Armageddon General Discussion Board

Quote from: "Dakurus in Staff Announcements"There has been a increasing habit of straying from the documented reaction and relationships that create and maintain the environment that make this world what it is. In particular the attitude taken up by more and more folks to sorcerors, psionicists, and void elementalists. Secondarily the relationship to elementalists as a whole. Thirdly, the relationship to races. Please refresh yourselves with the documented attitudes that in general you shouldnt be the exception to, by reading the helpfiles and other information on the web site.

I think you'll find that, normally, the playerbase will agree. However, I believe that if we have become worse at presenting the... "documented reactions" toward such characters, it may have something to do with the fact that there are three times as many of them in the game lately as there were a year ago and prior. Everyone I know, myself included, have been meeting or otherwise encountering at least one (and usually many) of the above-mentioned characters with every single serious character since their numbers started shooting up sometime back in 2006. I recently had a character who knew three mindbenders, two undead characters, five or six elementalists and a nilazi. I do believe I had good reasons not to react according to a documentation that was written when there were probably a single-digit number of psionicists and sorcerers combined in the game at any time. The documentations also state that magick is rare, and I really don't think you can claim that it still is.

Discuss.

Yeah... I understand the staff announcement, but I was starting to think that what was happening was a bit IC.  Especially in certain areas where majick is becoming more common... in my obstructed view.  It's also hard not to lessen the "shock" of dealing with majickers when you've already been shocked nearly to death by past dealings with them.  Especially if it is with the same character.  Your character is either going to go hide under a rock and die or adapt somehow.  Or at least -pretend- to adapt to keep themself sane.

Go Dak.

Magickers and other arcane stuff aside, I've caught shit a number of times in the past few months for ripping on elves. I'm sure there are certain 'special' cases where IC circumstances justify sticking up for that goddamn skinny when my char rips into them, but it's gotten far too common for my tastes.

Screw tolerance.

-WP

Pff, I'll keep the hate for elves, 'rinthers, and other bits of scum alive....But I give up on magick. I'm choosing to completely ignore any plots with them now. If I see a magicker in the desert, I'm not interacting, I don't want ANYTHING to do with it.

Please give me a simple, mundane role where I don't run into hordes of teleporting magickers at every turn. Luckily I'm pretty far away from it all now :D

/drunkenrant

I would like to point out that however I understand why some feel there is no need to panic around visible magick because it's something far more common than usually, it's kind of annoying if your magicker of any kind casts a visible, frightening spell of doom and five of six people in the room just shrug it off.

You know, with my current character, there have been hardly a few characters that didn't turn, run, and cower when I was near them. I actually enjoy when I'm sitting there, doing my thing, and someone walks in and is scared of -me- for once.


That being said, I think people aren't so much -tolerating- magickers, as the sense of staying alive (which I believe was supposed to be prevalent) takes over for some of them, and they would rather tell any lie and befriend any magicker to further that end.

To take away people's willingness to live because you want them to RP correctly doesn't sound like a good story. If I'm out on North Road, and a sorceror starts messing with me, I will do -everything- I can to make sure I survive, and if that means becoming friends with this lonely outcast, I (OOC and IC) have no problem giving up my life to keep it.

Quote from: "Riev"
That being said, I think people aren't so much -tolerating- magickers, as the sense of staying alive (which I believe was supposed to be prevalent) takes over for some of them, and they would rather tell any lie and befriend any magicker to further that end.

To take away people's willingness to live because you want them to RP correctly doesn't sound like a good story. If I'm out on North Road, and a sorceror starts messing with me, I will do -everything- I can to make sure I survive, and if that means becoming friends with this lonely outcast, I (OOC and IC) have no problem giving up my life to keep it.

Very true... and that doesn't necessarily mean that you like them or are "tolerating" them.  It just means you are trying to find a better way to deal with them that won't get a curse put directly on you.  

I'm all for the running and screaming and attacking out of fear or hatred... but it's not always the best way to RP the sitatuation where your character values their own life.  *shrug*

I've have come to terms with the fact that with the rise of coded power, room for roleplay has completely dropped off the face of the planet.

I recently came to realize, in horror, that the Tablelands, the Southlands, and the Northlands are all equally twinky. With the end of times, everyone wants to leave their mark, and none can cope with the fact that it cannot be done without garnering the most amount of coded power. Becoming the most powerful sorcerors, mindbenders and Magickers, instead of cobblers, bards, and burglars. Nilazi, Drovian, and Elkrosian representations of Gods on Earth, instead of housewives, prostitutes, and beggars.

With the end of the world, the only players are key players. The inbetweens have fallen to the waysides, and the flavor to Armageddon has all but perished. I am completely enthused with the fact that in 2.0, we will be starting fresh, because like a child that grows into its rebellious 'teenage' years, with Armageddon rolling around to its decade and a half point, its becoming a really annoying, pimply bitch that I just want to pop.

The enviroment of Armageddon 1.0 has completely topsy-turvied, and I don't even know it anymore. I don't recognize it.

It isn't the game I fell in love with, and I am not surprised that 90% of the player base has forgotten documentation even exists for elves, or for tribals, or for magickers. Its not about the roleplay.

Its about having some cool statue that you can jerk off to every time you pass it in 2.0. Its about killing some dude, so that your dude may leave a steaming pile of silver plated shit thats cursed for all eternity, so if some character in 2.0 tries to pick it up, their balls fall off.

Seriously, I wish we never knew about 1.0 closing until a month before 2.0's completely fleshed out release.

This is the harvest of what the staff sowed, many months ago. I think it is completely, 100% expected that the player base gives a little less of a shit about roleplaying, which is sad, because Arm is one of the only completely RPI Mud's thats tagline of "Deception, Murder, Betrayal" actually played out in game.

Show me an intricate plot line between an assassin, a lover, and a noble, and I will cry with joy. Show me that mugger in the labyrinth, holding up a prostitute or that same prostitute getting saved by some wacky vigilante who just ends up selling her to slavery. Show me the bard, writing songs about love and hapiness, when he is truly a depressed individual searching for meaning.

Characters will stop acting like magick is common place in the game when it is again no longer common place.

One character can only be freaked out by a magicker so many times...

QuoteHowever, I believe that if we have become worse at presenting the... "documented reactions" toward such characters, it may have something to do with the fact that there are three times as many of them in the game lately as there were a year ago and prior.

I've said a couple times in threads about these topics that I think they actually kind of feed each other.  The balance for the power of magick has always been the hard time it was to get allies and the easy time it was to make enemies.

While I'm all for the fear and self-preservation approach...keep in mind that there's courage to be found in numbers, and a magicker who steadily harasses a populace, or becomes mistrusted by a group, may very well find themselves betrayed, mobbed, or reported.  Only the more powerful would likely be able to swerve a dedicated group away without some serious work to whittle away that group of meddlesome insects...and the more powerful will probably find themselves attracting attention from some they may not want it from.

Altogether...yes, things are skewed, but we don't need to go back to the whole 'there's too many' argument.  If people start playing the average joes and not the constant exceptions to the average joes, I really do think things will balance themselves out.

Quote from: "Armaddict"

QuoteIf people start playing the average joes and not the constant exceptions to the average joes, I really do think things will balance themselves out.

I agree. Getting them to play average joes is the problem.

In Tuluk right now, there must be some elven and human rapists on the loose because there are at LEAST six half-elves during the semi-peak time.  And some others have came and died.  

Also, for some reason, a LOT of newbies are playing northern half elves.  And when they are walking around asking about two-handed swords (to steal and example from someone else) it can be hard to ignore them (or whatever your particularly character would do).  I at least try to help out sometimes, though that surely isn't the root of the problem.

I know the past month or two has been tough for northern chars.  There's been an influx of elves, breeds, slaves, and southerners, so in my opinion, the only way to get some interaction would be to bend the rules a little.  I'll admit to that, no problem.  I try to follow the documentation as best I can but it gets to a certain point... it is a game, and the entertainment of the two involved is just as key as the atmosphere.

In short, I know where the concern comes from, but like the other players, I'm definitely seeing where it's coming from.

The staff member is entitled to ask that players remember and respect the documentation.

The players are entitled to point out that the documentation is obsolete, and to continue playing their characters as is appropriate to the *current* scheme of things. If you want people to treat magicks as if they were rare, make them rare. Otherwise, don't expect people to treat them as if they were rare. Because, they're not. Players have no control over how many magickers and psi are allowed in the game. Only the staff can approve or reject character apps, and only staff can call a moratorium on them until they are rare again.

Until then, I think it is a bit presumptuous of anyone, whether staff or player, to assume everyone is going to treat a *common presence* as a rarity.

Some characters might feel oppressed by it all.
Some might wish THEY could do all those neat things.
Some might not really care as long as the magicks aren't aimed at them.
Some might only have fear of certain types and not of others.
Some might be SO used to the commonality that they shrug it all off.
Some might shrug it all off, while at the same time be irritated by it.
Some might think they're all crazy mutants who would be better off dead, but since they can beat the shit out of me I'll keep my mouth shut and smile pretty at them.
Some might hate them.
Some might fear them all.
None should consider them rare, because they aren't. Meeting up with an average of 6 per RL day isn't "rare."

This is a far cry from the docs which imply we're all supposed to all have some measure of fear. But the docs were written during a time when magickers weren't casting spells within sight of the general populace, on major trade routes, in common gathering areas of non-magickers..etc. etc.

IC times have changed, and the docs really should change to reflect it.

I'd just like to comment that I think it's funny that the mundane player base has been bitching constantly about the number of magickers and the only staff response is to tell the mundanes that they are the problem for not playing their mundanes right.

Most "experienced" southern characters (House employees, militia, etc., as opposed to Amos the Streetsweeper) seem to be quite tolerant of the gemmed right now.  I don't see how this is other than it should be...people who actually have occasion to interact with elementalists will begin to act more from experience and less from superstition.  If anything, the documentation would seem to suggest wider employment opportunities for gemmers than apparently exist.

If the staff think that gemmed interactions are out of kilter and feel up to posting some suggestions or guidelines more specific than those in the documentation, I, for one, would do my best to follow them.

I didn't see anything about mundanes interacting incorrectly in the announcement, maybe it's the elementalists?

Anyways, any elves having troubles should touch up on Naephet and Kurano's Desert Elf Misconceptions post, it's available in the racial roleplay documentation.

Quote from: "Hot_Dancer"I didn't see anything about mundanes interacting incorrectly in the announcement, maybe it's the elementalists?

I'll put this out there for critique: my assumption has been that an elementalist will, in general, post-gemming, want to continue in his or her original social status and interactions.  Fear of rejection or violence may eventually cause him to shy away from interaction with mundanes, but he'll likely want as much "normalcy" as he can get.

QuoteThe tall, muscular man says, "Hullo there, Amos! What's happenin'? Where you been?"
The short, spindly man says, a note of caution in your voice, "Hey, Malik. Uh, I just learnt I can kill you wit' mah brain..."
The tall, muscular man peers at your dull black gem.

One of the things I hope to see in Armageddon 2.0 is races and classes that have need(s) to interact with each other, as well as cultural traits that will naturally cause tension. Take, for example, the worship of a certain beast by one culture, and the belief that eating that same beast's heart gives you strength by another culture, give them reasons to depend on each other for trade (as an example of a need to interact), and presto, you have conflict.

That sort of thing would be preferable to the "everyone hates everyone" mentality that seems so prevalent in Armageddon 1.0, which actually stifles roleplay and interaction more than it promotes it.

Quote from: "Dakurus in Staff Announcements"In particular the attitude taken up by more and more folks to sorcerors, psionicists, and void elementalists. Secondarily the relationship to elementalists as a whole.

emphasis added

Um....the statement is pretty clearly directed at mundanes interacting with magickers. Unless Dak is using folks to refer to magickers and mundanes in which case I would ask what the magickers are doing in their interactions with each other that is not right.

Don't be obtuse, this post is clearly directed at those of us who aren't playing walking tactical nukes. My point stands, months of complaints from the mundane players and the only staff response is to tell the mundanes that their role-play is wrong.

I'd also add that even though the docs say humans and elves mistrust each other etc. It also says we are supposed to be afraid of magickers right? When the only other mundane player around is an elf and you are a human what are you supposed to do? Can't interact with the magickers, can't interact with the mundanes. Guess we're all supposed to go live in caves or something. Maybe the reason there are so many half-elves is because they have a much better chance of being able to legitimantly interact with whoever they run into regardless of race.

Aside from magickers:

I am getting personally really tired of people reacting to half elves and elves like they're actual people!  What the fuck, everyone knows those disgusting mudbloods look bad on us all.  And elves, those damn skinnies you can't trust a word that comes out of their mouths.

My first character got it on with all sorts of weirdos and everyone's immediate reaction around me was OMG WTF RU DOING!  I miss those days.  It gave way to some awesome drama and RP.  It was great.  Now everyone is not only cuddling around with half elves like they aren't the disgusting vermin that they are, I see northern and southern people getting along AFTER THE COPPER WAR.

I'm glad someone finally said it.  The whole world has changed it's like the docs don't even exist in some regards.

Back on the topic of magickers:

I am so so so so disappointed in magickers.  I played one -briefly- before I made my current character and I did shit like sit around and craft, hang out in Luir's and then maybe sometimes go hang out with my mount and cast and then muse about why people thought I was abomination.  No one knew, in fact I had some mundane friends.  I miss magicker's like Maurader Moe's and Larrath's old magickers the types that were deathly afraid about "coming out."  And then rejected and killed when they did.  I hate walking around and wondering if EVERYONE I meet is a magicker.  When I first started playing I can't remember EVER encountering a magicker outside of the gates in three months of playing.  Sure there were gemmers but magickers outside?  Rarely.  Then I saw it get a little more common and then bam!  Now it's like everyday I'm hearing not only about magickers IG but altered magicks that must require IMM approval, special app or interaction.  I'm not blaming the IMMs but when I'm sitting on my mundane ass in an empty tavern and then someone runs in telling me another horror story IG or OOC I have to wonder to myself... wtf?

Bring back mundanes FTW.

[/end rant]

Perhaps it's time to rethink how 'powerful' characters are applied for again.

Considering magicker population, "more and more folks" can easily refer to interaction from elemantlist to elementalist, or elementalist to void elementalist, or elementalist to sorceror and psionicist.

In my very personal, non-staff opinion:

The game needs more mundanity. A couple of years ago I would see elementalists killing each other to further themselves in relation to their element. I would see mundanes persue mundane goals, and I would see magickers persue goals related to their magick. I have to ask, where is the conflict now?

What are -you- doing Oh Antithesis to the -insert magicker type here-? Be you mundane or magicker, there are guidelines set out that are not being followed, or more importantly, left to the wayside for fear of retribution by other players. Gasp. There is a reason for the documented lines of mistrust, because if all the pices of the elemental -and- mundane puzzle work together you are effectively creating an unstoppable killing machine that was never intended to exist.

My solution to the percieved problems?

Pretend the game is not ending soon.
Respect and follow the documentation.
Quit powergaming.

So then the staff has a problem because the magickers aren't properly roleplaying their fear of each other? But how can magickers not be roleplaying properly? After all, everyone with karma is a great roleplayer who can be trusted with powerful roles or has had their special app carefully reviewed and approved because of their history of consistantly good rp. That's the whole basis of the karma system by my understanding.

Also, where in the docs does it describe magicker-magicker interactions in any detail? After all, the post is about people not playing by the docs. So if their post really is targeted at magickers instead of mundanes I'm sure there must be a doc that describes this interaction.

Quote from: "Clamach"In my very personal, non-staff opinion:

The game needs more mundanity. A couple of years ago I would see elementalists killing each other to further themselves in relation to their element. I would see mundanes persue mundane goals, and I would see magickers persue goals related to their magick. I have to ask, where is the conflict now?

What are -you- doing Oh Antithesis to the -insert magicker type here-? Be you mundane or magicker, there are guidelines set out that are not being followed, or more importantly, left to the wayside for fear of retribution by other players. Gasp. There is a reason for the documented lines of mistrust, because if all the pices of the elemental -and- mundane puzzle work together you are effectively creating an unstoppable killing machine that was never intended to exist.

My solution to the percieved problems?

Pretend the game is not ending soon.
Respect and follow the documentation.
Quit powergaming.

There's a lot of restrictions in-game these days, from keeping players going their own ways... Trust me, I'd have my characters going completely -away- from the norm. It's odd for a game that encourages creativity, that it's so hard to pursue it in-character.

I'd also prefer to see powergaming END though, that'd be GREAT.

Quote from: "Alberic"But how can magickers not be roleplaying properly? After all, everyone with karma is a great roleplayer who can be trusted with powerful roles or has had their special app carefully reviewed and approved because of their history of consistantly good rp.

Ah heh heh... I'm not touching this one.

I wish no announcement had been made that the game was ending. I hate playing magickers
and I love having my mundanes hate them, however, when three out of four pcs is a magicker
I am not going to -not- interact with them and have to constantly solo by myself or leave a
popular establishment because of it.

I understand the Staff's feelings towards being more relaxed with people playing karma classes
that do not have it, but IMHO it is killing the game. Too many special apps, too many magickers,
why couldn' we just keep a quota like we used to. I dunno, If the imms really want the game to
go back to normal, I -THINK- they would restrict the number of special apps and magickers
in the game.

I am not a staffer, so maybe there is something I am not seeing, but As much as I respect
all of you, but you all have brought it up, realism vs playability, and Frankly it wouldn't
be that fun of a game if I could not interact with 75% of the PC population because I am
a mundane.

Quote from: "Clamach"...I have to ask, where is the conflict now?

The conflict is between the characters and survival.  When the world ends, you're going to try everything you damn well can do to survive the apocalypse.

The problem was created with the announcement.  The 'goal' of people's enjoyment changed.  They want their characters to survive.  (which is part of the reason why we play the game.)

You're telling me to not play to survive, because the main source of conflict for my character is the death that is coming soon.   You don't roleplay in a cardboard box.  I hope everybody realizes that you're telling me to play the game for reasons I don't want to play the game for.

People realize this, right?  Right?  

How to fix it?  - End the world now, this weekend.  Take a break.  Focus attention on the new game.  Start it up again with a bang.  Take this dying creature out and shoot it.  Because this experiment has gone on for a year, and it's not fun.

Or, forcefully retire 75% of the total population of players.

Because 75% of the total population of players aren't mundane.

I think people (understand - players) should stop complaining about other people's RP. Read the post. Think about the post. If you think you do something wrong, change it. Let other people to have fun with playing whatever they enjoy to play. If they do something wrong, either they got hint after this post or perhaps they don't do anything wrong. And if so, I'm sure IMMs will correct their misunderstanding sooner or later.

Honestly, threads like this make me to think I'd not read GDB at all. It only makes me not in mood to log in the game.

It seems like everyone is begging the imms to "fix everything" for them. That's so sad and indicative of today's society. Wouldn't it be nice to have someone else take care of all your problems? Seems like the  best solution would be for everyone ranting about how we need more mundanes and need to get back to the RP of old, to just do it, instead of bitching about it.

Want to see less magickers? Get a group of your magicker hating friends and go hunt them down.

Want to see more people RPing the average citizen?  Do it yourself.

Lead by example. If you want the humans to hate the elves and breeds...make an issue of it IG. Spit on them, kick them when they get too close, start fights with them for daring to enter your favorite establishment.

Stop complaining about everyone elses RP and focus on your own.

If your character hates magickers, how would they respond IG to the obvious increase in their numbers? Solve it IG, rather than trying to get everyone to agree with you on an OOC level.

Ummm. Everyone complaining is already playing a mundane. The thing is, there is, the staff are the only ones who can stop the magicker flood. Every magicker that gets killed just goes and makes a new magicker, except this time they will kill the character who killed them on site with magickal powers and the RP excuse of hating mundanes or something. Until staff stop approving tons of magickers there is nothing the mundane players can do.

Also, how are you supposed to put together a group to hunt down magickers when almost everyone is a magicker? Odds are you will accidently recruit a secret magicker and they will have the power to wipe out your whole group.

Man, you people moan a lot.

Quote from: "Simple"Man, you people moan a lot.

I've been moaning about this all year long.

Okay, let's not get too negative in a discussion about a game.  

I was a little dismayed by the announcement by the staff to begin with, but after reading all of this I am starting to be pushed back toward favoring the staff announcement.  

Here's why:  Because I think it is obvious that there are a good amount of people out there that are going against the docs for the wrong reasons.  Like I said myself, I know that it is hard to hate and fear majickers when you see them all the time, but regardless of whether or not you temporarily befriend a majicker - you should be constantly plotting and planning on ways to get rid of the majickers.  That's just my opinion - and one that I should be following a little more myself.  But yeah, I guess it still depends on your character.  

Still, even if you do have an ally that happens to be a majicker - I find it hard to believe that you will suddenly love and understand all the other wretched abominations out there that indirectly curse you just by walking and breathing in the same region as you.

Over the years I've seen a movement toward the "we are majickers, we should unite and all sing happy songs and dance together".  I think that is kinda annoying and unrealistic, but perhaps a -little- IC'ly correct in certain circumstances.  Yet I am guessing that it is happening a little too often than it should in the harsh world of Zalanthas.  This kinda goes for the acceptance of half-elves and elves also.

So to summarize, yeah... either the world has changed or the amount of PC's playing majickers have changed.  I'm guessing that the world has changed a little less and people are just acting a little too much like it has changed more.  I'm also guessing that if everyone started hating and fearing majickers a little more (at least in their own mind or behind closed doors while they plot to lessen their numbers a lot more) then there might be a little less of a problem.  

The obsidian blade will likely cut both ways.

Quote from: "Alberic"
Also, how are you supposed to put together a group to hunt down magickers when almost everyone is a magicker? Odds are you will accidently recruit a secret magicker and they will have the power to wipe out your whole group.

I would imagine that there are a lot of majickers out there that hate other majickers - or at least that's the way I think it should be.  Or they may at least hate majickers of other kinds.  *shrug*  But yeah, you may be discovered and wiped out... that's no reason not to try harder.  ;)

Remember, kids:  hate makes the world go 'round.

(Or at least turn the world into a gigantic dustbowl.)

I think if you have a newly created character that starts mouthing off to elves, calling half-elves crazy, and abuses magickers, you won't live very long. You need the back up of some of the longer living and more respected characters.

If people start doing it, it might bring things in the right direction.

What say, chums?

Ok, Morrigan, I have never done this before because it has not been warranted until your
post.

Quote from: "morrigan"It seems like everyone is begging the imms to "fix everything" for them. That's so sad and indicative of today's society. Wouldn't it be nice to have someone else take care of all your problems? Seems like the  best solution would be for everyone ranting about how we need more mundanes and need to get back to the RP of old, to just do it, instead of bitching about it. .

I am going to -guess- you have not been around for more than a couple of years. Lets start by the definition of administrator from Dictionary.com:    a person who manages or has a talent for managing.

Now because I can see you being the nitpick type here is the definition of Managing:    to bring about or succeed in accomplishing, sometimes despite difficulty or hardship. DEF #2:    to take charge or care of

So what can we conclude, an administrator is someone who has a talent for taking charge and care of something despite difficulty or hardship. Meaning if there is a problem they fix it, Hence the discussion. And believe it or not, all things can not be handled ICly. And so you DO know, the only reason there are an influx of Magickers is because they are being lax with special apps. There used to be a quota of how many special apps could be in the game at one time, not any more since the game is going down, everyone will be able to try a race or class they want to.

Mansa if you could find that link that Sanvean wrote that post, I would appreciate it.

Next:

Quote from: "morrigan"Want to see less magickers? Get a group of your magicker hating friends and go hunt them down..

Do you even have any idea how long it takes for a mundane to advance to the point where he can beat a magicker? It takes a magicker 3-7 days played generally to be able to kill advanced mundanes somewhat easily. Do you know how long it takes a mundane generally to get their skills to a level where they might be able to survive an attack from a decently trained magicker? Try 20-30 days played as opposed to the 3-7 for the magicker.

Quote from: "morrigan"Want to see more people RPing the average citizen?  Do it yourself.

In case you either can not read, or just choose to ignore the obvious, the people that are complaining ARE playing Mundanes, or at least 95% of them.

Quote from: "morrigan"Lead by example. If you want the humans to hate the elves and breeds...make an issue of it IG. Spit on them, kick them when they get too close, start fights with them for daring to enter your favorite establishment.

This I agree with, I do it myself, so a good point.

Quote from: "morrigan"Stop complaining about everyone else's RP and focus on your own

Once again if you were to read the thread you would know no one is COMPLAINING about anyones RP, they are complaining that being told by an imm to act accordingly towards magickers, elves, whatever it may be, when they are close to 60-75% of the pc population, come on, why would I want to play a game where I can only interact kindly to 1 in 2 pcs, maybe 1 in 4. It is called Realism vs Playability, there have been many threads on this issue.

Quote from: "morrigan"If your character hates magickers, how would they respond IG to the obvious increase in their numbers? Solve it IG, rather than trying to get everyone to agree with you on an OOC level.

My favorite statement. Once again, if it was real life, and you hate a certain fraternity, and they outnumber you 3 to 1, are a hell of a lot more powerful than you, can beat your ass from a distance, burn you with a snap of a finger, how would you solve it, by being a complete dick in hopes they beat your ass so everyone will agree with you, or befriending them?

For some odd reason this thread reminds me all "Lets close Tuluk" discussions I saw on GDB over years.

Quote from: "Krath"My favorite statement. Once again, if it was real life, and you hate a certain fraternity, and they outnumber you 3 to 1, are a hell of a lot more powerful than you, can beat your ass from a distance, burn you with a snap of a finger, how would you solve it, by being a complete dick in hopes they beat your ass so everyone will agree with you, or befriending them?

In the meantime, plot to turn the tables against them.  That's the part that I think is getting overlooked.  No, I wouldn't do that in real life unless they just continued to be jackasses who did stupid stuff like date rape and picking on others.

This is Armageddon.  Majickers will always be majickers, whether you befriend them or not.  They will always be wretched, unnatural beasts that need to be slaughtered eventually.  So yeah, befriend them until the time is right... (which should be as short a time as possible) let them trust you and then... *splat*

Quote from: "Alberic"Every magicker that gets killed just goes and makes a new magicker, except this time they will kill the character who killed them on sight with magickal powers and the RP excuse of hating mundanes or something.

Alberic, if you think this is actually happening, you should report it to staff, to whom such behavior ought to be very transparent (account Amos' PC killed by account Malik's PC ==> account Malik's PC killed by account Amos' new PC).  That's surely plenty of excuse to get Angry Amos' karma wiped.

If it's not happening, don't spread baseless nasty rumors. :lol: We've got plenty of rancor going without hyperbole.

Everyone loves my numbers, so here, have some:

-- My current character has interacted * with at least 92 non-mundane characters. (No telling how many total, since there could be a quantity who kept things sekret.)
-- Of those, 27 have been sorcerors, mindbenders, or Nilazis. (29%)

* Interaction includes all sorts of things, from "saw a guy with gem at bar" to "battled against" to "battled alongside" to "hung out and had some brews" to "gritted my teeth while it touched me" to "fell in love with before I knew what they were."

You're right Krath. Only about three years or so of playtime, with long breaks in between. I don't see what that has to do with anything though. I'm quite capable of forming opinions in the blink of an eye, as is just about everyone else in the world.  Also, I realize that some of what I said was a bit generalized. That's how I speak...generally. As for the chances of beating down the magickers, without giving away any IC info, I'll just say it is -very possible- even for weak characters, especially if you get a groupe of 3 to 1 or more against said magicker. I wasn't trying to imply that there -aren't- too many magickers, just emphasize that mundanes, like myself, need to focus on our character's lives, rather than the non-mundane's.  My current character is doing quite well avoiding magickers...hasn't "met" one yet. I find it hard to believe that the mundanes are outnumbered overall, but then, I'm not privy to those stats. And yes, I understand what you're saying about the admins being in the position to help, but how many threads like this have there been? Have they smote the excess magickers with their mighty powers of smiting yet? So, what I was meaning to say is, perhaps the time for complaining is over and everyone will just have to do their best until the problem is resolved in one way or another.

One thing I would like to say, which I think is a different perspective on many people who disagree with the staffmember's original post.

I have nothing against the influx of magickers, because I started playing when there already was one. RPwise, I know no different, so I'm not spoiled "against" it. What I have a problem with, is the documentation that insists these magickers are rare and as a result of their rarity and mystery surrounding what they can and cannot do, should be feared/loathed/hated.

They are neither rare nor mysterious, because they cast openly in front of mundanes on a regular basis. If they are neither rare nor mysterious, then the basis of the fear/loathing/hatred falls away and is no longer valid.

Now, if you want to fear/hate/loathe them because they can kill you easier than you can kill them, great. If your fear/hatred/loathing is because they're abominations and the abominations are TAKING OVER THE WORLD, terrific. If it's because you have the magicker version of penis-envy, awesome. All are valid reasons to fear/hate/loathe a magicker IMO.

But don't tell me I have to fear/hate/loathe because they're rare and mysterious, because I'll just tell you I disagree and its the docs that need to be changed, not me who has to comply with the docs.

Quote from: "morrigan"What you said, just to stop the spam

Ok, I misunderstood you then. I see what you are saying and agree, I thought you meant that
the number of magickers was fine.

I don't think we should be making characters with the specific goal to kill magicker PCs.  That's nearing twinkish.

I just wanted to respond to people's thoughts about when elves, half-elves, or other undesireables are the only mundanes around to interact with.  The documentation most certainly does not state that humans do not interact with elves or half-elves.  Your interactions can be more extensive than a scowl from across the room without being completely buddy-buddy.  If you are of a very high social standing, you might find your potential interactions with these races more limited, but in that case, you are also playing an exceptional character, and you should understand and be comfortable with their limitations

You can interact, and do business with elves and half-elves.  Elves, in particular, are known for being good at acquiring special goods.  That doesn't mean you have to be best friends.  Most players of elves and half-elves would be thrilled to have interactions with other characters that are laced with scorn, distrust, and insulting undertones.  They know to expect this kind of treatment and roll with it, and it will probably earn you more respect from them, IC and OOC.  Someone who plays at being best buddies with an elf is most likely going to get ripped off.  If they don't understand the expectations of their racial roleplay, it's time they learn, and you're the one to teach them.


So yes, talk to them, do business, make deals, do things that benefit you.  It doesn't mean you have to like them, or even pretend to.

Although I understand that the discussions around mundanes vs magickers and around the number of magickers are currently hot topics, some of those who have commented are correct. The announcement is not specific to those areas. It's magickers to magickers, tribes to tribes, races to races, cultures to cultures, lowbrow to highbrow and so on. These relationships form the base of the environment. Yes, many other factors affect this, including the numbers of people playing a particular guild, or even the number of players currently in a clan.

I'm sure that many of you are aware that we as staff can monitor you, be it your emotes, says, thinks, and so on, but obviously we can only know what you tell the game, not what goes on in your players head. If we can't see the resentment, fear, capitulation, anger, disgust, sorrow, horror, plotting, sadness, surprise, caution, stress, and other multitude of emotions that these relationships could cause, it's very likely that the other players themselves cannot either.

We're all a team here. Each bringing our own skills and talents to the game. The framework is there, so we have a commonplace to start and in theory to finish.

So you see more elves, so you see more magickers, does that mean you trust them any more? Perhaps you don't run in fear at some point, but don't you still check your pockets as a force of years of ingrained habit. Make offhand racist jokes accidentally or purposefully. Don't you still question their motivation? Wonder when they're going to decide to eat your heart or drain your lifeforce? And when you meet that next one, what makes you think they are like the last, these aliens, these outsiders, these folks whose ways are strange, ways you cannot share. Evaluate each and every relationship with outsiders carefully, each on it's own merits, as your character would think, not your player. What drives you into that relationship, what keeps you there, and what does your upbringing and your people think about such a thing. Consider the relationships that your character would not have, no matter what, and what the breaking point would be. Violence is a common answer on zalanthas, but far far from the only one.

So review the documentation, you as a human will never be an elf, you'll never really understand their nature, and you have some pretty definitive beliefs about them.
Mind benders, Defilers, the very scourge of the world. Sucking the life out of the planet, your soul, sapping your will, putting thoughts into your head.
Nilazis, the very anti-thesis of elementalists.
Muls, deadly, dangerous, bred, slaves (ex), and who outside them understands their motivations, their mood swings.
HGs, halflings, rinthers, nobles, etc

Quote from: "Lizzie"They are neither rare nor mysterious, because they cast openly in front of mundanes on a regular basis. If they are neither rare nor mysterious, then the basis of the fear/loathing/hatred falls away and is no longer valid.

This is the fault of the magicker player for not being discreet, and the fault of the mundane player for being willing to stick around while magick is being cast (without a background of familiarity with magick; being a tribal whose mother is a vivaduan is one thing, being a Tuluki is another). It doesn't automatically make it okay to start chumming around with life-sucking sorcerers.

Quote from: "Lizzie"They are neither rare nor mysterious, because they cast openly in front of mundanes on a regular basis.

Good point.  It's probably somewhat unwise for even gemmers to flaunt their powers if there's any alternative.

Yes I can definitely see what you're saying Dakurus. But short of adding to my bio (which now that you have posted, I fully plan on doing), there really is no way for staff to know that my character's current attitude toward things is the result of CONSTANT exposure to those things. I mean, you can only be afraid of all magickers for so many years until you finally accept a vivaduan's existence, and even look forward to some of the things his magicks can provide - and that rukkian, well turns out she can do a few things that you -really- could use right now, and how about that, she not only offers, but she didn't even demand a baby for a sacrifice like you heard they all did!

You spend enough time, as a mundane, being surrounded by certain things, and eventually you get used to it and end up even forming bonds and friendships of verying degrees as a result. Your character could even be boggled by the notion that he's buddies with a fire-mage. One of those "go figure!" kind of things. But there he is, buddies with a fire-mage. All because he's had to deal with mages for so long it's just another part of daily life to him now, and it's SO much easier to break down and be friendly, and learn to accept, than it is to harbor fear for the rest of your life over something you really can't change.

There are a lot of plotlines running in the game (many of them staff-initiated) that are, in my opinion, the reason for so many of the "unlikely bedfellows" relationships that may go against the documentation but are still IC giving specific circumstances.

I think the best thing to do, if your character is heading down a path that might at all conflict with the docs, is to immediately write a detailed biography about the situation. You might also send an email to applicable staff to further explain yourself. The difference between coming off as a detailed, deeply motivated character who has a reason to tolerate that nilazi she works with, even while she feels inner disgust and conflict at the things he does, and coming off as an opportunist who is ignoring the docs and is hanging around with the nilazi because he has cool coded power, may just be the amount of effort you're putting into your roleplay and background.

The docs should definitely be the basis all new characters start from, but characters should be allowed to evolve their beliefs, whether that means more firmly reinforcing the documented behaviors or straying from them. Longer lived characters will have had more time for exposure to strange things, and so more time to evolve. I think the docs should be the starting point for nearly everyone, but I wouldn't want to see them cemented into a straightjacket.

Southie: good post, and hilarious sig.

Everything that Southie said:

QFT and totally appropriate not only to my situation but for many others during the current IC life of Zalanthans worldwide.

I just want to agree with Dakurus.

I have seen an absurd amount of people simply ignoring the background cultures provided for various groups in the game.  Your individual character's beliefs and motivations should really not (often) run contrary to these, though some people feel that this is the way to make their character 'unique'.

I have recently retired characters because the players in my clan would not abide by the culture documentation.  I became -extremely- frustrated with constantly putting forth effort to abide by and flesh out this culture, and having it ignored by my peers and superiors.

Quote
You spend enough time, as a mundane, being surrounded by certain things, and eventually you get used to it and end up even forming bonds and friendships of verying degrees as a result. Your character could even be boggled by the notion that he's buddies with a fire-mage.

The elementalist quarter has -always- been in Allanak.  Citizens of Allanak have -always- had to deal with having these people close-by but untrusted.  Simply incorporate this reality into your roleplay.

Besides, Dakurus specifically mentioned SORCERERS, PSIONISTS, and NILAZIs -before- other elementalists, races, and cultures.  These are the groups that are accepted by -very- few cultures, and who are being accepted by far too many players.

That's all I have to say for now, peace and shit.

The simple and pure fact of the matter is this:

There are so many mages in the world right now because, right now, people are choosing to play mages.

If more people choose to play mundanes, there would, again, be more mundanes in the world.

And no matter if you're the last mundane on Zalanthas, and your parents were both psionicists, and your ex girlfriends have all been sorcerers... you should STILL hate them.  These people are the scourge of the world, as Dakurus mentioned.  They have been hunted since time began, and will continue to be hunted as long as time continues.  So your pet jozhal was a nilazi and used to give you voidjobs... so fucking what.  It doesn't matter how many times your 'hardbitten, hardboiled young man' has seen the face of the Nilaz through various summonings.  If you see someone reach into mid air, and pull out a seventeen cord tall demonic entity that eats souls for breakfast, YOU SHOULD STILL BE FREAKED OUT.

That demon can obviously eat a hundred people in a row, gladiator and noble alike, and be bored after a half hour of playing artistically with the body parts.

Your very soul is repulsed by the idea of its (the demon's, not your soul's) existence.  Every fiber of your being shouts to you to run in fear, as you rightfully should.

Southie has an excellent point.  If something radical changes that would completely turn your PC's view of things, add a bio entry, and email your clanfolk.  Let us know what precisely is going on, and why it is justified.  We don't eat brainz unless we're hungry, and we only get hungry when we don't have bio entries to feed on.

Luckily for all of you slackers, there's multiple folks out there with sixty+ bio entries.  I am not exaggerating.

To those of you with the massive amounts of bios, Kudos.  You keep us absolutely informed, and there is rarely a question of what you're doing.

QuoteThe players are entitled to point out that the documentation is obsolete, and to continue playing their characters as is appropriate to the *current* scheme of things.

The documentation is NOT obsolete.  If it were, it would have been changed and there would have been announcements about the change in society so that people could begin to roleplay accordingly -without- being an exception.

The *current* scheme of things is exactly the same as it always has been, it's just up to the players to play it that way.  Everyone makes exceptions for themselves, everyone decides they've seen mages enough that its okay to make them friendly with them and not a big deal and so on.

QuoteMost "experienced" southern characters (House employees, militia, etc., as opposed to Amos the Streetsweeper) seem to be quite tolerant of the gemmed right now.

They are.  The keyword is tolerant.  They may sit down at the bar with a couple of gemmers.  May even politely tip their head while keeping their eyes forward.  But they aren't joining a conversation about the current ranks of mages in the Quarter, or about some other magickal willy nilly.  These are tools of the Templarate, they will always be around.

But they're still just tools that are...questionable.

QuoteThere is a reason for the documented lines of mistrust, because if all the pices of the elemental -and- mundane puzzle work together you are effectively creating an unstoppable killing machine that was never intended to exist.

You know.  Here is when I will agree with what others have said.  This -is- where you are supposed to step in, as staff.  'Send' them about the inappropriateness.  If it's going on in a city...make powers that be REACT.  Once an unstoppable killing machine arises, it's kind of hard for the average player to react, since...you know...it's unstoppable...and they don't wanna die.

I'll never forget the days where powergaming was weeded off by random groups of baddies assaulting you constantly until you got -really- scared and hauled ass back to the city, or died.

Though i see the hate between elves/humans/half-elves, north/south mainly because i'm around decent mundane RPers these days or at least some great super secret hidden magicker which i don't mind at all since i can't tell the difference. I definately don't see the hate between magickers and mundanes (in places other then Tuluk), and even less so between the elements(fire/water,earth/wind) and elements/defiling/psi/nilazi. Specifically those last three defiling/psi/nilazi should have a very hard time finding groups and people to socialize with without hiding their nature.

I never ever want to point out a defiler to a few mundanes and have to hear them say 'oh, its just another type of magicker, lets invite them for drinks'....again.

I can understand why some people will say that they should be able to accustomed to these types of character but i think some are failing to understand that they are special with the context and setting of the world. Magick maybe seem common to your character but its probably -only- to your character and like mentioned  in previous post you better have a damn good reason which are outlined though bio/think/emote/emails to be hanging around and socializing with such people like if they were common.  

The docs do not have to change, your character should realize they are not the norm knowing and dealing with so many magickers. In short they are no different then elves who for some reason which i'm sure they think is good (and which very well might be) begin riding mounts.

Want me to follow the docs?

Sure! How about you guys follow them too?

I'll go along with this..

QuoteNot only will the general populace distrust void elementalists, but all the other elementalists seek to drive them from existance...  Due to their nature, void elementalists are distrustful of most and so make questionable at best travelling companions.

This..

QuoteWhile magickers are tolerated in some places, they are generally feared and distrusted by the vast majority of the population of Zalanthas. In many places, magickers are killed upon discovery, and even the rumor that one is a magicker can lead to one's death..

And this..

QuoteBecause of their ability to deal directly with peoples minds, true psionicists are killed on sight (though of course none would be so foolish as to announce their presence openly, just as a defiler would not) in just about every civilized region of Zalanthas, due to their highly dangerous potential.

And even this..

QuoteBecause of their potential power, the Kings of Old, as well as the lords of the city-states of the contemporary world, do not permit sorcerers to exist. All who demonstrate knowledge or use of wizardry are typically killed at the earliest opportunity.

..if you guys will just abide by this.

QuoteMagick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas.

I see a lot of resentment towards interactions with particular classes of people, be it elves, half-elves, magickers, mindbenders, whatever.

At the same time, the game appears to be suffering, not because there are more magickers, or more half-elves, but because they are becoming IGly more accepted.

This is not particularly realistic. What happens when a large influx of aliens enters a chauvinistic society?

Look at yourselves for the answer.

Resent these people just as much IG as you do OOC. I guarantee it to be fun, in the long term - especially if you can't do anything to them. That just makes you resent them more, doesn't it? cf magickers.

The chauvinistic boundaries are breaking down because we, as players, are not enforcing them as well as we should be.

So, given the "solution" that many of you have presented, how would you feel if you received this note:

QuoteYou've been bumped down to 1k because other players think there are too many magickers.  Sorry about that, I know it's the loss of a lot of great roleplaying effort to get up to where you were in karma level.

PS.  If there are too many desert elves we may have to take that last point away as well.

So, should I cut and paste that 500 times and remove everyone's karma, or do you think Dakurus' idea of everyone stepping back and checking to make sure they're not part of the problem, is actually a more reasonable solution?

Er...if that's in regards to my post, Vanth, I apologize, I didn't want it to sound that way.

What I meant is that when boundaries are clearly being ignored or not realized...a single send or email does -wonders- to fix it.

At least with me.

Quote from: "Vanth"So, given the "solution" that many of you have presented, how would you feel if you received this note:

QuoteYou've been bumped down to 1k because other players think there are too many magickers.  Sorry about that, I know it's the loss of a lot of great roleplaying effort to get up to where you were in karma level.

PS.  If there are too many desert elves we may have to take that last point away as well.

So, should I cut and paste that 500 times and remove everyone's karma, or do you think Dakurus' idea of everyone stepping back and checking to make sure they're not part of the problem, is actually a more reasonable solution?

I am fine with it.

In fact, if you promise that 98% of the players will be bumped to 1 karma, I am willing to donate all of mine, store my current char and be denied of any special app until the game ends.

Unlike Ghost here, I am willing to take a look at my own interactions and attempt to follow the documentation as best possible.

Christ, people, it's not like they're asking that much.

Quote from: "Vanth"So, given the "solution" that many of you have presented, how would you feel if you received this note:

QuoteYou've been bumped down to 1k because other players think there are too many magickers.  Sorry about that, I know it's the loss of a lot of great roleplaying effort to get up to where you were in karma level.

PS.  If there are too many desert elves we may have to take that last point away as well.

So, should I cut and paste that 500 times and remove everyone's karma, or do you think Dakurus' idea of everyone stepping back and checking to make sure they're not part of the problem, is actually a more reasonable solution?

You can take my karma, but I don't think the whole karma levels situation is the problem at fault.

How about a 'regenerating karma' situation, where you 'regen' up to your karma level once per IG year.  I.E. 1 karma point per 6 weeks.


I think the problem stems with the focus of the game and what people want to accomplish inside this current game.

If it means getting the old game back, take my karma.

I already think about this issue CONSTANTLY. Because I am confronted with it CONSTANTLY in game. I have anguished and torn my hair out (metaphorically OOCly) over this damn issue. I am so SICK of this issue. It's like being exposed to loud noise over a long period of time; eventually you go deaf. My character and I are almost completely numb to magick anymore, all of my nerve endings have been worn away by the constant grating of so much magick.

TAKE MY KARMA. I am not using it anyways.

I don't want to sound snotty or add oil to flame on what seems to be understandable irritation on Vanth's part but i would honestly trade all my karma to play 20 or even 15 day old mundane characters.

Hell even 10 day old mundane characters would be worth it. One of the best part of rangers is not having to learn to ride again and again.

Take my karma too, I am with ghost.

Perhaps a Player Staff meeting needs to be called?

I mean - we haven't had one of them in a long time.

Quote from: "mansa"Perhaps a Player Staff meeting needs to be called?

I mean - we haven't had one of them in a long time.

Seconded.

I'd prefer that a little love gets tossed back to the mundanes to make them cool again. I've been playing for 5 or so years I think and magickers have gotten a lot more attention in coded skills than mundanes. I only mention this because this is a low magick, "gritty" fantasy game. Why is more happening for magickers?

All volunteers' wishes have been granted.  Any other volunteers?

I would be willing to sacrifice my race and class options willingly and eagerly in order to preserve the integrity of the game I love so much and despise seeing so far from what I remember falling for. But, I would rather see staff rule like tartars and slap people down for playing one karma-guild after another without break and fall like a ton of shit on those magickers and others who can't seem to follow the docs.

I haven't played one of my karma options in at least six months anyway, so I would be totally fine with special apps only.

QuoteMagick is a mysterious and very rare power on Zalanthas.

Well shit in a bag and punch it! Someone's been readin' them docs!

-WP throws a chair through a window.

While I would gladly sacrifice my meager karma points for such a cause, it's obviously not the solution. Too many players would feel cheated, and most of us who complain don't even use that karma for anything much.

What I do believe could help, as I suspect this to be a big part of the cause to the problem, is to stop or severely restrict special apps.

In either case, I think it's time to do more than nothing about the obvious problem.

Quote from: "Vanth"All volunteers' wishes have been granted.  Any other volunteers?

Yay! More staff punishing the people who want to play mundanes. I believe you stated in your post that you would do this to everyone and people were volunteering to give up karma if it would end the magicker flood. I think what you probably should have said (and this would have been more honest) is: I'm sick of you all bitching, shut up or I'll take away your Karma. Beatings will continue until morale improves.

You know what, take my karma too. Someone else said they would give up karma if their character got the skills of a 10 day old. Did you do what he was requesting or just take his karma because he is bringing up a real problem you disagree with.

Take my karma too.  If you know what my account name is.

Nyah nyah.

Quote from: "Vanth"All volunteers' wishes have been granted.  Any other volunteers?

I'm doing what I can to help moderate the game world.

I'm agreeing to what you sarcastically suggested.

(and what nobody else suggested in the entire thread)

I'm fine with your suggestion.

Quote from: "Coat of Arms"
What I do believe could help, as I suspect this to be a big part of the cause to the problem, is to stop or severely restrict special apps.

They've been severely restricted for at least 6 months now, as the 15 people who have been declined for psionicists alone, could tell you.

Quote from: "Vanth"All volunteers' wishes have been granted.  Any other volunteers?

I'm sorry Vanth, but it sounds like your asking us to step into a gas chamber.

I completely agree with Ghost and Mansa.

0 karma FTW!!

EDIT: C'mon everyone, jump on board. Who needs Karma, anyways?

Vanth is correct. I was denied for a Psi due to too many being in game.

But that doesn't address the fact that you can hardly walk ingame without tripping over a spelled-up magicker. Special-apps or earned karma, they're there and they're far too numerous for my, and many others', taste.

-WP

Quote from: "Vanth"So, given the "solution" that many of you have presented, how would you feel if you received this note:

QuoteYou've been bumped down to 1k because other players think there are too many magickers.  Sorry about that, I know it's the loss of a lot of great roleplaying effort to get up to where you were in karma level.

PS.  If there are too many desert elves we may have to take that last point away as well.

So, should I cut and paste that 500 times and remove everyone's karma, or do you think Dakurus' idea of everyone stepping back and checking to make sure they're not part of the problem, is actually a more reasonable solution?

Why does it have to be an either-or, Vanth? What about special apps, people applying for roles that are already filled by a whole lot of people? Are there currently any magickers of -any- kind, who don't actually have the karma to play what they're playing, and were given permission to play it anyway?

If there is, perhaps a moratorium on magicker special applications is a reasonable solution. Just tell us "hey folks, if you have the karma, great. If not, please don't send in special apps for magickers for now, thanks."

Because - as far as I can tell, MOST of the IC attitude toward magickers is exactly that - IC. From my observation, it is totally and completely IC, sensible, logical, practical, and even discussing WHY it is, would be divulging IC plotline information that some people might not have.

I want to keep my karma.

Thank you.

Real Armageddon players don't need karma.

QuoteYay! More staff punishing the people who want to play mundanes. I believe you stated in your post that you would do this to everyone and people were volunteering to give up karma if it would end the magicker flood. I think what you probably should have said (and this would have been more honest) is: I'm sick of you all bitching, shut up or I'll take away your Karma. Beatings will continue until morale improves.

You know what, take my karma too. Someone else said they would give up karma if their character got the skills of a 10 day old. Did you do what he was requesting or just take his karma because he is bringing up a real problem you disagree with.

You have missed the point.

How do you see this as punishment?  The people who offered and volunteered karma worked very hard to earn it, and are completely serious (to my knowledge) about bringing mundanity back to the game, so serious, as a matter of fact, that they are willing to sacrifice something that has, in many cases, taken YEARS to accrue.

We are not punishing them, we are taking them seriously, and noting that they are truly wanting to help the game at the cost of something that they have worked very hard for.

I'm not punishing anyone.  If your offer of giving up your karma wasn't serious, just say so and I'll give it back.

Jeez, some of you guys are seriously paranoid.

Quote from: "Elgiva"I want to keep my karma.

Thank you.

I want to keep the trust I've earned from the staff by playing, in a realistic manner according to the docs, a game I love and dedicate  most of my free time to. I worked for years to earn that trust, and would hate for it to be taken away.

But race/guild options shouldn't necessarily equate with that trust.

-WP urges everyone to stay cool. Such a loaded issue could easily erupt into flaming, and that's not what we need here.

How big a percentage of ordinary elementalist special apps have been rejected in the past year? The problem is not just psionicists, it's the fact that the PC population is leaning closer and closer toward having mundane characters as an actual minority. I don't think we're there yet, those who claimed that magickers are numbering 75% are obviously exaggarating, but I know that at least one area of the game literally has more magickers than mundanes at this moment.

Of course one can argue that an increase in special characters is to be expected as the playerbase gradually earns more karma. This increase, however, is not exactly steady and linear. It's clear to any established player here that the number of non-mundane characters sky-rocketed around the time of the announcement, and have been increasing ever since, to the point where a lot of the players are finding the game unappealing, especially because we feel (not necessarily correctly, but this is the impression some get) that the staff is doing nothing about it, or actually tries to shut up those who mention it. I don't speak for everybody, but I know I'm not alone with my opinions, as is evident.

I think we're beyond the threads where half of the playerbase is claiming that magicker numbers are too high and the other half claims that it's a lie. Noone seems to be doubting or denying it anymore. It's so obvious no matter where you play, no matter what you play, that you can't squint an eye without seeing magickers and sorcerers and mindbenders, or the effects of their increased numbers.

I just submitted a special app for an elementalist character, because I want to be prepared for the day when Zalanthas becomes a world where mundanes are very rare and mysterious.

Know too, though, Shalooonsh, that some of us didn't "work for our karma".  I know I certainly didn't.  That makes the karma seem like an end in itself, and for me it definitely wasn't.  I would have been happy to never have had a single point of karma.  In fact my twinkiest moment ever came because I got magicker karma and decided to try, oh...probably about 15000 or so permutations of 3-letter-words (with vowels) to discover one of the reach words.

And I did discover it, and I laughed when Halaster sent me the "I caught you" email.  I just didn't care, because I don't care about karma.

-bb#4 thinks good roleplay is the best reward for good roleplay.

Quote from: "Shalooonsh"

You have missed the point.

How do you see this as punishment?  The people who offered and volunteered karma worked very hard to earn it, and are completely serious (to my knowledge) about bringing mundanity back to the game, so serious, as a matter of fact, that they are willing to sacrifice something that has, in many cases, taken YEARS to accrue.

We are not punishing them, we are taking them seriously, and noting that they are truly wanting to help the game at the cost of something that they have worked very hard for.

BS. Everyone here who has given up karma is already playing a mundane. They didn't need to lose their karma, they were volunteering to if that's what it took to fix the game.

What you have done instead is strip the karma from everyone who volunteers in an attempt to intimidate everyone into shutting up. The people who are the problem (ie: The magickers) aren't going to volunteer to give up their karma because they like playing magickers and don't see themselves as a problem.

Stripping the volunteers of karma changes nothing as you aren't changing anything about magickers.

Edit to reply to Vanth's post: I'm serious. I have no clue if I have any karma or not but if I do take it. If people giving up karma is what it take to make you realize that we are serious about this being a problem then take all that you want. The email address on my forum and my arm account should be the same if you need that to help find me. If not PM me and I'll give you my account name.

Perhaps a player - staff meeting is in order?

and yeah I agree with Elgiva. I've been playing since early 2006, I've had karma since mid-2006, and I haven't had the opportunity to use any of it yet. I'd love to play a magicker, or desert elf, or a desert-elf magicker for that matter. I also don't think "too many magickers" is a problem. I simply disagree with the docs which state that magicks are rare and mysterious.

Either the staff needs to MAKE them rare and mysterious (since they are the only ones who can do that), or they need to change the docs. Players shouldn't have to sacrifice karma points for this at all.

Quote from: "Lizzie"I simply disagree with the docs which state that magicks are rare and mysterious.

Is this because you think there SHOULD be a ton of magick?  Or because you see that as things are, that statement is not actually the case?  God, I hope it's the latter.  The former attitude, in abundance, frightens me more than Islamofascist terrorists and will truly wreck the game.

*shudders*

I agree with Mansa and Lizzie.

SOMETHING needs to be done.  I would like to hear a clear and concise answer as to what is going to be done in this matter.  I think we as the players who feel we are losing the game that we loved deserve at least that.  We have spent countless hours as the staff have, but unlike the staff we have no power to make a decision on the situation.

I think those that do have that power should present their intentions clearly and steps to change the docs or steps to erradicate the HUGE increase of magicker involvement in a game that has been packaged to its players as low fantasy for years.

You may scoop up my bowl of M and Ms or take one piece of candy at a time, either way - my fucking candy is still gone!

Vanth, as long as there's a note on my account that says "this player has offered to give up her karma in order to promote mundane roleplay, not because we no longer trust her with this level" then that is cool. I am down with that. I got all my karma playing mundane roles, I'll stick to playing mundane roles until we don't have an issue anymore.

Can we get a running tally of the karma donation pool? That would make this fun.

Come on, folks, let's give up 100 karma today! We can do at least that!

You can go ahead and take all of mine away as well. Perhaps having 0 karma will bring me back to the older days when my love for rangers was at its peak. I'd much rather force myself into helping our community. Not having any other options before me will help limit my scope and allow me to focus merely on roleplaying as a mundane.

Honestly, I think this is a great idea. Count me in.

Vanth, I love you, but I believe "Karma" isn't the problem, nor part of the solution.

Quote from: "Gimfalisette"Vanth, as long as there's a note on my account that says "this player has offered to give up her karma in order to promote mundane roleplay, not because we no longer trust her with this level" then that is cool. I am down with that. I got all my karma playing mundane roles, I'll stick to playing mundane roles until we don't have an issue anymore.

Can we get a running tally of the karma donation pool? That would make this fun.

Come on, folks, let's give up 100 karma today! We can do at least that!

Quoted for truth.

Quote from: "bardbard#4"

Quote from: "Lizzie"I simply disagree with the docs which state that magicks are rare and mysterious.

Is this because you think there SHOULD be a ton of magick?  Or because you see that as things are, that statement is not actually the case?  God, I hope it's the latter.  The former attitude, in abundance, frightens me more than Islamofascist terrorists and will truly wreck the game.

*shudders*

Well drama pose of "OMG these game players are worse than actual real life terrorists" aside...

I was stating the obvious. Magicks are NOT rare and mysterious, therefore the documentation is inaccurate. It's just a fact. I personally don't think the current wave of magicks is a problem, because *I* perceive it to be an IC, In-Game BIG DEAL SITUATION that shouldn't be discussed on the OOC forum and should be handled ICLy.

I'll repeat that: I do not see this wave of magickers and the attitudes toward them, ICly, as an OOC problem. AT ALL. I see it as an in-character, in-game situation, revolving around some pretty significant in-game, in-character plotlines, and makes absolutely totally and utterly perfect IN CHARACTER sense to me.

IMHO if staff makes real attempt to lower number of magickers in game, people who enjoy play them will start to complain about it similary as you do (and perhaps even leave the game, who knows?). Yes, there is a lot of magickers in game. I guess that means that a lot of people enjoy playing them, right? (And actually, doesn't it mean that you, who complain, are not the most of playerbase, because if most people agree with you, there won't be more magickers than mundane players?) Why would you want this people to play something they don't enjoy just because you (who play mundanes, want to play mundanes) don't like it?

I like both kind of roles, karma or not. Since the announcement, I spent more time playing mundane roles than karma roles. I agree there is a lot of magick in game. And you know, I don't have trouble with it. What I have trouble with is IG-interaction, where some Obvious Conflicts are ignored. And right, that's not only about magick.

Quote from: "Alberic"

Quote from: "Gimfalisette"Vanth, as long as there's a note on my account that says "this player has offered to give up her karma in order to promote mundane roleplay, not because we no longer trust her with this level" then that is cool. I am down with that. I got all my karma playing mundane roles, I'll stick to playing mundane roles until we don't have an issue anymore.

Can we get a running tally of the karma donation pool? That would make this fun.

Come on, folks, let's give up 100 karma today! We can do at least that!

Quoted for truth.

Word.

-WP has five karma. Throw it into the pool, but let me keep the trust I've earned.

Quote from: "mansa"Vanth, I love you, but I believe "Karma" isn't the problem, nor part of the solution.

Sometimes a gesture, though not "solving" anything, is still very meaningful.

I applaud those of you making the gesture.

Quote from: "Lizzie"Well drama pose of "OMG these game players are worse than actual real life terrorists" aside...

I was stating the obvious. Magicks are NOT rare and mysterious, therefore the documentation is inaccurate. It's just a fact. I personally don't think the current wave of magicks is a problem, because *I* perceive it to be an IC, In-Game BIG DEAL SITUATION that shouldn't be discussed on the OOC forum and should be handled ICLy.

I'll repeat that: I do not see this wave of magickers and the attitudes toward them, ICly, as an OOC problem. AT ALL. I see it as an in-character, in-game situation, revolving around some pretty significant in-game, in-character plotlines, and makes absolutely totally and utterly perfect IN CHARACTER sense to me.

Word.

And sorry for the drama.

Quote from: "Cavaticus"

Quote from: "mansa"Vanth, I love you, but I believe "Karma" isn't the problem, nor part of the solution.

Sometimes a gesture, though not "solving" anything, is still very meaningful.

I applaud those of you making the gesture.

Meaningful as it maybe - in the end it will be for nothing if nothing is done.

Giving up Karma is only a stopgap measure, and many of you are letting your dislike of the way the current "face" of the game appears affect your judgement. Zalanthas has always been a world shaped and saturated by magick - the difference between now and then boils down to two main concerns. Concern number one: players with supernatural characters are not being discreet about their powers, causing their visible presence to skyrocket. Concern number two: mages have received a lot of attention (coded skills, GDB uproar) over the past couple years, which causes many to play them out of curiosity.

Solution to concern number one: those who are careless with their supernatural PCs should suffer the consequences, even if that involves staff intervention to properly reflect the virtual world.

Solution to concern number two: introduce more skills and plots that focus entirely on mundane characters and abilities, aka give the normal folks some love.

Now, why don't we all take a deep breath, relax, and remember that this is a cooperative story we tell, and intended to be for fun and enjoyment. This thread is starting to remind me of a kindergarten class where everyone's very mad at their teacher for serving chocolate chip cookies instead of peanut butter, so they start throwing temper tantrums before she can even explain that she's got another box of cookies sitting in the desk.

Honestly, the gesture seems like preaching to the choir.  The people playing mundanes, who believe there are too many magickers in the world already, give up the ability to play magickers... What changes?  Were these people playing high-magick roles?  I highly doubt the players that are being complained about, players who play one magicker after another, are giving up their karma, or their ability to continue playing the types of characters that are being complained about.

If they are not part of the problem, how can their gesture be part of the solution?

You're welcome to take mine off as well, should you like, but it would hardly matter if you did or didn't as I don't use it and have no interest in using it at all anytime soon as I have more ideas for mundane roles then I do for non-mundane ones.

Screw that, strange shadow. If they want their peanutbutter cookies that bad, let them break into the teacher's desk. And while they're explaining that to the principal, I'll be lovin on them chocolate chips.

I think the "volunteers" should re-think what they just committed to =).  What they said about taking away their karma was meant to be "take mine if you take others' karma too."

Here is what I think are some nice serious options:

Karma Point Regeneration OptionS
Staff raises the karma limit your character can have instead of the karma amount.  Karma gets added like 1 per 3 months, until you reach your current limit.

Hard-Coded Limit on # of Certain Guild/Classes
Code something to track the number of hours played per mundane, per lower tier magicker, per higher tier magicker, per sorcerer, and per psi.

If # of hours/week is more than a certain amount, player is unable to pick class/race, and gets a notification during character creation regarding roughly how high the concentration is.

In addition, also have special app slots for each of it (like 1 reserved for a spec app sorc, 1 for spec app psi, 3 for spec app high tier magicker, etc.)  These get used up when the staff sees a special app they like.

Counter Role Offers/Plotlines
Depending on where the concentration of players is at, the staff could offer particular roles which could suitably counter the higher concentration roles that are existing.  In other words, too many gemmers and you may see a role opening for a Tuluki Legion Assassin or a Nilazi.  Maybe a modest starting skill boost for those roles as well.  Or, certain plotlines could revolve around magickal diseases and things like that.

Or we could have another Tuluki/Allanaki war (teh awesome, people would go mundane for that).

- Ktavialt

Quote from: "Shalooonsh"The people who offered and volunteered karma worked very hard to earn it, and are completely serious (to my knowledge) about bringing mundanity back to the game, so serious, as a matter of fact, that they are willing to sacrifice something that has, in many cases, taken YEARS to accrue.

We are not punishing them, we are taking them seriously, and noting that they are truly wanting to help the game at the cost of something that they have worked very hard for.

If this is a shared viewpoint amongst the Imms, and if this demonstration helps the current game recover from a problem that has been growing for years, then I am more than happy to volunteer my magicker karma as well.

For the good of Armageddon, present and future.

-LoD

This is the best thread on the GDB in months. Super bonus drama points! :twisted:

As for the subject at hand:

Some friends suggested that sorc/psi only be learned IC and not be app'able period. I like that idea.

I attribute the current problem to: everyone thought Arm 1.0 would end fast, so many magickal "end of the world" plots developed, and some mundane PCs were... enhanced. Then Arm 2.0 was delayed indefinitely. This had a domino effect in that the world was left with many magickal plots and players, and now we're dealing with the aftermath. People kept making more magickers or magick-friendly mundanes to be involved in the plots and to increase their survival in an ever increasingly magickal world.

If I could change any one thing it would have been the announcement that Arm 1.0 was ending, but my time machine is in the shop. Nevertheless, the imms are starting to restrict magickal/psi roles again, and that leaves it up to the players to rein things in on our beloved game gone wild.

Quote from: "Vanth"I'm not punishing anyone.  If your offer of giving up your karma wasn't serious, just say so and I'll give it back.

Jeez, some of you guys are seriously paranoid.

I am serious if you will seriously drop 98% of players or more, to 1 karma or lower.  (A condition I put in my first post!)

Quote from: "Ktavialt"Karma Point Regeneration OptionS
Staff raises the karma limit your character can have instead of the karma amount.  Karma gets added like 1 per 3 months, until you reach your current limit.

Or we can make it as, you regen one karma per month but it starts after your character dies.

Quote from: "Coat of Arms"How big a percentage of ordinary elementalist special apps have been rejected in the past year?

I won't go back a whole year, but I think 6 months is a reasonable time frame.  About 33% of 1-5k apps are accepted, with more like 10% acceptance on 6-8k apps, but that's a bit deceptive if you don't know the actual numbers.

Number of accepted non-mundane classes by karma level over 6 months

Vivadu & Ruk                                    9    
Krath & Whira                                   9      
Drov & Elkros                                   3      
Void                                            1      
Sorc                                            3      
Psi                                             1      

Total                                          26
Number of these currently alive:                7

I have pretty much grown so tired of it that I no longer have much incentive to play. Some people I've talked to seem to feel the 'epic' nature of the end is hardly worth playing in. I would absolutely give up my karma... in fact, I probably already have.

If I wanted a high-fantasy setting, I'd play any of the other 1000 muds out there. Thanks, but no thanks.

Quote from: "Ghost"

Quote from: "Vanth"I'm not punishing anyone.  If your offer of giving up your karma wasn't serious, just say so and I'll give it back.

Jeez, some of you guys are seriously paranoid.

I am serious if you will seriously drop 98% of players or more, to 1 karma or lower.  (A condition I put in my first post!)

We have over 10k accounts, so I believe that condition is met.  :wink:

Quote from: "psionic fungus"Honestly, the gesture seems like preaching to the choir.  The people playing mundanes, who believe there are too many magickers in the world already, give up the ability to play magickers... What changes?  Were these people playing high-magick roles?  I highly doubt the players that are being complained about, players who play one magicker after another, are giving up their karma, or their ability to continue playing the types of characters that are being complained about.

If they are not part of the problem, how can their gesture be part of the solution?

There are demonstrations every year by people who are not "part of the problem" in an effort to make the world listen to their viewpoint.  While many of the people watching may sympathize and already support them, there are others who may listen simply because people have organized and engage in self reflection.

There are people who might view the action with more weight than the words which normally precede it.  The Imms want to provide you with the best game they can.  And if this demonstration makes them look any more closely at current and future game policy, plans, or ideas, then it's a worthwhile endeavor.

And it might be incorrect to assume that everyone choosing to give up their karma neither want, nor appreciate, that choice.

-LoD

Quote from: "Vanth"

Quote from: "Coat of Arms"How big a percentage of ordinary elementalist special apps have been rejected in the past year?

I won't go back a whole year, but I think 6 months is a reasonable time frame.  About 33% of 1-5k apps are accepted, with more like 10% acceptance on 6-8k apps, but that's a bit deceptive if you don't know the actual numbers.

The real question is how many non-mundane vs mundane characters there currently are in the world who last more than 2 ic days. That's the % that matters as it tells us how many characters are lasting long enough to make an impact on the game and consistently interact with other characters.

Also, thank you to the staff for finally actually talking to the player base about this issue instead of just locking the thread.

Look, people, I take this voluntary de-karma-ing seriously, because we are not going to change the karma system in any way that requires new code, as all our coding energies are going to the new game.

Nor do I think special apps are the problem.  Most of the people playing karma classes are using their actual karma that they have.  And I don't think we're awarding karma any more than we used to, it just that there's usually more people who don't use their karma.  But with the end of the game coming (but not in sight yet, folks) more people want to try what they've never tried before, because it might be their last chance.

I don't want to take away their candy once they've already got it, 'cause that would be mean.  But if other people want to go on a diet and forego candy, I'm more than happy to support that.

Quote from: "Vanth"

Quote from: "Coat of Arms"How big a percentage of ordinary elementalist special apps have been rejected in the past year?

I won't go back a whole year, but I think 6 months is a reasonable time frame.  About 33% of 1-5k apps are accepted, with more like 10% acceptance on 6-8k apps, but that's a bit deceptive if you don't know the actual numbers.

Code Select Expand

Number of accepted non-mundane classes by karma level over 6 months

Vivadu & Ruk                                    9    
Krath & Whira                                   9      
Drov & Elkros                                   3      
Void                                            1      
Sorc                                            3      
Psi                                             1      

Total                                          26
Number of these currently alive:                7

Did you say 1000-5000 apps every half year?

Seven magickers plus however many are in that haven't had to special app and play regularly.

1-5k means 1-5 karma point classes/races

Quote from: "a strange shadow"Giving up Karma is only a stopgap measure, and many of you are letting your dislike of the way the current "face" of the game appears affect your judgement. Zalanthas has always been a world shaped and saturated by magick - the difference between now and then boils down to two main concerns. Concern number one: players with supernatural characters are not being discreet about their powers, causing their visible presence to skyrocket. Concern number two: mages have received a lot of attention (coded skills, GDB uproar) over the past couple years, which causes many to play them out of curiosity.

Solution to concern number one: those who are careless with their supernatural PCs should suffer the consequences, even if that involves staff intervention to properly reflect the virtual world.

Solution to concern number two: introduce more skills and plots that focus entirely on mundane characters and abilities, aka give the normal folks some love.

Now, why don't we all take a deep breath, relax, and remember that this is a cooperative story we tell, and intended to be for fun and enjoyment. This thread is starting to remind me of a kindergarten class where everyone's very mad at their teacher for serving chocolate chip cookies instead of peanut butter, so they start throwing temper tantrums before she can even explain that she's got another box of cookies sitting in the desk.

I don't believe your final paragraph is true at all. This is the most mature i've seen the 'face of the playerbase' on the GDB in years.

There -is- a tangible problem with the game right now. If you do not see it, you choose to not see it.

I agree with Lizzie, that these plots are IC, that these problems are IC, that the end of the world is IC, and that the abundance of Magick which has shaped the world and all that horse crap is IC.

OOCly, i am not enjoying this game. I do not really want to play it anymore, and not because i'm a whiny bitch, but because there has been a physical shift of players from roleplay to coded-power. It has turned into a high-fantasy bolt war. Magickers do not care to fear other elements. Mundanes have kinda thrown up their hands saying "Whatever." Magickers wander around the Tablelands frying skeet when they don't even need to eat the food. It has turned into a game of powergaming, in preperation for the end days, where those with the -most- coded power will be able to wrestle their way to the top of a mound of bodies and wave a white flag, and say "I did it! I left my mark that will carry over into Armageddon 2.0". And I will not be surprised, if, by that point, the character actually shouts that in sirihish, in game.

Quote from: "mansa"How to fix it?  - End the world now, this weekend.  Take a break.

You're pretty much guaranteeing an unacceptable amount of attrition from players.  People are going to go elsewhere and find other things to do.  A solid number won't come back for awhile, never hearing about Arm 2.0's re-release.  Some will never come back.

If there are too many magickers, make more templars to kill them!   :twisted:

If we remove karma in order to solve the magicker problem (which I think is not so bad as to deserve this drama), what happens to the non-magickal karma options? There are several interesting, detailed races available via karma which come without magickal leanings. It would be a shame for those to be swept up in the "solution."

I cherish and am proud of the fact that I earned 3 karma points' worth of staff trust in a year of playing. I "worked hard" in the sense of giving my roleplay my all, contributing to the game world, and working cooperatively with the staff. I love ARM. I appreciate the staff and the playerbase as a whole.

I just want to see less magick and more mundanity.

So I'm giving up my karma as a form of peaceful demonstration.

I wanted to try playing a Vivaduan again sometime, but I'm OK with not doing that, if my karma donation contributes positively to awareness and discussion and decision-making on this issue.

Then I was wrong, the problem must be too many players having karma along with too many players wanting to play non-mundanes. That is, of course, assuming one believes the whole thing to be a problem.

It's hard for us to tell what the exact cause is, other than the obvious end-of-the-game state. I think it's established now, though, that we don't like it much. It's pretty darn difficult for a bunch of mundanes to do anything about a bunch of magickers that they barely out-number, so while I would love for the whole thing to be handled ICly, I just don't see that as a possibility.

Is the staff willing to acknowledge the problem, or openly disagree with it? I've spoken with one staff member about it recently and I've come to the conclusion that what looked to me like favorism toward magickers is really just the result of some magicker players being really good at working in cooperation with the staff to further plotlines. It doesn't change the fact that there are just too damn many of them.

Why is this a problem? Aside from the obvious, where players feel jarred and annoyed that they're seeing so many magickers, it has a direct influence on the mundane playerbase. If there are 200 active players who play enough to have any kind of impact on the game world, and 20 of them are magickers, it's not that bad. There are players left to fill the clans, the cities, the taverns, the alleys. What happens when it goes from 180:20 to 150:50? Perhaps even 120:80? We're probably not quite there yet, but I think it's the direction we're headed. There's more to it than players being annoyed that part of the documentation is no longer true. Those same players are having less fun because there's now 2 players in their clan instead of 4 or 5. Because the taverns are often empty during peak hours. Because there are areas that are now all but abandoned, or practically taken over by magickers. Because the high number of non-mundanes mean that there are less mundanes to fill a game that has always struggled to fill every clan and every settlement.

Quote from: "Alberic"The real question is how many non-mundane vs mundane characters there currently are in the world who last more than 2 ic days.

The problem with that demand is that player stupidity probably accounts for 90% of character deaths.

This thread is turning into noise rather than reasonable discourse, but hopefully some issues get cleared up and people cool their heads a little. It might be healthy for a lot of us to simply ignore the GDB and play the game (responsibly).

Peace,
Shadow

Quote from: "Vanth"Look, people, I take this voluntary de-karma-ing seriously, because we are not going to change the karma system in any way that requires new code, as all our coding energies are going to the new game.

Nor do I think special apps are the problem.  Most of the people playing karma classes are using their actual karma that they have.  And I don't think we're awarding karma any more than we used to, it just that there's usually more people who don't use their karma.  But with the end of the game coming (but not in sight yet, folks) more people want to try what they've never tried before, because it might be their last chance.

I don't want to take away their candy once they've already got it, 'cause that would be mean.  But if other people want to go on a diet and forego candy, I'm more than happy to support that.

Then what is the problem?  Why is it that if there is an RPT mundanes have to sit at the
sidelines while the x-men magickers of death kill everything at a distance, or before a
mundane can do anything. Why not just make all rpts Magicker only with NPC soldiers?
That is the direction I think the game is going right now. But if nothing is going to be done, then
why bother?

Quote from: "Akoto"If we remove karma in order to solve the magicker problem (which I think is not so bad as to deserve this gigantic fuss), what happens to the non-magickal karma options? There are many very interesting, detailed races available via karma which come without magickal leanings. It would be a shame for those to be swept up in the "solution."

Presumably those of us giving up all our karma could special app karma required mundane roles. Who knows, staff may even look favourably on those apps as they will be different from the psi-of-doom apps they probably get daily. It just means we don't get to auto-make them and have to go though the sometimes 1month special app process.

Quote from: "Ghost"

Quote from: "Ktavialt"Karma Point Regeneration Option
Staff raises the karma limit your character can have instead of the karma amount.  Karma gets added like 1 per 3 months, until you reach your current limit.

Or we can make it as, you regen one karma per month but it starts after your character dies.

I suppose I'm not understanding this, but are you suggesting that while you have an active character it doesn't regen?  That kinda blows for consistent players cause they won't be able to play the karma classes unless they take a break from Arm for awhile.  Or maybe the karma-o-meter doesn't toll when playing a non-karma race/guild?  If that were the case, and it was 1 karma a month, play a warrior for 8 months and you'll already have sorc karma.  That doesn't seem right.

Anyways, might as well combine this with extra stuff...

Update Fighter-Type Abilities - Each elementalist has dozens of spells at his disposal, but a warrior has bash, rescue, guard, flee, and parry.  :( More diversity?

Magickal Backfiring - Every time a spell is cast, there is a chance that somewhere nearby, a PC may get some sort of curse/malady.  Particularly good with making people hate gemmers.

Incognito Curse-Like Spells - One reason people don't hate magickers is because magickers have difficulty being the evil conniving semi-demons they are supposed to be. Magickers have this difficulty because any serious attempt to screw someone = dead magicker, unless its of course your 1 spell instakill magicker in the wastes.  Promote more inner city magick terror by having spells which could potentially be cast by a gemmer, without the particular gemmer or even element type being detected.

Quote from: "axismundi"

Quote from: "mansa"How to fix it?  - End the world now, this weekend.  Take a break.

You're pretty much guaranteeing an unacceptable amount of attrition from players.  People are going to go elsewhere and find other things to do.  A solid number won't come back for awhile, never hearing about Arm 2.0's re-release.  Some will never come back.

Yes, I've been saying that the game should end for a while now.
( http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=26283 )

However, some great players have already left.  Some players are going to leave once their current character dies.  New players will come along.  New players -have- started playing over the last two months.

I believe ArmageddonMUD is so addictive, that people won't give up the game for good.  I believe that with the start of Armageddon2.0, you'll have a playerbase of mid-20s, and it will take another year for it to get back to the mid-60s.  I believe this game is 'good' so that we'll get new players, and even the old players will come back.

You could say that I've left.  I haven't played since my last character died.  I feel the urge to play still - but I'm waiting for a better moment.  Moreso, I'm waiting for the current 'major characters' of the game to die off, because it's not fun to play with the same people again and again.

I believe that the game needs a purge of the current way of playing the game.  I believe the game has a feel to it - where you need to be more powerful than others - that overpowers the feeling of storyline generating.  I think this current way of playing the game is focused too much on destroying everything.

When the staff say they will not code anything new for the game, or build anything new - that's when I feel the game is stagnate.  Because it is stagnate at that point.

Quote from: "Ktavialt"
Magickal Backfiring - Every time a spell is cast, there is a chance that somewhere nearby, a PC may get some sort of curse/malady.  Particularly good with making people hate gemmers.

Incognito Curse-Like Spells - One reason people don't hate magickers is because magickers have difficulty being the evil conniving semi-demons they are supposed to be. Magickers have this difficulty because any serious attempt to screw someone = dead magicker, unless its of course your 1 spell instakill magicker in the wastes.  Promote more inner city magick terror by having spells which could potentially be cast by a gemmer, without the particular gemmer or even element type being detected.

Wait wait. In a thread about there being too many magickers and that they are too powerful you are seriously suggesting....making magickers much more powerful.... I think the reason people don't obviously hate magickers is because acting in anyway like you hate/dispise/mildly dislike a magicker infront of said magicker will most likely get you dead.

Quote from: "Bebop"

Did you say 1000-5000 apps every half year?

Seven magickers plus however many are in that haven't had to special app and play regularly.

1-5k=1 karma to 5 karma

Quote from: "Reiloth"

Quote from: "a strange shadow"Now, why don't we all take a deep breath, relax, and remember that this is a cooperative story we tell, and intended to be for fun and enjoyment. This thread is starting to remind me of a kindergarten class where everyone's very mad at their teacher for serving chocolate chip cookies instead of peanut butter, so they start throwing temper tantrums before she can even explain that she's got another box of cookies sitting in the desk.

I don't believe your final paragraph is true at all. This is the most mature i've seen the 'face of the playerbase' on the GDB in years.

Clarification: I said starting to remind me. There was a point in this ever-exploding thread, probably four or five pages back by the time I hit 'submit' on this post, where people were really getting hot.

QuoteThere -is- a tangible problem with the game right now. If you do not see it, you choose to not see it.

I do see it, but my point is that it has not been ignored, and in fact, from past threads on this subject, it has appeared to me that solutions have been considered and even implemented (the severe reduction of accepted special application applications, for one). The problem does still exist, and for my opinions on that, refer to my original post.

I'll recap my suggested solutions here for those who don't feel like skipping back several pages:

1) Those who are careless with their supernatural PCs should suffer the consequences, even if that involves staff intervention to properly reflect the virtual world.

2) Introduce more skills and plots that focus entirely on mundane characters and abilities, aka give the normal folks some love.

Quote from: "Ktavialt"Anyways, might as well combine this with extra stuff...

You would get burned at the stake as an imm. Nobody hates anything more on an MUD/MMO than having a character they've worked on for a long time "nerfed". I'm not going to get into mundane vs. magickal power, but suffice it say that played properly either can be very effective code-wise. The problem folks are discussing is more about ratios of mundanes :: magickers (both number of players and plots) and how the old values of fear and loathing have started to be ignored. Knee jerk gimping would only compound the problem.

Quote from: "Krath"Then what is the problem?  Why is it that if there is an RPT mundanes have to sit at the
sidelines while the x-men magickers of death kill everything at a distance, or before a
mundane can do anything. Why not just make all rpts Magicker only with NPC soldiers?
That is the direction I think the game is going right now. But if nothing is going to be done, then
why bother?

Quit your goddamn bitching and just play the game. Your sarcastic remarks will not win the staff over regarding your point of view. Maybe those magicker plots were created by the players? Did you ever stop the think that? Maybe the current population of mundane players lack the drive and personal ambition to *gasp* start something on their own, and the magicky players who are starting something on their on are, as a result, are getting support from staff members because they're *gasp* contributing to the game world with *gasp* ideas. What, you think staff create every single plot currently in the game? I think not. There are mundane plots in this game. Find them. I'm on a quest currently to create a traveling troupe of bards. I'm going to create a Zalanthan ROCK BAND. What are you doing to curb the amount of players in the game? Are you actually creating a character to support your beliefs and subsequently help this community grow, or are you just bitching for the sake of it? I abhore the statement "be the change you want to see," but enough is enough people It's time to grow the hell up.

Complaining will get us no where, so instead of this bickering lets all play mundanes and create mundane plots.

Quote from: "Gimfalisette"I cherish and am proud of the fact that I earned 3 karma points' worth of staff trust in a year of playing. I "worked hard" in the sense of giving my roleplay my all, contributing to the game world, and working cooperatively with the staff. I love ARM. I appreciate the staff and the playerbase as a whole.

I just want to see less magick and more mundanity.

So I'm giving up my karma as a form of peaceful demonstration.

I wanted to try playing a Vivaduan again sometime, but I'm OK with not doing that, if my karma donation contributes positively to awareness and discussion and decision-making on this issue.

Basically my exact thoughts as well.

These coded solutions are pointless. The game -is- ending soon. As Vanth has said, no one will be changing the way Karma works.

Clans:
Akei'ta Var
Arm of the Dragon
Bards of Poets' Circle
Council of Allanaki Mages
Elan Pah Alliance
House Borsail
House Fale
House Kadius
House Kurac
House Oash
House Salarr
House Tenneshi
House Tor
House Winrothol
Malarn Tribals
Plainsfolk
PtarKen Tribe
Red Fangs
Silt Winds
Soh Lanah Kah
T'zai Byn
Tan Muark
The Atrium
The Guild
Tuluki Nobles
Tuluki Templarate
Unclanned
Utep Sun Clan
Tribal People

I have already made the list myself. How many of these clans interact with magickers daily? Weekly? How many are friendly to Magickers? How many are friendly to Magickers, and shouldn't be?

Do the math.

And then wonder why the quality of RP has gone out the window, in favor of coded power.

I believe that Magickers -can- be good RPers. It is 100% possible. I have seen many myself that are mindblowing, even now. But when you look at the saturation of Magick, and the cheezy high-fantasy plots...Zalanthas has turned into white-noise, as Shadow put it. It is a white-noise of Magick and Magick-related plots.

I play a Magicker currently, and despite playing it well, and RPing the character well, will most likely be retiring it in favor of a more mundane role.

Actually, it sounded like he was suggesting making people more powerful...



Instead of closing the game, we could always have the apocalypse and then keep the game open. Just edit or delete a bunch of rooms in the various cities to reflect them being destroyed and then those who want to play can and the larger than normal number of magickers is explained by them being better able to survive said apocalypse. Nothing harsher than trying to survive post-apocalypse. No more cities to hide in. Just unforgiving desert.

Or maybe I'm just primed to play Fallout 3.

QuoteComplaining will get us no where, so instead of this bickering lets all play mundanes and create mundane plots.

Spoken for truth.

There's only one thing that will create a more mundane existance:

More players playing mundanes.

We don't sit up in Staffsylvania and say "Gosh, guys, lets make a magicky plot because I like magick and magickmagickmagick."  We sit up in Staffsylvania saying, "Lets see, who's giving out some awesome effort and roleplay, updating bios regularly, and sending us reports on exactly what the PC they are playing is doing or thinking?  Well, there's this person, hmm, I know precisely what they're all about, what they're going for.  I think it would be fun to support the effort and make a plotline off of it that could include other people and better the world."  

If the PC in question is a magicker, it's usually a magicker plotline.

If the PC in question is a mundane, it is 99.95% likely that the plotline/plot-arc will be mundane in nature.

Oh, and by the way, it's endlessly amusing to me (not the entirety of staff) to watch you GDB users who have PCs who are magickal bitch about how much magick there is in the game and how it never goes away.  You make me giggle for hours.

Quote from: "Shalooonsh"Oh, and by the way, it's endlessly amusing to me (not the entirety of staff) to watch you GDB users who have PCs who are magickal bitch about how much magick there is in the game and how it never goes away.  You make me giggle for hours.

Which is exactly why I'd rather have no karma at all. From here on out, I want nothing but mundanes. From here on out, I don't even want to see those options again. I want to get rid of that itch.

I have to say, the staff actually did a VERY cool and mostly mundane thing for my completely mundane character fairly recently that was really unexpected and so fun. Basically it was a one-day kickoff which started a longer plot that is still going. I didn't ask for it; I was just there and available and I guess they wanted to do it. (Yes, I sent them kudos for rocking.)

I have also proposed some mundane plot stuff to my clan imms, the kind of thing that would need a fairly large quantity of immteraction. I'll probably bug them about it more until they tell me yes or no.

And I've been running my own mundane plot things recently...you know, the kind of thing that doesn't need any immtervention.

I guess I'm just chiming in with the "be the change you want to see" thing. That's really what it's all about. Play mundanes, run mundane plots, ask the imms to help you run mundane plots.

Consider yourself itchless.  Your karma points have been added to the collective pool of Ghandi-esque demonstration.

Thanks for being so brave as to sacrifice it for the good of the game.

I would like to sacrifice my karma as well. The staff should know I am good roleplayer, I do not need validation for it.

ACCOUNT NAME REMOVED BY STAFF

Man with everyone giving up their karma, I guess I'll have to hope that all the current magickers, AND my character, all die really soon. And then...

I WILL APP THE ONLY MAGICKER IN THE GAME.

Bwahahahahahahhaha

Should be fun. I just hope I have the karma for it. The only time I know of that I got any karma at all, I got one point. If I have more than that, no one's told me and I'm STILL on this same character, over a year later, so I haven't been able to check in over a year. Why doesn't anyone kill my character? I feel so neglected <sniff>

Wish granted.  Another handful of points drop into the pot.

Anyone else?

You know...I've never had a problem ignoring my karma in favor of playing a mundane myself.

And I find it much easier to play 2 mundane in a row then 2 mages...and really cannot understand how some people can play mage after mage after mage....eeewww.

Anyway....thats all I got for this thread.

And by the way, for clarification, RACES are not being removed.

Just magicker classes.

This is a sacrifice for the mundane, not a complete removal of points.

Also, each account that is sacrificing is being noted that they did so willingly, and are to be trusted at the original accounting of points.

Sweet, throw my karma into the void. *wipes off the brow* not losing the D-elf. DELETED BY STAFF is my account name.

Quote from: "Shalooonsh"And by the way, for clarification, RACES are not being removed.

Just magicker classes.

This is a sacrifice for the mundane, not a complete removal of points.

Also, each account that is sacrificing is being noted that they did so willingly, and are to be trusted at the original accounting of points.

People trust my original account notes?

/snicker

However, I still have to disagree with this current solution.  I don't believe it will fix the problem.

The problem lies with what the players want with the game.  What they feel they can get their enjoyment from.  Why they currently play the game.

This problem - as I see it - is harder to solve.

Quote from: "Forest Junkie"

Quote from: "Krath"Then what is the problem?  Why is it that if there is an RPT mundanes have to sit at the
sidelines while the x-men magickers of death kill everything at a distance, or before a
mundane can do anything. Why not just make all rpts Magicker only with NPC soldiers?
That is the direction I think the game is going right now. But if nothing is going to be done, then
why bother?

Quit your goddamn bitching and just play the game. Your sarcastic remarks will not win the staff over regarding your point of view. Maybe those magicker plots were created by the players? Did you ever stop the think that? Maybe the current population of mundane players lack the drive and personal ambition to *gasp* start something on their own, and the magicky players who are starting something on their on are, as a result, are getting support from staff members because they're *gasp* contributing to the game world with *gasp* ideas. What, you think staff create every single plot currently in the game? I think not. There are mundane plots in this game. Find them. I'm on a quest currently to create a traveling troupe of bards. I'm going to create a Zalanthan ROCK BAND. What are you doing to curb the amount of players in the game? Are you actually creating a character to support your beliefs and subsequently help this community grow, or are you just bitching for the sake of it? I abhore the statement "be the change you want to see," but enough is enough people It's time to grow the hell up.

Complaining will get us no where, so instead of this bickering lets all play mundanes and create mundane plots.

I am and have been, that is why I gave up my karma and do not care if I get it back. I play
nothing but mundanes. You can count on one hand how many non-mundanes I
have played in my near decade here. The group of players I am playing with will tell you I
stand by every word I type and do try to provide that kind of harsh, grittiness that the game
should have by word of the documentation.

You can have my karma too. I won't miss it.

I'm having too much fun playing the non-karma required options.

You've been stripped, Delirium.


"Let me see you
Stripped.
Let me see you
Make decisions
Without your
Televisions
Let me see you
Speaking just
for me."
-Depeche Mode/Rammstein

No idea if I have karma or how much, might be a point in there somewhere, but mundanes ftw. Have at it!

Someone has stored their magicker because of this thread.  (I can't say who, but they're welcome to if they want.)

See, grassroots campaigns really can make a difference.

That was me, as I previously stated I would.

Mundane all the way baby.

Reiloth, you are my hero. You totally rock. I hope we get to play together again someday like we did way back.

Take whatever meager 'gicker karma I may have, too.

It should be said there are places to play in game where the documents state that magick must be hated, feared, and disliked, and is therefore extremely rare.  Go play there.  There seems to be a rich plot going on that has absolutely nothing to do with magick.  If you want incanters out of your hair, go to where other people will keep 'em off of you.

Take mine, too. It's dusty.

Quote from: "Gimfalisette"I guess I'm just chiming in with the "be the change you want to see" thing. That's really what it's all about. Play mundanes, run mundane plots, ask the imms to help you run mundane plots.

Combined with the magicker community not treating each other like one big happy family (the exceptions know who they are) without any developmental RP to build the relationship, or history that explains it. The other day I saw two mages meet for the first time and literally five minutes later one asked the other "I can has magick itemz lol!1!!1" Now that's not verbatim, but come on. If one of them had been a Nilaz I'd have paid Krath's player to fly to each of their RL homes in turn and slap them in a triangle choke.  :lol:

Take my point(s) of 'gicker karma, too. Account name is EDITED BY STAFF.

When I started playing nine years ago, I can say, without a hitch, it was about five or six years until I saw any magick. In fact, I don't remember seeing any, even with gemmed, until my first magicker, about two years ago.

As far as hearing about it goes, that was almost equally unlikely.

Now, I can't go out without hearing about it. I'm done.

You're welcome to my karma. I want to see a low fantasy world again, where magick inspires terror and psionicists are hunted to their sorry end if they ever let on.

Ourla, Aruna, and WWYD done.

Quote from: "Shalooonsh"The simple and pure fact of the matter is this:

There are so many mages in the world right now because, right now, people are choosing to play mages.

While I agree with the majority of your post, I'd like to point out something here. I honestly think that a lot of people are choosing to play mages these days because playing a mage in certain groups tends to mean:

a) More plots available.
b) More acess to staff and PC resources to further your own plot ideas.
c) Far more end of the world action.
d) Far more fancy glittery things like code snippets, magick trinkets, etc.

While those aren't enough to make me want to store my character and roll up a mage just so I can feel unique and looked-after by admins, it does sometimes feel like the only way to get 100% truly mundane plots going on in mundane clans is to create them yourself, run them yourself, and hash it out with your respective clan imms.

Which is fine for me, I don't mind it, but I could see why a lot of players simply wouldn't want to put forth the effort of starting mundane stuff when so many of the game's most interesting and convoluted plots are all magick-centric.

Edit: Just to clarify, this wasn't a slam at Shal or any other admins, I'm just trying to point out that I believe "people choosing to play mages" is mostly due to the fact that the large amounts of mage PCs and the admin-driven plots they're involved in make mages FAR more attractive and interesting to play to someone that's bored to tears with their current role.

Take my magicker karma/options as well.

Also, the Soh Lanah Kah are a desert elf tribe that's fairly known for their hate of magickers and accept none into the tribe. ..If anyone needs a new mundane role to try.

Quote from: "Hot_Dancer"Take my magicker karma/options as well.

Also, the Soh Lanah Kah are a desert elf tribe that's fairly known for their hate of magickers and accept none into the tribe. ..If anyone needs a new mundane role to try.

Edited for IC info. But basically, yes, i wish there comes a day where SLK truly do hate magickers again. I think they are afraid to, because of the sheer volume of magickers in other tribes.

Also, everyone dropping magicker karma is frigging awesome. i wanna buy you all drinks for making efforts to save this game, no matter what people say about it not helping. It is helping. It is a small step in the right direction, damnit.

While I don't have anything else to add to the thread, I want to say how proud I am that the playerbase is standing together to improve the game. Kudos all around, boys and girls.

-WP glows inside.

Ooo! Does this mean there'll be non half-elves for me to talk to in Tuluk?

SQUEE.

I think I started playing about 7 years ago. Magick was far, far rarer back then it seems to me. Psionicists were virtually unheard of. I played for two years straight in the Guild and we had 3 magickers in the clan during that whole period (none of which rose to any position of rank or gained much trust). Now I don't recognise the game anymore sometimes and it frustrates me. I know that things evolve and change over time but I think we're losing some of the things that made Arm great. I also know I'm part of the problem right now and I'm thinking about changing that shortly but I'll start with cashing in my 8 karma. If it's a step towards getting that kind've world back where magick was rare and feared then it's a step in the right direction.

Boggis - you're awesome.

Adding my mage options to the pot.

Quote from: "bardess"And when they are walking around asking about two-handed swords (to steal and example from someone else)

I had that copyrighted by the way....  :?  

But yeah, I completely agree with all this. If I even had enough karma points to get me a magicker, I'd give 'em up.

I am hopeful that this thread will spark some IC solutions to this problem.  As a player who has always and will always play mundanes I think it would be wonderful if these IC-solutions were so effective they eradicated magick entirely so it didn't even exist in 2.Arm (but I know this isn't likely).

Regardless, let the bouny hunters,  vigilantes, antimagick posses and angry mobs fix this problem (instead of/in addition to) the Staff.  Long live the Great Witchhunt!

I for one don't want to see magick gone. I want it to be the stuff of mystery, rumor and legend. The sort of thing where, a year later, the story you're telling at the APM is how you -met- one and he took over your lover's body to lengthen his life span and then killed you and danced you about like a puppet for his enjoyment.

And then I want to hear you say that that's the last you've heard of ANY magicker since.

And leave us wondering.

Take my karma away too.

Thanks.

From what I can tell, here's the current list of players who have committed to playing mundanes and asked to have magicker options removed from their accounts for the present time (whilst also retaining staff trust in them):

Akoto
Alberic
aruna
bardbard#4
Boggis
BuNutzCola
Delirium
Dresan
Fathi
Forest Junkie
Ghost (who started the idea)
Gimfalisette
Hot_Dancer
Janna
Krath
LoD
manonfire
mansa
Maybe42or54
Ourla
path
Reiloth (who also retired his 'gicker)
Rhyden
Twisted Minstrel
WarriorPoet
WWYD
Yang

Kudos to you all.

I'm not even going to touch this shouting match turn into symbolism sacrifice. No good will come of commenting on it.  :roll:

Quote from: "Shalooonsh"

Quote
Oh, and by the way, it's endlessly amusing to me (not the entirety of staff) to watch you GDB users who have PCs who are magickal bitch about how much magick there is in the game and how it never goes away.  You make me giggle for hours.

Its the only reason i bitch at all. I hate hypocracy, so i do try to follow what i bitch which was on how character should think not the number of magickers. :D Still its hilarious.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I am serious though about 10-20 day mundane characters though. Its just alot easier to get into or start a thick juicy plot with someone that won't die to vestrics. The reason magickers were made easier to train was because imms wanted them to be roleplaying not trained, i believe mundanes should be no different.

Basically i want to play a character i can approach a noble with an say yeah i think i can take out amos that spit on your face last week. Most likely risking death and failure since its hard to impossible to find other mundane partners (and always has been even since i started playing).

Unfortunately plots like the above while fun are just not worth the 4+ months of my RL time i took RPing training which again is boring and often loney, just to get my character to be decent. I could special app for a  mundane character that old but its just way easier to keep making rangers who can do a bit more in the beginning or i make a magicker. Its simple, i feel its just not worth my time otherwise training other mundanes (other then indie rangers which often don't see plots) as opposed to the RP rewards i get for just training a magicker for less then a month.

This is not to say you can't start plots or kill someone or do anything without code. It is very possible and usually the only viable way of doing some things. However these aren't often the way i wish to RP it and those aren't the roles i want to play.

Clans help at least in the beginning... but well all i'm going to say is there are benifits and there are demerits esspecially if your bent on RPing a character properly. So far being in clans has made me leave for over a year or store a wonderful long-lived character. I've often come out feeling clans prevent my character from doing fun plots rather then help it.

You need to do what's best for the game. If that means taking my karma, thats fine. No need to put any notes either, i never ask for notes, you might as well put, "lost all his karma cus he pissed me off and i'm sure he twinks when we aren't watching".  You want to store my character, go for it. I won't complain or bitch or make a big scene i never have before when i stop enjoying the game for whatever reason. I spend my time where i wish, even if i lose all my karma and don't get any 10-20 day old character, i still might make another ranger. :D

No symbolism though,  i'm just a fair-weather player. So long as the game provides entertainment i'll stay, and it has so far and i'm sure it will continue, when it stops doing that i'll leave without even losing sleep.

This is a really tough decision. I'm disabled and therefore have a whole lot of time to play. The variety my options give me means a lot. That said, I suppose that variety won't count for very much if nobody else is around to play with.

So long as I'll retain my ability to play karma-required races, go ahead and remove my magicker options.

Now all of you go play in the places that need all the mundanes they can get.

I stopped reading... people are posting faster than I can read and still play the game that I love.

I'm just going to respond to a couple things...

Lizzie, you say that being exposed to something constantly means that you'll eventually stop fearing it?  No.  This is not true.  Will being exposed to scalding water make it so that eventually it will not burn?  Have your character think along these lines.  "I saw another of those filthy, disgusting magickers!  Krath, they give me the heebie-jeebies."  Your character shouldn't stop fearing them because of exposure.  They're all people of questionable morals carrying around a tactical nuke in a suitcase, as far as your character is concerned... or at least a machine gun.  Sure, maybe ONE of them can convince you that s/he isn't going to use it on you... but why should your character cease to distrust the rest of them?

And for the people saying that magickers are the uber and that they're so powerful and that's why people are playing them blah blah blah.  Not everyone is trying to get their character to survive THROUGH the endtimes.  The characters are trying to survive, yes, but the players are often enough just wanting to make an impact.  Also, not all magickers are as grossly powerful as you'd like to think... AC said something which I sympathize with.  I've never branched a magicker character as fast as you people say they can be branched.  Maybe I'm just doing it wrong?  Then again, maybe I'm just doing it right.

Quote from: "path"I for one don't want to see magick gone. I want it to be the stuff of mystery, rumor and legend. The sort of thing where, a year later, the story you're telling at the APM is how you -met- one and he took over your lover's body to lengthen his life span and then killed you and danced you about like a puppet for his enjoyment.

And then I want to hear you say that that's the last you've heard of ANY magicker since.

And leave us wondering.

Yeah, something like this would be great. I don't want to see magick gone entirely neither, personally I think it should be an option given to those who have proven themselves more than trustworthy to play one; kinda like karma except 5x harder to get. And even when gained should be closely monitored by staff. Meaning.... If some Krathi starts twinking a spell so he can finally get "nuclear meltdown" and is observed by an imm, said Krathi's death would be planned out and his magicker privileges taken.

Quote from: "spawnloser"I stopped reading... people are posting faster than I can read and still play the game that I love.

I'm just going to respond to one thing...

Lizzie, you say that being exposed to something constantly means that you'll eventually stop fearing it?  No.  This is not true.  Will being exposed to scalding water make it so that eventually it will not burn?  Have your character think along these lines.  "I saw another of those filthy, disgusting magickers!  Krath, they give me the heebie-jeebies."  Your character shouldn't stop fearing them because of exposure.  They're all people of questionable morals carrying around a tactical nuke in a suitcase, as far as your character is concerned... or at least a machine gun.  Sure, maybe ONE of them can convince you that s/he isn't going to use it on you... but why should your character cease to distrust the rest of them?

And this really isn't  that great an argument because your eyes don't burn like acid every time you see a magicker or see one working his craft.....

Quote from: "Twisted Minstrel"And this really isn't  that great an argument because your eyes don't burn like acid every time you see a magicker or see one working his craft.....

How does your character know that it won't happen the next time?  Magickers eat babies for fuck's sake!  They look at you and your hair falls out.  If they touch you, you might get a disease!  Just because it didn't happen the last time doesn't mean it won't the next time.

Quote from: "spawnloser"

Quote from: "Twisted Minstrel"And this really isn't  that great an argument because your eyes don't burn like acid every time you see a magicker or see one working his craft.....

How does your character know that it won't happen the next time?  Magickers eat babies for fuck's sake!  They look at you and your hair falls out.  If they touch you, you might get a disease!  Just because it didn't happen the last time doesn't mean it won't the next time.

This is a reasonable point. And I'm sure there are a plethora of analogies that we could come up with. Just remember as a human, elves, half elves, magickers, muls, half giants, none of them are people. Only humans are people.

But just to throw in one analogy, cause it's fun. Have you ever met someone who is deathly afraid of dogs? Complete irrational fear, sometimes based on past experience, sometimes just word of mouth. Even though you can explain how all dogs aren't the same, and what wonderful things they can do, the person just doesn't get it. Through hard work you may get them to a point with a particular dog, but if another dog walks through that door, or a dog makes a wrong move, a snap, a bark, a jump, all bets are off. And the worst is dogs aren't people, just like those nasty elves.

I'm just saying.... The presence of a person who looks and generally acts like everyone else around him.... Compared to hot scalding water.... Besides, my character's had some encounters with gemmers and the like.... I'm pretty sure that's how he'd know your hair won't fall out upon eye-contact.

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=28018

58 karma gone! We can make 100 today! Let's do this, people!

Quote from: "Ocotillo"Ooo! Does this mean there'll be non half-elves for me to talk to in Tuluk?

SQUEE.

QFT.

Elves and half-elves own Tuluk right now.  Like I said, I know of at least five half-elves in the semi-peak hours and two or three elves.  Aside from that I also know of a shitload of southerners in the north, and approximately ten honest to goodness northern humans and four of those are in leadership/semi-leadership roles.

Wtf?

Good luck finding some simple, human-to-human RP.  Although I am definitely glad to see a lot more people hanging around Tuluk, don't get me wrong.

Spawnloser lost, again, by saying:

QuoteLizzie, you say that being exposed to something constantly means that you'll eventually stop fearing it? No. This is not true. Will being exposed to scalding water make it so that eventually it will not burn? Have your character think along these lines. "I saw another of those filthy, disgusting magickers! Krath, they give me the heebie-jeebies." Your character shouldn't stop fearing them because of exposure. They're all people of questionable morals carrying around a tactical nuke in a suitcase, as far as your character is concerned... or at least a machine gun. Sure, maybe ONE of them can convince you that s/he isn't going to use it on you... but why should your character cease to distrust the rest of them?

No, I don't say that. If you had read what I wrote, instead of what you wanted to perceive I was intending to say by what I wrote, you would know that.

Will being exposed to scalding water eventually make it not burn? Of course not. BUT - being exposed to lukewarm water, and being told someone could some day turn the heat up and burn you with it, but after 5 years of dipping your feet in the water every single day, and never getting burned, could make you stop being afraid of being burned by it.

Don't tell me what my character should and should not do. You are not the staff, you have no authority to make demands on my roleplay. If you have a problem with the way I RP my character (do you even know who my character is?) , feel free to report it to the staff, and I'm sure I'll hear about it if they agree it's a problem.

I've said it before, Tuluk needs some love, give it a war or something.  I was finally started playing in Allanak for a bit and it was none stop RP, finally made me wish for the listen skill. Even its spontaneous but regular RP was RPT material to me at least, i'm that RP starved.

Thats another thread altogether though.

/derail

Quote from: "Twisted Minstrel"I'm just saying.... The presence of a person who looks and generally acts like everyone else around him.... Compared to hot scalding water.... Besides, my character's had some encounters with gemmers and the like.... I'm pretty sure that's how he'd know your hair won't fall out upon eye-contact.

This thought process is part of what's creating the problem that Dakurus' post was about.  How does your character KNOW that the next baby-eating, foul spawn-of-darkness WON'T do to you what the other didn't?

Sweet Jeebus.  You people are nuts.

*puts down his 10-foot pole*

Look on the bright side. It hasn't yet devolved to 'Your MOM is a baby-eating, foul spawn-of-darkness!'

Quote from: "Dakurus"

Quote from: "spawnloser"

Quote from: "Twisted Minstrel"And this really isn't  that great an argument because your eyes don't burn like acid every time you see a magicker or see one working his craft.....

How does your character know that it won't happen the next time?  Magickers eat babies for fuck's sake!  They look at you and your hair falls out.  If they touch you, you might get a disease!  Just because it didn't happen the last time doesn't mean it won't the next time.

This is a reasonable point. And I'm sure there are a plethora of analogies that we could come up with. Just remember as a human, elves, half elves, magickers, muls, half giants, none of them are people. Only humans are people.

But just to throw in one analogy, cause it's fun. Have you ever met someone who is deathly afraid of dogs? Complete irrational fear, sometimes based on past experience, sometimes just word of mouth. Even though you can explain how all dogs aren't the same, and what wonderful things they can do, the person just doesn't get it. Through hard work you may get them to a point with a particular dog, but if another dog walks through that door, or a dog makes a wrong move, a snap, a bark, a jump, all bets are off. And the worst is dogs aren't people, just like those nasty elves.

I'm sorta worried about the staff saying what I translate into "believe that your character believes this even though there is no rational reason for your character to believe it".  There can be coded ways to make the currently irrational belief to hate magickers very rational, one of which was my suggestion to give magickers the ability to do things incognito.  I got a fair amount of flak for it but I'm not sure if the critics considered that the addition of these "incognito" abilities can be made at a detriment to their more openly "blast blast kill kill" abilities.  Or, on the other hand, side effects harmful to the public could be added to their current abilities.

What if instead of a Vivaduan simply creating water, he would create water, but sometimes to the detriment of water sources around him or her.  Think of the accusations that could fly with that one.  Would you like being a Bynner sitting at the Gaj, while some Vivaduan's spell trumps up in his temple and it saps water from your gourd while you're sitting there drinking an ale?

What if when an Elkrosian does some energy thing, it has a chance to sap the energy of some being nearby.

Now obviously, these are coded changes, and since there is effort to put coding resources onto 2.Arm it may not be done to 1.Arm.  I understand that, so here's at least one minor way in which an elementalist can be more feared simply from Immortal-led RP.  Give elementalists dreams where they acquire greater power (new spell, new innate ability, magickal device) by doing something to the detriment of the public.*  Or another one, create a plotline which pits magickers against the mundane, such as a plotline which will increase the intensity of the sun's force in a certain area, benefiting Krathi magick used there, but of course irritating the hell out of normal people who have to go through that area (requires some small coding to modify spell intensity).

I'm sure most of us presume to be talking about Allanak since in Tuluk a magicker goes boom if he's found out.  We're supposed to hate magickers, however Templars have them on a short leash with the gems, and they use them frequently along with their mundane militiamen.  There is no reason for the Templarate not to.  They are incredibly useful, hell one makes friggan life saving water.

I like the dog analogy, but it doesn't take into account magicker usefulness.  Lets use a different (strange) analogy.  What if it was back in the early 1900's when racism in the South was more rampant than ever?  Some white people would hate black people in order to fit in, others because their grandpappy lost their "property" when they became free sixty years prior, and others for other bullshit reasons.  Anyways, racism abounded.  Now, what if it was shown time and time again that having a black person around you will increase your health and mental aptitude tremendously.  You think that racism would last?  I don't, at the most it might divide people into nice groups, but it wouldn't be a worldwide distrust and hatred.

The fearing of magickers is all bark and no bite, at least within a city.  There's no reason to fear them.  We need reasons which we do not have.  At this point, they are too useful to the city of Allanak, and generally to anyone who befriends them.  As for rogue mages, their biggest enemies are the City and its Templarate, and Templars aren't exactly the loveable scamps you only wished you could save as a mundane.

- Ktavialt

* the natural reaction I'd expect from this is "Oh god you're going to give them even more power!".  The gain should match the risk involved.

Quote from: "Lizzie"Spawnloser lost, again, by saying:

QuoteLizzie, you say that being exposed to something constantly means that you'll eventually stop fearing it? No. This is not true. Will being exposed to scalding water make it so that eventually it will not burn? Have your character think along these lines. "I saw another of those filthy, disgusting magickers! Krath, they give me the heebie-jeebies." Your character shouldn't stop fearing them because of exposure. They're all people of questionable morals carrying around a tactical nuke in a suitcase, as far as your character is concerned... or at least a machine gun. Sure, maybe ONE of them can convince you that s/he isn't going to use it on you... but why should your character cease to distrust the rest of them?

No, I don't say that. If you had read what I wrote, instead of what you wanted to perceive I was intending to say by what I wrote, you would know that.

Will being exposed to scalding water eventually make it not burn? Of course not. BUT - being exposed to lukewarm water, and being told someone could some day turn the heat up and burn you with it, but after 5 years of dipping your feet in the water every single day, and never getting burned, could make you stop being afraid of being burned by it.

Don't tell me what my character should and should not do. You are not the staff, you have no authority to make demands on my roleplay. If you have a problem with the way I RP my character (do you even know who my character is?) , feel free to report it to the staff, and I'm sure I'll hear about it if they agree it's a problem.

I completely agree with Lizzie here, there's a whole lot of completely unrelated analogies.  The difference is scalding water -actually does- hurt you.  Magickers don't, they actually are beneficial.

I also intend to RP my character in the way he would naturally react to the environment around him.  He hears from one ear during his childhood all about how nasty magickers are, except there's no real reports throughout his life that these magickers are actually baby eaters.  Not only that, he joins the militia, and what the hell is happening, but the templarate uses them to help protect the city from nasty northerners, oh and I wonder who supplies the water.  THOSE FOUL BEINGS!

All bark, no bite.

- Ktavialt

(Edited because I just realized that my post made no sense in relation to what was being quoted)

Well, crap. Now when I continue to play magickers (and I'm going to), people are going to look at me OOC and say: "There's an evil powergamer that hates Armageddon and isn't willing to sacrifice his karma for the good of the community."
Lame.
But I do respect those who gave it up. It's the old "be the change you want to be in the world" in the extreme. So good for you guys.
And when and if my current special-role magicker dies, and when and if the magicker I stored temporarily to play the special role-magicker dies, I promise to play at least five mundanes before picking up another magicker.
Because I love magickers, but I love plots and interaction more.

Quote from: "Lizzie"Spawnloser lost, again, by saying:

QuoteLizzie, you say that being exposed to something constantly means that you'll eventually stop fearing it? No. This is not true. Will being exposed to scalding water make it so that eventually it will not burn? Have your character think along these lines. "I saw another of those filthy, disgusting magickers! Krath, they give me the heebie-jeebies." Your character shouldn't stop fearing them because of exposure. They're all people of questionable morals carrying around a tactical nuke in a suitcase, as far as your character is concerned... or at least a machine gun. Sure, maybe ONE of them can convince you that s/he isn't going to use it on you... but why should your character cease to distrust the rest of them?

No, I don't say that. If you had read what I wrote, instead of what you wanted to perceive I was intending to say by what I wrote, you would know that.

Will being exposed to scalding water eventually make it not burn? Of course not. BUT - being exposed to lukewarm water, and being told someone could some day turn the heat up and burn you with it, but after 5 years of dipping your feet in the water every single day, and never getting burned, could make you stop being afraid of being burned by it.

Don't tell me what my character should and should not do. You are not the staff, you have no authority to make demands on my roleplay. If you have a problem with the way I RP my character (do you even know who my character is?) , feel free to report it to the staff, and I'm sure I'll hear about it if they agree it's a problem.

I lost?  That's cute.  Let's play this game further.  You lost by saying that I told you how to play your character, which I didn't.  I instead said that the documentation says your character should fear magickers, just like Dakurus reminded us all of.  I'm saying that simple exposure to lukewarm water now with the potential of it being turned up later, as you said, is no more valid an analogy as mine.  Our character are taught that magickers are boiling water from a young age.  Just because you came across some lukewarm water later doesn't mean that all magickers are lukewarm water.  They're all boiling water.  Remember it.

And Twisted Minstrel, your character DOESN'T know that magickers are beneficial and doesn't know if there is a horrible price down the road for those benefits.

Hopefully this means you all will stop app'ing templars too.

So I can finally get one.  :P

Quote from: "spawnloser"And Twisted Minstrel, your character DOESN'T know that magickers are beneficial and doesn't know if there is a horrible price down the road for those benefits.

Just like YOU don't know what MY character does and doesn't know?

Quote from: "spawnloser"

Quote from: "Lizzie"Spawnloser lost, again, by saying:

QuoteLizzie, you say that being exposed to something constantly means that you'll eventually stop fearing it? No. This is not true. Will being exposed to scalding water make it so that eventually it will not burn? Have your character think along these lines. "I saw another of those filthy, disgusting magickers! Krath, they give me the heebie-jeebies." Your character shouldn't stop fearing them because of exposure. They're all people of questionable morals carrying around a tactical nuke in a suitcase, as far as your character is concerned... or at least a machine gun. Sure, maybe ONE of them can convince you that s/he isn't going to use it on you... but why should your character cease to distrust the rest of them?

No, I don't say that. If you had read what I wrote, instead of what you wanted to perceive I was intending to say by what I wrote, you would know that.

Will being exposed to scalding water eventually make it not burn? Of course not. BUT - being exposed to lukewarm water, and being told someone could some day turn the heat up and burn you with it, but after 5 years of dipping your feet in the water every single day, and never getting burned, could make you stop being afraid of being burned by it.

Don't tell me what my character should and should not do. You are not the staff, you have no authority to make demands on my roleplay. If you have a problem with the way I RP my character (do you even know who my character is?) , feel free to report it to the staff, and I'm sure I'll hear about it if they agree it's a problem.

I lost?  That's cute.  Let's play this game further.  You lost by saying that I told you how to play your character, which I didn't.  I instead said that the documentation says your character should fear magickers, just like Dakurus reminded us all of.  I'm saying that simple exposure to lukewarm water now with the potential of it being turned up later, as you said, is no more valid an analogy as mine.  Our character are taught that magickers are boiling water from a young age.  Just because you came across some lukewarm water later doesn't mean that all magickers are lukewarm water.  They're all boiling water.  Remember it.

And Twisted Minstrel, your character DOESN'T know that magickers are beneficial and doesn't know if there is a horrible price down the road for those benefits.

While I agree that Magickers should always be feared, even between Magickers and Magickers, and ESPECIALLY between magickers and Nilazi, and Magickers and Sorcerors, and Magickers and Mindbenders, and etc, I agree with Twisted Minstrel in saying you do not know what his character feels or does not feel.

In general, I believe spawnloser is correct. Within the dog analogy, you should not, even after becoming comfortable with one dog and slightly overcoming your fear of dogs just -slightly-, be cool with that second dog that just walked through the door. You don't know where he's been. He might have rabies. Shit, he might have four more dogs coming with him.

Also, this topic, I believe, is officially, defunct.

Quote from: "Ktavialt"
I'm sorta worried about the staff saying what I translate into "believe that your character believes this even though there is no rational reason for your character to believe it".

There's all sorts of rational reasons for your character to believe this.  Your character isn't a modern person with a lot of education, ideals, and open-mindedness.  Your character should be ignorant, fearful, and superstitious.

We also ask you to believe that humans think elves are terrible, and vice versa.  And that both of them consider half-elves to be even worse.

We also ask you to believe that men and women are equal.

We ask you to believe these things because they are the truths of Zalanthas.

I just want to say that upon knowing the first time that Armageddon 1 is ending really soon (last announcement was in June? July? I can't really remember) and also with my heaps of IRL commitment, I had ceased playing the game for a sustantial amount of time.

When I return to the game again, I learned that Armageddon is ending..this time in a couple of months or something (not too sure..never really properly read announcements) I've decided to just play a non important, non ambitious mundane character just so that I can take part in the inevitable destruction of the Known World.

However, because of the huge gap between the time I last played and my current pc, I did notice that the common reaction between magickers and mundanes have changed rather dramatically. It is now considered normal when gemmers' attitude become very uppity - is it because of how other pcs react to them and the more slackening tolerance to the gemmer population? I don't know.  

But what I do notice is that there are more NON hostile relationships between magickers and mundanes, which leads me to wonder is it because of IC reasons that my char have not yet experienced? Or is it just because of the rather surprising increase in the numbers of magickers?

I honestly miss the times when magickers, even those residing in Allanak are considered filthy, cursed scums that are not even close to what a human should be. I also miss the times when conflicts between mundanes and magickers are more frequent. I mean, after all, the unfairness of the society - oppressive templars, corrupting soldiers and hard to please nobles - in Armageddon is what makes the game attractive isn't it?

Quote from: "Twisted Minstrel"

Quote from: "spawnloser"And Twisted Minstrel, your character DOESN'T know that magickers are beneficial and doesn't know if there is a horrible price down the road for those benefits.

Just like YOU don't know what MY character does and doesn't know?

Thing is, NOONE ever knows what someone else will do... and our characters, according to the documentation, were raised being told that you can't trust elves, that half-elves are impure and beneath notice, and that magickers are foul abominations.  If you say that your character knows that magickers are  decent people, you are going against the documentation, and that is just the way it is.

Don't be the kank-riding elf.  Remember that phrase?  Think about it and keep thinking about it.

I didn't read the whole six thousand posts. Stopped somewhere on page five.

The problem is, the people that are willing to give up their karma to keep the game balanced are probably people that will already play mundane characters because they see that that's what the game needs.

So, I'd say, if everyone whether by giving up karma or not thought really hard about making those other pc's it'd probably go a really long way.

Sorry if that was said already.

We already are, Barzalene. We already are.

Quote from: "Vanth"There's all sorts of rational reasons for your character to believe this.  Your character isn't a modern person with a lot of education, ideals, and open-mindedness.  Your character should be ignorant, fearful, and superstitious.

Okay, I get it.  I've met ignorant people, but generally for ignorance you need isolation.  After awhile, people who live together tend to tolerate each other.  Then there's the playability aspect.  It should be driven home a little better that you should be prepared for this isolation if playing a half elf.

Quote from: "Vanth"We also ask you to believe that humans think elves are terrible, and vice versa.  And that both of them consider half-elves to be even worse.

I've never seen a militiaman boot a half-elf/elf/magicker out of the Gaj or the Barrel.  Should that be allowed?  I have a nagging belief that if my character wanted that, they'd be yelled at by certain ranking people.

Also, there were fairly well known half-elf and elf Kuraci Sergeants not too long ago if I remember right.  What the heck is up with that?  So the NPCs don't follow these, rules, only the PCs?

Quote from: "Vanth"We also ask you to believe that men and women are equal.

Which is easily substantiated, their stats are equal, and you don't have any conflicting RP aspects of Zalanthas to contradict this.

Quote from: "Vanth"We ask you to believe these things because they are the truths of Zalanthas.

You know, I'd like to conform, however with the magick thing, templars use them regularly, they have their own friggan quarter, and they provide water for the militia.  I don't see the NPC soldiers complaining about what they're drinking.

With the mindset you've laid out about elementalists, it should be reasonable for a mob to go into the elementalist quarters, whack a few gemmers, and only get a light slap on the wrist by the templarate.  If not, and the templarate actually harms the commoners, then the other commoners should be revolting against the templarate, and some of the 'nakki soldiers may even sympathize and join them.  This sort of activity matches the mindset which you are portraying a lot better than the current one.

I just see a lot of do as I say, not as I do (if taking it from the mindset of the immortals creating the environment).

For once I actually agree with spawnloser.  That is, on the point of how our characters should be reacting to magickers, and that is with fear.

It's how that fear is manifested in the population that I have a huge problem with.

In my mind, a huge upsurge in the presence of magickers should manifest in ENORMOUS FUCKING MOBS OF SCARED ANGRY NORMAL PEOPLE WHO JUST WANT TO GO THROUGH LIFE WITHOUT HAVING THEIR BABIES EATEN BY FIRE AND SHADOW-WIELDING DEMONS OF DOOM!!

But that doesn't happen, because...well...I don't know why it doesn't happen.  Probably because no one has tried to rally that many people around the cause of purging magickers from the world.  You can't spew that sort of rhetoric in Allanak because magick is "accepted" by the law, sort of.  And in Tuluk, it's already the case that magickers are lynched if discovered, or quietly disappeared.  There's also the fact that in terms of relative population, things are unbalanced, and here's what I mean.

Suppose we have 200 active characters, and 10 of them are magickers.  190 to 10...that's not all that shocking a ratio.  But look again...10 out of 200 is 1/2 of a percent.  In reality, are there that many magickers in the entire game world, virtually speaking?  Supposing there are a million people on Zalanthas.  That's 50 000 magickers.  That seems like a LOT to me.  And if that's the ratio, that's fine.  It's just that we as player characters aren't able to muster up the sort of mob-like reaction to something like that.

But maybe I'm wrong.  In fact this has given me a character concept idea.

Hmm.

Feel free to take my 'gickers (if I even have any), since I wasn't planning on using them anyway.

My thoughts are pretty simple.  Armageddon is at its absolute best when it is mundane.  I loved Armageddon from the moment I stepped foot in it BECAUSE it was such mundane friendly place.  It takes normal high fantasy, bends it over, and does a number on its ass.  Yes yes yes, there is magik in Armageddon, and it certainly steers the world.  That said, the magik was always coming down from a place that was far higher than the characters.  When it did dip down to the level of the mundanes, it was an event.

I played this game a solid 5+ years witnessing only a SINGLE magiker cast... and that was a Templar casting while I was militia grunt.  My last outdoors character ran into half a dozen magikers openly casting in a couple of weeks.  The last time I touched the 'rinth (granted, this was probably 6-9 months ago) it was a bubbling pot of rogue magikers.  

Magiker plots leave non-magikers very sour and irritated people, especially in a world where magikers are tactical nukes that get better screwing around in the desert by themselves, and mundanes grow at the pace of an oak tree AND require help from other mundanes to get better.

Personally, I hope that the staff takes some of this whining and moaning to heart when making 2.Arm.  Make magik the way it used to be.  Make it a rare event that swoops in from on up high and causes shock and awe.  We don't need figher/mages, cleric/thieves, or silly D&D cliche.  Keep it dark, keep it brutal, and keep it low fantasy.

I think a defining moment came for me when I compared my earlier experiences with magiker to my later day experiences with magik.  My earliest experience with hostile magik came a solid 5+ years of playing the game.  Realize, that at 5+ years I was a solid veteran of the game.  My character was attacked by a magiker wielding a relatively low level Krathi spell.  I was so shocked that I fumbled around with my keyboard and ended up escaping almost dead... despite the fact that my character could have wiped the floor with this fellow long before he could pin prick me away with his low level casting.  I was just so unused to being set afire at the time, that I really just did not know how to respond.  I ran, terrified, told a Templar, and babbled about the event for weeks.  The event got a Templar to start a man hunt to get the culprits.  I got free ale from people I told the story too.

Fast forward to a few months ago when I was playing a very outdoorsy character.  In the course of a week or two, I ran into half half a dozen magiker mid cast (and who knows how many not casting).  While I certainly played my character all full of terror and what not, at my keyboard I was rolling my eyes and with very steady hands telling my kank to go find some other damn place to hunt.  I told people at the bar about my terrible event and got nothing more exciting than a few shrugs and some people telling me that they hate it when their hunts get interrupted my magikers.

Bah.

Some delusional staffer gave me a enough karma for all sorts of whacky magikal shit that I have no intention of playing. Some how, I feel that adding ANOTHER fucking secret mind bending noble aid to this world really just wont make me happy.  I don't need that crap.  I want low fantasy Armageddon with thieves, thugs, mercenaries, and thuggish thieving mercenaries.  You can merrily take my karma and add it to the magikal shit can.

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Good ole Naatok to the rescue, with a topic from '02. I'd been playing less than a year when I posted this thread and remember it vividly:

http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=683

-WP urges -everyone- to read and re-read naatok's post there.

I'm keeping whatever karma I have and hoping for a Nilazi.  :twisted:

It's just one of the things I want to play.  The role appeals to me.

My resentment against magick isn't for simply its prevalence, but the way it tends to take over a plot.  For instance, if you have a demon, only magick can really kill it or get to it.  Something always comes along where you need a magicker.  I should just be able to wait for the demon to come out, jump on the demon's chest, cut its heart out, and eat it to send it back to the nether realms.  Tasty fun for everyone!  Then there's the way magick tends to be a bigger, better analogue for all the mundane skills.  Simply put, my objection is in the structure of magick in the game, not magickers.

Quote from: "bardess"

Quote from: "Ocotillo"Ooo! Does this mean there'll be non half-elves for me to talk to in Tuluk?

SQUEE.

QFT.

Elves and half-elves own Tuluk right now.  Like I said, I know of at least five half-elves in the semi-peak hours and two or three elves.  Aside from that I also know of a shitload of southerners in the north, and approximately ten honest to goodness northern humans and four of those are in leadership/semi-leadership roles.

Wtf?

Good luck finding some simple, human-to-human RP.  Although I am definitely glad to see a lot more people hanging around Tuluk, don't get me wrong.

You know what. I kind of fucking hate it when people do this.

If it's not too many half-elves or elves, too many half-giants, magickers, psionicists, templars, nobles, Bynners, it's not enough.

So a few people are playing half-elves and elves in Tuluk? It doesn't mean Tuluk's being OVERRUN by the elven races, god damnit. It just means a few characters have had interest in playing those races.

Way to make a few players feel shitty about playing something they want to play.

I can understand if humans hate elves, but the vice versa thing isn't totally accurate...

Elves hate and distrust anything outside their tribe (other elves included)..unless they can easily use them for whatever purpose or to steal quality goods and services..humans tend to be the easiest and safest to manipulate. In which, they still atleast distrust them, but they may begin to enjoy said services.

Granted, it probably wouldn't be so easy if humans despised elves more frequently.

Well, that's my opinion anyways..

Just a quick note: please try to avoid casting aspersions on interactions with magickers behind which you may not know the whole story.

This isn't directed at anyone, I simply want to nip that in the bud.

Quote from: "Troicha"Just a quick note: please try to avoid casting aspersions on interactions with magickers behind which you may not know the whole story.

This isn't directed at anyone, I simply want to nip that in the bud.

<3

Quote from: "spawnloser"

Quote from: "Twisted Minstrel"

Quote from: "spawnloser"And Twisted Minstrel, your character DOESN'T know that magickers are beneficial and doesn't know if there is a horrible price down the road for those benefits.

Just like YOU don't know what MY character does and doesn't know?

Thing is, NOONE ever knows what someone else will do... and our characters, according to the documentation, were raised being told that you can't trust elves, that half-elves are impure and beneath notice, and that magickers are foul abominations.  If you say that your character knows that magickers are  decent people, you are going against the documentation, and that is just the way it is.

Don't be the kank-riding elf.  Remember that phrase?  Think about it and keep thinking about it.

I'd like to see the quote where I said my character liked magickers. It's really amazing how you've jumped to so many conclusions.... All I did in the first place was say that your comparison to the presence of a magicker and hot scalding water wasn't a very good one at all.

Anyone with complaints about high fantasy can come and play with me. My character hasn't seen 'cool stuff' since the Plainsman was out and about.

As for a 'non-mundanes I've interacted with'... well, I've been playing the character for nearly a year, and as far as I know, it's about–

An arbitrary number of templars, who don't count;
One sorceror, who was a notorious character in his time;
An arbitrary number of Allanaki gemmed war-mages during the Copper War, which I feel don't count;
One rogue wind elementalist;
One psion, who briefly poked around in his head.
A handful of scary summoned monsters during an epic army-vs-defiler battle.

Of all of these interactions, only the ones with the templar and the one sorceror really lasted more than a few minutes. Some of you must really be hitting some hot-spots, because my character is often out and about and simply isn't running into this problem. Half-elves in Tuluk I have seen a few of, but people largely treat them with complete distrust; I see more bards being treated unreasonably than half-elves, really.

So that's less than ten in a year for me. Less than one each month. Mundane havens do still exist in Zalanthas, and they're pretty much right where you'd expect them to be.

Apparently you're some unique exception.

:wink:

Wow. So much hatin'! Like many of my posts in the past, this is probably going to be long-winded, so feel free to skip ahead, I won't mind.

First of all, this post isn't going to be about magickers, or hating magickers or how magickers are taking over the world. For better or worse, I really think the topic has been beaten well and tender, and there's nothing I could add that people on every side haven't already said.

While it isn't the thread for it, it's been repeated multiple times in this thread, and I'd like to address it (Not that I'm some huge authority or anything, but it is a subject I've thought of before, a lot).

I think people, in relationship to other races, are throwing out the word hate a lot more than it needs to be. I'm fairly certain the docs don't state humans hate elves. I'm pretty sure that the majority of average joe humans don't go out of their way to make elf or even half-elf lives extraordinarily difficult. Hate implies a level of maleficence that mistrust does not. (I think I went into this in a post on half-elves once).

Anyways, hate: to dislike intensely or passionately; feel extreme aversion for or extreme hostility toward; detest.

Mistrust: to regard with mistrust, suspicion, or doubt; distrust.

While one automatically may mistrust someone they hate, this is not always the case. It is possible to hate someone and still trust them (or their motives regarding you). It is also possible to tolerate or even like (or enjoy the company of) someone without trusting them.

Considering elves are the 2nd most populous race in the Known world (or so I have been always told), and considering the sheer amount of half-elves and elves which are NPCs and merchants that most people don't bat half an eyelash toward (though they will hate on the pc standing next to them), outright malevolent hatred seems... well... not realistic. Like was mentioned, there's nothing about hating them in the docs. Mistrust? Yes. Even some scorn. But hate? Seems about as pointless as hating ceramic plates as opposed to wood because they break more easily.

Now, mistrust? That's perfectly awesome. In fact, I would go so far as to say there should be more general distrust toward EVERYONE, be it human to human, or human to elf, or anything to anything. I mean, you don't have to hate someone, or spit at someone to distrust them, it just means you're suspicious of their motives, or may imagine them to have motives that may not be beneficial toward them. We've done to death the fact that most people in the world aren't really altruistic by the definition of that word. They may be nice, but most folks won't go out of their way to be nice to people because they genuinely enjoy being nice. So why is distrusting people so hard? Sure, they may not be actively out to fuck you, but be sure, if you bend over and present an attractive target, then sure, someone should be expected to take advantage of it. Just because you're human doesn't automatically make you part of some sort of loving brotherhood of humans. Just because you're an elf doesn't make you part of the Elven Collective in which you automagically trust or like other elves. And just because you may distrust elves as a human doesn't mean you're not going to deal with them, talk to them, make use of them and be as polite as you are to anyone else you distrust on a neutral, apathetic level.

The problem seems to come in when humans (and elves) seem unable or unwilling to act in the shades of grey that the game is based on, and are thrust into a black-and-white reaction towards the world. If someone is an elf, then a human must HATE them and make their lives miserable or they LOVE them. If an elf is not nice toward another elf, then they must HATE them and oh, what a crappy elf that hates elves... uh.. right? No.

And if elves do manage to find stupid, gullible humans that seem to trust them, then it's UP TO THEM to bend them over and screw them in every way that gets them some benefit. Hell, I used to play a few elves that would be SUPER nice to humans (and other elves) in order to scam them (which they did on a continual basis), whether it be to get free stuff (with no intention of paying them back or returning the favor, or to get obscene amounts of money for really crappy things. Which they would buy. Hell, my favorite ever elven moment was selling another elf something, then turning around and telling the person they couldn't afford to buy something to drink because 'they had no money they could spend'. And the other elf believed them, took them at their word and bought them stuff to drink and party with. Anyone who -trusts- an elf does deserve to get screwed by that elf. Or should at least expect it. BUT it doesn't mean they have to throw on the hate, and seek to exterminate them, or burn them on the stake, or whatever.

Saying the above, anyone should expect the same from most HUMANS. In fact, the first thing most people should think when ANYONE they don't know is being nice to them is "What do they want from me?" It's just that humans tend to earn trust a little faster from other humans they know and that elves and half-elves, should start at a lower level. It should take far far more time to trust an elf or half-elf. But that also doesn't mean you have to pelt them with rotten fruit at every opportunity. In fact, most humans would probably 'trust' an elf they didn't know as little as a human they didn't know and probably a lot more than a human they knew who was known to screw other people over on a continual basis.

I look at it sort of as a sliding scale.

Whira's Scale o' Trust:

10 - Trusted without reservation - people you have known for years who have saved your life on various occasions, have sacrificed themselves for you in real ways that caused you to not only be indebted to them, but you KNOW they look out for your good. Best friends. Anyone you would willingly put your life in their hands. Someone you know would sacrifice their life to save you, and vice versa. Not only would you never betray them, but you know to the very core of your being that they would never, ever betray you.

9

8 - Trusted friends - People you know would go out of their way to help you, most of the time. They might not sacrifice their lives, but they'd sacrifice a good bit. You'd be VERY surprised if they betrayed you. You might even try to rationalize it. (a good starting place for most elves in relation to their tribesmates).

7

6

5 - Friends/Trusted. People you know for a while that seem to be okay. They may not stick their neck out for you, but they might help you out if you're in a bad way and it doesn't cost them much effort. You'd be fairly surprised if they betrayed you, and it might hurt a lot if they did. You enjoy spending time with them and go out of your way to keep them company.

4 - Moderately trusted.

3 - Somewhat trusted.

2 - Mildly trusted/friendly acquaintances. You're pretty sure they're not going to screw you over and you're beginning to have faith in them. You wouldn't be surprised if they did screw you over, but it might sting a bit if they did. You might not even like them that much, and you may not go out of your way to find 'em when you're bored, but they're alright company when they're around.

1 - Acquaintances. People you are pretty sure aren't out to screw you over and you enjoy spending time with them. You wouldn't be surprised if they turned around and screwed you, but you're *fairly* confident they wouldn't go out of their way to do so unless it benefited them more than continuing tolerance would.

0 - Neutral. People you don't know. You have no clue as to their true motives. They might screw you over, they might not. (most humans should probably start at this level in relation to each other)

-1 Mildly distrusted. They may seem benign but you don't really know them and they have some sort of attribute that makes them not quite right in your eyes. They might be trouble, but you aren't really sure yet.

-2  Somewhat distrusted. Not only do you not really know their motives, you may feel you never will. They are different from you in ways you consider bad or undesirable. They probably aren't useful or more trouble than they're worth to know. You wouldn't go out of your way to keep them company, but you wouldn't necessarily avoid it, especially if they're entertaining. (most humans would start out at this level toward half-elves)

-3 Mistrusted. You are actively suspicious of their motives, even if their actions appear to be benign. You wouldn't necessarily go out of your way to revile them, unless they acted in ways that made it obvious they were screwing you over, but you're pretty sure that they're just looking for a way to screw you. May still be useful, but be wary in dealings. You may not even mind their company if they happen to be around, but you certainly don't go out of your way to find it for any reason. (most humans would start out at this level toward elves. Elves would start out at this level toward everyone not in their specific tribe.)

-4

-5 Mistrusted/feared/hated. You are actively suspicious of their motives, ESPECIALLY if they appear to be benign. You go out of your way to avoid them when possible, and will only deal with them when you must. All actions on their part are potentially hostile, or even potentially lethal. You might not outright run in horror or heap abuse on them, but it's only because you are truly frightened they might do bad things to you because they didn't like you. You believe they might even be able to sense your fear, and you believe they are working against you, or at least to your detriment -even if they aren't aware of it-. (most mundanes would feel this toward magickers - In Allanak and elsewhere)

-6

-7 Loathed/Terrified. Most enemies. You are frightened of them, both irrationally and for good reason. You have reason to believe they are actively working against you, and so you actively work against them. You still would go out of your way to avoid them whenever possible, to the point of completely shunning them. You delight in their pain when it's inflicted to them and will most often want to be someone inflicting it. (most mundanes in Tuluk would feel this way toward magickers).
-8

- 9

-10 Utterly despised/Stuff of nightmares - They are your ultimate enemy. If you saw them and knew you could get away with it, you would kill them without a moment's hesitation. You actively work to create this kind of scenario. Their utter obliteration would not only please you to no end, but you'd likely throw a party if it happened and reward whoever caused their demise (if it wasn't you). You know that their very existance is not only a blight upon you, but every other being. The only way you would ever work with them is of some inordinate benefit to yourself, and once you received it, would probably destroy them and that's only if you had utterly no morals or sense of self-preservation. (most everyone would feel this toward mindbenders and sorcs).

Granted, this isn't a strict scale. You can be entertained by someone and still really not trust them or like them very much. But it gives, at least to me, a better sense of scale of trust/mistrust and fits the docs.

So.. yeah. Anyways. Keep in mind that distrust =! hate, and even hate has different levels, as does trust. Just be realistic about who you hate and who you like, and it will certainly make the world an interesting place.

<3 Whira's Luck

Quote from: "Gimfalisette"...
Ghost (who started the idea)
...

Kudos to you all.

Actually, it was Vanth who suggested the idea.
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=295710#295710

And Ghost who took up Vanth's Challenge first:
http://www.zalanthas.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=295712#295712

Quote from: "jstorrie"Mundane havens do still exist in Zalanthas, and they're pretty much right where you'd expect them to be.

Oh, the irony. :D

Quote from: "Vanth"Oh, the irony. :D

This scares me a little.  Stop it.

Quote from: "Ourla"

Quote from: "Vanth"Oh, the irony. :D

This scares me a little.  Stop it.

I mean, no one wants to play in Tuluk because it's "too nice" ...try manifesting as a magicker in Tuluk and see how "nice" it is then.

Heh. I might have to try that sometime. Roll up a Rukkian, wait for the two hour mark to pass, then freak out and hex the first poor sucker to look at me cross-eyed.
And then torture and disappearance and horrible screaming death.
Fun for the whole family!

:donates his magicker karma.

Quote from: "Twisted Minstrel"I'd like to see the quote where I said my character liked magickers. It's really amazing how you've jumped to so many conclusions.... All I did in the first place was say that your comparison to the presence of a magicker and hot scalding water wasn't a very good one at all.

Perhaps I should have said, "one's character" instead of "your character."  I in no way shape or form intended that to mean that your character does do something.  I was using it as a generic form of address as we are wont to do with the English language when speaking informally.

Now that we've gotten past that attempt to undermine my point...

I don't think my analogy (which is what it was, not a comparison) was too off.  Our characters are taught from a young age that magickers will do horrible and horrific things to you, just like sticking your hand in scalding water.  Our characters should expect to get burned when dealing with magickers.

YOUR character was taught that. YOU are probably playing a city-born-and-based character who hasn't ventured outside the city walls on a regular basis in order to deal with some very specific, long-term plotlines of recent note. Pretty much anyone who is involved with some of these plotlines would have a different take on the whole "your character hates and fears magickers you must comply with the docs and act accordingly" thing. And I'd explain further, but IT IS IC as I've said, and the IC situation pretty much puts the kabosh on the docs and tosses it into the chaos is came from. That doesn't mean we should all of a sudden like magickers. Or trust them. Or have their babies. What it means..is that..

IT IS IC.

and should remain that way.

Quote from: "spawnloser"Our characters should expect to get burned when dealing with magickers.

Yeah, but the simple fact is that with the way magick works currently, no non-magicker is ever going to get burned by a magicker if they stay on their good side.  The current system actually encourages friendliness.  This quickly wears away at what characters should expect to happen if they deal with magickers.  If they get caught, though, that's a different story.  Then, whatever society caught them does the punishing.   This is all about the theme of oppression prevalent in the game.  The problem is, we're all so concerned about representing negative oppression, we never get around to giving it a more positive spin as protection.  The system just doesn't encourage it.

Speaking only of Allanak-- if there's going to be a more substantial divide between elementalists and mundanes, I almost think that one group needs to get a legal or social boost (even if it's informal) over the other.  Right now, gemmers and mundanes have exactly the same rights (heh) and expectations under the law.  With unbiased law enforcement only a half-giant away, it's hard to make credible threats.  Commoners are afraid to harass the Templarate's pets, and 'gickers use of their powers is very strictly controlled inside the walls.

Obviously, law enforcement is tight in the City for anybody.  But if tensions actually run high between the two groups, I'd like to see somebody get messed up--or at least hassled--occasionally, without quite the usual repercussions.

Some of this could happen through social pressure as well as coded power, and that's fine.  And I don't care what group is on top, or if it varies; having recently played a wiggler, I would have welcomed either end of the stick.  Isolation is wearing, but simmering conflict is fun.

I don't think anything puts the kabosh on the documentation for the game world.  The docs are there for good reason, and I think alot of the anger that has been expressed in this thread reinforces that.

While I consider that there could be, and are, some exceptional circumstances which might lead a character to not follow the documented general expectations and reactions to racial/guild identity, the vast majority of people should be conforming to the standard conventions.

Let's look at the real world for an example.  Most 'normal' people in society would be at least suspicious of someone they knew to be a drug dealer.  Meeting such, a normal person would at the very least react with suspicion and fear, and many would probably alert the authorities.  Now, lets say that this poor normal person has his or her life saved by a drug dealer, or that the drug dealer saved that person's child's life, or donates alot of time and money into the neighborhood to help improve schools, playgrounds, businesses, housing, etc.

Would a normal, average, everyday sort of person be inclined to ignore experience?  No.  There is a reason why we consider experience to be the most profound teacher. Overcoming preconception is a monumental task, but it is not impossible.  It is just fairly rare.  

In my experience I've known people whom I considered to be intelligent, open-minded, caring individuals, who in the face of their fears, have become suspicious, back-stabbing and hateful toward the object of their fears, even if that object is a person they have known for years.  I have also seen the reverse happen.

The documentation is there for good reason and before roleplaying exceptions to it, we should all deeply consider the hows and whys of it.  I believe what the staff was referring to is what they've seen to be very little consideration before a character seems to switch-off personal and social preconceptions.  Unless I'm terribly mistaken, it is intended as more a statement of that sort of problem than anything else.

Quote from: "Little Darkness"...
Let's look at the real world for an example.  Most 'normal' people in society would be at least suspicious of someone they knew to be a drug dealer.  Meeting such, a normal person would at the very least react with suspicion and fear, and many would probably alert the authorities.  Now, lets say that this poor normal person has his or her life saved by a drug dealer, or that the drug dealer saved that person's child's life, or donates alot of time and money into the neighborhood to help improve schools, playgrounds, businesses, housing, etc.

Would a normal, average, everyday sort of person be inclined to ignore experience?  No.  There is a reason why we consider experience to be the most profound teacher. Overcoming preconception is a monumental task, but it is not impossible.  It is just fairly rare.  

...

Using this example:

You find yourself in an area where there are many drug dealers on ever floor of your apartment.

Your world view would tend to change and shift, to think that there are drug dealers everywhere, and it's a normal thing to see needles in the elevator of the building.


Now, I've been repeating myself again and again, but the problem still exists, and it's deeper than just a multitude of people playing Magickers.  It's stemming around why people even play the game itself, and what is going on inside the game itself.  What is the point of the game?

I think that's the question that needs to be addressed and reinforced within the game world.

I think we accomplished a lot yesterday and I'm a little proud, even though I didn't have any magicker karma to sacrifice myself. And although many of those who did were probably never going to use that karma to play magickers, it's still a great statement. And I'm sure it'll make a difference, along with the new special app rules, even if it takes a little while before it's noticeable. It pleases me greatly to see that this discussion was, for once, not left ignored by the staff. Thanks.

Quote from: "Coat of Arms"And although many of those who did were probably never going to use that karma to play magickers, it's still a great statement.

I think you're being mislead here. There were several players who hardly make use of their karma that gave up those priveleges. However, many players, including myself, play mages every third character, or ever other character. This is going to be a big change for us. Don't forgot the one individual who even stored their mage and had their karma removed so they could hop on the bandwagon.

I think the ramifications of this are going to be far more broad than we at first anticipated. And I think that's wonderful.

Quote from: "Reiloth"
It isn't the game I fell in love with...

Quote from: "mansa"
End the world now ... Take this dying creature out and shoot it...

Quote from: "manonfire"
If it means getting the old game back...

Once upon a time, I would have called you three a bunch of turds (well, I still might) for saying this, but these days, I completely agree.  The game now is a lot different due to the awful decision of opening the flood-gates to special apps last year.  Happily, that has since been corrected, but I think it's simply too late - the damage is done.

I'm not on staff any longer so likely don't see the whole picture now, but I will say that giving up your karma to help lessen the problem is probably not quite the right answer.  Just don't play the role if you don't want to play the role.

Even then it's just a gesture and not a fix.  And really, the problem is simply not fixable, it's too late, you can't go back to the way it was.  You can, however, work towards change in the future and making the best with the way it's become.  For example, all of you who volunteered to give up your karma in a form of protest, should form a new group of characters who all hate magick and want it to go away.  Organize, IC, and start a "movement" and get people to join your cause and start witch hunts and hunt down and destroy this "infestation".  Yes, I know, mundanes against mages isn't easy, but it can definitely be done.  Some of the bigger IC historical events were started by players, you just have to have the right leader(s) who is/are motivated, etc.  Then you simply just have to work towards it.  I know this sounds kind of like some BS a motivational speaker might say, but it really is true.  Just do it.

One of you should step up - be the next Thrain! ARRRRR!  Even though the world is going to end and there's nothing you can do about it, you can still change the way it exists until that point.

I beg to differ Halaster. It's already having a profound effect on the game. I've already noticed several new mundanes in a certain city.

Things are turning around.

This is seriously working.

I think this would be a great thing to make a videocast thingy about.

The Day the Players Rebelled!

Quote from: "Coat of Arms"The Day the Players Rebelled!

I prefer something to the effect of "The Day the Players Unified." I mean hell, this is probably one of the only times where we've really come together as a community and stood for something.

Quote from: "Coat of Arms"I think this would be a great thing to make a videocast thingy about.

The Day the Players Rebelled!

Were not gonna take it! No we ain't gonna take it! Were not gonna take it
ANYMORE!!!

To this, I simply say:


Win.

I gave up my karma to rid myself of the urge. If it doubles as some sort of forceful statement, that's fine too.

This is actually a very inspiring thread. I was sort of joking in my previous sentiments..but the more I see how much you would all like magicks returning to their "mysterious and rare" status, the more I am looking forward to BEING that mysterious and rare magicker. In fact, I had planned on NOT making a magicker if I had the karma for it, until I felt comfortable that there weren't so many around. Now that I know there won't be so many around, I think it's gonna be an AWESOME experience to be the rare, secret, hidden, "OMG I CAN'T LET ANYONE CATCH ME" loathesome hateful fear-inspiring abomination. Because up until now, it would've just been "oh - another magicker."

Which would have been fine, but it just isn't what I'm looking for when I play roles that are documented as being a challenge.

So when my current PC dies, everyone do me a favor and don't look behind the thicket at least for a couple of days. I'd like to at -least- successfully cast something before I get caught :)

Hmm...i disagree with Halaster in a few of his points.

First off, there are alot of mages but i don't believe it is currently as big of a problem as it was a couple of months ago when the "End of Days' announcement came. However the current trend is a sign of things to come.

However i truely believe (and i'm not sure if even all staff would agree with me anymore it seems) it is NOT an IC problem. If all the player population would be playing mages, thats what currently 270 players+Npc+Vnpc, thats still a small fraction of the 1.5 million virtual mundanes in Zalathas. In short the documentation would still be right, in the great scheme of things magick is rare to the world. It should not be treated otherwise. Sure a few mundanes may become 'special' in the sense they become acustomed or unafraid or involved more often then not in magick but they would be extremely rare too.

However the OOC game world and setting is not built to support a entire playerbase of magickers. It just wasn't built and designed that way, Karma in concept became a short term solution when magickers were beefed up. Self regulation is a fantasy that has rarely worked in the real world. You can't always expect the same people to make the sacrifice and other just simply won't. I know the staff doesn't want to spend energy and time on this old game anymore but its going to hurt the future game if they don't.

Again since its an OOC problem, IC 'solutions' will only contribute to it because:
1. While fun, it will just contribute to more plots with magickal components.
2. Does not solve the actual problem of people making magickers, infact it might just increase it.
3. Chances are the documentation will be ignored. Less fear and less rareness.

What is needed is a solid long term OOC solution, these are the only ones i can think of are:

1. The game documentation change, the setting changes, in short the  game changes inorder to accommodate the larger playerbase of magickers.

This is probably a possible solution for the next game but its hardly one that will hold well in the stomachs of many for this version of the game. However its a possibility and needs to be mentioned.

2. Less coded incentives for playing magickers and more coded incentives for playing mundanes

This is more reasonable solution but impractical given the situation of the current staff, making a new game, the old magicker coder Halaster long gone. Still making magicker take longer to train or mundanes shorter will help still its not the best solution.


3.Karma stays but magickers become App-only. The staff reviews magical apps at a case by case basis and come up with rules to regulate the numbers.

This is probably the best solution (mentioned before i assume) if not the hardest to swallow because it will mean some of the magicker happy player leaving. It also means more work for some unlucky staff members on App duty but inorder to maintain the game sacrifices need to be made and not only by the playerbase. By doing it this way, the staff will be able to tell who played a magicker for a year and then a warrior for three hours before apping for another magicker. It means that they can shut down magicker apps before major HRPT events to keep magickers from suddenly flooding in like in the copper wars.

Like i said though the playerbase might suffer a bit but it will get used to it like always has. I think the integrity and spirit of the game will be preserved no matter how much karma the entire playerbase accumilates over the years. Only with an OOC solution like this will an IC solution to a perception of their being too many magickers work. Since once you kill a long lived magicker or group of magickers, you know that those players won't be coming back in a magickal form for a while.


Unfortunately if self-regulation worked we wouldn't need law enforcement or goverment in the real world.

EDITTED TO ADD:

Let me just say i don't think magickal player numbers are a huge problem....yet. The key word being yet, it will become a problem as soon as any HRPT comes along or the next 'end of days' announcement or just more time passes and more people gain karma. Therefore i do believe a solution should be deciced on before it potentially become a greater problem. I also don't think people giving up karma isn't really a solution or even fair and i believe its positive effects will be short lived.

A couple more people added themselves to the "Take my karma, please!" movement. (* marks those who are new.) Current list is:

Agent_137 *
Akoto
Alberic
aruna
bardbard#4
Boggis
BuNutzCola
Delirium
Dresan
Fathi
Forest Junkie
Ghost (who started the idea after Vanth suggested it)
Gimfalisette
Hot_Dancer
Janna
Krath
LoD
manonfire
mansa
Maybe42or54
Ourla
path
Reiloth (who also retired his 'gicker)
Rhyden
Shiroi Tsuki *
Twisted Minstrel
WarriorPoet
WWYD
Yang

Shalooonsh, how much 'gicker karma are we up to now?

I felt like I had to add something, since people keep saying that the reality and the documentation don't agree.  I agree with you, but I disagree on what point.  Magick is rare?  It still is, because players aren't representative of the population.  What is going counter to documentation is what Dakurus brought up, people's reactions to the magickers.

Okay, I am currently playing a "rogue magicker."  I will say no more to help people figure out which... but I will say this:  I was HOPING that people would try to lynch my character, hunt my character or generally freak out when they found out.  People have found out.  I haven't been lynched.  Noone's organized any sort of hunt.  Only ONE person freaked out.

My character isn't the problem.  It's the characters that don't get freaked out EVERY time they see a magicker.  Just because you've seen a dozen 'Really Scary Things' (tm) doesn't mean that they should stop being scary.

Again I say, don't be the kank-riding elf.

Quote from: "spawnloser"Again I say, don't be the kank-riding elf.

When the exception to the rule becomes the norm, then perceptions change.  The relationship you describe is a two-way door.  The obligation does not rest solely with the mundane players to react to your character with fear, suspicion, and hatred.  The obligation is mutual, and as long as the players of magickal characters don't take the responsibility to curb their own numbers, proliferation in the game, and visibility amidst the mundane, they are only perpetuating the problem.

The mundane players could as easily request that you be more "rare and mysterious".  Seems easy, but I'm guessing you'll find it just as difficult to uphold your part of the bargain as mundane players are finding it to uphold theirs because both of you are at the mercy of what many consider a current problem with the game.

-LoD

Spawn, I totally agree. I tried playing one of the most disgusting, vile, and repulsive magicker concepts I could come up with. Not only was I putrid and stomach-churning to look at, but my behavior was rather strange as well.

I can note only one, possibly two characters who were fearful of my own. A few were actually friendly with him.

It's time to move on, though. We're going to grow as a result of this venture. I promise.

I just wonder how many of those PC's were also rogue mages.

I myself, in the last 4 years have played 2 mages who were able to remain secret, even to other mages for more then 3 RL months...Course one of them did so by acting mundane to the point of freaking out if he saw magick other then his own but meh.:)

Quote from: "Lizzie"

So when my current PC dies, everyone do me a favor and don't look behind the thicket at least for a couple of days. I'd like to at -least- successfully cast something before I get caught :)

I agree. I feel bad but I'm definitely not giving up my karma when I've used only 1 pt in 4 years, and I've always wanted to play a drovian. That said, I hope I won't get the chance to use it :). But if I do, then don't worry, you won't ever see my mage outright. Or maybe you will...I'll be your secret, afflicted best friend. Cursing your socks. HAHA. Too bad you can't hate me when I'm SEKRET.

But any rate, on to some of the other topics. I think its awesome people are dedicating to playing mundanes. I'm personally playing one right now and I'm excited to see it. I might actually be motivated to log on a lot more and be exciting and start plots :):)

yay

Quote from: "Halaster"
 You can, however, work towards change in the future and making the best with the way it's become.  For example, all of you who volunteered to give up your karma in a form of protest, should form a new group of characters who all hate magick and want it to go away.  Organize, IC, and start a "movement" and get people to join your cause and start witch hunts and hunt down and destroy this "infestation".  Yes, I know, mundanes against mages isn't easy, but it can definitely be done.  Some of the bigger IC historical events were started by players, you just have to have the right leader(s) who is/are motivated, etc.  Then you simply just have to work towards it.  I know this sounds kind of like some BS a motivational speaker might say, but it really is true.  Just do it.

One of you should step up - be the next Thrain! ARRRRR!  Even though the world is going to end and there's nothing you can do about it, you can still change the way it exists until that point.

This is such a damn fine idea! Really really fine idea.

Take my karma too, if it will save the game. I don't really use it, I just like to take it out and look at it when I'm alone. I don't touch it, I just look.

Quote from: "spawnloser"
My character isn't the problem.  It's the characters that don't get freaked out EVERY time they see a magicker.  Just because you've seen a dozen 'Really Scary Things' (tm) doesn't mean that they should stop being scary.

Again I say, don't be the kank-riding elf.

Let me give you some contrast.  I had a Kuraci about 5+ years ago.  At one point in his life he was jumped by a magiker raider.  I was shocked and almost died despite getting hit by a pre-pwnage magiker firing n00b spells... despite the fact I probably could have wiped the floor with him.  I ran into town, told everyone what I saw, and Templars were out not long after.  A minor plot started, a lynch mob lead by the Allanaki Templerate was formed, and the magiker and his friends were eventually brought to justice.  I got free ale for telling the story.

Fast forward to about 6 months ago.  My characters runs into three magikers in as many days outside of Tuluk.  I come breathless to the bar to share my experience (despite the fact that I was rolling my eyes in the real world).  People shrug, someone tries to muster some righteous indignation when the other hunters at the bar mention similar experiences happening all the time recently.  Everyone shrugs and goes back to what they were doing.  Nothing is done otherwise

Why the difference in responses?  In the first instance, magikers was rare.  It happened, but it was an event.  You could organize a response, form plots, and do something about it because it happened so rarely.  When it becomes an everyday instance, you just can't muster that sort of response.  Players have other things they want to be doing other than going on a magiker hunt 24/7.  I mean hell, you could probably form a magiker hunting bounty service these days score big with all the heads you could pull in.  It just doesn't inspire the same sort of excitement and rarity that it used it.  The magik thing is routine.  

I'll still run flailing from magikers, but I won't devote the existence of my merry mundane to responding to magikers.  I'll run flailing... and then move on.  If I wanted to do nothing but RP with magikers 24/7... I would play a magiker.

The "End of the World" excuse is almost a year and a half old now, it's getting a bit.. Well, old. Please tell me the new game is happening soon.

Why are you giving up your karma? I don't understand, all the names in that list, you are amazing roleplayers, well, except for that one guy, but why are you doing this? You guys are not part of the problem, what is it going to change? You're the ones who should be allowed to play them and the ones that don't want to give it up are usually the ones abusing it.

I have a feeling that this might actually make things worse, you are freeing up magickers slots and giving them up to those who we probably don't want as magickers.

But I have been gone for a week and I don't know what's going on you guys.

Malken wrote:

QuoteYou're the ones who should be allowed to play them and the ones that don't want to give it up are usually the ones abusing it.

This kind of thinking upsets me. You can only play a good magicker if you don't enjoy playing magickers? What?
Magicker does not equal powergamer. Preferring to play magickers does not make you a bad roleplayer.

Don't be upset. I said "Usually". And those in the list are some I'd rather see play magickers more than others. It doesn't mean that the rest of the players play magickers poorly, or that you play one poorly, I don't know you, but I still stand by what I said.

I also just read Halaster's idea and at this point in the game I just don't think it's possible anymore to get rid of most of the magickers in an IC way.

I think that some of the most powerful ones are too important to end of the world plots at this point.

QuoteI think that some of the most powerful ones are too important to end of the world plots at this point.

I'd like to mention that the End of the World plots are many and varied. There is no one plot, no predetermined ending and winner. We're waiting to see how some things play out just as much as the playerbase is.

No one person, group or storyline that you or may not see in game is the focus of all the attention. This isn't a book, it's a roleplaying game. As such those who are playing roles and shaping actions and stories are influencing the direction.

We're putting things out there and seeing who picks what up and runs with it. We're watching what you all are running with and thinking about how that might influence something else. We've got a ton of ideas that we think might work, and know there's a ton of other things we haven't even considered, we're just waiting for you to show it to us.

My statement above is said with Authority. It is not my own opinion, but a statement coming from the Immortal in charge of co-ordinating the End of the Known Ages.

Quote from: "spawnloser"

My character isn't the problem.  It's the characters that don't get freaked out EVERY time they see a magicker.  Just because you've seen a dozen 'Really Scary Things' (tm) doesn't mean that they should stop being scary.

Again I say, don't be the kank-riding elf.

How about seeing four hundred really scary things?

Quote from: "Malken"You're the ones who should be allowed to play them and the ones that don't want to give it up are usually the ones abusing it.

I'm not planning to give my karma. I am considering to play a magicker if my current char dies. I don't think that makes me one "abusing it". I feel upset, because now it feels like "if you don't give up and play a mundane -right now-, you are a bad person, powergamer, twinker and you don't care about the game enough". This approach really makes me sad.

Be more sad, sadder. Have a sad, sad, sadderific day!

Quote from: "Elgiva"

Quote from: "Malken"You're the ones who should be allowed to play them and the ones that don't want to give it up are usually the ones abusing it.

I'm not planning to give my karma. I am considering to play a magicker if my current char dies. I don't think that makes me one "abusing it". I feel upset, because now it feels like "if you don't give up and play a mundane -right now-, you are a bad person, powergamer, twinker and you don't care about the game enough". This approach really makes me sad.

No. That is not the message we are getting across.

By making a stand, and actually taking action and playing mundanes, I hope to return to the old Arm I used to love, and kill all of you magick casting fucks IG because you're rotten demons and abominations.

Who was it that had the "Be the change you want to see in Zalanthas" signature?

All I have to say is: Right on.

By the way I did not store my PC.

HAHAHAHA!  I am a cheater.

EDIT:  Gimf the Data bank did not see Rindan giving up his karma?

Quote from: "Raesanos"Who was it that had the "Be the change you want to see in Zalanthas" signature?

All I have to say is: Right on.

Whoever did it bastardized the Kantian categorical imperative. Yar.

Quote from: "Rindan"
Some delusional staffer gave me a enough karma for all sorts of whacky magikal shit that I have no intention of playing. Some how, I feel that adding ANOTHER fucking secret mind bending noble aid to this world really just wont make me happy.  I don't need that crap.  I want low fantasy Armageddon with thieves, thugs, mercenaries, and thuggish thieving mercenaries.  You can merrily take my karma and add it to the magikal shit can.

Quote from: "Raesanos"Who was it that had the "Be the change you want to see in Zalanthas" signature?

All I have to say is: Right on.

That was me who ripped off Gandhi.  :)  Maybe it's time to bring it back.

edit to add: My current sig is pretty fitting too, though.

Quote from: "Raesanos"Who was it that had the "Be the change you want to see in Zalanthas" signature?

All I have to say is: Right on.

Much easier to do when you're not swimming against the current.

The Staff is the wind and I'm the sail. Let's work together, yes?

And by that I mean "Thank you for dealing with the special apps problem." That's a really great step.

Quote from: "LoD"When the exception to the rule becomes the norm, then perceptions change.  The relationship you describe is a two-way door.  The obligation does not rest solely with the mundane players to react to your character with fear, suspicion, and hatred.  The obligation is mutual, and as long as the players of magickal characters don't take the responsibility to curb their own numbers, proliferation in the game, and visibility amidst the mundane, they are only perpetuating the problem.

The mundane players could as easily request that you be more "rare and mysterious".  Seems easy, but I'm guessing you'll find it just as difficult to uphold your part of the bargain as mundane players are finding it to uphold theirs because both of you are at the mercy of what many consider a current problem with the game.

How is the play of mundane characters the responsibility of ANYONE but the players of those characters?  You may as well say that because Player A was twinking that Player B should lose karma.

Also, it's everyone's responsibility to play fewer mages?  This is a game.  People should play what they enjoy playing.

And Rindan, you can stop being scared.  That's fine.  That doesn't mean that your character should stop being scared.  That's why this is a roleplaying game, because we're playing characters and not ourselves.

Quote from: "Ghost"By the way I did not store my PC.

HAHAHAHA!  I am a cheater.

EDIT:  Gimf the Data bank did not see Rindan giving up his karma?

Kill him!

Quote from: "Elgiva"
I'm not planning to give my karma. I am considering to play a magicker if my current char dies. I don't think that makes me one "abusing it". I feel upset, because now it feels like "if you don't give up and play a mundane -right now-, you are a bad person, powergamer, twinker and you don't care about the game enough". This approach really makes me sad.

Rock on Elgiva. Rock on.

Quote from: "spawnloser"How is the play of mundane characters the responsibility of ANYONE but the players of those characters?  You may as well say that because Player A was twinking that Player B should lose karma.

Also, it's everyone's responsibility to play fewer mages?  This is a game.  People should play what they enjoy playing.

If you don't understand, I know that I won't be able to help you.  And, yes, it's just as much your responsibility to keep close to the documentation as a magicker as it is of the mundane players.  You want mundane players to RP fear, hatred, and suspicion, but you don't want to be held accountable for actions that may deviate from the documentation describing magickers as rare and mysterious -- which includes making one when you know full well there is a perceived saturation in the present gameworld.

Yes, this is a game. And games are the most fun when the teams are balanced.  And that doesn't mean equal, it means balanced to provide a challenging and rewarding atmosphere for as many people as possible that choose to play.  You don't stack one team with all the good people and steamroll the rest all day.  That isn't going to be "fun" for anyone.  And when that team getting steamrolled starts to ignore some of the regular rules because they simply want to have a chance, you cannot begin quoting the rulebook when you are directly contributing to the problem.

-LoD

You can have my karma when you pry it from my cold, undead magicker fingers you "Let's unite for a better world", sick and twisted FREAKS!!!

If you haven't figured it out by now, this game is about -me-!  ME!!!

Oh, and um...Halaster.  It's about him too.   :twisted:

Hehehehehe!
Sorry.  You know I love ya'll  I just had to say something to lighten the mood around here.  Or....was it to stir up trouble?  You know..I ALWAYS get those two confoozled.  *ponder*

If and when my current EEEVUL ONE dies, yeah, sure.  I won't be playing another disgusting, vile, wicked, power mad mage running around, freaking everybody out, making elves ride kanks and humans sleep with halflings with my insanely soooper 'leeeeet p0wrZ.

I just want to add that I think too much emphasis is being placed on 'magick' vs 'mundane' by players.  My main gripe with the game is people are just too damned fluffy bunny nice to each other in the world.  And yeah, I've seen alot of cool exceptions to that.  But honestly I think it is way out of control, generally speaking.

Although....I did get a hint of some good 'ole fashioned fear and loathing recently in game.  That was pretty damned sweet.  Thanks and kudos to all ya'll that were in on that.

i'll play your sex slave, naatok.

Quote from: "LoD"If you don't understand, I know that I won't be able to help you.  And, yes, it's just as much your responsibility to keep close to the documentation as a magicker as it is of the mundane players.  You want mundane players to RP fear, hatred, and suspicion, but you don't want to be held accountable for actions that may deviate from the documentation describing magickers as rare and mysterious -- which includes making one when you know full well there is a perceived saturation in the present gameworld.

Yes, this is a game. And games are the most fun when the teams are balanced.  And that doesn't mean equal, it means balanced to provide a challenging and rewarding atmosphere for as many people as possible that choose to play.  You don't stack one team with all the good people and steamroll the rest all day.  That isn't going to be "fun" for anyone.  And when that team getting steamrolled starts to ignore some of the regular rules because they simply want to have a chance, you cannot begin quoting the rulebook when you are directly contributing to the problem.

...but the problem is that you seem to be arguing that people should play fewer magickers.  How is this irresponsible?

I'm not arguing that people should do whatever they want as magickers... but the code makes it hard to play a magicker that can inspire too much fear early on.  They simply aren't dangerous.  So early on, they tend towards cooperation and being sneaky, not scary.  The code encourages this sort of play.

If anything, the code encourages magickers to powergame their spells.

Because they have visible levels that dictate how strong they are - they have a goal to archive in regards to stats.

Image if Magickers didn't know how strong they could cast at...

That a newbie magicker could cast a mon fireball, but it would tax them so strongly!

That you can cast at any power level.  As you get better at the skill, you could cast at stronger and stronger power levels -depending on the loss of mana.

But you would never know by typing 'skills' how 'adept' you are at the skill...

Quote from: "mansa"But you would never know by typing 'skills' how 'adept' you are at the skill...

You mean... make their skills like the skills of any mundane class?  Psh.

mansa stole my idea

Cept that power level has nothing to do with skill in the spell. The spell skill does not show, same as any mundane class.

Quote from: "X-D"Cept that power level has nothing to do with skill in the spell. The spell skill does not show, same as any mundane class.

Someone needs to L2PLAYN00b.

Heh, ask staff then. But I've branched out my mages before while the power levels were at VERY low levels. If power levels equaled skill then that would not be possible. NOOB....

A mage can NOT see his/her skill level in a spell. And even if you took the power level away, so what, its only there to make it easier, for at a glance remembering, but if it wasn't, many people would simply add it client side.

Quote from: "X-D"Heh, ask staff then. But I've branched out my mages before while the power levels were at VERY low levels. If power levels equaled skill then that would not be possible. NOOB....

A mage can NOT see his/her skill level in a spell. And even if you took the power level away, so what, its only there to make it easier, for at a glance remembering, but if it wasn't, many people would simply add it client side.

Yep. It's not as if it'd be difficult to cast the spell and see how much mana they lose.

It's amazing how far a topic can change in 20 pages.