Alright, let me preface this by stating that I am not looking for intimate details about the code or about specific IC experiences. That said, I have a question or two regarding this fighting style.
Firstly, has anyone actually nurtured this skill to a level where it became effective? I've noticed that it is a vastly underused skill and has been throughout, barring the brief boom of use at its inception. Part of the reason for this seems to be that, when starting out, this skill is vastly (and I mean VASTLY) inferior to the other applicable fighting styles.
I'm curious to know if anyone has ever stuck with this style long enough to see it blossom into something useful.
The help file indicates that it A> Increases your chances of Parry
and B> Confers more attacks than other fighting styles.
I have thus far seen no indication of either of these two to be true.
Two PCs of the same class, same relative playing time and skill level are sparring. One is using the two-handed skill, the other using DW or Shield Use. In all the instances I have noted that the two-hander gets less than one-third the attacks of the opponent, whether the opponent is using a shield or two weapons. And in the DW instance, I'm refering to 'attack sets' rather than individual swings. Taking individual swings into account, it would be one sixth the attacks.
Furthermore, it seems to me that the 2-hander hits not only less, but less accurately and with less force.
I realize and understand that -many- factors figure into a combat round. A staggering number of factors, even. But even taking that into consideration, the 2-hander always seems to catch an ass-beating.
I have noticed that this seems to be the case whether you're a 1-day or 50-day warrior.
I hope I haven't said too much about code or anything here, but I really am curious to hear people share their (generalized) experiences with this fighting style and its viability when weighed against the other available styles in the game.
Did the two-handed weapon user train the entire time two-handedly in this (hypoethical) situation? I have faith.
QuoteDid the two-handed weapon user train the entire time two-handedly in this (hypoethical) situation?
In most of my previous experiences, no. They did not. It was older warriors picking it up as an afterthought skill. But that would create an understandable disparity.
I'm talking more about the vast gulf that seems to exist between two newbish warriors. From the very outset, 2-handed seems a bit discouraging because it seems to be inferior to the other two main styles, even amongst two characters that are equally inexperienced in any style at all. The primary example cited above did indeed refer to two newer PCs.
I guess I'm mainly just asking if anyone HAS opted for the two-handed style and had the tenacity to stick with it over the course of a fairly long-lived warrior PC. And, if so, did it ever 'catch up' to the other styles in terms of effectiveness.
To state something as directly as this, you will have to have more examples than a few sparring matches.
Have you taken character's statistics into porportion? Time player has been with that character? Weapon type? Armor type?
I think you need to do a teency bit more research before accusation of the weapon-style code. :wink:
But from what I've seen, the two-hander weapon-style does seem quite useless at the beginning, but I can remember characters who stayed true to this skill and could beat the pants off anybody using any other combo. Keep with it, Jordan.
Oh, a hint of advice: if you use one of the more beneficial fighting-styles for a while, you'll notice your two-handed skill with the same weapon-type will increase. That's how one of my characters became tremendously good with two-hand weapons skills, it could possibly work for you too.
QuoteI think you need to do a teency bit more research before accusation of the weapon-style code.
Well, first off, I'm not being 'accusatory' at all. Merely curious.
I, not being staff, am not really in a good position to 'research the code', even if I wanted to do so. That's why I was posting and asking for general experiences.
Of course I cannot take relative stats into account, not knowing the other PCs stats at all. But let's, for the sake of this discussion, say that the hypothetical 2-handed user has what I would call 'nice stats'.
As I said, I know that there are a lot of external and internal factors that affect a melee combat in Arm. The nature of my own understanding and the nature of the forum rules prohibit me from digging too deeply into the issue.
But I've dealt with it enough times that I feel comfortable stating that, all other things considered equally, two-handed fighting -seems- quite inferior to the other styles, at least in the early stages.
Sorry for any lack of clarity.
Addendum: By 'all things considered equally', I mean comparable armor, comparable playing time, comparable weapons and comparable skill levels.
QuoteBut from what I've seen, the two-hander weapon-style does seem quite useless at the beginning, but I can remember characters who stayed true to this skill and could beat the pants off anybody using any other combo. Keep with it, Jordan.
Thanks. This is exactly the sort of response I was looking for. :)
Sorry for the double post.
I actually would like to see increased parrying chance, more forceful hits and more hits in general with two-handed fighting weapons because I just don't think it adds up. But that would be asking for quite a bit.
You have a good point, Jordan, let's see what everybody else has to say.
QuoteI actually would like to see increased parrying chance, more forceful hits and more hits in general with two-handed fighting weapons because I just don't think it adds up. But that would be asking for quite a bit.
Actually, its not asking for much at all. The help files on two-handed skill state outright that it bestows an increased parry chance and more hits in general. :)
The skill in practice, however, (at the early levels anyway) doesn't seem to agree with the file itself.
Quote from: "Jordan Lee"QuoteI actually would like to see increased parrying chance, more forceful hits and more hits in general with two-handed fighting weapons because I just don't think it adds up. But that would be asking for quite a bit.
Actually, its not asking for much at all. The help files on two-handed skill state outright that it bestows an increased parry chance and more hits in general. :)
The skill in practice, however, (at the early levels anyway) doesn't seem to agree with the file itself.
I haven't any experience with two-handed - only two-weapon and a few other styles (archery in particular).
But I'm wondering if the whole "bestows an increased parry" is in comparison to one-handed with no shield? So - two handed would be better than one, if the one-handed armsman had no shield. Or maybe even two-handed would increase parry success IF the person had a "useable" parry skill in the first place?
Again, I am completely ignorant of 2-handed weapon combat, so take this from a totally unknowledgeable (and therefore completely unbiased) viewpoint.
I have to say, two-handing is a very useful style. I have had non-warrior, poorly-statted characters etwo and do some heavy damage, along with attacking more often than they would have normally. I've seen a character with decent agility get in as many as five consecutive attacks, even against a fairly swift opponent.
So, in the end, I'll just say I disagree with your observations. I think the two-handed skill is useful even in a newly created character. In fact, I'd say it's espicially useful to a new character, because quite often those poor bastards can afford only one weapon.
I don't believe it gives bonus to parry because I tried it from begining of my char, and fought with beasts. I always got many wounds, and I was not much succesfull. Then, I started to use two weapons, and oh man I kicked their ass with my new style. Two-handed sucks, and only gives extra damage. I can only use it after developing my char well enough.
Have faith. The better you get, the more of a whirlwind dervish you'll be.
To me, I get less (or equally) powerful swings from using two handers. I attack the same amount of times, I believe. I can't really tell if I am more accurate, though they dodge more.
I have also used this style for over 10 days, give or take.
It doesn't make sense to me that you'd be faster with a larger weapon. I'd prefer 2-h fighting to offer a greater chance to avoid being disarmed. You do have two hands on the hilt, after all, and getting disarmed wielding a 2-h weapon sucks. Dual wielding or having a shield leaves you with something if your weapon gets disarmed; 2-h fighting does not. Most characters aren't strong enough to carry a backup of that weight, so you either gotta get mauled going for your dropped 2-h weapon, or pull out a 1-h weapon, which you may not be as good with. Whereas those using the other styles are likely to be able to carry a decent backup 1-h weapon, with which they are skilled.
Quote from: "Fnord"It doesn't make sense to me that you'd be faster with a larger weapon.
It doesn't have to be a bigger weapon. A sword could be used as a one or two handed weapon, and it doesn't get bigger or heavier in both hands, in fact you probably would hit faster and harder.
Getting disarmed does suck, but you can always have a couple other weapons sheathed on you, so you can draw the new weapon very quickly. Picking up your weapon from the ground durring combat is dubious, but drawing another weapon seems fine to me.
AC
QuoteIt doesn't make sense to me that you'd be faster with a larger weapon. I'd prefer 2-h fighting to offer a greater chance to avoid being disarmed.
Well, the help file explains that a 2-handed fighting style is easy to recover from, referring to the recovery time for each swing, of course. This is, I suspect, in comparison to a two-weapon style, which we are assuming has a longer recovery time, due to the coordination issues, etc.
Once yu develop a swinging rythym with a 2-handed weapon, the tool practically swings itself. Your're working with so much momentum that, as long as you are good enough not to fight the sword, you can simply direct its flow much more easily than the less-controlled movements of two weapons at once.
That said, I also feel that two-handed fighting should confer a bonus to disarm defense.
Only vaguely related...and a bit of a derailment...but I think gauntlet locks would be a nice addition to the game. Surprised to have never seen them, actually. Or maybe they do exist and I've just never run across them.
Actually Joradn...I agree with what you quoted out of the helpfile...pretty sure you were accurate...buuuuut.....
I understood them to mean...everything it compares Two handed fighting with....is comparing it to one handed fighting...with one weapon.
And from everything Ive understood, two-handed is better than one one-handed...but codewise...dual wielding seems best.
I'm tempted to play a character who learns twohanded-wielding though now.
Well, be prepared.
If you haven't yet gathered as much from the majority of the posts...its a tough style on beginners. I know some would disagree...but everything I have seen thus far supports my theory that 2H fighting, while having great potential, is a difficult skill to work with from the beginning, due to its inherent inferiority to DW fighting, codewise.
Obviously still just my opinion...but I'm stickin to it. :)
QuoteOnly vaguely related...and a bit of a derailment...but I think gauntlet locks would be a nice addition to the game. Surprised to have never seen them, actually. Or maybe they do exist and I've just never run across them.
I submitted a locking gauntlet over a year ago. I'm with you on that one, and I agree that two-handed style should give you a huge bonus against being disarmed.
QuoteIt doesn't have to be a bigger weapon. A sword could be used as a one or two handed weapon, and it doesn't get bigger or heavier in both hands, in fact you probably would hit faster and harder.
True, I was thinking of weapons that can only be equipped in two hands which are generally large weapons, as opposed to etwo'ing a normal weapon.
As a current two-hander, I'll say that my two-handed skill is improving nicely, though it did take awhile to get rolling. It's just like any other skill. Just takes awhile, and the goods balance the bads. I'll leave it there.
Personally, I think it should be impossible to disarm cestus, gloved knives, and the like.
As for two-handed disarm immunities... Depends on the weapon I'd say.
That 3 cord long life-sized halfling club should be easier to disarm from me since I can barely lift it. since all you have to do is hit one of my hands to make me take that hand off.
While, the cord long cutlass should be damn near impossible to knock out of my hands.
Two-handed weapons do as the file states they do.
Just trust me.
I've always felt that my chances to hit/parry and the damage I do was greater with a two handed weapon.
I've observed this with 2 non-combat oriented characters (ie no weapon skills) and ranger.
Two handed = more damage + more accuracy (I am not so sure) + less defence
That's what I came up with after many fighters.