Armageddon General Discussion Board

Make running a racial skill for elves. D-elves get it at master at chargen. C-elves, if they run in the desert a lot for whatever reason, would actually be able to be cocky about running and actually be able to do it if they run enough,

This would fix so many things and ensure that I actually play elves.

BUT METEKILLOT THE ELVES WILL TAKE OVER EVERYTHING!!1!

I really liked this idea before and I still like it, and humans should get it too at a lower cap, and so on and so fourth!! and maybe there could be a "fitness" skill that functions like a generalized, small boost to strength and endurance.

Let's focus on elves for now.

... ....  :'(

Sarcasm aside, I agree elves need boosting.

Quote from: MeTekillot on February 09, 2015, 01:12:07 PM
Make running a racial skill for elves. D-elves get it at master at chargen. C-elves, if they run in the desert a lot for whatever reason, would actually be able to be cocky about running and actually be able to do it if they run enough,

This would be the most elegant solution, but it isn't 100% necessary to fix the problem.  C-elves could just be given something that's half as a effective as desert-elf running and call it a day, and it'd be a marked improvement over the current situation.

I tentatively agree that city elves could probably use a little something.

Not to get too deep into mechanics, but if you look back over the gdb you can see a number of changes that adversely affect C-elfs (clan closures, wisdom nerf, perceived nerf of agility in combat/perceived bolstering of strength in combat).  But there are also some that benefit them, sometimes implicitly (added functionality to sleight of hand where agility probably plays a role; changes to the steal code; elven family rolecalls sanctioned).

I guesstimate the net effect is that they are less codedly powerful than they were in years past.  Codedly unpowerful to the extent that this second-most-populous-race is far more rarely played than it once was.

But I don't think desert running enhancements are the key.  Making long-lived city-elves better approximations of desert elves would serve to displace them from their city niche (serving as a a reviled underclass that helps to underscore the notions of racial tension and poverty inside Zalanthan settlements).  I think that niche is essential to the game, and pseudo desert elves don't fill it as well.

So, if anything, I think it would be a better change to give them something that added depth to their niche in the city.  Giving them some appropriate clans to join would probably help, but since we're talking about a coded change:

Make them excellent climbers (this seems really appropriate, to me - they have exemplary physical builds for climbing, with light frames and long arms).  Then build on this and give them a "thief's highway" (rooftop network) they can travel on that nobody else can, maybe with jumps that only city-elves can make, etc.

At this point we're more likely to just get rid of them altogether than get any direct changes enacted for their benefit.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 09, 2015, 05:54:58 PM
At this point we're more likely to just get rid of them altogether than get any direct changes enacted for their benefit.

We keep approving those dwarves with the focus to wipe out all elves, but somehow it's not working out like we'd hoped :(

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 09, 2015, 05:54:58 PM
At this point we're more likely to just get rid of them altogether than get any direct changes enacted for their benefit.

I agree with whoever above: if you give c-elves desert running, we won't have city elves any more.  As it stands, most city elves move to red storm anyway, because let's be honest about what interaction options those two city elves have in Nak and that one city elf has up in Tuluk.

I'm late to the party, but here's a hunch about the backstory: at some point elves were way more codedly powerful than humans (maybe even now they still are) and this caused some twink griefing or at least made it too easy to twink grief.  Staff had a look, and have slowly been rolling back c-elves at least to make them less twink-griefalicious.  However, now c-elves are just miserable little runts who only masochists play solo RP with for flavor.

If that's even close to the ballpark, what about this to get more c-elves in game (because I love the flavor of scummy c-elves): make them codedly as powerful or even weaker than humans on all levels and give them a clan (make all PC c-elves part of the same tribe).

Family role calls for city elves could make them a lot more fun...as long as those family members stick around.

Also, to be clear, I'm not saying give city elves full on desert elf running.  Give them some weaker, bastardized version of it, if they train for it.

I don't think they'd turn into desert elves, considering they get like, on average, 60-100 less stamina points than d-elves. I may be wrong, but d-elves also get pretty solid stamina regen in the deserts that other races don't get.

Not to mention that delves just won't fricken lose stamina whilst strolling about outside.

Quote from: nauta on February 09, 2015, 06:05:22 PM
give them a clan (make all PC c-elves part of the same tribe).

Dude yes

I feel like city elves already get what they need from city running, they just need more reasons to avoid leaving the gates. But desert running at some level sounds like fun.

City Elves                                                            (Races)

   Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas.


a dwarf is here
a dwarf is here
a hg is here
a hg is here
a dwarf is here
a human is here
a human is here
a half elf is here

You think:
"Bullshit."


Takes a special type of player to make a c-elf, unfortunately those players are few and far between. Players that REALLY get elves always bring a lot of interesting shit to the table, wish there was a reason to be more into making one. =(

If MUDding did not attract masochists in general, I don't think there'd be celves at all, no.

Quote from: Majikal on February 09, 2015, 09:01:32 PM
   Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas.

...

You think:
"Bullshit."

Maybe they're just making use of max hide and sneak?

You know the riding skill, charge and trample are such powerful abilities so I'm not really sure why I would take the ability to run vs the ability to ride but I would. The idea of running wild and free, and not be restricted like d-elves to one isolated location is tempting.

I wouldn't mind c-elves getting a decent ability to run (or maybe just walk) in the wilderness, not be faster at moving from room to room than running beetles but keep up at least with walking one. However it should come with the very strict restriction, that they had absolutely no ability to sneak or hide in the desert. Increasing the penalties for them using city sneak and hide as well. They would also not be allowed to pick any subguild and/or extended subguild that would give them either of those abilities.  

At the end of the day though I still feel c-elves need to be completely re-conned though, fit them back into society and clans much like dwarves and half-elves.

Why?

Celf rangers are already disallowed, so your fears of celves skulking about in the wilderness with their paltry movement points are already mostly applicable. They could get subg_outdoorsman or something similar I guess, but I doubt staff are going to allow such a combination, too.

That is such a weird thing to be afraid of.

I like the idea of running becoming a skill in general. More so for Delves.

I think any combination of wilderness hide/sneak +running ability is powerful. I believe too powerful for a 0-karma class.

When a human/dwarf/half-elf use wilderness sneak/hide, they often are risking leaving their mounts vulnerable for anyone to see or stumble on to. Otherwise if they are on foot, everyone has heavy movement penalties, and generally getting caught resting or in a tent without a mount or being in running distance of the city is probably going to get you killed. That is basically the drawback of 0-karma classes trying to sneak/hide in lawless wilderness areas. I suppose it is currently great if you just want to harass new characters at the salt flats or somewhere close to the city, kinda lame to do but to each their own.


Maybe that is just my opinion but I just thinking staff must have their reasons as to why d-elves are so completely restricted in terms of where they can travel, so much so that I can't remember the last d-elf PC I saw after the red fangs events. Maybe I just don't spend enough time at Luirs.

C-elves should at least be able to run in the city without losing stamina.

They pretty much can. Some roads are strange, but for the most part an elf will always be able to out-run anything else in the city. Add in their speed and it's even more in their favor.


I don't think C-elves need any help with travel outside the gates, that doesn't seem natural to me. They need maxed steal. You know, because their entire culture is based around theft. They need a clan. You know, because their entire culture is based around tribalism.

That might be true in Allanak (I wouldn't know).  But I played a city elf in Tuluk less than a year ago, and most of the places I ran that weren't indoors rooms sapped 2 or 3 stamina per room.

Maybe I was comparing an elf in one sort of room, to a human in another sort of room. Just did some running and was only losing 1 stamina in the area I tested... On a non-elf character. So yeah, maybe it's not like I thought it was.

So you tellin' me. . . city elves can't even run better. . . in the city?

One time I brought spice by accident into Allanak and spamwalked for a while before my elf realized that soldiers had been chasing me due to the weird scroll outline from previous rooms.

I think that's just cause tall+ high agility. Which is. . . okay, I guess.

it has always seemed really weird to me that c-elves get this incredible stamina when running in crowded city streets, but then suddenly become absurdly wimpy and can't make it to the next village over without trying to rest (and let's face it, with their endurance, they can't recover stamina in the wilderness without a tent), it just makes no sense. How is moving in the absurd Zalanthan heat in a city THAT different from moving in the absurd Zalanthan heat out in the wastes? Most of them are even flat -- if it's FLAT terrain that matters, why can't c-elves jog all they want in the salt flats? At least then they've have an advantage SOMEWHERE.

In the end it all just feels like an artifact of ancient coding, when c-elves were (let's face it) only really thought out as far as their tribes went, and now that there aren't any coded, staff-supported c-elf tribes... things just don't really feel good for them.

So yeah, I totally support them getting something to more realistically reflect their running endurance, something exactly in between desert elf level (which is maybe OP) and what other races get in the wastes would be fine -- 2-3 stamina loss per room, 4-5 in hard to traverse areas such as rocky cliffs.

I don't think the reasons desert elves are restricted to a small area have anything to do with how well they run or hide or sneak.

I don't think giving city elves a degree of wilderness running or the ranger class would break anything.

I don't think turning running into a skill solves a whole lot besides letting city-elves eventually become somewhat competent at travel, because the travel issue is only one part of the vast problem of city elves as playable characters.


Desert elves need more, or different playable tribes. Compounded by the fact that one d-elf tribe literally cannot leave the Tablelands except in extreme circumstances, the only time you're likely to even encounter one of these elves is when they want to buy a 5000 coin bow or climbing spikes. The odds of encountering a PC desert elf in the desert are slim to none.

City elves need more clan options, and some sort of noticeable coded benefit to counter the absolutely massive stigma and isolation they face in-game (if not in the virtual world).

Not really seeing a whole lot of naysaying from the playerbase on this idea. Most people seem to support it, hopefully it gains some traction.


Personally just setting them up with d-elf run wouldn't be OP. They'd still be chillin around 100stam with shittier strength for gear than most d-elves, where my last d-elf was rocking a whoppin 240 stam.

okay, so now that I spoke fully in support of the change, and after reading this:

Quote from: Majikal on February 10, 2015, 06:33:37 AM
Not really seeing a whole lot of naysaying from the playerbase on this idea. Most people seem to support it, hopefully it gains some traction.

Personally just setting them up with d-elf run wouldn't be OP. They'd still be chillin around 100stam with shittier strength for gear than most d-elves, where my last d-elf was rocking a whoppin 240 stam.

I am going to play devil's advocate.

Quote from: help_sandcloth
Sandcloth
(Fabrics)
Sandcloth, a tightwoven but light fabric, is one of the staples of Zalanthan wear. It is produced from a variety of fibers, the name being attached to the type of weave, rather than its origin. Because it is lightweight, cheap, and durable, as well as resisting the blowing sand, many travellers favor attire made of this fabric.

Quote from: help_tent
Tent
(Miscellaneous)
Tents are used by desert wanderers to provide some measure of protection from the elements during their travels.

So the issue is that c-elves can't wander and travel the desert effectively? The combination of sandcloth and tents, two commonly used items by travellers, DO take a HUGE bite out of the problem, codedly. Plus walking, not running -- and taking note of the weather, resting in the right places, and avoiding dangers with the careful application of resting and rapid walking when needed. I have played at least a few long-lived tribeless c-elves that had the benefit of other tribeless/family role c-elf mentors to teach them ICly how to do these things, and it was like a revelation. I think since then I much more greatly enjoy playing c-elves, though coming up with a concept that has any sort of IC reason to WANT to go outside of the gates is rare and or difficult. Usually, it's for nefarious, i.e. smuggling activities, and when you realize how much care and planning has to go into getting a group of c-elves from one city to the other, you ask yourself why you didn't just make a human or half-elf or dwarf or half-giant smuggler instead -- but it was GREAT fun!! I assure ya'll.

I'm just naysaying for the sake of richer discussion; I still personally feel c-elves need something more, and that the lengths they have to endure to accomplish basic travelling are too much. I'd love if people poked at my argument above, but it all felt nicely IC, it wasn't a huge coded leap, and it still felt very elfy, especially since I was doing it in the company of other c-elves who I thought were much better at RPing c-elves than me.

Just to expand: the "system" of using sandcloth and a tent is "balanced." The tent burdens you -- the sandcloth fails to armor you. That is as it should be. City elves are NOT supposed to be able to do everything other races can do in the wastes. they are supposed to stay in cities. However, city elves are documented travellers -- from city to city. They get some huge benefits from using sandcloth and tents -- to the tune of a maximum stamina in the 160-180 range without even trying that hard -- and we didn't even start discussing spice. But those benefits mean you're unarmored and burdened, so you're not going to win at fights. So avoid them! City elves are great at escaping things usually, so that makes up for it. Basically, it works for what it's supposed to be, which is that city elves stick to their cities and maybe city-hop when compelled to, either by outside forces or their internal urge to wander from their ancestry in common with desert elves. But they are not supposed to turn into hunters and traders and wanderers all in one, because that would just make them walking humans.

I must be wearing the wrong gear if you'regetting 80 extra stam lpoints and I'm only getting like,35, tops

Quote from: MeTekillot on February 10, 2015, 12:57:52 PM
I must be wearing the wrong gear if you'regetting 80 extra stam lpoints and I'm only getting like,35, tops

This is a combination of insane trial and error (buy all the turbans, tailor the ones that don't fit you, and then try them all on), looking at what other people are wearing, and luck.  Something I "invested" in while playing offpeak in Red Storm once.  It feels metagamey, and it is.  But if you're a city elf warrior, you're probably going to want those extra bits of movement so you can kick the odd scrab without jeopardizing your ability to return home.


Off on a tangent: one thing I noticed when I played a city elf (the useless shit) is that you're forced to constantly negotiate with little idiosyncrasies in the game, because you're an edge case.  You're constantly accommodating the quirks of the encumbrance code (hey my encumbrance is lighter if I take this thing out of my backpack and carry it in my inventory), for example...

My general feeling about city elves is that they aren't thoroughly "playtested" the way humans are.  I understand the staff have a dozen other things on their plate and have been good to me in the past when they saw something amiss (thanks again Welda!)...

But you have things like the roads in Tuluk costing stamina to run in with a city elf (don't know if this has been fixed), items with idiosyncratic weights that really only affect people at the lowest tiers of strength (mugs and bottles low-strength city elves can't hold even when empty; an absolute dearth of shield and bow items combined with the fact that shields can get heavier after you repair them, etc.); the fact that the 'directions' command didn't work in their Allanaki neighborhood until relatively recently; vendors in the 'rinth that won't deal with anyone because they only deal with clanned city elves, etc.

Some of these are absolutely trivial issues to play around, and staff time is probably [better] invested elsewhere, but I think they could use a bit of love in the long term.

Quote from: MeTekillot on February 10, 2015, 12:57:52 PM
I must be wearing the wrong gear if you'regetting 80 extra stam lpoints and I'm only getting like,35, tops

you are. Simply put, go with the finest maker of desert wear, Kurac, and you will not be let down. Also, I was thinking more like 60 extra stamina. That is totally doable if you are thorough and cover everything with sandcloth. Really. Look:

Kuraci cloak: 10-15
Kuraci torso, leg, arm wear: (5-10)+(5-10)+(5-10) = 15-30
Appropriate headwear to shield the sun (surmac): 10
Additionals: gloves, ankle wraps, neck wrap to keep neck cool = 2+4+5 = 9
Sturdy boots: 10-15
Total boost: 50 moves if you get it all from NPCs, 75 if you pay for the best gear, which a PC merchant can help you with.

It isn't metagamey, it is IC. Kurac makes good desert wear... Common knowlege.

I'm okay with the original idea.  Kinda.

I'm more of the opposing side that I think is pretty unpopular, which is that desert travel itself is overdone.  Caravans with people on foot, with stops for rest?  More common plz.  Harder to get ride, and harder to get it to where entire companies aren't expected to do anything outside the city without their own mount?  MOAR.  LET'S SEE ACTUAL DESERT CARAVANS PEOPLE.

In essence...discussions I have about how the world feels small can be fixed just as easily by making riding less of a given.  City elves, likewise, should still gain the boon of elven stamina, without need of huge benefits to 'offset' the racial disdain for mounts.  I think city elves likely avoid the desert like the plague.  I think more people should think of the desert as a giant death trap.  And I think travel should be a bigger deal, rather than constantly trying to fix a problem that is propagated less by 'elves need more' and more by 'everyone else is just unrealistically savvy and well-equipped for a freakishly common occurrence of long distance travel'.

I think 'nerf everyone else' is a much more unsympathetic, unpopular, difficult and perhaps dangerous position to take, but I'm not necessarily against it.

Quote from: Armaddict on February 10, 2015, 08:09:49 PM
I'm okay with the original idea.  Kinda.

I'm more of the opposing side that I think is pretty unpopular, which is that desert travel itself is overdone.  Caravans with people on foot, with stops for rest?  More common plz.  Harder to get ride, and harder to get it to where entire companies aren't expected to do anything outside the city without their own mount?  MOAR.  LET'S SEE ACTUAL DESERT CARAVANS PEOPLE.

In essence...discussions I have about how the world feels small can be fixed just as easily by making riding less of a given.  City elves, likewise, should still gain the boon of elven stamina, without need of huge benefits to 'offset' the racial disdain for mounts.  I think city elves likely avoid the desert like the plague.  I think more people should think of the desert as a giant death trap.  And I think travel should be a bigger deal, rather than constantly trying to fix a problem that is propagated less by 'elves need more' and more by 'everyone else is just unrealistically savvy and well-equipped for a freakishly common occurrence of long distance travel'.

City-elves need more because they have zero tribal clan options. They two non-tribal clan options, one of which they are utterly useless in and the other in which their usefulness is extremely limited. They need more because you can be the best elven roleplayer in the game, and you will still be met with consistent, ridiculous treatment by other PCs.

Giving city elves a way to run outside the city might make them viable in the two clans they can currently join, but it doesn't do a whole lot for the other issues facing the role.

Relevant past thread circa 2008:

http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,30442.0 (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,30442.0)

On the subject of clans, and more of a counter point to my own idea of elves needing total re-conning then anything else.

I will agree that c-elves need to be made slightly more viable to join clans like kurac and the byn. Perhaps not necessarily a 'running' ability, but walking ability without losing as much stamina would suffice for them to participate in the activities of those two clans. The idea being if they can run in cities without losing stamina, they should be able to at least walk semi-competently in the desert.


However in terms of work and clans. They probably can't be noble or Templar aides, but nether can dwarves or half-elves. Militia is out of the question too. Other than that, they have the same job opportunities my human character has for clans currently, as in convince one of the human PC run organizations that have popped up to hire them (kudos to the people who start these) . OR....start your own and round up the other few elves that are playing.

I really do like the fact that jobs, at least in the south outside PC started groups are no longer as plentiful, at least currently. Not sure if its intentional but kudos to staff none the less, hope it stays that way.

Dude, no. Just no. A celf has no business in the Byn in the first place. He certainly has no business in Kurac, getting shipped off half the known away from his family to go work for Arm's drug cartel. An elf's place is with the people he trusts above all else and inside the place he calls home. Most everyone here appears to agree that celves need some buff at least, but as far as I can see it, there are two ways you can buff them - make them better runners overall and so boost their desert potential, or give them tribes and perks for them to be better inside cities.

I really would prefer seeing more of the second.

joke's on you since kurac and the byn are the only clans they can join

Quote from: Patuk on February 10, 2015, 08:19:30 PM
I think 'nerf everyone else' is a much more unsympathetic, unpopular, difficult and perhaps dangerous position to take, but I'm not necessarily against it.

The basis of my thought process isn't that this is 'nerfing' anyone.  It's making things more in line with how things are actually represented.  Two mortal-enemy cities within 6 hours ride of each other doesn't result in both continuing to exist.  Travel...is a burden.  As things are, it's a burden to some, but has been made easy for most due to the argument of playability, even though playability has nothing to do with it unless you somehow incorporate that travel is supposed to be convenient.  My assertion is that it's not supposed to be, and shouldn't be, and once that is corrected, this particular issue becomes far less of an issue due to things being normalized.

QuoteCity-elves need more because they have zero tribal clan options. They two non-tribal clan options, one of which they are utterly useless in and the other in which their usefulness is extremely limited. They need more because you can be the best elven roleplayer in the game, and you will still be met with consistent, ridiculous treatment by other PCs.

Giving city elves a way to run outside the city might make them viable in the two clans they can currently join, but it doesn't do a whole lot for the other issues facing the role.

Much like magickers, that -is- the role.  It doesn't need fixing, because that's what it is to be elf.  As far as the ridiculous treatment from other PC's, that is.  As stated in the very recent discussion of this, I'm not against the institution of city elf tribes, at all.  But I don't consider them -broken- by any means without it, either, which is the assertion that I literally hear over and over.  If the prospect of being a loner who trusts very few is not a comforting one, and if building relationships slowly over time sounds like a drag...I don't think the role is for you, and that doesn't change due to some people saying 'I'd play this role if the role changed.'

Overall, I think the constant hubbub over city elves is pretty entertaining.  City elves are weak in the desert.  City elves don't have a built in way to circumvent their social issues.  City elves have shitty stats.  And yet I enjoy them precisely because I try not to leave the city at all.  Because they're paranoid, but constantly engaging in unconscious testing to try and form connections.  Because their methodology is, generally, a more mental game than a chop up with swords right and left (even though some elves have done precisely that with incredible efficiency).

But, that's all talking about another issue.

As far as this particular idea, again, I'm not particularly against it, but I don't think it solves the actual issue.  I think it's just a place where the issue is glaringly obvious, and is being mistaken for a racial thing where it's actually a world thing.

Edited to add:  I blah blah blah.  I'm not actually expecting any influence or say so, I'm literally just meandering mentally in a post and invite people to follow along, because I'm about 99.9% certain that whatever is done, if anything is done, it won't come from here.

No, absolutely not, Are you even serious? I genuinely can't tell.

Being a celf is nothing like being a magicker. More clans accept magickers than they do elves(!) Yes, both have low social standing. Big deal. What magickers lack in social clout and appreciation, they make up by sheer coded power and hilariously fun skillsets. Magickers are socially excluded in part because they have a really good offset in turn. Celves do not have such an offset. They have all the negatoves and none of the upsides.

(Yes, celves have two racial skills. Come back to me when you actually do something useful with them and then we'll talk.)

Celves are just a weak race to pick. Disliked by default, no clan options if you actually want to contribute, and after seeing what kind of a mana pool they get I'm not even sure if they get better wisdom than humans do. If I want to play a criminal type, the only coded boon a celf gets is a better agility stat. The human can not die when something looks at him wrong, actually lift up a keg of beer, inftrate in a prestigious organisation, and sit in a bar without being harassed all day.

And still I play them, and love it. But don't for a second imply that shit is working as intended, just fine the way it is, or that it makes sense for every single celf to be tribeless. You're just embarassing yourself.

Step out of the 'play to win' paradigm, and out of the 'win all fights' paradigm, and into a 'play the race' paradigm, and you sound more ludicrous than I do, I think.

Uh. No. He doesn't. I'm honestly not even sure what you're trying to imply with that.

I mean. I play Armageddon to win. I don't want to lose all the time. That's not really fun. This isn't Dwarf Fortress.

Suppose I do as you say. There is no code, it's perfect good fun to never accomplish a goddamn thing because every human can bash your face in, I just want to play the race.

Elves are a tribal people who are good runners.

Celves are neither of those things.

So, your response?

Okay.  Let's break it down.

QuoteWhat magickers lack in social clout and appreciation, they make up by sheer coded power and hilariously fun skillsets.

It's okay that people don't like mages because they're powerful.

QuoteCelves are just a weak race to pick. Disliked by default, no clan options if you actually want to contribute, and after seeing what kind of a mana pool they get I'm not even sure if they get better wisdom than humans do.

Metagame min-max mentality, maximizing stats for efficacy.

QuoteThe human can not die when something looks at him wrong

Hyperbole about low endurance.

Quoteactually lift up a keg of beer

Hyperbole about low strength.

Quoteinftrate in a prestigious organisation,

A weird inferrance about how since elves are not well liked, they require huge boons to be worth playing.




Soooooo.  When I say 'step outside of the play to win' mentality, that's what I'm talking about.  You're trying to balance things out like it's an mmo, where there's discussions about how powerful this combo is and that combo.  As has been stated to you, personally, numerous times...I've literally played dozens of these, played them pretty dangerously, accomplished cool shit, and all through slipping into the mentality rather than what has apparently become the way to determine how races and classes are supposed to behave in the game.

This isn't D&D, this isn't an MMO, I pretty much wrinkle my nose at arguments that infer you're looking for better combat out of a race that is notoriously underhanded, and I get irritated that you all insist that the only way to make a race playable is to make it somehow beneficial to play it.  There is no documentation of elves being supreme badasses.  You're told upfront what you're getting, which is weaker than human, faster than human, more fragile than human, less liked than human, and always looking to get benefit (i.e. If you don't like playing someone who is -dependent- on being calculating, careful, underhanded, manipulative, and with more questionable scruples...then I simply say the elf is not for you).

The balance isn't supposed to be there.  The race gameplay is.  It's -fun-.  Unless you decide to focus on...'shit, my stats don't let me play this like my human ranger, this sucks.'

So, with that in mind, yes.  I think you sound ludicrous whenever this comes up.  I think that rather than insist that because you don't enjoy it, something is wrong, you may want to treat it the same way I treat merchants and non-mundanes...probably cool, but just not my cup of tea.  They don't involve me in the game in the areas I want to be involved in.

So such statements as:

QuoteNo, absolutely not, Are you even serious? I genuinely can't tell.

and

QuoteYou're just embarassing yourself.

I find as personally attacking, in which case I will respond in kind.  You're being stubborn about something that isn't broken, particularly when I have already, numerous times, acceded the point that I, too, am not averse to city elf tribes being implemented in a productive way as per the documentation.  But taking it to the realm of calling them a useless part of the game world due to their coded nature is...counter-intuitive to the point of the design of them working exactly as intended, but being seen in a very one-dimensional field of view.

Well what is your definition of 'cool things' my good man

Having played a number of city-elves, each lasting (except one), at the least, 3 IG years, anywhere from 30-100 days played, I have to say that what Patuk is saying is -not- rediculous. That said, the last time I played a c-elf, I did notice a change in the atmosphere, or maybe it was just my approach. While following the racial documentation will, yes, allow you to survive longer, good luck having friends when everyone dies before you finish testing anyone, or shortly afterwards.

City elves need -something-. Everything is -not- working fine. In fact it's completely broken. Sorry Armaddict, but to me, you do sound ludicrous. I had some fun with my city elves, but mostly it was hell, a long, drawn-out hell, which I felt driven to continue because if I don't, who will? Yes, the social stigma is crushing. Elves don't even trust other elves, without a long, drawn-out series of dangerous tests, and even then, the other elf's paranoia is likely to get the better of them and likely result in some kind of needless life or death struggle. It's just not fun.

I'm not playing to win, I don't care about winning. I'm playing not to lose, I'm playing for long term character relations and arrangements. I don't think I'm asking too much there. No one should be playing to lose, unless it's IC for them to do so, and no PC should come right out of the box with "loser" stamped on their face because it's immersion breaking, one has to ask, how did this PC ever survive to this point in the first place?

It is completely broken. A few people can play c-elves and Armaddict sounds like one of them but when you have a zero karma race option which is one out of three, excepting that it is less martially capable then the other two which will always be a numbers dragger, and one out of twenty five players play that race, then we've got a big problem in terms of playability.

Now, if elves truly made better criminals, got higher skill caps for assassins/burglars or something like that, and if the running thing were implemented, I think that would begin to make a difference. Not fix it, but begin. Also I think the trust issues should change. Elves could trust a little more easily, still just as deeply to separate themselves from humans, but give them friends to rp with instead of making friends for them a rare and often shortlived situation. I imagine some people who want to play a fixed elven race would appreciate not treating everyone like the enemy or a potential victim all the time.

QuoteWhile following the racial documentation will, yes, allow you to survive longer, good luck having friends when everyone dies before you finish testing anyone, or shortly afterwards.

...I don't see where the documentation leads you to believe that you're going to be a socially accepted individual in the first place, or that you're going to have a group of friends(EDIT:  Aside from tribe.  As noted, I'm not averse to coded tribes, but it has not broken the role for me).  So far as people dying before you can finish testing them, or shortly after?  I'd say clans have the same problem.

But ya know?  This gets completely out of hand every time I disagree.  I'm not saying 'Fuck you guys, don't touch it'.  But I am saying that it's completely fruitful when played a few times and you get the gist of it.  I'd even go so far as to say as losing your first few elves due to trusting people actually helps you get the hang of why they're not trusting.  I don't think it -necessitates- change in itself, so much as a different expectation when choosing it.  And, in earlier posts, it was also talked about how I think the things that make city-elves 'underpowered' is not as much a product of the game or game world but how many expect it to be played.

I -often- play characters that don't travel.  I -often- play characters that are not particularly well-liked.  Those don't break the character for me, they add to it.  I think it contributes to the overall difference between character to character, and the 'realism' of the documentation.  We circumvent a lot of those rules of documentation for the sake of playability, as I said in the earlier post.  I just think the playability factor is getting to the point where even things that are -supposed- to be ordeals are being ragged on for...being an ordeal.

Quote from: Patuk on February 10, 2015, 09:03:33 PM
Dude, no. Just no. A celf has no business in the Byn in the first place.

Odd thing to say considering the number of elf NPCs in the southern Byn compound.

Maybe elves aren't all cloned from one standard copy? Maybe some of them are mentally capable of adopting a clan as their tribe somehow?

Quote from: Eyeball on February 10, 2015, 11:57:06 PM

Quote from: Patuk on February 10, 2015, 09:03:33 PM
Dude, no. Just no. A celf has no business in the Byn in the first place.

Odd thing to say considering the number of elf NPCs in the southern Byn compound.

Maybe elves aren't all cloned from one standard copy?

The Byn used to be one of only two ways I knew how to survive as an elf in Allanak before somebody with two stripes decided to prevent elf entry into the Byn at some point. That was a while ago though, not sure how its like now.

Quote from: Eyeball on February 10, 2015, 11:57:06 PM

Quote from: Patuk on February 10, 2015, 09:03:33 PM
Dude, no. Just no. A celf has no business in the Byn in the first place.

Odd thing to say considering the number of elf NPCs in the southern Byn compound.

Maybe elves aren't all cloned from one standard copy? Maybe some of them are mentally capable of adopting a clan as their tribe somehow?

Yeah, but depending on who the leader is, the Byn can be a pretty shitty tribe, it'll never be the same. Kurac would likely be closer in concept, but again, all depends on who the boss is, and the sorts of experiences they've had with other PC elves who've read the docs as "Hahahaha! Steal everything that's not nailed down!!!" instead of "How can I cleverly get away with this?", the latter of which is a highly useful perspective to have in any organization, as long as properly directed, and the former of which is sheer idiocy bordering on lunacy.

Quote from: Eyeball on February 10, 2015, 11:57:06 PM

Quote from: Patuk on February 10, 2015, 09:03:33 PM
Dude, no. Just no. A celf has no business in the Byn in the first place.

Odd thing to say considering the number of elf NPCs in the southern Byn compound.

Maybe elves aren't all cloned from one standard copy? Maybe some of them are mentally capable of adopting a clan as their tribe somehow?

I don't know if the NPCs we're thinking of are the same NPCs, or if I'm going to get slapped for posting top sekrit information, but I'm pretty sure those are not city elves.

My best warrior so far has been a c elf, just saying, they were totally unkillable, I stored out of boredom, etc etc. I just want things to be realistic. I want city elf pride to be sensical. When I see really humble and wimpy city elves, all my city elves see in those city elves is a corpse that still walks. But interestingly that is also because my city elves have no real ability to protect others. Keep themselves alive, sure, sometimes,but not protect others. That is kind of a turn off for me, I love supporting and c elves are really only good at looking out for #1. I can see a group of c elves getting along but everyone has to stand on their own. That is fun too but it is frustrating as a player feeling like you have no power to keep others alive. Humans on the other hand can learn over much practice and such to protect others super effectively. By having enough of everything.

I will keep playing city elves but they do take a backburner spot compared to my other race/guild favorites because I enjoy group plots and a c elf playing true to the role is either alone or, as fuji says, making trust tests on soon to be dead people.

I have known some super long lived c elves who were definitely not breeds and I really admire their patience with solo RP. I can't do as much solo RP.

I dislike the word broken though. I pick city elves for the flavor and enjoy them for a few months and usually get a good response from people for them. I admit I would stick to the c elf role a lot longer if there was more tribe going on because that is my preferred playing style. Or if their racial skill bonuses were enough that every c elf could truly look out for #1. I say add hide to all c elves. And flee if it isn't already. That would do the trick.

I think a lot of players share an OOC distaste for them because of the tropes of elves turning them off. I can't prove that though -- oh wait, I can.. You see a GDB post like "fuck elves"every week here.

Oh. Just wanted to add. My city elf warrior above was only unkillable because by the time I made that PC I had learned how the game works. To the tune of, I had played 30 PCs at that point. The first city elves I made all died awfully noobish deaths, usually because I thought I could take them outside and hunt. City elves don't hunt well. That's why they can't pick ranger. And shouldn't be attempted to be played like rangers roll.. but anyway. Still, even my best city elf ever was still really unable to protect others, so all that metagame knowledge still didn't really do much. If all city elves could actually watch out for themselves without knowing exactly with guild/subguild (ahem, extended subguild) to pick, or without getting enough luck on the stats roll, then it would be much more fun to be them, because you wouldn't just keep seeing the holocaust play out. i.e., I agree with patuk and metekillot here.

Quote from: Patuk on February 10, 2015, 10:34:49 PM
Suppose I do as you say. There is no code, it's perfect good fun to never accomplish a goddamn thing because every human can bash your face in, I just want to play the race.

Elves are a tribal people who are good runners.

Celves are neither of those things.

So, your response?

You never responded to this. But okay, new post, cool. I'll lay off the personal stuff. The hyperbole is just my style and I think you'll live through it. And the day I stop looking at celf coded power is the day celf pc's outnumber dwarf and hg pc's added up together.

None of what you have said so far adresses the point that celves don't get the things that define their very race. No tribes, no use in running about. You have not played the race as intended, for the sheer reason that you've never seen an idiot dwarf get piled up on after being dumb enough to hit you. Nobody gets to use dat sweet swift movement because running from NPC soldiers is a futile task when they needn't even chase, since they all instantly know your position and will subdue you after you went three rooms. I'm sure you had a lot of fun playing shifty, downtrodden, underhanded celves - I know I did. But the fact remains that you can do all this and more with a human PC of the same mindset, and have a far easier and no less appropriate time for it.

Quote from: valeria on February 09, 2015, 10:12:28 PM
C-elves should at least be able to run in the city without losing stamina.

City-elves do have some bonuses to running.  This is one of them--bonuses inside the city for running.

There is nothing in discussion at this time for adjusting their coded benefits.

Quote from: nauta on February 09, 2015, 06:05:22 PM
I'm late to the party, but here's a hunch about the backstory: at some point elves were way more codedly powerful than humans (maybe even now they still are) and this caused some twink griefing or at least made it too easy to twink grief.  Staff had a look, and have slowly been rolling back c-elves at least to make them less twink-griefalicious.  However, now c-elves are just miserable little runts who only masochists play solo RP with for flavor.

This is pretty much incorrect.

Quote
If that's even close to the ballpark, what about this to get more c-elves in game (because I love the flavor of scummy c-elves): make them codedly as powerful or even weaker than humans on all levels and give them a clan (make all PC c-elves part of the same tribe).

Quote from: Patuk on February 10, 2015, 10:34:49 PM
Elves are a tribal people who are good runners.

Celves are neither of those things.

We have mentioned in other threads that we have plans and wish to do more for city-elf stuff (such as playable tribes that are closer to what tribes should be).  Players may now also create their own city-elf tribes.  Increasing the amount of clan options outside of tribal/outcast/social underdog/dregs of society roles is not in the cards.  

Patience is requested for staff work on such things, but certainly not expected, seeing as how this is yet another thread suggesting things should be done for city-elves.

Quote from: Majikal on February 09, 2015, 09:01:32 PM
City Elves                                                            (Races)

  Elves are the second most populous race on the face of Zalanthas.

A project I've started working on is demographic information as it relates to Zalanthas, its regions, and playable roles.  When completed, it will hopefully make for a better understanding (where applicable) of tribal roles in the grand scheme of things in Zalanthas.  With that said, this one document snippet does not mean that elves should be the second most popular choice for PC play.

QuoteWith that said, this one document snippet does not mean that elves should be the second most popular choice for PC play.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post, but what makes you say this, and what should be the second most populous PC race?

Quote from: Patuk on February 11, 2015, 02:16:25 PM

QuoteWith that said, this one document snippet does not mean that elves should be the second most popular choice for PC play.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post, but what makes you say this, and what should be the second most populous PC race?

ruff circle

No, but really, more dwarves and giants seems like the last thing we need in-game.

Quote from: Patuk on February 11, 2015, 02:16:25 PM

QuoteWith that said, this one document snippet does not mean that elves should be the second most popular choice for PC play.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post, but what makes you say this, and what should be the second most populous PC race?

There probably isn't an answer to this question - except that players should play the roles that appeal to them most.  If the PC representation matched the virtual world, we'd almost all be playing unglamorous road slaves, water carriers, misc. labor, or beggars.

(FWIW, I think half-elves are #2 in PC terms.  Just a guess.  Which is interesting, because I consider them to be at least as challenging to play.)

I think it is dwarves, but you may be correct. The irony of the situation is that when you skew the docs and make elves even more of a minority, it should logically follow that half-elves should become even rarer.

Another point is that breeds prove that people seem to like the idea of playing 'elves that get to ride.' Or I could be wrong, and people just like the breed mindset wayyyy more than elven rp. Either or.

I guess I'm just cynical enough to believe that people would suddenly pick up celves en masse if they magicaly received godlike stats over night. I don't think it's so much 'people hate to play this role' as it is 'people generally prefer not to have horrendous stats and be gimped in many ways.'

Unless they do. But people who like being gimped can do so even without playing celves.

Quote from: CodeMaster on February 11, 2015, 04:01:28 PM

(FWIW, I think half-elves are #2 in PC terms.  Just a guess.  Which is interesting, because I consider them to be at least as challenging to play.)

I agree with you on the #2 PC population.  And I agree, they're a challenging personality/role play race, but they're not nearly as limited in play ability options.

Plus, I'm sure there are many halfbreeds pretending to be human.  

Quote from: Patuk on February 11, 2015, 02:16:25 PM

QuoteWith that said, this one document snippet does not mean that elves should be the second most popular choice for PC play.

I'm not going to comment on the rest of your post, but what makes you say this, and what should be the second most populous PC race?

I say that because the documentation may say something about the world without it matching what PCs do in the world.  As for the second question, I'm not sure--like I said, I really just started on it and am not aiming towards any particular end in mind at this point except to make sure it helps flesh out the areas that need it (mostly tribes and cities).

Okay, that does make sense.

(Though I still think elves are underplayed, but. Fair.)

Start a city-elf tribe, Patuk.  Family role calls seem far too infrequent on the player announcement forum lately!

Quote from: wizturbo on February 11, 2015, 06:58:25 PM
Start a city-elf tribe, Patuk.  Family role calls seem far too infrequent on the player announcement forum lately!

I need a break from suck, at least for a little bit, so I'm out.

It may take a little while, but alright, I will.

Quote from: Patuk on February 11, 2015, 07:27:19 PM
It may take a little while, but alright, I will.

Sweet.  I'd personally love to hear your opinions on this same topic after playing through that role with an actual tribe at your back.

Quote from: wizturbo on February 11, 2015, 07:43:04 PM

Quote from: Patuk on February 11, 2015, 07:27:19 PM
It may take a little while, but alright, I will.

Sweet.  I'd personally love to hear your opinions on this same topic after playing through that role with an actual tribe at your back.

"It was fun until about three hours in, when we were all ruthlessly curb-stomped by the militia because some pickpocket nicked a dagger, we hadn't even done anything yet."

Hey, I had an Akai once. Once. It was some of the greatest fun I ever had in Arm, even if I think the Akai had some sueish traits that made them feel less 'authentic' than an actual tribe might.

The ironic part is that if I put out a 4-man role call, I'd get more people to play with than I did back then. I guess I just really like playing elves  :)

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 11, 2015, 07:47:33 PM

"It was fun until about three hours in, when we were all ruthlessly curb-stomped by the militia because some pickpocket nicked a dagger, we hadn't even done anything yet."

I don't see how this is any different than if a newbie human pickpocket nicked a dagger?  Stealing directly from people is dangerous as fuck.  Be a tribe that's smarter than that, at least until your tribe's pickpocket has become a real artist at stealing shit.   Better yet, make the tribe in Tuluk, and have that pickpocket be a shadow artist.   Of course it'll be hard mode...  But that's the whole point of playing an elf in my opinion.

Fuji is implying that a theft they had nothing to do with got pinned on them, which happens often enough when there are few criminal PC's about.

Quote from: Patuk on February 11, 2015, 07:56:49 PM
Fuji is implying that a theft they had nothing to do with got pinned on them, which happens often enough when there are few criminal PC's about.

Some suggestions:

• Bribe a Templar every IC month to protect your tribe against such false accusations.  Or do some work for them in trade.
• Bribe the Militia directly.  Either in advance, or when they show up for a curb stomping.
• Get dirt on everyone you can and blackmail them if they start fucking with you.
• Keep a low profile until you're able to set up one of these things.  Maybe keep a low profile no matter what.
• Or, as a last ditch effort...make good use of your city run bonuses?

I guarantee it won't be easy, but it sounds like it could be a ton of fun if you've got a solid group of active tribe mates.   I'd personally use up one of my CGP apps for a role like this, to give myself a skill boost so my PC was more effective right out of the gates, since it sounds like you might get a lot of action right away.  Damn, makes me want to try playing one...and I consider myself anti-elf.

Quote from: wizturbo on February 11, 2015, 08:04:48 PM

Quote from: Patuk on February 11, 2015, 07:56:49 PM
Fuji is implying that a theft they had nothing to do with got pinned on them, which happens often enough when there are few criminal PC's about.

Some suggestions:

• Bribe a Templar every IC month to protect your tribe against such false accusations.  Or do some work for them in trade.
• Bribe the Militia directly.  Either in advance, or when they show up for a curb stomping.
• Get dirt on everyone you can and blackmail them if they start fucking with you.
• Keep a low profile until you're able to set up one of these things.
• Or, as a last ditch effort...make good use of your city run bonuses?

I guarantee it won't be easy, but it sounds like it could be a ton of fun if you've got a solid group of active tribe mates.   I'd personally use up one of my CGP apps for a role like this, to give myself a skill boost so my PC was more effective right out of the gates, since it sounds like you might get a lot of action right away.

You can do ALL of this, and there's a half-decent chance they will just take your coin, and do it anyway, because, heh, elves. Really, a long-term view would be, well, if they keep paying, I make more in the long run. Problem is, elves don't live long if they take chances with continued threats (because they will continue to come up with new and unpredictable means of disposing of you, so it's safer to just find the source and eliminate it), and slights and such, as per the documentation, must be avenged. If the militia is not careful with how they conduct a shakedown it could have catastrophic ripples, for one or both parties.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 11, 2015, 08:13:35 PM

... and slights and such, as per the documentation, must be avenged....

Where is that in the documentation?  I mean, depending on the slight it might be very likely, I didn't think it was mandatory?

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 11, 2015, 08:13:35 PM
If the militia is not careful with how they conduct a shakedown it could have catastrophic ripples, for one or both parties.

Or not, because, hehe, elves!

(But to be fair: c-elves with virtual tribes seem to be in a really weird spot since they have no non-staff way of really bringing that virtual power to bear in addressing slights and what-not.  But is that really part of the documentation?)

 It is. One second.

EDIT: Here you go. It's on the old site, but the sole reason I went there is because I would know where to look. It's very far down on the page.

http://old.armageddon.org/rp/racial/elven.html

Quoted for you:

QuoteAs a general rule, the pride of elves makes them very sensitive to the amount of respect given them by both their tribemates and outsiders. In the case of outsiders, this will make elves very observant of how they are treated, and give them very long memories. Elves will remember even the smallest insult, and it will affect them for perhaps the rest of their lives. The theme of revenge often plays a large role in the lives of elves, because they are so sensitive, and so proud - many elves see revenge as the only way to regain the lost pride caused by an insult. The extent of the insult will determine the extent of the revenge, but most elves decide to inflict more damage with the revenge that was done by the insult: thus making them the "winners of the pride race." Because of the long memory elves have for such things, thoughts of revenge can continue for years and years before the opportunity prevents itself. Similarly, if someone treats an elf with respect and even gifts, this will be playing to their strong sense of pride, and will likely make them more favorable towards you. Of course, because of the paranoid nature of elves, this is not always the case.

This pride also plays a role in a tribal elf's relationship with their tribemates. Because the pride makes elves overly sensitive to both insults and compliments, social pressure tends to be a large factor in the politics of a tribe. While insults and compliments can lead to revenge, paranoia, and perceived flattery when they come from outsiders; from tribemates they indicate a sense of social standing - the emotions created by the insults cannot be turned towards revenge, so they instead become turned inward to portray identity within the tribe. When more tribemates respect an individual, that individual becomes more important, and the respect (or lack thereof) that that individual exhibits becomes more influential - and vice versa. The extent of this, and how it interacts with political structure, can vary from tribe to tribe

Interesting.  Surprised city elves aren't extinct.

Which just makes PKing them on sight all the more reasonable since you don't want to get backstabbed 20 years down the road when you >look at them without putting in a command emote or something. ::)

I'm glad that doc didn't make the transition to the new site. Elves should be prideful and prickly and remember debts and grudges, but taking a doc like that at face value is suicide. If they had any sort of coded or political power it'd make a little more sense, but as they stand in game now it just makes them look stupid. Are a bunch of powerless nobodies really going to swear revenge on people who, one way or another, can bring much greater violence to bear on them? I wouldn't.

Quote from: wizturbo on February 11, 2015, 08:48:03 PM
Interesting.  Surprised city elves aren't extinct.

No kidding. Their docs are can be pretty stupid and give very little justification for their continued existence.

Ah I see, it's all from the old site.  Perhaps that documentation wasn't moved over to the new site for a reason then?  A bit of elven culture revision, with all the tribes that were overly fixed on revenge and vendetta's having died out?

The power of copy/pasting lines from that blurb suggests that said bit did make it into the new documentation.

And seriously, things would be much better if they actually could be played in that way. Even if I did go ahead and put in a family role call right now, that's still half the amount of players any given clan will have at any point in time.

It's in the d-elf helpfiles. You'd know if you were thorough in your investigation of elven roleplay. It's not actually suicidal, honestly, it's suicidal of the dumb fuck that has no idea the massive pile of poo he just stepped in. City-elves are bound to be somewhat more tame and experienced with dealing with humans, but don't expect them to just keep letting you shovel crap all over them for lulz.

That's actually kind of a good thing, though the delf issue is pretty much the celf's opposite - they are unopposed entirely in their little corner of the world.

Still doesn't mean celves are going to take everything lying down. Or that they should make better targets than dwarves.

A dwarf should be so intent on their focus that grudges seem illogical, unless of course the person poses significant risk to accomplishing it, so I think one would be less inclined to fuck with an elf over a dwarf. I like that elves have all these different types of pride. I find it very fitting. It would be nice if it were possible to show this pride in game without being suddenly smashed under a boot-heel because everyone knows you have no authority or status, not even in the eastside Labyrinth.

In theory, an elf master bars and shadow artist are the highest social tiers available to elves in the world.  Or are elves not able to be shadow artists?

They are. I doubt Rusarla would promote an elf to master bard status, though. Also, shadow artist status isn't really helpful in public life, unless you're so ridiculously competent that you can flaunt your badassery and accomplish ratsucker-style senior noble assassinations like it ain't no thang.

No idea what ratsucker-style assassin's are...but I'll assume they're pretty awesome.

The Ratsucker was scary as fuck. Was a plotline that lasted quite a bit of time.


From chronology:

Quotec.1613 (Year 73 Age 21)
At a rousing event in the Allanaki Arena, a behemoth of a spider is brought out to be slain by the gladiators. Upon being slain, countless smaller spiders burst from its corpse. Some of them escape into the stands and beyond. Over the course of the next few years, rising reports of dead rats and smaller animals lead to the discovery of those spiders having bred beneath the city and in the poorer districts. The burgeoning infestation of spiders is wiped out, but not before they wreak havoc and fear across the city-state.

edit:
It was one of the few times I remember getting a staff animation for my nobody character and instead of going "This is awesome, I hope something dies, this will be a cool story to tell later!" I went "Fuck this shit!." and ran with my tail between my legs.

I'm going to preemptively say that this was on the Allanaki rumor board back then and should influence absolutely no modern plots at all, so please don't moderate this.

The assassination I referred to was one where a Senior Lady of Borsail blood just up and got jacked off a balcony by freaking spiders. No wholesale slaughter or swarming, just abseiling from above and pow, she gone. Awesome.

It would be good to understand this about documentation:  documentation on the current website would be actual documentation we would expect to use unless stated otherwise.  The old website is still available as an artifact to refer back to from time to time--it serves very few necessary purposes nowadays.  Stuff on the current site...for the most part...was edited/put there with specific purpose.

Take some time and learn where that quoted portion is in current documentation.  It'd be a good exercise in understanding elven roleplay for the different subtypes of elves, and from there, you have more differentiation for different elven tribes.

Quote from: Nyr on February 11, 2015, 09:47:48 PM
It would be good to understand this about documentation:  documentation on the current website would be actual documentation we would expect to use unless stated otherwise.  The old website is still available as an artifact to refer back to from time to time--it serves very few necessary purposes nowadays.  Stuff on the current site...for the most part...was edited/put there with specific purpose.

Take some time and learn where that quoted portion is in current documentation.  It'd be a good exercise in understanding elven roleplay for the different subtypes of elves, and from there, you have more differentiation for different elven tribes.

Yes, but if city elves are so unreasonable as to refuse to ride because of their non-existent endurance, then it also stands to unreasonableness that they'll follow the d-elf docs as far as their racial pride is concerned. I swear, it was in c-elf documentation until recently, I looked over it carefully many times. Must've changed sometime in the last year.

Elf riding docs are available to the public, including all City Elves. Delf pride docs are not. So there's no real reason you NEED to play to those docs.

It hasn't changed.  It has been there since the website was updated in April 2013.  Almost two years now.  We have a public city elf roleplay page and a public desert elf roleplay page.

Quote from: Nyr on February 11, 2015, 10:02:04 PM
It hasn't changed.  It has been there since the website was updated in April 2013.  Almost two years now.  We have a public city elf roleplay page and a public desert elf roleplay page.

Hrmmmm, explains it, I started playing around back then. Probably read it and it stuck with me the whole time. Still, why is it city elves get the shitty documents? I suppose it makes sense from a survival standpoint, but then, so does riding (because let's face it, this whole sticking to one city, while being condemned to being criminals, guilty or not, is kinda, no. which is why there's hardly ever any elves in allanak, because the predictable happens), I'd say not stealing every damn thing but sometimes that can aid survival, if you're smart about it...

Just, what exactly determines what is playable and what is not? I suppose, not being bound by the documents any longer to pursue such slights, in a way, is kind of a relief, but in another way kind of wimpifies an already wimpy race further, which, as I've found, in Allanak, is pretty much just a way to insure future ass-whippings of increasing intensity. Truly, I thought in some ways I was breaking the (old) docs by my willingness to let things go, although, grudgingly, and only after great deliberation. It's not fun, it's not interactive, and it's not really feasible to play the prime suspect in everything that ever goes wrong ever, when you are so hampered by your ability to pick up and move to, you guessed it, another city or village. Maybe not your own home town, but something, with walls, and shops, and things similar to what you grew up around. About the only place you can go is the rinth, and stay there, for fucking ever, even if no one is around and it's boring, or you can fuck off, get tired out on the sands, and die of thirst because a full waterskin weighs thirty tons, or get eaten by something because your wimpy legs can't carry you further and you really don't have a supply of a certain consumable that could help you get through it because it's illegal in your city.

Further, the two clans you CAN join typically travel, or, well, one patrols and is stuck in an outpost that is frequently empty, and your inability to journey long distances makes you even MORE resented (if that were possible) in the Byn, and in Kurac, it gets you stuck in the outpost as everyone else moves on to do all kinds of fun, clanny stuff you can't join in on because you're nothing but a fucking joke who can't go anywhere without a goddamn tent. You can't join a clan that might be more fun to play in if you were say, stuck in one place, such as Salarr (which strangely hires breeds, durh), or Kadius (which, not my cup of tea, but some of you enjoy it), you have no fucking tribes you can join to give you any kind of buffer against the social pressures that attempt, quite frequently, to smash you out of existence because you're the one elf around. You can try to work around it, but when your contacts die, which they will, you're left with nothing, and the new crowd is going to be as stubborn and ornery as the old crowd, if not more so. You can keep it up for a little while, but unlike great merchant houses, you have no virtual backing that's respected anywhere.

It's a pain in the ass to play, and I really, really tried to make it work, parts of it were fun, but the real issue is, no other elves to RP with hardly. Breeds are annoying (seriously, fuck breeds) to deal with and your only real potential source of RP, and you can't trust a goddamn soul, ever, not that you can as a human of course, but you have some pretty solid actions that can be fallen back on pretty fucking easy. A human can take a shit on a rug and everyone wants to slap a medal on them and give them a promotion, along with an attendance trophy. An elf tries to offer you a great bargain on something for only a tiny amount of profit and "Oh, musta stole it, sound the alarms!", instead of, hey, I can get this thing on the cheap and have a few more sids to spend on whiskey and hookers.

Since staff have already commented that they have no plans to codedly adjust city-elves and are in the (lengthy) process of working on fixing the clan situation, maybe we should focus the discussion on what could be done to fix the issues faced by the closed city-elf clans.

I never played in the Akai S'jir but my first PC was taken under the wing of LoD and his merry band of Jaxa Pah elves (in the clan's infancy, I think). Coincidentally, it was stupidly hard to codedly join the clan, and you couldn't app in outside of sponsored calls, so I'm not fully familiar with their documentation either.

Are family role-call city elf tribes allowed to recruit? I mean, I guess they can't really since they aren't coded, but you know what I mean.

I think the answer to that was 'no' and when I brought up the fact that coded city-elf tribes could recruit, the answer was still 'no'.

Try to get you and however many family members you roll up with really skilled before all the other PCs stomp you into dust? Hope for some lucky strength rolls if you all don't pick pickpocket.

Don't leave the 'rinth except on biz?

How do elves even survive in the rinth in the first place?

Elves don't need to change - the cities and their places in them do. Also I think to a much lesser extent that player attitudes and projections onto city elves need to change.

Something that constantly comes up in discussions about c-elves is their inability to ride, to join clans and go out and adventure in the wastes. I had never really considered any of these things as my concept/understanding of the race from being a player was that elves are, for the most part, married/tied to their territory and environment. I saw the intense fear of confined spaces, crowds and the city environment that d-elves experience naturally having a reflection in city elves being incredibly uncomfortable in wilderness/open environments. Where a desert elf can be stressed to unconsciousness by the sea of in-elven bodies and closed space of the Gaj (thanks for that animation, 'Looonsh), a city elf can be put to breaking point by the wide open horizons and lack of hiding places presented by the wastes.

It made sense to me that where a desert elf tribe is acutely aware of the ins and outs of their home turf - the cycles of the various plants and animals that live there, the best routes, choice safe spots and general intimate lore of their land, so to would a city elf tribe be at home in surviving entirely inside a city. Understand the flow of crowds, the location of resources and how to manage them, the various hidden routes and safe places.

This is what I refer to when I say the cities need to change. Not massively - I think currently enough is in place where c-elf PCs can and do exist. But making cities entertaining enough places to base a PC out of for humans and elves is obviously a prime objective.

I don't think the ride or desert run is needed, nor should be implemented because I don't think elves should be wandering between the various settlements in the game. I don't think the majority of players should either. But in both the case of elves and humans this is mostly done by indies and currently elves tend to just be indies, so the temptation to play a 'citizen of the known' PC can be quite strong.

What Rathustra said.

This isn't a whole lot different of a debate that the one that has happened for the last 25 years. (holy crap, it's been that long since I first played this game?!?). There are always those who want to play the exception. I want an dwarf who's focus is to not have a focus. Or a noble who loves commoners. Or a half-giant who is smart. Or a gith who likes humans. (yes, the gith were a playable race for awhile, back in the day). Or a Fale who isn't an inbred foppish flake. Or a vegetarian halfling. (yes, also once playable).

This debate about wanting c.elves to be able to run in the sands isn't any different. We have racial guidelines for a reason. If everyone were allowed to play the exception, then why have races at all? You want an elf that can run in the sands, play a d.elf. You want one that likes the cities, play a c.elf. You want one that likes cities -and- likes to run in the sands...no, that isn't the way Zalanthan elves are.  You want a city elf that doesn't mind riding a kank beetle, no, because that isn't the way Zalanthan elves are. Don't like the way Zalanthan elves are, then find another race to play, because that is the way Zalanthan elves are.

At one point, there was not c.elf and d.elf difference. There was only Elf. The separation of the two made far more sense then, and still does. IMO.

Quote from: Rathustra on February 12, 2015, 07:53:35 AM
Elves don't need to change - the cities and their places in them do. Also I think to a much lesser extent that player attitudes and projections onto city elves need to change.

Something that constantly comes up in discussions about c-elves is their inability to ride, to join clans and go out and adventure in the wastes. I had never really considered any of these things as my concept/understanding of the race from being a player was that elves are, for the most part, married/tied to their territory and environment. I saw the intense fear of confined spaces, crowds and the city environment that d-elves experience naturally having a reflection in city elves being incredibly uncomfortable in wilderness/open environments. Where a desert elf can be stressed to unconsciousness by the sea of in-elven bodies and closed space of the Gaj (thanks for that animation, 'Looonsh), a city elf can be put to breaking point by the wide open horizons and lack of hiding places presented by the wastes.

It made sense to me that where a desert elf tribe is acutely aware of the ins and outs of their home turf - the cycles of the various plants and animals that live there, the best routes, choice safe spots and general intimate lore of their land, so to would a city elf tribe be at home in surviving entirely inside a city. Understand the flow of crowds, the location of resources and how to manage them, the various hidden routes and safe places.

This is what I refer to when I say the cities need to change. Not massively - I think currently enough is in place where c-elf PCs can and do exist. But making cities entertaining enough places to base a PC out of for humans and elves is obviously a prime objective.

I don't think the ride or desert run is needed, nor should be implemented because I don't think elves should be wandering between the various settlements in the game. I don't think the majority of players should either. But in both the case of elves and humans this is mostly done by indies and currently elves tend to just be indies, so the temptation to play a 'citizen of the known' PC can be quite strong.

Ok, I'll shut up about adventures on the sand and agree with this whole-heartedly and enthusiastically. Although I don't necessarily agree with Flying Erdlu's follow-up post.

Quote from: i love toilets on February 12, 2015, 04:49:04 AM
How do elves even survive in the rinth in the first place?

Basically the same way/reason they refuse to ride. They have natural skills/talents that allow them to. ...the problem is, they actually only have those "natural" elven skills/talents if their players(!) know what guild and subguild to pick, i.e., how to avoid the classic dangers of city life.

Being hunted? Hiding out is the only effective way to do this, and the only effective way to hide is to have the hide skill, in a city.

Need to exact revenge or coerce? Lethal threat is the only effective way to this, which means you need to be lethal somehow. With elven strength, poison is really the only effective way to do this.

Need to bribe someone? Making a lot of money is the only way to do this, etc etc etc.

But can a city elf do all these things alone? Of course not (unless they are just really that tireless of a player, which I have seen, but meh, fuck that), they need a TRIBE to do this.

So, in short, c elves survive in the rinth the same way any group of Zalanthans would -- by the skin of their fucking teeth, relying on each other for help.. assuming they even can.

So, being powerless as they are codedly, because so few dangerous c elf PCs actually exist, they actually DON'T survive in the rinth. In actuality, they get slaughtered like animals.

Quote from: HavokBlue on February 12, 2015, 12:40:25 AM
I think the answer to that was 'no' and when I brought up the fact that coded city-elf tribes could recruit, the answer was still 'no'.

The answer to that was 'no'.  If the fact was brought up that coded city-elf tribes could recruit, the fact should have been (and as I recall, was) dismissed as irrelevant for several reasons.  We closed all open city-elf tribal groups.  They had problems.  One of those problems as reviewed by staff would be recruiting.  We have ideas for fixing city-elf tribes and new ones.  Having a full staff team makes it easier to get this accomplished more quickly.

This conversation has occurred several times in the past few months.  This is starting to feel like an "in one ear, out the other" kind of thing.  If you are passionate about elves, it would help to obtain some familiarity with the documentation on them before commenting on that documentation.  If you are passionate about discussing their tribal issues and how to fix them, it would help to understand and review previous threads.  You might have even been involved in them!  :)

For reference for anyone in this thread:

City-elf race page (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elves) -- to get here, go to Characters, Races, then City Elf
City-Elf Roleplay (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/City%20Elf%20Roleplay) -- to get here, go to Characters, Racial Roleplay, then City Elves.  This page has some differences from the Desert Elf page.  The Desert Elf page explains why at the top.
Desert elf race page (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Desert%20Elves) -- to get here, go to Characters, Races, then Desert Elf
Desert elf roleplaying (http://www.armageddon.org/help/view/Desert%20Elf%20Roleplay) -- to get here, go to Characters, Racial Roleplay, then Desert Elves.

---

Previous threads discussing city elves and tribes in general, complete with staff input.

Allanaki City Elves (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,46421.0.html) (starts October 2013, drags on until a few months prior to the next thread on a similar subject)
Lots of argument around actual numbers (which, now that I have time, brings me to a project to review demographics stuff as it relates to tribes and cities). It is mentioned there that we don't allow tribe calls for players, and even some discussion then about how tribes should be able to recruit, and there's even a player mentioning how the notion of a tribe "recruiting" is a bizarre notion IC.  Jokes ensue about how there's no tribes for elves and you can't even make your own and if you could you totally would.  (We've discussed tribes more in-depth, recently--see below.)  This thread stretches on for months; we get a few months break before the next one.

City-elves and stuff. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48117.0.html) (September 2014, reviewing city-elves in general)

Key quotes and links:

Quote from: Nyr on September 28, 2014, 06:14:23 PMWe have discussed this issue before staff-side and there has even been some more recent talk about solutions. 

However, we've also discussed the issue of revealing things before their time, and this is one of those areas where (unfortunately) all you would really get to see from us is an acknowledgement that yeah, this sucks at this time.

What happened to Jaxa Pah and Akai Sjir? (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48117.msg845430.html#msg845430)
More specifics on Jaxa Pah and its problems (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48117.msg845775.html#msg845775)


More jokes about no tribes.  (Don't get me wrong, I love the meme, just pointing out that we have this, and then within a month, you can make your own.  No one has yet, by the way.)  Also closing off with a mention that this is on Welda's radar with regards to city-elves and them being a priority.  Not top priority, but up there.

Discussion of Tribal roles (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48271.0.html) (October 26, going over changes allowing players to do player-created tribes provided they are approved)

We loosened up the restrictions because we felt that with some borders around what players could and should do with a tribe, it wouldn't reach the levels of abuse we saw in years past.  Even there, we have questions about what this changes, because apparently, tribes can't recruit.

Adhira's response about tribes. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48271.msg850894.html#msg850894)
Nyr's reply about why we did not just jam the pedal to the floor. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48271.msg850897.html#msg850897)
Nyr's response about how tribes work, ICly. (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48271.msg851012.html#msg851012)

In short, it's probably safe to say city-elves would be easier to play with a tribe--see the docs, they start out saying that to an elf, tribe is key.  There are no city elf tribes open now.  Create one, then.  If you are not interested in that, you will need to exercise some patience and wait for one (or some) to be set up using the lessons we've learned from tribes that did not work out well.  We also had some staffing shortages up to and near the holidays (both due to holidays, RL circumstances, etc--which is why we did a staffing call, woo!) and we're back up to speed now.

I should probably just put in an app for a tribal role call and stop procrastinating and floundering about with shortlived idiots.

I don't really understand the distinction between a merchant house and an elven tribe. Both will rob you blind, both will murder you if you get in their way or step on their toes wrong, other than the latter being more cohesive with less betrayal as far as their insiders, I'm not sure what the point on the Akai being closed was, then again, I -did not- play in Tuluk very much when they were open, I've never been a member and I've not participated in any events that may have lead to their closure. I've also never had the experience of seeing the Jaxa Pah in action, aside from one or two elderly elves still kicking it from time to time. At the same time as I can see there could have been some issues, I feel like I really missed out on a number of interesting playing experiences.

I vote that after the elven tribes re-open, all the fucking merchant houses get closed for a documentation revamp to streamline their processes and look at what really doesn't work and doesn't fit into the setting, because fuck all humans, and revenge is sweet. After that, noble houses, then militias.

I have played a year longer than you have and so actually got to play an Akai(which was fun,) and I'm not quite certain either. That said, the Akai are inexplicably wealthy, look down on violence, and are in deep with the tuluki templarate. Those last three points coupled with Liratheans still being a thing made it a little hard to do much else than rob people and tell them to pay up if they wanted it to stop.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 12, 2015, 10:47:20 AM
I don't really understand the distinction between a merchant house and an elven tribe. Both will rob you blind, both will murder you if you get in their way or step on their toes wrong, other than the latter being more cohesive with less betrayal as far as their insiders, I'm not sure what the point on the Akai being closed was, then again, I -did not- play in Tuluk very much when they were open, I've never been a member and I've not participated in any events that may have lead to their closure. I've also never had the experience of seeing the Jaxa Pah in action, aside from one or two elderly elves still kicking it from time to time. At the same time as I can see there could have been some issues, I feel like I really missed out on a number of interesting playing experiences.

I vote that after the elven tribes re-open, all the fucking merchant houses get closed for a documentation revamp to streamline their processes and look at what really doesn't work and doesn't fit into the setting, because fuck all humans, and revenge is sweet. After that, noble houses, then militias.

One is run by humans and the other is run by elves.

Quote from: Rathustra on February 12, 2015, 07:53:35 AM
Elves don't need to change - the cities and their places in them do. Also I think to a much lesser extent that player attitudes and projections onto city elves need to change.

(more stuff that's spot on)

Just anecdotal, but over a six month period playing in the rinth, I noticed a lot of c-elves come and go -fairly quickly- (they were probably all Patuk and Fuji having mad mudsex twinkfests with twitchy spicers).

It was a bit disappointing, since eastside seemed to not have something westside had, and in thinking about it I might propose that one issue was that there weren't too many ways to interface with the rest of the city, thus limiting the number and KINDS of plots available - the usual being the cat-and-mouse game with the AoD via stealing (which tires quickly, usually because people just stop caring if you are clever or you get caught if you aren't, not because the AoD took anything like an active stance of mega-overreaction that some people talk about but because you will get caught if you try to sell the items or talk about it).

The rest of the rinth had the guild clan and the guild clan has been associated with the AoD clan historically and there -was- nice cross-pollination of plots.  The guild clan also offered a more direct staff representation, several PCs that operated as "leaders", and so a kind of continuation to plots unavailable to unclanned people.

The poor elf PCs had nobody, not even themselves since they hated each other (which was pretty much awesome at times).  In terms of getting hooked on plots in a clan-like way, I don't think they got very much, and couple this with those oh-so-tempting rinthi NPCs and you had a massive turnover in the c-elf population.

Quote from: Patuk on February 12, 2015, 10:54:51 AM
I have played a year longer than you have and so actually got to play an Akai(which was fun,) and I'm not quite certain either. That said, the Akai are inexplicably wealthy, look down on violence, and are in deep with the tuluki templarate. Those last three points coupled with Liratheans still being a thing made it a little hard to do much else than rob people and tell them to pay up if they wanted it to stop.

They sorta re-did the Akai docs and it's not the way you describe it anymore.

I must say I'm not a big fan of the new Akai docs, it's like they don't really know (Staff) where to put them in the grand scheme of Tuluk and its still finding its place (if there's one to be found).

I think we can all agree that Akai was a terrible mistake and maybe just move on.

Quote from: Rathustra on February 12, 2015, 11:12:27 AM

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 12, 2015, 10:47:20 AM
I don't really understand the distinction between a merchant house and an elven tribe. Both will rob you blind, both will murder you if you get in their way or step on their toes wrong, other than the latter being more cohesive with less betrayal as far as their insiders, I'm not sure what the point on the Akai being closed was, then again, I -did not- play in Tuluk very much when they were open, I've never been a member and I've not participated in any events that may have lead to their closure. I've also never had the experience of seeing the Jaxa Pah in action, aside from one or two elderly elves still kicking it from time to time. At the same time as I can see there could have been some issues, I feel like I really missed out on a number of interesting playing experiences.

I vote that after the elven tribes re-open, all the fucking merchant houses get closed for a documentation revamp to streamline their processes and look at what really doesn't work and doesn't fit into the setting, because fuck all humans, and revenge is sweet. After that, noble houses, then militias.

One is run by humans and the other is run by elves.

Yes, exactly. Close all human clans for over a RL year so they can share in this wonderful experience.

I'd be interested to see how they were revised, but that's a moot point now anyway. I think if Tuluk were to get a celf tribe again, they'd be best served with a new tribe.

I think both city-states would benefit from a smattering of city-elf tribes (2-3) that they can use as a origin. When the elf chooses that tribe, they are automatically clanned into it when they point to their city. Other members of that elf tribe can recognize members of their tribe by looking at them. Let the shenanigans ensue.

As far as racial running goes, last I checked running around the city as a city elf isn't half-bad. You don't lose any stamina in places like the Labyrinth.

I'd rather see the dichotomy split mentioned earlier in the thread -- I think we would see a marked increase of functional city-elves if they could actually ride mounts. I weighed the pro's and con's in my head -- Having the RP flavor of more city elves around because they are more functional and capable of 'keeping up' with the rest of the player base I think far outweighs whatever RP benefit comes from generationally deciding they are too good for mounts, when they aren't.

Seriously, tribeless elf roles can get more isolated than gemmer or rogue magicker roles, as well as more socially disadvantaged. At least gemmers will congregate amongst themselves, and have a respectable degree of protection provided them by the government, and a rogue magicker can pass relatively unnoticed if they are careful. But being tall, pointy-eared and skinny is very difficult to hide.

I've honestly always questioned why the two elf flavors are coded and treated so differently to begin with. Are they really 2 separate races? I highly doubt it. So it doesn't make sense then that city elves' legs would be THAT MUCH weaker than those of desert elves. Looking at the docs, we can tell that Allanak is about 1300 years old and Tuluk 1200, so before that all elves would be considered D-elves. I'm not expert, but I'm fairly certain 1300 years isn't enough time to devolve your 2nd heart, or enlarged achillies tendon, or whatever other fan-favorite theory lies behind the secret to D-elf running. Granted there would be environmental differences in the two, but that wouldn't make or break the trait so drastically.

The other question I have is; why is it totally inconceivable / taboo / off limits for a desert elf to either not have a tribe, or to be a member of a virtual tribe... but for a city elf (and any subguild_nomad for that matter) it's practically the expectation? How many thousands of orphaned virtual tribes are there in the game world at this point? Is that realistic?

Personally I feel like both flavors of elf have suffered in the 10 years I've played, to the almost whimsical (for lack of a better explanation) decisions to close this tribe, annihilate that tribe, combine these 3 tribes into this one sucky tribe and then close it. It's to the point that I can't even remember the last time I saw a desert elf in the desert. (Outside of the Tablelands, anyways.) For being the 2nd most populace race in the world, elves are seriously under-represented and under-loved. And it's not just a lack of a desert option for city-elves that does it.

Honestly, I think player role calls for tribal c-elves should be more of a thing. OR, have a few open tribes that players could just app into, the way Desert Elves used to work. No need for coded tribe HQs or special message boards. Just apply, log in, and play. Meet your tribe mates as you go. It might sound a bit awkward in this day and age, but it used to work out okay for Desert Elves. You know, back when they were around.

Quote from: Malken on February 12, 2015, 11:30:26 AM
I think we can all agree that Akai was a terrible mistake and maybe just move on.

When I first heard about the new "loved by Tuluki's" elf clan, I thought someone on staff must have been smoking crack. And then I got in game, wound up in Tuluk as a Southern Bynner, and first met an Akai. He was being a fuckin' elf, so like any self respecting nakki, I told him to fuck off or I'd cut the points off his ears... and then my Northern superior chastised me and threatened to kill me for the remark. Made to an elf. I nearly rebelled and spam-rode back to the sane hemisphere of the game. ;)

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on February 12, 2015, 12:10:57 PM

Quote from: Malken on February 12, 2015, 11:30:26 AM
I think we can all agree that Akai was a terrible mistake and maybe just move on.

When I first heard about the new "loved by Tuluki's" elf clan, I thought someone on staff must have been smoking crack. And then I got in game, wound up in Tuluk as a Southern Bynner, and first met an Akai. He was being a fuckin' elf, so like any self respecting nakki, I told him to fuck off or I'd cut the points off his ears... and then my Northern superior chastised me and threatened to kill me for the remark. Made to an elf. I nearly rebelled and spam-rode back to the sane hemisphere of the game. ;)

Maybe you shouldn't be acting on Nakki impulses in Tuluk, just a thought. Racism exists, it's just not as blatant. Like many other things, this is one way in which Tuluk is different. I love seeing racism overdone in a place like Red Storm Village. It's like, awright, gonna be some newb boots for sale in the clothing tent soon, maybe a stormcloak if I'm lucky. Yes, people are racist in Red Storm, but like other places, the culture is different in how it's expressed. There's elven soldiers in the streets, the water seller is an elf! Think about that, these are people who will buy the most precious resource, one that could easily be sabotaged, from an elf! And why is that? Well, find out IC.

EDIT: If you want a good example, there's a place in the market where two co-workers of differing races interact. Go sit and listen and watch a while.

Polite and cordial racism or GTFO of my city.

Let's put it this way, if you just stepped out of chargen, and walked up to the only PC elf you could see, bypassing NPC elves and vNPC elves, simply to spit on them and issue death threats and racial slurs with no provocation in a place that isn't Allanak, then you have only yourself to blame for overlooking many things and being meta-gamey. If you just walked in from outside of Tuluk and did the same, then you're even more mistaken. The Akai elf needn't even be Akai, all he needs are inks and he has a leg up on the social spectrum that you don't, he's a fucking citizen, for all anyone else knows, you're a Nakki loyalist and a spy. This is the basis. Further, consider this PC has survived, restricted to a small area that they can only escape with great difficulty if things get too hot. They're bound to have connections, to have greased palms.

You do this in say, Storm, or Luir's, and you haven't bothered to actually sit back and investigate exactly who you're fucking with, there's a good fucking chance you just kicked a wezer nest. This kind of behavior makes one question exactly how your PC got to their current age without being snuffed. You start with the assumption, given your interpretation of the docs, and your experiences in Allanak, that an elf can have no value to anyone else, that they don't provide any services whatsoever that someone else may find necessary, that they have no one who enjoys their company. These are all assumptions, and if the elf has survived longer than several days played, they're likely dead wrong. Nothing is working improperly here when you get fucked over and murdered for fucking with the elf in question. It is working improperly if they let you live out of pity for your lack of wisdom. There's no real reason to allow such threats to continue to persist when you're utterly convinced that one day they're going to try and make good on them.

Your straight out of chargen/straight out of Nak plot simply isn't as important as the current plots in the location you find yourself in. If you can't adapt, then, stay in the Byn compound, or simply, keep your mouth shut until you're more aware of what's going on. You certainly wouldn't do it in Blackwing, because, you already know. Please, don't make too many assumptions.

Self-deleted a snarky post.

Insert photo of kittens and bunnies here.

(http://www.thatcutesite.com/uploads/2010/01/kitten_rabbit_lookalike.jpg)

Edit by Bcw81: Inserted ;)

Quote from: nauta on February 12, 2015, 11:16:57 AM

Just anecdotal, but over a six month period playing in the rinth, I noticed a lot of c-elves come and go -fairly quickly- (they were probably all Patuk and Fuji having mad mudsex twinkfests with twitchy spicers).

Nope! I played a c-elf for a few short months while you were there I think.

I also played a c-elf in the akai when Patuk was there.

But nobody remembers me because.. I don't ever last too long. Anyway, I already put all my relevant opinions in here, I just wanted to give myself a shout out.

Quote from: Malken on February 12, 2015, 01:07:12 PM
Polite and cordial racism or GTFO of my city.

Malken wins.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 12, 2015, 01:24:32 PM
Let's put it this way, if you just stepped out of chargen, and walked up to the only PC elf you could see, bypassing NPC elves and vNPC elves, simply to spit on them and issue death threats and racial slurs with no provocation in a place that isn't Allanak, then you have only yourself to blame for overlooking many things and being meta-gamey.

It wasn't unprovoked. As I said, he was being elfy. I think he was being a snarky after half of our unit had been cut to shreds by Kryl, while the bodies and paralyzed chars were still being dragged back to the city gates. I was a little emotional.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 12, 2015, 01:24:32 PM
... he's a fucking citizen, for all anyone else knows, you're a Nakki loyalist and a spy.

This wasn't a concern that weighed heavy on anyone's mind at that point in time. An unaffiliated nakki could ride to Tuluk and sit in the bar and be relatively undisturbed (pending the whims of Legionaires / templar of course). I think it was post-"Tuluk and Allanak alliance" and pre-"k, lets warz again". I like things better the way they are now, but that just wasn't a very big deal.

When the docs say "fuck elves, except these elves in particular that sprung up from the ground overnight, and crawled back into it shortly there-after" I'm going to raise my eyebrow at it. Plain and simple. Sorry/not sorry.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on February 12, 2015, 01:53:26 PM
It wasn't unprovoked. As I said, he was being elfy. I think he was being a snarky after half of our unit had been cut to shreds by Kryl, while the bodies and paralyzed chars were still being dragged back to the city gates. I was a little emotional.

Ah, I see, I'm the one making assumptions here. Yeah, don't blame you in that case. But otherwise, no, not the ones who "sprung up overnight", but the ones who have persisted and continue to persist should be handled with caution. You have to consider that it gets pretty aggravating to the player to continually prove their PC's worth time and time again, and every asshole hotshot that comes out of chargen that didn't just start playing the game has absolutely no knowledge of this and operates on assumptions and starts shit with you and threatens to murder you or your friends for, wait, why? Fuck all elves? Really? This shit again? It's honestly a lot easier to have you dealt with than earn your grudging respect against all odds.

I can get that, but as Armaddict said early (before being, IMO unfairly, shut down) "that's the role." Not everyone will or should know about your character and their deeds. If people around you do, then they might stick up for you, as the Northerner in this case did.

A lot of times the only time that will become a case is within a certain clan. Like, Kurac has had a few noted elven BA's. The Byn has even had elven sargeant PCs (though not for a long time). And if a character came into that clan and said "Hah, who promoted the sharp-ear?" they may get promptly corrected by some of the people that sharp-ear had saved in previous battles. But to people passing you by on the street for the first time, yeah you're just an elf. They don't know you, and they have no reason to.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on February 12, 2015, 02:35:56 PM
I can get that, but as Armaddict said early (before being, IMO unfairly, shut down) "that's the role." Not everyone will or should know about your character and their deeds. If people around you do, then they might stick up for you, as the Northerner in this case did.

A lot of times the only time that will become a case is within a certain clan. Like, Kurac has had a few noted elven BA's. The Byn has even had elven sargeant PCs (though not for a long time). And if a character came into that clan and said "Hah, who promoted the sharp-ear?" they may get promptly corrected by some of the people that sharp-ear had saved in previous battles. But to people passing you by on the street for the first time, yeah you're just an elf. They don't know you, and they have no reason to.

Yeah, that's the thing, they -don't- know me. Ok, say you walk into a bar and there's some bikers there, they're grungy and have beards, maybe they're spread out. Now, you have an irrational hatred of beards because your creepy uncle Steve had a beard, or something... so, you find the smallest looking one you can, and you walk over and try to yank out a tuft of his beard.

Wait, you don't know this guy. That's a Hell's Angel or something. The predictable happens. Really, fucking with people you -don't- know is a much worse thing than fucking with the ones you do know.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on February 12, 2015, 12:04:44 PM
I've honestly always questioned why the two elf flavors are coded and treated so differently to begin with. Are they really 2 separate races? I highly doubt it. So it doesn't make sense then that city elves' legs would be THAT MUCH weaker than those of desert elves. Looking at the docs, we can tell that Allanak is about 1300 years old and Tuluk 1200, so before that all elves would be considered D-elves. I'm not expert, but I'm fairly certain 1300 years isn't enough time to devolve your 2nd heart, or enlarged achillies tendon, or whatever other fan-favorite theory lies behind the secret to D-elf running. Granted there would be environmental differences in the two, but that wouldn't make or break the trait so drastically.

Consider the Kenyan and Ethiopian dominance in long distance running as a comparison. They are humans, just like Americans. Yet as a culture, we on an average produce much shorter and heavier people than they do. Physiologically, they are slimmer, taller, and have a culture that encourages long distance running.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 12, 2015, 03:37:04 PM
Yeah, that's the thing, they -don't- know me. Ok, say you walk into a bar and there's some bikers there, they're grungy and have beards, maybe they're spread out. Now, you have an irrational hatred of beards because your creepy uncle Steve had a beard, or something... so, you find the smallest looking one you can, and you walk over and try to yank out a tuft of his beard.

Wait, you don't know this guy. That's a Hell's Angel or something. The predictable happens. Really, fucking with people you -don't- know is a much worse thing than fucking with the ones you do know.

I think your analogy only works if it's an elven bar in an elven slum area. Consider the casual, persistent, and sometimes very confrontational racism faced by blacks in the American south (and elsewhere) before (and hell, after) the civil rights movement. Most racist whites could be pretty confident that they could insult a non-white in a public space like a bar, restaurant, or bus and that all the systems of power would have their back. Sometimes such insults were surely unwise and carried repercussions, but usually not.

But we're not talking about just "racism" here, we talking about species-ism. Damn right the humans don't know "who you are", because as an elf, you are nobody.

Blacks are about 20% of the US population. Elves are 40% of so of the free population in either city. It would make a difference.

Added to this example is that a southern bynner entering a northern tavern with elves in it is a little like a Soviet entering your American example's bar. Yeah.

Yes, and that would make sense, in Allanak. In Red Storm, the guards are muls, humans, elves, dwarves, the culture pulls together to do what they need to do to survive the harsh conditions, they might not like it, but they're not a bunch of inbred, hillbilly, monster-truck enthusiast types about it. In Tuluk, subtlety is valued, somewhat, further, they are rabidly xenophobic, and especially dislike Allanak, enough so that the documents mention it as a major point, which implies that no, even if they hate that elf, they're not going to appreciate your Nakki ass coming in and trying to start shit with their citizens. Even in the rinth, where sometimes war breaks out between east and west side, it is documented that they WILL pull together to counter the threat of outsiders, that their hatred of eachother is not as strong as their hatred of meddlesome Nakki loyalists.

In Luir's, there are plenty of elven regulars around, Kurac hires elves. Elves can, theoretically anyway, achieve rank in Kurac, as can half-elves. You wouldn't just see "elf" in someone's sdesc and start talking shit, because they could, theoretically, be wearing a cloak of some kind or some rank, or the could be desert elves who will wait outside and turn you into some kind of arrow pin-cushion upon leaving. No, you would look first, and anyone who thought about it for more than a minute before simply responding to the word "elf" on their screen would begin to wonder, what exactly, am I fucking with? But, be surprised how many don't.

But, I guess it flies in Allanak, and it obviously makes it damn near unplayable, especially long-term, in that particular city. Further, when they roll up a character elsewhere, it's obvious sometimes that the player is still in "that" mode of thinking and simply carries everything over, as if things are the same everywhere. I see this view a lot on the GDB and I think it's harmful to immersion as well as playability.

Quote from: Thunkkin on February 12, 2015, 03:55:55 PM

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 12, 2015, 03:37:04 PM
Yeah, that's the thing, they -don't- know me. Ok, say you walk into a bar and there's some bikers there, they're grungy and have beards, maybe they're spread out. Now, you have an irrational hatred of beards because your creepy uncle Steve had a beard, or something... so, you find the smallest looking one you can, and you walk over and try to yank out a tuft of his beard.

Wait, you don't know this guy. That's a Hell's Angel or something. The predictable happens. Really, fucking with people you -don't- know is a much worse thing than fucking with the ones you do know.

I think your analogy only works if it's an elven bar in an elven slum area. Consider the casual, persistent, and sometimes very confrontational racism faced by blacks in the American south (and elsewhere) before (and hell, after) the civil rights movement. Most racist whites could be pretty confident that they could insult a non-white in a public space like a bar, restaurant, or bus and that all the systems of power would have their back. Sometimes such insults were surely unwise and carried repercussions, but usually not.

But we're not talking about just "racism" here, we talking about species-ism. Damn right the humans don't know "who you are", because as an elf, you are nobody.

Actually they'd probably be considered the same species since half-elves exist.  -pedantic.

But otherwise I agree wholeheartedly with you here - city elves should be a reviled underclass.  That's their flavor, imo.

In the virtual world, city elves are probably mostly hanging out among their own kind, pursuing fully elven plots, drinking in the right places, and generally keeping a low profile with respect to the human world.  They aren't getting accosted and harrassed at every turn because they're in their impoverished safe zones, going home to their elven families, talking allundean all the time, etc.

PC city elves on the other hand live in the PC world.  The PC world is human-centric in terms of coded authority figures, mercenary outfits, mercantile efforts, political intrigue, etc.  So there's this understandable temptation for the PC city elf to take a departure and start interacting with the PC humans and their power structures, sitting in the human taverns, trying to establish a good rep among humans, etc.  I bet most city elf PCs spend 95% of their time talking in sirihish -- one might say it's a wonder allundean has even survived in the cities. ;)

I think dwarves are in a similar position (99.9% of their time talking in sirihish), but dwarf threads like these don't pop up because -- despite the focus thing -- dwarves have fewer restrictions on the activities they can get engaged with in game.

It's really encouraging to read a post like Rathuustra wrote, and to see that Nyr does consider it an issue.  Given the relatively small number of city elf players though, I think it's understandable that it's on the backburner for now.

Elves = Pikeys from Snatch.

You may not trust them, but you'll cut deals with them, and if you kill one of their own they'll band up and try to murder you in turn. They could be considered to have a bit of scrappy glamour about them, due to their ability to survive and thrive against all odds, but despite being tight-knit, mischief-loving folks they're still a bunch of assholes and con-men.

And somehow you ended up buying a caravan with no wheels. Fancy that.

That sort of approach gives you a lot of leeway in dealing with elves. You can even befriend one! Just don't forget what they are.

"Yeah, Amos ain't bad - for an elf."

I agree that Luirs/Red Storm are a different social situation - and sure - aggressive Nakkis aren't going to be appreciated up north. But it felt like your comments, Fujikoma, weren't just about north/south issues, but about how elves in general are treated. And in both cities, even if elves are a big portion of the population, the structures of society exclude them in a huge and pervasive way that has ripple effects through every facet of human/elf interaction. Most elves are not going to have any friends in high places and are not going to have anyone with real power interested in protecting them or backing them up. And everyone knows it. At least, that's always been my sense of the issue.

Quote from: Thunkkin on February 12, 2015, 04:33:11 PM
I agree that Luirs/Red Storm are a different social situation - and sure - aggressive Nakkis aren't going to be appreciated up north. But it felt like your comments, Fujikoma, weren't just about north/south issues, but about how elves in general are treated. And in both cities, even if elves are a big portion of the population, the structures of society exclude them in a huge and pervasive way that has ripple effects through every facet of human/elf interaction. Most elves are not going to have any friends in high places and are not going to have anyone with real power interested in protecting them or backing them up. And everyone knows it. At least, that's always been my sense of the issue.

Ok, see, there's the source of our disagreement. I'm perfectly fine with the level of racism that exists in other places. It does make things difficult, yes, but that's the role, and it's documented. My contention is that the Allanak treatment is overdone to the point of absurdity, and though elves exist in Allanak, existing as a PC is near impossible simply for the sheer amount of grief you will receive for a simple wrong word or slip-up, everyone thinks, oh, an elf, time to show off my Nakki roleplay skills, but it's actually detrimental, in the long term, to go whole hog on it, because, even though from your perspective, you're doing what you're supposed to be doing and what makes sense for your character, you may not be putting yourself in the player of the elf's shoes, and thinking about the documentation that they are expected to follow. While I agree, this isn't a game you're supposed to play nicely, it's also not supposed to be a non-stop grief fest where you can never, ever hope to get a foothold with anything, no matter how much effort you put into it.

From your perspective, the interaction ends when you walk away from it, but you must remember that most other human players in Allanak are just like you, and oh, hey, what's that? Is that an, elf? Repeat until thoroughly demoralized. Why is this elf being targeted so much? Because they're visible, interacting, and obviously a player character. As I was pointing out previously, I don't see many folks focus on vNPCs and NPCs, though I have seen a few bully them, and I must commend them for keeping a steady character that interacts with their environment, instead of zeroing in on the lone elf PC all the time, who has done absolutely nothing at all and immediately making them the focus of an unrealistic amount of hatred that, when it comes to NPCs and vNPCs, seems to cease to exist.

It's no wonder there's no elves to torment or bully. People don't even bother to investigate the connections an elf may have. It may be a relatively safe assumption that they don't have powerful allies, but there's no way you can know that for certain. That elf could be secretly serving the purposes of a Templar or a soldier, and their services could be highly valued, this could easily blow up in your face. That elf could be friends with a number of highly deadly and secretive east side elves, they may even have some Guild connections that would value them over you, despite being an elf. They could, mysteriously, have connections with mindbenders and rogue mages, which could really ruin your entire life, your virtual family's life, the lives of your friends, as the opportunities present themselves. Simply, you don't know this, and the player of an elf PC who has endured enough torment is, naturally, going to seek refuge with other outsiders and make allies with those outside the norm, simply because they have no other choice if they want interaction or any reasonable degree of protection.

You don't know what palms are being greased, what info is going where, who simply likes this dirty thief for odd reasons, you don't know this guy, could be some random skinny at the bar, who knows, maybe his vNPC tribe is a highly lethal tribe of assassins, maybe he's a master assassin, but as long as we start with the perspective, because we know elven tribes are virtual and the amount of effort it takes to test, trust and build alliances and the amount of coin it would take to grease palms to the point to where their social value would be higher than Amos the grebber or mercenary, that the elf is completely powerless, then it becomes rational to have our characters behave self-destructively when dealing with elven characters. You see, to survive in Allanak, the PC elf WILL have to do these things, simply because of the absurd amount of attention they receive from everyone and their mother, despite the huge amount of elves walking the streets of the city.

Hence, the only elf in the city treatment, and why so few people play elves, particularly in Allanak, and why it's so jarring to see the Nakki mindset pop up elsewhere, as the player of an elf, as if it simply carries over. Yes, no matter where you go you will be strongly disliked, even hated, but at least in other places you can almost force your foot in the door and begin dealing with folks on a rational basis. In Allanak, you're going to have to work really fucking hard for it, and then, because no one will listen when you inform them they really don't want to fuck with you, you're going to have to demonstrate why, and no matter how many times you do it, Amos the hotshot straigh out of chargen #10876 is going to do the same tired old thing, because of the OOC knowledge that "What's that elf gonna do? He can't do shit!", sigh.

So yeah, another long rant, and seriously, it's just about Allanak. Yes, there is racism elsewhere. I wasn't aware this was the deep south simulator, I don't consider it a good model for dealing with the second most populace race in the known, and I think we can all do a little better when it comes to spreading the hate out, and having a healthy respect for how swiftly death can be at your doorstep in this harsh world. I've seen more c-elves in Red Storm and Tuluk than I have anywhere else, and yes, they do get eyed suspiciously and other find out IC stuff, but it's playable, and at the end of the day, that's what matters, playability. Extra hard mode is one thing, unplayable is another.

Eh, if players hesitated to start shit with other PCs out of fear of connections they may have, and just wanted to win at the imaginary social game, everyone's characters would just run around smiling at people and inviting each other over for mudsex.

Oh, wait.....

So yeah, fuck playing it safe all the time. If your character is a low-brow asshole, let 'em be a low-brow asshole.

My argument against randomly picking on elves is that, virtually, they'd have an entire pack of equally untrustworthy, knife-holding sharpears at their back.

Not that they might have connections.

I think part of the issue with city elves not being able to travel outside the gates is they don't have many options for combat skill training.  They can't join clans to spar, they don't necessarily trust anyone enough to spar with them in an apartment, and there's no "hunting" options for them in the cities.   I know this is a role playing game, but I think we call can relate to getting in the mood once in a while to train up our PC's, especially when most guilds have combat elements to their skill sets.

I don't know what the best solution is for this, but I think addressing it in some way could improve some of the pain points for city elf roles, as well as any city roles for that matter.

Hypothetical examples:

• Non-clan affiliated fighting pits
• Some kind of encroachment of local wild life on the city streets/underground/very nearby
• Some combat versions of jobs, akin to salting/clay/dung shovelling

I recognize all of these suggestions of potential issues with them...  but like I said, don't know what the best solution would be, more interested in identifying a lack of city combat roles as an underlying pain point.

It's a bit like messing with Italians, really, if we're going to keep on using Thunkkin's America metaphor.

Suppose there is a 2% chance a random Italian is a mobster. Or 5. 10. At what point do you stop being a total, overt dick to every Italian becsuse the retaliation isn't worth it? Dislike them all you want, yes, but realise that being too brash will cost you.

How many celves will be in a tribe and have a dozen meathead cousins to come beat up that douche who broke their jaw? 2? 5? 20? Whatever the percentage, it seems reasonable to assume that enough celves have 'mob connections' that it may be wiser for people to at least consider how they treat elves.

Now turn whatever percentage of elves has mob connections into zero because reasons, and you have an understanding of PC elf land.

Quote from: Delirium on February 12, 2015, 05:42:58 PM
Eh, if players hesitated to start shit with other PCs out of fear of connections they may have, and just wanted to win at the imaginary social game, everyone's characters would just run around smiling at people and inviting each other over for mudsex.

Oh, wait.....

So yeah, fuck playing it safe all the time. If your character is a low-brow asshole, let 'em be a low-brow asshole.

My argument against randomly picking on elves is that, virtually, they'd have an entire pack of equally untrustworthy, knife-holding sharpears at their back.

Not that they might have connections.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being a low-brow asshole, and what DOES tick me off is when elves take being a low-brow asshole too seriously, and take any little insult like it's worthy of retaliation. I think being rude and crude is great, but yeah, physical violence crosses a line, taking property crosses all the lines, and attempted murder should basically equal a full-blown murderfest in retaliation.

But calling elves shitbags and saying you don't talk to elves and telling every elf you see to fuck off is pretty much fine in my book, esp. because that is the common opinion. It's when it gets more than that that I wonder if people actually understand how elves are SUPPOSED to work.

Anyway, people roleplay a hatred of magickers "too far" as well, to the tune of they know that it is actually very difficult for magickers to exact revenge on them, so the HATE of magickers supercedes the FEAR of magickers that they should have. People should technically be worried about elves and their tribes, but they know that it is actually very difficult for elves to exact revenge so they take it too far.

Anyway, I don't care if I get killed by c elves... I have been PKed by c elves in the rinth before and it was a great experience, totally worth it for everyone involved.. and the sad thing is it only happened to me once, but I have definitely fucked with c elves more than once.

Quote from: Harmless on February 12, 2015, 06:26:07 PM

Quote from: Delirium on February 12, 2015, 05:42:58 PM
Eh, if players hesitated to start shit with other PCs out of fear of connections they may have, and just wanted to win at the imaginary social game, everyone's characters would just run around smiling at people and inviting each other over for mudsex.

Oh, wait.....

So yeah, fuck playing it safe all the time. If your character is a low-brow asshole, let 'em be a low-brow asshole.

My argument against randomly picking on elves is that, virtually, they'd have an entire pack of equally untrustworthy, knife-holding sharpears at their back.

Not that they might have connections.

I don't think there's anything wrong with being a low-brow asshole, and what DOES tick me off is when elves take being a low-brow asshole too seriously, and take any little insult like it's worthy of retaliation. I think being rude and crude is great, but yeah, physical violence crosses a line, taking property crosses all the lines, and attempted murder should basically equal a full-blown murderfest in retaliation.

But calling elves shitbags and saying you don't talk to elves and telling every elf you see to fuck off is pretty much fine in my book, esp. because that is the common opinion. It's when it gets more than that that I wonder if people actually understand how elves are SUPPOSED to work.

Anyway, people roleplay a hatred of magickers "too far" as well, to the tune of they know that it is actually very difficult for magickers to exact revenge on them, so the HATE of magickers supercedes the FEAR of magickers that they should have. People should technically be worried about elves and their tribes, but they know that it is actually very difficult for elves to exact revenge so they take it too far.

Anyway, I don't care if I get killed by c elves... I have been PKed by c elves in the rinth before and it was a great experience, totally worth it for everyone involved.. and the sad thing is it only happened to me once, but I have definitely fucked with c elves more than once.

Rude and crude IS great, I can handle this, tooooo a certain extent. Once you hit violence and death threats, instead of an unfriendly exchange of banter, it turns into a whole other game, in which mindless escalation is inevitable, and guess what, due to past experiences, which, if the elf survived them, they're just going to crank it all the way up right at the start because there's too much to lose. Machiavelli once said something like, if you must injure a man, you must injure him to such an extent that he will never be capable of pursuing revenge, or not do it at all. Seems to be true. Just put the bastards in the dirt, problem solved, little mess.

"Mindless escalation" of violence is not inevitable, and is a fault of the City Elf player as much as the other. Threats and intimidation are thrown at Celves because they are an oppressed species that is barely tolerated by the establishment. They would rightfully feel hurt and stung by this oppression, but if Virtual City Elves responded like some player City Elves did with escalated retaliation, the Elven population would have been exterminated within the major cities by now.

Swallow the pride and run the fuck away. In Allanak, there's a whole quarter where City Elves cannot easily be touched.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on February 12, 2015, 07:23:36 PM
"Mindless escalation" of violence is not inevitable, and is a fault of the City Elf player as much as the other. Threats and intimidation are thrown at Celves because they are an oppressed species that is barely tolerated by the establishment. They would rightfully feel hurt and stung by this oppression, but if Virtual City Elves responded like some player City Elves did with escalated retaliation, the Elven population would have been exterminated within the major cities by now.

Swallow the pride and run the fuck away. In Allanak, there's a whole quarter where City Elves cannot easily be touched.

That's the thing, try running away, and they pursue, even to their own inevitable demise.

Elves should make upstart street gangs that come and go.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 12, 2015, 07:27:11 PM
That's the thing, try running away, and they pursue, even to their own inevitable demise.

So what's the problem, then? You not only dodged the bullet, it turned around and got the pursuer smack in the forehead. Lay low and count yourself lucky.

Quote from: Delirium on February 12, 2015, 04:26:59 PM
Elves = Pikeys from Snatch.

I think this is a useful analogy, but also somewhat flawed. Snatch's "Pikeys" are very similar to Rinthi Elves, in that they're a criminal family who have firepower equal to their opponents (think of Bricktop as a Guild crew leader) who also know to use their home ground to good effect.  Pikeys had the benefit of superior numbers and mobility, so that they could overwhelm their enemies and then evade a greater power (the police's) wrath. Rinthi Elves have similar cover, so long as they're operating in the east side of the Labyrinth.

The analogy begins to fall apart when you try to say that All City Elves are Pikeys. Most City Elves are living as a minority, without support, and few places to run whenever the majority decides to fuck with them. They don't have any of the advantages that allow the rinthi Elf population to survive. It's just kind of a tightrope walk of survival until some asshole runs up and pushes you off because they can. (And I'll admit, it's sometimes fun to do this. It's a relatively safe outlet for pent up frustrations because hey, that City Elf probably has no tribe to cover for them, and if they do sometimes I'm willing to take that risk for some excitement.)

Maybe they should just make all City Elves in Allanak start in the Rinth...

Maybe it'd be helpful for there to be a slight revision to documentation that keeps things as they are, but with one additional 'step' in the elven mentality, which is that elves look out for elves.

That sharp over there isn't tribe, but you -know- he's getting fucked just for being an elf, and dammit, you're an elf too.  Elves band together against outsiders, and that includes racially speaking.

Would that make a severe change?  I think so.  And it might make it more reliable for newer players, having that knowledge that that sharp -will- still fuck you, but will, in most cases, also side with you when other people stick their noses into elven business.  Or will this just create situations where it would be even more complex and hard to judge?

That would be pretty interesting, actually.

'I don't care for the soldier or the thief. But, if I let him get dragged off now, I'll be the one beat up tomorrow. He's prolly gonna try and rob me anyway if I take him back home and shit, but if I just throw a rock at the soldier he can at least get away and have a chance at helping me out later.'

Or something like that.

I think that "lone elves" should be completely removed from the game and instead we should have a more realistic version of what elves would be like on Arm, "A gang of elves stand here, ready to cut you up." just like we have "A unit of soldiers".

Elves are ridiculous because their docs are made to go with what it would be like to have the backing of a whole tribe behind you.

If the docs said that elves were loners and were highly anti-social, especially to one another, and they had the expertise to do so in both a coded and documented way, then elves would be awfully more playable.

Maybe we should go in that direction instead of always hoping that 15 players will suddenly all decide to play an elf from the same tribe at the same time.

This is so MUSH-like where the GM constantly has to remind us that there's a background that we need to consider with our actions but we never actually see that background being played out, we are just constantly reminded that it exists ICly.

Quote from: Malken on February 12, 2015, 10:52:37 PM
If the docs said that elves were loners and were highly anti-social, especially to one another, and they had the expertise to do so in both a coded and documented way, then elves would be awfully more playable.

Maybe we should go in that direction instead of always hoping that 15 players will suddenly all decide to play an elf from the same tribe at the same time.

This is so MUSH-like where the GM constantly has to remind us that there's a background that we need to consider with our actions but we never actually see that background being played out, we are just constantly reminded that it exists ICly.

At the risk of sounding cynical too :) I feel like this would be a fruitful direction to take that makes a lot of IC sense, and really evokes a sense of ruin and bastardization, which I think is very Zalanthan:

Quote from: CodeMaster on October 10, 2014, 06:28:14 PM
The high-level idea is to suggest the big city somehow inflicts itself on the elven psyche, dampening their tribal spirit.  There would be elves that retained their tribal instincts, but they would be the exception.  Thus the docs would reflect a reality that most (all?) PC city elves face, including newbies.

It also feels like it would require less administrative overhead to take this approach.  No need to define a bunch of tribes and clans, unless players wanted to make a family rolecall.  Just a bunch of humanoid rats running around, dire and pitiable shadows of their tribal cousins.  I can't really comment on it too much, but it seems like this is the way city elf players engage the game at the moment too -- so it wouldn't change much.

A small coded boost of some kind or a bit more depth to city elf life might make them more appealing to play since they're barred from many common activities -- but I think their players should take a bit of pride in the fact that they're playing the game on "nightmare" mode, and my impression is they have some sweet advantages in the right circumstances.

Maybe my next char will be a city elf. :)

Er. That's how elves are now, with the whole loner thing blahblahblah. And uh. . . there's like 2 elves every six months because of it. Why would we want to change the docs to fit that?

Quote from: MeTekillot on February 12, 2015, 11:27:55 PM
Er. That's how elves are now, with the whole loner thing blahblahblah. And uh. . . there's like 2 elves every six months because of it. Why would we want to change the docs to fit that?

It's what I just wrote, because it's the reality of the game, so why not make the docs fit the reality instead of always hoping that the playerbase will finally become what the docs say it should be like.

THERE WILL NEVER BE A GANG OF PC ELVES. There might be three elf PCs from the same tribe by some miracle and great timing, but that's not a gang, that's a few PCs pretending they are part of a gang.

The docs say you are part of a gang, the Staff says you are part of a gang but the reality is that you're just one idiot who decided to play an elf that is part of a virtual gang when in reality you're just a loner who is constantly reminded that the rest of the playerbase sucks and they haven't read that you are part of a virtual gang that will virtually take care of them if they harass you too much.

Malken has choice words:

Quote
This is so MUSH-like where the GM constantly has to remind us that there's a background that we need to consider with our actions but we never actually see that background being played out, we are just constantly reminded that it exists ICly.

My favorite thing about Arm is it's all about RP but it has these coded aspects that back up its documented reality.  But city elves are in a situation where there's not much backing up the documented reality of your typical city elf ("tribe is key"), so they're anomolous in that regard.

I wrote some more thoughts on this a while back over here (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,48117.msg845596.html#msg845596).

Quote from: Patuk on February 11, 2015, 09:11:14 PM
They are. I doubt Rusarla would promote an elf to master bard status, though. Also, shadow artist status isn't really helpful in public life, unless you're so ridiculously competent that you can flaunt your badassery and accomplish ratsucker-style senior noble assassinations like it ain't no thang.

The best Rusarla NPC is the elven master bard.

Quote from: Armaddict on February 12, 2015, 07:52:07 PM
Maybe it'd be helpful for there to be a slight revision to documentation that keeps things as they are, but with one additional 'step' in the elven mentality, which is that elves look out for elves.

That sharp over there isn't tribe, but you -know- he's getting fucked just for being an elf, and dammit, you're an elf too.  Elves band together against outsiders, and that includes racially speaking.

Would that make a severe change?  I think so.  And it might make it more reliable for newer players, having that knowledge that that sharp -will- still fuck you, but will, in most cases, also side with you when other people stick their noses into elven business.  Or will this just create situations where it would be even more complex and hard to judge?

I'm so tempted to roll up an elf and play just like this.

Docs and karma be damned.

Quote from: Patuk on February 12, 2015, 04:01:08 PM
Elves are 40% of so of the free population in either city. It would make a difference.

According to something that is not in the documentation.  This is why I feel it is important to review such things because players are basing their opinions about how elves should be roleplayed based something posted on the GDB.

Quote from: Nyr on February 13, 2015, 09:27:26 AM

Quote from: Patuk on February 12, 2015, 04:01:08 PM
Elves are 40% of so of the free population in either city. It would make a difference.

According to something that is not in the documentation.  This is why I feel it is important to review such things because players are basing their opinions about how elves should be roleplayed based something posted on the GDB.

If you adjust the percentage lower you'll have to somehow cut down on the number of breeds, either that or adjust the documents on humans and elves mating.

EDIT: An alternate solution would be to make them too stubborn to ride as well, despite having the ability to become quite skilled at it. I doubt many people would play breeds then.

Quote from: Fujikoma on February 13, 2015, 09:30:09 AM

Quote from: Nyr on February 13, 2015, 09:27:26 AM

Quote from: Patuk on February 12, 2015, 04:01:08 PM
Elves are 40% of so of the free population in either city. It would make a difference.

According to something that is not in the documentation.  This is why I feel it is important to review such things because players are basing their opinions about how elves should be roleplayed based something posted on the GDB.

If you adjust the percentage lower you'll have to somehow cut down on the number of breeds, either that or adjust the documents on humans and elves mating.

You are correct in that changing one changes all, but you're talking about adjusting a percentage lower that is not in documentation; regardless of the end result, the documentation will reinforce itself.

We're talking about a statistic you have presented to us, Nyr. It's a little silly to receive a neat amount of statistics from you one day and then to hear things are totally different the other.

Quote from: Armaddict on February 12, 2015, 07:52:07 PM
Maybe it'd be helpful for there to be a slight revision to documentation that keeps things as they are, but with one additional 'step' in the elven mentality, which is that elves look out for elves.

That sharp over there isn't tribe, but you -know- he's getting fucked just for being an elf, and dammit, you're an elf too.  Elves band together against outsiders, and that includes racially speaking.

Would that make a severe change?  I think so.  And it might make it more reliable for newer players, having that knowledge that that sharp -will- still fuck you, but will, in most cases, also side with you when other people stick their noses into elven business.  Or will this just create situations where it would be even more complex and hard to judge?

I'm not sure this requires a documentation change.  Considering the elvish mindset, if that round-ear over there is fucking with that a sharp, just because they're a sharp, well... they'll be doing the same thing the next day with another sharp and the next day with another.  Eventually, they will get to someone you do care about. Especially, if their behavior is so egregious that it is encouraging other people to fuck with other sharps.

Quote
AmosFan #1: Hey, look Amos is pulling off that sharp's ears!
AmosFan #2: Yeah that's pretty cool, maybe I'll find a sharp tomorrow and pull off her ears too!
AmosFan #3: Yeah....

If you can fuck with them with impunity in return?  By all means I'd say go for it.  You're not protecting that sharp, fuck that sharp.  You're protecting yourself and your own by making sure that shit doesn't touch them.

Quote
AmosFan #1: Hey, dude remember when Amos pulled that sharps ears off?  We should go do that!
AmosFan #2: Uh, no?  Didn't you see Amos hanging from his kanker on Merchants...
AmosFan #3: (nodding) ... with his own ears shoved in his mouth?

Quote from: Khorne8 on February 13, 2015, 11:10:26 AM

Quote from: Armaddict on February 12, 2015, 07:52:07 PM
Maybe it'd be helpful for there to be a slight revision to documentation that keeps things as they are, but with one additional 'step' in the elven mentality, which is that elves look out for elves.

That sharp over there isn't tribe, but you -know- he's getting fucked just for being an elf, and dammit, you're an elf too.  Elves band together against outsiders, and that includes racially speaking.

Would that make a severe change?  I think so.  And it might make it more reliable for newer players, having that knowledge that that sharp -will- still fuck you, but will, in most cases, also side with you when other people stick their noses into elven business.  Or will this just create situations where it would be even more complex and hard to judge?

I'm not sure this requires a documentation change.  Considering the elvish mindset, if that round-ear over there is fucking with that a sharp, just because they're a sharp, well... they'll be doing the same thing the next day with another sharp and the next day with another.  Eventually, they will get to someone you do care about. Especially, if their behavior is so egregious that it is encouraging other people to fuck with other sharps.

Quote
AmosFan #1: Hey, look Amos is pulling off that sharp's ears!
AmosFan #2: Yeah that's pretty cool, maybe I'll find a sharp tomorrow and pull off her ears too!
AmosFan #3: Yeah....

If you can fuck with them with impunity in return?  By all means I'd say go for it.  You're not protecting that sharp, fuck that sharp.  You're protecting yourself and your own by making sure that shit doesn't touch them.

Quote
AmosFan #1: Hey, dude remember when Amos pulled that sharps ears off?  We should go do that!
AmosFan #2: Uh, no?  Didn't you see Amos hanging from his kanker on Merchants...
AmosFan #3: (nodding) ... with his own ears shoved in his mouth?

If only there was a way to upvote posts... just know that when you do this in a harsh world where hundreds of bodies are dumped on the pile every day, you're going to hear shit like "Oh no! Amos was such a good guy!" "Yeah, Amos was a saint!" "I've instructed my troops to kill every sharp they see, because Amos's worthless commoner ass got himself killed." "I was so going to bang Amos and now I'm all life-sworn to vengance.". It's quite discouraging, like, wow, really? You're breaking my immersion here. Amos was shit just like everyone else, and he pretty much did it to himself.

Quote from: Patuk on February 13, 2015, 10:52:56 AM
We're talking about a statistic you have presented to us, Nyr. It's a little silly to receive a neat amount of statistics from you one day and then to hear things are totally different the other.

I quoted what was already on the GDB from a former staff member.  There has been no official staff undertaking to go over this stuff and actually document it until now.  

I'm sorry if this is a surprise or if it is troubling or silly, that wasn't my intention.  I've brought it up before in a thread that evolved very similarly to this one, so I did not think it would be a surprise to see that I was going to take it on as a project when I had time.

Quote from: Nyr on September 28, 2014, 09:46:41 PM
Also, while staff and players refer to those population stats on the GDB, I'm pretty sure it's not official documentation-worthy stuff.  It really needs a look so that it can be (if need be) put into official documentation.

Quote from: Nyr on February 13, 2015, 11:28:25 AM

Quote from: Patuk on February 13, 2015, 10:52:56 AM
We're talking about a statistic you have presented to us, Nyr. It's a little silly to receive a neat amount of statistics from you one day and then to hear things are totally different the other.

I quoted what was already on the GDB from a former staff member.  There has been no official staff undertaking to go over this stuff and actually document it until now.  

I'm sorry if this is a surprise or if it is troubling or silly, that wasn't my intention.  I've brought it up before in a thread that evolved very similarly to this one, so I did not think it would be a surprise to see that I was going to take it on as a project when I had time.

Quote from: Nyr on September 28, 2014, 09:46:41 PM
Also, while staff and players refer to those population stats on the GDB, I'm pretty sure it's not official documentation-worthy stuff.  It really needs a look so that it can be (if need be) put into official documentation.

I think the %40 stat is perfectly reasonable and needs no adjustment, to adjust it further downwards would be to snowball the shit already going on downhill without any stops, and to crank it up a notch would be to destabilize the social structure. What I think needs to happen are either players need to start RPing with elves responsibly, or some kind of punishment system must be put into place for particularly careless and cruel transgressions, a position for which Badskeelz (possibly jokingly) chose to nominate himself for in the RAT thread... or, you could just, give the c-elves some tribes. I know it takes a lot of work, there was already a system in place. Was it actually broken SO badly that it needed to be closed until a solution could be come up with? Or was it something that possibly could have remained open to provide a balance of power and a small safety net for elves while work on a new system was taking place? Keep in mind, this is coming from a mostly Allanaki perspective, I'm still learning about the other locations, but I have seen plenty of shit go down in Nak to know.

I've provided exact responses to this before and linked them in the thread so that they can be found without much extra effort.

QuoteI'm not sure this requires a documentation change.  Considering the elvish mindset, if that round-ear over there is fucking with that a sharp, just because they're a sharp, well... they'll be doing the same thing the next day with another sharp and the next day with another.  Eventually, they will get to someone you do care about. Especially, if their behavior is so egregious that it is encouraging other people to fuck with other sharps.

What I was getting at, was essentially a tiered sort of loyalty in city elven culture, where other elves are 'higher' by default.  It isn't that someone has to be being blatantly racist, it's that elves have been repressed for a long time, together, and from their perspective, -everything- from other people is likely just because they're a sharp.  With a tiered loyalty, it kind of reinforces testing.  It 'bumps' people.  So, for example.

Elves in tribe>Direct close-tribe relations (tribes your tribe interacts with steadily through contracts, business, social life, etc.)>other tribes in the neighborhood(You see them steadily, share news, know their kids, etc)>elven tribes in the community(They live in the 'rinth, same as you)>known elves of the city>outsiders (other races, elves who appear to be completely unknown).

I.e. A newbie elf will not be trusted.  But entrenching themselves into the community makes them climb quickly.  If they're just floating around ethereally, with no one getting to recognize them as part of the community, they'll never be trusted.  But elves band together, whether in tribe or not, just because of the idea that no one other than an elf can understand why it's important.  Other people, outsiders, other races...they can still climb up in those tiers, but that's where the testing is required.  As those tiers go up...the willingness to 'fuck them' goes down.  So...someone who is halfway up that scale?  You'd fuck them moderately, but never to the point where you're getting them into serious shit.  An outsider?  You'll let them die as long as you make fifty sid out of it.  Someone considered in tribe?  You won't fuck them at all.

EDITED TO ADD:  I'm still okay with elves as they are, but it's pretty obvious that more is wanted.  This is kind of a change that I think is relatively small and doesn't retcon the race as a whole, but allows people to play it in a more viable way for 'mainstreaming'.  And it explains why things like eastside exist.  Elves tend toward elves in all things.  They put roots together, even when out of tribe.  If it's not tribe, they still want the elven community over anyone else.

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD:  This would also reinforce that messing with a single elf is one thing.  Going into a place where elves are all over and messing with them is another thing entirely.  That practice that people have picked up of going to find elven muggers and letting them attack them, then defending themselves with 'he attacked me, not the other way around' ain't gonna fly.  You'd better have an in in the community, or they're all gonna be all over you for even getting tangled up with elves in the first place.  Maybe even just add...a couple quick quit places that are close together, but are mildly decorated so that PC elves can have a preference, and it takes the spot of 'neighborhood'.  That quit room has a fighting ring.  That quit room is a spice den sorta place.  etc etc etc.

Quote from: Armaddict on February 13, 2015, 03:20:58 PM
What I was getting at, was essentially a tiered sort of loyalty in city elven culture, where other elves are 'higher' by default.  It isn't that someone has to be being blatantly racist, it's that elves have been repressed for a long time, together, and from their perspective, -everything- from other people is likely just because they're a sharp.  With a tiered loyalty, it kind of reinforces testing.  It 'bumps' people.  So, for example.

Elves in tribe>Direct close-tribe relations (tribes your tribe interacts with steadily through contracts, business, social life, etc.)>other tribes in the neighborhood(You see them steadily, share news, know their kids, etc)>elven tribes in the community(They live in the 'rinth, same as you)>known elves of the city>outsiders (other races, elves who appear to be completely unknown).

With you on all of this, but I think you're missing one level of complexity.

Elves in tribe> Key Elf and Non-Elf contacts (which includes non-Elves your tribe is closely tied with> Direct close-tribe relations (tribes your tribe interacts with steadily through contracts, business, social life, etc.)>other tribes in the neighborhood(You see them steadily, share news, know their kids, etc)>elven tribes in the community(They live in the 'rinth, same as you)>known elves of the city>outsiders (other races, elves who appear to be completely unknown).

Quote from: Armaddict on February 13, 2015, 03:20:58 PM
If it's not tribe, they still want the elven community over anyone else.

That one addition would go against the above.  For example, I'm not going to piss of the Templarate because of Bob the Elf from down the street who's sister I once had a thing for.

Quote from: Armaddict on February 13, 2015, 03:20:58 PM
EDITED TO ADD:  I'm still okay with elves as they are, but it's pretty obvious that more is wanted.  This is kind of a change that I think is relatively small and doesn't retcon the race as a whole, but allows people to play it in a more viable way for 'mainstreaming'.  And it explains why things like eastside exist.  Elves tend toward elves in all things.  They put roots together, even when out of tribe.  If it's not tribe, they still want the elven community over anyone else.

EDITED AGAIN TO ADD:  This would also reinforce that messing with a single elf is one thing.  Going into a place where elves are all over and messing with them is another thing entirely.  That practice that people have picked up of going to find elven muggers and letting them attack them, then defending themselves with 'he attacked me, not the other way around' ain't gonna fly.  You'd better have an in in the community, or they're all gonna be all over you for even getting tangled up with elves in the first place.  Maybe even just add...a couple quick quit places that are close together, but are mildly decorated so that PC elves can have a preference, and it takes the spot of 'neighborhood'.  That quit room has a fighting ring.  That quit room is a spice den sorta place.  etc etc etc.

There is documented precedent for elves having a tendency to band together in times of duress:

Quote from: help allundean
   With the Dragon's arrival in the Known World, and the subsequent and
speedy fall of the Empire, the elven tribes banded together for a short
while (perhaps two hundred years). While closely grouped, the tribal
tongues grew more and more related, eventually becoming what is today
recognized as Allundean.

City elves -- most of all, Allanaki city elves who live in a city founded to diminish "the elven threat" (for real! (http://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,10535.msg832392.html#msg832392)), whose largest neighborhood is a trash-filled ghetto, who are frequently executed in the arena as a joke -- are certainly living under duress.  So I don't think Armaddict's suggestion here is really out of line with how we've seen elves behave in the past.

Now that I've calmed down some, I'd like to apologize to everyone if my tone seemed a little, hostile. The wounds are still fresh, and many. It's highly likely my perspective is quite a bit skewed, having played almost nothing but c-elves in the Allanak area almost the past year and a half (some venturing further out for extended periods of time), I have seen numerous behaviors I've perceived as questionable in Allanak, and Allanak is exceptionally thick-skulled when it comes to threat evaluation, so, when a situation from the past is brought up without the minute details that spell out exactly why certain actions took place (Necker was being a necker, so I took his vNPC baby, tore off its head, and shat in its mouth in the middle of the tavern, and I thought it was unfair that I was later murdered by his non-necker friends), I am, of course, inclined to side with the elf... which is why I'm taking some time off from playing them.

Anyway, I've rambled in a hostile manner enough, and intend to just shut up about it, because there's very little more I can say, and what has been said is, honestly, only from one side of the issue. It's up to me to explore the other side now and try and understand it, so maybe it finally makes sense.

I'd love to see an Elven quarter or neighborhood in the cities, apart from places like the 'rinth. 

And a dwarfen one.

I think elves get no benefits from their tribes, and they get the detriments. Say I was in a clan that -could- hire elves, I'd wonder if it was a scam by your tribe. And obviously you were never going to be loyal to -us- with your tribe there.  Unless you were the old cliche last survivor but I wouldn't believe that story anyway because elf.

Practically speaking with C-elves...

The problem is all c-elves have no common ground with each other. The way the docs are, Tribes come first... but theirs NO basic / vanilla tribes native to each city for players to use in backgrounds... Thus -every- player with a c-elf starting outside a clan (all of them) already has the hurtle of having to convince Y c-elf to join up and slide into X's goals and tribe. It fucks up interaction and makes it very awkward initially to the point where Tribal RP is skirted for the sake of just being able to Roleplay with another c-elf that you managed to find after 2 fucking RL months of gameplay...

Else if you want to just keep being indie and rogue, which is fine too and in that case you're probably a c-elf rogue gicker.

Also if half the ppl posting in this thread have played a c-elf and survived for a stretch within the last 6 months, we'd have a new clan for c-elves...) Srsly. Where the hell are you people? I'm sick of trying to be the change and reading this bullshit on the GDB.

You wouldn't have a new clan. Afaik, the only new player-run clans currently allowed are Merchant Houses. You gonna make House Necker?

If someone did a tribal elf clan rolecall people would probably be all over it, just saying.

As I've said before, I think all c-elves need is to be brought back in line with dwarves and half-elves.

I would utterly hate to see another staff supported elf-only tribe or clan (and you would need more than one in each region, one for tuluk, one for allanak, not to mention the rinth would also need one as well). These just do not work and I find them detrimental in the same way two clans which are practically the same clan that happen to sell different products, would compete with each other for the same type of player. Instead of being in the same clan and enjoying interaction which each other, no two groups of players doing the same thing in different compounds. Which often ended up in one clan was booming, the other clan suffered in lack of players. Even if we had 200 or 300 players, the result would play out the same, one clan would have a majority players due to better leadership the other would have very few. An all elf clan supported by staff would boom if people played elves, and would suck if people didn't. There would be no way to get rid of them or compete for players or get deeply involved with them if you didn't originally role an elf.

Player-run clans and organizations do not suffer from this, you can compete with them for jobs or employees, get rid of them, hire them, join them,etc etc. Furthermore there is nothing in the docs that keeps c-elves from joining or creating organizations/clans while still having virtual or PC tribe/family on the side. This is called getting a job, which you can be proud of and happy to do and/or belong to but, for an elf it is still just a job, a human might put his job before his family, but an elf wouldn't. The theft accept of the race makes them sound like bankers, trying to trick grandma and steal her house just because she's owns it and they don't. This might be a simple way of putting it all and there might be people ready to write an essay about how much more complex elves can be but there is really no need to over complicate things to the point the race becomes unplayable, boring or just plain isolating.

In short I think elves and the entire player-base will just benefit the most from continual support of player run clans and organizations. Again I don't believe there is any need to add elf-only, staff supported tribes or clans, especially ones that are as untouchable as the current staff supported clans.

As I've said before though what I do believe they need is the ability to participate in those staff supported clans they can join. While Rathustra idea of making cities so damn exciting that players wouldn't even dream of venturing out of them is interesting to say the least. Ultimately though many of the byn and kurac events have been about leaving the gate and trying to get shit done somewhere away from home. This formula can be changes a bit more to allow more missions around cities, sure, but these clans are what they are. Therefore, the best way to bring elves back in line with dwarves and half-elves with the least amount of work or hassle is as others have mentioned to simply allow them them to ride. My human ranger is still practically a city person, who happens to visit luirs and redstorm once in a while, not sure how this would be different for elves who on top of everything aren't able to become rangers. I also like the idea of just letting them ride more then giving them ability to walk or run in the desert. Frankly, it is easier and would solve most if not all their problems.

All this said, I don't have any vested interest in city elves. I don't care that much if they are changed or not. It is just I rather not see, player-made groups and other clans suffer in membership, because everyone is suddenly rolling an elf to join a new clan full of benefits and staff love.

Never thought I'd see someone argue against a couple elf clans, but you guys will argue anything, apparently.

Quote from: RogueGunslinger on February 14, 2015, 04:33:57 PM
Never thought I'd see someone argue against a couple elf clans, but you guys will argue anything, apparently.

Ahaha, yeah taking the time to express a difference in opinion on a forum designed for discussion, what was that guy thinking, lol. You know what, perhaps a generous dose of personal attacks and snide/snarky comments will make such unnecessary posts and arguments go away.  :P  

You were expressing an opinion. I expressed the difference of opinion.  ;)