In this week's episode of 'Patuk watches with horror as Reiloth posts a discussion topic', let's begin with apartments.
Apartments. Living domiciles. Places to put all of your useless crap.
The Gaj's new apartments are a wonderful design, communal areas (as many poor tenement buildings utilized throughout history), crappy living quarters, cheap locks, and so on. Similarly, the new apartment complex in Red Storm follows the same model.
However, every other apartment complex seems to be perpetually full, with the exception of extremely poor apartments with practically no security. Moreover, they appear to be perpetually difficult to access for the criminally minded, have no communal areas, and are sort of the 'old school' of apartment complexes. Especially when considering the 'middle class', options are few and limited in Allanak. While Gaj apartments may have several access points, older apartment complexes are a 'one and done' sort of entrance hallway scheme, making them impregnable boxes.
What is the purpose of rentable apartments? In my view, it's a place for privacy (to bone), a place to put your stuff, and a place to get away from other annoying people. The side-effect, though, is sequestering people off into little hidey holes away from the general populace. These hidey-holes can be accessed by the deft of hand, but with little consequence (crime code doesn't affect burgling). While not a nuanced system, it certainly functions well enough.
Do you think Allanak needs more apartments? Different apartments? Shared apartments? Tenements? No apartments? Or do you think everything is fine as it is?
Where do you see there being more nuance with Apartments? Or do you see the system as nuanced enough?
Caller #1, you're on the air.
Hi Reiloth, Nauta here. Long time listener. Is this airing live right -- oh! Neat. Um. I'll start things off with a likely potential for derail. I'd like to eliminate apartment murders. I'd like people to trap people using the guard skill on alleyways and wit, or even guarding the door to an apartment. Hence, what I'd love are doors that unlock from the inside without needing a key.
That's about it. I love the new rooftops and how they interact with the Gaj apartments. I think Miner's and Stonecarver's should see similar love, and hope they do.
As for the mega-rich apartments being impregnable: this is probably fine since they don't rent to certain types. Shadow still works like a charm.
Oh, I also want more windows. I love sitting in my apartment and watching traffic.
Thanks for taking my call!
Long time listener, first time caller, boog here.
I want the renter limit increased. I think it would solve a lot of people from renting on their own which might open up the apartments, except for the aide/merchant apartments, which is fine.
Okay, bye.
Quote from: nauta on January 06, 2017, 04:41:30 PM
Hi Reiloth, Nauta here. Long time listener. Is this airing live right -- oh! Neat. Um. I'll start things off with a likely potential for derail. I'd like to eliminate apartment murders. I'd like people to trap people using the guard skill on alleyways and wit, or even guarding the door to an apartment. Hence, what I'd love are doors that unlock from the inside without needing a key.
That's about it. I love the new rooftops and how they interact with the Gaj apartments. I think Miner's and Stonecarver's should see similar love, and hope they do.
As for the mega-rich apartments being impregnable: this is probably fine since they don't rent to certain types. Shadow still works like a charm.
Oh, I also want more windows. I love sitting in my apartment and watching traffic.
Thanks for taking my call!
Let's keep it on topic, it'll quickly derail into another 'apartment murder' thread otherwise.
More windows, perhaps pickable from the exterior (though if you're at a height, you'd better be a master climber!), lockable and openable from the interior.
Do you think other apartments should have rooftops/sides/exterior entrances?
I don't think any area of the game should be 'impregnable'. An impregnable room eliminates chances of conflict or chances of failure, in a sense. Highly protected makes sense to me, especially if you're paying top dollar.
Quote from: boog on January 06, 2017, 04:47:45 PM
Long time listener, first time caller, boog here.
I want the renter limit increased. I think it would solve a lot of people from renting on their own which might open up the apartments, except for the aide/merchant apartments, which is fine.
Okay, bye.
Alright, thanks for calling in, boog. We love your stuff over here at Reiloth Bad Idea Central Headquarters.
Do you think increasing the renters would create a more 'communal' atmosphere to renting apartments? For instance, what if an 'apartment' was actually a few different rooms in a locked domicile. Meaning, if a few different people are on the lease, they can rent a few rooms within the same overall apartment, with a shared communal living area and kitchen. Sort of like a 'Commune' style artist living.
Quote from: Reiloth on January 06, 2017, 04:51:08 PM
Quote from: boog on January 06, 2017, 04:47:45 PM
Long time listener, first time caller, boog here.
I want the renter limit increased. I think it would solve a lot of people from renting on their own which might open up the apartments, except for the aide/merchant apartments, which is fine.
Okay, bye.
Alright, thanks for calling in, boog. We love your stuff over here at Reiloth Bad Idea Central Headquarters.
Do you think increasing the renters would create a more 'communal' atmosphere to renting apartments? For instance, what if an 'apartment' was actually a few different rooms in a locked domicile. Meaning, if a few different people are on the lease, they can rent a few rooms within the same overall apartment, with a shared communal living area and kitchen. Sort of like a 'Commune' style artist living.
Yes!
I like this idea if we had a larger player base. This idea would lead more fragmentation as it adds a new hangout joint.
Quote from: Reiloth on January 06, 2017, 04:34:44 PM
Do you think Allanak needs more apartments? Different apartments? Shared apartments? Tenements? No apartments? Or do you think everything is fine as it is?
Where do you see there being more nuance with Apartments? Or do you see the system as nuanced enough?
Unless something has changed, I believe the number of Apartments is going to be limited by the number of available SAVE rooms that can be accommodated.
As for nuance? I'd love to see more of the "you can't rent here" behavior enforced, including on who is allowed on a co-renter. Gemmed, for example, should probably be restricted from renting outside of the Gemmed Quarter.
With regard to breaking and entering. Well, I'm far too biased about how "hard" it is to steal other folks stuff versus how broken everything about the stealth code is to have a reasonable discussion about it. Suffice to say, there may be more ways into buildings then the front doors, not all of them have glow-stone signs pointing them out. Given that certain sorts of players primarily derive their enjoyment from "building" and their apartment is their single place to create their own piece of the world? I'm fine with not letting folks have an even easier time of messing with that group of people's fun.
I pretty much agree for once here, Reiloth. We cool.
I think it is fine as is. And obviously you are trying to push up your post started stat on gdb.
I think every apartment should get a balcony or a window. especially since we're burning oil lamps. CO poisoning is a real thing.
Hello?
Is this... am I live?
WOOOOO!!! SKYNAAAAARD RULEZ!!!! YEAHHHH!
*click*
Ok, so, good point hombre. I want to see the mid-upper class apartments get Eukelade'd the fuck out of. I want climb rooms to those balconies, but shit better be tough yo. The kind of tough where you actually consider leaving through the door instead of going down, you know, like an ex almost. I want those balconies to have up exits, so <redacted> can <redacted> the fuck home. I want windows you can open and climb out so Aidsey McFlufferchest can drop my pants out after I climb through.
AND FURTHERMORE I think it would be as cool as sushi served on a nude body if some of the Gaj rooms had walls so thin that sometimes (5% or less of the time) you could catch snippets of conversation. Or hear people walking outside your door/upstairs when there are actual people there.
Oh, and hookers and blow too. Complimentary to mid-upper apartments. Kthx.
Quote from: Barsook on January 06, 2017, 05:21:45 PM
I like this idea if we had a larger player base. This idea would lead more fragmentation as it adds a new hangout joint.
The way I see this being ameliorated is similar to the Gaj's situation, where the communal 'hang out' is open to the public or right next to an area open to the public, and just downstairs from the apartments. So, for instance, if the Red Storm Apartments opened up near/next to the Storm's End (Eye? I always confuse the two) rather than being on the other side of Red Storm, and if the 'Middle Class' apartments had a communal spot right next to Red's Retreat. Pushing these places together rather than apart I think drives people together.
Oh shit, Reiloth. You are only 10 posts behind me.
I gotta get this ass in gear. Say more stuffs on the geedeebee.
I am also bad at math.
The Gaj apartments DO have communal gathering spots, which I think is cool. I've never seen anyone lingering in 'em, though.
I'm super in support of taverns being the go-to place for 'rentable rooms and apartments', similar to the Gaj. Not only does it open up the communal area, but its a place you kind of HAVE to walk through to seem active. Whether those people who stroll through the Gaj WANT to interact or not, you now know there are people around and the world's PC population isn't, as the rest of it seems, a desert wasteland.
I think if you're renting an apartment outside of a tavern's high rates, you're probably paying a LOT more for sturdy walls, good guards on the outside, and the like.
I'd also like to see auto-guarding the entryways gone. I want to know where someone lives, stroll up and knock on their damn door if I think they're home. The system only stops a very few people, early on in their careers, and serves more as a hindrance than any effectiveness. I'd rather see the entryway guards gone, 2 patrolling guards added, and for the apartments to be on a zone where the guards can attack you if you're crim coded. Not that it will happen often, but it'd serve more of a benefit than they do now.
I play such narrowly-defined roles that I still haven't ever had a character with a reason to rent a middle-classy apartment in Allanak, so I can't comment on the state of them in their revamped form.
That being said, I do think the Gaj apartments are wonderful, both for fostering interaction and being pretty realistic by gameworld standards.
Poor communities the world over, communities where resources and especially land are scarce, tend to emphasise communal spaces. The Gaj roasting pits is a perfect example of this ingame. Though it's not a poor person example, the revamped Arboretum seems to have a lot of similar communal-type appeal, which is neat (although it's rare to see loads of other PCs there at once).
From a conceptual standpoint I'm all for anything that increases communal areas in the game. I just haven't experienced the current state of middle-class apartments to comment on what specifics might help.
GOOD POST, REILOTH.
Quote from: Riev on January 06, 2017, 05:41:51 PM
I'm super in support of taverns being the go-to place for 'rentable rooms and apartments', similar to the Gaj. Not only does it open up the communal area, but its a place you kind of HAVE to walk through to seem active. Whether those people who stroll through the Gaj WANT to interact or not, you now know there are people around and the world's PC population isn't, as the rest of it seems, a desert wasteland.
I think if you're renting an apartment outside of a tavern's high rates, you're probably paying a LOT more for sturdy walls, good guards on the outside, and the like.
I'd also like to see auto-guarding the entryways gone. I want to know where someone lives, stroll up and knock on their damn door if I think they're home. The system only stops a very few people, early on in their careers, and serves more as a hindrance than any effectiveness. I'd rather see the entryway guards gone, 2 patrolling guards added, and for the apartments to be on a zone where the guards can attack you if you're crim coded. Not that it will happen often, but it'd serve more of a benefit than they do now.
Hey there Riev. Thoughtful pontification, to be certain.
Rather than have stationary guards at the entrance-way, i'd rather the following happen:
*Picking locks, if viewed by a soldier in the room, is illegal. You go to jail, just like picking pockets.
*Picking locks, if in a populated room, has a chance of ticking an illegal flag. Chance is dependent on your skill at lockpicking, or perhaps lockpicking combined with sleight of hand. Being hidden while picking a lock heavily decreases the chance of this.
*Have apartment guards patrol the hall. Not all the time, but often enough, and on random enough of a schedule, to make picking locks challenging (and rewarding).
Quote from: Fathi on January 06, 2017, 05:44:49 PM
I play such narrowly-defined roles that I still haven't ever had a character with a reason to rent a middle-classy apartment in Allanak, so I can't comment on the state of them in their revamped form.
That being said, I do think the Gaj apartments are wonderful, both for fostering interaction and being pretty realistic by gameworld standards.
Poor communities the world over, communities where resources and especially land are scarce, tend to emphasise communal spaces. The Gaj roasting pits is a perfect example of this ingame. Though it's not a poor person example, the revamped Arboretum seems to have a lot of similar communal-type appeal, which is neat (although it's rare to see loads of other PCs there at once).
From a conceptual standpoint I'm all for anything that increases communal areas in the game. I just haven't experienced the current state of middle-class apartments to comment on what specifics might help.
GOOD POST, REILOTH.
Thanks Fathi.
The middle-class apartments are currently off limits unless you are working for the GMH or I (think) Nobility. They are old-school, as in long hallway with private rooms set off to each side.
Why not move the 'middle class' apartments to above the Silver Ginka? To me this kills two birds with one stone. Rather than having each apartment have balconies, have it be a vertical housing complex (Each floor has 2 apartments), with the hallway accessible from a window to the vertical wall outside. The enterprising burglar might bypass security by climbing up the building, though it would certainly be a more visible expose.
Quote from: Inks on January 06, 2017, 05:28:56 PM
I think it is fine as is. And obviously you are trying to push up your post started stat on gdb.
Naw, dog. Those days are long numbered!
Random thoughts about it.
High end buildings should have the second entrance also require picking or what not.
High end buildings should have a NPC guard that patrol up and down the halls.
Middle range buildings should have an unlocked second entrance.
Middle range buildings should have a slower, weaker NPC guard.
Low end buildings should have an unlocked second entrance.
Low end buildings should have no NPC guard.
If there was still Nenyuks they would be able to hire 'Byn or even militias to do extra patrols in problem high to middle end buildings.
I like KW's ideas.
Quote from: KankWhisperer on January 06, 2017, 07:07:05 PM
If there was still Nenyuks they would be able to hire 'Byn or even militias to do extra patrols in problem high to middle end buildings.
This would be neat. I'm not fond of the idea for the unlocked second entrance on middle tier apartments. Unless you're trying to ensure that they stay vacant, that is. I would not pay rent on a place that did not have at least the illusion of secure exits. To Reiloth's post about how all the low end places stay vacant, it's because of a lack of security. I don't feel like lessening the security in more places as a way to address this makes sense as an approach.
I do like the Byn and Nenyuk idea, and feel like with no houses having hunters anymore, Nenyuk really ought to be reopened (especially if they have the ability to rent properties out which the apartment code doesn't allow for. these exist and they rock.)
I feel like if the issue there is having to load keys, something with a script on it which would duplicate keys from a set of 'master keys' using a random command, would be of use in the situation.
Honestly, Nenyuk patrols of buildings sounds like a great ongoing NPC contract for the Byn. Gives people something to do on a night off, make it Troopers+ and at a Sergeant's discretion. Play with the amount paid each month by Nenyuk, so the Sergeant gives people nights off if they aren't getting a good paycheck.
(https://i.gyazo.com/6d6794e9268fe23ae5a474a78baa4eca.png)
Quote from: MeTekillot on January 06, 2017, 08:53:42 PM
(https://i.gyazo.com/6d6794e9268fe23ae5a474a78baa4eca.png)
It's all about me, baby!
EDIT:
I'll admit I didn't think this would happen, but Reiloth's Weekly Poo may be the title of these threads.
Hi Reiloth. Would you say your GDB-bad-ideas are the result of your poor upbringing merely just your social ineptitude?
Also what's the deal with the guards at the Gaj apartments? Anyone who has played a sneak knows what I'm talking about.
Quote from: Jingo on January 06, 2017, 10:18:26 PM
Hi Reiloth. Would you say your GDB-bad-ideas are the result of your poor upbringing merely just your social ineptitude?
Also what's the deal with the guards at the Gaj apartments? Anyone who has played a sneak knows what I'm talking about.
*little laugh*
Alright, alright, Jingo, you got my number. I'd say the foundation of the Reiloth Foundation for Bad Ideas is, you know, Patuk challenged me one time and said I was posting bad ideas lately, so I said...Hey? Why not roll with it! The rest is history. Social ineptitude is sort of the icing on the cake, you know?
I don't want to spoil the fun, so i'll just say...Find out IC!