Armageddon General Discussion Board

Read this important announcement:  https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60174.msg1101158.html#msg1101158

Here's a few questions that fellow staff asked when we first told them about this, so I thought I'd put them here:

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6 to 18 months isn't all that long for some people, going through the grind for such short periods kind of sucks.  Would you consider increasing how fast skills gain?

Yes, that's something we're considering.


How is this not just Arm 2.0 all over?

The difference is that Arm 2.0 was attempting to create a new game engine and a new world setting.  We are doing neither here.  We recognize that one of our strengths is our deep lore and history.  This allows us to keep that, and in fact, we can spend time more deeply exploring certain areas of it by focusing on it.


Would you consider running some skeletal version of the game during the downtime, to give player something to do so they don't lose interest?

We talked about it but decided against that idea.  One of the big reasons for the extended downtime is to give staff the ability to focus on preparing for the new game without the distraction of running the existing game.  Since this would be our first go at it, we want to be able to give it our full attention.


Will there be downtime between seasons?

Some, but we're uncertain exactly how much as of right now.  In my opinion, about one to two weeks between seasons should be the most.  We would want enough time for people to kind of reset their mind for the new season, but not too long to lose interest.


Why such a long downtime before the first season?

It's to give staff time to prepare and work on it without distraction from the current game.  The alternative would be for staff to ignore the current game in favor of the new, but that just means a bad experience for the current game, and we don't want that.  An extended downtime gives us the opportunity to put out what we hope to be a quality product.


Are you concerned that the initial extended downtime will mean losing players?

Yes, that is a concern and a risk.  Our hope is that the downtime gives people a break from the game and helps put a mental separation between the old and the new.  While we hope everyone returns, we are realistic and understand that may not be the case.  That said, we also anticipate this new model will help attract new players and may even entice some older players to return.


Is a season even going to be enough time for people to move up the ranks in an organization?

In addition to possibly increasing gain times on skills, we will investigate somewhat accelerated advancement as well as more options for advanced starts.  We will also be raising the glass ceiling wherever we can.  If someone can pull it off, we will allow the likes of player Red Robes, senior GMH members, senior nobles, senators, and similarly powerful positions in other groups.


If my character is going to die or get stored within 18 months, what impact can they really have?

With the previous question in mind, it is our vision to enable players the potential to impact the world in such a way that their legacy can live on in subsequent seasons.  Maybe Joe Salarr became so influential in season one, that during season two he's referred to commonly.

We know many of you will be concerned about legacy, the hundreds of pages of written documents, hundreds of NPCs and objects, etc. Nothing is being lost, and in fact most of what we have will be present in the various seasons.  Our vision is to continue the main timeline and storyline that we have been running for all these years.  It's just that focus will shift to different times and places in that same world. You may see books that your noble wrote still on the shelf in the estate.  You may see that the custom craft you submitted is still available.  Our lore and our world-building are amongst our greatest strengths, and we fully intend to lean into that.


If the game is going to take place in a smaller area, how will you handle the issue of people playing in or near the same areas?

We will be extending a greater amount of trust to the player base to abide by the rules we lay out, and to not use information from a previous character despite possibly being in a similar area.  If it happens, we will deal with the individual, and not engage in collective action.


It doesn't sound like you have a lot of information yet, why are you telling us this now without having much planned?

We have a lot planned already, more than we're communicating here, but the details are still being worked out.  But we thought it best to go ahead and inform the player base early instead of just dropping it with little warning later.  We will be releasing more information as we finalize it.


Character-wipe?  Does that mean karma too?

No, everyone keeps their accounts and karma levels, it's just a reset of characters for each new season.

I like it.  When should we expect it to take effect? This a it's gonna happen sometime mid 2024 or like before Christmas type thing.

Quote from: Pariah on December 05, 2023, 07:39:54 PMI like it.  When should we expect it to take effect? This a it's gonna happen sometime mid 2024 or like before Christmas type thing.

We'll go down for the changes early next year (shooting for January), down a couple of months.  So early Spring.

Biggest issue I have with this is character wipes at the end of every season basically pressuring people to not make characters towards the end of season. I personally wouldn't want to make a new character if I knew I only had 1-2 months to play said character. Lots of people play their characters for years so it's a weird choice.

Otherwise, good luck. I do love armageddon and I think it could use a breath of fresh air, as it's very obvious that Arm as it currently is feels like a super old system that's been patched and given make-overs here and there.

I do think it'd be nice to be able to play regular arm while we wait, even knowing that there'd be little to zero staff support.

One of the major things that happened when Armageddon 2.0 was announced, was a shift towards players making their characters "surviving the upcoming end-of-the-world".  This was accelerated by the Staff by bringing new plots to bring the end of the world.  The tone of the game shifted and players changed how they roleplayed their characters, and started to act uncharacteristically.

There also was a decision to allow players to play characters, classes, and roles that they were putting off for a later date - more magickers, sorcerers, and mindbenders.  This upset the balance, in addition to all the new end-of-the-world plots, that shifted gameplay to be exciting, but also had characters that were overpowered and overpowering.


Question:
How will you prevent such events from happening in the near future?



The estimated timelines for Armageddon 2.0 were grossly underestimated.  How will you change the current methods of implementation so that you can reach the projected timelines?

Has there been any consideration towards holding a Session Zero (https://www.level1geek.com/blog/dnd-session-0) between seasons to set player expectations for the next season, allow players to consider group roles (e.g. family roles), and things like that? If not, is it something staff would potentially consider?

I'm very wary of what Mansa mentioned. On top of it, knowing there's going to be another reset every x amount of months seems to be something that will only encourage more of such gameplay as opposed to with it being open ended. Rather it be determined by how plots turn out as opposed to a hard stop that cannot be avoided. It would give people a reason to work together against some threat as opposed to just go hog wild against one another.

Too much pre-determinism will lead to a fatalistic attitude since it won't matter in the long term and damage RP. Even now I'm seeing this in another game that's got the same plan, more or less.

Will we still be able to play things things resembling city characters if you guys have a focus say with the desert tribes? And for people who like more pve/exploration, are you closing those zones when you focus on city plots?

Quote from: geminferno on December 05, 2023, 07:52:07 PMYeah, so quick question: why the fuck would you do a casting call when you knew you were going to do this?

One of the common, well I don't know if that's the right word to use, but let's say one of my complaints about staff has always been the slowness to do things.  So I sorta applaud them for going, "We are gonna do this." and not turning it into a huge circle jerk of conversation.  At the end of the day, they run the shit, we play it.

I have a feeling with this shift from all the red tape to just fuckin doing it.  There are gonna be some growing pains.

Quote from: Pariah on December 05, 2023, 08:02:51 PM

Quote from: geminferno on December 05, 2023, 07:52:07 PMYeah, so quick question: why the fuck would you do a casting call when you knew you were going to do this?

One of the common, well I don't know if that's the right word to use, but let's say one of my complaints about staff has always been the slowness to do things.  So I sorta applaud them for going, "We are gonna do this." and not turning it into a huge circle jerk of conversation.  At the end of the day, they run the shit, we play it.

I have a feeling with this shift from all the red tape to just fuckin doing it.  There are gonna be some growing pains.

I understand that, but this is pretty much a slap in the face to everyone who worked hard on their applications, been waiting patiently for word on the results and to find out their character may need to be stored in less than a year. Not to mention NO ONE had been notified or even consulted the community that it would effect.

Regarding the length of seasons: how would this be determined? Would it be preset, or would there be discussions between staff and players on starting a new season vs. extending the current one?

I don't post here often, if at all, but I can't help sharing why I think this will be a killing blow for Armageddon in the hope we can steer towards less drastic solutions.

Why not fix the current game?
At least the existing game, while not perfect, is a known quantity. We will almost certainly lose players from an extended downtime (which will 100% be longer than projected), and returning players are then forced to love something they've never seen and cross their fingers that it's going to be better than what we currently have? It seems like a tall order.

A lot of people have worked incredibly hard to get to where we are, staff and players alike - not least in the last year with a number of struggles. Why risk all of that now when we're on the right path?

The staff resourcing needed is massive.
Developing new seasons every year is going to be a tremendous drain on already stretched staff resources. New areas, bugs, player and staff docs, plotlines, new clans, changes to the request tool, new forums...I'm not sure that every impact has been considered here.

Progression and advancement.
Dozens of people play Arm regularly because they want to advance, create legacy, whatever. Whether it be skills, political, or social. The impact that this change has on that is being severely underestimated - not to mention everything that the game currently has will be lost

Smaller focus, smaller playerbase.
If we shrink the areas people play in, it drastically shrinks economies, politics, cultures, adventure, and thus, plots. We won't be giving the game a chance to flourish, but we're setting the foundations for a more compact playerbase.

Is there any way that this doesn't go ahead at this point? Has every other possible alternative been exhausted?

In summary, I wanted to point something out:

Quote from: HalasterYou could start a hot dog stand now and return to find it blossomed into an MMH.

This promise is being focused on as a big upside to the change, but how important is this really to people? Part of playing a game like this is the here and now - live, real consequences that have immediate impact. Even if actions do become legacy in other seasons (assuming they are in the future, not the past), who's to say that matters to the players playing now if they don't even like the season in question?

To me, this is the kind of decision that requires a community vote or, at the very least, a staff-player discussion so that we can hear some of the reasoning for this, and so that some of the player feedback beyond the GDB can be considered before a final decision is made.

Quote from: geminferno on December 05, 2023, 08:05:13 PMI understand that, but this is pretty much a slap in the face to everyone who worked hard on their applications, been waiting patiently for word on the results and to find out their character may need to be stored in less than a year. Not to mention NO ONE had been notified or even consulted the community that it would effect.

I totally see where you're coming from, I don't mean to dismiss your sentiment or whatever.  But if he would have posted a "Hey I got this idea" post it would have ended up the same way the Karma change did from Brokkr.  Shit isn't even changed yet and most everyone -hates- it.  So had he just posted a brainstorm of the idea or conversation piece on it, it wouldn't at the end of the day change anything really.

They still wanna do it, they are still the people pushing the buttons to make shit work, paying for the server internet, fixing it everytime I break it.  Fixing the twenty bugs I report a month etc etc.  Multiplied by let's say 40-50 "regular" players (People who log in regularly and not just those casuals that do it once a month.)

At some point, they just gotta shit or get off the pot and I think these changes they are making, are that shitting point.

Sometimes you just gotta make decisions the kids don't like because it's in the best interest of the household.

Quote from: Pariah on December 05, 2023, 08:17:49 PMI totally see where you're coming from, I don't mean to dismiss your sentiment or whatever.  But if he would have posted a "Hey I got this idea" post it would have ended up the same way the Karma change did from Brokkr.  Shit isn't even changed yet and most everyone -hates- it.  So had he just posted a brainstorm of the idea or conversation piece on it, it wouldn't at the end of the day change anything really.

They still wanna do it, they are still the people pushing the buttons to make shit work, paying for the server internet, fixing it everytime I break it.  Fixing the twenty bugs I report a month etc etc.  Multiplied by let's say 40-50 "regular" players (People who log in regularly and not just those casuals that do it once a month.)

At some point, they just gotta shit or get off the pot and I think these changes they are making, are that shitting point.

Sometimes you just gotta make decisions the kids don't like because it's in the best interest of the household.

I still don't like being slapped in the face and forced to store a character I planned to have for years. And yeah, everyone hated the karma change and they're right not to do go through with it. Community outrage kills games and I'm sure this won't bode well for many other players who are voiceless.

No reason to play between now and the closing, right?  All characters will be erased in a month or so.  Then a couple months (or more?) game closed?  Going to take strong support from current players, to hang around, for an unknown outcome in the spring.  I just hope the game survives these changes.

i'm literally playing one of my bucket list, and I'm going to lose it in a few months?

(i removed a long section here lamenting a bunch of stuff I've been pushing and have seen near complete, or actually complteted, only to now find out it wont matter at all and is all for nothing) (mostly to prevent mods from doing so for FOIC reasons)

Ah man. I Don't know how I feel about this. This is a clear downscaling of our game in a MAJOR way. I get it, it's hard to keep staff, ect ect ect.

But there's marks made in this game by players who are no longer with us. And when I see them, I can remember my old friends. And I always wanted to leave one of those marks. Now I can't. Now i'll never get to be a page on 'longest lived' where people wax poetic about some dude of mine that lived a rl year and won arm, because It will never happen again.

I would have rather seen changes simply take place in the metaplot itself, allowing players to enact real true change to the game world, via their own towns, cities, or even becoming great generals to take down the current powers of the metaplot.

Will the current characters, between now and shutdown, have a large effect on the future?

Quote from: Cowboy on December 05, 2023, 08:27:30 PMNo reason to play between now and the closing, right?  All characters will be erased in a month or so.  Then a couple months (or more?) game closed?  Going to take strong support from current players, to hang around, for an unknown outcome in the spring.  I just hope the game survives these changes.

Given track records with such things. There's a good chance it will close, and that will be the end of it. No more arm. A large part of our lives gone.

When I first ready the announcement, my brain assumed the Date was April 1. Wow. This feels painful, like finding out your partner is cheating painful. With the same finality.

I may be better able to express my feelings after some much-needed sleep.

I don't mean to spam the thread with questions, but more keep coming to mind:

Will the game season structure ever revisit time that has already passed in the current "timeline"? If so, what steps would be taken (if any) to prevent a temporal paradox?

Would the "glass ceiling" on roles be raised in any way to give players more agency during seasons? Allowing players to play red robes, senior nobles, and similar roles? (I see this was already answered. Reading comprehension fail on my part - sorry!)

Would seasons be tailored towards putting players' characters all on one team, or would there still be an emphasis on player-generated conflict and "MCB"?

Quote from: CirclelessBard on December 05, 2023, 08:42:38 PMI don't mean to spam the thread with questions, but more keep coming to mind:

Will the game season structure ever revisit time that has already passed in the current "timeline"? If so, what steps would be taken (if any) to prevent a temporal paradox?

Would the "glass ceiling" on roles be raised in any way to give players more agency during seasons? Allowing players to play red robes, senior nobles, and similar roles?

Would seasons be tailored towards putting players' characters all on one team, or would there still be an emphasis on player-generated conflict and "MCB"?

They did say they were raising the glass ceiling. Which is neat ofc.

But people have broken the ceiling before. So it's not anything that's majorly exciting. I can see the positives here, ofcourse. There are other games, like LOTJ that do this successfully. And it could be fun. But there's a lot being lost here.

A lot.

God, i was so happy when Tuluk reopened. And now, there's going to be whole rl years where I might not even get to play in it again.

Quote from: Cowboy on December 05, 2023, 08:27:30 PMNo reason to play between now and the closing, right?  All characters will be erased in a month or so.  Then a couple months (or more?) game closed?  Going to take strong support from current players, to hang around, for an unknown outcome in the spring.  I just hope the game survives these changes.

I'll be honest, it really does bum me out. I love my current character and had long-term plans for them. But this basically means I'm going to be force-stored and never see any of my character's friends again.

Quote from: Kavrick on December 05, 2023, 09:01:28 PM

Quote from: Cowboy on December 05, 2023, 08:27:30 PMNo reason to play between now and the closing, right?  All characters will be erased in a month or so.  Then a couple months (or more?) game closed?  Going to take strong support from current players, to hang around, for an unknown outcome in the spring.  I just hope the game survives these changes.

I'll be honest, it really does bum me out. I love my current character and had long-term plans for them. But this basically means I'm going to be force-stored and never see any of my character's friends again.

SO MUCH THIS.

What's the first season's storyline going to be set in so we can start coming up with characters now instead of all rushing once it starts?

Quote from: Fredd on December 05, 2023, 09:04:23 PMSO MUCH THIS.

My current character is actually the first time I've played a character more than a month lol, now they'll get stored in around a month.

My biggest concern is that staff will misjudge the work involved with building and maintaining this new structure and then begin missing deadlines and never reach project completion. I have seen it more times than I care to count in various muds and other startup projects.

Question: What strategies will staff deploy to make sure the work gets done?

Quote from: Fredd on December 05, 2023, 08:28:02 PMBut there's marks made in this game by players who are no longer with us. And when I see them, I can remember my old friends. And I always wanted to leave one of those marks. Now I can't. Now i'll never get to be a page on 'longest lived' where people wax poetic about some dude of mine that lived a rl year and won arm, because It will never happen again.

It's not a full RL year, but you still have time. I think you've made a very substantial impact. Yes, it's annoying that neither of us are going to be on the Longest Lived Ever page, but I can't help wondering if the legacy OF the longest-lived characters was what contributed to the apparent stagnation. I don't think so, I've met precious few characters with over 6 RL months behind them IG, and none of them were particularly ossifying forces. Quite the contrary, they were often the most reliable characters for helping to build RP citywide.

That said, I dislike this plan. I've seen a lot of enthusiasm for areas outside Allanak in the past six months, with a concentration on legacy and culture that a lot of people genuinely liked and appreciated. Now, the game can be closed to those areas for two RL years before returning, but that's going to mean the people who liked playing in those areas will be dissatisfied. In fact, some of them might not choose to return to Armageddon at all. Even the impact of player actions in game will be drastically diminished by the fact we won't be able to play in those sections of the world again, except maybe hearing about rumors or seeing antagonists.

Yet this would be understandable, even worth the risk, if we hadn't previously seen what closing a sphere for a lengthy time would do to the health of the game in general. A lot of people are going to want to see metrics justifying locking them out of their preferred options, or they'll simply be as disengaged as they were during the closures of past years. In particular, if we insist that player legacies will carry over into future seasons, a lot of people would like to see how that would be justified. I try to uphold the memory of characters all the time IG, and have been part of plots resurrecting traditions that might otherwise have been completely lost. The effect this would have on those IG efforts is crushing, so people would want to know that they're not wasting their time before committing to the new structure.

Now, that doesn't mean you HAVE to do or say anything. But I'd definitely want to keep the more active segments of the playerbase before I looked to generate fresh enthusiasm from outside.

I'm pretty interested in checking out the game for its first season. Do y'all have a newsletter or something? Would be helpful to keep people abreast of the changes who might not check the GDB.

Thanks!

So, I am honestly quite often a voice against the grain, speaking positively rather than negatively.

So the salt is going to come out over this post... And I'm going to pre-emptively apologize for that and try to keep this respectful.

I JUST after 2 years of struggling got 1 Karma. I JUST STARTED playing a character that I felt I could enjoy long term. I JUST felt like I was getting the good bits started.

That's me though...

I try to think about everyone else, all the time.

How does this help or hinder other people?

How does this create a better environment for story telling?

It doesn't.

It creates different problems with different issues, and different skewed visions.

It creates more problems because this is a radical departure from how the game was previously played.

It creates more problems because it was a decision affecting the world we are invested in. Made without the consensus that it was a required one.

Make a fucking new mud.

Don't call this new game Armageddon.

Don't call this new game Armageddon 2.

It is a spin off.

It is a creation based on.

But it is not a logical progression of the game.

It's a deconstruction of it.

It's a destruction of it.

EDIT: I'm leaving this up, but my opinion on this issue keeps fucking swinging back and forth. And I don't know why.

So all existing plotlines have roughly 1 month to conclude?
Things that may have been in works for RL years will end, regardless.

Will staff be providing support in wrapping those plots up in a satisfying way, or be too busy with the new project?

Quote from: Kavrick on December 05, 2023, 09:06:35 PM

Quote from: Fredd on December 05, 2023, 09:04:23 PMSO MUCH THIS.

My current character is actually the first time I've played a character more than a month lol, now they'll get stored in around a month.

That's rough man. Arguably, you don't start playing arm until after the 1 month mark.

It takes about that to establish a solid connection with the character for me, and a real bond with other characters I feel. And that. That's why I play this game. That living vicariously through my fantasy character escape that comes from being able to play the character long enough to establish those connections with others.

Quote from: Fredd on December 05, 2023, 09:11:11 PMIt takes about that to establish a solid connection with the character for me, and a real bond with other characters I feel. And that. That's why I play this game. That living vicariously through my fantasy character escape that comes from being able to play the character long enough to establish those connections with others.

Yeah I 100% agree. About after a month I've noticed people start recognizing your character and actually understanding and expecting a certain personality from them. It's real nice.

Can you win a season?  8)




I'm kinda upset, grieving the loss of my current character and the world they can exist in.

I think this could be great for the game, but it may be horrible for the 'immersive, consistent Gameworld'

I hope it's done on a trial basis with the possibility of snapping back to something more static.


Also question, I see the pros and the cons but if everyone focuses on the cons, are staff willing to consider keeping it the way it is?

Quote from: Kavrick on December 05, 2023, 09:01:28 PM

Quote from: Cowboy on December 05, 2023, 08:27:30 PMNo reason to play between now and the closing, right?  All characters will be erased in a month or so.  Then a couple months (or more?) game closed?  Going to take strong support from current players, to hang around, for an unknown outcome in the spring.  I just hope the game survives these changes.

I'll be honest, it really does bum me out. I love my current character and had long-term plans for them. But this basically means I'm going to be force-stored and never see any of my character's friends again.

Same. This makes me want to store my current PC and play something else since I know they will be force stored in a month anyway. I had high hopes this would be one of my longest lived PCs too. I am bummed out, but I'm trying to keep my hopes up. It could still very much be fun! If the seasons last closer to the 18 month end of the bracket given, that gives people who do play long-lived PCs a chance to have them still.

I am super bummed out about the game being basically shut down for a few months, I understand the reason, 100%, but I get on Armageddon almost daily when the mood strikes me so.. I mean I guess I'll have more time for reading but I like Armageddon because it's like cowriting a story with others. Reading with participation! XD


Now, questions:

So is the new karma system being scrapped and replaced by this, or will the new karma system be added in when the game opens back up?

If I want to play a full class vivaduan/drovian, do I need to do it now before the game shuts down or will it still be an option in Armageddon Seasons?

Thryzn tend to be more isolated from most other player locations, will they still be available to play?

In the week or two in between seasons will information about the new upcoming season be put out so that players can think of ideas for character concepts or family role calls etc?

I've gotten a VERY concerning number of farewells. From players who wouldn't normally do this sort of thing.

Edit: Enough farewells that my social group that I play with just crumbled. This next month or so is going to be... Rough. At best.

Edit:  Also a bit touching, honestly. In a very sad way.

Quote from: slipshod on December 05, 2023, 09:10:25 PMSo all existing plotlines have roughly 1 month to conclude?
Things that may have been in works for RL years will end, regardless.

Will staff be providing support in wrapping those plots up in a satisfying way, or be too busy with the new project?

As I'm understanding this - the "wrap-up" will consist of "to be continued" in the next "season."  For example, if you're playing Joe the hunter who has just finally discovered the secret cave his momma told him about just before she died - then during Season One, that cave has now been spellunked, and named Joe's Momma's Cave, and a treasure has been found containing clues to the location of Steinal. This Season One's function is for players to find Steinal. All thanks to YOUR character, who discovered the cave, back in -this- incarnation of the game.

Sounds promising, and it may just be the only thing that can revitalize this undeniably dying game. I'm just leery of the whole "taking the game offline for a few months" part. Seems like it would be better to leave it running until Season One is ready, even if it means there won't be much staff overseeing the current version. I don't really see an upside to shutting the game down for months. It's likely that a number of players would drift away entirely in the course of such a long downtime.

Are there any significant code changes on the table? I think there's a dire need for overhauls of the way combat skills are raised and stats are rolled, so if that's within the realm of possibility, I'd like to write up some proposed changes in a different thread.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 05, 2023, 09:26:44 PM

Quote from: slipshod on December 05, 2023, 09:10:25 PMSo all existing plotlines have roughly 1 month to conclude?
Things that may have been in works for RL years will end, regardless.

Will staff be providing support in wrapping those plots up in a satisfying way, or be too busy with the new project?

As I'm understanding this - the "wrap-up" will consist of "to be continued" in the next "season."  For example, if you're playing Joe the hunter who has just finally discovered the secret cave his momma told him about just before she died - then during Season One, that cave has now been spellunked, and named Joe's Momma's Cave, and a treasure has been found containing clues to the location of Steinal. This Season One's function is for players to find Steinal. All thanks to YOUR character, who discovered the cave, back in -this- incarnation of the game.

How did you come to understand this?  i hope a staff person will still address my question.

So...not April Fool's Day...

It's early December...what's the catch?

Hey look, 16 players...

So seriously...usually I go with what is happening...but really?

Have to say this is extremely disappointing.  All that history, 30 years of it for me...

This does feel like Arm 2.0.

Ugh...

So I don't have a huge stake in this, I'm one of the players that no longer plays.  I have been expecting this game to close for a while now, but I didn't expect this.  I commend the current staff for trying to come up with a way to revive their game.

That said, while this does intrigue me and I can see myself playing, there is a big elephant in the room with this concept that I think may need more workshopping.  The problem is inherent in what we are seeing now.  The advantage of people being able to make real change in the game is nice, but that will generally reward long term play.  People are currently talking about leaving the game early, since nothing really matters.  That may or may not be true and I have no interest in debating it, but the sense is certainly there.  This means the next couple months will probably see a true soft death of the game, before season 1 launches and the game will probably see a revival at least for a short term. 

There are however a couple of big problems with this.  First, the revival will likely see a lot of players who all come in fresh at the same time, which can be jarring and something arm frankly has never had to deal with, not a biiig big deal, but still weird.

The second problem though is that the season by it's nature is going to recreate this soft death scenario, worse yet, people will know sooner and probably start reacting to that sooner too.  I expect because of the nature of this concept what Arm can expect is a big jump in players on season start followed by a slow exodus as the game progresses.  People dying normally will hasten this as the game will look less and less like you can "make a difference".  In other words, this winding down is going to be a constant problem and I suspect it might actually kill the game.

I'm not saying a big change like this isn't called for, or that this is a bad idea, just that I think you should really workshop this idea of closed seasons to see if you can't find a way to have your cake and eat it too in terms of players feeling like they need to quit and give up the game until a new season drops.


One suggestion I can make which, lets be honest, this suggestion is stupid.  As I non-player I also don't really care what happens, but I'll make it anyway.  So before you read it, disclaimer, this idea is really really stupid.

What if, instead of closing the game when a season ends, you leave it opened but simple stop letting people apply into it.    People will be able to play out their games to their hearts content and will naturally retire as the game empties.  This will also stagger people entering the new game so that everyone doesn't just start new.. well they sort of will, but it would be different.  I realize this might be a little harder to manage and maybe with the way the world is built impossible!  But I think the season end timer, just like the current game end timer is a death sentence to this new idea.  Oh incase this wasn't clear in my dumb idea, I mean don't close out the season, just close out apping it, people can app into the new season, so I'm effectively saying allow two seasons to exist at once in a way.

Quote from: slipshod on December 05, 2023, 09:29:42 PMHow did you come to understand this?  i hope a staff person will still address my question.

By reading Halaster's post, and reading his responses in the ongoing Discord discussion. I might not be understanding it correctly, but that's why I put "as I understand it" in my answer.

Quote from: Supified on December 05, 2023, 10:05:55 PMThe second problem though is that the season by it's nature is going to recreate this soft death scenario, worse yet, people will know sooner and probably start reacting to that sooner too.  I expect because of the nature of this concept what Arm can expect is a big jump in players on season start followed by a slow exodus as the game progresses.  People dying normally will hasten this as the game will look less and less like you can "make a difference".  In other words, this winding down is going to be a constant problem and I suspect it might actually kill the game.

There is a difference between a plot being wrapped up neatly, with a fufiling end... And whatever this is.

Y'all act like nobody's played D&D ever. This idea is AWESOME. The only way it would work is definitely to accelerate the skill-up process, granted, but I'm all about this. I see the grief in this thread, and I too don't want to lose my current PC. But like Halaster said, we've been steadily losing players for years and years. It will drive some of our players away, and it will intrigue other players back.

I haven't seen the game with over 35 players peak in a couple years now. When Tuluk reopened, it spread our already-thin playerbase out even more. The only alternative I can see to the "season approach" would be to close one of the city-states down again. Heck, let's try Allanak this time! It worked once before, right?

But seriously, as someone who joined Armageddon in 2006, I think this idea has a lot of merit. I'm a passionate and regular D&D player (my DM and fellow players are ex-Armers). We've played 18-month campaigns that were UNFORGETTABLE in their scope and merit. If my DM offered a campaign in an Armageddon setting, I'd be ecstatic. I don't think a rewarding game season is impossible for ~35 people and ~5-8 staffers. In fact, I'm excited to see where this goes. With this ratio of staff to players, I have confidence that each one of our experiences during that time would be satisfying, especially with the high level of creativity we all need to display as members of an RP-enforced game.

Is it the same game world and game lore? Yes.  Is it still free to play? Yes. Is it still perma-death? Maybe?

Fucking count me IN.

Not ignoring you guys, I've just been busy in a lightning-round in Discord.  Usiku and I will start answering these in the morning!

Quote from: Ourla on December 05, 2023, 10:33:11 PMY'all act like nobody's played D&D ever.

Please do not take this aggressively.

I'm not here to play DnD. I'm here to log into a living, breathing world where I have a character I'm engrossed in, with friends they have connections to. I'm here to live vicariously through my characters.

When I play DnD, i don't care if my guy lives or dies, I'm rerolling with the same 4 players, and those people are my draw. Armageddon distinctly tries to prevent this OOC connection, focusing it all IC.

2 different styles.

Quote from: Ourla on December 05, 2023, 10:33:11 PMY'all act like nobody's played D&D ever. This idea is AWESOME. The only way it would work is definitely to accelerate the skill-up process, granted, but I'm all about this. I see the grief in this thread, and I too don't want to lose my current PC. But like Halaster said, we've been steadily losing players for years and years. It will drive some of our players away, and it will intrigue other players back.

I hate to say it but announcing out of the blue, 'Hey guys, in a month we're storing EVERYONE'S characters, ta-tah!' is probably going to drive more people away than bring people back. And I'm not really a doomsayer.

Quote from: Kavrick on December 05, 2023, 10:49:31 PM

Quote from: Ourla on December 05, 2023, 10:33:11 PMY'all act like nobody's played D&D ever. This idea is AWESOME. The only way it would work is definitely to accelerate the skill-up process, granted, but I'm all about this. I see the grief in this thread, and I too don't want to lose my current PC. But like Halaster said, we've been steadily losing players for years and years. It will drive some of our players away, and it will intrigue other players back.

I hate to say it but announcing out of the blue, 'Hey guys, in a month we're storing EVERYONE'S characters, ta-tah!' is probably going to drive more people away than bring people back. And I'm not really a doomsayer.

It's definitely made me lose all trust in staff.

Current talk on discord really implies that there is no hard direction the staff are following and no major project management for what comes next. No plans for any major changes to the only play center the game will have. Just hopes and dreams and blind optimism for what comes next, but you can't run a mud off of that. The game would be better off just coasting on what it has than burning everything to the ground and hoping to make what you can better.

I have pretty much lost all interest in playing out the rest of my 1 year old character, and when the game stores my character, I'm just quitting the game.

So what is the first phase going to be?  I mean overarching shit going on?

Are docs gonna be changed because we are in a different time and different powers that be etc?

If you do speed up gains for the faster pace of play, I'd recommend more of a bump each skill gain and less shortening of times.  So you don't get dudes just killing scrab all day long forever hoping to abuse their timers.

Will we see Kanks return if we time warp to before kankageddon?

Does this open up plots and chances to add time magick to the game?

Quote from: Shaydee on December 05, 2023, 09:16:49 PMNow, questions:

So is the new karma system being scrapped and replaced by this, or will the new karma system be added in when the game opens back up?

If I want to play a full class vivaduan/drovian, do I need to do it now before the game shuts down or will it still be an option in Armageddon Seasons?

Thryzn tend to be more isolated from most other player locations, will they still be available to play?

In the week or two in between seasons will information about the new upcoming season be put out so that players can think of ideas for character concepts or family role calls etc?

I will do my best to answer some questions as well:

So is the new karma system being scrapped and replaced by this, or will the new karma system be added in when the game opens back up?

The new karma system is part of the exciting changes coming with Seasons. Our intention is for it to be fully implemented and operational when Season 1 kicks off, offering a fresh experience for all players.

If I want to play a full class vivaduan/drovian, do I need to do it now before the game shuts down or will it still be an option in Armageddon Seasons?

No need to rush! The opportunity to play a full class vivaduan/drovian will still be available in future Seasons. While we are currently in discussions about classes and races for Season 1, there are no plans for drastic changes to class cut-offs or race options. Future Seasons might bring exciting variations, so keep an eye out for what Season 2 or 3 might unveil—perhaps mundane only or magick only scenarios!

Thryzn tend to be more isolated from most other player locations, will they still be available to play?

Absolutely! While Thryzn's potential availability is still under discussion due to their isolated nature, nothing is off the table. The specifics about where they will fit in for future Seasons will become clearer once dates are set, and playbooks are established. Keep an eye out for more definitive answers on the races, classes, and clans available in upcoming weeks.

In the week or two in between seasons will information about the new upcoming season be put out so that players can think of ideas for character concepts or family role calls etc?

There will be ample time between Seasons, typically a week or two, during which information about the upcoming Season will be released. This period is designed to allow players to brainstorm character concepts, think about family role calls, and prepare for the new Season. The goal is to work collaboratively with players to create deeper and more meaningful roles, ensuring everyone can dive into Season 1 with a well-thought-out character and storyline.

Quote from: mansa on December 05, 2023, 07:50:02 PMOne of the major things that happened when Armageddon 2.0 was announced, was a shift towards players making their characters "surviving the upcoming end-of-the-world".  This was accelerated by the Staff by bringing new plots to bring the end of the world.  The tone of the game shifted and players changed how they roleplayed their characters, and started to act uncharacteristically.

There also was a decision to allow players to play characters, classes, and roles that they were putting off for a later date - more magickers, sorcerers, and mindbenders.  This upset the balance, in addition to all the new end-of-the-world plots, that shifted gameplay to be exciting, but also had characters that were overpowered and overpowering.

Question:
How will you prevent such events from happening in the near future?

How will you change the current methods of implementation so that you can reach the projected timelines?

How will you prevent such events from happening in the near future?

Players interested in participating in the current timeline with a specific character concept are more than welcome to do so. All existing rules and regulations regarding special applications and sponsored roles will remain unchanged as we approach the closure of this version of the game. In cases where players deliberately create characters for disruptive, griefing, or trolling purposes, our staff will be vigilant and take necessary measures to prevent any such issues from arising.

How will you change the current methods of implementation so that you can reach the projected timelines?

While I wasn't part of the staff during Arm 2.0, my understanding is that they encountered significant challenges, primarily because they undertook an extensive overhaul by building a new code base, introducing new races, classes, rooms, and more. The sheer magnitude of the undertaking, coupled with the attempt to maintain the existing Arm 1.0, led to significant difficulties, and as we all know, Arm 2.0 did not succeed. In our current approach, we are opting for a more focused strategy—shrinking rather than rebuilding from scratch. The dedicated time during the game shutdown will ensure a more successful transition.

This sounds like a lot of work with a lot of ways it could go wrong. Is there a back up plan in case staff isn't able to implement this seasonal thing or if it just doesn't work out as planned?

What happens to the game's various code and documentation in case this doesn't work out and the game shutters? Will the current staff release it?

Character wipes? Thanks for all the fun times Armageddon. Been playing here for over twenty years, and with no opportunity for longevity, the game's direction won't be for me. I've had a beloved character I spent countless hours forced stored when Tuluk shut down, and now I have another beloved character I'm going to lose him as well?

I know it's not an airport and don't need to announce my departure, but it's fair so the players who know me know what's happened to my character.

All the best everyone.

Evilone/Centurion out.

Oh, one last thing. 2 out of the 4 big RPI's in my time of playing that have tried to shut down and change direction, never opened again.

Uhhh...no thanks. Character wipes? Every PC has a time limit?

Good luck everyone who remains.

I'm not really interested in playing events that have already passed, they will always end the same way with the PCs as observers and it sounds like a LOT of work for staff. But I could see how certain players would enjoy this. I hope it goes well for those who continue to play when this change takes place.

meanwhile, whatever left of Armageddon's old sprit:

(https://media.tenor.com/_icxPGjIITIAAAAC/south-park-kill-me.gif)

By everyone, staff & players alike. I think my journey is over, it's been a great 23 years. I don't have much regrets.

This has got to be a joke.. 3 decades worth of a game that staff were only saying a few weeks ago 'we have loads of unique new log ins and feel confident in the changes we have come up with for karma', before dropping this nuclear bomb.
The karma change didn't go down very well with many.. this just a killswitch.

Questions :

Where is the vote on this to your current playerbase?

Where is the talks about this being an option before you pulled the trigger, to your current player base?

Do you even CARE about your current playerbase?  To people that have been playing this game for years? To not value their opinions to even ASK if they want this?

If you want to do such a brutal change, why not open another server to do this little idea of yours to see it works instead of literally destroying everything many of us love??

What on earth was the point in putting so many rolecalls out recently???
To set people up, and then slap them with 'but you only get it for a month before we wipe it haha!'
Not to mention everyone playing current beloved characters, long lived characters, and telling them btw they are gunna be entirely wiped and gone next month!

There is literally still 2 rolecalls out asking for nobles and a Salarri!!!

Seriously..

Would you consider shorter seasons which each take place in a smaller part of the game world? 3 or 4 months so that players can sit out a season

As a player who specifically only plays long term characters with long term goals, this is heartwrenching and extremely discouraging :(

 

Will be answering some questions from this thread shortly.

I think this is my first time posting on the forums ever, though I doubt this makes much of a difference.

Here's my suggestion: Instead of this massive across the board change. Have staff focus on certian areas of the game every 4 months. For 4 months, it's Allanak, for 4 months, it's Tuluk.

You don't need to have plots going in every single area of the game constantly because players make their own plots and their own stories. This allows you to focus on one area of the game and consolodate your staff power.
It's basically what you're going to be doing next year but without killing off all the players and forcing your staff to write up new lore constantly for each season. Players can still go around and making their own plots while staff focus on the big stories and world/area changing plots to a specific area.

Quote from: CirclelessBard on December 05, 2023, 07:54:32 PMHas there been any consideration towards holding a Session Zero (https://www.level1geek.com/blog/dnd-session-0) between seasons to set player expectations for the next season, allow players to consider group roles (e.g. family roles), and things like that? If not, is it something staff would potentially consider?

While we haven't firmed up exactly how we will do each season launch yet, this is something I have been mulling over specifically. To me it seems a no brainer that we will need some kind of 'session zero' period, perhaps a few days for folks in sponsored roles/set roles to gather OOC'ly to discuss and then a few days of IC experimentation and settling in before the doors are flung open fully. This is all purely me brainstorming at this point and it hasn't been discussed with the rest of the team yet, but seems obvious to me!

Quote from: papertiger on December 05, 2023, 07:57:18 PMWill we still be able to play things things resembling city characters if you guys have a focus say with the desert tribes? And for people who like more pve/exploration, are you closing those zones when you focus on city plots?

We will be endeavoring to make sure there is a bit of something for everyone in each season.

Quote from: Gravity on December 05, 2023, 08:17:18 PMIs there any way that this doesn't go ahead at this point? Has every other possible alternative been exhausted?

No and yes. To be frank, this is really our opportunity to try and give this game a new lease of life - otherwise it is simply circling the drain and we do not want to just sit here and play hospice care to something we care about if we think there are options to give it a better chance. We are presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements. We are already receiving complaints from sponsored roles that they aren't getting the support they need and plots have been left hanging for great swathes of time. Our current situation is absolutely unsustainable.

We didn't want to permanently close large portions of the game (a la Tuluk), we didn't want to permanently destroy large portions of the game that people love and destroy all the history and legacy, we didn't want to sit back and watch the game die a slow and painful death while the last remaining staff just fielded endless complaints of dissatisfaction before finally shuttering, we didn't want to just shut down the game.

So this is what we are doing. This allows us to maintain the exact same world that you know and love, all of it, but we will just play bits of it at a time.

Quote from: Fredd on December 05, 2023, 08:28:02 PMBut there's marks made in this game by players who are no longer with us. And when I see them, I can remember my old friends. And I always wanted to leave one of those marks.

Those marks aren't going anywhere and you can still leave your marks.

Quote from: Krath on December 05, 2023, 08:29:50 PMWill the current characters, between now and shutdown, have a large effect on the future?

They absolutely can, yes.

Quote from: CirclelessBard on December 05, 2023, 08:42:38 PMI don't mean to spam the thread with questions, but more keep coming to mind:

Will the game season structure ever revisit time that has already passed in the current "timeline"? If so, what steps would be taken (if any) to prevent a temporal paradox?

Would the "glass ceiling" on roles be raised in any way to give players more agency during seasons? Allowing players to play red robes, senior nobles, and similar roles? (I see this was already answered. Reading comprehension fail on my part - sorry!)

Would seasons be tailored towards putting players' characters all on one team, or would there still be an emphasis on player-generated conflict and "MCB"?

The core of the seasons will be chronologically consistent, just moving between areas and story arcs (much like you would see across the seasons of a tv show). However, there are ideas for smaller 'spin off' seasons that might explore historical events. These are likely to be shorter seasons, the 6 monthers rather than the 18 monthers, since player agency to change the main outcomes will be limited.

Different seasons may have different set ups in terms of 'teams', though there should be a good mix of metaplot orientated conflict and still room for player driven conflict.

Quote from: askaran on December 05, 2023, 09:05:04 PMWhat's the first season's storyline going to be set in so we can start coming up with characters now instead of all rushing once it starts?

That's already outlined above!

Quote from: Master Color on December 05, 2023, 09:07:48 PMQuestion: What strategies will staff deploy to make sure the work gets done?

Reasonable expectations at the outset, utilising the core skillsets of our current staff members, clear prioritisation of requirements and general project management methodologies.

Quote from: Is Friday on December 05, 2023, 09:09:23 PMI'm pretty interested in checking out the game for its first season. Do y'all have a newsletter or something? Would be helpful to keep people abreast of the changes who might not check the GDB.

We will have an opt in newsletter yes. Nice to see you by the way!

Quote from: slipshod on December 05, 2023, 09:10:25 PMSo all existing plotlines have roughly 1 month to conclude?
Things that may have been in works for RL years will end, regardless.

Will staff be providing support in wrapping those plots up in a satisfying way, or be too busy with the new project?

Most of the staff will be focussing hard on the current players who have stories and plots that they want to move forward in the current timeframe and to try and establish impact for the future seasons. It will probably be more than one month, but that will depend on the current players and situation.

Quote from: slipshod on December 05, 2023, 09:29:42 PM

Quote from: Lizzie on December 05, 2023, 09:26:44 PMAs I'm understanding this - the "wrap-up" will consist of "to be continued" in the next "season."  For example, if you're playing Joe the hunter who has just finally discovered the secret cave his momma told him about just before she died - then during Season One, that cave has now been spellunked, and named Joe's Momma's Cave, and a treasure has been found containing clues to the location of Steinal. This Season One's function is for players to find Steinal. All thanks to YOUR character, who discovered the cave, back in -this- incarnation of the game.

How did you come to understand this?  i hope a staff person will still address my question.

Lizzie has the crux of it yes. Exactly this.

Quote from: Olafson on December 05, 2023, 09:47:47 PMHave to say this is extremely disappointing.  All that history, 30 years of it for me...

All that history isn't going anywhere. It will be right there in the game where it always was. This is the option that allows us to preserve the most history.

Quote from: Supified on December 05, 2023, 10:05:55 PMFirst, the revival will likely see a lot of players who all come in fresh at the same time, which can be jarring and something arm frankly has never had to deal with, not a biiig big deal, but still weird.

The second problem though is that the season by it's nature is going to recreate this soft death scenario, worse yet, people will know sooner and probably start reacting to that sooner too.  I expect because of the nature of this concept what Arm can expect is a big jump in players on season start followed by a slow exodus as the game progresses.  People dying normally will hasten this as the game will look less and less like you can "make a difference".  In other words, this winding down is going to be a constant problem and I suspect it might actually kill the game.

These are really great points and absolutely things we will be thinking about how to creatively resolve. Some spitball ideas are for initial sponsored roles/core roles - having a 'session zero' type week for them to get all comfy and cosy, perhaps allowing small waves of PCs to app in at a time, applying app'd for or potentially random skill bumps and boosts to PCs who start at the outset so everyone isn't a total newb at the same time. For the second issue.. Perhaps seeking to end the season with a 'bang' so to speak, a big event that creates something of a story cliffhanger for the next season but something that folks will want to be involved in even if it's with throwaway PCs, to allow players to animate NPCs in the final days if they don't have a PC or to allow high impact 'flavour' PCs to be app'd in towards the end or a combination of.. Or other ideas TBD! But we are thinking about it.

Quote from: Kestria on December 06, 2023, 03:50:15 AMDo you even CARE about your current playerbase?  To people that have been playing this game for years? To not value their opinions to even ASK if they want this?

We do care and this hasn't been an easy decision. I know what it's like to lose a long-lived PC so I can empathise with how players are feeling about losing their current PCs and arcs, but we are prioritising the future of the game as a whole. We have also been paying attention to what players have been saying they want for the past months and this is a solution that ticks off the 'most' wants.

Quote from: Lotion on December 06, 2023, 04:08:16 AMWould you consider shorter seasons which each take place in a smaller part of the game world? 3 or 4 months so that players can sit out a season

Absolutely, eventually. This would be another kind of 'spin off'.

I think it's understandable that some players might feel aggrieved but something had to be done. The game had clearly stagnated. I left nearly 10 years ago and came back about 5 months ago. I was expecting to find it tricky to get back into the swing of things but basically nothing had changed and was immediately back in the groove. If the game is slowly bleeding players then at some point in the probably not so distant future it's going to hit a critical point where people type Who, see X number of players in this very large world and they just quit en masse. Then there's no game at all for anyone anymore. So on that basis alone I think this new version is worth giving a shot. Getting more players into a more condensed area is something I've felt for a long time had to be done. It might all out work, it might not. If it doesn't we end up in the same place we're headed to now anyway.

I'm a little unsure about the seasons idea. I can see the idea behind it as it allows us to jump around and keep things fresh. I think if we are going the seasons route it'd be better to lean towards longer runs. For example, with my current character it's taken me about 5 RL months to get him into the position I'd envisaged he could get into. It'd probably be interesting to see some stats though about the length of character lives across the player population. I know in general we have some players who have had some really long lived PCs but in my experience it's relatively rare to see many players go for more than 12 RL months in a role. But I understand the wrench of not being able to go past a certain point no matter what you do. It's definitely a departure and I have mixed feelings on it.

I'd also have concerns about the world pop thinning out towards the end of seasons where some PCs die and people just can't be bothered to make a new PC before the next season starts. Maybe some thought could be given to having some short-lived flavour roles ready to go that players could drop into as required.

But overall I think it's good that something radical is being done to try and address the long-term future of the game. It's absolutely needed. I think a bit of self-sacrifice is required now for this to have a chance to work and for us all to have a game to play in the long run.

This feels consistent with the lack of respect for player advocacy, time, and creativity.

Communication and collaboration involving the playerbase would have been nice. I don't think 'seasons' included a playerwipe, (and while I do see the benefit of it, this only creates a new problem with long lived PCs).

Right now its a huge challenge to ousts entrenched, long lived PCS. Next, it will be "Oh, I didn't see you at the start of the season, you're probably not important" Oh, I died 3 months in, guess I'll wait until next season.

Lots of issues, and even if we could address the pros and cons as a community, players are again disregarded. Staff will be fine with less players, which means they would be fine with each and every one of individually leaving (unless you were told otherwise.)

Not a question but an Idea I came up with during in discord:

Every other season will be a long, continuing story, with "break" seasons in between, then you pick back up where you left off, if you want to.  The break seasons could be anywhere from a month to six months long before the main story picks back up.

Season one could end in the discovery of the ruins of Steinal, season two would be a flashback of what life was like there, and season three would pick back up with where season one left off, us oocly knowing was steinial was like and making those discorveries IG with our new or old PCs.

This would mitigate what to me is the worst part of the change, character wipes. You still have your mainline story character until you choose to store it, but you still get to "do something new" once or twice a year.

The draw of Arm to me as a kid and even as an adult is that it is a persistent world. The idea that you can jump in at anytime to see how the world is progressing (or not) and just dive in. This to me kills the idea of that, the spirit of an RPI lies in that concept whether there is a vision for that or not, taking the game offline I think is a mistake. I do not think that this will bring in more players, it will in fact drive away those players that seek that persistent world feeling, the feeling of a novel that is actively taking place. If the goal was to consolidate you will do so but you will also have a much smaller game, on a much smaller scale, that isn't an RPI anymore.

I'll ask the question again that were not answered, accompanied with the following.

Why not just.. leave the game  running and build what you're building on the test server, and then have a few days down time, not a few /months/?  Months of not being able to play at all is going to destroy the playerbase.


And then the others that were not answered :


Where is the vote on this to your current playerbase?

Where is the talks about this being an option before you pulled the trigger, to your current player base?

Why not open another server to do this little idea of yours to see it works instead of kill switching the main game?

What was the point in putting so many rolecalls out recently?

I came back after a multi year break, began working on a character and this is what happens?

This is the sort of idea someone completely divorced from reality would come up with.

I only care about Armageddon when I care about my character. You're going to force store my character?

This is completely insane.

Quote from: zilcho on December 06, 2023, 08:20:45 AMI came back after a multi year break, began working on a character and this is what happens?

This is the sort of idea someone completely divorced from reality would come up with.

I only care about Armageddon when I care about my character. You're going to force store my character?

This is completely insane.

This is an interesting point and I feel cuts to the heart of what is a problem with Armageddon in the first place . The game is both set up for the notion of character driven stories, that being the beating heart, but also for very short lived characters.  From the NPCS to the views on death and murder, to the games policies, they're all designed to make characters lives a flash in the pan.  Combine that with the very thick glass ceiling and you can see a problem with how if you play the game one way, it gets frustrating fast.

This new system is aiming, it would appear, to address this two ways.  One by forcing characters lives to be shortened, but also making their actions more meaningful.

I still think the idea needs more workshoping, but leaving arm as is from a staff point of view, appears to be death of the game anyway.  People who argue they should just let it die need to realize these staff maybe would rather not be hospice caretakers for a dying game and already are in a position where they can't find enough people to staff their roles. 

What people on this thread may need to wrap their heads around is that the option isn't between this and letting the game go on as it is for as long as it is, but rather this or the game closing sooner because staff do not have the will to continue staffing as it is.  Pure speculation on my part. 

I think, fundamentally, some people fail to grasp how connected some of us can get to our little characters and their little lives.

My character's life is no longer in my hands. My character will end in X months.

This drives a complete stake in the heart of the game for me. I remember characters who lived for in-game years and I aspired to be one of them. That's gone.

If the big reason for this happening is dwindling player numbers, how exactly is this going to attract or retain more people than our existing game? Doesn't this new direction make that far less likely given the unknowns? Are we doing more to advertise the game and bring new people in addition to changing the game at its core? What's the proof or analysis staff has done to come to a decision on this?

Quote from: zilcho on December 06, 2023, 08:42:45 AMI think, fundamentally, some people fail to grasp how connected some of us can get to our little characters and their little lives.

My character's life is no longer in my hands. My character will end in X months.

This drives a complete stake in the heart of the game for me. I remember characters who lived for in-game years and I aspired to be one of them. That's gone.

This x 100.

It's not about the average character life. Some of mine are laughably short. It's about being told how short that life will be no matter what the circumstances are.

While I can understand people feeling all sorts of ways about this change and the fact it was sorta popped on them out of seemingly nowhere.

I will say that we should probably limit this to Questions and Answers as intended, this almost feels like I should start handing out Psychologist calling cards with the way some of you are reacting to a game changing.

That said,

Onto the questions!

If time jump from season to season X is say 200 years into the future, could I play a descendent of my old character?  Say I start player clan hunting company X in a season, it flourishes throughout the years, can I come back as Merchant/Hunter Douche, the great grandson of my old character?  As a way to sorta continue the story?

While you're tinkering with skills for faster skill advancement, will you be working on magick and the RNG'ness of it?

Will we see major law changes throughout time?  Will we see an Allanak that doesn't give a fuck about spice?  Will we see a more built up Luirs with apartments and such, bordering on potential city feel that everyone has asked for now that we are shifting between hundreds of years of time?

Will Mantis/Gith and Halfling become playable races again?  If we shoot backwards hundreds of years, they should be I would think.

Those are my questions for now and while I'm not a moderator, I'd ask that we keep it to questions instead of telling us how hurt you are, that's not what this topic is for.

Quote from: zilcho on December 06, 2023, 08:20:45 AMI came back after a multi year break, began working on a character and this is what happens?

I'm in exactly the same position as you. But I think we need to step back and try to look at the bigger picture. There won't be a game to play in a while if we keep going as-is. Staff have pretty clearly indicated this without directly saying it. The player numbers are less than before. Staff numbers are less than before and they're over-stretched with the size of the world and players are complaining. And this is on top of the everyday player complaints which, from what @Pariah mentioned before after his time on the Player Committee, seems to be largely completely frivolous complaining. All this is clearly impacting Staff retention rates - who wants to volunteer to have to eat cups of shit every day? Sooner or later we'll reach the inflection point where the wheels will quickly come off completely and Arm just shuts. I'd bet that it's on the sooner side too. You can feel it in the game already. There's too much facade in the game world with not much underneath once you scratch at the surface because most of the Houses/Clans are under-populated.

Something kind of radical has to be done now. If they ask the players they'll get 100 different opinions, endless arguments, quit threats, etc. and it'll go nowhere for ages. Best they can do is make the best decision they can, start taking action now and then let the chips fall where they may. I'm sure they'll take on board some feedback from these threads but we need to move on to a new chapter where our cloth is cut accordingly if we want to continue having chapters at all.

I considered whether or not to post this, but in my short time with the game, I've come to really enjoy it- so as some feedback, I decided to proceed.

As someone who works in a role dealing both with projects at work, communication thereof, and relationship management, I have a few thoughts/comments for the staff as to this change.

1) I can tell that the staff is trying their best to breathe new life into a game they love.  No one undertakes such extreme measures without good intentions. I give kudos to the staff for being willing to make an attempt- that's already more than some people might do.

2) I have read very few definitives from staff on this.  I've read a lot of "our plans are" "we hope to" "we'll try and make sure there's something for everyone" - while again, well meaning, these statements have nothing concrete to them and only leave the players adrift in their thoughts. Without clear direction, with this big change, it is a natural inclination that people assume the worst. You have to LEAD them.

3) The game will live or die based on communication and relationship management: the announcement was made. This change is coming. This is definite.  Rather than tease what may occur in seasons 2/3/4/etc, triage needs to happen NOW. You are hemorrhaging and it is imperative that players somehow get invested in the change, or the downtime will be a death sentence for the game. Out of sight, out of mind/people will move on- and you've already pulled the rug out from under them.

4) I read there will be an Opt-In newsletter. I think this is an excellent move! And it should already be going. I assume this is the medium by which people will know when the game comes back up after the downtime.

5) The 'end of season' spiral is real- you're likely to see it between now and when the game is taken down to revamp it. I saw that staff posted some ideas to combat that. I would strongly suggest that such be given a priority. You can't address every player concern, I understand, though I highly suggest that commend someone compile a list of them and prioritize them, and begin to deal with those high-level items.


Comments to players:

1) Negativity doesn't help- and this is one of the last things anyone ever wants to see: something they love having something drastic done to save it. The staff are doing their best and trying to keep the game alive. Be supportive or be silent, unless there is something to be said with the goal to make this change better for all.



All in all, I wish the best for the game and truly hope this works.  I have my personal doubts about breathing new life into something that is effectively a very niche hobby and through such drastic steps, as it is a large departure of what made a thing enjoyable to begin with- especially with a player base that has aged with the game.

Quote from: zilcho on December 06, 2023, 08:42:45 AMI think, fundamentally, some people fail to grasp how connected some of us can get to our little characters and their little lives.

My character's life is no longer in my hands. My character will end in X months.

This drives a complete stake in the heart of the game for me. I remember characters who lived for in-game years and I aspired to be one of them. That's gone.

Your character's life is /never/ in your hands. It never was. It has always been in the hands of whoever or whatever is trying to kill you. If your character survived, then you had a lucky break. It might not be so lucky next time.

I think people are looking at this whole situation from the point of view of "my characters never die, I decide what happens to them, and I intend for them to live another 5 RL years." But that just doesn't happen. There are very rare and few outliers whose PCs lasted a long time. I've come close to playing an "ultra-rare" long-lived character. I've not yet gone over the 14-month mark though and I only know of four people who went over the 2-year mark.

Staff is suggesting a potential 18-month max between seasons. The odds of ANY character living 18 RL months even in the current version of the game is just over "none" and fully into the "slim" category.  For those who do have long-lived characters, it'll be awkward to start with a new one. But it is always awkward to start with a new one and as far as I know, all players of long-lived characters have played OTHER characters before their current one - so they have already experienced this awkwardness. That means they were willing and eager to get past that awkwardness the first time around. Otherwise they wouldn't /have/ their current long-lived character.

My loathing is of the down-time. It's exactly why I've asked if I can help build. It'll keep me involved in the game even while the game is shut down between seasons. In addition, I believe that additional builders can reduce that down-time. The more people working on the game when they're NOT also having to deal with plotlines, requests, wishes, etc, the quicker the game re-opens.

Quote from: zilcho on December 06, 2023, 08:42:45 AMI think, fundamentally, some people fail to grasp how connected some of us can get to our little characters and their little lives.

My character's life is no longer in my hands. My character will end in X months.

This drives a complete stake in the heart of the game for me. I remember characters who lived for in-game years and I aspired to be one of them. That's gone.

This is a big problem I'm having with it (one of many). I don't want to write a 50 page dissertation on why I hate this idea, so I'll just grab snippets and chime in.

My average character lives about 2-6 weeks. I think I've gotten a few up to 2 months. I'm almost always a villain. I guarantee the majority of you have heard the names of some of them.

Just having a time limit over my head, not just this looming one right now, but the concept of 'a season' .. even if it's 10x as long as I usually live ... for some reason just having that time limit just ruins the whole concept.

Having a potential, even a difficult and mostly unreachable  one, is superior to a 'hard no'.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 06, 2023, 09:14:56 AMMy loathing is of the down-time. It's exactly why I've asked if I can help build. It'll keep me involved in the game even while the game is shut down between seasons. In addition, I believe that additional builders can reduce that down-time. The more people working on the game when they're NOT also having to deal with plotlines, requests, wishes, etc, the quicker the game re-opens.

Okay, this is a second thing I don't like. Most of my RL hobbies are already seasonal. Gardening, fishing, etc. But the mud is always on, I can play it while I'm working, etc.

From having run multiple games, I can tell you that having multiple builders don't help as much as you think. You got to train them, you got to supervise them, you got to review their work for errors but also thematic consistency. Even in a game like Arm where 90% of the room descs are identical to a region, there's issues.

The game already sees less player support and animations in it than games with 2 staff members who occasionally hop on to do things like Harshlands.

There is absolutely zero trust here that concentrating all the players in specific areas during "seasons" will actually accomplish any meaningful change. Every single thing they're touting on discord and here can literally have been done in the current system and through months and years, staff just don't. A hard reset or a soft reset won't fix that staff culture.

This is not the time for "no negativity" and "staff is doing a wonderful job."

Better be able to speak the hard truths without butt-kissing or I feel we're going to either lose our game or get back something that is unrecognizable and not-fun.

Whilst I like the idea of changing up the timeline and the setting and shrinking the world in order to concentrate more playerbase together, everything else ranges from feeling unecessary to straight up removing interest from playing (even being fully aware that even my longest lived character hasn't crossed the 18 month mark. Its just a kind of pressure that makes everything the character does meaningless, its irrational)

Especially having a limited time to develop/grind out a character. I know some people love that, but some others just feel like its now a chore/job. There are also a range of issues with the code and gameplay that staff just keep ignoring and/or refusing to change despite the player demographic changing.

I like that staff is open to big changes since rigidity is what will ultimately kill this game, but this doesn't feel like the right direction. I'd be a lot happier with closing things, concentrating players, shrinking maps, and fixing issues that have existed since forever.

PS: This is something I've thought about recently and this seems like a good place to put it, maybe this is a complete illusion of mine and my brain just fully developed/I got better at not dying, but RPTs have felt very stakeless during the time I played, and designed to be safe and with padded corners. The game and its setting seem to be losing the initial edge that attracted me to it.

Quote from: betweenford on December 06, 2023, 09:13:08 AMThere won't be a game to play when this change kills it.

I feel this.
I have been a player for a _long_ time and though I rarely get into character any longer, this makes me quite sad. I recently started a new character and feel that investing time, even now, is rather pointless. And I don't want to play a character that will be wiped every few months or even every year artificially (somehow dying to my own stupidity feels better? IDK). This has really sapped my energy to play _right now_.  Why? There is nothing to strive for.

Permadeath is one thing but this is something else completely. Ultimately if staff cannot commit to a theme and a world, how do you expect players to meaningfully commit to a character. Better to just shutter the game. 

That said, the decision has been made, obviously. I do not think that Armageddon will survive this. There are better options and that said I'm sure the staff has thought about them and discarded them for various reasons so I won't waste time by bringing them up now.

So long and thanks for all the scrab!

Ah, fek, I'll add a bit more - how can I not? I love this game >as it is<.
I remember when halflings and mantis were playable and have played a few. I remember building a wagon of Kurac with my dwarf merchant - I remember when the game would go down on Saturdays and you need special permission (which I got) to log in and play. I remember when on those saturdays we were often locked within Allanak. I remember when Tuluk was fun to play in! ;-)

Player consolidation was never well done by the team except accidently - and crushing everyone today would create the friction and heat needed for passionate roleplaying. Why they didn't really limit quit locations, reduce cities to just one (or destroy them both) I'll never know.  The game seems like a adventure game but it's really an interaction game - so exploring new eras isn't where it's at. That's not the exciting part. Playing for 10, 20, 30 years and discovering something new >right under your nose< is exciting, not knowing what the fellow you are talking to is capable of is exciting. Those things don't need "eras" and "shutdowns." These things literally make the game.

Alright. I'm done now. It's only 0930 here, but I need a drink. Peace.

Final edit:
I'm pleased, if that's the word for it, that my very first character, a female half-breed water witch, started in the same location that my (apparently) very last character is currently. 

I'm going to miss armageddon. I enjoyed it a lot.

Will I like the new game? Maybe? Even if I enjoy it will I begrudge staff for the way this is being done? Yes.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 06, 2023, 09:14:56 AM

Quote from: zilcho on December 06, 2023, 08:42:45 AMI think, fundamentally, some people fail to grasp how connected some of us can get to our little characters and their little lives.

My character's life is no longer in my hands. My character will end in X months.

This drives a complete stake in the heart of the game for me. I remember characters who lived for in-game years and I aspired to be one of them. That's gone.

Your character's life is /never/ in your hands. It never was. It has always been in the hands of whoever or whatever is trying to kill you. If your character survived, then you had a lucky break. It might not be so lucky next time.

Yes, forces outside of my choices can impact my character - those choices are organic and come from the choices of other characters. But I still have agency. Choices I made are a part of what outcomes befall my characters. Was I rude to a powerful tavern sitter? Did I try to fight 4 raiders?

An artificial Best By date imposed on all characters is completely different.

Quote from: Boggis on December 06, 2023, 09:10:18 AM

Quote from: zilcho on December 06, 2023, 08:20:45 AMI came back after a multi year break, began working on a character and this is what happens?

I'm in exactly the same position as you. But I think we need to step back and try to look at the bigger picture. There won't be a game to play in a while if we keep going as-is.

The obsession with playercounts I see boggles my mind. Every time I login since I started playing again last week I've found people to play with. I've started building friendships and doing more than just riding out to kill X beast. No, it isn't like the glory days of the mid 2000s when I would login and couldn't even play in the Gaj without getting a headache because there was too much talking and emoting to follow it all.

Judging by the vote tally, this change is going to drive away more players than currently like it.

Will it attract more players than those it's driving away? I think it's hard to answer that question given my obvious bias and contempt for this change. I would genuinely be shocked if so.

But I base that primarily on a simple fact - Muds in general are as niche of a gaming community as I can imagine. I don't believe this drastic change is going to result in a sudden influx of players and a revitalizing of the medium.

Muds are a dying game platform. Some of us will probably always want to play one every now and then but the days of muds growing are long, long gone. I'd rather not hasten their end. Certainly for me I went from excited to login today to completely bummed out and sapped of enthusiasm to play.

Actually, in reflection maybe this is a good thing. A good thing that in a sense once the staff realize that without their players the game doesn't work they'll finally see that all they have is a dusty museum to what once was and what could have been. Over the 30 years that I've played there have been numerous threads and staff/player drama and these have never really changed the culture at the top. This is just another example, I think.

Loads of new players are not going to join up to a text-based game and older players will fall away very fast. I mean - we've already started, right?

It would have been more respectful to the game and the players to just shut the game down forever in a month after an apocalyptic HRPT and walk away. But that has never been the way it is done here.

Prefacing this to say that I'm not upset at staff for this choice, as they're doing what they feel is best to keep the game alive. That said, I hate it. So much.

The allure to Arm for me, since late 2003, has been that it's a wide open, persistent world. If I want to wake up in Red Storm, and go wrestle some Kryl in the Grey, that's what I'm gonna do. Likely won't survive, but the world was available for me to do it.

From the feel of things now, it seems like I'm gonna wake up in Red Storm, start north for my Wrestlekrylia debut, and find out that for some reason, there's an invisible wall at the north end of the Salt Flats that I can't pass, because the Season is based in this part of the world. If that's the case, it really doesn't sit well with me.

I'd have much more preferred to see things take place in the current game to consolidate things and work toward bringing players into more of a central hub. I feel like there was entirely too much expanding as of late, putting people into remote areas of the game (Such as Thryzn, I've seen ONE Thryzn PC since they were added.)

Instead of going for seasonal play, perhaps some other options could be explored first that take place in the actual, living world?

Take the GMH issues for example. I see talk of how the Houses feel empty with so many people spread out across them... Why not run a major plotline in the game where there's a (possibly very hostile) merger/takeover of the four major houses? Nenyuk starts throwing their billions around, and next thing you know, Salarr, Kadius, Kurac are on life support, and have to submit. We then have the East Ind... Erm, the MCB Trading Company, and one large House for PCs to join and interact in. Instead of logging in now to only have your Merchant standing around, you get to log in to multiple merchants/crafters around, as they're all in the same House, living in the same compound.

Maybe have another city takeover, such as when Allanak had control of Tuluk? It spanned across the world, but things were consolidated. Instead of 7463 Noble Houses, there was like, 6.

Have a "tribal alliance" of sorts that works a lot like the GMH idea above. You can still be Muark, or Arabet, etc, but that's just your bloodline/background, because now, the tribes had to all band together to fight off the gith menace, etc.

Mass amounts of options are great, but only really work with an expansive player base, and it has felt to me that options kept breeding as numbers shrunk, which has led to the mostly dead-feeling world that we have now.


Optionally, why not mix the two ideas?

Run seasons, but do it in the current, wide-open world?

Make your announcement of "Season 1 will begin on X, and will take place in Y. During this time, play will only be supported in Y. If you choose to make Z your home, do not expect support of any kind, as staff will be putting their time and resources into Y."

This will allow the staff to focus on their area of choice, making it a prime place to play for PCs, while also allowing the outliers to still enjoy the game in their own ways outside of it. It also allows players to continue on after a season ends, if they so happen to enjoy that pc. They can then either play as an outlier to keep that character, or perhaps migrate to the area of the new season when it comes around.

That then eliminates the 'why does it matter?' impending doom of all pcs in a season. I know that when I played Nell, if I'd have been told that her story ends on this exact date, no matter what, I'd have never played her as ambitiously as I did, feeling like it would just be a waste to make it that long, and not have the horrible ending that befalls all pcs.

The idea of Seasons wiping everyone out at the end date just has that feel to me. This basically feels like playing a Dungeons and Dragons campaign, and not an RPI.


That said, I'm really hoping for the best out of all of this. Arm has been a pretty fun hobby for at least a third of my life, and I'd hate to see it close down, whether I'm playing actively or not. I have no doubt that my above ideas might be pretty flawed, but I'm just spitballing things in a hope to see the game not become something so completely different than it was meant to be.

Quote from: Pariah on December 06, 2023, 09:06:11 AMIf time jump from season to season X is say 200 years into the future, could I play a descendent of my old character?  Say I start player clan hunting company X in a season, it flourishes throughout the years, can I come back as Merchant/Hunter Douche, the great grandson of my old character?  As a way to sorta continue the story?

As a general answer:  quite possibly.  We'll want to handle that on a case-by-case basis, but as a general rule of thumb, yes we'll allow that sort of thing.  We'd work the details out with you.

Quote from: Pariah on December 06, 2023, 09:06:11 AMWhile you're tinkering with skills for faster skill advancement, will you be working on magick and the RNG'ness of it?

Can you be more specific what about the "RNG'ness" of it you mean?  If it's to 'sensitive', him me up via request or discord or something.

Quote from: Pariah on December 06, 2023, 09:06:11 AMWill we see major law changes throughout time?  Will we see an Allanak that doesn't give a fuck about spice?  Will we see a more built up Luirs with apartments and such, bordering on potential city feel that everyone has asked for now that we are shifting between hundreds of years of time?

Yes as a general rule.  This is part of the vision, making adjustments like this that change the dynamic in some way, explore new ideas.

Quote from: Pariah on December 06, 2023, 09:06:11 AMWill Mantis/Gith and Halfling become playable races again?  If we shoot backwards hundreds of years, they should be I would think.

While there's not a specific plan for that yet, yes all those things are possible.

can we get a more explicit and official explanation of how resolutions of current plotlines could potentially influence the new iteration of the game?

What I would want out of 'seasons' is player agency.

I don't want ANOTHER railroad plot/dinner theatre.

I would want actions from one season to result in the next season. And I never want to play a historical season or flashback season. That is terrible. I don't even like reading books that have a flashback.

Halaster, what are you planning to do with the codebase, documentation, etc of Armageddon if you decide to close the game?

Quote from: Kestria on December 06, 2023, 08:10:03 AMWhy not just.. leave the game  running and build what you're building on the test server, and then have a few days down time, not a few /months/?  Months of not being able to play at all is going to destroy the playerbase.

We don't want to try to build the new one and support the existing one.  We want to be able to solely focus on preparing for the new game without the distraction of the old.  So, what if we just leave it running without any staff oversight?  That still leads to more work than one might think.  Someone still has to approve apps, someone still has to answer some requests.  What if player start cheating, or doing things that break the rules?  We have to stop and handle that.  We have to stop and handle complaints.  If we don't, then Armageddon just becomes "that game that has no staff and you can do anything" while we work on the new one.

That's just not what we want to happen.  We want to make sure the existing game is going to have oversight and guidance until it closes, if nothing else so that what happens IC has an impact on the first season.  That doesn't happen if we just ignore it.

Quote from: Kestria on December 06, 2023, 08:10:03 AMWhere is the vote on this to your current playerbase?

Where is the talks about this being an option before you pulled the trigger, to your current player base?

There wasn't one, this isn't a democracy.  Staff's job is to provide a vision and direction for their game.  This is ours for ArmageddonMUD.

Quote from: Kestria on December 06, 2023, 08:10:03 AMWhy not open another server to do this little idea of yours to see it works instead of kill switching the main game?

See above about not wanting to run two games at once.

Quote from: Kestria on December 06, 2023, 08:10:03 AMWhat was the point in putting so many rolecalls out recently?

That was a mistake, the right hand not knowing what the left is doing, and is regrettable.

Quote from: Yam on December 06, 2023, 11:39:07 AMHalaster, what are you planning to do with the codebase, documentation, etc of Armageddon if you decide to close the game?

We're not currently planning to close the game.  If that ever happens, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Quote from: Halaster on December 06, 2023, 11:40:08 AM...this isn't a democracy.  Staff's job is to provide a vision and direction for their game.  This is ours for ArmageddonMUD.

Hal, man, what you say here is absolute truth and an absolute shame.

Quote from: Halaster on December 06, 2023, 11:40:56 AM

Quote from: Yam on December 06, 2023, 11:39:07 AMHalaster, what are you planning to do with the codebase, documentation, etc of Armageddon if you decide to close the game?

We're not currently planning to close the game.  If that ever happens, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Quote from: Halaster on December 06, 2023, 11:40:56 AMThere wasn't one, this isn't a democracy.  Staff's job is to provide a vision and direction for their game.  This is ours for ArmageddonMUD.

Uh-huh. Well, I hope you aren't the only one with access to or copies of everything. Staff direction may not be democratic, but you're acting like you own the game and community.

Quote from: DustMight on December 06, 2023, 11:46:54 AM

Quote from: Halaster on December 06, 2023, 11:40:08 AM...this isn't a democracy.  Staff's job is to provide a vision and direction for their game.  This is ours for ArmageddonMUD.

Hal, man, what you say here is absolute truth and an absolute shame.

It's because it is a selfish Dictatorship, of a few people, over the many.

It is so damn sad to see what we have all built together over the years go to shit, and we have no say in it whatsoever, because of a few with dictator power.

It's not toxicity. I think they really do think this is the best way to save the game (even though I don't think the game is in any need of saving right now).

But I think they are definitely forgetting that players absolutely get the final say in a game as they exercise the only vote that matters ... the vote with their feet.

At this point I don't know what problem is being solved in this. I see it as doubling down on the problems, not a solution. Staff finds it a headache to do so much work? Awesome. The solution is more work?

Declining player counts? People finding other things to do with their free time? Awesome. Let's give them extended downtimes to go find another game, at which point they'll need to come back and relearn their old favorite one.

With the absolute pushback against this change ... I would suspend it for now, talk about it with the players, and see if we can't collectively come up with a couple of other solutions to try FIRST.

I know that staff have pretty much never been good at communicating but "this isn't a democracy" in response to someone asking why staff didn't check to see if the player base would want the change first is pretty callous.

Quote from: Kavrick on December 06, 2023, 12:03:24 PMI know that staff have pretty much never been good at communicating but "this isn't a democracy" in response to someone asking why staff didn't check to see if the player base would want the change first is pretty callous.

This SHOULD have been phased in. with the current plots leading into what they want season 1 to do. This would have given us months to adjust and get used to the storyline ending.  The current way this is handle has me worried, and I'm not the only one...

9 people on at noon on wednessday might not SOUND bad. But it really is. It's less then half what I'm used to seeing. Judging from the messages I've been getting, people are just.. Moving on. Like their pc's are dead, and it's time to find a new game.

That being said. Thank all of you for reaching out to me (those of you still checking the boards) The support has been beautiful, and I love you all.

Would you consider running some skeletal version of the game during the downtime, to give player something to do so they don't lose interest?

This is one of the things that irks players, IMO.

We would want to have a chance to play outside of staff interference/control, something to have fun with, that's all, as opposed to nothing.

Again, just IMO.

Quote from: Kavrick on December 06, 2023, 12:03:24 PMI know that staff have pretty much never been good at communicating but "this isn't a democracy" in response to someone asking why staff didn't check to see if the player base would want the change first is pretty callous.

It's a constant thing though, Kaverick. I don't think it's wrong for the player base to be upset that staff did not ask of our opinions. WE as PLAYERS are the reason this game continues to go on, so not asking the 50 players or what not of their opinion is poor in my eyes. I would understand if it was a bigger player base but it is just not. I don't think it is cruel or insensitive that people are saying that. It's how they feel, it's a game that hasn't changed drastically in years and now it is without input from the players that keep it going is highly ridiculous. Specially with such a low player base, I can't say that enough. YOU also say staff haven't been good at communicating, that is false. They have tried and done well in some areas and other areas have failed. It happens, we are humans of course. I don't see it as a problem for us as players to ask that of the staff who are also players why they don't ask for input on major changes on a dying game. Just my two cents.

Quote from: Rogerthat on December 06, 2023, 12:36:39 PM

Quote from: Kavrick on December 06, 2023, 12:03:24 PMI know that staff have pretty much never been good at communicating but "this isn't a democracy" in response to someone asking why staff didn't check to see if the player base would want the change first is pretty callous.

It's a constant thing though, Kaverick. I don't think it's wrong for the player base to be upset that staff did not ask of our opinions. WE as PLAYERS are the reason this game continues to go on, so not asking the 50 players or what not of their opinion is poor in my eyes. I would understand if it was a bigger player base but it is just not. I don't think it is cruel or insensitive that people are saying that. It's how they feel, it's a game that hasn't changed drastically in years and now it is without input from the players that keep it going is highly ridiculous. Specially with such a low player base, I can't say that enough. YOU also say staff haven't been good at communicating, that is false. They have tried and done well in some areas and other areas have failed. It happens, we are humans of course. I don't see it as a problem for us as players to ask that of the staff who are also players why they don't ask for input on major changes on a dying game. Just my two cents.

100%
And the reason for the change is specious at best! Is it to "save" the game? Is the lack of meaningful character progression and development going to pull teens and young adults away from D4, Stellaris, or the million of other video game offerings to play a text-based RPG that requires hours of attention and dedication set in a a world that is based on some old pen and paper RPG? Do they think folks are showing up at the local bookstore asking if they can get Prism Pentad?" They are not. They will not come. At best a percentage of current players (myself included) will never visit the deserts of Zalanthas again and no one will replace us. Like it or not, this is stamp collecting. It's a weird old hobby and there's not much interest in it.

Further, Hal's blatant statement that "this isn't a democracy" has been painfully true for so long now. And it's nothing to be proud of to be sure and goes a long way in explaining why the real problems of the game were never adequately addressed. The fact that staff could never quite see their own problem has led to a pretty crazy decision that clearly will not succeed.

Oh my.  This is a major risk and I do not think it is one that we really need to take. I am not worried about the new format, although I think it needs to be re-worked.  I am worried about the down time.

-It will in fact, last longer than projected. 
-We will lose players, which is something we cannot accept.
-There will be a correlation between the amount of time the game is down, and the number of players who leave and never return. The longer, the worse the damage.
- I would like to know the method of planned player retention during the downtime.  How are you going to keep us on board. It must be interactive and participative.
-Related to the above remark, how will you be contacting us?  You cannot simply rely on people visiting he GDB or Discord.  YOU will have to keep US informed. How?

Rushing into this is not something staff should take upon themselves to do alone.  We as a community should decide the pace and the boundaries, and even, the if.  Otherwise, this is a game of Russian roulette.

I would suggest, that the game not be closed during the remake.  Keep a section open. Let us play our PCs.  Work the other sections.  You can do this with more limited staff, and free others up for the development of the new game. You can do rotating blocks. Complete closure for an undetermined yet extended period..is not a good idea.

Of course, one more bloody thing to say..Staff, Why on earth would you want to take on a great deal of work, in a way that may well result in your having worked in vain? If you do not have players..then really..

Cheers
Norcal

Quote from: Norcal on December 06, 2023, 01:52:21 PMI would suggest, that the game not be closed during the remake.  Keep a section open. Let us play our PCs.  Work the other sections.  You can do this with more limited staff, and free others up for the game. You can do rotating blocks. Complete closure for an undetermined yet extended period..is not a good idea.

I think this is a good idea on balance. I work in project management and it's pretty rare to see a program get done on time. Unexpected things always come up e.g. Staff members lose interest and quit, Staff members get sick, Staff members RL jobs or family commitments suddenly get busier and they don't have the time to dedicate to this, etc. Any or all of these could happen and impact the timelines.

Keeping the game open but letting it freewheel with minimal oversight will add some time to the new Arm go live date but will help with player retention - especially if new Arm work starts taking longer than anticipated. I'd keep Staff work on old Arm as light as possible. Keep the game up & running and deal with rule breakers. No special apps except those who want to take on an open leader role, no Staff animations (unless they feel like dipping in), no special crafting items, player complaints will be ignored bar cheating reports, etc. Just let people who want to play keep on playing.

On balance this feels like a decent compromise though I'm not privy to exactly how much effort would go into leaving the game in freewheel mode.

We cannot build the impact your PCs will have had into the future game unless we have a stopping point in time to work from. If you continue to play and change course and do different things then that makes that aspect pretty impossible for us.

There is also a large amount of work needed to keep the lights on and the game running even when it might feel 'unsupported' to players.

Quote from: Usiku on December 06, 2023, 02:47:48 PMWe cannot build the impact your PCs will have had into the future game unless we have a stopping point in time to work from. If you continue to play and change course and do different things then that makes that aspect pretty impossible for us.

There is also a large amount of work needed to keep the lights on and the game running even when it might feel 'unsupported' to players.

It addition to these reasons, also, once the announcement was made, X number if players decided to quit or went ahead and quit playing (the number today show that). Dragging it out longer, would likely result in it dwindling to just a handful of PCs still requiring the full load of staff for maintenance. Once you decide to kill a beast it is time to release the trigger, not keep tormenting them with the hope of life.

Already brought this up in the Discord, and a few people seemed receptive to it, so I'll post it in here.

Would you guys consider an 'alternation' pattern with the seasons? Rather than departing from the current gameworld entirely, have the game alternate between seasons and the normal setting. Another server I was on once did this method, and by swapping between the two, people didn't feel like they were giving up their characters- and the seasons could serve to give context to the normal setting. If we were constantly jumping between different eras and locations, I feel like it would be hard to 'ground' yourself to the setting.

One of the things that occurred to me recently is that a majority of my bad experiences in this game are brought on by staff who are:
1. Not Game Masters (or very qualified to be Game Masters).
2. More interested in administrative power/influence than telling stories.

Alas.

Did the player committee know about this big change?

If so, what was their thoughts?

And what does Mansa have to say?

Quote from: Usiku on December 06, 2023, 02:47:48 PMWe cannot build the impact your PCs will have had into the future game unless we have a stopping point in time to work from. If you continue to play and change course and do different things then that makes that aspect pretty impossible for us.

There is also a large amount of work needed to keep the lights on and the game running even when it might feel 'unsupported' to players.

Why does there need to be any impact on my PC? I would never assume that my PC needs some sort of impact being put upon it from staff.

What work specifically needs to be done? 

I feel like there were a hundred other things that could have been tried before something as drastic as this. Especially stuff that's a time sink
-get rid of request system
-get rid of gdb
-streamline the discord server with bots that can automate stuff
-ask for help from professional game designers or community managers
-advance the metaplot in an exciting and interesting way
-stop doing rolecalls
-reach out to disenchanted players
-send an email blast or newsletter

Maybe some of this was done I don't know but I never saw any of it.

I was never able to get back into the game but this was long before last major drama with certain people clearly that took its toll on the community. Still, I hope those people remained banned for all time.


I am really sad to see the game has declined to this point. I have my thought of the more clan centric aoproach the game took but i think its moot at this point.

Speaking honestly and with empathy for the effort being made, I think seasons will allow to the game and its remaining community to wind down with dignity while avoiding a sudden heartbreaking end. However, the moment a game closes people will find other things to do, breaking from new habits to revisit an old one becomes harder over time.

I dont post very much at this point so i will only add that regardless of what is decided, I will quietly support and understand any decision those who remain make. I also want to wish nothing but success and happiness in the future to everyone here.

Quote from: Miradus on December 06, 2023, 03:17:04 PMDid the player committee know about this big change?

If so, what was their thoughts?

And what does Mansa have to say?

I will say when I was on the PC, this was floated by staff and discussed loosely, it was by no means a DEFINITE thing back then, but we did discuss it a little bit.  I don't recall if everyone was like HOLY SHIT NO, or HOLY SHIT YES.

I am pretty sure my response was, "Cool, changing the game finally is a good thing." in a nutshell.

As for the Mansa question, He's not a member of staff or anyone who matters beyond just over moderating posts, why does his feelings in this regard matter than others?

Quote from: Pariah on December 06, 2023, 03:29:18 PMAs for the Mansa question, He's not a member of staff or anyone who matters beyond just over moderating posts, why does his feelings in this regard matter than others?

Because he never says shit unless he has 10 pages of statistics to back him up.

He is a nerd's nerd and for that reason alone I respect his opinion.

Quote from: Pariah on December 06, 2023, 03:29:18 PMAs for the Mansa question, He's not a member of staff or anyone who matters beyond just over moderating posts, why does his feelings in this regard matter than others?

mansa is our Ja Rule.

Quote from: Usiku on December 06, 2023, 02:47:48 PMWe cannot build the impact your PCs will have had into the future game unless we have a stopping point in time to work from. If you continue to play and change course and do different things then that makes that aspect pretty impossible for us.

There is also a large amount of work needed to keep the lights on and the game running even when it might feel 'unsupported' to players.

except... We don't know how much time we have, or what we can even hope to accomplish.

This would have made sense if you guys said "Hey, we are going to finish the current world story we advertised about war and end this version of the game. We expect this to take around 4 months. During this time we will be prepping for very first season!  We will be dropping plot hints as to what that season will entail in the south, so if you want a sneak peak, roll a throw away character down there for the last month!"

This would have given us ample time to get ready, and for our pc's to meet natural ends. Giving us closure, and getting us excited for the future. You could have dropped RC's during the last month of play, so people could start working up new ideas.

But instead we get a month and a half, with no real promise of any resolutions to the ongoing plots. Legit: I can't possibly do any of the things I want in the time left. I can't. I have to rest on the 1 Bucket list thing I accomplished, and HOPE you guys include that in northern seasons. If the game even makes it to one.

We are promised months of downtime between this iteration and Seasons too. That downtime is where projects die.

Quote from: Fredd on December 06, 2023, 04:21:50 PMBut instead we get a month and a half, with no real promise of any resolutions to the ongoing plots. Legit: I can't possibly do any of the things I want in the time left. I can't. I have to rest on the 1 Bucket list thing I accomplished, and HOPE you guys include that in northern seasons. If the game even makes it to one.

We are promised months of downtime between this iteration and Seasons too. That downtime is where projects die.

Fredd is quite right.  As usual. And all this still begs the question as to the actual player base even wanting this change?

Managing transitions well is the key to actually surviving them. Usiku, do you want this game to survive? If so then please take to heart the comments in this thread. You are moving too fast.

One of the issues I've experienced in the past, is the apparent unwillingness for staff members to implement changes to the world based on player input.

For example:
* Closing a secret clan because it was replaced with another non-secret clan.

* Adding a warehouse location to the labyrinth

* Updating misaligned rooms or rooms that don't map correctly in an excel file.

* Changing rooms that are not-in-use to be functionally useable.

* Adding new NPCs to rooms to allow a basic gameplay loops of hunting/gathering/buying/selling


Perhaps unwillingness is the wrong word to use, but the ability to be agile in making changes to the written world is often stopped.  I feel the only reason why I have been successful in getting these changes implemented is because I bring them up every month in my reports, asking for 'next steps' and using my terrible project management skills.  I basically keep pushing and pushing and pushing until I wear the staff out and it all gets rushed and implemented in a weekend.



An example would be when the Blockade NPC soldiers in Tuluk got moved around and the wagon Blockade got removed.  I was playing an Artisan Elf who rented the wagon selling shop in the Red Sun Commons in Tuluk, and I was selling wagons out of the NPC there - however, there was a "blockade" preventing wagons from entering/exiting the Red Sun Commons - preventing people who purchased a wagon from piloting it outside the city, or even preventing it to be piloted towards the wagon rental NPC.

During my conversations with staff, a response was, "Wish up, pay soldiers 1000 coins, and we will allow the wagon blockade to be removed so you can move your recently purchased wagon from the Red Sun Commons to the Wagon Rental NPC near the Western Gates of Tuluk."

This is clearly a playability issue that wasn't consider when the area was being built, and the issue wasn't resolved until a staff turnover happened.  Of course, being told 'maybe' for 8 months and then being told 'yes' once a new staff member came on board is disheartening, but my heart is very calloused.
 


I believe these issues will still remain in the new game mode.  I believe that being agile, being able to change the written world, is something that the staff mindset actively discourage.  I have probably been one of the most successful players in getting the game world changed, and it's still one that requires months long reports and pushing and reminders and essays and graphs and maps and animated gifs.  (oh so many gifs)


Can you encourage me that being dynamic and being agile, from a hierarchy and systemic point of view, will change for the better in this new future?

I wonder how much it'll matter if one's "big accomplishment of the season" happens early on in a season.

Let's say a season is 12 months long. You spend the first six of them putting together Honest Amos' Merchant Company, but then you die and the clan inevitably peters out, as player-made clans practically always do once the creator is no longer around. The season keeps going for another six months, and by the end, Honest Amos is kind of forgotten.

Or you did all that in the second half of the season and lived to the end. Even if you did the exact same things and lived for the exact same amount of time, now you might have a chance at getting your own GMH established as a historical fixture of the lore. You get your memorial plaque.

The seasonal model risks coming with an unwritten rule that basically says "your shit only goes into the history books if it was ongoing when the season ended." After all, it's hard to ask for your seasonal story to be immortalized if it was irrelevant for the whole second half of the season. Looking at the current version of the game, almost nothing anybody did is still relevant IC six months after they died/stored/whatever.

On one hand, that could mitigate the late-season staleness that many seasonal games experience. On the other, a fresh new season is when people should be going all out and doing their best, not dicking around and waiting until later so that their big ambition has a chance of becoming part of the game's fabric. Feels like that could be an issue for players who "blow their load" prior to the final curtains of an Armageddon season.

Quote from: mansa on December 06, 2023, 05:26:04 PMI believe that being agile, being able to change the written world, is something that the staff mindset actively discourage. 

Can you encourage me that being dynamic and being agile, from a hierarchy and systemic point of view, will change for the better in this new future?

I think you are right in that this mindset is something that has existed within the staffing team, probably for a very long time. But it isn't something that we want to exist and more so recently we have been working towards being more agile. I've made various changes to the game world off the back of people's RPd efforts or feedback about things (including for you). What has held us back most recently is literally just manpower and lack of time. It's not that your repeated reminders wear staff down, it's just that sometimes fixing up a bit of map that could be aligned better is just a low priority and gets shunted to the back of the queue then eventually your nudge lands on someone at the right time when they are able to action it and it gets done.

That sounds an awful lot like "Submit reports for months until someone finally feels like doing it". Which is functionally pretty close to "We're sick of hearing Mansa request this, lets just do it and move on".

It also does not bode well for those of us who do NOT like writing as much as Mansa does. I'm a reactionary roleplayer who really enjoys having something to play off of. I don't want to have to write months of reports so that someone can "animate that tembo I've been chasing".

I played arm for the first time nearly 2 decades ago. I was around during the Arm 2.0 fiasco.

This seems like staff are bored, and are willing to ruin /everything/ just to make /something/ different happen.

Ah well. RIP.

long time player, former staffer, just chiming in.

This change isn't a deal-breaker for me.  most of my PCs are short lived (a few days to six months is average I'd say).  I like to play in a risky style that makes people want to kill my PC.  this game is supposed to be about MCB.  if your character is living longer than 18 months, you're probably not MCBing much.  this is not a criticism of these types of players, and I empathize with those who keep their PCs alive for RL years.  I could never do that, simply due to boredom if nothing else.  I always have ideas for my next several PCs qeued up.

Perhaps this change will encourage more MCB?  People who know that they have a limited lifespan anyway, might be more willing to put their PC into adverse circumstances?

possible downside:  if we are approaching the end of a season, and I find myself needing to create a new PC, I'll probably make some overpowered dwarf who can be combat effective within a day or two, so that I can continue to be relevant.  I wont be making any aides for end-season play as they take a long time to develop a reputation.

another possible downside: I enjoy both city-life and wilderness exploration.  I tend to alternate my PCs between those types of roles.  I'll play city, then I'll play explorer.  back and forth, also rotating between north and south.  this keeps things fresh for me.  now, I think this has been asked, but is solo-exploration still going to be a thing?  furthermore, will we be limited from moving beyond certain boundaries on the map?  for example, if we are in a allanak season, can I still go explore the grey if I want to?

I did not read all 5 pages of replies to this thread, I'm sure this is already redundant, I'm just committing some thoughts to writing here.

I will continue to play Arm until they switch it off permanently.

POSTSCRIPT FOR STAFF
Rotating new staff in seasonally?  I'd be down for a round of that.  Holla atcha boy!

I was told to post this here.

May I suggest something like Legends of the Jedi? They usually have 3 eras within a timeline (each era lasts 8-12 months) and no one gets wiped, but the next era starts with changes that the players made during that era. The end of the timeline is when it completely shifts into the future or past and everyone gets wiped. It gives players a lot of time to create changes within the era. I think that would satisfy both staff and players.

There's still a downtime between each era to set up for the next era but at least players know that they're characters will still be around and that the event of the era is taken into account for the next era is taken by staff.

Here's what happened in the last End of Era (I hope it's okay for me to post):

-----------
Broadcasting Network [GNI Report]: [ Republic Clings To Pyrrhic Victory After Defeating Mandalore As Coruscant Lies In Ruins ] A massive showdown between the Galactic Republic and the Mandalorian Clans left a catastrophic trail of destruction in its wake. The Mandalorians attacked Coruscant with all their might and captured an Orbital Solar Energy Transfer Satellite to pierce the planet's shields as a fierce space battle raged on. Mandalore Adha herself lead an elite strike team to the planet's surface and attacked key infrastructure, allowing the rest of the Mandalorian forces to land. As savage battles raged in the Coruscant streets, Mandalore was seen on the front lines leading her troops when an enormous explosion took out the Mandalorian leader and several of her team. With the Mandalorian naval threat neutralized, the Republic Navy proceeded to bomb the planet Mandalore itself while Mandalorians on Coruscant rallied after their leaders' death and pushed on. Mandalorian strike teams used the Orbital Satellite to direct an intense blast of energy at the Republic's Complex, and most of Coruscant's capital district. What happened to Mandalorian forces on the ground, let alone the full extent of devastation to Coruscant is far from known. As the galaxy burns from this devastating battle, many are left wondering... what comes next? Only time will tell. Stay tuned to GNI.
-----------

These were all done by the players within that era and they built the next era with that in mind. Players are happy and staff are happy.

Quote from: Malken on December 06, 2023, 07:30:59 PMThese were all done by the players within that era and they built the next era with that in mind. Players are happy and staff are happy.

dope format!  LotJ would be so sick if there wasn't so much OOC

Yeah Malken, I actually like that format way better.

Quote from: Malken on December 06, 2023, 07:30:59 PMI was told to post this here.

So to make the comparison, you're saying a season divided into 3 chapters, each chapter lasting 8-12 months, making the whole season 24-36 months?  In the Jedi game was there a distinction made between the chapters/eras somehow to signify the changeover?

Quote from: Halaster on December 06, 2023, 08:45:23 PM

Quote from: Malken on December 06, 2023, 07:30:59 PMI was told to post this here.

So to make the comparison, you're saying a season divided into 3 chapters, each chapter lasting 8-12 months, making the whole season 24-36 months?  In the Jedi game was there a distinction made between the chapters/eras somehow to signify the changeover?

Yes. I played there for a bit, and the game is still very active to this day. This model is proven to work.

They do have distinct breaks in the chapters and chars are wiped without much fuss, because people are there for the plot.

If you want to take a look for inspiration, just google 'Legends of the jedi'

Their game system is way to... Meh for me. Like classic mud quests with rp thrown on top. Not my thing.

In LOTJ the change in "Era's" usually shifted the game forward by 5-10 years. And new factions/world changes would happen. They'd open up new planets or stations for players to visit and fight over. The timeline currently is soemthing along the lines of...

The Old Republic Faction against the Mandalorian Faction Agaisnt a smaller criminal faction. There were other factions apart of the world but they were minor, meaning for the most part, their change on the world as a whole did not matter too much. Then the next era comes along from what happened with the last era.

The Old Republic BARELY won the war against the Mandalorians, resaulting in the Republic's capital being glassed by an orbital laser cannon, but the republic managed to kill the Mandalorian leadership, which resaulted in the clans splitting apart and the republic ultimately come out on top. (This is still controversioal to this day because really the Mandalorian's won.) Anyway.

The staff in the game genreally give events or pushses in certain directions, but ultimately the players and the choices they make end up deciding the factor at the end of the eras.

As for the Era's themselves: It sorta goes from, early star wars where Tie Fighters and X-wings, or even Star Destroyers were not really a thing yet. The middling Era, where X-Wings and Tie-Fighters and Stormtroopers are a thing. Then the late era, with the Sith Remnants, massive Sith Capital ships and super fighters.

Things do change quite drastically through each era, however they allow people to keep their characters until the end of the timeline where everyone is wiped and the world is started a new slate.

EDIT: But this implies you survive to the end with said character. Most combat characters don't because space fights are deadly and if you don't get to an escape pod on your ship in time you're dead.

Quote from: Yam on December 06, 2023, 09:41:23 PMAlso hold up...

You know I love you, Yam, but like someone upthread said, let's keep this shizz to Q&A and not turn it into a bitchfest. Go to Discord for that. Our volunteer staff have repeatedly said that they're understaffed and overworked with the size of our game. IMO we're lucky to have someone with Halaster's history and knowledge of the game still willing to be here to support us as players.

We don't even have Nessalin anymore, y'all. Remember that, fellow oldbies.

Quote from: Ourla on December 06, 2023, 10:20:33 PM

Quote from: Yam on December 06, 2023, 09:41:23 PMAlso hold up...

You know I love you, Yam, but like someone upthread said, let's keep this shizz to Q&A and not turn it into a bitchfest. Go to Discord for that. Our volunteer staff have repeatedly said that they're understaffed and overworked with the size of our game. IMO we're lucky to have someone with Halaster's history and knowledge of the game still willing to be here to support us as players.

We don't even have Nessalin anymore, y'all. Remember that, fellow oldbies.

You don't have to constantly be a yes-man for staff Ourla.

It's an honest question. Why is Halaster taking the reins when he's a coder and has stepped down from a producer position only to be a major proponent of game-direction change.

Quote from: betweenford on December 06, 2023, 10:24:58 PM

Quote from: Ourla on December 06, 2023, 10:20:33 PM

Quote from: Yam on December 06, 2023, 09:41:23 PMAlso hold up...

You know I love you, Yam, but like someone upthread said, let's keep this shizz to Q&A and not turn it into a bitchfest. Go to Discord for that. Our volunteer staff have repeatedly said that they're understaffed and overworked with the size of our game. IMO we're lucky to have someone with Halaster's history and knowledge of the game still willing to be here to support us as players.

We don't even have Nessalin anymore, y'all. Remember that, fellow oldbies.

You don't have to constantly be a yes-man for staff Ourla.

It's an honest question. Why is Halaster taking the reins when he's a coder and has stepped down from a producer position only to be a major proponent of game-direction change.

Careful, those questions got Yam permabanned.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on December 06, 2023, 10:44:21 PM

Quote from: betweenford on December 06, 2023, 10:24:58 PM

Quote from: Ourla on December 06, 2023, 10:20:33 PM

Quote from: Yam on December 06, 2023, 09:41:23 PMAlso hold up...

You know I love you, Yam, but like someone upthread said, let's keep this shizz to Q&A and not turn it into a bitchfest. Go to Discord for that. Our volunteer staff have repeatedly said that they're understaffed and overworked with the size of our game. IMO we're lucky to have someone with Halaster's history and knowledge of the game still willing to be here to support us as players.

We don't even have Nessalin anymore, y'all. Remember that, fellow oldbies.

You don't have to constantly be a yes-man for staff Ourla.

It's an honest question. Why is Halaster taking the reins when he's a coder and has stepped down from a producer position only to be a major proponent of game-direction change.

Careful, those questions got Yam permabanned.

If he's actually gotten permabanned and not gotten his post deleted for questioning Halaster that's insane. But I don't see why I should dance around the subject or be careful. What are they going to do, store my character for asking a relevant question?

Ban me? Force store my character? Aren't they already doing that in a month?

Quote from: betweenford on December 06, 2023, 10:52:19 PMIf he's actually gotten permabanned and not gotten his post deleted for questioning Halaster that's insane. But I don't see why I should dance around the subject or be careful. What are they going to do, store my character for asking a relevant question?

Ban me? Force store my character? Aren't they already doing that in a month?

I saw the original post and it wasn't really heated or insulting? It was a pretty tame and a genuine question as far as I can tell.

First off, thank you staff for all you do, hopefully there is a way (maybe there is) to anonymously donate for server costs etc.

That being said, if the is more of the same where we have to follow x,y,z, I am not sure how many people will be retained.  Chaos is the name of the game, put the scene, let people ruin things, change things etc, forcing them to do what you want is definitely not the way to do it.

[Jab moderated]

Anyways questions:
I assume that over the years in this new season gameplay we'll probably see some overlap of time periods.

Will it be possible is say you have a character that survives season whatever in the time of whatever and we revisit it that those characters can be unstored for the next time through the same period of time?

To cut down on downtime, can you just recruit builders to build out these new areas and such? I know you do this part time in most cases between crotch goblins and real jobs, crowd sourcing it would be the most efficient.  Once the outrage dies down and we get more folks on better dosages of their pills we'll probably have people interested in helping.

Will you be limiting classes based on the smaller world geography? If wear have 20 people playing in a small chunk we probably shouldn't have 20 witches or 10 d elves for example.

Will post more questions as I have them.

The producers clearly do not give a fig if their destruction and 'rebuild' plans are not taken by the playerbase, they can get new players, in their mind. This was the decision of 5 or 6 people, not the whole staff, because they didn't even tell their staffing team! Just 'a select few' that would share their vision and would help them try and make everyone see it is a good idea. Even with the majority of their community screaming DON't do it.. they don't care.

Do the producers intend to listen to their playerbase?

Quote from: Kavrick on December 06, 2023, 11:43:56 PM

Quote from: betweenford on December 06, 2023, 10:52:19 PMIf he's actually gotten permabanned and not gotten his post deleted for questioning Halaster that's insane. But I don't see why I should dance around the subject or be careful. What are they going to do, store my character for asking a relevant question?

Ban me? Force store my character? Aren't they already doing that in a month?

I saw the original post and it wasn't really heated or insulting? It was a pretty tame and a genuine question as far as I can tell.

This was while I was asleep (am investigating), but what I will say is that it's important to make some sort of contribution to the community discussion, and not just nag staff to give you the game codebase or troll.

There is a rule against discussing other people's bans on the forum mostly to prevent it becoming a total drama fest.  So let's leave it there and take it to modmail or request tool.

Quote from: Kestria on December 07, 2023, 03:11:52 AMHilariously the mod team are now entirely erasing posts instead of editing them to snip out the bad bits, silencing peoples opinions :)

Don't treat me as your personal filter please. I am having to do a lot at the moment because as you can imagine this really upsets lots of people (including player mods) and I'm trying to keep things somewhat together. If you want to rail against staff and call them names I'm just going to remove it.

Personally I think they should just pull the plug.

I was cautiously optimistic about a rework previously. But now? I just can't expect anyone to work under the abuse this community will put out. In fact the thought of it appalls me.

I play crafters more often than not, how will this change affect custom crafts? If we're jumping around throughout the timeline, will fashions change dramatically? Weapon/armor developments? Will custom craft time limits be shortened or extended?

My turn my turn!

Lots of feelings. I was convinced it was a joke.

Full disclosure: I only play a little bit. A dabbler and long time observer.

But on the "this isn't a democracy" palaver. I have comments on the manner of engagement

At the end of the day somebody does need to make decisions and stick with it.  Won't please everybody, or even most people, because most people here have survivorship bias.

However the engagement has been a bit: Bombshell --> Measure reaction and Q&A. But Q&A is hard because almost all of the questions won't actually have decisions yet! So I would replace general Q&A with more targeted soliciting of feedback.

Please *do* just be clear about what decisions are already made and then just have a space for people to grieve. Then *also* please be clear what isn't decided and what feedback you are actually looking for and options to consider.

If there are a lot of things not decided, but you also don't want player feedback, I'd say it's too early to engage with the broader community.

For example, just say you have not decided when to close and that you want feedback about the right amount of time, instead of emitting thoughts then when people freak out saying "well it's not decided".  That's the worst of both worlds, because people feel neither consulted nor any wiser.

Now, my primary fear on the whole staff situation

Staff, we will NEED you to make a success of this or it did just hasten the end.  It is going to need empowered people just making decisions with a vision. Halaster, Usiku.. my observation is that  people like and trust you running the game, but if you get frustrated and burnt out in a few weeks and step back this is a very bad outcome.

I hope you have a lot of time, patience and enthusiasm and yes, just rip the bandaid off. If you've decided something, just name the dates and get it done. Save your energy for what you do want feedback on.

And on empowerment, this could happen today of course. Maybe the feeling of wholesale change is necessary to make a new approach. A lot of bureaucracy is to deal with bad staffing experiences.  Far better to make sure you have the right people and absolute confidence in everyone. Be ruthless, trust your gut.  If there are any doubts, a smaller team is better. Then I say let it rip.

With that out of the way, my questions about the plans:

What does removing bureaucracy mean to you?

What technical things are your key objectives ? New protocol support? Get us listed on Mudlet? Removing the brew system? Fixing armour repair? We really need a super newbie area.

I'm getting mixed messages on building and have mostly heard "mostly the same + borders".  For what it's worth, I do think some shrinking of the game world might allow you to keep more variety, but that requires building.  Can you consult on options?

IMO, if we're doing it.. Go big. And by go big I mean go SMALL.   Don't cut babies in half until the only thing we closed is the grey forest.

Edit: I altered my post slightly because I didn't want to imply staff aren't trying to answer questions. It's just that it's not how I'd collect feedback because it feels like there might be answers to be had when it's actually undecided.

Quote from: Kestria on December 07, 2023, 03:11:52 AMThis was the decision of 5 or 6 people, not the whole staff, because they didn't even tell their staffing team!

All speculations aside, what Ketstia said here has been verified by staff, and to me seems to be the worst part of all this. It sounds like the worst method of corporate decision making.

The dictatorship stuff people keep bringing up, however, is silly. It's not a dictatorship, its a privately owned not-for-profit business essentially, and we are all volunteering out time to contribute to the "vision" of it. The game literally belongs to the producers, and that is not something that will likely ever change.  What they want out of the game, at the end of the day, IS the vision of the "business."  Whatever our visions for the future of the game are, they literally don't matter in the end. If you don't like what is being done, take your time else where, or stick around and see how it goes.

No one here is entitled to anything, no matter how much time and tears we have invested. It's -not- our game.  And understanding that, and getting over it, is essential to actually enjoying your time here and reducing your level of disappointment when things do not go your way.

I am fine with a DM making decisions by fiat for the table, as long as the DM is fine with players walking away from the campaign when they decide they're not comfortable with the decision. That does include how it's made. This is also how collaborative games function. The idea of "ownership" of a collaborative story is frankly a corrupting force to this whole conversation. The staff do indeed decide certain directions. The players decide what to contribute.

This is not to say that I am walking away, personally, but I certainly cannot blame people for doing so if they feel disappointed or disrespected, or that their contribution to the story is being discarded.

Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 07, 2023, 07:21:10 AMThe game literally belongs to the producers, and that is not something that will likely ever change.  What they want out of the game, at the end of the day, IS the vision of the "business."  Whatever our visions for the future of the game are, they literally don't matter in the end. If you don't like what is being done, take your time else where, or stick around and see how it goes.

Absolutely is their game to make the final decision on how to proceed. And I'd commend them to have the guts to try and do something that's necessary but radical for the long-term future of the game knowing that it's not going to go over well with a good number of players. But it's a pretty niche hobby this and sign-posting/communicating this better would have helped. If it was me I'd have put out something along the lines of: "Look we just don't have the numbers to keep things as they are, staff retention is down and we feel like the game is circling the drain. Here's what we're thinking of doing. Let's try and have an adult discussion about it all because at the end of the day we all want to play this game". There'd likely be a 100 different opinions being thrown out by players and maybe some of them could be good / feasible and could get incorporated into the final decision that gets made. That final decision would be theirs of course and not everyone is going to be pleased by it but at least people might have felt a bit more consulted/involved in the whole thing.

Quote from: Boggis on December 07, 2023, 07:45:46 AM"Look we just don't have the numbers to keep things as they are, staff retention is down and we feel like the game is circling the drain. Here's what we're thinking of doing. Let's try and have an adult discussion about it all because at the end of the day we all want to play this game"

We could have done this. Not only is our hobby niche, but the dynamic and relationship of the community here is extremely unique and it's very difficult to know what the best course of action is in the best interests of the game. But one of the key reasons we didn't approach that conversation directly is because it's a conversation you guys have had a hundred times over already. All your ideas and input on how to improve the game area already all over this GDB and we have read it all already. The idea that we formulated is born of the conversations and ideas that players have already put forward over the last year or two or three and the things that they have expressed they desired or felt would be good for the game. The core asks being: consolidate but also don't get rid of what I love (but it's fine to get rid of what they love), improve player agency, improve interaction.

Quote from: CirclelessBard on December 07, 2023, 07:37:56 AMI am fine with a DM making decisions by fiat for the table, as long as the DM is fine with players walking away from the campaign when they decide they're not comfortable with the decision. That does include how it's made. This is also how collaborative games function. The idea of "ownership" of a collaborative story is frankly a corrupting force to this whole conversation. The staff do indeed decide certain directions. The players decide what to contribute.

This is not to say that I am walking away, personally, but I certainly cannot blame people for doing so if they feel disappointed or disrespected, or that their contribution to the story is being discarded.

I agree with almost everything you said wholeheartedly except for the ownership being a corrupting force. It's the actual empirical truth of the situation, and accepting that as the truth and not what /we/ feel the game is to us, is essential to the mental health and expectations of the community.  Thinking of it as a bunch of friends who decide to run a campaign together and agree on rules at session 0 or 1, is a false ideal of what Armageddon is. It's one I often share, but its not the truth.

This is why I thought Kestria's comment about it being the decision of a very small group, not even full staff was so important of an observation. I /don't/ want to see the final flush down the drain. Do I think this was the best options, hell no, but again, what I think doesn't really matter. I fear it will be the Tuluki exodus again and again at the end of each season, but I /really/ hope that I am wrong.

Quote from: Usiku on December 07, 2023, 08:12:50 AM

Quote from: Boggis on December 07, 2023, 07:45:46 AM"Look we just don't have the numbers to keep things as they are, staff retention is down and we feel like the game is circling the drain. Here's what we're thinking of doing. Let's try and have an adult discussion about it all because at the end of the day we all want to play this game"

We could have done this. Not only is our hobby niche, but the dynamic and relationship of the community here is extremely unique and it's very difficult to know what the best course of action is in the best interests of the game. But one of the key reasons we didn't approach that conversation directly is because it's a conversation you guys have had a hundred times over already. All your ideas and input on how to improve the game area already all over this GDB and we have read it all already. The idea that we formulated is born of the conversations and ideas that players have already put forward over the last year or two or three and the things that they have expressed they desired or felt would be good for the game. The core asks being: consolidate but also don't get rid of what I love (but it's fine to get rid of what they love), improve player agency, improve interaction.

None of those things require the mud to be episodic nor for every role in the game to be force stored.

Anecdotally, the best way to provide a rich mud experience is to support the people who are there and are investing their time into the game and make their experience come to life, create factors in all areas of play that make the experience more lived in or dynamic, advert the dev cycle of the mud so that way improvements and additions and building is visible to the playerbase, and ensure that the starting area of play is populated or reactive.

Alienating former and current staff, current players, destroying current players' passion projects, and going into PR-Nightmare-Mode don't improve player agency or interaction between players.

Quote from: Diesel on December 07, 2023, 04:28:23 AMI play crafters more often than not, how will this change affect custom crafts? If we're jumping around throughout the timeline, will fashions change dramatically? Weapon/armor developments? Will custom craft time limits be shortened or extended?

Just making sure this is out there because I actually hold this question as well. If you have to wait 3 RL months to make a top tier GMH/Tribe weapon, but you only have ~1 RL year to play your character ... is the expectation to remain that in each "era" we can only really make (1) amazing level weapon? Will there be any tweaks so that amazing weapons are ACTUALLY amazing?

Quote from: FantasyWriter on December 07, 2023, 08:23:23 AM

Quote from: CirclelessBard on December 07, 2023, 07:37:56 AMI am fine with a DM making decisions by fiat for the table, as long as the DM is fine with players walking away from the campaign when they decide they're not comfortable with the decision. That does include how it's made. This is also how collaborative games function. The idea of "ownership" of a collaborative story is frankly a corrupting force to this whole conversation. The staff do indeed decide certain directions. The players decide what to contribute.

This is not to say that I am walking away, personally, but I certainly cannot blame people for doing so if they feel disappointed or disrespected, or that their contribution to the story is being discarded.

I agree with almost everything you said wholeheartedly except for the ownership being a corrupting force. It's the actual empirical truth of the situation, and accepting that as the truth and not what /we/ feel the game is to us, is essential to the mental health and expectations of the community.  Thinking of it as a bunch of friends who decide to run a campaign together and agree on rules at session 0 or 1, is a false ideal of what Armageddon is. It's one I often share, but its not the truth.

This is why I thought Kestria's comment about it being the decision of a very small group, not even full staff was so important of an observation. I /don't/ want to see the final flush down the drain. Do I think this was the best options, hell no, but again, what I think doesn't really matter. I fear it will be the Tuluki exodus again and again at the end of each season, but I /really/ hope that I am wrong.

I just think that arguments along the lines of "Producers own the game, so they can do what they want" are flawed as such arguments point out the obvious without striving for a higher standard. In general, the goal of a leader should be to understand not just that they have power, but when to wield it, and how. Yes, it is true that Producers own the game. No, it is not necessarily true that Producers should use ownership as a justification for change. The justification should come from actual reasoning, not a right to do something.

That said, Producers have made their case that they feel this is the best path forward. They said as much in the initial announcement and in replies to this thread. All we can really do now is see what happens. I will be around to see what happens, but damn if it isn't demoralizing to think about how many people won't be.

I just wish we had less of "this isn't a democracy" talk. When people say things like that, it's usually in the context of being a bully to push change through. As Tywin Lannister roughly said, "If you have to say you are the king, you are not the king." Just make decisions with confidence and show us the reasoning and the data behind those decisions. Tell us how you see the process going and what the full picture of the desired end result looks like. Tell us some pitfalls you anticipated and how you plan to work on avoiding those. But please don't just tell us "I can do this if I want to". We know that already.

I have moderated out some personal debate.  I want to try and keep this thread to Q&A and feedback and not people arguing with each other. I might need to look again.

Doing my best to be reasonable

Quote from: MarshallDFX on December 07, 2023, 11:34:30 AMI have moderated out some personal debate.  I want to try and keep this thread to Q&A and feedback and not people arguing with each other. I might need to look again.

Doing my best to be reasonable

Can you remove all the "my feelings" type shit?  It's a q and a thread not a thread to air your grievances or feelings.

Quote from: Pariah on December 07, 2023, 11:38:09 AM

Quote from: MarshallDFX on December 07, 2023, 11:34:30 AMI have moderated out some personal debate.  I want to try and keep this thread to Q&A and feedback and not people arguing with each other. I might need to look again.

Doing my best to be reasonable

Can you remove all the "my feelings" type shit?  It's a q and a thread not a thread to air your grievances or feelings.

It's hard to disentangle some of it and yes may do another look through the thread later to move posts. but for everybody:

Do use the feelings thread, yes, and try and keep this to more q&a

And look I've not locked the thread for any of this because I'm so desperate for your approval:)

:: worst moderator edit:: you have my approval -mansa

Quote from: Kestria on December 07, 2023, 03:11:52 AMThe producers clearly do not give a fig if their destruction and 'rebuild' plans are not taken by the playerbase, they can get new players, in their mind. This was the decision of 5 or 6 people, not the whole staff, because they didn't even tell their staffing team! Just 'a select few' that would share their vision and would help them try and make everyone see it is a good idea.

This is really shocking. Why is staff pushing this so hard?

Quote from: MarshallDFX on December 07, 2023, 11:40:57 AMAnd look I've not locked the thread for any of this because I'm so desperate for your approval:)

:: worst moderator edit:: you have my approval -mansa

I'll give you a sorta compliment, you are the least inept of them I've seen.

And since I'm trying to get the train back on the tracks and not be like OMG THE SKY IS FALLING! Like everyone else over a text based game...

Question:
So has the first season been decided yet? If so what areas of the world is there gonna be focus on?

If say it's focused in Allanak, will there still be the ability to travel to say Tuluk area or mantis grasslands area or will there be hard blocks on certain avenues to keep you in a smaller play area?

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 07, 2023, 12:39:22 PMWhy is staff pushing this so hard?

Because they're looking down the road and can see the writing on the wall with a slowly declining playerbase that's split across 2 major population centres. We can all argue about the details of the decision and how it was delivered, etc. but they clearly believe looking at the data that something has to be done soon to keep this game alive long-term. I'd completely agree with that assessment.

Quote from: Boggis on December 07, 2023, 01:05:21 PM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 07, 2023, 12:39:22 PMWhy is staff pushing this so hard?

Because they're looking down the road and can see the writing on the wall with a slowly declining playerbase that's split across 2 major population centres. We can all argue about the details of the decision and how it was delivered, etc. but they clearly believe looking at the data that something has to be done soon to keep this game alive long-term. I'd completely agree with that assessment.

Its one thing to anticipate on what's to come, but why only inform part of your staffing committee before announcing the change?

I don't understand why there is never a back and forth with these drastic changes. It's not

"Hey players, here's what we're looking to do, what do you think?", it's always

"Hey players, this is how it's going to be, whether you like it or not."

There's very little room to tweak parts of the proposed changes, or fix some issues that will pop up, but the handful of staffers that came up with the plan never thought of. I've repeatedly wished these plans were a little more flexible and open to feedback. There's always big discussions on the GDB that go absolutely nowhere and feel pointless, because staff are going to do what they're going to do and they will not diverge one bit from the original plan, because the plan is not a proposal, it's already set in stone.

Not sure if it was asked already. Perhaps someone else can tell me if so.

Is there a chance this will go back to a permanent game and not a 18 months. Like a trial? Or is this set in stone?

I like the idea of consolidating everyone to a certain region, specially for the number of players we have. It will make the city feel more alive.

Quote from: Kenchi on December 07, 2023, 02:34:33 PMNot sure if it was asked already. Perhaps someone else can tell me if so.

Is there a chance this will go back to a permanent game and not a 18 months. Like a trial? Or is this set in stone?

I like the idea of consolidating everyone to a certain region, specially for the number of players we have. It will make the city feel more alive.

Up to the Producers, but it feels like it's a set in stone thing.

[Personal attack removed - Nao]. The work people have put into their PCs over the years absolutely give them the right to be emotional about a hobby of theirs changing/ending so dramatically.

While I know "Seasons" is not for me. I am still interested in reading the opinions and feelings of many of our soon to be former players, as well as those who actually want this.

Quote from: dunecrawler on December 07, 2023, 02:22:18 PMI don't understand why there is never a back and forth with these drastic changes. It's not

"Hey players, here's what we're looking to do, what do you think?", it's always

"Hey players, this is how it's going to be, whether you like it or not."

There's very little room to tweak parts of the proposed changes, or fix some issues that will pop up, but the handful of staffers that came up with the plan never thought of. I've repeatedly wished these plans were a little more flexible and open to feedback. There's always big discussions on the GDB that go absolutely nowhere and feel pointless, because staff are going to do what they're going to do and they will not diverge one bit from the original plan, because the plan is not a proposal, it's already set in stone.

All of this. Hence my inquiry previous to this post.

Quote from: Usiku on December 07, 2023, 08:12:50 AMDo we really need a break?

Yes. This is one of the things we are firm on.

Why?

Good Question.

Quote from: Usiku on December 07, 2023, 08:12:50 AMBut one of the key reasons we didn't approach that conversation directly is because it's a conversation you guys have had a hundred times over already. All your ideas and input on how to improve the game area already all over this GDB and we have read it all already.

I still think it was a big mistake not to broach the topic directly. Yes such things may have been discussed in various threads but that's just general chatter without any expectation of action. Once a vision on the Staff side had coalesced presenting it as a "here's what we think - what do you guys think" thing would've been far better. And I'm one who basically agrees with the proposed vision - there's some parts I've got mixed feelings about but the general gist of it is good and I think necessary.

Once you present it for discussion first then a) it's not a done deal so less chance for people to fly off the handle (of course some will, it's Arm after all) and b) you've got a chance to hear specific feedback/questions on what are now concrete proposals as opposed to random threads - some of it might be really good and could influence what you have in mind. Even if you decide to not take any of the player feedback on board but show that you've listened and explain why you can't/won't it's just a better look all round. I know you can say you're doing that now but it needed to come first.

I would take your point about the unique player dynamic and I know some bad stuff happened over the past while. But this is essentially the biggest change being proposed for Arm that I've seen in 20+ years. Spending the time to try and bring the players along would've been time well spent. With this abrupt announcement the knee-jerk reaction for the times I play in is that we seem to have lost about 50% of the players. For me, this tips the game from running on the bare minimum for how we're currently setup to kind of unplayable where I'm wondering if it's worth my time to login and just sit in the Gaj for 2 hours and see 1 or 2 people. Maybe they'll come back once things cool down. If not, it could be time to pull the plug and start work on Arm Seasons to get it out there as quick as possible and see if people come back to that.

Quote from: Fredd on December 07, 2023, 04:54:17 PM

Quote from: Usiku on December 07, 2023, 08:12:50 AMDo we really need a break?

Yes. This is one of the things we are firm on.

Why?

Didn't she already answer that?

Quote from: UsikuTo be frank, this is really our opportunity to try and give this game a new lease of life - otherwise it is simply circling the drain and we do not want to just sit here and play hospice care to something we care about if we think there are options to give it a better chance. We are presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements. We are already receiving complaints from sponsored roles that they aren't getting the support they need and plots have been left hanging for great swathes of time. Our current situation is absolutely unsustainable.

We didn't want to permanently close large portions of the game (a la Tuluk), we didn't want to permanently destroy large portions of the game that people love and destroy all the history and legacy, we didn't want to sit back and watch the game die a slow and painful death while the last remaining staff just fielded endless complaints of dissatisfaction before finally shuttering, we didn't want to just shut down the game.

So this is what we are doing. This allows us to maintain the exact same world that you know and love, all of it, but we will just play bits of it at a time.

Or are you asking why they can't work on that plan while keeping the game running while being "presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements"?

Quote from: Malken on December 07, 2023, 07:07:46 PM

Quote from: Fredd on December 07, 2023, 04:54:17 PM

Quote from: Usiku on December 07, 2023, 08:12:50 AMDo we really need a break?

Yes. This is one of the things we are firm on.

Why?

Didn't she already answer that?

Quote from: UsikuTo be frank, this is really our opportunity to try and give this game a new lease of life - otherwise it is simply circling the drain and we do not want to just sit here and play hospice care to something we care about if we think there are options to give it a better chance. We are presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements. We are already receiving complaints from sponsored roles that they aren't getting the support they need and plots have been left hanging for great swathes of time. Our current situation is absolutely unsustainable.

We didn't want to permanently close large portions of the game (a la Tuluk), we didn't want to permanently destroy large portions of the game that people love and destroy all the history and legacy, we didn't want to sit back and watch the game die a slow and painful death while the last remaining staff just fielded endless complaints of dissatisfaction before finally shuttering, we didn't want to just shut down the game.

So this is what we are doing. This allows us to maintain the exact same world that you know and love, all of it, but we will just play bits of it at a time.

Or are you asking why they can't work on that plan while keeping the game running while being "presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements"?

Lets see: Leaving things on in skeleton mode while things are made would cost them no more manpower. They literally don't need staff for us to run around and punch things and cyber. At worst you need to approve characters maybe once a rl week. So yeah, why not dude?

Just be honest and say that's what's going on. Not really that hard.  People only complain, because they expect a response. Be honest, say no response is coming, the games on skeleton mode until reboot.

Also, if you read the rest of what i pulled that quote from, you'll see that there is NO PLANS to keep us informed on anything. The game goes down, and we HOPE we see this 'small marketing campaign' and come back.

C'mon dude. Your name reminds me of my favorite WOD vampire clan. But not even the malkavians would be crazy enough to to think this is a good idea.

It sounds like they are going to take a vacation from arm, decide not to deal with it anymore, and the game will never open again. And unless some sort of REAL PLAN emerges, it's going to be hard to dissuade me otherwise. Especially when every response from Hal and Usi  feel that way when I read them.

Lol wut?

Signs and wonders, my friends. Good luck to you all.

Quote from: Fredd on December 07, 2023, 07:23:08 PM

Quote from: Malken on December 07, 2023, 07:07:46 PM

Quote from: Fredd on December 07, 2023, 04:54:17 PM

Quote from: Usiku on December 07, 2023, 08:12:50 AMDo we really need a break?

Yes. This is one of the things we are firm on.

Why?

Didn't she already answer that?

Quote from: UsikuTo be frank, this is really our opportunity to try and give this game a new lease of life - otherwise it is simply circling the drain and we do not want to just sit here and play hospice care to something we care about if we think there are options to give it a better chance. We are presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements. We are already receiving complaints from sponsored roles that they aren't getting the support they need and plots have been left hanging for great swathes of time. Our current situation is absolutely unsustainable.

We didn't want to permanently close large portions of the game (a la Tuluk), we didn't want to permanently destroy large portions of the game that people love and destroy all the history and legacy, we didn't want to sit back and watch the game die a slow and painful death while the last remaining staff just fielded endless complaints of dissatisfaction before finally shuttering, we didn't want to just shut down the game.

So this is what we are doing. This allows us to maintain the exact same world that you know and love, all of it, but we will just play bits of it at a time.

Or are you asking why they can't work on that plan while keeping the game running while being "presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements"?

Lets see: Leaving things on in skeleton mode while things are made would cost them no more manpower. They literally don't need staff for us to run around and punch things and cyber. At worst you need to approve characters maybe once a rl week. So yeah, why not dude?

Just be honest and say that's what's going on. Not really that hard.  People only complain, because they expect a response. Be honest, say no response is coming, the games on skeleton mode until reboot.

Also, if you read the rest of what i pulled that quote from, you'll see that there is NO PLANS to keep us informed on anything. The game goes down, and we HOPE we see this 'small marketing campaign' and come back.

C'mon dude. Your name reminds me of my favorite WOD vampire clan. But not even the malkavians would be crazy enough to to think this is a good idea.

It sounds like they are going to take a vacation from arm, decide not to deal with it anymore, and the game will never open again. And unless some sort of REAL PLAN emerges, it's going to be hard to dissuade me otherwise. Especially when every response from Hal and Usi  feel that way when I read them.

Okay, so what is it that you want to hear? You already know that they don't have enough staff to run the game and are running out of ideas on how to save it. What do you mean by "Just be honest and say that's what's going on?" It's in the quote I just gave you. They are also probably burned out, stressed out and let's be honest, probably are not having a good time at all anymore running the game the way it is right now. Halester mentioned that he made a mistake announcing it so early when not all plans had been established. They've been pretty quiet today on the GDB and Discord so let's assume that they are talking about it and will announce further plans when ready? Halaster is also outspoken enough that if they planned to shut the game down, they wouldn't go about it sneakily. They already talked about shutting the game down in the not-so-distant past.

You're asking me my personal opinion - I think it's a fine idea but I also think that this will require a minimum of 6 months, so you need to be prepared to be without Armageddon for at least 6 months. That's a realistic timeline for such a plan, imho. I also personally really like Halaster, Usiku, Enthemu and Eurynomos, so I'm cheering for their success. I don't have to tell you that I'm far from being a staff sycophant, my GDB history speaks for itself.

Just take a couple of days off and do something else in the meantime.

Yeah.

Suggestion: leave the game running while staff gets ready for the first season. Cancel all staff support that goes beyond approving characters.

95% of the game is perfectly playable and fun without staff support. We'll be fine. Sponsored roles will take a hit, but even most leadership roles can keep running for quite a while without ever interacting with staff. It's how offpeak arm works half the time, and I promise that we're not all constantly having a bad experience. If someone really does not want to play staff-less arm, they can take a break, but the rest of us won't be forced into it - you'd simply leave that decision up to the players instead of making that decision for them.

I think this would help retain players, instead of shutting down for months on end and hoping that at least some of us come back at some unspecified point in the future.

Quote from: Malken on December 07, 2023, 08:09:23 PM

Quote from: Fredd on December 07, 2023, 07:23:08 PM

Quote from: Malken on December 07, 2023, 07:07:46 PM

Quote from: Fredd on December 07, 2023, 04:54:17 PM

Quote from: Usiku on December 07, 2023, 08:12:50 AMDo we really need a break?

Yes. This is one of the things we are firm on.

Why?

Didn't she already answer that?

Quote from: UsikuTo be frank, this is really our opportunity to try and give this game a new lease of life - otherwise it is simply circling the drain and we do not want to just sit here and play hospice care to something we care about if we think there are options to give it a better chance. We are presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements. We are already receiving complaints from sponsored roles that they aren't getting the support they need and plots have been left hanging for great swathes of time. Our current situation is absolutely unsustainable.

We didn't want to permanently close large portions of the game (a la Tuluk), we didn't want to permanently destroy large portions of the game that people love and destroy all the history and legacy, we didn't want to sit back and watch the game die a slow and painful death while the last remaining staff just fielded endless complaints of dissatisfaction before finally shuttering, we didn't want to just shut down the game.

So this is what we are doing. This allows us to maintain the exact same world that you know and love, all of it, but we will just play bits of it at a time.

Or are you asking why they can't work on that plan while keeping the game running while being "presently understaffed for the size of the game and the structure of our Administrative requirements"?

Lets see: Leaving things on in skeleton mode while things are made would cost them no more manpower. They literally don't need staff for us to run around and punch things and cyber. At worst you need to approve characters maybe once a rl week. So yeah, why not dude?

Just be honest and say that's what's going on. Not really that hard.  People only complain, because they expect a response. Be honest, say no response is coming, the games on skeleton mode until reboot.

Also, if you read the rest of what i pulled that quote from, you'll see that there is NO PLANS to keep us informed on anything. The game goes down, and we HOPE we see this 'small marketing campaign' and come back.

C'mon dude. Your name reminds me of my favorite WOD vampire clan. But not even the malkavians would be crazy enough to to think this is a good idea.

It sounds like they are going to take a vacation from arm, decide not to deal with it anymore, and the game will never open again. And unless some sort of REAL PLAN emerges, it's going to be hard to dissuade me otherwise. Especially when every response from Hal and Usi  feel that way when I read them.

Okay, so what is it that you want to hear? You already know that they don't have enough staff to run the game and are running out of ideas on how to save it. What do you mean by "Just be honest and say that's what's going on?" It's in the quote I just gave you. They are also probably burned out, stressed out and let's be honest, probably are not having a good time at all anymore running the game the way it is right now. Halester mentioned that he made a mistake announcing it so early when not all plans had been established. They've been pretty quiet today on the GDB and Discord so let's assume that they are talking about it and will announce further plans when ready? Halaster is also outspoken enough that if they planned to shut the game down, they wouldn't go about it sneakily. They already talked about shutting the game down in the not-so-distant past.

You're asking me my personal opinion - I think it's a fine idea but I also think that this will require a minimum of 6 months, so you need to be prepared to be without Armageddon for at least 6 months. That's a realistic timeline for such a plan, imho. I also personally really like Halaster, Usiku, Enthemu and Eurynomos, so I'm cheering for their success. I don't have to tell you that I'm far from being a staff sycophant, my GDB history speaks for itself.

Just take a couple of days off and do something else in the meantime.

It's not that I don't want to be without arm for 6 months. I take breaks of that long anyways.

What I want to hear, is the framework of contact to bring us back to the game.

Something that sounds like a real plan, you know?

Quote from: Kenchi on December 07, 2023, 02:34:33 PMNot sure if it was asked already. Perhaps someone else can tell me if so.

Is there a chance this will go back to a permanent game and not a 18 months. Like a trial? Or is this set in stone?

I like the idea of consolidating everyone to a certain region, specially for the number of players we have. It will make the city feel more alive.

Yes, it is set in stone, in that this is the vision we have for the game, this is the direction we're taking.  As Usiku posted here (https://gdb.armageddon.org/index.php/topic,60174.msg1101433.html#msg1101433) we are taking feedback about specific aspects of the plan.  But the meat of the plan - we're going to a seasonal model - is firm.

Is there ever a future where we revert back to the game like it is now?  Nothing's off the table.  We have no current intention to do so, and would most certainly let the Seasons plan play out for a while, but we've said internally along the lines that "if this doesn't work out after a while, we can always revert back".  We're saving the game as it is at the moment we close down for the break.  But I'll reiterate, we have no specific plans to revert back, only a far-off unlikely contingency.

This is really the only decision staff can make if they care about the games setting and culture of rp at the heart of this community. Anyone who cares about this games future as a collaborative effort needs to really separate what they personally enjoy about it or are emotionally attached to and maybe think about what is best for everyone.

They can either watch what they love die or actually try something, anything to hold onto what really matters here.

Sadly they might have to lose some of the people who stuck around so long, content.

Hopefully they gain back some of the people they lost who grew sick of the dwindling, listless drudge the game can be with infrequent interaction and everyone playing in their own separate castles.

Quote from: dunecrawler on December 07, 2023, 08:14:21 PMYeah.

Suggestion: leave the game running while staff gets ready for the first season. Cancel all staff support that goes beyond approving characters.

95% of the game is perfectly playable and fun without staff support. We'll be fine. Sponsored roles will take a hit, but even most leadership roles can keep running for quite a while without ever interacting with staff. It's how offpeak arm works half the time, and I promise that we're not all constantly having a bad experience. If someone really does not want to play staff-less arm, they can take a break, but the rest of us won't be forced into it - you'd simply leave that decision up to the players instead of making that decision for them.

I think this would help retain players, instead of shutting down for months on end and hoping that at least some of us come back at some unspecified point in the future.

What about:

- A crash happens, you lose your stuff.  There's no reimbursement forthcoming.

- Some obscure bug comes up and we get in a crash loop.  There's no help coming, it's stuck like that for a while potentially, becoming unplayable.  Or data corruption.  Or a server issue.

- Someone acting in bad faith knows staff aren't watching and starts doing some shitty stuff.  Complaints will go unanswered, and that person will get away with it, bringing harm to others potentially.

- GMH folks don't get things loaded for them that they need.

- Wishes go unanswered.

- Murder hobos go on killing sprees, you're out of luck.

- You die to a code bug.  There is no resurrection forthcoming.

- No clan form joining, leaving.

- No special apps, no advanced starts.


Would all of those things happen?  Probably not, but I think there's a lot more to it than is obvious.  I don't mean to poop on your parade, but I just think most people don't realize all the things that require staff attention to keep this old girl running as smoothly as we're able.

On top of that, staff have pride in their work and their game.  It'd be very hard not to step in knowing that something has gone wrong.

It's just too much of a distraction, and would lengthen the time it takes to get the Seasons project up and running.

Quote from: Halaster on December 07, 2023, 08:43:21 PM

Quote from: dunecrawler on December 07, 2023, 08:14:21 PMYeah.

Suggestion: leave the game running while staff gets ready for the first season. Cancel all staff support that goes beyond approving characters.

95% of the game is perfectly playable and fun without staff support. We'll be fine. Sponsored roles will take a hit, but even most leadership roles can keep running for quite a while without ever interacting with staff. It's how offpeak arm works half the time, and I promise that we're not all constantly having a bad experience. If someone really does not want to play staff-less arm, they can take a break, but the rest of us won't be forced into it - you'd simply leave that decision up to the players instead of making that decision for them.

I think this would help retain players, instead of shutting down for months on end and hoping that at least some of us come back at some unspecified point in the future.

What about:

- A crash happens, you lose your stuff.  There's no reimbursement forthcoming.

- Some obscure bug comes up and we get in a crash loop.  There's no help coming, it's stuck like that for a while potentially, becoming unplayable.  Or data corruption.  Or a server issue.

- Someone acting in bad faith knows staff aren't watching and starts doing some shitty stuff.  Complaints will go unanswered, and that person will get away with it, bringing harm to others potentially.

- GMH folks don't get things loaded for them that they need.

- Wishes go unanswered.

- Murder hobos go on killing sprees, you're out of luck.

- You die to a code bug.  There is no resurrection forthcoming.

- No clan form joining, leaving.

- No special apps, no advanced starts.


Would all of those things happen?  Probably not, but I think there's a lot more to it than is obvious.  I don't mean to poop on your parade, but I just think most people don't realize all the things that require staff attention to keep this old girl running as smoothly as we're able.

On top of that, staff have pride in their work and their game.  It'd be very hard not to step in knowing that something has gone wrong.

It's just too much of a distraction, and would lengthen the time it takes to get the Seasons project up and running.

I'm fine with all of the above.

Given how much abuse and rulebreaking went unnoticed just earlier this year that staff missed despite being present to watch for it, I cannot for the life of me imagine this game running with no staff support beyond character approval. That is setting the game up for certain failure. For all of the possible faults with this idea, the one right thing about it is that this game simply does not work without oversight, and the game will need to go down in between seasons or it will be a distraction for running the next season.

Quote from: Halaster on December 07, 2023, 08:43:21 PM

Quote from: dunecrawler on December 07, 2023, 08:14:21 PMYeah.

Suggestion: leave the game running while staff gets ready for the first season. Cancel all staff support that goes beyond approving characters.

95% of the game is perfectly playable and fun without staff support. We'll be fine. Sponsored roles will take a hit, but even most leadership roles can keep running for quite a while without ever interacting with staff. It's how offpeak arm works half the time, and I promise that we're not all constantly having a bad experience. If someone really does not want to play staff-less arm, they can take a break, but the rest of us won't be forced into it - you'd simply leave that decision up to the players instead of making that decision for them.

I think this would help retain players, instead of shutting down for months on end and hoping that at least some of us come back at some unspecified point in the future.

What about:

- A crash happens, you lose your stuff.  There's no reimbursement forthcoming.

- Some obscure bug comes up and we get in a crash loop.  There's no help coming, it's stuck like that for a while potentially, becoming unplayable.  Or data corruption.  Or a server issue.

- Someone acting in bad faith knows staff aren't watching and starts doing some shitty stuff.  Complaints will go unanswered, and that person will get away with it, bringing harm to others potentially.

- GMH folks don't get things loaded for them that they need.

- Wishes go unanswered.

- Murder hobos go on killing sprees, you're out of luck.

- You die to a code bug.  There is no resurrection forthcoming.

- No clan form joining, leaving.

- No special apps, no advanced starts.


Would all of those things happen?  Probably not, but I think there's a lot more to it than is obvious.  I don't mean to poop on your parade, but I just think most people don't realize all the things that require staff attention to keep this old girl running as smoothly as we're able.

On top of that, staff have pride in their work and their game.  It'd be very hard not to step in knowing that something has gone wrong.

It's just too much of a distraction, and would lengthen the time it takes to get the Seasons project up and running.

Crash reimbursement used to not be a thing, we can do without. We can do without clan forums, special apps and resurrections. I'm pretty sure most of my wishes over the years have gone unanswered. I've never liked the advanced starts. Murderhobo? You still have the option to stop playing, or deal with it ICly. Worst case, you lose your character, vs. guaranteed to lose your character. Game shuts down unexpectedly? Same result as the guaranteed shutdown, really.

Most of the bad things you listed are also a guaranteed consequence of the proposed shutdown, instead of just a maybe-oh-what-if-that-would-be-so-bad. It's like you're preemptively burning down the house, because you're worried that it might catch on fire.

Quote from: Halaster on December 07, 2023, 08:43:21 PM

Quote from: dunecrawler on December 07, 2023, 08:14:21 PMYeah.

Suggestion: leave the game running while staff gets ready for the first season. Cancel all staff support that goes beyond approving characters.

95% of the game is perfectly playable and fun without staff support. We'll be fine. Sponsored roles will take a hit, but even most leadership roles can keep running for quite a while without ever interacting with staff. It's how offpeak arm works half the time, and I promise that we're not all constantly having a bad experience. If someone really does not want to play staff-less arm, they can take a break, but the rest of us won't be forced into it - you'd simply leave that decision up to the players instead of making that decision for them.

I think this would help retain players, instead of shutting down for months on end and hoping that at least some of us come back at some unspecified point in the future.

stuff

I would made a character tonight.

Quote from: Halaster on December 07, 2023, 08:43:21 PM

Quote from: dunecrawler on December 07, 2023, 08:14:21 PMYeah.

Suggestion: leave the game running while staff gets ready for the first season. Cancel all staff support that goes beyond approving characters.

95% of the game is perfectly playable and fun without staff support. We'll be fine. Sponsored roles will take a hit, but even most leadership roles can keep running for quite a while without ever interacting with staff. It's how offpeak arm works half the time, and I promise that we're not all constantly having a bad experience. If someone really does not want to play staff-less arm, they can take a break, but the rest of us won't be forced into it - you'd simply leave that decision up to the players instead of making that decision for them.

I think this would help retain players, instead of shutting down for months on end and hoping that at least some of us come back at some unspecified point in the future.

What about:

- A crash happens, you lose your stuff.  There's no reimbursement forthcoming.

- Some obscure bug comes up and we get in a crash loop.  There's no help coming, it's stuck like that for a while potentially, becoming unplayable.  Or data corruption.  Or a server issue.

- Someone acting in bad faith knows staff aren't watching and starts doing some shitty stuff.  Complaints will go unanswered, and that person will get away with it, bringing harm to others potentially.

- GMH folks don't get things loaded for them that they need.

- Wishes go unanswered.

- Murder hobos go on killing sprees, you're out of luck.

- You die to a code bug.  There is no resurrection forthcoming.

- No clan form joining, leaving.

- No special apps, no advanced starts.


Would all of those things happen?  Probably not, but I think there's a lot more to it than is obvious.  I don't mean to poop on your parade, but I just think most people don't realize all the things that require staff attention to keep this old girl running as smoothly as we're able.

On top of that, staff have pride in their work and their game.  It'd be very hard not to step in knowing that something has gone wrong.

It's just too much of a distraction, and would lengthen the time it takes to get the Seasons project up and running.

Some of that makes sense, some of that I scratch my head at.

I could try to debate this, but I play in Tuluk alot, I can read the subtext in this post.

I hope ya'll enjoy your vacation. But some measure of contact during this time would make those of us a bit scared for the game feel a lot better.

I have removed posts about murderhobo'ing. It's a worthy topic just not in this thread, and please don't call out individuals or effectively make a public staff complaint

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 07, 2023, 01:09:54 PM

Quote from: Boggis on December 07, 2023, 01:05:21 PM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 07, 2023, 12:39:22 PMWhy is staff pushing this so hard?

Because they're looking down the road and can see the writing on the wall with a slowly declining playerbase that's split across 2 major population centres. We can all argue about the details of the decision and how it was delivered, etc. but they clearly believe looking at the data that something has to be done soon to keep this game alive long-term. I'd completely agree with that assessment.

Its one thing to anticipate on what's to come, but why only inform part of your staffing committee before announcing the change?

Since this Q wasn't A yet.

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 08, 2023, 04:23:54 AM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 07, 2023, 01:09:54 PM

Quote from: Boggis on December 07, 2023, 01:05:21 PM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 07, 2023, 12:39:22 PMWhy is staff pushing this so hard?

Because they're looking down the road and can see the writing on the wall with a slowly declining playerbase that's split across 2 major population centres. We can all argue about the details of the decision and how it was delivered, etc. but they clearly believe looking at the data that something has to be done soon to keep this game alive long-term. I'd completely agree with that assessment.

Its one thing to anticipate on what's to come, but why only inform part of your staffing committee before announcing the change?

Since this Q wasn't A yet.

They havent said it in plain text. But i've been looking between the lines and I got an educated guess.

The north has had like 8 ST's in 4 months. They show up, answer a singular report, and are gone the next week. But they haven't exactly been doing that many staffing RC's... Why?

They aren't getting enough staff apps to maintain the turnover. And not enough staff to maintain the game.
Reducing the game to 25% of it's size lets them use their core staff to handle everything, and rotate new ones through. the new staff organization chart helps prove this, as it was made to lower the amount of staff needed to handle the whole game.

This next part is pure speculation based on the evidence at hand. But the evidence seems strong:

This all points to a toxic environment for staff, made by other staff. When I see a new ST come in happy and strong-willed but be gone in a rl week with almost no interaction with payers... Well, that screams something pretty loudly there. Do this 4-5 times, and you have enough screaming to make a metal album.

Maybe this is going to be used to politely remove said toxic parts? Let's hope so. Because that toxic environment would be the real poison that's killing arm.

edit: Who the toxic one/ones would be I have no idea. All the current remaining staff have been 100% cool to me. Enth has always been level with me, I love Kat, and I don't think I've done much with Usi. Also, i have no idea who staffs the south. Just wanted to add this part so mods don't think i'm subtly pointing at someone here. I got no inside info, i don't talk to ya'll for the most part. This is just very obvious evidence I'm discussing here.

Quote from: Fredd on December 08, 2023, 09:53:46 AM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 08, 2023, 04:23:54 AM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 07, 2023, 01:09:54 PM

Quote from: Boggis on December 07, 2023, 01:05:21 PM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 07, 2023, 12:39:22 PMWhy is staff pushing this so hard?

Because they're looking down the road and can see the writing on the wall with a slowly declining playerbase that's split across 2 major population centres. We can all argue about the details of the decision and how it was delivered, etc. but they clearly believe looking at the data that something has to be done soon to keep this game alive long-term. I'd completely agree with that assessment.

Its one thing to anticipate on what's to come, but why only inform part of your staffing committee before announcing the change?

Since this Q wasn't A yet.

-snip-

It points to a toxic or unmaintainable culture in the northern staffing team.

Whether it's staff-staff, staff-player, leader-staff remains to be seen but judging by how many northern staff have joined and then quit my gut reaction is to say that it's a Staff-Staff problem.

Quote from: betweenford on December 08, 2023, 10:33:57 AM

Quote from: Fredd on December 08, 2023, 09:53:46 AM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 08, 2023, 04:23:54 AM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 07, 2023, 01:09:54 PM

Quote from: Boggis on December 07, 2023, 01:05:21 PM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 07, 2023, 12:39:22 PMWhy is staff pushing this so hard?

Because they're looking down the road and can see the writing on the wall with a slowly declining playerbase that's split across 2 major population centres. We can all argue about the details of the decision and how it was delivered, etc. but they clearly believe looking at the data that something has to be done soon to keep this game alive long-term. I'd completely agree with that assessment.

Its one thing to anticipate on what's to come, but why only inform part of your staffing committee before announcing the change?

Since this Q wasn't A yet.

-snip-

It points to a toxic or unmaintainable culture in the northern staffing team.

Whether it's staff-staff, staff-player, leader-staff remains to be seen but judging by how many northern staff have joined and then quit my gut reaction is to say that it's a Staff-Staff problem.

Valid point

It's not a simple one thing. I've had 5 admins since joining and I've been on Indy the whole time.  It's possible I'm the problem.  It's more likely it's many things

I would say it's something more simple. New STs come in and they've got some ideas sure. Then they get into the reality of what it means to help run all the clans, they're over-stretched out the gate, there's player complaints and it's just not fun. Then they decide this isn't what I thought it was going to be and you know what I could be doing something better with my time and just quit.

I've had my temper tantrum and just accepted that this is the end of Arm - for me at least. It's a game where I fell in love with the game and also ended up married to another player. I've been to meetups and invested unbelievable hours into it even with taking huge breaks in between playing.

I doubt any game will ever suck me in the way this one did.

The smartest thing I did was steer clear of the various chat channels and discussion boards and just logged in and played my little low-stakes background characters.

It was super fun to explore and get scared and make friends in taverns.

My regrets:

* I wish I had played a killer at least once but knowing how much it hurts to lose a character I just couldn't do it.
* I wish I had played a thief/'rinthi character but I loved exploring the outdoors too much.

Thanks to everyone for all their effort. I know there's been some really bad things that have gone down and incredible toxicity but I'm just gonna remember the really fun times.

Quote from: Boggis on December 08, 2023, 11:47:38 AMI would say it's something more simple. New STs come in and they've got some ideas sure. Then they get into the reality of what it means to help run all the clans, they're over-stretched out the gate, there's player complaints and it's just not fun. Then they decide this isn't what I thought it was going to be and you know what I could be doing something better with my time and just quit.

Organizational Development would say that if the realities of the position are not communicated up front, that is a fault of the organization. Standard Turnover rates in most organizations look at the 90day mark.

Quote from: Kaathe on December 08, 2023, 11:27:14 AMIt's not a simple one thing. I've had 5 admins since joining and I've been on Indy the whole time.  It's possible I'm the problem.  It's more likely it's many things

See I had no idea about this. Damn, that does add a bit more context.

Quote from: Fredd on December 08, 2023, 09:53:46 AMThey aren't getting enough staff apps to maintain the turnover.

Ehh. I've been applying. People I know have been. None of us have been selected. The amount of applications is there; why they keep chasing them off is anyone's guess.

Quote from: Riev on December 08, 2023, 12:02:51 PMOrganizational Development would say that if the realities of the position are not communicated up front, that is a fault of the organization. Standard Turnover rates in most organizations look at the 90day mark.

I'd say they probably are to some extent. But people will think I'll be alright, it won't get to me. Then they run into the playerbase in all it's glory and, honestly, I don't know if I could stick it. I remember 10+ years ago I was introduced into an OOC channel of players through one of the few players I did know OOC. That was eye opening. I'd always suspected it but the amount of cheating, bitching & whining  and general assholery was incredible. It honestly ruined the game a bit for me knowing who these characters were IC and also knowing what they were getting up to. It wouldn't surprise me if things haven't changed for the better. Having to deal with all that kind of stuff has to be wearying as staff. Then throw on top of that all the largely frivolous complaints to deal with.

I'm sure there's other issues too. I'd bet that all the documentation is kind of a mess as there's never really been time to properly tidy it up and other stuff takes priority. Anyone who's worked for an organization knows what I'm talking about.

And as they're overstretched they're probably in fire fighting mode where people are being asked to help out wherever the current big ticket problem is. Anyone who's worked for an organization where resources are tight knows what I'm talking about.

Then are there intra-staff issues? Quite possible though I'd like to think that the current staff are decent. I've had zero issues with any of my interactions with them.

Throw it all together though and you've got a position that's challenging. A number of people who are volunteering to do something will just quit once reality hits home. Why keep doing something every day that's just not fun?

My point led more towards determining what the biggest issues are leading to high turnover. Which staff did. They said it was the workload.

They didn't say the biggest complaint was players, OOC behaviors, or intra-staff issues. It was the amount of actual work required for the lowest man on the totem pole.

Rather than try to find a way to reduce the workload (initially), staff preferred to give more boons and boosts to new staffers. Playing your character while staffing. Not having to engage in player plots if you don't want to. Doing only the work you WANT to do.

It was a misstep, and there are many players who wanted to help. I have a Masters is Organizational Development and Leadership. I know another player who recently got their Black Belt in Lean/Six Sigma (related to efficiency and team building).

Staff world is so insulated and denigrates players so much that people who want to help are disregarded.

Quote from: Patuk on December 08, 2023, 12:29:14 PM

Quote from: Fredd on December 08, 2023, 09:53:46 AMThey aren't getting enough staff apps to maintain the turnover.

Ehh. I've been applying. People I know have been. None of us have been selected. The amount of applications is there; why they keep chasing them off is anyone's guess.

I used to have an interest in being a builder despite the supposed mundaneity of the role or lack of benefits.

Every time I asked I was basically met with a similar handful of responses. "We aren't looking for builders right now." "We have no active projects that a builder might be necessary for." "Previously, some people didn't like it." (paraphrased responses)


The amount of times I've basically done a builder's work while relying on someone else to approve my edits has kinda been interesting, with just player available tools. Especially since that's basically what a Builder does. Me and Aromit did the Tarantula dungeons(the one I designed was supposedly the biggest, with a minor amount of rooms added to pad it out and make it feel bigger), I trawled through a bunch of southern Kadius stuff and got 100+ items recipes that were previously uncraftable (and a bunch of others fixed that were incorrectly tagged), assisted with the Tree Project (Cynipri, Pymlithe, Styrax Lumber Axe, Cylini Plank, and some minor auditing for stuff that Ath wasn't aware of and some inconsistencies in staffside documentation; Usiku's updates to my own items were neat), bad website documentation being reworded with the forum-side Helpfile project. A billion wishups to fix broken items.

I don't personally think building/crafting work has ever been that hard to implement, and there's always been an insistence that the rate at which items/rooms/crafts get implemented was adequate/fine/bloated/excessive on staffside. And alot of times it's not bureaucracy or the request tool getting in the way, it's just entrenched pace/culture/time-limitations. 

SO I guess here's my q for the qna: Why now, is the Building Team being up for consideration again? There's the obvious answer of a game structure overhaul and a potentially increased workload for Seasons, but what changed in staff attitudes for the sudden shift in 'need'? What assurances are there that the crafting system and DB will be padded out, rooms will be worked on etc; because historically the pace at which DB and map updates happen in Arm is glacial compared to other muds.

Usually, getting rooms updated in Armageddon has always been fighting tooth and nail to actually get player-side-effort set into the game, and it was never usually the request tool getting in the way but staff culture, staff turnover, or disinterest to actually get things "done" unless niche criteria were met... It's been said that player agency will be increased, but will it actually be easier for someone to make room-specific impact in the game instead of having to fight for it?

More cooks in the kitchen do get things done faster, but is there any project management, deadlines, etc for the upcoming Building Team?

Quote from: Riev on December 08, 2023, 01:30:14 PMPlaying your character while staffing. Not having to engage in player plots if you don't want to. Doing only the work you WANT to do.

Are you talking like, historically? Obviously we haven't been able to play while staffing since march and even prior to that it was only admin+ who could do it for who knows how long.

I have never heard of player plot support being optional.  Limited maybe out of time constraints and fairness, but not optional.

Doing only the work you want to do did seem like a thing that used to be. But if you're not resolving your clans request or adequately communicating what you're doing then you do get in trouble. It definitely feels like a job at times.  That's not bad. Responsibility feels like that at times. 

Quote from: Riev on December 08, 2023, 01:30:14 PMRather than try to find a way to reduce the workload (initially), staff preferred to give more boons and boosts to new staffers. Playing your character while staffing. Not having to engage in player plots if you don't want to. Doing only the work you WANT to do.

It was a misstep, and there are many players who wanted to help. I have a Masters is Organizational Development and Leadership. I know another player who recently got their Black Belt in Lean/Six Sigma (related to efficiency and team building).

I wouldn't really disagree with that if that's the case. If it is I know Staff would probably say it was the only way to get people to join as Staff. But either way it's done now. From the Announcement post it looks like they've recognised this and Staff won't be able to play characters during each Season and will focus solely on staffing & story-telling. I think this is a good change.

I've got almost 25 years now working for large financial institutions, have run various large projects & programmes, etc. so yes there's a wealth of valuable experience and knowledge among the playerbase that potentially could be leveraged. I doubt there's any issues that Arm is facing on the Staff side that we haven't seen at work in some form or fashion over the years. Usually the actual fixes for these are simple enough - it's typically more a question of time, finite resources & competing priorities. With the upcoming downtime it could be a good opportunity for the Staff to use some of that experience out there to get some additional help.

Quote from: Fredd on December 08, 2023, 09:53:46 AM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 08, 2023, 04:23:54 AM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 07, 2023, 01:09:54 PM

Quote from: Boggis on December 07, 2023, 01:05:21 PM

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 07, 2023, 12:39:22 PMWhy is staff pushing this so hard?

Because they're looking down the road and can see the writing on the wall with a slowly declining playerbase that's split across 2 major population centres. We can all argue about the details of the decision and how it was delivered, etc. but they clearly believe looking at the data that something has to be done soon to keep this game alive long-term. I'd completely agree with that assessment.

Its one thing to anticipate on what's to come, but why only inform part of your staffing committee before announcing the change?

Since this Q wasn't A yet.

They havent said it in plain text. But i've been looking between the lines and I got an educated guess.

The north has had like 8 ST's in 4 months. They show up, answer a singular report, and are gone the next week. But they haven't exactly been doing that many staffing RC's... Why?

They aren't getting enough staff apps to maintain the turnover. And not enough staff to maintain the game.
Reducing the game to 25% of it's size lets them use their core staff to handle everything, and rotate new ones through. the new staff organization chart helps prove this, as it was made to lower the amount of staff needed to handle the whole game.

This next part is pure speculation based on the evidence at hand. But the evidence seems strong:

This all points to a toxic environment for staff, made by other staff. When I see a new ST come in happy and strong-willed but be gone in a rl week with almost no interaction with payers... Well, that screams something pretty loudly there. Do this 4-5 times, and you have enough screaming to make a metal album.

Maybe this is going to be used to politely remove said toxic parts? Let's hope so. Because that toxic environment would be the real poison that's killing arm.

edit: Who the toxic one/ones would be I have no idea. All the current remaining staff have been 100% cool to me. Enth has always been level with me, I love Kat, and I don't think I've done much with Usi. Also, i have no idea who staffs the south. Just wanted to add this part so mods don't think i'm subtly pointing at someone here. I got no inside info, i don't talk to ya'll for the most part. This is just very obvious evidence I'm discussing here.

Raising this again because there are only more questions rising up from this inquiry. It seems people did apply for staff but were declined.

Plus the fact that only part of the resident staff were informed about this major change in the game...

Why the secrecy? Why were other staffers not involved regarding this decision? I sympathize with these people, truly. It probably feels like a stab in the back, and no wonder that a lot of them are stepping away from the staffing crew.

One of the things I'm more excited about - is the potential to reduce the OOC knowledge barriers that we have.

Since it seems that there is an overarching goal or storyline for each season, this can be shared with the playerbase to get everybody on board.
This can also be designed in such a way that OOC cheating can be ... eliminated?  Or at least -expected- and designed with that in mind - players shouldn't have a way of spoiling the plot.  It can be designed so that any spoilers provided don't actually spoil everything.

Just a few before I go to bed...

Quote from: FamousAmos on December 07, 2023, 01:09:54 PMIts one thing to anticipate on what's to come, but why only inform part of your staffing committee before announcing the change?

You say this like staff only found out about the plan via the announcement on the GDB or something? This is not the case. The timeline for communication has been regrettably fast but staff were informed ahead of the announcement to the wider community. The decision, however, was made by the leadership team.

Quote from: Boggis on December 08, 2023, 01:11:42 PMI'd say they probably are to some extent. But people will think I'll be alright, it won't get to me. Then they run into the playerbase in all it's glory and, honestly, I don't know if I could stick it. I remember 10+ years ago I was introduced into an OOC channel of players through one of the few players I did know OOC. That was eye opening. I'd always suspected it but the amount of cheating, bitching & whining  and general assholery was incredible. It honestly ruined the game a bit for me knowing who these characters were IC and also knowing what they were getting up to. It wouldn't surprise me if things haven't changed for the better. Having to deal with all that kind of stuff has to be wearying as staff. Then throw on top of that all the largely frivolous complaints to deal with.

I'm sure there's other issues too. I'd bet that all the documentation is kind of a mess as there's never really been time to properly tidy it up and other stuff takes priority. Anyone who's worked for an organization knows what I'm talking about.

And as they're overstretched they're probably in fire fighting mode where people are being asked to help out wherever the current big ticket problem is. Anyone who's worked for an organization where resources are tight knows what I'm talking about.

Then are there intra-staff issues? Quite possible though I'd like to think that the current staff are decent. I've had zero issues with any of my interactions with them.

Throw it all together though and you've got a position that's challenging. A number of people who are volunteering to do something will just quit once reality hits home. Why keep doing something every day that's just not fun?

Uhh. Are you.. Secretly on staff or something?

Quote from: betweenford on December 08, 2023, 01:41:19 PMWhy now, is the Building Team being up for consideration again? There's the obvious answer of a game structure overhaul and a potentially increased workload for Seasons, but what changed in staff attitudes for the sudden shift in 'need'?

It's been said that player agency will be increased, but will it actually be easier for someone to make room-specific impact in the game instead of having to fight for it?

More cooks in the kitchen do get things done faster, but is there any project management, deadlines, etc for the upcoming Building Team?

I'm not sure where you are getting this from but we haven't really had any discussions on our side about reopening the builder team, at least not that I have been a part of. There is a big difference between people in the community saying they would join as builders and us actually having an intent to open the builder team again. So with that in mind, no, there is nothing in place for the upcoming Building Team, because it does not exist.

Re. player agency and room-specific impact, yes. We are hoping for more player agency across the board and this would be part of that. Less 'no's' and more 'yes and or no but's.

Quote from: mansa on December 08, 2023, 04:00:09 PMOne of the things I'm more excited about - is the potential to reduce the OOC knowledge barriers that we have.

Since it seems that there is an overarching goal or storyline for each season, this can be shared with the playerbase to get everybody on board.
This can also be designed in such a way that OOC cheating can be ... eliminated?  Or at least -expected- and designed with that in mind - players shouldn't have a way of spoiling the plot.  It can be designed so that any spoilers provided don't actually spoil everything.

I'm not quite understanding what you mean. How would it help cheating? Because we'd all know the overarching plot for that season? People could still try to collude, I'd think. It seems almost like it might happen more often because people would be able to share more about their characters and events in game after each season.

Edit - I suppose Im not understanding what you mean by knowledge barriers and Im curious about that

Quote from: Usiku on December 08, 2023, 04:57:55 PM-snip builders snip-

IIRC it was Halaster on Discord who had said that builders were likely going to be opened up.

And then Lizzie said around pretty immediately that she'd put in an application.

Edit: If the builder team isn't even a consideration, contrary to Halaster, then uhhhhhhh... lol? Sorry to say but that doesn't really get already stifled hopes up about the future of the project. There seems to be alot of that, the right hand not talking to the left.

I've been digesting all that has been posted and noone is acknowledging that maybe the problem is not the game itself, it's the way it's being run. A Mud is supposed to be about the players making changes and letting things evolve naturally not gripping with an iron fist and dictating how things should be run. You can't expect players to want to conform to the way YOU want things to be, they get beat down with being set back because YOU choose things to go this way. Sponsored roles and what not, you making things happen as opposed to letting people make things happen. Going about the game business as usual, cutting out things that people enjoy, ie removing a certain water area and replacing with a spire, why? What's the point of what you are doing? People might have enjoyed an area now it's all in darkness, certain little things like a certain hole removed.  WHY are you destroying things that people liked? Why did you close Tuluk before?  The excuse cannot be that there is not enough staff, the problem is the way things are being done.

The playerbase has spoken when it comes to the upcoming changes, do a /who on a Friday, 10 people, 4 people etc.
Pursuing something without proper input is how we got here in the first place.  Forcing people to comply with your whims and desires is how we got here in the first place. We're repeating all the mistakes in different forms. Karma, don't get me started on Karma.

Quote from: papertiger on December 08, 2023, 05:53:01 PM

Quote from: mansa on December 08, 2023, 04:00:09 PMOne of the things I'm more excited about - is the potential to reduce the OOC knowledge barriers that we have.

Since it seems that there is an overarching goal or storyline for each season, this can be shared with the playerbase to get everybody on board.
This can also be designed in such a way that OOC cheating can be ... eliminated?  Or at least -expected- and designed with that in mind - players shouldn't have a way of spoiling the plot.  It can be designed so that any spoilers provided don't actually spoil everything.

I'm not quite understanding what you mean. How would it help cheating? Because we'd all know the overarching plot for that season? People could still try to collude, I'd think. It seems almost like it might happen more often because people would be able to share more about their characters and events in game after each season.

Edit - I suppose Im not understanding what you mean by knowledge barriers and Im curious about that

Yeah.  I'll make up an example.

Plot:
* Overarching Goal - Shake up the Noble Hierarchy in Allanak by having the players find a macguffin item, which is hidden somewhere in the known world. 
* Once this object is found, it needs to find its way to NPC XYZ, who will give players hints about its wearables until it is received and returned to him. 
-> If it is recovered and 'stored' in a warehouse, have it echo or draw the occupying player and give them hints to find the owner, NPC XYZ.
* After NPC XYZ has the object, have them require additional objects A, B, and C to make the object "function".
* Once all the items are collected, have the event happen.
* Based on the participation of the Noble Houses in Allanak in this fetch quest, they will shift in rank.


This quest can be spoiled by a few things:
a) players figure out where it is BEFORE they know its importance, and get it.
b) players keep the object, and give it to the opposite faction which stores it forever.
c) players prevent the collection of objects A, B, C, without actually having a reason to.

So, let's look at the plot again and treat it like the players already know everything, including /what/ to collect, /what it will do/, and /where to get it/ BEFORE it's time.

This is more of a wish for long-term plot design fundamentals, of which has an underlying understanding that players will talk amongst themselves as players about the cool events they are engaging with.  And when a player talks to another player, the "cheating" or "In-Character actions based on Out-Of-Character knowledge" that can happen will be something that ultimately can't ruin the plot.  Build the world plot that can withstand players using OOC information in-game, and when the players cheat it doesn't actually affect the game plot.

Quote from: mansa on December 08, 2023, 06:26:20 PMThis is more of a wish for long-term plot design fundamentals, of which has an underlying understanding that players will talk amongst themselves as players about the cool events they are engaging with.  And when a player talks to another player, the "cheating" or "In-Character actions based on Out-Of-Character knowledge" that can happen will be something that ultimately can't ruin the plot.  Build the world plot that can withstand players using OOC information in-game, and when the players cheat it doesn't actually affect the game plot.

I get your intent but I do enjoy the super secret hush hush things that I've been able to learn. I've learned things by using listen and spread them to others, getting myself awkwardly tangled at least in a minor way in plots my character otherwise wouldn't be exposed to. Its always fun when I get different chunks of the story but cant work out how they fit together. It makes me feel like networking is important and I like that. Its a risk for my soldier buddy to spill secrets and a risk for me to hear them.

I just hope they'd protect some of that mystery for us. I know its a balance because getting too secretive can cut people off from engaging with the world plot. It *does* feel a bit like plot is in little pockets or stuck behind ranks or clans and can be difficult to penetrate. Your idea could help everyone feel more included. I suppose there could be a way to maintain some secrets. (So and so is a mindworm gasp, did you hear bro guy is on the wrong side of the Guild, that gemmed got turned into a newt and sacrificed to Jim the Templar for extra power etc)

Fredd and I have both posted similar comments in this thread and I have yet to see any substantial answers.

If the game is to survive, then this transition will need to be managed very well.  Otherwise your work is in vain.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET US BACK? There must be a clear and tangible program of player retention in place, before you shut down the game.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO KEEP US INVESTED, ENGAGED AND EXCITED DURING THE TRANSITION? Details please.

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO COMMUNICATE WITH US DURING THE TRANSITION?  YOU MUST KEEP US INFORMED. It should not be up to us to hunt you down or come to the GDB or Discord.  Communication should be regular, informative and engaging.

If you do not have answers to these questions, then you have moved too soon and are moving too fast.

Re the building thing - as I've said often since this was announced, my only significant "problem" with this situation is the down-time. And so, to minimize it for myself personally I said I would offer to return to staff as a builder. Because that'd mean - while the game was closed to players, it'd still be open for me to build! It was me, offering a solution to my own personal concern. They don't have to take me up on it and might not need anyone to do it. Or they might need people and pick someone else.

I just threw it out there since I'd already been a builder, and I'd been on staff, and would rather build on the closed-to-player game, than not be in the game at all for a couple of months.

Quote from: Lizzie on December 08, 2023, 06:56:29 PMRe the building thing - as I've said often since this was announced, my only significant "problem" with this situation is the down-time. And so, to minimize it for myself personally I said I would offer to return to staff as a builder. Because that'd mean - while the game was closed to players, it'd still be open for me to build! It was me, offering a solution to my own personal concern. They don't have to take me up on it and might not need anyone to do it. Or they might need people and pick someone else.

I just threw it out there since I'd already been a builder, and I'd been on staff, and would rather build on the closed-to-player game, than not be in the game at all for a couple of months.

I distinctly remember Halaster supporting this but I could be wrong, been a couple of days and I've since left the discord.

Would the staff please consider telling us where the current active plots are centered and supported and what clans (loosely) are involved once you nail down a set date for closing? I'm on a relatively fresh character but would like to support ongoing ending plots.

I figure you're essentially doing this anyway with Seasons (consolidating players) so I figured I'd ask.

Quote from: mansa on December 08, 2023, 06:26:20 PMYeah.  I'll make up an example.
Build the world plot that can withstand players using OOC information in-game, and when the players cheat it doesn't actually affect the game plot.

I think trying to craft a metaplot with the requirement that cheating couldn't possibly spoil it would be incredibly creatively limiting. We do not intend to spill the entire plot up front, I imagine you will get something akin to a book blurb and you will need to play the game to experience the story, and the plot will unfold in different directions based on player action.

Quote from: Norcal on December 08, 2023, 06:46:13 PMHOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET US BACK?

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO KEEP US INVESTED, ENGAGED AND EXCITED DURING THE TRANSITION?

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO COMMUNICATE WITH US DURING THE TRANSITION?  YOU MUST KEEP US INFORMED.

• By crafting a game and experience that you want to come back and play.
• It is not our intent to keep you engaged during the entire break, though we will keep you updated via an opt-in email newsletter.
• We will update via the opt-in email newsletter. Closer to launch we will be sending out newsletters as well as updating the website, GDB and posting on platforms such as reddit.

Quote from: papertiger on December 08, 2023, 08:21:29 PMWould the staff please consider telling us where the current active plots are centered and supported and what clans (loosely) are involved once you nail down a set date for closing? I'm on a relatively fresh character but would like to support ongoing ending plots.

I will have a chat with the Admins and see if we can update the roles GDB thread to point people towards the clans/areas that need PCs to help drive forward the currently active plots.

Quote from: Usiku on December 09, 2023, 11:02:51 AM

Quote from: mansa on December 08, 2023, 06:26:20 PMYeah.  I'll make up an example.
Build the world plot that can withstand players using OOC information in-game, and when the players cheat it doesn't actually affect the game plot.

I think trying to craft a metaplot with the requirement that cheating couldn't possibly spoil it would be incredibly creatively limiting. We do not intend to spill the entire plot up front, I imagine you will get something akin to a book blurb and you will need to play the game to experience the story, and the plot will unfold in different directions based on player action.

Quote from: Norcal on December 08, 2023, 06:46:13 PMHOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET US BACK?

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO KEEP US INVESTED, ENGAGED AND EXCITED DURING THE TRANSITION?

HOW ARE YOU GOING TO COMMUNICATE WITH US DURING THE TRANSITION?  YOU MUST KEEP US INFORMED.

• By crafting a game and experience that you want to come back and play.
• It is not our intent to keep you engaged during the entire break, though we will keep you updated via an opt-in email newsletter.
• We will update via the opt-in email newsletter. Closer to launch we will be sending out newsletters as well as updating the website, GDB and posting on platforms such as reddit.

Quote from: papertiger on December 08, 2023, 08:21:29 PMWould the staff please consider telling us where the current active plots are centered and supported and what clans (loosely) are involved once you nail down a set date for closing? I'm on a relatively fresh character but would like to support ongoing ending plots.

I will have a chat with the Admins and see if we can update the roles GDB thread to point people towards the clans/areas that need PCs to help drive forward the currently active plots.

Well, an opt in newsletter is at least SOMETHING. I can't say it's the best answer. But I can accept that.

Quote from: Usiku on December 09, 2023, 11:02:51 AMI think trying to craft a metaplot with the requirement that cheating couldn't possibly spoil it would be incredibly creatively limiting.

Metaplots don't have to include secrets as central elements of the narrative. The copper war (the first one, not whatever this recent imitation was) is often hailed as one of the high points of Armageddon's history, and it didn't really depend on trusting players not to share secrets. If anything, I think it would be a mistake to base a gamewide metaplot on secrets that players are expected to keep to themselves, because that's kind of boring and non-inclusive. A metaplot should be something everyone can find out about and get involved with. Leave the secrets to smaller player-run plots.

just a question for my own curiosity
was Arm purchased by the current producers?  or was it given to them for free, by previous owners?

in my opinion, the first implies ownership.  do whatever you want with the game.  turn it off, turn it back on again, change it to a wet tropical world rather than a desert.

The second implies stewardship.  Keep this thing that has existed for a few decades going with minimal interference or change.

love our staff.  have played Arm for years.  have had lots of good fun here.  again, just curious.

This seems like a lot of work. My questions for staff would be:

1. Why is it worth the effort to you as individuals? What will keep you motivated 6 weeks into a building a game that players may not return to (I mean, they probably will, but it this is a big undertaking for no pay)?

2. What is your expected outcome? Specifics, in terms of world size, active player count, culture, etc.

3. Is this really the ONLY way to achieve the result you're looking for?

I guess I understand the feelings involved, but I don't see how this will change anything.

From a personal experience standpoint, I'll say that I continue to play Armageddon because I am so familiar with it. I don't have time to relearn all the geography, insta-kill rooms, creature behaviour etc etc etc. I don't have the time to relearn this shit every 6 to 12 months. I often only have 20 or 30 minutes to play at a time. If there is too much I'll have to relearn with every "season", I may not be able to invest what it takes to do it.

Let's imagine a big box game that doesn't allow its playerbase to even play during 'transitionary periods' between one big storyline to the next. You're hoping their investment of 30-70 dollars retains their interest- and sometimes it does. But most the time? It doesn't. And that's WITH their continued ability to play. They just move onto the next thing and spend their money on that instead, when there's a large enough lull.

But this isn't a big box game. It's a free game in a dwindling pond of other free games that AREN'T taking this approach. It seems as if there's full expectation of a Pavlovian response by the player-base, when in reality, it's just going to end up upsetting people that want to be able to play on their own time - not when the time is allotted to them for the next 'chapter'.

My question: What made this seem like such a good idea to reduce workload or what-have-you? Because it's not going to.

Another question: Why not have this seasonal experience overlap with the game at-large?

There's enough magic in the gameworld to be able to explain a handful of characters getting yoinked out of the present timeline to participate in whatever's going on, only to then get plopped back into reality afterwards (maybe remembering what happened, or maybe not). Keep the main game up and run the seasonal stuff on the side.

Then again, I haven't even played the game seriously for some time. There was a point in which things devolved past the point of a low-RP environment, where I still can find better roleplay quality within a hack/slash MOO.

Will we be allowed to have our own plotlines during these 'seasons'? Even if they run contrary-to or actively against the sanctioned season plotline?

Quote from: 650Booger on December 09, 2023, 12:53:55 PMwas Arm purchased by the current producers?  or was it given to them for free, by previous owners?

Consider it like the passing of a CEO position. No it was not purchased, but there is no requirement or mandate for 'no change. Yes, we consider ourselves the stewards of its preservation and that is what we are doing.

Quote from: roughneck on December 09, 2023, 01:20:08 PM1. Why is it worth the effort to you as individuals? What will keep you motivated 6 weeks into a building a game that players may not return to (I mean, they probably will, but it this is a big undertaking for no pay)?

2. What is your expected outcome? Specifics, in terms of world size, active player count, culture, etc.

3. Is this really the ONLY way to achieve the result you're looking for?

• Because we love this game and world and we want it to endure. If you think maintaining the motivation to work on it during a break is hard, can you imagine how hard it is to maintain the motivation to work on it whilst simultaneously exposed to a constant input of negativity and complaints? If we can do the latter, we can do the former.
• A more focussed area for STs to manage with a supported world size that can handle a lower playerbase and would absolutely rock with a higher player base. An improved culture that will help us to attract new players and increase the player base - ultimately.
• It's the only way that we can think of that also ticks off the other requirements that are important to us (e.g. not permanently destroying areas of the game etc).

Quote from: Cabooze on December 09, 2023, 02:21:29 PMMy question: What made this seem like such a good idea to reduce workload or what-have-you? Because it's not going to.

Another question: Why not have this seasonal experience overlap with the game at-large?

• You seem to have answered that question yourself so I guess you don't need me to.
• That sounds absolutely bonkers, we can't support the current game, how would we support the current game plus overlapping it with another instance? I think you have missed what we are trying to achieve here.

Quote from: Miradus on December 09, 2023, 09:05:23 PMWill we be allowed to have our own plotlines during these 'seasons'? Even if they run contrary-to or actively against the sanctioned season plotline?

Yes, you will just need to play within the bounds of the sandbox created for the Season.

Quote from: Usiku on December 10, 2023, 04:08:33 AM

Quote from: roughneck on December 09, 2023, 01:20:08 PM1. Why is it worth the effort to you as individuals? What will keep you motivated 6 weeks into a building a game that players may not return to (I mean, they probably will, but it this is a big undertaking for no pay)?

2. What is your expected outcome? Specifics, in terms of world size, active player count, culture, etc.

3. Is this really the ONLY way to achieve the result you're looking for?

• Because we love this game and world and we want it to endure. If you think maintaining the motivation to work on it during a break is hard, can you imagine how hard it is to maintain the motivation to work on it whilst simultaneously exposed to a constant input of negativity and complaints? If we can do the latter, we can do the former.

The game would have probably endured without the new changes.
Alot of the complaints that constantly filter in wouldn't have been made if there wasn't such a disregard towards player input and current living pc's.

It probably would've been easier to keep your motivation to work on the game if there were dozens more people playing it, the server was up, and people weren't complaining because their characters' stories are being ended en masse.

Pretty much every change that staff have proposed so far could've been implemented with a break, changeup, etc, all without actually doing a pwipe, various pr nightmare behaviors, disregarding the input of your lower staff, disregarding players, and failing to maintain a cohesive story amongst higher staff.

If you make your bed you can lay in it.

Will there be any adjustment to the placements of creatures? In some ways this happens in Arm (sort of not really), but there are so many city centers currently that the zoning must get difficult.
In most games creatures scale in difficulty the further away from the start you get or are somewhat locked by hard to reach places. That hasn't seemed the case with Arma. I know that may seem like a gamey request and might remove some "realism", but it would be nice for newer players to get an experience thats more in line with how most other games work. Older players of course can navigate this better.

Sorry if this suggestion/question makes older players mad *hide*

Quote from: papertiger on December 10, 2023, 01:18:13 PMWill there be any adjustment to the placements of creatures? In some ways this happens in Arm (sort of not really), but there are so many city centers currently that the zoning must get difficult.
In most games creatures scale in difficulty the further away from the start you get or are somewhat locked by hard to reach places. That hasn't seemed the case with Arma. I know that may seem like a gamey request and might remove some "realism", but it would be nice for newer players to get an experience thats more in line with how most other games work. Older players of course can navigate this better.

Sorry if this suggestion/question makes older players mad *hide*

Personally I think the animal -spawns- around allanak are fine. But they do roam quite a bit, sometimes unpredictably.

Now, staff would need to introduce a bunch of herbs around Allanak, its shops, or Underneath it so ppl could actually empower bloodburn in the southlands.

Quote from: betweenford on December 10, 2023, 01:27:33 PMPersonally I think the animal -spawns- around allanak are fine. But they do roam quite a bit, sometimes unpredictably.

Now, staff would need to introduce a bunch of herbs around Allanak, its shops, or Underneath it so ppl could actually empower bloodburn in the southlands.

I suppose I was thinking more Red Storm and Tuluk for this for future seasons. Or if we get seasons in places like the tribes or something?

We have been slowly changing animals spawns over from hard-saved spawns to being spawned in by simdesert lite which adds some randomness (within defined parameters) to spawns along with being able to control things like certain animals only loading into certain areas at certain times of the year and so on. It's possible that as we focus on different areas some of the critters may get this treatment. No promises though!

Quote from: Miradus on December 09, 2023, 09:05:23 PMWill we be allowed to have our own plotlines during these 'seasons'? Even if they run contrary-to or actively against the sanctioned season plotline?

Yes.  We intend to direct staff to spend some portion of their time focused on furthering player-started plots/events/goals.

Quote from: Fredd on December 09, 2023, 11:17:54 AMWell, an opt in newsletter is at least SOMETHING. I can't say it's the best answer. But I can accept that.

What would you say is the best answer (to keeping the playerbase informed during the closure)?  We're open to other ideas for that.

Can't you just post updates in Staff Announcements? Seems like the straight-forward solution.

Quote from: Triskelion on December 10, 2023, 04:01:42 PMCan't you just post updates in Staff Announcements? Seems like the straight-forward solution.

Can do both!

Quote from: Halaster on December 10, 2023, 03:52:53 PM

Quote from: Fredd on December 09, 2023, 11:17:54 AMWell, an opt in newsletter is at least SOMETHING. I can't say it's the best answer. But I can accept that.

What would you say is the best answer (to keeping the playerbase informed during the closure)?  We're open to other ideas for that.

Honestly? I don't know. But you guys have at least given me the framework of something. And I feel a bit better knowing that.


Actually on second thought. A rough estimate of when to expect season 1 to be, so we can pay attention to said outlets at that time. And maybe work on our end to spread the message and bring in more players.

I think that with the framework you provided would be about the best you can get out of the current situation.

We're working on putting together estimates for timelines at the moment. We're working through a lot of requests from folks about their current plots and plans and that will help us to inform how long we should stay open initially, which is a big part of the overall timeline.

Quote from: Halaster on December 10, 2023, 03:52:53 PM

Quote from: Fredd on December 09, 2023, 11:17:54 AMWell, an opt in newsletter is at least SOMETHING. I can't say it's the best answer. But I can accept that.

What would you say is the best answer (to keeping the playerbase informed during the closure)?  We're open to other ideas for that.

1.Have regular (every couple weeks at first) live chats on discord or somewhere, so that we can ask questions and keep informed.  Use email to invite us.
2.Solicit player contributions for specific plots or sub plots, items, room descriptions, etc. Involve us in some meaningful way in the creation of the new game.
3.Call out to those of us who are vetran or experienced players, to already come up with chars that will fit into plots.  Like advance roll calls. This will keep us excited and tuned in.
4.Involve us in outreach to players who may have left and/or in publicity for the new game.

I am kind of late to the party.

To me a large part of these changes are about Staffing.  Compared to when I came on board Staff in 2015, there are differences in both the availability of players to Staff that we feel comfortable with and the challenges that Staffing comes with.  This second part has been slowly changing for a few years, but sped up dramatically after the events of last winter.  There has been a dramatic increase in work not really related to the core Storytelling.  Looking forward, Staff will not be able to support the game as it currently exists with these trends in play.  This also plays into why this was a leadership decision.  Like many staffing decisions in many organizations it is up to the leadership to make the tough decisions around staffing.

Going to a Seasons model lets Staff not have to do everything at once.  When a Season is active, I expect we will devote our time to supporting players, plots, and very limited building.  When it is not active, we will shift to building, ideating about plots and will get a mental break from supporting players (and, frankly, any drama associated with them).  Seasons also enables some natural breaks that better supports a variable Staffing model. I personally feel this model will likely be better for Staff mental health, attitudes toward players and ultimately the Staff-Player relationship.

It is not the only option that was considered.  We considered an invite-only model, but ultimately felt while there might be a golden period of consistently good RP, eventually it would kill the game due to player replenishment problems.

What player-staff relationship? I just did a 5 day calculation using mssp data for before and after the announcement, and on avg:
Preceding the change, an avg of 79 people were actively logged into the mud over five days.
After the change, 42.5 people were actively logged into the mud over a period of five days.

Considering that the game gets ~140 unique logins a week, and that on avg each player normally contributes to .56 players logged in throughout the day; you've lost about 64 players with this announcement alone.

I guess the game is easier to staff over when you lose 64 players? Less mental health issues when you lose 64 players? Less plots to support when you lose 64 players?

Edit: If you doubt the numbers, just calculate it yourself: https://imgur.com/a/0s5Lw65 (https://imgur.com/a/0s5Lw65)
Courtesy of MSSP data provided by: https://iberia.jdai.pt/mudstats/mud/armageddon_mud (https://iberia.jdai.pt/mudstats/mud/armageddon_mud)
You know, just a fun fact.

EDIT:EDIT: I had posts below this one responding to Brokkr's posts, but they were moderated.

Quote from: Brokkr on December 10, 2023, 06:00:21 PMIt is not the only option that was considered.  We considered an invite-only model, but ultimately felt while there might be a golden period of consistently good RP, eventually it would kill the game due to player replenishment problems.

Out of curiosity, what would this invite-only model have entailed?

Quote from: Usiku on December 10, 2023, 05:45:34 PMWe're working on putting together estimates for timelines at the moment. We're working through a lot of requests from folks about their current plots and plans and that will help us to inform how long we should stay open initially, which is a big part of the overall timeline.

Alrighty then. Appreciated.

I hope you can understand why the playerbase would react as we have, given the information we started with.

Quote from: Brokkr on December 10, 2023, 06:00:21 PMI am kind of late to the party.

To me a large part of these changes are about Staffing.  Compared to when I came on board Staff in 2015, there are differences in both the availability of players to Staff that we feel comfortable with and the challenges that Staffing comes with.  This second part has been slowly changing for a few years, but sped up dramatically after the events of last winter.  There has been a dramatic increase in work not really related to the core Storytelling.  Looking forward, Staff will not be able to support the game as it currently exists with these trends in play.  This also plays into why this was a leadership decision.  Like many staffing decisions in many organizations it is up to the leadership to make the tough decisions around staffing.

Going to a Seasons model lets Staff not have to do everything at once.  When a Season is active, I expect we will devote our time to supporting players, plots, and very limited building.  When it is not active, we will shift to building, ideating about plots and will get a mental break from supporting players (and, frankly, any drama associated with them).  Seasons also enables some natural breaks that better supports a variable Staffing model. I personally feel this model will likely be better for Staff mental health, attitudes toward players and ultimately the Staff-Player relationship.

It is not the only option that was considered.  We considered an invite-only model, but ultimately felt while there might be a golden period of consistently good RP, eventually it would kill the game due to player replenishment problems.

No offense, but wow. Woooow. Not a great read.

Actual question, as a former player thoroughly dissuaded of my brief interest in returning to the game: Is there a contingency plan?

If this fails to come together, either never opening or never moving out of its first season, will ArmageddonMUD simply cease to be? Will it be moved to an effective maintenance mode, kept up by whomever is willing to keep hosting? Something else?

Has there been consideration of releasing the code and lore for players to enjoy privately, or begin their own offshoots?

I was going to write my feelings but decided against it because mansa will just moderate it because it isn't pro his opinion.

Quote from: Krath on December 10, 2023, 09:46:33 PMI was going to write my feelings but decided against it because mansa will just moderate it because it isn't pro his opinion.

Calling staff members "disgusting" goes against the rules of the GDB.

That is not acceptable in this community.

Quote from: CirclelessBard on December 10, 2023, 06:35:48 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on December 10, 2023, 06:00:21 PMIt is not the only option that was considered.  We considered an invite-only model, but ultimately felt while there might be a golden period of consistently good RP, eventually it would kill the game due to player replenishment problems.

Out of curiosity, what would this invite-only model have entailed?

Don't know.  Obviously it wasn't a good idea. That is how decisions get made, you bandy around a few ideas (this is just one I remember, the ideate started while ago), discuss, reformulate, refine, discard, etc.  Every alternate idea I could recount from the process would be something we discarded.

As for Staffing, it is kind of important if you want to maintain a certain bar for RP and facilitating that. It may not be important if you just want an unmonitored sandbox MUD where folks can do whatever, but none of us at this point seem interested in that.

Quote from: mansa on December 10, 2023, 10:04:35 PM

Quote from: Krath on December 10, 2023, 09:46:33 PMI was going to write my feelings but decided against it because mansa will just moderate it because it isn't pro his opinion.

Calling staff members "disgusting" goes against the rules of the GDB.

That is not acceptable in this community.

This is where we will agree to disagree. There was nothing calling them out of name or anything derogatory.

That being said, I have no problem admitting when I may have mad a mistake, and if you, mandate, did not edit the post in question, I apologize.

I completely understand Staff's perspective in wanting to change something, and wanting to shut the game down for a while in hopes that things improve. I would be absolutely burned out volunteering for a game that requires this much investment and brings this much drama. For this reason, and others, Staff will always have my support and empathy.

However, I don't think the solution to Armageddon's problems is in changing the gameworld though. I think the one thing that the every single person agrees on is that the gameworld is fucking cool. It's everything else about the game that folks seem to fight over and complain about. Never once have I seen a nuclear GDB thread over the Zalanthas historical timeline, or Red Desert geography.

So, while I support Staff in whatever they want to do (becuase Staff does the hard work), I don't think this is how you fix player culture or address staff burnout. In the new gam, the playerbase will be mostly the same, the staffers will be mostly the same, and the relationships will likely remain mostly the same.

It feels like a decision driven by burnout and frustration, rather than a decision inspired by creativity and vision. I know Staff will use their tremendous amounts of creativity and vision to bring us a great new iteration of Zalanthan experience, but I'm not seeing how it gets to the root of the problem that brought us here.

I guess I don't have a better solution though. How do you get internet strangers with fantasy name computer aliases living out a text-based desert-world alternate reality to act like well adjusted human beings? Good luck and Godspeed. I will make a PC in this Brave New World of yours, once created.

A question about seasons.  Just, how spectacular of a failure would be necessary to force staff's hand into at least trying to work with the Community instead of micro-manage every little detail to fall in-line with exactly what the Big B wants?  How, significant of a flop would all of this need to be to really drive home that the problem isn't the players? 

I might not have admitted openly to saying there was even the DISCUSSION of moving to Invite-Only. To even start down that train of thought, even though it was dismissed, is to admit that you dislike the playerbase so vehemently that you were willing to only invite people you like and stopped because you knew you would eventually run out of people you like.

It feels very much "We were going to cheat on you with another person, but we decided against it. Give me points for NOT doing it!"

As to the question:
One big push from staff in recent years has been about needing other people/skillsets to accomplish your goals. There is always a crafter that needs a skinner, or a soldier who needs a target, etc.

If Armageddon: Seasons has more defined overarching goals to accomplish, are there plans in place for when certain skillsets aren't as available as needed?

I'm curious about the implications of having (hopefully) dozens of new characters starting in the same region on the same day.

For example, in the initial week you might have multiple characters going through the newbie shops at the same time, more characters than usual looking for a job, few characters with developed skills, etc.

Do you think changes to the process of entering the game might be necessary or desirable?

Quote from: flurry on December 11, 2023, 10:50:17 AMI'm curious about the implications of having (hopefully) dozens of new characters starting in the same region on the same day.

For example, in the initial week you might have multiple characters going through the newbie shops at the same time, more characters than usual looking for a job, few characters with developed skills, etc.

Do you think changes to the process of entering the game might be necessary or desirable?

Excellent callout and suggestion.  Over the years we've written various scripts to help with setup in clans, the most recent iteration of that is the Advanced Start for the Byn/AoD/Legions.  I could see us expanding more on that to make the custom setups go more smoothly.

I could also see us maybe getting some of the 'leaders' in the game a day or two early so they can get settled and ready for other folks.

We haven't gotten that far into the weeds of that kind of detail, but we're open to your ideas on the subject if you have any.

While it's generally the Arm community's way to latch onto things to fight, yell, and point fingers over, I think often what gets left at the wayside when changes are made in almost anything (not just Arm that is!) is the actual purpose behind these ideas, and new paths forward. Ask yourself really, what drove those changes?

In my mind, this change is not for players.  It's not a fingerpointing at players or intended as a punishment either. It's the staff saying, we can't maintain this how it is. Tons of staff even recently have been lost and a lot of it's into the ever-hungry maw of the constant in-Armageddon haterade being guzzled and flung over any little thing, all the time. They don't like having to deal with complaints. They don't like having to come on the forums and read through pages of their passion being torn apart because it doesn't fit everyone's individual vision of a perfect utopian Armageddon, which absolutely no one around here would agree with and everyone would (and does) fight over all the time.

A lot of that flinging and hate is at the staff, which they're expected to be perfect saints over and not respond to even when it's from the same people week after week, or even year after year, while those same haters enjoy the entertainment and hospitality of a game the administration's pouring themselves into and stressing over all the time hoping to get perfect while some of you, honestly, are pretty abusive towards them and rarely ever move the needle from "I HATE EVERYTHING AND YOU" to just a silence with an air of bitterness hanging over it.

I see the merits of an invite-only model. But what some of you should be looking at and asking yourselves - empathetically instead of trying to find a reason to fingerpoint and fight - is why I, or the staff, would.

To be clear, I don't think invite-only is the way. But I think some de-invitations in some cases, honestly, would not be a terrible thing.

Quote from: Riev on December 11, 2023, 09:54:22 AMI might not have admitted openly to saying there was even the DISCUSSION of moving to Invite-Only. To even start down that train of thought, even though it was dismissed, is to admit that you dislike the playerbase so vehemently that you were willing to only invite people you like and stopped because you knew you would eventually run out of people you like.

Not sure how you took that in the context of my post.  My recollection is the idea pre-dates the Seasons idea by enough I am not even sure it is was the same Producer team when it was come up with.  To me the interesting part of the idea is how it might impact Staffing (which was the context of my post) and being able to re-orient time and mindshare towards facilitating great roleplaying.  The downside and reason it was thought about for a New York minute and then dismissed was the impact to the playerbase. Crazy ideas are a part of brainstorming.

Quote from: Brokkr on December 11, 2023, 12:18:31 PMNot sure how you took that in the context of my post.  My recollection is the idea pre-dates the Seasons idea by enough I am not even sure it is was the same Producer team when it was come up with.  To me the interesting part of the idea is how it might impact Staffing (which was the context of my post) and being able to re-orient time and mindshare towards facilitating great roleplaying.  The downside and reason it was thought about for a New York minute and then dismissed was the impact to the playerbase. Crazy ideas are a part of brainstorming.

Because you offhandedly mentioned turning a 30 year old game, to which many of us have years if not decades of emotional investment, into a gated community. At the end of a post written with language that, IMHO, comes off as impersonal and corporate. This is the bit that got me:

Quote from: Brokkr on December 10, 2023, 06:00:21 PM... When it is not active, we will shift to building, ideating about plots and will get a mental break from supporting players (and, frankly, any drama associated with them). ...

Emphasis mine. I'm sure you thought you were offering some objective insight into the decision. Telling a body of people that they're dramatic and you need a break from them? When they're confused and unhappy over a very sudden and drastic change? I hope you understand why that's mostly going to piss people off without unpacking it piece-by-piece.

But even more than that, the sentiment is coming from a position of protected authority. You're punching down. It is abusive, and the vague broadness of it honestly makes it read victim-blamey, which is just extremely gross given what went down this year. I would like to think none of that was deliberate on your part. But if you can't see why people are reacting negatively to what you said...

Yeah. It was not great, man, and I'm not even unsympathetic to the some of the rational behind downsizing.

Quote from: Brokkr on December 11, 2023, 12:18:31 PM

Quote from: Riev on December 11, 2023, 09:54:22 AMI might not have admitted openly to saying there was even the DISCUSSION of moving to Invite-Only. To even start down that train of thought, even though it was dismissed, is to admit that you dislike the playerbase so vehemently that you were willing to only invite people you like and stopped because you knew you would eventually run out of people you like.

Not sure how you took that in the context of my post.  My recollection is the idea pre-dates the Seasons idea by enough I am not even sure it is was the same Producer team when it was come up with.  To me the interesting part of the idea is how it might impact Staffing (which was the context of my post) and being able to re-orient time and mindshare towards facilitating great roleplaying.  The downside and reason it was thought about for a New York minute and then dismissed was the impact to the playerbase. Crazy ideas are a part of brainstorming.

The context of your post was "we thought about moving to invite only but decided against it". I didn't take it out of context, it was your words. My concern is that I wouldn't have openly stated that there was even that discussion.

Honestly, why mention it at all? What purpose did it serve to say that, as one of two "Owners" of this game? To me, it screams "Be glad we DIDN'T do that. Give us points for not doing this thing we decided was bad".

Quote from: Riev on December 11, 2023, 02:53:18 PMHonestly, why mention it at all? What purpose did it serve to say that, as one of two "Owners" of this game? To me, it screams "Be glad we DIDN'T do that. Give us points for not doing this thing we decided was bad".

People have asked what other things were being considered, more than once, I believe.

I went back and read the announcement, and I still have questions:


When will the game be closed?    TBD, but beyond in January
What will happen to my character when the game is closed?   
Why should I continue playing my character now? 
-> Is there any incentive to keep playing?
-> Will there be any in-game events leading up to the closure of the game?
-> Is there anything I should do with my current character before the game is closed?
When is the new game available to play?    TBD, but at least a few months beyond the closing date.
What is the story of the new game?     "Allanak -> 50-100 years into the future. This future scenario promises a mix of continuity and change, where players might encounter new political dynamics, witness the emergence of new powers or observe the decline of existing ones."
What incentive is there for me to play in the new game?
-> What is the sales pitch for the new game, for the players?
What is different in the new game, compared to the old game?
-> What is possible for me to do in the new game?
-> What is not possible for me to do in the new game?
-> What restrictions are going to happen in the new game?

How can I help out the community and the MUD transition to the new game?
(aka I don't want to feel powerless and without agency in this addiction I enjoy.)

Would you guys consider moving up the wipe date considering how dead the world's been of late? If the ability for staffers to finish out their plots is impossible due to the low players.

Excited to move to the next step and see what's behind the curtain.

Quote from: Windstorm on December 11, 2023, 11:45:54 AMn my mind, this change is not for players.  It's not a fingerpointing at players or intended as a punishment either. It's the staff saying, we can't maintain this how it is. Tons of staff even recently have been lost and a lot of it's into the ever-hungry maw of the constant in-Armageddon haterade being guzzled and flung over any little thing, all the time. They don't like having to deal with complaints. They don't like having to come on the forums and read through pages of their passion being torn apart because it doesn't fit everyone's individual vision of a perfect utopian Armageddon, which absolutely no one around here would agree with and everyone would (and does) fight over all the time.

I'd agree with the above but I think the changes can also work for the players. Interaction is a lot less than it could be as we're split across a pretty big game world and Houses/Clans are under-populated for the most part which shallows out the RP. Consolidation would definitely help here - it's been necessary for quite a while really. Players have also long complained about lack of agency, game inertia, staff response times, etc., etc. Adopting a sized-down model where Staff focus purely on being Staff should be able to help with all these things. It's a pity that we have to come to this as I'm sure everyone would love to keep the big-world model but times have changed and it's time to adapt or die.

The biggest potential roadblock to it succeeding is going to be the players. The announcement and whole lead-in to the changes absolutely could have been handled better but the player reaction has been a bit over-dramatic in my opinion. Sure we all like our little characters and I know I'll be disappointed to lose mine after working for 5 months to get him into the position I wanted for him but it's just a game at the end of the day. I think people just need to step back and think about whether they like playing Arm or not. If not, as it seems to be with some people who get infuriated over everything, then just leave it all behind - everyone's life would be a little better off. If yes then suck it up as changes are needed, play out what we have left here to give it a decent send-off and give Seasons a shot with an open mind - it definitely can work.

Remember, debate the ideas not the person.  It's OK to hate what we're doing and voice that.  It's OK to like what we're doing and voice that.  It's not OK to insult each other, tell people their feelings are somehow not legitimate or inferior.

That said, this is technically a Q&A thread, so let's keep it to questions please.  There's other threads to voice your pleasure/displeasure.

In what meaningful way, is Armageddon Seasons believed to improve the staff/player relationship?  What information was used to come to this conclusion.  In what way, was the person making this decision, educated and qualified on making it? 


[Moderator Edit: This post was heavily edited but ultimately kept available with the question posed by poster.]

There's a lot of talk of mention of some players being unhappy in general with how the game was going.
Meanwhile the gameworld was pressing on with a rich plethora of plots, and an ever growing history built out of character actions.

What about the players who are happy?  What about the players like me who very rarely if ever visit the forums,  are not a part of discord, and only play the game for the RP and the IC?
Who are happy, but afraid to wade into the wasteland of conflict that exists OOCLY.

If it wasn't for the announcement posted ingame, I wouldn't even have known this was happening since I do not check the forum often enough to have been aware.

It feels like there's way, way too much ooc, and a very vocal minority is starting to determine and influence the course that admins take because they complain loudly, or aggressively enough.

What can be done to give all players a voice without them having to take part in the forum or on discord? Can there be a poll made on the log in screen with important question's or surveys once one is logged in to collect individual players opinions or thoughts on something the staff would like to know in the future?

This change seemed like an emotional response, and after Usiku's post it really feels that way. I can empathize with it, but I don't see how it will change anything.

From a Staff perspective, how will Seasons result in people behaving differently?

The invite-only, or a player-application makes more sense if the behaviour is really this bad. I actually love the idea. You will never successfully manage the behaviour of internet strangers.

This thread has been reported multiple times, and I'll need time to moderate it to return it to the question/answer intent.

I've removed a lot of sniping, a lot of insults, and a lot of posts that were not in a question/answer format of this thread.  There are other threads that can be used to speak about your feelings of this change, or what you want to see happen in the new future.

Hmmm.

Well, a lot of us play DnD or other TRPG systems, and those happen in sessions that cover the course of a campaign. In a way, this change feels a lot like that. It doesn't feel bad, just ... strange.

Of course, I currently don't play, so it's fair to presume I'm not thinking about this in the shoes of a current player. But I'll say that the person who told me about this change brought me here to investigate the concept behind the change. And ... man, I kinda like it at face value.

I don't feel like its about changing the world, persay. It's about focusing play in a particular section of the world, and bringing stories to life that are focused upon those regions. It's like a Campaign that's focused on Baldur's Gate, or Neverwinter, in Faerun. I kind of like the idea.

In fact, at the moment, I guess I'm sort of planning to be there for it, too.

Quote from: Brokkr on December 10, 2023, 10:19:02 PM

Quote from: CirclelessBard on December 10, 2023, 06:35:48 PM

Quote from: Brokkr on December 10, 2023, 06:00:21 PMIt is not the only option that was considered.  We considered an invite-only model, but ultimately felt while there might be a golden period of consistently good RP, eventually it would kill the game due to player replenishment problems.

Out of curiosity, what would this invite-only model have entailed?

Don't know.  Obviously it wasn't a good idea. That is how decisions get made, you bandy around a few ideas (this is just one I remember, the ideate started while ago), discuss, reformulate, refine, discard, etc.  Every alternate idea I could recount from the process would be something we discarded.

As for Staffing, it is kind of important if you want to maintain a certain bar for RP and facilitating that. It may not be important if you just want an unmonitored sandbox MUD where folks can do whatever, but none of us at this point seem interested in that.

Based on this alone, the question is, "Whose game is it?" Is the game up for the amusement and enjoyment of the staff or the players? Making a drastic decision like this seems to favor the former such as having plots authorized by staff and not taking into account what the players want.

After seeing that most of the players jumped ship should have been an obvious clue that the changes are not welcomed.  But it is still full steam ahead, DESPITE the wishes of the players. IMO, staff interference and unwanted interactions are why we got here in the first place, let's use that as a learning experience not as a call to double down.

Quote from: frankjacoby on December 15, 2023, 08:33:01 PMBased on this alone, the question is, "Whose game is it?" ...

Just like anything in this world.  It's owned by the people that pay the bills, the ones who do the work.

So in essence, the person who's paying Amazon for their cloud storage, who's paying for the DNS, the webhosting and all that miscellaneous shit that comes with running this game.

That's who "owns" it.

I sorta see where you're going with the sentiment of, and pardon my oversimplification here, "If the players aren't happy, you should try and make them happy!" And unfortunately as in work and life in general, that's not a good business model to keep things running, someone needs to make the decisions and be the final say, having a debate would just be pages and pages of I feel this, I feel that which would see the game remaining as it did for the past two decades, running, broken and slowly dying.

While I have my own criticisms about staff, I do applaud that they finally put their big boy/girl pants on and made a fucking call.

Now back to questions:

In light of this period of flux and acceptance people need to get over before they will inevitably come back to Arm, would it be unreasonable to ask for things like apartment rentals to be paused?

I know this will eventually pass and folks will come around, but right now I'm just draining massive amounts of sids to keep apartments afloat on a character I can't really play due to the fact there is no other players actively playing.

While I might be unaware of reality on how the gameplay currently is, I have a question.

If the gameplay grows to a standstill due to players not willing to continue until the season one begins. Would you entertain just beginning the season early?


I can understand not wanting to get involved into the in depth rebuilding of the game during holidays, if this is an issue though

hi all!  not playing arm currently, but I will be returning for Seasons.  Just wanted to say that I'm hoping for the best!  The game will only die if we want it to.  I personally don't want it to.  I know there are strong feelings on both sides, but I think its best to support staff right now and help them to make this work.

Quote from: Dar on December 15, 2023, 10:59:10 PMWhile I might be unaware of reality on how the gameplay currently is, I have a question.

If the gameplay grows to a standstill due to players not willing to continue until the season one begins. Would you entertain just beginning the season early?


I can understand not wanting to get involved into the in depth rebuilding of the game during holidays, if this is an issue though

While there's no current plan to end it early, we could if the situation calls for it.  If everyone's stories are wrapped up early and we have no one playing, why not.  But as of now we still intend to go to February 10.

After having plenty of time to process, and coming to terms with the loss of my recent character that I loved due to forced retirement (2nd time I've had a beloved character force stored when Tuluk closed the first time), I feel like I have calmed down, and I am eager to get back to playing Armageddon once seasons opens. I will say the thought of never playing Armageddon did effect me quite a bit believe it or not. Not just never playing Armageddon, but also the fact I would probably never play another RPI again. I haven't been able to focus on any games, and just sit at the computer lost quite often. Lately, after helping out with the recent submission for Bazaar NPC's, and working on several PC concepts I might like to try, I am feeling very renewed, and eager to help out.

If there is any work staff needs help with, documentation wise, or building requests? I'm available. DM, or put up the submissions and I'll get to it.

You're not alone Evilone, I too have felt the sadness of not having our old friend Ginka to play with.. I'm sure there are many others feeling the same way, eager to offer our new sacrifices for it's pleasure and to gain its favor.

The email updates have kept my spirits up so Thank You to all the staff for keeping us in the know and part of this game, even when we cannot be.  The news you've shared so far sounds epic and I for one can't wait to witness the changes first hand when the curtain comes up and the Mantis Head is ready for us once more.

My question is simply to ask if there's any rough idea or fixed date yet for the curtain raising?

Quote from: perfecto on April 05, 2024, 04:48:20 AMMy question is simply to ask if there's any rough idea or fixed date yet for the curtain raising?

When we closed we said 2 - 3 months, which would put us somewhere between April 10 and May 10.  It's a bit difficult to pin down an exact date right now but I think we're making great progress, I'd say we're more than halfway there.  Our current plan is to look where we are in the middle of April and then make a determination for when we think we'll be ready.  It's certainly going to be towards the late end of the range.  Possibly a little longer, but we're just not ready to pin down a date, yet.

We are starting to talk amongst ourselves about schedules, such as "I'm going on vacation these dates, and would love to be there when we open".  We want as many staff around as possible when we do open, so that's going to play a part.  We hope to have a more definitive answer within the next week or two.

It was my understanding that there was plans to give a narrative regarding some of the prominent  characters that were around during the last days.

Is this still the plan?

And, if so, in what format (one long story, a short story about X PCs and what happened to them, etc)?

Quote from: The Lonely Hunter on April 19, 2024, 08:00:44 PMIt was my understanding that there was plans to give a narrative regarding some of the prominent  characters that were around during the last days.

Is this still the plan?

And, if so, in what format (one long story, a short story about X PCs and what happened to them, etc)?

Totally depends on the character and what happened.  Some of them (i.e. the one mentioned in today's newsletter about elemental temples in Allanak) will be part of the history docs, others will have a different sort of legacy.