Is there a reason to use slings instead of bows besides cost
There is quite a number of reasons. RP for example. There is the coded different kind of damage as well which could be viewed as slightly less than lethal. (A flying rock to the head is still very lethal, be real).
Quote from: Hauwke on November 24, 2017, 10:39:29 PMThere is quite a number of reasons.
Well, that's the reason for creating this thread. To find out what they are.
Quote from: Hauwke on November 24, 2017, 10:39:29 PMRP for example.
Can you provide some examples of what RP is enabled by using a sling instead of a bow? Other than getting to RP being too poor to afford a bow?
Quote from: Hauwke on November 24, 2017, 10:39:29 PMThere is the coded different kind of damage
Is there a way to get more information on this? Are you talking about them being better against certain types of armor?
Quote from: Hauwke on November 24, 2017, 10:39:29 PM(A flying rock to the head is still very lethal, be real).
So is an arrow to the neck.
Quote from: Hauwke on November 24, 2017, 10:39:29 PMas well which could be viewed as slightly less than lethal.
So the only difference you can actually speak about is the advantage of appearing weaker than someone else? I guess I could always throw chipped daggers at people if that was something I was interested in playing.
RP wise, if you've ever seen a video of a trained sling-user going nuts with one on a wooden post, it's enough to make your skin crawl imagining getting popped somewhere vital with a stone going that speed... can see how David took down Goliath after observing something like that. It's not codedly optimal, although it is a thematic hunting tool given the technology level.
EDIT: Also I tend to prefer clubs because they're less than lethal in a number of scenarios. Realistically, however, getting bludgeoned over the head is nasty business and can be quite fatal, sometimes, OHKs result IG from using too big a club on too soft a target. That they CAN be used non-lethally doesn't mean clubs are of lesser lethal potential than other weapons, it simply means you get more opportunities to decide how you really want a conflict to play out. Stabbing weapons, with some, ahem, tactical considerations can also potentially be used in such a way. Swords and axes are far less versatile, though potentially more potent depending on scenario.
If all you want to do is murder things, well, not my playstyle, but also not my place to judge. I'm not sure the game is about optimal gear allocation, but to some it's very important, so I don't want to belittle that, but I would like to encourage other players to think outside the optimal box.
I can also RP hunting with bow and arrow.
Once upon a time you use to use slings because it would help with aim and targeting small creatures from a distance. If the answer to not using bows is there isn't one besides cost, that's fine. But these bullshit answers of "because it makes you a better RPer" are just stupid.
Quote from: SomeElf on November 24, 2017, 11:20:41 PM
I can also RP hunting with bow and arrow.
Once upon a time you use to use slings because it would help with aim and targeting small creatures from a distance. If the answer to not using bows is there isn't one besides cost, that's fine. But these bullshit answers of "because it makes you a better RPer" are just stupid.
I wouldn't say "stupid", but I would say adding some flavour to your character's choice of arms can be a rewarding experience despite the hit to killing potential.
Slings are probably a better option if you want to knock your target out without killing it outright (stun dmg vs health dmg)
Quote from: Malken on November 24, 2017, 11:27:02 PM
Slings are probably a better option if you want to knock your target out without killing it outright (stun dmg vs health dmg)
Thankyou.
To elaborate on my points.
Rp:
You can rp being a hidey little asshole chucking rocks, if thats not your deal whatever. You can also play the poor hunter, but you dont even need to play the poor hunter with one, I would assume that many of humanities very best hunters used a sling and a trusty rock to fell small-medium game on their lonesome. Hell, it was used as a warfare weapon too.
Codedly:
They do just about the same amount of damage as a bow, if not more. I have felled a number of things with just two rocks connecting with body shots, granted, my experience with it is coming from one with a very high strength. And, it does bludgeoning damage as apposed to piercing. In terms of HP damage, I can only speculate that it is exactly the same, but, bludgeoning does do stun and thus, a rock to the head of a guy might knock him out instead of kill him, or at the very least open up the oppurtunity to knock him out easier another one.
As a final note, they can shoot just as far as a bow, ammo is cheaper, and they seemingly do the exact same levels of damage. Take that as you will.
QuoteBut these bullshit answers of "because it makes you a better RPer" are just stupid.
Just a note.
This is a roleplaying mud. Those answers weren't stupid. They were 100% correct, and they never said because 'it makes you a better RPer'. They said that they offered different roleplay options. If you're going to have an attitude about that idea, particularly when they actually -stress- that it's a roleplay-oriented reason rather than a coded one, you're going to have a great time on the GDB.
As you already mentioned, the main reason people have used slings, historically, is as a way to avoid the costs of bows and arrows. Bows are, relatively speaking, very pricy and expensive to continue firing, whereas slings require little more than a small investment and some time out looking for ammunition. With some changes to archery in recent times, slings were made as or nearly-as effective as bows, but with upcoming class changes I would expect to see different reasons for not using bows.
Slings don't seem to lack much stopping power compared to bows. What they may lack is range, although I haven't extensively tested that. Given the technology we're working with in zalanthas, slings should be able to compete with all but the best bows for range.
A definite disadvantage slings have is the inability to deliver poison.
A real advantage a sling has over a bow is weight. A bow, quiver, and arrows can add up to a fair amount of weight. A sling and a few stones is much lighter, making it an attractive option to someone who isn't as strong or who may already be burdened with armor. A sling can thus be a more effective sidearm than a bow and arrow kit.
Another (RP only) reason would be not having holes in the pelt you're trying to get.
Quote from: Nao on November 25, 2017, 04:48:16 PM
Another (RP only) reason would be not having holes in the pelt you're trying to get.
Which is why you go dwarf and approach your prey with bags filled with rocks, bare-handed.
Half-giant one-punch the critter in the face, -totally- fine.
Quote from: Hauwke on November 25, 2017, 05:33:35 PM
Half-giant one-punch the critter in the face, -totally- fine.
Always figured anything living would pop like a balloon filled with blood.
Quote from: Grapes on November 25, 2017, 05:58:55 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on November 25, 2017, 05:33:35 PM
Half-giant one-punch the critter in the face, -totally- fine.
Always figured anything living would pop like a balloon filled with blood.
Given the size, I would assume its closer to an adult head-punching a child.
Quote from: Hauwke on November 25, 2017, 06:24:21 PM
Quote from: Grapes on November 25, 2017, 05:58:55 PM
Quote from: Hauwke on November 25, 2017, 05:33:35 PM
Half-giant one-punch the critter in the face, -totally- fine.
Always figured anything living would pop like a balloon filled with blood.
Given the size, I would assume its closer to an adult head-punching a child.
Umm, must object there, number one, adults do not possess HG strength in comprison to their offspring...
EDIT: I mean fuck dude, it's not like popping a grape. In fact, the skeletal tissue of children is more flexible and resistant to damage, I don't want to describe how I know this other than to say it was, um, personal experience. There is no real world comparison for Zalanthan Half-Giants.
sure there is.
imagine a moose, only like... 500 pounds bigger.
now imagine it punching you in the face.
Are slings more deadly if you have higher strength? Are bows more deadly if you have high agility?
I have a funny feeling stats play into the both of them quite heavily.
Don't worry so much about the code. That seems to be a trend lately and it isn't really what Armageddon is about. When you're too focused on things like that you miss what the game really has to offer and you are robbing yourself of a rather unique experience.
There are several other active posts right now where people are bringing their real life feelings into a game, seemingly unable to draw a line between the two. Put yourself in-character, not just a projection of yourself. This is a mean world. You are not entitled to anything. Being nice is not the norm. Nobody cares about your feelings. Anyway, this is getting off topic. I apologize. Back on..
Don't be so concerned with what stats affect what skills or what your coded advantages are. Select the option that makes sense for your character regardless of advantage or disadvantage. You may know that using X is codedly better than Y but does your character? You may know that doing Z will likely lead to something bad happening with your character but do they? Consider your character's motivations, personality, history. Not your own. Think about who they are. Don't approach it looking at the situation from a skills and stat advantage viewpoint otherwise you will miss the experience that is unique to Armageddon. Sometimes your character is at a disadvantage and you know it, but they might not. Remember you and your character don't always know the same things. You're not playing you, you're playing a role. Skills play a part, sure, but RP comes first.
Have fun and enjoy what Armageddon is.
(edited: cleaned this up some, I was using voice-to-text previously)
You can be a RP king while also worrying about code.
Slings are definitely more deadly with higher strength (everything is deadly with higher strength) and high agility will help you hit critical spots (like neck and head) more often.
Quote from: redkank on November 25, 2017, 11:09:33 PM
Are slings more deadly if you have higher strength? Are bows more deadly if you have high agility?
Quote
The agility score is used to determine speed of reaction in combat, missile fire bonuses, ability to dodge objects, escape capture, avoid dangerous spell effects, leap across distances, climb walls, and picking pockets of unsuspecting bystanders.
From: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Agility
Quote
Agility affects the actual chance to succeed. The chance to hit drops as the distance to the target increases. Crossbows and slings must be loaded before they can be used. All bows, crossbows, and slings have a 'maximum range' and are designed for a particular strength (i.e., the strength required to pull the string back). Those persons shot at will usually become very angry.
From: http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Archery
It isn't clear if 'missile fire' includes both sling use and archery, but my hunch is that it does. It is also important to bear in mind that
those persons shot at will usually become very angry. ;D
If you're playing a skill/stats sheet and not a character, I'm not particularly interested in roleplaying with you.
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on November 26, 2017, 09:08:45 AM
Don't worry so much about the code. That seems to be a trend lately and it isn't really what Armageddon is about. When you're too focused on things like that you miss what the game really has to offer and you are robbing yourself of a rather unique experience.
There are several other active posts right now where people are bringing their real life feelings into a game, seemingly unable to draw a line between the two. Put yourself in-character, not just a projection of yourself. This is a mean world. You are not entitled to anything. Being nice is not the norm. Nobody cares about your feelings. Anyway, this is getting off topic. I apologize. Back on..
Don't be so concerned with what stats affect what skills or what your coded advantages are. Select the option that makes sense for your character regardless of advantage or disadvantage. You may know that using X is codedly better than Y but does your character? You may know that doing Z will likely lead to something bad happening with your character but do they? Consider your character's motivations, personality, history. Not your own. Think about who they are. Don't approach it looking at the situation from a skills and stat advantage viewpoint otherwise you will miss the experience that is unique to Armageddon. Sometimes your character is at a disadvantage and you know it, but they might not. Remember you and your character don't always know the same things. You're not playing you, you're playing a role. Skills play a part, sure, but RP comes first.
Have fun and enjoy what Armageddon is.
(edited: cleaned this up some, I was using voice-to-text previously)
It's a MUD, not a MUSH. When people have code questions, the typical response (when applicable) is related to code, not to RP. Sometimes RP is applicable, sometimes it isn't. Most of the time, we are all on our A game trying to RP with the best of the Veterans and RP Kings and Queens. But code is there, it is mysterious at times, and people will ask questions.
Quote from: Veselka on November 26, 2017, 07:27:07 PM
It's a MUD, not a MUSH. When people have code questions, the typical response (when applicable) is related to code, not to RP. Sometimes RP is applicable, sometimes it isn't. Most of the time, we are all on our A game trying to RP with the best of the Veterans and RP Kings and Queens. But code is there, it is mysterious at times, and people will ask questions.
Which is fine. Everyone has their own play styles. Some prefer having a coded advantage, some prefer to use code to flavor their RP. So if this is how you like to play, then go ahead. I don't think anyone is blaming anyone for anything, so take it easy. :)
"Armageddon is, first and foremost, a role-playing game. Roleplaying is central to the game environment and is not considered an option by the creators of the world. It is a requirement. If you do not want to roleplay, this is not the game for you. The game has a combat system, magick spells, and thousands of other features for added realism, but you must keep in mind that the only reason everyone is here is to have fun while acting out a role. The most important thing is playing your character according to their own personality in order to help in the creation of a realistic fantasy world."
Quote from: SomeElf on November 24, 2017, 10:11:58 PM
Is there a reason to use slings instead of bows besides cost
Because you have slings on your skill list and not archery. And maybe other stuff.
Because bows are hard.
Just for the record: I'm not looking to twink up or ignore all in character motivations. I will take those into account. However I also wanted to know what coded reasons there were (If any) to use a sling. If I'm playing a character where cost of arrows isn't an issue (e.g. because I have the Fletchery skill) then it's fair for me to wonder which weapon is better and given I have the more "advanced" skill whether I should bother with the "lesser" skill.
Tabletop gamers (which do have a cross section with MUDders) often get into the trap that using suboptimal weapons makes them better roleplayers. It can. But it doesn't have to. Saying "for the RP" isn't helpful unless it's truly self evident what the RP reasons are (such as someone asking why they would drink kalan fruit juice compared to belshun fruit juice or why wear red when you can wear white). I couldn't see what RP reason someone would have for using slings vs bows except for the aesthetic of wanting to make your character appear (and possibly be) poor (which I felt I had specifically asked to not discuss in the OP). Some of the RP suggestions seemed quite dubious and nonsensical hence my earlier response. Likewise with "don't worry about the code, worry about your character." Not all characters have a driving reason to use weapon X vs weapon Y.
Anyway, thanks again for those who took the time to help answer the question.
Slings are way better for hunting dumb NPCs: 1) the ammo is free and easy to get (also, the sling item itself is cheap and easy to find); 2) maximum damage doesn't seem to be as high as for archery, but it's within 1 or 2 shots difference, which doesn't matter for dumb NPCs.
Bows are better for PK: 1) you can poison the arrows; 2) the maximum damage seems to be higher; 3) the downside is that the ammo is either expensive or fairly time-consuming to get (time=money, even if technically you can craft the arrow yourself); 4) if you don't use macros, the typing requirement for follow-up shots with a bow is simpler.
I've never noticed a "stun damage" benefit to using slings. I've never witnessed a critter or a PC get KO'ed by a sling...only regular stunned/mortally wounded.
Crossbows have a particular advantage for magickers now, but...it's probably more of a theorycrafting, very situational sort of advantage that really isn't going to come into play much.
It would depend on the game as well. I am a hunter IRL and I typically use a bow. I adjust my arrowheads based on what I am hunting. Broadheads for large game, "judo" tips for small game. For smaller game you usually want blunt force damage as opposed to large game where blood loss is desired. If I use the same ammo on a rabbit that I use on a hog I am just going to create a wasteful mess.
I have seen hunters IRL use slings for small game with great results. They are easy to carry, ammo is easy to find, and it does not destroy the meat that you are hunting for.