Armageddon General Discussion Board

This is exciting.

Byn Sergeants will win every time. They involve everyone! (Yes, I understand its actually other clans that actually involve the Byn, but the idea of Byn "always running the plots" makes me giggle.)

My first thought was... 'don't players already do this without a raffle'?  ???

Quote from: Akaramu on January 23, 2017, 09:52:28 AM
My first thought was... 'don't players already do this without a raffle'?  ???

I think its probably to both generate ideas staff side, and to have a reason to have a few smaller rail-road plots. Because you can't be angry if YOU submitted the plot and it only had one of two outcomes.

Quote from: Riev on January 23, 2017, 10:18:53 AM
I think its probably to both generate ideas staff side, and to have a reason to have a few smaller rail-road plots. Because you can't be angry if YOU submitted the plot and it only had one of two outcomes.

OOOOH I totally misunderstood! Thanks for clearing this up. I thought the raffle was for actual plots that are being run ingame. Now I feel dumb.  :-[

Me too. Is this for actual plots or plot ideas?

It may be for other reasons, its just that...

I mean. Yes. SOME players already do this. But I consider myself an average player, and I CERTAINLY don't think of some personal quirk, goal, or affectation for my characters that would involve up to 5 other PCs and have on-going purpose. I just don't, and if I do, I just hire the Byn to do the most of it.

I think this is to have more ideas for plots going, have a carrot for players that do this, more than a system of karma.

I also think its for ACTUAL plots. As in, you have an idea for a plot you're going to chase, in game, and you're just informing staff of how you're going to involve other players in it. Acquire an aurochs, find a rare emerald, etc etc. Things Staff can hook into, or not, but its an incentive. I think/

I'm confused (genuinely). Shouldn't the reward of playing the game and plotting be the plots and the game being enhanced, not a perceived reward for a future PC?

I only see this encouraging questionable RP and over extension in order to get more raffle tickets. It creates a Meta seemed in my mind that I should be plotting with the intention of reward after death. Almost like Grace?

Are we that starved for plots? It certainly doesn't appear that way from my angle but that's a limited point of view.

I DO wonder if this is just a push for the new-er players who don't know to do this, or don't see any benefit it... or if its because staff are lacking in plot ideas that don't massively affect the landscape.

Its not a criticism, its just wondering what is behind this new push for player plotlines, after the 1st one kind of fizzled and staff were allowed to run their own, and now that seems to have fizzled?

Are we starved for plots? Or are all the plots being run by the same few people?

Way ahead of ya.  8)

I'm really confused by this and I kind of already do run plots and some of them are deliberate and some are off the cuff... so... is the difference that we should be sending them in through reports?

I guess I'll just keep doing what I've been doing? ???

I really want to like this but I do share Reiloth's trepidation here. I will try and reserve judgement.

I tend to do a lot of smallish plots, too, and involving multiple people, but just glancing at (or even watching for long periods) my pc at a good bit of the times, you wouldn't necessarily know it, and I don't tend to involve them in reports, because a lot of it is small and fluid stuff, like <acquire X for Y> or <get X from Y> or <convince X of thing>. Though, those tend to be (in the fashion of a dwarven focus) smaller, stepping stone plots toward larger and longer running ones. Almost none of them involve RPTs though.

Quote from: Reiloth on January 23, 2017, 11:34:18 AM
I'm confused (genuinely). Shouldn't the reward of playing the game and plotting be the plots and the game being enhanced, not a perceived reward for a future PC?

I only see this encouraging questionable RP and over extension in order to get more raffle tickets. It creates a Meta seemed in my mind that I should be plotting with the intention of reward after death. Almost like Grace?

Are we that starved for plots? It certainly doesn't appear that way from my angle but that's a limited point of view.

I like the idea, and if I can try to make a guess at the 'future reward' idea: I think this might encourage more risk with your current PC, knowing that in the afterlife you will receive some benefit for putting yourself in (IC appropriate) conflict situations that might result in the death of your PC.

That said, the balance we'd want to strike is to make sure that we aren't disregarding the documentation in pursuit of such reward.  Soh, for instance, shouldn't stop being Soh in order to band together with Outsiders on some plot.  However, the Soh (not to pick on Soh, it's just an obvious example of a group which are insular by documentation) also should be encouraged to look for more ways to interact with / include Outsiders in their plots.

Quote from: Reiloth on January 23, 2017, 11:34:18 AM
I'm confused (genuinely). Shouldn't the reward of playing the game and plotting be the plots and the game being enhanced, not a perceived reward for a future PC?

I only see this encouraging questionable RP and over extension in order to get more raffle tickets. It creates a Meta seemed in my mind that I should be plotting with the intention of reward after death. Almost like Grace?

Are we that starved for plots? It certainly doesn't appear that way from my angle but that's a limited point of view.

My thoughts exactly.

An alternative way of having more player run plots would be to allow for more stuff to happen if it doesn't disrupt the game balance. I had (somewhat recently) a plot idea that would eventually (if it was allowed to develop) involve the Byn, several trips to locations outside Allanak, and involve a bunch of PCs / clans. Staff said 'no' and that was the end of it. Maybe some transparence on what is and what isn't possible would help?

We just got these awesome new guidelines for mastercraft submissions. Would be great if we could get something similar for plots.

What's confusing?

You come up with an idea for a plot, send the details to Staff and tell them what you're hoping to achieve with it and if you'd like for Staff to have a participation in it (with NPC or atmospheric animations, etc...)

If you win the raffle you get a small non-game changing reward to be used with a future characters.

To break it down more clearly:
1) Decide upon a plot pertinent to your character's story.
2) Write a simple request to us informing us of said plot in the aforementioned format. If you're a leader, include it in your weekly report. If you're not a leader/unsponsored, send it in as a character report.
3) Plot.
4) Be entered with 1 to 3 entries, dependent upon the particulars listed above.
5) Win! (Possibly.)

What are you guys complaining about now??  :P

Quote from: Akaramu on January 23, 2017, 12:29:35 PM

Quote from: Reiloth on January 23, 2017, 11:34:18 AM
I'm confused (genuinely). Shouldn't the reward of playing the game and plotting be the plots and the game being enhanced, not a perceived reward for a future PC?

I only see this encouraging questionable RP and over extension in order to get more raffle tickets. It creates a Meta seemed in my mind that I should be plotting with the intention of reward after death. Almost like Grace?

Are we that starved for plots? It certainly doesn't appear that way from my angle but that's a limited point of view.

My thoughts exactly.

An alternative way of having more player run plots would be to allow for more stuff to happen if it doesn't disrupt the game balance. I had (somewhat recently) a plot idea that would eventually (if it was allowed to develop) involve the Byn, several trips to locations outside Allanak, and involve a bunch of PCs / clans. Staff said 'no' and that was the end of it. Maybe some transparence on what is and what isn't possible would help?

This, in a nutshell, is why I don't really put in reports with plots in them, and tend to go for plots that don't require anything of staff, and.. really NEVER have, even before 2013 when I burned all their good will toward me to crap. There are a LOT of people with a LOT of plot ideas, and it seemed like most of them got shut down before they ever had the chance to go anywhere, so the natural response is to stop pursuing things that get shot down from every angle, and when you do pursue plots, for it to be really small ones that don't involve any sort of (staff required) help or changes in the game world.

I'm going to try for something in the face of the post, but... I feel like even if I won the die roll would be fudged to ensure it went to someone who was more liked. Whoever gets it though, it seems like it'll be neat, so... go for it. I have a snowball's chance in hell, and I'm going to go for it.

The biggest reward someone can get is a skill bump if they are lucky. Some of you already have enough karma to get 3-4 skill bumps just by asking for them. I don't really see anything disastrous happening with that idea and I think it's an excellent way to drive more players to attempt plots of their own.

Quote from: Malken on January 23, 2017, 12:35:34 PM
What's confusing?

You come up with an idea for a plot, send the details to Staff and tell them what you're hoping to achieve with it and if you'd like for Staff to have a participation in it (with NPC or atmospheric animations, etc...)

If you win the raffle you get a small non-game changing reward to be used with a future characters.

To break it down more clearly:
1) Decide upon a plot pertinent to your character's story.
2) Write a simple request to us informing us of said plot in the aforementioned format. If you're a leader, include it in your weekly report. If you're not a leader/unsponsored, send it in as a character report.
3) Plot.
4) Be entered with 1 to 3 entries, dependent upon the particulars listed above.
5) Win! (Possibly.)

What are you guys complaining about now??  :P

I'm not complaining, I'm confused. And well, yeah, it does seem like it's adding a bit more paperwork to something I already do ... like, a lot... so.... I guess I'm being old and crabby.

I wonder if I should resubmit a more elaborate and awesome 2.0 version of the plot idea that was declined. I guess maybe I was too vague on how it would involve other people and trigger fun stuff on the sidelines.

I'm generally excited about this.

I do have a couple concerns, though.

(1) Should I expect staff to only intervene/participate in plots if they're chosen in a raffle?  I already pursue a lot plots which, at some point, might require or beg staff participation (and almost every one of these things involves players other than myself).  Will these only be pursued if I win the raffle?  Will things go as usual plus the raffle?  I never expect staff to get interested in my plots and help me pursue them, but I always suspect they would act if they needed to, or if they thought it was a really great thing for the game.

(2) I'm worried about people putting off IC goals, waiting until they "win" the raffle, so that they're goals can be pursued to the "fullest."  I wouldn't do this, but I worry about it.  I also worry about unconsciously doing it, I guess.

I don't expect many problems -- I think this is generally a cool idea, and I'm really excited about it -- but these two things are on my mind.

Quote from: Delirium on January 23, 2017, 12:40:05 PM
I'm not complaining, I'm confused. And well, yeah, it does seem like it's adding a bit more paperwork to something I already do ... like, a lot... so.... I guess I'm being old and crabby.

But confused about what? You don't have to send any of it to Staff if you don't want to participate in that raffle thingie... I think the biggest change is that Staff might help you achieve something concrete if you send them your plot idea and the more plots you generate for the game the higher your chance of winning a little prize for your effort.

It sounds like more paperwork for them, not so much the players, but if they are now asking to be directly involved in your plots I think that's a pretty good change.

Quote from: Feco on January 23, 2017, 12:44:42 PM
I'm generally excited about this.

I do have a couple concerns, though.

(1) Should I expect staff to only intervene/participate in plots if they're chosen in a raffle?  I already pursue a lot plots which, at some point, might require or beg staff participation (and almost every one of these things involves players other than myself).  Will these only be pursued if I win the raffle?  Will things go as usual plus the raffle?  I never expect staff to get interested in my plots and help me pursue them, but I always suspect they would act if they needed to, or if they thought it was a really great thing for the game.

(2) I'm worried about people putting off IC goals, waiting until they "win" the raffle, so that they goals can be pursued to the "fullest."

I don't expect many problems -- I think this is generally a cool idea, and I'm really excited about it -- but these two things are on my mind.

You should re-read the Staff post, nowhere does it say that you get into the raffle only if your plots are chosen by Staff and that your plots are acted upon only if you win the raffle.

Your #2 question doesn't make any sense... That's not how it's going to work out at all.

I think, first, I should say I don't think that if you do not win the raffle, your plots are denied. No one said this was the case, but it could be unclear, so I thought I'd put that out there.

Second, there are no staff run plots anymore, and I've heard other players say that they feel landscape/world changing plots are out of reach now. I think this is staff's way of encouraging you to reach again. The rewards are there as an incentive not just to plot, but to dare to send in plot ideas that might receive a no, imho, and as the added bonus of extra incentive for newbies who've never really attempted to do Big plots.

I for one, rarely attempt plots that include more than three people. Why? I have no idea. Fear? Lack of imagination? The raptor that lives in my nightstand tells me I'm worthless everyday? Probably, but this makes me want to brainstorm something up now, just for the hell of it.

And also because I want a red right hand on my next char.

Hrmmm. Not sure what to make of this. At best it's just a codification of what we should be doing anyway before doing something "plot worthy" (i.e. inform staff via request if we're planning something that might draw a reaction from the gameworld/accidentally kill off a clan, etc.) with a bit of a carrot to finally go with the Staff approval stick.

I'll know whether it's working when I see and hear of more things happening in game, or if it just leads to a bunch of mutants in a couple of months.

Why are you under the impression there are no Staff plots anymore?

It's gonna be weird seeing people with custom tattoos and scars, and thinking "oh, the Staff pet."

I'd prefer the incentive be Karma related, account note related, or otherwise invisible to the rest of the populace.

I'm not against this but I would and will ask to not participate.

After some consideration, I'll say that visible IG perks are my primary reservation.

I think that custom scars/tattoos, while cool, should be the realm of a special app/mastercraft and not "plot perks".

Quote from: Reiloth on January 23, 2017, 01:11:14 PM
Why are you under the impression there are no Staff plots anymore?

Just perception. Probably has more to do with where I'm currently playing than anything. Though really I'm not sure where I even implied this.

Quote from: Reiloth on January 23, 2017, 01:14:09 PM
It's gonna be weird seeing people with custom tattoos and scars, and thinking "oh, the Staff pet."

I'd prefer the incentive be Karma related, account note related, or otherwise invisible to the rest of the populace.

I'm not against this but I would and will ask to not participate.

Yeaaaah that's a concern. I'm not saying I would see someone with a "special tattoo" and think "Oh, staff pet, extra points on the PK point scale" but I'm sure there are those who would. I'll stick with current rewards. Safer and more enjoyable.

It's a raffle and anyone can enter, how does that make whoever wins a staff pet?

Oh I meant raptor Dan above you, not you BadSkeelz. Should've quoted.

Quote from: Malken on January 23, 2017, 01:22:28 PM
It's a raffle and anyone can enter, how does that make whoever wins a staff pet?

Because it implies you participated in a Staff program for Staff granted incentive, rather than playing the awesome game we already have for the purpose of playing the awesome game we have.

Program may work for some, or be the incentive they need to plot. It certainly doesn't appeal to me and I won't participate, and that's okay too.

Quote from: Malken on January 23, 2017, 01:22:28 PM
It's a raffle and anyone can enter, how does that make whoever wins a staff pet?

Because the Request tool is biased in favor of those who can write better reports/that Staff like/who can be arsed to actually use it/etc.

I'd be OK with physical rewards if you received them on the PC who initiated or ran the plot (assuming they survived). A wicked scar seems like a reasonable reward for running a combat RPT.

Quote from: Reiloth on January 23, 2017, 01:22:46 PM
Oh I meant raptor Dan above you, not you BadSkeelz. Should've quoted.

ah okey

Quote from: Malken on January 23, 2017, 01:22:28 PM
It's a raffle and anyone can enter, how does that make whoever wins a staff pet?

Dude have you heard those conspiracy theorists over there? Or heck in this thread already?

But all that aside, I actually don't care about that. What I care about is an effect that is visible, IC, that tells me, "This player is special" - because they have submitted enough plots to win a raffle. In a way, that could be a good thing. It tells me I want to gravitate toward them for interesting roleplay. But in another way it's jarring, and takes me out of the game, and makes me think OOCly rather than entirely ICly, and that's what I don't like.

I'm a cranky old lady RP snob, bear with me.

Quote from: Delirium on January 23, 2017, 01:25:33 PM

Quote from: Malken on January 23, 2017, 01:22:28 PM
It's a raffle and anyone can enter, how does that make whoever wins a staff pet?

Dude have you heard those conspiracy theorists over there? Or heck in this thread already?

But all that aside, I actually don't care about that. What I care about is an effect that is visible, IC, that tells me, "This player is special" - because they have submitted enough plots to win a raffle. In a way, that could be a good thing. It tells me I want to gravitate toward them for interesting roleplay. But in another way it's jarring, and takes me out of the game, and makes me think OOCly rather than entirely ICly, and that's what I don't like.

I'm a cranky old lady RP snob, bear with me.

I agree. It seems like one more reason to play the request tool rather than the game itself.

Quote from: Delirium on January 23, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
I'm a cranky old lady RP snob, bear with me.

No problem, I'm usually the first guy to find faults with new ideas and I don't find anything wrong with that idea, which is what boggles my mind as to how you guys can see that as a bad/annoying/more work change :)

If seeing a scar/tattoo that relatively seems original to throw you off your IC game and leaves you reeling with jarring angst for a minute or two, I -guess- I can see that happening, maybe?? But then, I play Armageddon while watching TV and playing video games on my other monitor so I never really had that problem.

Even if you have misgivings about the rewards, I still think these guidelines are a good thing to use when submitting your Plot-requests. Even if they're just a heads-up and not a request for Staff action - there's even a section for saying whether you would like help or not. I'll be using them next time I think of a plot. So thank you for that.

I think Akaramu's point from the first page could use a little exploration though: what IS An acceptable plot to run?

Quote from: Akaramu on January 23, 2017, 12:29:35 PM
An alternative way of having more player run plots would be to allow for more stuff to happen if it doesn't disrupt the game balance. I had (somewhat recently) a plot idea that would eventually (if it was allowed to develop) involve the Byn, several trips to locations outside Allanak, and involve a bunch of PCs / clans. Staff said 'no' and that was the end of it. Maybe some transparence on what is and what isn't possible would help?

We just got these awesome new guidelines for mastercraft submissions. Would be great if we could get something similar for plots.

Jesus Christ.

Quote from: Rathustra on January 23, 2017, 01:54:07 PM
Jesus Christ.

Sup bro?

Quote from: Rathustra on January 23, 2017, 01:54:07 PM
Jesus Christ.

Come on, dude. I like the philosophy behind the idea. I've got reservations about offering these sorts of character perks.

That doesn't mean I'm a brat for bringing up my concerns, which is what this dismissive post seems to imply.

You're better than this.

Meanwhile, I will be giving this a chance and keeping an open mind, my trepidation notwithstanding.

So do these plots have to involve our current characters, or can they be any kind of plot? I've been thinking about a plot that I'd like to do on a future character, but I am unsure if t will even be considered, especially because I haven't created the character yet, and hence don't know how many people I will be able to pull into a plot, just how many I WANT to pull into the plot.

Also I have always disliked in game bonuses from out of game actions. Now, if the characters that COMPLETED the plot got the McGuffin as a vanity item, could earn the scar during the plot, and afterwards have a better understanding of climbing, so they get a skill bump in it, that would be interesting to me.

Quote from: lostinspace on January 23, 2017, 02:22:18 PM
Now, if the characters that COMPLETED the plot got the McGuffin as a vanity item, could earn the scar during the plot, and afterwards have a better understanding of climbing, so they get a skill bump in it, that would be interesting to me.

That would be neat  :) And no one would be tempted to store in order to get their vanity item and skill bump.

I think a few of you guys are being a little melodramatic.

I'm all for things that incentivize some of the people I've met to plot. Some of you need it.

(http://gif-finder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Anchorman-2-The-Legend-Continue-Ron-Burgundy-Will-Ferrell-Sorry-Gif.gif)

For fucks sake, it's a fun initiative from Staff. Stop putting things into a negative spiral each and every fucking time. Staff's pet... we're all grown ups here aren't we? Sounds to me some people are already whining in advance.

Quote from: Delirium on January 23, 2017, 02:17:40 PM

Quote from: Rathustra on January 23, 2017, 01:54:07 PM
Jesus Christ.

Come on, dude. I like the philosophy behind the idea. I've got reservations about offering these sorts of character perks.

That doesn't mean I'm a brat for bringing up my concerns, which is what this dismissive post seems to imply.

You're better than this.

Meanwhile, I will be giving this a chance and keeping an open mind, my trepidation notwithstanding.

I'm really not.

Whoa.  This has a lot of potential. 

If we take our focus away from the carrots, which are a distraction from the real value of this program, there's a lot going on here.

1.  There will be an up-to-date repository of active plots from all participating players.  This expands the scope of what's on the staff radar dramatically, as only sponsored roles are required to do reports, and frankly not all character reports are entirely about outlining active plots in terms of number of participants, etc.

What can staff do with this up-to-date repository?  Get more involved.  If Grebber Amos has a mining plot where he regularly rounds up a few other miners to toil on the sands, now his humble run of the mill plot is on the staff's radar.  They might make things more interesting for these miners.  Maybe they'll find a rare gem.  Maybe they'll find a rare monster that eats their face.  Maybe nothing will happen except a few flavorful echos that helps bring the world alive for these players and to recognize that their humble efforts are seen and appreciated.

2.  This quantifies the impact of player's on the world around them.  This can help staff be objective in their evaluations of how well a player is performing in a sponsored role, or what their potential is for future sponsored roles.  This can reduce the amount of perceived or real staff favoritism, because they'll have stats to back up things up.  Trying to decide between Player A or Player B for that sponsored rolecall?  Well, Player A has 120 plot submissions.  Player B has 20.  It shouldn't be hard to decide which to go with if all else is equal.

3.   This incentivizes players to do book keeping.  I don't know about all of you, but I'm terrible at reporting these days.  Why?  Because it is inherently not very fun, and felt quite pointless.  I spend hours of my free time writing a report and I get nothing for it but a "Thanks" or a very brief dialogue.  Now there's at least some potential reward, however small, to keeping up with this book keeping.  The more thorough I am at said book keeping, the greater my chances of getting these goodies.

4.  The raffle implementation method does two great things.  First, it makes sure anyone who participates could potentially win.  While leaders who work their ass off are more likely to win, Amos the Miner could win too.  That's good.  Second, it limits the amount of goodies the staff has to create to a finite amount so they don't suddenly create some enormous workload from this.

This is great stuff. 

Edit:  Moderators are awesome.  Thanks.

Since I've spent a chunk of the morning thinking about this, here's a couple suggestions for Cayuga.

Suggestion 1:  Add a second raffle using the same list to select a plot at random that will get a "surge" of staff involvement.  Notice I'm saying 'involvement' not 'support'.  The surge should be a minimum of 1 hour of staff time, but have no upper limit if it happens to be a plot that staff get excited about for some reason. 

This would do a few things. 

• It will insure that every single plot in the game, no matter how humble, has the chance to have staff involvement even if it isn't interesting to staff.
• It adds yet another big incentive to report plots.
• Creates an avenue for players to feel like the staff are giving back in exchange for all the effort the players put into this program.

Suggestion #2:  Do the exact same thing, but for staff involvement in plots.  Every time a staff member involves themselves in one of the plots entered into this raffle, they should similarly be entered in a raffle of their own!

• Start up a Patreon account to fund monthly prizes.  Anonymous donations from players only.  Producers are responsible for spending this dough on prizes.  The reason I say Patreon is because they have a monthly installment option, and this program only works if there's a steady flow of prize money.
• Storytellers, Builders, Coders and Admins only.  Sorry Producers.
• Prizes should be posted on a monthly basis along with name of the winning staffer.

I remember the days before the request tool when Staff was an invisible guiding hand to a bunch of cool plots. I'm confused what had changed to require such conjoined Meta incentive to get people to plot in the game.

I'm dubious of a "random" plot for Staff surge. That pretty much defines favoritism, unless you are literally using an algorithm to pick it. There will be bias when choice is involved.

I'll type more when I'm not on my iPhone in a delivery room! Lol.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 23, 2017, 02:40:50 PM
Whoa.  This has a lot of potential. 

If we take our focus away from the carrots, which are a distraction from the real value of this program, there's a lot going on here.

1.  There will be an up-to-date repository of active plots from all participating players.  This expands the scope of what's on the staff radar dramatically, as only sponsored roles are required to do reports, and frankly not all character reports are entirely about outlining active plots in terms of number of participants, etc.

What can staff do with this up-to-date repository?  Get more involved.  If Grebber Amos has a mining plot where he regularly rounds up a few other miners to toil on the sands, now his humble run of the mill plot is on the staff's radar.  They might make things more interesting for these miners.  Maybe they'll find a rare gem.  Maybe they'll find a rare monster that eats their face.  Maybe nothing will happen except a few flavorful echos that helps bring the world alive for these players and to recognize that their humble efforts are seen and appreciated.

2.  This quantifies the impact of player's on the world around them.  This can help staff be objective in their evaluations of how well a player is performing in a sponsored role, or what their potential is for future sponsored roles.  This can reduce the amount of perceived or real staff favoritism, because they'll have stats to back up things up.  Trying to decide between Player A or Player B for that sponsored rolecall?  Well, Player A has 120 plot submissions.  Player B has 20.  It shouldn't be hard to decide which to go with if all else is equal.

3.   This incentivizes players to do book keeping.  I don't know about all of you, but I'm terrible at reporting these days.  Why?  Because it is inherently not very fun, and felt quite pointless.  I spend hours of my free time writing a report and I get nothing for it but a "Thanks" or a very brief dialogue.  Now there's at least some potential reward, however small, to keeping up with this book keeping.  The more thorough I am at said book keeping, the greater my chances of getting these goodies.

4.  The raffle implementation method does two great things.  First, it makes sure anyone who participates could potentially win.  While leaders who work their ass off are more likely to win, Amos the Miner could win too.  That's good.  Second, it limits the amount of goodies the staff has to create to a finite amount so they don't suddenly create some enormous workload from this.

This makes me feel a lot better about this. Thanks for the perspective.

Quote from: Reiloth on January 23, 2017, 02:46:57 PM
I remember the days before the request tool when Staff was an invisible guiding hand to a bunch of cool plots. I'm confused what had changed to require such conjoined Meta incentive to get people to plot in the game.

I'm dubious of a "random" plot for Staff surge. That pretty much defines favoritism, unless you are literally using an algorithm to pick it. There will be bias when choice is involved.

1.  It isn't incentivizing plots.  Those already happen.  It's incentivizing reporting the plots so staff know about them...because even with eyes everywhere it must be basically impossible to keep track of this shit.

2.  Random number generator.  100% zero human choice involved.  Someone's random Mining operation could be selected, or Lady Prissy's Strip-Kruth game might get the 'surge'...which come to think of it has some hilarious potential.  Imagine a bunch of senior nobles walking in on a game of strip kruth.  LOL. 

3.  This isn't about the 'surge' being the only winner.  Having plots of staff's radar, especially in advance so they can prep a little, is going to increase involvement EVERYWHERE if players denote that they'd be open to staff involvement in their submission.  Everyone wins. 

The way I see it, without wanting to sound too complain-y, is that staff can not and certainly DO not watch people playing the game nearly as much as we want or hope.

The amount of things staff DON'T know, without someone reporting it, is genuinely spectacular. As much as I like to imagine the iDB having posts dedicated to each plotline going on right now, I'd be willing to bet there are maybe three about staff avatars causing a ruckus, and not about how Corporal Riev is kanking that Terashi all night.

I mean, at least this is an incentive program that isn't OUTWARDLY favorable to veterans, etc. There's maybe 9 players that really actively engage other players in their shit, for the 200+ we get every week. Maybe this will increase a bit?

Quote from: Riev on January 23, 2017, 03:06:57 PM
The way I see it, without wanting to sound too complain-y, is that staff can not and certainly DO not watch people playing the game nearly as much as we want or hope.

The amount of things staff DON'T know, without someone reporting it, is genuinely spectacular. As much as I like to imagine the iDB having posts dedicated to each plotline going on right now, I'd be willing to bet there are maybe three about staff avatars causing a ruckus, and not about how Corporal Riev is kanking that Terashi all night.

I mean, at least this is an incentive program that isn't OUTWARDLY favorable to veterans, etc. There's maybe 9 players that really actively engage other players in their shit, for the 200+ we get every week. Maybe this will increase a bit?

The flipside is that Players are not reporting nearly as much as we could or should be. So hopefully we'll see more connection and in turn more resulting fun.

I'd still much rather get the rewards on my current PC. Running a five+ person plot with world-affecting scope to get a skill bump for my (probably long-lived and difficult to skill up) PC would be tempting.

.

OH WAIT I GET IT. GUYS I GET IT NOW.

I misunderstood.  I thought staff would more actively pursue plots that were picked in the raffle.

It's just an incentive to plot, and to let staff know what you're plotting.

That means those of us already plotting don't change anything, and we can win cool shit now.  Those who don't plot or don't report their plots are now encouraged to via some sweet, sweet raffle prizes.

I love this.

Gimme a little slack, please.  I'm still taking drugs from my wisdom teeth removal.  That's my defense.

Quote from: Molten Heart on January 23, 2017, 03:25:38 PM
How are winners decided? I mean... it seems clear that staff are still going to be judging which plots are okay and which plots aren't. What's changed? Is it that guidelines staff want players to follow are being published or is this also an announcement staff are moving to support player plots more than before? I guess I'm wondering what's new and how this is a change.

Half of Cayuga's post answers that.

Kinda face palming at this board's reading comprehension today.  Cayuga, I would recommend saving any announcements about cool shit you're doing for a Tuesday morning as I think people are brain dead on Monday.   ;)

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/38/e2/a5/38e2a55fd4fd0eec1523ab90687cdeda.jpg)

DO YOU PEOPLE NOT KNOW WHAT A GODDAMNED RAFFLE IS!!!!!!!!!!111

(http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m26nvnNG5o1qkk10ro1_500.jpg)

- Cayuga

Oh, suggestion #3.

Add a template for this on the request tool. 

Now that we've realized our collective reading comprehension failure...

...detailed guidelines for acceptable plots would still be awesome.  ;D

Quote from: wizturbo on January 23, 2017, 04:19:25 PM
Oh, suggestion #3.

Add a template for this on the request tool.

I was thinking this too.  Perhaps not a strict pulldown-style template, but a few 'stock' examples might help encourage ideas.

The only clarification I would like regarding the raffle itself is whether the Points you're awarded are the same or different from the Entries used to determine prizes:

Quote
Depending upon the scope, reach, and duration of your ongoing plot(s), you will have a number of one to three entries into the monthly raffle. The following are guidelines as to how these entries will be assessed:
One Point: Two to three characters involved, lasts only a few days, or the scope and impact is small.
Two Points: Three to five characters involved, lasts a week or more, or the scope and impact is medium.
Three Points: Five plus characters involved, lasts longer than a week, or scope and impact reaches far beyond your character's life.
Please keep in mind that plots that last longer than a month will need to be reviewed monthly: they will not be automatically considered if they're ongoing due to any circumstances.

If you win the raffle with one entry, you can have a small addition to a future character in way of a custom scar or tattoo.
If you win the raffle with two entries, you can have the above plus an additional vanity item.
If you win the raffle with three entries, you can have the above plus a skill bump for a future character.

Assuming they're the same, theoretically someone who runs a bunch of little plots involving their two friends (i.e. increasingly elaborate stagings of mudsex threesomes) could have a better chance of winning than someone who runs one big inclusive plot. Seems abusable.

also if you steal my threesome idea i will give your PC a reason to wear that reward scar o yes

This is really neat, and while I understand the concerns of a few posters, I'm pretty optimistic.

This is an ideal situation for someone who creates a lot of plots and loves to play really fucked-up, ugly characters. AKA me.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 23, 2017, 04:24:39 PM
Assuming they're the same, theoretically someone who runs a bunch of little plots involving their two friends (i.e. increasingly elaborate stagings of mudsex threesomes) could have a better chance of winning than someone who runs one big inclusive plot. Seems abusable.

I'd argue that little plots involving two friends are actually low hanging fruit to being livened up and made into cooler plots with a little staff involvement.  Your threesome example is probably not a great example of this...  (although my aforementioned example of senior nobles barging in during a game of strip kruth eludes that such things could be highly amusing).

Picture it this way.  Let's say your plot is a recurring kruth card game that you and 2 other PC's are going to have on Weds night.   You hold the game at the Salarri estate, as one of the PC's involved in a Salarri.  Because staff are aware of this fairly benign run of the mill plot, they could choose to spicen things up because they have advanced notice.  Before this raffle, there would be no reason to talk about having a basic kruth game. 

With that advanced notice, they could:

• animate another Salarri family member who shows up piss drunk and demands to join in the game.
• Have Grandma Salarr's pet Quirri get loose from her cage and start rampaging through the estate.
• Or they just make some entertaining echos about the Salarri family member whose into a little whips and leathers screaming in the room next door.

All of these things would make that run of the mill plot way more fun and memorable, and all they really needed to make it happen was knowledge of the event and an excuse to fuck with you.

Maybe I'm just a snob but I really don't see what a kruth game adds to the game.

Not that it's not okay to sit around and play kruth and have fun. That's totally okay. It's just not... doing anything.

Now if it's a kruth game that's just a pretense to get together and scheme/politic that's something else entirely.

Quote from: Delirium on January 23, 2017, 04:51:50 PM
Maybe I'm just a snob but I really don't see what a kruth game adds to the game.

Now if it's a kruth game that's just a pretense to get together and scheme/politic that's something else entirely.

I see it as kind of a stepping-off point. Stuff like that builds relationships between PCs and also congregates them in reliable places. If you're an assassin looking to shank one of the regulars who comes to Talia's Wednesday Night Strip Poker, then unbeknownst to Talia, she's helped you along a great deal.

Anything that gathers PCs reliably together or builds relationships between characters is a start, even if it isn't a full-fledged plot unto itself.

When I ran Salarr's Expansion Division a few years ago, we had a reliable knot of players who grouped together for what I OOCly called Sunday Night Hunts. We'd usually get together around 7-8pm on Sunday and strike it out to a new part of the world every week or couple of weeks. It was just hunting trips, no real "plot" behind them, but gathering PCs together in a consistent way really helped the clan maintain some cohesion and other PCs eventually picked up on it, too. They'd hang around or drop by the wagon on Sunday nights because that's when Salarris were often spotted. Sometimes we'd invite Bynners or Kuracis or whatever along and it became kind of A Thing despite not really being a plot all on its lonesome.

I'm all for anything that gets PCs together and creates patterns that other people can either build on or exploit. :D Even if it's just a Kruth game, it's a starting point.

Yeah, you're being a snob.  Love ya (and you know I do!) but you're being snobby about this.  Not everything needs to be some big, world changing, conflict generating explosion of blood and gore.  Those happen, and they're fun, but they're also fucking exhausting as hell for both players and staff alike. 

An innocuous kruth game that has some random stuff throw at it can create pure fun, without any of stress and work that comes with building a serious long term plot.  It could keep those three players logging in more regularly, and forming friendships or rivalries.  It's good for the game.

Fathi's post about creating predictable gatherings also applies.  Good point.

I mean in terms of it being submitted as a plot.

I'm not asking for everything to be an explosion of blood and gore.. I just don't think your average kruth gathering (note I even said it wasn't a bad thing, just not necessarily "doing anything") constitutes a plot.

You suggested kruth games as something plot-worthy staff could/should support. I ... disagree.

Maybe I would see things differently if this game wasn't such a massive timesink already.

I'll be the guy who submits an awesome plot, gets it started IG, gets staff involved, then promptly dies

I like the idea.  Staff came up with the idea so they have prepared themselves for the work load.  This will help me format my plot ideas and look them over myself before submitting them.  I do think it will be hard to do with something like a half-giant, but otherwise this is a low risk, high reward thing for players. 

Thank you, Cayuga and Staff!

Quote from: Delirium on January 23, 2017, 05:07:26 PM
I just don't think your average kruth gathering (note I even said it wasn't a bad thing, just not necessarily "doing anything") constitutes a plot.

Why does just about every table top RPG campaign start in a tavern?  Because it's a convenient way for dungeon masters to bring all the necessary players together to get something started.  A weekly kruth game can easily serve the same purpose.  But it won't serve that purpose if the staff have no idea it's going to happen.

I see what you're getting at, but I think we're going to have to agree to disagree, and that we're arguing over semantics.

Games/tavern sitting may build relationships and bring PCs together but they are not in and of themselves plots.

My argument is that I don't want staff to be inundated with "heeeey we're gonna have a kruth game enter me in the raffle' style submissions. Or really, to see an upswing in strip kruth games. My main reservation to these kind of fluff games is that they feel entirely too highschool and childish. They belong in the realm of the nobility and upperclass if they belong in the game at all.

Now if it's a few grizzled mercenaries sitting around playing kruth for a pot of 'sid over smokes and drinks, that's a lot more thematic and I can swing with that.

Even so, I wouldn't call that "a plot". That's a precursor or a buildup to a plot, by fostering relationships and interaction.

I don't want people thinking that just sitting around and interacting with someone is an actual plot. It can be super interesting and fun and done very well but unless it's actually moving a storyline forward it's not a plot. It's just describing, in occasionally overly detailed form, a scenario/setting/relationships between people.

Okay I'm putting way too much effort into trying to explain this.

I'm happy to leave that judgment ball bouncing in the staff's court.

I'm sure it'll be pretty obvious from their end if someone is submitting every little thing their character does into the raffle ("had a beer with sarge" "talked to a Templar in the jails" "foraged some rocks" "played cards with Kurac" etc) or if someone is just somehow super confused as to what a plot even is. And if that's the case they can reply to correct course or just tell the player in question to chill.

As-is, if this somehow increases staff workload in a terrible way and inundates them with meaningless requests about meaningless crap, I'll trust them to let us know or establish clearer guidelines if they're necessary.

Quote from: 650Booger on January 23, 2017, 05:08:18 PM
I'll be the guy who submits an awesome plot, gets it started IG, gets staff involved, then promptly dies

Story of my life, right here.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 23, 2017, 04:49:41 PM
Picture it this way.  Let's say your plot is a recurring kruth card game that you and 2 other PC's are going to have on Weds nights.   You hold the game at the Salarri estate, as one of the PC's involved in a Salarri. 

Jesus Christ ©  Bad joke dies a bloody death...

Reading comprehension is bad today. 

No I'm not suggesting you submit every thing your character does with other people.  A recurring weekly 3+ person event is hardly that. 

Second, no,  I'm not talking about the Webster dictionary definition of 'plot', I'm using the language that Cayuga made in the original post about this raffle. 

Quote
"A plot is something that brings two or more characters beyond your own into the fold.  This can be a personal plot, a political plot, a party plot, really, any sort of plot." 

Under that definition, which was defined literally in the first sentence of Cayuga's post, I think a game of 3 people playing Kruth on a regular basis definitely qualifies. 

I love you guys, but omg, please read better.

And lastly, for those who didn't read the rest of Cayuga's post...  The raffle already accounts for small vs. large plots.  A kruth game is worth 1 point on the scale, or 1/3rd the value of a large scale plot.  Also, if you win with a 1 point plot, you don't win nearly as much as if you had a 3 point plot....

Clearly I need to express myself better or people need to apply that reading comprehension to my posts as well.

I should probably use more emojis?  :) :) :)

Let's be clear.

I have never once said I disliked the intention of the idea.

I have reservations about some parts of the implementation:

• the blurriness of what constitutes a worthy plot
• the receipt IC-visible rewards for an OOC construct that are not attainable by any other means.

The first bullet point is ultimately in staff's court to solve.

The second bullet point is solvable by letting someone burn a custom craft submission on having a custom scar/tattoo. That way, winning the raffle is not the only way to possess one (and therefore be instantly marked IG as a raffle-winner).

As a final note, responding "Jesus Christ" or making otherwise snide comments -

Not a great way to have a productive or rational discussion.

Quote from: Delirium on January 23, 2017, 04:51:50 PM
Maybe I'm just a snob but I really don't see what a kruth game adds to the game.

I think it comes down to how one personally defines a plot. When in doubt submit a request, I suppose. Can't hurt your chances, can it?

Regarding the comprehension/Jesus Christ/whatever comments:


assess -v high
A high horse is many times your height.
A high horse appears to be mainly made out of manure.
A high horse is in excellent condition.

:)

Quote from: Delirium on January 23, 2017, 06:33:17 PM
As a final note, responding "Jesus Christ" or making otherwise snide comments -

Not a great way to have a productive or rational discussion.

I'm a pretty diplomatic guy, but that's pretty much my response to what I was seeing on the GDB at the time too.

"Hey guys, I'm starting up a cool new raffle!"

GDB response from veteran players:

(http://supersizedsuccess.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Crushing-it-with-Critisism.jpg)


I'm getting the sense that more criticism was perceived here than actually intended, but that's on the posters who wanted to play critics this morning instead of maybe framing things a bit more positively?

Also, you're mis-quoting me.  It's Jesus Christ ©.   Yes the © matters.  It was meant to be a joke.  It obviously failed to deliver so I took it out.  I surrender from this thread!   :-X

For anyone who is upset at some mild reservation and/or criticism of a few facets of an otherwise good idea...

I guess I just have to say that most, if not all, players have been in that exact position many times, and if they were to respond with something like "jesus christ" or some other flippant remark, they would be bombarded for it.

Yes, I could/should have used more careful phrasing and more emojis to make sure I was coming across right.

Or people could have given me the same benefit of the doubt they so often demand. :)

Quote from: Delirium on January 23, 2017, 06:31:01 PM
The second bullet point is solvable by letting someone burn a custom craft submission on having a custom scar/tattoo. That way, winning the raffle is not the only way to possess one (and therefore be instantly marked IG as a raffle-winner).

I really like this. Staff, read this. Please. Staff, please. I'd burn six months worth of mastercrafting to make my characters codedly uglier.

If it was just a normal GDB discussion, I'd be less sensitive about it.  But it's the reveal of a new program that's going to take a significant amount of work from Cayuga and staff to carry out, is overwhelming positive, and the critical tone of the thread was almost certainly drowning out what should have been butt pats and high-fives for the community.

I'm as guilty of this kind of thing as anyone else on the thread on other issues (include the word Magick and you'll get me riled up real good).  I don't want to come off as a hypocrite here, I just feel like maybe I'm the one who woke up on the right side of the bed this morning. 

Group hugs.  xoxo

Quote from: Fathi on January 23, 2017, 06:54:18 PM

Quote from: Delirium on January 23, 2017, 06:31:01 PM
The second bullet point is solvable by letting someone burn a custom craft submission on having a custom scar/tattoo. That way, winning the raffle is not the only way to possess one (and therefore be instantly marked IG as a raffle-winner).

I really like this. Staff, read this. Please. Staff, please. I'd burn six months worth of mastercrafting to make my characters codedly uglier.

Being able to burn a extended app to get some extra skills/new subguild added to an existing character would be really really cool for those of us who always seem to get locked in to "completely-normal-mundane-non-extended PCs who are too fun/have stats to good to store" too >.>

Edit: I mean, honestly. If I could have busted my ass running plots in exchange for being granted a subguild with Scan on my Arm Lieutenant, I might have done so. Or at least not adopted my "plots are for suckers" attitude.

Quote from: Delirium on January 23, 2017, 06:33:17 PM
As a final note, responding "Jesus Christ" or making otherwise snide comments -

Not a great way to have a productive or rational discussion.

Jesus Christ

edit: For what it's worth I said only 'Jesus Christ'. Any additional meaning was provided by those who replied. It was such a spectacular disassembly and tacit dismissal of an idea, such a perfect example of seemingly bad faith posting that I really couldn't see any other way to enter into the 'productive or rational discussion' ongoing. I can't imagine anyone who isn't suitably jaded by GDB exposure being able to keep up appearances either, honestly. Sorry that it derailed the discussion - which I'm glad developed some greater understanding and enthusiasm.

The ol' edit to avoid being banned for shitposting trick. Patented Rathustra.

I love y'all. Let's have a have nice big orgy RPT and make up?

Dibs on Delirium. She's mine!

I see what you did there Akaramu.

I'd really like to see some examples of each type of plot. I know that every Nekrete I shovel shit out of the latrines, is that a 1 person plot?

Quote from: wizturbo on January 23, 2017, 07:19:20 PM
I see what you did there Akaramu.

I saw what you did before the edit, so it counts.  ;D

I think this is a neat idea to encourage the type of play the involves multiple PCs instead of endless apartment mudsexxing.

I think a lot of the confusion is a result of the different perspectives storytellers and players have.

I don't play actively right now because real life but I'm interested to see how this pans out.

Quote from: lostinspace on January 23, 2017, 07:32:10 PM
I'd really like to see some examples of each type of plot. I know that every Nekrete I shovel shit out of the latrines, sometimes with 2+ other people, is this a plot?

Oh also, are the plots entry into the raffle contingent on completion? I can come up with a dozen possible plots in my head right now and submit them, but I can guarantee I won't have time for all of them in game. If I submit all of these plots am I entered in the raffle for each, or only once they're in progress / completed.

edit: Realized apparently 1 player plots don't exist. Does this mean that loners who actively avoid clans and allies will need to find others just to make plots?

I am a little amazed, slightly baffled, and mostly curious about how this project turned into such an expedition. However, I can not possibly thumb through all of these pages and hope to answer every question posted. If you care to, please submit a question request and I will resolve it as soon as I am able.

The goal of this drive was to push players into interacting with one another on a meaningful level. Maybe an initial Kruth card party isn't a plot, but creating a time and place and having a goal with the Kruth games is, or can be:

Amos wants to skim some sid off of the 'sid pot at gambling night and funnel it into his spice habit, which affects his mate, Malik, in a bad way. Malik is a Kadian aide and Amos had to start sniffing spice when he found out that Malik was being pursued by a Templar because of a sense of helplessness at the only person he truly trusts being physical at the demand of someone else he can't fight.

Amos regularly schedules cards with Amosa, Talia, Malika, and Juan, and they usually have games on these days at these times. Amos worries that if they know he's skimming the pot that they will not want to play, but he wants to anyway because it's his only thrill these days besides the occasional sniff of smuggled spice he buys from Juan. Amos uses these events to manipulate his way into friendships. He wants to see the inside of a noble's estate some day and so he makes sure to invite Talia every half-month as she is Lord Jimothy 'the Anvil' Tor's senior aide. He invites Malika because she is a good source of information for contract prices in the Byn, and he invites Juan because Juan is one of his closest friends (or at least is in his mind, along with being his drug dealer) who would have his back if a fight ever broke out during gambling night.

Over the next two card meets, I plan on spreading rumors of y to accomplish x. Amos wants to steal z amount of coins from the pot to fund his spice habit, and maybe to buy new shoes.

Possible Conclusions:
1) His gambling friends find out he's skimming the pot and react how they will.
2) Amos gets enough money for spice and possibly new shoes.
2a) Amos could be snitched out by Malik or Juan and had a run-in with a templar or soldier.
3) Someone gets feisty at the card game and Amos and Juan have to stab them.
4) More people get involved and Amos has to be really careful because One-Eyed Joe, Talia's mate who has expressed interest in tagging along sometime, is a known card counter.

(The above is something I came up with off of the cuff, so I apologize for its lack of polish.)
--

I believe that the positive posts by Feco and Malken clarified some of what I wanted to say here, but again, rather than clutter up this thread with negativity, I would prefer you send in requests. If there are extremely pertinent questions asked, I will be sure to post them on the GDB so that everyone can see staff responses.

lostinspace: You'll have to send in a request, and from there I can see what you mean about solo-plots. The goal of this raffle again is aforementioned. To further elucidate, submitting plots/coming up with ideas doesn't mean anything if they're not going to go into action.

Quote from: Riev on January 23, 2017, 09:25:30 AM
Byn Sergeants will win every time. They involve everyone! (Yes, I understand its actually other clans that actually involve the Byn, but the idea of Byn "always running the plots" makes me giggle.)

This actually raises a good point: if noble X initiates the plot by hiring the Byn, surely the noble will gain the points being the initiator/person paying/organizing?

Quote from: Gravity on January 23, 2017, 09:09:20 PM

Quote from: Riev on January 23, 2017, 09:25:30 AM
Byn Sergeants will win every time. They involve everyone! (Yes, I understand its actually other clans that actually involve the Byn, but the idea of Byn "always running the plots" makes me giggle.)

This actually raises a good point: if noble X initiates the plot by hiring the Byn, surely the noble will gain the points being the initiator/person paying/organizing?

Why not both?

HAPPYINDIANGIRLMEME.GIF

Quote from: Malken on January 23, 2017, 09:11:44 PM

Quote from: Gravity on January 23, 2017, 09:09:20 PM

Quote from: Riev on January 23, 2017, 09:25:30 AM
Byn Sergeants will win every time. They involve everyone! (Yes, I understand its actually other clans that actually involve the Byn, but the idea of Byn "always running the plots" makes me giggle.)

This actually raises a good point: if noble X initiates the plot by hiring the Byn, surely the noble will gain the points being the initiator/person paying/organizing?

Why not both?

HAPPYINDIANGIRLMEME.GIF

'tis a good point! Depends who staff are willing to reward - it then becomes more about who did what, who was more involved, who managed the people involved etc.

After more reflection, I like the idea in theory but am concerned it opens new avenues for players to claim favoritism where none exists, and will create a lot of extra work upstairs.

Is this tracked by individual storytellers? Who will be the bearer of bad news? Are all players in the same raffle pool or is it divided by staff team (GMH, indie, southern, etc)? If storytellers are responsible for making sure "plots" are being properly tracked, will admins be playing double duty to verify "plots" aren't being overlooked?

I'm not trying to sound overly critical, I just know from experience that things don't always play out the way everyone hopes and the sooner you identify holes in a plan, the sooner you can fix them :)

^^ for what it's worth, that was my goal when I brought up my hesitations. I should have clarified that.

(https://media.giphy.com/media/6L2LsBzqahVgA/giphy.gif)

Quote from: HavokBlue on January 23, 2017, 09:51:37 PM
After more reflection, I like the idea in theory but am concerned it opens new avenues for players to claim favoritism where none exists, and will create a lot of extra work upstairs.

Trying to get my head around this.

First, let's assume that 50% of the players make some level of plots (big or small) to get their name in the pot.  This maybe a fair amount of work for the staff but this is exactly the kind of work that the ST/Admin teams WANT to do because it really makes the game all that much more immersive.

As an example I hear things on the imm channels like so-and-so in love with so-and-so who secretly has a love child with so-and-so who is a secret magicker breed from Tuluk (or whatever).  This isn't a world changing plot, right? But it is potentially world changing to those characters involved.  This (or bigger ideas) is what we are interested in giving incentives to pursue.

Second, maybe people don't know what a raffle is but by definition all entries have an equal chance of winning. It's random.  This will be no different.  I honestly can't think of a more fair way to go about handing out intensives for admirable interactions.

As to answering the particulars on how it will be handled I'll leave that to the people in charge of the project... unless it involves code I'll bow out of that bit! ;)

To clarify, I'm not accusing staffers of favoritism. But we all know there is a chunk of the playerbase that will look at any sort of 'reward' and cry foul, regardless of how it is distributed.

Quote from: HavokBlue on January 23, 2017, 10:58:34 PM
To clarify, I'm not accusing staffers of favoritism. But we all know there is a chunk of the playerbase that will look at any sort of 'reward' and cry foul, regardless of how it is distributed.

And why should we care about that? If not that, it'll be something else.

Quote from: HavokBlue on January 23, 2017, 10:58:34 PM
To clarify, I'm not accusing staffers of favoritism. But we all know there is a chunk of the playerbase that will look at any sort of 'reward' and cry foul, regardless of how it is distributed.

Fair enough.  Nothing I can do to change anyone's mind on that but I can say unequivocally that isn't the case.  Believe it or not, that will be up to the individuals.

Quote from: Malken on January 23, 2017, 11:00:43 PM

Quote from: HavokBlue on January 23, 2017, 10:58:34 PM
To clarify, I'm not accusing staffers of favoritism. But we all know there is a chunk of the playerbase that will look at any sort of 'reward' and cry foul, regardless of how it is distributed.

And why should we care about that? If not that, it'll be something else.

I mean... yeah... in this we agree completely.

Haters gonna hate.

I am in the camp of rewarding the present PC. There is already a reward, in this -

QuoteAdditional Notes – – Do you want staff assistance with this? Do you want us to echo? To animate? Would you like us to stay away while we observe?

especially for the dangling rag-tags. (More rewards are always gratefully received.  ;D )

I get the "playing favorites" thing, I understand what it means. I just disagree with people who think it's a negative. I think it's a positive. That's what karma's all about. It's why staff are staff. You earn your favor in Armageddon, both ICLy and OOCly. Your character has to earn favor - even the new noble has to earn the trust of his peers. Your rinth rat has to earn the privilege of coming out southside and not getting beaten up constantly in the Gaj.

You, the player, have to earn the privilege of playing characters that require more trust, and you, the player, have to earn the privilege and responsibility of joining staff.

This is no different. You, the player, have to earn the privilege of getting a little something above and beyond what you would normally get, if you hadn't done anything to earn it. If you want to call it "favoritism" then sure, it's favoritism. But don't say it like favoritism is a bad thing. This isn't the 8th grade. You should WANT some players to be favorites. They're the ones who drive the plotlines, who code the new implemented systems, who create the dungeon-crawls, who write the new rooms and mastercrafts, and who play those amazing awesome characters that make you want to some day do similar things. Can you do all those things? Yes? Well then earn your way into becoming a favorite too.

Personally I'm so-so on the concept of this plot raffle. I think it's a nice idea. But if I entered and won a custom scar/tattoo I probably wouldn't accept it. Why? Because if the staff said "Lizzie won!" then everyone who saw my character's custom scar/tattoo would know that character was mine.

I'd totally love a mastercraft item, and I guess a skill bump might be neat.

I got a custom "scar" once without entering a raffle.

Anyway,  this sort of behavior (players running plots and staff giving out out scars, items, and stat boosts) should be business as usual, but I guess we need a nudge.

While I'm somewhat reserved about further meta-gamification with IC perks for OOC behavior, overall this thing seems mostly harmless, as long as it doesn't become an escalating trend.

I take a few days break and come back to 5 pages of this. :)

Nice try, Cayuga, but you forgot what I like to call Miradus Law of Internet Gaming.

"The worst part about multiplayer games is the other players."

This is cool and all and y'all should totally roll with it. But it's not going to fit every character idea of mine, and so there will be times I can participate and times I can't.

As for getting staff help with a plot, I've never, ever wished up and had someone send that I was bothering them and to leave them alone. Even when I wished up for something simple like a guard animation or "watch this, I may kill this guy". Almost always the response to wishing up has been to get a little better action going.

And is that the fault of staff? No. I place the blame solely on other players. Why?

Because I can wave thousands of sid around and emote my heart out and a room full of people will look at me like I'm an idiot cutting into their mudsex time, but let the bartender tip me a nod and say, "That sounds like a good idea" and people will scramble all over themselves for days to get involved.

I think the most important thing here is that staff are actively trying to encourage and motivate people to communicate with them to facilitate plots. This doesn't come off to me as an attempt to get players to do more work, but a way in which people who don't normally communicate with staff or who feel like they personally can't (or don't know how to) get cool things rolling in the world have an incentive to step out of their comfort zone and give it a shot.

In my opinion, it's an awesome idea. The rewards are 'cool' but also negligible and don't give anyone a game-breaking advantage. More plots could come out of it, more familiarity with player-staff communication, but most importantly this feels like an active attempt on the part of staff to let people know that hey, you have the ability to do stuff and we are willing to help.

That's super cool. Thank you guys.

Quote from: Aesuna on January 24, 2017, 03:50:21 PM
I think the most important thing here is that staff are actively trying to encourage and motivate people to communicate with them to facilitate plots. This doesn't come off to me as an attempt to get players to do more work, but a way in which people who don't normally communicate with staff or who feel like they personally can't (or don't know how to) get cool things rolling in the world have an incentive to step out of their comfort zone and give it a shot.

In my opinion, it's an awesome idea. The rewards are 'cool' but also negligible and don't give anyone a game-breaking advantage. More plots could come out of it, more familiarity with player-staff communication, but most importantly this feels like an active attempt on the part of staff to let people know that hey, you have the ability to do stuff and we are willing to help.

That's super cool. Thank you guys.

This is the optimistic half of my reaction. Well said.

Quote from: Aesuna on January 24, 2017, 03:50:21 PM
I think the most important thing here is that staff are actively trying to encourage and motivate people to communicate with them to facilitate plots.

My bet?  Much more positive benefit than negative from this effort.  I'm guessing this will mostly help newer and/or non-jaded players.  The more cynical, suspicious "don't you DARE put your spying nose in my plot, Staff-villians!" type will probably not get much benefit out of it. 

Pet Peeve:  I don't like even more focus on playing the Request Tool game instead of on playing the actual Mud.

I'm not normally an optimist, but yeah, I think there's more good that can come from this than harm.

I'm not much of a plotter, really, unless I'm in some sort of structure where I have something to work towards.

Indie Amos, basically, I can never think of any plots that are really big. I need to work on that. But House Amos usually has no problem getting involved in some shenanigans.

I'm not excited about more 'Request Tool' stuff either, but honestly this format is significantly easier than trying to report this stuff via traditional character reports.  And most importantly, this doesn't have to be about seeking permission to do something, it can purely notifying staff about what you're already going to do. 

I filed one of these yesterday, it clocked in at 11 sentences in total.  It took me about five minutes.  If I have a dozen plots a year, that'll be about one hour of extra Request Tool time a year.   That's a pretty reasonable trade-off considering the numerous benefits of doing this, both personally and for the collective good of the game. 

I'll admit, I wish we had some tool other than the Request Tool for this though.  It's functional, but it feels too much like a customer service or IT support tool.  I think everyone on earth hates using customer service or IT support tools, it triggers bad memories.  :)

So... I didn't invent a new plot for this, but put in an existing one. I'm dubious of how it'll turn out, but, frankly, it isn't something that's likely to end well anyhow. If nothing else, it gives some idea of what I'm doing when it seems like I'm not actually doing much at a glance. Maybe it'll win, that'd be nice. Though my writing was a hell of a lot more long winded than 11 sentences and 5 minutes. >.>

just curious, should this be open to leadership characters?  they should definitely already be doing this anyway.

I don't see anything particularly -wrong- with this, but it does weird me out a little, solely because I thought this was already the purpose of character reports; you let staff know what you're up to, what you need done on staff end (if anything), and essentially keep them in the loop.  I don't find the rewards particularly out of place or game breaking, but having to incentivize the behavior that I'm pretty sure we're all exhibiting anyway (by that, I mean facilitating personal plots) seems strange.

All in all, with what may be incomplete understanding or exposure, I don't see it as too much difference from business as usual aside from another approval board.  If you guys want more approval-based stuff to do rather than just hopping in on events in place, I suppose that's your own prerogative.

All in all it's not super amazing or overcontrolling or anything to get wary over.  Like I said.  Just weird, and more work for yourselves where I thought this was already in place minus the 'formal' review of it.

I dislike the "raffle" bit of this, actually a great deal. Creating plots - great! Reporting plots - also great! Fantastic even! But... plots should be the number one reason you play Armageddon. They should be their own incentive.

I've had two stints on staff, both long enough ago that I feel okay talking about them. Some of the most fun I had was being able to find and nudge along the non-sponsored, non-leader, non-superturbowizard PCs who were making neat everyday plots, talking about their virtual NPC friends, or living lies that the character desperately wanted no one to discover while the player desperately did. Sometimes these characters sent in reports; other times I just happened to be monitoring them. In all cases they were roleplaying and creating plots because they loved it. That's what made Armageddon so special to me.

I just... come on, guys, you go over to TMS or TMC and you see "Roleplay-enforced" MUDs talking about "RP Weekend - show up at the shrine to roleplay and get double experience points!" If you're like me, you turn right back around and leave, because you won't find RP or plots of any depth in those games. I get what staff are trying to go for, I think, but like several in this thread have said, it feels like something that shouldn't need to be incentivized any more than it already has been via the karma system, account notes, and so on.

PS: When I heard about this I tried to show up in Teamspeak so I could talk to peeps about it, but nobody was there. Team, y u no speak??

Quote from: Jherlen on January 30, 2017, 11:43:09 PM
I've had two stints on staff, both long enough ago that I feel okay talking about them. Some of the most fun I had was being able to find and nudge along the non-sponsored, non-leader, non-superturbowizard PCs who were making neat everyday plots, talking about their virtual NPC friends, or living lies that the character desperately wanted no one to discover while the player desperately did. Sometimes these characters sent in reports; other times I just happened to be monitoring them. In all cases they were roleplaying and creating plots because they loved it. That's what made Armageddon so special to me.

The plots in Arm are part and partial to why many of us come back, but you'd be naive to think that they're the only reason people play, and that everyone both knows how to start plots, and runs them all the time.

It is very daunting as a non-writer to enter this world of people who are professional writers or otherwise professional DMs and such in their own rights. Not all of us know how to run plots, or prefer to jump into the plots that others make, or just prefer the plots that being a twinky assassin tool for the Templarate affords us.

SHOULD we need incentive to try harder? No. But thats a philosophical debate. We don't have many veteran players because of real life and aging, and MUDs are simply not as popular a realm for young blood to discover. To a point, staff has to cater to the young audience as well.

I suppose my point is: This was your favorite part of being on staff. You believe that plots should be their own incentive. You liked helping out the small plots so much you were staff twice. However, your experience may vary, and the game evolves. Everyone must roleplay their character; not everyone must create, initiate, involve, and mastermind plots. I simply can't accept that.

Quote from: Riev on January 31, 2017, 08:51:55 AM
It is very daunting as a non-writer to enter this world of people who are professional writers or otherwise professional DMs and such in their own rights. Not all of us know how to run plots, or prefer to jump into the plots that others make, or just prefer the plots that being a twinky assassin tool for the Templarate affords us.

It's daunting for some of us writers and DMs too. I don't have trouble starting plots, but they tend to not go anywhere because a key PC dies (or my PC, pick one), or because my playtimes never match with that other person I'd absolutely have to find in order to move things along. Or my PC gets distracted by other, more immediately important or interesting matters. OR staff tells me 'you can't do that'. OR I get bored of the frustrating parts involved in making the plot happen and chase after my own fun instead. It's always one of these.

Plotting as a DM is easy because you have complete control over all the elements you need to make the plot happen - except the players, of course. On Armageddon MUD, I have next to no control. That makes it more fun but also more unlikely to complete any of the plots I started.

Nobody is forcing you to start a plot if you don't want to.

Quote from: Malken on January 31, 2017, 10:02:31 AM
Nobody is forcing you to start a plot if you don't want to.

No, but the complaint isn't the forcing of plots, its that there's an incentive to try. Its government politics all over again. Side A wants everyone to try and compete on the same level, and wants to provide incentives to do it at an investment of time and resources. Side B thinks that if you're going to compete, you're going to want to compete. If you don't want to, you won't, and its not up to anyone to try and help you along. Individual accomplishment vs group assistance.

Quote from: Riev on January 31, 2017, 10:08:59 AM

Quote from: Malken on January 31, 2017, 10:02:31 AM
Nobody is forcing you to start a plot if you don't want to.

No, but the complaint isn't the forcing of plots, its that there's an incentive to try. Its government politics all over again. Side A wants everyone to try and compete on the same level, and wants to provide incentives to do it at an investment of time and resources. Side B thinks that if you're going to compete, you're going to want to compete. If you don't want to, you won't, and its not up to anyone to try and help you along. Individual accomplishment vs group assistance.

I honestly have no idea what you just said but I feel like you're taking this text-based game from the 90's a tad too seriously.

I guarantee you that even if you were to win a raffle, probably only 1% of the playerbase would notice that you have a custom tattoo and/or scar on your character. As for the skill bump, 6+ karma players already have that option x3 on pretty much every single characters they create and I guarantee you that these high karma players already have an edge on many of you.

I think you're misunderstanding my point, Malken. Its that I'm against the people who are vehemently opposed to the idea of offering a small incentive towards encouraging people to communicate more and try to involve themselves in more plots.

I personally think that it might help get newer people more interested in the game if there is something non-karma based to work towards, and incentivize older players to 'try harder'.

The people who are against, to me, appear to be arguing that if you're playing Arm and NOT already doing this, you don't belong here. Why incentivize people who aren't performing to another person's expectations?

Quote from: Riev on January 31, 2017, 10:22:53 AM
I think you're misunderstanding my point, Malken. Its that I'm against the people who are vehemently opposed to the idea of offering a small incentive towards encouraging people to communicate more and try to involve themselves in more plots.

I personally think that it might help get newer people more interested in the game if there is something non-karma based to work towards, and incentivize older players to 'try harder'.

The people who are against, to me, appear to be arguing that if you're playing Arm and NOT already doing this, you don't belong here. Why incentivize people who aren't performing to another person's expectations?

Ignore them, Riev. It's mostly just virtue signaling. "Hey, look at me, I'm ALREADY the type of player you want, staff. Look at me!"

Plots are great and when I play a character who can start some, I do. When I can't, then I try to get involved in the plots of others. And sometimes I want to play a character who just wants to be left all alone and I avoid plots. If staff wants to encourage more plots, than awesome, though the rewards aren't really great enough to have anyone who isn't already plot-enthusiastic to join into the fun.

The ONLY thing I'm discouraged about is that it sort of leans heavy on the plot STARTERS and doesn't really high-five the plot CARRIERS. You know, the lowlife Amos who goes out and actually does the things you spent 8 minutes explaining from the top of your barstool before you went back to mudsex your aide. Lowlife Amos is way more critical to the plot moving forward and creating enjoyment than the guy who created the plot. But does he get any credit while he's out there grebbing, digging, sneaking, and dodging? No. The credit and reward goes back to the fussy bastard who is committing crimes against nature in his luxurious apartment.

#GrebberLivesMatter

So, I was thinking over some plots in my head.  It seems that the call is meant to encourage two things: reporting the little personal plots that you have going on (which involve 2+ players), for sure, but also encouraging us to drum up bigger plots that staff can roll with.  I think.

So, and correct me if I'm wrong, we could submit plot ideas like:

1. The black mantis rise again thanks to a group of raiders in the lower red desert who have antagonized them wearing the cloaks of the Kuraci.  Their lair is here; their weakness is this; etc.

2. A wind witch with a fetish for spiders has been blowing wood spiders from the Grey into the Vrun to shake things up with grebbers, just for shits and giggles.  It lives in a cave with its ailing grandmother who is blind.

3. A crazy Fale Lady waltzed into the estate of Oash and stripped naked and declared all Oashi witchlovers.  Go.

4. The giants have left Red Storm East and a shadowy figure calling himself the Real Sandlord has established a presence there.  He's hiring bandits and ex-slaves and sifters to rival Red Storm, which of course will piss off Borsail and Kurac and the Dust Runners, etc.

5. The Reds have started a war with the Blues on the Westside, but in fact it is an elf who is leading the Reds.

I dunno.  I should put these in a notebook and think on them.

Quote from: Miradus on January 31, 2017, 11:33:51 AM
All kinds of shade...

(http://i.imgur.com/XaUmq2e.gif?noredirect)

I'm in a rare mood. :)

I'm kind of weirded out again.

Don't start plots if you don't want to start plots?

Plots happen just from playing your character in the game.  You pretty much have to -work- to avoid being involved in personal-level plots.

I do agree the rewards are not gamebreaking, as stated.  But yeah...I'm with Riev.  It's just a weird thing.  This sort of thing minus the reward should have been going on all the time.  I don't send in character reports often, but they almost always include some sort of shindig that's currently going on, and I've never imagined that the staff reading it needed an invitation to react to it IC.  That's a foreign idea to me.

Quote from: Jherlen on January 30, 2017, 11:43:09 PM
I dislike the "raffle" bit of this, actually a great deal. Creating plots - great! Reporting plots - also great! Fantastic even! But... plots should be the number one reason you play Armageddon. They should be their own incentive.

Jherlen,

I think you're focusing too much focus on the incentives for this program, and losing sight of what exactly this is trying to incentivize. 
With that said, at best, once a month one player will win a scar and a vanity thing for a future character and a skill bump.  This isn't steel swords or wands of fireballs here.

QuoteSome of the most fun I had was being able to find and nudge along the non-sponsored, non-leader, non-superturbowizard PCs who were making neat everyday plots, talking about their virtual NPC friends, or living lies that the character desperately wanted no one to discover while the player desperately did.

This is exactly what this program is incentivizing.  Sponsored roles and leaders are required to create plots and report on them.  They won't be in those roles if they stop doing either, and they generally also have a series of incentives to reward them for doing this.  This raffle is actually something that's inclusive of the non-sponsored, non-leader PCs.  It's an open call for everyone to get on the staff's radar so they can help tell their stories too. 

Also, are you sure you're directing your jabs at the right person on this?  Basically every example this "Superturbowizard" has been making on this thread is the type of plot you nostalgically refer to enjoying during your time on staff.  Why aren't you seeing that?  Is it because I like the program, and think it has potential, where you object to it?   Why was it necessary to take a jab at me at all by the way?  It didn't help you advocate your position.  What were you hoping to accomplish?

The plot raffle is just a carrot to attract players (who might not otherwise do so) to notify Staff of their plot via the Request tool. Using a new and hopefully more informative format, as well. It's not that big a deal.

Yup.  Some people respond well to carrots. The Karma system is basically the same thing, with just much bigger carrots.  It helps reinforce the type of qualities the game wants in it's players.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 31, 2017, 12:58:38 PM
The plot raffle is just a carrot to attract players (who might not otherwise do so) to notify Staff of their plot via the Request tool. Using a new and hopefully more informative format, as well. It's not that big a deal.

I respond really well to carrots.

If it's just a request from staff to let us know we're up to something then hey, no problem.

Staff: prepare to get the shit notified out of you.

Are mass orgies considered plots?

Wizturbo:

I didn't mean to single you out at all. Very sorry for the similarity there. I used "superturbowizard" as a generic term to refer to sorcerers and mages and powerful PCs of those sorts of stripes, because they tended to attract lots of attention. That ended up being a very unintentional and unfortunate word choice. Seeing your name in the recent posts may have subconsciously influenced what I wrote, but I anyway assure you it was by no means directed at you or any one individual.

On incentives and gamification:

- Being able to play a sponsored role is its own incentive, as those roles tend to come with substantial power and perks. Plot creation and reporting are a natural expectation of those roles. Plot creation ought to be a sort of expectation for everyone, really, so it's the reporting that's different. Creating character reports as a leader PC, and responding to them as staff is a significant effort (or at least it used to be - I've been out of that world for a while.) That effort was worth it, though, because those sponsored roles tend to have much more potential to create action, and staff have responsibility to ensure that action is represented realistically. So the interaction is necessary, but not so much for "plot creation" reasons and moreso because if Lady Borsail is trying to hold a slave auction in the Gaj, someone needs to ensure that that plot ends up the way you would expect it to. But I digress.

- Existing incentives for plot creation are: fun, interaction, suspense, and hopefully positive account notes and karma that lead to more powerful roles, which can create new kinds of plots, which lead to more fun and suspense etc. The karma system has its upsides and downsides, but it does generally tend to encourage interaction (and therefore plots) in order to gain karma.

- Custom tattoos and items aren't game breaking, for sure. But no matter what the incentive beyond aforementioned karma and fun, I don't really like the gamification of plot reporting. It pulls players and staff both further out of the game world and into the request tool. It creates incentives to start plots other than the plots themselves, but because you're hoping for a skill boost or a unique item on your next character. It might subtly influence behavior - my PC would do X, but I the player want to do Y instead to turn my plot from a 1 point plot into a 2 point plot, or something. Others have also brought up concerns about favoritism, which from my experience was always more a problem of optics than reality (not saying it didn't happen) - but either way it creates the the potential for the complaint.

- Honestly, I wish there could be ways to make those sorts of minute customizations availailable to all players without a raffle system. If the capacity were there to grant one cosmetic thingy a month to every active player, or even just every new PC, that would be even better than a raffle. I do appreciate and salute the effort of staff trying to bring unique things into the game, and likewise I wholeheartedly agree with encouraging plot creation. I just don't love the marriage of those two goals in raffle form.

Quote from: Jihelu on January 31, 2017, 01:33:18 PM
Are mass orgies considered plots?

No, I already checked.

QuoteCustom tattoos and items aren't game breaking, for sure. But no matter what the incentive beyond aforementioned karma and fun, I don't really like the gamification of plot reporting. It pulls players and staff both further out of the game world and into the request tool. It creates incentives to start plots other than the plots themselves, but because you're hoping for a skill boost or a unique item on your next character. It might subtly influence behavior - my PC would do X, but I the player want to do Y instead to turn my plot from a 1 point plot into a 2 point plot, or something. Others have also brought up concerns about favoritism, which from my experience was always more a problem of optics than reality (not saying it didn't happen) - but either way it creates the the potential for the complaint.

That's part of the weirdness of it for me, too.  This is what I mean when I talk about staff being an approval board nowadays rather than just...doing...the game.  It's not a complaint as much as it is a critique of the methods being employed.  There's a lot of OOC bureaucracy at this point, and it only seems to be inflating.  'Just play the game' has been a creedo for a lot of people for a long time, but we've been slowly implementing more and more steps that make that easier said than done.

Gamification of plot creation is the phrase.  The 'plot committee' is strange.  Then as I noted before, the 'change' from how it was before; Why was there already no involvement in plots that were talked about in reports?  Was there a problem with plots being hidden in reports?  I don't get where it came from.

You know if I were staff, I would just say I was doing a raffle and then not hand out a prize at all. Kind of like how Lotteries work in Oceania. The points to get you to participate and distracted, not to spend time and resources rewarding a winner. You would only know if someone won if you're a filthy OOC collaborator  ;)

Winning the lottery also doesn't mean your plot's actually going to get staff attention. I'm not worried about someone trying to game the Request tool and gain an advantage. Anyone who works that hard out of the game probably sucks in game and is easily PKed.

Jherlen - No worries.  Sometimes the coincidence dice roll double 20's, it did seem pretty weird and out of place!  :)

As for the whole gamification thing...  Yeah, I don't like having to go to the request tool for stuff either, but I recognize the need for staff to have some kind of method to stay informed in a curated kind of way.  Ideally having some in-game way of doing this would be vastly preferred, but I would imagine that any such plot reporting system would come with huge opportunity costs on the game's coders.  I'd much rather they keep doing all the incredibly cool stuff they've been cooking up over the last couple of years at regular intervals, and put up with having to use the request tool for this.

Then again, maybe some clever solution could be established.  I mean you can already report bugs ingame, maybe this is less of a challenge than I think it is?

Perhaps there could be a staff only rumor board where players could post these, but couldn't read them?  The only problem with this in my eyes is using the text editor in Arm is a real pain in the butt, whereas the request tool is a normal word processor.

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 31, 2017, 01:39:12 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on January 31, 2017, 01:33:18 PM
Are mass orgies considered plots?

No, I already checked.

just wait until my next noble

gonna throw a huge 50 person orgy hrpt in the borsail estate underground harem and win the raffle 5 months in a row

Going to need a role call for throwaway pleasure slaves for LauraMars' orgy.  Sex Gladiators. 

Quote from: Jherlen on January 31, 2017, 01:34:08 PM
- Honestly, I wish there could be ways to make those sorts of minute customizations availailable to all players without a raffle system. If the capacity were there to grant one cosmetic thingy a month to every active player, or even just every new PC, that would be even better than a raffle. I do appreciate and salute the effort of staff trying to bring unique things into the game, and likewise I wholeheartedly agree with encouraging plot creation. I just don't love the marriage of those two goals in raffle form.

All of this.

I'd love it if all pcs could have this option, maybe as an opt in/out step in character creation after desc and short description, like:


Do you have an identifying markers (unique tattoo or scar)? Y/N


bringing you into the short desc and desc for the tattoo or scar, then 'where?' with a list of wearlocs by # which can be chosen. I'm sure that the people who have approved character applications can see how that might show up on the page in the queue under the character's short desc and desc, then it would weed out typos, and stuff not fitting with the game world could be weeded out right then and there, but everyone could have the option. I still think the vanity item is a great idea for a prize for this, but I wish that the custom scar/tattoo was open to all.

Quote from: LauraMars on January 31, 2017, 01:57:43 PM

Quote from: BadSkeelz on January 31, 2017, 01:39:12 PM

Quote from: Jihelu on January 31, 2017, 01:33:18 PM
Are mass orgies considered plots?

No, I already checked.

just wait until my next noble

gonna throw a huge 50 person orgy hrpt in the borsail estate underground harem and win the raffle 5 months in a row

I await your culling of House Borsail and then your family rollcall, "The House Borsail Buccaneers" and the only info on the rollcall is a picture of a pirate in assless chaps.

I meant the Gamification and Request game as two separate hesitations I have with it.  Maybe I misunderstood the original gamification statement.

I mean as in contrived plots versus natural ones.  I'm a fan of natural ones, where you just get in game, play around, gain goals, and so on.  Everything builds on each other very fluidly that way.  Incentivizing it seems like it will be more prone to 'And now I need a plot to make!' which leads to more plots, perhaps, but also some of those that are clearly plots just for the sake of being something to do, which are almost never...as...enjoyable, because they poke out as contrived.  At least to me, anyway, and I am admittedly stingy about such things.  Most things.  All things?  *keanu reeves fuck it shrug*

The request game/approval board thing has been a long-standing criticism of mine, so I just point it out whenever I see it built upon.  As noted, I'm not sure what prompted this when I'm pretty sure people were already reporting all their plots (I can't think of a reason you wouldn't), and so the only thing different I'm seeing is that these are like formal invites for staff to play along...but that's...what I thought the reports were...all along... Not upset by any means, nor saying it should be removed.  Just entirely confused on what it's supposed to change in exchange for more approval-board type stuff.

Quote from: Armaddict on January 31, 2017, 02:09:34 PM
Just entirely confused on what it's supposed to change in exchange for more approval-board type stuff.

Stop worrying about it, then. I guarantee you won't be affected by it.

I feel like this is the sort of thing that once people see or hear about it working out for someone else they're going to be suddenly all over it.

Quote from: nauta on January 31, 2017, 11:47:02 AM
So, I was thinking over some plots in my head.  It seems that the call is meant to encourage two things: reporting the little personal plots that you have going on (which involve 2+ players), for sure, but also encouraging us to drum up bigger plots that staff can roll with.  I think.

So, and correct me if I'm wrong, we could submit plot ideas like:

... world changing plot hooks.

I think you're wrong, but it'd definitely be a lot cooler if you were right.

It seems like this was just an incentive for people to throw more personal little plots, and also to report them to staff. I don't recall seeing anything about submitting plot hooks. It's just baby carrots to try and get you to do the stuff that most of us should be doing anyways. I don't think the incentives are terribly incentivizing. (Shouldn't we just have a custom tattoo-er and scar-er in the newbie room anyways? I can't play a week without seeing someone whose entire visual concept revolves around a specific wound or tattoo.) Unless your custom item can be a fist sized nugget of iron ore, I doubt this will result in anything more interesting than another party/auction where we all pretend to be drunk and see how many fandom references we can sneak into our party conversation without completely shattering the 4th wall.

Not that those aren't alright. But, couldn't it be better?

Could the prize be something that adds more to the game? The idea to pitch a *REASONABLE* plot hook to staff? Design a new cave that gets uncovered somewhere in the game world? Or design an NPC that has some funny one-liners to shout at you in the bazaar. Or maybe the winner doesn't even know they won, but something sweet and random and NOT ALREADY POSSIBLE BY PC WILL ALONE happens to them;  their foraging uncovers a flake of gold, their hunting party encounters an unusually colored creature on its next hunt, they find an old lost book propping up a wobbly desk in their mansion, a small group of raiders begins stalking them on their contracts. (Yes, death is a prize! If you don't think so you're a garbage person!) Something to make this feel less like a game that we already know all the possible outcomes to, and more like a dynamic world where things happen.

Just my (cynical) thoughts.

I once managed to get 2 custom NPCs and about 4-5 custom tattoos added to the game - for a certain Luirsfest that also became known as Gypsyfest (thanks, Nyr!). I wonder how many PCs ran around with the tattoos I wrote up.  ;D

Personally, I'm still going to do the thing I've always done - mention plots in character reports. I'd be more enthusiastic if the rewards were tied to the current character and directly related to that character's plot. What if my next PC is super short lived? The stat boost / item would be wasted on them.

Quote from: Akaramu on January 31, 2017, 04:22:58 PM
The stat boost / item would be wasted on them.

Same risk you run with special apps and karma-related boosts.

Quote from: Malken on January 31, 2017, 04:49:43 PM

Quote from: Akaramu on January 31, 2017, 04:22:58 PM
The stat boost / item would be wasted on them.

Same risk you run with special apps and karma-related boosts.

Touche'.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on January 31, 2017, 04:16:55 PM

Could the prize be something that adds more to the game? The idea to pitch a *REASONABLE* plot hook to staff? Design a new cave that gets uncovered somewhere in the game world? Or design an NPC that has some funny one-liners to shout at you in the bazaar. Or maybe the winner doesn't even know they won, but something sweet and random and NOT ALREADY POSSIBLE BY PC WILL ALONE happens to them;  their foraging uncovers a flake of gold, their hunting party encounters an unusually colored creature on its next hunt, they find an old lost book propping up a wobbly desk in their mansion, a small group of raiders begins stalking them on their contracts. (Yes, death is a prize! If you don't think so you're a garbage person!) Something to make this feel less like a game that we already know all the possible outcomes to, and more like a dynamic world where things happen.

Just my (cynical) thoughts.

Oh...I would so be 10,000% for allowing a player to help add just random things to the wasteland that could be found/are unburied by the sand.  Make the world come more alive.  Maybe you don't even know where it is placed, other than it is somewhere out there.  Anywhere out there.  And then, 7 characters later you find it and go WOAH!  I did that!  And everyone else could go...WOAH that wasn't there yesterday!  Just...yes.

Also a thing in the world that is just nice.  An ancient worn copper coin.  Three pages in an old scroll case.  A small spring of water bubbling up out of the ground.  (temporarily)  Those are the things that not only make you sit back and go WOAH!  They also can grow into plots in their own right.  Just a maguffin here, or a maguffin there.  Little prods to continue your work and create more plots in the world, get more people involved.

What do you do with that ancient rusty iron pocket knife you found?  Who do you trust to even let them know you have it?  Will you hoard it like Gollum or will you try to sell it to someone?  Will it become known as the cursed skinning knife of Amos because everyone who ends up with it gets killed by someone seeking it as well? 

These pages...what are they?  Could they hint at something further?  A previously unknown location (that perhaps some other player created)? 

Water?  Here?  Could a well be dug in this place?  Changing trade routes? Becoming a place that becomes a gathering point for raiders?

I think it would be nice to see small rewards that compound on themselves and create more plots, more adventure, more awesome stories to share with other PC's as this small occurrence unfolds into something possibly larger.

Quote from: Malken on January 31, 2017, 04:49:43 PM

Quote from: Akaramu on January 31, 2017, 04:22:58 PM
The stat boost / item would be wasted on them.

Same risk you run with special apps and karma-related boosts.

Right, but a short-lived spec apped character probably never did any serious plotting. It would be nice to get the reward for the mover and shaker character who's lived long enough to plot, and invested the time,  the resources, took the necessary risks and survived to get things done.

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on January 31, 2017, 04:16:55 PM
Could the prize be something that adds more to the game? The idea to pitch a *REASONABLE* plot hook to staff? Design a new cave that gets uncovered somewhere in the game world?

I've found that asking to design your own adventure thing doesn't go over nearly as well as just saying "Hey, we're going to go to this already unusual place on X day.  Can you fuck with us please?".  Every time I've asked for something like that (albeit, I didn't ask for it every week or something) I've rarely had a disappointing result.

I had a field trip with some of my clan mates in House Oash once before, simply a "We're going to visit this creepy place" and when we showed up there was poison gas, odd malevolent forces at work, and plenty of mystery to be found.  I still wonder what else might've been uncovered on that one... 

Give the staff small open-ended options on how to fuck with your characters, and they will fuck with your characters.  At least in my experiences over the last few years. 

To continue on this thought though, don't assume that the rabbit hole keeps going deeper on everything that happens.  Sometimes it does, but if you keep trying to follow up and turn a one-off adventure situation into an ongoing plot the complexity starts to escalate and the staff might not be able to meet those expectations.  For instance, early on with one of my leader characters I led a party of people to a location, and staff had some fun shit happen there.  My PC convinced themselves there was more to it than a chance encounter, and repeatedly tried to dig deeper into the situation but got nowhere.  I got OOCly frustrated by this at the time, but in hindsight it's easy to recognize that the staff that were creating that one-off fun event were not looking to sign up for some multi-month series of RPT's over it.   A single episode of the X-Files is a lot easier to write than an entire interlocking season.  There's no easy way to communicate this ICly, so sometimes you just need to learn to take a hint as a player and ease off if a particular plot line isn't getting what you want out of it.

Quote from: wizturbo on January 31, 2017, 06:04:16 PM

Quote from: IAmJacksOpinion on January 31, 2017, 04:16:55 PM
Could the prize be something that adds more to the game? The idea to pitch a *REASONABLE* plot hook to staff? Design a new cave that gets uncovered somewhere in the game world?

I've found that asking to design your own adventure doesn't go over nearly as well as just saying "Hey, we're going to go to this already unusual place on X day.  Can you fuck with us please?".  Every time I've asked for something like that (albeit, I didn't ask for it every week or something) I've never had a disappointing result.

Oh, I took this as, design a cave, Imms add it 'somewhere' you don't even get to know really and people get to find/interact/live/raid from/hide/mine/die there.  Maybe you never find it, but it's out there.  Somewhere.  Not really design your own adventure thing.

Poor word choice.  Took the word adventure out.

All I'm saying is you don't need to design anything at all.  You don't have to work to make a plot, you just need to get some people together and report on it.  Your "plot" can be as simple as:

Intro – The five of us are going to check out the red desert, in search of the lost Silt Winds tribe.
Goal(s) – Try and find out about the silt winds tribe.  General exploration.
Plans – We've put together a bunch of supplies and plan to start out in Cenyr, asking locals there about the tribe, before setting out into the deep desert for a prolonged exploration.
Possible Conclusions – Maybe we find them?  Maybe we find something completely different?  Maybe we find nothing at all?
Additional Notes – – Would love it if staff took this opportunity to mess with us.

This leaves so much room for staff to cook up something interesting, letting them do what they find fun.  The only work on the player's part is just organizing a time to get everyone together, and putting together the reasonable supplies needed for it.  The best part is, even if staff don't show up for this, you can still have a pretty fun time with things.  I'd be shocked if there wasn't some staffer out there who wouldn't jump at a chance to fuck with a party of 5 people in a desert though, as long as you picked a time that they could work with.