Quote
Hello, kittens.
I just wanted to gently remind you all that words like madam/sir are anachronistic to the setting. One should refer to fellow commoners by their job titles or simply their names as opposed to, 'miss, sir, madam, ma'am,' and other, gender specific titles. The exception of this, of course, is for Ladies or Lords, Templars, or tribal titles documented elsewhere.
Thank you for your adherence and happy playing!
Just curious -- How are titles like these anachronistic? The etymology of 'mister' is 'master', while 'miss' is 'mistress', of which there are many in game (Concubines, mistresses, and so on). While perhaps the modern usage of the word appears anachronistic, it also seems a bit arbitrary to say titles like these are anachronistic. Similar to sir (Sire, or Senior). They are all newer derivations of older words, and sort of shortenings of the previous versions.
Would it be acceptable to call someone 'Master Soandso'?
Would it be acceptable to call someone 'Mistress Soandso'?
Those are also a bit jarring.
I would add that when posting a "reminder", a link to the original documentation is appreciated.
I mean, so is calling someone Merchant and Agent over and over again. I don't see any documentation detailing 'common addresses' or anything of the sort, so this just seems to be a quickly decided Staff consensus, and then making it seem like it's always been that way.
Language of any sort always has 'honorifics' that you can attach to a name or to a title. Sir and Madam or Master and Mistress are ways of doing that in english (though I guess c. 1200 is considered anachronistic). So perhaps honorifics could be explored in Sirihish, rather than just eradicated?
Similarly, there have been dozens of things actually anachronistic to the setting -- katanas, sandwiches, and so on. Some things have been explained as 'Leftovers of the Empire of Man', while other things have been removed or changed. It seems unless it is Arabic or Middle-Eastern in theme (which chronologically, many of the things in game are contemporary of 1200AD - 1300AD, just not Anglican or European in origin), it can be labeled as anachronistic to the setting.
I don't really see where it was ever stated this was explicitly wrong? I guess this is the beginning!
For example, almost ten years ago, I had a character known as 'Misses Mosali'. No one on Staff seemed to bat an eye, or make any mention of it being anachronistic at the time or since.
To me this seems like a few Staffers getting together and deciding they don't like it when players use "Mr. Miss Sir Sire Ma'am Madame or Master or Mistress", and making a post about it.
It isn't a big deal, but unless there is original documentation to support it, it's new documentation, not a reminder. So the onus isn't on us (the Players who don't know any better or haven't been told otherwise).
Do you think, truly, that a grebber is worthy of a title of miss or mister?
Also, if I might add, the etymology of master predates mister by ... quite a while. :)
Arbitrarily decided that this is the case, hmm?
Master and Mistress, in particular, are in no way jarring or anachronistic.
I think you guys are messing up no negativity with no acknowledgement. Everything is not gender neutral, it's just gender doesn't matter.
Master and mistress aren't on my list at all. :)
Quote from: Cayuga on December 29, 2016, 02:54:31 PM
Do you think, truly, that calling grebbers is worthy of a title of miss or mister?
That's beside the point. It's totally fine if Staff wants to make something like this legit and part of documentation. But I think it's weird to imply it's always been this way, when there is no documentation to support it. Players will follow documentation even if they don't agree with it (I count myself among that population). So just writing up a help-file, saying this is the way it is from now on, would make more sense to me (personally).
I think it's subjective. Sometimes people call someone 'Mister or Miss' to insult them, pretend they are giving them an honorific when they actually are intending the opposite. Mister and Miss are also gender indicators (of which there are none in Sirihish, beyond 'da' and 'di' for Kuraci Family). So introducing someone or asking someone's name..."Mister...What was your name again?" is a sentence not possible without a gender indicating noun.
Quote from: Cayuga on December 29, 2016, 02:57:03 PM
Master and mistress aren't on my list at all. :)
Quote from: Renenutet
Those are also a bit jarring.
I love both you guys, but who am I to follow?
It isn't beside the point. The very point of the announcement is that commoners are commoners and aren't worthy of honorifics, especially not mildly contemporary titles.
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 02:59:08 PM
Quote from: Cayuga on December 29, 2016, 02:57:03 PM
Master and mistress aren't on my list at all. :)
Quote from: Renenutet
Those are also a bit jarring.
I love both you guys, but who am I to follow?
'A bit jarring,' isn't, "please don't use this."
Please understand that no one is in trouble. We are not spanking fingers with rulers.
This is a habit that recently gained traction in Allanak. The increased usage generated conversation among the staff. We have been generally working toward emphasizing the unique Zanthan tenor of the game world and de-emphasizing those things that feel more real world European/Victorian.
Quote from: Cayuga on December 29, 2016, 02:59:34 PM
It isn't beside the point. The very point of the announcement is that commoners are commoners and aren't worthy of honorifics, especially not mildly contemporary titles.
Those contemporary titles are pretty historically accurate across civilizations and timeframes.
They are direct addresses of 'Man' and 'Woman'. If I walked up and said 'Man Vennant, would you get me a drink?', would you consider that an honorific?
Rene's right. We want to steer the gameworld into using titles indicative of a person's stature, and not honorifics that are modern or westernized. We're hoping to create a Zalanthas that is truly unique in artwork, culture, and society from the sort of imperialism that's made these words commonplace in our modern era.
Quote from: Armaddict on December 29, 2016, 03:01:23 PM
Quote from: Cayuga on December 29, 2016, 02:59:34 PM
It isn't beside the point. The very point of the announcement is that commoners are commoners and aren't worthy of honorifics, especially not mildly contemporary titles.
Those contemporary titles are pretty historically accurate across civilizations and timeframes.
They are direct addresses of 'Man' and 'Woman'. If I walked up and said 'Man Vennant, would you get me a drink?', would you consider that an honorific?
I think Vennant would stare at you and tell you to get the fuck out of his bar unless you're going to pay him for two mugs of swill. ;)
We can consider including documentation on what words are acceptable in the setting or not. We will also expect players to take cues from one another in-game. That works both ways: it can result in favorable mannerisms spreading, or unfavorable ones.
Staff have a desire to bring this particular trend to a head immediately. We're not going to waste time as multiple PCs in game use honorifics that we feel makes little sense in the setting. We made that mistake when we allowed PCs to use "big" to refer to a half-giant, as if they were all three years old.
TL;DR: Expect documentation soon. Follow the announcement now.
While 'mister' and 'miss' are strange, and not commonly used, I've never considered them jarring from immersion or out of place.
Normally, I find them spilling out of the lips of cute little characters who are trying to be cute, which makes me think of them as cute.
There's plenty of 'Hey asshole!' to counter it in the game. As of a month ago, really wasn't having a problem with it.
QuoteI think Vennant would stare at you and tell you to get the fuck out of his bar unless you're going to pay him for two mugs of swill. ;)
I think you're out of your gourd. No offense.
QuoteTL;DR: Expect documentation soon. Follow the announcement now.
Yaaay. Just don't make it as shoddy and non-addressing of the actual history of things as say...the 'rinth documentation. Cuz that shit causes problems all over the place.
On one hand, this is yet another thing to trip up new players.
On the other hand, 'big' was REALLY annoying....
As long as it's documented (and we K.I.S.S. on that documentation) I'm cool with it?
Quote from: Renenutet on December 29, 2016, 03:00:45 PM
Please understand that no one is in trouble. We are not spanking fingers with rulers.
This is a habit that recently gained traction in Allanak. The increased usage generated conversation among the staff. We have been generally working toward emphasizing the unique Zanthan tenor of the game world and de-emphasizing those things that feel more real world European/Victorian.
Wouldn't this be more beneficial by introducing gender indicating nouns or honorifics to sirihish, rather than denouncing what are natural parts of the english language at this point? Just as with back-translated Cavilish to Sirihish or 'What's this word mean in Sirihish?', Mister for all we know is "Cafah" and Misses "Cafhi". The stigma here is the similarity between the gender indicating nouns and proper english, which is the language we all happen to use playing the game.
At no point have I ever considered that 'honorifics' are not or should not be applied to Commoners. This is new, if it is considered new documentation, not referential documentation. Otherwise, it's just an opinion. Many people can share this opinion (Say, several Staffers). But it doesn't dismiss the fact that this wasn't documented, isn't a help file, and Players can't read minds.
Obviously we all now know going forward not to use these words. But it does seem arbitrary when there is no original documentation to support it.
I explained why there is no documentation yet in my last post.
What's wrong with "big"?
Quote from: Nergal on December 29, 2016, 03:10:39 PM
I explained why there is no documentation yet in my last post.
If that was directed at me, I meant my statement in the future tense.
As long as it GETS documented, I should have said.
Moderated a post due to self-identification of a PC.
Quote from: Delirium on December 29, 2016, 03:12:17 PM
Quote from: Nergal on December 29, 2016, 03:10:39 PM
I explained why there is no documentation yet in my last post.
If that was directed at me, I meant my statement in the future tense.
As long as it GETS documented, I should have said.
No, it was directed at this post by Reiloth:
Quote
Obviously we all now know going forward not to use these words. But it does seem arbitrary when there is no original documentation to support it.
I'd just advise Staff to put the cart behind the horse next time. If a Player or Players are doing something that bugs you, reach out to them in private, don't just suddenly make an announcement as if they've been doing something wrong all this time when it's new documentation (that hasn't been written yet).
I think trying to break trends via introducing new, targeted documentation that can be more encompassing than what you're trying to 'fix' is kind of a bad step.
It's not that I am stubbornly clinging to the titles (I don't...think I've ever used them...to be honest). I just think more regulation is bad in a roleplay game where we are supposed to make things how we want. Making a tentacle-headed professor of modern biology goes against documentation; a character who refers to people as Mister is not really an issue, and your efforts to succinctly explain why in documentation are probably more likely to -create- an issue elsewhere. (edit: To clarify, the mutant professor was there as a comparison between when things are likely to cause an actual issue to the game, and one where you can dislike it, but it's not harming anything or anyone IC or OOC).
This really is not a big deal worthy of any attention whatsoever aside from a polite prod of 'We think your proclivity for using these terms might be pushing a theme we aren't a fan of, could you break the habit?'. And that's...if it's even worth that.
Edit again: As it stands, the way I imagine this topic being breached is one person on staff either agreeing with a randomly submitted complaint or seeing it themselves, saying it bugged them, and an echo chamber of staff-friends agreeing that it should no longer happen. While that may make sense to you, as a consensus, it's also kind of a 'sensationalist' way of administrating a long-reaching roleplay experience. I mean...this same process is the same way you could decide to write up documenation that makes tressy-tresses karma required due to the squalor of the world. Seriously. Just because you all don't particularly like something doesn't mean you should throw up rules about it.
Just as long as long as we can keep using the titles "Oi you", "Idjit" and "Dimwit" then I'm all peachy :)
I haven't seen staff call anyone out specifically, or call anyone names, or slap any one down for this so I don't see what they big deal is. A reminder that "Mister/Miss" are anachronistic and let's try to be original is making people salty? WTF?
My only famous PC had mister as part of his name. Why'd you retcon me bro?
What I find more jarring is being called 'honey' ingame - by complete strangers trying too hard to pretend they're nice people.
No matter what character I play, this always creeps them out!
Quote from: Bushranger on December 29, 2016, 03:19:29 PM
Just as long as long as we can keep using the titles "Oi you", "Idjit" and "Dimwit" then I'm all peachy :)
I haven't seen staff call anyone out specifically, or call anyone names, or slap any one down for this so I don't see what they big deal is. A reminder that "Mister/Miss" are anachronistic and let's try to be original is making people salty? WTF?
Because it isn't a reminder if no one told you before.
Seeing a post like that, and to see 'staff consider it an unfavorable mannerism' and all this strong rhetoric, while not having any clue that's the case, makes it seem like I might be unknowingly garnering unfavorable attention! That can be frustrating.
Communication is a two way street, and we happen to have a great way to communicate between Players and Staff: the request tool.
Quote
Hello, kittens.
I just wanted to gently remind you all that words like madam/sir are anachronistic to the setting. One should refer to fellow commoners by their job titles or simply their names as opposed to, 'miss, sir, madam, ma'am,' and other, gender specific titles. The exception of this, of course, is for Ladies or Lords, Templars, or tribal titles documented elsewhere.
Thank you for your adherence and happy playing!
Who cares?
If someone's running around tipping their surmac and saying "m'lady" just fucking PK them for being an idiot.
http://armageddon.org/help/view/Titles
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 03:27:25 PM
Because it isn't a reminder if no one told you before.
Seeing a post like that, and to see 'staff consider it an unfavorable mannerism' and all this strong rhetoric, while not having any clue that's the case, makes it seem like I might be unknowingly garnering unfavorable attention! That can be frustrating.
Communication is a two way street, and we happen to have a great way to communicate between Players and Staff: the request tool.
We have a saying in french that pretty much translates to 'You are looking for bad intentions where there isn't any.'
::)
Can't wait to see -this- judgment roleplayed out in-character for the first time.
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 03:16:14 PM
I'd just advise Staff to put the cart behind the horse next time. If a Player or Players are doing something that bugs you, reach out to them in private, don't just suddenly make an announcement as if they've been doing something wrong all this time when it's new documentation (that hasn't been written yet).
If we wanted to contact anyone specifically, we would have. The issue is that players interact with others. If we inform the players doing something we don't like in view of other players, that solves half the problem. It doesn't solve the other half of the behavior becoming acceptable and spreading out.
Nergal I think you left out the military exceptions which, at least in my experience, are the only times I've seen "sir" or "ma'am" get used. And the preference has always been for "sir" regardless of sex.
There's something about this whole impetus that strikes me as deeply irritating, though I'm not sure why. Maybe it's the "no titles, except for this very large list of exceptions." Makes me wonder what people were actually doing wrong. Presumably something stupid like my neckbeard example.
Quote from: Nergal on December 29, 2016, 03:32:44 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 03:16:14 PM
I'd just advise Staff to put the cart behind the horse next time. If a Player or Players are doing something that bugs you, reach out to them in private, don't just suddenly make an announcement as if they've been doing something wrong all this time when it's new documentation (that hasn't been written yet).
If we wanted to contact anyone specifically, we would have. The issue is that players interact with others. If we inform the players doing something we don't like in view of other players, that solves half the problem. It doesn't solve the other half of the behavior becoming acceptable and spreading out.
If it's a new trend, and only a few people are doing it, how does that not stop the behavior?
Quote from: Malken on December 29, 2016, 03:31:24 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 03:27:25 PM
Because it isn't a reminder if no one told you before.
Seeing a post like that, and to see 'staff consider it an unfavorable mannerism' and all this strong rhetoric, while not having any clue that's the case, makes it seem like I might be unknowingly garnering unfavorable attention! That can be frustrating.
Communication is a two way street, and we happen to have a great way to communicate between Players and Staff: the request tool.
We have a saying in french that pretty much translates to 'You are looking for bad intentions where there isn't any.'
Probably translates to "Mister" and "Misses" in english.
I'm not sure how I could possibly be clearer. Once you do something in-game it's been witnessed by other players. It has the potential to spread. We can't contact you AND everyone you've ever interacted with in the time it would take to write an announcement and helpfile.
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 03:35:15 PM
Quote from: Malken on December 29, 2016, 03:31:24 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 03:27:25 PM
Because it isn't a reminder if no one told you before.
Seeing a post like that, and to see 'staff consider it an unfavorable mannerism' and all this strong rhetoric, while not having any clue that's the case, makes it seem like I might be unknowingly garnering unfavorable attention! That can be frustrating.
Communication is a two way street, and we happen to have a great way to communicate between Players and Staff: the request tool.
We have a saying in french that pretty much translates to 'You are looking for bad intentions where there isn't any.'
Probably translates to "Mister" and "Misses" in english.
We could always go the French Revolution way and insist that everyone be called 'Citizen Amos' or 'Citizen Talia' no matter their title!
I do find it amusing that we're discussing proper title usage when, to my knowledge, there still isn't a page anywhere saying commoners in Allanak should bow to Templars and nobility.
If there had been I would certainly have bowed to the first Templar I met and not wasted time addressing her as "m'lady" (which was quickly and humorously corrected as being improper in-game on multiple levels).
Edit: Maybe we can expand the new title page to "Titles and etiquette"?
Quote from: Cayuga on December 29, 2016, 02:54:31 PM
Do you think, truly, that a grebber is worthy of a title of miss or mister?
How big is his sword and how wounded am I already? :)
I almost never use "mister" but I liberally throw around "Miss" when I want to show respect to someone. It's a Southern thing. It may be anachronistic, but there's a LOT of anachronistic stuff we do in game. I feel like if we yank all of it away I'm going to be hard-pressed to express myself and be spending more time on what I think might be acceptable rather than focusing on the scene at hand.
Quote from: Malken on December 29, 2016, 03:31:24 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 03:27:25 PM
Because it isn't a reminder if no one told you before.
Seeing a post like that, and to see 'staff consider it an unfavorable mannerism' and all this strong rhetoric, while not having any clue that's the case, makes it seem like I might be unknowingly garnering unfavorable attention! That can be frustrating.
Communication is a two way street, and we happen to have a great way to communicate between Players and Staff: the request tool.
We have a saying in french that pretty much translates to 'You are looking for bad intentions where there isn't any.'
Is it... "Lâche pas la patate!"?
QuoteI do find it amusing that we're discussing proper title usage
I find it amusing that -this- was worthy of staff deliberation and action. Mister and Miss. Totally srs bizness. Was breaking the theme. Hard. Needed to be nipped on the bud now, before it spread like a plague across the playerbase.
Also. I think that two players who use Miss and Mister consistently should be investigated for OOC information sharing.
Hello male gendered individual of lower economic caste and impure racial heritage!
Dudes, don't be trolly.
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 03:44:58 PM
Quote from: Malken on December 29, 2016, 03:31:24 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 03:27:25 PM
Because it isn't a reminder if no one told you before.
Seeing a post like that, and to see 'staff consider it an unfavorable mannerism' and all this strong rhetoric, while not having any clue that's the case, makes it seem like I might be unknowingly garnering unfavorable attention! That can be frustrating.
Communication is a two way street, and we happen to have a great way to communicate between Players and Staff: the request tool.
We have a saying in french that pretty much translates to 'You are looking for bad intentions where there isn't any.'
Is it... "Lâche pas la patate!"?
'Cherche pas des
bébittes là ou il n'y en a pas!'
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 03:46:28 PM
Dudes, don't be trolly.
Would it be trolly if the commoner PCs who used "miss" and "mister" among themselves were summarily executed by the Templarate for attempting to usurp noble privileges?
I'm serious. Just looking for a fun social engineering angle to use in game :D
I mean, without other gender indicating nouns available, I guess I will go Master and Mistress and call it a day. Full circle, i'm guessing even these might be inappropriate as they are honorifics, and now (as of today) honorifics are not allowed for Commoners.
From a game design standpoint, I would just open up 'da' and 'di' to be honorifics everyone can use for male and female.
Wow some folks seem really bent on being insulted.
Would there be an appropriate honorific to a Family Member of a Great Merchant House? Say you don't know the Kuraci's name, but you do recognize the Family signet? And wanted to introduce yourself, but didn't know if they were a Crafter, Merchant, Crew Leader, or where they fell in the Family pecking order?
So you walk up and say, "Excuse me (honorific/honorificess)?" Or are they not afforded any additional nicety over another commoner as well?
I think I've gotten away with using "Merchant" in the past, Capital M. Hopefully it's read as injecting a proper gravitas in to the word, reflecting my PC's knowledge that this is a member of a Great Merchant House and not some rug-squatting bazaar swindler.
Always switched to the proper Job Title once it's known, at least for formal addressing.
Quote from: Armaddict on December 29, 2016, 03:45:21 PM
QuoteI do find it amusing that we're discussing proper title usage
I find it amusing that -this- was worthy of staff deliberation and action. Mister and Miss. Totally srs bizness. Was breaking the theme. Hard. Needed to be nipped on the bud now, before it spread like a plague across the playerbase.
What you might not realize is that just yesterday I told someone in-game to refer to someone else as "Miss" whenever out in public. So maybe it was observed.
I get the fact that it's easier to just post an announcement before it spreads too far. And that's cool.
But what I'd like is a replacement. I can use replacements. Could we have some sort of general thread where everyone posts common phrases in use in the various cities? Like spicers in Red Storm say "Wormshit" as a curse or people from Luir's say something is as "solid as the shield wall" to refer to something old and durable, or trustworthy.
Not using honorifics is a very Allanak-sounding rule when half the game takes place outside of the walls.
QuoteNot using honorifics is a very Allanak-sounding rule when half the game takes place outside of the walls.
Valid.
I guess people elsewhere also refuse to acknowledge each other unless they know a title already or a name.
We've had a couple of threads addressing "idioms" specifically. There may be more out there under different keywords.
Idiom
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,24312.0.html
Idioms in Zalanthas
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,30749.0.html
Zalanthan Idioms
http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48627.0.html
Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 29, 2016, 03:54:28 PM
I think I've gotten away with using "Merchant" in the past, Capital M. Hopefully it's read as injecting a proper gravitas in to the word, reflecting my PC's knowledge that this is a member of a Great Merchant House and not some rug-squatting bazaar swindler.
Always switched to the proper Job Title once it's known, at least for formal addressing.
I was always under the assumption that 'Merchant', 'Agent' and 'Advisor' are perfectly fine.
Edit to add: 'Overseer' as well.
What would be a proper one to use if you meet a pretty non-descript person and you can't tell their title from what they're wearing/looking like and you want to maintain some civility?
'Hey you' sounds a bit rude..
'Excuse me, sir/ma'am' was a pretty good one for me to use :(
The churlishness and snideness several posters have displayed in this thread has reinforced an opinion I'm becoming more convinced of: the GDB is a community not really worth reading or participating in. It's better to just play the game and pretend people don't act like this.
Quote from: Malken on December 29, 2016, 04:13:36 PM
What would be a proper one to use if you meet a pretty non-descript person and you can't tell their title from what they're wearing/looking like and you want to maintain some civility?
'Hey you' sounds a bit rude..
'Excuse me, sir/ma'am' was a pretty good one for me to use :(
I'd just go with 'excuse me'. Doesn't seem rude without the sir / ma'am added.
Quote from: Akaramu on December 29, 2016, 04:15:51 PM
Quote from: Malken on December 29, 2016, 04:13:36 PM
What would be a proper one to use if you meet a pretty non-descript person and you can't tell their title from what they're wearing/looking like and you want to maintain some civility?
'Hey you' sounds a bit rude..
'Excuse me, sir/ma'am' was a pretty good one for me to use :(
I'd just go with 'excuse me'. Doesn't seem rude without the sir / ma'am added.
Oh yeah, duh :) Guess I'm too polite irl.
By the way, when I'm in the south of the USA, a lot of female cashiers and strangers call me 'honey', maybe you're just playing with a lot of southern Americans heheh
Quote from: Large Hero on December 29, 2016, 04:14:42 PM
The churlishness and snideness several posters have displayed in this thread has reinforced an opinion I'm becoming more convinced of: the GDB is a community not really worth reading or participating in. It's better to just play the game and pretend people don't act like this.
You'd get scolded for not knowing not to call people certain things if you didn't read the gdb though.
All of a sudden the stammering, but hard working kid telling the burly mercenary who strides past 'Yessir, I'll get outta the way' in response to his 'Fuck off' is bad roleplay.
Now, as per the documentation, you should be saying 'Yes mercenary' 'Yes human' or 'okay', none of which really sound that great as far as having the same feel.
Unless I'm overthinking it. Which is the standard response when you throw up documentation about unimportant things that won't matter anyway.
I think "sir" is still valid, actually. Which is all I would ever need.
People were saying earlier that Sir and Ma'am were included in the list.
Quote from: Armaddict on December 29, 2016, 04:28:12 PM
People were saying earlier that Sir and Ma'am were included in the list.
You can say sir but not Sir.
Quote from: Armaddict on December 29, 2016, 04:28:12 PM
People were saying earlier that Sir and Ma'am were included in the list.
From the new documentation,
Quote
Words like mister, miss, and madam are not derived from anything in Zalanthas. Master and mistress are only used if a slave must refer to their owner.
From Cayuga's original post:
Quotesir (exceptions being military clans),
So I think you could safely call a Mercenary a sir, since he's in a military clan. >.>
Personally I'm of a mind similar to Large Hero to not worry about the GDB. I'm just going to play the game and let it get sorted out in player complaints or account notes. I trust myself not to use titles egregiously or anachronistically.
I also think this sums up Cayuga's initial post and GDB reaction pretty well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BUnNfDCVWk
QuoteSo I think you could safely call a Mercenary a sir, since he's in a military clan. >.>
The 'except in military clans' makes the implied argument that it's an official 'real' title rather than an honorific, i.e. you are addressing a superior officer.
That implied argument goes away when it's from someone who is not an inferior in said clan, because that's all 'Sir' is in the first place unless you're referring to knighthood, which is -still- a military hat-tip of respect. That's no longer allowed by this unless it is an actual title assigned to that person.
QuoteI also think this sums up Cayuga's initial post and GDB reaction pretty well.
I'd agree, if the original statement was closer to 'I've decided that it's now wrong to drive within eight inches of the double line on the road.'
Could a master of martial arts be called master? Or a caravan master? While they may not be the master of a slave, they are the master of something, and be the reason someone is showing them respect by addressing them as such.
Quote from: Molten Heart on December 29, 2016, 04:39:20 PM
Could a master of martial arts be called master? Or a caravan master? While they may not be the master of a slave, they are the master of something, and be the reason someone is showing them respect by addressing them as such.
Who decides that so and so is a master of martial arts or a caravan master? It's not like there are guilds in-game where you get a certification of sort.
Quote from: Armaddict on December 29, 2016, 04:38:49 PM
QuoteI also think this sums up Cayuga's initial post and GDB reaction pretty well.
I'd agree, if the original statement was closer to 'I've decided that it's now wrong to drive within eight inches of the double line on the road.'
I think you really need a GDB break. You're being really ugly for no reason.
Quote from: Malken on December 29, 2016, 04:42:22 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on December 29, 2016, 04:39:20 PM
Could a master of martial arts be called master? Or a caravan master? While they may not be the master of a slave, they are the master of something, and be the reason someone is showing them respect by addressing them as such.
Who decides that so and so is a master of martial arts or a caravan master? It's not like there are guilds in-game where you get a certification of sort.
To me the term master denotes control or authority. So if someone is in control of or authority over something, that would make them a master.
[notserious]It's okay to call your mudsex partner master if you're into BDSM![/notserious]
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 04:43:26 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on December 29, 2016, 04:38:49 PM
QuoteI also think this sums up Cayuga's initial post and GDB reaction pretty well.
I'd agree, if the original statement was closer to 'I've decided that it's now wrong to drive within eight inches of the double line on the road.'
I think you really need a GDB break. You're being really ugly for no reason.
Oh don't be so ugly. The above is where I see the true comparison; overregulating on something that is not really creating a problem aside from a few things every now and again. I think I've been fairly straightforward, but that is not ugly. People saying 'Sir' or 'Miss' are not the equivalent of lawbreakers or drug dealers in a community. They're people drifting near a line without crossing it.
I'm sorry that I don't fulfill your expectation for the -correct- way to disagree, but after all, I -am- just taking a knee during the anthem to show that I think this is not going to work well, so to speak, with words to express why. You not liking the words doesn't refute them or make them wrong.
Quote from: Molten Heart on December 29, 2016, 04:45:08 PM
Quote from: Malken on December 29, 2016, 04:42:22 PM
Quote from: Molten Heart on December 29, 2016, 04:39:20 PM
Could a master of martial arts be called master? Or a caravan master? While they may not be the master of a slave, they are the master of something, and be the reason someone is showing them respect by addressing them as such.
Who decides that so and so is a master of martial arts or a caravan master? It's not like there are guilds in-game where you get a certification of sort.
To me the term master denotes control or authority. So if someone is in control of or authority over something, that would make them a master.
The new documentation is solely addressing the use of these words as honorifics in regards to societal rank. The words are not being expunged from the in-game dictionary. I think you could get away with calling a Caravan Master a Caravan Master as it's a job title. It might be even an official title within a Minor Merchant House dedicated to caravans.
Being a "Sword Master" is a trickier case to figure out, but they're so rare I'm not too worried about it. I'm sure referring to someone as a "master swordsman" because they can chop fuckers up really well with bone swords won't raise any eyebrows.
What BadSkeelz says is that we're actually going to be in the same boat as before, using common sense and good judgment the best you can, but with a new helpfile to argue about its context.
Totally better than a private communication.
And baiters? Is the term "master" still applicable for baiters???
Quote from: TheWanderer on December 29, 2016, 04:54:20 PM
And baiters? Is the term "master" still applicable for baiters???
As long as it ends in ah instead of er. Mastah Baitah. Or is that victorian/english? What is the typical sirihish accent in terms of typing it out? Can we document this?
Quote from: Armaddict on December 29, 2016, 04:48:40 PM
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 04:43:26 PM
Quote from: Armaddict on December 29, 2016, 04:38:49 PM
QuoteI also think this sums up Cayuga's initial post and GDB reaction pretty well.
I'd agree, if the original statement was closer to 'I've decided that it's now wrong to drive within eight inches of the double line on the road.'
I think you really need a GDB break. You're being really ugly for no reason.
Oh don't be so ugly. The above is where I see the true comparison; overregulating on something that is not really creating a problem aside from a few things every now and again. I think I've been fairly straightforward, but that is not ugly. People saying 'Sir' or 'Miss' are not the equivalent of lawbreakers or drug dealers in a community. They're people drifting near a line without crossing it.
I'm sorry that I don't fulfill your expectation for the -correct- way to disagree, but after all, I -am- just taking a knee during the anthem to show that I think this is not going to work well, so to speak, with words to express why. You not liking the words doesn't refute them or make them wrong.
Um. No. Sorry that it wrecks the ingenue cutesie characters' ability to appear childish in their appeal. But your every post in this thread is sarcastic and unnecessarily aggressive. It's not funny. You're coming across like a jerk.
Well.
I didn't resort to name-calling.
I'm sorry that I sound like a jerk to you and that you dislike criticism that isn't done the way you want it done.
Criticism doesn't have to be excessively mean or sarcastic. There's absolutely no field in life, besides politics, where I can think of where it's okay to bite down and make snide comments all of the time when something's going on that you dislike.
You're being excessive and it's frankly alarming. This was just a suggestion. They want us to move away from that speech in game. I fail to see how it's as world shattering as your responses make it out to be.
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 05:00:47 PM
Criticism doesn't have to be excessively mean or sarcastic. There's absolutely no field in life, besides politics, where I can think of where it's okay to bite down and make snide comments all of the time when something's going on that you dislike.
You're being excessive and it's frankly alarming. This was just a suggestion. They want us to move away from that speech in game. I fail to see how it's as world shattering as your responses make it out to be.
That's like. . your opinion, man.
Okay. I'll wait while you explain to me what place in life that insults and excessive sarcasm and unhappiness about a tweak in a game you play online is valid to fling around.
Because it's never fair to be that ugly. I don't know why everyone is so salty.
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 05:06:45 PM
Okay. I'll wait while you explain to me what place in life that insults and excessive sarcasm and unhappiness about a tweak in a game you play online is valid to fling around.
Because it's never fair to be that ugly. I don't know why everyone is so salty.
People don't generally like being told "you're doing It wrong" when "It" is something they've been doing without any apparent trouble for years. People react especially badly when told "some people are doing It wrong, and we're not going to say who," which just leads to people second-guessing themselves and getting defensive.
Armaddict's the most extreme and salty reaction, but the reaction itself shouldn't be surprising.
QuoteCayuga: I'm declaring war on gendered honorifics for commoner PCs.
Objecting Players: But Cayuga, I use gendered honorifics for commoner PCs!
Like most Rule Change GDB Tempests, we'll all just adapt and get on with our lives in a couple of days.
And I'll just be over here, sipping some water and trying to gingerly nudge the kids back into line.
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 05:17:55 PM
And I'll just be over here, sipping some water and trying to gingerly nudge the kids back into line.
Unless you mean YOUR kids, I found THAT comment more insulting than Armaddict's saltiness.
Don't need an internet mom and like hell am I going to be nudged.
Oh, Miradus. I just always try to be a mediating, gentle party. I'm not being mean about anything. Maybe you and I can talk sometime and then you'll realize I'm 95% of the time being humorous. :)
But, back into line: I think this is fine. I think that if we all have to tweak just a bit to make the world cooler, I'm for it.
As long as we can still use m8 in-game, I'm okay with the new changes.
u wot m8
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 05:06:45 PM
Okay. I'll wait while you explain to me what place in life that insults and excessive sarcasm and unhappiness about a tweak in a game you play online is valid to fling around.
Because it's never fair to be that ugly. I don't know why everyone is so salty.
Look at your language. Excessive. Never Fair. Ugly. Salty. AKA opinions. Also, people complaining about game changes? Besides porn, that's why the net was made.
I think you guys are overreacting and being really poor in your expression of your dissatisfaction.
Reiloth said that communication is a two way street via the request tool. I sure hope that's being used by us as players instead of posting on the GDB and acting like Zalanthas is shattered because we don't agree.
My thought is.. We have a highly opinionated and strong-willed player base. There's nothing wrong with that. It's that push that leads to creativity and awesome RP.
The issue here might in some instances an uneasy push back against being stifled. It's not so much a bad thing to be told that such and such doesn't fit with the game setting in and of itself. This is just a nudge saying what is not preferred, but as it stands, it might be leaving some at loose ends, "What the heck am I supposed to call this person?"
Things are being added to documentation, so as has been said, let's really fill that documentation out. Expand on the "What You Know" file and include cultural cues from each playable locale. Badskeelz pointed out some threads and having things like that documented instead of scattered on the forums would be helpful to new and old players as well as give us neat easter egg docs to play with.
Maybe opening up the floor to dialog about acceptable alternatives might help? The way I see the game may be different from others, but I have seen it as.. you can weave things into the narrative of the world. Phrases and attitudes, fashion trends and fads. "Big" wasn't popular, but it was a part of the lexicon for a while. And it was Zalanthan. Let's have more of that and sort it out IG when we think something is dumb.
(http://i.imgur.com/xFYRaYf.gif)
On titles, well... People actually kinda like having a polite address for others. Yes, we're all dirty commoners in the eyes of the templarate or the nobility, but that is not how we in the trenches see each other. It could be something commoners never do in front of the upper class, their secret between each other.
Things are heated on both sides of the argument so maybe we can just find a way to stand on opposite sides and still agree on how to handle it.
And wow, you guys posted a lot since I started this post.. yeesh.
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 05:25:16 PM
Oh, Miradus. I just always try to be a mediating, gentle party. I'm not being mean about anything. Maybe you and I can talk sometime and then you'll realize I'm 95% of the time being humorous. :)
But, back into line: I think this is fine. I think that if we all have to tweak just a bit to make the world cooler, I'm for it.
Alright. My apologies then. I don't know you and humor doesn't always come across well in the interwebs.
The change is half a gesture. I want the other half, is all. Something to say INSTEAD. Don't take away. REPLACE.
Because people have different forms of address in literally every culture. Some are honorific, some are just polite ways to address a stranger. In Chicago, "Hey buddy" isn't offensive. In Texas, it's not done so if you hear it then you're on your guard.
There's formal speech, informal speech, honorifics, etc. I can understand if the nobility in Allanak gets uppity because they hear a commoner given an honorific. The nobility there is like that. But as a blanket game rule it's really, really jarring and I feel like we need our own custom somehow to replace the anachronistic Western civilization one. Give me the Zalanthan version of "Waddup, Dawg?"
Because I freakin' know the next time I use "miss" in the Gaj there's going to be eight people OOC about how wrong I am and refer me to the helpfiles.
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 05:29:27 PM
I think you guys are overreacting and being really poor in your expression of your dissatisfaction.
Reiloth said that communication is a two way street via the request tool. I sure hope that's being used by us as players instead of posting on the GDB and acting like Zalanthas is shattered because we don't agree.
I think you are over reacting to a differing opinion and a little sarcasm. I hope you stop acting like Zalsnthas is shattered because someone dared to have an opinion and also dared to express it.
I completely agree and I think that the documentation you and WS want to see will go up. And maybe we should make suggestions here, or in requests, rather than dissolve into snarky comments on a post that makes staff unwilling to want to interact with us at all because we have such extreme dismay at such a ... neutral? initial post.
So, what do you guys think are appropriate titles to address people as? I usually just use names, or made up nicknames. Maybe that's a give as to who I'm playing, heh.
Quote from: GithMaster on December 29, 2016, 05:34:01 PM
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 05:29:27 PM
I think you guys are overreacting and being really poor in your expression of your dissatisfaction.
Reiloth said that communication is a two way street via the request tool. I sure hope that's being used by us as players instead of posting on the GDB and acting like Zalanthas is shattered because we don't agree.
I think you are over reacting to a differing opinion and a little sarcasm. I hope you stop acting like Zalsnthas is shattered because someone dared to have an opinion and also dared to express it.
Oh, sweetheart, the GDB isn't Zalanthas. I just want people to treat each other well out of game. In game? Treat 'em however you feel appropriate to your character. :)
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 05:35:43 PM
Quote from: GithMaster on December 29, 2016, 05:34:01 PM
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 05:29:27 PM
I think you guys are overreacting and being really poor in your expression of your dissatisfaction.
Reiloth said that communication is a two way street via the request tool. I sure hope that's being used by us as players instead of posting on the GDB and acting like Zalanthas is shattered because we don't agree.
I think you are over reacting to a differing opinion and a little sarcasm. I hope you stop acting like Zalsnthas is shattered because someone dared to have an opinion and also dared to express it.
Oh, sweetheart, the GDB isn't Zalanthas. I just want people to treat each other well out of game. In game? Treat 'em however you feel appropriate to your character. :)
Stop being a condescending jerk and it might help.
I'm not. I'm sorry that you're reading it that way. I really hope you have a good day. Light and love.
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 05:35:09 PM
So, what do you guys think are appropriate titles to address people as? I usually just use names, or made up nicknames. Maybe that's a give as to who I'm playing, heh.
I think the real grey area is the time
before we learn a PC's name or even proper title. That's where sir, miss, mister, master, etc. came in handy.
For commoners I would use "sir" for military authority figures, or anyone who could reasonably kick my ass and I want to show deference to (i.e. Miradus' "Grebber with a big sword"). If I think they're a Merchant House member, I'll use Merchant or the family name I think is correct.
"Stump," "breed," "necker," and "fuckface" should cover the rest of the bases.
I guess I just ask names right away. Or I've always referred to them by their associations. "Amos' breedy friend. Amos' blond friend. What's their name? What the fuck do they do?"
I suppose I see it was far less limiting because of my play style. I just can't comprehend how this could limit someone's play.
Why is this an announcement even an issue? Staff is just pointing out something, deal with it if it applies to you. If not, carry on.
One area where a substitute would be wanted: when you play a character who wants to show a modicum of respect yet also is not aware of all the fine-grained titles -- so a feckless commoner, maybe, or a rinther, or a tribal vis-a-vis, say, a soldier or someone who might seem like an aide.
So here's the example:
You: A rinther who dosn't know Private from Corporal from Sergeant or Overseer from Agent from Aide from Merchant.
Them: A pretty well dressed person at the bar named Bob.
Example one:
You: Hello, Mister Bob.
Them: Well, you are gross but at least you know your place.
Example two:
You: Hello, Bob.
Them: Show some respect!
(http://weknowmemes.com/generator/uploads/generated/g1425243748401459496.jpg)
Quote from: nauta on December 29, 2016, 05:48:42 PM
One area where a substitute would be wanted: when you play a character who wants to show a modicum of respect yet also is not aware of all the fine-grained titles -- so a feckless commoner, maybe, or a rinther, or a tribal vis-a-vis, say, a soldier or someone who might seem like an aide.
Try "Sexy."
Miss was used regularly for several of the big time mover-shaker common women in years past. Wasn't anything wrong with it. It was actually kinda great, to be able to show some measure of respect to someone wealthy enough to show up a borsail but still born of common stock. The connection to the word's RL meaning made it easy. no help files, no documentation, no world building necessary.
That's part of what irks me about this. While it'd be cool to have a similar set of words for each culture, derived from more world-appropriate roles, that's taking worldbuilding to annoying levels. Some of you may have read some of the demon cycle by peter Brett. In the latest one, he introduces so many unnecessary culture-specific phrases, ranks, and honorifics, that at one point the reader has to slog through an entire paragraph in which almost half of the words are made up and they all sound pretty much the same because desert culture y'all.
Instead, please just undo this whole thing and delete that help file. We don't need new words for western honorifics any more than we need new sirihish words for him, her, or it, which we MUST use. And if you believe that a culture in which most everyone is (supposedly) dirt poor and unimportant wouldn't still have its own ways to politely/respectfully address superior men and women, you don't understand civilization.
Please no just leave it alone.
We aren't introducing new words, simply excluding a few that don't really make sense in Zalanthan culture.
Quote from: Nergal on December 29, 2016, 06:09:08 PM
We aren't introducing new words, simply excluding a few that don't really make sense in Zalanthan culture.
A problem with this approach was highlighted by Miradus and Bahliker (whose post I also happen to agree with).
Quote from: Bahliker on December 29, 2016, 06:03:00 PM
And if you believe that a culture in which most everyone is (supposedly) dirt poor and unimportant wouldn't still have its own ways to politely/respectfully address superior men and women, you don't understand civilization.
The reasoning behind the removal of these honorifics seems to be that "commoners see each other fundamentally as equals." This just doesn't make sense when you think about interactions in game between various social groups. Southsiders look down on rinthis, a GMH Family Member is clearly not on the same social standing as a Meleth's circle beggar, etc. Terms like Miss and Mister allowed shorthand acknowledgement of a person's superior ranking in life. Using them makes more sense than
not using them, and Zalanthas having no local equivalent to such generic honorifics.
Addressing each other by their race or job title can fill the gap, but they don't automatically convey the same amount of respect and deference that honorifics do. Maybe you're hoping that in time they will, but for the moment by dictating that "All commoners are equal and see each other as equal and unworthy of honorifics" you're kinda godmoding our characters.
Got that, nergal. I'm saying, if you don't introduce new ones (glad you're not) then don't mess with the ones that are already in place. At most, clarify and define their roles within zalanthan cultures. So what if they came from an era of earth civilization that you feel shouldn't be mirrored on zalanthas? Every single word my character speaks is English, even when he speaks Allundean. The word is there for the player's benefit.
If your reasoning is that every commoner sees every other commoner as an equally worthless nobody in all circumstances except official military ranks, and also that nobles never see it in their best interest to treat influential commoners with respect, and finally that there's no need for words to represent these things, you're flat out wronnng.
I find this new restriction disappointing and nitpicky. While honorifics aren't something I've done, I've never felt upset by seeing them in game. Once we get into this judgemental space where other players are not living up to our standards or begin irritating us, why aren't we just writing by ourselves?
These kinds of trends ebb and flow and I think that process is part of what eventually leads Zalanthas to have it's own strong, individual culture over time. That flux is part of the realism.
It seems like what this is really about is an undocumented middle class being played out. I'd rather see a thread about how we can work to exemplify the filthsome, gritty commoner realized in all it's Zalanthan glory. How can we be dirtier, less educated and common?
The reason I take exception to this announcement is pretty simple.
A - It was made to seem like it was 'always this way', when that wasn't the case.
B - Documentation to support the change wasn't yet written when the change was announced.
C - People who used these honorifics in game weren't told it wasn't preferred, until it was publicly announced 'this is not preferred, Staff don't like it, don't do it'. It makes players who were using such honorifics feel like perhaps they were under negative scrutiny, or they're having Staff comment on how they play.
D - It isn't a big deal, I agree. I certainly won't use the honorifics anymore, that's not a problem. I too would prefer there be a replacement rather than arbitrarily deciding 'Sirihish and Allanak don't have room for honorifics or gender indicating nouns, even though every other language in the world has some form of it.' But you know what -- It's fine. Staff are who they are, and they want the game world to be what it is. They have policy to dictate how they do things -- I just may not agree with how this was implemented or rolled out. I find a curtsey more anachronistic than 'Mister or Miss', but that's just me.
It's Staff's sandbox. I just play in it. I have strong opinions -- I hope I expressed them civilly.
I don't think anyone's going to point the karma-docking gun at you and threaten your livelihood if you use terms appropriately. I definitely do see where this is coming from, however. Being an avid breed player, I have been called Mister/Miss multiple times over the last -month- of play. As a breed. I have to imagine that's the sort of target this post was pointed at, not you're 1% argument of talking to someone of supreme import.
Quote from: Bahliker on December 29, 2016, 06:03:00 PM
It was actually kinda great, to be able to show some measure of respect to someone wealthy enough to show up a borsail but still born of common stock.
Ideally this should never happen. If someone is showing up a Borsail
ever, they should be dealt with in a public and bloody way. Like the cuddler. Wealth shouldn't be protection against blood.
/derail
Quote from: bcw81 on December 29, 2016, 06:24:38 PM
I don't think anyone's going to point the karma-docking gun at you and threaten your livelihood if you use terms appropriately. I definitely do see where this is coming from, however. Being an avid breed player, I have been called Mister/Miss multiple times over the last -month- of play. As a breed. I have to imagine that's the sort of target this post was pointed at, not you're 1% argument of talking to someone of supreme import.
That hasn't really been brought up, and it's a good point. If there was more nuance behind a decision like this (The honorifics aren't one day there and the next day blown up), but it was implied that using honorifics for people that clearly don't deserve them is tantamount to Mundanes hanging out with Gemmers all the time...That makes more sense. It's less binary. It's more real, and less forced.
It just isn't how it is on the ground. Not all Commoners are equal, and not all Commoners consider each other equals. Nobles and Templars absolutely think all Commoners are equal (and equally Common), but within the social class of Commoner, it really isn't the case. If Staff wants it to be the case...I don't know what to say really. Honorifics were a way of projecting that acknowledgement that 'You aren't the Scum on the Boot'. Many complex languages in our real world have whole types of grammar devoted to honorifics and the complexities therein. Of course, Sirihish, and Allanaki Sirihish, is probably a far shot from this. But not having any honorifics (or choosing not to use them) seems incredibly alien.
Quote from: bcw81 on December 29, 2016, 06:24:38 PM
I don't think anyone's going to point the karma-docking gun at you and threaten your livelihood if you use terms appropriately. I definitely do see where this is coming from, however. Being an avid breed player, I have been called Mister/Miss multiple times over the last -month- of play. As a breed. I have to imagine that's the sort of target this post was pointed at, not you're 1% argument of talking to someone of supreme import.
This sounds more like a problem of people not understanding racial docs and being insufficiently prejudiced (assuming your breed isn't being called "Miss/Mister" by close acquaintances who might have IC justification for the unusual level of respect).
Words don't screw up proper social interaction, players do.
Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 29, 2016, 06:30:48 PM
Quote from: bcw81 on December 29, 2016, 06:24:38 PM
I don't think anyone's going to point the karma-docking gun at you and threaten your livelihood if you use terms appropriately. I definitely do see where this is coming from, however. Being an avid breed player, I have been called Mister/Miss multiple times over the last -month- of play. As a breed. I have to imagine that's the sort of target this post was pointed at, not you're 1% argument of talking to someone of supreme import.
This sounds more like a problem of people not understanding racial docs and being insufficiently prejudiced (assuming your breed isn't being called "Miss/Mister" by close acquaintances who might have IC justification for the unusual level of respect).
Words don't screw up proper social interaction, players do.
And it's been happening a lot, in my recentish play. I won't get into specifics, but the above example is just one of weird, eye-widening things I've seen occur in game in regards to honorifics. It's not a gender thing. It's a, 'why the fuck are you treating this piece of shit with respect when they're no better than (and in a lot of cases lesser than) you?'
I don't know if you realize, but for some cultures, using that formal language with someone "Miss/Mister/Sir/Ma'am" is a way of holding them off and saying "don't get informal with me, scum."
Like the Queen of England calling her serving girl "Miss". Nobody is going to suspect that the Queen is showing the serving girl respect. It's just a cultural way of setting boundaries.
Seems like something you should file a player complaint over. And I agree with BadSkeelz, it seems like a problem in play/perception between racial docs and just 'docs in general'. The honorific in that scenario wouldn't bother me nearly at all, it would be the treatment.
Maybe your PC doesn't know the story behind the equality or politeness Boog, I have no idea though of course. I agree these titles have no place IG, but I barely ever have seen them used in my years of play and never have felt anachronistic when they are.
Sir for officers has been used a decent amount, but using the rank instead should be fine.
"You over there!" Works for everyone ;)
Anachronistic? Seriously? Let's see. Stockings. Spike-heeled sexy thigh-high boots. "Bodice-Suits." Chicken McNuggets, poorly disguised as raptor meat. Leather mini-skirts. S&M-style "toy" whips. Beaded satin evening gowns.
We've put up with these - and many of them are relatively new additions to the game. And there's a problem with saying "Hey mister, someone just stole your pack" ??
To be fair, raptor nuggets aren't breaded or fried, though. :( They're just spiced.
Quote from: Lizzie on December 29, 2016, 06:42:47 PM
Anachronistic? Seriously? Let's see. Stockings. Spike-heeled sexy thigh-high boots. "Bodice-Suits." Chicken McNuggets, poorly disguised as raptor meat. Leather mini-skirts. S&M-style "toy" whips. Beaded satin evening gowns.
We've put up with these - and many of them are relatively new additions to the game. And there's a problem with saying "Hey mister, someone just stole your pack" ??
+1
Quote from: boog on December 29, 2016, 06:44:10 PM
To be fair, raptor nuggets aren't breaded or fried, though. :( They're just spiced.
One of mine had a little paw.
Raptors don't have paws.
#Don'tTrustKuraci
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 06:36:33 PM
Seems like something you should file a player complaint over. And I agree with BadSkeelz, it seems like a problem in play/perception between racial docs and just 'docs in general'. The honorific in that scenario wouldn't bother me nearly at all, it would be the treatment.
I kind of wonder if someone did, and that's how we have this thread.
Quote from: bcw81 on December 29, 2016, 06:46:50 PM
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 06:36:33 PM
Seems like something you should file a player complaint over. And I agree with BadSkeelz, it seems like a problem in play/perception between racial docs and just 'docs in general'. The honorific in that scenario wouldn't bother me nearly at all, it would be the treatment.
I kind of wonder if someone did, and that's how we have this thread.
If it was a one off, it probably was (should have?) been dealt with via Requests. A general reminder suggests it (whatever "it" is) was more widespread.
It's still a case of attacking the symptom without treating the disease.
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 06:44:22 PM
Quote from: Lizzie on December 29, 2016, 06:42:47 PM
Anachronistic? Seriously? Let's see. Stockings. Spike-heeled sexy thigh-high boots. "Bodice-Suits." Chicken McNuggets, poorly disguised as raptor meat. Leather mini-skirts. S&M-style "toy" whips. Beaded satin evening gowns.
We've put up with these - and many of them are relatively new additions to the game. And there's a problem with saying "Hey mister, someone just stole your pack" ??
+1
+2
Is this just for Allanak, or is this everywhere in Zalanthas?
How is this even a fucking problem? How is this even a discussion?
Staff said don't do it, so don't fucking do it. Leave the freaking out about incredibly minor shit to me, you're all a bunch of amateurs.
I've used miss and mister on several of my more upstanding characters. But I'm not terribly bothered by the change.
Quote from: Lizzie on December 29, 2016, 06:42:47 PM
Anachronistic? Seriously? Let's see. Stockings. Spike-heeled sexy thigh-high boots. "Bodice-Suits." Chicken McNuggets, poorly disguised as raptor meat. Leather mini-skirts. S&M-style "toy" whips. Beaded satin evening gowns.
We've put up with these - and many of them are relatively new additions to the game. And there's a problem with saying "Hey mister, someone just stole your pack" ??
"You shouldn't change X because Y, Z and Q are also problems" is a poor argument against changing X.
Before someone says that they don't think X should have been changed (in this case the mister/miss stuff), that isn't germane to the argument I quoted.
With that, I'm off to not post on or read the GDB anymore for a while. I think I'll play Armageddon instead.
Quote from: Malifaxis on December 29, 2016, 06:55:45 PM
Leave the freaking out about incredibly minor shit to me, you're all a bunch of amateurs.
This cheered me up. Haha. Thanks, Malifaxis.
Quote from: Large Hero on December 29, 2016, 07:04:00 PM
Quote from: Malifaxis on December 29, 2016, 06:55:45 PM
Leave the freaking out about incredibly minor shit to me, you're all a bunch of amateurs.
This cheered me up. Haha. Thanks, Malifaxis.
Me too. I almost sent a PM but then I saw I was at my limit for the hour. Dangit.
just chiming in to say I think for the last 7 or so years I've played I have never heard routine use of mister or miss before a name, and that I have been told many times by other players not to use such titles EXCEPT for Sir and the other exceptions above in military groups.
I.e., the staff announcement didn't surprise me at all, just confirmed a convention I've long been following.
As for some of the specifics, well, there's gonna be wiggle room and slight exceptions. I don't think the announcement was meant as a big deal, I think some peeps are turning this into one or trying to but they are taking too close a look at the original intent of the announcement.
I've used the words on a couple of my concepts, usually as a term of endearment and respect to a fellow commoner when nobody of importance was around. The more I think about it, the more the words don't belong in the game. I won't use them in game on future concepts.
Whew, that was hard...
If you think belittling people who raised concerns about a topic on the game's DISCUSSION forum is useful then that's a problem.
Staff made an announcement. Some players raised objections and made points of varying degrees of validity.
Dogpiling on that you agree with the authority is just sycophantic. If it doesn't bother you then fine.
How this is an issue either way baffles me. Who cares? Miss Soanso versus Junior Bone Merchant, 3rd rank, Amos.
I find nitpicky rules far more jarring than saying 'Hello Miss Kadius' or whatever else.
Quote from: Malifaxis on December 29, 2016, 06:55:45 PM
How is this even a fucking problem? How is this even a discussion?
Staff said don't do it, so don't fucking do it. Leave the freaking out about incredibly minor shit to me, you're all a bunch of amateurs.
This was my precise thought reading the thread.
The way in which some players approached the discussion is what was the issue - no one is debating whether players should have their say on the topic. Wouldn't hurt for some people to be polite in their approach to feedback every now and then :)
I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on the new helpfile or the change itself, but I guess I have to voice something about the method.
Were I one of the players involved, I'd feel pretty picked on by that post. I can imagine the players involved don't feel great. That kind of sucks, especially if they weren't asked privately to knock it off.
It's important to remember that other people can't see our intentions, so even though it was a well-meaning reminder I can easily see why some people might be a little upset by or feel chastised by the post. Especially since people have been saying crap like Mister/Miss/etc for years and nobody cared.
When you get right down to it, Armageddon's playerbase is pretty small, and a lot of us have been playing for quite a while. If someone's been playing for years and nobody batted a lash when they dropped an occasional 'Mister,' then suddenly they feel they're the subject of what's essentially a staff call-out post, then yeah, I can see why feathers would be ruffled. Especially since it's something that identifies certain characters, in a way.
It's pretty hard to tell someone "look, I just posted on the GDB a thing that essentially identifies your character, calls them out on poor RP, and didn't even privately suggest you do otherwise" and then also say "but don't take it personally."
Just my two cents. Remember there's an actual person behind everybody ingame, and it's pretty easy for people to feel singled-out even when that was not the intention.
Quote from: Malifaxis on December 29, 2016, 06:55:45 PM
How is this even a fucking problem? How is this even a discussion?
Staff said don't do it, so don't fucking do it. Leave the freaking out about incredibly minor shit to me, you're all a bunch of amateurs.
Blaze, I will do 2 things when the game administrators make a bad change to game docs:
1. I will abide by the docs. That's how you play this game.
2. I will object and discuss until no one has anything left to say.
Especially in a community in which many of us flip-flop between staffer and player, in which some of the past and current administration can't combine enough of their years of play to equal that of many current players, it's important to make our opinions heard. Sorry, I don't subscribe to this "it's the staff's sandbox" point of view. Factually true but the mentality is unhealthy for a small mud.
That's how it's even a discussion.
Um.. What.
I mean, I don't.. I don't even know how I'd play around this one, truthfully.
Suppose I start out as some poor nobody from Yaroch, having plowed fields for twenty years, now in Allanak. I have no connections, no job, I'm dirty as fuck, hungry, emaciated, thirsty, and I'm currently talking to someone who runs a succesful trade operation, commands two dozen employees, drinks wine everyday and weighs twice as much as I do... But I don't call them 'sir' or 'miss' because some fancy people I've never even seen look down on me?
I'm not sure I can do that. Not out of some moral objection or anything, just immersion-wise, I don't see myself remembering this. I'm going to be as respectful as I can manage to that person. Person holds me up in the sands, I don't have a coin to spare to them.. But I'm not going to show respect?
Look, I'm sorry, but I can't. I know in advance this is something I can't adhere to, just because of how foreign it all sounds. I can try, and I'll do my best, but I predict many a future slip on my behalf for this.
I'm not sure why this is worthy a staff announcement anyhow, but then this topic seems rage-y enough as it is.
Quote from: Fathi on December 29, 2016, 08:04:46 PM
I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on the new helpfile or the change itself, but I guess I have to voice something about the method.
Were I one of the players involved, I'd feel pretty picked on by that post. I can imagine the players involved don't feel great. That kind of sucks, especially if they weren't asked privately to knock it off.
It's important to remember that other people can't see our intentions, so even though it was a well-meaning reminder I can easily see why some people might be a little upset by or feel chastised by the post. Especially since people have been saying crap like Mister/Miss/etc for years and nobody cared.
When you get right down to it, Armageddon's playerbase is pretty small, and a lot of us have been playing for quite a while. If someone's been playing for years and nobody batted a lash when they dropped an occasional 'Mister,' then suddenly they feel they're the subject of what's essentially a staff call-out post, then yeah, I can see why feathers would be ruffled. Especially since it's something that identifies certain characters, in a way.
It's pretty hard to tell someone "look, I just posted on the GDB a thing that essentially identifies your character, calls them out on poor RP, and didn't even privately suggest you do otherwise" and then also say "but don't take it personally."
Just my two cents. Remember there's an actual person behind everybody ingame, and it's pretty easy for people to feel singled-out even when that was not the intention.
Yea... this.
read dark sun. what do dark sun characters call eachother? there is our answer.
Quote from: 650Booger on December 29, 2016, 08:34:48 PM
read dark sun. what do dark sun characters call eachother? there is our answer.
For anyone who doesn't feel like reading some crappy novels (that's what I heard anyway), could you give us the answer?
Quote from: Delirium on December 29, 2016, 08:30:14 PM
Quote from: Fathi on December 29, 2016, 08:04:46 PM
I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on the new helpfile or the change itself, but I guess I have to voice something about the method.
Were I one of the players involved, I'd feel pretty picked on by that post. I can imagine the players involved don't feel great. That kind of sucks, especially if they weren't asked privately to knock it off.
It's important to remember that other people can't see our intentions, so even though it was a well-meaning reminder I can easily see why some people might be a little upset by or feel chastised by the post. Especially since people have been saying crap like Mister/Miss/etc for years and nobody cared.
When you get right down to it, Armageddon's playerbase is pretty small, and a lot of us have been playing for quite a while. If someone's been playing for years and nobody batted a lash when they dropped an occasional 'Mister,' then suddenly they feel they're the subject of what's essentially a staff call-out post, then yeah, I can see why feathers would be ruffled. Especially since it's something that identifies certain characters, in a way.
It's pretty hard to tell someone "look, I just posted on the GDB a thing that essentially identifies your character, calls them out on poor RP, and didn't even privately suggest you do otherwise" and then also say "but don't take it personally."
Just my two cents. Remember there's an actual person behind everybody ingame, and it's pretty easy for people to feel singled-out even when that was not the intention.
Yea... this.
Quote from: Fathi on December 29, 2016, 08:04:46 PM
I don't really have an opinion one way or the other on the new helpfile or the change itself, but I guess I have to voice something about the method.
Were I one of the players involved, I'd feel pretty picked on by that post. I can imagine the players involved don't feel great. That kind of sucks, especially if they weren't asked privately to knock it off.
It's important to remember that other people can't see our intentions, so even though it was a well-meaning reminder I can easily see why some people might be a little upset by or feel chastised by the post. Especially since people have been saying crap like Mister/Miss/etc for years and nobody cared.
When you get right down to it, Armageddon's playerbase is pretty small, and a lot of us have been playing for quite a while. If someone's been playing for years and nobody batted a lash when they dropped an occasional 'Mister,' then suddenly they feel they're the subject of what's essentially a staff call-out post, then yeah, I can see why feathers would be ruffled. Especially since it's something that identifies certain characters, in a way.
It's pretty hard to tell someone "look, I just posted on the GDB a thing that essentially identifies your character, calls them out on poor RP, and didn't even privately suggest you do otherwise" and then also say "but don't take it personally."
Just my two cents. Remember there's an actual person behind everybody ingame, and it's pretty easy for people to feel singled-out even when that was not the intention.
100% spot on Fathi, this is EXACTLY how I feel, as someone who has used these terms on and off for over a decade, with some of my characters, and no one has ever sent me an OOC note asking me to stop, or criticizing me for using it, or pointing out that there was anything wrong with it. I've never received a player complaint that I'm aware of regarding the use of these terms.
In addition - the bolded part - it wasn't a reminder. That's what got Reiloth upset. Cayuga specified that this was a reminder - and even the title of the announcement post specifies that it's a reminder. Reminder - implies that we knew about this previously, and we're being reminded of something that we already knew.
There hasn't ever been any official anything from anyone saying that there was ever anything wrong with using these terms (in particular - mister and miss). So it's not a reminder of anything.
I dont know. The honorifics can be used in other things then just ranking position. A young pup talking to an elder. A boyfriend taking the daughter out for the first time and dealing with her parents for the first time. A guest in somebody else's domain. A word that signifies respect, when the person's political position, nature, or even profession is simply an unknown.
Don't like sir/ma'am? Make up your own.
Which I guess what the staff said as far as "following cues of the playerbase". So sir/ma'am/miss have been forbidden.
Do we have a Fale/Kadii in game, or not? Go make some trends!
For the record though. I have never used the words sir/ma'am/miss due to the fact that I felt they were anachronisms. I never gave a shit about others using it, nor have I read not to use them from some code. Nobody ever told me to not do it. It just felt weird for me. I would never say the words, "It's my right!" as a commoner either. It's not Zalanthasy.
But I also played Castle Morrach at the time, where they used the words like ser/sera instead of sir/ma'am/miss. So I notice that distinction pretty well.
There should be some kind of generic honorific to address commoners of statue and authority, even if nobles/templars get pissy or jealous. Nobles and templars only live in a small portion of the game world and I wonder if the rest of the world even cares who uses what kind of titles.
We posted a preference with regards to terms being used by several players. Our intention was to set a clear expectation with regards to a behavior that we, as staff, find jarring and inappropriate for the setting. We didn't anticipate that people's feelings would be hurt and we're apologetic for that. We only ask that you extend to us the same kindness that we give to you with this apology.
In the future, we'll consider more personalized corrections, but this was a widespread enough issue that we felt a general announcement was in order to address and perhaps curb the behavior appropriately.
Cool. Sounds settled to me!
Yes, thank you.
Quote from: Bahliker on December 29, 2016, 08:14:55 PM
Quote from: Malifaxis on December 29, 2016, 06:55:45 PM
How is this even a fucking problem? How is this even a discussion?
Staff said don't do it, so don't fucking do it. Leave the freaking out about incredibly minor shit to me, you're all a bunch of amateurs.
Blaze, I will do 2 things when the game administrators make a bad change to game docs:
1. I will abide by the docs. That's how you play this game.
2. I will object and discuss until no one has anything left to say.
Especially in a community in which many of us flip-flop between staffer and player, in which some of the past and current administration can't combine enough of their years of play to equal that of many current players, it's important to make our opinions heard. Sorry, I don't subscribe to this "it's the staff's sandbox" point of view. Factually true but the mentality is unhealthy for a small mud.
That's how it's even a discussion.
I get that. But here's the thing. This is so, so, so absurdly minor. This literally does not matter. To put it in perspective:
Sandwiches.
Anyone remember sandwiches? WAAAY back in the past? Most of them were buried, and they're turning slowly to lamp oil. Sandwiches were another minor thing that staff said "Uh, nope. Sorry guys." And man, people lost their shit.
Lost.
Their.
Shit.
But in the end, sandwiches were removed. Too anachronistic. But the nuggets remained. Katanas do not exist... but rapiers made of BONE do?
How many of us have thrown rocks? Show of hands?
Alright, most of you. Great.
Anyone ever had one come back? Show of hands?
Yet a fucking mantis can pick up a palm sized chunk of crystal and carve it into a multi-armed death spinnythingy and hurl it hundreds of feet and have it return?!
The truth is we win some, we lose some. Bones made of rapier are cool. Sandwiches? Also cool. Katanas? Fucking RAD! But nope. Can't have them. I can live with that, because my character can throw a multi-armed death spinnythingy hundreds of feet and have it return.
And since I've already typed all this other bullshit, I'll go all AngelaChristine and bust out some fucking facts:
Mister was a term that was only invented in the 1600s. 1600s, guys. 1600s had like, cannons and fucking astronomy, and all sorts of crazy learned monks all over. Miss? Same thing. 1600s.
The terms are derived from Master and Mistress. You want to use something, those aren't on the list. Use them. But make sure the fuckers are important.
Now.... because I *always* love arming both sides of the fight, here's another tidbit:
Lord? Started coming into heavy use in the 1300s. Also not that ancient.
300 years is a lot, but it's an interesting point at which year we want to truly draw the anachronistic line.
Personally... fuck this discussion. I've got other shit to worry about, like how to make a mastercrafter so good he can take scrab shit and make it into flower scented hairgel. If this is the kind of thing you want to spend your night getting spun up over, bully to you.
On another RPI's forum that I will not name because it's not cool to do so, there's a whole thread against the use of "Hello" in game, so all things considered, this isn't so bad heheh.
I'm still mad that Cayuga called us kittens (an Old Norse euphemism for the receiving partner in a homosexual relationship). I don't know what they're trying to imply.
Quote from: Malifaxis on December 29, 2016, 10:38:28 PM
Malifaxis saying some stuff.
I respect you Mal. I'd read Fathi's post a couple pages back, (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52091.msg973920.html#msg973920) it's illuminating as to why it is (maybe) frustrating for players to find out their RP is considered in this way by Staff in this forum of discussion.
It's not a big deal, no. Cayuga apologized and got the gist of why some people were rankled at the way this was announced. It's remained mostly civil, and it's a discussion board for a reason -- People discuss.
Quote from: Nergal on December 29, 2016, 03:36:10 PM
I'm not sure how I could possibly be clearer. Once you do something in-game it's been witnessed by other players. It has the potential to spread. We can't contact you AND everyone you've ever interacted with in the time it would take to write an announcement and helpfile.
I haven't read past page 2, sorry, there's a database waiting for me out there and I'll have to brave the rain outside and resist my urge to stay in and play the game/with my kids and not let my husband down. He picked me to make the fixes and forced me into the project in the end. (They pay incredibly well, too, I confess)..
Sorry I'm a new player and I'm playing my first character. I must be one of the people who used "miss" and "sir" and "ma'am"
a lot. I just saw this post now. But there's one problem, what else should we use?
If there's person 'X' out there for whom I'm willing to show a little respect and I was German, I'd use 'Sie' instead of 'Du'. If I were Turkish, I'd say 'efendim/üstadım/azizim', which are gender-neutral identifications similar to 'sir/miss'.. If I were American, I'd call them 'sir/miss/ma'am/mister'.. Even in a modern world, with no nobility ranks, we'd use these. Those mean "you're more respectable than that dung-grebber stinking 'rinthi half-elf and I'm aware of it", not "you are a higher rank than ordinary commoners and should be given a title/priveledges".
What's the Zalanthan equivalent? What does a non-Bynner call a Byn Sergeant, or a non-military person call a military Corporal, or a merchant house member/agent/merchant? Or an aide to a noble?
I usually use their name. Or their title. Regardless of how familiar or unfamiliar they are, as a show of respect. If you're friendly with them, I imagine just their name would do.
Runner Amos.
Merchant Talia.
Sergeant Malik of the Mekillot Dicks.
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 11:22:42 PM
Quote from: Malifaxis on December 29, 2016, 10:38:28 PM
Malifaxis saying some stuff.
I respect you Mal. I'd read Fathi's post a couple pages back, (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52091.msg973920.html#msg973920) it's illuminating as to why it is (maybe) frustrating for players to find out their RP is considered in this way by Staff in this forum of discussion.
It's not a big deal, no. Cayuga apologized and got the gist of why some people were rankled at the way this was announced. It's remained mostly civil, and it's a discussion board for a reason -- People discuss.
I was inebriatred when I made that post. I was not as eloquent as was possible.
I'm more inebriated now so I'm just going to say I could have said that better and yeah discuss guys.
Quote from: Malifaxis on December 30, 2016, 01:21:31 AM
Quote from: Reiloth on December 29, 2016, 11:22:42 PM
Quote from: Malifaxis on December 29, 2016, 10:38:28 PM
Malifaxis saying some stuff.
I respect you Mal. I'd read Fathi's post a couple pages back, (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,52091.msg973920.html#msg973920) it's illuminating as to why it is (maybe) frustrating for players to find out their RP is considered in this way by Staff in this forum of discussion.
It's not a big deal, no. Cayuga apologized and got the gist of why some people were rankled at the way this was announced. It's remained mostly civil, and it's a discussion board for a reason -- People discuss.
I was inebriatred when I made that post. I was not as eloquent as was possible.
I'm more inebriated now so I'm just going to say I could have said that better and yeah discuss guys.
(http://weknowmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/i-know-that-feel.jpg)
Quote from: zztri on December 30, 2016, 01:04:11 AM
Quote from: Nergal on December 29, 2016, 03:36:10 PM
I'm not sure how I could possibly be clearer. Once you do something in-game it's been witnessed by other players. It has the potential to spread. We can't contact you AND everyone you've ever interacted with in the time it would take to write an announcement and helpfile.
I haven't read past page 2, sorry, there's a database waiting for me out there and I'll have to brave the rain outside and resist my urge to stay in and play the game/with my kids and not let my husband down. He picked me to make the fixes and forced me into the project in the end. (They pay incredibly well, too, I confess)..
Sorry I'm a new player and I'm playing my first character. I must be one of the people who used "miss" and "sir" and "ma'am" a lot. I just saw this post now. But there's one problem, what else should we use?
If there's person 'X' out there for whom I'm willing to show a little respect and I was German, I'd use 'Sie' instead of 'Du'. If I were Turkish, I'd say 'efendim/üstadım/azizim', which are gender-neutral identifications similar to 'sir/miss'.. If I were American, I'd call them 'sir/miss/ma'am/mister'.. Even in a modern world, with no nobility ranks, we'd use these. Those mean "you're more respectable than that dung-grebber stinking 'rinthi half-elf and I'm aware of it", not "you are a higher rank than ordinary commoners and should be given a title/priveledges".
What's the Zalanthan equivalent? What does a non-Bynner call a Byn Sergeant, or a non-military person call a military Corporal, or a merchant house member/agent/merchant? Or an aide to a noble?
Yes, I think it's pretty weird to act as if Zalanthas would not have general honorifics, which long predate modern times and exist in a variety of disparate civilizations. I suggest the staff read up about it at honorifics (linguistics) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorifics_(linguistics)). If we were trying to adapt English to some particular time period, perhaps we should start using thou and ye.
In other languages, there are different extensions of words to reflect "your vs. their" place and their gender. In English, it's limited.
Sure there's Master and Mistress but you won't ever see me using it, because -that- offends -me- (but no one's asked me about it, or forbidden it, or determined it was anachronistic in a game where PCs can't play slaves, and that this isn't a BDSM game, etc. etc. etc.)
In spanish, there's tu vs. usted. In french it's tu vs. vous. There's nosotros vs. vosotros (though the latter is somewhat archaic and not used very commonly anymore). In English there's sir/miss/ma'am.
They all mean "you" (and "we") but one is the familiar and the other is the formal, when one is NOT using actual formal titles (such as with people you are only meeting for the first time ever and have no idea if they even have a title, let alone what that title might be).
We don't have that familiar-vs-formal vernacular in Armageddon. Well, we did - except the staff has decreed that it is now suddenly against the rules. And the *reason* it's against the rules is "anachronistic." This is a really ridiculous reason. It's a really ridiculous reason because there are SO many other anachronisms in the game that have been around for so long, and have cropped up fairly recently, and are SO COMMON - and yet staff isn't attempting to put the kibosh on any of that. Instead, they're picking out something that doesn't get all that much use, and when it does, it is USUALLY used as intended (as a formal unfamiliar pronoun).
So here's my suggestion, filled with my obligatory snark of the month:
From now on, whenever you come across a situation where in real life you'd normally say "Oh miss..." or "Hey mister.." instead, call out "Oh shitheel" and "Hey fuckhead..."
See how that goes over.
I think that it is ridiculous that there are 7 pages (and counting) of this topic. Really, people?
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on December 30, 2016, 08:24:15 AM
I think that it is ridiculous that there are 7 pages (and counting) of this topic. Really, people?
If there's anything to be learned from the large discussion threads on losing sdesc keywords, sandwiches, classes, clans, cities, etc., it's that this community doesn't like things being taken from them without good reason.
Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on December 30, 2016, 08:24:15 AM
I think that it is ridiculous that there are 7 pages (and counting) of this topic. Really, people?
Yes. Read the thread if you want, or skip to page 7 and be dismissive.