Armageddon General Discussion Board

Wisdom's where its at. I love the hell out of high elf wisdom.

Agility is really useful in mudsex situations, which is 90% of my play, so I'll go with that

Strength is where it's at, you can carry more stuffs.

It was tough, but I've chosen strength over endurance. I hate having to game weight, down to emptying my pockets of shit like soap and random doohickeys, in a desperate attempt to be semi armed and armored.

That said I like having 100+ HP and high agility, too.

Agility.

Once had a 60 day ranger fight a 7 day ranger. My average agility was no match for their exceptional agility. I didn't just lose, I got absolutely stomped.

Quote from: Desertman on June 17, 2015, 04:11:54 PM
Agility.

Once had a 60 day ranger fight a 7 day ranger. My average agility was no match for their exceptional agility. I didn't just lose, I got absolutely stomped.

>not using bows

If you don't max strength you are a bitch.
Master parry and any weapon skill over novice will ensure every foe is met with EXTREME DESTRUCTION.
Except beetles.

Endurance.  Anything under 100hp makes me twitchy, and I just can't deal with no stun.

My longest lived character had exceptional in both strength and agility, and it was stupidly OP.  If I cared more about winning fights and not just being lazy, I'd go agility over strength any day.

One of these days, I'm going to roll a PC with decent stats, again.

One of these days...

Charisma.

There's no option for "other"?

penis




(What?!?! No one had said it already! Also, "penis" is a hilarious word.)

Quote from: Talia on June 17, 2015, 06:30:54 PM
penis




(What?!?! No one had said it already! Also, "penis" is a hilarious word.)

Girth and length are separate statistics though.  They are...hard-coded. So even a twink will have a rough time getting it up.

Quote from: Tetra on June 17, 2015, 06:47:25 PM

Quote from: Talia on June 17, 2015, 06:30:54 PM
penis




(What?!?! No one had said it already! Also, "penis" is a hilarious word.)

Girth and length are separate statistics though.  They are...hard-coded. So even a twink will have a rough time getting it up.

(http://media.onsugar.com/files/2011/04/16/3/301/3019466/02a110bf172f3cc6_Picture_218.png)

Strength seems to be the difference between blows bouncing off scrabs at day 2 and killing them. I think anything good and above you'll be just fine, provided it isn't one of them rare super scrabs. The ones that toss out an unspeakable neck shot.

Scrabs are not a good metric for anything.

Just sayin'.

Quote from: Synthesis on June 18, 2015, 01:46:46 AM
Scrabs are not a good metric for anything.

Just sayin'.

Let the young scrab slayer feel confident, and then we can all have a good laugh as he shits his pants when a scrab <redacted> and <redacted> with <redacted>.

Days played

All I know is every time I prioritize wisdom I get really shitty scores in everything else.

Sure, scrabs vary. That much is clear. I'm just saying there's a very noticeable difference in having different tiers in strength. Health is always safe to buy into, because if you're going to live for a while, you're probably going to have at least one close call, and even if you hit like a monster, getting one shot for 100 health is a real possibility in the long term. That's my opinion. But I'm just a noob eh? Scrabs are a good indicator for 2 hour old characters. If you can kill them at 2 hours old, you're probably doing well on your stats. Or they're doing terribly. You might just be a warrior, though.

You shouldn't be fighting scrabs at 2 hours, anyway.  That's just science.

just in terms of which stat is the funnest to have at a very high level, I would say agility. you really feel it when your PC is ultra-quick.

it was a close decision.

Agility won out over wisdom

I love fast and nimble characters and characters with good manual dexterity, I can come up with tons of ways such can be used to add extra little flourishes to RP.

Wisdom is second because generally speaking, most of my character concepts are at least somewhat intellectially sharp, and I feel that wisdom on arm does represent that too, and well, If wisdom isn't at least average, it doesn't feel RIGHT as playing them very smart!

Strength.  Purely because encumbrance is a bitch.

Age. I wish time in Arm passed twice as slowly.

Quote from: MeTekillot on June 19, 2015, 12:07:40 AM
Age. I wish time in Arm passed twice as slowly.

If time passed more slowly, Bynners would be jumping down that hole intentionally by high sun on Ocandra.

I wanted to say wisdom. My longest lived, most skilled warrior was a half-elf with Very Good strength with prioritized wisdom. As nice as the wisdom was, the struggle of wearing decent gear, staying under penalizing encumbrance levels while still being able to actually carry anything around was a huge pain in the ass. On low strength sneaky characters, too, the frustration of trying to avoid encumbrance penalties is really annoying.

So while my heart is with Wisdom, I voted Strength.

Characters with decent wisdom are the ones I stick with longer. Other stats might provide to take on more challenges out the gate, but I play fairly haphazardly and like to experience getting better during that time.

Strength, the benefits are too great for most pc's. Even as a merchant, low strength can drive you up a wall.

It's nearly as bad as low HG agility. Almost.

Agility. In all games, my combat characters are agility. It seems cooler.

Wisdom.

One of my favorite characters was a warrior with exceptional wisdom, below average strength, very good agility and extremely good endurance.
He accomplished a whole bunch of killing with his below average strength. ... a whole bunch. It was pretty impressive, really. Only one person ever learned his weakness and exploited it. xD That's what friends are for, I guess.

But totally wisdom for a whole bunch of reasons.

It's a toss up between wisdom and agi for me. I voted agi b/c I think it's more useful for a variety of skills.

However, I believe wisdom is pretty underrated. In a game where you're far more likely to die than to branch a combat skill, wisdom can be all the difference.

Play enough dwarves and HGs and then play a human and you will be like OMG...WIS!!!!!

Quote from: X-D on June 21, 2015, 07:41:14 AM
Play enough dwarves and HGs and then play a human and you will be like OMG...WIS!!!!!

*daps up X-D
You know what I'm sayin', dawg!?

Elves?! Oh my Gawd... tell this dood about elves, my nig.

If guild warrior: agi str end wis
If any other guild, excluding magickers and merchants: str agi end wis
If merchant: agi wis str end
If magicker: wis agi str end

Just how I do it. HP rolls seem completely random to me so far. Done a lot of rerolls and reroll undos in an attempt to feel it out. Agi helps craft skills, skills like disa and parry. Warriors are naturally strong, so if you prioritize agi and str second, you're likely to get a rather strong score. I used to play Ancient Anguish. Everyone in the game ran around naked most of the time because encumbrance severely affected defense. What I learned from that, was, damage negation is greater than damage absorbtion. Among the best tank were rogues, with their massive boost to parrying from alert combat. There was some debate as to whether orcs or elves were better tanks, orcs getting a good mixture of dex, str, end, but elves got more int and dex, which boosted their rogue abilities and the effects of alert combat. They may be squishy, but good luck hitting them. And, an elven rogue with maxxed two handed swords, elvenheart, and a good secondary weapon was near unstoppable, however, one shouldn't rely on a unique item to make their build work.

I usually played AA solo because everyone else was demanding of fast gains, and, I think I was doing pretty good. Could have done better, but, was just playing to enjoy the game and testing out differing combinations of builds and equipment. Took down some nasty NPCs solo and that was good enough for me.

EDIT: And what chettaman said, holy CHRIST, elves!

I've advocated for an AA-like "spellaim" mechanic for years now, but I don't know how they do it. Also I really wish there were more "secret" areas like the Rogue zone.


As far as the best stat though, you are correct. Negation is better than mitigation in these games, because even if you have high mitigation, you are now taking consistent damage without a consistent source of healing. Its better to take 20 damage once in a while, than a consistent 1-2 damage (and our mitigation isn't NEARLY that good unless you're a half-giant warrior with like boulders for shin guards anyways)

Quote from: Riev on June 22, 2015, 11:08:03 AM
I've advocated for an AA-like "spellaim" mechanic for years now, but I don't know how they do it. Also I really wish there were more "secret" areas like the Rogue zone.


As far as the best stat though, you are correct. Negation is better than mitigation in these games, because even if you have high mitigation, you are now taking consistent damage without a consistent source of healing. Its better to take 20 damage once in a while, than a consistent 1-2 damage (and our mitigation isn't NEARLY that good unless you're a half-giant warrior with like boulders for shin guards anyways)

Yeah, like, on Diablo 2 for example, the teleport skill turned the sorc into a fucking monster, I'd usually get to hell difficulty wearing some crappy, low-grade piece of armor sporting the "stealth" runeword that I'd never change out of, a "rhyme" buckler, shop-cheese a killer two-socket staff, then put "leaf" in it (+3 Firewall +3 Warmth +3 fire mastery ftw) and keep it on switch, Maybe a transferred spirit crystal sword. For fire immunes, frozen orb, for cold immunes, firewall, for fire and cold immunes, static field then lock on and spam TK until minion kills them. Only put 1 point in one point wonders, such as teleport, static field, TK, cold mastery (though later may want to jack that shit up to 10). Act 2 cold merc with insight polearm. Max firewall, max warmth, max fire mastery. Roast or freeze everything.

I still choose con. It makes me live a long time. Then I get minions to have stats I don't. Or get enough minions to swarm your superior agility into submission.

Quote from: KankWhisperer on June 22, 2015, 11:53:38 AM
I still choose con. It makes me live a long time. Then I get minions to have stats I don't. Or get enough minions to swarm your superior agility into submission.

I get minions that keep filthy tainted knives, leap from the shadows and stab you on a quiet midnight stroll, and mostly avoid others with minions unless they piss me off... at which point I'm probably already bribing a minion or two to tell me your whereabouts at all times.

I'm happy with any minion that stays alive and can keep him or herself entertained if I'm not around. Everything else is secondary.

Wisdom.

Then agility.

I don't play many combat types.  Killing you with coin or from range/the shadows/magic is my preferred methods.

I'm not so good with poison.  I always manage to fumble it with the few characters I've had who've used it; mostly to their fatal end.

I tend not to play thieves or combatants, so agility doesn't really feel like a 'thing' to me. I usually prioritize wisdom and leave everything else to chance.

Quote from: Revenant on June 22, 2015, 09:13:18 AM
If guild warrior: agi str end wis
If any other guild, excluding magickers and merchants: str agi end wis

Eh? I dunno about this one. I'm cool with agile warriors, but rangers and assassins get more use out of agi than a warrior does. It probably doesn't seem that way because strength is massively over-powered in the Arm combat system.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on June 23, 2015, 06:17:55 PM

Quote from: Revenant on June 22, 2015, 09:13:18 AM
If guild warrior: agi str end wis
If any other guild, excluding magickers and merchants: str agi end wis

Eh? I dunno about this one. I'm cool with agile warriors, but rangers and assassins get more use out of agi than a warrior does. It probably doesn't seem that way because strength is massively over-powered in the Arm combat system.

Yeah, but encumbrance is a Really Big Deal for some of those skills. Those guilds will generally get shit for strength rolls, if you get real lucky, you might get a damn good roll.

Fair point. Nothing ruins a ranger quite like bad strength.

I'd really like to see strength nerfed a bit. Or at least make agility useful enough that a light-armored fighter becomes feasible. Either that or change armor code so that heavy armor negatively effects your chance to straight up dodge damage - apart from your end result encumbrance.

If Tyrion's (second) trial by combat took place in Armageddon, Oberyn would've had to have at least 10 days played over The Mountain.

Having played more time than I'd care to admit as an elf with a poor strength roll, I have to say, encumbrance levels can be absolutely crippling. Used to be, I ALWAYS prioritized agi, but having realized that "light" gear isn't as light as it needs to be, and knowing that even with a reroll I could still get shafted on my str score, I've come to appreciate being able to Carry More Stuff. Seriously, just the act of wearing clothes on all available slots was too much weight, it was frustrating and annoying. I resolved NEVER to do that again... although, a magicker could get away with it and still be playable. Help files say wish up or send in a request if your low str score impacts playability too much, or if you feel your character's activities would have contributed to more str, but, from experience, I have to say, not gonna happen.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on June 24, 2015, 09:09:52 AM
I'd really like to see strength nerfed a bit.

Hopefully all you mean here is to not hit as hard. Nerfing strength's contribution to encumbrance limits would be very painful.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on June 24, 2015, 09:09:52 AM
Or at least make agility useful enough that a light-armored fighter becomes feasible.

A lightly-armored fighter is already very feasible. There are defenses other than armor.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on June 24, 2015, 09:09:52 AM
Either that or change armor code so that heavy armor negatively effects your chance to straight up dodge damage - apart from your end result encumbrance.

Armor isn't as useful as people generally seem to think, except perhaps at the very high end (available to half-giants and ripped dwarves). It's more important to not be hit to begin with.

It's kind of amazing to me that endurance is coming out as the dump stat, BY FAR.

Everyone loves sinkholes and wants to be buried at their bottom.

Quote from: Synthesis on June 24, 2015, 03:37:04 PM
It's kind of amazing to me that endurance is coming out as the dump stat, BY FAR.

As opposed to what, though? Most of my characters are poor or below average in at least one stat. Below average strength sucks. Below average agility sucks. Below average wisdom sucks, even for warriors (despite what people think). With endurance, at least it's possible to compensate for some of the issues of being below average. E.g. bandaging if wounded. Riding instead of using stamina through walking. Armor to reduce damage. Skills to prevent being hit.

I always thought that it was a bit "unfair" that magickers only really needed wisdom to be majorly kickass and that 99.9% of magicker players will nearly always get very good + in that stat due to nearly always prioritizing it (unless you're one of those weirdos who are into rp'ing and such) while warriors, rangers and assassins pretty much always need decent stats in all of them to be decent.

I think 'gikers should be forced to rely on other stats a lot more like the rest of us poor peons.

Quote from: Eyeball on June 24, 2015, 03:53:51 PM

Quote from: Synthesis on June 24, 2015, 03:37:04 PM
It's kind of amazing to me that endurance is coming out as the dump stat, BY FAR.

As opposed to what, though? Most of my characters are poor or below average in at least one stat. Below average strength sucks. Below average agility sucks. Below average wisdom sucks, even for warriors (despite what people think). With endurance, at least it's possible to compensate for some of the issues of being below average. E.g. bandaging if wounded. Riding instead of using stamina through walking. Armor to reduce damage. Skills to prevent being hit.

I've never noticed wisdom making much of a difference in skillgain for my combat-oriented PCs.  Days-played branch points have all been fairly similar, at least within the "poor dwarf wisdom" to "good elf wisdom" range.  The only time I had difficulty branching a warrior was with a half-giant with poor wisdom...and that was more because it's kind of difficult to generate certain failures when you're dismantling everything in 1-2 hits.

Now you see why everyone keeps dying to that hole. Sub 100 hp's will do that to you.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 24, 2015, 04:37:05 PM
Now you see why everyone keeps dying to that hole. Sub 100 hp's will do that to you.

Not sure I'd want to sacrifice all of the great bonuses offered by awesome strength and agility just for the off-chance that I'll someday be following someone into the pit o' doom.

Quote from: Malken on June 24, 2015, 04:42:08 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 24, 2015, 04:37:05 PM
Now you see why everyone keeps dying to that hole. Sub 100 hp's will do that to you.

Not sure I'd want to sacrifice all of the great bonuses offered by awesome strength and agility just for the off-chance that I'll someday be following someone into the pit o' doom.

I won't disagree with that at all. Str agi end wis, in my opinion, is the best prioritization possible for any character that will see combat.

Quote from: Synthesis on June 24, 2015, 03:37:04 PM
It's kind of amazing to me that endurance is coming out as the dump stat, BY FAR.

Because endurance is weird, and its effects are a bit marginal. Which means people typically only notice endurance if it's either shit or incredible. Everything inbetween, from like average to extremely good, is hard to notice. Maybe a few more hitpoints or stunpoints.

I love having a high endurance. But it's hard to make a case for being anyone's favorite stat. Second favorite? Yeah.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 24, 2015, 04:49:21 PM
I won't disagree with that at all. Str agi end wis, in my opinion, is the best prioritization possible for any character that will see combat.

The one stat I see here that is seriously overrated is agility. I'd prioritize even endurance over it, and I don't even think endurance has that big of an impact. Basically with endurance, you can either survive a three room fall or you can't. You want to be on the 'can survive' end of the spectrum. But it's a very binary stat.

str agi end wis 26 for age is a classic and has yet to let me down.

I tend to not prioritize my stats. I'd rather be mediocre across the board than have to deal with a "poor"in anything ever again.

Quote from: valeria on June 24, 2015, 04:56:07 PM
I tend to not prioritize my stats. I'd rather be mediocre across the board than have to deal with a "poor"in anything ever again.

Hm, that's not how stat distribution works, but we all have our little lucky charms and if not prioritizing stats worked so far for you, that's good! :)

I never shave between characters and ever since I've started doing that I've had pretty great stats so far. Ladies, you should all try it as well.

Quote from: Clearsighted on June 24, 2015, 04:50:08 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 24, 2015, 04:49:21 PM
I won't disagree with that at all. Str agi end wis, in my opinion, is the best prioritization possible for any character that will see combat.

The one stat I see here that is seriously overrated is agility. I'd prioritize even endurance over it, and I don't even think endurance has that big of an impact. Basically with endurance, you can either survive a three room fall or you can't. You want to be on the 'can survive' end of the spectrum. But it's a very binary stat.

Agility effects practically everything. Going from half-giant to elf makes this incredibly apparent.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 24, 2015, 05:01:09 PM

Quote from: Clearsighted on June 24, 2015, 04:50:08 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 24, 2015, 04:49:21 PM
I won't disagree with that at all. Str agi end wis, in my opinion, is the best prioritization possible for any character that will see combat.

The one stat I see here that is seriously overrated is agility. I'd prioritize even endurance over it, and I don't even think endurance has that big of an impact. Basically with endurance, you can either survive a three room fall or you can't. You want to be on the 'can survive' end of the spectrum. But it's a very binary stat.

Agility effects practically everything. Going from half-giant to elf makes this incredibly apparent.

Thing is. I've played elves, and I've played half-giants. Poor half-giant agility is the shit. Being able to only hold one or two things at a time is a valid reason to suicide a character. However...Most any other race can get by with 'average' agility just fine and never have it affect them much.

Not when it matters, anyways. High agility might make you a great sparring partner, but it won't save you in a real fight. Not unless it's a fight you could never lose to begin with (like a 20-day char vs a 1 day, and even then....if it's ranger vs warrior, there might be a surprise!).

Obviously, I never want to be staring down the barrel of 'poor' agility. Or even below average. But it's far from the #1 stat.

Things high agility has done for my characters:

Saved from falling-death multiple times, without climb.
Made me dodge mekillot attacks on a new character long enough to flee.
Dodged again on flee attempt.
Made me attack three to four times for every one strike by another.
Made apprentice-level steal work with strangely high rate of success.

I'd take high agility over high endurance any day, because middling-low endurance still gets you over 100 hp.

Quote from: Malken on June 24, 2015, 04:59:40 PM

Quote from: valeria on June 24, 2015, 04:56:07 PM
I tend to not prioritize my stats. I'd rather be mediocre across the board than have to deal with a "poor"in anything ever again.

Hm, that's not how stat distribution works, but we all have our little lucky charms and if not prioritizing stats worked so far for you, that's good! :)

I never shave between characters and ever since I've started doing that I've had pretty great stats so far. Ladies, you should all try it as well.

I'm not sure you get what I'm saying.  I'm talking about risks and possibilities, not about 'oh this happens every time.'

Between "reroll/reroll undo" and not taking whatever negative hit it is that your lowest priority stat takes, I haven't had to live with a "poor" since I stopped prioritizing.  Where I previously had two characters with "poor" something on both the initial roll and reroll, I've since had zero double-poor characters.  I also don't get that bump to the top priority stat... hence the higher chance that I'll be mediocre across the board.  Which I have been more frequently, though not always.

I had a c-elf warrior with poor end once, he wasn't someone you wanted to box. On rough circle days, it typically ended up every bynner on the other end of his fists screaming for help as he mercilessly pounded them and his inability to be hit allowed him to slowly regen his stun one tick at a time. I doubt anyone ever knew he was stuck at 90 hp, or that he had poor endurance, he simply faked it so hard because he was untouchable with his extremely good strength and exceptional agility. He was still a Runner, and even with the Byn being as powerful as it was in that day, was giving Troopers and occassionally Sergeants the beatdown in the ring. He even rescued a Trooper from a Mek once.

Thing is, no one would have ever, ever known just how fragile he was, because he was SO goddamn quick, and unencumbered. Pair this with master two-handed fighting style, ugh, watch out. People talk shit about city elves, this guy would grevious PCs and NPCs with a gith bastard sword, he was always covered in blood because things would explode half the time when he killed them. He also kept a light shield for when shit got real. He was, hands down, one of the scariest non-stealth PCs I've EVER played. He was also the best sparring dummy in the known.

Quote from: valeria on June 24, 2015, 07:16:02 PM

Quote from: Malken on June 24, 2015, 04:59:40 PM

Quote from: valeria on June 24, 2015, 04:56:07 PM
I tend to not prioritize my stats. I'd rather be mediocre across the board than have to deal with a "poor"in anything ever again.

Hm, that's not how stat distribution works, but we all have our little lucky charms and if not prioritizing stats worked so far for you, that's good! :)

I never shave between characters and ever since I've started doing that I've had pretty great stats so far. Ladies, you should all try it as well.

I'm not sure you get what I'm saying.  I'm talking about risks and possibilities, not about 'oh this happens every time.'

Between "reroll/reroll undo" and not taking whatever negative hit it is that your lowest priority stat takes, I haven't had to live with a "poor" since I stopped prioritizing.  Where I previously had two characters with "poor" something on both the initial roll and reroll, I've since had zero double-poor characters.  I also don't get that bump to the top priority stat... hence the higher chance that I'll be mediocre across the board.  Which I have been more frequently, though not always.

What I think Malken is getting at, is priority just changes what would have been higher or lower. So if you roll without priority and get all good's you would have gotten all good with priority as well. If one skill was very good, then that would be allocated to the one that your prioritized. And I'm about 95% sure he's right.

Quote from: Revenant on June 24, 2015, 07:25:32 PM
I had a c-elf warrior with poor end once, he wasn't someone you wanted to box. On rough circle days, it typically ended up every bynner on the other end of his fists screaming for help as he mercilessly pounded them and his inability to be hit allowed him to slowly regen his stun one tick at a time. I doubt anyone ever knew he was stuck at 90 hp, or that he had poor endurance, he simply faked it so hard because he was untouchable with his extremely good strength and exceptional agility. He was still a Runner, and even with the Byn being as powerful as it was in that day, was giving Troopers and occassionally Sergeants the beatdown in the ring. He even rescued a Trooper from a Mek once.

Thing is, no one would have ever, ever known just how fragile he was, because he was SO goddamn quick, and unencumbered. Pair this with master two-handed fighting style, ugh, watch out. People talk shit about city elves, this guy would grevious PCs and NPCs with a gith bastard sword, he was always covered in blood because things would explode half the time when he killed them. He also kept a light shield for when shit got real. He was, hands down, one of the scariest non-stealth PCs I've EVER played. He was also the best sparring dummy in the known.

Without getting into the mechanics too much, I honestly think a lot of what you experienced had more to do with two-handing, than high agility.

A dwarf with exceptional endurance+ and good armor stands a very good chance of not even feeling most elf/half-elf blows from dual-wielded training weapons.

Still. You're not far off. I'd go str-agility on an elf, and str-end as a dwarf. But funnily enough, I almost never prioritize my stats.

I kind of wish I could change my answer to Agility.

It really is such an amazing stat...

I'm remarkably dumb when it comes to code, but I love agility. Reminds me of old days when I played rogues in Daggerfall and PnP.

Quote from: Clearsighted on June 24, 2015, 07:39:46 PM

Quote from: Revenant on June 24, 2015, 07:25:32 PM
I had a c-elf warrior with poor end once, he wasn't someone you wanted to box. On rough circle days, it typically ended up every bynner on the other end of his fists screaming for help as he mercilessly pounded them and his inability to be hit allowed him to slowly regen his stun one tick at a time. I doubt anyone ever knew he was stuck at 90 hp, or that he had poor endurance, he simply faked it so hard because he was untouchable with his extremely good strength and exceptional agility. He was still a Runner, and even with the Byn being as powerful as it was in that day, was giving Troopers and occassionally Sergeants the beatdown in the ring. He even rescued a Trooper from a Mek once.

Thing is, no one would have ever, ever known just how fragile he was, because he was SO goddamn quick, and unencumbered. Pair this with master two-handed fighting style, ugh, watch out. People talk shit about city elves, this guy would grevious PCs and NPCs with a gith bastard sword, he was always covered in blood because things would explode half the time when he killed them. He also kept a light shield for when shit got real. He was, hands down, one of the scariest non-stealth PCs I've EVER played. He was also the best sparring dummy in the known.

Without getting into the mechanics too much, I honestly think a lot of what you experienced had more to do with two-handing, than high agility.

A dwarf with exceptional endurance+ and good armor stands a very good chance of not even feeling most elf/half-elf blows from dual-wielded training weapons.

Still. You're not far off. I'd go str-agility on an elf, and str-end as a dwarf. But funnily enough, I almost never prioritize my stats.

I happen to think it was a combination of agility and two handed that would otherwise be impossible to replicate. I started focusing on two handing weapons after my second character got tossed into the arena with a two handed axe, and almost beat the corporal that was sent out to fight him, I said to myself "Never again will I neglect two handed". Since then, I've learned that dual wield and shield use are not necessarily the standard by which to judge combat ability. Shield use seems to be more effective against two handed.

Your mom is more effective against two handed.

Having finally getting different stats all around and actually playing elves, dwarves, witches, and comparing them to humans... I've noticed how the matrix code might work. I'm not going to say that wisdom is the best stat. I'm just saying it's my favorite.

wisdom - agility - strength - endurance

Quote from: Chettaman on June 25, 2015, 08:09:19 AM
Your mom is more effective against two handed.

Please, the only reason my mom wins a slapfight while I'm two handing a maul is because she's my mom and I'd never swing the damn thing at her. It doesn't count. :P

Wisdom, wisdom, wisdom.

Wisdom is my dump stat. I'm in no hurry. I like endrurance on my noncombatants.

Stats honestly shouldn't be as extreme as they are in game. Ever played an elf with poor strength or endurance? It's not fun.

Quote from: Jingo on June 30, 2015, 08:29:04 PM
Stats honestly shouldn't be as extreme as they are in game. Ever played an elf with poor strength or endurance? It's not fun.

Most of the time stats aren't too extreme...unless you're an elf or a half-giant. And then either poor strength or poor agility/wisdom can be a Sisyphean ordeal at best.

But there's really not a lot of difference for say, humans, between good and extremely good, etc, except in encumbrance.

Human with poor strength makes me cry blood. Dwarf ranger with poor agility makes me want to be buried alive.

Other than that don't really mind but if my stats are heaps different from mdesc I am ocd about it and change from muscular to lean etc.

Quote from: Clearsighted on June 30, 2015, 08:32:39 PM

Quote from: Jingo on June 30, 2015, 08:29:04 PM
Stats honestly shouldn't be as extreme as they are in game. Ever played an elf with poor strength or endurance? It's not fun.

Most of the time stats aren't too extreme...unless you're an elf or a half-giant. And then either poor strength or poor agility/wisdom can be a Sisyphean ordeal at best.

But there's really not a lot of difference for say, humans, between good and extremely good, etc, except in encumbrance.

I really disagree when it comes to strength. The difference between above average strength and Excellent strength, is MASSIVE.


poor
below average    -Wimp, good luck with a full set of leather and two water-skins in your pack
average


above average
good                -Average, you can wear a full set of armor and maybe some heavier pieces in vital spots.
very good


extremely good
excellent                      -You hit like Thor, and don't need armor because you kill everything before it hits you.
Absolutely incredible

I have had above VG str once in like 50 or so pcs. And that was exceptional on a burglar.

I've had exceptional, exceptional, extremely good and average on a merchant before.

Human stats

Strength:
Poor - you appear to be some sort of animate bundle of yarn?
Below average - You don't like the look of that full set of leather gear. You try to dress light and it's AWFULLY heavy.
Average - Alright, full set of leathers! Make sure you're e-twoing a sensibly sized weapon, though.
Above average - Full leathers, AND a bastard sword. No backpack though. Or waterskins.
Good - Good news! Waterskins!
Very good - And your pack, too!
Extremely good - Now you can wear heavy armor with all of that!
Exceptional - You appear to be some sort of demi-god?
Absolutely incredible - You appear to be some sort of god?

Endurance:
Poor to Above average - No appreciable difference, but not great.
Above average to very good - Passable.
Extremely good to absolutely incredible - You don't sweat as much when the group passes by a sinkhole.

Agility:
All my characters with below average agility have been wombo-combo'd not too far in, or they weren't combat-heavy characters.

Wisdom (for combat characters, mages notwithstanding):
Poor - You are, quite literally, retarded. You'll get journeyman slashing weapons at thirty days if you play sensibly and without inside code knowledge.
Below average to Above Average - Eh.
Above average to very good - Had one character with wisdom in this range and he was okay?
Exceptional - Branch at one and a half days played.
Absolutely incredible - ?

If you get a half-elf warrior with less than average endurance and your wisdom isn't just ridiculous. Store. It's not worth it. Don't do it. You don't deserve that. You're a good person.

I actually think elves get higher hp and stun than half-elves and idk why??

Guess on some level it is really dependent on your combat class, if you're using the stats for such. For a warrior, strength is the monster. Also, I've noticed, out of the box, I could hit things (as in accuracy) I just never dreamed of being able to on a day played character. I had one of those demi-god characters. I'll miss you dude.

On a serious note, the difference between EG strength and VG human strength, is never bouncing off of a scrab's shell with your blows.

Endurance leans toward my second favorite stat, because I just dream of the day I can see a whopping 130 health on a human. I don't know if it's possible, but if it is, I'm guessing that chara leans toward long lived character. You'll just manage to get by, -barely- by a few OHKOs that would have gotten you otherwise over the course of a long life.

From my limited, frog's-eye experience, it seems that agility affects your chance-to-hit much more than strength (if strength even affects it at all).  I think you might be suffering from MEGA HIT bias, which makes people -think- they're more awesome than they really are, simply because they're landing MEGA HITs even on shit target locations, due to their strength bonus and/or having good weapons.  And I mean, yeah, it is pretty cool landing MEGA HITs on shit target locations.  Buuut, you're not really "good" until you're chaining head-and-neck shots.

I could be totally wrong, of course.

I can't pick... it's probably fun or at least novel to have godly values in every stat, in its own unique way, whether it's reeling your opponents, helping yourself to their inventory, 130 hp, or rapid-fire branching.  Just like the individual classes are fun in their own ways.

Strength and agility are probably the most "fun", but if you gave me a character with poor everything I'd be up for the challenge (carpe diem!)

Quote from: Synthesis on July 03, 2015, 09:40:16 AM
From my limited, frog's-eye experience, it seems that agility affects your chance-to-hit much more than strength (if strength even affects it at all).

From my own frog-eye perspective, I think agility helps determine where you hit more than if you hit. Strength definitely helps you hit people and hit them hard, but my agi fighters got a lot more head, neck and wrist shots in.

I had a city elf warrior with 2 AI's once (str and agi). My first fight ever of the game was to get jumped by all 4 muggers on Hathors. I don't think they even knicked me and I killed all 4 with like a pair of throwing daggers. Probably about my 3rd fight was getting jumped by a drov beetle down by Red Storm, and taking it on an all expenses paid vacation to reel-lock city. When a 3 hour played city elf can 3 shot a drov beetle... well, it's a pretty powerful stat.

And that pales in comparison to the deeds of some characters I've heard about. I had a friend who rolled up a dwarf warrior with 3 AIs once years ago. You wouldn't believe some of the things he (claims) to have done with that PC. Apparently he once told a Templar to fuck off in the middle of Allanak... and the Templar asked him to leave the city rather than risk loosing his 5 half-giant NPCs...

High stats can be insane kids.

Strength affects Offense. A good way to test this for yourself is by two-handing a weapon.

Agility affects attack speed. A good way to test this for yourself is by playing a half-giant.

Agility might affect crit range in general. I don't know. I prefer not to speculate on what can't be independently verified. I think it's highly plausible. High agility characters typically have high wisdom (compared to other races), and so learn quickly.

In my experience, the main determinant of hit location is Offense and weapon skill, vs Defense. A good way to test this for yourself is by wailing on a dummy. By contrast, having low agility, has never seemed to hamper my characters from getting plenty of crits in combat, once they were skilled up.

That's probably about as far as we can discuss it on the GDB.

I do know that when you only have 4 stats some end up having to overlap in where they are effective. Strength and agility both obviously effect combat a great deal, so prioritize them for the best combat characters. Endurance is a catchall for HP, stun, poison, and regeneration, and resisting magickal effects, if you're a newer player and unaware of exactly how much things can fuck you up, this is probably the stat for you.  Wisdom is helpful for all skillgains, and mana. So if you don't care about how quickly your skills go up (or play in a manner where wisdom wouldn't effect you otherwise, like super high playtimes) you should prioritize strength and agility.

There are exceptions, of course. Half-giants should probably avoid Strength priority. And non-melee-combat classes like burglars, pickpockets, most magickers, should probably avoid strength and endurance. Agility and Wisdom all the way for them.

My final thought is that there is too much variance in stats For how much they effect everything they should not sway so violently.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on July 03, 2015, 05:32:50 PM
My final thought is that there is too much variance in stats For how much they effect everything they should not sway so violently.

I wish every few years, we got to pick one stat to raise. We'd log in for a birthday, and it's ask us for a stat to raise, and then *bam*.

Since stats are always going lower as you age anyways, it won't be a big deal. Plenty of older people maintain their physical fitness as they age, by working harder.

I really enjoyed my half-elf with exceptional endurance. I felt it helped a lot somehow with my grebbing.

I think stats should:

Follow a reasonable bell-curve. To make it far more likely for middle of the road stats to appear.

OR

Have a significantly reduced range of probabilities . I.E. Highest stat is Extremely good. Worst stat is average.

Quote from: Jingo on July 04, 2015, 04:48:10 PM
Have a significantly reduced range of probabilities . I.E. Highest stat is Extremely good. Worst stat is average.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgx4k83zzc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xgx4k83zzc)

The less variance there is, the more samey same characters feel. Skills can (and eventually do) make up for bad stats and thanks to reroll, reroll undo and prioritising, you can pretty much get decent stats in any character.

What I'd like to see is the characters have the same number of total points spent on their character. When i do a reroll and every single stat is better than the original roll, it really makes you wonder. I'd prefer it if every player of age bracket X has Y total points to spend. However those points are spent is up to the system (keeping in mind class and player prioritisation). But when you reroll you should get different stats, not across the board better (or worse) stats.

Maybe a random set rolls which can severely impact or even debilitate a character's options -isn't- the best way to get character customization? I guess a points system could be the answer but then players are gonna metagame that like every other aspect of character creation.

And no. Skills don't matter if you can't wear any armor or if you have less than 75 hp.

It's a game. Imaginary reality aside, it's a game. Yes, we'll meta-game, and so what? It's a game, and we enjoy doing so.

QuoteAnd no. Skills don't matter if you can't wear any armor or if you have less than 75 hp.

The former is false.  The latter is extremely unlikely, and even then, still false.  Yes, I have had a character that killed many with 79 max hp.  Skills conquer all.

Quote from: Jingo on July 05, 2015, 02:51:55 AMMaybe a random set rolls which can severely impact or even debilitate a character's options -isn't- the best way to get character customization? I guess a points system could be the answer but then players are gonna metagame that like every other aspect of character creation.

Skill points are the worst. It homogenises characters even more than being able to prioritise stats.

Quote from: Jingo on July 05, 2015, 02:51:55 AMSkills don't matter if you can't wear any armor

Don't dump strength and you can wear armor.

Quote from: Armaddict on July 05, 2015, 04:58:40 AM

QuoteAnd no. Skills don't matter if you can't wear any armor or if you have less than 75 hp.

The former is false.  The latter is extremely unlikely, and even then, still false.  Yes, I have had a character that killed many with 79 max hp.  Skills conquer all.

At least until you come across someone with equitable skill and like, 115 HP or some shit. Bastard.

Quote from: Clearsighted on July 05, 2015, 09:45:24 AMAt least until you come across someone with equitable skill and like, 115 HP or some shit. Bastard.

Assuming someone who dumped wisdom (let's assume you prioritised it) and yet has still attained the same skill level as you, sure. They'll be better off assuming that strength and agility are also the same. However combat tends to be fairly well spread out across all of the stats (better than any other system I've seen) so unless you're assuming someone whose literally equal or better than you in every way, having bad stamina won't necessarily make you a worse fighter than someone with higher stamina.

Number one way to reach badass status: play a bunch of days.

Quote from: John on July 05, 2015, 09:58:21 AM

Quote from: Clearsighted on July 05, 2015, 09:45:24 AMAt least until you come across someone with equitable skill and like, 115 HP or some shit. Bastard.

Assuming someone who dumped wisdom (let's assume you prioritised it) and yet has still attained the same skill level as you, sure. They'll be better off assuming that strength and agility are also the same. However combat tends to be fairly well spread out across all of the stats (better than any other system I've seen) so unless you're assuming someone whose literally equal or better than you in every way, having bad stamina won't necessarily make you a worse fighter than someone with higher stamina.

All things being roughly equal, having a 20-30 HP buffer over the other guy, is a big deal.

That said, this is just for sparring and swinging one's dick around. Real PvP - real PK - is, rarely so glorious as a straight up fight with bone swords chopping away. It used to be more common. But not anymore.

These days, it's gonna be poison, arrows, gickery, or some kind of gangbang. Unless you get lucky.

That's the thing about Armageddon. In most circumstances, having a friend, trumps whatever gear or stats the other guy has. Unless it's like, X-D or something. Then you and your friend should run away.

Quote from: Clearsighted on July 05, 2015, 02:11:01 PM
That said, this is just for sparring and swinging one's dick around. Real PvP - real PK - is, rarely so glorious as a straight up fight with bone swords chopping away. It used to be more common. But not anymore.

Real talk. Most players I've seen the last few years seem to think this is Game of Thrones or something where threats have to be made and answered through political intrigue. Newp. This is Arm. I'm going to wait until you leave the gates, and then run you over with my inix. Bring your friends if you'd like.

Quote from: LauraMars on July 03, 2015, 07:24:08 PM
FAVORITE STAT IS WISGILITY

Or Charsima. Tough decision.

Charisma. The only stat that RNG ain't got shit on.

I still think agility is more important for combat, but I'm gonna have to change my answer to strength, just for the inventory vs. encumbrance issue.

Typically, I prefer being able to soak hits to dodging them, in most any game I play. I feel safer knowing a lucky backstab or crit won't one-shot everything I've invested. May not be optimal, but its my preference. That said, I have atrocious luck with stat rolls. I think the math would say strength is the best stat, but I always feel wary playing with low endurance. Its the one I never prioritize first, but its near always a firm second.