Percentages at a reasonable N are about what I expected, and thank you so far to all who have posted/voted.  I imagined it'd be about a 70/30 split or so, and was chewing on the idea if I could somehow tease back some of the people who've left due to vision of change frustrations to participate what would it look like?  Its speculative, but would it be closer to a 60/40? But I think 70/30 is still pretty hefty when you consider things like that.  Like seems to be attracting like, and there seems to be diversity represented in those who still play and enjoy the game despite player enjoyment decreasing or being roughly balanced with changes over time.  

Patuk, coded is not the only change I was looking at when asking this question:  all the changes.  Including things like clan caps and other non-code-enforced changes, such as adding new ranks in clans as another example.  Policy as much as code.  Both have huge impacts on player enjoyment.

So, to round back to the original thrust of the agenda:  what do you think of expanding interest in player enjoyment diversity as a means of making the game experience more robust?  To get a notion about what I mean in this question, perhaps some examples.  You read phrases being tossed around on the boards about different types of player behavior (not character behavior exclusively).  Examples might be 'tressy tress rp' or 'twinking/skill grinding' or 'nooblar' and so on.  I've always entertained these were expressions of frustration regarding the diversity of player enjoyment types.  Someone who likes mucking up things with coded skills and getting into coded fights and so on might say, 'those damn tressy tress are ruining my game!'.  Vice versa, so on and so forth.  

So what if policy and coded changes were looked at with an eye for balancing this sort of thing?  As one of those guys who likes code, and also likes to do 'things' in game, I personally have lost a lot of recognized player enjoyment factors.  Some shoring has happened too, mind you, I'm not painting doom and gloom here.  But overall, yes, a number of real big options for enjoyment open to me then are now gone, and I do feel far less has been opened to mitigate those loses.  

That being said, I suspect those who enjoy other aspects the game offers might find a lot of cool new opportunities in the code and policy changes(and I don't begrudge them that)!  However, if when taking a piece away, its value and what it represents to player enjoyment was measured and another means of supporting that aspect was plugged back in, don't you think that would be a lot more pleasing for many?  Enticing for new, old alike?  Soothing for when a change hurts?  Something to look forward to?

The vast majority of people who play the game were not represented in this poll.

This poll only reflects the opinions of those people who feel strongly enough about changes in the first place (positively or negatively) to post at all and be part of the poll.

As such you have to consider that the "About Even" or "Added" categories would in fact be MUCH higher than you are seeing.

Why those categories?

Because in general when someone gets upset about something THAT is when they feel the necessity to be part of expressing their opinion and/or trying to create change.

You have a huge portion of the playerbase here who is not represented who:

A) Are happy with the way things are and so don't care to even be part of this/aren't looking at it to begin with.
B) Are not displeased enough to really care enough to try and express their disappointment if they have any.
C) Have already gotten so upset they left the game and don't even care about the game anymore/know this poll even exists.

I personally find it telling and extremely inspiring that a 70/30 split of the people who actually care enough to post care to post in the positive/not entirely negative.

Considering the recent "shaking of things up" I would have thought the number of people posting in the negative would have been much higher since this is exactly the sort of avenue they would be looking for to express their disappointment.

In conclusion, all this tells me is that a huge portion of the playerbase doesn't feel affected enough to even care enough to vote, and of the very small fraction that do, even that very small fraction feels good or not very upset about it in the majority.

Don't forget:

D) Don't frequent the GDB.

It's easy for us to forget such players, but I've noticed that staff seem to have a better handle on just how many people play but don't post.

By my count, there have been 310 unique logins by players in the month of March. So even if it's not all players voting on polls, it's a pretty sizable sample.

I voted Added to solely based on how much work has been done over the guild, subguild and extended.  Sure some factors have been removed and made becoming freakishly twinked out a little harder to accomplish (which isn't a bad thing) but how they've made it so we can have much more well rounded characters is truly awesome.  Its also a hell of a lot harder to guild sniff than ever before, leaving your characters more options to roleplay their lives.  Even with the changes to mage guilds you'd have to agree that a warrior-krathi has a much better chance at survival than either a warrior or a krathi in their previous standings.  Just my opinion at the moment, but we shall see how things unfold.  Also welcome back Gith! Now where are those rouge halflings hiding...

Quote from: Nergal on March 31, 2016, 02:58:02 PM
By my count, there have been 310 unique logins by players in the month of March. So even if it's not all players voting on polls, it's a pretty sizable sample.

Yep. I'm getting sick of people griping about the "vocal minority", like the people on the GDB's opinions aren't valid or representative of the whole.

It's not a random sample, though. It's a self-selected sample of players who actively monitor or participate on the GDB.

That said, I don't see a convincing argument as to why these self-selecters would be biased compared to the general playerbase. Being more likely to participate here doesn't seem to be relevant to the question asked. Especially if you're trying to separate GDB participation from game participation.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 31, 2016, 03:16:13 PM

Quote from: Nergal on March 31, 2016, 02:58:02 PM
By my count, there have been 310 unique logins by players in the month of March. So even if it's not all players voting on polls, it's a pretty sizable sample.

Yep. I'm getting sick of people griping about the "vocal minority", like the people on the GDB's opinions aren't valid or representative of the whole.

-hi5-

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 31, 2016, 03:16:13 PM

Quote from: Nergal on March 31, 2016, 02:58:02 PM
By my count, there have been 310 unique logins by players in the month of March. So even if it's not all players voting on polls, it's a pretty sizable sample.

Yep. I'm getting sick of people griping about the "vocal minority", like the people on the GDB's opinions aren't valid or representative of the whole.

They aren't representative of the whole. Any statistician will tell you that.

They can still be pretty relevant though, depending on what you want to suss out of them.

Quote from: Nergal on March 31, 2016, 02:58:02 PM
By my count, there have been 310 unique logins by players in the month of March. So even if it's not all players voting on polls, it's a pretty sizable sample.

I'm not saying it isn't applicable.

I'm saying I view it as a positive as opposed to a negative.

Roughly 25% is a pretty good sample. That 25% would be comprised of those players who care enough/feel affected enough either way to vote to begin with.

I'm speculating that the remaining 75% who aren't voting are likely comprised of players who, "Aren't pissed off enough to be angry enough to voice an opinion about their anger/disappointment.". I feel that makes sense personally.

I would guess MOST people who are truly upset are following the GDB and are actively voting about how they are upset. I feel we probably got "most of them" in this poll from that batch....and still it's only 19 people out of the playerbase.

That's my theory based on data that can't really be confirmed because if people don't vote, I can only speculate as to why. But speculate I will.  

Quote from: Narf on March 31, 2016, 03:38:43 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 31, 2016, 03:16:13 PM

Quote from: Nergal on March 31, 2016, 02:58:02 PM
By my count, there have been 310 unique logins by players in the month of March. So even if it's not all players voting on polls, it's a pretty sizable sample.

Yep. I'm getting sick of people griping about the "vocal minority", like the people on the GDB's opinions aren't valid or representative of the whole.

They aren't representative of the whole. Any statistician will tell you that.

They can still be pretty relevant though, depending on what you want to suss out of them.

How is it not representative?  Maybe I'm using the wrong word? Reflective? What's the word for "encompases a large enough portion of something to be indicative of the whole"


Edit2: Oh, indicative IS probably the word I wanted.

I guess I could also note that of the 19 people who are viewing this as a negative those 19 would likely be veteran players who have access to the guilds that are being affected as of late. (Players with some karma behind them.)

They would also be players who have of course played for 5+ years. (If they are true to the poll.)

I would tend to give their opinions more weight personally than the "masses". I'm biased towards veterans.

I'm not dismissing their opinions, I'm just trying to weigh the numbers in my mind.

One day I'll be enough for a veteran for D-man to value my opinion.

New objective!

Quote from: Giled on March 31, 2016, 04:17:32 PM
One day I'll be enough for a veteran for D-man to value my opinion.

New objective!

I dare you to set this to your objective in-game.

(Do not do this please. Staff likely wouldn't like either of us for it.)

Quote from: Desertman on March 31, 2016, 04:24:51 PM

Quote from: Giled on March 31, 2016, 04:17:32 PM
One day I'll be enough for a veteran for D-man to value my opinion.

New objective!

I dare you to set this to your objective in-game.

(Do not do this please. Staff likely wouldn't like either of us for it.)

Done

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on March 31, 2016, 03:54:33 PM
How is it not representative?  Maybe I'm using the wrong word? Reflective? What's the word for "encompases a large enough portion of something to be indicative of the whole"


Edit2: Oh, indicative IS probably the word I wanted.

He isn't saying the poll isn't good enough to tell us something.  He's just saying that the poll numbers are not guaranteed to be the same as if we actually had forced the whole pbase to respond.

It's like lemonade.  If you drink 25% of the glass, but don't stir it first, even though you drank a fair amount of it, you aren't guaranteed to have gotten an accurate representation of the flavor, because your entire sample shared certain characteristics (like being watery, or light) that made it float up to the sampling point. 

In this case, the entire sample shared the characteristics of reading and replying to the GDB.  As Hyzhenhok said, that probably isn't directly related to their feelings about the changes, so the sample is probably good enough.  I would probably say it is suggestive of the whole.

I voted removed because of Tuluk closing. Thats affected my enjoyment in Arm more than anything. Also drovians being removed, and finally the fact that the elite branches of the houses have been closed. There has been plenty of great additions though.

Elite branches, you mean special ops of GMH? Outriders, falcons, etc?

As an off-peak and casual player, the game has grown by leaps and bounds for a player of my type. Many of the big changes and a lot of the smaller ones, both in the world and in the code, have made life much better for casual players than it used to be.

It's going back a little further than five years, but I remember playing a solo off-peak PC in the southern desert a few years ago:

no non-lethal animals to hunt
very little variety in desert rooms
no way to sell sifted spice unless a Kurac PC was online
merchants that never had coin due to no PCs around buying things (before vnpc sales)
merchants that wouldn't buy half of what you could scavenge
very limited stuff you could forage
rooms outside the gates NOT being quit rooms
starting levels of contact skill that meant you HAD to practice on NPCs all the time
very few helpful subguild options for mages who didn't want to live in the city
needing a special app to have a different starting accent than where your character spawned
'direction sense' in sandstorms only available to rangers
no way to raise certain skills (fletchery etc.) with southern-only materials
no way to get certain equipment on chargen without going to places that might be OOC for your character (hello starter shops)

Literally all of that is fixed now.

Some of the clans/areas that were closed were a bummer to lose, but for the type of player I am, the game has never been more enjoyable than it is now.

I can't describe how grateful I am that it's so much easier now to just roll up a PC and play the goddamn game compared to how it was.

Due to the hours I play, I tend to play a lot of solo wanderer type PCs, and a few years ago I would have told you my options to enjoy the game were basically ranger, Whiran, or desert elf. A shitload has changed to make that no longer the case.

Quote from: Dar on March 31, 2016, 10:14:19 PM
Elite branches, you mean special ops of GMH? Outriders, falcons, etc?

Yeah. GMH groups like Outriders, Falcons, J'kaar. Noble branches like Scorpions, Wyverns, Elites, and so on.

Quote from: Fathi on April 01, 2016, 01:07:35 AM
As an off-peak and casual player, the game has grown by leaps and bounds for a player of my type. Many of the big changes and a lot of the smaller ones, both in the world and in the code, have made life much better for casual players than it used to be.

It's going back a little further than five years, but I remember playing a solo off-peak PC in the southern desert a few years ago:

no non-lethal animals to hunt
very little variety in desert rooms
no way to sell sifted spice unless a Kurac PC was online
merchants that never had coin due to no PCs around buying things (before vnpc sales)
merchants that wouldn't buy half of what you could scavenge
very limited stuff you could forage
rooms outside the gates NOT being quit rooms
starting levels of contact skill that meant you HAD to practice on NPCs all the time
very few helpful subguild options for mages who didn't want to live in the city
needing a special app to have a different starting accent than where your character spawned
'direction sense' in sandstorms only available to rangers
no way to raise certain skills (fletchery etc.) with southern-only materials
no way to get certain equipment on chargen without going to places that might be OOC for your character (hello starter shops)

Literally all of that is fixed now.

Some of the clans/areas that were closed were a bummer to lose, but for the type of player I am, the game has never been more enjoyable than it is now.

I can't describe how grateful I am that it's so much easier now to just roll up a PC and play the goddamn game compared to how it was.

Due to the hours I play, I tend to play a lot of solo wanderer type PCs, and a few years ago I would have told you my options to enjoy the game were basically ranger, Whiran, or desert elf. A shitload has changed to make that no longer the case.

All of this. Fathi is my new spirit animal.

Codewise I think we've grown beautifully in most areas.

I'm sad to say though that this is definitely NOT the same Armageddon I came to love and be addicted to.
The tag line just doesn't exist in the same way. 


I read about a lot of the changes and it makes me not wanna play.

The world, while more interesting in a way, is just too survivable. There are way too many changes to magickers in particular, changes that I really disagree with in sorcery and nilazi practice. Two of the most terrifying guilds gone, just like that.

It changes your play, your character, when you're no longer "as scared" to log on.

If near death, almost getting to do vile things, friendship and trust intrigue you... Follow me to Zalanthas.

'Scuze me while I brace for the backlash.

For well over 40% of the respondents of the poll, the additions do NOT outweigh the subtractions. I consider that statistically significant.

I feel that the expected, wanted, desired result would be more like -

5% feel the additions do -not- outweigh the subtractions
15% feel they are more or less equal
5% are ambivalent; that the changes don't affect them enough to care one way or another
75% are benefiting directly or indirectly and are totally feeling the positives over the negatives.

Quote from: Lizzie on April 01, 2016, 09:24:53 AM
For well over 40% of the respondents of the poll, the additions do NOT outweigh the subtractions. I consider that statistically significant.

I feel that the expected, wanted, desired result would be more like -

5% feel the additions do -not- outweigh the subtractions

With this playerbase you are never ever going to get just 5% of people disliking a change/changes unless it's a bugfix that fixes lag or game crashes.

Not saying we're all a bunch of whiners, but I remember player backlash against stuff that most people these days talk about as being universally beneficial/cool. The game just leads to strong feelings and super divisive opinions.

We really are a bunch of whiners, though.