Quote from: Nyr on February 04, 2014, 05:25:53 PM
Seriously, if you have nothing to add but vague assertions that you know something is a problem and even admit you could be full of crap, you aren't trying to help.
In that case, I am right, I leave absolutely no avenue open for the idea that I could ever possibly be wrong. I lack the ability to admit I could even potentially be incorrect. Furthermore, anyone who questions my authority on this topic is laughable, and they probably like sugar free Jello.
I believe barricades that limit your ability to live in Tuluk if you aren't inked there has limited people's ability to live in Tuluk, and thus, less people are living in Tuluk.
I hope that wasn't too IC, as I think they are probably common knowledge at this point for most of the playerbase, but, I was pretty much badgered into making the thread.
That aside, if anyone would like to discuss this change, or other things related to helping out Tuluk's population, here is a thread for it. But, keep in mind, I am not full of crap, and I am not wrong.
(I can't be that much of an ass. I could be full of crap. You probably don't like sugar free Jello.)
There's more barricades than that one in the Arena in Tuluk now?
Yes. We planned on that. It is on the history page.
Quote from: Nyr on February 04, 2014, 05:36:48 PM
Yes. We planned on that. It is on the history page.
Well hell.
Fair enough then.
Mission accomplished. I'm just glad I wasn't imagining the after affects.
Well, umm, that is a non issue now. Anyone got anything else they think would help Tuluk's population?
I greatly endorse any idea that makes life harder for non-citizens in either City-state, especially Naki's in Tuluk or Tulukis in Nak.
Even speaking with the wrong accent should make you highly suspect as a spy or terrorist.
Conflict people!
If the whole xenophobia thing is why (you think) Tuluk is so empty the playerbase had some serious issues with doing its job at making outsiders feel unwelcome prior to its additio-
Oh wait it did. Huh.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on February 04, 2014, 05:38:57 PM
MEANINGFUL Conflict people!
as long as interrogating random travelers in the street adds to gameplay/stories, sure
Making it harder to play a foreigner in Tuluk resulted in the population drop?
Maybe people should play more Tuluki citizens then...
We found that some players were (and sometimes still are) ignoring the results of a major battle. We chose to represent that with some easily added scripting. The expected result was that non-citizens would find it difficult to maintain physical holdings in Tuluk.
Seeing as how we only had to escort about 3 or 4 non citizens out of the now "citizen-only" apartments, I doubt any assumption that says this is why there is a "dearth" of players playing in Tuluk. It is easier by far to attribute it to the loss of several sponsored roles in a two month period. And it is bouncing back from what we can tell, even though we still need to fill another role.
I'd sooner guess that players in Tuluk died and rolled their next PCs in Nak, per convention. Meanwhile there was not a similar loss of PC life in Nak. But, I'm a noob and still naive. I'm sure the GDB will fix that for me soon. :o
I think things like the barricades have added to the game/roleplay... Interestingly, they even affect roleplay in Allanak, albeit in ways which may not be readily apparent.
Quote from: whitt on February 04, 2014, 08:08:27 PM
I'd sooner guess that players in Tuluk died and rolled their next PCs in Nak, per convention. Meanwhile there was not a similar loss of PC life in Nak. But, I'm a noob and still naive. I'm sure the GDB will fix that for me soon. :o
No, it will ruin your soul! Quick... quit while you can!!!
I am all for Tuluk being populated by actual Tulukis. Not travellers, traders, displaced GMH employees, or folks who wanted the mindset of a Nakki character but didn't want to play there.
Despite having occassionally having been part of the problem of it being populated by foreigners in the past.
Oops, first of all I guess this was meant to go under ask the staff. Sorry... Secondly, I was referring to having more PC Tuluki Citizens. Sorry for the confusion.
Now that I'm not neglecting my organic chemistry class, I can be more verbose and maybe explain in a bit more detail.
Quote from: Desertman on February 04, 2014, 05:32:01 PM
I believe barricades that limit your ability to live in Tuluk if you aren't inked there has limited people's ability to live in Tuluk, and thus, less people are living in Tuluk.
When this decision was made, it was dovetailing off of IC plans and player-led ideas. We developed a specific set of goals for what the tattoo checker locations should do, and before we set out on that task, we made sure we covered a few things first.
- If you're a noncitizen in Tuluk, you can shop and buy most anything you need.
- If you're a noncitizen in Tuluk, you are not able to get past the tattoo checkers.*
- Every location in Tuluk that noncitizens might need to access for whatever reason can feasibly be accessed, except for their own private apartments. Member of the GMH and not a citizen? You have access to your Estate. The Byn is a bit iffy, I'll admit, but this is an IC plot sort of thing and can't be as easily discussed. At any rate, their compound IS accessible and is inside the region allowed.
*easilyThis introduces something new to the dynamic in Tuluk. If you DO want to play an Allanaki ex-pat, you can do so in Tuluk
QUITE easily. The character generation system allows it! Granted, you have nowhere to stay legally (
yet) apart from tavern backrooms...but some might say that is part of the difficulty of doing such a thing. That's also not to say that there aren't alternative methods.
We went into this with the idea that we knew this would negatively affect people not from Tuluk owning apartments in Tuluk, and we decided we were okay with that as it seemed to make more sense, particularly with the direction Tuluk is heading. In addition to that, we started reviewing the tattoo situation and that's when we made the documentation change. There were 7 people that were renting apartments in Tuluk that were not citizens. Of those, 4 were "from" Tuluk but did not have the tattoos; this brought up the overall decision to simplify the tattoo system for citizenship and eventually led to the character generation changes we now have. If applicable, we let them get their tats all done up; if not, we told them to hit the road.
As for overall population being lower in Tuluk of late, I'd point to at least a couple of factors, and again point to it getting better now:
- We had several sponsored roles fall through. No hard feelings towards them at all, this kind of thing happens, but when it does, it reduces the footprint in a region.
- The holidays. For some, that may be certain days, for others it may be weeks, for still others it might be a month or more. This wasn't just players--staff, too, were kicking off and taking breaks from Armageddon. (Like me.) Any time there's a "holiday season" regardless of when/where, it affects routines. When those routines include hobbies that involve other people...maybe one focuses on a different hobby. Or a different area of that hobby.
These two things feed off of each other. My best guess is that this is probably the culprit to lower population numbers in Tuluk, and that it will resolve itself over time. In the meantime we are continuing with further plot-related activity as well as documentation changes/completion. That also may be a factor--we had a steady amount of changes planned and staged up, some required PC involvement in certain areas, the above all happens and we have to stop, reassess where we were and what we needed, and sorta start over a little bit.
Sorry for any delays, hopefully the end result will be enjoyed by some, even most!
Speaking hypothetically, I'd consider making a character in Tuluk if I had some way to know what role would be good there. But, with IC events being what they are, I have no idea what's going on up there, so I am unsure if any concept I come up with will have a unique niche or role or use to others.
This is just speaking hypothetically, to suggest a possibility for the die-down.
Quote from: Harmless on February 04, 2014, 09:49:27 PM
Speaking hypothetically, I'd consider making a character in Tuluk if I had some way to know what role would be good there. But, with IC events being what they are, I have no idea what's going on up there, so I am unsure if any concept I come up with will have a unique niche or role or use to others.
This is just speaking hypothetically, to suggest a possibility for the die-down.
Not sure if I am following you on this one.
"If you had some way of knowing what role would be good there..."
There are three noble houses open and every GMH has operations up there; you can also be somewhat (or entirely) independent...or join the militia. In the subset of all of the above, you can also play a shadow artist or a bard if you're a citizen. Those are the "roles" that are there. What role would be good? A better question might be "what role do you want to play?" If you truly were hypothetically trying to figure out where you'd be useful in a new role, wouldn't an unsaturated environment be the place to find a new role?
"IC events being what they are, you have no idea what is going on up there"
See the history page. Read the rumor boards. Extrapolate. The assumption that everything happening in Tuluk happens behind the scenes is a bit overrated when you consider that everything on the history page occurring in the past few IC years was witnessed in public places by PCs and plopped on rumor boards.
"Unsure if any concept you come up with will have a unique niche or role or use to others"
If the concern laid out is "the population appears to be lower than usual," one might hope that any role you pick would have a unique niche or role or use to others!
I have my doubts that "not sure what is going on up there" is high on the list of variables affecting this, but if it is a factor, it will be resolved soon.
I actually agree with the changes made. I also believe that things will pick up again within Tuluk as the new sponsored roles come into the mix. The barricades do not effect playability that much.
How much impact has the absence of the Byn made to the Tuluki population you think? It is kind of the go-to clan for generic training. You can adjust how safe you are while you're there, leave anytime, ton of players, reliable amounts of combat experience even in the wee hours. If its re-opened since, then nevermind, but I'm kind of assuming Tuluk is still pissed.
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on February 05, 2014, 02:22:51 AM
How much impact has the absence of the Byn made to the Tuluki population you think? It is kind of the go-to clan for generic training. You can adjust how safe you are while you're there, leave anytime, ton of players, reliable amounts of combat experience even in the wee hours. If its re-opened since, then nevermind, but I'm kind of assuming Tuluk is still pissed.
Be the change! Forge a northern mercenary company to compete with the T'zai Byn.
"Care for a spot of tea before we set out to hunt those troublesome magickers?"
"Yes, good sir. I would absolutely adore a cup of tea - oh, and perhaps a pastry whilst we lounge?"
"Very good, good sir! Pastries and tea for everyone!"
Everybody shouts, "Huzzah!"
The reason less people might be playing in Tuluk is because Allanak is cooler.
Quote from: Scarecrow on February 05, 2014, 02:59:07 AM
The reason less people might be playing in Tuluk is because Allanak is cooler.
Allanak has redstorm, rinth, gemmers, southside,nobles, clans and heck even a sewer system where conflict and plots can come from, just to name a couple groups and places. Most of conflict within Tuluk on the other hand is very controlled. I've been thinking about this for a while and I feel at this point the amount changes that would be needed to create some meaty conflict within tuluk similar to what you could find in allanak would probably destroy the culture and concept. Instead i feel tuluk shines best when its in conflict with some external source. Tuluk vs undertuluk, tuluk vs redfangs, Tulukvs kryl, tuluk vs Allanak. When its citizens are being mobilized to tackle a threat or problem then its alot of fun to play there.
In short, sometimes I feel like Tuluk is just one big clan, with minor controlled clan conflict within.Therefore, I'm kinda liking the direction the staff is taking Tuluk, and hope they take it all the way to its extremes. Potenially turning the city into one xenophobic clan.
So what kind of roles would you want to play in Tuluk?
I want every gypsy dead. Tuluk role.
I want every mage/gemmer dead. Tuluk role.
Dem byn were mean to me, must kill clan. Tuluk role.
I think GMH are too powerful and there is no reason to have two clans who both hire hunters and crafters. Tuluk role.
Any role where you want to instigate some change or pose a threat to a place or group not related to tuluk.
Be the change right? With the right leaders I could see byn being burned down and the next conflict being Tuluk vs GMH actually. And why not? Kiick those houses out of the city and force them to opperate from luirs or cenyr. Well, maybe not all of them, I mean with a few minor changes Kurac could fill a really nice niche in tuluk should byn be be burned down. Its all about profit right? Kadius has some strong ties though to tuluk, I always like morins too. Nenyuk... maybe, especially ever get a tuluki coin and double currency...hmm who's left. On a side note, I feel allanak doesn't give two shits about Tuluk,its often busy with other things to give Tuluk the attention it thinks it deserves. Sorry, but don't worry Tuluk is still on the list, Nak will get to them as soon as they have some spare time on their hand...yeah.
These are just some random thoughts I've been having though, some of them tie ito the other thread 'how to make clans more fun', so don't flame me too badly. I doubt any of this will ever happen unless someone tries real hard. The way to make anything more fun and/or more populated in the game is to simply have more conflct after all. Over the years the game has slowly become more condensed, something i think is good, since it will hopefully lead to more conflict without actually reducing flavors or roles. For many years, people have argued for destroying Tuluk and completely condensing the player population. Now that always sounded a bit extreme, but a few years ago it felt to me like Armageddon consisted of two games, one played one in Tuluk and another in Allanak, completely seperate from one another. Tuluk becoming more akin to a large xenophobic clan might be a good thing. I know thats not what people might want to hear or see happen (and again not saying it will or is happening), but when you think about Tuluk in terms of one large clan, then the population there is pretty good.
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on February 05, 2014, 02:22:51 AM
How much impact has the absence of the Byn made to the Tuluki population you think? It is kind of the go-to clan for generic training. You can adjust how safe you are while you're there, leave anytime, ton of players, reliable amounts of combat experience even in the wee hours. If its re-opened since, then nevermind, but I'm kind of assuming Tuluk is still pissed.
It would basically have no effect IMO. If anything, there are already a lot of clans in Tuluk. And for Tuluk to function as designed, a variety of niches have to be filled by different players. Bards are needed, Templars are needed, nobles are needed, shadow artists are needed, employees of various types in the various clans are needed, all kinds of partisans are needed. The only advantage that Allanak has over Tuluk from an OOC perspective is that Allanak has less moving parts and therefore, more ability to function without some of the minor niches being filled.
But of course, Tuluk is seen as "uncool", or "not gritty enough". Then when some "harshness" is added in, those people who thought that just gloss over it. You can't please everyone I suppose.
Lack of population (to begin with, this is an evil spiral), lacking documentation, a more complicated setting, narrower setting, no natural Byn presence so on - it all leads to less players there. Tbh, Allanak is more easily identifiable as a Dark Sun inspired setting and probably what most new players pick and most are won over by - and if they start branching out they might go Luir's, Red Storm after that.
Perhaps offer a few weeks of having a dedicated staffer to coach players hands on who want to play in Tuluk? Set up chat rooms, try to craft a background and help them understand the mindset with a few examples. Push them in game with some free gear and some pointers and perhaps a guide around the city as an NPC family member? I mean it would be favouratism, but if a lot of players havn't played Tuluk because they find it intimidating then that might be the way to go. In the end it won't break game balance or make them secret psionics, just offer a helping hand to hesitant Tuluki players.
Tuluk is really less intimidating than you think. The documentation can be (and currently is being) improved. But in terms of starting a new PC it more or less works like anywhere else. Pick a background, a goal upon getting into the game (e.g. joining a clan, getting patronage or doing some indie job) and pick a guild/sub that fits those. If you want to be a bard, the additional step of putting a request to the Poet's Circle clan would be needed before the app is put in.
Sample backgrounds for both cities are a pretty good idea for newbies. Everyone just sort of knows that in Allanak, a newbie will have an easy time starting as a farmer yokel who doesn't know anything about the ways of the city-slickers. What is the equivalent in Tuluk?
Background:
Ignorant yokel from the Warrens. Good to go.
Quote from: Voular on February 05, 2014, 07:03:11 AM
lacking documentation
Not sure if serious. While documentation work remains to be done, it is within the clan level. After it is done there, some tweaks will be made to the overall documentation for Tuluk, because then it will need to be changed. It's not like people are flying blind, though!
Quotea more complicated setting
Tribal, Orwellian-influenced city-state.
I've pointed out elsewhere but the whole subtle thing/everything happening behind closed doors/"omg nothing overt happens in Tuluk" has become overplayed; we're fixing that. I mentioned it a bit here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46482.msg786470.html#msg786470) and here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46143.msg778640.html#msg778640). However, let's break down what a tribal Orwellian city-state might be.
Muk Utep conquered the tribes. Over time those tribal influences have remained quite a bit more prevalent. Tattooing is one area that this shows up. One of the noble Houses was (as recently as during the Occupation) a tribe of guerilla fighters elevated to noble status. The dress and style in Tuluk is influenced by this. In a nod to the Tuluki fashion documentation, the new Tuluki templar uniforms will follow those lines and hopefully better establish this tribal influence.
Orwellian does not simply mean "totalitarian." It doesn't simply mean "you are told the truth, citizen, and that is what the truth is." Doublethink is one of the concepts of 1984 that was the most chilling--holding two ideas in your head, simultaneously, knowing that each defied the other, bringing the one to the fore when necessary and discarding the other when convenient--and seeing no problem with this whatsoever. The way it is being approached in Tuluk is not quite as difficult as that, though it is still in its fledgling stages.
A city-state is probably self-explanatory. It is a city plus the surrounding territory; it considers itself to be an independent and self-governing entity. Since this means a large population within a (relatively) smaller area, city-type lifestyles emerge and affect other paradigms. However, since the city-state is also not the size of a modern nation, it is also affected by the limits of its smaller size.
Put all three together. It is not any one thing overshadowing the rest, it is all three mixed together. You will have some tribal aspects showing up, but it won't be the same as living in a
single tribe because everyone has their own agendas and loyalties. You will have some Orwellian-type influences (examples of doublethink, of a totalitarian government, of corruption, of the state creating its own truth), but it won't be as though you're living in the midst of 1984 because the scale is smaller.
Examples:
1.
The ascension of a new High Precentor. At an event to celebrate this, two executions are held, both at the actual hands of the High Precentor and the Precentor she replaced. This is mentioned in the history documentation. It is a one-off mentionable. Take some time and think about that. Public executions had always been rare in Tuluk (per documentation). Not only was this public and at what was called "a public celebration," the executions were by the hands of those nearest the top in terms of power and influence. To compare this to modern times, imagine your President or Prime Minister executing someone on live television with his or her own hands. Those that were at the event saw other things that would've (likely) been just as chilling, but that'll be left for people to "know" IC. In that same history entry, it mentions that there are rumors of widespread disappearances throughout Tuluk. This is all after it is mentioned that there were spies in Tuluk.
In short, you have a witch hunt in Tuluk...except not for witches, for once.
2.
The eradication of the Hlum. The Lirathan Order casts the whole goddamned chunk of commoners-turned-nobles as traitors and collaborators (read: also spies). The place gets burned down. Then everyone is told "oh, by the way, the Hlum never existed." And to this day, there's still a burnt hulk of a building where their "Estate" used to be. It is a visible reminder that "something happened," yet people are also supposed to think "well it isn't the Hlum because the Hlum don't exist and never existed, and in fact I didn't just think 'Hlum', now did I?"
3.
Both Orders get publicly removed and replaced with "one templarate." Ok, how is this any of those Orwellian-influenced things? I'll answer that with another question: who is still in charge? That'd be the same High Precentor.
4.
Shadow artists are now less "agents of their bosses" and somewhat "agents of the state." That documentation is pretty much all out there (except for what templars have on it).
I don't think it's that complicated, but maybe it does need to be discussed more so that the dots that we on staff think are "obvious" are connected a bit more solidly. It's not as though any of the above is a secret, after all.
Quotenarrower setting
Allanak HAS been putting on the pounds, lately, but you don't need to be so mean about it!
Quoteno natural Byn presence
...due to actual IC events, like, I dunno, the Byn being seen as involved on the Allanaki side of a battle? Even if they are mercenaries (which they are), actions on either side of a conflict have consequences that should be borne out so that things do not remain stagnant. And really, before the battle, the Byn weren't exactly always in Tuluk as it was. Traditionally it
is a southern organization.
Quoteso on - it all leads to less players there.
You started out with "lower population" and ended with "leads to less players there." I can't fault you for that logic, but I have to admit that I don't think you can use "lower population" as a factor that "leads to less players there" considering that both things are the same thing.
QuoteTbh, Allanak is more easily identifiable as a Dark Sun inspired setting and probably what most new players pick and most are won over by - and if they start branching out they might go Luir's, Red Storm after that.
How many Tuluki characters have you played and for how long? My first suggestion would be "read the documentation and jump into a role there." It's not
that difficult!
I checked through points to Tuluk from new characters over the past week and a half. 18 to Tuluk, 25 to Allanak. Yes, more people pointed to Allanak this week. It's a fairly negligible difference; our goal is not to make people point to one city state as often as the other.
QuotePerhaps offer a few weeks of having a dedicated staffer to coach players hands on who want to play in Tuluk? Set up chat rooms, try to craft a background and help them understand the mindset with a few examples. Push them in game with some free gear and some pointers and perhaps a guide around the city as an NPC family member? I mean it would be favouratism, but if a lot of players havn't played Tuluk because they find it intimidating then that might be the way to go. In the end it won't break game balance or make them secret psionics, just offer a helping hand to hesitant Tuluki players.
At best we might put up some sample backgrounds for both city-states. However, you can already get gear (not free) in the starter shops. You can read the map helpfile. You can read the docs. It wouldn't be favoritism so much as unnecessary hand-holding. A better approach might be to come up with a better "what you know" page once everything is finished for the revamp in Tuluk. Hey, that's actually what we're going to do!
What is it that you find intimidating about Tuluk? What makes you hesitant?
I reiterate. Make Sujaal's Museum the new Byn for Tuluk. There. That problem's solved.:-D
I would rather see someone try to create a northern-based Byn-like clan for some more conflict and competition.
Not really related to the rest of my post, but http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,24087.0.html contains a bunch of stuff about Tuluki templars, Muk, and stuff, that might be better off in some more readily available format.
Okay. That aside, actual IG stuff, nothing to do with docs or whatever...
Those tattoos. I feel like if I make a Tuluki PC, simply having those citizenship tattoos greatly restricts my available options for a character. A person without tattoos can try and pass as being from any number of places, and mingle with others in the world without too much difficulty. The moment my character is seen to be Tuluki, however? Instant distrust and/or outright hostility from certain quarters. Which is all well and good, conflict etcetera, but I feel restricted by it.
Barricades. What? Why? IC reasoning be damned for a moment, do these make the game more interesting or enjoyable for anyone in any sense? I had rather a good time playing an uninked PC in Tuluk once before, but not being able to go into the city's main bar? I feel bad for the Chosen who don't really have anywhere else to go regularly to interact with other PCs outside of their clan, because, well, if I play in Tuluk again, my character will hang round the Firestorm or Tooth so I can get to interact with PCs from beyond the city, who might have interesting stuff to talk about or get involved with. Which leads on to...
The culture of keeping very, very quiet about everything. I've had three PCs in Tuluk who have found out bits of information of the sort which the templarate would deem irregular and inappropriate. Only in one instance did that come from a regular conversation between my PC and another; that person was summarily told to shut up. Tuluki taverns are the most boring thing in-game -- you have to go behind closed doors to hope to get to talk about anything at all beyond "so, hey, great weather today". Why have the main gathering places for many PCs be boring?
Few players leads to fewer players. That's self-evident. Just as larger numbers of players tend to attract more players, since there's more stuff to do.
Closure of the arena's training grounds. What did this achieve? Tuluk is still the very safest environment around for combat characters to go and skill up. And everyone can beat up gurth and gortoks all day long without needing to involve another PC, whereas the arena at least fostered interaction.
Sponsored roles must be ... something? I don't know what. But with a few notable exceptions, and those deserve some sort of prize for their sheer patience, Tuluk-bound sponsored roles seem to have a fairly short lifespan.
Not down to anything specific, but I had a go at a Tuluki citizen not so very long ago, and I tried so very hard to engage other PCs with that character, and just... couldn't. I'm not the best player ever, and could probably have spiced that character up some more, but I have a feeling that it would have gone fantastically in Allanak. Tuluk, though? No such luck. :(
Short-ish post, I know, but I'm 1) trying to write a character report, too, and 2) just thought a lot of this stuff would be kind of plain to see.
My two sids:
I enjoyed Tuluk more when the Warrens were perceived as seedier than they are perceived. I also enjoyed Tuluk more when the Lirathans were Lirathans, but left the Heart more often to interact visibly with the playerbase. I also enjoyed Tuluk MUCH more when the UnderTuluk existed, because it was "the bogeyman" of Tuluk. On a world-reaching level, Allanak is the enemy. No doubt about that, I'm cool with it. But on a day-to-day level, what is Tuluk's antagonist? What is the antagonist that the players know, that their characters know, that they can roleplay out, in the open and in public? Nothing.
You can't talk about oppression, even though you're surely being oppressed. You can't talk about magicks, you can't talk about assassinations, you can't talk about - well - pretty much anything significant. So bar talk ends up being totally meaningless idle chitchat and veiled innuendo that seems more like "inside jokes" to anyone who isn't in on it, creating resentment and disinterest on an OOC level as well as an IC level.
I would love to see the ugly underbelly rise JUST enough to make sure everyone is aware that it exists, while keeping it ugly, and keeping it the underbelly. Not sanctioning it like they did with the Shadow Artists.
Add a new section to the Warrens that isn't pretty and filled with lovely statues and NPCs who make gorgeous crafted things or whatever else, that is horrifying to those who don't live there - and is probably scary to those who do live there. I don't mean just on an IC level. I mean new players, and players new to the area - the *players* should have a gut-dropping experience, if they mistakenly or purposefully wandered in. Just like you have in the Rinth, and just like a rinthi would have if he's from the east side daring to cross to the west, and vice versa, just like anyone -rinthi or otherwise - would have, venturing into the sewers, just like anyone, resident or not, would have crossing into the depths of mantis territory.
There needs to be a place within the city, that is SCARY on an OOC *and* IC level. The only places right now that I know of like that, are restricted access and they're only scary because a soldier subdued you and dragged you there, or a Templar invited you to walk with them there.
Summary:
Scary location within the city needed. Place where mothers tell their kids the bogeyman will come out from and drag them to if they misbehave.
Templars need to be more *visibly* active to the entirety of the northern playerbase, not just to the favored citizens PCs.
Quote from: Delusion on February 05, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
Not really related to the rest of my post, but http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,24087.0.html contains a bunch of stuff about Tuluki templars, Muk, and stuff, that might be better off in some more readily available format.
Okay. That aside, actual IG stuff, nothing to do with docs or whatever...
Those tattoos. I feel like if I make a Tuluki PC, simply having those citizenship tattoos greatly restricts my available options for a character. A person without tattoos can try and pass as being from any number of places, and mingle with others in the world without too much difficulty. The moment my character is seen to be Tuluki, however? Instant distrust and/or outright hostility from certain quarters. Which is all well and good, conflict etcetera, but I feel restricted by it.
It's possible to pass as something else even with the tattoos, at least a little. It's possible to remove them (even if that's unthinkable for a loyal Tuluki). But yeah, it's a choice to be made, and even though it is restrictive, it's one of those many flavor things that makes Tuluk different from Allanak.
QuoteBarricades. What? Why? IC reasoning be damned for a moment, do these make the game more interesting or enjoyable for anyone in any sense? I had rather a good time playing an uninked PC in Tuluk once before, but not being able to go into the city's main bar? I feel bad for the Chosen who don't really have anywhere else to go regularly to interact with other PCs outside of their clan, because, well, if I play in Tuluk again, my character will hang round the Firestorm or Tooth so I can get to interact with PCs from beyond the city, who might have interesting stuff to talk about or get involved with. Which leads on to...
I think if the Sanctuary barricade was taken out and the barricades that protect the other parts of the city were left in, interaction opportunities would be better overall and the barricades would still maintain their purpose. The question really is if it makes IC sense, but in my opinion it does since it's the first tavern the typical traveler sees upon entering the city.
QuoteThe culture of keeping very, very quiet about everything. I've had three PCs in Tuluk who have found out bits of information of the sort which the templarate would deem irregular and inappropriate. Only in one instance did that come from a regular conversation between my PC and another; that person was summarily told to shut up. Tuluki taverns are the most boring thing in-game -- you have to go behind closed doors to hope to get to talk about anything at all beyond "so, hey, great weather today". Why have the main gathering places for many PCs be boring?
I'm not sure that this is really the problem players make it out to be. It is still possible to be conflicting and controversial in taverns. It's behind closed doors where these conflicts are planned out and these controversies are fabricated. Political play in Tuluk is not that much different than political play in Allanak. And to be in the know in Tuluk requires some more agency than what is given by merely being a citizen. It does usually take being a partisan or employee of one House or another to get into things. Again, not that much more different than Allanak.
Quote from: Delusionregarding sponsored roles
Quote from: Lizzie on February 05, 2014, 10:57:41 AM
I also enjoyed Tuluk more when the Lirathans were Lirathans, but left the Heart more often to interact visibly with the playerbase.
...
Templars need to be more *visibly* active to the entirety of the northern playerbase, not just to the favored citizens PCs.
One of the biggest strengths of Tuluk IMO is that the noble and Templar documentation allows them to be far more publicly accessible than they are in Allanak. On a basic gameplay level, that fosters interaction greatly. Sponsored role PCs in Tuluk should really take advantage of that as much as possible.
Quote from: Lizzieregarding Undertuluk/scary places
Not a bad idea, but new scary places would probably have to be added ICly. Seeing Undertuluk get drained somehow would be nice I suppose.
To Lizzie, would doing something to/in the Old Quarter of the city do anything for the city?
Quote from: Nyr on February 04, 2014, 10:33:47 PM
Quote from: Harmless on February 04, 2014, 09:49:27 PM
Speaking hypothetically, I'd consider making a character in Tuluk if I had some way to know what role would be good there. But, with IC events being what they are, I have no idea what's going on up there, so I am unsure if any concept I come up with will have a unique niche or role or use to others.
This is just speaking hypothetically, to suggest a possibility for the die-down.
Not sure if I am following you on this one.
"If you had some way of knowing what role would be good there..."
There are three noble houses open and every GMH has operations up there; you can also be somewhat (or entirely) independent...or join the militia. In the subset of all of the above, you can also play a shadow artist or a bard if you're a citizen. Those are the "roles" that are there. What role would be good? A better question might be "what role do you want to play?" If you truly were hypothetically trying to figure out where you'd be useful in a new role, wouldn't an unsaturated environment be the place to find a new role?
"IC events being what they are, you have no idea what is going on up there"
See the history page. Read the rumor boards. Extrapolate. The assumption that everything happening in Tuluk happens behind the scenes is a bit overrated when you consider that everything on the history page occurring in the past few IC years was witnessed in public places by PCs and plopped on rumor boards.
"Unsure if any concept you come up with will have a unique niche or role or use to others"
If the concern laid out is "the population appears to be lower than usual," one might hope that any role you pick would have a unique niche or role or use to others!
I have my doubts that "not sure what is going on up there" is high on the list of variables affecting this, but if it is a factor, it will be resolved soon.
Thanks for replying to my thoughts, Nyr. You actually took my post and understood it well.
I guess the best plan for anyone making a new character in Tuluk who has any of my concerns above is to just make a general concept, one that is malleable -- I wouldn't be setting my sights on a specific GMH or noble house from the get-go, and just try to make the personality and background adaptable. No pre-set enemies or friends, etc.
Quote from: Delusion on February 05, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
Those tattoos. I feel like if I make a Tuluki PC, simply having those citizenship tattoos greatly restricts my available options for a character. A person without tattoos can try and pass as being from any number of places, and mingle with others in the world without too much difficulty. The moment my character is seen to be Tuluki, however? Instant distrust and/or outright hostility from certain quarters. Which is all well and good, conflict etcetera, but I feel restricted by it.
Okay, tattoos if anything increases the options for your character. They allow you to function as a citizen and be open to any clan in Tuluk. How exactly is that restricting? A majority of the people keep saying they want clans in Tuluk that are busy, and then you say I don't want to be part of a Tuluki clan. How does this work? If they are restrictive, you have a great option DON'T get tattoos. Don't make your character a citizen of Tuluk. Function in Tuluk as a non-citizen. Don't complain about the tattoos its really a pitiful excuse.
Quote from: Delusion on February 05, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
Barricades. What? Why? IC reasoning be damned for a moment, do these make the game more interesting or enjoyable for anyone in any sense? I had rather a good time playing an uninked PC in Tuluk once before, but not being able to go into the city's main bar? I feel bad for the Chosen who don't really have anywhere else to go regularly to interact with other PCs outside of their clan, because, well, if I play in Tuluk again, my character will hang round the Firestorm or Tooth so I can get to interact with PCs from beyond the city, who might have interesting stuff to talk about or get involved with. Which leads on to...
Again I don't see how this makes any sense. You can't say IC reasoning be damned for a moment for the following reasons: 1) The barricades are completely about IC reasons and 2) You can't say IC reasoning be damned and then talk about how IC'ly this will set your character back. Come on what's the real point to that statement?
Quote from: Delusion on February 05, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
The culture of keeping very, very quiet about everything. I've had three PCs in Tuluk who have found out bits of information of the sort which the templarate would deem irregular and inappropriate. Only in one instance did that come from a regular conversation between my PC and another; that person was summarily told to shut up. Tuluki taverns are the most boring thing in-game -- you have to go behind closed doors to hope to get to talk about anything at all beyond "so, hey, great weather today". Why have the main gathering places for many PCs be boring?
Secretiveness is the Tuluki culture. The cultures between Tuluk and Allanak are like the differences between daytime with both moons full in the sky and night time with no moons at all and a fierce sandstorm surrounding you. Its one thing to say you don't understand the Tuluki culture. Its another to completely berate it because you don't understand it. Play a character, talk to bards, learn the history of Tuluk. Talk to some of the Chosen and learn their family history. Don't just assume because everything is different it is wrong.
Quote from: Delusion on February 05, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
Few players leads to fewer players. That's self-evident. Just as larger numbers of players tend to attract more players, since there's more stuff to do.
This I completely agree with. But also I think a lot of the problems with fewer players in Tuluk is because half of the posts on the GDB here talk about how great The Byn is and how its the end all be all for playing in Tuluk. Yeah, sure for some players it is great. For others like me, who despise schedules, orders, being told when and how to do everything every part of the day its horrible. I wonder how many new players come aboard and join The Byn and get annoyed, frustrated, and bored by it and never come back, all because they saw a bunch of people singing its praises on the GDB.
Quote from: Delusion on February 05, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
Closure of the arena's training grounds. What did this achieve? Tuluk is still the very safest environment around for combat characters to go and skill up. And everyone can beat up gurth and gortoks all day long without needing to involve another PC, whereas the arena at least fostered interaction.
[/qoute]
Arm isn't about skilling up. It isn't about leveling or being the best there is. This is a roleplaying MUD if all you're doing is killing stuff all day and night long or sparring all the time, then I recommend a hack & slash MUD for you. You really don't belong on Arm and the documents clearly state that. Maybe the reason you are so opposed to Tuluk and so confused is because all you want to do is focus on your skills. Tuluk is about art, culture, and a deeply seated history that binds the citizens together. Again I encourage creating a character and finding out about this IG, roleplay a little (after all that's what Arm is supposed to be for).
Quote from: Delusion on February 05, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
Sponsored roles must be ... something? I don't know what. But with a few notable exceptions, and those deserve some sort of prize for their sheer patience, Tuluk-bound sponsored roles seem to have a fairly short lifespan.
Allanak doesn't have a shortened lifespan. I guess not sponsored roles in Allanak can kill any non-sponsored roll just for looking at them the wrong way. I think turnover is realistic. Its a harsh world for commoner and noble alike. Perhaps the other reason for this is because nobles in Tuluk ACTUALLY get out and do things. They don't just sit around drinking and insulting commoners all day long.
Quote from: Delusion on February 05, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
Not down to anything specific, but I had a go at a Tuluki citizen not so very long ago, and I tried so very hard to engage other PCs with that character, and just... couldn't. I'm not the best player ever, and could probably have spiced that character up some more, but I have a feeling that it would have gone fantastically in Allanak. Tuluk, though? No such luck. :(
I wonder why this would have happened. I have never had a problem with engaging other characters in Tuluk with any character I've had. Sure not everyone is friendly, in fact some have been down right hostile to my character(s), but its still interaction.
Ugh sorry for my last post, it got confused with the quotes towards the end, I'm not sure how or why. The edit function never works for me. I hope people will be able to figure it out. Sorry again.
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on February 05, 2014, 11:26:26 AM
Quote from: Delusion on February 05, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
Few players leads to fewer players. That's self-evident. Just as larger numbers of players tend to attract more players, since there's more stuff to do.
This I completely agree with. But also I think a lot of the problems with fewer players in Tuluk is because half of the posts on the GDB here talk about how great The Byn is and how its the end all be all for playing in Tuluk. Yeah, sure for some players it is great. For others like me, who despise schedules, orders, being told when and how to do everything every part of the day its horrible. I wonder how many new players come aboard and join The Byn and get annoyed, frustrated, and bored by it and never come back, all because they saw a bunch of people singing its praises on the GDB.
I agree here. I think the lack leadership is the issue in Tuluk.
Are you talking PC leadership or Staff leadership, Barsook?
PC leadership.
Quote from: Barsook on February 05, 2014, 11:21:37 AM
To Lizzie, would doing something to/in the Old Quarter of the city do anything for the city?
My post wasn't to do anything to the city. It's to encourage an increased interest in *playing* in the city. Anything that restores that "OMGWTF" factor to Tuluk, that used to exist and no longer exists, will improve things.
Quote from: Lizzie on February 05, 2014, 11:40:26 AM
Quote from: Barsook on February 05, 2014, 11:21:37 AM
To Lizzie, would doing something to/in the Old Quarter of the city do anything for the city?
My post wasn't to do anything to the city. It's to encourage an increased interest in *playing* in the city. Anything that restores that "OMGWTF" factor to Tuluk, that used to exist and no longer exists, will improve things.
Oh. I guess I missread your post.
Quote from: Delusion on February 05, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
Those tattoos. I feel like if I make a Tuluki PC, simply having those citizenship tattoos greatly restricts my available options for a character. A person without tattoos can try and pass as being from any number of places, and mingle with others in the world without too much difficulty. The moment my character is seen to be Tuluki, however? Instant distrust and/or outright hostility from certain quarters. Which is all well and good, conflict etcetera, but I feel restricted by it.
Fair enough. However, the sword cuts both ways.
If you're rolling up a Tuluki with the intention of playing outside of Tuluk in a major independent capacity, you're gonna have a tough time.
If you're rolling up an Allanaki with the intention of playing inside Tuluk in a major independent capacity, you're gonna have a tough time.
Otherwise, you can roll with a GMH and travel the world and have that distrust be part of your roleplay.
You can roll in the T'zai Byn and travel the world and have that distrust be part of your roleplay.
And you can always play a Tuluki in Tuluk doing Tuluki things, or an Allanaki in Allanak doing Allanaki things.
I can understand that you might find it restrictive, but restrictions that generate conflict tend to make roles more interesting.
QuoteBarricades. What? Why? IC reasoning be damned for a moment, do these make the game more interesting or enjoyable for anyone in any sense? I had rather a good time playing an uninked PC in Tuluk once before, but not being able to go into the city's main bar? I feel bad for the Chosen who don't really have anywhere else to go regularly to interact with other PCs outside of their clan, because, well, if I play in Tuluk again, my character will hang round the Firestorm or Tooth so I can get to interact with PCs from beyond the city, who might have interesting stuff to talk about or get involved with. Which leads on to...
Yes, we think it makes the game more interesting and more enjoyable because it fosters conflict and corruption. As hinted here (and elsewhere) it is leading to other things. For instance, before, you could roll up an Allanaki and go to Tuluk and simply live there with no conflict whatsoever. Now...you are restricted. You might be seen as something of a second-class citizen. You might be shaken down more by the templarate or the militia. You pretty much have to find a job with a GMH if you want anywhere to stay to call your own, and even then it's a bunk. This generates roleplay and conflict. Having safety does not do that.
By the way, Chosen
can go to other bars. It isn't Allanak. They do interact somewhat more with the common rabble, and the Firestorm (or the Tooth) are both valid locations for a Tuluki noble to visit. Having one bar location to hang out at that isn't available to the nasty southerner rabble...
...sounds sort of like an even more restrictive location in Allanak, where only the nobility can get in.
QuoteThe culture of keeping very, very quiet about everything. I've had three PCs in Tuluk who have found out bits of information of the sort which the templarate would deem irregular and inappropriate. Only in one instance did that come from a regular conversation between my PC and another; that person was summarily told to shut up. Tuluki taverns are the most boring thing in-game -- you have to go behind closed doors to hope to get to talk about anything at all beyond "so, hey, great weather today". Why have the main gathering places for many PCs be boring?
I swear I just wrote about this above.
QuoteClosure of the arena's training grounds. What did this achieve? Tuluk is still the very safest environment around for combat characters to go and skill up. And everyone can beat up gurth and gortoks all day long without needing to involve another PC, whereas the arena at least fostered interaction.
The Arena was never intended to be a sparring shitfest for all comers, which is what it turned into. It was intended to be training grounds for actual Arena events. We put a stop to it because it was ridiculous. We've also been told that Tuluk is the very safest environment, as you've said, and I believe we have someone working on a solution to that right now as well. Be careful what you wish for.
QuoteSponsored roles must be ... something? I don't know what. But with a few notable exceptions, and those deserve some sort of prize for their sheer patience, Tuluk-bound sponsored roles seem to have a fairly short lifespan.
I've written about this already as well.
QuoteNot down to anything specific, but I had a go at a Tuluki citizen not so very long ago, and I tried so very hard to engage other PCs with that character, and just... couldn't. I'm not the best player ever, and could probably have spiced that character up some more, but I have a feeling that it would have gone fantastically in Allanak. Tuluk, though? No such luck. :(
I'm sorry you had a bad experience. However, this is the first we've heard about it. It is very difficult to go back and analyze what happened if you are not engaged with your clan staff or a clan in general. Not that either of those things would mean you'd have a better time, but dialogue with staff might have meant the difference in having staff enforce the virtual world better in a certain situation, whatever it might be.
Quote from: Lizzie on February 05, 2014, 10:57:41 AM
My two sids:
I enjoyed Tuluk more when the Warrens were perceived as seedier than they are perceived. I also enjoyed Tuluk more when the Lirathans were Lirathans, but left the Heart more often to interact visibly with the playerbase. I also enjoyed Tuluk MUCH more when the UnderTuluk existed, because it was "the bogeyman" of Tuluk. On a world-reaching level, Allanak is the enemy. No doubt about that, I'm cool with it. But on a day-to-day level, what is Tuluk's antagonist? What is the antagonist that the players know, that their characters know, that they can roleplay out, in the open and in public? Nothing.
A rival House. A rival bard. A rival
anything. Or we can go with the really easy answer that requires no work: nothing. There are no antagonists.
QuoteYou can't talk about oppression, even though you're surely being oppressed. You can't talk about magicks, you can't talk about assassinations, you can't talk about - well - pretty much anything significant. So bar talk ends up being totally meaningless idle chitchat and veiled innuendo that seems more like "inside jokes" to anyone who isn't in on it, creating resentment and disinterest on an OOC level as well as an IC level.
This has been brought up already as something to address; if you have something new to add, can you discuss it perhaps with that in mind?
QuoteI would love to see the ugly underbelly rise JUST enough to make sure everyone is aware that it exists, while keeping it ugly, and keeping it the underbelly. Not sanctioning it like they did with the Shadow Artists.
*waves hand*
"They" are right over here; "they" requested this thread.
Hi, Nyr here, I play an administrator in Tuluk but you might know me by other roles in the past.
The shadow artists were always "sanctioned" whatever, even back when you nostalgically loved (or say that you loved) the city. And even then they aren't the underbelly.
QuoteAdd a new section to the Warrens that isn't pretty and filled with lovely statues and NPCs who make gorgeous crafted things or whatever else, that is horrifying to those who don't live there - and is probably scary to those who do live there. I don't mean just on an IC level. I mean new players, and players new to the area - the *players* should have a gut-dropping experience, if they mistakenly or purposefully wandered in. Just like you have in the Rinth, and just like a rinthi would have if he's from the east side daring to cross to the west, and vice versa, just like anyone -rinthi or otherwise - would have, venturing into the sewers, just like anyone, resident or not, would have crossing into the depths of mantis territory.
The Warrens is by lore and documentation where 75% of the city lives; unless you're suggesting it should be a cesspit of squalor equivalent to the 'rinth (which you seem to be doing), it's going to have some gradient between scum and the city-equivalent of middle class. Building in some more stuff there might come up in the future, but this is not a primary goal at this time.
QuoteThere needs to be a place within the city, that is SCARY on an OOC *and* IC level. The only places right now that I know of like that, are restricted access and they're only scary because a soldier subdued you and dragged you there, or a Templar invited you to walk with them there.
Now, on that note, we sort of have something like that in mind. It's probably not what you are thinking, but hopefully it will come across in an interesting way.
QuoteSummary:
Scary location within the city needed. Place where mothers tell their kids the bogeyman will come out from and drag them to if they misbehave.
Templars need to be more *visibly* active to the entirety of the northern playerbase, not just to the favored citizens PCs.
Summary from me: If you had a bad experience in Tuluk and are only now voicing your concerns about it when you did nothing of the sort while playing there, you haven't done much to help review the problem as it was ongoing. Sure, you've pointed it out now, and that helps, but it's far more frustrating than being able to address something as it occurs.
The last point wasn't awfully important. I had RL going on for periods of playing the character and my playtimes got kind of intermittent-- nor did I have any grand schemes for the character (typically, if my PC's background indicates that they aren't the sort to have any big plans, they tend to, you know, not have any big plans).
The arena, for me, was a way to see and get to interact with other PCs that I almost never got to otherwise.
I don't think the Arboretum's really comparable. Allanaki nobles don't seem to use it much, preferring to instead adjourn to their estates and stuff, unless they're going and meeting other nobles there frequently, but that's going kind of off-topic by now.
Quote from: Barsook on February 05, 2014, 11:31:08 AM
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on February 05, 2014, 11:26:26 AM
Quote from: Delusion on February 05, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
Few players leads to fewer players. That's self-evident. Just as larger numbers of players tend to attract more players, since there's more stuff to do.
This I completely agree with. But also I think a lot of the problems with fewer players in Tuluk is because half of the posts on the GDB here talk about how great The Byn is and how its the end all be all for playing in Tuluk. Yeah, sure for some players it is great. For others like me, who despise schedules, orders, being told when and how to do everything every part of the day its horrible. I wonder how many new players come aboard and join The Byn and get annoyed, frustrated, and bored by it and never come back, all because they saw a bunch of people singing its praises on the GDB.
I agree here. I think the lack leadership is the issue in Tuluk.
You mean PC leadership...in the Byn...in Tuluk? The organization that is (still at present) rather persona non grata in Tuluk?
Yes, there is an absence of the Byn in Tuluk. And their PC leadership.
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 12:03:09 PM
Quote from: Barsook on February 05, 2014, 11:31:08 AM
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on February 05, 2014, 11:26:26 AM
Quote from: Delusion on February 05, 2014, 10:56:45 AM
Few players leads to fewer players. That's self-evident. Just as larger numbers of players tend to attract more players, since there's more stuff to do.
This I completely agree with. But also I think a lot of the problems with fewer players in Tuluk is because half of the posts on the GDB here talk about how great The Byn is and how its the end all be all for playing in Tuluk. Yeah, sure for some players it is great. For others like me, who despise schedules, orders, being told when and how to do everything every part of the day its horrible. I wonder how many new players come aboard and join The Byn and get annoyed, frustrated, and bored by it and never come back, all because they saw a bunch of people singing its praises on the GDB.
I agree here. I think the lack leadership is the issue in Tuluk.
You mean PC leadership...in the Byn...in Tuluk? The organization that is (still at present) rather persona non grata in Tuluk?
Yes, there is an absence of the Byn in Tuluk. And their PC leadership.
Not the Byn...just in general PC leadership.
Or maybe my playtimes are shit and I don't get that much player to player interaction. or I don't where to look.
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 11:44:41 AM
We've also been told that Tuluk is the very safest environment, as you've said, and I believe we have someone working on a solution to that right now as well. Be careful what you wish for.
(http://www.quickmeme.com/img/3b/3b84cd3513d3cb4cf5acd4de5109d4afe2bdd5232cf7bd9ea8dc888fd76fc2a5.jpg)
I suppose my only complaint is being usually completely in the dark when playing a subsistence-level, no-politics indie. Go non-humans and this could become a permanent state of living without any effort on your part. I'm glad to hear the atmosphere is getting some fresh toppings.
I know, I know. "Don't expect anything in other people's plotz without some effort." What it is is I'm spoiled on the relatively open flow of information and events that is available to uninvolved indies outside of Tuluk as opposed to inside. And the very nature of Tuluk could make even rare instances of this really cool. Like a Templar making some Kuraci guy get off his stool after telling the bar that X person died to Y, and 'correcting' him that X person died to Z instead, or that X person sounded like a figment of his imagination and he should be careful because this bar's wine is quite strong, even though they both know that half the people at the tavern saw that guy die.
Quote from: Barsook on February 05, 2014, 12:06:08 PM
Not the Byn...just in general PC leadership.
Yeah, fuck THOSE guys, am I right?
(edit to add: I'm being sarcastic, just pointing out that it really isn't good form to blame people that ARE playing sponsored roles when you are not)
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 09:25:16 AM
What is it that you find intimidating about Tuluk? What makes you hesitant?
I have played in Tuluk, Nyr. Albeit obviously a lot less since my 100 playdayish characters have mostly been centered around Allanak. Tuluk has given me as a GMT based player an empty city, a death by nooblar, stranded as a bynner.. and so-so experiences. And frankly recently it's OOC reputation is off-putting. And I once brought up my desire to play in Tuluk with a former player to garner ideas for some application - they immediately fired back with the "you can't handle x or y role there" and gave me the superior attitude because I was a known Allanaki player.
And for crying out loud, can no one see a fault with a setting that has been 'controversial' since I joined the forum? And a location in the game which has lead to more players 'playing it wrong' than any other? (How many nobles have you force stored?) There is a no way there are more people who would be serious about closing down Allanak rather than Tuluk for example. And you can't give me the players are bad game designers argument, because most staff are former players.
No doubt there are players who don't understand why Allanak continually has gotten less love from staff, but more from players. It's rooms are comperatively out-dated, it's shops are sparser, it has less staffers on its team (and hasn't a fixed all-mighty Nyr) and so on. I feel like Tuluk is on life-support from staff, all events happened to it are forced from your side - major political changes, geographical. While the south only has a volcano and some riots - no major political upheaval of social norms or systems. (How much staff effort has gone in to both cities in comparison for the nobles governing. You shut down the Allanaki senate over five years ago.)
These are just the reasons on top of my head why I picked Allanak over Tuluk this time around. However, my next planned concept is actually a Tuluki. It isn't to say I won't play a Tuluki ever. But you asked.
Quote from: Voular on February 05, 2014, 12:17:44 PM
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 09:25:16 AM
What is it that you find intimidating about Tuluk? What makes you hesitant?
I have played in Tuluk, Nyr. Albeit obviously a lot less since my 100 playdayish characters have mostly been centered around Allanak. Tuluk has given me as a GMT based player an empty city, a death by nooblar, stranded as a bynner.. and so-so experiences. And frankly recently it's OOC reputation is off-putting. And I once brought up my desire to play in Tuluk with a former player to garner ideas for some application - they immediately fired back with the "you can't handle x or y role there" and gave me the superior attitude because I was a known Allanaki player.
Your mistake here seems to be giving a shit about what a former player thinks of the game when the opinion they're offering is non-constructive. Unless you mean you tried to get some advice when they were a player... in which case you're going off of one Tuluk player to generalize about the type of person who plays in Tuluk.
I played in Tuluk. I like Tuluk. I try to say to a player struggling in Tuluk that Tuluk is a little different from Allanak, that you have to adjust and get involved a bit more in order to see a bigger picture. The response is that they want to play in Tuluk exactly like they play in Allanak without a whole lot of adjustment or that they want to have the freedom of being an indie with the view into the back-rooms that a moderately-established partisan or employee would have. It's just not that easy. It's a little more of a challenge, it takes a little more of a time investment. It takes some patience. But it is possible to have lots of fun in Tuluk and to have fun for a long time.
With regards to favoritism, many of the changes in Tuluk over the past few years were player-initiated. The rest of the changes were staff-initiated. When I look at Tuluk I don't see a city that's on life-support, I see something that's dynamic and changes usually with player actions, sometimes with some leading-on from staff and sometimes not, but usually with their help to put in the coded changes.
Quote from: Voular on February 05, 2014, 12:17:44 PM
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 09:25:16 AM
What is it that you find intimidating about Tuluk? What makes you hesitant?
I have played in Tuluk, Nyr. Albeit obviously a lot less since my 100 playdayish characters have mostly been centered around Allanak.
But have you played a
Tuluki? I mean, it's a bit of a rhetorical question, I do know what you've played, but I'm making a point here. If you plan to snipe at how bad it is yet you've really only played a single Tuluki...for a week...maybe it's not that bad!
QuoteTuluk has given me as a GMT based player an empty city, a death by nooblar, stranded as a bynner.. and so-so experiences. And frankly recently it's OOC reputation is off-putting. And I once brought up my desire to play in Tuluk with a former player to garner ideas for some application - they immediately fired back with the "you can't handle x or y role there" and gave me the superior attitude because I was a known Allanaki player.
What about its OOC reputation is off-putting? I'm sorry the other player told you that you couldn't handle Tuluk. They sound like a douche. Give 'em the bird next time; you're an intelligent person and you can handle roleplaying.
QuoteAnd for crying out loud, can no one see a fault with a setting that has been 'controversial' since I joined the forum?
You can see a fault with it, you're doing it right here. I gather that you do not like it.
QuoteAnd a location in the game which has lead to more players 'playing it wrong' than any other?
Has it? Maybe. Not really sure if there's a way to determine metrics on that, people correct roleplay on a regular basis in most cases, right?
Quote(How many nobles have you force stored?)
...two? Ever?
QuoteThere is a no way there are more people who would be serious about closing down Allanak rather than Tuluk for example. And you can't give me the players are bad game designers argument, because most staff are former players.
What relevance does this have? I get that you like Allanak more than Tuluk, but this argument is fairly irrelevant.
QuoteNo doubt there are players who don't understand why Allanak continually has gotten less love from staff, but more from players.
Because why fix what isn't broken? There is work to do but nothing on the scale of building a foundation of documentation for an entire city-state. The only reason it hasn't been done to this extent til now is because it took a shit-ton of work to plan an HRPT to do enough "damage" to result in an upheaval.
QuoteIt's rooms are comperatively out-datted
I think they've had more building work in the past year than Tuluk has. Labyrinth revamp, temples, etc.
Quote
, it's shops are sparses,
Again, it works, why 'fix' it?
Quoteit has less staffers on its team
More often than not, we've rolled with 1 administrator and 1 storyteller. Whether that be due to IRL stuff with the other ST or whatnot, we have actually been somewhat shorthanded even though we've had 1 admin + 2 storytellers on paper. We only recently got another storyteller within the past
month. Allanak has an admin and two storytellers. They've also been shorthanded at times (on paper).
Having fewer staffers doesn't mean it's the "shit" team. It means that there are things that go on beyond the scope of game work, like RL schedules for staffers and the like!
QuoteI feel like Tuluk is on life-support from staff, all events happened to it are forced from your side - major political changes, geographical.
Well, we brought in spy roles with the opportunity existent for any of them to be caught, a role specifically meant to die in the HRPT (which did), and yes, we've been pushing some staff-side plots. Somehow that means Tuluk is on life-support, I guess. Life-support has been upgraded since I last heard about it. If we're going to do a full sweep of things, we may as well try to involve players, and that is what we did at every step of the way.
QuoteWhile the south only has a volcano and some riots - no major political upheaval of social norms or systems. (How much staff effort has gone in to both cities in comparison for the nobles governing. You shut down the Allanaki senate over five years ago.)
Again, why fix what isn't broken? You point out here how much you hate Tuluk and how much it is intimidating and how it sucks and what-not, I point out that we're actually working to collect things, expand docs, etc--make it make sense, have a foundation, etc--and then you're saying "well obviously Allanak is getting the short end of the stick!" There have been no major pushes to change Allanak because Allanak works fairly well on its own. It can use some love (and it has gotten it, not sure how you've missed the building work), but it's more of a tender loving care thing rather than a full frontal lobotomy and colorectal cleanse.
That may come as a shock to some people, I dunno. We on staff love Allanak. I've had some great PCs from there and from Luir's, too. It might need a bit of tweaking here and there, it might need a documentation revamp/overhaul just like every other clan has gotten/will get, but a complete "from the ground up" workover that requires stripping out stuff that simply sucks ass? It doesn't
need that.
We on staff also tend to...tolerate...Tuluk. Even when we're putting through these changes and stuff, we have to (at times) grab the reins and yank the player towards "THIS IS HOW THINGS ARE NOW." It is frustrating to have to do that. There are parts we like. There are parts that need work. And there are parts that raised enough ire over enough time that it resulted in an HRPT as the only plot-sized vehicle that could effect that much change. As someone invested in over ten thousand words of documentation changes in the templarate alone, let me be the first to say that I have mixed opinions about the city-state of Tuluk. While working on something that absolutely blows that must be fixed, I despise it. When animating something with the rest of our wonderful team to show the new change, I love it. When explaining how it could be and how it should be and how it (hopefully) will be with some additional work, I love it as well. It's the same feeling I've gotten working on fixing stuff in other clans I've handled.
And that's why I wanted to see this thread, anyway. I may not tell you directly what we're going to do, but the positive (and negative) feedback lets us know what might need tweaking and what is working.
Shut down the Senate? Honestly, PCs shouldn't be in positions of that much power. The Senate still exists virtually. So does the Triumvirate. PC governors are (at present) in a position of figurehead power for their House. And we've had trouble with that, because we had to fix it once just to get it to
that point, and it still doesn't make much sense...so as you can imagine, it is going to receive some attention.
Quote
These are just the reasons on top of my head why I picked Allanak over Tuluk this time around. However, my next planned concept is actually a Tuluki. It isn't to say I won't play a Tuluki ever. But you asked.
So what is it that intimidates you about Tuluk or makes you hesitant?
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on February 05, 2014, 10:10:38 AM
I reiterate. Make Sujaal's Museum the new Byn for Tuluk. There. That problem's solved.:-D
I've tried to do this across MULTIPLE PCs, to no avail.
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 11:59:43 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on February 05, 2014, 10:57:41 AM
My two sids:
I enjoyed Tuluk more when the Warrens were perceived as seedier than they are perceived. I also enjoyed Tuluk more when the Lirathans were Lirathans, but left the Heart more often to interact visibly with the playerbase. I also enjoyed Tuluk MUCH more when the UnderTuluk existed, because it was "the bogeyman" of Tuluk. On a world-reaching level, Allanak is the enemy. No doubt about that, I'm cool with it. But on a day-to-day level, what is Tuluk's antagonist? What is the antagonist that the players know, that their characters know, that they can roleplay out, in the open and in public? Nothing.
A rival House. A rival bard. A rival anything. Or we can go with the really easy answer that requires no work: nothing. There are no antagonists.
QuoteYou can't talk about oppression, even though you're surely being oppressed. You can't talk about magicks, you can't talk about assassinations, you can't talk about - well - pretty much anything significant. So bar talk ends up being totally meaningless idle chitchat and veiled innuendo that seems more like "inside jokes" to anyone who isn't in on it, creating resentment and disinterest on an OOC level as well as an IC level.
This has been brought up already as something to address; if you have something new to add, can you discuss it perhaps with that in mind?
QuoteI would love to see the ugly underbelly rise JUST enough to make sure everyone is aware that it exists, while keeping it ugly, and keeping it the underbelly. Not sanctioning it like they did with the Shadow Artists.
*waves hand*
"They" are right over here; "they" requested this thread.
Hi, Nyr here, I play an administrator in Tuluk but you might know me by other roles in the past.
The shadow artists were always "sanctioned" whatever, even back when you nostalgically loved (or say that you loved) the city. And even then they aren't the underbelly.
QuoteAdd a new section to the Warrens that isn't pretty and filled with lovely statues and NPCs who make gorgeous crafted things or whatever else, that is horrifying to those who don't live there - and is probably scary to those who do live there. I don't mean just on an IC level. I mean new players, and players new to the area - the *players* should have a gut-dropping experience, if they mistakenly or purposefully wandered in. Just like you have in the Rinth, and just like a rinthi would have if he's from the east side daring to cross to the west, and vice versa, just like anyone -rinthi or otherwise - would have, venturing into the sewers, just like anyone, resident or not, would have crossing into the depths of mantis territory.
The Warrens is by lore and documentation where 75% of the city lives; unless you're suggesting it should be a cesspit of squalor equivalent to the 'rinth (which you seem to be doing), it's going to have some gradient between scum and the city-equivalent of middle class. Building in some more stuff there might come up in the future, but this is not a primary goal at this time.
QuoteThere needs to be a place within the city, that is SCARY on an OOC *and* IC level. The only places right now that I know of like that, are restricted access and they're only scary because a soldier subdued you and dragged you there, or a Templar invited you to walk with them there.
Now, on that note, we sort of have something like that in mind. It's probably not what you are thinking, but hopefully it will come across in an interesting way.
QuoteSummary:
Scary location within the city needed. Place where mothers tell their kids the bogeyman will come out from and drag them to if they misbehave.
Templars need to be more *visibly* active to the entirety of the northern playerbase, not just to the favored citizens PCs.
Summary from me: If you had a bad experience in Tuluk and are only now voicing your concerns about it when you did nothing of the sort while playing there, you haven't done much to help review the problem as it was ongoing. Sure, you've pointed it out now, and that helps, but it's far more frustrating than being able to address something as it occurs.
We - are the players who started the thread and are the majority of people posting in it. If I had said "you," the majority of posters would've wondered which "you" I was talking about. I didn't think I needed to clarify that. My post was an opinion, not a direct response to anything you said or asked (you, being Nyr, who I see is right over there and by the way your pinky has a hangnail). This thread was started by Desertman, for us to express our ideas/suggestions for an increased playerbase in Tuluk. Regardless of who asked for the thread - in another thread. So "we" are the primary posters in this thread. "They" are the staff as a whole, of which you (Nyr) are only one.
Shadow artists didn't get their own official docs readily available to all players, before. Their existence a thing of mystery, IC and OOC. In other words, we players knew they existed, but had no idea they were a cohesive unit, working with specific restrictions/rules/regs/privileges, and knowing exactly what those rules/regs/restrictions/privileges are. Like - the Guild. Everyone knows the Guild exists. Everyone knows they're criminals. But not everyone knows what, precisely, they do - and how they're set up. That's part of what makes them nifty, interesting, attractive. That aspect of Shadow Artists no longer exists. I feel this created less interest rather than more, in the idea of playing in Tuluk as a whole.
No, the Warrens weren't completely filled with squalor but it does have its areas, and those areas used to have more of an impact on Tuluk play than it does now. Some of the room descriptions are the same as they used to be - and some of the NPCs are the same. They hint at how SOME of Warrens RP used to be. It is one example of some of the things that used to make Tuluk more interesting and attractive, that no longer exists. It's why I brought it up. Some areas of the Warrens could be made to host some of the kind of atmosphere I'm talking about. Not the whole Warrens.
Your comment about my asking what Tuluk's day-to-day antagonist doesn't even address the question. It addresses a question I wouldn't have asked, because it doesn't need to be asked. I'm not asking what any one individual's antagonist would be. Or what any one House's antagonist would be. I already specified down the post, which you have reminded me has also already been addressed, and suggested to me that it might not be addressed in the manner to which I am hoping.
I find Tuluk intimidating for many reasons... One only need hear about all of one's PCs friends, over multiple PCs, who you know from observing their characters have no particular loyalty to any city-state being disappeared over time. You eventually piece these things together over a distance IG and it makes you wonder, is this really the kind of environment I want to play in? I like to play wild, unpredictable poo stirrers, and I can't help but feel they will be eliminated quite quickly before any fun can be had. Then again, I'm biased because I never roll up a character in Tuluk these days, it's a vicious cycle. I do like the setting and all, and would like to explore more of it, but with the way I play I really do not think it will be a good fit. Undoubtedly the wildlife is very well suited to being able to skill up combat skills without a sparring partner, unlike Allanak where the first scrab you see will quite possibly immediately pinch your head off, or the second, or the third. So, Tuluk has a bit of draw to it, but the element of the law, and my obviously flawed perception of the culture of keeping things hush-hush forever, keep me from playing there. Kind of like the small-talk-only policy of Red Storm, or the lack of storage lockers in Luir's Outpost, though these things are hardly the same thing, they are things that simply do not appeal to me. So I guess my choices are Allanak or Luir's, really, because anywhere else seems rife with difficulty for me.
All that said, I haven't really done anything but admit my own ignorance, move along people, nothing to see here.
Quote from: Lizzie on February 05, 2014, 12:59:04 PM
Shadow artists didn't get their own official docs readily available to all players, before. Their existence a thing of mystery, IC and OOC. In other words, we players knew they existed, but had no idea they were a cohesive unit, working with specific restrictions/rules/regs/privileges, and knowing exactly what those rules/regs/restrictions/privileges are. Like - the Guild. Everyone knows the Guild exists. Everyone knows they're criminals. But not everyone knows what, precisely, they do - and how they're set up. That's part of what makes them nifty, interesting, attractive. That aspect of Shadow Artists no longer exists. I feel this created less interest rather than more, in the idea of playing in Tuluk as a whole.
Here's what the shadow artist docs said before:
Quotehey guys if you are a thief or an assassin get a tattoo and then you can kill and steal from people
much mystery
very secretive
such clearness
QuoteNo, the Warrens weren't completely filled with squalor but it does have its areas, and those areas used to have more of an impact on Tuluk play than it does now. Some of the room descriptions are the same as they used to be - and some of the NPCs are the same. They hint at how SOME of Warrens RP used to be. It is one example of some of the things that used to make Tuluk more interesting and attractive, that no longer exists. It's why I brought it up. Some areas of the Warrens could be made to host some of the kind of atmosphere I'm talking about. Not the whole Warrens.
Good, then we're on the same page.
Quote
Your comment about my asking what Tuluk's day-to-day antagonist doesn't even address the question. It addresses a question I wouldn't have asked, because it doesn't need to be asked. I'm not asking what any one individual's antagonist would be. Or what any one House's antagonist would be. I already specified down the post, which you have reminded me has also already been addressed, and suggested to me that it might not be addressed in the manner to which I am hoping.
Okay.
Quote from: Fujikoma on February 05, 2014, 01:00:53 PMUndoubtedly the wildlife is very well suited to being able to skill up combat skills without a sparring partner, unlike Allanak where the first scrab you see will quite possibly immediately pinch your head off, or the second, or the third. So, Tuluk has a bit of draw to it
(http://i.imgur.com/bWcJkQs.gif)
You. I like you.
For the record, there's official crime in Tuluk and there's unofficial crime in Tuluk.
We'll be making the latter more apparent in the future; fixing the official stuff was first in the list.
It's just not fun from the experience of an outsider. People watch you in silence. Maybe they make some subtle insults. Your character is quietly shunned, so why stay around when you can just go off somewhere and have more fun.
I think the real problem is I have scoured the markets and taverns in search of tea and found it lacking. I think there's more tea in Allanak!
Then again, perhaps when I get the chance I should look a little closer.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 05, 2014, 01:17:12 PM
It's just not fun from the experience of an outsider. People watch you in silence. Maybe they make some subtle insults. Your character is quietly shunned, so why stay around when you can just go off somewhere and have more fun.
Good feedback, this is actually something we want to address more readily in final part of the revamp. The whole "subtle" thing is a bit overdone sometimes.
Quote from: Fujikoma on February 05, 2014, 01:00:53 PM
I find Tuluk intimidating for many reasons... One only need hear about all of one's PCs friends, over multiple PCs, who you know from observing their characters have no particular loyalty to any city-state being disappeared over time. You eventually piece these things together over a distance IG and it makes you wonder, is this really the kind of environment I want to play in? I like to play wild, unpredictable poo stirrers, and I can't help but feel they will be eliminated quite quickly before any fun can be had. Then again, I'm biased because I never roll up a character in Tuluk these days, it's a vicious cycle. I do like the setting and all, and would like to explore more of it, but with the way I play I really do not think it will be a good fit. Undoubtedly the wildlife is very well suited to being able to skill up combat skills without a sparring partner, unlike Allanak where the first scrab you see will quite possibly immediately pinch your head off, or the second, or the third. So, Tuluk has a bit of draw to it, but the element of the law, and my obviously flawed perception of the culture of keeping things hush-hush forever, keep me from playing there. Kind of like the small-talk-only policy of Red Storm, or the lack of storage lockers in Luir's Outpost, though these things are hardly the same thing, they are things that simply do not appeal to me. So I guess my choices are Allanak or Luir's, really, because anywhere else seems rife with difficulty for me.
All that said, I haven't really done anything but admit my own ignorance, move along people, nothing to see here.
Another reason I'm really getting ticked off with playing in Tuluk. But I really don't like Allanak. Its put me in the place of the least of the two evils basically. There are several PCs who disappear and some of them aren't even for IG reasons. A lot of them are do to OOC conflicts that the players have had with staff. I enjoy Tuluk. I enjoy the environment. I love the mystery and the intrigue as well as the deep and rich culture. The bards, the music. The lack of dead bodies stacked up in the streets. The friendliness of the Chosen. The fear of the Faithful. The closeness to the Grey. So I chose this Tuluk over Allanak.
Quote from: Fujikoma on February 05, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
I think the real problem is I have scoured the markets and taverns in search of tea and found it lacking. I think there's more tea in Allanak!
Then again, perhaps when I get the chance I should look a little closer.
Lacking in tea? Just go pick some plants and make your own tea... Hmmm tea.......
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 01:06:27 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on February 05, 2014, 01:00:53 PMUndoubtedly the wildlife is very well suited to being able to skill up combat skills without a sparring partner, unlike Allanak where the first scrab you see will quite possibly immediately pinch your head off, or the second, or the third. So, Tuluk has a bit of draw to it
(http://i.imgur.com/bWcJkQs.gif)
You. I like you.
Yes, I am a shameless twink. It's what I do when I'm not busy stirring shit. I'm just horribly bad at both of them, but I much prefer the latter.
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on February 05, 2014, 01:31:52 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on February 05, 2014, 01:00:53 PM
I find Tuluk intimidating for many reasons... One only need hear about all of one's PCs friends, over multiple PCs, who you know from observing their characters have no particular loyalty to any city-state being disappeared over time. You eventually piece these things together over a distance IG and it makes you wonder, is this really the kind of environment I want to play in? I like to play wild, unpredictable poo stirrers, and I can't help but feel they will be eliminated quite quickly before any fun can be had. Then again, I'm biased because I never roll up a character in Tuluk these days, it's a vicious cycle. I do like the setting and all, and would like to explore more of it, but with the way I play I really do not think it will be a good fit. Undoubtedly the wildlife is very well suited to being able to skill up combat skills without a sparring partner, unlike Allanak where the first scrab you see will quite possibly immediately pinch your head off, or the second, or the third. So, Tuluk has a bit of draw to it, but the element of the law, and my obviously flawed perception of the culture of keeping things hush-hush forever, keep me from playing there. Kind of like the small-talk-only policy of Red Storm, or the lack of storage lockers in Luir's Outpost, though these things are hardly the same thing, they are things that simply do not appeal to me. So I guess my choices are Allanak or Luir's, really, because anywhere else seems rife with difficulty for me.
All that said, I haven't really done anything but admit my own ignorance, move along people, nothing to see here.
Another reason I'm really getting ticked off with playing in Tuluk. But I really don't like Allanak. Its put me in the place of the least of the two evils basically. There are several PCs who disappear and some of them aren't even for IG reasons. A lot of them are do to OOC conflicts that the players have had with staff. I enjoy Tuluk. I enjoy the environment. I love the mystery and the intrigue as well as the deep and rich culture. The bards, the music. The lack of dead bodies stacked up in the streets. The friendliness of the Chosen. The fear of the Faithful. The closeness to the Grey. So I chose this Tuluk over Allanak.
The share of PC deaths by disappearance is probably (I don't have access to any data if there even is any) rather small compared to other causes (hunting, stupid mistakes, murder, exploring etc). Deaths by disappearance lacking visible IG causes are surely even fewer. Any sponsored role regardless of location is fated to have a short career if they kill indiscriminately without being able to back it up with IG reasons and motives. Knowing that you could get disappeared (or the target of a legal assassination contract) if you stepped on the wrong toes has been adding to my own Tuluk experience over several past characters who were both citizens and non-citizens.
Thinking that PCs get killed over OOC conflicts with staff won't help making your Arm experience any better, to be honest with ya.
Oh, just saw this one:
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on February 05, 2014, 01:31:52 PMThere are several PCs who disappear and some of them aren't even for IG reasons. A lot of them are do to OOC conflicts that the players have had with staff.
...what? A lot of them?
Really?
I wish the Warrens had more emphasis. It seems like few people want to play ugly or mutie warrens spawn. My last PC there I had fun with because I made them extremely Warrens and not at all attractive but got them into the Legions where you had to pretend to be nice anyway. Too many beatiful people.
Would just like to say.
I'm a die-hard Allanak fan. Big time.
I am currently playing in Tuluk. Currently, I do -not- think a lot of these problems exist. You guys are being overanalytical. There is currently a downswing in population, which will rise again, as it tends to do. But mostly...the things I found subpar about Tuluk are either gone or fading, and things are still different from Allanak, but intriguing. Maybe it's new things for me to explore, culturally, or maybe it really is just that much better.
But I think this thread is wrong.
From an OOC perspective, the city is very large. I have had new players complain to me in the helper chat on multiple occasions about how long it takes to get from one place to another. From the cotton fields, to the Warrens, to the Poet's Circle...it is humongous. Not sure what could be done about that - just an observation.
When new players come to me and ask where I recommend they play, I say either Allanak or Tuluk. We discuss the pros and cons of each, but one of the "pros" of Tuluk is that it is much easier to survive there. A lot of new players find that appealing and make Tuluk their choice. So I'm pointing new players towards Tuluk all the time. These new players may not feel confident enough in the nuances and storytelling nature of the game to break out of the standard "brainwashed Muk Utep smiler" role that seems to be the "default" personality of Tuluk. And that's not a role that's very conducive towards murder, corruption, and betrayal - it would make Muk Utep sad. Tuluk could use more grit. Nice to hear staff say they're working on that.
That's not to say new accounts aren't choosing Allanak as much - I think it likely that they're choosing Allanak just as much, if not more. Nyr would know for sure. But like I said - one of the appeals of Tuluk to new players is how easy it is to survive there, so you'll have more new players starting in Tuluk who have a mindset of "I want to live!" rather than "I want action!"
From an OOC perspective, I agree. Pretty big area. I never even got to see it before it was this big (that's what she said?). Hopefully, the "directions" addition will help players new (and old) alike with finding stuff, though that won't affect the size of the place.
But have you played a Tuluki? I mean, it's a bit of a rhetorical question, I do know what you've played, but I'm making a point here. If you plan to snipe at how bad it is yet you've really only played a single Tuluki...for a week...maybe it's not that bad!
I am not sniping, dude. Sniping would imply I was being underhanded or malicious. I posted in this thread, right at you.
What about its OOC reputation is off-putting?
As my whole post pointed out - it's players and its staff. Guarded, reserved, unwelcoming. That is the reputation - I am not saying at all that it is that way in reality. (Since I havn't played in Tuluk in a while.)
What relevance does this have? [Closing down Tuluk vs. Allanak] I get that you like Allanak more than Tuluk, but this argument is fairly irrelevant.
No. If a majority of players prefer Allanak, and more resources are wasted on Tuluk - you don't see the problem? You admited yourself, Allanak isn't broken - needs less maintence and has a larger playerbase. Am I stuttering here?
Shut down the Senate? Honestly, PCs shouldn't be in positions of that much power. The Senate still exists virtually. So does the Triumvirate. PC governors are (at present) in a position of figurehead power for their House. And we've had trouble with that, because we had to fix it once just to get it to that point, and it still doesn't make much sense...so as you can imagine, it is going to receive some attention.
But you could still load up the senate floor every other month, put on a show for all the noble house employees and nobles - give them an insight and rumormill for what is going on behind the scene. Expand the world to something larger. I am sure it wouldn't take you long to write up a script for a senate floor hearing? Have a few staffers man some NPCs and act it all out. Giving everyone who watched the senate meeting something to gossip and angle about. Fuck, it's a god damn excellent idea. Houses would take the public senate days to air out certain shit they want to be gossiped about and so on..
Also hinting at who I play, Nyr, even subtley - ain't cool.
Quote from: Voular on February 05, 2014, 12:17:44 PM
No doubt there are players who don't understand why Allanak continually has gotten less love from staff, but more from players. It's rooms are comperatively out-dated, it's shops are sparser, it has less staffers on its team (and hasn't a fixed all-mighty Nyr) and so on.
If there is any real problem with any rooms/shops/whatever in Allanak, you could always typo it/submit a request about it.
I'm one of the new players that choose to play in Tuluk for the chance to survive a bit longer while I learned to play the game. In the time I've been playing, I've seen a fair few players die to the harsh environments around them, to plots they might have no idea they were a part of, to mistakes they made while hunting, to just about any reason you could come up with.
Not everyone is a happy smiley, Muk Utep brainwashed fluff bunny. If you take the time to invest rp into getting to know the people around you, then you'd be surprised at how different it can be compared to what people are saying in this thread.
There is a population downswing in Tuluk, even from when I started playing not too long ago. I'd like to think with incoming changes, and moving on past the busy Holiday season, that this will start to pick back up.
Tuluk is not Allanak, it never will be. However, Tuluk has the potential to be every single bit as dynamic and gritty as Allanak. It's what you, the player, make it, that effects exactly what type of experience you'll have.
Quote from: Voular on February 05, 2014, 02:30:51 PM
What about its OOC reputation is off-putting?
As my whole post pointed out - it's players and its staff. Guarded, reserved, unwelcoming. That is the reputation - I am not saying at all that it is that way in reality. (Since I havn't played in Tuluk in a while.)
Is it possible you were being overt and not subtle? I remember, before I really understood how not to act like a damn Allanaki as a Tuluki citizen, that people would often give me that exact treatment and wish to god I would figure it out soon. Of course, this is the current era of Way Too Subtle I'm speaking of, so if that is your problem, prepare for remedy!
Quote from: Cutthroat on February 05, 2014, 12:43:32 PM
...The response is that they want to play in Tuluk exactly like they play in Allanak without a whole lot of adjustment...
I don't think attempts to play less subtle, grittier, dare I say "Alanakish" characters should be entirely shut down in Tuluk. I think there should be a place for a little bit of that style of play; And that place is the Warrens.
I tend to prefer rping southernish types of characters, and as a result all but one of my Tuluki characters in the last five years have been from the warrens. They're not quite as 'in your face' crude as their southern counterparts were, but they certainly weren't high brow and their subtlety was limited. And every time people would point out how bad a northerner they were I'd just respond that I grew up in the warrens, and that was the end of the discussion. Playing them as a contrast to proper and subtle actually ended up making them /more/ fun than if I'd played the same character in Alanak because they generated conflict just by being themselves in a place that was innately hostile to that sort of thing.
So for those of you that want to play gritty characters, you might just consider trying out a warrens-brat and see if you don't actually have more fun. Nothing brings out the dirt better than throwing it in a pile of silks.
Quote from: LittleLady on February 05, 2014, 02:42:24 PMTuluk is not Allanak, it never will be. However, Tuluk has the potential to be every single bit as dynamic and gritty as Allanak. It's what you, the player, make it, that effects exactly what type of experience you'll have.
Sure. Keep in mind that I'm not saying Tuluk is a bad city. I like it - it's got a lot of interesting ideas. It's also one of the funnest places to emote in and write descriptions for because everything is so lovely.
I just think the general consensus is that there's less conflict in Tuluk, or that more people in Tuluk will be predisposed to avoid conflict, or like avoiding conflict, or whatever. People are throwing around ideas of why that might be.
Quote from: Voular on February 05, 2014, 02:30:51 PM
As my whole post pointed out - it's players and its staff. Guarded, reserved, unwelcoming. That is the reputation - I am not saying at all that it is that way in reality. (Since I havn't played in Tuluk in a while.)
Your whole post didn't point that out, you only did now. So you don't like its players or its staff because they are "guarded, reserved, and unwelcoming." That's pretty broad, anything in particular that you can point to that can be reviewed?
QuoteNo. If a majority of players prefer Allanak, and more resources are wasted on Tuluk - you don't see the problem? You admited yourself, Allanak isn't broken - needs less maintence and has a larger playerbase. Am I stuttering here?
You aren't stuttering, but you aren't making much sense to me. Your point seems to be that a majority of people like Allanak more than Tuluk, so Tuluki staff should not "waste" time and energy on Tuluk that is going to be spent on it anyway (because each area is going to have staff assigned to it). You're also disregarding any and all work that has been done by the Allanak team (new Dragon temple, new elementalist stuff, new rinth stuff, documentation work, etc--probably more that I am not as familiar with), which probably isn't giving the best vibes to that team.
Quote
But you could still load up the senate floor every other month, put on a show for all the noble house employees and nobles - give them an insight and rumormill for what is going on behind the scene. Expand the world to something larger. I am sure it wouldn't take you long to write up a script for a senate floor hearing? Have a few staffers man some NPCs and act it all out. Giving everyone who watched the senate meeting something to gossip and angle about. Fuck, it's a god damn excellent idea. Houses would take the public senate days to air out certain shit they want to be gossiped about and so on..
Senate and Triumvirate meetings in Zalanthas are the kinds of things that the in-game administrations would adore and relish. House of Cards, except in Zalanthas! And procedural stuff that in general happens on a regular basis that would be kind of boring! Yet it affects so much, so it would be interesting!
What does that affect on the PC level? We've got these junior nobles coming in to something that is way, way, way over their heads. I'm not sure why noble house employees would be there but let's say they were for the sake of involving them in the shenanigans. What shenanigans, exactly? They have no say in what happens. They can't even add to the overall event. If they step out of line or act the fool, they'd be killed, no? That kind of thing wouldn't fly, so no, they just observe and have internal RP. In short, they are watching staff TV: staff set up a script and animate over a dozen different NPCs. On the business end of the animation, we probably won't have a dozen different staffers to do this. Hell, the last time there was an animated Triumvirate session, there were (maybe) two staffers doing it all, and it took a couple of hours from start to finish (with even more time spent planning out the dialogue/emotes/etc.).
While these meetings in Zalanthas are exciting for upper-crust Zalanthans and exciting for players lucky enough and privileged enough to be able to attend (whether or not this makes sense)...it is over the top in terms of staff effort vs player benefit. That is not to say it won't ever happen again, it is just an indication of how much work is involved in doing this kind of animation--so much work that it may well be unmanageable the majority of the time. It is easier and more efficient for us to relay the results of those meetings if they are relevant to anything ongoing. The player may miss out on an exclusive scenario, but the end result is the same: they know what happened in the meeting as far as it applies to their noble.
Quote
Also hinting at who I play, Nyr, even subtley - ain't cool.
I haven't hinted at who you play. I said you played one Tuluki for a week. I didn't say when. It is incredibly doubtful that anyone would know who I'm talking about by me saying "you played a Tuluki for a week."
Quote from: LauraMars on February 05, 2014, 03:08:05 PM
Quote from: LittleLady on February 05, 2014, 02:42:24 PMTuluk is not Allanak, it never will be. However, Tuluk has the potential to be every single bit as dynamic and gritty as Allanak. It's what you, the player, make it, that effects exactly what type of experience you'll have.
Sure. Keep in mind that I'm not saying Tuluk is a bad city. I like it - it's got a lot of interesting ideas. It's also one of the funnest places to emote in and write descriptions for because everything is so lovely.
I just think the general consensus is that there's less conflict in Tuluk, or that more people in Tuluk will be predisposed to avoid conflict, or like avoiding conflict, or whatever. People are throwing around ideas of why that might be.
I think that there is less conflict in Tuluk, but the notion that the people who play in Tuluk desire less conflict or like avoiding it is very false. Conflict is there. The tensions required for conflict to quickly flare up is there... and, personally, I don't think it would take a very big push to spark it off.
In general, I think that people who don't normally play in Tuluk should give it an honest shot. Get past that adjustment period of playing something out of the norm, and see if they can't make a good go of the same concepts they would play elsewhere (if not in a slightly different way).
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 03:15:37 PM
Your whole post didn't point that out, you only did now. So you don't like its players or its staff because they are "guarded, reserved, and unwelcoming." That's pretty broad, anything in particular that you can point to that can be reviewed?
I have no idea what it is all about, Nyr - it's the god damn rumor and vibe of it that I pick up from the forums.
QuoteYou aren't stuttering, but you aren't making much sense to me. Your point seems to be that a majority of people like Allanak more than Tuluk, so Tuluki staff should not "waste" time and energy on Tuluk that is going to be spent on it anyway (because each area is going to have staff assigned to it). You're also disregarding any and all work that has been done by the Allanak team (new Dragon temple, new elementalist stuff, new rinth stuff, documentation work, etc--probably more that I am not as familiar with), which probably isn't giving the best vibes to that team.
Don't imply either that I am down-putting the Allanaki's teams work. The 'rinth rework was awesome, the temple is cool, the gemmed quarter is/was however long overdue and took way longer that it should have - but that is neither here nor there. My post is yes, more people play in Allanak and HISTORICALLY it has gotten less work done that Tuluk has. Tuluk has had whole areas built up and razed (undertuluk?) while Allanak has recently gotten a minor facelift in areas accessible only by a minority of its players. Compaertively the overt work put into both are not equal, nor have they ever been. It doesn't mean that the efforts of the recent changes or the staff that staffed or are staffing Allanak isn't kank fucking awesome - because obviously it god damn is.
QuoteWhile these meetings in Zalanthas are exciting for upper-crust Zalanthans and exciting for players lucky enough and privileged enough to be able to attend (whether or not this makes sense)...it is over the top in terms of staff effort vs player benefit. That is not to say it won't ever happen again, it is just an indication of how much work is involved in doing this kind of animation--so much work that it may well be unmanageable the majority of the time. It is easier and more efficient for us to relay the results of those meetings if they are relevant to anything ongoing. The player may miss out on an exclusive scenario, but the end result is the same: they know what happened in the meeting as far as it applies to their noble.
Dude. The effort you take to reply on the forums, even while you are at uni or whatever - I am sure you could whip up a whole forty minute script of senate bullshit for players to marvel at. Have Morgenes setup it a script to play it out and roll the tape? You know it can be done cleverly. You don't actually have to possess fifteen NPCs and use the code. Especially if it's for onlookers.
Quote
I haven't hinted at who you play. I said you played one Tuluki for a week. I didn't say when. It is incredibly doubtful that anyone would know who I'm talking about by me saying "you played a Tuluki for a week."
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 12:58:09 PM
It can use some love (and it has gotten it, not sure how you've missed the building work), but it's more of a tender loving care thing rather than a full frontal lobotomy and colorectal cleanse.
If you don't realize your mistake there, leave it and don't censor it and your post. I am sure no one is smart enough to catch it at all.
I think one of the reasons that I'm not playing in tuluk as much is that I felt there was some official crime but any unofficial crime was almost always in the process of being brutally stomped out. :-\
Now this is my perception, opinion, whatever and thus could be wrong or might have changed but its still how I felt last I played there. Not to say I wouldn't play in tuluk again, just that if I do it will just be to make an indy hunter to idle with. Just be a random no name hunter that wanders around, be just another face in the crowd until i think of something better to do. I do enjoy those aimless roles though. :)
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on February 05, 2014, 01:34:15 PM
Quote from: Fujikoma on February 05, 2014, 01:25:32 PM
I think the real problem is I have scoured the markets and taverns in search of tea and found it lacking. I think there's more tea in Allanak!
Then again, perhaps when I get the chance I should look a little closer.
Lacking in tea? Just go pick some plants and make your own tea... Hmmm tea.......
Yeah, but the items (pots and cups) to make tea are in Allanak, not Tuluk. And that makes no sense. Though, a PC in Tuluk can try to change that.
Agreed. Finding a teapot shouldn't be an ordeal.
I've played quite a lot in Tuluk, but I'm playing in Allanak at the moment. Around this time last year, Tuluk was really hopping. It is worth repeating that population rises and falls cyclically. My next character will likely be a Tuluki. All the changes lately do make me a bit anxious, yes, but if they don't work out, staff will no doubt try something else.
If memory serves, you used to be able to buy a teapot in the Red Sun Commons, but that fellow got washed away in the Deluge. Somebody ought to add a teapot to the standard stock in the Kadian luxury shop.
OH! And spice hookahs.
Quote from: Voular on February 05, 2014, 03:29:42 PM
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 03:15:37 PM
Your whole post didn't point that out, you only did now. So you don't like its players or its staff because they are "guarded, reserved, and unwelcoming." That's pretty broad, anything in particular that you can point to that can be reviewed?
I have no idea what it is all about, Nyr - it's the god damn rumor and vibe of it that I pick up from the forums.
OK. So nothing that can be directly addressed at all, just vague stuff...just making sure we're on the same page. I'm afraid I can't help you at all with Tuluk if you don't have anything concrete to address. I even wrote up one or two detailed responses and you jumped right past them into incoherent complaints.
Quote
QuoteYou aren't stuttering, but you aren't making much sense to me. Your point seems to be that a majority of people like Allanak more than Tuluk, so Tuluki staff should not "waste" time and energy on Tuluk that is going to be spent on it anyway (because each area is going to have staff assigned to it). You're also disregarding any and all work that has been done by the Allanak team (new Dragon temple, new elementalist stuff, new rinth stuff, documentation work, etc--probably more that I am not as familiar with), which probably isn't giving the best vibes to that team.
Don't imply either that I am down-putting the Allanaki's teams work.
Ok, I'll just--
QuoteThe 'rinth rework was awesome, the temple is cool, the gemmed quarter is/was however long overdue and took way longer that it should have
--do my best to not point out how annoying this comes off, but I'm afraid I'll have to say something about it. You are acting here as though you are entitled to timely work on areas of your choice by any staff that you wish--all of this on a free game staffed by volunteers. I don't know what bug crawled up your butt today, but your pithy whining about Southern staff is out of line and inappropriate. Take it to the request tool in a professional manner if you have something legitimate to bring up with Allanaki staff (as Welda indicated above)...but if it's all going to be whining about how the Northlands team is reworking Tuluk and the Southlands team isn't doing what you want it to do, save yourself the trouble.
Tuluk sucks in some ways, but we're fixing it, and that makes you mad because of the amount of work involved in fixing it. It also makes you mad that Tuluk has had previous work done on it (that in retrospect has had hit-or-miss success, which is why we've taken a broader view than any of those previous times). Vast conspiracy? No. Just a matter of fixing things.
Allanak rocks, and Allanaki staff isn't forced to go to the extremes that we are, and that makes you mad because they don't have to do the same amount of work as northlands staff. Vast conspiracy? No. Just a matter of not having to go to those extremes and instead being able to work on improvements...which they are...as indicated (and more besides).
I'm sorry. That's just how it is. The changes and additions to Allanak aren't as widespread and world-affecting because Allanak isn't in such bad shape. If you believe it is, please address that appropriately with southern staff.
Quote
Dude. The effort you take to reply on the forums, even while you are at uni or whatever - I am sure you could whip up a whole forty minute script of senate bullshit for players to marvel at. Have Morgenes setup it a script to play it out and roll the tape? You know it can be done cleverly. You don't actually have to possess fifteen NPCs and use the code. Especially if it's for onlookers.
Apparently, it's not enough that I'm working on Tuluk (which is obviously not your cup of tea for reasons you are unclear about) and requested a thread to discuss...Tuluk...with players that might be interested in playing there, hoping to address problems. You've gone farther than discussing Tuluk (which you've barely done). You're now just whinging about Allanak--again, in a thread about
Tuluk--and now you want me to script up things that don't matter...for PCs that don't need it...in an area of the game I don't administrate. I would suggest making your own thread about your issues that you have with Allanak provided you can do so without coming off in an entitled fashion.
Quote
If you don't realize your mistake there, leave it and don't censor it and your post. I am sure no one is smart enough to catch it at all.
All of the things I mentioned are either on the GDB, the weekly update tool, or on the in-game boards. I wasn't sure how you'd miss it given the saturation. I guess now you're saying that you play an Allanaki and I've revealed your secret? OK, sorry about that.
You're grasping at things to be angry about now. Please just step away from the GDB and take a break.
Wild Swans by Jung Chang. I think of this book when I'm pondering on where I'd like to take Tuluk. The story of three generations of Chinese women starts with the brutality of the Warlords generations (how many centuries was that?) . The life of the serf seemed more brutalized and oppressed than anything I've seen in Allanak- it made Melenths seem like a picnic spot. Families clawed their way upwards by the fortune and favour of their immediate superiors or mentors.
The book passed on through the Japanese occupation (more brutality oppression, and information gathering) to the Revolution where the ideas of freedom to live as a human became accessible to the masses.
I like the feel of the next period under Madame Mao, when the liberals were routed. Very Xenophobic, very very Political Correct, particularly the relationships of neighbours. Winning favours/survival by sniffing out Incorrectness amongst your nearest and dearest. I'm not suggesting disappearances on that scale (!) and I don't know if we could achieve that atmosphere amongst PC's. I played Atonement on the last ship and that was an extremely claustrophobic, Politically Correct environment that made me wonder if I could experience something similar in the Ivory.
In checking on Wild Swans wiki I noticed this quote from the book.
QuoteThe Chinese seemed to be [not be] mourning Mao [nobody] in a heartfelt fashion. But I wondered how many of their tears [absence of tears] were genuine. People had practiced acting to such a degree that they confused it with their true feelings. Weeping for Mao [Not weeping for Nobody] was perhaps just another programmed act in their programmed lives.[5]
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 05, 2014, 03:42:57 PM
Agreed. Finding a teapot shouldn't be an ordeal.
I'll check into it.
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 05, 2014, 03:42:57 PM
Agreed. Finding a teapot shouldn't be an ordeal.
I'll check into it.
Not one, not two, but three teapots available where you folks were looking for it. That "dude in the commons" for the win (he looks exactly like the kind of guy that would sell you pot).
Hookahs...well, there's one House you can always go to to find them. I dunno that it is as necessary an item as tea since you can sniff or smoke spice without a hookah.
City-state PC population fluctuates. In the semi-short term I think it'll help once the reworked documentation is in place, and leader PCs (templars, nobles and others) get to work with said docs and non-leaders find new, interesting ways to fit in and have fun. A political scene that is more dynamic will hopefully emerge. Established leader PCs on all levels will always help to draw in fresh blood. Tuluk is going through a shift in more than one way, as previously described in this thread and others. While going through such changes has a certain appeal to some players, I'm sure it is also keeping some away (concerns over nobility opportunities, how the Artist system will work, what the "barricades" will come to mean and so on). Also, as someone mentioned, Tuluk has a few more moving parts than Allanak and when some are lacking (no bards, no established nobles etc), the city as an area of play can sometimes feel lacking/empty whatever the actual numbers say.
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 04:32:54 PM
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 05, 2014, 03:42:57 PM
Agreed. Finding a teapot shouldn't be an ordeal.
I'll check into it.
Not one, not two, but three teapots available where you folks were looking for it. That "dude in the commons" for the win (he looks exactly like the kind of guy that would sell you pot).
Hookahs...well, there's one House you can always go to to find them. I dunno that it is as necessary an item as tea since you can sniff or smoke spice without a hookah.
Thanks Nyr, but I think tea is still a roleplay prop. The Tea culture is not doc'd yet for the Known, I think it should, but I think I am be derailing this thread. So, is it okay if I make a new thread about tea and the Known? Or is it still a "Find out IC" thing.
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 04:26:28 PM
QuoteThe 'rinth rework was awesome, the temple is cool, the gemmed quarter is/was however long overdue and took way longer that it should have
--do my best to not point out how annoying this comes off, but I'm afraid I'll have to say something about it.
I was going to say something about this too but, uh, well. I was going to say that coded change of that scope takes an assload of time, and like Nyr pointed out these staff members are taking a lot of their own time to try to improve an incredibly complex game for better OOC management and IC enjoyment. To be honest? The gemmed quarter change didn't seem totally necessary. It looked more like something staff was trying to do to improve the game for gemmed mages, who seem to barely exceed elves in numbers. Until this thread I honestly thought it was just a result of a super secret plot.
Just for a barely relevant example, the Quest program can be downloaded for free from the internet, and lets you make text games, either I'm stupid at it or the complexity of games made with Quest compared to Arm is like compared a handful of peanuts to a cherry pie.
You might really be interested in making a Quest game too. You just might. You will work for a dozen hours on it. And you will not finish it, unless its a shit game with four rooms, six objects and two people. The program even takes care of most of the coded parts for you. But you're not going to finish it unless you want to work on it for at least a month. Its not a really good perspective for looking at Arm coding, but its the only one I have.
Quote from: solera on February 05, 2014, 04:27:02 PM
In checking on Wild Swans wiki I noticed this quote from the book.
QuoteThe Chinese seemed to be [not be] mourning Mao [nobody] in a heartfelt fashion. But I wondered how many of their tears [absence of tears] were genuine. People had practiced acting to such a degree that they confused it with their true feelings. Weeping for Mao [Not weeping for Nobody] was perhaps just another programmed act in their programmed lives.[5]
If this becomes even 20% of Tuluk's atmosphere I may just have a new favorite place to play.
I know I don't play there much, but that's because I like (other places) more. Its not a matter of 1st, 2nd and 6th place, but 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Other player's concerns about unofficial crime stifling make me leery because I know what its like to be a low-end, low-threat criminal hunted ruthlessly by soldiers who have forgotten that metagaming lies within us all, but I've always hoped that this was a rare occurrence. But the way Tuluki crime is set up, where templars knowing about unofficial crime genuinely believe that the culprit owes them a minimum of several small, I don't know. It looks easier to mess up to me.
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 04:32:54 PM
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 05, 2014, 03:42:57 PM
Agreed. Finding a teapot shouldn't be an ordeal.
I'll check into it.
Not one, not two, but three teapots available where you folks were looking for it. That "dude in the commons" for the win (he looks exactly like the kind of guy that would sell you pot).
Hookahs...well, there's one House you can always go to to find them. I dunno that it is as necessary an item as tea since you can sniff or smoke spice without a hookah.
I'm pretty familiar with most shop NPCs and spent maybe an hour or two here and there looking. Offered coins if others knew where. Tried to buy one from Kadius. If it is there maybe not too obvious or with two NPCs stacked and missed it. Limited supply?
Quote from: long live miley cyrus on February 05, 2014, 04:58:06 PM
Quote from: solera on February 05, 2014, 04:27:02 PM
In checking on Wild Swans wiki I noticed this quote from the book.
QuoteThe Chinese seemed to be [not be] mourning Mao [nobody] in a heartfelt fashion. But I wondered how many of their tears [absence of tears] were genuine. People had practiced acting to such a degree that they confused it with their true feelings. Weeping for Mao [Not weeping for Nobody] was perhaps just another programmed act in their programmed lives.[5]
If this becomes even 20% of Tuluk's atmosphere I may just have a new favorite place to play.
This caught my eye because it was exactly the experience of one of my past PC's. It was a hard to hide disappearance, everyday ones may be too subtle unless we have a master level Scan, unfortunately.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 05, 2014, 05:12:48 PM
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 04:32:54 PM
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 05, 2014, 03:42:57 PM
Agreed. Finding a teapot shouldn't be an ordeal.
I'll check into it.
Not one, not two, but three teapots available where you folks were looking for it. That "dude in the commons" for the win (he looks exactly like the kind of guy that would sell you pot).
Hookahs...well, there's one House you can always go to to find them. I dunno that it is as necessary an item as tea since you can sniff or smoke spice without a hookah.
I'm pretty familiar with most shop NPCs and spent maybe an hour or two here and there looking. Offered coins if others knew where. Tried to buy one from Kadius. If it is there maybe not too obvious or with two NPCs stacked and missed it. Limited supply?
One of my PC's tried to get a teapot from Kadius but no luck.
Quote from: Barsook on February 05, 2014, 05:15:53 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 05, 2014, 05:12:48 PM
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 04:32:54 PM
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 05, 2014, 03:42:57 PM
Agreed. Finding a teapot shouldn't be an ordeal.
I'll check into it.
Not one, not two, but three teapots available where you folks were looking for it. That "dude in the commons" for the win (he looks exactly like the kind of guy that would sell you pot).
Hookahs...well, there's one House you can always go to to find them. I dunno that it is as necessary an item as tea since you can sniff or smoke spice without a hookah.
I'm pretty familiar with most shop NPCs and spent maybe an hour or two here and there looking. Offered coins if others knew where. Tried to buy one from Kadius. If it is there maybe not too obvious or with two NPCs stacked and missed it. Limited supply?
One of my PC's tried to get a teapot from Kadius but no luck.
It is the dude in the commons.
Ah, thank you.
I would like to comment on the gemmed quarter thing. There is perfectly good IC reasons for why things are being done how they are, and it seems kinda rude to complain it isn't getting done soon enough. I'm not trying to be mean or hostile, but Voular you tend to come off seeming really entitled and pointlessly argumentative. I say this only because if you want folks to listen to you, best way is to be more moderate and negotiable.
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 09:25:16 AM
What is it that you find intimidating about Tuluk? What makes you hesitant?
I'll preface my post by saying I'm not currently very familiar with Tuluk. I haven't played a character that set foot in Tuluk since 2012. Obviously, a lot has changed...
Initially, I played almost primarily in Tuluk for many years. It was my favorite city. My opinion began to change following the end of the Allanaki Empire plot and the liberation of Tuluk. I always hear players saying on the GDB that Tuluk is an easy place to live. I disagree with this. Perhaps it's because most of my characters are killed by PCs and not NPC "monsters". Frequently, my adversaries were PC templars. In the past, I've found that Allanaki templars were more likely to be corrupt and more likely to deal out punishment that your character survived. Tuluki templars wouldn't take bribes or accept promises of service. Instead, I always ended up on the wrong end of the executioner's axe. I tried playing on the other side by serving as a templar's cohort. I played as a spy and an assassin for a templar. Eventually, I was given the task of executing an Allanaki noble. After months of planning, I finally assassinated the noble and returned to Tuluk expecting my promised reward. Instead, I got executed again. These deaths left a sour taste in my mouth and I started playing more in Allanak. I had more fun and stayed there. To stress my point that it's actually easier to survive in Allanak than Tuluk, consider this. If you play a rogue magicker in Tuluk and you get caught, you get executed. If you play the same character in Allanak and you get caught, you can beg to take the gem and live on to continue your character's story with a new twist. Consider a nonmagickal criminal, there's really nowhere to hide in Tuluk if you end up being wanted. In Allanak, you can escape to the labyrinth and live to steal another day. If you want to play a raider around Alllanak, you can live in Red Storm. There's no equivalent place like this near Tuluk. If you tried playing a raider in Luir's, it wouldn't take long for the PC templars and nobles of Tuluk to bribe a PC Kuraci and you'd be dead. I think the difficulty of playing an anti-Tuluki character based in the north predisposes everyone to work together. Thus the primary great advisary of many Tuluki PCs becomes a bahamet, a group of kryl, or a group of independent hunters/crafters quickly crushed under the boot of a GMH via templarate executions. I've only played Allanaki templars, so I've never read the Tuluki templar documents. Maybe the docs say you can't be corrupt and exectution is supose to be the primary form of punishment? Maybe I just got unlucky with my small sample size of characters? I don't know. The result was me playing more characters in Allanak.
However.... A lot has changed in Tuluk. I find a lot of these changes very interesting. The tattoos, the shadow artists, the barricades, and Nyr's post about House Dasari have all peaked my interest. I have plans to play several of my next characters in Tuluk. With the recent changes and my time of absence, I think I'll find Tuluk quite fun and exciting. Pretty soon, there will be a net increase in the Tuluki player base by one. Maybe I'll see you there?
When did Tuluk start getting referred to as Orwellian? I can only remember it happening in the last year or so? The term just comes with so much baggage, and now that staff are using it, changes my perception of what the new Tuluk was supposed to be at inception.
Not sure I like it, I dislike the 1984 setting as I never felt that it was realistic at all.
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 04:32:54 PM
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 04:27:36 PM
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 05, 2014, 03:42:57 PM
Agreed. Finding a teapot shouldn't be an ordeal.
I'll check into it.
Not one, not two, but three teapots available where you folks were looking for it. That "dude in the commons" for the win (he looks exactly like the kind of guy that would sell you pot).
Hookahs...well, there's one House you can always go to to find them. I dunno that it is as necessary an item as tea since you can sniff or smoke spice without a hookah.
I personally don't like hookahs in my Zalanthas. To that point you're basically filling the vase up with 2-3 water bottles every day you use it, which would turn into fuckall expensive. (and that's on a medium sized one - The only ones I've seen in Zalanthas are huge.)
Not to mention that the shisha isn't dry for a reason. Spice, so far as we know, doesn't come in sticky concoctions of honey, glycerin, and syrup. The honey and the syrup give the shisha (and in my fantasy, spice) it's flavor, while the glycerin keeps it from burning within the bowl. I'll waylay the fact that most everyone uses tin foil to keep the coals off of the tobacco because they also (in the middle east) lay the coal right on the shisha, but I'm not sure what chemicals they put in their tobacco to keep it from burning like that.
So despite my RL love for shisha and hookah, I really don't see how there appears to be a few of these things in game... Ohwait... Tuluk.
Uh...
Muk Utep is a ginger.
You know hookahs have been around a lot longer than tin foul has.
Quote from: williamson on February 05, 2014, 07:15:06 PM
Quote from: Nyr on February 05, 2014, 09:25:16 AM
What is it that you find intimidating about Tuluk? What makes you hesitant?
I'll preface my post by saying I'm not currently very familiar with Tuluk. I haven't played a character that set foot in Tuluk since 2012. Obviously, a lot has changed...
Initially, I played almost primarily in Tuluk for many years. It was my favorite city. My opinion began to change following the end of the Allanaki Empire plot and the liberation of Tuluk. I always hear players saying on the GDB that Tuluk is an easy place to live. I disagree with this. Perhaps it's because most of my characters are killed by PCs and not NPC "monsters". Frequently, my adversaries were PC templars. In the past, I've found that Allanaki templars were more likely to be corrupt and more likely to deal out punishment that your character survived. Tuluki templars wouldn't take bribes or accept promises of service. Instead, I always ended up on the wrong end of the executioner's axe. I tried playing on the other side by serving as a templar's cohort. I played as a spy and an assassin for a templar. Eventually, I was given the task of executing an Allanaki noble. After months of planning, I finally assassinated the noble and returned to Tuluk expecting my promised reward. Instead, I got executed again. These deaths left a sour taste in my mouth and I started playing more in Allanak. I had more fun and stayed there. To stress my point that it's actually easier to survive in Allanak than Tuluk, consider this. If you play a rogue magicker in Tuluk and you get caught, you get executed. If you play the same character in Allanak and you get caught, you can beg to take the gem and live on to continue your character's story with a new twist. Consider a nonmagickal criminal, there's really nowhere to hide in Tuluk if you end up being wanted. In Allanak, you can escape to the labyrinth and live to steal another day. If you want to play a raider around Alllanak, you can live in Red Storm. There's no equivalent place like this near Tuluk. If you tried playing a raider in Luir's, it wouldn't take long for the PC templars and nobles of Tuluk to bribe a PC Kuraci and you'd be dead. I think the difficulty of playing an anti-Tuluki character based in the north predisposes everyone to work together. Thus the primary great advisary of many Tuluki PCs becomes a bahamet, a group of kryl, or a group of independent hunters/crafters quickly crushed under the boot of a GMH via templarate executions. I've only played Allanaki templars, so I've never read the Tuluki templar documents. Maybe the docs say you can't be corrupt and exectution is supose to be the primary form of punishment? Maybe I just got unlucky with my small sample size of characters? I don't know. The result was me playing more characters in Allanak.
However.... A lot has changed in Tuluk. I find a lot of these changes very interesting. The tattoos, the shadow artists, the barricades, and Nyr's post about House Dasari have all peaked my interest. I have plans to play several of my next characters in Tuluk. With the recent changes and my time of absence, I think I'll find Tuluk quite fun and exciting. Pretty soon, there will be a net increase in the Tuluki player base by one. Maybe I'll see you there?
That's a really honest assessment, thanks for your feedback. Some good points there that we have (at the very least) mentioned on our side of things.
Quote from: Twilight on February 05, 2014, 08:46:54 PM
When did Tuluk start getting referred to as Orwellian? I can only remember it happening in the last year or so? The term just comes with so much baggage, and now that staff are using it, changes my perception of what the new Tuluk was supposed to be at inception.
Not sure I like it, I dislike the 1984 setting as I never felt that it was realistic at all.
I wrote up a post that explained some of that...I felt as though it went into detail as to what that the influence of Tuluk should be. It's over here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46939.msg802609.html#msg802609). By no means am I saying Tuluk should be like 1984, only that it should take some influence from that (it is the most recognizable source that folks may be familiar with, though other posters here have detailed other potential influences) as well as its tribal origins.
As for when it started getting referred to as Orwellian, you can see references to it as early as 2003 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,4445.msg37757.html#msg37757) and again by a player in 2005 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,14033.msg143999.html#msg143999).
Quote from: HavokBlue on February 05, 2014, 09:36:26 PM
You know hookahs have been around a lot longer than tin foul has.
Hence the part about people laying the coal right on the shisha. Point being, spice doesn't have glycerin in it to slow the burning.
You don't know what spice has in it.
spice is also not real.
Quote from: HavokBlue on February 05, 2014, 09:39:27 PM
You don't know what spice has in it.
spice is also not real.
You can stick your spice in a pipe and smoke it. That means you can catch it on fire in some way shape or form without horrible hassle.
No, I don't know the chemical ingredients of spice, but that doesn't mean it's going to be perfect for -every- way we humans use tobacco.
Quote from: bcw81 on February 05, 2014, 09:38:40 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on February 05, 2014, 09:36:26 PM
You know hookahs have been around a lot longer than tin foul has.
Hence the part about people laying the coal right on the shisha. Point being, spice doesn't have glycerin in it to slow the burning.
There are very viscous spices, actually. It's not all dry powder. Also you don't HAVE to change the water, and you can easily use other liquids too, in a hookah.
Just because you can stick it in a pipe and smoke it doesn't mean it doesn't have trouble catchign fire. I smoke hash in a pipe all the time.
Should we start a spice thread?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 05, 2014, 09:42:59 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on February 05, 2014, 09:38:40 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on February 05, 2014, 09:36:26 PM
You know hookahs have been around a lot longer than tin foul has.
Hence the part about people laying the coal right on the shisha. Point being, spice doesn't have glycerin in it to slow the burning.
There are very viscous spices, actually. It's not all dry powder. Also you don't HAVE to change the water, and you can easily use other liquids too, in a hookah.
Just because you can stick it in a pipe and smoke it doesn't mean it doesn't have trouble catchign fire. I smoke hash in a pipe all the time.
You have a point, except the water changing thing. If you aren't changing your water after a day or so, you're going to have a bad time. (Read: Headaches the size of a college frats' after a superbowl party.)
Quote from: bcw81 on February 05, 2014, 09:47:34 PM
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 05, 2014, 09:42:59 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on February 05, 2014, 09:38:40 PM
Quote from: HavokBlue on February 05, 2014, 09:36:26 PM
You know hookahs have been around a lot longer than tin foul has.
Hence the part about people laying the coal right on the shisha. Point being, spice doesn't have glycerin in it to slow the burning.
There are very viscous spices, actually. It's not all dry powder. Also you don't HAVE to change the water, and you can easily use other liquids too, in a hookah.
Just because you can stick it in a pipe and smoke it doesn't mean it doesn't have trouble catchign fire. I smoke hash in a pipe all the time.
You have a point, except the water changing thing. If you aren't changing your water after a day or so, you're going to have a bad time. (Read: Headaches the size of a college frats' after a superbowl party.)
I'm not a big shisha/hookah user, but I can go literally months without changing my bong-water without anything other than ruining the flavor of my hits.
Tabacco does suck though, so it wouldn't surprise me if that did happen.
Edit: But we're not talking about tobacco, are we?
Quote from: KankWhisperer on February 05, 2014, 02:03:32 PM
I wish the Warrens had more emphasis. It seems like few people want to play ugly or mutie warrens spawn. My last PC there I had fun with because I made them extremely Warrens and not at all attractive but got them into the Legions where you had to pretend to be nice anyway. Too many beatiful people.
Right den. *bobs his head*.. stupid promotion curse..
I don't think it's quite as bad as is being made out. There have been points relatively recently where I've seen 6 or 7 PCs in a tavern. However, there appears to be a high proportion of clanned PCs in Tuluk at present, and they have other legitimate meeting places to conduct their business - this may contribute to some tavern emptiness.
I think Tuluk does suffer more heavily when it has low numbers of tavern-sitters, because these are generally split over three taverns some distance apart.
With regard to Tuluk and 1984, I think a substantial current problem is that we only largely see only one part of 1984 in game - whispers and disappearances. This has a chilling effect on the distribution of news and gossip, and makes the setting seem blander than it is. Besides this, silent disappearances aren't altogether effective at causing fear on a MUD where people can lose their characters to an unfortunate hunting trip, be assassinated or even just get bored and store.
A central thread in 1984 and the totalitarian regimes it drew inspiration from was propaganda. I feel there should be an official story that a loyal Tuluki can believe in, not an absence of any story at all. The Party of 1984 manufactured conflict to draw the faithful together with the Two Minute Hate, and had all sorts of bogeymen for good citizens to fear: foreigners and saboteurs and traitors. I'd like to see more events twisted to fit an official story, not simply erased, disappeared people denounced as traitors or other undesirables (I think this works better than simple disappearance in a context where PCs can disappear for entirely non-sinister reasons), and events that don't harm that story allowed to spread. I think this has happened to some extent with some of the staff-sponsored RPTs, but there's still a tendency for any event that could be considered negative from any angle at all to entirely disappear from the record at once, and where there's no juicy gossip the taverns can get a little dull.
Also, in 1984, the proles were largely ignored, apart from the occasional cull of one judged capable of becoming dangerous. "There was a vast amount of criminality in London, a whole world-within-a-world of thieves, bandits, prostitutes, drug-peddlers, and racketeers of every description; but since it all happened among the proles themselves, it was of no importance." Some sense of this wildness would go a long way to liven up the setting - perhaps this is already in the works with the "scarier" area planned in Tuluk.
Quote from: Quirk on February 06, 2014, 07:43:11 AM
With regard to Tuluk and 1984, I think a substantial current problem is that we only largely see only one part of 1984 in game - whispers and disappearances. This has a chilling effect on the distribution of news and gossip, and makes the setting seem blander than it is. Besides this, silent disappearances aren't altogether effective at causing fear on a MUD where people can lose their characters to an unfortunate hunting trip, be assassinated or even just get bored and store.
A central thread in 1984 and the totalitarian regimes it drew inspiration from was propaganda. I feel there should be an official story that a loyal Tuluki can believe in, not an absence of any story at all. The Party of 1984 manufactured conflict to draw the faithful together with the Two Minute Hate, and had all sorts of bogeymen for good citizens to fear: foreigners and saboteurs and traitors. I'd like to see more events twisted to fit an official story, not simply erased, disappeared people denounced as traitors or other undesirables (I think this works better than simple disappearance in a context where PCs can disappear for entirely non-sinister reasons), and events that don't harm that story allowed to spread. I think this has happened to some extent with some of the staff-sponsored RPTs, but there's still a tendency for any event that could be considered negative from any angle at all to entirely disappear from the record at once, and where there's no juicy gossip the taverns can get a little dull.
This is so very true. I couldn't agree more or have said it better.
Quote from: Quirk on February 06, 2014, 07:43:11 AM
A central thread in 1984 and the totalitarian regimes it drew inspiration from was propaganda. I feel there should be an official story that a loyal Tuluki can believe in, not an absence of any story at all. The Party of 1984 manufactured conflict to draw the faithful together with the Two Minute Hate, and had all sorts of bogeymen for good citizens to fear: foreigners and saboteurs and traitors. I'd like to see more events twisted to fit an official story, not simply erased, disappeared people denounced as traitors or other undesirables (I think this works better than simple disappearance in a context where PCs can disappear for entirely non-sinister reasons), and events that don't harm that story allowed to spread. I think this has happened to some extent with some of the staff-sponsored RPTs, but there's still a tendency for any event that could be considered negative from any angle at all to entirely disappear from the record at once, and where there's no juicy gossip the taverns can get a little dull.
Some fun stuff there.
It strikes me as obvious now -- Tulukis should be able to talk about stuff like magick and commie mutant traitors openly, so long as they're following the party line. Like, if your best friend Amos is denounced and disappears, you are practically required to talk smack about Amos, otherwise people might mistake you as his cohort in crime. The memory of Amos isn't erased: it's twisted into a new narrative.
You never liked Amos all that much. You always suspected he might be up to no good. Now that the pieces have fallen into place, it all makes perfect sense. His crimes are obvious, and there's certain to be more that's yet to be uncovered.
The interesting bit is, of course, that Amos might have actually been the perfect Tuluki citizen, and an excellent and helpful person besides, who just ended up being the sacrificial pawn in a petty political struggle. But since he's been denounced, everything good he ever did is washed away. He's now every bit as evil as an Allanaki magicker, and has been horrible his entire life. The templars showed so much patience with him, hoping he would see the Light, but in the end, he rejected the mercy of the Sun King, and so now must face justice.
I see propaganda whenever I play in Tuluk.
It IS subtle sometimes, but certainly there. It is a city of art, after all...
And people talk plenty about abominations, traitors, and the south. I think maybe because it isn't like Allanak, right in your face, it somehow gets missed.
It is all there.
Yeah, and I'm naked under my clothes and I'm pretty proud of it, but unless you're having sex with me you don't get to see it so you're missing out. I feel like Tuluk is a lot like that.
Uhm.
Is that a mudsex joke?!
In truth, sometimes you really have to set the example, and I've never found that truer than when one plays in Tuluk.
Over the past 7 or so years, across about the same number of PCs, I think I have learned absolutely nothing on how to function well anywhere higher than rock-bottom on Tuluk's social ladder. I'm almost 30 years old, and I still don't "get it."
So, when I play Tuluk, I always play right at the rock bottom.
On the few attempts that I have tried to play anything but the rock bottom, I was being pushed from all directions back to the rock bottom.
This is why I prefer Nak over Tuluk. Tuluk is pretty much the harshest social environment there could be. There isn't a single friend to be had in that city. Nak, on the other hand, feels a lot more like the real world to me. Tuluk, everyone is just an asshole.
So untrue saying there isn't a single friend to be had in Tuluk. There are plenty. I've never had problems finding friends no matter what my character was like.
Quote from: slvrmoontiger on February 09, 2014, 01:50:48 AM
So untrue saying there isn't a single friend to be had in Tuluk. There are plenty. I've never had problems finding friends no matter what my character was like.
I find this true of Armageddon in general. Friends are pretty easy to come by if you want them. Just stay alive for an IC year.
You know, I think that the difference between Allanak and Tuluk, aside from IC lore and whatnot, really boils down to the players. It takes a certain sort of player to enjoy all that Tuluk has to offer. The amount of work that staff has put into the place is admirable, and the quality is really great (I say that as someone who has visited Tuluk from time to time). But as a player, Allanak works for me, and Tuluk, so far, hasn't.
And you know what? I think that's alright. Much like Armageddon caters to a niche of role-players, and SoI to another, and so on and so forth, I think that within our community, a certain niche feel at home up North, while another niche can't be without His Shadow. There are other niche groups who prefer a tribal experience, or an independent role, and will gravitate towards those.
Maybe Tuluk will always err to the side of a lower player population - it always seemed to during my time here, which spans nearly 20 years. With higher numbers of players online, this difference really tends to be less noticeable. I don't really know that more can be done to make Tuluk appealing to those comfortable with Allanak, and I don't know that it should.
Quote from: Harmless on February 08, 2014, 11:17:48 PM
Over the past 7 or so years, across about the same number of PCs, I think I have learned absolutely nothing on how to function well anywhere higher than rock-bottom on Tuluk's social ladder. I'm almost 30 years old, and I still don't "get it."
So, when I play Tuluk, I always play right at the rock bottom.
On the few attempts that I have tried to play anything but the rock bottom, I was being pushed from all directions back to the rock bottom.
This is why I prefer Nak over Tuluk. Tuluk is pretty much the harshest social environment there could be. There isn't a single friend to be had in that city. Nak, on the other hand, feels a lot more like the real world to me. Tuluk, everyone is just an asshole.
I haven't found that at all. Maybe it's the characters you always play there? Or maybe it's something you project into your characters' personalities. I've played in Tuluk around the same amount that I've played in Allanak, I usually alternate between those two and Luir's as my characters' "base." Making friends is certainly one thing I've never had a problem with anywhere in the game, with any of my characters.
Now granted, those same friends could turn around a month later and hand you over to the templars, or set their pet gith on you, or run you through with their sword. But that's how the game is supposed to work, so if that's what is happening, then everything is groovy in Zalanthas.
Quote from: Lizzie on February 09, 2014, 07:54:51 AM
Now granted, those same friends could turn around a month later and hand you over to the templars, or set their pet gith on you, or run you through with their sword. But that's how the game is supposed to work, so if that's what is happening, then everything is groovy in Zalanthas.
This is exactly what I was getting at. The only times I wasn't eventually betrayed by my so-called Tuluki friends was when I had stored or gotten killed before it could happen. As soon as someone betrays you like that, they cease being your friend, retroactively. They were just waiting for the right time to use you.
In Nak? I dunno. Maybe I've been betrayed by my friends as often in Nak, but somehow, I don't think so. I think I had real friendships in Nak. It's a cultural difference. It's like friendships that form in the hood, versus what wasps do all day, cattily plot each others' ruin.
I should clarify. I spend a good number of my PCs in Tuluk (and Luir's and Nak, I mean, when you exceed 30 PCs you had to have played everywhere at some point). And I enjoy them. But, my Tuluk PCs are the hardest to play. It's the greatest challenge you can assign yourself, in my opinion. Putting those inks on. I do it when I'm in the mood for failure and loss.
When I play Nakkis, I play to win, more often. I think some of ya'll who know my recent PC from Nak know I played to win with them. That's never my attitude when I play Tuluk.
I've been told, I do a 180 with my PCs in terms of goals, personality, everything. A lot of it has to do with my views of Nak vs Tuluk. Thing is, Tuluk leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth almost every time, whereas Nak leaves me craving more.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on February 09, 2014, 05:27:26 AM
You know, I think that the difference between Allanak and Tuluk, aside from IC lore and whatnot, really boils down to the players. It takes a certain sort of player to enjoy all that Tuluk has to offer. The amount of work that staff has put into the place is admirable, and the quality is really great (I say that as someone who has visited Tuluk from time to time). But as a player, Allanak works for me, and Tuluk, so far, hasn't.
And you know what? I think that's alright. Much like Armageddon caters to a niche of role-players, and SoI to another, and so on and so forth, I think that within our community, a certain niche feel at home up North, while another niche can't be without His Shadow. There are other niche groups who prefer a tribal experience, or an independent role, and will gravitate towards those.
Maybe Tuluk will always err to the side of a lower player population - it always seemed to during my time here, which spans nearly 20 years. With higher numbers of players online, this difference really tends to be less noticeable. I don't really know that more can be done to make Tuluk appealing to those comfortable with Allanak, and I don't know that it should.
I very much agree with this. Tuluk's harsh brutality is there, hidden just beneath the surface where it belongs, and it can be very intriguing to play there because of it. One of my four favorite PCs was a sponsored role there (the others were one Naki leader, one naki gemmed viv, and one, indie/tribal ungemmed krathi). But as 7DV was saying, it takes a very different playstyle/mindset to thrive there. Many players, especially new ones, however prefer the open conflict as is seen in the rest of the world. They way Tuluk "works" is very special and intriguing, and I hope that the new vision staff is preparing for it does not stray too far from what makes it so desirable to its diehard fans and secret lovers, like me, when we choose to play there.
People have real friends in this game?!
Whaaaat.
Y'all, this isn't happy fun time game. It's Zalanthas!
Whether you're being OBVIOUSLY shanked or ganked in the middle of the street in Allanak, or are subtly, verbally cut down from a social ladder rung in Tuluk, you're gonna gain and lose friends. I mean, that's just how it works!
I guess I'm perplexed. Allanak and Tuluk are both harsh in different ways. But to say you can make more "friends" in one place or another, I suppose, isn't a great argument as to why the south is better than the north or vice versa.
And god dammit, 7DV is making me feel like a pariah, because I really enjoy every area in the game and just tend to mix it up so I don't stay somewhere too long with successive character.
Ehh... I just decided not to post this because... well, someone's gonna yell at me, threaten to ban me or whatever. Typical GDB stuff. gg tuluk.
I get that some people jive better in one place compared to another.
There's nothing wrong with that!
I just don't know that it's proper to denigrate one place over another for little things. That's all. :)
and I am NOT giving up on Tuluk.
Tuluk represents something really important to Zalanthas. Unfortunately, I don't know exactly what it is. I'm still trying to learn.
Quote from: Harmless on February 09, 2014, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on February 09, 2014, 07:54:51 AM
Now granted, those same friends could turn around a month later and hand you over to the templars, or set their pet gith on you, or run you through with their sword. But that's how the game is supposed to work, so if that's what is happening, then everything is groovy in Zalanthas.
This is exactly what I was getting at. The only times I wasn't eventually betrayed by my so-called Tuluki friends was when I had stored or gotten killed before it could happen. As soon as someone betrays you like that, they cease being your friend, retroactively. They were just waiting for the right time to use you.
In Nak? I dunno. Maybe I've been betrayed by my friends as often in Nak, but somehow, I don't think so. I think I had real friendships in Nak. It's a cultural difference. It's like friendships that form in the hood, versus what wasps do all day, cattily plot each others' ruin.
Betray them first.
Profit.
Quote from: Knight of Knives on February 09, 2014, 02:15:39 PM
Quote from: Harmless on February 09, 2014, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on February 09, 2014, 07:54:51 AM
Now granted, those same friends could turn around a month later and hand you over to the templars, or set their pet gith on you, or run you through with their sword. But that's how the game is supposed to work, so if that's what is happening, then everything is groovy in Zalanthas.
This is exactly what I was getting at. The only times I wasn't eventually betrayed by my so-called Tuluki friends was when I had stored or gotten killed before it could happen. As soon as someone betrays you like that, they cease being your friend, retroactively. They were just waiting for the right time to use you.
In Nak? I dunno. Maybe I've been betrayed by my friends as often in Nak, but somehow, I don't think so. I think I had real friendships in Nak. It's a cultural difference. It's like friendships that form in the hood, versus what wasps do all day, cattily plot each others' ruin.
Betray them first.
Profit.
That's kind of the point of the game, so yeah :)
Quote from: Harmless on February 09, 2014, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on February 09, 2014, 07:54:51 AM
Now granted, those same friends could turn around a month later and hand you over to the templars, or set their pet gith on you, or run you through with their sword. But that's how the game is supposed to work, so if that's what is happening, then everything is groovy in Zalanthas.
This is exactly what I was getting at. The only times I wasn't eventually betrayed by my so-called Tuluki friends was when I had stored or gotten killed before it could happen. As soon as someone betrays you like that, they cease being your friend, retroactively. They were just waiting for the right time to use you.
In Nak? I dunno. Maybe I've been betrayed by my friends as often in Nak, but somehow, I don't think so. I think I had real friendships in Nak. It's a cultural difference. It's like friendships that form in the hood, versus what wasps do all day, cattily plot each others' ruin.
I find your perspective interesting, since usually Tuluk detractors will say that the city is too soft, too friendly. (In other words, the argument that it's impossible to find conflict.) Seeing someone say the exact opposite (that it's impossible to
avoid conflict, especially with characters your PC trusts) as a reason for their dislike is a bit of a surprise.
I love Tuluk and I love Allanak. I tease both cities equally - it's just that Tuluk's *easier* to tease, in a tongue-and-cheek way. We're all in on the joke, which makes it funny. It doesn't diminish the environment; we've all played several characters there, I'm sure.
Tuluk doesn't need to be Allanak, nor does Allanak need to be Tuluk. They should be as different as can be conceived, to allow us to appreciate a different culture and experience within Zalanthas.
Quote from: Cutthroat on February 09, 2014, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: Harmless on February 09, 2014, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: Lizzie on February 09, 2014, 07:54:51 AM
Now granted, those same friends could turn around a month later and hand you over to the templars, or set their pet gith on you, or run you through with their sword. But that's how the game is supposed to work, so if that's what is happening, then everything is groovy in Zalanthas.
This is exactly what I was getting at. The only times I wasn't eventually betrayed by my so-called Tuluki friends was when I had stored or gotten killed before it could happen. As soon as someone betrays you like that, they cease being your friend, retroactively. They were just waiting for the right time to use you.
In Nak? I dunno. Maybe I've been betrayed by my friends as often in Nak, but somehow, I don't think so. I think I had real friendships in Nak. It's a cultural difference. It's like friendships that form in the hood, versus what wasps do all day, cattily plot each others' ruin.
I find your perspective interesting, since usually Tuluk detractors will say that the city is too soft, too friendly. (In other words, the argument that it's impossible to find conflict.) Seeing someone say the exact opposite (that it's impossible to avoid conflict, especially with characters your PC trusts) as a reason for their dislike is a bit of a surprise.
I think both cities can definitely be "too soft, too friendly."
In Allanak, the too soft, too friendly may be that there are so many easy ways to be integrated into a group of like-minded, like-concept, like-ethnic/racial group people, with some conditions. There is plenty of heelstomping around, and groups are often mean to each other, but within your group, you can expect soft and friendly.
I know this, because I feel more comfortable in Allanak, and I am a very sensitive person. I have a very good radar for friendliness, and I know trust and warmth when I see it.
Tuluk rarely has faked warmth, but it does far more often than Allanak. Moreover, Tuluk has a motivation not to be friendly. It knows its stereotypes, and it knows what it can feel like if things get -too- friendly.
Edited to add: I speak only for the groups I've played in for both cities. So, for instance, I've yet to play a magicker. I bet that there are parts and groups that have plenty of the infighting I speak of.
But in Tuluk, I have trouble avoiding that inner-conflcit no matter where I play on the social ladder. I think this may indicate that the lower tiers of the ladder are underdeveloped.
Btw. Undertuluk, <redacted>, doesn't stay that way forever, etc.
Quote from: Scarecrow on February 05, 2014, 06:32:19 PM
I would like to comment on the gemmed quarter thing. There is perfectly good IC reasons for why things are being done how they are, and it seems kinda rude to complain it isn't getting done soon enough. I'm not trying to be mean or hostile, but Voular you tend to come off seeming really entitled and pointlessly argumentative. I say this only because if you want folks to listen to you, best way is to be more moderate and negotiable.
For that I apologize.
I suck at playing politically in Tuluk, I admit that. So I tend to play muscle and brawn there instead of playing someone actively involved in the social structure, I'm happy to sit right down there at the end of everybody's downward turned noses.
I rock at the political side of Allanak, therefore I do enjoy playing characters who lead and who push things in that culture. I suck at playing, say, a merchant in Allanak because its such a drawl for me within the social "sophisticated side" of Allanak. I always have been rough and tumble, I always will be.
No matter where I go, I know my place. :)
Whores. Same both places.
Problem solved.