If I was a City Elf in Tuluk...
Where would I live?
Would I live in a family tribe, or a collective gang that acts like a tribe?
What jobs would I have?
How would I treat the templars and nobility and bards?
How should I be expected to be treated by the authority and castes?
Would I have social respect for being an artist, or still mistrusted for being an elf?
What did the city elven population do during the wars?
Would I work for any of the tuluki nobility?
Would a noble "buy me a beer" ?
...
I'm very curious. Does anybody have any answers for me?
Just adding my voice to this one, because I've always been curious as to how elves are viewed in Tuluk. Half-elves, too. Or, at least, how it is different from Allanak.
I would
love to see more city elves in Tuluk. My PC needs more of you to sneer at.
QuoteWhere would I live?
The options for c-elves in Tuluk are many, as they make up such a large part of the populace (the statistics elude me at the moment). As most city elves would be self-employed or employed among their people in one way or another, most often doing shifty things, I would see them frequenting the less-upscale areas like the Warrens or the Old Quarter. On the other hand, there are opportunities for elves and non-humans in the Poet's Circle and as partisans, and I've seen a few of them live quite comfortably that way.
QuoteWould I live in a family tribe, or a collective gang that acts like a tribe?
Due to the lack of documentation about Tuluki city elf tribes, I personally have played my elves there as coming from small VNPC family tribes. It would really be up to the player.
QuoteWhat jobs would I have?
A city elf in many clans and noble houses in Tuluk would not proceed past the level of 'private' or thereabouts, if they were hired at all. The more lucrative job opportunities for city-elves could very well lay in the mythical, infamous 'background' of Tuluk... partisan thief to a noble, assassin for a templar, or maybe even just a hunter for his tribe.
QuoteHow would I treat the templars and nobility and bards? How should I be expected to be treated by the authority and castes?
The general docs regarding city elves apply equally in both city-states. Elves would not trust or be trusted by authority figures, maybe even if they've worked together for years. Elves are marked citizens though, many of whom fought or were involved in the war, and I feel like Tulukis would swallow their distaste for politeness' sake. Behind closed doors though, it's anyone's guess.
QuoteWould I have social respect for being an artist, or still mistrusted for being an elf?
Among those who would be aware of it, I think the social status of an accomplished elven thief would be pretty high. Due to Tuluk's laws about thievery and its legality, any elven thief who enjoys a measure of success would be working closely with the templarate, both of them reaping the rewards. No elf would probably ever be admitted to a templar or noble's inner trusts, though. An elf's an elf, after all. I could see it more being a business thing.
QuoteWould I work for any of the tuluki nobility? Would a noble "buy me a beer" ?
Probably only as a partisan, and probably only late at night when nobody can see you come to their gates.
QuoteWhere would I live?
Depends on social standing, I would think. Could be anywhere from the the Poet's Circle to Under Tuluk.
QuoteWould I live in a family tribe, or a collective gang that acts like a tribe?
As Tuluk has a very tribal background, I'd likely say there would be a higher percentage of elves belonging to tribes than independent. The closest to a collective gang would be those who are in Rusarla Circle.
QuoteWhat jobs would I have?
Any profession you would find in a city, really.
QuoteHow would I treat the templars and nobility and bards?
I imagine centuries living within walls and human society would have accustomed c-elves to accommodating to authority apart from their own tribe. They would have a measure of outward respect just as any other Tuluki citizen would, and likely even some patriotism for the city-state they've lived in their whole life (at least the area in which their tribe works within), just as a d-elf would protect and watch over their tribe's territory.
QuoteHow should I be expected to be treated by the authority and castes?
You are a citizen, just as any other citizen, and would be expected to be treated as one in public. Privately, that's a different matter, as elves are notorious for being untrustworthy (for those who are biased, and with good reason of course ;)).
QuoteWould I have social respect for being an artist, or still mistrusted for being an elf?
As an expert in your profession, no matter what, you would have social respect. In terms of trust though, a human/dwarf/etc would trust another human/dwarf/etc more than an elf, with exceptions as there always are.
QuoteWhat did the city elven population do during the wars?
I would imagine they would try to gain as much from the situation as things would allow, either for themselves, or for their tribe. That could come in as many ways as an elf could imagine.
QuoteWould I work for any of the tuluki nobility?
Most likely the closest association to nobility an elf would get would be as a partisan. Elves would never be trusted enough to be placed in sensitive or important public/private positions. This is still better treatment than in Allanak, certainly.
QuoteWould a noble "buy me a beer" ?
Likely not. If a noble wanted to spend coins on an elf, it would be due to ulterior motives beyond wanting to be "friendly". ::)
In summary, c-elves in Tuluk are publicly better treated than in many parts of the world, but the underlying prejudices against elves that come with the elven culture and mindset still makes them not fully trusted and accepted by the other races. Though appearing on the surface as all is going good and well with others, a c-elf in Tuluk would still be scheming as any other elf for the next profit, likely more deceptive in their ways than in any other place. Considering that Tuluki culture mixes quite well with elven culture, simple tactics of deception used by an elf that may be successful in most parts of the Known World would be expected and prepared for by even the common populace. Thus, the difference for c-elves in Tuluk than for those in Allanak would be the level of deception, that being much higher in Tuluk being that it's become an art even for the common populace to employ.
One thing I would keep in mind when playing a Tuluki City-Elf:
Quote
These are law-abiding beings in a wealthy and artistic city that considers thievery an art, not starving malcontents in a quarantined ghetto struggling to survive.
Other than that, The Warrens seem like the appropriate place for most Tuluki City-Elves to dwell.
As I said in the "How Would You Improve City-Elves" thread, more documentation, more tribes, and more staff support are needed...
As has already been mentioned, Rusarla circle.
It's a unique background for an elf, and there's not a huge amount of player history to work with, so it's very creative and rewarding working out the relationships between the Rusarla elf, the non-elf Rusarla members, the nobility, the common population of Tuluk, foreign elves...
It's the jackpot career for a parasitic city elf. I had a stupidly fun time in this role a while back, but never had a PC tribe to work with. That would have made it amazing...
I have wanted to start a c-elf tribe in UnderTuluk....but too busy these days....:(
Quote from: titansfan on April 29, 2008, 10:54:45 PM
I have wanted to start a c-elf tribe in UnderTuluk....but too busy these days....:(
Just play UnderTuluk. You don't need to start a c-elf tribe. ;D
As for c-elves in Tuluk, I would imagine they're treated like scum, not trusted, and would have trouble finding any job short of self-employment or employment by another elf. They would likely live in the Warrens if they're poor, or UnderTuluk possibly if they have a criminal life that pays most of the bills.
-Elvenchipmunk
I had a dream last night that the staff had banned City-Elvens from Tuluk and it was no longer a playable race, instead they had replaced it with this race of beings that all looked like old, withered, hunched crones.
Erm.
Quote from: elvenchipmunk on April 29, 2008, 11:33:16 PM
Quote from: titansfan on April 29, 2008, 10:54:45 PM
I have wanted to start a c-elf tribe in UnderTuluk....but too busy these days....:(
Just play UnderTuluk. You don't need to start a c-elf tribe. ;D
As for c-elves in Tuluk, I would imagine they're treated like scum, not trusted, and would have trouble finding any job short of self-employment or employment by another elf. They would likely live in the Warrens if they're poor, or UnderTuluk possibly if they have a criminal life that pays most of the bills.
-Elvenchipmunk
Sounds like Allanak style, Elvenchipmunk. Tuluk is the place to go where mutants live and work and play. Why would elves be treated so differently?
Elves not only have the potential to thrive in Tuluk, but do. I don't quite understand the sentiment that they are despised and hated (at least in the north). Evidence is seen in the existence of a market dedicated to tribes, both city and outside elven tribes included, with decent commerce going in and out. It's not like some black market as it may be in other places...though such goods may pass hands unnoticed there, as in any other market. The biggest disadvantage to an elf, though, is that they have the reputation to be deceptive and conniving thieves, which they are. ;) That doesn't mean they are universally hated and treated as scum.
Quote from: mansa on April 30, 2008, 08:01:38 AM
Sounds like Allanak style, Elvenchipmunk. Tuluk is the place to go where mutants live and work and play. Why would elves be treated so differently?
I would say elves still have their natural, conniving roots, and they're still trying to swindle you out of shit all the time. I know Noble Houses (for the most part?) will not hire elves. Though...that point might actually be invalid because Noble Houses only hire partisans I think, hmm, and maybe an elf could get a job that way.
But what I meant in my post was that elves are still distrusted in Tuluk, even though mutants call that place home. It is likely not to the same degree as in Allanak, but an elf is an elf is an elf, I think. And it should be much harder for them to prove themselves to be trustworthy. Maybe that's the difference between Allanak and Tuluk? In Allanak, it is likely impossible for an elf to ever become anything. But in Tuluk, if the elf can prove themselves trustworthy, they might actually be accepted as someone close in social standing to a human. That being said I still don't think an elf in Tuluk would likely be able to ever attain the same degree of social standing as a human (that means the -highest- ranking human will never be less than the -highest- ranking elf, but one elf might be higher ranking in society than another human, obviously).
Yeah...hope to see more criminals in Tuluk ;D
-Elvenchipmunk
Quote from: Canticles on April 30, 2008, 09:19:12 AM
The biggest disadvantage to an elf, though, is that they have the reputation to be deceptive and conniving thieves, which they are.
Sounds like your average Tuluki... what's the difference?
Quote from: Sokotra on April 30, 2008, 12:01:27 PM
Quote from: Canticles on April 30, 2008, 09:19:12 AM
The biggest disadvantage to an elf, though, is that they have the reputation to be deceptive and conniving thieves, which they are.
Sounds like your average Tuluki... what's the difference?
There's a lot to be said for subtlety in Tuluk, but being subtle (or Tuluki) does not always = being a deceptive and conniving thief.
Subtlety in Tuluk for the average Tuluki pervades at all levels, not just in the areas of skullduggery.
However, first impression of elves would normally = being a deceptive and conniving thief, regardless of origin.
The best Elves and the best Tulukis are played subtly... So the best place to play an Elf is Tuluk... Right?
It seems that there should be a much larger niche for City Elves in Tuluk than in Allanak. Especially considering "recent" events that forced everyone in the north to band together (bringing the nobles and commoners closer), it seems logical that the bond between City Elves and Humans would've strengthened as well. After all, they have all worked together to rebuild a "luxuriant" and artistic city from rubble and ashes.
Alas, there is only one staff-supported and documented city-elf group in the game. And it is far from Tuluk.
... are game for the larger species?
Play more city elves!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......that's all......
I need more places to piss.
C-elves, people.
I have been seeing a buttload of c-elves. I don't see a need for MORE.
Personally I want to see more half-giants than I do city elves.
C-elves are dirty, and stupid. All they do is prance around with smelly faces. Poo on C-elves.
Quote from: psionic fungus on May 02, 2008, 05:13:15 AM
The best Elves and the best Tulukis are played subtly... So the best place to play an Elf is Tuluk... Right?
It seems that there should be a much larger niche for City Elves in Tuluk than in Allanak. Especially considering "recent" events that forced everyone in the north to band together (bringing the nobles and commoners closer), it seems logical that the bond between City Elves and Humans would've strengthened as well. After all, they have all worked together to rebuild a "luxuriant" and artistic city from rubble and ashes.
Alas, there is only one staff-supported and documented city-elf group in the game. And it is far from Tuluk.
I think I would like C-Elves better if they all belonged to clearly defined tribes that were obviously recognizable to most outsiders. I'm sure plenty of C-Elves have vNPC tribes written into their backgrounds, but I have never ever heard a city elf mention their tribe before, ever. I would like it better if C-Elves, like D-Elves, had to belong to coded and written tribes.
I'd like to see a place in tuluk where elves feel more comfortable. There's no elf exclusive warren or ghetto and there's confusion at times what an elf IS when encountering them. Did it just crawl out of the sewer? There's no elf territory, that's what I mean to say.
The C-elves should have a tribe in both cities. They are like the D-elves but they live in the city. I would love to see some C-elf orgazine(SP) a tribe for them. I wish I was a C-elf...
QuoteTo an elf, tribe is key. The tribe is almost always placed before the individual for an elf.
That's my point.
There are two races that suffer from a lack of culture and purpose: city elves and dwarves. The dwarves' saving grace is that they can join most clans, and that they're not hindered by terrible coded disadvantages. The city elves are not so lucky.
The riding issue is obvious, and not much can be done about it. It's hugely prohibitive because most players desire one of two things: to join a clan with a clearly defined place in the game world, or to roam the world and do their thing. City elves are more or less incapable of doing either. Once in a blue moon, some city elf makes sergeant in the Byn or something like that, but obviously this is something that happens once every other year and isn't something to rely on. Personally, I think it's rather idiotic that city elves refuse to ride because they pride themselves in an ability to run which they don't have. Unfortunately, this can't just be changed out of the blue without making things incredibly jarring.
Besides the inability to travel, this race also suffers from absolutely horrible stats, making any combat-related role more of a challenge than most are willing to deal with. City elves are simply worse than any other playable race in this regard, and coupled with the fact that your only choice for meaningful employment is the Byn, you practically never see city elf warriors. Being an elf in the Byn sucks. They could make passable assassins, but that profession is enough of a challenge without adding awful stats, social stigma and the confinement to one location.
Non-combat roles are a possibility, but a city elf merchant is a laughable concept from an OOC perspective. Burglars and pickpockets don't suffer too much from the pathetic strength and endurance of this race, so this is the guild of choice for most. Unfortunately, for the above-mentioned reasons, being a thief with one or two friends in the world and no culture to speak of is not particularly entertaining in itself. The thieving guilds are not very diverse in the first place, and it takes quite a bit of effort to play a criminal, especially when you're often the only PC of your race in the entire city.
QuoteI think I would like C-Elves better if they all belonged to clearly defined tribes that were obviously recognizable to most outsiders. I'm sure plenty of C-Elves have vNPC tribes written into their backgrounds, but I have never ever heard a city elf mention their tribe before, ever. I would like it better if C-Elves, like D-Elves, had to belong to coded and written tribes.
I agree. If they had some larger, well-known clan to give them purpose and significance, I'm sure we would see more city elves. With as many options for clanning and roles as this game has, playing an almost completely unsupported and unwanted race is not very appealing.
First, however, I think the simplest and most effective step in the right direction would be to change the stat system. Make agility matter more, and make crappy strength less of a disadvantage. This would go a long way towards getting more players to play this sad race. If each city had half a dozen active elves, the culture might evolve naturally.
The impression that I get when I think about city-elves is that they have really been left behind by the game. And that nobody has given any thought to their position in the game.
I do want to point out that I think city elves do have more opportunity in Tuluk. There is room for lawful sneaks, bards and even patronage relationships.
But in the south, non-'rinthi elves are even more restricted than gemmers. An unemployable mutant gemmer can at least leave the city on a mount.
Quote from: Good Gortok on January 25, 2009, 04:00:57 PM
Personally, I think it's rather idiotic that city elves refuse to ride because they pride themselves in an ability to run which they don't have. Unfortunately, this can't just be changed out of the blue without making things incredibly jarring.
I honestly wouldn't have any problems whatsoever letting c-elves ride.
But that's just me.
Tribes are important for c-elves. And for quite some time (last few years) I have been working on writing up some cool docs for different tribes. In the near future I'll try to submit some of them with hopes of bringing a more playable nature to city elves. Just haven't had time to perfect much.
Quote from: titansfan on January 25, 2009, 06:40:49 PM
Tribes are important for c-elves. And for quite some time (last few years) I have been working on writing up some cool docs for different tribes. In the near future I'll try to submit some of them with hopes of bringing a more playable nature to city elves. Just haven't had time to perfect much.
Thank you! I would join you for the fun!
I'm wondering if I should start a new thread to discuss ways of improving the race. Hmmm.
Maybe you should. :)
Well, I havn't played one for at least a couple of years, so I don't know all of it is still an issue...
Quote from: titansfan on January 25, 2009, 06:40:49 PM
Tribes are important for c-elves. And for quite some time (last few years) I have been working on writing up some cool docs for different tribes. In the near future I'll try to submit some of them with hopes of bringing a more playable nature to city elves. Just haven't had time to perfect much.
Sounds great man. I'm definently be making a c-elf sometime very soon.
I'll systematically be opening family roles.....keep an eyes open or send me a PM if you have an absolutely stunning concept or just want more info.
Quote from: titansfan on January 25, 2009, 06:40:49 PM
Tribes are important for c-elves. And for quite some time (last few years) I have been working on writing up some cool docs for different tribes. In the near future I'll try to submit some of them with hopes of bringing a more playable nature to city elves.
Fat chance. Coded c-elf tribes already exist, but there hasn't been enough interest in them from either players or staff, so I don't think there's room for more. Props for fighting for our underprivileged and oppressed skinny neighbors though!
There is information on the city elves of the Rinth. If enough people got together, maybe an imm would be interested in setting one of these clans back up. You guys are not the first to spark interest in the elven clans.
The way the coded clans in the 'rinth are set up, it's far too easy to abuse the NPCs, even if unintentionally.
I was playing one a while back, and I think I got a couple of PCs killed just by talking enough shit that they tried backstabbing me. Well...my 6 hidden clannies (who -I- didn't even know were there) didn't take too kindly to them kind of shenanigans.
It's even worse when you attack someone just to warn them off, and a bunch of ninja-ass NPCs rappel down from the rooftops and hand out an ultimate beatdown...then it looks like you actually planned it.
I mean, it was pretty damn hilarious from my point of view...but I feel bad for the poor guy who got insta-ganked because he didn't believe the bandana really meant anything. :-\
Quote from: Synthesis on February 05, 2009, 10:55:00 PM
I was playing one a while back, and I think I got a couple of PCs killed just by talking enough shit that they tried backstabbing me. Well...my 6 hidden clannies (who -I- didn't even know were there) didn't take too kindly to them kind of shenanigans.
Even in the most civilized places in the game, you should be careful who you attack, let alone the Rinth which has its own unique ways of operating. It was a bad way to get gacked, but I think being one of the Powers That Be in the Rinth would still be a nice experience to have again. It just means that the people who aren't one of yours need to be careful...and they already should be careful if they're in the Rinth anyway.
Done.
Linky?
Whuzzah?
04/19/2009: Docs written for c-elf tribal project -- Shalooonsh
04/19/2009: 4 items created for c-elf tribal project -- Shalooonsh
04/19/2009: 8 rooms created for c-elf tribal project -- Shalooonsh
04/19/2009: 13 NPCs created for c-elf tribal project -- Shalooonsh
Whatever it is, damn, it's looking good.
AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Now that I've stuck a firecracker in the ant's nest...
QuoteThe Akai Sjir, known as The Bejewelled Hand in sirihish, are a an old tribe of city elves out of
Tuluk who have become quite renowned for stone working and artistry. Consisting of several main
families, the Hand are known to take individual elves as associates. Outspoken and social, the tribe is
known for dealing in goods of all sorts from inside and outside the walls of His Ivory.
Details forthcoming.
Oh man the hand
And their sister tribe, the foot, from the sewers in undertuluk
oh no, more neckers! it's been bad enough with the d-elf popularity lately. ;)
OH BEJESUS SHALOOONY I LOVE YOU. <3
Quote from: mansa on April 19, 2009, 11:42:22 PM
Oh man the hand
And their sister tribe, the foot, from the sewers in undertuluk
If we have a Foot clan, I'm joining immediately.
Quote from: Riev on April 20, 2009, 01:21:01 AM
Quote from: mansa on April 19, 2009, 11:42:22 PM
Oh man the hand
And their sister tribe, the foot, from the sewers in undertuluk
If we have a Foot clan, I'm joining immediately.
Will their enemies be the teenage mutant ninja gurth?
Amish Overlord 8)
Out of curiosity, any plans to open up the existing clan in Allanak? or creating a new tribe for Allanak?
I would have preferred an overall tweaking to city elves.
Not to say I mind the work done on the tribe. A city elf tribe in Tuluk is certainly welcome.
I just don't think it's going to solve the problems of the race as I see it. What I really want to see is an elven niche in the cities beyond being sneaky/thievish.
Wait and see, I guess.
Being sneaky and thievish seems like a perfectly good niche to me. Yay for the new tribe, tempting to roll a city-elf in Tuluk now!
Yeah, I think elves should stay sneaky and thievish. Elves being functional in society is like.. like.. a halfling trading with humans. Or a 'gicker being accepted.
Quote from: SMuz on April 20, 2009, 06:24:01 AM
Yeah, I think elves should stay sneaky and thievish. Elves being functional in society is like.. like.. a halfling trading with humans. Or a 'gicker being accepted.
That's just a plain wrong statement. Elves have been functional in society for a very long time. They consist of as much the populace of Zalanthas as humans, how could they not function in society?
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 20, 2009, 06:52:12 AM
Quote from: SMuz on April 20, 2009, 06:24:01 AM
Yeah, I think elves should stay sneaky and thievish. Elves being functional in society is like.. like.. a halfling trading with humans. Or a 'gicker being accepted.
That's just a plain wrong statement. Elves have been functional in society for a very long time. They consist of as much the populace of Zalanthas as humans, how could they not function in society?
Yeah, I agree. An entire race of thieves and shadies couldn't exist.
Quote from: RogueGunslinger on April 20, 2009, 06:52:12 AM
Quote from: SMuz on April 20, 2009, 06:24:01 AM
Yeah, I think elves should stay sneaky and thievish. Elves being functional in society is like.. like.. a halfling trading with humans. Or a 'gicker being accepted.
That's just a plain wrong statement. Elves have been functional in society for a very long time. They consist of as much the populace of Zalanthas as humans, how could they not function in society?
In elven society, definitely. If elves had their own cities, they'd be perfectly functional there. In human society, naturally not. Too arrogant to travel far from the city. And they're not too untrustable for hiring for other purposes. They've brought themselves to their own doom.
I think it's only natural that they end up as thieves and shadies, there's nothing else for them to do to survive. It compounds with their cultural respect for thieves. And I'd enjoy the challenge of trying to play an elf to climb out of the stereotype of being nothing more than a sleazy thief.
Badass, Shaloooonsh. I can hardly wait to try them out.
Elves can and do find plenty of things to do to survive other than steal. Stealing is, at least, a minor part of an elf's life. It's meant to be a test of courage and wit. Certainly, the stereotype is far different from the truth.
That said, Shal's new c-elf tribe seems pretty awesome. I think it will make a good difference and I think we'll be seeing more interesting elves popping up.
To those who are about to die, we salute you.
I predict this will be a colossal exercise in futility.
That doesn't mean I don't love you, Shalooonsh...but city-elves are hopelessly borked.
Yes, hopelessly borked, that's why they've been fine all these years.
It's okay, I love killing you too, Synthesis.
We'll see.
Quote from: Ramblingman on April 20, 2009, 02:47:04 AM
Out of curiosity, any plans to open up the existing clan in Allanak? or creating a new tribe for Allanak?
?
Quote from: Ramblingman on April 20, 2009, 02:46:46 PM
Quote from: Ramblingman on April 20, 2009, 02:47:04 AM
Out of curiosity, any plans to open up the existing clan in Allanak? or creating a new tribe for Allanak?
?
No.
Edited to add: Because Allanaki city elves are hopelessly borked.
*still waiting for the day he can play is elven powerbroker/mercenary/ferengi merchant/non-sneaky*
I'd ask staff not to get bitter about it, but it's my oppinion that elves are way too restricted to be any fun to play. Hopelessly borked might not be the right way to put it, but I'm really not interested in playing a c-elf until I can break the present mold.
Have you guys even read the description for this tribe?
They're renowned for their stonework and artistry.
Edited to be less snarky.
Quote from: a strange shadow on April 20, 2009, 03:12:02 PM
Have you guys even read the description for this tribe?
They're renowned for their stonework and artistry.
Edited to be less snarky.
I don't think one clan is going to fix things for the race itself, but I'll reserve my judgement.
Quote from: Jingo on April 20, 2009, 03:10:29 PM
*still waiting for the day he can play is elven powerbroker/mercenary/ferengi merchant/non-sneaky*
I'd ask staff not to get bitter about it, but it's my oppinion that elves are way too restricted to be any fun to play. Hopelessly borked might not be the right way to put it, but I'm really not interested in playing a c-elf until I can break the present mold.
Gosh... if only there were a tribe where something like that could fit in.
Hmmm.
QuoteThe Akai Sjir, known as The Bejewelled Hand in sirihish, are a an old tribe of city elves out of
Tuluk who have become quite renowned for stone working and artistry. Consisting of several main
families, the Hand are known to take individual elves as associates. Outspoken and social, the tribe is
known for dealing in goods of all sorts from inside and outside the walls of His Ivory.
Nope. No room for that here. Drats.
(this post made in sarcasm font)
Quote from: Shalooonsh on April 20, 2009, 02:45:47 PM
Yes, hopelessly borked, that's why they've been fine all these years.
It's okay, I love killing you too, Synthesis.
We'll see.
City-elves were fine all those years before the defense and wisdom nerfs. Nowadays? Not so much. Very rarely, you see some veteran player who takes up the challenge and rolls up a city elf simply to be contrarian, but that's about it. The rest are newbs who haven't figured out how much simpler it is to roll a half-elf and not be saddled with the city restriction, racism, and hopelessly pathetic strength.
(I mean, seriously...I could PM you with all the gripes I had about my last 12 day c-elf assassin, especially in comparison to my last 12 day dwarf assassin, but I'm not going to do it here.)
YAI
Now do it in 'nak.
Apologies for doubting the 'Loonsh
Quote from: Jingo on April 20, 2009, 03:31:46 PM
YAI
Now do it in 'nak.
Apologies for doubting the 'Loonsh
There are plans, however, I have about 40 other projects to focus on, so I can, in no way, guarantee when the work on that project will advance.
I'm glad to see this happen. I simply love city elves. Sure they don't have strength physically and yes they get discriminated, but all that can be overcome. Trust me. This tribe will increase the fun of city elves in Tuluk immensely. If I didn't have a current character I enjoy I would put in an app immediately for this role being that I have experienced this exact kind of thing before.
Shalooonsh I salute you and your hard work. It means alot to see Imms trying to create something new to the game that will add fun to a race that has been overall lacking in background in the recent past.
I know players of elven characters who would disagree with you on many levels, Synthesis.
It's not really fair to compare the strength of a city elf to that of a dwarf, though.
You have to take into consideration the pros and cons that a city elf must deal with, in regards to both stat rolls and social perceptions.
Elves are by far my favorite race to play.
Quote from: Eloran on April 20, 2009, 04:15:12 PM
I know players of elven characters who would disagree with you on many levels, Synthesis.
It's not really fair to compare the strength of a city elf to that of a dwarf, though.
You have to take into consideration the pros and cons that a city elf must deal with, in regards to both stat rolls and social perceptions.
I just finished playing a very skilled c-elf assassin with decent stats. Believe me, I know all the pros and cons. Don't assume that because someone disagrees with you, they don't have access to the relevant facts of the matter.
I think it -is- fair to compare strengths, because strength is virtually the end-all, be-all of combat now. Agility is definitely no substitute for it, even when it comes to my personal favorite skill.
There are zero reasons to pick c-elf, in my opinion, from a code perspective. If you want to roleplay the part: sure, go ahead. I think people should go in knowing that they will be at a rather severe disadvantage to every other race, though.
As always Synthesis, you're absolutely right. Your experiences trump my own. Nevermind the fact that I've witnessed a city elf OHK with a single backstab on more than one occassion.
Yes, the defense nerf hurt.
No, the defense nerf has not made city elves unplayable.
Quote from: Eloran on April 20, 2009, 04:55:53 PM
As always Synthesis, you're absolutely right. Your experiences trump my own. Nevermind the fact that I've witnessed a city elf OHK with a single backstab on more than one occassion.
Yes, the defense nerf hurt.
No, the defense nerf has not made city elves unplayable.
Okay, man, whatever you say.
All the hyperbole on your part is just setting a bunch of newbs up for failure, though.
Me? I'll keep playing the humans and dwarves who teach those newbs what is -really- the case.
I'd expect no less from you, Synthesis.
Oh wait, I almost forgot for a moment that this game isn't just about coded prowess. Silly me.
Everyone seems to cop to the "but, but, but ROLEPLAY!" defense when they know I'm right, but can't bring themselves to admit it.
:-*
Quote from: Synthesis on April 20, 2009, 05:24:39 PM
Everyone seems to cop to the "but, but, but ROLEPLAY!" defense when they know I'm right, but can't bring themselves to admit it.
No, it's not that. Maybe we're just here for different reasons.
I've never played a c-elf and don't have any plans to play one in the forseeable future. Giving a rating on what might draw me to try one sometime, I'd give souped up strength, the ability to OHK, nearly godlike ability to steal about 2/10. I'd give a viable and interesting roleplay niche via a coded tribe about 7/10.
I can't think of anything I've done in game that's really made me happy that had anything to do with the code, except for crafting until I had the skill to mastercraft an item.
Play nice.
I'm not in the mood for petty spats.
Quote from: jcljules on April 20, 2009, 05:48:57 PM
I can't think of anything I've done in game that's really made me happy that had anything to do with the code, except for crafting until I had the skill to mastercraft an item.
Ditto! Playing an elf to me, is all about the mindset. That is what sets them apart to me than the other races. Scratch the code.
There are more reasons to play city-elves then one-hit-kills.
One Hit Kill.
This thread is about elves in Tuluk, not about Elves and their coded abilities. There are other threads for that.
http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,30454.0.html
Yes, one of the main points of this thread was playing City Elves in Tuluk.
Which got turned into a -you know what, there is a lack of "background/purpose" for them there, so I'll make a clan and give them reason - while ignoring the fact that the place they have been, and are much more suited too, remains broken, with a staff opinion that they will not be fixed in that area.
City-Elves are more suited to Allanak. They had an existing clan, that is just considered 'broken'. Im not all that partial to this idea, because it adds more to the game rather then fixing/addressing what is not working.
I, for one, am glad to see this happening. Especially for stone workers and masons, because it opens up all sorts of avenues for cheap (slave) labor on a giant statue of me to put next to the Ivory.
Seriously though, if this tribe can actually work together, be a part of the crafting community, take a niche market and run with it, and overall increase the C-Elf activity to something more than "the very tall figure sneakily moves south" in every room, I'm FOR it.
If I had the inclination or overall ability to be in the mindset for an Elf, Shal, it'd be an honor to be in your clan. That is, until it gets hopelessly borked because c-elves are not a perfect choice for warriors (apparently)
My most dangerous PCs have been celfs.
Quote from: Turbomatic Tribal on April 20, 2009, 08:27:16 PM
My most dangerous PCs have been celfs.
I got 8 or 9 pkills with my c-elf...zero with my dwarf (in fact, I was ultimately pkilled by an elf). I would -still- refuse to play the c-elf again.
The dwarf was -much- more dangerous, really. I just had zero inclination to be murderous, because I could you know, go and do constructive shit and be useful to people, instead of trolling the 'rinth looking for newbs to kill for money to survive.
Edited to add: Woah, big surprise there, right? I would rather roleplay than backstab newbs. I'm sure that's a bit of a shock to some of you.
Synth, you don't have to prove yourself. I love you unconditionally.
The first word to come to mind is "joke". Because this is one of the finest forms of staff pandering.
As I already said in an earlier post, rather than fix something that was admitted in this thread to be broken, the staff add something that again tips the player-base-scales in a direction that defies what the game has been for several years prior to the recent direction.
In this thread alone, the following things were discussed:
City elves in Tuluk
City Elves - in terms of the race alone and its place in the world
City Elves - role playability
City Elves - their prior existence in Allanak
City Elves - "being bloked"
And the following was decided:
-Rather than fix already existing framework for great role playability and placement in the world (i.e. the city elf tribe in allanak), more attention will be put on a brand new, and entirely (priorly) undeveloped sect of city elves in tuluk.
-Rather than address existing problems in the race and its existence in the two major areas of play, we will distract the public with something "new and exiciting" - i.e. a new tribe, documentation, interactions, and sponsered roles.
And to support all this, we will have the FASTEST turn around for a role-call... i.e, less than 48 hours to fill sponsored roles, for the aforementioned created fiasco.
To summarize-
An existing problem, acknowledged -in this thread alone- goes ignored. A new clan is created. A race is left broken. And a certain area is promoted above another. And people say the favoritism argument is null and void?
Blah. That was my initial reaction too. But I'm happy with the way things are moving.
Give it a chance to work out. We can bitch about in three months if you've tried it and still doesn't work.
The only thing wrong with celfs, imo, is that they lacked a clan they could join and be equals with most-everybody besides the Byn. (And even that was iffy because of the nature of contracts.) I don't see this as a band-aid fix, but the very fix that was needed all along.
Honestly, IMHO, playing an elf is about the roleplay. OK, maybe some of you enjoy the roleplay of being a badass warrior who can kill with one hit. Nothing wrong with that, it's normal. But if that's what you're looking for, you shouldn't be playing an elf. If you don't like the fact that c-elves don't like riding mounts or have an instinct to steal, then it's just not the race for you. It's like making a half-giant burglar and then complaining that half-giants can't steal. C-elves shouldn't be able to OHK backstab; just don't have the strength for it.
And the stereotype - that's fun. You can very well play a c-elf artisan or mercenary. Nothing stopping you. Overcoming the stereotype and getting people to trust you would be the very reason why I'd like to make a c-elf merchant. And having a compulsive instinct to rob a client would be all the more fun for it. I personally have made and would make more c-elf warriors for the sake of roleplaying an elf warrior.
This new clan looks like it'll help with things. It'll certainly be interesting and I'd love to watch this and see how it works.
BTW, I think there's a typo in the contact email on clan info. And it's interesting that they're using the desert elves email :P
Quote from: Ramblingman on April 21, 2009, 05:05:44 AM
The first word to come to mind is "joke". Because this is one of the finest forms of staff pandering.
As I already said in an earlier post, rather than fix something that was admitted in this thread to be broken, the staff add something that again tips the player-base-scales in a direction that defies what the game has been for several years prior to the recent direction.
In this thread alone, the following things were discussed:
City elves in Tuluk
City Elves - in terms of the race alone and its place in the world
City Elves - role playability
City Elves - their prior existence in Allanak
City Elves - "being bloked"
And the following was decided:
-Rather than fix already existing framework for great role playability and placement in the world (i.e. the city elf tribe in allanak), more attention will be put on a brand new, and entirely (priorly) undeveloped sect of city elves in tuluk.
-Rather than address existing problems in the race and its existence in the two major areas of play, we will distract the public with something "new and exiciting" - i.e. a new tribe, documentation, interactions, and sponsered roles.
And to support all this, we will have the FASTEST turn around for a role-call... i.e, less than 48 hours to fill sponsored roles, for the aforementioned created fiasco.
To summarize-
An existing problem, acknowledged -in this thread alone- goes ignored. A new clan is created. A race is left broken. And a certain area is promoted above another. And people say the favoritism argument is null and void?
Would you like some cheese with that?
Perhaps this thread was poorly named. As misleading as it sounds, the title is still apt, let me break it down for you.
"City elves" being a race of city based elves.
"in" pertaining to their state of being
"Tuluk" being the geographical location which is being discussed at this point.
If you would care to make a thread about "Oppressed, Unloved, Unwanted Elves of Allanak" then I advise you do so. You can feel free to chat them up however you want. In fact, please feel free to also make a "Sharp Ears Ignored In Cenyr" thread. Maybe one about Steinal as well, while you're up to speed.
It is possible (maybe not probable, in your eyes) that the Staff could know more about the needs of the game than you do. We focus our time and effort in improving the game as a whole. It's what we are 'all about.' It is, in fact, 'how we roll.' It is our thing. Our milieu.
Fact: Before the new clan, there was one Tuluki faction that dealt heavily with elves, and had no background.
Fact: There are two world spanning factions in Allanak which deal with elves, in play currently, which have long standing histories.
Fact: There are problems with the southern tribe option as it stands.
Fact: There are two elven factions who deal heavily with southern city elves.
Fact: There have been many, MANY gangs and small tribes formed by elven players over the last five years, all of which have seemed rather enjoyable to the players involved. The same has not, to my knowledge, occurred in Tuluk.
We took a long look at what the WORLD (not you, not several other players, but the world itself) needed. It was determined that since Tuluk had never had a city elf faction, that one should be created. One with a good history, roots in the community, and something that would fit in in Tuluk. One which could include all manner of players, all interests of character, and help to bring elven society to life in a place where it had mostly been barren.
Here's an interesting quote:
QuoteTo summarize-
An existing problem, acknowledged -in this thread alone- goes ignored. A new clan is created. A race is left broken. And a certain area is promoted above another. And people say the favoritism argument is null and void?
Seriously? You're taking what I said here as literal?
QuoteYes, hopelessly borked, that's why they've been fine all these years.
It's okay, I love killing you too, Synthesis.
We'll see.
Or maybe here?
QuoteEdited to add: Because Allanaki city elves are hopelessly borked.
Really? I'm sorry if my sarcasm didn't bleed through. Those responses were made in jest.
I realize you don't agree with what we've done. That's tough. Staff perspective is "what could improve the game as a whole" instead of "what could improve life in this one section." That's exactly what has been done.
Sorry if you don't agree.
Quote from: SMuz on April 21, 2009, 06:50:33 AM
BTW, I think there's a typo in the contact email on clan info. And it's interesting that they're using the desert elves email :P
Not a typo, this is intended. This doesn't mean they're desert elves, but just that they are tribal elves. Changing desert_elves@ over to tribal_elves@ would make us lose a few reports, however it could be a good idea in the long run. I'll open up the idea of changing the name to other staff members.
So, we actually send apps and questions to desert_elves@armageddon.org@armageddon.org, or shalooonsh@armageddon@armageddon.org?
Quote from: SMuz on April 21, 2009, 09:25:20 AM
So, we actually send apps and questions to desert_elves@armageddon.org@armageddon.org, or shalooonsh@armageddon@armageddon.org?
Something was up with the way the email aliases were being transmitted on the clan information page. I fixed the problem on the Akai Sjir links.
Quote from: SMuz on April 21, 2009, 09:25:20 AM
So, we actually send apps and questions to desert_elves@armageddon.org@armageddon.org, or shalooonsh@armageddon@armageddon.org?
My apologies, SMuz, I didn't look to see what you were referring to. I assumed (wrongly) that your notice of an error was on the desert_elves part, not the @@@@@@@@@@ part.
Again reaffirming my need to invent an alarm clock/coffee maker/intravenous delivery system.
Well, thank you, Looonshy, Nyr, and any other staff who worked on this. I think it will be fun, can't wait to try one out myself. It has all my favorite parts... Tuluk, tribals, tribals that are elves.
Where does it say people in Tuluk are jerks to elves? Whats with the racism? Are you guys serious? Elves in Tuluk should receive the same basic respect as humans and rudeness should be treated as such.
Aren't Rinthi's and UT's the real scum? Elves aren't slaves, certainly not the lowest of the low.
I think if you're rude to an elf in Tuluk, you deserve the worst. In everyones eyes.
Quote from: Versu on August 16, 2009, 03:46:52 AM
Where does it say people in Tuluk are jerks to elves? Whats with the racism? Are you guys serious? Elves in Tuluk should receive the same basic respect as humans and rudeness should be treated as such.
Aren't Rinthi's and UT's the real scum? Elves aren't slaves, certainly not the lowest of the low.
I think if you're rude to an elf in Tuluk, you deserve the worst. In everyones eyes.
Trollfail is fail.
However, this new change that was instituted has really changed my outlook of elves. I may even help one that tripped on the road one day, if I really didn't care about my coinpouch.
Quote from: Versu on August 16, 2009, 03:46:52 AM
Where does it say people in Tuluk are jerks to elves? Whats with the racism? Are you guys serious? Elves in Tuluk should receive the same basic respect as humans and rudeness should be treated as such.
Aren't Rinthi's and UT's the real scum? Elves aren't slaves, certainly not the lowest of the low.
I think if you're rude to an elf in Tuluk, you deserve the worst. In everyones eyes.
I honestly thought this was a joke post at first, but to answer your question:
Quote
Race Elf
Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas, closely following humans. They are taller than humans--mostly standing between around 74 and 90 inches in height--and tend to have slim, light frames. Skin color ranges from nearly black to pale cream colors; hair is typically dark but shares a similar range of hues. Eye color among elves is a matter of extraordinary variability. Elven ears are always pointed, and their eyes always almond-shaped. There are two varieties of elves: city elves and desert elves.
City elves are scattered across the settled places of Zalanthas, and have adapted to live by their wits. True to the nature of elves they also live by their quick fingers, and are usually avoided by the honest citizens of other races. Some city elves are members of tribes camped in some run- down space within its walls; others lead shiftless lives with no ties of loyalty at all.
Desert elves are nearly always members of desert tribes, and wander freely about the wastes hunting for what they need. They tend to be darker in skin color than city elves, as well as leaner and more muscular, but not necessarily stronger. Elves are very long-limbed, and desert elves are runners by nature, capable of a prolonged run across most types of terrain.
The differences between city elves and desert elves are only the result of their differing lifestyles--there is only one elven race.
Roleplaying:
Descended from (or currently a member of) any one of the many desert tribes, all elves have a cultural bent towards wandering and thievery. Among elves, theft that relies on wit or nimble fingers is not a crime, per se, but more of a test of courage. Highly distrustful of all persons outside their immediate tribe, elves will often go to great lengths to test the trustworthiness of any companion. Due to their nature as runners, all elves find the riding of mounts (and usually, riding in wagons) to be an extremely shameful act--though a few can forgive the riding habits of other races. In other words, elves will never ride on mounts or in wagons, as to do so would be to insult one of the few things they are proud of: their natural speed and endurance on the run.
PS: My own opinion....
1) If you are not trying to rip off non-your-tribe elves, you're role playing an elf badly.
2) If you are trying to rip someone off, they have every right to be rude to you.
therefore:
If you are role playing an elf correctly, they have every right to be rude to you.
I have nothing against elves. I mean, they're greedy, thieving, murderous, shiftless, clannish and dull-witted.... and elves in Tuluk lack the common sense and decency to live out in the brush, where I don't have to smell them... but everyone in the Ivory City is just one big, happy family, thanks to the candy and unicorn filled sunshine rained down by His Glorious Light.
I... hate elves. In general. In Tuluk or out of Tuluk. But one thing that's really aggravating is to see some of the things I'm seeing from the perspective I'm seeing them in. I don't want to troll. So I won't. I think the newest clan in Tuluk is extremely well thought-out and very detailed. I lurve the immortal running the clan, but I don't see for shit why anyone would feel like they -should- trust an elf. Sorry, but if the second most populous group in the Known World all tend toward theivery.... I'm going to want to... not get ripped off. I might be polite on the surface or the places where they might find out. But that's so hard and so far from liking them that it's not even funny. Quick question, though... How many clanned c-elves are running around in Tuluk to the number of people in each GMH or in any given noble house? And especially in relation to the amount of people in Human Tribal clans. Good for the the changes to the game world. Good for the niche it's providing for people who like elves. Good for me. I've been driven to explore the possibility of playing mostly in areas outside Tuluk with future PCs unless I want to deal with loads of elves. Yeah, VNPC's.... great for them. But I'm not gonna feel shit for not interacting with your sharpear. You see all those NPC and VNPC sharpears I'm also not interacting with? That's because they're scum, too.
Elves are widely known for being dirty scamming thieves, regardless of affiliation or origin. Everyone (even elves) know that elves lean towards stealing from anyone not in their tribe, including other elves. (Yes, even "Tuluki elves" can be hated on for this reason, whether or not they have a thief's license and if they are from a certain tribe.) Most people would avoid them or ridicule them unless they made themselves useful for something, in which case the average person would begrudgingly work with them and ensure they get the best deal they can possibly get from a thief.
Quote from: Prodikus on August 16, 2009, 04:03:33 AM
I have nothing against elves. I mean, they're greedy, thieving, murderous, shiftless, clannish and dull-witted.... and elves in Tuluk lack the common sense and decency to live out in the brush, where I don't have to smell them... but everyone in the Ivory City is just one big, happy family, thanks to the candy and unicorn filled sunshine rained down by His Glorious Light.
I'm not sure what you're after but if it's the same old Tuluk bashing, take it somewhere else.
In my opinion, elves fit in very well in Tuluk society. They are "greedy, thieving, murderous, shiftless" in many cases, though I don't agree with dull-witted. As it happens, one can register (and the smart ones do) to be a
legally operating thief and assassin in Tuluk, and it is considered an artform.
There is conflict in Tuluk. It usually happens below the surface (and I don't mean UnderTuluk only). Everyone in Tuluk knows that there is conflict, but they also see how organizations, races and various groups don't wage outright war against eachother. Subtlety isn't for every player and PC. It's worth giving a try, but if it isn't for you, there are many other options.
Quote from: AmandaGreathouse on August 16, 2009, 05:24:55 AM
... but I don't see for shit why anyone would feel like they -should- trust an elf. Sorry, but if the second most populous group in the Known World all tend toward theivery.... I'm going to want to... not get ripped off.
Trust is and should be rare. Then again, you don't have to trust everyone. Actually if you do, you'll likely get ripped off, regardless of whether you deal with humans or elves. The coded c-elf tribe in Tuluk fills a function, which is evident from the activity and business it has seen since it was introduced. There are certain things that they do that are sought for, and they also hold an interesting social position in the city. They are still elves and should face the regular difficulties, and I believe they do. I simply think that if you're Commoner Malik from the Warrens, you don't try to bully a pretty strong tribe. If you come from outside Tuluk, meet one of these elves in a public spot and insult them openly, you'll get odd looks for more than one reason. That's Tuluki culture though, and nothing specific or unique to Tuluki elves.
Quote
I might be polite on the surface or the places where they might find out. But that's so hard and so far from liking them that it's not even funny.
You don't have to like them. Who said you should like elves?
Quote
Quick question, though... How many clanned c-elves are running around in Tuluk to the number of people in each GMH or in any given noble house? And especially in relation to the amount of people in Human Tribal clans. Good for the the changes to the game world. Good for the niche it's providing for people who like elves. Good for me. I've been driven to explore the possibility of playing mostly in areas outside Tuluk with future PCs unless I want to deal with loads of elves. Yeah, VNPC's.... great for them. But I'm not gonna feel shit for not interacting with your sharpear. You see all those NPC and VNPC sharpears I'm also not interacting with? That's because they're scum, too.
No idea how many, but I think they're fewer than you believe them to be. I'm not sure what your point is in the rest of that paragraph. But anyway, sometimes there's a load of half-elves running around. Sometimes it's half-giants. Another time it's city elves. Since elves are the second most populous race in Zalanthas, I can't see how it's much of a problem.
Quote from: Cutthroat on August 16, 2009, 07:40:41 AM
Elves are widely known for being dirty scamming thieves, regardless of affiliation or origin. Everyone (even elves) know that elves lean towards stealing from anyone not in their tribe, including other elves. (Yes, even "Tuluki elves" can be hated on for this reason, whether or not they have a thief's license and if they are from a certain tribe.) Most people would avoid them or ridicule them unless they made themselves useful for something, in which case the average person would begrudgingly work with them and ensure they get the best deal they can possibly get from a thief.
Yes, those are good points.
I'm going to play a poor schmuck who's going to fall for every trick in the book.
One day, one day.
On a celf a while ago in Tuluk she managed to convince a dirty southerner that was looking to kill someone that he could get a license legally through her for 500 sids--plus a finding fee. You can't get a license as a non-citizen.
... sucker.
And don't forget, said clan resided in the -poorest- part of the city proper.
You average PC in Tuluk works for either a Great Merchant House, A Noble House, or the Templarate.
So an every-day-joe human commoner is already lower in status than most PCs. An every-day-joe elf would be even lower.
If you find being picked on, teased, harassed, spat on, rebuked, etc. undesirable, I would highly suggest you not playing an elf of any kind on Zalanthas.
Is elf a racial option in SoI? Pretty sure elves are the good guys there.
Quote from: palomar on August 16, 2009, 07:44:46 AM
Quote from: Prodikus on August 16, 2009, 04:03:33 AM
I have nothing against elves. I mean, they're greedy, thieving, murderous, shiftless, clannish and dull-witted.... and elves in Tuluk lack the common sense and decency to live out in the brush, where I don't have to smell them... but everyone in the Ivory City is just one big, happy family, thanks to the candy and unicorn filled sunshine rained down by His Glorious Light.
I'm not sure what you're after but if it's the same old Tuluk bashing, take it somewhere else.
In my opinion, elves fit in very well in Tuluk society. They are "greedy, thieving, murderous, shiftless" in many cases, though I don't agree with dull-witted. As it happens, one can register (and the smart ones do) to be a legally operating thief and assassin in Tuluk, and it is considered an artform.
There is conflict in Tuluk. It usually happens below the surface (and I don't mean UnderTuluk only). Everyone in Tuluk knows that there is conflict, but they also see how organizations, races and various groups don't wage outright war against eachother. Subtlety isn't for every player and PC. It's worth giving a try, but if it isn't for you, there are many other options.
Sarcasm, in response to the original post. Anyone who thinks Tuluk is the land of sunshine and love (as the suggestion of differential treatment for elves in Tuluk would imply) is, as you say, dead wrong.
The subtle racism of sneers, nose lifting and whispers are the sort of thing PC Tuluki c-elves should be used to by now, as it's the sort of thing they've lived with all their lives. I also think a little less-than-subtle racism (spitting, shit throwing, some physical abuse, etc.) isn't entirely out of bounds, as not everyone in Tuluk is cultured and well mannered..
especially in the Warrens, where most city elves live. Of course, if Commoner Amos punched Shifty McElf in the nose last week, and the McElf tribe finds him all alone in a dark alley...
And calling them dull-witted was an example of racism, as was calling them lazy (that's what shiftless means.) They are all of course greedy, stinking, murderous thieves... that's just a statement of fact.
Quote from: FantasyWriter on August 16, 2009, 01:13:40 PM
And don't forget, said clan resided in the -poorest- part of the city proper.
You average PC in Tuluk works for either a Great Merchant House, A Noble House, or the Templarate.
So an every-day-joe human commoner is already lower in status than most PCs. An every-day-joe elf would be even lower.
If you find being picked on, teased, harassed, spat on, rebuked, etc. undesirable, I would highly suggest you not playing an elf of any kind on Zalanthas.
Is elf a racial option in SoI? Pretty sure elves are the good guys there.
Well, you can play a desert-elf of any kind. Chances are, nobody's going to tease or (verbally) harass you out in your backyard, and if they do, you wouldn't be able to understand what the hell they were saying, anyway. (Meanwhile, you'd be hanging around as much as possible in the hope of magickally branching sirihish.)
But yeah, city-elves are an utter waste of time unless you have the stomach for keeping to the 'rinth or UnderTuluk. Even then, you'd probably be better off all-around playing a human or dwarf.
There's no problem with distrusting and disliking elves. Though, I tend to notice that these things often get taken to the extreme by some players.
Sometimes I see players take it upon themselves to kick an elf out of a tavern just for sitting at the bar. Or even threaten to kill them if they see them again.
But as far as I can tell, they can get away with it becuase I still really don't know what place elves have in society. Are they integrated with the rest of Tuluki society or are the completely ghettoized? Are they even considered to be citizens by most folk in the city? Much of the interaction I see leads me to believe that elves are neither integrated nor considered citizens.
Personally, I don't think elves should be treated well. But I do think they should be treated better, U.T.'s, 'rinthers and any other non-citizens.
QuotePersonally, I don't think elves should be treated well. But I do think they should be treated better, U.T.'s, 'rinthers and any other non-citizens.
Agreed, but with the exception of GMH members or very wealthy merchants. Just because they'd have more clout and respect than your average commoner anyhow and would likely have strong ties in both city-states.
Quote from: Versu on August 16, 2009, 03:46:52 AM
Where does it say people in Tuluk are jerks to elves? Whats with the racism? Are you guys serious? Elves in Tuluk should receive the same basic respect as humans and rudeness should be treated as such.
Aren't Rinthi's and UT's the real scum? Elves aren't slaves, certainly not the lowest of the low.
I think if you're rude to an elf in Tuluk, you deserve the worst. In everyones eyes.
Heh.
Elves are shit. They will always be shit. Nothing will change that. People in Tuluk think elves are shit. People in Allanak think elves are shit. People in the wastes think elves are shit. Elves are shit.
This ain't LotR.
Rinthers and UTers are also shit, but potentially better shit than that commoner elf shit I know. Rinther and UTer elves should all be killed right this moment. Rinther and UTer elves are shit's shit.
It is unfortunate that certain posts in this thread drip with contempt for other players and their activities IC, but I guess it can't be avoided in smoothing out unpleasantness.
Elves are the second most populous race in the known world, perhaps this percentage doesn't carry over into cities but they're more common than dwarves and half giants inside city walls, for sake of argument. A big point here seems to be that Elves should be stealing willy nilly from anyone outside of their clans. Now an elf given to pickpocketing, and thus has learnt the way of a pickpocket from a family given to that sort of activity would definitely test themselves by stealing from non-tribe members.
This is not the only way in which elves test themselves (what non-elves would label as "stealing"), let's hit up a quote from the racial roleplay helpfile (http://www.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elven.html):
QuoteCon-artists of any sort are thieves. Muggers are thieves, albeit less subtle ones. Even traders are thieves - indeed, many elves consider trading to be just a sophisticated form of theft.
It's important not to get hung up on what a "thief" is and what the definition of "robbery" is. To elves, any activity tests their mettle against a non-tribe member and comes out on top in an underhanded way is considered "robbery" - the expert elven burglar doesn't steal from the warrens because there's no challenge there - she goes further afield in order to test herself fully. The elven merchant doesn't rest on their laurels, they are continuously challenging themselves by trying to worm the best deal from non-tribe members. After all, why do we call a shrewd businessman a "crook"?
The prescribed behaviour most people seem to subscribe to for an elf is to be constantly pickpocketing and burglarising everyone and anything and living in UT or the 'rinth. This isn't fun and will get nobody, let alone a race, anywhere. It isn't what the docs want either.
The crux of the argument comes down to the Akai Sjir (clan outline found here: http://www.armageddon.org/ic/), a tribe of city elves who pride themselves on their stonework (there's that magic word again, pride) and are described as "outspoken and social". Elves aren't stupid thieving machines and are just as able to control their desire to challenge themselves ("steal") as any human is able to control their curiosity - to an extent. So this tribe probably gets its rocks off (heh) to furthering their art and trade and get their prescription of elfing through bartering, trade and social poising - the famous Tuluki passtime.
Also a comment was made about the tribe's numbers - I believe full blooded family members are managed by e-mailing the clan address and are handled in the same way as human tribals re: ensuring balance in numbers. Something mentioned in the clan description is that they have been known to accept outsiders into the fold, meaning they are perhaps unusual compared to the hiring policies of other clans.
And just so I'm understood - I wholeheartedly support anger against elves IC, I support them having to work especially hard to get Tuluki respect (not just on the surface) and if someone is playing an elf they
expect to be treated that way. What I am posting here about is to prevent OOC prejudices building.
I also freely admit that there's an awkwardness with their sudden appearance that might lead people to believe they have no history and are new arrivals in His Ivory, something that is untrue IC, but requires a certain admission from the playerbase to allow integration.
A lot of words, sorry. Felt like ranting.
Quote from: Jingo on August 16, 2009, 02:01:24 PM
There's no problem with distrusting and disliking elves. Though, I tend to notice that these things often get taken to the extreme by some players.
Sometimes I see players take it upon themselves to kick an elf out of a tavern just for sitting at the bar. Or even threaten to kill them if they see them again.
What's your character's frame of reference for treating elves like shit? If your character is an "honest citizen," sure, avoid elves. But, I'd say a vast majority of the human and dwarven PCs in the game will rob, murder and betray anyone if it benefits them and they can get away with it. I've seen PCs knock frail old ladies down to loot their bosses corpse, walk off with anything of value that gets left alone for thirty seconds, and lie through both corners of their mouths to make a coin... and those are just the PCs that don't have the hide and steal skills.
Why, then, is it so terrible when elves do it? Dislike and distrust 'em all you want, it's great, but how is that elf different from the other people your character knows (and isn't trying to kick out of a tavern)? It seems like a pretty weak excuse to try and shoe-horn some conflict into the game, and mostly all it's done is made independent city elves an unplayable option.
I think for most human PCs, racism against elves should stem more from human insecurities and less because they're thieving bastards. Society in the two city-states is based on a notion of "the nobility is better than everyone else," and all the top social tiers are exclusively human. So, I think the mentality trickling down from that should be that elves are a lesser race because, all else being equal, the nobility and the law will side with humans over elves. Elves have historically worked for almost any clan that doesn't cater exclusively to nobility: Kurac, Salarr, the Byn, and various other groups, so the idea that they should be driven to the fringes of society is kind of silly.
I hope nobody thinks I'm judging anybody OOC for their IC play. That's not the point, nor is that what I'm doing.
But the prevailing attitude towards elves should be that they are shit. Point blank and simple. This doesn't mean that elves can't be dealt with, socialized with, or otherwise interacted with. But you are going to dicker price with an elf far more than a human, because YOU KNOW THEY ARE TRYING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. You are going to hire the human before the elf, because YOU KNOW THEY ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. You will check your locks twice when an elf lives next door to you, because you KNOW THEY WILL BREAK IN*. You might not double-check a report from your highest ranking human or dwarf, but you will double and triple check your elf's claims, because you KNOW THEY ARE PROBABLY LYING, TO SCREW YOU OVER*. You may really appreciate that human's friendship, but that elf's is going to be viewed as come and go at best, because you KNOW THAT ELVES WILL SCREW YOU OVER SOONER OR LATER*. When your sword goes missing, you are going to look at the nearest elf first, because you KNOW THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. When you come across that elf in the desert, whereas you might help the human in distress, you might go on and ride shy of the elf with the broken legs, because you KNOW THAT ELF IS GOING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. When you buy something from an elf, you will pay as little as you can, because it's got to be cheap; after all, ELVES WILL ALWAYS TRY TO SCREW YOU OVER*.
* View may not reflect reality. But it's an elf.
I think that trying to kick elves out of a common tavern isn't overly bright, and wouldn't be the prevailing choice of racism, in either city, but you color everything you do with, or for, or because of, or to an elf, with the view that they are untrustworthy. It should color your opinion as much as the fact that half-giants are dumb colors your interactions with them. Certain folks are free to think differently than this, because of RP and IC reasons, and that's fine. But when someone asks how elves should be commonly treated, the above examples of interaction are a good primer.
Last time I played a celf, he was very employable. He was a simple low skilled merchant, but he got plenty interaction. The difference? The difference is when cornered by a templar, my elf asked how my elf can be of service to him. And instead of asking for pretty color silks, or nice weapons, the templar went straight to business ... poisons, information, etc. My elf didnt commit a single crime in his life, but ... he was an elf. I find the elven stigma to be awesome. Treat elves the way you think best, if they're useful ... treat them in a way that would keep thme useful without making yourself a joke infront of others. If they're not, then fuck 'em, make fun of them in order to be liked by the others.
Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on August 16, 2009, 03:47:50 PM
I hope nobody thinks I'm judging anybody OOC for their IC play. That's not the point, nor is that what I'm doing.
But the prevailing attitude towards elves should be that they are shit. Point blank and simple. This doesn't mean that elves can't be dealt with, socialized with, or otherwise interacted with. But you are going to dicker price with an elf far more than a human, because YOU KNOW THEY ARE TRYING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. You are going to hire the human before the elf, because YOU KNOW THEY ARE GOING TO DO SOMETHING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. You will check your locks twice when an elf lives next door to you, because you KNOW THEY WILL BREAK IN*. You might not double-check a report from your highest ranking human or dwarf, but you will double and triple check your elf's claims, because you KNOW THEY ARE PROBABLY LYING, TO SCREW YOU OVER*. You may really appreciate that human's friendship, but that elf's is going to be viewed as come and go at best, because you KNOW THAT ELVES WILL SCREW YOU OVER SOONER OR LATER*. When your sword goes missing, you are going to look at the nearest elf first, because you KNOW THAT THEY ARE TRYING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. When you come across that elf in the desert, whereas you might help the human in distress, you might go on and ride shy of the elf with the broken legs, because you KNOW THAT ELF IS GOING TO SCREW YOU OVER*. When you buy something from an elf, you will pay as little as you can, because it's got to be cheap; after all, ELVES WILL ALWAYS TRY TO SCREW YOU OVER*.
* View may not reflect reality. But it's an elf.
I think that trying to kick elves out of a common tavern isn't overly bright, and wouldn't be the prevailing choice of racism, in either city, but you color everything you do with, or for, or because of, or to an elf, with the view that they are untrustworthy. It should color your opinion as much as the fact that half-giants are dumb colors your interactions with them. Certain folks are free to think differently than this, because of RP and IC reasons, and that's fine. But when someone asks how elves should be commonly treated, the above examples of interaction are a good primer.
This is exactly what city elf players should
love! It's the prevailing attitude among those who feel, nay, KNOW that if they let their guard down they'll be taken advantage of, and know they can't afford that loss. This might not be everyone however...
My ranting and raging isn't about people hating on elves, bring on the hate, give them something to struggle against and work amidst. My trouble is the background murmuring that elves are not viable and can never, ever, evereverever interact with anyone else outside of sneak n;peek man;steal coins man. That all elves should be limited in class, aspirations and activity around bog-standard pocket-filching.
Mercantile elves are
definitely out to rip you off (if you are non-tribe or non-trusted) if
you are considered a challenge to them. An elf isn't going to spam-wrangle everyone out of coins any more than they're going to steal from a blind person repeatedly - there's no pride in that, no challenge and thus little interest in it.
Elves are, at best, second-class citizens everywhere.
The difference in Tuluk is that even non-human Artisans can draw a measure of respect for their
work, while still being treated with nothing but contempt for their
race.
Quote"Oh, isn't this a delightfully embroidered cloak! Who is it by? Diavellis - that elven master tailor? Oh, well, yes of course. I certainly see the influence of his heritage in his choice of dyes... It's fine work, though, and I'm sure you did your best to obtain a human mastercraftsman."
Also, what constitutes 'art' can cover a rather wide range of activites.
well.. I don't think there's long lived elves in Tuluk - other than npcs.
Doesn't Artistry, relates how two-faced Tuluk is? Its happy fluffy rainbow town with a dark side.
Can't trust anyone in Zalanthas, Right? Not just Elves.
Maybe Meta-gamers gave Elves a bad name?
Isn't scowling at elves dangerous? More so in Tuluk? Wouldn't people want to be very polite?
They're seen as sissies?
Quote from: Versu on August 17, 2009, 12:49:52 AM
They're seen as sissies?
Hoo boy, go say that to a Sando.
Many people like to bring up "second most in population".
Big deal, that could easily mean (And I'm sure it does) That there are 2 million humans, 200,000 elves, 195,000 dwarves...etc etc. And what if 150k of the elves are desert leaving 50,000 to split between the cities and outposts?
If you look at the NPC populations in either main city, the number of elves is less then 20%. Elves are not, nor have they ever been a driving force in the cities.
Hell, even desert elves look down on them.
Quote from: X-D on August 17, 2009, 02:16:00 AM
Hell, even desert elves look down on them.
True dat.
There's a lot of half elf npcs around.. is all this hate for real or
is it a Tuluki West Side story ... Sharks vs Jets.. no Carru vs. Tembo?
Are all these half elves made from hate... or many secretly desire to be half-breed baby mommas?
Quote from: burble on August 17, 2009, 11:28:49 AM
Are all these half elves made from hate... or many secretly desire to be half-breed baby mommas?
Half-elves are usually accidents or the product of rape. This could factor in why they have such emotional problems, and have so little sense of self.
As for elves in Tuluk, I think one would be as wary of them as anywhere else in the world. The thing is, elves are usually pretty subtle thieving bastards, so where better to live? Huh?
Also, they have a better chance at making it in Tuluk because no matter what any of you Tuluki fan boy/girls say, it is a happy-fun-fun play zone for smurfs. Allanak's just harsher. Deal.
I like the idea of "accidents".... ooops I didn't mean to bump into you there on the street.
The problem with this whole thread is basing an entire culture on the simple premise that "elves are thieving bastards", seems a little superficial.
I'll have to go find some old Dark Sun books (threw them away a long long ago) but I'm sure they didn't just base their concept of elves on they look different and steal. Then again those were pretty bad books.
If all elves do is steal, then it's a sad world where humans haven't figured it out yet and still do business with them. Makes no sense to me.
The Mongols were able to come together and take over most of the civilized world and stealing was a big part of showing their prowess.
No one ever steals from me. :(
Some of us PCs DO walk around with coins in their inventory for easy pickiin'.
Quote from: Grey Area on August 17, 2009, 12:03:44 AM
"Oh, isn't this a delightfully embroidered cloak! Who is it by? Diavellis - that elven master tailor? Oh, well, yes of course. I certainly see the influence of his heritage in his choice of dyes... It's fine work, though, and I'm sure you did your best to obtain a human mastercraftsman."
This is absolutely a perfect example of the way most people would feel about elves, and the way that they would
express that feeling. Particularly in Tuluk, but even in Allanak, this sort of example is fine.
Quote from: Rhyden on August 17, 2009, 11:47:59 AM
Also, they have a better chance at making it in Tuluk because no matter what any of you Tuluki fan boy/girls say, it is a happy-fun-fun play zone for smurfs. Allanak's just harsher. Deal.
Oi, here we go again. ::)
Quote from: musashi on August 17, 2009, 04:27:42 PM
Quote from: Rhyden on August 17, 2009, 11:47:59 AM
Also, they have a better chance at making it in Tuluk because no matter what any of you Tuluki fan boy/girls say, it is a happy-fun-fun play zone for smurfs. Allanak's just harsher. Deal.
Oi, here we go again. ::)
All I'm saying, is I think the staff created Tuluk to put Allanak's grittiness in perspective with the rest of the world. I haven't actually played in Tuluk with a Tuluki for a very long time. So for what I know, there could be city elves running the entire place in studded, leather armor. My point? Tuluk will always be seen as 'soft' in this post-apocalyptic desert world. Why? Because it just is.
This being said from someone who started off in Tuluk, and still considers it his favorite city.
If you think Tuluk is a happy land of flowers and magical sunshines, take a hop skip and a jump there and try to be buddy buddy with the local templarate/nobility/military forces. Extra points for doing it as an elf or breed. In fact, take any action you think would land you a whooping in Allanak and try it on for size in Tuluk, then compare your results.
Warning: This poster makes no assurances as to the safety of your character while following the advice listed above.
I agree that city elves in Tuluki do have it better though, but I think that's just because their city "clan" isn't based in an area deemed hostile and dangerous to enter, better avoided at all costs. Like the clan of city elves in Allanak.
Not so much to do with the culture of the cities I think, just the location of the Tuluki city elf clan lends itself to more PC interaction.