Armageddon General Discussion Board

Hey all.
I was just thinking, there's not really much religion in Armageddon.
It's actually quite surprising, for I think some sort of gods or something would really add a lot more into the game. Also, I find that people don't really talk about the Highlord much, who, I think, is the closest thing to a God there is.
Do you think it would be okay for some characters to worship certain things, for instance, some type of animal, or something like that?

PS Sorry, my post is a little fragmented and wierd, I haven't been playing for awhile, I'm just getting back into the game after a few-month break.

City-State: god = sorceror king.

Tribals: they have various beliefs and things that they worship already.

Kurac: spice?

There are two reasons, in my eyes, why there is practically no religion in game.

First of all, there is the OOC atmosphere of the game.  Zalanthas is a desolate, hopeless, godforsaken place.  The lack of religion and afterlife and respect for the dead just makes it that much more terrible.

Second, there are the IC things - Tektolnes and Muk Utep, who rule the two largest humanoid population centers, only want themselves to be worshipped.  And they're both humans as far as anyone knows (according to Help Race_Human), so they're not exactly divine entities.  Just real powerful dudes.

With this said, some characters are religious in game.  Some worship their Sorcerer-Kings, while other choose to worship Lirathu (the 'good' moon) or Jihae (the 'bad' moon).  Others might worship an element, or a sort of animal or plant.  Tribals also tend to have their own belief.


However, note that in the cities, nobody would ever admit to worship anyone other than the Sorcerer-King, or to not worship them, because this makes the templars sad.  And then they cry.  And nobody likes a sobbing templar because it's just such a sorry sight.  You're breaking their hearts, man, can't you see it!  You damn evil bastard!

The kings of their respective city states wish to be viewed as gods, if they arn't (do you really know they are not?) and will squash any attempt at religion. But with the type of awe inspiring miraculousness they can and do preform, and the grand scale and nature of their underlings, its really only the brain of the player that makes their characters act unrealistically. Too few people treat them as gods, because the player cannot properly place the character in the type of situations, because in real life its hard for alot to "believe".

Well pretend that God, the one from the bible, was constantly doing things in your everday life, and prophets and spreaders of his word were all around you, on the streets, inspiring belief through the constant display of miracles in the form of even the everyday magick water-creating fountain, etc. His golden palace, something imcomprehensible in both size, and how it possibly exists looms over your everyday.

Anyways, there is religion, if by religion you mean the most common definition: Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe. Most people in either citystate worship through either fear or love, their sorcerer king, because its because of either his mercy or vindictiveness that your allowed to exist, because any moment he chooses otherwise his faithful minions (Templars) could end your life through the imposing of what is obviously his will.

There is a bit more... ?belief? I guess in the north, where at least symbolism and idolatry is a bit more rampant. Even the main-tavern is a tribute to their god. But overall the problem is that religion as a whole is not accurately portrayed by the existing playerbase, so the overall retention rate is slim and it makes it look like there is none.

A nice solution would be for influential PCs to include some more devoutness in their daily routine. I remember a time when (a) certain clan(s) required their PCs to go to morning devotions (when it was a coded feature), and that was a nice start.

Also, an appurtenance to my above statement is common inability to seperate real-life impressions/beliefs of what constitutes a god to in-game terms. I dont think the term god would ever even be used or considered, since there is no background for the belief or existence of gods. Supreme being would perhaps be a better moniker.

And in Zalanthas, a land pretty much governed by primal rules of strenth, and survival of the fittest, a supreme being would either command the respect/worship or fear/hate of the masses. Regardless of whether or not in our player minds what actions he's done constitute something 'godlike' in our real world. As far as your character is concerned, what the Highlord/Muk-Utep and their templars are doing and have done in the generally available 'knowledge' your PC would have, is by far the most miraculous, fearful, awe-inspiring and grandiose things ever, and they are likely the most powerful things you have ever seen or will ever see. Their presence is felt in someway in every day of your life, from witnessing some act of theirs to being reminded of their existence through the day to day run ins with templars that are common on most streets.

Yet some players can go their whole characters life without any passive or overt regard to either templars or their supreme beings.

And the help race_human thing is a bit misleading. Just because someone may or may not appear human, would not trump the fact that the common belief would be that they have existed since at least the founding of either city-state, making them not only immortal, but the founders of what many consider to be their known world.

I think a steel construction thats 40 feet high and just as long with a wind span of 100 feet is enough to make people believe the power of a certain king. However most players don't have the time nor inclination to worship something that never comes out of his hole.

Yet millions of people in the real world worship a God that never comes out of his hole... <_<

I seriously think that the lack of religion is a sad fact missing from the world of Zalanthas.  I'll post more about this, after I do some searching on the GDB about other posts about this.

Well, I, for one, think that my current char (my first after a loong break) will worship nature a bit... (shes a ranger, so shell spend a lot of time out of doors)
I.E. thanking nature for it's (somewhat limited) bounty, thanking the spirits of hunted animals, etc...
Not quite religion, more like spirituality.

A big part of what makes Zalanthas great is that it is a barren wasteland. A godless realm with no great hope for a future, abandoned by whatever gods may have once ruled over it.

There are no good things to come. There are no mystical saviors that will save you. There is no heavenly afterlife where your "soul" (if such a thing exists) will be able to find eternal peace after a lifetime of suffering.

We are all alone. We live alone, and before too long, we will die alone.

So let's not be tryin' ta turn this into Every Other Mud out there, eh?

:lol:

Quote from: "mansa"I seriously think that the lack of religion is a sad fact missing from the world of Zalanthas.  I'll post more about this, after I do some searching on the GDB about other posts about this.

You know, I remember someone on these boards saying once that Zalanthas was too harsh for religion.  I have to call that an ignorant assumption.  On Earth, every society with any serious pressure placed on it develops religion.  On Zalanthas, the gith's supposed ritualism is a reflection of this.

Someone mentioned religion as the belief in the supernatural.  The fact is, that's flat out wrong.  A religion is a collection of beliefs and traditions.  That's why we have no religion in Zalanthas : no one has made up the necessary beliefs and rituals.

Quote from: "facehugger"A big part of what makes Zalanthas great is that it is a barren wasteland. A godless realm with no great hope for a future, abandoned by whatever gods may have once ruled over it.

There are no good things to come. There are no mystical saviors that will save you. There is no heavenly afterlife where your "soul" (if such a thing exists) will be able to find eternal peace after a lifetime of suffering.

We are all alone. We live alone, and before too long, we will die alone.

So let's not be tryin' ta turn this into Every Other Mud out there, eh?

:lol:

religion does not have to encompass a belief in soul, good, bad, saviors, saints, or sinners. Religion does not have to have gods. Its a belief in and reverence of a supernatural power as governor of all things.

Quote from: "Dalmeth"
The fact is, that's flat out wrong.  A religion is a collection of beliefs and traditions.

No that is called culture and heritage.

Quote from: "Anonymous"No that is called culture and heritage.

No, religion and heritage are a part of culture

This is about to get way out of hand..

Religion as defined by dictionary.com:

1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
4. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
5. A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

So now that we have semantics out of the way, religion is cultural in nature because it (generally, excluding prophets) has to be passed down.  So my solution for the lack of religion?  Create a prophet and go out there and convert the heathens!

There was a nicely written post made by Nessalin years ago on the old GDB regarding religion and why he, seemingly, wanted it out of ArmageddonMUD.  If memory serves, the key reason was that in stock fantasy games, the players' actions become controlled by their deity.  People do things for the sake of their god(dess), not because they want to.  If you look at Dragonlance and Forgotten Realms genre, the character's actions are bent to the will of whomever they worship.  Thankfully, this isn't so with ArmageddonMUD primarily because it is unique in that it lacks any largescale, sponsored religion.

Personally, I rather like the way things are in regards with religion.  Throughout history there have been and still are civilisations which lack religious beliefs.  I think it's fitting with the ArmageddonMUD theme to lack any major religions.

Someone here posted that the 'religion' is underplayed by the PCs. Yes. The highlord is god. He is. Ahyup.

Anyways, I would love to see random dwarves or other power-minded individuals start up religions, only to be squashed like bugs.

Think, the king sending out the militia to stomp the most recent brand of cult.  That seems fine to me.

That.. could be really cool, Dracul.

Just to add, I think one of the things which makes Arm so unique is it's lack of largescale religion.  Throw in a pantheon of gods and goddesses, equipped with temples and such, and you'll ruin the atmosphere of the game.  

Prostration before a Tektolnes idol is different from actual worship, inasmuch as its purpose is to invoke fear and obeisance, rather than actually preach some sort of gospel.  In this case, it's not religion, it's control.  Even the white-robed templars with their "Morning Devotions" are setup to invoke fear, not inspire theological perceptions of their god-king.

As for Tuluk, there doesn't seem to be much in the way or Muk Utep worship as far as I can tell, only reverence.  In either instance, the city-state rulers are respected, sometimes bowed down to, but (in my opinion) neither of the two are actual "religions", thankfully.

Over the years countless players have pleaded for religion beyond the scattered beliefs of tribals and such, asking for something larger, something akin to Zeus or Odin.  But I think, if you were to do this, in the end, you would have Forgotten Realms.  You would have Magic the Gathering.  You would have cheesy, crap stock fantasy fluff.  In essence, you would have: ©

Keep ArmageddonMUD original.  Keep it free of religion.

I agree, Pantoufle.

But that doesn't mean that the idea of a cult that forms, gains some following, and then is subsequently wiped out by a pissed-off Tektolnes wouldn't be a fun plot.

Any form of religion in Zalanthas that I can see seems based around not reverence or the preaching of gospels, but mind control, plain and simple.  Control the heathen masses through fear and intimidation - that's what the dragon idol in Allanak is about; it's not just telling you, "Look who saved us from the stump-legged dwarves", but "Look who saved us from the stump-legged dwarves, and who you'll be pissing off if you do that, and remember what he can do." Neither Tektolnes nor Muk Utep put much stock in esoterics, I doubt; they've already amassed their power - the game is about consolidating and preserving it now. Consider the world's society, its instability - people are too caught up in daily mundane concerns like eating and watching out for that dagger in the back to worry about the *next* life. They just want to stay alive.

The respective powers of Zalanthas, Tek and Utep, are both too utilitarian and powerful to use their long arms to preach gospels of salvation and redemption if you turn over to their side. They are preaching damnation and flaming death if you refuse their edicts. Very Old Testament shit.

That is not to say that were any form of organized religion to crop up that it wouldn't be enormously popular - I mean, consider the social climate when religion first *did* arise. Death abroad, short life spans, harsh living conditions - people wanted something to look forward to after that last step in this life. (I'm not drawing a comparative analysis between Zalanthas and reality, just stating what I believe to be common knowledge.) Realistically, however, even if the idea appealed to someone, it would more than likely be blasted to cinders before it got even a modicum of respect.

Remember Stienal, after all. The so-called god-kings are big-time monopolists, and someone siphoning off their powerbase kind of irks them, it seems.

The whole Muk/Tek=God thing kind of bothers me. Not because it's a bad idea, but because they aren't really worshipped, or even noticed, enough. Sure, they have the Templarate to run around, harassing the population into submission, but... Bleh. "Do it or I'll fucking kill you." is pretty persuasive, but not so persuasive as "Do this, and the Highlord's gifts will be many. He cares for all his Children, especially those who prove useful... Do this not, and you will see his Wrath, and none may stand against it..."

I would like to see a few Templar take a more active role into whipping up religious fervor among the masses, especially in Allanak. Get a few witch burnings together. Round up all the assholes in the Barrel and have group devotion. That King -is- there, and he -is- the reason you aren't scratching a pitiful excuse for a living from the sand. Remind these ignorant commoners why Tek/Muk is the one reason they live such a good life. Your life blows, you say? Best you donate to the Highlord's coffers and rededicate yourself to him, lest it gets any worse. A few hundred sid should keep you from exploding suddenly. He does shit like that, you know... He IS God, after all.

I don't want a pantheon of set deities. That's cheesy. I would, however, like to see more visible evidence of the 'religions' of the City States.

-WP

QuoteSure, they have the Templarate to run around, harassing the population into submission, but... Bleh. "Do it or I'll fucking kill you." is pretty persuasive, but not so persuasive as "Do this, and the Highlord's gifts will be many. He cares for all his Children, especially those who prove useful... Do this not, and you will see his Wrath, and none may stand against it..." I would like to see a few Templar take a more active role into whipping up religious fervor among the masses, especially in Allanak. Get a few witch burnings together. Round up all the assholes in the Barrel and have group devotion. That King -is- there, and he -is- the reason you aren't scratching a pitiful excuse for a living from the sand. Remind these ignorant commoners why Tek/Muk is the one reason they live such a good life.

Oh, yes, yes, yes! A bit cliche, perhaps, but it rings true. In lieu of seeding a completely new religion - animism, spiritualism, whatever - a more true-to-theme idea would be to solidify what is already there. Show the populous, high and low alike, what the term "god-king" really means. This seems like a wonderful idea, and one which the players themselves can employ as opposed to relying on intervention from the staff.

I second WarriorPoet's ideas.
Religious Templars, please unite!

It isn't the purpose of the templars in either city-state to invoke religious fervour.  They're not there to stir up the masses and get people excited about worshipping their leader.  I would find it both boring and uncharacteristic of a templar if (s)he waltzed into the Bard's Barrel and tried to get the playerbase bowing down to Tektolnes like a muslim might bow to Mecca.  That's what Morning Devotions is for, and if you haven't noticed, it isn't mandatory.  The day it becomes mandatory is the day you see the outstanding Allanaki playerbase downsize tremendously.  I'd rather see players out there plotting than whiling their time away giving prayer to a "god-king" which, for all we know, doesn't even exist!

Though so many of you complain that the city-state rulers aren't making appearances or aren't developing themselves into a classified religion, I wonder if you've considered that maybe there is a reason behind this.  Maybe they don't want to!

There is enough religion imposed upon us in the real world, I would much prefer to see religion remain as it currently is in game: toned down.

People are going to believe things, those things don't have to be true or widely believed.  There are apparently hundreds of Elvis sightings every year, despite the fact that even if Elvis had faked his death he would probably be dead by now anyway.  People seeing, being abducted and badly treated by aliens seems to happen all the time, while abductions by the fair folk have almost completely stopped . . . are the aliens secretly exterminating the elves?  Nobody knows!


When we talk about religion we usually mean a more organized set of beliefs combined with an established social structure.  The worship of the God-Kings is probably one of the few large-scale organized religious systems in the Known World, but it is one that doesn't exclude other beliefs.  You do see some people, occasionally even PCs, praying at the west gate or at the temple over by the Arena.  Since Tektolnes is likely very skilled at the Way, he might even hear some of these prayers.  He probably isn't going to do anything about your petty requests, but that doesn't stop people in our world from praying, buying lottery tickets, or writing letters to Oprah (and other rich people) asking for money.  It is a long shot, but it doesn't hurt to try.


There are also religious beliefs that are less organized and more personal, but it is difficult to tell if they should be classified as religion, superstition, or something else.

Belief in spirits and ghosts is often brushed off as superstition, but can have religious elements to it.  Christianity doesn't really have a place for ghosts, each sect has pretty solid ideas on what is supposed to happen to a soul after death, and wandering around on Earth generally isn't part of the game plan -- but still stories of ghosts and hauntings persist in Christian dominated societies.  They usually get brushed off as merely being imagination, or possibly demon activity in some denominations, but Christianity never managed to completely wipe out acceptance of ghosts.  Some cultures revere their ancestors and may even pray to them for help.  Some cultures treat the dead with a great deal of pomp and ceremony not because dead people are great, but because if the dead aren't placated with proper respect and offerings they can become the Angry dead, the Restless dead, or even the Hungry dead, and nobody wants angry, hungry ghosts wandering around.  (Some God-King worship may be similar.  You may attend morning devotions or pray in a temple once a week not because you worship and adore Tektolenes, but because you are trying to placate Him and keep His terrible eye off of you).  To keep the spirits off your back you might keep a little altar to the ancestors or to people you've murdered, all it needs is a little shelf with some shiny trinkets, and every now and then (at least once a year) you do something like putting out food and drink (a few crumbs and a couple drops of wine may be sufficient since they don't really eat the food, but rather eat the essence of food, the memory of food, or something like that), burning a candle, burning some incense, etc.  Little rituals designed to keep the dead on your side, or at least dormant.


An extension of this is that not only humans have spirits you have to worry about, but so do animals, plants, tools, rocks, moons, and practically everything else.  That's a lot of spirits.   Individually their power to affect the material world is very small, but you don't want to get them riled up.  

A hunter might pay respect to the prey, perhaps thanking them for their sacrifice, making sure to use every possible part of the carcass, eating the heart raw while it is still warm, or some other small ceremonial act.  There will be stories of bad things that happened to disrespectful hunters: a scrab hunter that was only interested in shells was known to slaughter as many scrabs as he could find and leave everything rotting on the sands except the shell, one day they found him dead in the sands, completely skinned but with no other damaged to indicated what killed him; a southerner came up to hunt Duskhorn in the breeding season, killing not just bucks but also the does and colts with impunity, after several weeks his packs were full and he was ready to go back south, the next morning his body was found just off the road, he was stone dead with a look of horror on his face but appeared to be uninjured and none of his possessions had been stolen.  

You might believe that if you are kind to trees you will never be truly lost in the forest.  If you do not respect the forest the thornbush will come for you.  You might pay respect to plants by ensuring that you never take enough leaves to kill the plant outright.  You might dig up a root to eat, but then take a moment to bury one of the plant's seeds in the resulting hole so that its line continues.

You don't have to worry just about people, plants and animals, but also inanimate things.  You might believe that any tool that goes unused for 3 years will seek blood.  A new blade that has been used to kill a man (a noble, a Templar, an elf, etc) will want to taste that kind of blood again and again.  Some blades may be "hungry" and once it has been drawn someone has to die before it can be safely sheathed again.  Your car has a personality and needs to be loved or it acts up.  A carver may believe that when he carves a stone he isn't imposing his will on it but is actually releasing a shape that was always there, a shape that wanted to be seen -- you don't decide what you want to carve, instead you try to discover what the stone wants to be.  You may plead with your shaft straightener not to break this shaft, or tell the wood itself how lovely it would be to fly around as an arrow, making the tools and materials "partners" in your work.  In the same vein you may curse at your tools or materials if your crafting attempt is ruined, making them share the blame and giving the impression that you think the stone shattered just to spite you.

Then there are spirits that are tied to locations rather than single objects.  Nature spirits that were never specific living things may be thought to inhabit certain valleys, oases, caves or other places.  It isn't a ghost, it is just a presence.  If you are doing something that the spirit of the valley approves of it may help you in small ways or ignore you, but if you are doing something that it disapproves of it will hinder you in small ways.  To the spirit of the oasis elves, mantis, and humans all look about the same as each other and as the other animals that come to drink, it is only when they try to change the oasis that they attract special attention.

An elementalist with strong animistic beliefs might believe that his magick also works through spirits.  Spirits of the air blow things around, spirits of fire set things aflame, and the only thing special about the elementalist is that he can communicate with and command these spirits to some degree.  Spells that appear to create objects really just give the spirits physical form for a time, a novelty that they usually enjoy.  They usually aren't dealing with a big, god-like spirit, but the little spirits that inhabit manifestations of their element in the material plane.  They may or may not believe that there is a personality, a spirit of all Wind called Whira, but if they think there is you'd have to be pretty cocky to try to command THE Spirit of the Wind.  Far better to deal with the little air spirits, and not attract the attention of larger forces.

Beliefs like these would fill the same mental niche as religion, but they do it on a personal level, with requiring big investments building temples and training the priesthood.  These kinds of beliefs are not outlawed, they don't conflict with the agendas of the God-Kings.  They are not evangelized, instead they are quietly passed on to be accepted or rejected as mere superstition.  If your neighbour is having a run of bad luck, and you figure it is because his house spirits are mad at him because he won't do the simple little things to appease them, well, that isn't your problem  -- you certainly don't feel compelled to Save him from his folly.


Documentation isn't necessary.  These beliefs have been handed down informally since before there were cities, when each tribe had its own set of beliefs.  Over the ages those beliefs have mutated, combined, been forgotten, and generally mangled in ways their ancestors would never have expected.  In modern times you would pick up most of these beliefs from your family as you are growing up, and to a lesser extent from your friends and colleagues.  That means that every family, perhaps every individual, will have their own unique matrix of superstitions that they try to live by.  It has religious elements, but is an extremely disorganized form of religion.  Basically, your character can have whatever beliefs you want him to have.


Angela Christine

lots of great ideas, AC. I had one character who was aware of the spirits in the wild, but believed that in the city-state the god-kings pushed them all away.

He died early, though. :(

I'll have to do something like that again.

I recall a templar a while back that was a bit on the Zealot side and would actually go to the gates at morning devotions to conduct them. How many templars in the south do that? Frankly I think all of them should and I would love it more if they would drag some of the PC populace there with them. I'm not saying that the populace should truly feel in their souls that they are embraced by the mighty dragon's shadow, but the PC templars damn well should, and they should force other PC's to feel that embrace always and by force if necessary.

Give me a Templar in the south who is absolutedly blinded by Faithful Devotion and Worship of the God King beyond reason and I will be impressed to the 9's. Not to go into detail, but look how they get power??? That said how could you not be the speaker box for Tek??? He is the only reason you are as cool as you are, otherwise you are just some Jerk in fancy Robe.

But there should be all sorts of mixed emotions on religion in the south. Elementalists are praying to their own gods, some pray to Tek, some are just faithless bastards.

It would also invoke more separation of the cities and much more solid feel of oppression in Allanak.

It should not be that way in the north however. It doesn't fit their style or their power structure. That said however, it would seem to me that Tuluki's have a much nicer life in the bunny hugging north. And while they do not sit at the base of a mighty steal statue to show outward worship, would be deeply spiritual people and thank all their good fortune to his Light Muk Utep and all their ill fortune as failing him.

Think about it. Magick is outlawed and there is nothing else to worship in the north and life is pretty fat and good. Unless you make up a tree god, or are an elf, Muk is it.

Quote from: "sarahjc"Think about it. Magick is outlawed and there is nothing else to worship in the north and life is pretty fat and good.

WRONG.

The following has nothing to do with how much Tuluk sucks.

I would like to see religion played up in Zalanthas.  The people of Zalanthas will have beliefs.  They are certainly not too busy trying to survive to think about things such as creation, the universe, and why their lives are so miserable, because using real life history as a parallel, living a life that is brutal, nasty, and short in no way precludes religious beliefs.  Just look at the Dark Ages.  Hell, look at just about any time period in the history of the world.

The templarate can not effectively suppress and stamp out religious cults if they don't have a competing dogma of their own.  They can try, but it won't work very well.  If a commoner is only allowed to worship the God-King, then they may very well worship the God-King.  But if they don't know how to worship the God-King, then they will either fill in the blanks on their own, or figure out something else to worship, legal or not.

I agree to ERS to an extent.  I wish God King worship, especially in Allanak, was more encouraged and defined.  The biggest problem with religion in Armageddon is that it is very easy to fall into the trap of imitating real life religion.  Real life religion and religion in Allanak could not be more different.  

In Allanak, God King is unquestionably apart of your lives in more ways then just spiritual.  The God King is your provider of food, water, and shelter.  Without him, you die.  Period.  End of story.  Even your lowliest of 'rinth rat is going to recognize that even his meager little home exists only by the grace of the Highlord.

Even more important is that the Highlord is not a terribly spiritually demanding person.  Loyalty and shows of loyalty to the Highlord is the highest virtue.  Burnt offerings are likely not terribly impressive, while donations of 'sid are.  I could even see quasi-bribery being a deeply ingrained part of Allanaki religion.  Imagine you are a commoner in Allanak making a fair living.  You are not rich, but you are not starving.  Maybe you squirrel away a few 'sid each month to make a 'donation' to a templar you see often.  You are basically donating the money to the state/church while at the same time perhaps buying a little good will from a templar.

Whatever the case, I think Allanak High King worship could use a little more fleshing out.

Quote from: "Rindan"I agree to ERS to an extent.  I wish God King worship, especially in Allanak, was more encouraged and defined.  

Me too, people will think twice if they feel the presence of the God Kings before they want to get in their black book.

It's fun to make up beliefs that are linked to everyday life, but that seems lonely.