Armageddon General Discussion Board

I see this has been mentioned in two other threads already. SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Go at it here!

I think they should hide the mdesc but all the articles of armor or clothing should still be visible. I don't know if people have suggested it completely masking you or what. But I find hiding the mdesc to be acceptable and realistic.

Hide the mdesc. Please, for kraths sake, hide the mdesc.

You can still see their height and weight, you can still assess-v to get an idea of their age. These things should be more than enough to represent that "I just knew it was so-and-so" feeling you get when watching someone you know with a helmet on or somesuch. The idea here is you don't KNOW for sure. You've got a feeling. Also, if that person wants to recognize having a limp, or a strange gait, or a certain set to their shoulders, then this is something that should be left for emote, hemote and semotes.

For, uh, retroactive context:

Quote from: Sav on June 28, 2012, 03:47:47 PM
On the one hand, I totally get this, because I've played on games where masks/hoods hid your mdesc and it's still a little weird to me that they don't on Arm. On the other hand, I've recognized friends plenty of times when they were wearing motorcycle helmets/masks/wigs/facing away from me/etc. Just because you have a Pikachu mask on doesn't mean that you don't still walk with that weird swing to your left leg, or that you aren't still 6'2" and stupidly visible, or that you aren't wearing the exact same outfit you were two hours ago.

The thing that bothers me about this is that there ARE mdesc covering masks in the game. They're super special rare items because of this, but there's no explanation whatsoever as to the difference in this sort of mask and the kind that aren't rare. It feel very unrealistic to me. Either get rid of them all for your OOC reasons of limiting them, or make them all realistic.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:06:04 PM
The thing that bothers me about this is that there ARE mdesc covering masks in the game.

citation needed

On one hand, people are often more recognizable by mannerisms, tone of voice, gait, stature, and other intangibles that cannot be represented in the game than mere physical characteristics. This makes mdesc recognition useful as you can decide whether or not you recognize someone (oocly via their mdesc, icly via other intangibles) or not. On the other, leaving mdescs always visible takes a lot of skullduggery out of the game.

Ultimately I don't think masks or facewraps should remove mdescs. Characters should be able to know whether or not they recognize someone and be trusted not to take elements of an mdesc they wouldn't otherwise be able to recognize. If you think someone has abused this, like said some thief was a man with a star-shaped scar on his face when the dude was wearing a facewrap, send in a player complaint.

My optimal solution would be for characters to have both regular mdescs and their concealed mdescs. The regular mdesc would be replaced by the concealed mdesc when the character wore a mask/facewrap + a cloak with a raised hood, and would only describe physical characteristics visible in that garb.

I think straight up mdesc removal is too unrealistic and abusable.

Quote from: Nyr on June 28, 2012, 04:08:38 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:06:04 PM
The thing that bothers me about this is that there ARE mdesc covering masks in the game.

citation needed

They got changed ages ago.

I have, and always will support making more common ways for people to hide their mdescs. The fact that you can see it, no matter the lengths taken by people trying not to be recognized, is abused -far- more than the opposite ever could be. (And many times, that abuse results in the person unrealistically being recognized and hunted/killed.) The excuses for being able to recognize someone who is covered up are far less likely to be the case than not being able to recognize them when their features are disguised.

Quote from: Yam on June 28, 2012, 04:09:10 PM

Quote from: Nyr on June 28, 2012, 04:08:38 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:06:04 PM
The thing that bothers me about this is that there ARE mdesc covering masks in the game.

citation needed

They got changed ages ago.

Personally saw it on a Kuraci(pretty sure) member about 3-4 months ago. Don't have logs though. It didn't make the mdesc go away so much as it replaced it with a description of the mask. The mask had the Kuraci(definitely some clan) insignia on it so it was clearly a clan item.

I've always thought that masks should block the mdesc.

You guys do have some valid points about the way people hold themselves, walk and talk, but all that can be faked or changed if effort is made to do so.

I would rather the masks actually act as masks, so that the player oocly doesn't instantly know who I am because they've talked to me every day for a week and have looked at me hundreds of times and remember that my mdesc has some unique word like drov or baobob.

It's really irritating when you buy your character a totally different set of gear/clothes, then throw on a mask or facewrap to have someone look at you as you walk in the bar and go, "Hey Amos! New clothes?"

Quote from: Morgenes link=http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,43769.msg692024.html#msg692024
To answer this question, we had masks that hid mdescs and we had a multitude of issues with people abusing their anonymous powers.

Not trying to be a smartass, but how do you abuse anonymity any more then how it works now.  If I walk my character into the other city where nobody knows me, I am anonymous until I remove my mask, nobody knows my sdesc, my name.  How does having no Mdesc give any MORE abuseable status then that?

Quote from: Cerelum on June 28, 2012, 04:19:16 PM

Quote from: Morgenes link=http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,43769.msg692024.html#msg692024
To answer this question, we had masks that hid mdescs and we had a multitude of issues with people abusing their anonymous powers.

Not trying to be a smartass, but how do you abuse anonymity any more then how it works now.  If I walk my character into the other city where nobody knows me, I am anonymous until I remove my mask, nobody knows my sdesc, my name.  How does having no Mdesc give any MORE abuseable status then that?

Or hide/sneak, for that matter. Hell that obscures EVERYTHING.

Masks used to cover the mdesc with a new one the way RoguesGunslinger described.

If I remember correctly, they were removed because of 'abuse' by the players.

People would pop on a mask go on a killing spree take off the mask and that was that.  

I, personally, feel that masks should alter the mdesc somehow (perhaps replacing every second or third word with gibberish) or there should be a chance of either seeing the mask's desc or the real desc of the player.

IE, the scary masked guy wearing a raindbow pony mask stands here.

>l pony

You see a rainbow pony desc.

>l pony

You see a rainbow pony desc.

>l pony

You see the real desc.

Basically, someone would have to spam look masked person to figure out who it is.  Why?  Because that's how it is in real life.  Is it fair?  I think it's a compromise (I have always been partial to simply allowing masks to cover up descriptions even if they cover up body descriptions) that would have them in the game.

Thing is, is there really a benefit to having mask items in the game?  Do they really add to the game?  If everyone winds up wearing masks all the time then what's the point?  I can see people carrying four or ten masks on them and switching them out as they walk along.  The biggest shift that I felt happened when masks were completely removed (they were so ridiculously hard to get in the first place that it didn't make a big difference) was a minor drop in pkilling.  That's -perception- on my part and, no, I have no hard facts or statistics to back it up.  This is all feeling from me.  

Anyway, while I think masks should conceal descs I'm okay with them not.  I don't think it's a major issue in any shape.  If you get close enough to kill someone and they look at you instead of running away or dying then you've done it wrong in the first place.  ;)


edit: clarity and added missing words.. masked words?

Not to mention that people have a hard enough time identifying (people they don't know) -without- any sort of disguise in real life. People are too easily able to identify disguised people in this game to the point it is being abused more than the opposite ever could and more detrimentally to the victim of the abuse than the opposite could ever be. I'd be fine with masks garbling every other word of the mdesc randomly or something so if you have time to keep checking them out you can get more of it piece by piece. But them covering up nothing at all, is totally lopsided to abuse the other way.

1.  No, there are no mdesc hiding objects out there for players to use.

2.  A recent (ish) thread that quotes older posts on this issue. (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,38577.msg526785.html#msg526785)

3.  Another post having a little to do with the matter of stealth skills. (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,42453.msg651306.html#msg651306)

*Sigh* I guess I'm just stuck on the opinion that people are more mature these days...

Quote from: A Large Bag on June 28, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
Not to mention that people have a hard enough time identifying (people they don't know) -without- any sort of disguise in real life. People are too easily able to identify disguised people in this game to the point it is being abused more than the opposite ever could and more detrimentally to the victim of the abuse than the opposite could ever be. I'd be fine with masks garbling every other word of the mdesc randomly or something so if you have time to keep checking them out you can get more of it piece by piece. But them covering up nothing at all, is totally lopsided to abuse the other way.

I dunno. With no unique identifier of gait (which is major), voice (which is even more major) and other characteristics that are hard/impossible to disguise, a visible descriptor of some sort is necessary. Otherwise you have the unrealistic situation of not recognizing some guy you've known for five years talking to you at the bar because he's wearing a slab of obsidian over his face.

Quote from: Yam on June 28, 2012, 04:32:35 PM

Quote from: A Large Bag on June 28, 2012, 04:25:24 PM
Not to mention that people have a hard enough time identifying (people they don't know) -without- any sort of disguise in real life. People are too easily able to identify disguised people in this game to the point it is being abused more than the opposite ever could and more detrimentally to the victim of the abuse than the opposite could ever be. I'd be fine with masks garbling every other word of the mdesc randomly or something so if you have time to keep checking them out you can get more of it piece by piece. But them covering up nothing at all, is totally lopsided to abuse the other way.

I dunno. With no unique identifier of gait (which is major), voice (which is even more major) and other characteristics that are hard/impossible to disguise, a visible descriptor of some sort is necessary. Otherwise you have the unrealistic situation of not recognizing some guy you've known for five years talking to you at the bar because he's wearing a slab of obsidian over his face.

That's where it should be up to the person you're playing with to roleplay correctly so you do recognize them. On a positive note: That sort of abuse isn't going to typically end with -your- pc being hunted or killed. Where currently, someone abusing the fact they can see the whole main desc typically results in the victim of the abuse being killed, hunted, or some detrimental thing happening to them because of it.

Quote from: Cerelum on June 28, 2012, 04:19:16 PM

Quote from: Morgenes link=http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,43769.msg692024.html#msg692024
To answer this question, we had masks that hid mdescs and we had a multitude of issues with people abusing their anonymous powers.

Not trying to be a smartass, but how do you abuse anonymity any more then how it works now.  If I walk my character into the other city where nobody knows me, I am anonymous until I remove my mask, nobody knows my sdesc, my name.  How does having no Mdesc give any MORE abuseable status then that?

The difference is an mdesc makes someone somewhat identifiable as opposed to having no identifiable information at all (other than what's available from assess).  If you're missing a leg, or a hand or maybe you are a hunchback or you have broad shoulders or a huge chest, or abnormally long limbs, or some other body feature that isn't covered up, it's going to be hidden with an mdesc hiding mask.

Don't get me wrong, love the idea of being able to cover up to try to avoid identification.  The problem is the code just doesn't do it realistically, with mdesc hiding masks and without.   Though I think it'd be extremely cool to have different levels of description information, like sex, eyes, face, head, body, etc that'd allow someone to incrementally conceal different parts of their description depending on which method or combination of methods (masks, hoods, cloaks, bandages, veils, bananas, dusters, etc) they used.  Maybe someday the code might work this way.  One can hope.

I guess I'll just keep on being that "somone who's voice strangely comes from somewhere" for all my clandestine encounters.

Thanks for ruining my Batman concept guys.

Since this is code discussion, I'll put out the idea that certain objects (masks, certain cloaks, hood items) could be flagged to allow an 'hdesc,' a settable feature that can be used in place of the real mdesc.  Like tdesc, it can be altered to taste with the particular item, and if abused, karma can be docked, et cetera.

The problem with masks hiding mdescs, however, is that you're asking your newly anonymous PC to be a floating, masked head.  Jarring, and simply stupid.  Without some sort of replacement desc, it would be just as bad as the roleplay you claim to be so egregious.  Which I've yet to see, btw.  In fact, I've seen a good deal of roleplay done to ignore that gem your tdesc is covering, or ignoring a friend who is wearing a mask, and similar situations.

Quote from: Kismetic on June 28, 2012, 04:39:13 PM
Since this is code discussion, I'll put out the idea that certain objects (masks, certain cloaks, hood items) could be flagged to allow an 'hdesc,' a settable feature that can be used in place of the real mdesc.  Like tdesc, it can be altered to taste with the particular item, and if abused, karma can be docked, et cetera.

The problem with masks hiding mdescs, however, is that you're asking your newly anonymous PC to be a floating, masked head.  Jarring, and simply stupid.  Without some sort of replacement desc, it would be just as bad as the roleplay you claim to be so egregious.  Which I've yet to see, btw.  In fact, I've seen a good deal of roleplay done to ignore that gem your tdesc is covering, or ignoring a friend who is wearing a mask, and similar situations.

You still see height, weight, age, sex and racial differences.... Hardly a "floating head".

Quote from: MorgenesTo answer this question, we had masks that hid mdescs and we had a multitude of issues with people abusing their anonymous powers.

So staff do not trust players with mdesc-hiding objects, but trust players enough to rp accordingly with masks and mdescs visible. Interesting.

Personally, I think masks should hide mdescs. Would be neat if you could at least see the masked person's eye color or something.

And ultimately, staff should put a little bit more trust in players. I think we as a playerbase have matured. So if one masked person does go on a killing spree, dock karma or write them a negative account note. There's no reason the whole playerbase should have to suffer because of immature players from the past.

I mean this more in a wouldn't-this-be-neat-way than a CODERS, ASSEMBLE way, but it'd be interesting to have this based on perception skill. Yam's right that with mask code as it currently stands we're basically self-policing ourselves in terms of whether our characters would realistically recognize someone who was concealed, and while I think in general Arm players are pretty good about these things, I get that there's a potential for abuse.

I have acquaintances who literally will not recognize me if I'm wearing contact lenses when they usually see me in glasses. These are the people who would be unquestionably fooled by the Superman/Clark Kent thing if they worked at the Daily Planet, and I have no explanation for this, but whatever, they exist, I know them, and I confuse them when I when I say hello to them on days when I don't look how they expected me to.

I have other acquaintances who have recognized me from across the street, in a clothing style they'd never seen me in before, with a hood up, at night, facing away from them, in a part of the city they had no reason to expect me to be in. This happens less often, but these are the kind of people I would absolutely expect to recognize Amos regardless of whatever stupid shit he was wearing on his head. They also usually give me a heart attack.

If you stuck two guys with the same build in motorcycle helmets in front of me, even if they weren't moving, I would still be able to tell you which one was my brother. (I know this from experience.) If you stuck my ex in a crowd full of people wearing costumes, I would still do a double take and freak out a little because oh my god I know those shoulders and that gait and the way they balance. (I know this from experience, too.) On the other hand, if you put me in a hat, apparently half the people I work with would have no idea who I am because they prioritized perception last.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:38:46 PM
I guess I'll just keep on being that "somone who's voice strangely comes from somewhere" for all my clandestine encounters.

Thanks for ruining my Batman concept guys.

Dumping a load of dubious-looking ingredients into a pot and stirring methodically, the buxom, brown-haired maidservant asks, in southern-accented sirihish:
    "Well, we're short on bread like the rest of the city, but lucky for you, we'll always have stew. Or there's desert rations. What do you want for breakfast?"

From somewhere, Someone says, in southern-accented sirihish:
"JUSTICE."

Someone subdues the buxom, brown-haired maidservant despite her struggles to get away.

I trust people to recognize or not recognize someone with an mdesc than I trust people to realistically betray who they are while wearing an anonymizing mask doing bad stuff.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:12:24 PM

Quote from: Yam on June 28, 2012, 04:09:10 PM

Quote from: Nyr on June 28, 2012, 04:08:38 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:06:04 PM
The thing that bothers me about this is that there ARE mdesc covering masks in the game.

citation needed

They got changed ages ago.

Personally saw it on a Kuraci(pretty sure) member about 3-4 months ago. Don't have logs though. It didn't make the mdesc go away so much as it replaced it with a description of the mask. The mask had the Kuraci(definitely some clan) insignia on it so it was clearly a clan item.

I have definitely seen this too.

Quote from: Yam on June 28, 2012, 04:47:45 PM
I trust people to recognize or not recognize someone with an mdesc than I trust people to realistically betray who they are while wearing an anonymizing mask doing bad stuff.

Sure but this assumes a masked person is doing bad things around people who know them well. Something I'd think happens a lot less often than a masked person doing bad things around people who doesn't know them well.


But now I can see where particular abuse could come in. For people wanting to specifically hide who they are from people who know them well. I think people like this should be slapped down if they aren't offering clues and hints to who they are in a realistic fashion.

Quote from: Yam on June 28, 2012, 04:47:45 PM
I trust people to recognize or not recognize someone with an mdesc than I trust people to realistically betray who they are while wearing an anonymizing mask doing bad stuff.

I don't. I used to. I've lost nearly every character that I've tried not to be recognized with due to someone using my main desc to identify me perfectly. I've also seen it happen to others as well even though I was trying to rp not knowing for sure or at all if they were the same person and others insisting upon recognizing them perfectly. Pretty much every case resulted in death or that character's life being otherwise destroyed.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:50:29 PM
But now I can see where particular abuse could come in. For people wanting to specifically hide who they are from people who know them well. I think people like this should be slapped down if they aren't offering clues and hints to who they are in a realistic fashion.

Agreed.

We have very different experiences then.

And if you really think it was the case of people unrealistically using your mdesc to hunt you down, file a player complaint. That's what they are there for.

Quote from: Case on June 28, 2012, 04:48:05 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:12:24 PM

Quote from: Yam on June 28, 2012, 04:09:10 PM

Quote from: Nyr on June 28, 2012, 04:08:38 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:06:04 PM
The thing that bothers me about this is that there ARE mdesc covering masks in the game.

citation needed

They got changed ages ago.

Personally saw it on a Kuraci(pretty sure) member about 3-4 months ago. Don't have logs though. It didn't make the mdesc go away so much as it replaced it with a description of the mask. The mask had the Kuraci(definitely some clan) insignia on it so it was clearly a clan item.

I have definitely seen this too.

(http://i.imgur.com/x985xl.jpg)

Okay, I'll bite.  Please put in a request with the sdesc of the offending item.  I'll track it down.

A solution:

Wear your hood up. When you meet someone, say, "If I catch you looking at me, I am going to cut your throat out."

If they look at you, kill them.

Quote from: A Large Bag on June 28, 2012, 04:52:42 PM

Quote from: Yam on June 28, 2012, 04:47:45 PM
I trust people to recognize or not recognize someone with an mdesc than I trust people to realistically betray who they are while wearing an anonymizing mask doing bad stuff.

I don't. I used to. I've lost nearly every character that I've tried not to be recognized with due to someone using my main desc to identify me perfectly. I've also seen it happen to others as well even though I was trying to rp not knowing for sure or at all if they were the same person and others insisting upon recognizing them perfectly. Pretty much every case resulted in death or that character's life being otherwise destroyed.

Pretty much how I've seen it happen every time. Though sometimes it's done somewhat realistically "Oh, I recognize the scuff in his boots! This is definitely him."

Quote from: Nyr on June 28, 2012, 04:55:04 PM

Quote from: Case on June 28, 2012, 04:48:05 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:12:24 PM

Quote from: Yam on June 28, 2012, 04:09:10 PM

Quote from: Nyr on June 28, 2012, 04:08:38 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:06:04 PM
The thing that bothers me about this is that there ARE mdesc covering masks in the game.

citation needed

They got changed ages ago.

Personally saw it on a Kuraci(pretty sure) member about 3-4 months ago. Don't have logs though. It didn't make the mdesc go away so much as it replaced it with a description of the mask. The mask had the Kuraci(definitely some clan) insignia on it so it was clearly a clan item.

I have definitely seen this too.

(http://i.imgur.com/x985xl.jpg)

Okay, I'll bite.  Please put in a request with the sdesc of the offending item.  I'll track it down.

I'm not sure the sdesc. Anything I can offer would be incredibly vague. Possibly a red-eyed falcon? That's whats popping into my head. I only got a brief look once and it was a while ago. I can tell you for sure that the item is certainly a clan item. And am almost positive it's Kuraci. Is this level of vagueness worthy of putting in a request? Under what should I file it?

Quote from: Samoa on June 28, 2012, 05:00:26 PM
A solution:

Wear your hood up. When you meet someone, say, "If I catch you looking at me, I am going to cut your throat out."

If they look at you, kill them.

There are much better ways currently in game that don't rely on the other person. None of which feel realistic while doing them. And sometimes you don't want to kill off all your targets. Sometimes you just need them to not know who you are.

Quote from: Samoa on June 28, 2012, 05:00:26 PM
A solution:

Wear your hood up. When you meet someone, say, "If I catch you looking at me, I am going to give you the time of your life."

If they look at you, mudsex them.

I think this is more appropriate to IC conflict, since player death is not something we're aiming for in this MUD.

Quote from: Samoa on June 28, 2012, 05:00:26 PM
A solution:

Wear your hood up. When you meet someone, say, "If I catch you looking at me, I am going to cut your throat out."

If they look at you, kill them.

Problem:

'if you look at me i will kill you

vs

l figure

is 34 characters vs 8 characters, so you'd have to be able to type at least 4x faster than your victim in order for you to get that out before they looked at you, or you'd have to have it macroed.  Also, difficulty is actually being able to kill the target under the circumstances, which is usually rather difficult once you've already made your presence known.

Quote from: Nyr on June 28, 2012, 04:55:04 PM

Quote from: Case on June 28, 2012, 04:48:05 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:12:24 PM

Quote from: Yam on June 28, 2012, 04:09:10 PM

Quote from: Nyr on June 28, 2012, 04:08:38 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:06:04 PM
The thing that bothers me about this is that there ARE mdesc covering masks in the game.

citation needed

They got changed ages ago.

Personally saw it on a Kuraci(pretty sure) member about 3-4 months ago. Don't have logs though. It didn't make the mdesc go away so much as it replaced it with a description of the mask. The mask had the Kuraci(definitely some clan) insignia on it so it was clearly a clan item.

I have definitely seen this too.

(http://i.imgur.com/x985xl.jpg)

Okay, I'll bite.  Please put in a request with the sdesc of the offending item.  I'll track it down.

Sent.

I know there was at least one mdesc covering item, a hat. My character had it but never used it, and after some communication with staff, it got changed into a regular sdesc-hiding item. About that time, a character I interacted with developed a sudden interest in hats, and very much wanted to buy my fancy hat.

I gave it to them for a reasonably cheap sum, and they seemed to think I was crazy.

I still wish I could have seen their face when they put it on and typed in >l me.

BASKET HAT

I love how I just caused for more mdesc covering items to be removed. Working against what my end goal was. Such is life.

Quote from: Is Friday on June 28, 2012, 05:03:04 PM

Quote from: Samoa on June 28, 2012, 05:00:26 PM
A solution:

Wear your hood up. When you meet someone, say, "If I catch you looking at me, I am going to give you the time of your life."

If they look at you, mudsex them.

I think this is more appropriate to IC conflict, since player death by PCs is not something we're aiming for in this MUD.

Fixed that.  Because I can't even tell you how many characters I've lost to wildlife.  I can still count on my hands how many I've lost to PCs

Probably the most annoying thing about mdesc hiding equipment is, and you can see this in the covetous way we refer to the items of yore, that we would all be fucking wearing them all the time non stop and the 'rinth would be more ridiculous than a Victorian masked ball.

Quote from: Yam on June 28, 2012, 05:17:30 PM
Probably the most annoying thing about mdesc hiding equipment is, and you can see this in the covetous way we refer to the items of yore, that we would all be fucking wearing them all the time non stop and the 'rinth would be more ridiculous than a Victorian masked ball.

lol, QFT.

Make the masks quasi-magickal and if they don't remove them within a reasonable amount of time, their face gets stuck that way.

Imagine trying to get a job at a house.

WAY: Hi I was interested in your hunter position.

WAY RECEIVED: Excellent, meet me at the bar.

The amethyst-eyed falcon masked man walks in and up to the bar.
"Hi I'm here for the job interview."
The normal employer says, "Okay, start by taking that mask off."
masked man says, "I can't, it's stuck."
employer, "Thanks for your time, good luck!"

Quote from: Cerelum on June 28, 2012, 05:25:19 PM
Make the masks quasi-magickal and if they don't remove them within a reasonable amount of time, their face gets stuck that way.

I actually support this idea 100%

Quote from: Case on June 28, 2012, 05:07:36 PM

Quote from: Nyr on June 28, 2012, 04:55:04 PM
Okay, I'll bite.  Please put in a request with the sdesc of the offending item.  I'll track it down.

Sent.

It doesn't actually do what you say it does.  Either it has been changed since then (rightfully so--or at least I'd hope so) or there must have been some kind of bug. 

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 05:02:32 PM
I'm not sure the sdesc. Anything I can offer would be incredibly vague. Possibly a red-eyed falcon? That's whats popping into my head. I only got a brief look once and it was a while ago. I can tell you for sure that the item is certainly a clan item. And am almost positive it's Kuraci. Is this level of vagueness worthy of putting in a request?

Probably not.  :(

Beneath the blurb concerning the person's condition, add a blurb noting that the person is masked. This puts the onus on the victim to rp correctly. I know there are lots of times I don't notice a person has a facewrap or mask on.

If there was code to recognize that someone is masked, it could be paired with code to support a disguise-type skill that would hide someone's mdesc.  It could branch off of something that takes a while to get up there.  Would make it so that 0-day nubz aren't running around abusing an easily accessible item, so that an ability to disguise their way of walking/holding themselves/etc could be accounted for, and so that a limited quantity of people would have it so that it would be easier to watch for abuse.

But I'm sure something like that is probably already around the GDB somewhere (found one!) (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,16995.msg178315/topicseen.html#msg178315) so I'm not going to develop it too much personally.

Quote from: valeria on June 28, 2012, 05:52:25 PM
If there was code to recognize that someone is masked, it could be paired with code to support a disguise-type skill that would hide someone's mdesc.  It could branch off of something that takes a while to get up there.  Would make it so that 0-day nubz aren't running around abusing an easily accessible item, so that an ability to disguise their way of walking/holding themselves/etc could be accounted for, and so that a limited quantity of people would have it so that it would be easier to watch for abuse.

But I'm sure something like that is probably already around the GDB somewhere (found one!) (http://www.zalanthas.org/gdb/index.php/topic,16995.msg178315/topicseen.html#msg178315) so I'm not going to develop it too much personally.

give a way for law enforcement to actually do their job if you are gonna give criminals the ultimate power of not being catchable unless their victim beats their ass

The law doesn't have to work 100% of the time. Not every criminal needs to be punished.

Boy I must be playing it wrong, half the time I don;t read descriptions, expecially if there are hoods and face wraps involved. But i do look at peoples equipment list.

Then when in a bar and someone is sitting there hood down , face wrap down and I glance over them I start with any distinguishing gear. Same with looking at shadows (hiding folk) .

Quote from: Potaje on June 28, 2012, 06:33:54 PM
Boy I must be playing it wrong, half the time I don;t read descriptions, expecially if there are hoods and face wraps involved. But i do look at peoples equipment list.

Then when in a bar and someone is sitting there hood down , face wrap down and I glance over them I start with any distinguishing gear. Same with looking at shadows (hiding folk) .

Same here. I don't even know what the hell my own PC's mdescs are.

Quote from: Potaje on June 28, 2012, 06:33:54 PM
Boy I must be playing it wrong, half the time I don;t read descriptions, expecially if there are hoods and face wraps involved. But i do look at peoples equipment list.

Then when in a bar and someone is sitting there hood down , face wrap down and I glance over them I start with any distinguishing gear. Same with looking at shadows (hiding folk) .

Ditto. I do it to preserve the flavor that coded mdesc hiders would allow for.  ;)

Quote from: Potaje on June 28, 2012, 06:33:54 PM
Boy I must be playing it wrong, half the time I don;t read descriptions, expecially if there are hoods and face wraps involved. But i do look at peoples equipment list.

Then when in a bar and someone is sitting there hood down , face wrap down and I glance over them I start with any distinguishing gear. Same with looking at shadows (hiding folk) .

This is how I play too. Aside from the sdesc, I know people by their equipment (even if they're not wearing a mask) far better than I know them by their mdescs. Blame me being too lazy to scroll up on the original tiny Flash client screen. And it just makes more sense to me to recognize someone by the cord-long obsidian-studded codpiece they always wear than the fact that, according to their mdesc, they're covered in dick tattoos (especially when I've never seen them outside of full clothing). When I deal with people who are wearing masks and veils and whatnot, I do make an effort not to read their mdesc and guess what their sdesc might be. I try to skim through to see if they got any really noticeable physical traits ("there is a third arm growing out of their chest") but generally I stick to equipment.

For a few months now I've been thinking of a way how to give masks et all a coded ability to obscure one's mdesc. Blocking it out entirely is too much. A temporary "masked" desc like some have said is a better start. My own idea was to have your mdesc coded into different categories: face, body type, etc, with things like your face or body scarring being blotted out by certain clothing, but your mdesc would retain that you have a hunchback or something. Way too complicated to hope for, though.

To compensate for all this I just PK mask-wearers on reflex.

Quote from: Potaje on June 28, 2012, 06:33:54 PM
Boy I must be playing it wrong, half the time I don;t read descriptions, expecially if there are hoods and face wraps involved. But i do look at peoples equipment list.

Then when in a bar and someone is sitting there hood down , face wrap down and I glance over them I start with any distinguishing gear. Same with looking at shadows (hiding folk) .

What? I make sure to read the entire mdesc each time I see someone, so that when a Templar asks me what that person looks like, I can just copy/paste them the entire description word for word.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:00:19 PM
Hide the mdesc. Please, for kraths sake, hide the mdesc.

You can still see their height and weight, you can still assess-v to get an idea of their age. These things should be more than enough to represent that "I just knew it was so-and-so" feeling you get when watching someone you know with a helmet on or somesuch. The idea here is you don't KNOW for sure. You've got a feeling. Also, if that person wants to recognize having a limp, or a strange gait, or a certain set to their shoulders, then this is something that should be left for emote, hemote and semotes.

And in response to Morgenes reply in ATS...You should get power from being anonymous...And you should be able to abuse that! But there would be downsides...like drawing attention to yourself walking around the city.

Please make this so.

Personally I don't actually read peoples full mdescs most of the time, but I bet a lot of folks do. And copy/paste it too.

Quote from: Is Friday on June 28, 2012, 05:03:04 PM

Quote from: Samoa on June 28, 2012, 05:00:26 PM
A solution:

Wear your hood up. When you meet someone, say, "If I catch you looking at me, I am going to give you the time of your life."

If they look at you, mudsex them.

I think this is more appropriate to IC conflict, since player death is not something we're aiming for in this MUD.

This.

The GDB is conclusive proof that people are far more afraid of commiting the vile act of mudsex than getting their characters killed, anyway.

Maybe have a mask randomly delete x number of sentences from your main desc, per look? Then no one look would give you the details, but it'd give you some.

I never had a problem with the way Harshlands made masks and hoods work. Hid your mdesc and sdesc, except there was a "study" command one could use, it echo'd that people were staring at you, and after a delay it displayed your sdesc and mdesc to them.

if you really wanted to do it, and make it semi fair I think the best way would be to change how setting up your mdesc works. Have a couple different fields for say, face, body, and whatever else. That way when you wear a mask it can automatically cover anything in the face field. This wouldn't hide all information but just the section the immortals wanted. But you would have to add in some more stuff like descriptions for how you move and stuff for the crowd that believes you would recognize someone just from their actions. Still think it would be completely broken from a law enforcement stand point though.

edit: Had more ideas come to me

you could take it a step further and make body equipment like a cloak, tabard, armor w/e cover over body slots
this would allow you to have a desc that shows what the user would see when you are wearing clothing or if you are wearing something bulky and covering it would completely hide your body description besides the "he looks larger then you and heavier then you" aspect

It could also allow for a "naked" description to be added that shows off all your hidden scars and tattoos and such when you are doing the dirty. Bonus points you can describe how big your virtual dong is to look good for the ladies.

I'd really like to rob/mug someone without having to kill them for fear of them spitting out my every distinguishing bit of my mdesc to the first lawman they saw.

I mean, sure. It's possible to make yourself unrecognizable. But it's ofttimes a bitch to track down [redacted]. Even harder still is when you don't have [redacted].

I don't think the problem is masks/facewraps I think it is player accountability for their recognizing skills.  If it is not established that you shouldn't immediately recognized and know every detail about someone's mdesc or sdesc from one quick <look person> when they tried to steal your coins or attacked someone then it should be established.

I have read some good forum posts in some of the military styled clans in Arm about looking at people and avoiding the instant recognition.  When reporting people to not say their sdesc exactly.  "It was definitely a TALL, MUSCULAR, MAN and he had two small scars on his right wrist that at the time was covered by bracers but his mdesc says it so he does."

This is the type of thing that needs to be avoided and I think its up to the players to censor themselves from reading an mdesc, having a log of it, and having their characters instantly know every detail about that mdesc.  When you're stolen from or attacked its very easy to get upset OOCly I think for a lot of people and the want to catch the criminal is a strong one.  Everyone needs to take a step back and play realistically though, like always.

When I interact with someone once I try to remember an obvious detail about them ICly.  If they're bald, for instance.  "I remember him... he was big and bald."  Thats it.  If I interact with them more times I remember more details.  If I speak with them all the time I start remembering the smaller details.  "Oh, Amos?  He's tall... kind of stocky, muscular and he's bald with a big scar across his face and he likes using clubs, two of them.  I think he wears this ribbon in his hair, too."  Also, just because you have a log of it or can scroll back in your client doesn't mean your character has perfect memory.  Try to make mistakes every now and then when recalling something just like in real life.  Take a look at someone for a few seconds and then one hour later try to recall details on their face.  The details fade away and you're left with the obvious or muddy versions of their details.  Do this in-game as well.

Also, if you're reading an MDESC and it says something specifically identifying please look down at what the person is wearing as well.  If they're in a hooded ABA with a bunch of armor on you're not likely to see that tattoo that is across their back in their mdesc.  So, unless you've kanked them a few times then try to filter that information out and don't use it for every day descriptions.

I guess the summary of this post is be the change.  Coded mdesc hiding items or not we should all be playing more realistically when it comes to our observation skills and being able to immediately identify anyone and everyone we've seen only once.

Quote from: musashi on June 29, 2012, 05:05:20 AM
I never had a problem with the way Harshlands made masks and hoods work. Hid your mdesc and sdesc, except there was a "study" command one could use, it echo'd that people were staring at you, and after a delay it displayed your sdesc and mdesc to them.

You know, this could even solve the "problem" (perceived or otherwise) with the look command.

Looking at someone would not return an echo - but if someone was wearing a mask or facewrap, it also wouldn't show their mdesc - only their eq list.

If you wanted to see their full desc, you'd have to use study, which would always return an echo.

AND....

make it so that both look and study can have emotes appended to them.

AND..

if you appended look, it -would- return the echo.

Quote from: musashi on June 29, 2012, 05:05:20 AM
I never had a problem with the way Harshlands made masks and hoods work. Hid your mdesc and sdesc, except there was a "study" command one could use, it echo'd that people were staring at you, and after a delay it displayed your sdesc and mdesc to them.

This sounds pretty awesome.

Or Kismetic's brilliant idea of a tdesc type of temporary desc that describes whatever is still visible with the mask on.

Witnesses are notoriously REALLY bad at remembering details. It would be nice if this was more represented in peoples roleplay.

I think it's almost too much to expect of some players, you know? The urge to 'win' is usually too strong. I'd rather see a level of anonymity possible within the code of the game.

Quote from: musashi on June 29, 2012, 05:05:20 AM
I never had a problem with the way Harshlands made masks and hoods work. Hid your mdesc and sdesc, except there was a "study" command one could use, it echo'd that people were staring at you, and after a delay it displayed your sdesc and mdesc to them.

I'd like it if it worked this way. In addition, like another said, make look an hemote unless an emote is tagged onto it and make "study" echo all the time with a delay that can be interrupted by combat, etc.
I would totally prefer this over the way it is currently. Bring back masks and hoods that hide your main desc, make them commonplace and not some "special unrealistically rare" items. Then add this study command.

Quote from: Maso on June 29, 2012, 10:12:43 AM
I think it's almost too much to expect of some players, you know? The urge to 'win' is usually too strong. I'd rather see a level of anonymity possible within the code of the game.

Why have such an unbreakable anonymity (with or without hide/sneak, magickal hiding), unless from some urge to 'win'?  What intense roleplaying purpose does complete anonymity serve?  I would think that is isolating, if anything.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 29, 2012, 09:56:18 AM
Witnesses are notoriously REALLY bad at remembering details. It would be nice if this was more represented in peoples roleplay.

Must be a Nakki thing.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 29, 2012, 09:56:18 AM
Witnesses are notoriously REALLY bad at remembering details. It would be nice if this was more represented in peoples roleplay.

My character in the AOD, I think, sometimes annoyed his Templar bosses by being vague on details. I just felt it was boring to always catch the criminals right away. Of course, I also noticed in my time in the AOD that some people played criminals who never dropped their "tough guy" attitude. This generally resulted in them being severely dealt with when caught.

In Allanak, I always felt like the 'rinthis should acknowledge they are out of their element when they are in the city proper, just as any AOD soldier going into the rinth would be (half crazy) extremely cautious.

tldr: Soldiers and authorities would have more fun by letting criminals stay on the streets. Criminals, in turn, should recognize some limits, both in their attitudes and in their actions if they don't want to get severely dealt with when caught.

Related to that is: Just like how cops in RL get adrenaline pumping and sometimes overreact to a surrendering suspect after a long chase, authorities in Zalanthas are probably going to deal with you MUUUUCH more harshly if you do everything in your power to escape them constantly. I saw WAY too many people just get killed because they didn't know when to stop trying to get away.

Quote from: racurtne on June 29, 2012, 12:42:45 PM
My character in the AOD, I think, sometimes annoyed his Templar bosses by being vague on details.

I honestly see this far more than the alternative.  Like, 10:1

Quote from: Kismetic on June 29, 2012, 12:45:38 PM

Quote from: racurtne on June 29, 2012, 12:42:45 PM
My character in the AOD, I think, sometimes annoyed his Templar bosses by being vague on details.

I honestly see this far more than the alternative.  Like, 10:1

Which part of that? The being annoyed or the vague reporting?

EDIT: Because I can say that it never caused any friction between my character and the Templar, or me and the other player. If any players actually disagreed with my stance, they handled it very well, and I was never disappointed with how it was handled IC by them.

'Realism' isn't exactly on the other side of the coin as well.  Remember those threads about apartments being cleaned out, furniture and all?  Pickpockets swiping everyone dry in a bar?  Heck, I even remember a situation where about 10 people were in a closed room, some with the skill to find hidden people, all looking for 1 person acting suspicious or different then the known people there.  Its cool, stealth made him a invisible god ninja and he spam fled as soon as there was a way out.

Its not one point of the crim code, or hiding desc system, or stealth that would need tweaked.  Lots of things out of whack.

Quote from: racurtne on June 29, 2012, 12:49:09 PM

Quote from: Kismetic on June 29, 2012, 12:45:38 PM

Quote from: racurtne on June 29, 2012, 12:42:45 PM
My character in the AOD, I think, sometimes annoyed his Templar bosses by being vague on details.

I honestly see this far more than the alternative.  Like, 10:1

Which part of that? The being annoyed or the vague reporting?

EDIT: Because I can say that it never caused any friction between my character and the Templar, or me and the other player. If any players actually disagreed with my stance, they handled it very well, and I was never disappointed with how it was handled IC by them.

People being vague, and intentionally forgetting or not noticing things.  It frustrates me, too, but I handle it well.  :P

Just be careful assuming, if you do.  A Templar character can be annoyed, but the player may appreciate your roleplay.

Quote from: Feco on June 29, 2012, 01:53:30 PM
Just be careful assuming, if you do.  A Templar character can be annoyed, but the player may appreciate your roleplay.

I believe I mentioned that.  ;) Well, not precisely that, but that was my point, yes. I said "if" they had a problem OOC, I couldn't tell. I assumed IC is always IC, as I expect everyone else to do.

Quote from: Feco on June 29, 2012, 01:53:30 PM
Just be careful assuming, if you do.  A Templar character can be annoyed, but the player may appreciate your roleplay.

I don't think anyone is going to shame you for roleplaying the right way.  And as I said, I see this a great deal more often than the head to asscrack to toe descriptions that are being alluded, here.  Frankly, this is either a problem in a specific locale, or vastly blown up because a handful of PCs over the last year or so got a raw deal.

Quote from: Nyr on June 28, 2012, 04:55:04 PM

Quote from: Case on June 28, 2012, 04:48:05 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:12:24 PM

Quote from: Yam on June 28, 2012, 04:09:10 PM

Quote from: Nyr on June 28, 2012, 04:08:38 PM

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on June 28, 2012, 04:06:04 PM
The thing that bothers me about this is that there ARE mdesc covering masks in the game.

citation needed

They got changed ages ago.

Personally saw it on a Kuraci(pretty sure) member about 3-4 months ago. Don't have logs though. It didn't make the mdesc go away so much as it replaced it with a description of the mask. The mask had the Kuraci(definitely some clan) insignia on it so it was clearly a clan item.

I have definitely seen this too.

(http://i.imgur.com/x985xl.jpg)

Okay, I'll bite.  Please put in a request with the sdesc of the offending item.  I'll track it down.

You are correct, there was a Kuraci mask that had slipped through the cracks, but this was spotted earlier in the year
and fixed.

Quote from: titansfan on June 28, 2012, 03:55:39 PM
I think they should hide the mdesc but all the articles of armor or clothing should still be visible. I don't know if people have suggested it completely masking you or what. But I find hiding the mdesc to be acceptable and realistic.

I had an idea for a compromised solution, not sure if anyone has suggested this before so sorry if I'm repeating an already suggested idea...  :-[

Quote from: Yam on June 28, 2012, 04:08:54 PM
My optimal solution would be for characters to have both regular mdescs and their concealed mdescs. The regular mdesc would be replaced by the concealed mdesc when the character wore a mask/facewrap + a cloak with a raised hood, and would only describe physical characteristics visible in that garb.

I think straight up mdesc removal is too unrealistic and abusable.

I agree which is why I have an idea that is somewhat similar to what you suggested that's in the middle ground.

Split the MDESC up into two MSDESC. 1 for Face and/or Head. 1 for Everything Else (Rest of Body)

Wearing a mask conceals Face/Head MDESC but nothing else.

However, considering how major of a change this would be for something this insignificant, I highly doubt it will ever be implemented.

Quote from: Creslin on June 29, 2012, 06:17:17 PM

Quote from: titansfan on June 28, 2012, 03:55:39 PM
I think they should hide the mdesc but all the articles of armor or clothing should still be visible. I don't know if people have suggested it completely masking you or what. But I find hiding the mdesc to be acceptable and realistic.

I had an idea for a compromised solution, not sure if anyone has suggested this before so sorry if I'm repeating an already suggested idea...  :-[

Quote from: Yam on June 28, 2012, 04:08:54 PM
My optimal solution would be for characters to have both regular mdescs and their concealed mdescs. The regular mdesc would be replaced by the concealed mdesc when the character wore a mask/facewrap + a cloak with a raised hood, and would only describe physical characteristics visible in that garb.

I think straight up mdesc removal is too unrealistic and abusable.

I agree which is why I have an idea that is somewhat similar to what you suggested that's in the middle ground.

Split the MDESC up into two MSDESC. 1 for Face and/or Head. 1 for Everything Else (Rest of Body)

Wearing a mask conceals Face/Head MDESC but nothing else.

However, considering how major of a change this would be for something this insignificant, I highly doubt it will ever be implemented.

That wouild be pretty limiting to the flow of text. You wouldn't ever see "brown hair covers his body, from head to toe..." or "he is completely hairless" because that is -inclusive- and you're asking for exclusivity.

The only "solution" that doesn't do that, would be to have two distinctly different descriptions: one for facial coverings, and one for unobscured faces.
Unfortunately, the staff can't even keep up with the number of typos, grammatical errors, and "wrong word" errors in the existing format of a single mdesc; I'd rather not see them have to wade through two for each character.

Or tag-based descriptions, like allowing people to tag what in their description is their face or head.  Though that wouldn't solve the approval-checking problem.

Quote from: valeria on June 29, 2012, 09:42:20 PM
Or tag-based descriptions, like allowing people to tag what in their description is their face or head.  Though that wouldn't solve the approval-checking problem.

That still doesn't eliminate or address the problem of free-flowing text. It just disconnects players from their characters even further. Yes, it's an "immersion" issue. A clunky off-the-top-of-my-head example that I'm making up here:

the willowy, red-furred elf

This male has narrow, lanky features from pointed ears to long gangly legs. His face, regularly exposed to the burning rays of Suk-Krath, has been baked to a near-black hue while the rest of his body is a deep bronze. Most remarkable are the patches of short, wooly red hair that covers his skin, only slightly longer at the top of his scalp.

With your suggestion, it'd read like this:

This male has narrow, lanky features from [redacted] to long gangly legs. His [redacted], regularly exposed to the burning rays of Suk-Krath, has been baked to a near-black hue while the rest of his body is a deep bronze. Most remarkable are the patches of short, wooly red hair that covers his skin, only slightly longer at the top of [redacted.]

And of course - since he has his hood up and his face covered, we know to replace [redacted] with head, face, and scalp, respectively.

At worse - it'd look more like this:

This male has narrow, lanky features...legs. His...rest of his body is a deep bronze. Most remarkable ... covers his skin.

Which, as you can see, is not especially readable, nor enjoyable to read. If you were to add any details at all, it'd give away what his face/head/scalp looked like. And so you wouldn't be able to write that description -at all- or you'd have to accept that it'd look really really stupid when you tagged the key facial features when you put up your hood/covered your face to make sure no one could see it.

I wouldn't want anything that compromised the literary freedom of the mdesc.

At the end of the day nothing is impossible.  All you need is a coder who wants to do it and a way to satisfy both sides of the playing field.

The people who want to be able to have absolute anonymity.
AND
The people who want to keep it the way it is.

This is a text based game, so anything short of making use of my graphics card, they could do with enough desire to do it.

I don't understand why some people are saying, you can't do it because of the mdesc and how it's covering up technically your whole description for a thing that covers your face/head.

You can, you could do any of the things people have suggested, give it a description of it's own.  Have characters write two descriptions of their characters, one like this:

QuoteNormal:
My Character is a big hairy ape who has muscles ontop of muscles.
Masked:
%masked's face is obscured but from looking at the rest of his body you would see he's very muscular, also he is extremely hairy.

And yes, this is a gross over simplification, and people would have to do a little bit of work to morph their description to a masked variable, but no more then how some of you emote two lines of text in a few moments.

Not even absolute anonymity, just the potential for successful anonymity in a vaguely realistic fashion.

Unless you're talking about a customizable description, similar to tdesc, then you're wasting coder time.  What it boils down to is that people will learn your "secondary desc" and 'contact mask.goudra,' and dun dun dun -- you're busted.

Have a little faith in other players.  In lieu of that ...  File player complaints.

The hide and sneak skills do the trick imho.

Quote from: Jingo on June 30, 2012, 02:52:31 AM
The hide and sneak skills do the trick imho.

They do. The problem is then you have to act out of character in a way and only focus on npcs until you have everything else maxxed to prevent other players from abusing the fact that they get too much information unrealistically. Then everyone bitches because when they start getting hit, it's from fully mastered thieves, etc and they can't do -anything- about them except get property raped.

Quote from: Cerelum on June 29, 2012, 10:46:39 PM
At the end of the day nothing is impossible.  All you need is a coder who wants to do it and a way to satisfy both sides of the playing field.

The people who want to be able to have absolute anonymity.
AND
The people who want to keep it the way it is.

This is a text based game, so anything short of making use of my graphics card, they could do with enough desire to do it.

I don't understand why some people are saying, you can't do it because of the mdesc and how it's covering up technically your whole description for a thing that covers your face/head.

You can, you could do any of the things people have suggested, give it a description of it's own.  Have characters write two descriptions of their characters, one like this:

QuoteNormal:
My Character is a big hairy ape who has muscles ontop of muscles.
Masked:
%masked's face is obscured but from looking at the rest of his body you would see he's very muscular, also he is extremely hairy.

And yes, this is a gross over simplification, and people would have to do a little bit of work to morph their description to a masked variable, but no more then how some of you emote two lines of text in a few moments.

Pretty sure the people coding for Armageddon have bigger things to tackle. No, it is not a perfect system. Yes, our Playerbase seems to get along fine all considering. The simplest solution is -- If you think someone has unrealistically identified your character, using discreet portions of your mdesc that are hidden by your equipment list, file a player complaint. We'll at least look things over, and determine if your full description was worthy of noting entirely. But it honestly turns into nitpicking at that point, and a general waste of time for volunteer Staff, don't you think? As a player, I never had problems playing these sorts of things off. I trust you guys as mature equals, and believe you can determine what or what not is noticed when looking at a masked, hooded figure, without needing hard code to determine it for you.

I would say that the player base is 'fine' because they simply avoid doing anything which would require real anonymity for their success or survival, because they know it isn't possible.

That's a real shame, as anonymity opens up a plethora of opportunities and potential storylines. Think about the number of famous characters that rely entirely on dual identities (pretty much all superheroes and villains for a start!).

Yes, you could do it anyway and hope that other players will respect the mask...but if they don't, and your whole plot hinges off it, then by the time a player complaint is filed and looked at (by volunteer staff who have better things to do) - it's way too late. Things will have gone too far down an IC route for them ever to be changed.

But the offending player will know for next time.

But next time it will be a different offending player.

It's just a darn shame.

Quote from: Maso on June 30, 2012, 04:49:32 PM
I would say that the player base is 'fine' because they simply avoid doing anything which would require real anonymity for their success or survival, because they know it isn't possible.

That's a real shame, as anonymity opens up a plethora of opportunities and potential storylines. Think about the number of famous characters that rely entirely on dual identities (pretty much all superheroes and villains for a start!).

Yes, you could do it anyway and hope that other players will respect the mask...but if they don't, and your whole plot hinges off it, then by the time a player complaint is filed and looked at (by volunteer staff who have better things to do) - it's way too late. Things will have gone too far down an IC route for them ever to be changed.

But the offending player will know for next time.

But next time it will be a different offending player.

It's just a darn shame.

Not possible without magick, anyway.  But seriously, be careful what you wish for with the whole anonymity thing.  There might be some potential for awesome, but there's also a vast sea of untapped griefing.

Quote from: Maso on June 30, 2012, 04:49:32 PM
I would say that the player base is 'fine' because they simply avoid doing anything which would require real anonymity for their success or survival, because they know it isn't possible.

That's a real shame, as anonymity opens up a plethora of opportunities and potential storylines. Think about the number of famous characters that rely entirely on dual identities (pretty much all superheroes and villains for a start!).

Yes, you could do it anyway and hope that other players will respect the mask...but if they don't, and your whole plot hinges off it, then by the time a player complaint is filed and looked at (by volunteer staff who have better things to do) - it's way too late. Things will have gone too far down an IC route for them ever to be changed.

But the offending player will know for next time.

But next time it will be a different offending player.

It's just a darn shame.

Agreed, they aren't going to bring you back to life after the Templar has roleplayed your death for half an hour and codedly killed you because Twink A decided to ignore the fact they couldn't see your facial features and reported you, causing you to get caught.

So the player gets a slap on the wrist and you get to start over on another player.

Anonymity is really hard in real life. Superheroes aren't a good comparison. Mdesc erasing masks aren't (and proved to not be) a good idea.

I'm against it because it seems like they're only used to protect a PC while they do something that others don't want them to do, so they don't have to cry or lose their PC when people stop them from doing said things.

Get better at doing it or get better friends.

Quote from: Lizzie on June 29, 2012, 10:07:50 PM

Quote from: valeria on June 29, 2012, 09:42:20 PM
Or tag-based descriptions, like allowing people to tag what in their description is their face or head.  Though that wouldn't solve the approval-checking problem.

That still doesn't eliminate or address the problem of free-flowing text. It just disconnects players from their characters even further. Yes, it's an "immersion" issue. A clunky off-the-top-of-my-head example that I'm making up here: ...

Sorry it took me a while to respond, I was out of town.

Anyway, to clarify, your example isn't how it works on muds with tags.  It works more like this (actual description of past character):

This swarthy young woman has skin of such a deep chocolate brown that it almost looks black, especially in low light.  Because of this, the pale lines of the scars on her skin stand out sharply<arms>, and it's obvious she has a good share of them on the backs of her arms</arms>.  She is tall and rangy, and has a lithely-muscled athletic cast to her build rather than a bulky one.  <head>Her bouncy black ringlets have been cut short back from her face, but trail a little down the back of her neck, almost but not quite long enough to brush against her shoulders.  </head><eyes>Predictably, her eyes are also dark, so that her deep brown irises barely stand out from the pupils.  They are large and deeply set under her broad brow.  </eyes><face>She also has a strong jaw and chin, and full lips, giving a masculine cast to her face.</face>

You'd only have to get rid of 'predictably' to make it work on any reading.  You tag sentences rather than words.  Just looking through my past files, most people keep their sentences organized to a singe topic, like build, face, hair, etc, already.  However, because it would require additions to some really basic coding infrastructure, it probably wouldn't be very easy to add.

Under a tags system, you can have the sentences about someone's height, build, skin tone, etc stay in while removing specifics about head, face, and hair, and without really restricting how a person can set up their character.  You provide a list of available tags people can fill in, if they want, when appropriate.  If people don't have eye descriptions, they just don't use that tag.  If a person didn't want to use tags, the whole description would just display all the time.

Again though, that would -only- work if you restrict and limit character features. You wouldn't be able to have a character with hair longer than neck-length because then - is the hair part of the shoulders tag, or the head tag? Or the back tag..if it's not part of the back tag, then clearly their hair -cannot- grow down to their waist; that would violate the function of the head tag. They can't compare one part of their body to the other part, because -that- would violate the function of the individual tags. You can't tell anyone that your hands and forearms are significantly darker than your face, in the same sentence, because "face" is not "arms." You basically prohibit comparatives entirely.

You are, again, limiting text rather than encouraging it. You're telling everyone they -must- write in a certain way, and that they -cannot- write any other way. You're sticking them with a template. Templates are limited and awkward and difficult for many people to adhere to.

Quote from: Lizzie on July 01, 2012, 07:55:49 PM
Again though, that would -only- work if you restrict and limit character features. You wouldn't be able to have a character with hair longer than neck-length because then - is the hair part of the shoulders tag, or the head tag? Or the back tag..if it's not part of the back tag, then clearly their hair -cannot- grow down to their waist; that would violate the function of the head tag. They can't compare one part of their body to the other part, because -that- would violate the function of the individual tags. You can't tell anyone that your hands and forearms are significantly darker than your face, in the same sentence, because "face" is not "arms." You basically prohibit comparatives entirely.

You are, again, limiting text rather than encouraging it. You're telling everyone they -must- write in a certain way, and that they -cannot- write any other way. You're sticking them with a template. Templates are limited and awkward and difficult for many people to adhere to.

Or using both tags, so that if it was head that was covered or hair that was covered, they would both be covered.  And add the back tag in when you're describing length.  Or just keep the length in a tdesc if you're really worried about it.  Or putting the length-appropriate tags at the end of the sentence, with the length in an independent clause, so it's only covered when waist/etc is covered (tag before comma, end tag before period).  It makes it read as a sentence.  Examples can be provided in a helpfile.

Quote from: Lizzie on July 01, 2012, 07:55:49 PM
Again though, that would -only- work if you restrict and limit character features. You wouldn't be able to have a character with hair longer than neck-length because then - is the hair part of the shoulders tag, or the head tag? Or the back tag..if it's not part of the back tag, then clearly their hair -cannot- grow down to their waist; that would violate the function of the head tag. They can't compare one part of their body to the other part, because -that- would violate the function of the individual tags. You can't tell anyone that your hands and forearms are significantly darker than your face, in the same sentence, because "face" is not "arms." You basically prohibit comparatives entirely.

You are, again, limiting text rather than encouraging it. You're telling everyone they -must- write in a certain way, and that they -cannot- write any other way. You're sticking them with a template. Templates are limited and awkward and difficult for many people to adhere to.

I'd agree that this was a problem if it wasn't already completely neglected.  Hooded figures with full helms on still accurately described to the finest detail, making this nitpicking a moot point.

Quote from: Yam on June 30, 2012, 05:54:38 PM
Anonymity is really hard in real life. Superheroes aren't a good comparison.

Tell that to all the to RL criminals that were on camera but managed to get away because they tied a shirt about their face.

Quote from: Qzzrbl on July 07, 2012, 08:36:45 AM

Quote from: Yam on June 30, 2012, 05:54:38 PM
Anonymity is really hard in real life. Superheroes aren't a good comparison.

Tell that to all the to RL criminals that were on camera but managed to get away because they tied a shirt about their face.

Mmmhmm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfrXyQRuUlQ)

Quote from: Case on June 30, 2012, 07:42:06 PM
I'm against it because it seems like they're only used to protect a PC while they do something that others don't want them to do, so they don't have to cry or lose their PC when people stop them from doing said things.

Get better at doing it or get better friends.

The hidden assumption of your argument (and a hidden assumption that seems to linger beneath the surface of most discussions of PC crime) seems to be that players of criminal PCs are "up to no good" and should therefore be given minimal code support, because they're being bad (thus the focus on "something that others don't want them to do").  A criminal PC is not necessarily the same as a griefer.  It is a merely role in the game like any other.  I might as well say: 

QuoteThe only reason people use shields is to protect a PC while fighting something/someone that should rightfully be hitting them, so they don't have to cry or lose their PC when that something/someone hits them.

Get better at your weapon skill or get better friends.

But since shields can't get their grubby fingers on PC's phat l00t, you never see this kind of dismissive snark directed toward that kind of feature.  Or hey, if you wouldn't be able to handle masked PCs causing you trouble, maybe you should get better friends.  In short, I find this sort of argument from snark very unconvincing.

A mask is a stupidly simple and accessible tool, simpler than a shield, and has been used by ne'er-do-wells to great effect for a very long time.  I'm not convinced the implementational problems discussed can be practically and easily surmounted, but that's not the same thing at all as saying identity concealment is a bad idea for the game.  Specially tagged mdescs would have to be optional.  There's no way around this.  Noobs have enough to worry about without having to learn a markup language just to write a desc.  It's also likely to be an approval nightmare.  I am a strong advocate of KISS and think that the "study" implementation mentioned earlier is probably the most elegant. 

Something that no one else has mentioned that i also think is important -- there should be serious combat, perception and stealth penalties for wearing concealing masks.  I'd even go a step further and suggest that people wearing concealment masks could be unprotected by crim code.  People won't be crimflagged for attacking them, since they're clearly up to no good.  (This would get complicated if, say, nobles started wearing masquerade ball outfits or whatever, but that's a pretty special case, and could be handled by making non-sneaky masks non-concealing.)  Of course concealing masks should not allow immunity from new or existing crimflags.

If you combine that with a simple, no-fail way to see through the ruse, like "study," and we'll have masks that are so nerfed into uselessness that abuse potential is virtually nil, but it will at least offer some more code support for a style of roleplay that is undersupported currently.  But hey, I'll take what I can get.  Hell, I'm happy that masks even cover *sdescs*, because even that is a form of code support for concealment roleplay.

Rather than us speculating about what terrible things PC's did when we had mdesc concealing masks ... I wish staff could give us some examples.

Quote from: musashi on July 07, 2012, 08:46:32 PM
Rather than us speculating about what terrible things PC's did when we had mdesc concealing masks ... I wish staff could give us some examples.

I was a player at that time.  I remember.  Mdesc concealing masks were kinda cool.
However, characters, and I remember distinctly would commit crimes and be completely invulnerable to the crimcode.  Certainly PCs couldn't figure out, unrealistically, who they were.

(Note: I can be completely misremember this - it was a LONG time ago and I barely understand a lot of mechanics even now.)

I believe I remember that a PC would try and pick-pocket you and when they failed would just laugh at you and stand there in the middle of the 'naki market.
At least, that is my memory.  I think there was also an Elvish market in 'naki market also - so I could just be full of shit.

Quote from: catchall on July 07, 2012, 01:05:14 PM

Quote from: Case on June 30, 2012, 07:42:06 PM
I'm against it because it seems like they're only used to protect a PC while they do something that others don't want them to do, so they don't have to cry or lose their PC when people stop them from doing said things.

Get better at doing it or get better friends.

The hidden assumption of your argument (and a hidden assumption that seems to linger beneath the surface of most discussions of PC crime) seems to be that players of criminal PCs are "up to no good" and should therefore be given minimal code support, because they're being bad (thus the focus on "something that others don't want them to do").  A criminal PC is not necessarily the same as a griefer.  It is a merely role in the game like any other.  I might as well say: 

QuoteThe only reason people use shields is to protect a PC while fighting something/someone that should rightfully be hitting them, so they don't have to cry or lose their PC when that something/someone hits them.

Get better at your weapon skill or get better friends.

But since shields can't get their grubby fingers on PC's phat l00t, you never see this kind of dismissive snark directed toward that kind of feature.  Or hey, if you wouldn't be able to handle masked PCs causing you trouble, maybe you should get better friends.  In short, I find this sort of argument from snark very unconvincing.

A mask is a stupidly simple and accessible tool, simpler than a shield, and has been used by ne'er-do-wells to great effect for a very long time.  I'm not convinced the implementational problems discussed can be practically and easily surmounted, but that's not the same thing at all as saying identity concealment is a bad idea for the game.  Specially tagged mdescs would have to be optional.  There's no way around this.  Noobs have enough to worry about without having to learn a markup language just to write a desc.  It's also likely to be an approval nightmare.  I am a strong advocate of KISS and think that the "study" implementation mentioned earlier is probably the most elegant. 

Something that no one else has mentioned that i also think is important -- there should be serious combat, perception and stealth penalties for wearing concealing masks.  I'd even go a step further and suggest that people wearing concealment masks could be unprotected by crim code.  People won't be crimflagged for attacking them, since they're clearly up to no good.  (This would get complicated if, say, nobles started wearing masquerade ball outfits or whatever, but that's a pretty special case, and could be handled by making non-sneaky masks non-concealing.)  Of course concealing masks should not allow immunity from new or existing crimflags.

If you combine that with a simple, no-fail way to see through the ruse, like "study," and we'll have masks that are so nerfed into uselessness that abuse potential is virtually nil, but it will at least offer some more code support for a style of roleplay that is undersupported currently.  But hey, I'll take what I can get.  Hell, I'm happy that masks even cover *sdescs*, because even that is a form of code support for concealment roleplay.

I'm talking about when people want to be criminals who are untouchable, especially through code. Criminals are great fun when they're being realistic criminals.

I'll state, there are Mdesc covering COSTUMES.

But I agree, we should be able to cover our mdesc. i've been metagamed several times across a few pc's. Even when i took care to completely change everything about my pc's clothing, and wore a wig.

Quote from: DustMight on July 07, 2012, 09:22:54 PM

Quote from: musashi on July 07, 2012, 08:46:32 PM
Rather than us speculating about what terrible things PC's did when we had mdesc concealing masks ... I wish staff could give us some examples.

I was a player at that time.  I remember.  Mdesc concealing masks were kinda cool.
However, characters, and I remember distinctly would commit crimes and be completely invulnerable to the crimcode.  Certainly PCs couldn't figure out, unrealistically, who they were.

(Note: I can be completely misremember this - it was a LONG time ago and I barely understand a lot of mechanics even now.)

I believe I remember that a PC would try and pick-pocket you and when they failed would just laugh at you and stand there in the middle of the 'naki market.
At least, that is my memory.  I think there was also an Elvish market in 'naki market also - so I could just be full of shit.

I don't understand why wearing a mask should make anyone immune to the soldiers in the city

Don't recall any instance where it made crim code not work.  Exposure limited, though.  They just weren't common.

I agree with Yam...I don't think Mdesc should be hidden unless an approved alternate description is in place.   

I feel like this is still sort of on topic
I was in Luirs one time and a mage had a Tdesc set covering their gem with a scarf.  I have done the same thing and gone to Tuluk with a scarf and a tdesc, its not the same.  I didn't notice the tdesc and said something about it.  I felt bad about it.  Mages should have a means of covering their gem.  Maybe make it illegal to cover the gem in Allanak, but make it concealable. 

If the gem were coded as a tattoo at the neck or about throat area, it would allow this.

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 08, 2012, 03:45:12 AM
If the gem were coded as a tattoo at the neck or about throat area, it would allow this.

But then you couldn't take it off. It wouldn't be an object anymore :-(

Quote from: musashi on July 08, 2012, 05:30:11 AM

Quote from: The7DeadlyVenomz on July 08, 2012, 03:45:12 AM
If the gem were coded as a tattoo at the neck or about throat area, it would allow this.

But then you couldn't take it off. It wouldn't be an object anymore :-(

What about just another wear location?...Just for things that are not advantageous codedly.

<worn around neck>          a giant escru-wool scarf
<worn about throat>         a pile of blue and green sandcloth scarves
<worn lodged into trachea>  a dull black gem

Whoops.

Also I want this as a wear loc just so I can assess things and see:
                a small, sharp object can be worn lodged into the trachea

Quote from: Sav on July 08, 2012, 06:49:35 AM

Code Select Expand

<worn around neck>          a giant escru-wool scarf
<worn about throat>         a pile of blue and green sandcloth scarves
<worn lodged into trachea>  a dull black gem

Whoops.

Also I want this as a wear loc just so I can assess things and see:
                a small, sharp object can be worn lodged into the trachea

lol

Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on July 08, 2012, 01:42:15 AM
I was in Luirs one time and a mage had a Tdesc set covering their gem with a scarf.  I have done the same thing and gone to Tuluk with a scarf and a tdesc, its not the same.  I didn't notice the tdesc and said something about it.  I felt bad about it.  Mages should have a means of covering their gem.  Maybe make it illegal to cover the gem in Allanak, but make it concealable. 

I think it should be concealable without being illegal at all, but always with a chance of being 'noticed', and with a culture of it being incredibly frowned upon and suspicious if you were trying to conceal it from people you were 'befriending'. Like trying to get a job and not telling them etc, or getting close to someone.

It could easily be coded as a neck/throat slot that acts like 'tattoo' slot in that it gets covered.

I actually don't think that's codedly possible with this system.

I'm not sure if the code would allow such a thing, and if it wouldn't take a hundred years for it to be implemented, but..

I think people wearing masks and such should be semi-protected. If you're wearing a mask and are caught trying to steal someone's well-earned 'sid, then yes, even if your mdesc is covered and nobody could tell who you are, the militia will certainly try to arrest you for it.

But if you manage to escape, run into some alleyway/the rinth, shake off the guards and change up your outfit a bit? (or not at all, since most commoners will dress alike, anyway) The current crimcode will have the soldiers chase you none the less, even if you were to shake them off, change your attire -completely-, were to slap on some tattoos and moved to a completely different part of town.

I know, suspension of disbelief, etc, etc, but.. A man can dream, he can.

Quote from: Yam on July 08, 2012, 02:40:27 PM
I actually don't think that's codedly possible with this system.

Ok...I'm not a coder so I don't really understand...wouldn't it be like having multiple finger slots for rings? Except they are covered by the glove slot? So multiple throat slots get covered by neck slots?

All I wanna say is, if Masks are ever changed back to changing descriptions, I want "take mask (target)" so I can just snatch it off your face and see who you are.

Power emotes made into commands?

lol no thanks

Quote from: Fredd on July 07, 2012, 09:38:46 PM
I'll state, there are Mdesc covering COSTUMES.

I'll state:  you're absolutely wrong, or you've witnessed a bug.  Please put in a request about whatever this mdesc covering thing is, because it shouldn't be there.

I have not seen a mask that swaps out your mdesc with the mask's desc since playing in the Black Moon.

Quote from: Hot_Dancer on July 08, 2012, 08:44:17 PM
I have not seen a mask that swaps out your mdesc with the mask's desc since playing in the Black Moon.

There were a bunch of them maybe, 3 years ago? I was playing a Kadian agent at the time and identified them, and Nyr and I think Senga reconfigured them so they wouldn't do that anymore. I'm sure there were others before that, and some that I missed and someone else got after me.

Quote from: Maso on July 08, 2012, 04:35:48 PM

Quote from: Yam on July 08, 2012, 02:40:27 PM
I actually don't think that's codedly possible with this system.

Ok...I'm not a coder so I don't really understand...wouldn't it be like having multiple finger slots for rings? Except they are covered by the glove slot? So multiple throat slots get covered by neck slots?

In Diku, I believe there are a finite number of slots before the system starts to malfunction. I'm not positive, so I could easily be horribly wrong, but on a base I was messing with back in the day, I think the number was 32.

Now, Maso, you are correct. Technically, one could simply add a slot for the gem, and necklaces, and whatnot, and then have it covered by a throat or neck worn object. And as long as we are not at the finite number, or there is no finite number, I'd absolutely support such an addition.

Aren't the various tattoo locations counted as slots as well, though?

Quote from: MeTekillot on July 09, 2012, 12:32:07 AM
Aren't the various tattoo locations counted as slots as well, though?

Seems that way, though we can't know if they're the same codewise.

It would be a really big deal, I think, given the nature of the gem, to just make it a tattoo like item.

But we're getting off topic...  New thread?

No - I'm pretty sure those are parts of a different array. Array, that was the word I was looking for. 32 bits to an array.

Just remove a ring slot. Way too many of them anyway. Not being able to wear multiple things around your neck seems silly...and who wears 10 rings anyway?

Pimp as mothafuckas, that's who.

Quote from: Maso on July 09, 2012, 12:39:26 AM
Just remove a ring slot. Way too many of them anyway. Not being able to wear multiple things around your neck seems silly...and who wears 10 rings anyway?

>look templar
You look at the portly, mean-faced templar.
He is looks like an asshole.
He is in excellent condition.

<Worn on body> A bunch of scary shit shit
<Worn on right finger> A spiked chitin ring
<Worn on right finger> A spiked chitin ring
<Worn on right finger> A spiked chitin ring
<Worn on right finger> A spiked chitin ring
<Worn on right finger> A spiked chitin ring
<Worn on left finger> A spiked chitin ring
<Worn on left finger> A spiked chitin ring
<Worn on left finger> A spiked chitin ring
<Worn on left finger> A spiked chitin ring
<Worn on left finger> A spiked chitin ring

The mean-faced portly templar hits you on the head very hard, doing grievous damage!


And that's why you wear rings.

No point in having them on your thumbs.

The thumb rings are for sniping down that rinther who tried to run off.

Quote from: Feco on July 09, 2012, 12:33:31 AM

Quote from: MeTekillot on July 09, 2012, 12:32:07 AM
Aren't the various tattoo locations counted as slots as well, though?

Seems that way, though we can't know if they're the same codewise.

It would be a really big deal, I think, given the nature of the gem, to just make it a tattoo like item.

But we're getting off topic...  New thread?

Do it.

Quote from: Nyr on July 08, 2012, 05:59:39 PM

Quote from: Fredd on July 07, 2012, 09:38:46 PM
I'll state, there are Mdesc covering COSTUMES.

I'll state:  you're absolutely wrong, or you've witnessed a bug.  Please put in a request about whatever this mdesc covering thing is, because it shouldn't be there.

I remember a very prominant person wearing a kank costume for a certain competition. I'm pretty sure staff will know what I'm talking about.

I can't state who, due to the fact the pc is still very much alive, although it's been a long time.

Quote from: Maso on July 09, 2012, 12:39:26 AM
Just remove a ring slot. Way too many of them anyway. Not being able to wear multiple things around your neck seems silly...and who wears 10 rings anyway?

My last PC needed every wear location the game could offer  >:(

Quote from: Fredd on July 09, 2012, 06:09:58 AM

Quote from: Nyr on July 08, 2012, 05:59:39 PM

Quote from: Fredd on July 07, 2012, 09:38:46 PM
I'll state, there are Mdesc covering COSTUMES.

I'll state:  you're absolutely wrong, or you've witnessed a bug.  Please put in a request about whatever this mdesc covering thing is, because it shouldn't be there.

I remember a very prominant person wearing a kank costume for a certain competition. I'm pretty sure staff will know what I'm talking about.

I can't state who, due to the fact the pc is still very much alive, although it's been a long time.

thank you for doing exactly the opposite of what I suggested :)

Quote from: Maso on July 09, 2012, 12:39:26 AM
Just remove a ring slot. Way too many of them anyway. Not being able to wear multiple things around your neck seems silly...and who wears 10 rings anyway?

Quote from: Yam on July 09, 2012, 12:46:45 AM
Pimp as mothafuckas, that's who.

w00t!

Quote from: chrisdcoulombe on July 09, 2012, 03:24:47 AM

Quote from: Feco on July 09, 2012, 12:33:31 AM

Quote from: MeTekillot on July 09, 2012, 12:32:07 AM
Aren't the various tattoo locations counted as slots as well, though?

Seems that way, though we can't know if they're the same codewise.

It would be a really big deal, I think, given the nature of the gem, to just make it a tattoo like item.

But we're getting off topic...  New thread?

Do it.

All this kind of discussion is arbitrary anyway, isn't it? We all just go round and round in circles every so often, discussing the pro's and con's of various things and what we'd like to see changed, and people chime in about how that would be awful and abusable, and other people talk about how awesome it would, Nyr posts some links to previous, identical threads, debate continues for a bit. And then nothing happens and the thread eventually dies.

It'd probably be more effective if the staff would post or link to a post where they state whether they have any interest/intention of changing things. Thus ending the debate, hopefully.

Well, ignoring the derail of this thread onto the subject of gems...I'm going to assume, since Nyr keeps posting to have mdesc hiding items reported so that they can fix them to stop hiding mdescs....that re-introducing mdesc hiding objects...probably ain't gonna happen.

Not likely, no, sorry.

Quote from: Jeshin on July 09, 2012, 07:20:13 PM
It'd probably be more effective if the staff would post or link to a post where they state whether they have any interest/intention of changing things. Thus ending the debate, hopefully.

It'd probably be more effective if the players would read the thread in question to see if staff have posted said links.  Or posted their opinions.  Or even just implied their opinions.

End of the day, this wont stop people from going "contact mask"

And using your short desc from that to identify you in the furture.

The code was changed a few years ago to where you can no longer contact people using sdesc-hiding items unless they are in the "room" with you.
I wonder would it not also be a good move to make it where contacting a figure in the room with you gave you something besides their character's sdesc.  Perhaps simply: You contact the tall figure in the dark, hooded cloak with the Way. If there is more than one of the same looking figure in the room with you, that you do not know... well... You don't know them well enough to tell one mind from the other.  I've never seen any evidence in the game to lead me to believe that with a non-psion (not going to speculate there one way or the other) looking at two "twins" you could control which one you want to contact without knowing them, at least a little.

You know the best part. Morgenes answered this debate for everyone.

Facial accessories don't hide a person's entire physical appearance (mdesc) - simply because - they are not the portable Zalanthan equivalent of Klingon cloaking devices!

Other skills/spells can do this for you.

It was unrealistic to the point of bordering on silly - that a simple facial accessory was enough to hide a person's identity and appearance so much so that you couldn't tell if the wearer was "a legless halfling" or "a mutant half-giant with two heads"!

There are things like the sound of your voice and physical dimensions that just can't be repeated by code.  Going by assess is just not accurate enough.  Not to mention the problem that it puts too much in the hand of the raider to decide if they get caught.   Unlike Templars and soliders raiding or mugging is not a sponsored role.

And besides unless you are playing a silly raider who sits in Luirs looks at people then goes out kills them in the sand, does it really affect you?  If you live a life of raw crime shouldn't you not be seen in public places all the time so someone can just point you out.

The same idea that you put raise your hood go to the Retreat steal something from a noble to get looked at, then walk into the Gaj right after and act like your are the greatest citizen is kind of stupid.  

If you are a thief/raider you will get caught and it shouldn't be on your terms how.

EDIT:
Well some people actually let themselves get caught for good RP fun!
But it still can't be only by what the Raider/mugger decides.