From the RAT derail:
I brought this up in staff announcement a few years ago:
Quote from: FantasyWriterQuote
If you want to play a human tribal from a virtual (non-coded) human tribe, then you can choose the nomad subguild, whatever guild and starting location you like, and get on your merry way with doing that. Do be aware that if you are taking this option, you still can't recruit other PCs (either OOCly or ICly) to join your tribe.
I've been looking over all the rules (official and policy changes in the Staff Announcement folder).
I was and still am under the impression that we could still form groups of PCs in game so long as a) all work is done in character, realistically within the scope of the game world, and follows existing documentation and b) the concept does not require or expect staff support such as new buildings, a coded clan, special gear, etc.
My question is: Under the new "Player-Driven" policy, are we no longer allowed to form/participate in in-game groups of player characters (such as desert tribes, merc groups, raider bands, and merchantile organizations) other than staff-supported, coded clans?
And I was told:
Quote from: Staff ResponseYou can form a group, but you can't form a "tribe." A group has a purpose behind it, usually to do business of a certain type (mercenary work, raiding work, crafting work, hunting work, etc.). A tribe is very different from that, and it makes no sense at all to try to form a "tribe" through in-character actions. As I said elsewhere, a tribe by Zalanthan definition (and Earth too) has characteristics such as being a group of same-race humanoids who are all related by blood, and sharing the purpose of survival as a group and some common inherited culture. Groups formed in game through PC action have none of those things, therefore they are not a "tribe."
Problems with this response:
What's in a name?In short, the definition given in the response took tiny snippets out of "Earth" definitions and excluded the majority of text and context.
Staff Response's Definition of a tribe:
Quote from: Staff Response
... a tribe by Zalanthan definition (and Earth too) has characteristics such as being a group of same-race humanoids who are all related by blood, and sharing the purpose of survival as a group and some common inherited culture. Groups formed in game through PC action have none of those things, therefore they are not a "tribe."
Wikipedia's Definition of a tribe:
QuoteA tribe is viewed, historically or developmentally, as a social group existing before the development of, or outside of, states. Many people used the term tribal society to refer to societies organized largely on the basis of social, especially corporate, descent groups (see clan and kinship).
Merriam Webster's Definitions of a tribe:
Quote
tribe
noun \ˈtrīb\
: a group of people that includes many families and relatives who have the same language, customs, and beliefs
: a large family
: a group of people who have the same job or interest
Full Definition of TRIBE
1
a : a social group comprising numerous families, clans, or generations together with slaves, dependents, or adopted strangers
b : a political division of the Roman people originally representing one of the three original tribes of ancient Rome
c : phyle
2
: a group of persons having a common character, occupation, or interest
3
: a category of taxonomic classification ranking below a subfamily; also : a natural group irrespective of taxonomic rank <the cat tribe> <the rose tribe>
Examples of TRIBE
a tribe of artists with wild hair and casual manners
<the wedding joined the two tribes together>
Oxford British and World English Dictionary's Definition of Tribe:
Quotenoun
1a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader:indigenous Indian tribes
(in ancient Rome) each of several political divisions, originally three, later thirty, ultimately thirty-five.
often derogatory a distinctive or close-knit group:she made a stand against the social codes of her English middle-class tribe brands are adopted by a tribe of users an outburst against the whole tribe of theoreticians
informal a large number of people:tribes of children playing under the watchful eyes of nurses
2 Biology a taxonomic category that ranks above genus and below family or subfamily, usually ending in -ini (in zoology) or -eae (in botany).
Static v. Origin, Waxing, Waning, and ColapseTribes, both in the real world and in the in-character world of Zalanthas, have to start somewhere. There are two major ways this happens: either a group breaks off from a larger group, or a group slowly grows from an individual, family group or band. Yes, from an OOC standpoint, Zalanthan tribes have always been "tribes." I believe most of the player created tribes that have been and are still around were brought forth as already fleshed-out virtual tribes. But let's take a look at Zalanthan history to see that tribes are not static, but come and go as the ages wear on:
Quote???
The Dragon rules the Known World for four hundred years. Most life, poisoned by the Dragon's magick, spread black plagues among the populations. Elves, dwarves, and men scatter to the furthest reaches of the realm to avoid the terrible Dragon, his dread servants, and the killing plagues which accompanied them.
???
The Dragon, for reasons unknown, departs the Known World. The empire of the Dragon, unable to function, crumbles within five years.
...
c.170 (Year 16 Age 3)
Nomadic tribes begin to settle at Vrun Driath and Gol Krathu.
...
1149 (Year 71 Age 15)
The last members of the ancient tribes are presumed dead. The fierce warfare between the tribes deprives them of sufficient numbers to survive, and the Clans vanish. Feudalism declines, accompanied by a rise in mercantilism.
...
1394 (Year 8 Age 19)
The joint forces of the Clear Waters Oasis tribe and the Ironsword clan attack Allanak's obsidian mine, managing to free the slaves. Thrain Ironsword dies in the battle along with several templars. After the attack the Clear Waters Oasis tribe, joined by a horde of former slaves, lay siege to Allanak. During this time, Tektolnes is mysteriously absent.
Furthermore, IIRC. At least a few coded "tribes" have procedures, for lack of a better word, for excepting new members into the tribe.
The Jaxa Pah and the Akei'Sjir both accepted non-blooded members in some capacity, so obviously not everyone in a tribe has to be a blood relative.
I can think of at least one tribe in game that did not originate from a group of blooded family members, so obviously tribes aren't solely limited to blooded family.
I think it's been said in the past that tribeless elves could come to see their clan (ie. the Byn or Kurac) as a tribe. So I'm finding it difficult to understand why players wouldn't be allowed to formulate such a group entirely in-game. It's not like they're asking for a coded camp and staff support.
Quote from: NyrThe answer is no, you can't recruit someone into your tribe in-game. It's the same perpetuation of the problem we try to prevent with the family roles rules.
The problem presumably being OOC cooperation between players in an effort to form a cohesive group within the game.
That being said, indie groups rise and fall. If an indie group was started by an elf, and he happened to only hire tribeless elves, would they eventually be considered a tribe? Is it expected to take years, or does it take generations before tribal culture and customs start to be defined? It's a bit confusing as there isn't really a well-known precedent for this. But if it takes an extremely long time to form a cohesive tribe on the level of the coded elven tribes, then that might be a reason that tribal recruitment is restricted - maybe you simply can't go from nothing, to a full-fledged tribe, in your PC's lifetime.
But I also take the staff attitude on this to mean you can still form an elven family, in which all the PCs are close relatives, using the typical family role process of submitting the idea to staff for approval then posting about it in Player Announcements. And they would technically be a tribe too, though only between those 2-4 players plus immediate vNPC family. You just can't then recruit people into that family/tribe, but of course you could still interact with elves outside of the tribe in various ways.
The other, largely OOC reason from the game's perspective that staff might have is that it concentrates what very few city elven PCs there are into the few clans that accept them, ensuring that the elven RP experience isn't diluted by elven PCs being scattered around the world, each with their own virtual tribe of 1 PC.
Players seem to have the option to test these boundaries out, within reason, and I guess if they can justify becoming a full-blown tribe from relatively humble beginnings, I don't really see a reason why staff would or should stop them.
Not really convinced by the dictionary mining. They strongly support the notion that a tribe is a tightly knit kin group defined primarily by blood and marriage relationships. Other uses, like people of the same occupation, are metaphorical or loose uses. Like one might call a group of co-workers or friends "family." It shouldn't muddle our understanding of what is actually being referred to.
And yes, tribes start somewhere. They start with families that get larger and larger over generations -- i.e. a plot arc so long that PCs can't realistically play them out, because by definition they would take longer than any one PCs life.
I really don't see any way around it. It just isn't possible to form a new tribe in-game at the level we engage with the game world. It's like the difference between the Sims and SimCity. Also, maybe in a future utopia, if we had pbase numbers of about 200-400 on at peak, with a contingent of long-lived PCs, and a viable, standardized way of generating new PCs through IC offspring, then maybe, just maybe, a tribe could actually form organically and it might make sense. Not the way we play now.
That said, since coded tribes IC have customs for accepting new members, I don't see any IC reason why a PC tribe partially represented by a PC family formed in accordance with family role guidelines couldn't have the same kinds of customs. As Cutthroat points out, the prohibition seems quite clearly OOC-based.
QuoteProblems with this response:
Just to clarify, these are your problems with a response given more than three years ago by a storyteller on an Ask the Staff question, a response which touched very lightly on one question. Still, let's go over it.
QuoteWhat's in a name?
In short, the definition given in the response took tiny snippets out of "Earth" definitions and excluded the majority of text and context.
Staff Response's Definition of a tribe:
Quote from: Staff Response
... a tribe by Zalanthan definition (and Earth too) has characteristics such as being a group of same-race humanoids who are all related by blood, and sharing the purpose of survival as a group and some common inherited culture. Groups formed in game through PC action have none of those things, therefore they are not a "tribe."
Yes, that's pretty close to what we on staff would say a tribe is in Zalanthas. And there are probably more of them. And PCs can't play in too many tribes that can recruit IC (there are a couple of exceptions, staff-supported/coded clans). And that's how the game is and we're pretty happy with that.
Yep, the prohibition on no player-created tribes that recruit IC is completely OOC-based.
Allanaki city elves are at a distinct disadvantage... Supposedly the tribes exist, somewhere, in the vNPC community, so you don't necessarily have to build it from scratch from a tiny family of PCs over generations, which simply wouldn't really be sustainable.
While, oh, maybe in the future the Jaxa Pah will be an option, still, maybe the elves from southside would rather not identify too closely with rinthi elves.
It becomes really difficult to play an Allanaki city elf under these conditions, but maybe I'm just not thinking creatively enough.
*whines*
Please open the Jaxaaaaaa?
Quote from: Iiyola on January 03, 2014, 02:04:18 AM
*whines*
Please open the Jaxaaaaaa?
Hah! I love you guys!
Jaxa Pah plz!!!!!!!!!!1
Plz guys come on plzzzz jus thtis one! wink wink!
So to clarify, a group of elves, family app or otherwise, could congregate in-game and call themselves a the Fuckwood Crew and do all their hunting and killing and drinking and fucking and whatever else, but they can't call themselves the Fuckwood Tribe?
Jaxa got closed?
Rats.
:(
Quote from: HavokBlue on January 03, 2014, 03:10:49 AM
So to clarify, a group of elves, family app or otherwise, could congregate in-game and call themselves a the Fuckwood Crew and do all their hunting and killing and drinking and fucking and whatever else, but they can't call themselves the Fuckwood Tribe?
Correct; this is an OOC restriction on PC roles. Inevitably, someone in the Fuckwood "Tribe" will try to recruit someone else into their tribe. Perhaps they will get a mate, and say "well my mate is actually part of the tribe now, that's how the tribe works," and then we're stuck dealing with at least a couple of players that have made things incredibly awkward to handle IC. And yes, we
do have to deal with it, because endlessly perpetuating tribes is the same problem as endlessly perpetuating families.
If you want to play a member of a tribe that does recruit under controlled conditions that are laid out carefully and approved by staff, you have limited options. At this time, I think it's fair to say that we do not feel that the ability to recruit people into a tribal role is integral to a tribal role, so that's why it is rare in-game in the cases where it is allowed (and otherwise disallowed/not part of the documentation/reserved for the most rare of occurrences).
Quote from: Nyr on January 03, 2014, 09:46:34 AM
If you want to play a member of a tribe that does recruit under controlled conditions that are laid out carefully and approved by staff, you have limited options. At this time, I think it's fair to say that we do not feel that the ability to recruit people into a tribal role is integral to a tribal role, so that's why it is rare in-game in the cases where it is allowed (and otherwise disallowed/not part of the documentation/reserved for the most rare of occurrences).
Yet tribe is integral to elves. That is what we keep getting told by staff, they point to the documentation on City Elf roleplay and about the tests of loyalty they should give to companions yet at the same time staff are always reminding everyone who is not an elf just how much all elves are sneaky thieves and you shouldn't be friendly towards them. So leaving only other tribeless city elves as valid targets for the loyalty tests, when a pair passes each others tests their natural inclination would be to form a tribe would it not? It's what is in their blood and the role-playing documentation we're directed to follow but suddenly BAM! You're breaking the rules on creating tribes?!
Given that there is no documentation at all about tribes of elves living in Allanak outside of the Labyrinth I would like staff to answer a simple question, yes or no. Are all elves from Allanak proper solitary thieves?
That seems to be the message Nyr is broadcasting. No city elf can try to create a tribe in game nor can they create some virtual tribe for their background that they belong to. Every city elf not from the Labyrinth is, and will forever be, a tribeless elf reject and since the Jaxa Pah is also indefinitely closed so is every elf in Allanak.
Unfortunately I have to concur with you, Bushranger. It seems the elves in Nak are 'broken'. They're weak targets, without a tribe. Plain and simple. Despite the fact they can do these loyalty tests, they hardly (if any) are able to rely on anyone else but themselves. To me, it would take away the fun of playing an elf in this city (while elves are actually so cool!).
It's unfortunate. I think elven PC's in Nak always add a little to the atmosphere in that city but all I've seen them do is join the Byn since... well... it's either that or being independent. And I'm not sure with which you are better off...
Personally, I like the no tribe rule entirely from an IC standpoint. I'm gathering that is not the reason why tribes are forbidden, but my preference is entirely IC.
One very important factor, whether elven, or human, is that tribe mates trust each other. They trust their tribe mates infinitely more then any other outsider. Sometimes, across a character's lifetime, he does meet people that he would trust in such manner. Mates, friends, compatriots, brothers and sisters in arms, mostly people who saved their life couple of dozen times. But the amount of people like that could be counted on one hand. They're not suddenly an entire "tribe".
I've brought that example before. The Walking Dead! In there, a group of people from all walks of life gathered up to survive better against hordes of zombies. Those people are very possible one of the few survivors of the entire species. And yet they "still" manage to fuck each other up, betray each other, cheat on each other, murder each other. They are a 'group', not a tribe.
If some players succeeded in creating a group and stayed together for over 20-30 game years. So long that the roots of their creation have long fell into the history, and the creators of the group have long became the folklore of their grown up children. I would argue that this group should start consider calling themselves a tribe. Especially if just saying that they belong to such and such group, would make other people instantly assume some particular type of behavior and beliefs of these group members.
Otherwise, it's just a bunch of people that gather up for whatever reason and want to remove the concepts and possibilities of "betrayal" from the relationships of each other for no good reason. And if "betrayal" still exists, then the entire concept of "tribe" is invalidated.
It is possible to play a tribeless elf, either via virtual tribe, or lonefooting. It 'does' require certain amount of mental ... equalibristics. Only difference is that the groups those elves would form, would be gangs, or groups. Each elf distrusting the other, and somehow trying to sway the group's activities in such a way that would benefit 'their' virtual tribe/their own lonefooted self ... more.
I'm not sure I'm understanding you, Bushranger.
We can still make our own tribe, have vnpc tribe members, and even family-app tribal elves with other players. You just can't have a tribe, and integrate other people into that tribe, because apparently staff don't want families to get too big. Same reason why you can't start a family role-call with more than 4 people in it.
Nobody is saying you can't make a tribal city-elf.
Bushranger: Tribe
is integral to elves. On that I think we are on the same page.
However, elves are
not the only targets of elven loyalty tests, nor are tribeless city-elves the only target for tribeless city elf loyalty tests. There are examples of elves forcing other races through tests of trust (it's in the documentation you referred to, if not explicitly then implicitly by virtue of not saying otherwise).
Also, elves that pass loyalty tests with each other do
not have any natural inclination to join that person's tribe (or have that person join their tribe) when they pass tests of trust. That isn't in the documentation.
So no, what you are saying there doesn't follow.
Quote from: Bushranger on January 03, 2014, 11:54:25 AM
Given that there is no documentation at all about tribes of elves living in Allanak outside of the Labyrinth I would like staff to answer a simple question, yes or no. Are all elves from Allanak proper solitary thieves?
We don't mention every virtual tribe in the documentation. The answer to your question is no.
Quote
That seems to be the message Nyr is broadcasting.
Hopefully I've fixed that!
Quote
No city elf can try to create a tribe in game
No city-elf PC can create a tribe in-game that recruits other PC players into it.
Quotenor can they create some virtual tribe for their background that they belong to.
False.
QuoteEvery city elf not from the Labyrinth is, and will forever be, a tribeless elf reject and since the Jaxa Pah is also indefinitely closed so is every elf in Allanak.
no
Nyr, do you foresee ways for us to arrange family roles with a little more ease? Maybe without using the GDB at all, like, just submitting a special app for "the next elven PC family that forms in Allanak?" Then, when four people have submitted special apps like that, contact them all and say, "Okay, your family has been formed. The other players are a (age/sex age/sex age/sex,) we think the most sensical role for you is as (father/mother/son/daughter/brother/sister) based on the age makeup, do you agree to this and if so, go ahead and roll it up and we'll send more info in game?
Quote from: Nyr on January 03, 2014, 12:24:33 PM
We don't mention every virtual tribe in the documentation. The answer to your question is no.
Quote
That seems to be the message Nyr is broadcasting.
Hopefully I've fixed that!
Quote
No city elf can try to create a tribe in game
No city-elf PC can create a tribe in-game that recruits other PC players into it.
Quotenor can they create some virtual tribe for their background that they belong to.
False.
QuoteEvery city elf not from the Labyrinth is, and will forever be, a tribeless elf reject and since the Jaxa Pah is also indefinitely closed so is every elf in Allanak.
no
So City Elves can create virtual background tribes but Desert Elves can not and must belong to one of the listed tribes?
Quote from: Shalooonsh on June 02, 2009, 04:43:46 PM
Quote from: jcljules on May 30, 2009, 10:20:13 AM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on May 26, 2009, 11:42:19 PM
Quote from: jcljules on May 26, 2009, 09:10:23 PM
Quote from: Shalooonsh on May 26, 2009, 07:19:29 PM
...
Rinthi city elf tribes at this time are closed, and will likely remain so for good reason. We do highly endorse the use of vtribes to help flesh out the world, however. Vtribes, both c-and-d-elf have been long used to improve the atmosphere of the game.
...
I was under the impression that you couldn't create d-elf v-tribes--has that changed?
Sorry, this was a mis-statement by myself. There are v-tribes in place which can be used, for example, Sand Jakhals and Seven Spears. You can not, however, make up "Delerak's Elf Tribe Of Uber Doom" which hates all templars, goes into a blood rage at the sight of silk, and worships the void, fire, and wind.
This restriction is in place to prevent a sudden cropping of 200 desert elf vtribes which leave the built and steady real tribes empty of membership because people have a concept that just slightly doesn't fit.
...so it -is- possible to play in existing v-tribes? Such as the Seven Spears or Sand Jakhals?
If you notify and clear it with desert elf staff first, yes, it would be fine. If not, then no.
I did a quick search and it was posts like this that led me to believe that players creating virtual tribes was forbidden and that documented virtual tribes were to be created. If this is only for desert elves and city elves are allowed to create their own virtual tribes then some of the problems I've seen about city elves being broken is wrong. Just make sure these tribes are quiet and will not, or can not, stand up for any of their members who get into trouble. Got it.
Also, I'd like to point that two elves of different affiliation making friends and passing each others loyalty tests with flying colors should be kind of rare and unexpected. It would almost suggest they were kind of crappy elves, when it came to the whole treachery, thievery, and paranoia thing. I think prohibiting elves from banding together into ad hoc tribes is good because it will keep them properly at arm's length for longer, which they should be anyway, being paranoid, lying, treacherous elves.
After all, elves know about loyalty tests. (Digression, as I'm not sure this is true. Much like dwarves and focuses, to what degree are loyalty tests something that an elf consciously attends to, as opposed to mere instinct?) How can an elf know that the other elf didn't suspect a loyalty test and pass intentionally? They would surely suspect it. Maybe, to an elf, another elf would only truly pass a loyalty test by just stealing or taking advantage a little bit, implying that the elf still has healthy elfly instincts, but doesn't want to ruin them, because they are developing some loyalty.
Quote from: Harmless on January 03, 2014, 12:37:54 PM
Nyr, do you foresee ways for us to arrange family roles with a little more ease? Maybe without using the GDB at all, like, just submitting a special app for "the next elven PC family that forms in Allanak?" Then, when four people have submitted special apps like that, contact them all and say, "Okay, your family has been formed. The other players are a (age/sex age/sex age/sex,) we think the most sensical role for you is as (father/mother/son/daughter/brother/sister) based on the age makeup, do you agree to this and if so, go ahead and roll it up and we'll send more info in game?
More ease for players != more ease for staff. Really, if you want to play in an elven PC family but don't have enough interest to actually start it yourself, put in an app for an elven tribe that is already supported.
Quote from: Bushranger on January 03, 2014, 03:05:46 PM
So City Elves can create virtual background tribes but Desert Elves can not and must belong to one of the listed tribes?
Yes. I think that this has been the case since about 2009 or so, maybe a little later than that. You can't make a desert elf that isn't part of one of the desert elf tribes, and the only desert elf tribes allowed are the ones listed (per the page on that).
Quote
I did a quick search and it was posts like this that led me to believe that players creating virtual tribes was forbidden and that documented virtual tribes were to be created.
That's from 2009, so no, it is not accurate anymore.
QuoteIf this is only for desert elves and city elves are allowed to create their own virtual tribes then some of the problems I've seen about city elves being broken is wrong.
Desert elves have to play in one of the two open desert elf tribes. This has been the case for years.
QuoteJust make sure these tribes are quiet and will not, or can not, stand up for any of their members who get into trouble. Got it.
...what?
It seems to me at times that for all practical purposes your vNPC Nakki city-elf tribe is useless, and little more than ornamentation for a race that is supposed to be city bound (yet somehow still "nomadic"), unable to use any form of transportation aside from pack beasts (which you cannot lead more than one of because, heh, ride skill), cannot play rangers (city bound, haha, even though theoretically with the correct background maybe your vNPC tribe does go out and hunt, just, they watch and laugh as their guide gets munched by scrab/carru/beetles/etc) or form any real bonds with anyone without continuous and increasingly difficult and dangerous tests of loyalty, and have a choice between two evils when it comes to employment. I suppose it is fun to play, and I suppose it is doable, but on the other hand, PC interaction wise, it's lonely and awful for something that's supposed to be not like playing a breed, so there's really very little incentive for many people to even experiment with the idea.
That said, I fully intend to try it again sometime in the future, just not anytime soon. Need to recharge my batteries for something that will likely be a taxing experience.
Nah bro, people hire breeds!
They're less lonely to play than PC neckers are!
Quote from: HavokBlue on January 03, 2014, 06:19:31 PM
Nah bro, people hire breeds!
They're less lonely to play than PC neckers are!
dat ride skill tho brah
Quote from: Nyr on January 03, 2014, 04:58:17 PM
Quote from: Bushranger on January 03, 2014, 03:05:46 PM
So City Elves can create virtual background tribes but Desert Elves can not and must belong to one of the listed tribes?
Yes. I think that this has been the case since about 2009 or so, maybe a little later than that. You can't make a desert elf that isn't part of one of the desert elf tribes, and the only desert elf tribes allowed are the ones listed (per the page on that).
QuoteJust make sure these tribes are quiet and will not, or can not, stand up for any of their members who get into trouble. Got it.
...what?
2009 was the last time I played an elf and scraped the forums for information about them so yes the information I'd been working on is now outdated.
Quote from:
It is OK to send in a role application request for permission to play a family with other PCs, wherein that family has a virtual tribal background which will remain virtual and flavor-ific (as opposed to coded and/or with intent to use the tribal background as a base of power in the gameworld). It is not OK to recruit other PCs post-creation into a "tribe" in game, because it makes no sense; tribes in Zalanthas are groups of humanoids which are of the same race, all directly related by blood, and have a common survival purpose and inherited culture.
Talia wrote that in a Ask the Staff (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,39989.msg564189.html#msg564189) reply and it seems to make the most sense given that virtual tribes can be created by players of city elves. The Tribe is for flavouring the background of a PC (or family of PCs) but not for bailing out a PC if they get into trouble. This is opposed to Jaxa Pah or Akai Sjir who have more of a presence (and staff backing) to support a member in trouble.
Yep. Your virtual tribe is not to be used to bail your ass out...just like virtual sid won't bribe PC templars, virtual and relatively weak background vNPC power has no real influence on the gameworld.
Quote from: Nyr on January 03, 2014, 11:07:38 PM
Yep. Your virtual tribe is not to be used to bail your ass out...just like virtual sid won't bribe PC templars, virtual and relatively weak background vNPC power has no real influence on the gameworld.
But there are ways to actually obtain sid, and then use it to bail yourself out. A virtual elven tribe is for all practical intents and purposes useless. It doesn't provide you protection, it doesn't provide you a (however meager) support network, and it doesn't provide you with any inner-tribe roleplay.
Right. Like many areas of the game, virtual resources exist that may be attainable in solid and influential ways by PC action. One example I used was obsidian. You can have that. However, you can't bribe someone with virtual obsidian. You have to have the real stuff.
The same goes for virtual tribes. Your virtual tribe is fairly inconsequential. If you want your character's tribal background to be one of significance, it will need to be as part of a tribe that is coded that has both virtual and actual PC-tangible and PC-affecting resources. There are limits to what you can virtually assume.
Not being able to use your "background tribe" to declare war on someone is not discriminatory against RP opportunities. For starters, you have options (limited though they may be at times) to play as part of an established tribe that has that kind of influence and power, such that if may be. However, you can't just arbitrarily decide that you have some kind of virtual power with any PC that otherwise doesn't have it. It falls in line with our approach to power-emoting vNPCs--you can't decide you have some awesome support without that actual support being there.
The problem is that people still just pretend that these resources don't exist. Much like they pretend there aren't any human tribes in the tablelands or that they pretend your virtual family isn't going to come looking when you get pk'd.
When you pick a fight with elf x, you're still picking a fight with tribe x. Just nobody cares because everyone knows that tribe is virtual.
I don't think that's a problem. OR at least no different from any other "virtual" problem that arises.
It's not a problem that is easily or is even able to be fixed. Doesn't mean it isn't a problem and isn't frustrating.
For perspective, elves are the shitkicked dogs. But half-elves aren't for some reason.
This may be a dumb question now, but I still don't understand this: Why can't a player put out a role call for a four-member family of a virtual Fuckwood tribe (with the understanding between players and staff that said family won't bring in new members to the tribe)?
Playing broken, tribeless elves gets old after a while. This way us pathetic elf fetishists will have something interesting to do.
Quote from: spicemustflow on January 04, 2014, 03:43:53 AM
This may be a dumb question now, but I still don't understand this: Why can't a player put out a role call for a four-member family of a virtual Fuckwood tribe (with the understanding between players and staff that said family won't bring in new members to the tribe)?
Playing broken, tribeless elves gets old after a while. This way us pathetic elf fetishists will have something interesting to do.
They can, it's just every member of the family needs to be blood related.
So your tribe cannot protect you from harm. So what? Modify your character's reasoning then. Instead of, "My tribe is virtual, so I cant act like an ass and expect people not to rip me a new one, since they dont fear my tribe and all." Think, "I cant act like an ass. This will provoke them. If they're stronger then me, it might provoke my kin to respond and in the end endanger my entire tribe. If they are weaker then me, it will make them try to hurt me, by hurting one of my kin instead." Not only is your virtual tribe not an asset for you, it is actually a burden. You made a big score? Harh, actually, you're probably oughta junk two thirds of it and spread it amidst your kin. Lots of food in your bags? Sorry, you've got your kin to feed. Personally? I love the crap out of that.
It's a good question though. What if someone runs a role call for a 4 member family of celves and as a biography, make them all part of one singular tribe. By all logic, if they are family, they 'are' of the same tribe if they're celf.
PS: Tribes are for the most part consists of large families. So in a way, they 'are' all blood related, or close to it.
Well no, they can't. You can app an elven family, and your elven family can join or even create the Fuckwood Hunting Crew, but you can't call yourselves or create the Fuckwood Tribe, because of entirely OOC reasons, if I'm understanding correctly.
Interesting. I would truly appreciate Staff confirmation on that. Unless it's been already given somewhere? It is perfectly possible for a 'singular' celf to create a virtual tribe. He can give them a name, backstory, the works. I know, I've done it myself and seen it done many a time. Granted, that tribe will 'never' adopt any other member, but that's hardly relevant.
Now, would it be possible to create a family of four celves, who by definition (if they're family and all), are part of the 'same' virtual tribe. They should be able to give it a name, a backstory, the works. Just never be able to adopt any new members into it and it will 'never' increase in size, except virtually. Only decrease, when one of these family member PC kicks the bucket.
Would a staffer be able to confirm that this will not be allowed?
Quote from: bcw81 on January 04, 2014, 04:01:34 AM
Quote from: spicemustflow on January 04, 2014, 03:43:53 AM
This may be a dumb question now, but I still don't understand this: Why can't a player put out a role call for a four-member family of a virtual Fuckwood tribe (with the understanding between players and staff that said family won't bring in new members to the tribe)?
Playing broken, tribeless elves gets old after a while. This way us pathetic elf fetishists will have something interesting to do.
They can, it's just every member of the family needs to be blood related.
But you can't say "we're Fuckwoods" and tattoo ancient Fuckwood marks on your face. In other words, you have to present yourself as a member of a small family, not a part of something larger. Even though that something may be codedly irrelevant.
edit: sorry for the noise, I should have checked if someone posted the same shit before I did
How about let all those poor, tribeless nakki city elves join the militia?
That would be the worst possible solution for everyone
Quote from: SmashedTregil on January 04, 2014, 04:06:34 AM
So your tribe cannot protect you from harm. So what? Modify your character's reasoning then. Instead of, "My tribe is virtual, so I cant act like an ass and expect people not to rip me a new one, since they dont fear my tribe and all." Think, "I cant act like an ass. This will provoke them. If they're stronger then me, it might provoke my kin to respond and in the end endanger my entire tribe. If they are weaker then me, it will make them try to hurt me, by hurting one of my kin instead." Not only is your virtual tribe not an asset for you, it is actually a burden. You made a big score? Harh, actually, you're probably oughta junk two thirds of it and spread it amidst your kin. Lots of food in your bags? Sorry, you've got your kin to feed. Personally? I love the crap out of that.
This is very true! If anything, your small virtual tribes are less likely to help "bail you out" than anybody. They are small and just want to live, like most people on Earth do. They have no interest in your plots. If you had stayed a vNPC like them, none of this kankshit would ever have happened!
I guess the two archetypes for vNPC tribe are "estranged" or "died off." In the estranged case, the PC elf is playing the "black sheep" of that vNPC tribe, off to do something that they didn't agree with and so will have nothing to do with.
I think next time I roll a celf PC it'll be more along the lines of above, if I decide to have a virtual tribe. Estranged, parted ways.
Edited to add: Nyr, I totally se your point about that causing more work for staff. Thanks for answering!
Also, if it helps anyone deal with the oddity of not being able to refer to your c-elf family role group as a 'tribe' - consider that when adapting to a city environment, elves, like humans (but perhaps to a lesser extent) will likely reject the trappings of the 'wastes' - as tribals, desert-dwellers, barbarians and savages are the lesser compared to the civilised city dweller.
In that respect it's not hard to imagine many of the fractured, tiny tribes that exist in cities to use the more socially acceptable term 'family' when referring to the cluster of individuals that their elven mindset identifies as 'tribe'.
SmashedTregil's comment about the pressures and RP hooks that come with a virtual tribe is dead on - a virtual tribe is a great opportunity to drive your RP and give your PC motivation. Guess who feeds you during the time your offline? Guess who houses you and takes care of you when offline? Obviously this isn't the same as having PC tribemates, a cool tribe quit room and NPCs, but a virtual tribe can be as big a part of your character's background as a coded one - it's just unlikely that your virtual tribe will ever come to the fore of your PC's story.
Also, regarding elven tests of trust - these aren't a concious thing. Elves aren't consciously aware of the process beyond how we, as humans (most of us), are aware of the process of learning to trust someone. Interpret that statement as you wish. The process outlined in the elven RP docs is an outline that you can have your elf PC follow as unconsciously (I've just grown to trust this guy!) or as consciously (Can I trust this guy?) as you want - with as much paranoia and consideration as befits your elf as an individual.
Quote from: Rathustra on January 04, 2014, 11:26:59 AM
Also, if it helps anyone deal with the oddity of not being able to refer to your c-elf family role group as a 'tribe' - consider that when adapting to a city environment, elves, like humans (but perhaps to a lesser extent) will likely reject the trappings of the 'wastes' - as tribals, desert-dwellers, barbarians and savages are the lesser compared to the civilised city dweller.
This seems to collide head-on with the City Elf Docs where "tribe is key. (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elf%20Roleplay) It doesn't sound like something Elves, who are said to be inordinately proud of their heritage, are going to toss aside. Especially if it's humans who're saying tribals, desert-dwellers, barbarians and savages are lesser.
Quote from: Rathustra on January 04, 2014, 11:26:59 AM
In that respect it's not hard to imagine many of the fractured, tiny tribes that exist in cities to use the more socially acceptable term 'family' when referring to the cluster of individuals that their elven mindset identifies as 'tribe'.
I don't have any objections to city elf tribes being small. I do object to how all PC celf tribes are doomed to extinction because all PCs are mortal, and IC growth is forbidden by OOC fiat. It's especially galling when the City Elves have seriously limited support for their tribal roleplay, at least in one City State. There's a vacuum in City Elf roleplay, and I think players should be allowed to take a stab at filling it.
Quote from: Rathustra on January 04, 2014, 11:26:59 AM
SmashedTregil's comment about the pressures and RP hooks that come with a virtual tribe is dead on - a virtual tribe is a great opportunity to drive your RP and give your PC motivation. Guess who feeds you during the time your offline? Guess who houses you and takes care of you when offline?
Good to know that the tribal aspect of City Elf roleplay, arguably the most important aspect of their character, is on the same level as "you don't need to emote defecating, your PC does that while he's offline." It's tantamount to excusing a dwarf PC not following his focus as "well, he's doing that virtually." To an elf,
tribe is key, and yet most PC city elves are locked out of actually roleplaying that with other PCs.
Quote from: Rathustra on January 04, 2014, 11:26:59 AMObviously this isn't the same as having PC tribemates, a cool tribe quit room and NPCs, but a virtual tribe can be as big a part of your character's background as a coded one -
Anyone who makes demands on the staff for a clan quit room or NPCs should get the same response as those people who ask for wagons for their indie crews: to be told no, and ignored. I would much rather see city elf clans shrink and grow based on the actions of their PCs, scratching out livings with the multitude of resources we players already have. Want a clan room? Rent an apartment. You all likely have lockpick anyway, so no complaining about lack of rent keys.
Quote from: Rathustra on January 04, 2014, 11:26:59 AMit's just unlikely that your virtual tribe will ever come to the fore of your PC's story.
But why not? Tribe's supposed to be key to City Elves and their character. You wouldn't allow a dwarf player to "follow their focus" virtually, and then forbid them from taking actions to further their focus in game.
The assumed reason for why the humans haven't wiped out the City Elf population (who all seem to be thieves, hucksters, and don't even make very good slaves) is because their tribal structures temper race hatred with fear of retaliation. City Elf PCs, whether they have a virtual tribe or are just a tribeless wanderer, rarely get any benefit of this. City Elf PCs have limited opportunity to build an in-game support network, get virtually no credit for their virtual ones from other PCs, and are consequentially being shoe-horned into the role of worthless tribeless jackoff.
There's no conflict there - tribe is key. But tribe is also just a word. Don't confuse a mindset with the way that the mindset is expressed - just because an elf calls his 'tribe' family or gang, or clutch or whatever else - it doesn't mean that his attitudes to those he identifies as members of that group aren't the same.
Also, people are really, really good at finding ways to distinguish themselves from others. Please also don't take my suggestion of a way to rationalise an ooc limitation (not being able to call a family a tribe) in an IC situation at a blanket statement for c-elves. Not all c-elves are carbon copies, nor do they all think the same way - a tribe isn't just some arbitrary distinction, it's also a culture which is shaped by its environment. But that's enough on that - we could fill an entire thread about the different ways in which elven mentality could be bent!
A lot of human families are doomed to extinction when a human PC dies. Many of these families can easily be as large as a c-elf 'tribe' - heck, virtual human and dwarven desert tribes are wiped out every time someone with subguild nomad gets eaten by a baltha. I don't see why elven tribes are exceptions to this rule - a rule that exists for another reason not related to c-elves in particular.
I'm not sure there is a vacuum - when I started playing Armageddon there were no active, coded c-elf tribes. People still played/play c-elves. A lot of the problems that keep cropping up in these threads stem from people using their OOC knowledge (no reprisals, c-elves have no backup, a crime involving a c-elf is going to be pinned on the only active c-elf pc in a given city) for IC leverage. That sucks. Please don't do that. I like city elves though - the only reason I am on staff today is because of my play as a c-elf, so I'm pretty indebted to them. I'd like to do more with them, but I'm busy at the moment.
I don't think a c-elf's tribe (family?) is quite the crux of them as characters as you make out with your defecation comment - saying that the tribal inter-action itself is them most important part of playing a c-elf. That's like saying that having a focus is the most important part of playing a dwarf. It isn't - it's pursuing that focus and having that mental slant towards pursuing it without compromise. With an elf tribal roleplay is important because of the way it makes your elf behave IC - not trusting outsiders, considering your family's well being, anxiety over being apart from them, etc. It's like an iceberg (if you'll forgive the shitty analogy) - the virtual element is huge and that produces the stuff you see above the water - IC behaviour, which in turn directs your play. As a c-elf with a virtual tribe this means your play is sort of limited with how you give back to your tribe. Yes that sucks. No it is not as big of a deal as it is sometimes made out. Also your comparison to defecation doesn't make much sense - every PC, elf or otherwise, does stuff in their vNPC downtime. You as a player give those actions significance when you step back into PC land. Did your PC take a massive shit while he was an NPC that ruptured one of his piles and means he's limping for the rest of the IG week? Ok that's a big deal. Suddenly taking a shit is a big deal.
That whole last paragraph is entirely my own opinion. I can't talk with authority on this matter because everything to do with c-elves that is officially sanctioned by staff is on the website.
I'm not sure what you're getting at with regards to clan quit rooms. But I'm pretty sure we agree. Along with c-elves I loved the Benjari - my favourite human PC besides my AoD private was a Benjari. I think this is the right thing to say here.
Why not?
Because of reasons not directly related to c-elves at all. Even without the limitations that family applications impose I don't think I'd want players growing their virtual tribes IG though. This is entirely personal and due to personal experiences while acting as an imm for indies. I would certainly have no problems in letting people do so if the rules were different, however.
I don't disagree that c-elves are under-represented and get a poor rep. Personally though - I've always quite liked being the tribal jerkoff.
Amusingly, I have personally used a simple trick when I had to speak about my virtual tribe. Fact of the matter, is that it may very easily be "NOT" in tribe's best interests for you to yap about it. The moment you say you to belong to such and such tribe, suddenly every single one of your deeds and words affects your tribe. You may do your thing and move on, and the consequences will catch up to someone 'else' of your tribe.
In other words. If you're going to start talking about your tribe to someone. Better be sure that you trust them enough to confide something so serious, as the name, origin, location, and traditions of your tribe. Because all of that information, can be used against them.
Dont be in a hurry to spill out all that backstory you've come up with that fleshes out your virtual tribe. Share it sparingly, to make it a real sign of trust and preference.
Then there is no advantage to playing a city elf, besides a few minor stat bonuses, the best of which mundanes without an extended subguild can't even make use of because crippled archery (no ranger, though you can special app a time-sensitive outdoorsman), crippled strength, no riding, no hopping on a wagon, skimmer, or airship, crippled social skills because even the lowliest breed is better off, and crippled roleplay because it takes so long to make friends and people die in waves. Great. Can't wait to try another one.
Oh, master pickpocket or burglar, but think something less thiefy.
Ok, I'm going to be the change next time around, and no one is going to stop me, and I'm going to involve my vNPCs in odd and funny ways, and I'm going to have fun doing it. There are ways to do this. I encourage all to join the city elf movement.
All without a family app. This is my new challenge to myself. Let all us single elf tribes have fun trying to kill eachother, amidst thoroughly confused roundears.
Thanks for providing direction when I'd suddenly thought I'd lost all of it.
I'm not spec apping a family that could be done in in seconds, when I could get myself done in in half the time (my one elf lived a bit).
(I'm serious, this sounds fun ;))
Honestly unless you plan on joining the Byn, there's no reason to play a southern city elf unless you like suffering.
This could change in the future with a revamp of the Jaxa, but I think you can get a similar but more enjoyable experience with a breed in the meantime, AND you will have clan options.
Quote from: HavokBlue on January 05, 2014, 03:46:26 AM
Honestly unless you plan on joining the Byn, there's no reason to play a southern city elf unless you like suffering.
This could change in the future with a revamp of the Jaxa, but I think you can get a similar but more enjoyable experience with a breed in the meantime, AND you will have clan options.
Stop playing this... WE WILL RULE YOU! YEAH!
No seriously, elves unite! Fight back! But do it smart...
sorry, can't unite, no tribes