Armageddon General Discussion Board

Topic is in the subject.  Discuss.

Dwarves and other hairless races obviously don't.

I don't know the answer but I'd like to think it is 'no' and not because I'm making a 'hairy-legged chick fetish' thread in the Idle OOC Chatter forum.

Seems like a lot of work to risk cutting yourself and getting an infection.  Sure men probably shave their face but that's a lot less skin to scrape a chunk of obsidian across.

Well there are lots of theories as to the whens and whys women (American women) started shaving, which was around the early 1900's.

Some people say it was due to prostitutes that wanted smooth legs without stockings.  Others say it was more so because of the hiked up skirts that became popular around WWII that looked silly with stockings.
Some say the trend started with the onset of the sleeveless dress styles of the 1920's, when women started to shave their underarms, and that just continued down to legs. And others still say it is because women feel it makes them look younger.

Who knows for certain why it came into fashion. But it certainly is a modern times habit.

My personal reason for shaving? I have black hair and pale skin.. It's an ugly combo on legs and underarms. Also my legs would look like black christmas trees if left to their own devices.

You may think all that sucks, but the upside is that I have awesomely thick, shiny hair that I can do just about anything with and even though I have to shave my legs twice a day, will never be one of those freaky bald ladies.

Would women of Zalanthas shave? They can't even shower. Men I can see, I mean we are speaking of a much smaller surface area. Women, taking time to shave their legs.. or underarms? Can't see it. It just seems too modern culture for me.

I say no.

I would like to think zalanthan women don't have hair on their legs.

Yes, that definitely is a relieving lie.

I imagine that women shave themselves about as much as men do.

I don't think hairlessness is as appreciated in Zalanthas as it is in here.  This goes for the pubic hair as well as the legs, and there is a simple reason - dwarves are completely hairless, and they're icky.
It's like you shouldn't get a tattoo of the Goatse Man on your lower stomach.  Just makes people tink of icky things and all in all it doesn't help much.  Hairy is good.

I would not put the "icky"ness of the dwarves all on their hairlessness.  Dwarves are short wide with thick muscles.. They look more like a boulder than a humanoid.
Besides, being comepletely bald is something different than not having hair or thick hair on legs/arms/chest.
Hair on zalanthas means more dust, more sand, more sweating. I don't think people would love hair.

As a general practice I would say no.  Although you may gag at a little stubble now, you probably wouldn't if no one had ever given you the idea that body hair was bad, dirty, unattractive, etc.  It is a cultural preference, nothing more.  (Sure, even in a hairy culture a few people would prefer hairlessness, but it would probably be considered a fetish.)

However both men and women might shave their body (and scalp!) hair in certain circumstances.  There could be ceremonial occasions, purification rituals, punishments and such that require shaving.  Shaving is also useful for avoiding or dealing with an infestation of lice or other parasites, although this would probably be used just on longer hair like scalp hair and pubic hair.  If you are living out of the Gaj or Byn dormitories then hairlessness would likely be the only way to avoid lice.  You've seen Zalanthan "ants," just imagine what their lice are like!


Angela Christine

Quote from: "JollyGreenGiant"Topic is in the subject.  Discuss.

Dwarves and other hairless races obviously don't.

 I would guess that body hair is something that isn't all that common... since various races haven't needed fur for warmth in a LOT longer then as on earth.

Quote from: "Larrath"I don't think hairlessness is as appreciated in Zalanthas as it is in here.  This goes for the pubic hair as well as the legs, and there is a simple reason - dwarves are completely hairless, and they're icky.

This is a pretty good point.  It stands to reason that shaving your legs would be seen as emulating dwarves.

Isn't leg shaving a mostly-western thing anyways?

Quote from: "HardCarbon"
 I would guess that body hair is something that isn't all that common... since various races haven't needed fur for warmth in a LOT longer then as on earth.

Do you really think your body hair keeps you warm? Do you think that is the only use for body hair?

Hair can be used for other good as well.. Eyelashes? Eyebrows? They aren't keeping your eyes warm are they? No.. they are shielding your eyes from the elements. Sun, dust, sand, dirt.. Hrm..

Actually, I would believe Zalanthans (men and women) shaving their pubic hair before their legs and their underarms. My sister did work in the Peace Corps in a country in which there was a severe lacking of clean bathing water. It was common practice to shave your naughties, because it helped keep them clean. It helped prevent infection and such in sensitive areas. I don't remember if they shaved their armpits or legs, though. I'm leaning towards no...

Regardless, one could make an arguement for cleanliness and coolness for shaving, but for the most part, that's probably just because most of us like smooth legs. :)

I'm just surprised and a little disappointed by the high number of "I don't want to know" responses.  This is from a crowd of people that goes on about how awesome torture is, and has occasional threads about innovative torture methods.  But are you guys really -still- that trapped in a suffocating American beauty standard that you *gasp* and worry that  "OMG she got hairy legs!!  Gross!!"

I'd venture to guess they shave their legs about as often as men do, which is to say, not very often at all.

upperclass roman women were expected to shave their legs and armpits...

but really, the only people I -might- see doing that in zalanthas is nobles, men and women alike, if at all. It would be both genders doing that. Not even RL men shave their legs today (unless they are professional cyclists or something of that sort) so I don't see why zalanthan men would be doing that.
Also, in some areas, people have much less hair around their arms and legs. Far east, japan, china... places like that. I don't know about black people, but the average white caucasian definitely has more body hair than other people... So since most people in zalanthas are dark skinned, I'd say some don't even grow leg hair, some have a little and most wouldn't care one bit about shaving. I can see armpit shaving maybe... If you don'T have deodorant available, no hair would lessen the smell... ;)

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Zalantahs woman (and men) have a minimal amount of body hair.  It isn't like they evolved with winters in mind.  It isn't unheard of for humans to have little hair on their bodies.  My girlfriend, who is of Taiwanese ancestry, only shaves her legs once every month and can do it less then five strokes.  She once went two or three months without shaving and I didn't notice until I was squinting at her legs and noticed a couple of pathetic hairs poking up.

I personally don't care either way though.  If the ladies want to emote out their big hair legs, more power to them.  If they want to say they don't grow much in the hair, more power to them.  If they say they shave their legs for sanitary reasons, I can live with it.  Either way, I don't care that much and think it is pretty much up the discretion of the ladies.

I always assumed that unless it says so in a PC's mdesc, or the PC emotes it, that the majority of Zalanthans don't have a lot of body hair.  I also assumed that most Zalanthans of the races that do have hair wouldn't care either way.

The amount of precious, precious water it would take would keep all but the wealthiest Zalanthans from shaving their legs.

Appearance-conscious nobles, succesful merchants and their aides might do it. It does fake the appearance of youth, and I've no reason to believe youth is considered 'less pretty' in Zalanthas.

Quote from: "jstorrie"The amount of precious, precious water it would take would keep all but the wealthiest Zalanthans from shaving their legs.

Appearance-conscious nobles, succesful merchants and their aides might do it. It does fake the appearance of youth, and I've no reason to believe youth is considered 'less pretty' in Zalanthas.

Where does this assumption that they'd need water come from?

Quote from: "Thunder Lord"THey may not shave thier legs, but they should! Hair is nasty, should only be on the head.

Do you shave your legs, Mr Lord?

How does shaving the legs help with hunting?
Pubic hair I can see, it justs gets irritaion with way too much excercise.

Body hair could be very useful in preventing the skin from damage when there's a sandstorm. Even if you're covered head to toe in sandcloth, the wind's gonna whip around and you're gonna get sand in your clothing. Us American-types don't have to worry about "survival" in the same way desert dwellers of the Middle East have to, but I imagine the leg-hairs on their women help keep their skin soft and unmarred.

I think the notion of women in basically a stone-age culture would typically shave their legs is absurd.  Here are my reasons:

1. Shaving is a nasty business from the skin's point of view.  Even with the most modern, surgical steel or titanium implements, shaving produces ingrown hair, skin sensitivity to sunlight, razor burn and rash.  Granted these sympoms do not affect everyone who shaves in the same way, however these are all common side-effects of shaving hair off the body.

2. That said, let's examine the implements that Zalanthan women would have for shaving their legs.  First, if they exist, skin conditioners, softeners and moisturizers would be affordable by only a very, very few women.  As for the shaving tools, obsidian comes to mind as the only substance that is available to most that would be at all effective in holding a razor-sharp edge.  Sure, flint gets pretty damn sharp, but there is no substitute for metal for sharpness, except the crystaline structure of obsidian glass, and that is a poor substitute at best.

3.  In terrestrial humans, there are specific ethnic groups for which body hair grows thick and coarse.  People from hot, tropical and wet climates tend to have thin, fine body hair.  People from colder climates tend to be the ones with thick and coarse hair.  Now, I'm not trying to suggest that earth people who currently LIVE in these climes would adhere to the trends I've stated.  After all, the secrets of evolution by natural selection are death and time.  But people whose ancestors lived for thousands of years in a particular climate will, for the most part, have body hair attributes that match what I've suggested.  Of course, inter-breeding between ethnic groups is also a factor in predisposition.

In my not-so-humble-opinion, the ideal for human survival is for everyone to be fucking everyone else to produce offspring with the greatest diversity in genetic traits.  But, then again, I'm just a naughty monkey.
:twisted:

I simply don't think that most people in Zalanthas would have thick and coarse body hair.  I could be very mistaken here.

As for pubic hair, the thickness of fur in the 'nether regions' tends to be based on cleanliness.  Modern Americans assume cleanliness=free of offensive or pungent scent.  Not true.  We also tend to assume cleanliness means lack of parasites.  This is also not true.  The common louse is most fond of clean, dry scalp and hair.  The dirtier and oilier a head or body is, the less chance of lice infestation.  Aid-workers who travel to areas where washing at least once every day is rare, if not unheard of, will be more succeptible to infestation of body lice BECAUSE of the general state of 'cleanliness' of their bodies compared to everyone else (at least at first).  Not because they can no longer clean themselves as they are used to.

Napoleon Bonaparte had an interesting solution to this problem:  Shave the body and the lice will leave.  He was right, of course.  This he learned from the Romans in their writings on military logistics.  Lye also tends to discourage body lice from staying around.  Of course....lye tends to discourage just about ANYTHING living from staying around!

Due to glandular secretions, the pubic region of the human body is one of the cleanest areas.  By clean, of course, I mean you could eat food off it safely.  Not that it doesn't give off a pungent aroma.  Americans have become obsessed silly over masking or eliminating their body scent.  Something I find amusing since body scent is the most powerful sexual attractor known.  Perhaps the great influence of Victorian prudery on industrial Protestant America has more to do with shaving and masking body scent than any other factor.

Thanks, and have a naughty day!  Oh, and remember...hairy monkeys are SEXIER than hairless ones!
Sniff a few armpits and pubic mounds for the ole naughty monkey, eh?
:twisted:

Quote from: "Rindan"I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Zalantahs woman (and men) have a minimal amount of body hair.  It isn't like they evolved with winters in mind.  It isn't unheard of for humans to have little hair on their bodies.  My girlfriend, who is of Taiwanese ancestry, only shaves her legs once every month and can do it less then five strokes.  She once went two or three months without shaving and I didn't notice until I was squinting at her legs and noticed a couple of pathetic hairs poking up.

If the ladies want to emote out their big hair legs, more power to them.  If they want to say they don't grow much in the hair, more power to them.  If they say they shave their legs for sanitary reasons, I can live with it.  Either way, I don't care that much and think it is pretty much up the discretion of the ladies.

I agree with Rindan. Hair is meant to keep the body warm, on Zalanthas, I doubt there is much need for that. So, I'm thinking there is, yes a minimal need for the extra hair, if it were there, though, it's probably very fine and far from bothersome. And yes, if it's something you want to emote out.. just do it when I'm not in the room.

I use to work at this hippy vegetarian restaurant in downtown Denver, we had a couple of... females.. who wouldn't shave their legs or armpits, but insisted on wearing shorts and sleeveless shirts.  :shock: I still have nightmares.. I can't imagine not doing all of that as daily grooming.

Quote from: "naatok"I think the notion of women in basically a stone-age culture would typically shave their legs is absurd.

Right, and on Zalanthas, men would do it at the same rate as women. Since it is a nonsexist society. No matter how many "miss" I hear and men being the "let's spoil women" kind of people, I know there will be an equal amount of women treating men like pansies.

Quote from: "corona"
I agree with Rindan. Hair is meant to keep the body warm, on Zalanthas, I doubt there is much need for that. So, I'm thinking there is, yes a minimal need for the extra hair, if it were there, though, it's probably very fine and far from bothersome. And yes, if it's something you want to emote out.. just do it when I'm not in the room.

Hmm, maybe the consent rules need to be extended?   :P


I think the ethnic past of the people of the known world is sufficiently murky that you can have PCs with however much hair you want and do it without mutations.

-- We don't know what the climate was like in the recent past.  There are indications that there was much more surface water at some time in the past, but there aren't any geologists to tell us if that was a few hundred years ago, a couple thousand years ago, or tens of thousands of years ago.  The desertification could predate the coming of the dragon, it could even predate the area being inhabited by humanoids.  If the known world has been a desert for the last 100,000 years than the natives of the area are probably genetically adapted to desert conditions.  If the known world has only been a desert of a couple thousand years or less, then the humanoids living there are probably culturally adapted to the climate, but for the most part still genetically adapted to whatever environment their ancestors inhabited.  The known world could have been a sweaty jungle, a temperate middle-earthlike region, or even a chilly near-arctic forest.  The fact that the wildlife isn't very diverse could indicate that the climate change was sudden and catastrophic, with only a few animals able to adapt or warped by magic to do so.  (For all we know Tektolnes could have created the giant insects that inhabit the south-lands, specifically to provide a game animal that could survive there).  Without knowing what the Known World was like in ancient times we can't say what physical characteristics would be likely.

-- We don't know where the ancestors of the current inhabitants of the known world were from.  We assume that they are the descendants of people who lived in the known world thousands of years ago, but we don't actually know that for certain.  The Known World is probably a tiny part of the planet, right now it is believed to be cut off on all sides but in the past there may have been roads and trade routes crossing out of the known world.  When the Dragon went on a tear he might have made nearby places even less inviting than the Known World, there could have been refugees coming in from all sides.  Diverse cultures and ethnic groups could have been thrown together and reduced to tribalism.  That would be handy, because it lets PCs look however they want.  People from hot arid environments would have had a small advantage, but there is no reason that big blond Vikings and hairless jungle men couldn't have survived as well -- the whole point of being a sapient species is that you can create tools to help you adapt to changing environments.

I say go nuts.  Be a cave man, be a baby-faced hairless wonder, whatever.


Angela Christine

Wilma and Betty doesn't have hair sprouting all over, be it legs or armpit. So there.

Maybe I missed it, but I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned other methods of hair removal.  I remember reading that the ancient Egyptians used some sort of waxing process to remove hair.  Something like that probably wouldn't be hard to come by on Zalanthas.  :?:

There's a song by this great musician called Adrian Belew, titled "The Ideal Woman", where he's recorded various men - given a single-line response to what their ideal woman would be like......


One of the responses is:
Pretty with hairy legs!

I bet half-giant chicks don't shave their legs.  That would take all day!


Angela Christine

Zalanthans would have different compounds and chemicals available to them that don't exist in our world.  It IS quite possible that they are able to make a wax from some secretion of some animal or plant; its also quite possible someone in has discovered that that gortok whose been chasing everyone up and down the North side has eye-fluid with miraculous Nair-like abilities.

There's also that theory about people on Zalanthas evolving to have little body hair.  I've not been around very long, and so am no authority, but Zalanthas most likely as SOME point was quite green.  There hasn't been enough time since that Armageddon-like catastrophy for any of the races to further evolve (naturally, anyway), if you take into consideration that many places in the game hint at old rumors about older days.

For all who don't have dessert experience: Hair is a no-no in the dessert. For a sandstorm you want hair, but  you SHOULD NOT be doing anything outside in a sandstorm if you don't have to. If you are then you WOULD hunker down, dig a hole, let sand partly cover you (for protection) and keep your nose pointed away from the wind. Hair is very annoying, and those of us who have hunted easter-oregon desserts (wich are pretty mild, but barren) know that sand gets on your legs and stuff


For those of you without forest experience: Hair good! Keeps general dirt from crusting on and when you want to get off what is on, simply shave.


^you make the decisions^

I have quite a bit of hair on my legs. I live in the desert, and on a hot day, with the wind blowing through that hair it actually gets rather cool, from evaporation and what not. When I'd shave my legs for baseball and Football, I'd shave my legs and get some really bad irritation to my legs that annoyed me pretty damn much, and it distracted me and I got a couple goals on me for the first few games. After A while I got used to it and It'd feel like a sweated a lot more than when I actually had leg hair, so... I don't think they shave their legs. I don't.

Many ancient cultures, including the Romans, did not shave but rather plucked the hair with tweezers.  I'd find this more consistent with the cultural and technological level than shaving (the form such tweezers would take might be different, but still possible).

Painful?  Yeah, probably.  But so is a lot in life.  The things some people do in the name of vanity.

At the risk of reviving an old thread which I have a disgustingly annoying habit of, with the scarceness of water, you'd think that SOME people would do what the fremen in the Dune books did- Sand baths.

It's a desert planet, and it's really, REALLY hot. You'd think the scorching sand would be able to kill the hair follicles.  (Just a thought)

(Edited for leaving something out)

Wouldn't 'sand baths' do horrible damage to your skin if it was hot enough to 'scorch' off hair follicles? And what about the genitals?
Ouch. No thanks.

Early on, yea, but the whole thing, if it scorches, rubs ff the dead skin, then the old damage would at SOME point be either barely visible, or completely gone. At some point you'd have skin that could actually resist the damaging effects of the sand


Right!?!?!?

Shaving is not the only option to remove hair. In old Anatolia, women used to boil sugar to become a viscous matter and they used it to pluck the hair from their legs. I believe there may be substitutes.

Also, as a man who had had girlfriends with a lot of finals and no time to shave their legs, I know hairy legs also feel smooth to the touch. At least for some women. So it's not a _must_ to shave your legs to ensure your sexual partner caresses them and feels smoothness.

My girlfriend is of Asian ancestry and shaves about once every three months or so. She grows a tiny patch of hair on her knees that after all that time becomes just barely visible.  She can shave off three months of leg hair in about 4 strokes with a razor.  Hell, she could do it with tweezers in about 2 minutes if she really felt like it.  If a woman is dying for an explanation as to how they can have silky smooth skin leg hair free skin and can't think of an in game way to shave, I would just call it genetic.  It isn't a terribly hard stretch of the imagination as it already exists in this world.

I think that as races and species evolve to better survive in the world around them and to further themselves from their ancestorial species. I would imagine that the races, living in a harsh, sweltering, desert world would have evolved to have as little body hair as possible. This doesn't mean that they can't have hair on the top of their head or on their face as this is used among many species for differentiation between the sexes, but body hair was present at one time for warmth and as these races would no longer need body hair for warmth it would have eventually become a null gene. Humans today are not hairy like apes anymore, are they? Why would you expect advanced races on another planet to be. And yes, I do believe Zalanthans would be advance races, because they have learned how to open up their conciousness and speak to others with their minds.

Also, with the type of clothing that is on Zalanthas, boots and tight, hot clothing of that nature would eventually rub off the hair anyway. I've known many friends who have been stationed in Iraq and due to having to wear combat boots out in the heat, came back with no hair where their boots wrapped around their legs and ankles, and it's taken some of them at least a year to get that hair back.

Actually, body hair is to keep you cool. Head hair is for insulation, that's why it grows thicker and in more abundance. The thin body hairs are actually to catch the sweat that comes from your body. As the wind blows it hits the sweat that's stuck to your body and works as a surprisingly efficient cooling system.

Women (and men) in ancient Egypt used to move all their body hair with pumice stone. Including the hair on their heads as it was seen as 'unclean'. I'm also aware of some Persian taboo's regarding body hair in certain areas. I don't see why they wouldn't.   Hair is also hot. Keeping shaved would keep you cooler wouldn't it?

Quote from: "Bast"Women (and men) in ancient Egypt used to move all their body hair with pumice stone.

I've tried friction hair removal on both my legs and face.  It works pretty well, and doesn't sting as much as you might expect.  But the idea of removing all your body hair with friction disturbs me.  In places where the skin is loose you'd need to pull the skin taut with one hand, and grind away the hair with the other hand, which seems like it would be really inconvenient when it comes to the genital area.  Some Egyptian dude stretching out his ball sack and buffing it with a pumice stone?  That just seems . . . pretty damn hardcore.

QuoteHair is also hot. Keeping shaved would keep you cooler wouldn't it?

Not necessarily.  See the post above yours about how hair can help cool you.


Even the thick hair on your head doesn't act as a heater, it acts as an insulator.  A normal blanket doesn't generate heat, it just helps you retain your body heat, heat that the surrounding cold air would otherwise leech away.  But what if the air in the room was hotter than body temperature?  Isn't heat going to be leeching into your body?  In that case insulators might actually keep you cooler by keeping the heat out.

I live in a country where the ambient temperature is nearly always lower than my body temperature.  I'm not sure what insulators would do in an environment where the ambient temperature is usually higher than body temperature.  The space shuttle is wrapped in insulation, not just to keep the heat in when they are in the absolute cold of space, but also to keep the heat out when they are burning through re-entry.





In any event, if we assume that shaving would help you keep cool, and that people shave to keep cool, it seems to me that shaving your head would be as common as shaving your legs.  So if s/he isn't bald, s/he probably doesn't shave his/her legs either.

Quote from: "Angela Christine"

Quote from: "Bast"Women (and men) in ancient Egypt used to move all their body hair with pumice stone.

I've tried friction hair removal on both my legs and face.  It works pretty well, and doesn't sting as much as you might expect.  But the idea of removing all your body hair with friction disturbs me.  In places where the skin is loose you'd need to pull the skin taut with one hand, and grind away the hair with the other hand, which seems like it would be really inconvenient when it comes to the genital area.  Some egyptian dude stretching out his ball sack and buffing it with a pumice stone?  That just seems . . . pretty damn hardcore.

The pumice method was mainly used by priest in ritual hair removal. There was also heavy use of of a honey wax recipe. This site has some over shaving facts

http://www.hair-removal-shaver.com/hair-removal.html

Glad to see you and your girlfriend are still together, Rindan!

Quote from: "Bast"
I live in a country where the ambient temperature is nearly always lower than my body temperature. I'm not sure what insulators would do in an environment where the ambient temperature is usually higher than body temperature. The space shuttle is wrapped in insulation, not just to keep the heat in when they are in the absolute cold of space, but also to keep the heat out when they are burning through re-entry.

In any event, if we assume that shaving would help you keep cool, and that people shave to keep cool, it seems to me that shaving your head would be as common as shaving your legs. So if s/he isn't bald, s/he probably doesn't shave his/her legs either.

I am from Texas. Having thick hair makes you hotter because of body heat. Being bald means the sun is beating down on your now unprotected scalp. Having enough hair to keep the sun off, but to little to insulate your head is best. Leg hair generaly doesn't grow thick enough to keep the sun off in any meaningful way.

:shock:
Jagged obsidian blades.... No water to spare for something like that (unless yer a noble ¬_¬).... No shaving cream or anything like that.... Just fucking... Ow, no. I've often wondered why so many Zalanthain men are clean-shaven if those are the only methods.

Well... Just to be absolutely clear... Obsidian blades are not by necessity jagged... And have been used from ancient to modern times as surgical instruments because they knap to a monoatomic edge.  Doesn't really sound that scary to shave with.... Granted I use a Mach 3 with multiple blades, I use nothing more than my razor and water to shave.

Also, Zalanthans could use sand/stone abrasion to remove hair.  Mmm.

Quote from: "psionic fungus"Well... Just to be absolutely clear... Obsidian blades are not by necessity jagged... And have been used from ancient to modern times as surgical instruments because they knap to a monoatomic edge.

Had to research this, and sure enough he is right. http://www.finescience.com/commerce/ccc1065-obsidian-scalpels.htm

In fact, obsidian blades are so sharp that they'd be more than adequate when combined with simple bar soap (which is readily available in game).

It can be so fine you wont feel it cut you until you see blood and start panicking. Or atleast that was how it was for me, when I got to use an old Native American blade.

I bet they shave their everything to cut down on places for the lice to live. Men too.

I assume that Zalanthas is like Earth in all ways except those that are specified in the docs. So until I see something in the docs that says such-and-such society favours/does not favour leg shaving, I'll assume that the prevalence of leg-shaving there is the same that it is here.

I think the question is more, "does your character shave her legs?"

jstorrie, so you're saying that the prevalence of leg-shaving is... mixxed at best?  Some people do it and some don't?

Uhm.

My character waxes?

I know a certain Krathi that can zap that pesky hair out permanently for the low price of four small.  :wink:

Yeah well I know a Nilazi who will make sure the hair never grows back.

EVER.

(ominous music)

Quote from: "Twisted Minstrel"I know a certain Krathi that can zap that pesky hair out permanently for the low price of four small.  :wink:

Electrolysis seems like more of a job for an Elkrosian, to me.

Of course, ANY of the elementalists is going to be so much better than a mundane at hair removal. YET ANOTHER WAY MUNDANES ARE GIMPED.

It's a good time to play a dwarf. No uncertainty.

Women shave there legs! tell that to my wife :)..I dont think the women would shave there legs, The women are as crafty as strong as whatever as the men. Shaven legs is a sexist thing. So NO they wouldnt, my opinion.

this topic reminded me something. Why do elkrans have hair? I am sure i saw an Elkran with hair and eyebrows.. How can the body keep hair-roots alive?

The... same way it keeps other cells alive?

Quote from: "phatpasco"Women shave there legs! tell that to my wife :)..I dont think the women would shave there legs, The women are as crafty as strong as whatever as the men. Shaven legs is a sexist thing. So NO they wouldnt, my opinion.

Unless men shave their legs too.   :P

If people more often than not take sand baths and actually scrub, would the tendency be that their body hair would be rooted away often?  If such were the case then continuous practice for ages would certainly produce people with a lot less hair on their body that they don't really need to shave.

As for concept of beauty, the idea of fabric comes into mind.  Since there are a lot of silk in the upper class of the Zalanthans wouldn't it carry over that silky smooth idea of touch is actually favorable?  Furs are considered better if they are soft and pliable.  Low class linen have a loose weave which means it has less thread, this also means that they are coarse when felt.  Better quality would have a less rough feel to it.

That being the case I think it is natural for pampered citizens to think that the preferred texture for skin would be smooth.  Mainly because the idea of a rough surface is actually more ghetto.  Then it would follow that thick and coarse hair is not something that a noble would want.  As for the general population though, if they thought that the rugged life style was preferable then I would think they preferred a rougher texture.  But then you also have to consider the population in general, if they think of their own preference as representation of beauty or would they actually look up to the noble class for such concepts.  It is important to note that in a poverty stricken society, the majority of the low class tend to look up to the upper percentile as the idea of a better life.

Skin that's got some hair is probably a lot smoother than crudely shaved skin. Stubbles are rough, hair usually isn't.

Anyway, since body hair is most common and most developed in northern european types, I don't think it's so much of an issue in zalanthas.

Alger wins.

Truthfully, it's really whatever your particular character prefers. Obsidian makes for a fine edge, a wet hand and soap make for lather ... it's not really an issue of technology.

Therefore, it becomes an issue of culture, and while I think that civilized people, particularly middle to upper class, would often shave, and possibly the lower class would often imitate, it's certainly likely that tribals would never even think about it.

Quote from: "The7DeadlyVenomz"Therefore, it becomes an issue of culture, and while I think that civilized people, particularly middle to upper class, would often shave, and possibly the lower class would often imitate, it's certainly likely that tribals would never even think about it.

I think it would depend on the tribe and how much contact they have with "civilization."  For instance, most elven tribes?  Doubtful.  Gypsies?  Probably do.  Malarn?  Hairless already.

A few other ancient methods have been mentioned and, for what it's worth at this stage of the convo, women in ancient Greece and Rome used to singe the hair from their body as well.

I think the evolution of Zalanthan races would probably mean that individuals had a lot less, or thinner hair over their body as well.

As for the attraction factor, I think it would really depend on the woman/culture like today. A number of women don't shave body hair in some places and some do, as we've discovered!

That's fair as well, Fellow.

Quote from: "Wolfsong"It's a good time to play a dwarf. No uncertainty.

This is one of the problems with trying to conceptualize an entirely fictional world, some of our cultural baggage bleeds through.  

A lot of the little things we assume are the same as modern north america if the docs don't say otherwise, and at best we can try to apply traditions from other real world places and times.  It's hard to get a satisfying answer.

Personally I really try not  think about it one way or another, just like I don't think about it much in real life.

In the Wheel of Time - the Aeil would have steam tents, small rooms in which many of them would sit, pour little water on hot burning coals then use an item to scrape themselves clean while they were sweating.

As it was a small cramped area, little water was needed as for hair, I guess this sort of fitted in with someones comment about the Egyptians removing hair via methods of friction.

Either way, I also think it can go both ways, just as it does IRL - I would say that using 'we have a high lack of water' as a reason to say it never happens would be too strong a view point.  Saying also people never bath or clean themselves is much the same, there are ways they would not be sticking horridly, they wouldn't be as clean as we are - but they would not smell like a rubbish tip... unless they were scavenger type PC's living in rubbish tip-like fashion :P

I'm pretty sure they all smell. Even the nobles. People everywhere smell, highly industrialized first-world countries are the exception. Zalanthans would have to wash their clothes every time they start to smell of sweat - nearly impossible, so body odor would probably be normal. Shaving the armpits would help a bit, but not smelling when you don't wash every couple of days or at least use some kind of deodorant would be nearly impossible, too.

Perfumes are used ... descriptions typically state that these perfumes are very heavy. So yeh, we all smell, but some of us smell better than others, or worse, whatever the case might be. Perfumes are your friend.

Quote from: "Nao"Shaving the armpits would help a bit,

No it wouldn't.  

Hair doesn't stink.  This common misconception may exist because people who don't bathe usually don't shave either.  Filthy hippies and hobos stink because they don't bathe, not because they don't shave.

The objectionable odour is caused by anaerobic bacteria eating your excretions, not the excretions themselves.  When you shave your pits the fold of the arm pit is able to seal better, making a more inviting habitat for the anaerobic bacteria.  A nice hairy armpit doesn't seal well at all, so it stays comparatively well ventilated.

If two people (or two armpits) bath equally often and equally thoroughly, the shaved armpit should smell slightly worse than the hairy armpit.

Quote from: "Angela Christine"

Quote from: "Nao"Shaving the armpits would help a bit,

No it wouldn't.  

Hair doesn't stink.  This common misconception may exist because people who don't bathe usually don't shave either.  Filthy hippies and hobos stink because they don't bathe, not because they don't shave.

The objectionable odour is caused by anaerobic bacteria eating your excretions, not the excretions themselves.  When you shave your pits the fold of the arm pit is able to seal better, making a more inviting habitat for the anaerobic bacteria.  A nice hairy armpit doesn't seal well at all, so it stays comparatively well ventilated.

If two people (or two armpits) bath equally often and equally thoroughly, the shaved armpit should smell slightly worse than the hairy armpit.

Yep. And there are a lot of ways to stay clean that don't involve water.  And diet is a big part of it too.  North America is stinky as all hell,  for the same reason we're fat. We live off of hormones, chemicals, and fat.  Thank you fast food.

It was my understanding that the hair in your armpits actually makes it more difficult to get as clean when compared to a lack of hair. That would mean that more bacteria would remain and cause more odor as it worked away at the excretions there.
*shrug* I'm no doctor though.

I've read in a biology book from the 1980's that in bad cases of body odor, you should shave to help with it!

Seriously, though - it's a lot harder to wipe away the smell when there's hair that it can stick to.

Which explains why people's heads smell so bad.   :roll:  The oily sweat on your head is similar in composition to the sweat in your arm pits and your groin.  So why doesn't your scalp reek?  Ventilation.

QuoteWhich explains why people's heads smell so bad. Rolling Eyes The oily sweat on your head is similar in composition to the sweat in your arm pits and your groin. So why doesn't your scalp reek? Ventilation.

What the fuck are you talking about?

Quote from: "Nao"I've read in a biology book from the 1980's that in bad cases of body odor, you should shave to help with it!

Seriously, though - it's a lot harder to wipe away the smell when there's hair that it can stick to.

I'd suggest there's a cultural bias in your bio book, tragically science doesn't really escape culture by any means, and the education system really doesn't.

If hair makes a difference, it isn't huge, and I'd imagine that a culture that doesn't encourage shaving would have various hygiene rituals to accommodate the difference.

If you want to really get down to it, you can consider the impact of temperature and the absurdly dry climate on bacteria.  Namely, there'd be less and it would grow more slowly.

Of course, I'm still not sure what any of this has to do with anything.  Cultural aesthetic is rarely based on logic, people don't shave in North America because it's better they shave in North America because they're taught it looks good.

I really can't believe this topic has this many pages...

I'm not trying to be mean..but why such a big debate?

Are some of you hairy freaks who don't shave and are offended?

What's the deal?

Cerelum echoed my thoughts exactly. This thread has been going strong since 2005. What gives?

I don't even remember what my vote was on this one, but I'm pretty sure it was the 'I don't really care' option.

Quote from: "Dirr"

What the fuck are you talking about?

Sweat.  

http://health.howstuffworks.com/sweat.htm

QuoteThere are two types of sweat glands:

Eccrine - the most numerous type that are found all over the body, particularly on the palms of the hands, soles of the feet and forehead

Apocrine - mostly confined to the armpits (axilla) and the anal-genital area. They typically end in hair follicles rather than pores.

Eccrine glands emit mostly salt and water.  Appocrine glands emit salt, water, oils and proteins.


I thought that the scalp had Appocrine sweat glands, but I can't seem to find anything that says exactly what kind of glands the scalp has, so I may have been wrong about that.  It happens.

However, the scalp definitely has sebaceous glands, which do produce oils and proteins.  So the scalp has hair, oils, proteins, salt and water on it, much like the armpits.  Yet the scalp usually doesn't smell bad.

QuoteI thought that the scalp had Appocrine sweat glands, but I can't seem to find anything that says exactly what kind of glands the scalp has, so I may have been wrong about that. It happens.

However, the scalp definitely has sebaceous glands, which do produce oils and proteins. So the scalp has hair, oils, proteins, salt and water on it, much like the armpits. Yet the scalp usually doesn't smell bad.

I think the stench from your groin and axillary area must be overpowering the stench from your hair.... but believe me, it is there; everyone else notices it... so take a shower, damn it.

Quote from: "Dirr"
I think the stench from your groin and axillary area must be overpowering the stench from your hair.... but believe me, it is there; everyone else notices it... so take a shower, damn it.

Quote from: "Cerelum"

Are some of you hairy freaks who don't shave and are offended?

What's the deal?

That's kind of like a strawman argument I suppose.  People have argued against shaving in Zalanthas, thus they must be hairy in real life, thus they should just calm down and get over it.

What's so offensive about people considering cultural norms in the game, and actually putting some thought into why things are they way they are?    I mean, is it challenging your behavior in real life?  If it is, you probably have some shit you should be thinking about.

Personally, I'm interested in playing in a culture that isn't available on tv or outside my door, I already have those.    The sociological side of the game is a huge portion of the fun for me.  

So if you don't like the discussion... go kill a scrab or something. You have your fun, I'll have mine.

Quote from: "Nao"I'm pretty sure they all smell. Even the nobles. People everywhere smell, highly industrialized first-world countries are the exception. Zalanthans would have to wash their clothes every time they start to smell of sweat - nearly impossible, so body odor would probably be normal. Shaving the armpits would help a bit, but not smelling when you don't wash every couple of days or at least use some kind of deodorant would be nearly impossible, too.

Vivaduans don't smell.

I don't think shaving really fits the game, in my opinion.

The only reason I can think of for any woman in Zalanthas to shave would be to delouce one's self. I can only image what bugs can come from humping a 'Rinther or Bynner. Ick.

Considering the effects of evolution on what appears to be, largely, a desert planet, I don't picture most humans as having an excess of body hair to begin with. I've dated two different women who didn't need to shave their legs for them to be smooth as silk, so this is not something unheard of. Take a look at the other races, even - Elves have none, dwarves have none, muls have none. And because of the environment, I believe this makes sense.

That said, for those women in Zalanthas (and really, things like this are generally up to the creator of the character) that would need to shave often, I don't think most would have the means to do so. I once had a water elementalist that was obsessed with his own looks/hygiene, so he regularly shaved everything (and yeah I actually solo-emoted it a few times), but most Zalanthans likely don't have an excess of water available to bathe with and make shaving comfortable.

In short, for people with lots of water available that care about their appearances overmuch I could probably picture shaving their body hair, but I don't see a LOT of body hair around to begin with.

Couldn't they shave with oil rather than water?

Oils and animal fats are definitely in supply, and would be an option.

Elves have body hair...I could point you in the direction of many elf npcs with all sorts of body hair.

Gith I think are without hair:)

You could shave with just about any liquid, I suppose. Oil would probably work nicely, but the ointment oils I've seen in the game have generally been more expensive than water, and I wouldn't recommend anyone trying to shave with lamp oil. Technically speaking you could probably shave with ale or something equally cheap, but if you're that poor then you probably don't care either way and would rather drink the ale.

Didn't Romans use oil to bathe? I seem to remember in history class hearing about romans soaking their body in oil, then taking a piece of metal and scraping it off of them along with all the dead skin cells and anything else that might be dirty on them.

A bit off topic but I've always wondered why Zalanthan's never found an alternative to washing themselves besides using water. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 01, 2008, 08:22:42 AM

A bit off topic but I've always wondered why Zalanthan's never found an alternative to washing themselves besides using water. Just doesn't make sense to me.

I'd always assumed they had. I thought we just weren't emoting it out. Everyone smells like dust and dirt. If you've ever ridden the subway you'll know that people without who do not or cannot bathe smell far more colorful than that.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 01, 2008, 08:22:42 AM
Didn't Romans use oil to bathe? I seem to remember in history class hearing about romans soaking their body in oil, then taking a piece of metal and scraping it off of them along with all the dead skin cells and anything else that might be dirty on them.

You can actually use sand to abrade your skin in a similar fashion.

Our societies tend to be way overly smell-conscious as it is.  I mean, we rub metals into our armpits so that we don't sweat :o.  We're kind of obsessive.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on January 01, 2008, 08:22:42 AM
A bit off topic but I've always wondered why Zalanthan's never found an alternative to washing themselves besides using water. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Because it's pretty unnecessary. Both cities should smell extremely bad just because of rotting rubbish lying around, really smelly toilets since no one is going to flush them with water (if there are public latrines at all) and so on. I really doubt that a bit of BO in addition to that matters.

I can't believe this has been resurrected.

QuoteConsidering the effects of evolution on what appears to be, largely, a desert planet, I don't picture most humans as having an excess of body hair to begin with. I've dated two different women who didn't need to shave their legs for them to be smooth as silk, so this is not something unheard of. Take a look at the other races, even - Elves have none, dwarves have none, muls have none. And because of the environment, I believe this makes sense.

There are a lot of misconceptions here.  Hairlessness is not an evolutionary adaptation to a desert environment.  It would be just as likely to be detrimental to the organism, and most mammals in desert environments IRL have plenty of hair.  As far as RL women go, in my experience those who aren't hairy -and- don't shave (I hang out with hippies, okay) have all had light hair and complexion.  I have never met a woman from the middle-east who fit these specifications.  I know Zalanthas is not the middle-east, but it seems to be as appropriate of a RL analog as possible.

I just think it is silly, and should be an IC cultural issue.  Perhaps the Southron barbarians don't shave, but Tuluki (men and women) keep their bodies free of hair through exfoliation.  Perhaps not.  I just don't see why it would be a global phenomena (it isn't IRL), and I certainly don't think Zalanthans should have evolved to grow less hair because they live in a desert... It's just not rational.

Also, Zalanthan Elves have body hair... I don't think I've ever seen anything saying otherwise.  Muls are part Dwarf, so that explains why they are hairless.  Did the Dwarves lose their hair in the mines?  Does anyone know?  Oh well, it's Dark Sun.

OMG, bearded Elves FTW!

If it hasn't been brought up yet, women in desert climates here on earth shave as a matter of hygiene. Middle east and Indo-asia have many such customs.

Usually they use strings to do it but wax is also used.

I know I tend to reek more when I shave my armpits as opposed to when I do not.

Quote from: Hot_Dancer on March 22, 2008, 06:42:33 PM
I know I tend to reek more when I shave my armpits as opposed to when I do not.

... you shave your armpits?

Quote from: Mood on March 22, 2008, 08:45:46 PM

Quote from: Hot_Dancer on March 22, 2008, 06:42:33 PM
I know I tend to reek more when I shave my armpits as opposed to when I do not.

... you shave your armpits?

That wasn't the part I found disturbing.

This thread is immortal. Unlike necrothreads, which die and get resurrected, this one has been on page 1 or 2 for as long as I remember. I dub it Immorthread.

Do Zalanthan women shave their legs?  (Voting closed: September 27, 2005, 11:50:42 am)


Awesome.

*bump for shiggles*

Worst. Thread. Ever.

elkran woman should have minimum hair because of the energy circulation under their skin, which burns hair roots ( i watched in a film)
i never thought this way before. i will chase an elkran woman with my character and check it out if it is really true.

I would think that, after living in such a hot environment for so long, there wouldn't be a need for shaving in the first place. I would think that after generations of dealing with the heat, the folks with excessive body hair would have died away because of overheating. That's just a thought. Perhaps they don't have much hair on their legs to shave in the first place?

WHY IS THIS THREAD STILL ALIVE?!?!

Because nubs keep fucking bumping it.

This is the thread that never dies,
It just goes on and on, you guys!
Some people started posting it,
Not knowing what it was,
Now they'll just keep on posting it
Forever just because
This is the thread that never dies,
It just goes on and on you guys...

Quote from: NoteworthyFellow on May 06, 2008, 08:46:14 AM
This is the thread that never dies,
It just goes on and on, you guys!
Some people started posting it,
Not knowing what it was,
Now they'll just keep on posting it
Forever just because
This is the thread that never dies,
It just goes on and on you guys...

This smells like the beginning of another quote war.

What the hell is a Quote war?


No, Zalanthan women(on average) don't shave their damn legs.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 06, 2008, 10:03:17 AM
What the hell is a Quote war?

At the risk of waking it from the dead once more ...

http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30563.0.html (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30563.0.html)

Heh, stop trying to coin your own terms, Mushashi. That's a 'Quote-Stack'. Or as some of the more hip users like to call it, a 'Quack.'








Yes I just made that up. I know I'm awesome.

If only I were so creative  ;D

I'm actually quoting Mansa

Quote from: mansa on April 22, 2008, 12:14:24 AM
I meant that I've seen quote wars approximately 10 different times on the GDB, Ghost.

Though I don't blame you for not knowing that ... you would have had to actually READ that horror of a thread to find it.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on May 06, 2008, 10:03:17 AM
What the hell is a Quote war?


No, Zalanthan women(on average) don't shave their damn legs.

See, now you've brought it back.

I could certainly see it as a cultural thing, as was suggested before.  Tulukis, both men and women (due to the non-sexist society), probably do remove their body hair, maybe viewing it as another way to differentiate themselves from the Allanaki barbarians.  Though one may smell worse without body hair--this is up to debate--it is true that you'll hold on to less dirt without it, so the aesthetically-minded Tuluki culture may view a lack of body hair--and therefore more cleanliness--as desirable.  As was suggested earlier, they could use exfoliation, sand abrasion, strings, or even wax to do this.  In Allanak, meanwhile, it would likely be seen as a useless extravagance of the North.  Some nobles may do it, if only to show that they have the luxury of not needing to care whether it's useless or not, but by and large, commoners probably wouldn't bother.

Tribes would vary on this from tribe to tribe.  Gypsies, for example, might remove their body hair for the same reason the Tulukis would, and other tribes may view its presence, or lack thereof, as something of ritual or cultural significance.  I'd imagine that'd be up to each individual tribe.

I'd be shocked if any resident of Luir's Outpost or Red Storm even considered removing their body hair.

The answer is in: a plurality of you think Zalanthan women do not shave their legs.

I declare this topic officially done. (Finally.)