Nobody would put up with the system in Allanak. They're allowed too much freedom. They can come and go as they please, hire protection, organize and conspire. The Templars are grossly outnumbered and- when it comes down to it- completely overplay their hand on an individual basis. If you're going to have people who demand that much ass-kissing and actually get away with it, you'd need the political system to be so overbearing and rigid that you wouldn't have a game.
A month of this bull and you'd have every able-bodied commoner plotting to go set up their own government in Red Storm or Luirs. Failing that they'd found their own town.
I can't help but get the feeling- no matter how many different characters who react in different ways I play- that this game is designed to gratify the upper tier of characters. I hope I don't go to far with this, but I get the feeling the people who play them were bullied a lot in school. I'm unconvinced by the gameworld and even if you can explain it (magic is the only way it's possible, the water issue could be solved) I'm still too repulsed to find it worth my time.
I'm not sure if this is based on something that just happened ICly or just a random thought, but if you think it makes sense for people to have issues with the system, you should look around ICly.
lol noob
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 06:44:05 PM
Nobody would put up with the system in Allanak. They're allowed too much freedom. They can come and go as they please, hire protection, organize and conspire. The Templars are grossly outnumbered and- when it comes down to it- completely overplay their hand on an individual basis. If you're going to have people who demand that much ass-kissing and actually get away with it, you'd need the political system to be so overbearing and rigid that you wouldn't have a game.
A month of this bull and you'd have every able-bodied commoner plotting to go set up their own government in Red Storm or Luirs. Failing that they'd found their own town.
I can't help but get the feeling- no matter how many different characters who react in different ways I play- that this game is designed to gratify the upper tier of characters. I hope I don't go to far with this, but I get the feeling the people who play them were bullied a lot in school. I'm unconvinced by the gameworld and even if you can explain it (magic is the only way it's possible, the water issue could be solved) I'm still too repulsed to find it worth my time.
No one will set up government in Luir's or Red Storm. Luir's is wholly owned by House Kurac. It is their personal property and they are the one and only government. You can't even rent an apartment there, let alone set up a Town Hall. Red Storm is owned and operated by the Sandlord. The Sandlord owns and operates the granaries, which provides flour to feed most of the known world. You don't wanna piss off the Sandlord.
As far as Allanak goes, you're only considering the PC population. There are NPCs and VNPCs of various ranks. There are Red Robes who are around, and there have been PC Red Robes at varying points of the game's history. The Reds answer to the Blacks. The Blacks answer to Tektolnes, who is the Sorcerer-King of Allanak, and whose last-known incarnation is depicted by that enormous steel dragon outside the western gate. The entire city is walled in, and its citizens are intentionally oppressed, and kept illiterate, its mages collared, and its richest nobility kept on tight political leashes.
This is how Allanak IS. It is also how Luir's IS, and how Red Storm IS. There is nothing preventing you from playing something other than a Nakki citizen; in fact, I personally recommend it. There are a few tribes still open for play, there is a whole other city with a whole different culture and political structure. You -can- start up in Luir's, you -can- start up in Red Storm. You can even start in Allanak, just to have a place to start, and then make your way to Cenyr, or roll up a ranger, buy a tent in Luir's, and create your character's persona and lifestyle based on his existence as an unclanned independent who can quit out almost anywhere in the game, and therefore isn't relegated to returning to city walls, ever, for any reason at all.
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 03, 2011, 07:00:08 PM
I'm not sure if this is based on something that just happened ICly or just a random thought, but if you think it makes sense for people to have issues with the system, you should look around ICly.
I do, and the same people who should be pissed off and scheming are their most loyal fans.
I'm not a newb, I've been playing this game for a long while on and off. My characters keep getting owned by Templars because I refuse to play someone who would give his undying loyalty to several different petty factions who do nothing for him but ask him to kiss their ass and act like fifth graders with power.
I can sense and predict that my post will cleverly mocked and cast aside, which is to be expected. It's true, though, and it needed to be said.
I've played elsewhere. I have odd hours and even if I manage to be one during peak time, there is NO consistent RP to be found. I don't want to hear for the dozenth time that there is if I look, because that is just not true.
Edit: And for the record, all that happened this time was I got arrested for a /barely/ irreverent statement or two in response to several direct and unsolicited insults. I was just hoping to find a dynamic and creative character instead of one just salivating with anticipation for the moment my character crossed the [blurry] line.
The PC population does not represent the incredibly large virtual population. We as 'adventurer' types seem to be a little more liberal than your average salt-hauling bent-back laborer who work for 3 'sid a day.
You should also keep in mind the division between the player and the character. If someone is mean to you, it's probably the character being mean to you, not the player. Lots of characters in Armageddon are mean. It's a harsh game. The system in Allanak IS set up to cater to the nobility and the Templarate and the Highlord.
If you have a problem with the way something works IC, try to change it IC.
Outnumbered.
Heh. Hehehe.
That said...
People do get fed up with the Allanaki government. As you suggested, often they leave the city. Sometimes they go to the 'rinth. Sometimes they strike back. Sometimes they organize a larger resistance. I'm not going to tell you the result of these actions (because it would probably be inappropriate information to discuss), but you may be able to find out in-game.
Also Luirs and Red Storm do have their own governments. They're not ruled by Allanak.
Yeah, go hang out in the desert or the 'rinth. I guarantee the "authorities" there will make whatever Lord Templar Meanie-head did to you look like time-out.
Maybe I haven't said this clearly:
This game is not playable unless you're willing to play a character who will stand around and take shit from a Templar (or you already have karma points).
ICly people like that could exist, but a new character cannot be such a person and still find more than an hour's RP a week. Don't tell me I'm wrong, I know from several attempts.
I'd like to point out that certain authorities in Allanak have historically shown powers mighty enough to destroy entire city blocks. Easily. Without showing any effort.
Templars ain't the equivalent of the po-po, they're a whole different kind of creature.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 03, 2011, 07:13:25 PM
Yeah, go hang out in the desert or the 'rinth. I guarantee the "authorities" there will make whatever Lord Templar Meanie-head did to you look like time-out.
Thanks, jackass.
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 03, 2011, 07:12:09 PM
You should also keep in mind the division between the player and the character. If someone is mean to you, it's probably the character being mean to you, not the player. Lots of characters in Armageddon are mean. It's a harsh game. The system in Allanak IS set up to cater to the nobility and the Templarate and the Highlord.
If you have a problem with the way something works IC, try to change it IC.
I've already covered every one of those points.
Also, quickslash, I generally find templars (unless bored, let's be honest, you'd do the same) will deign to not notice you if you act like you are trying to avoid their ire. If you provoke them, the player usually takes this as a signal you want to be fucked with. Staff hire people on as templars because they've shown the capability and maturity to handle the responsibility.
I'm gonna go ahead and tell you you are wrong.
I'm not sure what it is you're doing with your characters, but what you're saying doesn't reflect any experience I've ever had in my ten or eleven months of playing.
On top of that, it is entirely possible to challenge the IC status quo and play just fine. Maybe you aren't being smart about it, or should try a different approach with your next character?
One thing I've always refused to do is ignore/avoid them. I just play my character. Every single time I've just acted like a self-respecting person. Only the very first time did I even deliberately escalate aggression.
I could play a believable well-rounded character who wouldn't get in trouble with the authorities. I just don't want to. And it seems that the only people who make it here do. That's what drives me a way. It's not a challenge, it's be a coward or gtfo. I'm choosing option two.
Most people don't have the luxury of being self-respecting on Zalanthas, PCs included.
I honestly wish I could list the reasons why you're wrong, but since we can't get into IC detail, the least you could do is read the rumor boards in-game.
See ya.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 07:18:50 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on March 03, 2011, 07:13:25 PM
Yeah, go hang out in the desert or the 'rinth. I guarantee the "authorities" there will make whatever Lord Templar Meanie-head did to you look like time-out.
Thanks, jackass.
Hey, you're the one telling us our game-world is worthless.
You don't have to 'sit there and take shit' from templars. Evade, politick, outmaneuver, lie, scheme, entrap, or just be more powerful. Yes, the templar has the initial advantage, but common mundane PCs
do beat the templars at times. Maybe you just need to step your game up. Alternatively, play someone who isn't directly subject to templarate authority, like a rinthi or a tribal. But what you definitely shouldn't do is tell us we suck because you keep losing in conflicts with templars.
You might be interested in Tuluk as a city environment then. Allanak's authority is displayed through overt representations of gross misuse of power. They are powerful, they control life and death, and they need to regularly remind people of this to keep their hold on the populace. That's the environment. If you play in Allanak, that's what to expect.
Quote from: HavokBlue on March 03, 2011, 07:22:29 PM
I'm gonna go ahead and tell you you are wrong.
I'm not sure what it is you're doing with your characters, but what you're saying doesn't reflect any experience I've ever had in my ten or eleven months of playing.
On top of that, it is entirely possible to challenge the IC status quo and play just fine. Maybe you aren't being smart about it, or should try a different approach with your next character?
This recent encounter was, standing alone, the least frustrating I've had. But it was just the final straw that tells me I'm not the kind of person who can tolerate this game.
Also, I should probably point out that unless you played during Ihsahn's reign of terror, you have no idea what a mean templar is like. That guy was a certified Collector of Noob Souls.
Quote from: Synthesis on March 03, 2011, 07:27:35 PM
Most people don't have the luxury of being self-respecting on Zalanthas, PCs included.
Which is the only concession I'm looking for.
And for everyone else-- I realize it could be possible. But I think even if I played my cards perfectly I'd probably still come out the worse, and in the end I just don't think it's worth it.
Maybe I'll cool down and deal with this shit since I've got a roll with other Players, but if so after this one I'm done.
Perhaps you should stop posting and delete your gdb account.
You failed at playing the game, now you're failing to play the gdb.
Could staff lock this or delete it or something? It's nothing more than flame-bait.
If what you're saying is:
QuoteTemplars basically have the power to do anything they want, and don't hesitate to use it when threatened, intimidated, or annoyed.
...then I fully agree. It explains this here (http://www.armageddon.org/intro/allanak.html#society) in the documentation. That's how it's supposed to be, yes.
Also:
Quote from: Xeran Van Houten on March 03, 2011, 07:34:14 PM
Perhaps you should stop posting and delete your gdb account.
You failed at playing the game, now you're failing to play the gdb.
Could staff lock this or delete it or something? It's nothing more than flame-bait.
It's imminent. And you posting things like this is only fanning such flames. Let's be civil.
I guess it is. I just really wanted to know if the pbase agreed. I've said all I wanted to say now, I think.
The thing is, you need structure for a story, and you need rules for a game. The game isn't designed to please the upper tiers, it's a framework that limits your character's options. That's a good thing in the same way that at the poker table you have to wait for your turn to bet.
Like I said, I didn't annoy anyone. On more than one occaision this has happened when I instigated nothing, drawing the line only at my character's self respect.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 06:44:05 PM
Nobody would put up with the system in Allanak. They're allowed too much freedom. They can come and go as they please, hire protection, organize and conspire. The Templars are grossly outnumbered and- when it comes down to it- completely overplay their hand on an individual basis. If you're going to have people who demand that much ass-kissing and actually get away with it, you'd need the political system to be so overbearing and rigid that you wouldn't have a game.
A month of this bull and you'd have every able-bodied commoner plotting to go set up their own government in Red Storm or Luirs. Failing that they'd found their own town.
People probably put up with the templarate's crap because it's the safer alternative to braving the wastes. People who don't put up with that crap become refugees. There have been refugees represented as NPCs and vNPCs in various places.
QuoteI can't help but get the feeling- no matter how many different characters who react in different ways I play- that this game is designed to gratify the upper tier of characters. I hope I don't go to far with this, but I get the feeling the people who play them were bullied a lot in school. I'm unconvinced by the gameworld and even if you can explain it (magic is the only way it's possible, the water issue could be solved) I'm still too repulsed to find it worth my time.
The worst thing you can do in this game is take attacks on your character personally. Oppression is a part of life in Zalanthas, and luckily there are quite a few ways to avoid the brunt of it. If I were a Zalanthan getting hunted by the templarate, I would do things to protect myself, such as leave, or do things to make it detrimental for the templar to continue, such as joining an influential clan.
If nobody's mentioned it already, Red Storm was actually founded due to your own reasoning. It's a city run by the descendants of dissidents.
I imagine, if we had a much bigger playerbase, there might be more such movements and more small cities, but unfortunately, even Storm doesn't have any players in it most of the time.
Quote from: Erythil on March 03, 2011, 07:42:23 PM
If nobody's mentioned it already, Red Storm was actually founded due to your own reasoning. It's a city run by the descendants of dissidents.
I imagine, if we had a much bigger playerbase, there might be more such movements and more small cities, but unfortunately, even Storm doesn't have any players in it most of the time.
In an effort to balance myself a bit, I want to say that I did find RP in Red Storm once and not only was it the best I've found on this game, but it was some of the best I've found in seven years of MUDing
I'd be happy to work with players who see things my way to get Red Storm kicking again now that you mention it, but with ARM 2 looming on the horizon and myself with a Nakki character to play I doubt it's really plausible that I can.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 07:44:33 PM
Quote from: Erythil on March 03, 2011, 07:42:23 PM
If nobody's mentioned it already, Red Storm was actually founded due to your own reasoning. It's a city run by the descendants of dissidents.
I imagine, if we had a much bigger playerbase, there might be more such movements and more small cities, but unfortunately, even Storm doesn't have any players in it most of the time.
In an effort to balance myself a bit, I want to say that I did find RP in Red Storm once and not only was it the best I've found on this game, but it was some of the best I've found in seven years of MUDing
I'd be happy to work with players who see things my way to get Red Storm kicking again now that you mention it, but with ARM 2 looming on the horizon and myself with a Nakki character to play I doubt it's really plausible that I can.
Arm 2 is not looming on the horizon. If you want to play in Red Storm, go for it. The Labyrinth is a great place to avoid Templar authority if that is not your bag.
...
It's apparent that this kind of incident (dying to templars/authority figures) has happened with several characters for you. Any sane person with several lives would try and fit into the structure if it they didn't fit into it, or go someplace else. I don't see why you continue to play rebellious, non-conforming commoners in Allanak when you can play elsewhere in the game, and if you still want to play those kinds of characters in Allanak, don't be surprised when you get killed for your characters foolish actions/words. Far more smarter would be to AVOID those kinds of figures (or openly rebel against as raiders/criminals), and I know many many players/characters who have done just that and had just as much as much fun with the game.
Templars can kill commoners on whim. Since you know that, you should have avoided them, or expected to get punished if you brought attention to your character.
That said. Whatever. There's goods and bads of the game. Some players like the goods despite the bads, and still remain playing for years. Others don't, and leave. Hopefully you are the former, though it sounds like you're the later. Either way, good luck.
I might try the Labyrinth.
And for the last time, I did /not/ start the conversation. I acknowledge the existance of the Templar with an emote and was singled out. I won't go into details, obviously, but suffice it to say that dozens of vNPCs probably do the exact same thing in a given day.
Then the conversation started, and from that moment I was doomed just for having a self-respecting PC.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 07:55:54 PM
I might try the Labyrinth.
And for the last time, I did /not/ start the conversation. I acknowledge the existance of the Templar with an emote and was singled out. I won't go into details, obviously, but suffice it to say that dozens of vNPCs probably do the exact same thing in a given day.
Then the conversation started, and from that moment I was doomed just for having a self-respecting PC.
Put in a player complaint? There's some awefully played characters IG, but also some tremendous ones as well. Hopefully you meet one of the great ones soon if you haven't already.
A self-respecting person should also have a sense of self-preservation. My most zealous anti-authority, anti-templarate, egotistical character still knew enough to shut the fuck up and do what the templar wants and then to proceed to stay the fuck away from said templar. And believe me, no PC in the game is totally untouchable, not even nobles and templars.
Zalanthas, and especially Allanak, has little demand for martyrs getting themselves nailed up onto crosses. Allanak is a city state ruled brutally by means of unspeakable magick power, sharp class and race divisions, paranoia of outsiders and fear of the outside in general. Any true resistance would be buried deep in someone, and it would be built from there.
I've had my share of subversive characters. They weren't making out with half-elves, keeping company with baby-eatin' magickers, spitting on templars or otherwise deviating wildly from the norm -- they were making damn sure to blend in.
Maybe it's just me, but I've never had issues with people over-exerting their 'influence' in this game.
The current templars are pretty bomb diggity, in each city-state. I enjoy all of my interactions.
Instead of looking at things so drearily, you might want to be more positive and try to learn from your experiences. Like previous posters have said, you can rebel in quieter ways. Thinks, feels, quietly gathering together a resistance or a group of like-minded individuals.
Or, the next time you play, play in an area that isn't so strict in its laws and regulations.
Think of it in Darwinian terms. Your average Nakki ought to know how to whine, grovel, and beg his way out from under the Templar's jackboots. Knowing how to do that is a cultural adaptation.
You have to consider the fact that the majority of Allanakis are the fit in and play nice type, and will bend to a templar's will whether they want to or not. They might secretly not want to, hate doing it, whatever. You yourself have seen firsthand what happens when people step out of line with the norm. Tektolnes and his templars have not retained control over Allanak by allowing rebellious upstarts to flourish. As a player, sometimes you have to step outside what you as a person are like to roleplay a character that you are not. Think of it as acting - an actor will most definitely not fit into a part if they only ever portray their own personality.
I love this game because it's unfair. Nobility are cruel and powerful, and I need to play meek or get killed. It's so refreshingly original in a world of games which want to allow players to, well, have r It's why Arm 2 saddens me - no more overbearing overt cruelty from those born to power. But that's not for discussion here. :P
Yeah, as far as Zalanthans are concerned, acting submissive around a templar has no bearing at all on the character's self-respect. They, like so many other people in Zalanthas (feared raiders, powerful magickers, trade barons) literally have the power of life or death over you.
I don't think many Allanakis or Tulukis consider it shameful or indignified at all to obey a templar. Those that do move, rebel, go underground (literally or figuratively), outplay their political foes, or die.
To all of the above:
I understand this, agree with it and want to stay away from this game because of it. I've tried at least four completely different characters in Tuluk and Nak who actively avoided pissing off Templars but were each pushed to their limit. Usually by the first one they met. It's not for everyone. I guess it's just hard for me wrap my head around the fact that I'm in the minority on this one.
I've played in Luirs and Red Storm and in a tribe and my only grief with those is the inconsistency of available roleplay.
Boring people will be bored.
What I gathered from a short AIM conversation: If you don't want to read documentation in order to play this game, then you're in the wrong place. Obviously people don't want to interact with you even borderline favorably if you haven't read any docs.
Just about the only totally unforgivable thing you can do in Allanak is refuse to show how much you love and fear Colonel Gaddafi and his patriotic enforcers. You're not a bad person to not like this kind of environment, but you gotta understand that you will get pwned over and over and over if you play Mr. Dignity O'Mankind, whether in Libya or Allanak.
But I've seen players of templars bend over backwards to avoid actually PKing people who give them lip. Not to say that they all do or should.
I prefer a system that rewards ambition and crushes stupidity. Maybe ARM's got that to a point. But I also prefer a system that allows you to approach that ambition from whatever angle you choose. ARM seems to only have a very select few such angles.
If I were to pour over the documentation I'm more than confident I'd find some loophole in the system that I'd love exploiting- hell I might even be able to pull it off.
But I have the overwhelming sense that somehow, some way, I would be completely denied any satisfaction with how it all ended.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on March 03, 2011, 08:45:05 PM
Just about the only totally unforgivable thing you can do in Allanak is refuse to show how much you love and fear Colonel Gaddafi and his patriotic enforcers. You're not a bad person to not like this kind of environment, but you gotta understand that you will get pwned over and over and over if you play Mr. Dignity O'Mankind, whether in Libya or Allanak.
But I've seen players of templars bend over backwards to avoid actually PKing people who give them lip. Not to say that they all do or should.
I promise you, my character was /not/ that uncompromising. The Templar pressed until he either chose his self respect or to not piss them off.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 08:34:55 PM
To all of the above:
I understand this, agree with it and want to stay away from this game because of it. I've tried at least four completely different characters in Tuluk and Nak who actively avoided pissing off Templars but were each pushed to their limit. Usually by the first one they met. It's not for everyone. I guess it's just hard for me wrap my head around the fact that I'm in the minority on this one.
I've played in Luirs and Red Storm and in a tribe and my only grief with those is the inconsistency of available roleplay.
No one is keeping you here. The fact that you're staying here and arguing about it shows you want to make it work, though. So here's a few tips I have, in a checklist, from the point of view of your PC:
Why is this templar mad at me?_____ I am a foreigner (a northerner or 'rinther in Allanak proper, or a southerner in Tuluk).
_____ I did not nod, bow, or prostrate (depending on the templar's rank and city) before addressing him/her.
_____ I did not address the templar correctly (Faithful Lord/Lady, or, Lord/Lady Templar, depending on the city).
_____ I am not human, and thus have stereotypes about me that the templar may believe.
_____ I am a member of a clan whose relationship with the templarate is bad or strained.
_____ I have no affiliation, and thus have no protection.
_____ I am a criminal, and am thus under arrest.
If one or more (or especially more) are checked, your PC is the low hanging fruit for the templar to pick.
If none are checked and the templar's mad at your PC anyway, well, there are plenty of reasons for that to be the case that have nothing to do with your PC, and more to do with the templar's own internal RP.
That hasn't been my experience with what it takes to piss off Templars.
As to the last, they should go torture some vNPCs or players who are asking for it.
Anyway, this line of debate can only lead to the dead end where we need IC details. I appreciate all of you who're trying to help. I do have a more clear image of what the pbase thinks of this which is what I wanted.
But if anyone was going to change my mind, it would've happened already.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 08:54:49 PM
That hasn't been my experience with what it takes to piss off Templars.
Go play a different game where everybody is nice to you or only mean for good reason.
emote bows before ~templar
^ That right there..... THAT RIGHT THERE, will save your ass.
If you've done nothing wrong, nothing to instigate templar or law, etc., etc., etc., simply bowing to a templar when they walk in the room is pretty much all you need to do.
It's no secret.
It has nothing to with self-respect, more self-preservation than anything else.
Hell, this isn't even an OOC mindset-- damn near everyone knows this IG, including PCs/NPCs/VNPCs, just bow, show respect, and you won't wind up getting killed.
If your character is -so- goddamn stubborn that he won't even pretend to show respect to a templar-- then you're doing something wrong. If you keep making characters with the mindset of, "I'd rather die than show respect to these pigs.", then your character will likely die if confronted with one of those "pigs".
Templars do not fuck around with stuff like that, because templars-- hell, Nobility as a whole are all a bunch of megalomaniacs who were taught from birth that they are better than all the other lowly commoner filth, and that they have the authority to murder, torture, and/or maim any lowly commoner filth that doesn't show proper respects with no consequences to themselves whatsoever.
::Edited to add::
And come on guys.... There's no need to try to chase this fellow off-- it just looks like there are a few bits and pieces about the game he doesn't understand fully.
I did bow.
It doesn't matter if you did bow or did not bow. A Templar can and will do what they want, as will nobility, as will skilled (or unskilled) thieves/raiders/burglars/magickers. Wrap your noodle around that.
Fun game.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 09:03:06 PM
Fun game.
By the looks of things, you're getting much more fun on the GDB. So keep playing, and play it hard attention whore.
I think he gets it. He just doesn't like it. I'm not really sure that's something anyone can help him with.
I might gently suggest playing a tribal.
http://www.armageddon.org/ic/tribal.php
Don't know which ones are hopping right now, but you can send in a question to find out.
You might make a good raider.
Avoid the big cities if templars are too foreign to your mindset. The desert is more like the wild west, where a cowboy can roam free (until an injun puts an arrow through him).
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 08:54:49 PM
That hasn't been my experience with what it takes to piss off Templars.
As to the last, they should go torture some vNPCs or players who are asking for it.
Anyway, this line of debate can only lead to the dead end where we need IC details. I appreciate all of you who're trying to help. I do have a more clear image of what the pbase thinks of this which is what I wanted.
But if anyone was going to change my mind, it would've happened already.
What did you want to hear from us that would change your mind? The documentation is pretty clear on the matter of oppression in the city-states.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 09:03:06 PM
Fun game.
Yes, we think it is. If you don't like the game's setting, that's fine, but if you dislike it so much that you think it's not fun, then find something else that is fun - whether it's another place in the game, or another game.
This whole thread sounds pretty Tuluki to me.
::)
That is all.
It's a big subtle suggestion everyone should play in Tuluk. Damn their sneaky northern tricks!
The wild west always needs more cowboys and injuns.
Just sayin.
I wasn't taking a crack at ARM with that post, just IsFriday's pointless argument.
Also, Cutthroat- if you could point me in the direction of an active part of the gameworld more suited to my tastes, I'd be grateful.
My last PC was tribal which I loved in theory, but it's so far removed from the rest of Zalanthian culture and has so few PCs that I just couldn't make anything do.
Anyway, now that I'm being called an attention whore I think it's time for me to bow out of this thread. If anyone feels the need to PM me, go ahead.
I reviewed the runlogs for your scenario. If you'd like to have it explained, please put in a request.
Even if there were no reason and a templar was being mean to you for no reason (it was a perfectly good reason): rules 2, 3, and 4.
Quote2. Life is hard. There are no free lunches on Zalanthas. There aren't even
free drinks of water. It is likely that your character will die, and if
you are not clever your character will die very fast. Only (and we mean
only) the very fittest of all live long enough to retire in comfort at
the end of their careers.
3. Sometimes people are nasty. There are no rules against being extremely
mean to others that your character may meet, be it cheating, stealing,
killing, swindling, or otherwise making a fool out of. The sole
exception to this is termed 'the rule of consent', and is outlined
both in "help consent" and in point 5, below.
4. Complaints of unfairness will not be given an audience. If you think
your character's situation was unfair, too bad. Live with it or don't.
See point 2 above.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 07:24:46 PMOne thing I've always refused to do is ignore/avoid them. I just play my character. Every single time I've just acted like a self-respecting person. Only the very first time did I even deliberately escalate aggression.
I stopped reading. This thread is exploding way too fast. All I have to say is that your character(s) apparently have too little sense of self-preservation. Templars have the ability to do things that will hurt you... a lot. They can hurt everyone you know and/or love. They can make that hurting last the rest of your life and they can make the duration of your life have whatever duration they see fit. Your character should be shitting his/her pants. You playing a self-respecting character that doesn't avoid pissing them off is the same as playing a character that does piss them off.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 09:10:49 PM
Also, Cutthroat- if you could point me in the direction of an active part of the gameworld more suited to my tastes, I'd be grateful.
Since Nyr has said there was a perfectly good reason for your experience, I would advise that you take him up on his offer to explain the situation to you. It is the best way to learn from this situation.
It really doesn't matter.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 09:29:19 PM
It really doesn't matter.
A big part of learning about this game is being able to understand when mistakes are made, and having the grace to accept the chance to learn from them. I'm sorry that you feel it doesn't matter after starting a thread about it and getting considerable input, including from the staff. If you truly want to jump this hurdle, think about Nyr's offer for a while and figure out how it will work best for you as you continue to play the game.
Let me try again.
I know everything Nyr could possibly say and none of it would change anything.
I'm not really interested in learning how to fit in with this IG society.
If you simultaneously
- want to reject IC authority in the game by not kissing up to the powers-that-be because you think they are power-wielding 5th graders
- don't have the IC clout (physical, magickal, political, etc) to back your attitude
- don't like to be pissed on when you legitimately piss off people in charge
- don't care what anyone has to offer in terms of input and just want to hear yourself complain
then this game may not be for you.
1. Can't deny that.
2. Sure.
3. That's the part I don't buy. If that's 'legitimately pissing off' the people in charge, this game really isn't for me.
4. No, I care. I wanted to hear that there's an active area of this game where I don't have to put up with this shit.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 09:46:07 PM
3. That's the part I don't buy. If that's 'legitimately pissing off' the people in charge, this game really isn't for me.
You're pissing people off on the GDB using the same sort of attitude; why isn't it believable that it would work in-game?
Quote
4. No, I care. I wanted to hear that there's an active area of this game where I don't have to put up with this shit.
There is nowhere in-game where copping an attitude to people in charge will not have comeuppance forced upon you at some point.
Since this is being pulled out of me one sentence at a time and I'm going to keep responding to direct questions/insinuations anyway, here's an exact outline of what I'm bitching about. If you don't care, don't read it.
My main point was that people wouldn't put up with this. Apparently that's already been recognized ICly via the founding of Red Storm and for some reason I'll never understand players didn't take advantage of it. ARM is structured believably, but apparently doesn't attract people like me often enough to fill out the areas of the game I can tolerate playing in. I like freedom, and to play a character who's judged on his own merits and treated with aloof respect until he proves that he deserves more or less than that. I also like to be able to creatively explore the boundaries of a system that breeds any number of different personalities. In Allanak and Tuluk only a very few specific types of people can really thrive. I've gotten a similar sense from pretty much every well-established PC. What that sense is is hard to explain, but aside from their individual quirks each of these characters really does seem to be almost exactly the same. That's not on the players, but on their choice of starting location. What works in Nak works in Nak. I just don't like Nak.
I admit I started this thread mostly out of a desire to vent, but if you lose a handful of carefully crafted characters similarly see if you don't do something rash. Yes, I could've prevented. But not while simultaneously playing a character I care about.
They would, because if they don't respect and submit to the will of the God King's servants, there is no reason why the God King will protect them. The walls will crumble, the water will not flow, the sky will erupt and everyone will die.
I'm 90% sure I've seen at least one of your characters in play. You're not that far from being fine - you just need to learn to be more subversive and less obtrusive in your discontent.
That said, I'd recommend playing an indie ranger, someone in Red Storm, a desert elf, or a rogue magicker.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 10:05:03 PM
My main point was that people wouldn't put up with this.
Many people in
our world really do put up with this. It's maybe exaggerated in the game; the ratio of PC templars to PC commoners is pretty high.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 06:44:05 PM
Nobody would put up with the system in Allanak. They're allowed too much freedom. They can come and go as they please, hire protection, organize and conspire. The Templars are grossly outnumbered and- when it comes down to it- completely overplay their hand on an individual basis. If you're going to have people who demand that much ass-kissing and actually get away with it, you'd need the political system to be so overbearing and rigid that you wouldn't have a game.
I've played a few Allanaki Templars in the past five years, so maybe I can put in some valuable input here. Contrary to popular belief, as a 'Nakki Templar, you're extremely limited in what you can do. There are places you shouldn't go, people you shouldn't talk to, several things you shouldn't do, and even more you shouldn't say. For these reasons, being a Templar in Allanak can be extremely boring if you're the kind who likes to "do stuff" all the time. I'll also let you know, that the templars who overplay their hands, and abuse their power, are often the same ones who are murdered or store quickly. If I were to guess at how many PC Templars have come and gone in the past five years alone, I'd have to say around 50. That's probably as many if not more than the amount of Byn Sergeants who've come and gone.
QuoteA month of this bull and you'd have every able-bodied commoner plotting to go set up their own government in Red Storm or Luirs. Failing that they'd found their own town.
Try several hundreds of years. And it has happened. There have been riots in the past, and even semi recently. There have been terrorist attacks, and refugees fleeing Allanak for greener pastures, sure. I've even seen an Allanaki Templar defect. There's actually a log about it in the original submissions. Check it out! Also, the general info and helpfile pages are a much better and more useful read than any crap you'll find on the GDB (this post included).
QuoteI can't help but get the feeling- no matter how many different characters who react in different ways I play- that this game is designed to gratify the upper tier of characters. I hope I don't go to far with this, but I get the feeling the people who play them were bullied a lot in school. I'm unconvinced by the gameworld and even if you can explain it (magic is the only way it's possible, the water issue could be solved) I'm still too repulsed to find it worth my time.
Actually, I think it's the exact opposite. I believe the game is designed for the upper tier characters to gratify the lower tier ones, with the plots they create and the RPTs they schedule out of their own time and effort. Sure, there are bullies and tyrant-type leaders, but they come and go at an alarmingly fast rate. If you stay here long enough and finally get convinced by this masterfully crafted gameworld, you'll find that only the "good" leaders stick around. That, or the ones who rarely log in. ;)
Magick is one very good way to change the world, but from my experience, I've found that the 0-karma mundane classes are the real world changers. If you really wanted to reform against the brutal antics of Allanak with a commoner, it's entirely possible. Of course, it will take a lot of time, work, and effort. It will take cunning, skill, and staff co-ordination. You might have to make frends, and enemies, and encounter several obstacles along the way. You may even have fun in the whilst. But if you can't handle ArmageddonMUD, and if you don't stick around long enough to even try, well, I guess we'll all never know, will we?
Armageddon isn't real life. It's a fantasy setting. We are all pretending to be something we aren't in a world that only exists on the internet.
Quote from: Niamh on March 04, 2011, 02:13:24 AM
Armageddon isn't real life. It's a fantasy setting. We are all pretending to be something we aren't in a world that only exists on the internet.
Mind: Blown.
Quote from: brytta.leofa on March 03, 2011, 10:19:00 PM
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 10:05:03 PM
My main point was that people wouldn't put up with this.
Many people in our world really do put up with this. It's maybe exaggerated in the game; the ratio of PC templars to PC commoners is pretty high.
'Tis true.... RL history has shown that entire civilizations have fallen under harsh and oppressive rule as seen in Allanak.
And -those- leaders were just regular humans-- they didn't have the ability to sink an entire city (see: Steinal) under a hundred feet or so of rock like Mr. Tektolnes does.
Why Tek didn't obliterate Tuluk during the Copper Wars? Why didn't he go dragon and wipe the gith off the face of Zalanthas during the occupation?
Mysterious ways.... You'll have to find that much out IG.
Also, I think a lot of people in Zalanthas, particularly the southlands, would not have any concept of the innate respect due to a living being. The commoners actually honestly believe Muk Utep and Tektolnes are gods (I don't know if it's true, in actuallity, or not) and that the Templars are superior in all ways. Most aren't stupid enough to think their 'gods' and such are benevolent, but few would dare claim or think they are just human commoners with political power.
There's also self-preservation. Few PCs could survive long outside the walls on their own, and the vnpc population is vastly less skilled and able than the PC population, in general. Most folk have the choice of live under the cruel boot of evil overlords, or die horribly in the sands, get eaten by Kryls, lost in a storm and take days to die of thirst, ect.
However, I can understand that RPing bowing, scraping and grovelling may be innately unfun to you, so perhaps you could look into becoming a desert elf, tribal, gypsy, Red Stormer, 'rinther or outcast sort. I imagine it could be quite fun.
I tend to think of it this way.
In RL I'm pretty damn self respecting most of the time and have a great sense of self worth. However, if someone is holding a machinegun to my face and instructs me to lick their boots, I'm gonna be tasting shoe polish pretty soon.
Templars are that guy with the machinegun, AND they have the backing of what is essentially God. Even if you're an uber warrior, they have a machinegun while you probably have the equivalent of a toothpick in comparison.
Quote from: lordcooper on March 04, 2011, 05:39:33 AM
I tend to think of it this way.
In RL I'm pretty damn self respecting most of the time and have a great sense of self worth. However, if someone is holding a machinegun to my face and instructs me to lick their boots, I'm gonna be tasting shoe polish pretty soon.
Templars are that guy with the machinegun, AND they have the backing of what is essentially God. Even if you're an uber warrior, they have a machinegun while you probably have the equivalent of a toothpick in comparison.
*slow clap*
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 07:24:46 PM
One thing I've always refused to do is ignore/avoid them. I just play my character. Every single time I've just acted like a self-respecting person. Only the very first time did I even deliberately escalate aggression.
I could play a believable well-rounded character who wouldn't get in trouble with the authorities. I just don't want to. And it seems that the only people who make it here do. That's what drives me a way. It's not a challenge, it's be a coward or gtfo. I'm choosing option two.
Quickslash actually does have a point here, I once played a certain character in 'nak and logged into the game and walked out of a certain tavern within seconds of being approved and ended up hauled off to jail and beaten up, For what? NFC to this day. I believe to this day that while it's acceptable to be mean or what have you, you can be mean , perhaps even cruel but don't need to be an asshole about it. Yeah, it''s fun to you, BUT let's face it, keep that up and do a 'who' every now and then and watch the numbers drop steadily, over and over and over until the game falls by the wayside, I am surprised that some new players even bother to stay here. It's incredible the turnover in the sponsored roles i have seen, absolutely incredible, but hey, it is what it is. I can't say I agree with everything you said Quickslash, but you DO have a valid point on certain aspects.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 07:17:47 PM
Maybe I haven't said this clearly:
This game is not playable unless you're willing to play a character who will stand around and take shit from a Templar (or you already have karma points).
ICly people like that could exist, but a new character cannot be such a person and still find more than an hour's RP a week. Don't tell me I'm wrong, I know from several attempts.
Been playing for less than a year. Not sure what my karma is but it's low. Only played mundanes. And I can tell you from my experience (AND I'm off peak).. this is way wrong. Granted, most times you'll get ganked for looking @ a templar the wrong way.
But I've had TWO amazing scenes in the last few months playing where I took a character into the preverbial lions den w/ a -few- templars and walked out.
I can't stress this enough though.
It's all about how your character is. Not in a status kinda way. Not in a karma way. But in a how you've RP'd them / what they want / stand for way.
Then again.. I have known of one ridiculously trigger happy Templar.. Was just lucky enough to have avoided the said Templar.
I've gotten thrown into the arena within the first 30 minutes of playing a PC not one time, but on three separate characters. Each time my character was able to survive by groveling to said templar, sometimes after defeating some relatively weak NPCs, (with some luck.) One of the times my PC was enslaved into AoD--that was awesome. Another time my PC was "let go" and joined the Byn with Oash wanting to hire my guy afterward because of how "bad ass" he was. The third one, I don't remember what happened. Mighta died. :D
Regardless, all of these PCs were picked up at random at the Gaj for no reason. If you act "realistically" with a Zalanthan response and don't get butthurt, you've got a great chance of survival.
Quote from: jstorrie on March 03, 2011, 07:29:05 PM
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 07:18:50 PM
Quote from: Synthesis on March 03, 2011, 07:13:25 PM
Yeah, go hang out in the desert or the 'rinth. I guarantee the "authorities" there will make whatever Lord Templar Meanie-head did to you look like time-out.
Thanks, jackass.
Hey, you're the one telling us our game-world is worthless.
You don't have to 'sit there and take shit' from templars. Evade, politick, outmaneuver, lie, scheme, entrap, or just be more powerful. Yes, the templar has the initial advantage, but common mundane PCs do beat the templars at times. Maybe you just need to step your game up. Alternatively, play someone who isn't directly subject to templarate authority, like a rinthi or a tribal. But what you definitely shouldn't do is tell us we suck because you keep losing in conflicts with templars.
We do keep forgetting from time to time that we're in the business of trying to grow the game world, but instead we end up driving new people away, yet on the other hand, we call for people to vote for the mud, a bit hypocritical actually. What is funny is that I remember a string of characters that kept meeting another string of characters for another player, a wicked cycle for about a year, i met:
1. The bitchy, vengeful group leader merchant
2. The bitchy, vengeful dwarf warrior
3. The bitchy, vengeful human ranger
My point is that you get to recognize people from their game play where they don't innovate, they play the same char over and over (I have been guilty of this too), but you know, there is only so much time you can spend chatting in a tavern and it be considered remotely normal. I mean, let's face it, you can't sit for two days and it be believable, but hey, whatever.
If we're coddling people that obviously just want to ignore documentation and not adapt to the gameworld (as roleplaying dictates,) then we're not growing the population of players--we're transitioning to a hack and slash. Everyone already knows that we grow very slowly, and for good reason. If just anyone was interested in playing this game, then we'd have a bunch of retards.
Quote from: Is Friday on March 04, 2011, 08:44:26 AM
If we're coddling people that obviously just want to ignore documentation and not adapt to the gameworld (as roleplaying dictates,) then we're not growing the population of players--we're transitioning to a hack and slash. Everyone already knows that we grow very slowly, and for good reason. If just anyone was interested in playing this game, then we'd have a bigger bunch of retards.
;)
Umm... its called playing pretend.
People who can't read and write and have the life experiences and wisdom of your average middle ages serf are surprisingly content with their situation most of the time.
People who are in templar roles are picked by staff and watched to make sure they aren't ruining the game experience for others and abusing their power, although I imagine particularly evil templars should and do get away with the occasional random commoner murder (not that they'd consider taking a commoner's life as much murder as taking the life of a scrab). The population I believe consists of a little over a million people in a vast desert with few and then very small open sources of water, not available to the average person, so the water problem is not, from an in-game standpoint, solvable. Codedly, it is solvable if a few more vivaduan magickers appeared and spent their time filling buckets with water, and it is also codedly possible to have free drinks of water in a barrel at a gate in each settled civilized area. Why this does not happen? To keep up appearances in the game, to avoid breaking immersion, and to make survival realistically difficult, as it should be. While survival would be way easier, I'd be disappointed if water became readily available on Zalanthas. If you think water needs to be more readily available in this game, I don't think this is the game for you.
Quote from: quickslash on March 03, 2011, 07:17:47 PM
Maybe I haven't said this clearly:
This game is not playable unless you're willing to play a character who will stand around and take shit from a Templar (or you already have karma points).
ICly people like that could exist, but a new character cannot be such a person and still find more than an hour's RP a week. Don't tell me I'm wrong, I know from several attempts.
I play offpeak, and my experiences have been very different from yours. I keep running into PCs CONSTANTLY even during the oddest hours. Sometimes, or often they don't sit in taverns. Also, populations shift between the cities - one time Allanak is more active, then it's Tuluk.
Only one of my PCs was ever 'owned' by a templar, and that was due to a very intricate slander plot to set her up as a rinther even though she was not. My experience has been that templars leave PCs alone unless they give them a reason not to. Maybe it's you who keeps messing with templars or their interests, and that's why you keep getting negative attention? It is really, really easy to avoid templars. Just don't stand on the bar and sing a song about how they all suck, that is sure to get their attention - and I see a lot of PCs who do similar things, and then die.
Anyway, had to chime in as an offpeaker's voice even though others will tell you similar things. :P
Quote from: lordcooper on March 04, 2011, 08:47:54 AM
Quote from: Is Friday on March 04, 2011, 08:44:26 AM
If we're coddling people that obviously just want to ignore documentation and not adapt to the gameworld (as roleplaying dictates,) then we're not growing the population of players--we're transitioning to a hack and slash. Everyone already knows that we grow very slowly, and for good reason. If just anyone was interested in playing this game, then we'd have a bigger bunch of retards.
;)
That may be true, BUT sitting in a tavern doesn't necc. mean you are role playing, in that aspect, we are becoming a MUSH or whatever those strange things are called. We walk a thin line true, BUT as the coders and the storytellers evolve (Thanks Morgenes for the recent implementation) so should we begin to evolve. Who says you have to be cruel and mean ALL the time, we're just becoming bullies, then we post on the Bulletin boards about people NOT roleplaying because they don't sit in a tavern for 4 days in a row, passive aggressive things like that just simply make things a drag, just as stifling RP by people who RP that you are NOT rp'ing. Things like this need to be stopped. If you played years back, the game world was different, you'd have a templar in 'nak show up and Deebo a character, that's awesome, but nowadays, people will use OOC knowledge, ie stopping that Dwarf just because someone about 60 rooms away, an extremely short figure stole something from them and this is the first PC they ran across. THIS is what we are running into nowadays. Because people like you and I can put up with this because we know it's the way it is, is totally ridiculous, but we have no recpurse when things like this happen. OR, you can run across that uber mul who doesn't know what RP is, but has AWESOME karma for some reason or the other, OR people calling for UBER priveliges just because they have Karma. I thought everyone was supposed to blend in and a layer is a player, based on his or her merits at the time. If that was the way things went, then we'd keep more new players which is what is needed rather than 4 people who recognize each other's playing style from past associations, automatically bonding even though IG it makes no sense.
I believe in essence this is what quickslash is alluding to. Personally, I can deal with it, there are ways to avoid this happening to you, but unfortunately it's tough to avoid the ganking without using OOC knowledge to know where to go to prevent it.
Quote from: ianmartin on March 04, 2011, 08:58:21 AM
Quote from: lordcooper on March 04, 2011, 08:47:54 AM
Quote from: Is Friday on March 04, 2011, 08:44:26 AM
If we're coddling people that obviously just want to ignore documentation and not adapt to the gameworld (as roleplaying dictates,) then we're not growing the population of players--we're transitioning to a hack and slash. Everyone already knows that we grow very slowly, and for good reason. If just anyone was interested in playing this game, then we'd have a bigger bunch of retards.
;)
That may be true, BUT sitting in a tavern doesn't necc. mean you are role playing, in that aspect, we are becoming a MUSH or whatever those strange things are called. We walk a thin line true, BUT as the coders and the storytellers evolve (Thanks Morgenes for the recent implementation) so should we begin to evolve. Who says you have to be cruel and mean ALL the time, we're just becoming bullies, then we post on the Bulletin boards about people NOT roleplaying because they don't sit in a tavern for 4 days in a row, passive aggressive things like that just simply make things a drag, just as stifling RP by people who RP that you are NOT rp'ing. Things like this need to be stopped. If you played years back, the game world was different, you'd have a templar in 'nak show up and Deebo a character, that's awesome, but nowadays, people will use OOC knowledge, ie stopping that Dwarf just because someone about 60 rooms away, an extremely short figure stole something from them and this is the first PC they ran across. THIS is what we are running into nowadays. Because people like you and I can put up with this because we know it's the way it is, is totally ridiculous, but we have no recpurse when things like this happen. OR, you can run across that uber mul who doesn't know what RP is, but has AWESOME karma for some reason or the other, OR people calling for UBER priveliges just because they have Karma. I thought everyone was supposed to blend in and a layer is a player, based on his or her merits at the time. If that was the way things went, then we'd keep more new players which is what is needed rather than 4 people who recognize each other's playing style from past associations, automatically bonding even though IG it makes no sense.
I believe in essence this is what quickslash is alluding to. Personally, I can deal with it, there are ways to avoid this happening to you, but unfortunately it's tough to avoid the ganking without using OOC knowledge to know where to go to prevent it.
We're nowhere near a MUSH; Armageddon relies very heavily on code. I don't think anyone tavern sits for 4 days either, nor does anyone tell anyone to; to do so is just as unrealistic as someone sparring for 4 days (albeit easier, physically).
I don't see much of the abuse you're talking about.
I'm seeing two complaints in this thread, and they are both stupid.
1. That stupid Templar was mean to my character... That means the Templar's player was mean to me.
2. This game is hard.
(http://chokeonwords.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/cry.jpg)
Quote from: Feco on March 04, 2011, 09:42:52 AM
Quote from: ianmartin on March 04, 2011, 08:58:21 AM
Quote from: lordcooper on March 04, 2011, 08:47:54 AM
Quote from: Is Friday on March 04, 2011, 08:44:26 AM
If we're coddling people that obviously just want to ignore documentation and not adapt to the gameworld (as roleplaying dictates,) then we're not growing the population of players--we're transitioning to a hack and slash. Everyone already knows that we grow very slowly, and for good reason. If just anyone was interested in playing this game, then we'd have a bigger bunch of retards.
;)
That may be true, BUT sitting in a tavern doesn't necc. mean you are role playing, in that aspect, we are becoming a MUSH or whatever those strange things are called. We walk a thin line true, BUT as the coders and the storytellers evolve (Thanks Morgenes for the recent implementation) so should we begin to evolve. Who says you have to be cruel and mean ALL the time, we're just becoming bullies, then we post on the Bulletin boards about people NOT roleplaying because they don't sit in a tavern for 4 days in a row, passive aggressive things like that just simply make things a drag, just as stifling RP by people who RP that you are NOT rp'ing. Things like this need to be stopped. If you played years back, the game world was different, you'd have a templar in 'nak show up and Deebo a character, that's awesome, but nowadays, people will use OOC knowledge, ie stopping that Dwarf just because someone about 60 rooms away, an extremely short figure stole something from them and this is the first PC they ran across. THIS is what we are running into nowadays. Because people like you and I can put up with this because we know it's the way it is, is totally ridiculous, but we have no recpurse when things like this happen. OR, you can run across that uber mul who doesn't know what RP is, but has AWESOME karma for some reason or the other, OR people calling for UBER priveliges just because they have Karma. I thought everyone was supposed to blend in and a layer is a player, based on his or her merits at the time. If that was the way things went, then we'd keep more new players which is what is needed rather than 4 people who recognize each other's playing style from past associations, automatically bonding even though IG it makes no sense.
I believe in essence this is what quickslash is alluding to. Personally, I can deal with it, there are ways to avoid this happening to you, but unfortunately it's tough to avoid the ganking without using OOC knowledge to know where to go to prevent it.
We're nowhere near a MUSH; Armageddon relies very heavily on code. I don't think anyone tavern sits for 4 days either, nor does anyone tell anyone to; to do so is just as unrealistic as someone sparring for 4 days (albeit easier, physically).
I don't see much of the abuse you're talking about.
I'm seeing two complaints in this thread, and they are both stupid.
1. That stupid Templar was mean to my character... That means the Templar's player was mean to me.
2. This game is hard.
(http://chokeonwords.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/cry.jpg)
To follow up, I think unfortunately you may be proving his point.
P.S. For a game that relies heavily on code, there is a lot of emphasis not to resort to code and
P.P.S. The game is hard, not really, it's harsh, there is a BIG difference.
P.P.P.S. I have rp'd with someone who couldn't do shit to my char code wise, but made it seem so and I believed it, that's how it's done.
Although the way most of you are reacting makes this hard to say, I do apologize for attacking your entire gameworld because I had a few bad experiences. Maybe I'm too stupid to find good RP, maybe I'm just really unlucky. Probably a little of both.
I doubt that Quickslash, I think that there is a future of the game that needs to come, but in order for that, there needs to be change and we need new ppl to pull it off.
Quote from: ianmartin on March 04, 2011, 10:07:08 AM
Quote from: Feco on March 04, 2011, 09:42:52 AM
Quote from: ianmartin on March 04, 2011, 08:58:21 AM
Quote from: lordcooper on March 04, 2011, 08:47:54 AM
Quote from: Is Friday on March 04, 2011, 08:44:26 AM
If we're coddling people that obviously just want to ignore documentation and not adapt to the gameworld (as roleplaying dictates,) then we're not growing the population of players--we're transitioning to a hack and slash. Everyone already knows that we grow very slowly, and for good reason. If just anyone was interested in playing this game, then we'd have a bigger bunch of retards.
;)
That may be true, BUT sitting in a tavern doesn't necc. mean you are role playing, in that aspect, we are becoming a MUSH or whatever those strange things are called. We walk a thin line true, BUT as the coders and the storytellers evolve (Thanks Morgenes for the recent implementation) so should we begin to evolve. Who says you have to be cruel and mean ALL the time, we're just becoming bullies, then we post on the Bulletin boards about people NOT roleplaying because they don't sit in a tavern for 4 days in a row, passive aggressive things like that just simply make things a drag, just as stifling RP by people who RP that you are NOT rp'ing. Things like this need to be stopped. If you played years back, the game world was different, you'd have a templar in 'nak show up and Deebo a character, that's awesome, but nowadays, people will use OOC knowledge, ie stopping that Dwarf just because someone about 60 rooms away, an extremely short figure stole something from them and this is the first PC they ran across. THIS is what we are running into nowadays. Because people like you and I can put up with this because we know it's the way it is, is totally ridiculous, but we have no recpurse when things like this happen. OR, you can run across that uber mul who doesn't know what RP is, but has AWESOME karma for some reason or the other, OR people calling for UBER priveliges just because they have Karma. I thought everyone was supposed to blend in and a layer is a player, based on his or her merits at the time. If that was the way things went, then we'd keep more new players which is what is needed rather than 4 people who recognize each other's playing style from past associations, automatically bonding even though IG it makes no sense.
I believe in essence this is what quickslash is alluding to. Personally, I can deal with it, there are ways to avoid this happening to you, but unfortunately it's tough to avoid the ganking without using OOC knowledge to know where to go to prevent it.
We're nowhere near a MUSH; Armageddon relies very heavily on code. I don't think anyone tavern sits for 4 days either, nor does anyone tell anyone to; to do so is just as unrealistic as someone sparring for 4 days (albeit easier, physically).
I don't see much of the abuse you're talking about.
I'm seeing two complaints in this thread, and they are both stupid.
1. That stupid Templar was mean to my character... That means the Templar's player was mean to me.
2. This game is hard.
(http://chokeonwords.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/cry.jpg)
To follow up, I think unfortunately you may be proving his point.
P.S. For a game that relies heavily on code, there is a lot of emphasis not to resort to code and
P.P.S. The game is hard, not really, it's harsh, there is a BIG difference.
P.P.P.S. I have rp'd with someone who couldn't do shit to my char code wise, but made it seem so and I believed it, that's how it's done.
His original point seemed to be that he didn't believe that the populace of Allanak would put up with Tektolnes. Most of us disagree.
You're exaggerating how people react to people roleplaying. When people complain, it's almost always about:
1. Raiders attacking without emotes.
2. Raided fleeing without emotes.
3. Magickers casting without emotes.
4. Burglars cleaning out apartments.
5. dwarves not using punctuation like this
Etc, etc. No one complains people aren't tavern sitting, or people aren't using over-flowy emotes, etc.
Also, your stance is confusing as shit. I can't tell if you're defending the game or not. It's okay to be harsh unless they are being bullies? What, exactly, are you getting at? It's allowed by the docs to be both a bully, harsh, whatever, as long as it's IC.
OOC bullying isn't allowed.If you run into a Mul, or a Templar, or anyone who is sponsored or requires high Karma, and this person is not acting like they should have that karma or opportunity, you have the option to file a
player complaint. There ARE repercussions to roleplaying poorly.
Whining about people being bullies and whining about people being twinky assholes is another. The first is allowed by the documentation, the latter isn't.
My original point was just what you said, and it was explained. I have no more complaints about that.
Quote from: quickslash on March 04, 2011, 10:54:03 AM
My original point was just what you said, and it was explained. I have no more complaints about that.
Which is why I'm slightly confused as to why ianmartin is going on about people being MUSH-wanting bullies.
4 pages of posts for this... really?!
I guess that just shows how much some of the players care for this game. quickslash and ianmartin, you aren't the first players who had problems with Armageddon, and definitely not the last. Some of the posts in this thread sound childish and immature, and the logic used is rather flawed (which I'll credit to a lack of experience with the game?), but that phase seems to have simmered out.
Characters can be asses. So can players. We hope players don't bring that attitude into the game (or the GDB) but we're fallible human beings, and definitely not perfect. Accept that, and move on to better things. We all wouldn't be playing the game if it was a horrible place to play, and some have been around for many years. (I mean, who can seriously play a game for RL YEARS if it isn't any good?).
From your perspective, it seems you've all had some pretty bad experiences IG. So have we all. The staff and players do what they can to make sure such doesn't happen, but it's not a perfect system. Instead, focus on the good, have a kick-ass time playing what you like and enjoy, and deal with the bad IG. There are countless ways to handle authority IG, and countless other character concepts that people can try out that'll make things enjoyable. It may not always be a fun ride, but those highs will hopefully get you coming back for more.
I'll say there were some really good points on this thread too. Let's hopefully keep it from degenerating into a personal argument over who's right/wrong.
quickslash, I don't think you're stupid. I think you have too much pride and you're identifying with your characters very well... the two combined means that you're getting really upset about things that your characters probably shouldn't, because you've got the sense of entitlement common to our modern world. There isn't nearly so much of that in a setting like Armageddon. Just take a deep breath, guy, and get used to it. It gets better.
Exactly, and it's one of the few things I'm /not/ trying to escape from when I go to a fantasy world.
Thanks semper, I don't think feco got what I was saying, but I was pointing out that from the outside, this is what new people are seeing, so maybe we can turn it down a bit to encourage new ppl to get into the game. That's all I am saying.
Quote from: Marshmellow on March 04, 2011, 12:21:29 PM
quickslash, I don't think you're stupid. I think you have too much pride and you're identifying with your characters very well... the two combined means that you're getting really upset about things that your characters probably shouldn't, because you've got the sense of entitlement common to our modern world. There isn't nearly so much of that in a setting like Armageddon. Just take a deep breath, guy, and get used to it. It gets better.
Quote from: quickslash on March 04, 2011, 01:11:43 PM
Exactly, and it's one of the few things I'm /not/ trying to escape from when I go to a fantasy world.
That seems pretty much it, all right there. It's not that you can't see how Naki NPC's/PC's could tolerate the city and its oppression. It's that you, as a player, won't accept the RP required to join this world, won't do more than just change your clothes when you step in. I actually think it has little to do with you identifying well with your chars that's prompting you to wave your Amendment, feel-good-Barney rights IG.
In which case, like some recommend, you can either tough it out, try immersing yourself in another frame of mind, maybe you'll like the roleplaying experience. Note, playing a groveling pathetic human doesn't mean you are one, it means you can weave a realistic story and character. If instead you absolutely want to escape the slightly unfair world to seek a purer merit-based world on the internet, then go forth and all the good luck to you. I mean that with absolute sincerity, because I can understand the desire.
As to those wanting things 'tuned' down to bring in new players, I respectfully protest. I am a very new player, and even only browsing the documents before leaping in, I got a very clear idea of the world I was joining and expected to help keep alive. I was further explicitly warned that I may experience unfairness both IG and as a playing experience. I was actually a little disappointed that my first char wasn't killed in a omfg-what-just-happened-fest.
To soften the game and guide players in gently when they are so clearly warned, would be like apologizing to someone with a peanut allergy complaining about how they broke out from eating peanut butter. Or, a murder novel apologizing to someone reading and complaining that there's too much death in it.
Armageddon is what it is, the GDB and in-game players are plenty helpful enough to support anybody who actually wants to join this world.
Most of that has already been covered, as have my counter-points.
I'm sure everyone has certain types of characters they don't feel the need/desire to portray. You need to care about your character, and for me that's difficult to do while getting along in Nak/Tuluk.
But- thanks to some patient people both in and outside of these forums- I've been convinced that I may have overlooked some of Nak's better qualities.
Ugh, you are getting so boring and repetitive with your "I can't get over myself" attitude. ::)
Can someone please lock this thread? It's clearly serving no purpose now, beyond advertising this guy's complete lack of desire to play in accordance with the documentation.
I wouldn't usually say this but... Ok Synthesis, whatever you want.