines, I don't see why a punishment culture need persist, unless, the circumstances absolutely require it. Staff are in a position of power, it's causing discontent to some people, who, have no desire to be in power but see the bile and blood of the past transactions.

I mean, then there's newer players, who, if they aren't put off by the elitist attitudes of our current players, may soon be, subjected to the futility of disputing with those well established... I mean, what do you expect to come from that? Oh, here's a kudos for playing your role to the hilt, here's a sprinkle of appreciation, and here's a heaping helping of shit, hope you can swim. I'm sure the ones who persevere feel stronger for it, but I think we could do for more smaller plots that make newer players feel more involved, because only an idiot thinks they're not going to be viciously murdered one day. I'm not saying everyone who drowns is someone worth saving, only a few of them.

Quote from: Fujikoma on November 04, 2015, 09:25:19 PM
but I think we could do for more smaller plots that make newer players feel more involved,

I think this warrants a "second". Nobody is saying code changes and plots aren't happening. Of course they are. But they're not happening to me (me as in, the general person complaining about these things). In 10 years of playing this game, I think I've seen an animation maybe... not even a handful of times, personally. And the few times I've wished up because I need something, it takes 20-30 minutes and often ends with a "Nobody is around that is able to help with that".

Now imagine a newbie, who hears you can 'wish all' and get some staff/wizard interaction to make the world come alive, but they can't. Because plots. Because sponsored roles. Because other players. Smaller plots that they can be a part of, that aren't "elitist" and that anyone can be a part of just by asking. MOST vets are pretty cool with understanding "This guy is new, lets let him in a bit" but not everyone is, and not everyone really understands how to "get attention".

Now. Seriously. Pay attention to me.

One of my first actions IG, seriously, was to try and mark you as my territory, I almost got tossed into the cesspool.

I giggled hysterically.

Reply, um, can we yet mention the G guy?

Sober up ;)

Quote from: Taven on November 04, 2015, 09:06:01 PM
<lots of stuff>

TL;DR:  Right now the divide between players and staff is black and white, Us and Them, but I think we should stop thinking in such terms.  I think we should try and preserve story secrets, but spread administrative power and authority around to the community at large, and restrict rule enforcement to a very select few people in very select circumstances.

If you want to get philosophical, light a bowl and have a seat: 

People frequently say, "staff are players too," but what's the difference between players and staff?  Staff are... what?  More knowledgeable?  More mature?  More creative?  Better writers?  Better administrators?  Better players?  (And what would that entail, to be a better player?)  Or are they simply volunteers who have been chosen, and granted access to the game's secrets and authorities?

The simple truth is that staff members don't have a uniquely defining trait beyond the access and authority they've been granted, and I don't think many staff members would claim otherwise.  But this gets tricky now, because staff try and wield power - benevolently OR maliciously - over other players, without any intrinsic authority.  They're just players, after all.

Staff get into rocky territory when they try and judge people.  Some people just don't like being judged.  Some people don't like not being judged.  It's often a lose-lose position to be in, and once you put yourself in that position, you have dig deeper to defend it.  I think staff should get out of the business of being judges.

For an example of what I'm getting at, scroll back a few posts to where a Storyteller moderated a post and temporarily locked the thread.  Let me ask you something: Regardless of whether or not the actions were justified, why is a GM - a guy who's job in this community is to facilitate stories - trying to dictate what can and can't be said?  Remember, I'm not asking whether it was right or wrong.  All I'm asking is why a Storyteller is also a forum moderator?  Is it because storytellers make good forum moderators, or is it because it's a job that needs doing, and Storyteller is just a fancy title for low-level crowd controller?  Would it have made a difference if the post was moderated by a player?  Bonus follow-up question:  Does being a jerk on a forum mean you're a "bad player," and should it have ramifications for a game that is, ostensibly, a separate entity?  And should cops in schools help teachers enforce classroom rules?

Moving away from authority, let's talk contributions.  Currently, staff seem to micro-manage player contributions.  Why?  The administrative response is probably, "We need to restrict these things for quality control and/or time management purposes," but that is so short-sighted.  Think about players as staff-in-training, or volunteers without story secrets, and then we can have an entirely different set of conversations.  Instead of players asking, "Staff, can you do this or that," players can start stepping up to the plate themselves.

Regarding judging players: We don't really have criteria for judging players beyond whether they follow the documentation and play a character that is compelling. All kinds of roleplaying styles can achieve this. I enjoy watching PCs who are heavy on dialogue but keep emotes short. I enjoy watching PCs with long and meaningful emotes. I enjoy watching PCs who use think and feel extensively. I enjoy reading the occasional biography entry. But most of all, I enjoy a PC that just fits into the game world perfectly. Someone who's read all about Zalanthas and follows it completely, even if it's somehow to their PC's detriment. I enjoy watching veterans do this and I enjoy watching newbies beginning to grasp this. That, to me, is being a good roleplayer in Armageddon, and I don't judge anyone's RP beyond that. This matches our broad criteria on "ability to roleplay" karma (note that you don't have to hit all these points to prove your ability to roleplay, they're just broad guidelines):

Quote
-         Proven ability to take on a character type
-         Demonstrates a multilevel character development
-         Ability to convey character nuances to other players
-         Acknowledges the virtual world
-         Plays character true to form, even in difficult situations
-           Plays character for the sake of the game rather than the sake of the character (ie, does not disregard roleplay for code in order to "win" just because he or she "can")
-         Player makes good use of emotes
-         Uses say emotes
-         Uses bio to detail character history and motivations
-         Uses think and feel to flesh out character
-         Adds 'flavor' to their character through accents, affectations etc
-           Shows understanding of the distinction between in-character actions and out-of-character motivations

Regarding locking threads: it's common practice to lock a thread, perform administrative actions (such as moderation/bans) and then unlock a thread, so that additional replies aren't added while in the process of moderating. It can muck up the works and make splitting threads or posts weird. As far as why we moderate, that is to enforce the GDB rules, not in the interest of wielding power over players but in maintaining a discussion forum for reasoned discussion by all.

Regarding contributions: We only really have a hard restriction on mastercrafts. I think players do a lot to step up otherwise. We have builders that are players, and are an immense help in facilitating the building side of staff plans. We have individual clan staff who follow player plots and do building as needed to support them.

Quote from: Nergal on November 05, 2015, 06:27:17 AM
<more stuff>

I'm just waxing philosophical on the nature of authority.  I think that's the basis of most of the player-staff drama.  Whatever the specific scenario, complaint, or involved parties is just incidental.  I suggest that if the staff want to appeal to players who have left because of player-staff drama, they should consider absolving themselves of as much authority as possible.

Let's go back to contributions, red tape, and starter shops for another example:

Quote from: Nergal on November 05, 2015, 06:27:17 AM
Regarding contributions: We only really have a hard restriction on mastercrafts. I think players do a lot to step up otherwise. We have builders that are players, and are an immense help in facilitating the building side of staff plans. We have individual clan staff who follow player plots and do building as needed to support them.

I've offered to volunteer multiple times over the past ten years, even provided unsolicited help.  I've been told, "no," "no," and "no, thank you."  My favorite was when I offered to be a helper and was told, "No, sorry, we're not accepting helpers at the moment."  Oh, for fuck's sake, are you serious?  I can't help new players because you guys aren't currently accepting helper applications?  lol.  It seems to me that I can take this one of two ways:  1. The staff doesn't want me, personally, to help, or 2. Staffing is a clusterfuck of red tape and pet projects.  Those are both unappealing options, but I'm at a loss for other explanations.

So, Mordiggian says the red tape isn't that bad (Sorry for picking on you, man, it's nothing personal), and cites the 'rinthi starter shops to prove it (awesome work, by the way).  Here's what I saw, as a player:

1.  September 18, 2010:  Adhira announces starter shops in Tuluk.  She states, "This project has been in the works for a long, long time.   It's been through a number of different people who were working on it. ... A small amount of rooms for what was a decent amount of work for a bunch of people."

2.  Two years later.  September 1, 2012:  Adhira announces starter shops in Allanak.  She states, "This is the result of a great deal of work and I hope you all appreciate the effort as much as I do."

3.  Three weeks shy of three years later.  August 12, 2015:  ArmageddonMUD announces starter shops in the 'rinth.  Big thanks to Mordiggian and Co.  Mordiggian says they made 88 items, some NPCs, and some rooms.  He says, and I quote:  "No ridiculous bureaucracy or red tape or extra work."

It took ten people and over five years to what?  Write ~300 items, rooms, and NPCs?  That's roughly one item/room/NPC per week, or one item/room/NPC per staffer every two months.  And there wasn't red tape or bureaucracy?  Do you understand how that sounds?  I understand, staff have lives, it's a volunteer effort, etc.  I'm not complaining or being critical - really, I'm not - but do you understand how frustrating that is to hear, as a player?  How about as a player who has offered to help, and been told "no?"

I don't have anything to add, because Old Kank is absolutely nailing it.  I wish this forum had an upvote button, I'd make 50 accounts and upvote his latest posts 50 times.  And I wouldn't even care if 49 of those accounts got banned for it.

Okay, I lied, I do have something to add.  I've noticed positive changes the last couple of weeks both in-game, and in my OOC communications with staff.  Just because this somewhat negatively leaning thread is still active doesn't mean good things aren't happening, either as a result of it or due to coincidental timing...  Just an open staff kudos to give credit where credit is due.  Please don't let any constructive criticism offered here drag you down.

Quote from: wizturbo on November 05, 2015, 03:36:16 PM
I don't have anything to add, because Old Kank is absolutely nailing it.

agreement quotepyramid for truth and justice and the Armageddon way

I don't have the time or real interest to read back through all the whinging, but Oldkank did you ever apply to be a Staffer during one of the rolecalls?

From Mordiggy's post:

Quote2. I asked if anyone was still actively working on it. Turns out the staffers involved were no longer on the team.

3. I asked if anyone had issues with me taking over the project. All clear!

From what I can tell from the example (which does not address the issue, but it made me curious), this seems to be an issue here?  Is this common?  This could just be phrasing, but this makes it sound like projects are by area rather than by staff member, so that rotations and such can mess with things and leave them unfinished.  Does this mean there are projects that are half-finished but lost priority and are now being bumped down the queue?  That some staffers are interested in something, half-do it, then lose interest and it sits there?  Some explanation of how this went about would be nice, because that could be an easy fix for some improvement, at least in expediency.

I'd like to know about that kind of thing, because like Old Kank was off-handedly referring to...I'm pretty certain there are players that would be willing to take some of that workload of things that are sitting waiting to be finished.

Projects can be by area or by staff member in origination.  Regardless of that the project is usually something that one or two people take on as theirs.

The rinth starter room project was a project that a couple of people were interested in working on and doing so. They left staff, no one else was interested in taking up the project till Mordiggian asked about it.  We don't make people work on things they aren't interested in, we try and let them do projects that they have an affinity for. Similarly while we will set time frames and try and help them get things to completion we let people do their projects at their own pace. Some people work faster than others, so they can have an idea, do the building, whatever else in a week and get their project in. Some people like to take more time or intersperse the work with other things so they may take several weeks to work on a similar project.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 05, 2015, 03:40:47 PM
I don't have the time or real interest to read back through all the whinging, but Oldkank did you ever apply to be a Staffer during one of the rolecalls?

I did a while back.  In 2014, maybe?  That was one of the times when I offered to help, and was told, "no," because I had a negative account note.  That's how I learned I had a negative account note.  I don't know what it says, don't care to read it, and don't want to drag the conversation back around to that subject!

But you could have asked. Could have had that conversation. Maybe could have had it expunged. And then you could have started contributing like you say you want to.



Instead it's just more of what this thread has been derailed by: entitled whining from people who want to "contribute" and play, but only on their own terms and if they don't get what they want its other peoples' fault.

The staff members working on the starter shop project left the team.

Unfortunately, if there is nobody working on the project, other team members are not always in a position to pick up the slack. Like Taijan mentioned previously, we all have real lives and we all have a finite amount of time to spend on our favorite internet bone sword simulator.

I believe Anaiah was in charge of the Rinth shops in 2010, for example. She left the team, and that didn't happen. In 2012, Italis did some work on them before leaving the team. It's not a case of one person doing one item a week for five years. It's a case of the people who volunteered to undertake the projects no longer participating as staff in any capacity. The first thing I did when I revived the project was enlist players (builders) to get it done in a timely fashion.

I think the 'red tape' argument would hold more weight if it was a case of some administrative process resulting in the delay but that's not really the case.

On the player end of things, I totally get that it seems frustrating and slow, especially if you've offered to help. But let's continue with the starter shop example. Let's say you volunteer and submit 30 different starter items. A staff member still needs to review them for typos or other issues (basic editorial review, I don't think anyone has an issue with this?) and then they still need to be built in-game. Because the game does not exist in a database that can be edited outside of the game, all item/room/NPC building happens in the same text editor we all use to write characters, books, board posts, etc. So while yes, your submission would have handled the creative aspect (which is an admittedly big part of the process) it doesn't handle the technical details and if nobody is available/willing to commit time to the project... it doesn't do any good to have 30 descriptions and nobody building them.

Quote from: Armaddict on November 05, 2015, 03:52:05 PM

From Mordiggy's post:

Quote2. I asked if anyone was still actively working on it. Turns out the staffers involved were no longer on the team.

3. I asked if anyone had issues with me taking over the project. All clear!

From what I can tell from the example (which does not address the issue, but it made me curious), this seems to be an issue here?  Is this common?  This could just be phrasing, but this makes it sound like projects are by area rather than by staff member, so that rotations and such can mess with things and leave them unfinished.  Does this mean there are projects that are half-finished but lost priority and are now being bumped down the queue?  That some staffers are interested in something, half-do it, then lose interest and it sits there?  Some explanation of how this went about would be nice, because that could be an easy fix for some improvement, at least in expediency.

I'd like to know about that kind of thing, because like Old Kank was off-handedly referring to...I'm pretty certain there are players that would be willing to take some of that workload of things that are sitting waiting to be finished.

When someone wants to start a project, they write a quick post (or lengthy, if they feel it's necessary) and post it on our proposal board. This doesn't really apply to things like dropping in a new clan NPC or adjusting an item or room, but rather real meaty projects etc. Usually that person is the project leader, or project sponsor and they play the role a project leader might in a professional environment, ensuring deadlines are met, ensuring a cohesive vision, etc. Typically, people propose projects in their own staffing areas, but there's not a hard rule about that. The rest of the team has an opportunity to voice concerns, brainstorm ideas, volunteer to join the team for that project, and so on.

Sometimes ideas don't survive this phase. This is not a bad thing. Some ideas just don't cut it, or sometimes the time isn't right. Sometimes the person proposing the idea doesn't have time to commit to see it through, or sometimes they need additional assistance that can't be promised. If a project is greenlit though, it's now up to the people on that project team to see it through. Sometimes that doesn't happen, and yeah, that sucks when turnover kills a project. Steps have been taken to reduce the number of projects that are started and not finished, such as a probation period for new storytellers before they can create their own proposals (though they are free to help with other proposals, or do what I did and cheat by having their admin post a proposal for them ;) ). Sometimes a proposal might get posted but an admin will step in and say "Hey, you've started three other projects and they're not done yet. Maybe finish those before you take on another?" As a rule, we also try to avoid one person leading more than one 'big' project at a time.

With all of this in mind, we can, and often do solicit players for assistance. Our builders have been doing great work and we often ask players in our clans if they'd like to submit descriptions/items/whatever for relevant projects. This can and does expedite processes.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 05, 2015, 04:07:25 PM
But you could have asked. Could have had that conversation. Maybe could have had it expunged. And then you could have started contributing like you say you want to.



Instead it's just more of what this thread has been derailed by: entitled whining from people who want to "contribute" and play, but only on their own terms and if they don't get what they want its other peoples' fault.

Q: Have you applied for staff?

A: Yes, but I didn't get it since I have an account note

Q: Ah, entitlement

...

Seriously though?

Quote from: wizturbo on November 05, 2015, 03:36:16 PM
I've noticed positive changes the last couple of weeks both in-game, and in my OOC communications with staff.

I'd be curious: have any of the suggestions in this thread have been taken up or adopted?  I've heard a lot of staff say that they do that already, and a couple times a staff member said they liked an idea and were tossing it upstairs...  Perhaps a small write-up when staff has time of what suggestions were taken up would be helpful

Also, just for my own sake, I'd like to know what the official staff position is on account notes:

1) do all negative account notes (be they 'account' or 'character') get e-mailed to players?  (This is what Euronymous's post suggests.)  

2) do only negative account notes that are 'account' get e-mailed to players? (This is what seidhr's posts state.)

Thanks!
(And maybe a word or two on the difference between an 'account' and a 'character' note.)

Quote from: Patuk on November 05, 2015, 04:11:31 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 05, 2015, 04:07:25 PM
But you could have asked. Could have had that conversation. Maybe could have had it expunged. And then you could have started contributing like you say you want to.



Instead it's just more of what this thread has been derailed by: entitled whining from people who want to "contribute" and play, but only on their own terms and if they don't get what they want its other peoples' fault.

Q: Have you applied for staff?

A: Yes, but I didn't get it since I have an account note and didn't take any steps to have that looked at, discussed, or maybe even personally grow from the experience. Instead I just moved back into the background until a time when I could step forward and criticize others from a position of zero responsibility.

Q: Ah, entitlement

...

Seriously though?

ftfy

This is your pointed reminder:

Less snark and meanness. More constructive conversation.

Old Kank, the Comm100 chat system we use to talk to new players has a limited number of "slots" available for support personnel.  I agree that if staff don't want you personally to help the game, or have some issue with that idea, they should probably open up a frank discussion with you about that.  Nothing stings quite like wanting to help and being rejected and not knowing the real details as to why.  But just to let you know that there is a coded limitation for how many people can currently be a helper.

Also, to briefly speak up in defense of staff...(*braces for impact*) Players can't code items into the game.  Players can't set up shopkeepers or build crafting recipes or run tests to make sure something isn't going to crash the game or do the million data entry key presses that are necessary in order to bring something to life in Armageddon.  To do that you need to be able to access the staff side of the game, and I have no doubt that the actual, physical act of keying all that stuff in is time consuming. Yeah, players can take care of writing descriptions, and I will admit that is a big part of it.  I've submitted things to the game nearly every time they've been asked for. But I'm sure that that is far from the only part of Making Armageddon.

Maybe the answer is to hire more staffers whose focus is completing projects.  Maybe staff need to reach out to players more if they think they need help.  I don't know, I'm not saying there's no room for improvement there.  But if we see projects like the starter shops take five years to complete, I imagine it's not because nothing is getting done or changing in the game world.  Armageddon is a hobby and a game, and just like absolutely every facet of the game, if you aren't enjoying yourself as a staff member, I don't see any reason why you should have to continue staffing, even if that does mean a project falls by the wayside.  It seems like there are a lot of projects in the pipeline, and I'm sure some of those may fall by the wayside too, or take what seems like a disproportionate amount of time to complete.  But a lot of them won't, and we can enjoy them.

And hey, BadSkeelz. Ease it back.

Please don't let people like BadSkeelz make you abandon that thread, Old Kank. You're bringing in a lot of good points and Staff are obviously reading/thinking about it all.

Quote from: LauraMars on November 05, 2015, 04:16:47 PM
Old Kank, the Comm100 chat system we use to talk to new players has a limited number of "slots" available for support personnel.  I agree that if staff don't want you personally to help the game, or have some issue with that idea, they should probably open up a frank discussion with you about that.  Nothing stings quite like wanting to help and being rejected and not knowing the real details as to why.  But just to let you know that there is a coded limitation for how many people can currently be a helper.

Yeah the Helper chat only has a limited number of slots for the version we're using (free or very cheap) - I believe they try to upsell you to a paid version, but we make it work with the free version because we don't really need the bigger and badder version.  If it makes you feel any better, I'm not a helper either!

Thanks for the replies, Diggy and Adhira.

Even with the explanation, though, I do tend to agree that when projects are taking more than years, there's some streamlining or delegation that could be done.  I'm one of the players who is actually enjoying the game quite a bit right now (and for the last fifteen years), and my gripes are few.  If you guys don't think that several years for such projects is a little...meh, then that is, in the end, up to you.  I think that's a definite area of relatively easy improvement, staff-side though.  Then again...that's only been certain projects, which I don't know about, so I'm not exactly in the know about it, so take that with a grain of salt.

(Oh, and diggy...good work on getting the player-builders on that project.  I think that's an important thing.  Very important.)

Quote from: Old Kank on November 05, 2015, 04:04:58 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 05, 2015, 03:40:47 PM
I don't have the time or real interest to read back through all the whinging, but Oldkank did you ever apply to be a Staffer during one of the rolecalls?

I did a while back.  In 2014, maybe?....

You'd be a good addition to staff, IMO.

I think there is a little misconception here. I think players aren't allowed to code/builds things to the game not so much players can't. The game code is old but we are moving into the age of the internet of things. Everyone can learn to code, and I recommend everyone to look up a programming langauge and try because it looks great on a resume, plenty of help on youtube for even the most clueless of people.

Now, does the staff want random people to handle their code, potentially steal it and make armageddon clones? No and they shouldn't.

However, I still believe smaller coding jobs and other work can and should be easily delegating to the playerbase as we have seen seen by the new builder roles.  I do believe the staff takes on too much for themselves needlessly when they can trust other people to do just as good of a job as they can. I think that many times staff members really just do want to do all the work themselves,solo, but unfortunately RL happen and it just causes burn out. I would love to see more work delegated, especially as Nessalin continues to clean up the old code.

Our newbie helper system is ancient though, I think this is one part we can really do better in. As I mentioned before we should really get an in-game system going to ensure a newbie gets the best experience possible.

Quote from: Dresan on November 05, 2015, 04:51:56 PM
I think there is a little misconception here. I think players aren't allowed to code/builds things to the game not so much players can't. The game code is old but we are moving into the age of the internet of things. Everyone can learn to code, and I recommend everyone to look up a programming langauge and try because it looks great on a resume, plenty of help on youtube for even the most clueless of people.

That's what I meant...I'm sure everybody who plays Armageddon also has the mental capacity to create items and npcs.  Diku building is dead easy, it isn't even learning a programming language or anything of similar complexity.  It's just that most players won't have access to that, probably because it means also having access to a whole lot of other things that might be considered spoilers.  

What would be super cool is some kind of web-based building tool that players could access like the request tool.  Some simple web form that you could fill in for creating objects, rooms, npcs, with fields for everything relevant.  Imagine being a staffer putting out a call for <whatever>, and then being able to log in to the staff console, approve submissions from players, and have the act of approval be the process that creates the new <whatever> in the actual game itself.

that would be dreamy

SO JUST LET ME DREAM

Quote from: LauraMars on November 05, 2015, 04:16:47 PM
Old Kank, the Comm100 chat system we use to talk to new players has a limited number of "slots" available for support personnel.

That's good to know.  I wish staff had just said that to me at the time.  It's not something I'm burning with resentment over, but it was another "wtf, really?" moment that made me question what's happening in staff-land.  Communication is key, as has been said previously.

On player contributions:
I know building and reviewing and implementing things are a labor-intensive process.  My goal here is not to suggest staff are terrible people for not getting things done in a timely manner.  My suggestion is more along the lines of empowering players, and blurring the lines between staff who have ALL the responsibility, and the players who hungrily line up to the trough.

For example, why is building a limited role?  Why not raise the builder cap from 3 to 30?  Or 300?  If someone has been playing for a few years, and they have a good sense of the setting, why not give them freedom to pursue their own projects?  Why do projects have to be purely the domain of staff?

I'm not suggesting a building free-for-all; implement quality control measures.  But you have all this creative energy that sits unused because players are unwilling or unable to put in the effort to do things via their characters. That's a shame.

Is there a part-time builder role?  I don't want game secrets, I don't want to scour the IDB, I don't want to retire my character.  Give me freedom to work on small projects independently, and seek approval for them once they're finished.  If I don't finish them, it's no harm, no foul.  Put my name in the hat for big projects that aren't likely to affect my character.  Let me fix typos, rather than report them and wait for someone else fix them.

Better still, give me a script template that will let me write a text file that staff members can plug into the game and automatically build items/rooms/NPCs that I've written, to avoid most of the work that Mordiggian referred to.  I've built on MUDs before, and it can be streamlined pretty easily, unless Arm has some odd technical restrictions against that.

This is the age of wikipedia and Minecraft.  Crowd-source some of this stuff.

I don't trust this community much more than any other online community, so I'm leery of crowdsourcing direct access to "Fix" whatever.

That said, Old Kank, are you aware of the Builder Role? It might be what you're looking for.

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,49193.0.html

I don't know if they're taking any new ones on at the moment, so you might have to wait, but you should apply next time. And if that account note comes up again, try asking about it. It might be ancient or no longer relevant.

Quote from: nauta on November 05, 2015, 04:13:01 PM

Quote from: wizturbo on November 05, 2015, 03:36:16 PM
I've noticed positive changes the last couple of weeks both in-game, and in my OOC communications with staff.

I'd be curious: have any of the suggestions in this thread have been taken up or adopted?  I've heard a lot of staff say that they do that already, and a couple times a staff member said they liked an idea and were tossing it upstairs...  Perhaps a small write-up when staff has time of what suggestions were taken up would be helpful

It's probably way too early to get an answer to this. Staff have their own board to discuss things, and I imagine some of the ideas are being discussed there and will be for a while to come.

It's a good question though, I know I'd like to hear the answer. Someone should remember to ask it again in a couple weeks.

Hold on....

We say that what we really want form staff is animation IC. We also want excitement, plots and such. We also want new stuff..rooms items better code for this or that.

All of that takes people, and it takes people to supervise the people and make sure they don't muck it all up.

Many new staff have been added.  BUILDERS ( I wantz to be one n' I can rights really good.) have been added. I think staff are trying to expand so that they can do all of the above stuff.  Yet realistically folks, a volunteer staff with volunteer admin can only expand so far without adding on more admin positions. It takes experienced folks to do admin, and not only that, to -volunteer- to do admin which is the suckiest part of any organization. I run an INGO and I know about admin.

Many of us want to help. I want to help. Yet it may well be that the help I can offer is not the help most needed. Does there need to be improvement? Yes, and I have a post way up at the top of this stack that outlines things we could do as a community. Yet I have a hard time thinking that there are no restrictions on the staff side, and that it is simply a lack of desire or care that keeps some things from happening.

So give them a break.  Especially Diggity dawg.  be nice to Diggity dawg or I will -get- you and you little dog too.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 05, 2015, 05:22:47 PM
I don't trust this community much more than any other online community, so I'm leery of crowdsourcing direct access to "Fix" whatever.

There's no need for "direct access".

Here's a simple idea - Staff creates a new webpage with a little web app (easiest thing in the world to code/find) and sometime they post stuff that they need.

Hey guys, we need descs for pair of boots that would fit in the 'rinth.

(players have this little square thingie where they can enter a desc and then they hit Send! and it transfer that desc into a pretty format that Staff have access to - like a web form of sort)

They take the descs they like and use them and they ditch the ones they don't like. Bored players sitting at the Gaj now have something to do, write descs for things Staff need and Staff have something less they need to do, to write descs for 300 objects.

Need a new room? Don't even have to post it on the GDB and ask specific builders for it, just post what you need on that page and let the players do their magic.

We're all winners!

The builder program is in a pilot mode.  There have been, and continue to be, little discoveries along the way that are making us adjust how things work for builders.  This is because of how the game security works for builders as well as from a process standpoint.

I believe the expectation is that we eventually will have more builders - once we feel like these kinks are worked out, but I fear we'll never get to the point where everyone who wants to can make a builder character and just crank out stuff.  I do agree that some web-based building tools would be awesome.  That might be a way to bridge the gap where we could approve submissions and map them to empty objects/rooms/npcs in the game.  The transition from web-page output to the game would be the hardest part to manage.

Comparing us to Minecraft isn't really fair, since Minecraft was designed from the ground-up for people to be able to build stuff, collaborate, crowdsource, whatever (and isn't 20+ years old, too).  The game's architecture (Diku at its heart, not just Arm) doesn't really lend itself to that because of how vnums are assigned, zone ranges, and so on.

Zone Ranges?

Zone Ranger?

ZOAN RANGER!  That is it! Zoan is an Illuminati agent! And so is Seidhr!

Quote from: seidhr on November 05, 2015, 05:37:14 PM
The builder program is in a pilot mode.  There have been, and continue to be, little discoveries along the way that are making us adjust how things work for builders.  This is because of how the game security works for builders as well as from a process standpoint.

I believe the expectation is that we eventually will have more builders - once we feel like these kinks are worked out, but I fear we'll never get to the point where everyone who wants to can make a builder character and just crank out stuff.  I do agree that some web-based building tools would be awesome.  That might be a way to bridge the gap where we could approve submissions and map them to empty objects/rooms/npcs in the game.  The transition from web-page output to the game would be the hardest part to manage.

Comparing us to Minecraft isn't really fair, since Minecraft was designed from the ground-up for people to be able to build stuff, collaborate, crowdsource, whatever (and isn't 20+ years old, too).  The game's architecture (Diku at its heart, not just Arm) doesn't really lend itself to that because of how vnums are assigned, zone ranges, and so on.

Start with the "simple" stuff.

Allow us to write descs for stuff that you want to create but don't have the time for, like 50 bone dagger descs, Nakki rooftops descs or whatever.

So much wasted opportunity for both sides in not implementing such a simple system.

Someone who is bored in game could just go on that web app page and write a few descs while they wait for some rp.

Even though I don't play I could go and write a couple of descs as well instead of writing dumb posts on the GDB (see, we're all winners!)

It's nothing that anyone can abuse, unless the fact that there's a need for 50 descs of bone daggers in the 'rinth could be considered an issue.

Quote from: Malken on November 05, 2015, 05:33:02 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on November 05, 2015, 05:22:47 PM
I don't trust this community much more than any other online community, so I'm leery of crowdsourcing direct access to "Fix" whatever.

There's no need for "direct access".

Here's a simple idea - Staff creates a new webpage with a little web app (easiest thing in the world to code/find) and sometime they post stuff that they need.

Hey guys, we need descs for pair of boots that would fit in the 'rinth.

(players have this little square thingie where they can enter a desc and then they hit Send! and it transfer that desc into a pretty format that Staff have access to - like a web form of sort)

They take the descs they like and use them and they ditch the ones they don't like. Bored players sitting at the Gaj now have something to do, write descs for things Staff need and Staff have something less they need to do, to write descs for 300 objects.

Need a new room? Don't even have to post it on the GDB and ask specific builders for it, just post what you need on that page and let the players do their magic.

We're all winners!

You know you could just do this, right now. Think about it? What's stopping you? You need to procrastinate some school related task, I'm sure. Just put together a crowd sourced description website that lets people list requests and others to submit responses.

Maybe Arm staff decides to use it, maybe they don't and you can pawn it off to some other game.

do it do it do it do it DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT

Quote from: Narf on November 05, 2015, 05:43:01 PM
do it do it do it do it DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT

Do you know how much textually described penises I would have to read through before I'd get one decent desc?  :-\

You would need to be logged on from your Armageddon account to access it, of course.

But seriously, if you have minimal web experience (ask Delirium), this is like the easiest thing ever to implement.

I just want to say I havn't heard as much "whinging" (sic) in the past few pages, as much as some might think there is. I don't know how much we're working on "retaining" at this point, but there are good ideas.

Concurrent with the builders/etc... I'm assuming Raesanos' RMBT or whatever it was wouldn't work with Arm's current code at all? Or could be modified by an enterprising player with some coding skills to "do most of the work" for staff so its more copy and paste, and less typing and mistakes?

I agree with Riev. While some ideas have been passionate, they are still just suggestions not demands. This is just a brainstorming thread, after all and I think people are just being honest about whats bothered them or caused them to think about leaving in the past.  And no one, well not many have gone the 'do this and I leave route' of arguments.

Ultimately communication with staff has improved greatly from what it used to be in the past, which is why people here are so passionate about their ideas and thoughts.

I honestly think this thread has been somewhat therapeutic for this community.   :)

Quote from: Malken on November 05, 2015, 05:46:21 PM

Quote from: Narf on November 05, 2015, 05:43:01 PM
do it do it do it do it DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT

Do you know how much textually described penises I would have to read through before I'd get one decent desc?  :-\

According to my data the real desc/penis ratio is about 5.3.

You'll get a few butts in there too, but you can take it.

If we get the crowd source thing I hope we don't get punished.
Because half of my entries will be dicks.
Half of them will not be.
And a small infinitesimal amount will be dick related objects.

Quote from: Old Kank on November 05, 2015, 06:08:48 AMIf you want to get philosophical, light a bowl and have a seat: 

People frequently say, "staff are players too," but what's the difference between players and staff?  Staff are... what?  More knowledgeable?  More mature?  More creative?  Better writers?  Better administrators?  Better players?  (And what would that entail, to be a better player?)  Or are they simply volunteers who have been chosen, and granted access to the game's secrets and authorities?

The simple truth is that staff members don't have a uniquely defining trait beyond the access and authority they've been granted, and I don't think many staff members would claim otherwise.  But this gets tricky now, because staff try and wield power - benevolently OR maliciously - over other players, without any intrinsic authority.  They're just players, after all.

Yes, staff members are people who have been granted--entrusted--with authority and powers that your standard player doesn't have, so that they can help run the game, help administrate and facilitate, help tell stories and breathe life into the world. Sometimes they're not the most knowledgeable, or the most mature, or the most creative. But players expect them to be above and beyond your standard player.

For example, if staffers aren't the most mature, you see players complain about it--Why? Because they should be. Player expectations are often that staff is mature and polite, even if they aren't themselves. I don't think it's wrong to set high expectations for staff, because they are entrusted with all this authority and power, and they should use it in a way that is responsible and respectful. I also think oftentimes players can be more polite (which I think you also agree with, based on previous posts).

So why do people say "staff are players too"? It's because of this idea that when you become staff you somehow transform into a horrible brain-eating monster out to ruin all player fun and rain shit down from on high. They're countering that idea. They're saying "we play this game too, we love this game, and we know what it's like to have been in your shoes".

That was sort of a ramble. I guess what I'm saying is that I agree that I think the idea of a black/white player/staff divide should change. But I also think that staff has been working to take steps to try and help with this, and there's been a lot of movement in the right direction. I'm not saying it's perfect, but I think that instead of complaining about what hasn't been done, we as players can appreciate what has been done, even if we have further suggestions for how to yet improve things.

QuoteStaff get into rocky territory when they try and judge people.  Some people just don't like being judged.  Some people don't like not being judged.  It's often a lose-lose position to be in, and once you put yourself in that position, you have dig deeper to defend it. I think staff should get out of the business of being judges.

[GDB moderating example]

I guess my take on this is that when there's a rule, someone has to have the authority to act when it's broken. If you don't have someone with that authority, and there aren't any consequences, why have rules at all?

Staff has power to moderate the forums. We also have player moderators, as well, who are also enabled to moderate the forums. Why does it matter who moderates the forums, be it staff or player moderator, if a rule has been broken? Honestly, if someone's being a jerk on the GDB, I just think it should be handled by whoever can at the time. That's not something I'm going to get in a huff about.

QuoteMoving away from authority, let's talk contributions.  Currently, staff seem to micro-manage player contributions.  Why?  The administrative response is probably, "We need to restrict these things for quality control and/or time management purposes," but that is so short-sighted.  Think about players as staff-in-training, or volunteers without story secrets, and then we can have an entirely different set of conversations.  Instead of players asking, "Staff, can you do this or that," players can start stepping up to the plate themselves.

I kind of feel like I already touched on this in my last post.


Final Thoughts: When we talk about the staff-player divide and current black/white philosophy, let's stop and consider how we're contributing to it as well, instead of attributing it all to staff. Let's agree that staff should be polite and respectful, but also that we as players should do the same. Let's step back and take a look at how staff is already doing some of what we want, see what they're worked on and accomplished for us, and thank them for that as we make new suggestions and offer feedback. Remember that while staff do have authority, they're also players and love the game.

That idea is actually pretty awesome Malken.

I think the mechanical difficulty of building on Arm is at the root of much player discontent - almost all the complaints of the "static world" faction.  Not writing descriptions (not everybody's strong suit, but hardly anybody on staff totally sucks at it), but dealing with all the commands, the limited object-list-searching (since objects aren't in a Real Database), the beloved in-game text editor, the room linking, all the unknowable gotchas.

A lot of the staff's caution with taking on big world-changing plots--or anything at all that's building-related--comes from the fact that it's very slow to bust out a 200-room change and very hard to get everything right.  (Imagine the Diku-wizard-fu it must have taken to pull off the gith invasion of Allanak.) Malken's idea doesn't seem terrible, but, on the other hand, you're outsourcing the fun/creative part of building without alleviating any of the rotten button-pushing.

When building is done with a web app pointed at an SQL database, I think we'll see some surprising changes across the board.

Until then, well, seriously: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50062.0.html

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on November 05, 2015, 09:25:33 PM
I think the mechanical difficulty of building on Arm is at the root of much player discontent - almost all the complaints of the "static world" faction.  Not writing descriptions (not everybody's strong suit, but hardly anybody on staff totally sucks at it), but dealing with all the commands, the limited object-list-searching (since objects aren't in a Real Database), the beloved in-game text editor, the room linking, all the unknowable gotchas.

A lot of the staff's caution with taking on big world-changing plots--or anything at all that's building-related--comes from the fact that it's very slow to bust out a 200-room change and very hard to get everything right.  (Imagine the Diku-wizard-fu it must have taken to pull off the gith invasion of Allanak.) Malken's idea doesn't seem terrible, but, on the other hand, you're outsourcing the fun/creative part of building without alleviating any of the rotten button-pushing.

When building is done with a web app pointed at an SQL database, I think we'll see some surprising changes across the board.

Until then, well, seriously: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50062.0.html

this all of this

Quote from: LauraMars on November 05, 2015, 09:50:13 PM

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on November 05, 2015, 09:25:33 PM[stuff]

this all of this

Yep. +1

Quote from: Taven on November 05, 2015, 09:59:17 PM

Quote from: LauraMars on November 05, 2015, 09:50:13 PM

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on November 05, 2015, 09:25:33 PM[stuff]

this all of this

Yep. +1

I'm wishy washy about this game, and I'm thinking about donating when my check clears tomorrow.

Yes. We'd love to have a web based building tool.

No Raesanos tool doesn't work with our current code base at all. This is why we were going to move to a different code base.

The ultimate goal would be to have a web tool that players can submit their master crafts, room changes, NPCs etc and it will feed directly to the game, saving all the manual entry and button pushing.

Also, just to speak up for the builders we have, they aren't churning out a rooftop description in 5 minutes because our rooftops have scents, echo's, night time descriptions, weather pertinent descriptions and so on. These are real labours of love and I hope people get to experience the awesomeness of them, and other projects that will follow.

As to the question of more builders - yes, I plan to recruit more builders, we've been in testing phase with this. There was a lot to work through in order to make the job functional without setting people to 'full staff member' level (which was what people who were interested in the builder role specifically wanted, limited access).  We also had to work on documentation (and still have a lot more to do!), and other tools to help builders out.

I'm glad for the attention to detail and certainly appreciate it, personally. Scents, time of day, these all add to the setting, ideally, every room would have these, particularly the Gaj (Eugh), but I can see the effort being put forth and support it, wholeheartedly.

I'd put, in order of importance of having scents, the Gaj, the corpsepile, Red's, the butcher's, that place with all the dying thirsty echos, the cuddler. then, well, assuming the rooftops are done, expand scents to the marketplace, then to the rinth, like, the whole rinth. Stables smell like poo, so do latrines, then slowly flesh out all of Allanak. If a blind man could smell his way down the streets, this would be my dream come true. Hit the heaviest areas first, and expand outwards into the bubbles of competing smells.

Quote from: Brytta Léofa on November 05, 2015, 09:25:33 PM
I think the mechanical difficulty of building on Arm is at the root of much player discontent - almost all the complaints of the "static world" faction.  Not writing descriptions (not everybody's strong suit, but hardly anybody on staff totally sucks at it), but dealing with all the commands, the limited object-list-searching (since objects aren't in a Real Database), the beloved in-game text editor, the room linking, all the unknowable gotchas.

A lot of the staff's caution with taking on big world-changing plots--or anything at all that's building-related--comes from the fact that it's very slow to bust out a 200-room change and very hard to get everything right.  (Imagine the Diku-wizard-fu it must have taken to pull off the gith invasion of Allanak.) Malken's idea doesn't seem terrible, but, on the other hand, you're outsourcing the fun/creative part of building without alleviating any of the rotten button-pushing.

When building is done with a web app pointed at an SQL database, I think we'll see some surprising changes across the board.

Until then, well, seriously: http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,50062.0.html

This isn't invented to be mean, but the staff of 3 on EoE , (one being in a hospital) created over 500 rooms in one weekend, and an additional 500 the following weekend, with new mines, monsters, forage locations, plots, etc. So there is no excuse for a 200 room change to take so long, with armageddons VASTLY larger staff. VASTLY. I personally believe that staff are working hard to do right, but they need to open their minds.

I've only been playing arm for a handful of years, but when I came, we were peaking at 70-80. Now it's 50 peak - ON A GOOD DAY! More and more of the game world is closed and shut off. Why? We have the staff to do it. I believe in you.
People come to one of the highest ranking mud rpi's - key word RPI, and are told no, you can't learn a sword. No you can't build a wagon. No you can't get stronger if you work out for years, no you can't do this, no you can't do that, even if you put in all this role play, screw your shack you just built. The sole reason I started playing RPIS was because it reminded me of DND. And now I question if this is an rpi or a hack and slash. Players will come play, find out half the world is closed or inaccessible, find out they aren't allowed to role play out half of what they want to do for their characters, and then told to die a few times and find out. Well some people who invest a lot of interest in their concepts. You may not know you just told a new player to throw away their gold nugget, and only connection to the game. Characters are -ties- to the game for some. Then we have player/staff conflict, and we lose more amazing roleplayers and vets. And now we are beginning to notice the effects - because each player that leaves adds up. Then they go to new rpi muds, and find out they can achieve RESULTS through their role play. That it isn't just a hack and slash, where you are told no at every turn. And truth be told, arm can no longer compete with that. Why play arm, and be unable to do anything other than what staff wants you to play,.when you can literally do any thing in muds like SO I, harshlands, and eoe like an RPI should?
I understand this is your game, (directed to staff) but also understand People are taking time out of THEIR day to make this game theirs too. This isn't meant to bash, but I'm trying to put out a different perspective, that I know players have mutual feelings with. And a new player coming from another rpi or completely new, will say screw this when they realize they can't go to half the places they want, or do what they want to do.

So my suggestions?

Open the world back up. Make it real.
Provide players with staff support for bigger plots.
Minimize the glass ceiling plots where we can't do crap but watch.
Allow our ROLE PLAY to ACCOUNT for something. If I take time to role play doing something, I expect the finished result of said role play.
Staff are.Players too. Animate more. I haven't seen an animation in well over a RL year. That's sad.
Offer a hint feature, and an in game helper feature.
Try to sympathize with player discontent, rather arguing, or banning. We are people too. When a.player expresses his.or her discontent, it's because he or she CARES for the game.
Unban vets, let them return. With the game world dieng and super quiet, players are leaving.
Both players and staff have been wrong in the past. Let's be adults and accept what we've done wrong. Stop lingering in past. Let people return.
For all the storytellers, I don't see animations, or stories happening. Animate more. Higher up staff - let the storytellers add stories.
Let's all be nice to each other. If a stores employees all quit, the store closes. Same with arm.
Let players play what they want to play if they have the karma. Let players do what they want to. Who cares? THAT'S WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT! The murder, the betrayal, the love, the labor, the wars, the conflicts, the parties, the hunting crews, the new fort being built by a group of pcs - all the good and bad is part of the game. It's time to let players contribute staff. This is an rpi mud. Hello!
A lot of players I've tried to recruit from other muds don't play because there is no color, hurting their eyes, or making it impossible for them to read fast enough. Maybe we can incorporate color. That by itself would bring new players, some thing I know for a FACT.

That's my two sids. And I recognize how hard you all are working and I thank you for that. I thank you for going out of your way for feedback from the community. But sometimes blind ambition and loyalty makes you miss details. You are the parents of Arm, and arm is your baby. Parents often dismiss or do not understand their childs wants and needs. So an open mind really helps.

Quote from: Doublepalli on November 06, 2015, 09:07:46 AM
You are the parents of Arm, and arm is your baby. Parents often dismiss or do not understand their childs wants and needs. So an open mind really helps.

This is very apt.  Reminds me of a poster I recently saw.  "Teenagers, move out now while you still know everything."

Unless someone has been on Arm staff, then there is no way to know how "easy" it is to get things done.

Quote from: Doublepalli on November 06, 2015, 09:07:46 AM
Open the world back up. Make it real.

They re-opened the Atrium.  Now folks complain no one is in Reds and complain that the Atrium should be closed.  How is re-opening an entire City not going to reduce player mass in the playable area.

Quote from: Doublepalli on November 06, 2015, 09:07:46 AM
Provide players with staff support for bigger plots.

Assumes this isn't already happening. 

Quote from: Doublepalli on November 06, 2015, 09:07:46 AM
Minimize the glass ceiling plots where we can't do crap but watch.

Given there are complaints there is nothing going on, not sure how much minimized this could get.

Quote from: Doublepalli on November 06, 2015, 09:07:46 AM
Allow our ROLE PLAY to ACCOUNT for something. If I take time to role play doing something, I expect the finished result of said role play.

If by this, you mean "I submitted logs, now let me have the Skills my Guild/Sub-guild choice is lacking", I've seen the impact that has on a long-lived character?  Master Merchants able to beat down Guard Sergeants simply because the PC wanted something new to advance, then picked up something else and something else...  While I am not a fan of the inability to learn new skills myself, I see the downside.

If you just want to crank your stats, and I'm betting you don't mean wisdom, then who sets the standard for how much RP is sufficient? who reads through the logs?  Or who writes the code? to advance stats in a way that doesn't allow for favoritism to sneak into stat advances. 

Also, while I haven't tried it myself.  Are you sure that both of the above are impossible?  There is a request type for adding skills and stat bumps.
 

Quote from: Doublepalli on November 06, 2015, 09:07:46 AM
Staff are.Players too. Animate more. I haven't seen an animation in well over a RL year. That's sad.

Not sure where you're playing or when.  I wander the city, I've seen more than a few.

Quote from: Doublepalli on November 06, 2015, 09:07:46 AM
Try to sympathize with player discontent, rather arguing, or banning. We are people too. When a.player expresses his.or her discontent, it's because he or she CARES for the game.

Back to your child example.  I try to sympathize with my child, I really do.  But after a 10-hour work day, going to the store to make them dinner, making said dinner, and setting the table when they stare at the dinner that's been put on the table through my time and effort and every day, every day, there are complaints after complaints after complaints?  Eventually you tell the kids to eat their damn dinner and the sympathy is gone.  Because they don't get that there's about a thousand other things going on and it's just not always possible to give them what they want.

Quote from: Doublepalli on November 06, 2015, 09:07:46 AM
Unban vets, let them return. With the game world dieng and super quiet, players are leaving.

Stated, several times.  This is done.

Quote from: Doublepalli on November 06, 2015, 09:07:46 AM
Both players and staff have been wrong in the past. Let's be adults and accept what we've done wrong. Stop lingering in past. Let people return.

Seems some players are more guilty of this then staff.

Quote from: Doublepalli on November 06, 2015, 09:07:46 AM
For all the storytellers, I don't see animations, or stories happening. Animate more. Higher up staff - let the storytellers add stories.

Again, not sure where you are playing.

Quote from: Doublepalli on November 06, 2015, 09:07:46 AM
Let players play what they want to play if they have the karma. Let players do what they want to. Who cares? THAT'S WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT!

Part one, sure.  Part Two?  No... that's anarchy.  Because "Who cares" is the very epitomy of the failure of your argument.  It is the child crying "But I want to eat all the candy... NOW!!!  Queue Veruca Salt and the Oompa-Loompas.

Quote from: Taijan on November 04, 2015, 02:47:33 PM
A lot of fingers have been pointing towards staff, and I'll freely admit that there's always room for improvement. But c'mon, in game I can safely assume that >95% of your interactions are with other players.  When I could sit down and play a character of my own (it's been a little while), player-to-player interactions were what I kept coming for. Staff attention wasn't even icing on the cake for me - at best, it was a cherry on top.  For me, that was never a bad thing. I enjoy a little staff attention from time to time, but I have a lot more fun with other players.  Voting is great for bringing in new people, but fun is going to keep them here.

So what do you find fun?  How can you share that with others?

This is also a good question, but I'm not sure how to really answer it without coming off as a turd or vagueposting, but here's a stab.  (Please don't think I'm being a turd or vagueposting.  Also, I think we're all doing all of these, but... you know, here's my stab at some things that players can do.)

o Help newbies IG.  Sometimes we'll have to break character a little bit to help newbies.  I remember a recent case where two gemmed tried to help a newbie understand that they should be afraid of gemmed, while at the same time not just ignoring that new player.  This can be really hard, but a lot of players do this really well.

o Be a little less (codedly / socially) cautious.  The rough idea here is to put yourself out there and make your character vulnerable:

a. socially -- let a few secrets slip out; don't just use the way or whisper things behind compound doors; let new players in a clan get involved in those plots, even if they might betray you, etc.

b. codedly -- don't wear your armour everywhere; go to places -- public places -- where you might well get pickpocketed or even ganked.  Dying generates a lot of plots.  I had a recent PC that used to do a certain activity in a public spot, and in the course of a month or two I was randomly attacked twice, almost abducted, had shit thrown on me, and, well, the list goes on.  Kudos to all of you for those moments.  (ETA: I mean - play the victim now and then, or someone that could be a victim.)

o Keep the mystery alive!  Don't just teach people about magick, make it seem mysterious.  Don't just tell people how to get somewhere, e.g., Cenyr, make it seem like a really far-away place.  Make things that aren't mysterious any more to you, or aren't mysterious because code, mysterious.  I remember when I first started playing and I met the Kuraci for the first time, and someone made this big deal about how scary and mean those dudes were.  It was well done.

o Take a stab at leading now and then.  A lot of players are follower types, I get that, and this can give one the impression that the Gaj, for instance, is filled with a bunch of barsitters.  But give it a try: slap your fist down on the bar, and go: Oi, imma go grab some jozhals, who is in?

o Let things go.  If you got burnt once because you made fun of a breed and all the breed's (potentially OOC, but definitely IC) friends did something terrible to you that you thought was just stupid, jarring, immersion breaking, etc... just let it go.  Trust your fellow players to grow and develop into model citizens or something.  If someone jumped to code without an emote and ruined your character -- let it go, don't assume the next PC will do the same.  (File a complaint, for sure.  But then let it go.)

o Send kudos.  What kept me going were all them yummy kudos I received, and still receive even after I hung up my hat and quit.  That shit is important.

o Go easy on your leaders.  It's hard to keep people entertained.  Give them the benefit of the doubt, etc.  Share plot secrets of your own with them.

o Play the bad guy.  Nobody knows what it's like to be the bad guy.  It's tough, you will die a dubious and brutal death, almost every time.  But you generated a lot of plots just by being 'out there'.  When I first joined there was this fellow named 'Hawk', we may all remember him.  I never met him, at all, but the amount of plots that guy generated were unbelievable - it created chatter, it created fear, it created a lot of good things.

o Talk to each other.  Think/feel are pretty neat, but try to put your character out there for interaction, through visible emotes and language.

o Make your own fun.  Badskeelz said this eloquently (I know, right?  Behind every good troll, there's a little eloquent child...) a while ago, but roughly the idea is: don't wait for staff to give you a nudge, get out there and do stuff -- set your expectations to a level where you can accomplish those tasks, or most of them without staff involvement.  A lot of what we do in this sandbox is make-believe, and, yes, this is a MUD, but sometimes we just have to MUSH it up.  Staff won't give you that hole?  Just drop a coin, arrange it, and do some emotes.  (I have this sneaky suspicion that big staff plots transform all of us a little into more passive players than we probably should be, but I can't really articulate that right now.)

o Don't assume staff favoritism.

Anyway, those are my thoughts meant for the storm of brainz.